Chalk Stream Abstraction

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Friday 1st February 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

The House does not need to be told that my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker) is passionate about this issue, and it is a passion that I share. I compliment him on his eloquence and look forward to addressing some of his points, but, more importantly, to being judged by my Department’s actions as we seek to resolve these issues.

My hon. Friend will know that I have form on this issue. I cut my political teeth trying to address over-abstraction in a chalk stream, the River Pang, which I am lucky enough to have flowing through my farm. I was a councillor at the time and I was asked to set up an environmental body that brought together local authorities, parishes, the local community, Thames Water, and the then National Rivers Authority, to see what could be done to improve the habitat around the river, to achieve better flows and to protect the environment. It was a passion that I had then over 20 years ago, and it is one that I now bring to this job as I seek to do precisely what he wants, which is to see rivers such as the River Pang and the ones he described in his part of the world restored to health.

One of the trends in conservation now is something that some people thought would never happen, and that is when green non-governmental organisations work with business to achieve a result that both desire. One of the best partnerships that I have come across in my job is the one between WWF and HSBC. Their Rivers on the Edge campaign seeks to restore chalk streams and is doing great work, and I feel both held to account by it but also passionately involved in making sure that it works.

My hon. Friend rightly says that our water resources are under pressure from development and a growing population, changes in lifestyle and changes in the climate, but there have been a number of changes in recent years that may just put us more in the right direction. One of them is the clear driver towards sustainable development. To me, that means developers having to prove as part of the planning process that what they are doing will at the very least have a minimal impact on the environment. In terms of water usage, that includes the demand end of the water supply in the home right through to the impact on the environment. That is key in terms of our catchment approach to river management.

At one level, I come before the House and say that we want to restore the health of these rivers because we have to comply with the water framework directive. But what a paucity of ambition that would be if it were the sum total of what we seek to do. We want to restore the health of these rivers because we want to restore them. They are, as my hon. Friend describes, part of our culture, part of our heritage. He described them as a divine gift, but whatever hon. Members believe, they are something that this country has and if we believe in good stewardship of our natural resources he is absolutely right: we must turn around these failing rivers and make them flow again and be vibrant environmental features for future generations.

There is a problem in Buckinghamshire and Hertfordshire. Public water supplies come predominantly from the chalk groundwater—the same groundwater that flows through our chalk streams. Many of our chalk streams are in a poor state, and restoring flows is essential to increasing the diversity of plant, invertebrate and fish species found in those rivers.

My hon. Friend had some hard words for the Environment Agency. I am not complacent; I am not saying that how Government approach the issue has always been right. However, we do need to balance that argument with what is happening.

[Mr Charles Walker]

I shall give the Minister a specific example. As we speak, the River Mimram is being downgraded from “over-abstracted” to “over-licensed”. It is clearly over-abstracted. May I ask the Minister to look into that redesignation and come back to the House or write to me in response?

[Richard Benyon]

I certainly will. I have had my ear bent about the Mimram in the past, and I will make sure that I respond to that specific point.

The Environment Agency is working closely with local groups and environmental bodies to carry out habitat restoration to improve chalk streams. All rivers have targeted plans, actions and resources to remedy the poor conditions, so that local people can tell whether or not we are achieving what we set out to do.

Just over a year ago, we published our water White Paper, which set out a vision for a resilient and sustainable water industry and for future reform of the abstraction regime. We know that the current system is not flexible enough to cope with the challenges of climate change and the increased demand from a growing population, which my hon. Friend so eloquently described. The condition of our chalk rivers acutely highlights that.

The new system needs to be sustainable, resilient and ensure that water remains available to support growth, supply households and protect the environment. Reforming the regime is complex in both economic and environmental terms. Tackling over-abstraction and the damage that it causes is a priority, but we need to recognise that the water is being abstracted for uses that are critical to the operation of businesses and for households.

[Mr Walker]

Of course water is required by industry and households; that is why we need to build more reservoirs. We had the chance to build a major reservoir at Abingdon, but that project seems to have fallen by the wayside. We must start building major reservoirs in the east and south-east; it is the only environmentally responsible thing to do.

[Richard Benyon]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State recently went to the Abberton reservoir in East Anglia. It has just been enlarged by a vast percentage of its original size by Northumbrian Water, which owns the water company in that area. There is extra capacity there, but I entirely agree with my hon. Friend.

Over generations, we have decided that the cheapest way to provide water for homes and businesses is to suck it out of the ground. That is how we have kept bills low for households and businesses. Successive Governments have wished, perfectly reasonably, to keep water bills low. We continue to have that ambition, but we also have environmental ambitions. It is a question of whether we have the balance right, and I am prepared to concede that we do not. I urge my hon. Friend to read our White Paper to see how we set out the importance of a resilient water industry and sector. That will become clear as we develop the issue not only in the water Bill, but in other measures that do not need legislation.

Reforming the abstraction regime is complex, in both economic and environmental terms. Tackling over-abstraction and the damage that it causes is a priority. However, any change that we make will affect people’s livelihoods, so it is important that we take time to get the reform right and work with abstractors to understand and minimise the potential impacts. That is why we aim to legislate for that early in the next Parliament, rather than including specific abstraction measures in the water Bill that we hope will go through Parliament in the next Session. The key point is that we can start to address, without legislation, my hon. Friend’s concerns in many areas.

We are working closely with our stakeholders to understand the potential impacts of reform, from our national advisory group to the people on the ground who actually use the water. Through the year, we will be starting a number of dialogues with different groups, using social and digital media, in the run-up to our formal consultation at the end of the year, so that everyone who shares our passion for these rivers can be involved in this process.

Right now, we are tackling over-abstraction. Abstraction reform is only part of the story. We are able to take action to tackle the kind of abstraction that is damaging our rivers, and we want to make better use of the tools we already have. The Environment Agency has reviewed thousands of licences and changed many of the most damaging. Through the restoring sustainable abstraction process, the agency is working closely with water companies—the largest abstractors in Buckinghamshire and Hertfordshire—to improve flows in these rivers. Their work on restoring sustainable abstraction, together with catchment-scale investigations to identify these and other issues, such as diffuse pollution, will give us early notice of the issues we need to tackle in the next river basin management plans, starting in 2015, when there may well be a requirement for new upstream water storage, such as reservoirs.

[Mr Walker]

Will my hon. Friend join me in congratulating my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan) and my hon. Friend the Member for North East Hertfordshire (Oliver Heald) on all the work they have done in support of local chalk streams, and my hon. Friend the Member for Meon Valley (George Hollingbery), who is chairman of the all-party angling group, on his efforts?

[Richard Benyon]

This House is full of people with a real passion for these environments. As the MP for a constituency that contains a number of chalk streams, I know about the leadership that has been given over many years by the hon. Members my hon. Friend mentions, and by others who are no longer in this House. He referred to Martin Salter, a former colleague on the Labour Benches, whose work with the Angling Trust is very important in raising these matters. I join my hon. Friend in paying tribute to our colleagues who campaign on this.

We want water companies to begin to prepare new water resources management plans for consultation in spring this year. We want them to include in those plans actions to address sustainable reductions where investigations have shown that these are needed or likely to be needed. Last year we published guiding principles that can be used by the Environment Agency to assess whether abstractors are causing serious damage to water bodies. This will enable the agency to use powers to modify the most damaging abstraction licences without the need to pay compensation. This is a major change and a major step forward.

We are also developing better tools and incentives to help water companies to manage their abstractions sustainably. We are working with Ofwat on something that we are calling our abstraction incentive mechanism, which was developed with WWF and several others, and which will encourage water companies to abstract their water from more sustainable sources. This is about making an environmental evaluation as to whether water abstraction is damaging or less damaging in terms of where it occurs. I commend it as one of the measures that we are taking in the next periodic price review process which will start to address the problems that my hon. Friend describes. We are also working with the Environment Agency and Ofwat to change how water companies are funded for changes to damaging abstraction licences. This offers us a real opportunity for a way forward.

I have had time to touch on only some of the measures that we are taking. There are other, more technical, means that I am happy to discuss with my hon. Friend and the all-party group. I am constantly trying to find new and better ways to make sure that over the next few years we reverse the decline in these extraordinary ecosystems. We are not just talking about the channel where the river flows through, beautiful though that is; rich in habitat, when healthy, though it is; and wonderful though it is for people like my hon. Friend and I who enjoy fishing. We are also talking about the whole catchment —the whole environment of the valley that the river flows through. It is absolutely vital that we in the Government, with voluntary bodies, local authorities, and, most importantly, water companies and other abstractors, work towards a solution in which these extraordinary habitats are restored to how they justly should be, so that people can come from all over the world to see a really special environmental feature.

Question put and agreed to.

Lake District and Yorkshire Dales National Parks

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Tuesday 29th January 2013 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

Today I am announcing a public inquiry to hear representations to the variation orders to extend the Lake District and Yorkshire Dales national parks, including objections from six local authorities.

The National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949 requires Natural England to consider from time to time what areas there are in England that meet the criteria for national park status, and whether it is especially desirable that such areas should be designated. In November 2011 Natural England issued variation orders to extend the boundaries of the Lake District and the Yorkshire Dales national parks. The orders were submitted to the DEFRA Secretary of State in January 2012.

Over 3,000 objections, representations or expressions of support were received in response to the proposals, including objections from five local authorities. It is a statutory requirement that a public inquiry is held if at least one local authority with land in a proposed extension raises an objection to a relevant variation order. I have therefore commissioned a public inquiry into the recommended boundary changes and an inspector from the Planning Inspectorate has been appointed to conduct the inquiry.

As a first step, a pre-inquiry meeting will be held in early March with the inquiry itself expected to open in early June; lasting approximately four weeks. Following the inquiry the inspector will make recommendations to the Secretary of State as to whether he believes the proposed extensions meet the designation criteria as set out in the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949.

Once the Secretary of State has received the inspector’s report he will then take a decision as to whether the case for designation has been made and he will either confirm the variation orders (with or without modifications) or reject them.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Thursday 24th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)]

2. What assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the response to the recent floods.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

The Government are grateful for the response from our front-line emergency services, which were deployed around the clock, including during public holidays. The staff of the fire, ambulance, police and other rescue services, local authorities, the Environment Agency, the voluntary sector, and local communities worked tirelessly in response to the floods. The Flood Forecasting Centre consistently provided high-quality forecasting and was able to predict risks accurately, which enabled timely action to be taken on the ground.

[Sheryll Murray]

I thank my hon. Friend for the interest he took in the flooding that occurred in my constituency over the two weekends prior to the Christmas break. How can he best help communities in my constituency in the aftermath of the floods?

[Richard Benyon]

Like other hon. Members, my hon. Friend contacted me during those severe floods and kept me informed. I was able to use the information she gave me in my discussions with the Environment Agency and others, and I am coming down to see for myself the issues in her constituency in the near future. We are better prepared for flooding events than ever before, but that does not mean we are in any way complacent. We learn from every flooding event, and I assure her and her constituents that we will learn and that if improvements can be made, they will be made. I will make sure that we are working across government to achieve the results that her constituents deserve.

[Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)]

On 26 November, the Secretary of State told the House that he would consider targeted emergency funding for communities affected by flooding, such as those in my constituency. Will the Minister tell the House what he has decided to do?

[Richard Benyon]

The hon. Lady will be aware that a long-established scheme, the Bellwin scheme, is there to assist local authorities when their recovery costs rise above a particular threshold. I understand that a number of authorities got some funding over 2012 and some did not. I want to work with her and others to ensure that where we can help, we are doing so, and that there is a co-ordinated response to these devastating flood incidents. Nearly 8,000 properties were flooded in 2012, and we want to make sure we are doing everything we can to help them.

[Mr Nick Gibb (Bognor Regis and Littlehampton) (Con)]

Hundreds of homes were badly flooded in my constituency last June, following a freak 36-hour rainstorm. Thousands of my constituents now face problems with flood insurance; I am told of excesses in the tens of thousands of pounds. May I emphasise to my hon. Friend, in his negotiations with the insurance industry and others, the importance to my constituents of finding a replacement for the flood insurance statement of principles as a matter of urgency?

[Richard Benyon]

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend, and I am coming down to his constituency to hear the concerns of his constituents. I can assure him that we want to achieve something better than the statement of principles, which does not cover all properties and has no element that affects affordability. We recognise that there are real concerns about this, including in my constituency, where insurance premiums are being hiked dramatically. We want to protect those on low incomes who are at flood risk.

[Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)]

The statement of principles runs out in June 2013. The Association of British Insurers considers the negotiations with the Government to be at crisis point and estimates that 200,000 people will be without insurance. What do I say to my constituents who are coming to my surgery asking me what they should do about insurance? This is in absolute disarray.

[Richard Benyon]

I entirely reject the idea that our talks with the ABI are at crisis point—nothing could be more different; they are progressing at a very high tempo. We are negotiating with the ABI, with meetings happening on a seemingly daily basis and at the highest level in government. We want to achieve something that is better than the previous Government negotiated with the industry. We are dealing with large international financial institutions. We want to get this right for the taxpayer and those at flood risk, and we are working hard to achieve that.

[Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon) (Con)]

Six communities in my constituency were flooded three times in 2012—in July, November and December—and people there are naturally desperate about what to do. I realise that there is no money, because of our high-spending predecessors, but can the Minister find any extra resources to put into flood defence and prevention schemes to help my constituents cope with what may happen in the future?

[Richard Benyon]

I am glad to inform my hon. Friend that we are spending a lot of money—£2.3 billion of taxpayers’ money—on what the Government should be doing, which is building flood defences. In addition, we are looking carefully to ensure that we are supporting all the relevant agencies, such as the Environment Agency, to ensure that watercourses are flowing and that we are addressing all the factors that contribute to flooding. I entirely understand the desperation that his constituents must feel as a result of repeat flooding events, and we are working hard to deal with those.

[Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con)]

3. How many properties were protected from the recent flooding by flood defence schemes.

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[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

Constructive discussions with the Association of British Insurers on behalf of their members and with others about the future of flood insurance continue at the highest levels of government. A range of options are on the table and no final decisions have been taken. We need a solution that ensures affordable insurance bills for those at flood risk but does not place unsustainable costs on wider policyholders and the taxpayer.

[Martin Vickers]

The Minister will be aware that many residents of Cleethorpes and other towns live in areas that are designated as high risk by virtue of their postcode as a result of Environment Agency mapping even though they might not have flooded for 50 years or more. Will he take on board those concerns and bear them in mind in his negotiations with the insurers?

[Richard Benyon]

I entirely understand that frustration, but the Environment Agency now provides mapping down to a 50 metre by 50 metre square, which is a lot more accurate than using postcodes. Insurers sometimes take different approaches to assessing flood risk and, in addition to Environment Agency data, most companies will use past claims history. I urge my hon. Friend and his constituents to use their local Environment Agency office, which is, I think, in Lincoln, as it can provide details of individual properties that are at risk. That can be extremely useful for householders in their negotiations with an insurer.

[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

I have absolutely no doubt that the Minister is working very hard to strike a deal with the ABI. However, the same answer was given at the last Environment, Food and Rural Affairs questions pre-Christmas. Will the Minister update the House on what real progress has been made since then and on what the sticking points are?

[Richard Benyon]

I would love to be able to announce that a deal had been reached. As I have said before, I am afraid that we cannot negotiate these issues on the Floor of the House. They are sensitive—and market sensitive, too—and we want to ensure that when we come to the House we have a rock-solid case that is watertight and that will last for a long time. I know that this matter is a great concern to the hon. Gentleman’s constituents and I am delighted that preparatory work has started on the flood scheme in Morpeth. The real comfort will not come, however, until his constituents have the assurance they need on insurance.

[Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)]

How much does the Minister think premiums will rise by next year if he is not able to reach agreement with the insurance industry?

[Richard Benyon]

The real problem is that premiums have been rising pretty dramatically while the statement of principles has been in place. There is no affordability element to the statement of principles. We want to protect those on low incomes in flood-risk areas, and we think we have a method of doing that. We are at an advanced stage in negotiations; I will come to the House shortly, I hope, with details.

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[Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

7. When he last discussed with the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government the use of green fields for urban development.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

In the normal course of business, I have regular discussions with ministerial counterparts in the Department for Communities and Local Government about a range of planning issues. The national planning policy framework sets out the Government’s approach to encouraging sustainable development and provides strong protection for the countryside. It is for planning authorities to consider how best to optimise development for economic growth, and such considerations will include green fields in their areas.

[Sir Bob Russell]

I recognise what the Minister has just said, but it does not appear to be what the planning Minister, the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, the hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles), is saying. Will this Minister give me an assurance that green fields are an important feature surrounding our towns, and that brownfield sites must be developed before any of those green fields are built on?

[Richard Benyon]

I refer my hon. Friend to the excellent national planning policy framework, which DEFRA was closely involved in drawing up. The requirement to reuse land previously developed—brownfield land—is contained in paragraph 111. The best and most versatile land is also protected—national parks, areas of outstanding natural beauty and, importantly for my hon. Friend, greenbelt land as well.

[John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab)]

If a council decides to build all its housing inside the village and town envelopes, rather than on green fields used for farming, and a developer appeals to the Government, who is the Minister’s inspector going to back?

[Richard Benyon]

The hon. Gentleman seems to ask me to conjecture on individual planning decisions. We have the national policy. All our local authorities will have their own policies. Where those policies are found to have been breached, the planning inspector will presumably point to that. We can go around the country and see some daft developments that have taken place over the decades. Too many houses have been built on floodplains or have been badly sited around small and large communities. We can all point to that. That is why a new planning policy which protects the countryside and green fields is being taken forward.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

8. What steps his Department is taking to deal with Schmallenberg virus.

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[George Hollingbery (Meon Valley) (Con)]

12. What progress he has made on creating long-term sustainability in the fishing industry.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

We are making good progress towards sustainable fisheries. We secured an excellent, science-led result in the annual fisheries negotiations, setting sustainable fishing opportunities for 2013. We are negotiating genuine reforms of the broken common fisheries policy to eliminate discards, require sustainable fishing rates, and introduce regionalised management. We are working to address over-capacity issues within the English fleet and supporting market-led initiatives to help fishermen to get the best return for their catch.

[George Hollingbery]

The Minister will be unsurprised to know that I have a question about recreational sea angling. What work has the Department undertaken to assess the importance of this sector to the creation of sustainable fishing, and thus to fishing communities?

[Richard Benyon]

I am very grateful for the co-operation of recreational sea anglers in a project that we ran last year to find out how many there are, their contribution to the local coastal economy, what they are targeting, and their huge value in being the eyes and ears of the natural environment. Recreational sea angling is a key part of our policy to support coastal communities and the marine environment.

[Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)]

Does the Minister agree that the disgraceful over-fishing of mackerel by Iceland, leading to the Marine Stewardship Council removing mackerel from the list of sustainable fish, exposes the folly of the idea of repatriation of fisheries policies?

[Richard Benyon]

The Marine Stewardship Council has not delisted mackerel; another organisation downgraded it. It is certainly still right to buy British-landed mackerel—it is still a sustainable stock—but, as the right hon. Gentleman will know, we have serious worries about the activities of the Faroe Islands and Iceland in declaring a unilateral total allowable catch and not being willing to negotiate. We are working very hard to try to bring them back to the table, and we will use every measure we can. This is the most important stock for the United Kingdom industry, and most of all we want to protect it for the future.

[Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

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[Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)]

T4. What assessment has been made of the effectiveness of the national wildlife crime unit?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

We believe it is a valuable tool in the fight against wildlife crime, not only domestically but internationally, where there is great and worrying evidence of large-scale organised criminality that is affecting the survival chances of some of the most iconic species. I am delighted that we, along with the Home Office, have been able to continue the funding of the unit and we hope that it will continue its great work.

[Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab)]

T5. Last year the Secretary of State said that there would not be a Commons vote on repealing the Hunting Act 2004. Will he reassure the overwhelming majority of the British public who support retention of the Act that there will be no vote at any time in this Parliament?

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[Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)]

At last week’s fisheries talks, the Scottish pelagic fleet took a 15% cut in mackerel quota, in line with scientific advice, to compensate for the overfishing of Iceland and the Faroes. What action will the Minister now press the European Commission to take, and when can we expect to see it?

[Richard Benyon]

I had a meeting with the pelagic sector yesterday, at which I assured it that we would take every measure that we possibly could. The hon. Lady is absolutely right that the UK fleet has done the right thing despite the fact that the advice of the International Council for the Exploration of the Sea was based on the activities of countries such as Iceland and the Faroes. I am absolutely with her, and we will do our best next week in Brussels to ensure that the Commission understands how important the matter is to Britain.

[Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)]

The second wave of city deal bids offers great potential to rural communities in wider areas. Has the Minister seen the Swindon and Wiltshire city deal bid so that he might consider whether that partnership offers a blueprint for extending the benefits of city deals into neighbouring rural economies?

[Richard Benyon]

I am really impressed with what is happening in Swindon and Wiltshire, and I want to use it as a model around the country. I am happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss it further.

[Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)]

T9. Will the Minister confirm that legislation to ban wild animals in circuses will be included in the next Queen’s Speech, or can we expect more delays on that important animal welfare issue?

Wild Animals in Circuses Bill

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Friday 18th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I thank the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh), who has the ability to work something acerbic into any conversation and sometimes—to put it in the context of this debate—to play the clown when it comes to what has actually happened and to what our commitment in DEFRA is.

I fully appreciate how important the issue of the use of wild animals in circuses is, not only to this House, as has been said, but to the wider public. I congratulate the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) on bringing the issue to the fore once again. The protection of the welfare of performing wild animals in circuses is a matter that the Government take very seriously and we have pledged to take tough, prompt action to address it. The Government have already announced that they will be seeking to introduce primary legislation to ban the use of wild animals in travelling circuses. The Government’s policy in this area was set out in two written ministerial statements, on 1 March 2012 and 12 July 2012. We further announced on 12 July that we would seek to publish draft legislation this Session for pre-legislative scrutiny that would outline our proposals for a ban. That position has not changed. I am happy to assure the hon. Gentleman that DEFRA is working on a draft Bill and we firmly intend to publish it for parliamentary scrutiny in this Session.

[Thomas Docherty]

Just so I know that my ears did not deceive me—as he is a Conservative Minister, I have a great deal of trust in his word—will the Minister confirm that his Department will introduce the draft Bill for scrutiny in this Session, rather than just “seeking” to introduce it?

[Richard Benyon]

I will repeat what I said: I am happy to assure the hon. Gentleman that we firmly intend to publish the draft Bill for parliamentary scrutiny in the current Session. The final timetable for legislation will be for Parliament to decide. It inevitably takes some time to reach a position where we can present a draft Bill that does the intended job and is robust against potential legal challenge.

[Mary Creagh]

Will the Minister provide us with some sort of timetable or calendar? When does he think this will happen—February or March? The Session ends in April. Secondly, will he explain why we need pre-legislative scrutiny, given that there are only three dozen animals in this position left in the country, and that this issue has been debated over and over again ad nauseam by Parliament for the last two years?

[Richard Benyon]

We want to make sure that the legislation is robust, so it survives any challenge from any source. This Bill’s promoter, the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife, sits on the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, which has a good record of pre-legislative scrutiny. I think that a cursory look at what we are proposing will allow the Bill speedy passage and ensure that it then survives and is effective at achieving what we want it to achieve.

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

As the Minister will know, when he had our debate some 14 months ago, we did not press the motion to the vote because we were under the clear impression that the Government were going to go away and start working on proposals for a ban. What has happened in those 14 months—between then and now—to justify the Minister telling us that he still has to work on draft legislation to bring before the House? Has not that work already been done over the last year or so?

[Richard Benyon]

A lot of work has been carried out. As I said earlier, we want to make sure that the legislation is effective. A number of challenges could be made against it if it fails to cover all the bases. I assure the hon. Lady that it is our full intention to see a ban come in that will be effective at dealing with the small number of animals that remain and that deals with the possibility of travelling circuses or new circuses wanting to set up in this country. I will come on to explain what the Government have been doing in the meantime to bring in a rigorous licensing system that will be of comfort to the hon. Lady.

[Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)]

I warmly welcome the Government’s announcement that they have the clear intention to legislate for a ban on wild animals in circuses. Does the Minister appreciate that he will have very strong Liberal Democrat support within the coalition for such legislation to be brought forward in this Parliament? That is what I think all Members and our many supporters want.

