School Meals for Children

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Wednesday 20th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of recent remarks by a head teacher in Southampton criticising the quality of school meals for children.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, I am aware of the recent remarks from a Southampton head teacher. We cannot comment on individual catering arrangements, as arrangements with particular suppliers are made at a local level. Governors and trustees are responsible for ensuring compliance with the school food standards. We encourage local authorities and schools to work with their caterers to address any quality issues when they arise, to ensure that children receive nutritious meals in school.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)]

I am grateful to the Minister for her Answer. I am grateful too to Mr Ashley for raising this issue, and to the Times and the BBC for picking up on it last week. This is a topic of great concern to all of us. One in three children now leaving primary school is overweight or obese. This, in part, links back not only to what they are eating at home but to an area where the Government have some influence and control, which is school meals. It was 2014 when the regulations were last reviewed; it is time they were looked at again. Much has changed since then. Children are eating far too much sugar these days. We need to reduce it; we need to look after their health and stop abusing them in this way. Will the Government act on that?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government believe that the school food standards are very clear. Schools must ensure that they provide children with healthy food and drink options, that they get sufficient energy and nutrition across the school day, and they clearly restrict foods that are high in fat, salt and sugar.

[The Earl of Effingham (Con)]

My Lords, in 1825 the great politician Jean Brillat-Savarin coined the phrase “You are what you eat”. It is concerning that, according to research, ultra-processed food makes up 64% of the average UK school lunch. What is the Government’s strategy to both teach and empower children to make the right food choices?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Cooking and nutrition are firmly within the national curriculum: in design and technology they are compulsory between key stages 1 and 3, they aim to teach children how to cook and the principles of healthy eating and nutrition. It is also picked up in the science curriculum; indeed, through the Oak National Academy, we funded a module on cooking and nutrition that will equip children leaving school to be able to cook at least six predominantly savoury recipes that will support a healthy diet.

[Lord Storey (LD)]

My Lords, is not the problem that the tendering process for school meals is based on cost and not quality? Of course, there is another side to school meals, and that is the famous packed lunch. The experience of teachers and head teachers of packed lunches is that they are mainly filled with bags of crisps, chocolate biscuits, fruit drinks et cetera—not necessarily fruit drinks but canned drinks. Has the Minister any idea how we can ensure that packed lunches as well become a healthy nutritional meal?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord touches on issues relating to how parents bring up their children, which is obviously delicate territory for the Government to pronounce too firmly on. Our messaging around the risks of obesity and on healthy lifestyles more broadly is obviously picked up by parents. Our family hubs also look at things such as nutrition. On the first part of his remarks, I should say that the department centrally offers a service called Get Help Buying for Schools that supports schools to negotiate high-quality and affordable catering arrangements.

[Baroness Browning (Con)]

I am very pleased to be a member of the committee sitting in this House at the moment looking at ultra-processed foods and obesity. From its evidence sessions that are in the public domain already, the diets of children in school meals, packed lunches and the food that they eat at home should worry everyone in this House. Given what my noble friend has replied today, can I gently suggest that her civil servants please follow the evidence being taken by the House?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I should clarify that I did not in any way want to diminish the importance of addressing ultra-processed foods, but the school food standards already restrict foods that are described as low-quality reformed or reconstituted foods, which include ultra-processed foods.

[Lord Hampton (CB)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as someone who has eaten more school meals than I care to mention, most of them very good, and as someone who rather unwillingly teaches food at school at the moment, where we do a lot about nutrition. However, the research from Northumbria University has found that a quarter-pint of milk a day has an enormously beneficial effect on children’s confidence and concentration and against obesity. What plans do the Government have to increase the free school milk programme?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

We know that milk is, as the noble Lord says, excellent for children’s growth and development. As part of the school food standards, lower-fat milk or lactose-reduced milk must be made available for children who want it to drink at least once a day during school hours, and it must be provided free of charge to all pupils eligible for free school meals. Schools can offer milk as many times as they wish, but it must be free to infants and benefit-based free school meal pupils when offered as part of a school meal.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, like my noble friend Lord Brooke and the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, I am a member of the Food, Diet and Obesity Committee. There are many concerning issues, one being the influence of the food industry. Can the Minister have urgent discussions with the food industry so that it fully understands the impact of high-processed foods and the need for urgent reformulation, to reduce salt and sugar in those foods and to improve the health and well-being of all our young people?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am more than happy to take that back to the department, for Ministers who are directly responsible for this area to talk to the food industry. The noble Baroness will be aware that there has been some success in reducing sugar in breakfast cereals, yoghurts, fromage frais and soft drinks. However, I share her concerns.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

Can my noble friend tell us what effect exercise has on the health of school- children?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

As my noble friend hints, exercise has a very positive impact on physical health and, crucially, on mental health.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

My Lords, anyone who saw the pictures in the newspaper article to which the Question refers will be fairly appalled at the quality of the food offered to the children. The head teacher concerned asked how hard it was to bake a potato. Is the real problem that children do not learn how to cook any more and therefore do not see jobs in institutional catering as a viable career? What action is the DfE taking to ensure that the skills exist to meet government guidelines that state that school food should be nutritious, look good and taste delicious?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am not sure whether I have to declare my interest as the mother of a chef. I think careers in hospitality are great, but I might be slightly biased. I have already responded on where food and healthy eating fit within the curriculum. We take this very seriously. The specific case that was alluded to in the media related to a PFI contract. Obviously, that gives greater constraints on the ability of a school to negotiate with, or potentially even change, suppliers.

[The Earl of Devon (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the best source of food for schools is locally sourced, sustainably grown produce from identifiable farms that have an educational relationship with the school through which they teach children how and where their food is made? If so, will she encourage local procurement of school food?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am more than happy to encourage that. Just to take it one stage further, I encourage schools that have the space to follow the example of some schools that I have visited that have their own allotments and grow some of their own food. Some of them keep chickens, for example, and eat their own eggs for breakfast. That is also a great approach.

Schools: Special Needs Pupils

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Tuesday 19th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Touhig]

To ask His Majesty’s Government how often they review the level of support given in schools to special needs pupils.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, provision is reviewed regularly through school and local area inspections. Schools must demonstrate that children with SEND achieve good outcomes in order to be judged good or outstanding. We also strengthened local area inspections in January 2023. Annually, we collect and review data on education, health and care plans, including timeliness and volumes. We have also started collecting data from local authorities on capacity in special schools, SEND units and resourced provision. We also plan to introduce new local inclusion dashboards to improve local accountability.

[Lord Touhig (Lab)]

That is most helpful indeed; I am grateful. The Children and Families Act defines a child as having special educational needs if he or she has a

“learning difficulty or disability which calls for special educational provision to be made”.

Some 69% of teachers surveyed by the Pearson school report said that our education system is ineffective in supporting these special needs pupils. They said that we need more teaching assistants, better teacher training, more resources, and most importantly, easier access to diagnostic testing. Do the Government agree?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government are acting on a number of those issues. On diagnostic testing, as the noble Lord well knows, our approach is that the child should not need a diagnosis to be eligible for support. Early identification is incredibly important, and the Government are doing a great deal to train up the early years workforce and provide more specialist educational psychologists. More broadly, the shape of special educational needs has changed a bit over the last five years, with a much greater prevalence of social, emotional and mental health needs and of children with an autism spectrum disorder, and we are working closely to address that.

