Lords Chamber
14:38
Introduction(s): Lord Leveson of Liverpool and Lord McTague
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Introduction(s): Lord Leveson of Liverpool and Lord McTague
Charles Charles III, Charles III, by Charles III, by the Charles III, by the grace Charles III, by the grace of Charles III, by the grace of God Charles III, by the grace of God, of the United Kingdom, of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and of other realms and territories. King, head of the Commonwealth. Defender of the Faith. To all Lords, spiritual and temporal, and all other subjects whatsoever to whom these presents shall come. Greeting. Know ye that we of our special grace, certain knowledge and mere motion, in pursuance of the Life Peerages Act, 1958, and of all other powers in that behalf us enabling do by these presents advance, create and prefer our right trusty and well beloved councillor Sir Brian Henry Leveson Knight to the state degree, style, dignity, title and honour of Baron Leveson of Liverpool in Liverpool, in our county of Merseyside, and for us, our heirs and successors, to appoint, give and grant unto him the same Ned said.
Name, state, degree, style, dignity, title and honour of Baron Leveson of Liverpool, to have and to hold unto him for his life willing. And by these presents granting for us our heirs and successors, that he may have hold and possess a seat, place and voice in the Parliament, and public Assemblies and councils of us, our heirs and successors within our United Kingdom, amongst the Barons, and that also he may enjoy and use all the rights, privileges, preeminences, immunities, and advantages to the degree of a Baron, duly and of right belonging, which Barons of our United Kingdom have heretofore used and enjoyed, or as they do at present, use and enjoy in witness whereof we have caused these our letters to be made patent.
Witness ourself at Westminster in the afternoon of the 25th day of August, in the fourth year of our sign-manual.
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I, Brian Lord Leveson of Liverpool, do swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to his Majesty. King Charles, his heirs and King Charles, his heirs and successors according to law. So
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Charles Charles III, Charles III, by Charles III, by the Charles III, by the grace Charles III, by the grace of Charles III, by the grace of God, of the United Kingdom, of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and of other realms and territories. King, head of the Commonwealth. King, head of the Commonwealth. Defender of the faith to all Lords, spiritual and temporal, and all other. Our subjects. Whatsoever to whom these presents shall come. Greeting. Know ye that we.
Of our Greeting. Know ye that we. Of our special grace, certain knowledge and mere motion, in pursuance of the Life Peerages Act, 1958, and of all other powers in that behalf us enabling do by these presents advance, create, and prefer our trusty and well-beloved Martin Gerard Mctague, officer of our most excellent order of the British Empire to the state degree, style, dignity, title and honour of Baron Mctague, of Harrington in our County of Durham, and for us our heirs and successors do appoint, give, and grant unto him the said name, state, degree, style, dignity, title, and honour of Baron Mctague, to have and to hold unto him for his life willing.
And by these presents granting for us our heirs and successors, that he may have hold and possess a seat, place and voice in the Parliaments and public Assemblies and councils of us, our heirs and successors within our United Kingdom, amongst the Barons, and also that he may enjoy and use all the rights, privileges, preeminences, immunities, and advantages to the degree of a Baron, duly and of right belonging, which Barons of our United Kingdom have heretofore enjoyed and used, or as they do at present, use and enjoy in witness whereof we have caused these our letters to be made patent.
Witness ourself at Westminster in the afternoon of the 26th day of August, in the fourth year of our reign, by warrant under the King's sign-manual.
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I, Martin Lord McTague, do solemnly, sincerely, and truly solemnly, sincerely, and truly declare and affirm that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance faithful and bear true allegiance to his Majesty. King Charles, his heirs, his successors. According to
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First First Oral First Oral Question First Oral Question Lord First Oral Question Lord Wallace of Saltaire.
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of Saltaire. Beg leave to ask the question. Standing by name in the Order Paper. My Lords, the UK assume the
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My Lords, the UK assume the presidency of the Financial Action Task Force in July and has made
Name, state, degree, style, dignity, title and honour of Baron Leveson of Liverpool, to have and to hold unto him for his life willing. And by these presents granting for us our heirs and successors, that he may have hold and possess a seat, place and voice in the Parliament, and public Assemblies and councils of us, our heirs and successors within our United Kingdom, amongst the Barons, and that also he may enjoy and use all the rights, privileges, preeminences, immunities, and advantages to the degree of a Baron, duly and of right belonging, which Barons of our United Kingdom have heretofore used and enjoyed, or as they do at present, use and enjoy in witness whereof we have caused these our letters to be made patent.