[Richard Benyon]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I think there is a coalition of the whole House on this legislation, and that the Government and all of us will be able to be proud of it.

There is some justification for saying that there have been plenty of opportunities to introduce this legislation over previous decades and before, so let us look at what we are proposing. All Members will appreciate what it involves when they realise that the legislation will not only be robust, but will be something of which we can all be proud.

[Mary Creagh]

I congratulate the Minister on weaving a silk purse out of a proverbial sow’s ear. Will he confirm that if he introduces a Bill for pre-legislative scrutiny in this Session, it will not actually be scrutinised until the parliamentary Session of 2014 and could then run out of time in the final year of this Parliament?

[Richard Benyon]

No, I think this will become law in the next Session, subject to the vagaries of the House’s opinions on the wording of the Bill—another reason why we want pre-legislative scrutiny. The hon. Lady can be absolutely assured that we want to get this measure on the statute book as early as possible; we do not want the issue continuing into future Parliaments. We want to make sure that it gets Royal Assent as soon as possible.

[Thomas Docherty]

Further to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh), let me give the Minister this guarantee. If the Department publishes the Bill prior to the end of February, the EFRA Select Committee will make every effort possible to scrutinise it this Session. If the Minister can use his generosity and commitment to make that happen, we will do our bit in the Select Committee.

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[Richard Benyon]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, and I will pass his assurance on to officials and ministerial colleagues who have oversight of this issue.

The Government have already introduced new licensing regulations, as was promised in July, and these will come into force on 20 January—this Sunday. From Sunday, it will be an offence to operate a travelling circus with wild animals in England without a valid licence. The regulations will ensure that if a travelling circus continues to use wild animals, it will be subject to regular inspections to check that it is complying with strict welfare standards. The licensing regime is tough, and inspection will be rigorous. It goes without saying that the safeguards of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 against cruelty continue unabated.

I thank the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife for his efforts, but let me repeat that DEFRA is working on a draft Bill to be published and presented for parliamentary scrutiny in the current Session. Let me also repeat that we want to ensure that the Bill is robust, will do what it sets out to do, and will not be vulnerable to successful legal challenge.

The Government fully recognise that—as has been mentioned today—the use of wild animals in travelling circuses generates significant public and parliamentary interest. In 2009, when DEFRA consulted on the question of a ban, 94.5% of the 10,000 respondents supported it. Since the start of the current Parliament, DEFRA has handled more than 120 parliamentary questions and 16,500 items of correspondence on the subject of wild animals in travelling circuses. There have been five debates in Parliament—including two on the licensing regulations in October 2012—supplemented by five early-day motions with a total of 223 signatures. Many Members have called for a ban, and during the Backbench Business Committee debate on 23 June 2011, which was mentioned earlier, the House agreed on a motion directing the Government to introduce a ban on the use of wild animals in travelling circuses.

It should be borne in mind, however, that a ban introduced solely on welfare grounds might be vulnerable to successful legal challenge. The Radford report on the welfare of wild animals in travelling circuses, which was commissioned, accepted and published by the last Government in 2007, concluded that there was insufficient evidence to ban the use of wild animals in travelling circuses on welfare grounds. In particular, Radford concluded that there was little evidence to demonstrate that the welfare of animals in circuses was any better or worse than in any other captive environment. We respect that piece of research and the people who carried it out, but I think that Parliament has expressed a clear opinion that reflects opinions in the country at large, and that is what is guiding our actions now.

I hate to use cheap clichés such as the one about the elephant in the room, but it must be said that the recent high-profile court case focusing on allegations of cruelty to Anne, a circus elephant, has rekindled legitimate public interest and concern about the treatment of wild animals in travelling circuses. However, the outcome of that case is not in itself an indicator of endemic or systematic failure to promote welfare in travelling circuses. It would simply not be responsible to proceed with a ban without being confident that we would be safe from legal challenge. I think we are now approaching a point at which we know how to deal with the issue. In any case, the new licensing regulations will ensure that good welfare standards are in place for any circus that wants to use wild animals in the short term before the ban comes into force.

The publicly available Radford report summarised the position by pointing out that the scientific evidence that welfare is being compromised is not compelling; that section 12 of the Animal Welfare Act permits only legislation to “promote animal welfare”; that banning on welfare grounds would be disproportionate in the absence of evidence that welfare was compromised; and that an outright ban might be beyond the powers in section 12 anyway, even if the welfare case were made out. Radford wrote that

“it is submitted that to introduce a ban on the use of any type of non-domesticated animal presently in use by circuses in the United Kingdom…by way of a Regulation made under the authority of section 12 of the Animal Welfare Act would be vulnerable to legal challenge.”

[Mary Creagh]

When he was agriculture Minister, the right hon. Member for South East Cambridgeshire (Sir James Paice) said that he would introduce a ban on moral grounds. Will the Minister enlighten us on how far that has got?

[Richard Benyon]

I hope I am giving the clear message that this Government are determined to ban the use of animals in circuses, and I do not want to dance on the head of a pin in trying to tease out the different strands of opinion in the House on how to achieve that end. Societies’ attitudes change over time, not least on animal welfare issues, and this is one such issue.

I take my family to see Giffords circus, which travels around my part of the country. It does not have wild animals, but it does have horses and dogs, and—

EU Fisheries Negotiations

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Tuesday 8th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I represented the UK at the fisheries part of the Agriculture and Fisheries Council in Brussels on 18 to 20 December. Richard Lochhead, Michelle O’Neill and Alun Davies attended for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales respectively.

The annual December round of negotiations for total allowable catches, or TACs, and quotas is a difficult process, and this year was particularly challenging. UK fishermen were facing automatic 25% reductions in the time they can spend at sea, as well as significant decreases in TACs and quotas. I entered this year’s negotiation clear in my mind that decisions on quotas or on days spent at sea need to be based on three clear principles: following scientific advice, sustainability, and the need for continued discard reduction. We adhered to these principles throughout, and I am pleased to report to the House that the UK Government secured a deal that was good for the health of our seas and for the UK fishing industry.

We secured agreement to end automatic reductions to the number of days fishermen can spend at sea, overcoming legal obstacles in the cod recovery plan. The number of available days in 2013 will be at the same level as 2012, giving fishermen the time to fish sustainably, avoiding discards and juvenile fish. The quota for North sea cod in 2013 will be decided during the EU-Norway negotiations next week. We removed the requirement for this to be based on an automatic 20% reduction, instead enabling the quota to be set on the basis of scientific evidence. Reflecting the latest science, the UK is calling for a rollover of the TAC to decrease discards, increase the likelihood of achieving maximum sustainable yield by 2015, and improve the stock biomass. This outcome, together with our success in removing proposed restrictions on discard reduction programmes, means that our highly successful and innovative catch quota scheme, which effectively eliminates discards, can continue to grow and develop this year.

On fish quotas, where the scientific evidence showed that significant cuts in quota were necessary for the health of the stock, we accepted them—for example, in the case of North sea nephrops, Celtic sea herring and Rockall haddock—but where they were not justified we successfully managed to fight huge cuts to quotas across a number of different fish stocks. The proposed cuts to quotas were often not supported by the available evidence and would have led to an increase in the discarding of perfectly edible fish. Successes included mitigating a 55% cut in south-west haddock to 15%, a 48% cut in west of Scotland haddock to 30%, and overturning a 12% cut to a 6% increase in nephrops around Northern Ireland. Because a number of stocks are improving, we were able to increase quotas for them this year. For example, we secured increases in quota for plaice and sole in the channel, nephrops in the west of Scotland, and cod and whiting in the south-west. We are hoping to secure increases in many of the North sea stocks, in line with the scientific advice, as part of the EU-Norway discussions next week.

Through the night the UK team battled hard to reach an agreement that ensures the long-term sustainability of fish stocks while providing short-term catching opportunities for our fishing industry. The package we secured helps all sectors of the industry, large and small, and delivers benefits for all parts of the UK—north, south, east and west. It was a good result for the UK fleet and for sustainable exploitation of the fish on which our fishermen depend. It also supports our wider objectives on the reform of the common fisheries policy, and it was a timely coincidence that the European Parliament was voting on CFP reform at the same time that the annual quota negotiations were taking place. I was very pleased that ambitious provisions to eliminate discards, set fishing rates sustainably and allow for regional decision making were voted through. This was an important step forward for the reform process, and it bodes well that the final package we will negotiate this year will include the radical reforms we all agree are needed.

[Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for advance sight of his statement.

I sympathise with the Minister for being forced to sit through the night at the Fisheries Council at the end of last year in what I am confident he would describe as a Kafkaesque experience. Does he agree that our fishing industry deserves better than this undignified and often chaotic annual round of negotiations each December? More to the point, does he agree that public and industry confidence in the negotiation framework would be enhanced by a substantial degree of transparency? By holding meetings behind closed doors, the Council prevents us from evaluating the logic behind its decisions. What measures does the Minister plan in future to open up these negotiations to a healthy dose of public scrutiny?

We are at a critical point for fisheries management, and common fisheries policy reform is at the top of the agenda. May I wish the Minister every success during the EU-Norway negotiations on the North sea cod quota next week? Labour Members welcome the news that automatic cuts to the North sea cod quota and a reduction in the number of fishing days at sea have been avoided. Given public outrage at the shameful waste of discards, any change in policy that increased discards would have been unacceptable. Is the Minister aware of concerns within the fishing industry that the vote by the Council of Ministers to amend the more problematic parts of the cod management plan could be subject to legal challenge from the European Parliament? Can he guarantee that the Council’s vote will not be overruled by the outcome of such a legal challenge?

The Minister told the House that proposed cuts to quotas were “often not supported by the available evidence”. Will he give us examples? Can he confirm that despite the Council’s, and his own, public support for evidence-based policy-making, about half of all quotas have been set above levels advised by the International Council for the Exploration of the Sea? He reported that the Council was able to increase quotas for those stocks that are improving. Can he confirm to the House that all these quota increases were unambiguously supported and recommended by the scientific evidence?

What discussions, if any, took place at Council regarding the ongoing dispute between UK and Icelandic fishermen on disputed north-east Atlantic mackerel stock? Was the Minister personally involved in any discussions on the possible enforcement of EU sanctions against Iceland and the Faroe Islands, and will he update the House on this crucial issue?

Is the Minister fully aware of the increasing importance to Scottish processing plants of the blue whiting quota, and will he bear this in mind as he approaches the EU negotiations with Norway next week? Total allowable catch for blue whiting increased significantly in 2012 but is still constrained by our commitment to swap quotas for North sea cod with Norway—a move that largely benefits Spain and Portugal.

Lastly, given the importance to these annual negotiations of quota distribution within the EU, will the Minister update the House on when he expects to be able to publish the full, comprehensive and up-to-date list of who owns the UK fishing quota, long promised by this Government?

I welcome the Minister’s statement and wish him every success in future negotiations. So long as he continues to represent the fight for the sustainability of the UK’s fishing industry and of our vital natural resource, he will continue to enjoy our conditional support.

[Richard Benyon]

I would expect nothing less from the hon. Gentleman.

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his sympathy about the absurd and ridiculous processes that one has to go through. With the reform of the common fisheries policy, we have a golden opportunity to end some of the absurdity, if not all of it. We can cease the ridiculous charade of a Minister like me discussing fishing net sizes with a Commission official perhaps 1,000 miles from where the net will be used. That is a technical matter that should be decided locally with fishermen. That is why our regionalisation agenda as part of the CFP reform is so important.

The system can also be improved through better long-term management plans. The cod recovery plan is a bad plan, but that should not dissuade us from pushing for more long-term management plans that are scientifically based and worked through with the industry, taking away from politicians the late-night horse trading and making the system much more evidence based. We want to see more of that.

The hon. Gentleman raised an issue about cod. Where cod effort continues to be reduced, the incentive is then for fishermen to fish as soon as possible after leaving port, and that might not be the most sustainable place for them to catch fish—it might be where cod are spawning or where there are more juvenile fish. We want to encourage them to go to the places where there are the larger fish that they can target sustainably.

The hon. Gentleman asked whether this will be subject to a legal challenge. It may well be—these things happen. I was very clear that I did not want the livelihoods of our fishermen or the sustainability of our seas to be the totemic issue on which inter-institutional rivalries would be sorted out. Therefore, the decision we took to support the presidency in sorting out this element of the cod recovery plan was the right one. It may well end up in court and I cannot guarantee the result, but we have secured a sensible solution for this year.

