Live Debate: Lords Chamber

Oral questions: Pharmaceutical and medical technology industries: diagnosis and treatment of rare cancers Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (Crossbench)

Paper. >> My Lords, improving diagnosis and treatment for rare cancer patients is a priority for this government. Through the National Cancer Plan. The Department is

14:49

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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exploring procurement mechanisms to stimulate techno technological breakthroughs to tackle rare cancers with the lowest survival cancers with the lowest survival rates. The MHRA launched a public consultation in May seeking views consultation in May seeking views on how rare cancer, how rare disease therapies are regulated. The government will implement the The government will implement the Rare Cancers Act 2026 to ensure our regulatory framework delivers for rare cancer patients.

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Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (Crossbench)

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I'm grateful to the Minister for outlining what are actually laudable aims, but the reality is that every year, about 67,000 people die from rare cancers. About 10,500 of those have got brain tumours. And of all those patients, many are young. They're children or young people. 82% say they were never offered a trial, often because no trial exists that they could even go into. And half of them feel that their diagnosis was late, leaving them to have end stage cancers.

So with the cancer plan, plans for early detection and a trials accelerator and thrive, will the government ensure that all cancers, particularly rare cancers, have a comprehensive genomics testing and that there is tissue freezing as appropriate so there can be targeted drug development by pharmaceutical industries and develop personalised treatments. And secondly, will the government strengthen bench to bedside so that there is a stronger clinical academic force, both in oncology and in pathology in particular, to increase set up times for trials and drug and radiotherapy trials, in particular to have hub and spoke models so that patients living at a distance from the research centre can still benefit from going into a trial and that the bureaucracy will be decreased.

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Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, the noble Lady is quite right to talk about acceleration of clinical trials. And indeed, as the clinical trials. And indeed, as the noble Lady and your Lordships' House is aware, that's exactly what we are doing, not least our turbo charging of clinical trials has already meant that set up is now an average of 122 days, which is down from 169 days last year and indeed exceeds what the government wish was, which was 150 days.

I do share the view on early diagnosis, which again, why in the cancer plan that's covered, and indeed on genomics, the National Cancer Plan does set out a major expansion in the use of genomics in order to do exactly as the noble Lady says, support earlier diagnosis and more personalised treatment.

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Baroness Pidgeon (Liberal Democrat)

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In January, the government announced faster access to clinical announced faster access to clinical trials via the NHS app for rare cancers. So is this live yet? And if not by when, will patients be able to use this innovation to take part in suitable drug trials? And how will those who are digitally excluded have access?

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Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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Yeah. >> Yeah. >> In all cases, with our development of the NHS app, which development of the NHS app, which is the front door to the NHS and has been already made tremendous steps forward in terms of access, we already build in that those who are not able, for whatever reason, to use the NHS app, will continue to get personalised support. But it is true that we will be offering those with rare and less common cancers, in particular the opportunity to take part in clinical trials through the NHS app.

And I'll be pleased to keep the noble Lady informed of the timetable we want to see, and will get faster access indeed to the most innovative treatments and technologies that are available.

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Lord Winston (Labour)

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My Lords, the noble Lady with >> My Lords, the noble Lady with her attempt to get early treatment, is commendable and we're very glad to hear what the government is saying. But does she agree that one saying. But does she agree that one of the problems is that cancer is really a multi-morbidity? So often a number of different organs will be affected by it. And I wonder whether she might agree that we might do more to hasten diagnosis to patients who may be expected of having cancer, but it takes often a long time to get those connections to see the oncologist who eventually decides whether or not to give these very, very expensive drugs, which are much needed.

Would she ensure or can she ensure, as far as she can, that speed between services is really undertaken?

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Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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Indeed. So, and I'm pleased to give that assurance to my noble give that assurance to my noble friend, which is which is actually at the core of the National Cancer at the core of the National Cancer Plan. And it's worth saying that many rare and less common cancers, for example, including those that can't be staged, are diagnosed in emergency settings, which is far from ideal. Our outcomes are far worse. So we have committed and have a plan to reduce the number of rare cancers that are diagnosed in emergency settings, but we will also provide improved screening and surveillance, and we will help GPS to support to spot harder to recognise rare cancer cases through AI driven decision support tools and new approaches.

I think all of that will be of great assistance in the way my noble friend seeks.

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Lord Kamall (Conservative)

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My Lords, a number of life >> My Lords, a number of life sciences companies have warned that the recent HMRC VAT rulings on compassionate use and early access compassionate use and early access medicine schemes, which can result in companies being charged VAT even when they provide medicines free of charge. This could lead to them withdrawing programs that provide innovative treatments to patients with rare conditions before routine NHS funding is available. So has the government looked at the impact of charging VAT on drugs that are available for free through the compassionate use and early access schemes? And what's the impact of that on the government's stated ambition to encourage more innovation in diagnosis and treatment of rare conditions?

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Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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Well, considerations about >> Well, considerations about taxation are always, as the noble Lord is aware, always are Lord is aware, always are considered. When we make plans in respect of where it applies. I know that there was an urgent question in the House of Commons which the Minister concerned, Karen Smith, answered. But let me just say that nice. In evaluating all new medicines, including for rare cancers, is able to recommend many new treatments for rare cancers that are now available to NHS patients that were not.

So I do take the point of the question, but also, and I would want to emphasise this the Cancer Drugs Fund means that there is funding for promising new cancer drugs. And again, that does mean that patients can get earlier access to treatments that wouldn't have otherwise been available to NHS patients. And so we are also, through the MHRA designing a new framework for regulation of rare diseases in all these ways, that will certainly support the point that the noble Lord rightly makes.

