House of Lords
Pension Access Rules: Impact on Terminally Ill
(1 day, 4 hours ago)
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Baroness Martin of Brockley
To ask His Majesty’s Government, in light of the ongoing pensions review, what assessment they have made of the impact of current private pension access rules on the financial security of working-age people living with a terminal diagnosis.
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Livermore) (Lab)
My Lords, currently, individuals with a life expectancy of less than 12 months may take a serious ill health lump sum at any age, subject to medical evidence and scheme rules. This is tax-free below age 75, up to £1.073 million, after which it is taxed as income. However, while the current rules are intended to provide flexibility, the Government recognise that the permissive nature of these rules means that individuals may experience varying hurdles to access depending on their scheme. The Government wish to ensure a fair and compassionate approach to allowing access to pension savings in cases of terminal illness, and will, therefore, now consider this issue in further detail.
Baroness Martin of Brockley (Lab)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his Answer. It is encouraging to hear that the Government will look again at this important issue. The rules on access to private pensions for terminally ill people were designed for an era when terminal diagnosis often meant death within months, but medicine has moved on. For cancer alone, around one-half of patients now survive 10 years or more, compared to just one in four in the 1970s. Can the Minister confirm that, when the Government look at this issue, they will ensure that access rules reflect modern clinical reality rather than leaving people who may live for many years with a terminal diagnosis unable to access funds that are rightfully theirs?
Lord Livermore (Lab)
I am very grateful to my noble friend for her question. I agree with her that the current definition for when someone with a terminal illness can access their pension savings is clearly outdated and does not align with wider legislation, including the DWP’s standard definition, so I can confirm that the Government will now review this. Individual private pension schemes also have their own requirements for terminally ill people to access their pension savings. The Government will therefore also examine the access options across these schemes and will consider what changes may be needed to ensure that people have appropriate access while safeguarding against the risk of financial hardship later in life.
Baroness Kramer (LD)
My Lords, I am very glad to hear the words of the Government and the Minister on this issue, because it is an issue where remedy is absolutely required. I add an additional point, which is that many of those who will die, sadly, of a terminal illness at a young age will have put money aside or been due a state pension had they lived to the normal end of life, and therefore the tax benefit that they get is very largely offset by the fact that they will never receive the state pension that is their due, so the net cost to the Government is not quite as some might think it is.
Lord Livermore (Lab)
I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her support for what I said. As she said, unlike a personal workplace pension, which can potentially be drawn down earlier, a state pension can be accessed only at the state pension age, and there are no current plans to change this. However, for those nearing the end of their life, special benefit rules apply. These enable people who are nearing the end of their life to get faster and easier access to certain benefits without needing to attend a medical assessment and, in most cases, enable them to receive the highest rate of benefit. These rules apply to five benefits that support people with health conditions or disabilities: personal independence payment; disability living allowance; attendance allowance; universal credit; and employment and support allowance.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)
The Government’s review is much to be welcomed, because of the disparity. Given that 33% of working-age people with children who are terminally ill are recognised as dying in poverty, will the Government also look at the ability of people who withdraw their private pension to access a full range of benefits, including universal credit, so that they are not jeopardised and we do not end up with a situation where people who are trying to invest in their long-term future are penalised for doing so?
Lord Livermore (Lab)
Yes, I think I can; I think that is broadly along the lines of what I covered in my previous answer—that those who are nearing the end of their life should be able to get faster and easier access to certain benefits. As the noble Baroness is asking, those benefits include support for people with health conditions or disabilities: personal independence payment; disability living allowance; attendance allowance; universal credit; and employment and support allowance.
Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)
I very much welcome the response from my noble friend the Minister. It is of particular importance that the variation in the schemes’ practice is part of the review, and obviously a full consultation will be required. When people provided with a pension have been encouraged to think of it as a pot of money, does my noble friend agree that it is particularly important that, at times of great personal difficulty, they have the opportunity to realise what they have been told is theirs?
Lord Livermore (Lab)
Yes, I agree with my noble friend, and I am grateful to him for what he says about the review. As he says, individual private pension schemes have their own requirements for terminally ill people to access their pension savings. That does mean that, too often, individuals experience too many varying hurdles to access, depending on their scheme. The Government will examine the access options across these schemes and consider what changes may be needed to ensure people have appropriate access. To be clear, it is tax-free below the age of 75, up to a total sum of £1.073 million.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
My Lords, The Pensions Review, along with a whole body of work done by organisations such as the Institute for Fiscal Studies, raises serious concerns about pension adequacy and retirement saving. What steps is the Minister taking to improve financial education and public understanding of the need to save adequately for retirement, particularly among groups such as the self-employed, who are less well served by the auto-enrolment system?