The hon. Gentleman asked about the advice of the International Council for the Exploration of the Sea. ICES looks at individual fish stocks rather than, as is the case in this country, mixed fisheries, so we do apply other scientific advice. On cod, we got ICES to agree that our rationale was right that if we had progressed down the route proposed by the Commission, it would have resulted in more discards.

Mackerel remains our absolute priority. It is this country’s biggest by-value catch and I am determined to do all we can to get Iceland and the Faroes back to the negotiating table and find a solution. If not, sanctions remain on the table.

I will write to the hon. Gentleman about blue whiting, because that is a more technical issue.

We inherited an extraordinary situation whereby we do not know who owns quota in this country, which is daft. We have set about our determination to resolve that issue this year, so I hope that at some point in 2013 we will be able to explain to the House whether or not quota is actually owned by football clubs and celebrities, as is constantly made clear to me. We have yet to find out and are working hard to achieve that.

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

I congratulate the Fisheries Minister on enduring the final throes of an out-of-date policy. Could he assure the House that cod quota will be extended to our hard-pressed, initial under-10 metre fleet? That is extremely important.

On the common fisheries policy, it is music to the ears of fishermen that we are proceeding on the grounds of sustainability, sound scientific advice and, indeed, a discard policy that should work. Will he assure the House that regional control will amount to control by him and his colleagues for the North sea fishermen and, indeed, by the fishermen and the regional advisory councils themselves?

[Richard Benyon]

I thank my hon. Friend for her remarks. Yes, I can confirm that cod is an important stock for the inshore fleet as well as for others. It is welcome that cod stocks are increasing. That is in so small part thanks to the work being done by fishermen in all sectors to improve the biomass of this important staple of our diet. It is not entirely good news—there are still cuts to cod quotas in some areas—but the general trend is increasing. We need to reflect on the fact that 1 million tonnes of cod will be caught off Norway and in the North sea this year. This stock is improving dramatically not very far from us. It is not improving quickly enough, but we are working hard to achieve that.

I agree with my hon. Friend that sustainability is important, not just because we mind about the health of our seas, but because we mind about the future of our fishing industry. We want an increased biomass and it is through increased stocks that more businesses will progress and become more profitable.

I absolutely concur with my hon. Friend’s comments on regional management. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has been banging this drum for a long time. We want fully documented fisheries where the technical measures that are currently decided by a top-down centralised system are decided locally on an ecosystem basis, so that in an area such as the North sea it is the countries that actually fish in it that will decide how it is managed.

[Mr Frank Doran (Aberdeen North) (Lab)]

I join in congratulating the Minister on this very good result that is obviously welcomed by the fishing industry. He is well aware of the trials that are taking place in Scotland to improve discards. The Scottish Fishermen’s Federation is anxious that they progress as quickly as possible and feel that it would be extremely beneficial to have an extra quota of fish specifically to pursue the research. Is the Minister prepared to argue for that in next week’s Norway discussions?

[Richard Benyon]

What we managed to achieve was to get the argument understood. We are not talking about more mortality; we are talking about landing more fish that would otherwise be discarded. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that fishermen from his part of the world have led the way on a whole range of measures. Some have been technical and have involved their gear, while others have involved real-time closures, but the really important scheme is the catch quota scheme, which has involved fully documented fisheries. The scheme has been praised from the commissioner downwards as the way forward. We want it to become the norm and, in many respects, for it to be much extended, because under that scheme practically no cod will be discarded from vessels this year. That is an incredible achievement by those fishermen and the people who have worked with them on such schemes, and we want to see more of that.

[Mr Speaker]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) on his CBE in the new year’s honours list. I also congratulate his hon. Friend the hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke) on her OBE in the same list.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

I, too, congratulate the Minister on the tremendous progress that has been made on regionalisation. It has long been an ambition of the UK Government that more decision making and management of the common fisheries policy be done locally. Could he give us other examples of how this will benefit the UK fleet and ensure that it has a happy future?

[Richard Benyon]

I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend on his recent honour.

Many benefits can be achieved from proper, effective regionalisation. Ending the top-down, centralised control of small and detailed technical measures is an important way forward. Ensuring that local fishermen work with scientists and developing the concept that every single vessel is a scientific platform can only be achieved locally. We cannot achieve what we want to achieve on discards without regionalisation. It has been a real battle to push this through the Council and other forums. I am really pleased that the fisheries committee of the European Parliament recognises this. We now have to make sure that it is followed through in the bizarre processes that we have to go through for the rest of the year, in order to ensure meaningful reform. I assure my hon. Friend that this is a priority for us.

[Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)]

The Minister will recall that I have called on a number of occasions for the abolition of the common fisheries policy and for the Government to press that on European colleagues. I still believe that we should do that. Would it not be sensible to return to the national limits that we used to have, so that we can manage our fish stocks and monitor our fishing? That is how the Norwegians do it, and their fisheries are much better than ours.

The question that I really want to ask relates to Spain, which has in the past refused to give information about its fishing. Indeed, there have been suggestions that it is landing black fish illegally. Is Spain being properly regulated now?

[Richard Benyon]

Sadly, Spain is not alone in having had problems in the past with black fish landings. We have to make sure that all houses are in order when we criticise countries for failing to obey the rules. I want to make it absolutely clear that if people land black fish—illegal, unreported and unregulated landings of fish—they are stealing those fish from our fishermen. People such as the hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) have made that important point consistently.

The hon. Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) is consistent in his view of the common fisheries policy. I certainly would not have started from this point, and I think that most Members would agree with that. As we develop the policy further, we need to recognise that the “common” part of the common fisheries policy is not necessarily wrong. We need to manage this on an ecosystem basis. Fish may spawn in one country’s waters and then swim to those of another country. They do not have passports and we need to manage the situation on a sea basin basis, and that is where our regionalisation agenda is going.

[Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the Commission’s draconian and inflexible stance, particularly on stocks with a precautionary, rather than an analytical, TAC, is a clear reason why management and decision making should be devolved to the local nation states that have a real interest in the sea basin area? Will he argue for that in the CFP review negotiations?

[Richard Benyon]

I thank my hon. Friend for her continued interest in this issue. Her knowledge is important in guiding us and making sure that we are on this agenda. I assure her that we are. I want fishermen from her part of the world to take responsibility for the detailed management, technical measures and other sustainability issues that we require of them, rather than feeling that yet another layer of control is being imposed on them. That is what is driving people out of the industry and making fishermen feel that they do not want their children or grandchildren to go into their industry. I am determined to see a degree of regionalisation that is effective in delivering that.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister for his hard work and effort on behalf of the fishing industry, especially in Northern Ireland, and for working with the Minister in Northern Ireland. Along with Diane Dodds, I met the Minister the day before he went to Brussels to put the case for the Northern Ireland fishing sector. The 6% increase in nephrops is most welcome, especially for the Northern Ireland fishing fleet. What plans does he have to address the growing problems associated with Irish sea cod, particularly in area VII, and the assertion of the Scientific, Technical and Economic Committee for Fisheries that science suffers from annual TAC reductions?

[Richard Benyon]

I understand the hon. Gentleman’s concerns. I am pleased with where we got to on nephrops.

On the technical issue of Irish sea cod, I think that we can slightly ameliorate the impact of the cut. Working with fishermen in his constituency and the STECF, I hope that we can move the argument forward. Great work is being done by fishermen in Northern Ireland on selectivity, and I encourage that. I want to achieve the holy grail of fisheries management, which we are achieving elsewhere: catching less and landing more. We can do that.

[Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)]

My constituency and neighbouring Grimsby broadly welcome the negotiations and, in particular, the moves towards regionalisation. However, the Minister will be aware that there are concerns that the negotiations between the EU and Iceland over mackerel catches may lead to lower imports into this country, which are vital to the Grimsby-based industry. Will he give the industry in my constituency some reassurance?

[Richard Benyon]

I visited my hon. Friend’s region not long before Christmas and that point was made very clear to me. I recognise that we have a very valuable processing industry that we want to protect. In large part, it is dependent on fish from Iceland. If sanctions are brought in against Iceland, we want to ensure that they are proportionate. We think we can exert some influence in this area and get Iceland back to the table, so that we can start seeing proper management of a stock that swims across a vast area that is the responsibility of many countries.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

On behalf of the Scottish and UK fishing industries, may I congratulate the Minister on a job well done? Will he give the House an assessment of whether Scotland’s fishermen would have benefited from having a separate delegation or whether we are better together?

[Richard Benyon]

My view is that Scotland’s fishermen are best represented as part of a large, 29-vote member of the European Union. That is true of a lot of other interests. I cannot do the maths off the top of my head to work out how many votes Scotland would have as an independent state, but I think that it is best served by being part of the United Kingdom in these negotiations.

[Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con)]

I congratulate the Minister on behalf of myself and the fishermen of Ramsgate. Will he elaborate on the impact of the settlement on the under-10 metre fleet, in particular in the channel?

[Richard Benyon]

We achieved an increase in the quotas for sole and plaice in my hon. Friend’s area and a roll-over of the sprat quota, which was due for a big cut. Those are all valuable fisheries for her constituents. I am gratified that fishermen in her area are part of our trial for more financial support for the under-10 metre fleet in the coming year.

[Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)]

There is much to welcome in the Minister’s statement. I commend him and the devolved Ministers for their efforts in recent weeks. I, too, want to press the Minister on the mackerel dispute, which is still at an impasse. Will he give an assurance that he will reject the Commission’s proposals for reductions in mackerel quotas next week at the EU-Norway talks, because that would simply reward Iceland and the Faroes for destructive overfishing and fail to pull them back to the negotiating table?

[Richard Benyon]

I am sure that the hon. Lady, like me, wants to ensure that we stay resolute in our determination to follow the science. We have a political issue to sort out with the mackerel problem and that can be done only by getting Iceland and the Faroes back round the table. I do not want the United Kingdom to fish the last mackerel out of the sea. We want to ensure that the stock remains sustainable. I feel very unhappy about the impact that this situation could be having on her constituents and on those whom I have met in Lerwick and in other places where mackerel is an important fishery. We want to ensure that Iceland and the Faroes play ball, but we cannot allow this stock to be fished unsustainably.

[Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

I thank my hon. Friend for all that he has tried to do for the under-10 metre fleet. Will he say more about how the “non-sector” will be affected by the settlement, in particular people fishing out of Harwich, Brightlingsea and Wivenhoe, a fleet that he knows well?

[Richard Benyon]

As I have said, there is good news for the under-10 metre fleet, which is particularly effective at targeting stocks such as sole and plaice. There is quite a large increase in the plaice quota and we managed to avoid a big cut in other stocks by presenting the science and working with my hon. Friend’s constituents who fish sustainably. The under-10 metre fleet can feel proud of their contribution towards the sustainability of our fishing industry and I commend those in his constituency for that.

[Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Minister has taken a sensible approach to the dispute over mackerel with Iceland and the Faroes. In the discussions that he and his colleagues have with them, will he ensure that the point is made that they will be the biggest losers if there is an unsustainable approach to mackerel fishing in the North sea? It may be attractive to Iceland to get immediate economic returns from the mackerel stock, given its current economic situation, but it would not be in that country’s interest to see the stock diminished beyond recognition.

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Benyon]

There is a perfectly acceptable international method for resolving these disputes, but it requires countries such as Iceland to take part in the process. We remain willing to discuss the matter with them in an open and meaningful way. The ball is in their court. In the meantime, this is a difficult time for the industry, with the threat to the viability of the pelagic fleet. I assure the hon. Gentleman that we remain absolutely committed to ensuring that bad practice is not rewarded and that we are working hard to achieve a happy solution to this problem.

[Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)]

I congratulate the Minister on securing an increase in the quotas for cod and whiting in the south-west and for plaice and sole in the channel. How quickly does he think it will be possible to roll out the catch quota scheme to further eliminate discards?

[Richard Benyon]

I was really pleased that fishermen in my hon. Friend’s constituency entered the scheme last year. I want many more vessels to do so, because fully documented fisheries are the only way forward, not only to have proper management of our fisheries, but to address the concerns of all our constituents—even mine inland—who are affronted by the idea of perfectly edible fish being thrown away. Through schemes such as the catch quota scheme we can give assurances to our consumers and make life better for our fishermen, who are landing more and being better rewarded for it. This is an entirely virtuous circle.

[Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)]

I, too, congratulate the Minister on his work in the negotiations before Christmas and over the past two and a half years on behalf of the under-10 metre fleet. There is concern that in future work on the reallocation of quota, the under-10s will be compromised by not having kept records. Will he confirm that he will work with the industry to address that concern?

[Richard Benyon]

I hope my hon. Friend would concede that I am on record as having faced criticism from some quarters for reallocating quota to the under-10 metre sector. I strongly believe that fishing opportunity is a national resource, and this rather bizarre business is about the allocation of that national resource. I firmly believe that the under-10 metre sector is important socially as well as economically, and I will continue to do what I can to make its life better.

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

I warmly congratulate my hon. Friend the Minister on both what he has achieved and the manner in which he has conducted the negotiations. He mentioned the context of the common fisheries policy reform. Will he reassure the House that his counterparts in Europe will respect the fact that we are introducing marine conservation zones that extend beyond the six and 12-mile limits, to ensure that British fishermen are not constrained in areas where foreign vessels are not?

[Richard Benyon]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and that is really important. I am not in the business of proposing restrictions for our vessels only to see vessels from other countries entering the restricted areas in our waters and fishing in a way that our fishermen cannot. We must have the matter agreed at European level, and I have already had discussions with my French counterpart on it. We will have further discussions to ensure that it is completely clear at every level that we are not imposing a restriction on ourselves that will not be recognised by other countries.

[George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con)]

I welcome the Minister’s success in getting the scientific evidence heard, particularly when it comes to haddock in the south-west. Why were the Commission’s original proposals so far wide of the mark, and why is it apparently so dysfunctional on the issue and so deaf to the evidence?

[Richard Benyon]

The issue of haddock in the south-west is a product of the situation that I mentioned earlier, whereby the International Council for the Exploration of the Sea simply examines one stock on its own. In most of the UK waters we have mixed fisheries, and there is a danger that we can—I have already used this expression in Committee today—make the perfect the enemy of the good. If we are tied to one species, in this case a “choke species”, it can result in more discards and worsen the sustainability of wider stocks. That was why we argued successfully for a reduction in the cut.

[Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)]

I am sure that the fishermen who fish in Sole bay will be delighted by the increase in eastern channel sole, as will those in Southwold, Orford, Sizewell and elsewhere in my constituency. Does the Minister share my concern, though, about the comments of the chief executive of the New Under Ten Fishermen’s Association that the deal was damaging, when it has actually proved a lifeline for many of our coastal fishermen?

[Richard Benyon]

I think the chief executive’s comments were a pity, because if he had looked closely at what we achieved he would have seen an improved prospect for the year ahead across all sectors and around all our coasts. That includes some valuable stocks that are of particular interest to his members, so I accept my hon. Friend’s point.

[Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con)]

May I add to the chorus of congratulations from Members on both sides of the House on the Minister’s his genuine achievements? In particular, the increase in the nephrops quota will be most welcome in Fleetwood and is a real success. Now that he is back, may I ask him to keep an eye on the new wind farm applications in the Irish sea so that there might be some space left for my local fishermen to catch the new quota?

[Richard Benyon]

My hon. Friend may try you, Mr Speaker, but I listened to what he said. I want to ensure that we get away from the silo mentality in managing our fisheries of talking about fishermen in one forum, conservation in another and other marine activities in a third. Following the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009, we are moving towards much more holistic management of our seas, which is right.

Marine Conservation Zones

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Thursday 13th December 2012 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

Today I am pleased to announce the launch of the public consultation on marine conservation zones (MCZs). The consultation will remain open until 31 March 2013.

This is a key step to meeting the Government’s commitment under the Marine and Coastal Access Act to create a network of marine protected areas in the UK to ensure that our marine biodiversity flourishes for years to come. These MCZs will complement 8.4% of UK waters and 24% of English inshore waters already within protected areas.

The consultation document explains that, following recommendations from four regional MCZ projects, and advice from the Government’s Statutory Nature Conservation Bodies, Natural England and the Joint Nature Conservation Committee, we propose to designate 31 sites in 2013. It describes the approach we have taken in selecting the proposed sites for designation in the first tranche and how we propose to treat other MCZ recommendations from the regional projects. The consultation also provides clarification on a number of issues which have been controversial during the site identification process including:

reference areas—these will not be included in the first tranche but will be subject to further review;

treatment of MCZs at different stages in the designation process in licensing decisions—to assist developers in the marine area we have clarified how developments should be treated in or near MCZs so that economic growth is not inhibited unnecessarily;

the UK Administrations’ commitment to an ecologically coherent network—we have agreed with devolved Administrations in the UK that, biologically, a more sensible approach is to assess ecological coherence at a biogeographic zone level and to consider this commitment as a UK contribution to a wider ecologically coherent network. This will also meet UK commitments in OSPAR. Further MCZs are expected to be designated to contribute to this objective.

A key challenge has been the poor state of evidence in the marine environment. Every effort has been made to ensure that the selection of sites for the first tranche provides environmental benefits but does not go beyond what the evidence will support and does not unduly compromise coastal development.

In a number of cases where sites contain features that are rare or threatened and where there is some supporting evidence, we have proposed that these are designated in the first tranche in line with the precautionary principle.

The potential implications for business and Government of the proposals in this consultation have been considered in detail in an impact assessment which accompanies this consultation.

Today I am also laying the report to Parliament pursuant to section 124 of the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009. This summarises progress with forming a network of conservation sites to meet the requirements set out in the Act.

Green Waste (Contamination)

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Wednesday 12th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell) for raising this worthwhile subject. He shows why there is a need to achieve a balance between encouraging the recycling of waste of all types and securing protection for people, animals and the natural environment.

No one should challenge the idea that it is right to encourage the treatment of green waste to produce valuable compost or soil conditioner. We strongly support measures that encourage the recycling of green waste. Over the past 10 years we have invested about £7 million in helping to develop new markets for quality compost. The composting sector in the UK has grown tenfold in the past five years as European and national legislation has encouraged local authorities to collect biodegradable garden and kitchen waste for processing into useful products, rather than consigning it to landfill. Let us not forget that organic waste sent to landfill produces methane, which has strong climate change effects. Composting is now a key component of many local authorities’ waste strategies, as my hon. Friend pointed out, as they work to improve the sustainable management of their waste.

The demand for composted products has continued to increase. The industry turned over an estimated £226 million in 2008-09, 36% above the figure for 2007-08. Agriculture is the most important single market for compost, accepting 1.8 million tonnes of a total production of 2.8 million tonnes in 2010. Green compost, when produced to the right quality standard and used in the right way, benefits agriculture, particularly on arable—cropped—soils. It replaces fertilisers or the use of peat and other material, thus conserving natural resources.

However, we must ensure that compost is produced to the right quality standard. That starts by ensuring that we keep green waste separate from other waste and avoid the introduction of contaminants, be they physical ones, such as pieces of metal, or less obvious ones, such as oil, rubber and residues found in street sweepings from the public highway. We need to ensure that the composting process is carried out in an environmentally sound manner and does not result in the production of polluting leachate that escapes into water courses or odours that cause a nuisance for those living nearby. The Environmental Agency has an important role in regulating composting and other waste recovery operations.

As has been graphically described, we do not want contaminated waste spread on land. We have in place quality protocols that are supported by publicly available standards—PAS 100 for compost and PAS 110 for the digestate for anaerobic digestion. Those specifications allow only source-segregated biodegradable inputs, including biodegradable garden and kitchen wastes collected from households. The PAS 100 specifications include stringent limits on physical contaminants, such as metal, plastic and glass, that can be present in the finished composts. Those limits were revised down from a total of 0.5% of dry weight to 0.25% in 2011. They are now the toughest in Europe. If those standards are met, the output is considered to be completely recycled and is no longer subject to waste management controls. Producing waste to those standards helps producers to guarantee compost that is safe to be marketed or spread on agricultural land as a quality product and helps to improve confidence in composted materials among end users.

[Sir Bob Russell]

I must express disappointment at the Minister’s response so far. He is describing the theory, but the reality is what metal detecting enthusiasts from across England and their hobby group are telling me. What he describes is simply not happening out there in the field.

[Richard Benyon]

I think that the point I was coming to might answer my hon. Friend’s concerns. I will say now what I was going to say later: the Government are in absolutely no way complacent about this. We might have the most stringent standards in Europe, but we want to see that we are enforcing them. Having the most stringent standards is just a factor on a piece of paper; we are concerned with outcomes. I want to assure him that we will follow up any cases where we believe there has been a failure to comply with standards, and I will move on to explain how the principle that the polluter should pay will continue to be a key component of what we do.

Of course, not all compost needs to be produced to such a standard. Lower grade compost and compost-like outputs can be legitimately used on land, for example as mulch. In those cases, the compost remains a waste and its use on land is subject to environmental permitting or registered exemption controls in the same way as the composting process itself. That is monitored and closely enforced by the Environment Agency. We are aware of cases of sham recovery where, under the guise of composting, some operators have seemingly been more interested in disposing of unwanted materials than producing a worthwhile product. Where such cases are identified, the Environment Agency will investigate and consider enforcement action in accordance, importantly for my hon. Friend, with its enforcement and sanctions guidelines.

The controls on compost spread to land are in place, but we are keen to guard more generally against adverse impacts resulting from the spreading of a wider range of waste and non-waste materials on land. For this reason, officials in the Department and in the Environment Agency have set up a joint project to look at the impacts of other materials spread on land and whether we have the right controls in place. Nobody has total possession of all wisdom in this regard, and we are happy to take up any cases that we hear about from hon. Members, local authorities, or members of the public and organisations such as the one that my hon. Friend mentioned. In doing so, we will need to be absolutely clear about the rationale for any further intervention and avoid unnecessary or disproportionate regulation. We believe that there are sanctions in place that can deal with every one of the cases that he raises. If that is not happening, we as Ministers want to know why, and we look to him and others to provide cases that we can take up with the Environment Agency, which we will do with vigour.

[Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)]

Will the Minister consider the fact that it is possible to look at the outcome as opposed to the process and perhaps offer some facility for the Environment Agency to recognise the integrity of agricultural and food-producing land and to offer some protection for that land? We already protect water voles and all sorts of other things in a number of different ways. If we looked to the protection of the land, any offence on it could be worked against by the Environment Agency rather than trying to classify every assault on the land.

[Richard Benyon]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. What Government have to do is to create standards, and we do that in accordance, in the main, with European designations on such matters. However, that is a very prosaic and rather unambitious reason to do it. We also do it because we want to do so. We want to see a healthy environment. We want our food grown in a healthy way, and we want to be mindful of the health of the consumer and, of course, the impact on the environment. We are very concerned with outcomes, so we are genuinely worried when we hear such issues raised. As I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester, we are in no way complacent. We take our responsibilities very seriously. We are absolutely desirous of having good outcomes from all the measures that are in place. Many people say that far too many regulations are imposed on our food-producing industry and that we need to try to rationalise them, but we do not do that at the expense of the health of our environment or the consumer.

We have covered a lot of ground in the remarks made by my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester and the intervention by my hon. Friend the Member for Wells (Tessa Munt). I understand the attraction of metal detecting as a hobby, because a lot of people in my constituency do it. It is not only a good way of getting out into the countryside and doing a worthwhile activity; it is part of our agenda of more people having access to the countryside. It is also, as my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester points out, a fantastic way of collecting and identifying some extraordinary artefacts. We have all heard some of the wonderful stories in recent years, especially in and around the ancient Roman city of Camulodunum, now of course Colchester. I appreciate the frustration of the members of the National Council for Metal Detecting and note its recent petition on the subject. I particularly note the concern of those in my hon. Friend’s constituency, and I agree that we cannot accept the inappropriate spreading of what is alleged to be green waste, or the wilful damage to our environment.

The Government have a fundamental duty to continue to support and encourage the recycling and recovery of waste so as to conserve natural resources. We also have a responsibility towards the established principle in modern society that the polluter pays. That is an important sanction against the kind of pollution that my hon. Friend has described, and I reaffirm that if he can bring us evidence of this kind of thing happening, perhaps from his contacts in the National Council for Metal Detecting, I can assure him that there will be no lack of will among Ministers or those in the Environment Agency to take up those cases.