Witness ourself at Westminster in the afternoon of the 25th day of August, in the fourth year of our sign-manual.
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I, Brian Lord Leveson of Liverpool, do swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to his Majesty. King Charles, his heirs and King Charles, his heirs and successors according to law. So
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Charles Charles III, Charles III, by Charles III, by the Charles III, by the grace Charles III, by the grace of Charles III, by the grace of God, of the United Kingdom, of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and of other realms and territories. King, head of the Commonwealth. King, head of the Commonwealth. Defender of the faith to all Lords, spiritual and temporal, and all other. Our subjects. Whatsoever to whom these presents shall come. Greeting. Know ye that we.
Of our Greeting. Know ye that we. Of our special grace, certain knowledge and mere motion, in pursuance of the Life Peerages Act, 1958, and of all other powers in that behalf us enabling do by these presents advance, create, and prefer our trusty and well-beloved Martin Gerard Mctague, officer of our most excellent order of the British Empire to the state degree, style, dignity, title and honour of Baron Mctague, of Harrington in our County of Durham, and for us our heirs and successors do appoint, give, and grant unto him the said name, state, degree, style, dignity, title, and honour of Baron Mctague, to have and to hold unto him for his life willing.
And by these presents granting for us our heirs and successors, that he may have hold and possess a seat, place and voice in the Parliaments and public Assemblies and councils of us, our heirs and successors within our United Kingdom, amongst the Barons, and also that he may enjoy and use all the rights, privileges, preeminences, immunities, and advantages to the degree of a Baron, duly and of right belonging, which Barons of our United Kingdom have heretofore enjoyed and used, or as they do at present, use and enjoy in witness whereof we have caused these our letters to be made patent.
Witness ourself at Westminster in the afternoon of the 26th day of August, in the fourth year of our reign, by warrant under the King's sign-manual.
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I, Martin Lord McTague, do solemnly, sincerely, and truly solemnly, sincerely, and truly declare and affirm that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance faithful and bear true allegiance to his Majesty. King Charles, his heirs, his successors. According to
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First First Oral First Oral Question First Oral Question Lord First Oral Question Lord Wallace of Saltaire.
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of Saltaire. Beg leave to ask the question. Standing by name in the Order Paper. My Lords, the UK assume the
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My Lords, the UK assume the presidency of the Financial Action Task Force in July and has made
14:48
Gov. Spokes
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
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Gov. Spokes
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
tackling forge its key priority under UK leadership. FatF is developing practical steps to help countries prevent, detect and countries prevent, detect and disrupt fraud, particularly scams linked to organised crime groups operating across borders. This work will also focus on strengthening cooperation between governments, law enforcement, banks, technology companies and online platforms.
14:48
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (Liberal Democrat)
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Lord Wallace of Saltaire (Liberal Democrat)
I'm very glad the British government is taking the lead in government is taking the lead in combating international financial fraud and money laundering, particularly now that cryptocurrency and the problem of cryptocurrency is so much in our minds. I note that one of the government's priorities as president is improving information sharing. The British government is responsible for a large number of Crown dependencies and overseas territories, many of which are offshore financial centres. They do not share information fully, and I note that the British Virgin Islands, for example, is on the Fatf's grey list, which deals with countries with strategic deficiencies and efforts to prevent fraud and money laundering.
What does the government intend to do to make sure that our leadership against financial fraud includes making sure that our overseas dependencies and crown dependencies are up to the mark?
What does the government intend to do to make sure that our leadership against financial fraud includes making sure that our overseas dependencies and crown dependencies are up to the mark?