[Baroness Hollins (CB)]

My Lords, 96% of education, health and care plan appeals are successful, but in less-affluent areas parents are less likely to appeal an EHCP decision, which must contribute to the current inequalities in provision. What are His Majesty’s Government doing to achieve greater equality in the support offered to all children with special educational needs?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right about the success of appeals, but I point out that just over 2.3% of all decisions went to appeal. Although the success rate is very high, the level of appeals is perhaps lower than the House might believe from the media. We are currently trying to test a range of measures that will mean that the quality of decisions—and, crucially, the confidence that parents can take in those decisions—is improved. That includes testing a single national education, health and care plan template and guidance, testing multiagency panels to improve the quality of and parental confidence in decision-making, and resolving disagreements quicker by strengthening mediation.

[The Lord Bishop of Worcester]

My Lords, I declare my interest as a parent who had to fight hard for an EHCP for his child. It is not only in deprived areas that it is very hard to be awarded an EHCP; it is certainly true in Worcestershire, where a large proportion of applications are turned down. As I was fighting through mediation, I was told by a health professional, “Remember, John, only pushy parents get EHCPs”, and that seemed to be the case. Does the Minister agree that this is shameful? Does she also agree with the LSE that the basic problem is that more money needs to be put into the system?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I tried to address some of the points that the right reverend Prelate raised in my answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins. We definitely do not want a world where only pushy parents get an EHCP; we want a world where the children who need an EHCP get one. On funding, this Government have massively increased the high-needs budget; it will be worth over £10.5 billion by 2024-25, a 60% increase on 2019-20. We are also committing significant capital to expand the number of special needs places.

[Baroness Fraser of Craigmaddie (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as chief executive of Cerebral Palsy Scotland. Does the Minister share my concern that, despite the significant increase in children with special needs, almost a third are people with an EHCP identifying autistic spectrum disorder as their primary need? A diagnosis in itself is not the be-all and end-all, particularly for umbrella terms such as autism or cerebral palsy. Can she reassure me that her department understands the importance of considering individual impairment levels to successfully sustain long-term improvements in participation?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for the work she does as chief executive of Cerebral Palsy Scotland. She raised an important point and is absolutely right. In our schools and colleges, support should be in place to address the identified need, barriers and level of impairment, as she described it, so that children and young people can not just participate but thrive in their education and preparation for adulthood. That should not be dependent on the nature of the diagnosis.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, will the Minister comment on a meeting I had earlier today, in which representatives of different ethnic groups were saying that it is much more difficult for them to get diagnosed with dyslexia? This is because the teachers do not know how to pick out dyslexia from things such as second-language problems, and the fact that those parent groups do not know that diagnosis and assessment is for them and not just for white boys.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord raises a very relevant point—the wider issue of how parents can be aware of how our special educational needs system works, feel confident in it and understand how to have conversations with their children’s teachers about any concerns they might have. That is why we have altered the initial teacher training and early career framework for teachers, as well as introducing a new national professional qualification for special educational needs co-ordinators. This is to make sure that schools can be really proactive with parents and give them the confidence to address their children’s concerns.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness has outlined a range of measures, but the truth is that there is insufficient capacity in the system. I spoke to one parent—I do not think she would mind me referring to her as a pushy parent—who has waited for 18 months and has still not had her child assessed. Given the social and the ethnic disparities mentioned by noble Lords, is the noble Baroness 100% confident that government policy and what is on track at the moment will actually meet the growing demand?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government have made a huge amount of progress, and a very significant financial commitment working closely with those on the ground. As I said, we have announced £2.6 billion between 2022 and 2025 to fund new special educational needs and alternative provision places. Together with the new free schools we have already announced, it will add 60,000 new specialist places to the system. I know the noble Baroness will appreciate that this is a very significant increase.

[Baroness Meacher (CB)]

I have a grandson with ADHD who has had little or no support from his school throughout his education. He was sitting his A-level mocks recently. He has time blindness, among many other problems, and spent the whole exam doing one question. Can the Minister take any action to make sure that children with ADHD actually receive the support they need? ADHD makes a complete havoc of a child’s education, however bright they seem to be.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am sorry to hear about the struggles of the noble Baroness’s grandson. Of course we want our schools to be well equipped to respond to a range of special educational needs and disabilities, but we also know that often those will have knock-on effects in other aspects of a child’s life. It is not just the response within the school that is crucial, but also the partnership with local health services in particular.

Independent Schools

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Monday 18th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Black of Brentwood (Con)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I declare my interest as chairman of governors at Brentwood School.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, independent schools are a small but incredibly important part of our school system. The independent sector is extremely diverse: it includes large, prestigious schools which are household names, but also many settings that serve dedicated faith communities and special schools that provide much-needed support to some of our most vulnerable pupils. The sector also brings valuable international investment to the UK, with over 25,000 pupils whose parents live abroad and who attend UK schools.

[Lord Black of Brentwood (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer. I agree with her that independent schools play a vital role, both in our education and in our economy. More than 600,000 children attend them, saving hard-pressed UK taxpayers more than £4 billion each year, because those pupils are not in the state sector. They are modern, diverse and inclusive, with a quarter of them, including many faith schools, being small schools educating fewer than 155 pupils, often with special educational needs.

Is my noble friend aware that 75% of independent schools, including schools such as Brentwood, are engaged in fantastic partnerships with the state sector and with their local communities, covering everything from well-being and sports to teacher training, and that more than 8,700 projects were delivered in the last academic year? Would she agree that imposing new tax burdens on independent schools would simply undermine such partnerships, to the detriment of thousands of children, and threaten hundreds of small schools delivering specialist provision to vulnerable pupils?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I absolutely agree with my noble friend, and I thank Brentwood School and other schools involved in the types of partnerships that he described. We have such an asset in our independent schools, and this Government are focusing on encouraging more partnership work and understanding how all our pupils can benefit from that.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, following on from the previous question, does the Minister agree that, in the perceived ideological tussle between state and private, it is sometimes education itself that is forgotten? The currently less restricted independent sector can be an incubator for forward-looking educational ideas; for instance, those of Rethinking Assessment, which submitted valuable evidence to the Education for 11-16 Year Olds Committee that school education as a whole can profit from such thinking.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I agree with the noble Earl. Independent schools have shown themselves to be areas of great innovation, but we also see important innovation in our state sector. Particularly where the two come together, we see some of the best results.

[Baroness Wilcox of Newport (Lab)]

Over nine in 10 students study at state-funded schools. Teacher recruitment is in crisis, there is poor mental health support for pupils and school buildings are collapsing. If the Government will not support Labour’s pledge to end tax breaks for private schools, can the Minister tell the House how they intend to fund solving the multitude of problems facing the state school sector?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I remind the noble Baroness that teacher numbers are at an all-time high. I do not deny that there are recruitment challenges, but it is important to be fair about the context. I also remind her that pupil funding next year will be at an all-time high in per-pupil terms. I refer her to the recent results of our pupils in the international leagues tables for both reading and maths, and the dramatic improvement in their performance over the last 14 years.