I hope that I have managed to reassure my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester and the House that there are good regulatory systems in place, and sanctions that should be working. There are also quality protocols which, if complied with, can add immensely to helping our environment. Where they are not being complied with, the perpetrators can be punished.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Thursday 6th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

1. What plans his Department has to consult stakeholders about the conservation plans which give effect to marine conservation zones.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I expect to consult shortly on the first round of marine conservation zones.

[Andrew George]

I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. Like him, I am a strong advocate of this policy and have been for some time. May I seek reassurance that the introduction of this policy will create an ecologically coherent network of marine conservation zones, and will he ensure that all stakeholders—fishermen and environmentalists—are fully consulted on conservation plans, as well as on the designation of sites?

[Richard Benyon]

My hon. Friend and I are veterans of the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009. We have strived hard to achieve the definition of ecological coherence, which I am confident we will achieve. He is right to say that the next stage of consultation concerns the management of conservation zones, and I absolutely agree that fishermen and other stakeholders who were involved in the early stages of the process should be included.

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

Statutory conservation bodies and the scientific advisory panel have said that to achieve an ecologically coherent network we need 127 marine conservation zones. There are clear indications that the Government intend to reduce significantly the number of zones, so will the Minister look at substituting other zones for those that have been dropped?

[Richard Benyon]

With respect to the hon. Lady, I am not the slightest bit interested in numbers or lines on maps. I am interested in an ecologically coherent network that can stand up to the independent scientific advisory panel, which stated that some of the 127 sites did not have enough scientific evidence to support them. When introducing the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009, the then Government said, quite rightly, that the zones needed to be evidence-based. We have put lots of resources into getting more evidence—we will bring forward the first tranche of that any day now—and we will continue to progress this expensive yet important measure as years go by.

[Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)]

I welcome the Minister’s proposed visit to the Isle of Wight. Is he confident that the economic impact of MCZs, particularly off the island, will be given sufficient consideration and weight before any formal decision is made?

[Richard Benyon]

Quite rightly, the Act allowed Ministers the discretion to consider socio-economic impacts in the designation of zones. I assure my hon. Friend and his constituents that we will take such considerations into account.

[Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab)]

The Minister’s Department insists that a lack of scientific certainty should not be used as an excuse to delay the establishment of marine conservation zones. Three and a half years after Labour’s world-leading Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009, and £8.5 million, the latest nature watch report by the Wildlife and Countryside Link has awarded Ministers a black mark for their inaction. When the Department is given an opportunity to act, why does it choose instead to dither?

[Richard Benyon]

The hon. Gentleman had only to consult his colleague on the Front Bench, the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies), to understand the basis of what we are seeking to achieve. A couple of weeks ago, those on the Labour Front Bench were wrongly accusing the Government of ignoring scientific advice. The hon. Gentleman is now telling us to ignore such advice but I am sorry, we are not prepared to do that. The establishment of marine conservation zones must be done properly and stand up in terms of evidence. In the full spirit of the 2009 Act, on which all parties agreed, we must have absolute clarity on what is meant by ecological coherence, and we will get there.

[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

2. What recent steps he has taken to ensure that farmers receive a fair price for milk.

--- Later in debate ---

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

4. What plans he has for the future structure of the water and sewerage industry.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

The Government’s water White Paper set out our vision for a resilient and sustainable water industry that is able to attract long-term investment. We are committed to measured reform to protect the strengths of the current system. Our draft Water Bill includes proposals to deliver evolutionary reform of the water sector. This will benefit customers and enable new players and new ways of thinking to enter the market.

[David Mowat]

The UK regulated asset base has been a great driver of inward investment into the UK for infrastructure projects. Will the Minister confirm that there is nothing in the draft Bill that will undermine the size of that asset base, and will he consider using the regulated asset model to bring in money for badly needed flood defences?

[Richard Benyon]

I can confirm that the golden thread running through our water White Paper, all our policies since then and, in particular, the Water Bill underpins our commitment to continued investment in this sector. It has benefited from £108 billion of low-cost investment over the past 22 years, and we want to see that outstanding success continue. I note what my hon. Friend says about the plans to extend the model to flood defences. That proposal has been put by one or two water companies. We do not propose to bring it forward at this time, but we are always open to considering such matters.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

If the Minister is doing something about the structure of the water industry, I hope he will be influenced by the fact that, as it has been revealed, three companies do not pay any tax.

On a specific problem with sewage and water, is he aware that most hospitals discharge all their food waste straight down into the sewerage system? Is it not about time we did something about that 19th-century practice?

[Richard Benyon]

One of the reforms that we are seeking to introduce in the draft Water Bill is about bringing innovation into the sector. There are fantastic new technologies that can tackle precisely the sort of things the hon. Gentleman talks about, and the Bill will allow such schemes to be introduced in a cost-effective way.

[Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)]

5. What assessment he has made of the effect of partnership funding on the provision of flood defences.

--- Later in debate ---

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

8. What discussions he has had with the Welsh Government on measures to reduce flooding by changes in planting and drainage.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I have regular contact with the Welsh Government but our discussions have not covered that specific issue. However, officials from DEFRA and the Environment Agency share experience and evidence of land management measures such as drainage and planting with colleagues in Wales.

[Glyn Davies]

The River Severn rises in Plynlimon in mid-Wales but causes most of its flood damage in England. The Montgomeryshire Wildlife Trust is doing magnificent work with its Plynlimon project, which benefits diversity as well as helping flood relief by holding back rainwater. Will my hon. Friend work closely with the Montgomeryshire Wildlife Trust and the Welsh Government to provide support that is commensurate with that benefit?

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The hon. Gentleman should ask a question; this is not a debate.

[Richard Benyon]

I am well aware of the importance of Plynlimon to the whole Severn estuary, and to houses and property on both sides of the border. We have to take an holistic view in flood management when cross-border issues need to be ironed out, and we are working to ensure that the new Natural Resources Body for Wales and the Environment Agency are working closely on this issue.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

9. What progress he has made in negotiations with the EU on a derogation from the ban on the import or manufacture of incandescent bulbs for those who suffer ill health as a result of exposure to low-energy lighting ahead of the review of legislation in 2014; and if he will make a statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)]

T2. There has been a number of instances in Liverpool, Walton of dogs attacking other animals and persons. Police dog sections have been clamping down on irresponsible owners in our parks, but current legislation offers zero protection against dog attacks on private property. Can the Minister tell me when he expects the law to be extended and whether this will be announced in the next Queen’s Speech?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

As the hon. Gentleman will know, a Home Office measure has been proposed to extend our controls to private property. I cannot second-guess the next Queen’s Speech, but I can agree to regular consultations with the hon. Gentleman.

[Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)]

T3. This year marks the 40th anniversary of the Woodland Trust, known as Coed Cadw in Wales. As the Minister will know, over those 40 years some 16 million trees have been planted, but they are now facing a real challenge in the form of ash dieback. What steps is the Minister taking to work with the trust to overcome the problem?

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

T8. Will the Minister join me in congratulating the Shark Alliance on its successful campaign against shark finning, and on closing the loophole in the European Union shark-finning ban? Will the Government now work to secure a complete ban on shark finning? As a first step, will they focus on securing international trade safeguards for vulnerable shark and ray species under the convention on international trade in endangered species when its signatories next meet in March?

[Richard Benyon]

The hon. Lady is looking at the Shark Trust’s greatest fan: it has done wonderful work. I am delighted about the recent vote in the European Parliament, and I hope that the hon. Lady is pleased that the Government have been at the forefront of this campaign. We have been leading the way in Europe, and we will now lead the way internationally.

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

T4. I congratulate the Secretary of State on the work that he is doing in negotiating reforms of the common agricultural policy. Does he share my concern about potential delays owing to lack of agreement on the budget, and will he assure the House that farmers will have enough time to prepare for the next round of CAP reforms?

[Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)]

Unless every DEFRA Minister with a farm in his constituency is now disqualified from answering a farming question, will one of them now try to answer my question about the devastating impact of the Government’s proposed minimum alcohol price on the cider industry?

[Richard Benyon]

I shall be delighted to answer the right hon. Gentleman’s question about the cider industry. My hon. Friend the Minister of State has been told that he cannot speak on the issue because of the preponderance of cider farmers in his constituency, but I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that we are working on the issue with the Department of Health and the Home Office. We will raise with those Departments any instances in which the measure would have a pernicious effect on the rural community, and exceptions may be forthcoming.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

Will the Secretary of State press the European Union harder to open its markets to developing countries, especially in relation to the common agricultural policy?

--- Later in debate ---

[Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)]

T7. The people of Halberton and the Environment Agency worked very well when the damage to the canal happened, preventing flooding from occurring throughout the village. However, I want to see better management of our waterways, through farmers and local communities managing water and helping to dredge the rivers, because we are not doing enough to stop the flooding.

[Richard Benyon]

I assure my hon. Friend that we learn lessons from every flooding incident. Although we have implemented Pitt and the other aspects that came from recent floods, we are looking closely at issues such as dredging. I know that that is a concern in his constituency, as it is in Somerset and other places where the belief is that water is held on the ground for too long.

[Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)]

Will the Government support the United States and Russia in seeking an effective ban on the trade in polar bear hides at the forthcoming CITES—convention on international trade in endangered species—conference?

[Richard Benyon]

I met the US Government’s director with responsibility for fish and wildlife yesterday and heard the points that he was making. We are also listening to other countries that take a contrary view. We take our CITES responsibility seriously and we are looking into this issue, so I will consult the hon. Gentleman.

[Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD)]

T9. Given lurid reports on the treatment of racing greyhounds, such as that they are being administered class A drugs, what assessment has the Minister made of the industry’s self-regulation regime, and will he make a statement?

Fisheries

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Thursday 6th December 2012 Westminster Hall

[Dr Offord]

Having grown up in Cornwall and having conducted my PhD research on economic development in the county, I certainly agree. The local authority in Cornwall has a great role to play in that, but it is not currently doing so. Agriculture and fisheries are concerns in Cornwall, and those concerns are not being addressed, so I do agree with my hon. Friend.

Under the common fisheries policy, countries have had their access limited, but fishing capacity can still increase to excessive levels because of technological innovation. A decade ago it was estimated that the fishing fleet in the North sea was already 40% larger than was sustainable, so it is understandable that one of the CFP’s main thrusts is to decommission vessels. In October, I asked the Minister about the Government’s policy on the decommissioning of fishing vessels and he advised me that decommissioning was not a policy of this Government. It was, however, Government policy back in the 1930s, particularly regarding the herring fishing fleet.

I accept that decommissioning is not a panacea for the fishing industry’s problems. The first to sell up are usually those who have the worst fishing records and those with the oldest boats. In practical terms, the owners of the large fishing fleets will often sell their oldest vessels and put the money into buying new ships and fleets, and they will also put the money into fishing gear and electronics. That is, therefore, only one step that we should take, but I ask the Minister to consider it.

I also ask the Minister to consider the elimination of what I call risk-prone decision making. What I mean by that is that we should take elected politicians out of the decision-making process.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

indicated assent.

[Dr Offord]

The Minister nods in approval, but I hope he understands my rationale.

The time scales of politics and fishery management are as distinct as beef and mackerel. The two things exist in completely different time frames. Ministers and politicians usually exist in very short time frames, and the decisions taken by fisheries Ministers are often not felt for at least five or 10 years, which is usually one or even two parliamentary terms and fisheries Ministers later. We have, therefore, Ministers who end up picking up the pieces of previous poor decisions.

I would also like to consider the elimination of catch quotas, and instead to implement controls on the amount of fishing. The intention would be to replace catch quotas with limits on fishing efforts that would help the fishing industry. Landing quotas do not stop fish being killed, legally at least. By limiting fishing effort, the Government can prevent fish stocks from being killed, and allow them to live longer and produce more offspring.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Glasgow South (Mr Harris) for his words of support for our general direction, and I accept the challenge put to me by him and others to justify our approach to the many issues covered by hon. Members during this debate. I will try to address as many of them as I can, but I start by commending the hon. Members for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) and for South Down (Ms Ritchie)—I look forward to hearing from the latter in a moment—on securing the debate. The attendance makes a good case for holding it in the main Chamber. We have had a lively debate, full of interesting and useful points.