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Lord Patel (Crossbench)

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My Lords will lead in genomic science. We lead in genomic structure by establishing seven structure by establishing seven hubs of genomic testing. We know hubs of genomic testing. We know despite this, that we fall behind testing for liquid biopsies of DNA, for circulating DNA, for histology, testing, for molecular testing of cancer tissues, and in testing of genetically inherited genes to test for families. All of these are because of bottlenecks, not because the machines can't do the test. What we need is somebody to get a grip of the administrative backlog that occurs because we are failing in timelines on all of these, which are government targets.

Can the Minister, the Baroness Stowell of Beeston, answer that?

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Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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Well, indeed, I do recognise what the noble Lord says about bottlenecks, and that is why the National Cancer Plan is quite clear about the changes that we will see. And I should say to the point in this question, there is for the first time, specific reference to rare cancers. I always think rare cancers is a bit of a misnomer. In any case, if one looks at the statistics. But it is also the case that the National Cancer Plan does set out a major expansion in the use of genomics, and that will support earlier diagnosis and more personalised treatment.

And that is what we need to see.

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Baroness Nargund (Labour)

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My Lord, I thank the noble Lady Baroness Finlay for this very Baroness Finlay for this very important question and also raising the issue of hub and spoke model the issue of hub and spoke model for cancer trials. Rare cancer trials involve fewer patients and less data, which makes it very difficult to conduct large randomised studies that are needed for SIS approval to produce evidence for innovative treatments. Can I ask my noble friend, the Minister, if the government is considering to ask? Nice to review or revise its assessment methods so that innovative treatments can be approved with fewer patients and less data? Because of the difficulties in doing large, large trials and patients have not left behind.

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Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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It is absolutely key that we we actually continue our commitment and speeding up in terms of research and clinical trials. We have already cut unnecessary bureaucracy. We've also standardised processes. We've also freed up workforce capacity as well as, as I said earlier, seeking to use the NHS app as a way forward. But that's just the beginning of an ambition to accelerate start up times. We do need to strengthen our position as a global force in respect of clinical trials and the hub and spoke model that my noble friend and the noble Lady, Baroness Finlay, both spoke to, are possibilities about how we could take that forward.

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Third Oral Question Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate. I need to ask the question

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standing in my name on today's Order Paper. The government are committed to

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The government are committed to enhancing reciprocal data exchange with the EU for border security and public safety purposes through the UK. EU reset, including commitments made at last year's summit. We're making progress on biometric and criminal records data and continue to work closely with the Commission to identify and pursue further practical opportunities, including on real time alert sharing and asylum data, Eurodac insists raise different legal and operational issues. So we're taking a pragmatic, issues. So we're taking a pragmatic, incremental approach, but prioritising border security and law enforcement.

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Lord Hanson of Flint, Minister of State (Home Office) (Security) (Jointly with the Cabinet Office) (Labour)

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I thank the Minister for that. As a member of the EU, the UK was, of course, entitled to Eurodac to share in the fingerprint information from illegal migrants, which, with the Dublin Convention, gave us the means of identifying and removing them from his country

15:01

Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Conservative)

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with Sis two, which I know from my own work on it, we had a means of getting. The Minister has touched getting. The Minister has touched on this real time information on the movements of terrorists and serious criminals who might serious criminals who might threaten us here. Without either of those provisions fully in place, we are a greater risk. Can I therefore are a greater risk. Can I therefore press the Minister at the forthcoming EU UK summit on that forthcoming EU UK summit on that agenda? Can we press very strongly indeed to get the real time information which is so vital to our security?

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Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

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I'm grateful to the noble Lord, >> I'm grateful to the noble Lord, as he clearly mentions, the loss of that information was one of the Brexit downsides that happened, one Brexit downsides that happened, one that in fact, many of us warned about before we left the European Union. But we are now where we are. And what the government is trying to do is to ensure that we get that access back as soon as possible. So at the forthcoming summit and at the EU summit in May 25th, we have indicated previously our commitment to try to ensure we get that real time data back as soon as possible.

It's in all of our interests to do so, but there are still some happen.

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Lord Hannay of Chiswick (Crossbench)

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I know, Lord, the Minister confirm that the benefits of confirm that the benefits of rejoining SIS II and DAC to this country is go much wider than simply immigration issues, and cover the whole range of law enforcement cooperation, which is so vital to us and to our EU partners. And would he also confirm that the benefits from our rejoining these two schemes would also accrue to the other members, the other European countries who are already members of them, because they too would benefit.

15:03

Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

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Absolutely. It's a really >> Absolutely. It's a really important issue that we do try and get back into Sis as a matter of get back into Sis as a matter of some urgency. Last year there were 95 million alerts, 2 million of which related to persons of which related to persons of interest for law enforcement and immigration purposes. And in 2025, there were 17.8 billion searches on Sis by EU member states. Now that is an issue we need to get back to, and we did have access between 215 and 220.

We lost it with Brexit. We need to get back into that position as a matter of some urgency. There are some challenges, particularly with relation to the question of the Eurodac, because there is legislation that is required by the European Union to make that change, but it is the government's intention to try to reset that as a matter of some urgency.

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Lord German (Liberal Democrat)

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My Lords. >> My interest. I am supported by the ramp organisation. >> Given the increased significance

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Given the increased significance of Eurodac in the EU's new migration pact. Does the noble Lord, the Minister, agree that having the Minister, agree that having access to Eurodac would significantly improve the tools in the toolbox to deal with irregular migration? And also, does the noble Lord the Minister, agree that in order to address the Eurodac issue, we will need to be closer to the EU, not further away from it, as suggested by some parties, by being ejected from the Council of Europe by us leaving the ECHR here.

15:04

Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

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Well, we're not going to leave the EU under this government, and the EU under this government, and the noble Lord knows that other parties can speak for themselves. In fact, other parties have spoken In fact, other parties have spoken for themselves in getting us into this difficult position, potentially in the first place. There is a question with Eurodac, which I think the noble Lord will be aware of, that it does require EU legislation and that EU legislation currently prohibits the sharing of Eurodac data with third countries.