[The Lord Bishop of Worcester]

My Lords, I draw attention to my interest as president of the Woodard Corporation, one of the largest Christian education charities in the country. The noble Lord, Lord Black, drew attention to the partnership between Brentwood School and other schools in the area. That is built into the very DNA of the Woodard Corporation, with 12 private schools, six academies, 12 affiliated maintained schools and overseas schools, as schools work well together. Does the Minister agree that this mixed model, which values co-operation between different providers, is a very good one that benefits all children? Does she agree that it would be good to encourage such a model?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I absolutely agree with the right reverend Prelate. I know of a number of independent schools and their local state schools that are considering just the sort of arrangement that he described.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, many independent schools host the Combined Cadet Force, and 70 independent schools share cadet forces with local state schools. I declare an interest as a former chair of the cadet health check team. The cadets is an excellent way of teaching self-confidence, leadership, resilience and life skills. If the proposed VAT policy sees schools close and lose resources, we may lose those vital collaborations. What can be done to ensure that independent schools can continue to support these excellent cadet programmes?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

As my noble friend behind me said, vote for a Conservative Government—but the noble Baroness might not entirely agree with that, and she is obviously entitled to her views. I absolutely agree with her on the importance of schemes such as the cadets. I was in a school on Friday, where I met a number of cadets, and was very struck by the value of a programme such as that.

[Baroness Eaton (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister agree that, should Labour enter government and introduce the 20% VAT on private school fees which was mentioned earlier, it would have a massive knock-on impact on local government, specifically for local authorities that have children in care who are supported by local independent schools?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I think my noble friend is referring to children with special educational needs and disabilities. My understanding of the Opposition’s proposed policy is that children with an education, health and care plan would be exempt from the fees. However, my noble friend is right: there are almost 100,000 children in independent schools with special educational needs and without an education, health and care plan. This will push those parents into seeking an EHCP, with all the knock-on effects on local authority finances that we can see around the country.

[Lord Aberdare (CB)]

My Lords, what are the Government doing to try to close what seems to be an alarmingly growing gap between independent and state schools in the teaching of arts and creative subjects?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

There are a number of ways in which the Government are thinking about this. A number of your Lordships, including my noble friend Lord Black, have pointed to the partnerships, and I know that many independent schools work closely with their state school neighbours to ensure that facilities can be shared and giant performances are put on. Our focus on a knowledge-rich curriculum, with breadth, and on our cultural education plan will contribute to this.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, one thing is quite striking in listening to the answers in this Question. The thing that most independent schools have in common has barely been mentioned, with the possible exemption of one of the Minister’s noble friends who touched on it: almost all of them charge fees. The charging of fees is necessarily discriminatory. While I entirely applaud the efforts that independent schools are making to make available to some maintained schools some of what they have available, would the Minister agree that, none the less, the vast majority of maintained schools do not have access, particularly in arts and music but in other subjects as well, to the range, diversity and richness that are available to people who are able to pay?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Of course independent schools charge fees, which parents pay for out of income that has already been taxed. The question here is why pick on independent schools to charge VAT, rather than other forms of education such as tutoring, for example.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness made the point that the surpluses that were going to be created by raising VAT on private schools would be spent in the state sector. Does my noble friend agree that if too many independent schools close and pupils are transferred to the state sector, there will not be any surplus whatever?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

That is a real risk. Your Lordships may have seen recent research published by the Adam Smith Institute that pointed this out.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Noble Lords opposite can heckle from the Front Bench, but there is a serious question about how many parents will decide that they can no longer afford the fees. Given how a school’s cost structure works, it takes only a few parents, particularly in a smaller school, for that school to have to close for all pupils.

Gender Recognition (Approved Countries and Territories and Saving Provision) Order 2023

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Monday 18th March 2024 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Barran]

That the draft Order laid before the House on 6 December 2023 be approved. Considered in Grand Committee on 12 March.

Motion agreed.

Earnings: Mothers and Fathers

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Wednesday 13th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sikka]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the research by campaign group Pregnant Then Screwed showing that mothers in the United Kingdom earned £4.44 less an hour than fathers in 2023.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, data on the gender pay gap is collected by the Office for National Statistics and published annually, with the latest results published in November 2023. These showed that the pay gap between men and women in full-time work aged 30 to 39, which is the average age of parents when they first have children, was 4.7% in 2023, down from 11% in 1997. The publication does not include information on pay gaps between mothers and fathers, and this information is not included in any routine publication of the ONS. The results of the analysis and the data and methods that were used by the group Pregnant Then Screwed have not been published; the Government are therefore unable to assess their basis.

[Lord Sikka (Lab)]

My Lords, my Question is about the motherhood penalty, which is also a major cause of child poverty. The 2016 survey by the Equality and Human Rights Commission reported that 77% of working mothers experienced discrimination during pregnancy and maternity leave and on return from maternity leave. The Minister said that the Government do not have any information. Why not? Why do the Government not collect any data about pregnancy and maternity discrimination suffered by women? In the absence of that information, how can they eradicate that discrimination?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I think the noble Lord might want to look again at what I said. I absolutely did not say that the Government do not gather any information on discrimination. Our domestic law on maternity discrimination is absolutely clear: discriminating against women in the workplace because they are pregnant or new mothers is unlawful.

[The Earl of Effingham (Con)]

To paraphrase Christine Lagarde from the European Central Bank, if Lehman Brothers had been “Lehman Sisters”, we may have avoided a global financial crisis. We need more female representation on boards of companies and we need more female CEOs. Can the Minister say what focus the Government are placing on a voluntary, business-led approach to setting targets that will see more women in leadership roles?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for his question. We can all imagine how successful “Lehman Sisters” would still be. The Government have long supported an independent, business-led, voluntary approach to increasing the participation of women in senior roles, both in relation to start-ups, with the Rose review, and, most recently, with the FTSE Women Leaders Review, which has set new voluntary targets for the FTSE 350 for both board and leadership representation.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, there is general agreement that key to reducing the pay gap between mothers and fathers is more fathers taking parental leave. The Government’s shared parental leave scheme has been an abysmal failure. What are the Government going to do about it?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I do not accept that it has been an abysmal failure. I appreciate that the numbers are still modest, but they are definitely going in the right direction, with 13,000 couples taking shared parental leave in 2021-22, up from 6,200 in 2015-16. Clearly, this is part of a broader cultural shift. The noble Baroness may wish the Government to enforce everything, but this Government do not wish to.