I start, as numerous hon. Members have, by remembering the seven fishermen who have lost their lives this year while working at sea and in harbour. We must all remember the courage and sacrifice of fishermen, who put their lives in danger to provide us with the food we need. I know that the House will join me in remembering the bravery of our fishermen and the incredibly difficult and dangerous work that they do. I commend the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) on making the point about the fishermen in her constituency who acted so courageously.

Before I address some of the points that have been raised, in the short time that I have, I want to set the context of where we are with the common fisheries policy and the December round. I am encouraged that we secured agreement on key areas through the general approach agreed at the Council of Fisheries Ministers in June this year. This time last year in the fisheries debate, I did not share the optimism that that could be achieved, but I am very glad that we did achieve it.

Those key areas include ambitious deadlines to eliminate discards, with provisions that will secure a workable result and a sustainable solution for the fishing industry. The commitment to implement a landing obligation, with a provisional timetable, is a major step in the right direction. The UK has been leading the way in Europe, trialling schemes that tackle discards through managing fisheries based on what is caught, not what is landed. Pilots of fully documented fisheries have been very effective in reducing discards. Following the success of the pilots to date, the UK is seeking to continue the North sea cod scheme and the schemes in the western waters, and we wish to develop new schemes for plaice, haddock and saithe in the North sea. That will help us prepare for obligations to land all catches under a reformed common fisheries policy.

The general approach is also an important first step on the way to decentralising decision making and the current complex regulations. I look forward to giving more details of that as I address some of the points that have been raised, but the UK has taken a lead role in advocating regionalisation. We have been working with other member states, the European Parliament and the European Commission to build support for workable solutions. It is clear that proposals must enable nations fishing in the same sea area, often for the same fish, to come together and agree how best to manage their fisheries without the type of micro-management from Brussels that has been so roundly condemned today. We will continue to make the case for fundamental reform as discussions take place in the European Parliament next year.

It is with those longer-term goals in mind that I will go into discussions at the December Council, where fishing opportunities for 2013 will be decided. I will negotiate for a fair and balanced package of fishing opportunities. Fundamentally, I want quotas set on scientific evidence to ensure that we can achieve sustainable levels of fishing by 2015 where possible, while ensuring that discards are reduced.

At this point, I want to comment on cod. A recent report in a Sunday newspaper, which should have known better, said that there were only 100 adult cod left in the North sea. At some point later, they had the grace to print a correction, but the correct figure, as scientists in the Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science and officials in my Department had been trying to explain to the journalist over the previous week, is 21 million adult cod in the North sea. It was a misrepresentation, and a failure in accuracy of reporting by a factor of 20,999,900, which must go down somewhere in the record books. One million tonnes of cod will be caught this year in the Barents sea and off north Norway. Cod is not a rare animal, but we have an important job to do to get it back to the levels that I know we can through proper management, and I will come on to the failures of the cod recovery plan later.

The UK, as a priority, will be seeking a way to ensure that days at sea remain at 2012 levels into 2013. We see that as vital to the recovery of cod stocks and to maintaining the viability of the UK fishing fleet. Those are two similar priorities for us. Everyone agrees that further cuts in days at sea cannot be justified, and they are being contemplated only as a result of the flawed cod recovery plan. Parallel to that is the Commission’s proposal for a 20% cut in North sea cod total allowable catch, even though the stock is growing and that cut would only lead to increased discards. The UK will be arguing strongly against both those cuts.

As we speak, the annual negotiations between the EU and Norway are ongoing in Bergen. They are always of vital importance to the UK, with jointly managed stocks such as North sea cod, whiting and haddock making up around 50% of the UK’s catch by value. It is therefore very important that we secure a good outcome from this year’s negotiation.

I share hon. Members’ concerns about the continued lack of agreement on the management of the north-east Atlantic mackerel stock, which is the UK’s most important single fishery by value, worth around £200 million a year to the UK economy. The continued behaviour of the Faroe Islands and Iceland in fishing far in excess of their historical catch levels seriously risks the future sustainability of the fishery. It is essential that we reach a sharing arrangement quickly but that we do not agree to a deal at any costs. I am pleased that the EU sanctions regulation has now been published, as it provides the EU with much-needed powers to take action against countries threatening the health of our fish stocks.

I turn to some points that hon. Members have raised in this excellent debate. The hon. Member for Aberdeen North made the point that fish stocks are generally rising, and we need to show our appreciation for the efforts of fishermen who are taking initiatives with the support of Governments in the UK to ensure that the systems they use to catch fish are sustainable.

The hon. Gentleman raised a serious concern that we, too, have about institutional arguments in Brussels, and the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan also made that point. I agree with the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation and the National Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations that we do not want cod, the cod recovery plan, or fishing stocks in UK waters to be used as a totemic issue in a struggle between EU institutions. They are too important for that. We are talking about the sustainability of a stock that we want to recover, and about the livelihoods of fishermen and those onshore who support them. I can assure the hon. Member for Aberdeen North that I am standing side by side with Norway, and I met the Norwegian Minister yesterday on the issue of mackerel. I also recognise the point that the hon. Gentleman made—as other hon. Members did, including my hon. Friends the Members for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh) and for South Thanet (Laura Sandys) and the hon. Members for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) and for Glasgow South—about who owns quota. Who has fishing opportunity is a much better way of putting it, because I entirely agree with the points that were made that our fishing opportunity is a national resource. I assure hon. Members that we will be working extremely hard through next year and will deliver—I hope by this time next year—the details that people want to know about who has access to that national resource.

I appreciate the points raised by the hon. Member for Aberdeen North about safety, which is a major concern. In addition to the tragic deaths that we have recognised, there are still too many injuries on fishing vessels. I also understand the points that he made about migrant labour. I do not have time to go into that now, but I am keen to take it up with him.

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton—and Filey—for what she said. Yes, we can get bedevilled by process, but we must keep our eye on what we are trying to achieve. I, too, welcome the fact that shellfish stocks around the UK have recently been given a thumbs-up by science and are in a healthy condition. I hope that more fishermen in her constituency and elsewhere are able to exploit that valuable stock and help our balance of payments, as well as our national diet.

The question of regionalisation was raised not only by my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton but by my hon. Friends the Members for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams), for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray), for Waveney (Peter Aldous) and for St Ives (Andrew George) and the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell), among others. Whether or not we are in the CFP—there has been some discussion about that—I strongly believe that we will always have to work with other countries on the management of our seas. We have to manage our oceans on an ecosystem basis, which means discussing them with all the countries that fish that sea basin. If we do not, we risk seeing stocks crash, because countries will exploit—within their 200-mile limit, their 12-mile limit, or wherever it is—a fish that may be there for a certain time in the life cycle but spawns elsewhere. That is why regionalisation is so important.

[Mr MacNeil]

Will the Minister give way?

[Richard Benyon]

I apologise to the hon. Gentleman, but I have a lot to get through. If I have time towards the end, I will give way.

Regionalisation should not mean a shift in power to the Commission, which was where we were before June. If all members in the sea basin area had not agreed, the Commission would have had greater powers to impose technical measures and I would still be sitting at 4 o’clock in the morning talking to an EU official about where an eliminator panel should sit in a net going out of Peterhead. That would be lunacy. We managed to change that to ensure that there will be co-decision if disagreement exists. I hope that when there is agreement, we can move forward and fishermen and local fisheries management will be at the heart of decision making.

I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) for raising the issue of nephrops. I can confirm that at least a roll-over for nephrops in the Irish sea will be an important priority for us, and we will argue on the basis of sustainability.

My hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall talks so much sense about fishing. I say to her and to my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives, who also talks sense, that the MMO has taken no decision on mackerel handline. That matter will be resolved after the December Council, but I can assure hon. Members that I understand the importance of that to the south-west fishery.

A lot of discussion has taken place about MPAs. Without the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009, we would meet our 2016 target of having 25% of our inshore waters in properly managed marine protected areas, but as we roll out marine conservation zones under the Act, which will be thoughtful and ecologically coherent, Ministers will be able to consider the socio-economic factors of the impact that they will have. I know that that is of concern to the hon. Member for Great Grimsby, my hon. Friends the Members for Hendon (Dr Offord) and for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) and others.

The hon. Member for Hartlepool made a good speech. I pass on my congratulations to his father on his birthday. The hon. Gentleman spoke about under-10 metre vessels, which are very important. Domestically, addressing the challenges facing the English under-10 metre fleet remains a key priority. Delivering effective change will not be easy, and there are some really difficult decisions. Hon. Members have alluded to disputes that may or may not exist and may or may not be resolved outside the courts. However, I assure the hon. Member for Hartlepool and others that my concern for the under-10 metre sector remains. I know that in some cases that fleet is hanging on by its fingernails. I have secured some extra quota for it, and we have the pilot in Ramsgate—I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet for her efforts to secure that. There are seven vessels in it. That is not as many as I would have hoped, and there are a variety of reasons why we did not get more. However, I want to learn from that pilot and ensure that we provide support.

Through the CFP reform, we need to address a number of different things. The hon. Member for Hartlepool raised the issue of multi-annual plans, which I believe are very important. My hon. Friend the Member for Hendon said that he wanted to take politicians out of fisheries management. We will never quite do that, but I am entirely behind him, and multi-annual plans are one way of doing that. The absurd charade that I have to go through every December is an act of politics. Some Ministers use it as a form of patronage. Multi-annual plans based on pure science are in the interests of fishermen and the marine environment. They are a much better way to make progress. They take power away from the malign activities of some politicians. I can assure hon. Members that we argue our case on the basis of science and sustainability. That long-term view is right for the fishing industry.

My hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw), the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan and my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney made very powerful speeches. I assure them that I want to see under-10 metre vessels empowered by an organisation. We are supporting them as best we can to ensure that a producer organisation, which is the right way forward, does go ahead.

I want to address quickly my hon. Friend the Member for Meon Valley (George Hollingbery) and say how much I regret that I cannot attend his conference on Monday. I want to get across, with all the vehemence at my disposal, the point that the draft Water Bill has a purpose, but what was in the water White Paper sets out clearly where we can get to. Legislation is not always the best way of delivering things, although we will need legislation to deal with over-abstraction, as there are 22,000 abstraction licences. I am quite optimistic about chalk streams. I think that we can get to where we need to be. I hope that the meeting on Monday is not channelled into a view that one piece of legislation is all that is needed to solve all our problems. We are dealing with over-abstraction now. We are implementing the water White Paper and we can, over the next few years, resolve many of the issues that he raises.

I have run out of time. Many other valid points were made by hon. Members who mind passionately about this issue, whether they come, like me, from a place that is about as far from the sea as it is possible to get in this country or whether they represent coastal communities. I can assure them that the value of this debate was in enabling these issues to be raised and in enabling me to say that my door is always open for these issues to be raised on behalf of them and their constituents. We will get the best deal that we can in December, based on a desire to see sustainable fisheries in the future.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ms Ritchie]

I thank the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil), the Western Isles, for his intervention. [Interruption.] He is correcting my interpretation of his Gaelic, although I suppose I would be speaking in Gaeilge—in Irish.

There was reference to the misuse of mackerel by the Icelandic and Faroese, maximum sustainable yield, MPAs, TACs and quotas, and the need for a bottom-up approach.

The hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) mentioned renewables and wind energy in the Irish sea. There will be even more wind turbines in the Irish sea, if DONG Energy, Centrica and First Flight Wind get their way. I hope that they bring a lot of sustainability. It is interesting that the fishing industry involved in the Anglo-North Irish Fish Producers’ Organisation in Kilkeel is directly concerned in safeguarding those renewable operations and will gain financial assistance for the fishing industry from them. I see that as a benefit, but I also recognise that the cabling in the Irish sea, along with the MPAs, could interfere with fishing effort. I ask the Minister to take cognisance of that.

The abolition of the CFP was raised. My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South indicated that fishing should not become a party political football. I was a little afraid that Euroscepticism was getting in the way of what the fishing industry needs. I hope that we get a properly reformed CFP that reflects the needs of the fishing industry throughout the UK and ensures not only a sustainable fishery, but one that brings benefit offshore and onshore and becomes profitable for all involved, whether fish producer, fisherman, those who are part of a fish producers’ organisation or those involved in fish processing.