So that's a difficult thing that we have to overcome, but it is absolutely vital that we try and get back as much of that data as possible. And as the previous noble Lord mentioned, it's in everybody's interests to share data because criminality and immigration abuse is transnational.

15:05

Lord Redwood (Conservative)

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And every migrant arriving by boat, we are paid. Who told them about the service and who was driving the boat. And if they don't cooperate, shouldn't the authorities look at their bank records and their phone records? Well.

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Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

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The noble Lord wasn't here when >> The noble Lord wasn't here when we passed the Immigration Act last year, which agreed to do a number of things which are improving the situation as a whole and so much improving the situation that in fact, we have deported 13% more foreign criminals than we did under his government previously. We've reduced by a third the amount of asylum decisions that have taken place from a peak of 56,000 in 20 23 to 35% fewer in 2025.

We've reduced the number of people claiming asylum down by 12%, and we've reduced the initial time weight by 55%. And we've done all that whilst facing the difficulties of not being in the European Union, able to share the data that we did when the noble Lord actually advocated leaving the European Union, was there any thought to the loss of that data and its impact on society and our safety as a whole?

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Baroness Chakrabarti (Labour)

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Yeah. >> Yeah. >> My Lords, to return to sensible questions about Eurodac rather than the the festering sore that is, the the festering sore that is, that is Brexit or real Brexit and leaving the UK given given everybody's interest in multilateral cooperation around these these global issues, isn't it worth remembering that Norway, Liechtenstein, other non-EU countries are part of Eurodac. And so it's perfectly possible to come to sensible agreement about this. Yeah.

15:07

Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

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We are trying and we will continue to try through efforts both at last year's EU summit and this year's EU summit, to improve the position on both SIS II and on Eurodac. There are some logistical legislative challenges with Eurodac in particular, but I say to my noble friend, it is the government's intention to secure for the benefit of both the EU and the United Kingdom a closer cooperation as possible on both of those issues.

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Lord Wallace of Saltaire (Liberal Democrat)

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With. Minister, to confirm that it's always been very strongly in it's always been very strongly in the interest of British police and other authorities to promote closer cooperation with our neighbours. I remember when I was a very junior Minister being told in Yorkshire that there was no organised crime in Britain, which was not international. I remember much earlier in 1989, when I was director of research at Chatham House, being approached by the Metropolitan Police to ask if we would go on a seminar on how to build police cooperation with our European neighbours, after which the British police played an active role in the establishment of Europol.

This is all very much, strongly in our national interest, and we ought to be pursuing it as closely as we can.

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Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

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Yeah, absolutely. when a UK citizen was head of Europol and worked in cooperation with our European partners to with our European partners to reduce crime, which is transnational. And when we had access to Sis two between 2015 and 2020, we had access to those police records. They were lost at Brexit. I'm not going to revisit the Brexit debate. We all voted our different ways. We all voted our different ways. But I know which way I voted and which way has proved to be right in the long term.

And ultimately, and ultimately, we will do what we can to get closer cooperation to achieve the objectives the noble Lord has outlined.

15:09

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

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My Lords, is the noble Lady, Lady Chakrabarti said. SIS II is available to non-schengen countries, so surely the discussion with the so surely the discussion with the EU is not Schengen or Non-schengen EU or non-EU, but it's one. It's a system that benefits us all.

15:09

Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

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No, it is a system. It benefits us all. And it's a system we want us all. And it's a system we want to see back in place. And I, I welcome the noble Ladies support for that objective. But the government has to negotiate with government has to negotiate with European partners to achieve that. Now we are outside of the EU, but I hope I hope that we can achieve that. And we've started that with the EU reset. We intend to see it through. And my objective is to make sure we have access to the information we had access to between 215 and 220.

15:10

Lord Watts (Labour)

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Hello. Just the case that we need a closer relationship with need a closer relationship with Europe financially, and also on security issues. And the people who talk down that relationship are Well.

15:10

Lord Hanson of Flint, The Minister of State, Home Department (Labour)

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I'm grateful that my noble friend will know that terrorism, international crime, that cross-border migration frauds, that all of the issues that are exercising the British public and this House and the House of Commons are issues which have at their central heart the need to cooperate across the European Union and with the United Kingdom as a whole. And that's the government's objective in the European Union reset to make sure that we can get the best deal

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possible on those issues that matter on the ground. Fourth Oral Question Baroness

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Anelay of St Johns. I beg leave to ask the question standing in my name. MoD. Order

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Paper. My Lords, the UK plays a leading. International role in marine conservation, working with partners to tackle pollution, protect

15:11

Oral questions: World Ocean Day Baroness Anelay of St Johns (Conservative)

vulnerable ecosystems and promote sustainable ocean governance. To mark World Ocean Day, we

15:11

Baroness Hayman of Ullock, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Labour)

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highlighted action at home and abroad, and that included legislation to implement the legislation to implement the Biodiversity Beyond National Jurisdiction agreement at the Blue Belt programme's 10th anniversary

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Baroness Anelay of St Johns (Conservative)

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Belt programme's 10th anniversary event, it was announced that Montserrat will join the initiative,

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Baroness Hayman of Ullock, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Labour)

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expanding protection of over 4 million km2 of ocean. And my colleague in DEFRA, Minister Hardy, colleague in DEFRA, Minister Hardy, will also engage global leaders at our at our Ocean conference tomorrow and announce further Blue Planet Fund commitments.

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Baroness Anelay of St Johns (Conservative)

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My Lords, whilst welcoming, I'm >> My Lords, whilst welcoming, I'm sure with my own colleagues who are involved in promoting the Bill on involved in promoting the Bill on ensuring there was a treaty to protect the oceans and welcoming that. I do note that the government has merely made just the first step in going towards ratification. Before that, we have to have secondary legislation. There's no sign of it. The government says it just needs a bit more time. But why? What is the problem in getting on the real road to ratification? Is it that the government has found a problem in sorting out its policy on bottom trawling? Yes.