[Baroness Janke (LD)]

My Lords, 90% of single parents are women, and 49% of these families are in poverty. Universal credit discriminates against single parents by requiring those with children over three to work a 30-hour week, regardless of their circumstances. What steps will the Government take to end discrimination suffered by single-parent families under universal credit so that their children are not forced into acute poverty and deprivation through unfairness and discrimination?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government have made tremendous strides, particularly in relation to the national living wage and the increases that we have seen in that in real terms since the Government came to power in 2010.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister and I both know what the law says about pregnancy and maternity, but the facts are that 54,000 women a year lose their job because they are pregnant and another 390,000 working mums are discriminated against or experience negative treatment, and these numbers have doubled in the last decade. On these Benches, we have a plan to deal with unfair dismissal, denial of flexible working requests and a failing parental leave system; “modest” is a very kind way of describing the Government’s parental leave system. Do the Government have a plan, and in what timeframe?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I have touched already on issues of maternity and pregnancy discrimination. The Government have already extended legal protections on redundancy and the DBT’s Pregnancy and Maternity Discrimination Advisory Board is ensuring that all our guidance is clear and fit for purpose.

[Lord Woodley (Lab)]

My Lords, to pick up the previous question, the Equality Act 2010 prohibits discrimination on the grounds of maternity. The Body Shop sacked 750 workers without any notice or redundancy package, and the company admits it broke the law. The sacked workers include 15 women on maternity leave, who will now receive only government maternity pay and not full redundancy packages, which they should really be entitled to. What assessment, therefore, have the Government made that will make sure that this flouting of employment law does not continue?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Clearly, such cases are extremely regrettable. I can only repeat what I have already said: the law is absolutely clear on this, as are the routes to redress.

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)]

My Lords, surely the law is flawed, because it leaves it to individual women to enforce the law themselves. We do not do this for school standards, food standards, environmental standards, and so on. It is asking too much, surely, to expect an individual woman to find out what her colleagues are being paid and then sue her employer. Surely there is a role for the state in investigating and enforcing equality law.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

This is the third time in fairly short order that the noble Baroness and I have touched on this important subject. As she knows— I know she believes this is not sufficient, but to be clear—the law already protects people who want to have these crucial conversations about pay with their colleagues. We are seeing that people are increasingly open in discussing their salaries, and the Government welcome this shift. There were, of course, a number of cases: over 2,500 equal pay claims were entered into the employment tribunal system between July and September last year, and each one of those is an important reminder to employers of their legal obligations.

[The Lord Bishop of Leicester]

My Lords, the same report from Pregnant Then Screwed also found that a significant proportion of new fathers and secondary parents simply cannot afford to take their full paternity leave because of the low level of statutory paternity pay. Most other European countries have far more generous paternity leave entitlements than the UK’s, in both length and pay, which bring benefits for family bonds and support gender equality. Will the Government commit to increasing the statutory leave entitlement so that families in the UK can also reap these benefits?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I say two things to the right reverend Prelate. First, statutory leave and pay is only part of the state support available to new families in the first year of their child’s life. The Government also have provisions in place such as tax credits, child benefit and universal credit. We continue to believe that arrangements for paternity leave and pay are best left to employers. I appreciate that this is somewhat old research, from 2016, but it found that fathers who work full-time experience a wage bonus, earning 22% more than similar men without children who are working full-time.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, it is commendable that the Government have done something to improve pension outcomes for women, who are particularly disadvantaged given that they automatically have lower lifetime earnings, due to caring roles, but is there anything further that the Government might be able to do? Perhaps there could be some kind of review of the overall lifetime earnings patterns of women who have to care both for children and older relatives in other stages of their life so that the disadvantage might be remedied in some way, either by contributions from a partner, which are currently not encouraged, or by some other mechanism.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I very much welcome my noble friend’s suggestion in this regard, and I share her belief that greater transparency and more data to help understand the issues are really helpful. I will take her suggestions back to the department.

Gender Recognition (Approved Countries and Territories and Saving Provision) Order 2023

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Tuesday 12th March 2024 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Barran]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Gender Recognition (Approved Countries and Territories and Saving Provision) Order 2023.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, this statutory instrument updates the list of countries and territories from which citizens are eligible to use the fast-track recognition process to obtain a gender recognition certificate. We laid the statutory instrument before the House on 6 December 2023. Subject to parliamentary approval, this will be the first time that the approved overseas countries and territories list has been updated since July 2011.

The Statement given by my right honourable friend the Minister for Women and Equalities on 6 December in the House of Commons generated a wide debate. The Commons Committee debate touched on the importance of communicating these changes clearly. It is important that everyone understands why we are updating this international gender recognition process, and that includes our colleagues internationally. Importantly, this debate is focused on the details of the SI and our need to make this update.

We are making these changes because the Government believe that it should not be possible for a person who would not satisfy the criteria to obtain legal gender recognition through the standard route under UK legislation to use the overseas recognition route to obtain a UK GRC. This would damage the integrity and credibility of the process of the GRA. There have been many changes in the international approach to gender recognition since the list was last updated in 2011. We have provided details of overseas countries and territories to be removed and added to the list laid on 6 December, which is available to view on legislation.gov.uk.

We have undertaken thorough checks, in collaboration with the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office, to verify our understanding of each overseas system in question and have measured them against the UK’s standard route to obtain gender recognition. My right honourable friend the Minister for Women and Equalities and the Minister for Equalities have both engaged extensively with posts, including those in the USA, Canada and Australia. I am confident that the international community understands the extent of the changes and their impacts on their citizens.

The overseas route to obtaining a gender recognition certificate sees low volumes of applicants. Of the 370 total applications in the last quarter, only 4% used the overseas route. Of the 7,043 applications received since 2009-10, 94% were standard applications and 5% were overseas applications. The impact on transgender people in this country and abroad will be minimal and this update brings the overseas route back in line with the standard route, allowing for more equality in application requirements.

Finally, it is extremely important to ensure parity with those who have taken the UK standard route to obtaining a gender recognition certificate. It would not be fair for the overseas route to be based on less rigorous requirements and consequently for the certificate to be acquired more easily. I beg to move.

[Lord Henley (Con)]

Before the Front-Benchers intervene, I wondered if I could ask my noble friend a question.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for participating in this short debate. I accept that the views expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, come from her own perspective, but her description of this Government’s records on human rights is not something that I recognise personally. I hope that, in my opening remarks, I was able to provide the Grand Committee with some clarity on the purpose and effects of this legislation.

I will try to take some of the questions from the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, in turn. She asked about our international engagement and how other countries would be aware of these changes. Diplomatic posts have been notified of the changes. We provided them with comprehensive question and answer documents that address potential misconceptions about what this statutory instrument does. We have worked very closely at ministerial and official levels with the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office throughout the process, and we are monitoring the international reaction to the legislation.

The noble Baroness remarked on the delay in this work. I can only agree with her that it is overdue. We have delivered on other commitments, such as the reduction in the fee. There is no firm date for the next update of the list; we have said that we will review it frequently.

The noble Baroness also asked about how we are applying the criteria. As outlined in the Explanatory Notes to Section 2(4) of the Gender Recognition Act 2004, we have determined the phrasing “at least as rigorous” to mean, in this instance, that the criteria must match the UK legal gender recognition process. This has been applied consistently across every country and territory. Where there have been equivalences that are compliant with the UK system, we have acknowledged those, too. The full list of criteria used for this update can be found in the Explanatory Memorandum to the draft order on the legislation section of GOV.UK.