14:49
Gov. Spokes
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
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Gov. Spokes
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
Yeah. >> The noble Lord raises a very important point. The Overseas Territories and Crown dependencies are committed to meeting international standards on tax transparency, anti-money laundering, and illicit finance. They have committed to introducing publicly committed to introducing publicly accessible registers of beneficial ownership, going beyond international standards set by the Financial Action Task Force and putting them ahead of most jurisdictions. The UK government respects their constitutional autonomy on domestic tax matters while supporting the implementation of these commitments, including through technical assistance and engagement with organisations such as open Open Ownership, the open, the Overseas Territories and Crown Dependencies are also independent members of FatF and therefore are subject to everything.
And are those standards that are set out and have committed to combating financial crime in their relevant jurisdictions.
And are those standards that are set out and have committed to combating financial crime in their relevant jurisdictions.
14:50
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Conservative)
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Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Conservative)
As a former Minister for the Overseas Territories, I work very closely with our OTS and many of closely with our OTS and many of them present the best of British, and we should stand by and support them. They also operated a scheme them. They also operated a scheme of exchange of notes, which allowed for legal authorities and tax authorities to get through. Can the Minister reassure me that those overseas territories that need support will be supported by His Majesty's Treasury and those that do not require similar registered Tristan da Cunha? They do great lobster, but they're not actually a centre for financial services that we look at this tactfully and strategically.
14:51
Gov. Spokes.
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
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Gov. Spokes.
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
I'll have to take the noble Lord's word for it on whether the lobster is any good or not being Jewish. Not really something I would have tried. However, the noble Lords absolutely right. Where noble Lords absolutely right. Where our crown dependencies require our support, they will get it where it's not appropriate for them to operate in that space. It would seem a tad illogical for us to deploy resources in that way.
14:51
14:51
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (Green Party)
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Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (Green Party)
the risks. It says the UK does not appear to have appropriate mechanisms to work through trade mechanisms to work through trade offs between its financial crime risks and competing political objectives. Would the noble Lady acknowledge that is a problem and see that there is a problem in the Financial Services and Markets Bill, Financial Services and Markets Bill, given it's a bill to deregulate the financial sector and aim to grow it.
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financial sector and aim to grow it. I have absolutely seen the report, and I disagree with the noble Ladies suggestion that we would prioritise political decision making. Let me just touch on what
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financial sector and aim to grow it. I have absolutely seen the report, and I disagree with the noble Ladies suggestion that we would prioritise political decision making. Let me just touch on what
14:52
Gov. Spokes.
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
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Gov. Spokes.
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
the government's actually done in terms of fraud action. There are 400 new specialist investigators at the National Fraud Squad. We've the National Fraud Squad. We've established the National Cyber Centre and their early warning service. We've established the service. We've established the Online Crime Centre with the NCA as a public private initiative. The a public private initiative. The Online Safety Act, the measures that are to protect fraud also exist, are being now fully exist, are being now fully implemented and we funded the UN and Interpol Global Fraud Summit.
My Lords, this government is putting is is is doing more than just talking. We're actually taking action. AEA my.
My Lords, this government is putting is is is doing more than just talking. We're actually taking action. AEA my.
14:53
14:53
Gov. Spokes.
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
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Gov. Spokes.
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
The noble Lord will know better than I do that FATF assesses every country, including ours. And where there are concerns, put in, put in there are concerns, put in, put in a action plan to make sure that people are fully compliant to those things that they have that they need to commit to under the standards of FatF. But given we are now the global presence for the next two years, I would very much believe us to be fit for purpose.
14:53
Baroness Kramer (Liberal Democrat)
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Baroness Kramer (Liberal Democrat)
My Lords. >> My Lords. >> Lords that are stopping the money laundering means stopping the enablers. Will the government enablers. Will the government rethink its legislation to transfer from professional bodies to the FCA, the direct AML supervision of professional firms? Has the government now recognised that the FCA lacks the resources and the expertise? But worst of all, it has no capacity to provide the myriad of small firms with adequate support rather than general guidance, thereby creating huge loopholes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
14:54
Gov. Spokes.
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
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Gov. Spokes.
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
I appreciate the noble Lady's expertise in this area, and while I expertise in this area, and while I understand her concerns, the government doesn't share them. We have invested a significant amount, not least through the economic crime levy to protect against AML, which includes an extra £110 million per annum.