15:12

Baroness Hayman of Ullock, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Labour)

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Well, can I reassure the noble Lady that the government is completely committed to ratifying completely committed to ratifying the Bbng agreement? As she knows, I'm sure we introduced the legislation on the 10th of September to enable the UK to implement its obligations under the agreement and move towards ratification, and that received Royal Assent on the 12th of February. As she's aware, we need to now bring in further secondary legislation before the Bbng agreement can be ratified formally by the UK, and I can absolutely confirm this process is currently underway.

15:13

Baroness Sheehan (Liberal Democrat)

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The Blue. >> Belt is. >> The government's programme to assist the. >> The UK Overseas Territories in

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The UK Overseas Territories in protecting and enhancing ocean health and enabling sustainable growth through evidence based marine management and protection. Last week, I had the pleasure to meet with the representative of the Cayman Islands Doctor, Minister Eubank Wilkes, and former premier Wayne Panton MP. So may I ask the Minister a question arising out of that meeting? How is the government ensuring that the Blue Belt programme strengthens compliance, surveillance and management capacity in the overseas territories, for example, protection of mangroves rather than focusing just on MPA designations?

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Baroness Hayman of Ullock, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Labour)

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Absolutely. Well done. >> Well, we do of course, through the blue belt subprogrammes of the Blue Belt Ocean Shield, which are the compliance and enforcement the compliance and enforcement capabilities, and through the Global Ocean Wildlife Analysis Network, which is about non-invasive scientific surveys, support the programme of of Blue Belt and ensure that enforcement happens as it needs to. But as also as part of that, we also provide support to the British, British Indian Ocean Territory, to Bermuda, to British Virgin Islands and Gibraltar.

And we do also put in, I think, more than £60 million of UK government support to the Blue Belt programme in order to underpin the protection and sustainable management of an enormous amount of our oceans now. And we as far as we're concerned in the government, this is a cornerstone of the UK's contribution to our global ambition to protect at least 30% of the ocean by 2030, and we are absolutely committed to ensuring enforcement is in place.

15:14

Lord Sikka (Labour)

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Carbon emissions from the carbon >> Carbon emissions from the carbon emissions harm the oceans through warming, acidification and deoxygenation, and threatened deoxygenation, and threatened climate, food and jobs. Since 1990, the carbon emissions of the UK's richest 0.1% have increased by 53%, while the bottom 90% have cut theirs by 26%. Can the Minister explain how the government kerbs carbon emissions by the super rich and makes them bear the cost of their pollution?

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Baroness Hayman of Ullock, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Labour)

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Well, we are working through a >> Well, we are working through a sustainable ocean plan, which will make a really big difference to the make a really big difference to the environment and in the areas that he's talking about. We're currently in the scoping phase of this, and we're looking at the guidance on the the the high level panel that for sustainable ocean economy that also supports other other countries to develop their plans. There is a lot of that plan already in place, and it is through plans like that that we will make a real difference to the environment of the ocean.

Friend referred to.

15:16

Baroness Sugg (Conservative)

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Bottom trawling, and I. >> Previously asked the. >> Noble Lady, the Minister, about the government response to bottom trawling in our marine protected areas, which is causing extreme areas, which is causing extreme damage to the ecosystem. The noble Lady pointed to a record number of responses. I'm not sure if that still stands, given the 116,000 responses to the social media ban that the government was able to come up with an initial response and a new policy in just three short weeks. So I wondered if the noble Lady could provide any update to when the government will respond to the marine protected areas, bottom trawling consultation?

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Baroness Hayman of Ullock, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Labour)

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Yes. I am very aware that members are keen to hear about progress on the consultation on this. We are. We are progressing all steps and the idea is to to to introduce byelaws by the end of 2026. By the end of this year. Absolutely mindful of the importance that the noble Lady holds this, this issue in as as do other noble Lords. And we are working directly with the Marine Management Organisation to move this along.

15:17

Lord Teverson (Liberal Democrat)

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Give them give. Them one of the increasing issues for our purposes, increasing issues for our purposes, for our dolphins, for our whales, is that of increasing marine noise. Now, the Defra created or published a policy document at the beginning of last year, which I welcomed. But could the Minister tell us what progress has been made so that we protect all our marine mammals, so that it can survive and thrive in our national waters? Yes.

15:17

Baroness Hayman of Ullock, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Labour)

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The noble Lord is absolutely right to raise the issue of noise. I think we're learning more and I think we're learning more and more about that as time goes on, because I don't think it was taken seriously for quite a long time. I don't have an update at my fingertips today, but I'm more than happy to keep the noble Lord informed as we as we make progress in this area.

15:17

Lord Roborough (Conservative)

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My Lords. >> My Lords, my Lords, it is all very well the government celebrating World Ocean Day and also passing the Biodiversity Beyond National Jurisdiction Act. But this government has surrendered 40% of our national fishing rights for the next 12 years to the EU. French vessels are the largest bottom trawlers in our marine protected areas. Both my noble friends have asked about MPAs. Has the government given up our ability to control the exploitation of our own small part of the ocean?

15:18

Baroness Hayman of Ullock, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Labour)

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I would say absolutely not. No, we haven't given up at all. We are aware that there are still decisions to be made on fisheries management, particularly around measures for the highly protected marine areas, which I'm sure the fishing industry is looking at and waiting for very, very closely. We are going to be looking at this through a very clear, evidence based approach, and we'll be making decisions shortly. I think the key thing is, is that we have been working very closely with fishers.

We've been talking to people impacted by this because it is a complex area where you're looking at the needs of fishermen and the fact that we want to eat fish in this country, compared with how do we manage our environment and particularly our marine protected areas. So it is something we're working through at the moment.