I welcome the Minister’s intention to negotiate for a roll-over in the nephrops quota, but there is the whole other issue of the long-term plan for cod. The Scientific, Technical and Economic Committee for Fisheries has acknowledged that the current plan is not working and that stakeholder and industry engagement is essential if a long-term solution is to be found. Obviously, the cod recovery plan has not worked and is not working, and something needs to be done. There is a view among local fishermen and fish producers’ organisations in Northern Ireland that to continue with a freeze on effort might not be a good idea, and it is important to look at that. Regionalisation in the CFP also needs to be explored.

I thank all who have contributed to the debate. We have sent a clear message to the Minister that we wish him well in his negotiations. Whether on the responsible reform of discards, developing a sustainable and economically viable quota system or dealing with regionalisation and the blunt instrument of the CFP, all of the 19 Members who contributed, as well as those who intervened, have spoken with a largely coherent voice, in a non-partisan way, which reflects the many shared interests in this area. We share many concerns. The Minister will have heard the clear interests of those in the devolved regions and, I hope, my argument that greater regionalisation is needed to sculpt a CFP sensitive to the specific concerns of fishermen who operate in the different waters throughout and around these islands.

I wish the Minister well in his negotiations, whether on CFP reform or TAC and the whole area of allocating and fixing quotas. We must remember not only the bands of fishermen and fish producers’ organisations, but those inshore, who sometimes feel that they do not always benefit from the producer organisations, because they are a small group. We must not forget that fishing should provide a sustainable future for our land and marine environment and all those who eke their living from it.

[Richard Benyon]

Before the hon. Lady concludes, as we have a couple of minutes left, may I make a point about marine protected areas? Under the two European designations, 23% of our inshore waters are protected under MPAs. I said that I thought that about 25% could be achieved by 2016, which is the date we want. We are not concerned with simply creating lines on maps or doing a numbers job. We want something meaningful.

Many hon. Members raised concerns about the impact of MPAs. We want the management to reflect the science on why the areas need protecting, which means that some activities will be prevented, but others, further up the water column or wherever, will be allowed. It is important. It is a complex area that is causing grave concern. I hope that we can develop ecological coherence around the UK; it was the thread that ran through the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 in England and Wales. I hope that we can work together to achieve that.

[Ms Ritchie]

I thank the Minister for his helpful intervention. As he said, it is important that the needs and requirements of all those involved are reflected when the MPAs are drawn up, notwithstanding the difficulties, such as the wind energy proposals and the considerable cabling in, for example, the Irish sea. There are probably other proposals. I recall a meeting with the Minister 14 months ago, where the chief executive of the ANIFPO had a detailed, layered map to show the amount of activity in the Irish sea that could contribute to a reduction in fishing effort. The MPAs therefore need the best management.

In wishing the Minister well in his negotiations, we must not forget what other Members said about health and safety and the influence of the coast guard in safeguarding fishermen and marine and coastal communities. This was a general debate about fisheries, so some Members mentioned inland fisheries, angling and abstraction. With the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), Chair of the Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, we are looking at the draft Water Bill. Yesterday, we looked—without prejudice, I should say—at the outcome of the report into it and the details on abstraction, about which we have talked to various Ministers. Decommissioning was also mentioned, but I thought that we had moved on from that, because it is about taking boats out of the fishing industry, which can be detrimental to financial outcomes.

In conclusion, I thank you, Mr Brady and all Members who contributed. I also thank the shadow Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South, and the Minister. I wish everybody well. We thank the fishing communities for their forbearance and endurance. I wish them well in the future, as we try to sculpt a common fisheries policy that reflects the needs of local fishing communities, without the top-down approach that has proved unworkable to date.

Question put and agreed to.

National Park Authorities (Elections)

Lord Benyon Excerpts

Wednesday 28th November 2012 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) on securing this debate. I do not know if any other hon. Members have two national parks in their constituency, but my hon. Friend certainly brings with him real authority on this subject. From contact that he has with me over the past two and a half years, both by letter and through parliamentary questions and other means, I know the extent of his interest in this important subject. I am grateful for this opportunity to respond to the debate.

The Government are committed to breaking down the perceived barriers between local communities and those making decisions on their behalf. As my hon. Friend mentioned, we have introduced directly elected police commissioners. There may be some doubt about the glee with which the electorate crammed themselves into the polling booths to elect them, but I feel sure that things will change over time. We also have directly elected mayors, and we have made other changes to increase local accountability. My hon. Friend is right to say that the issues we are debating today are political, as is the case with policing. They are matters of great concern to our constituents and they are vital to people in such areas who know and care about these landscapes.

Through the Localism Act 2011, the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government made changes to give more power directly to communities and individuals so that they can challenge local authorities and take over and run the community services that are so vital. This is important to both parties in this coalition Government.

This is a timely debate, as my ministerial colleagues and I are actively considering the results of our consultations on the issue. That is why I should address the points in detail. I should say something about the importance of national parks to our country and this Government. As my hon. Friend rightly said, in 1936 the then Standing Committee on National Parks lobbied the Government for measures to protect and allow access to the countryside for the benefit of the nation. That pre-war world of 1936 might seem a long time ago, and many aspects of our world are unrecognisable from that time, but some constants remain, one of which is what the national parks can offer us. We need a sense of challenge in our lives just as much our forebears did, and we need the uplift that comes from contact with nature, as they did. The parks style themselves as Britain’s breathing spaces, which is exactly what they are for their more than 50 million visitors a year from home and abroad. That is of enormous benefit to our society. Those visitors help to support more than 22,000 businesses, the vast majority of which are small or medium-sized enterprises.

My hon. Friend the Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale is absolutely right to praise the leadership of his local national parks. Whether we are talking about a parish in our constituencies or a large area such as that covered by the national parks that he knows so well, there will be issues on which there is a divergence of opinion. What might seem good to one of us might not seem so good to another, especially when dealing with something such as planning. He was right to allude to the complexity of these issues at times and to the fact that many good things that are done are not always appreciated by everyone.

The national parks continue to deliver on their two core purposes: to conserve and enhance natural beauty, wildlife and cultural heritage; and to promote opportunities for the understanding and enjoyment of the special qualities of those national parks by the public. The means we use have, of course, changed over time, and they may change again. For the first 40 years of their lives, national parks were essentially managed by local government.

[Roger Williams]

The Minister sets out the two purposes of the national parks, but the legislation also includes a duty to take into account the economic and social needs of the communities that the parks serve. Surely at the heart of this demand for democracy is a better understanding of those issues.

[Richard Benyon]

I will come on to talk about that, but it is important that the three legs of the stool of sustainability are considered at every stage: environmental, yes; economic, absolutely; as well, of course, as the social dimension the parks give to their inhabitants and visitors. My hon. Friend is absolutely right.

To turn to the main issue of the debate, the coalition’s programme for government said:

“We will review the governance arrangements of National Parks in order to increase local accountability.”

That commitment was honoured with a public consultation that ran from 9 November 2010 until 1 February 2011. The question of accountability and transparency was central to the consultation. The Government take seriously the improvement of the transparency of decision making and an increase in the accountability of national park authorities. We have made it clear that variety between authorities is possible, which would allow that governance to reflect better the national parks’ individual circumstances and histories as part of our commitment to decentralisation and localism.

Since the original legislation was enacted in 1995, there have been calls for some members of park authorities to be directly elected, which now already happens in the Scottish national parks authorities, as my hon. Friends suggested. I said in September 2011 that I had concluded that the time had come for us to explore that option more thoroughly in England, so I consulted on legislation that would allow for the possibility of elections to the national park authorities and the Broads Authority. Initially, we proposed to apply new legislation on a pilot basis in two parks, namely the New Forest—as my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) mentioned—and the Peak District. They provide different contexts in which to assess the effect of directly elected members.

First, I should be clear that although national parks cover some 9% of the country, have a population of more than 320,000 people, encompass in excess of 700 local authorities and parish councils and handle some 9,500 planning cases each year, fewer than 170 responses were received on the question of direct elections, which is a staggeringly low figure. Fewer than 40 of those responses came from individual members of the public. While a majority of responses were generally in favour, there was no clear consensus, even between parks, that direct elections were the answer to improving local accountability. As the Deputy Prime Minister recently made clear, opinion is divided.

Secondly, while much is made of the possible benefits of introducing some elected members into the national park authorities, views are divided and some practicalities need to be taken into account. The legislation required to implement direct elections would be significant, so we would need to identify a suitable opportunity in the parliamentary timetable. I must share with hon. Members the fact that such legislation would not only create a significant call on the time of the House but, as we face the reality of the financial situation, we would be bound to ask if this would really be a good use of public money. Initial estimates indicate that the costs of the proposal could run into many hundreds of thousands or even millions of pounds, although obviously there would be a full cost assessment nearer the time.

Thirdly, the consultation proposed holding pilot elections in the New Forest and Peak District national parks during May 2013. Given that we have not yet secured the required legislation, those pilots obviously will not go ahead on time. It is also clear that we cannot and should not commit to any wider programme of direct elections without piloting so that we can fully understanding what impact, if any, the changes would have on the performance of the national parks in question.

Finally, direct elections are not the only mechanism for improving accountability and openness, and some of the suggestions from the governance review are already being taken forward by individual parks. Many avenues could be explored and, in conjunction with the park authorities, we will continue to look at what can be achieved. It is also worth making the point that local authority members of a national park authority are elected members of the local authority, so they are already held accountable through the ballot box, although not to the satisfaction of some. Similarly, parish council members are sometimes elected.

[Dr Julian Lewis]

I am not entirely happy with the thrust of what the Minister is saying. Are the pilot schemes therefore on hold indefinitely? With the greatest respect to the Government, the legislative pressure on the time of the House of Commons means that it should not be impossible for such relatively uncontentious legislation to be slotted into the timetable, especially if the past few weeks are anything to go by, when we have frequently finished our business earlier than scheduled.

--- Later in debate ---

[Richard Benyon]

I am happy to share with my hon. Friend the information that I have been given about the complexity involved. I can give him my absolute solemn commitment that I think that this is something that the Government should do. I do not believe, unlike some colleagues in both our parties, that everyone down to the dog warden should be elected, but I believe in localism and local accountability, so I have been progressing things in a meaningful way.

I was surprised by the complexity of something that initially, I agree, sounds like it should be simple. However, I have been concerned about conversations that we have had with the Boundary Commission about matching boundaries, which sometimes follow more ecologically-based routes than politically-based ones, as well as about the many measures that would need to be included in a Bill. I am happy to go into more detail, but I can absolutely give my hon. Friend my commitment that if the resources were there and if we could find the parliamentary means, we would take this forward, as it is something that the coalition is firmly united in wishing to achieve. I will give him more detail at a later date.

[Tim Farron]

I am a little concerned about the direction in which the Minister is going, but I am pleased that he thinks the Government should make progress. However, we already effectively have pilots in Scotland, so we have learned what to do constitutionally and about how the impact is felt in the national parks.

There is time to act in this Parliament. When I challenged one of the Minister’s predecessors in the previous Government about this, their view was that as the national park authorities had been asked whether they wanted to be elected, and they said no, they would not be elected. Turkeys do not vote for Christmas, even though I greatly respect the high quality turkeys in the New Forest.

[Richard Benyon]

I appreciate my hon. Friend’s point, and I can only give my commitment that although we remain in favour of direct elections, we must ensure that we achieve that in the necessary time scale and with the resources we have.

It is interesting that Scottish national parks have all-postal ballot elections. When I raise potential complications, it sounds as though I am being negative, but I assure my hon. Friends that I am not. However, we need to mention the fact that there is concern about such elections.

[Roger Williams]

When I had the pleasure and privilege of going over to monitor the US elections, I was surprised to find that some US states have wholly postal ballots to elect their President.

[Richard Benyon]

My hon. Friend may like to share his thoughts with colleagues in the Cabinet Office, who are looking at greater participation in elections. After what happened two weeks ago, I want more participation in local elections, and if we could get more people voting by post, that would be good.

I was delighted to hear that the Peak District magazine Park Life recently published the names, photographs and telephone numbers of all members of that authority. That is the start of real transparency. It does not happen in every national park authority, so we must press them to look at such innovations.

In an ideal world, I would like to devolve decisions to national parks if they can prove that there is local demand, and we can introduce enabling legislation that allows them to take that forward and let a thousand flowers bloom. I assure my hon. Friend the Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale that I will keep him in touch with any progress and ensure that what we are doing is affordable for the resources in my Department, feasible in terms of the primary legislation that I am convinced that we will have to introduce, and workable locally. I assure him that the Government remain in favour—