14:54
14:55
Gov. Spokes.
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
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Gov. Spokes.
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
The noble Lords and my noble friend rather has maybe not based friend rather has maybe not based on that question, but my noble friend has significant expertise in this area and while I appreciate this area and while I appreciate his concern, this is, of course, something that the government takes very, very seriously, which is one of the reasons why we have been elected to chair the FatF presidency for the next two years. But it's also why we're taking actions in terms of anti-money laundering and in terms of the fraud space.
We're very aware that 47% of all crime in England and Wales is through fraud. We're working to protect those people that are now victims of this crime.
We're very aware that 47% of all crime in England and Wales is through fraud. We're working to protect those people that are now victims of this crime.
14:55
Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Conservative)
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Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Conservative)
Fighting financial fraud is very important, but it does impose huge important, but it does impose huge costs on the honest and reputable businesses without always catching the criminals. So how does the government gauge whether regulations and their enforcement, which she described so graphically, are proportionate?
14:56
Gov. Spokes.
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
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Gov. Spokes.
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
I occasionally do agree with the noble Lady. In this instance, I noble Lady. In this instance, I find that I do. One of the issues here, though, is the wider cost of how much forgers to wider UK plc. how much forgers to wider UK plc. It's currently £14 billion a year. So while I appreciate the concern about the impact on the individual companies, the reality is there were 6 million attempted frauds in the UK last year. 80% of them were online and 70% of them had an international dimension.
While I appreciate the concern, there is a reason why we have been very targeted in the economic crime levy about who is paying for it, but there is a genuine issue here that is undermining us in every corner of the economy.
While I appreciate the concern, there is a reason why we have been very targeted in the economic crime levy about who is paying for it, but there is a genuine issue here that is undermining us in every corner of the economy.
14:56
Lord Woodley (Labour)
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Lord Woodley (Labour)
I raised this last week talking about fraud and the billions of pounds in fraud. Can the Minister kindly tell me, when are we going to recover the millions of pounds
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of fraud from Baroness Mone? My noble friend, it will be aware that there is current ongoing legal cases, so I cannot comment on an individual case.
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of fraud from Baroness Mone? My noble friend, it will be aware that there is current ongoing legal cases, so I cannot comment on an individual case.
14:57
Lord Woodley (Labour)
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Lord Woodley (Labour)
Committee, where we've urged the Overseas Territories again and again to come up with bilateral compacts, recognising the differences between the territories differences between the territories and allowing us to judge progress or otherwise in each of them according to their own lights. The according to their own lights. The slowness of reports coming forward is proverbial, and I wonder if the is proverbial, and I wonder if the noble Lady, my noble friend, the lady Minister, can can inject some energy into that process.
14:58
Gov. Spokes.
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
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Gov. Spokes.
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Labour)
My noble friend is aware that I tend to inject energy everywhere tend to inject energy everywhere that I go, so I endeavour to. In this space there is obviously a two this space there is obviously a two issues here, one of which is about the role of FatF, which is undertakes, as I said, a review of undertakes, as I said, a review of every jurisdiction. But there is a responsibility on us too. But I'll have to write to the noble Lord about where we are with the bilateral conversations.
14:58
Baroness Coffey (Conservative)
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Baroness Coffey (Conservative)
Second Oral Question Baroness Coffey. >> My Lords, I beg leave. >> To ask the question. >> Standing in. >> My name on the Order Paper. >> My Lords, the public sector
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My Lords, the public sector fraud authorities. Repositioning into the Department of Work and Pensions reflects the government's
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My Lords, the public sector fraud authorities. Repositioning into the Department of Work and Pensions reflects the government's
14:58
Baroness Twycross, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Labour)
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Baroness Twycross, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Labour)
commitment to tackling public sector fraud. Both organisations will use their unique expertise to tackle fraud and error in welfare and across the public sector. The and across the public sector. The Treasury will continue to co-sponsor the Public Sector Fraud Authority. A Transfer of functions Authority. A Transfer of functions order will ensure the functions of the Public Authorities Act, 2025. A transfer to the Secretary of State
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for DWP. I'll start by saying this is not intended to be a dig at the First Secretary of State, who I thought was poorly treated by the previous Prime Minister. However, the Public Authorities Fraud Error and
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for DWP. I'll start by saying this is not intended to be a dig at the First Secretary of State, who I thought was poorly treated by the previous Prime Minister. However, the Public Authorities Fraud Error and
14:59
Baroness Coffey (Conservative)
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Baroness Coffey (Conservative)
Recovery Act, which we only passed last year, was billed as key to tackling billions of pounds of fraud beyond HMRC and DWP. Now it fraud beyond HMRC and DWP. Now it gave many powers solely and specifically to the Minister for the Cabinet Office in regards to the Cabinet Office in regards to tackling fraud in the Public Sector Fraud Authority. How effectively can the powers in this legislation now be deployed, and was surprised now be deployed, and was surprised to hear that an order in council will be sufficient.