15:19

Lord Hintze (Conservative)

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House of Lords protecting our >> House of Lords protecting our marine environment and marine animals is probably one of the most animals is probably one of the most important things we can do. Would the noble Baroness, the Minister, agree to do that? We need a very strong navy.

15:19

Baroness Hayman of Ullock, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Labour)

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Yes. >> Well, I'm very disappointed that my noble friend Lord West is not here, because I'm sure he would be here, because I'm sure he would be be very, very keen to encourage me to answer that question in the affirmative, I. Shall I actually share an office with the Minister for defence, so I shall raise that issue with him.

15:19

Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Conservative)

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There is currently evidence to prove that the noise and sonic boom prove that the noise and sonic boom from offshore wind farms is causing damage to porpoises and dolphins and whales. Would it not therefore make sense to have a moratorium on future offshore wind farms? Until we have more knowledge of what the damage to our marine life is actually being caused by these offshore wind farms?

15:20

Baroness Hayman of Ullock, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Labour)

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Yeah, we like that. Yes. >> Yeah, we like that. Yes. >> Well, I think what we need to do is we need to look at how do we move forward with actually building move forward with actually building more renewable energy in this country, because we need to do that. And that includes both onshore and offshore wind. But as with anything, we need to ensure that it's built in the right places, that the right impact statements are done, and that we also continue to understand more about what noise pollution, particularly what that what impact that has on seabirds, on sea life, on whales, on porpoises, and so on.

That work is ongoing. It is important that we understand these things better, so that we build things in the right way, as well as in the right place.

15:21

Urgent Question Repeat: Defence Investment Plan Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Conservative)

Private notice question on the >> Private notice question on the situation in the Middle East. Lord Abbott of Wimbledon. >> My Lords, I beg.

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My Lords, I beg. Leave to ask a question of which I've given private notice. The I've given private notice. The question is as follows to ask His Majesty's Government further to the announcement of the US and Iran of an agreement to end the conflict in the Middle East, what plans they have, if any, to one support the reopening of the Straits of Hormuz, and secondly, to address the wider issues of defence and security of the United Kingdom's Gulf partners.

And I draw attention to my register entry as an adviser to the Arab Ambassadors Council and organisations working on conflict resolution in the Middle East.

15:21

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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My Lords, the. >> The agreement between the United States and Iran and commends all involved in securing this diplomatic breakthrough. Our diplomatic breakthrough. Our priority now is to support the full implementation of the agreement and reopen the Strait of Hormuz without conditions or restrictions in line with international law, we stand ready to support the right of transit passage, including through a multinational military mission which will lead, which we will lead with France, which will be deployed when conditions allow.

We will continue to work closely with our Gulf partners to support security and stability for the region.

15:22

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Conservative)

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My Lords, I am sure the noble Lady, the Minister, and indeed all will join me in recognising the will join me in recognising the important role of Pakistan. Both bought Shukria to them and shukran also to Qatar for their support in getting to where we are. But the agreement is still to be signed on Friday, as we know, and the vulnerable nature of these agreements we're all too familiar with. So in that respect, I note what the noble Lady has said, but if I could push her further, when are we going to deploy specifically on the minesweepers in which the UK and France have expertise, what additional support can we give in terms of naval assets to our Gulf partners in support of agreements such as CCP? And thirdly, also, how can we also extend this agreement? It includes Lebanon in terms of long standing support the previous government did, and the government before that to the Lebanese armed forces, so they can pursue a lasting and sustainable peace, including the disarming of Hezbollah.

15:23

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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I mean, these are great questions, and they're the exact questions we've been asking questions we've been asking ourselves in the department. I think when this is a framework agreement that we have at the moment, and I absolutely echo what he said shukran to Pakistan for the role that they have played in bringing the US and Iran to this point. And we do need to see this more detailed negotiation take place. And we do need to see this as a lasting ceasefire that we can use to then do the work that needs to be done to enable safe passage through the strait.

This will include, among other things, checking for mines and minesweeping. We have the necessary equipment to be able to do that jointly with others, and we are readying ourselves to do that. When he said and when he asked also about Lebanon, yes, it is vital that we see the ceasefire extend to Lebanon, because I believe, as we discussed, I think it was last week, the the governme supported in order to fight Hezbollah. And actually what has been happening has been undermining the government and reducing their capacity to do so.

15:24

Lord Austin of Dudley (Non-affiliated)

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The Lord Vaux needs to be welcomed that the Strait of Hormuz seem to be open. But will the seem to be open. But will the Minister confirm that this deal does not cover Iran's ballistic missiles programme, nor its sponsorship of regional terrorist proxies like Hamas and Hezbollah, nor its the terrorism it organises across Middle East, here in Europe and even in the UK. It doesn't cover its internal repression. And as I understand it, the Iranian regime are saying they're not going to give up their enriched their stockpiles of enriched uranium either.

So if all that is the case, how can this possibly be regarded as a foundation on which peace and stability can be built in the Middle East? Yes.

15:25

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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Well, it's a deal that we have today. It's a framework. It's a today. It's a framework. It's a start. It is better than we had previously, and it is enabling for now a ceasefire. The challenge, as I think is alluded to by my noble friend, is that this is just the beginning. And there are many, many things that need to be discussed and agreed upon in order for this ceasefire to have any durability, and it's the long standing position of this government and our predecessor governments that we do not wish to see Iran take forward any ambitions that it may have with regard to nuclear weaponry.

15:25

Lord Purvis of Tweed (Liberal Democrat)

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A long way before we will know whether or not this will be a sustainable end to the conflict, as sustainable end to the conflict, as the question asks. But if there is a welcoming opening of the Strait, will the government work with other governments to ensure that a priority for shipping would be those that have humanitarian cargo, especially food supplies for the World Food Programme, which has been held up, which is so desperately needed to be distributed, and also if there is to be a UK involvement, will the Minister agree with me that it should be underpinned by the United Nations? Because if this is this should be multilateral international law of the seas and it shouldn't be pegged with what could well be a fragile and transactional bilateral agreement between America and Iran.