My noble friend Lord Henley asked specifically about Iran. The detail that we have on the Iranian legislation is that it goes beyond our criteria. He asked whether we had reviewed that; my assumption is yes, but if there is anything different from that, I will write to him to clarify.

The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, asked about the impact on outstanding applications that are in process. This is not retrospective so, if people have started the process and were eligible formerly, they would still be granted a certificate.

The noble Baroness asked about the feedback from Northern Ireland and Scotland. Obviously, we had to consult with them ahead of laying the instrument. There was no comment from the Northern Ireland Administration, and the Scottish Administration had some criticisms of the Government’s approach, which is perhaps unsurprising given their approach to this issue.

I think I have answered most of the noble Baronesses’ questions, but we will check in Hansard and—

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

What about Germany?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The legislation in Germany has not yet been passed. The noble Baroness alluded to this—forgive me; it was on my list.

As a team within the equalities hub, we remain very open to discussing these topics and some of the wider policies that both noble Baronesses raised.

Motion agreed.

Higher Education

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Thursday 7th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, I join noble Lords in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, on securing this very important debate and thank him for the way he introduced it. I underline how both personally and on behalf of the Government I absolutely share his aspiration that there should be equal opportunity for every young person to access the benefits of higher education. I am not sure whether I am meant to declare this, but I am the slightly bemused recipient of an honorary degree from the University of Bath.

I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this important debate. Our world-leading higher education sector plays a pivotal role in driving economic prosperity, creating employment opportunities and supporting the local communities that are the foundation of our levelling-up agenda. To reassure my noble friend Lord Willetts, I say that the Government accept that there are definitely different models of higher education. Indeed, we are investing in a number to encourage this diversity. We had a great example from the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, regarding Teesside University and some others. I also absolutely agree with my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth that there is a wider social good that universities bring to their students and more widely to their communities.

As we have heard from noble Lords this afternoon, England’s higher education system already stands at the forefront globally, and it is imperative that we sustain this position. We should be proud that more than 40% of UK adults have achieved level 6 qualifications equivalent to a bachelor’s degree or above, surpassing other G7 nations and exceeding the OECD and EU averages, although I hear my noble friend Lord Johnson’s aspirations to go further. We continue to invest in our higher education system. Our latest reforms are introducing stringent controls to ensure that higher education courses deliver positive outcomes for all students and for taxpayers.

The noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, and the noble Viscount, Lord Chandos, talked about the importance of the quality of courses and I think a number of noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman of Darlington, criticised the Government for some of the language used about the range in their quality. I would say from talking to universities that they share our view that it is incredibly important that we maintain quality in our higher education sector. That is hard to do—I absolutely recognise the pushback from noble Lords—but if we were to have evidence of poor-quality courses, that would risk besmirching the reputation of all our universities, as well as impacting on international students and the soft power to which noble Lords alluded.

Reference was made to the report in the Times. I suppose that the nuanced version of the balance of our great institutions and where we are focusing to ensure that quality is maintained does not make such good headlines.

We also recognise the central importance of technical and further education in delivering the key skills needed for economic growth. The Government’s reform agenda, outlined in the Skills for Jobs White Paper and subsequent legislation, aims to strengthen this sector by putting employers at the heart of post-16 skills through an integrated offer that includes T-levels, higher technical qualifications, apprenticeships—including, of course, degree apprenticeships—and improved support and guidance. The noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, referred to a number of those points in his remarks about the importance of links with employers. We have really tried to weave that through all our skills reforms.

I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, is reassured a little by a number of the T-levels, which directly address some of the points that he raised. We will introduce T-levels in craft and design, and media broadcast and production, from September this year. There is, of course, a digital production design and development T-level as well.

My noble friend Lord Patten made the case strongly for degree apprenticeships. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State would certainly agree with him vehemently, given her experience as a degree apprentice. I will come in a moment to respond to my noble friend Lord Willetts’s points about the funding of degree apprenticeships going forward.

Our comprehensive reforms are supported by a substantial investment of £3.8 billion over the course of this Parliament. Specifically, £185 million in 2023-24 and £285 million in 2024-25 will address recruitment and retention challenges faced by colleges offering high-value technical, vocational and academic programmes—something which the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, was concerned about. This investment ensures that higher and further education training aligns with employer needs and empowers individuals to enter the workforce, progress and develop new skills continually through their lives. This skills development is imperative, because we know that one-third of labour productivity growth can be directly attributed to skill level improvements. Enhancing our workforce’s competence will help drive economic growth right across the country.

The noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone, asked about progress with the university enterprise zones. She will know that in October 2023, the Government invested £60 million in the regional innovation fund, which is obviously about aspiring to similar outcomes in driving regional business engagement and growth through knowledge exchange. But we have a number of pilot university enterprise zones: 24 of them were set up between 2015 and 2019 and are currently being evaluated for their impact.

Turning to research and development, higher education providers contribute significantly to the UK’s current R&D efforts by delivering a massive proportion of the UK’s current research and development expenditure. Our universities deliver 77.5% of the UK’s non-business R&D and innovation activities, which is significantly more than in other comparable countries. For example, in France the figure is 59.8%, in Germany it is 55.2%, and in the United States it is 46.5%.

The noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, made the very wise point that R&D should not be seen only in terms of its immediate pay-off. One of the things that university R&D does is stimulate private investment. This is incredibly important for growth. Public spending on R&D is at its highest-ever level, and we are fulfilling our commitment to spend £20 billion per annum by 2024-25, in the knowledge that every £1 of public expenditure leverages double the amount of private investment in the long run.

This record wider investment is a key part of how the Government are delivering the long-term change to ensure that our country has the brightest possible future, growing the economy and improving opportunity for all. This most recent investment builds on the £137 billion we have invested in R&D across all parts of the UK in the last decade.

As noble Lords have illustrated, we are home to a world-class research community. We have thriving technology and life sciences sectors, excellent green skills and a fantastic creative sector. Those sectors help us lead Europe in terms of investment, particularly in relation to science and technology. We are focused on ensuring that we have the right skills for the future, the right conditions for start-ups and scale-ups, and the right regulatory environment that supports innovation and long-term business confidence.

We know that we have ground to make up compared with France, Germany and the US on productivity. Although the global financial crisis triggered an international productivity slowdown, the UK suffered a greater slowdown than some of those nations. Our investment in research and development, our reforms to higher technical education and our drive to increase participation in degree apprenticeships will all drive the change needed to fill this missing middle in our skills landscape and improve our productivity. My noble friend Lord Johnson of Marylebone referred to this.

Employers are demanding level 4 and level 5 skills to fill vacancies, yet only 4% of people have a level 4 or level 5 qualification as their highest qualification by the age of 25. Higher technical qualifications, approved to provide the skills employers need, will help to improve the prestige, profile and uptake of these valuable skills.

On funding growth in degree apprenticeships, which my noble friend Lord Willetts asked about, we are providing an additional £40 million in the next two financial years to support providers to expand their offer and improve access for young people and disadvantaged groups to these valuable programmes. Overall, investment in the apprenticeship system in England will increase to £2.7 billion by 2024-25. As I know my noble friend knows, 65% of all apprenticeship starts so far this year have been at level 2 and level 3, with level 3 remaining the most popular level, accounting for 43% of all apprenticeship starts.