It's better to get on, just use these powers and
It's better to get on, just use these powers and
14:59
Baroness Twycross, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Labour)
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Baroness Twycross, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Labour)
get on, just use these powers and not worry about just one day's bad publicity.
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The. The functions of the Public Authorities Fraud Error and Recovery Act will will still be able to be used. They'll be appropriately transferred. As I appropriately transferred. As I said to the noble Lady, to a relevant DWP Minister, and they will be able to be exercised in the will be able to be exercised in the way that the act intended. The Public Authorities Fraud Investigation Service, which was Investigation Service, which was established as a result of the act, will also continue to legally pursue cases of fraud against government whilst the transfer takes place.
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The. The functions of the Public Authorities Fraud Error and Recovery Act will will still be able to be used. They'll be appropriately transferred. As I appropriately transferred. As I said to the noble Lady, to a relevant DWP Minister, and they will be able to be exercised in the will be able to be exercised in the way that the act intended. The Public Authorities Fraud Investigation Service, which was Investigation Service, which was established as a result of the act, will also continue to legally pursue cases of fraud against government whilst the transfer takes place.
15:00
Lord Pack (Liberal Democrat)
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Lord Pack (Liberal Democrat)
In response to the Public >> In response to the Public Accounts Committee's report on using data to tackle public sector fraud, earlier this year, the government committed to supporting government committed to supporting a review of relevant legislation to be concluded by March next year. So could the noble Lady, the Minister, tell us what forward planning the government is taking to ensure that any proposals from that review can be put promptly to Parliament, and in particular, could the noble Lady, the Minister, commit that any necessary secondary legislation will come to Parliament before the end of 2027?
15:00
Baroness Twycross, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Labour)
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Baroness Twycross, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Labour)
This. This will all take place when parliamentary time allows. I'm when parliamentary time allows. I'm happy to make sure that the noble Lord gets a briefing from the relevant team about the progress and where it's all going, but I think that one of the things we want to do is make sure we get this right. But I'm happy to arrange for a briefing for the noble Lord.
15:01
Lord Vaux of Harrowden (Crossbench)
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Lord Vaux of Harrowden (Crossbench)
My Lords. >> My Lords. >> When we were debating this act only about a year ago, the noble, the Minister, the noble Lady Baroness Sanderson, explained with Baroness Sanderson, explained with her usual clarity that the purpose of the PSFA is to drive cross-government collaboration to tackle fraud across all public authorities. In what possible parallel universe can the DWP be the best department to drive? Cross-Government collaboration and perhaps noble Lady might have some examples of where that might have happened.
15:01
Baroness Twycross, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Labour)
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Baroness Twycross, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Labour)
The DWP is one of the >> The DWP is one of the departments that routinely has to work to tackle fraud, so there's considerable expertise within the department in relation to the Public Sector Fraud Authority. The PSFA will continue to work with all departments, public bodies across the public sector to drive counter fraud, performance and accountability and deliver cross-system services and increase Counter-fraud capability. In our view, this will be further bolstered by its repositioning in the DWP in that it will be able to learn from existing material counter-fraud capability in the department to optimise its services and vice versa.