15:26

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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Well, we've been. >> Well, we've been. >> Very clear. What we want to see is a strait opening, and we want this to be free of condition and open for all passage. And that is a position that is shared widely. He's absolutely right to remind us of the humanitarian needs at stake here. The impact of this closure not is not just felt because of the supplies that are held in terms of fertiliser, food and other goods, although that is certainly an issue.

And also the impact this is having on seafarers who've been held there

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the The impact on long term growth and access to those things was particularly not only but particularly for sub-Saharan Africa and is something that, you know, let us hope that this straight can let us hope that this straight can be kept open so that those goods can flow and those economies and those people can be supported.

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those people can be supported. Could the noble Baroness just clarify just one point? I'm slightly confused on if the United

15:27

Lord Bridges of Headley (Conservative)

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slightly confused on if the United States signs a deal in which ships will be paying a toll. Is it the position of His Majesty's Government and that of the French government? I think that they will be deploying forces to ensure that ships do not pay tolls.

15:27

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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Well, I don't think anyone is talking about tolls or us patrolling in order to secure payment of tolls. I don't know where he's got this from. This is not anything that anyone is seriously considering in the government.

15:28

Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston (Crossbench)

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My Lord, my Lord. >> My Lords. The closure of the Strait of Hormuz has led to some shortages in critical supply chains, and particularly thinking at the and particularly thinking at the moment of fertiliser, which is important for food production, both here but globally. Has the government made any assessment how long it would take, assuming that the current agreement actually held for the status quo and normal supplies to be reinstated?

15:28

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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I mean, I think this is really important. And I think even if the important. And I think even if the strait is to open immediately and for goods to flow, there will. There is already a scarring on many economies. We are particularly concerned about a number of countries in sub-Saharan Africa. It. You know, the impact will depend on planting seasons and agricultural practices. But it is likely that there is already going to be an impact on food security in some way

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or another. In some countries. Sorry.

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Sorry. Is it on the labour benches next?

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Well, isn't it the case that. My Lord. Would the Minister. Please

15:29

Lord Barber of Ainsdale (Labour)

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>> Would the Minister. Please assure me that she and the government at the highest levels intend to congratulate the Prime Minister of Pakistan, Shahbaz Minister of Pakistan, Shahbaz Sharif, on an awesome achievement, not just on what's going to be signed on Friday, but on his commitment long term to an enduring peace. Mr.

15:29

Lord Swire (Conservative)

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I'm very happy to assure my noble friend of that. I think the Mr. Sharif in Pakistan has done a good job here, and he deserves the commendation of all of those of us who wish to see the strait reopened.

15:29

Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Labour)

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I Lord Forsyth Lord Case. to see the release of billions of millions of dollars, tens of millions of dollars, which are currently blocked back to the Iranian regime from the US and other places. And if that is the case, does she share my concern that unless we watch very, very carefully and work very closely with our allies, some of that money could end up in places that we would rather it didn't?

15:30

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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I'm not aware that that is the case, so I'm unable to confirm that. And I think there is a great deal of speculation at the moment before the detail of this is worked through, and I would guard against that in this House, but I think there will, of course, be. This is a framework. It is a beginning. It is a very important step forward that we have. There is now a ceasefire. There was not a ceasefire previously. That is why this is a positive development.

But I think, as he rightly alludes to, there are many, many issues still yet to be resolved.

15:30

Lord Fox (Liberal Democrat)

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My Lords. beginning of this invasion, I asked her about the treaty between Bahrain, the United Kingdom and the United States. I followed that up with a letter with detailed questions and was promised a response which I have yet to receive. So perhaps she can answer now, given that this is a treaty of mutual support, at what point does it become relevant and why has it not been relevant to date in the keeping of that, those waters clear? Yes.

15:31

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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I sincerely apologise to noble Lord about a failure to respond to his letter, and I will go back to his letter, and I will go back to the department and find out why that has not been replied to. And that's most discourteous, and I'll

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make sure he gets his response promptly. Hello. Isn't it the case that after all the death and destruction after all the death and destruction that we've seen, that we appear to be backward to the Biden deal and at the same negotiations that were going place, were going forward, have now got to restart the position and start from afresh. position and start from afresh.

15:31

Lord Watts (Labour)

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Yeah, yeah. just don't know at this stage what the final agreement is going to look like. And as I responded to a question earlier, this is a framework at this point. It does enable a ceasefire to take place, enable a ceasefire to take place, which is incredibly positive. But the details of exactly what has been is going to be agreed. We don't yet know.

15:32

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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From Ben. that this is indeed a positive step, although we still need to see a lot of the detail. Could I ask the noble Baroness to say whether, if the strait is fully reopened, that will enable the government to bring will enable the government to bring forward the ban on imports of Russian diesel and jet fuel via third countries? third countries?

15:32

Lord Callanan (Conservative)

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I would encourage the noble Lord to attend an. See that we shall be discussing in about 20 minutes time where we'll. We will where we will be dealing with this issue of be dealing with this issue of product from Russia and Belarus that then is refined in third countries and has been able to be imported into this country in the future. That will no longer be the case. case.

15:32

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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Lord Hoffmann my Lords, we would all agree that a toll free opening of the Strait of Hormuz would be a

15:32

Lord Ricketts (Crossbench)

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great advantage for the world, of course. But surely, strategically, Iran has demonstrated a capacity to control close the strait, which will continue a capacity to hold the Gulf petrochemical areas at risk. Is it not therefore important that European diplomacy, British diplomacy, is involved in the discussions with the Gulf countries to move on from what has been to move on from what has been called a very fragile cease fire to a more durable settlement in the region, which means that we won't have to live through this again.