The noble Baroness, Lady Garden, asked about evidence of encouraging adults back into education. Of course, it is too early to see the impact of the lifelong learning entitlement, but we can see tens of thousands of people taking our skills bootcamps, particularly in future-facing skills such as digital and data.

Levelling up was the focus of the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox of Newport, and the noble Lord, Lord Watson of Invergowrie. Despite the noble Lord’s remarks, levelling up remains at the heart of the agenda to build back better after the pandemic and to deliver better productivity for every part of the UK. As noble Lords know very well, ability is evenly spread in education but opportunity is not. The department’s focus on levelling up differences in the quantity and quality of human capital between different parts of the country is essential; we know that this is the single most important factor in driving differences in productivity over time.

The noble Lord, Storey, spoke eloquently about the importance of skills, and he is right. To help improve people’s lives and boost the economy, the Government’s skills mission sets out an ambition for 200,000 more people to complete high-quality training in England each year by 2030. This includes 80,000 more people completing courses in areas of England with the lowest skills level. We want to make sure we are raising skills levels in the places they are needed most, so that more people have the skills that they need to get good jobs.

As the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, articulated, the higher education sector is one of the major partners in delivering the research and development levelling-up mission through hubs of research and innovation. The Department for Science, Innovation and Technology is leading delivery of the research and development levelling-up mission—a cross-government commitment to increase domestic public investment in R&D outside the greater south-east by at least 40% by 2030 and, over the spending review period, by at least one-third.

We are supporting this through ambitious programmes such as the innovation accelerators, investing £100 million to support Glasgow, Greater Manchester and the West Midlands to become major centres for research and innovation, bringing together higher education with local government and business leaders. The programme is pioneering a new model of research and development decision-making that empowers local leaders to harness innovation in support of regional economic growth. Strengthening innovation clusters is a top priority for driving growth across the UK. As many noble Lords said, universities, as anchor institutions, play a crucial role in this, creating a pipeline of skilled graduates, attracting talent and investment, spinning out innovative firms, and catalysing collaboration across the local ecosystem.

The noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, was critical of the Government’s record on spin-outs and university commercialisation. This surprises me, because, looking at the data, we see that the number and value of equity investments secured by academic spin-outs has increased from just over £1 billion in 2014-15 to comfortably over £5 billion in 2021-22. If you consider the research resource, UK universities generate more income from intellectual property, and only slightly fewer spin-outs, than US universities.

A number of noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Bilimoria and Lord Parekh, my noble friend Lord Vaizey and the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, talked about international students. My noble friend Lord Norton of Louth asked me to confirm our commitment to our extraordinarily successful international education strategy—that remains firm.

The noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, was generous enough to say that I had already said this, but I shall say it one more time: international undergraduate student numbers have grown in recent years, but not at the expense of domestic undergraduate numbers. Most international entrants to the UK higher education system are at postgraduate level.

The noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, asked about taking international students out of the migration statistics. Net migration is a demographic measure, and it can always be derived even if we were to take students out, but that is ultimately a decision for the Office for National Statistics.

In closing, I want to mention the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, who put in a far more sophisticated way than I am about to do some of the wider reflections on the role of higher education as we look forward in a rapidly changing world. Historically—when I was lucky enough to be at university—models of higher education facilitated, in effect, a smaller number of more privileged students to achieve university places and go on to very well-paid and high-status careers. The inequalities of those models have rightly been challenged, including by the reforms of the Blair Government, with that focus on widening participation.

Of course, higher education is a vital part of social mobility. However, as we continue to support, we must also challenge the higher education sector as participation widens to make sure that we do not lose that focus on quality, on employability and on good outcomes for all its learners. The noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, raised wider questions, but while higher education plays a critical role in growth and productivity both nationally and regionally, it needs to be part, and is part, of a wider growth strategy that addresses the worsening trends in inactivity in the working-age population, the levels of investment across the economy, and the education and careers that our children and young people deserve. That is where this Government are focusing.

Schools (Mental Health Professionals) Bill [HL]

Baroness Barran Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 1st March 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, I also offer my congratulations to the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler of Enfield, on securing a Second Reading for her Bill. I thank all those noble Lords who shared their personal experiences of how the mental health issues of their children and wider families have had an impact on them. I join noble Lords in recognising the extraordinary job that our schools do in supporting pupils every single day and, of course, I thank those charities that work in our schools and outside them to support young people.

I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Wyld for stressing the importance of good attendance as a protective factor for children’s mental health. As she rightly said, the Government approach this with a very caring intention. There must be boundaries around it as well as consequences in certain cases where children do not attend and parents facilitate that without good reason. The intention is clear. Of course, enabling children and young people to thrive is a priority for this Government, which is why we actively explore approaches that could improve young people’s mental health and well-being.

Of course, I welcome the noble Baroness’s tireless commitment to ensuring that mental health support is available for all children, but I must express reservations about this Bill. As the noble Baroness acknowledged, most schools already have in place mental well-being provision, including counsellors, educational psychologists and pastoral support staff. All of those can play a valuable role, but maintaining a school’s flexibility to choose what works best for its pupils is paramount. For instance, depending on their needs, not all children will benefit from specific mental health interventions such as psychotherapeutic counselling. Schools are well placed to decide which approach will be most effective, drawing on specialists where necessary.

Beyond this, it is important to reiterate that schools are not health services and should not be expected to act like one in terms of managing specialist staff. They may choose to do so where they have appropriate expertise, but we believe that our current approach, which encourages collaboration with specialist services where appropriate, avoids putting the extra role and burden on schools that the Bill would involve.

On the co-ordination between the health service and schools, my noble friend Lord Jackson of Peterborough asked, specifically in relation to Tourette’s syndrome, whether there is co-ordination between the two departments. We are more broadly taking a joint approach to workforce planning and reforms to the special educational needs and AP systems. There is an implementation board, chaired jointly by Education Ministers and Health Ministers.

Returning to our schools, our aim is for schools to be a place where positive well-being is promoted and mental health difficulties are picked up on early, with referral to specialist services as needed—an aim that is being pushed forward through our programme of grants for senior mental health leads in schools and colleges and the continuing rollout of mental health support teams. My noble friend Lady Berridge asked about the take-up of grants for senior leaders in different areas, including whether schools with particularly high levels of disadvantage had lower take-up. I do not have that specific data for her, but we know that lower take-up has been seen in London, the east Midlands and the east of England, so we are working hard there to encourage higher take-up.

The Government’s focus, as many noble Lords have advocated, is to support schools to develop a whole-school approach. That wider approach to well-being works alongside more specialist support, which is why we agree with the spirit of the Bill, if not its specificity. That is why we have a comprehensive plan to roll out mental health support teams, including access to education and mental health practitioners, who deliver interventions and support schools to develop their whole-school approach.

The noble Lord, Lord Storey, asked whether there was more focus on mental health in the initial teacher training and early career framework. The very recently updated framework, published in the past few weeks, has a much greater integration of special educational needs and disabilities, including mental health within that. We expect these teams to cover at least 50% of pupils by April 2025.