15:02
15:02
Baroness Twycross, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Labour)
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Baroness Twycross, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Labour)
The PSFA has a really strong record of delivering beyond its record of delivering beyond its annual financial targets. So in the 2024 to 25 financial year, it delivered over £480 million in order to counter fraud benefits, which I understand is a return of £34 for every pound invested. The PSFA has delivered a total of £1.2 billion in savings since its establishment in 2022. Clearly it could go further and we're absolutely determined to make sure it does.
15:03
15:03
Baroness Twycross, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Labour)
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Baroness Twycross, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Labour)
The the amount that's been recouped so far, and the noble Lady is right to highlight that there were particular issues in relation to fraud during the pandemic. I'll need to write to the noble Lady because the figures, the figures change on a regular basis. It is considerable amounts, but obviously there is more that can be done. But I'll write and make sure that a copy of my letter is placed in the library.
15:03
Baroness Finn (Conservative)
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Baroness Finn (Conservative)
Can the Minister confirm whether any investigation, information, notice, recovery action or other notice, recovery action or other statutory power has been exercised by DWP Ministers or officials since responsibility for the PSFA was transferred and whether the government has taken legal advice on the susceptibility of any such decision to judicial review. If the statutory transfer of functions has not yet taken effect.
15:04
15:04
15:04
Baroness Twycross, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Labour)
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Baroness Twycross, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Labour)
I couldn't, I couldn't, I >> I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't possibly comment on that. But what I would say is that public But what I would say is that public sector fraud, waste public money, it drives up the deficit and damages public sectors. So we we are clear that we want to tackle it and put structures in place to do this. My noble friend is correct, however, that it isn't just public sector fraud that affects the public, and we are determined to do whatever we can to keep the public safe and to keep public finances as safe as possible from fraud and error.
15:05
15:05
Baroness Twycross, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Labour)
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Baroness Twycross, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Labour)
That's a really interesting >> That's a really interesting proposal. I understand from my amazing noble friend, Baroness Anderson that there's a number of trials underway. I'm very happy to meet the noble Lord to discuss it. Having offered letters to other people, obviously, I'm happy to meet any noble Lord at any point.
15:06
Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Conservative)
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Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Conservative)
For the fight against public sector fraud. And energetically I sector fraud. And energetically I share my noble friend Lady Coffeys concern about the move to DWP, which risks focusing the fight against fraud too narrowly. Is this because it was too awkward a portfolio for the First Secretary of State?
15:06
Baroness Twycross, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Labour)
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Baroness Twycross, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Labour)
Of course not. I find that an absolutely appalling question. The absolutely appalling question. The public sector fraud authorities repositioning reflects the government's absolute commitment to tackling public sector fraud. Both organisations will use their unique expertise to tackle fraud and error in welfare and across the public sector. The co-sponsoring by the Treasury of the Public Sector Fraud Authority will enable that you get that cross cross-government perspective as well, and the transfer of functions order will make sure that the functions are transferred to the DWP Secretary of State.
15:07
Lord Fox (Liberal Democrat)
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Lord Fox (Liberal Democrat)
That would. The noble Lady, the >> That would. The noble Lady, the Minister, agree that whistleblowers Minister, agree that whistleblowers have a big role in in in covering public sector fraud. And would you also agree with me that there's an awful lot more that the government could do, both to encourage whistleblowers and to protect their identities? And would she agree with the measures that my noble friend, Lady Cramer has been talking about for a long time, and bringing in an office of the whistleblower to make this happen?
15:07
15:08
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Labour)
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Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Labour)
Lord Stockwood the. >> Would the. >> Noble Lady acknowledge that she. Probably. Our most famous whistleblower from the House of Lords was Lord Agnew, who was very dissatisfied indeed in the way that fraud was being pursued. Could we ensure that, in fact, his views are again sought to see whether he feels that sufficient change has been introduced.