15:33

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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Well, I think noble Lord has made a very astute observation about exactly where we are in relation to where we were a few relation to where we were a few months ago. But he's he's also right to say that we must work closely with our Gulf partners and others to ensure that the free passage through the Strait is maintained, and that this is a stable settlement. This is this is very, very early stages. But the ambition that I think we all have is that the Straits are open because we know we do not want to find ourselves repeatedly in this level of disruption.

15:34

Baroness Helic (Conservative)

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Bearing in mind. >> The immense losses that this war has caused to the peoples in the region. For people around the world, especially the poorest, and for the especially the poorest, and for the global economy on which the United Kingdom depends, and for which British people will also pay a price. What steps will the government take to promote security cooperation among the countries in the Arabian stroke, Persian Gulf and beyond to ensure that there are no further wars in the region and uphold once again universally recognised principle that a peaceful resolution of disputes.

15:34

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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We work through many different agencies, as the noble Lady knows, to do this. But specifically on to do this. But specifically on this issue just recently, I know my hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has met. I think it's now 11 different foreign Ministers to discuss this issue. The Prime Minister, along with President Macron in France, has convened 50 plus countries to make sure that there is this broad based international coalition, which is specifically organised in order to secure long lasting peace.

15:35

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Labour)

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As my noble friend agree with, >> As my noble friend agree with, the United Kingdom, government is now able to play a far more positive part in relation to this issue than if it had followed the advice of the Leader of the Opposition and supported the ill advised invasion by Donald Trump. Yeah.

15:35

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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I'm very. advice that he was given from the Leader of the Opposition and others Leader of the Opposition and others to involve this country in in a ill thought out proposition. And I think that I think that that was the right decision for him to take for the country and also to enable him to play the role that he has now in bringing out, bringing about the situation where we're able to contribute to keeping the strait open, to clearing mines, to deploying the equipment that we have, to securing safe passage for those ships that are contained.

And we need to get that fertiliser, we need to get that fertiliser, food and other goods moving.

15:36

Lord Teverson (Liberal Democrat)

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But we must never forget that >> But we must never forget that Iran holds innocent British citizens as political hostages in that country. And I very much hope that country. And I very much hope that the Foreign Office, given an increased stability, perhaps in the region, can work harder to release people like the foreman that have been unjustifiably detained and imprisoned in Iran. Yeah.

15:36

Baroness Chapman of Darlington, Minister of State (Development) (Labour)

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There are. I mean, I every time >> There are. I mean, I every time we hear Craig and Lindsey and their the ordeal that they are suffering, we, you know, we must remember that we, you know, we must remember that point as much as we do admire their strength and stoicism, that they show every time they're able to communicate, it is wrong that they are held. And it's not just Craig and Lindsey Foreman. There are many others, too, who were held in Iran who should be released immediately.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

My Lords. If there are any noble Lords who wish to leave the chamber before next business is called, I suggest next business is called, I suggest this would be a good moment to do My My Lords, My Lords, we My Lords, we come My Lords, we come now My Lords, we come now to My Lords, we come now to a

**** Possible New Speaker ****

first reading. Baroness Blower my Lords, I beg to. Introduce a Bill.

15:38

Business of the House

15:41

Urgent Question Repeat: Defence Investment Plan

ago, the funding of the plan has been dogged by delay and uncertainty. Now, whatever the Defence Investment Plan contains, Defence Investment Plan contains, the financial settlement was deemed to be inadequate by the previous defence secretary, himself a widely respected Minister. To the extent that he resigned, we are now told his successor is to work within that same financial envelope, the one already rejected by his predecessor, Lords. In the space of predecessor, Lords. In the space of this last year, we have come in a complete circle.

Does the noble Lord, the Minister, agree that this Lord, the Minister, agree that this is an impossible situation for the Mod? And may I ask him what is his solution to this conundrum? solution to this conundrum?

15:42

Baroness Goldie (Conservative)

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Well. remarks that she started with? Can I also start by thanking the former Secretary of State for his work and

15:42

Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)

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indeed, wishing the the former Armed Forces Minister well as well. And also I know the whole House And also I know the whole House will join me in paying tribute to the UK commando forces who intercepted a Russian shadow fleet intercepted a Russian shadow fleet vessel over the weekend. There. Their courage, skill and professionalism is what we've come professionalism is what we've come to accept, to expect. But we should not just accept it. Can I can I say to the noble Baroness, the dip is now being finalised and the details of that will emerge in in due course, as they say.

But in terms of the conundrum that the noble Baroness mentioned, I would draw attention of the House to the comments made to the BBC by the Prime Minister on Friday, where he said directly to Chris Mason and I quote, we have another spending review coming up before the end of this Parliament and defence will be a number one priority in that spending review, which of course, is 2027. The particular defence investment plan is outside of a spending review. So all I would say to the noble Baroness is we have already increased defence spending.

The whatever the outcome of finalising the details around the dip at the moment, there will be additional money contained within that. And as the Prime Minister said, the spending review in 2027 defence will be a number one priority for that.

15:44

Lord Bruce of Bennachie (Liberal Democrat)

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PM has promised that the dip will be delivered before the July NATO summit. It's already a year NATO summit. It's already a year late, but all we get is promises and rhetoric, and also the threat and rhetoric, and also the threat of further cuts to the already hollowed out aid programme. So firstly, does the government no longer believe that aid contributes to our nation's security and cutting it to almost zero compromises, rather than reinforces the effectiveness of our defence leadership? Don't we need leadership? Where is it? And as the drift continues, are we advertising weakness to our enemies and undermining the confidence of our allies?