We come to the issue of funding, which a number of noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, mentioned. He will understand very well that it takes time to train mental health professionals. Although I absolutely acknowledge and share the urgency that noble Lords have expressed this afternoon, it is important that we learn from early intervention to make sure that the support team model is as effective as possible—but we are also trying to co-ordinate and take a responsible approach to rollout, working with NHS England to make sure that we do not draw professionals away from the wider mental health workforce, which clearly would not be desirable.

We are also building on the learning from the independent evaluation of the Green Paper programme and data and intelligence from the ground, which will help to shape future delivery. One of the strengths of the mental health support teams is that they are an NHS service focused on supporting schools and pupils in a responsive way. That need for it to feel human, as I think my noble friend Lady Wyld phrased it—the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, also referred to the difficulty that people sometimes have in navigating these systems—is absolutely critical. They are specifically trained to do that, and to build those links between sectors.

It is also true that even a significant number of additional staff in mental health support teams cannot provide all the help that pupils need, which is why the range of pastoral support and early interventions that schools already provide, including drawing on counsellors and educational psychologists, is so important. We have been working with the mental health support teams to make sure that they support that provision and do not displace it. But we are concerned that, by specifying just two types of professional support, the Bill is likely to constrain the range of support options that pupils can benefit from, which I know is not the noble Baroness’s intention.

We have also committed to offering all state schools and colleges a grant to train a senior mental health lead by 2025, enabling them to introduce effective whole-school approaches. More than 15,000 settings and the great majority of secondary schools have claimed a grant so far. This training and associated support equip schools to offer the right support from the full range of sources, making the best use of their funding.

[Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)]

I do not know whether I picked this up correctly, but I think the Minister said that all schools would have access to mental health support teams by 2025. I thought the figure the Government were aiming for was 50%. Have I got that wrong?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

There are two different elements, and I apologise to the noble Lord if I was not absolutely clear. He is quite right that with the mental health support teams we aim to cover 50% of schools by April 2025. What I was referring to just now was the senior mental health lead training, so that there will be a senior mental health lead in every school, supporting staff in their response and giving them confidence to respond to children, which we know is so vital.

My noble friend Lady Berridge referred to children in secure mental health institutions. I will write to her. We are reviewing and redesigning provision to support the move to more community-based provision closer to home—a concern that my noble friend rightly raised. I am not aware of whether there is updated data on this but if there is, I will share it with my noble friend and put a copy in the House Library.

In conclusion, we believe that, to continue to support children and young people, rather than having a new set of requirements in schools, we should continue with the rigorous implementation of the evidence-based approach exemplified by the mental health support teams and the senior mental health leads. For that reason, we cannot support the noble Baroness’s Bill.

Skill Shortages in Business and Industry

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Wednesday 28th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Storey]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the skill shortages affecting business and industry.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, one-third of UK vacancies are due to skills shortages. Sectors with large shortages include construction, information technology and communications. This Government have committed to developing a world-leading skills system that delivers the skills that employers need through T-levels, apprenticeships, skills bootcamps and higher technical qualifications. Where there are key shortages, we have introduced programmes such as the construction and digital bootcamps to increase the supply of people with the right skills.

[Lord Storey (LD)]

I thank the Minister for that helpful Answer. Since this Oral Question was tabled, I have been shocked by the number of employers who have written to me. The Heat and Building Business Council says the UK has faced significant challenges in attracting engineers, despite substantial salary increases of up to 35%, which of course contribute to rising costs for the clean heat sector that are ultimately passed on to the consumer. How do we encourage young talent to consider engineering and green technologies as a secure path for the future?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am sure the noble Lord will agree that many young people are attracted to working in areas that will address climate change, environmental issues and sustainability, but they might not always make the association with those engineering roles as opposed to some others. We are working with business through our Green Jobs Delivery Group, and with the Green Apprenticeships and Technical Education Advisory Panel, making sure that our standards map on to those occupations and that that is backed by great careers advice for young people.

[Lord Blunkett (Lab)]

My Lords, last week, the Labour Force Survey had a set of statistics that I find staggering—namely, that 850,000 16 to 25 year-olds are not in education, employment or training. Do the Government have any plans, perhaps next week, to give flexibility to the apprenticeship levy, so that we can train and employ these young people?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

About half of apprenticeships are taken up by young people under the age of 24. I think the noble Lord referred to 21, but it splits at about half under 24 and half above that. The Government have done a great deal: investing in 16 to 19 education, improving the range of options and introducing qualifications that are directly linked to the careers that young people need.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, I did not hear the Minister mention the creative industries, which certainly suffer from skills shortages in many areas. Looking at this issue in the round, does the Minister agree that cuts to the arts—such as, for instance, the proposed 100% cut in local authority funding for the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra—are the worst possible advert for attracting skilled workers into the creative industries?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

As the noble Earl knows, one reason why there are skills shortages in the creative industries is their very rapid growth rate. Between 2010 and 2019, they grew one and a half times faster than the wider economy, and in 2021 they employed 2.3 million people, which is a 49% increase on 2011. We have created flexi-job and accelerated apprenticeships, and improved the transfer system, particularly aiming to support our world-beating creative industries.

[Lord Lilley (Con)]

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the United Nations International Labour Organization warned that a

“temporary … shortage … of trained native workers, can … be made … permanent by the attempting a quick fix from migrant labor. Any program which imports migrants into a sector whose employers are complaining of insufficient trained natives, can be expected to exacerbate (rather than alleviate) its native shortage”?

Since Tony Blair ignored that warning, we have imported millions of workers—

[Lord Lilley (Con)]

We have. As the ILO predicted, shortages have got worse, even though Members opposite want to deny the facts. When will we abandon this failed policy and start training and paying our own people better?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

As my noble friend well knows, we have introduced a points-based immigration system, making sure that we can focus on the brightest and the best to make a positive contribution to our economy. But my noble friend is quite right that we need to invest in a way that promotes productivity and creates great careers and livelihoods for all our people.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that one part of the answer to this is to stop losing so many of our best and brightest young people, who may be emigrating to look for work? Do the Government have any system at all for tracking such people to make sure that they have opportunities to come back for the appropriate jobs when those jobs are available?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am aware that we are doing a great deal of work to try to understand some of the issues that the noble Lord rightly raises, and which are particularly acute in some of our shortage occupations. I am not aware whether we track specifically how to encourage people to return, but I will take that back to the department.

[Baroness Wilcox of Newport (Lab)]

Apprenticeship schemes are essential for developing vital skills in young people, yet in the last decade apprenticeship starts have fallen by one-third, while over £1 billion raised by the apprenticeship levy goes unspent every year. Does the Minister accept that the apprenticeship levy requires a total revision of how companies are encouraged to offer apprenticeships?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Apprenticeship starts fell because we had to do so much work with what we inherited as an apprenticeship system to make sure that we offered the quality that employers required. I do not agree that the apprenticeship levy requires a major overhaul. In the last two years, the levy has effectively been fully spent; where it is not spent by levy-paying employers, either they can spend 25% of the levy on companies within their own supply chains, so enhancing that productivity, or it can be spent by small and medium-sized enterprises. I wonder what the noble Baroness would say to them if her party was to be elected and go through with its proposed policy.