15:08
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15:08
Baroness Twycross, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Labour)
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Baroness Twycross, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Labour)
to learn from events and reduce the likelihood of recurrence. When deciding whether to establish an inquiry, Ministers consider a number of factors, including its objectives, whether and why objectives, whether and why alternatives are not appropriate. The inquiry is likely duration the likely cost, including those that are deliverable and realistic, and that the public interest outweighs
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those costs. Why does the Ministry of Defence continue to oppose the request for a public inquiry from the 29 bereaved families of the Chinook helicopter crash on the Mull of Kintyre? The Ministry of Defence
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those costs. Why does the Ministry of Defence continue to oppose the request for a public inquiry from the 29 bereaved families of the Chinook helicopter crash on the Mull of Kintyre? The Ministry of Defence
15:09
Baroness Hoey (Non-affiliated)
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Baroness Hoey (Non-affiliated)
stated that the evidence had already been considered and no further investigation was warranted. further investigation was warranted. Yet it's now reviewing thousands of documents and asking the families themselves to help identify the themselves to help identify the evidence relating to air worthiness. Will His Majesty's Government please tell the families how this please tell the families how this can be reconciled? With a government committed to a duty of candour in the Hillsborough Law? Does this not demonstrate precisely Does this not demonstrate precisely why the Mod should not be left to investigate its own conduct, and why an independent review is now necessary to restore the families and the public's confidence.
Surely seeking justice should have no expiry date.
Surely seeking justice should have no expiry date.
15:10
Baroness Twycross, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Labour)
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Baroness Twycross, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Labour)
Where I would agree. >> With the noble Lady is that seeking justice must not and should not have an expiry date. And I think all of our hearts across your Lordships House will go will extend sympathy. I understand there's been ongoing discussions. I understand my noble friend Lord Coker, has met with some of the bereaved families, and I think that's ongoing discussions with the with within the Mod as well.
15:10
Lord Carter of Haslemere (Crossbench)
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Lord Carter of Haslemere (Crossbench)
My Lord, my Lords, my Lords, >> My Lord, my Lords, my Lords, given my Lords, given that cross Lords.
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Lords. We'll hear from the crossbenchers next.
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Thank you all my Lords. Given that statutory inquiries are held where events have caused public where events have caused public concern and usually cost often tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions of taxpayers money, does millions of taxpayers money, does the noble Lady, the Minister, agree that reasons should always be given by Ministers for rejecting inquiry recommendations, so as to ensure due openness and accountability to
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Lords. We'll hear from the crossbenchers next.
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Thank you all my Lords. Given that statutory inquiries are held where events have caused public where events have caused public concern and usually cost often tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions of taxpayers money, does millions of taxpayers money, does the noble Lady, the Minister, agree that reasons should always be given by Ministers for rejecting inquiry recommendations, so as to ensure due openness and accountability to
15:11
Baroness Twycross, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Labour)
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Baroness Twycross, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Labour)
the public? >> The the noble Lord is right in the sense that we think it's really important that people understand when and why the government would accept the need for a public inquiry. They are a really important way to investigate issues of concern, particularly where that's around state failures, so that we learn lessons so that events do not happen again. What I would say, and I think this was reflected in the work of your Lordships' House in terms of the Statutory inquiries Committee, is that a public inquiry isn't always necessarily going to provide the answers and the resolution that people expect.
One of the things this government is doing through the Public Accountability Bill, in particular, the duty of candour, is making sure that within within the different types of reviews and inquiries that might take place, a statutory inquiry isn't the one that's got protected, protected characteristics in relation to the the responsibility of public servants to tell the truth. So this will extend it, and we hope, means that people won't necessarily see that people won't necessarily see the need to have a full public inquiry to get answers.
One of the things this government is doing through the Public Accountability Bill, in particular, the duty of candour, is making sure that within within the different types of reviews and inquiries that might take place, a statutory inquiry isn't the one that's got protected, protected characteristics in relation to the the responsibility of public servants to tell the truth. So this will extend it, and we hope, means that people won't necessarily see that people won't necessarily see the need to have a full public inquiry to get answers.
15:12
Lord McColl of Dulwich (Conservative)
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Lord McColl of Dulwich (Conservative)
Conservative. The way that people have chosen to sit on these various inquiries, and because the reason I ask this is we had a select committee on obesity, which is a very much a medical problem. And yet, although there were eight medical peers available at the time, not one of them was asked to sit on the committee, nor would the Minister look into ways of correcting that sort of anomaly. So correcting that sort of anomaly.
So rather more balanced outcomes can be produced.