15:44

Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)

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We know is the answer to the >> We know is the answer to the last part of the noble Lords Lords question and in terms of aid and development, we are spending still development, we are spending still spending a significant sum of money with respect to to aid and development. But let me just say this around the dip. It does require a reprioritisation of resources. That is what we're looking at at the current time and how we ensure that we get the resources needed to do that within an affordable framework to the aid and development that he talks about has led already to billions of pounds of additional money, because that was a year or so ago that that changed to the priorities of government meant that huge sums of additional money could be added to the defence budget for that.

And all I would say is money has to come from somewhere. And I'll tell you, one of the biggest development programs you can have is to create security in various countries of the world. We see conflicts at the moment.

15:45

My Lord, my Lord. >> Can I pray? >> The dip has had a gestation period longer than an African period longer than an African elephant, and we are still no further forward. When it came into power, this government said it was power, this government said it was about growth and that was a growth agenda for Britain. Does my noble friend agree with me that growth agenda would be if we actually invested in our defence industries in this country, as opposed to doing what the Treasury keep doing, of going to the lowest bidder and moving those some of those contracts abroad.

This is a great uncertainty for UK industry. If we uncertainty for UK industry. If we are going to get those world changing technologies we need for our defence, we need to get on with our defence, we need to get on with it. Well.

15:46

Lord Beamish (Labour)

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So we're finalising the details of the as as it stands at the moment with the new Secretary of State in post. But can I agree wholeheartedly with the point that

15:46

Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)

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my noble friend has made just now, but always makes, quite rightly, about the need to ensure that any about the need to ensure that any increase in defence investment makes sure that it supports jobs and industry, both small and large, and industry, both small and large, within this country. And the other point I would make that my noble friend makes from the from his knowledge of the North East is we have to ensure that that growth is around the whole of the UK, around the regions and the nations of the UK to ensure that we all benefit from that increase in spending.

15:46

Lord Howard of Lympne (Conservative)

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Baroness Suttie can I. Minister has rightly. from somewhere. So may I make a suggestion? Why won't the government reduce current government reduce current departmental spending, not capital, current departmental spending by 1% a year, little more than a rounding error for more depart for most departments, which would free up over £35 billion over the planned period, more than enough to pay for the Defence Investment Plan.

15:47

Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)

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That that argument that the noble Lord has made a number of times as one way of funding any increase in defence spending, will have been looked at by the Treasury. What the government has done, the way the government has done it is, way the government has done it is, is to to look at money that has available as well as reprioritize reprioritizing various programs within, within a cross-government. And that's that's being done. But I'm sure that the suggestion, as well as other suggestions that many people have made as to how any increase in defence spending could be funded, will be another idea that can be looked at.

15:48

Lord Birt (Crossbench)

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Thank you. >> My Lords. I was very sad indeed to see such a capable and committed group of defence Ministers depleted by resignation, but very pleased, as was the noble Lady Baroness Goldie, to see the noble Lord. The Minister remains in his place with us today at the 2025 NATO summit, all allies agreed a core defence target spend for 2035 of 3.5% of GDP, which the Prime Minister explicitly accepted at the time. Is that still our target?

15:48

Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)

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Well, it's NATO target. So obviously remains the the the obviously remains the the the government's target of 3.5% by 2035. And what I did in the answer to And what I did in the answer to Baroness Goldie was to outline what the Prime Minister said on Friday in answer to a particular question from Chris Mason, which actually talked about the 3.5%. He said the current discussions that are taking place around the spending for the dip, the dip is outside of the spending review process.

We have another spending review in 2027 which can consider that as well. But of course, 2035 is a significant is a further eight years beyond that. So other spending reviews will take place, but it does remain the the policy of the government to reach that NATO objective. Yes.

15:49

Lord Harris of Haringey (Labour)

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My Lord, my Lord. >> This has been a bit of an omnishambles. Other terms, of course, are available. I won't ask course, are available. I won't ask my noble friend to agree with me, because that's probably a bit tricky, but could he confirm that already this government has invested substantially in defence, unlike the previous government which ran it down consistently. And can he also confirm that the national conversation and I refer to my interest in the register as chair of the National Preparedness Commission, that the national conversation to bring the realities of the situation that we face in the forefront of the public's mind will be commencing within the next few months, and that that will include not just defence, but also the need for homeland resilience.

15:50

Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)

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Or just to deal with the last point first. Yes, the national conversation will commence within the next few months, and we hope to involve a wide range of people. Can involve a wide range of people. Can I can I just say to my my noble friend, this is before the dip process and any further changes with respect to spending reviews in 2027. In 2020 425, the total deal was 60.2. In 2829, the total deal would be 73.5. So, as my noble friend points out, there's already been a significant increase in defence spending.

That's before any additional funds from the Dip or anything that may come from the spending review.

15:50

Lord Fox (Liberal Democrat)

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My Lord, my Lords, Minister, I'm sure, will be aware that the nature of war, as we're seeing in Ukraine, has substantially changed and is substantially changed and is changing with almost every week that passes. In order for us to meet that challenge, we need innovation. So coming back to the noble Lord Beamish question, how will the Ministry of Defence change the way in which it procures things to make sure that Britain's innovative supply chain can contribute fully to our defence?

15:51

Lord Coaker, The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Labour)

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The way we're going to do that is to make small, small industries can also contribute because they make a massive, a massive contribution to the to the defence contribution to the to the defence of our country. And if you look in all of the whether it be the strategic defence review in all of the various policy papers that are produced by by the Mod, it's also about buying British. But it's also about making sure that small and medium sized countries companies have the option as well, because one of the lessons from Ukraine is you don't necessarily need huge multi multi-billion pound conglomerates or the big companies of the of today that many of the, the small companies of that which are providing the fighting material that's needed on the front line.

And that certainly is something a lesson that the dip will take forward as well.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

My Lords, the House is about to move into committee. So I would suggest if there are noble Lords suggest if there are noble Lords who wish to leave, and this is For For my For my Lords. My Lords has to be in committee on

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