[Baroness Morgan of Cotes (Con)]

My Lords, as chair of the East Midlands Institute of Technology and of the national Careers & Enterprise Company, I think my noble friend is somewhat selling this Government’s achievements short in support for training, skills and careers advice. Does she agree that the important thing now is to make sure that the system—a strengthening system—continues, including working with the local skills improvement partnerships?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I would never want to sell this Government’s achievements short. I absolutely agree with my noble friend’s point about working with local skills improvement partnerships and getting a sense of where the emerging opportunities are in each area of the UK.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, would the Government agree that we have a shortage of traditional level 4 and 5 skills in our skills package? This is dealt with by local skills partnerships, but we have a national problem. What are we doing to make sure that people become aware of training opportunities on a national level, not just locally, because there are well-paid jobs to be had?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I have already talked about some of the things we are doing. It is important that people know what options and opportunities are available in their local area, and the LSIPs are critical for that. In particular, the Government have invested up to £300 million in a network of 21 institutes of technology, which are providing exactly the kind of higher technical education to which the noble Lord refers.

[Baroness Wolf of Dulwich (CB)]

My Lords, the Government’s figures indicate that fewer than one apprenticeship in five is in a shortage occupation. Given those figures, is it really plausible that no changes are needed in the apprenticeship levy?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I hope I did not suggest that no changes are needed. What employers need and want is a degree of stability in the apprenticeship system. We have done a huge amount of work, and the noble Baroness has been a critical part of achieving that, in improving our apprenticeships system. I am not suggesting that there is not some tweaking required—the noble Baroness is a great expert on that. Broadly, stability for our employers is vital, so that they know how they can use the levy and that it will be here to stay.

Gender Pay Gap

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Tuesday 27th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Thornton]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have to speed up progress on closing the gender pay gap.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, the gender pay gap has fallen by approximately a quarter in the last decade. It was a Conservative Government who introduced gender pay gap reporting, building on the robust equal pay protections already in the Equality Act. This has motivated employers to look at their pay data and improve workplace equality. To accelerate progress we have supported legislation to enhance flexible working, extend redundancy protection for those on maternity leave and introduce carers’ leave.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for that Answer and particularly welcome the flexible working initiative. Given those endeavours, have the Government made any assessment of how quickly we might bring forward the expected date of 2044 for getting to equal pay? I invite the Minister to support the Labour policy that we should enshrine in law a full right to equal pay for black, Asian and ethnic-minority people, and disabled people, phasing this in to help employers. Does the Minister think that is a good idea?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

In response to the noble Baroness’s first question, as she understands very well, a number of factors influence how quickly the gender pay gap will decline. Obviously, there is so much research now on the value of a diverse workforce and how that improves profitability and competitiveness; we hope it will accelerate. In relation to ethnicity pay gap reporting, the noble Baroness will be aware that this gap is 2.3%, much smaller than the gender pay gap. We are working on promoting our guidance on how to address this through employer groups. In relation to disability reporting, following the successful court action we are reviewing our responses to the consultation.

[Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the value of any employee should be based on the contribution that they will make to the organisation, not what they were earning before? Research by the charity Fawcett found that 61% of job applicants asked about previous salary history said that it damaged their confidence to negotiate a better salary. Does she not agree that this requirement bakes in gender, race and disability inequality and prevents people on lower salaries ever making the salary strides they need?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Those were some of the questions we explored in our pay transparency pilot, which looked at the impact of requiring employers to put salary information into their job recruitment advertisements and not asking about previous salaries. We plan to publish the methodology for that so that employers can adopt it. We will also do more work to look at the challenges of implementation.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

Does my noble friend the Minister share my concern about the gender pay gap in pensions, which just accumulates in historical terms to create a very serious problem in the future?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My noble friend is absolutely right. Last June, DWP published an official measure of the gender pensions gap, which is currently 35% in private pensions. The reforms that we brought in will mean that 3 million women will benefit by more than £550 per year by 2030 and that the gender pensions gap will equalise by the early 2040s—more than 10 years earlier than under previous legislation.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

My Lords, following the previous supplementary question, I think the Minister was referring to achieving equality in state pensions. The big problem—and what is leading to most of the gender pension gap—is the difference in the caring responsibilities, with most unpaid care undertaken by women. The Minister is correct that the Government have identified the problem; can she give a commitment to come up with a worthwhile solution?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

As I have already said, the Government are working on a number of different aspects of this. Obviously, a critical part in relation to maternity leave—and the impact that, as the noble Lord rightly says, one can see on the gender pay gap —is our huge commitment to expanding the childcare offer, so that no women will be unable to return to work for lack of childcare support.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government have just produced a list of employers that paid below the minimum wage, in some cases for many years. Does this not show that we need stronger enforcement powers and more people checking that employers are doing their duty and paying their workers correctly?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

If I have understood correctly—forgive me if I have not—the noble Lord is potentially conflating different things. Obviously, the minimum wage is a legal requirement, and the equal pay legislation addresses the same in relation to gender and other aspects. What we are seeking to do, through enabling activities around flexible working, for example, but also maximising transparency and celebrating the success of employers that have a truly diverse workforce, is to use multiple levers to get to the same goal.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, since we have made such progress in dealing with the gender pay gap, might we also turn our attention to trying to persuade employers of the importance of helping parents, most of them women, who have taken time out from their careers to bring up children, to get back into the workforce with the same status at which they left it?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My noble friend is absolutely right. Part of that is about the time it takes for working parents to get back into the workforce. Our commitments—starting this April and building up, so that there will be 30 hours of free childcare for every family with a child nine months old and above—will be crucial for achieving that.

[Baroness Goudie (Lab)]

There is mandatory reporting —although there needs to be more—but when are the Government going to get tougher about taking proceedings against companies that do not report in their annual report or ensure that the Equal Pay Act is committed to? No companies are really being taken to court on this issue, so the Government need to step up on this.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am more than happy to take that back to the department. The mandatory reporting applies to companies with more than 250 employees. I was not aware of the cases that the noble Baroness refers to, but I am happy to pick that up.

[Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD)]

My Lords, the right to request flexible working has made major strides for women since it was introduced, but what if companies of a certain size were also required to include possible flexible working options in their recruitment when advertising for these posts? The Minister may be aware that a recent trial in Zurich led to a massive one-third more women being hired for senior positions. Does the Minister agree that a similar trial in the UK would be worth undertaking?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

A number of businesses offer flexible working from day one, and obviously there is a legal duty to do so from 26 weeks’ employment. As all noble Lords will recognise, we have seen a tremendous change in patterns of work following the pandemic, particularly flexibility between the workplace and home, and there is an increasing natural adoption of those approaches.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, in relation to the gender pension deficit, is it the case that, when women are getting divorced and may not have legal advice, they are not taking the correct decisions—for example, they assume that the former matrimonial home is the largest asset—and not getting the pension split on divorce? Could we have some data to illuminate that and better communication to women in those situations?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

As ever, my noble friend makes a very good point. I would be happy to meet her afterwards to explore how we could make that a reality.