So rather more balanced outcomes can be produced.
15:13
Lord Pack (Liberal Democrat)
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Lord Pack (Liberal Democrat)
Hear, hear. the House, but I think your Lordships' House has noted the point.
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Lord German Lord Scriven. Recent standard, the. For decades, the compensation schemes which are flown from the schemes which are flown from the same issues that triggered the inquiries we've been talking about have often had a poor track record. The most recent scheme for victims of infected blood, for example, had to be created because of the many failings of four previous schemes failings of four previous schemes over 40 years, and it seems there's no consistent learning from past mistakes. My noble friend Lady mistakes.
My noble friend Lady Brinton, has campaigned to set up a single compensation body that would oversee schemes and have that institutional memory, and would indeed save time and money, as well as get compensation to victims more as get compensation to victims more quickly. So would the noble Lady, proposal?
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Lord German Lord Scriven. Recent standard, the. For decades, the compensation schemes which are flown from the schemes which are flown from the same issues that triggered the inquiries we've been talking about have often had a poor track record. The most recent scheme for victims of infected blood, for example, had to be created because of the many failings of four previous schemes failings of four previous schemes over 40 years, and it seems there's no consistent learning from past mistakes. My noble friend Lady mistakes.
My noble friend Lady Brinton, has campaigned to set up a single compensation body that would oversee schemes and have that institutional memory, and would indeed save time and money, as well as get compensation to victims more as get compensation to victims more quickly. So would the noble Lady, proposal?
15:14
Baroness Twycross, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Labour)
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Baroness Twycross, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Labour)
Yeah.
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I'd be very happy. To meet the noble Lady Baroness Brinton about the proposal. I can Brinton about the proposal. I can understand her concerns about some of the issues that have happened with the infected blood compensation schemes and the support schemes. Previously having been briefed on those since I became a Minister in the Cabinet Office, I think that we really do share your Lordships and the inquiry's ambition, the infected blood inquiries, ambition that fair compensation is delivered as quickly as possible to every eligible person.
That hasn't always felt as easy when you've had compensation schemes. And I think we we would be wanting to actively look at ways that we can make that feel more victim centred rather
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than too bureaucratic. Given the recent scandals, it's
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Given the recent scandals, it's perhaps not surprising that the public regard judge led statutory public regard judge led statutory public inquiries as the necessary standard. However, this isn't always proportionate. Has the always proportionate. Has the government given consideration to how it can build confidence in other routes for the public, so
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I'd be very happy. To meet the noble Lady Baroness Brinton about the proposal. I can Brinton about the proposal. I can understand her concerns about some of the issues that have happened with the infected blood compensation schemes and the support schemes. Previously having been briefed on those since I became a Minister in the Cabinet Office, I think that we really do share your Lordships and the inquiry's ambition, the infected blood inquiries, ambition that fair compensation is delivered as quickly as possible to every eligible person.
That hasn't always felt as easy when you've had compensation schemes. And I think we we would be wanting to actively look at ways that we can make that feel more victim centred rather
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than too bureaucratic. Given the recent scandals, it's
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Given the recent scandals, it's perhaps not surprising that the public regard judge led statutory public regard judge led statutory public inquiries as the necessary standard. However, this isn't always proportionate. Has the always proportionate. Has the government given consideration to how it can build confidence in other routes for the public, so
15:15
15:15
Baroness Twycross, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Labour)
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Baroness Twycross, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Labour)
We have an inquiry team within the Cabinet Office, which has a formal role advising departments formal role advising departments and Ministers, both on potential new inquiries and terms of reference, but also in relation to giving advice across government on different routes. We're keen to look at what more we can do in terms of advising public and campaigners of the different options available. I'd be happy to update your Lordships' House a future date when we've made more progress with this work.
15:15
Baroness Finn (Conservative)
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Baroness Finn (Conservative)
My Lords, the government accepted a number of recommendations from the Statutory Inquiry Committee's Statutory Inquiries Committee's report, Public Inquiries Enhancing public trust, including the format of future inquiries, proper consultation of victims and survivors, and stronger Cabinet Office capability. When will the government implement these, those commitments, and will the House be updated at that point?