Lord Livermore (Lab)
I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her ongoing championing of financial education. I know it is something that she feels passionately about and we have discussed it before. As she knows, financial education now forms part of the school curriculum in all UK nations. In England, financial education forms a compulsory part of the curriculum in mathematics at key stages 1 to 4 and in citizenship at key stages 3 and 4. Together, these cover personal budgeting, saving for the future, financial risk, managing credit and debt, and calculating interest. In terms of the adult population that she refers to, and small and medium-sized enterprises in particular, the DBT is considering this as part of its small businesses work, and I will certainly look into it further in light of her question.
Lord Pitt-Watson (Lab)
I also thank my noble friend the Minister for carrying out this review. In doing so, I wonder if it will be possible to address the problem of inconsistencies in regulation. For example, the definition of “terminal illness” is different in pensions regulation and for the DWP. Can we come up with just one definition which is clear, consistent and also kind, given the circumstances under which it is going to be turned to?
Lord Livermore (Lab)
There is a great deal in what my noble friend says. Obviously, I cannot prejudge the outcome of the review, but the principles that he sets out for what the definition should look like sound very sensible and important. We will now review the situation because, clearly, the definition currently is out of step and does not align with wider legislation, including the DWP’s standard definition. I cannot prejudge it, but I agree that it would be ideal if there was now one standard definition.
Lord Forbes of Newcastle (Lab)
My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister share my concerns about the levels of stress and anxiety that this issue causes people who not only face huge practical and emotional challenges as a result of their terminal diagnosis but also find themselves having to navigate a complex and inconsistent pension system, largely at the discretion of private providers? Can he, in the review and when discussing this with colleagues, give further consideration to the additional practical support many in these circumstances may need at such a difficult time in their lives?
Lord Livermore (Lab)
I am grateful to my noble friend. He is absolutely right that the current rules are obviously intended to provide flexibility, but the downside is that the permissive nature of those rules means that individuals may experience varying hurdles to access, depending on their scheme. That does not feel right, so that is exactly why the Government will now examine the access options across these schemes and will consider what changes may be needed to ensure people have the appropriate access. My noble friend is absolutely right about the stress and anxiety that must be experienced trying to navigate those different schemes with the different rules applying, so I absolutely agree wholeheartedly with what my noble friend says.
Women’s Representation in Peace Processes
(1 day, 4 hours ago)
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The Lord Bishop of Gloucester
To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to promote women’s representation in peace processes in conflict-affected regions.
The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)
My Lords, the Government are firmly committed to the women, peace and security agenda. We see women’s representation not as an addition to peacebuilding but as central to more effective conflict prevention and resolution. Over the last two years, we have supported women’s safe and meaningful participation in processes in Sudan, Colombia, Iraq, Myanmar, South Sudan, Syria and the Philippines, among others, and worked to integrate women’s perspectives into all UK support on conflict resolution.
The Lord Bishop of Gloucester
I am very grateful to the Minister for that Answer. Would she please say more about how the commitments in this plan will be translated into measurable, accountable outcomes, particularly where women’s participation remains limited? Could she also say how the Government are supporting female-led grass-roots organisations in conflict-affected regions through flexible, accessible funding?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
We fund many such organisations. The right reverend Prelate is right to highlight the significant role that women and women-led organisations play, not just in negotiating. Processes that involve women are also more likely to be successful, and the peace that is secured is more likely to last—there is lots of evidence that this is the case. The outcome she asked me about, which eventually we would be looking to measure, is that we resolve more of the conflicts we see around the world. I have to say that, as of today, we are not seeing enough success.
Lord Bellingham (Con)
My Lords, the Minister in her substantive reply mentioned Sudan. She will be aware that, during this appalling conflict, rape is being used habitually as a weapon of war, and quite atrociously also against minors. This constitutes among the most significant crimes against humanity: war crimes. Can she assure the House that everything possible is being done to identify those culprits, so that when peace eventually comes to that troubled nation, those people will face justice?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
If only it was just Sudan—but it is not. The noble Lord asked about Sudan specifically. We have instigated and funded a fact-finding mission so that testimonies can be gathered and the relevant data can be held, so that accountability can happen. He is absolutely right about the horrific nature of these crimes. The grotesque way in which rape is committed and the mutilation of women that takes place as part of this horrifies us all, and we must use every mechanism we can to prevent it.
Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Lab)
The Minister has given us a list of places where terrible conflicts have taken place. I noticed that Gaza was not included. A rather nonsensical peace board has been created. It would be interesting to hear how many women are involved in that, never mind the absence of Palestinians. What do the Government make of it?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
For a peace process to be successful, it must be inclusive. That includes Palestinian representation, and it should include women, because in just about every example of any kind of agreement withstanding the tests it invariably encounters, it is the inclusive nature of the settlement that gives it the strength to survive.
Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)
My Lords, I welcome the Government’s and the Minister’s commitment to trying to ensure that women are involved. I am sure that she will agree that in recent years we have seen conflicts mostly promoted by misogynist men who have no interest in the rights of women. Will the Government call on the US, Israel and Iran to include women in the negotiations as the best way to present conflict reigniting? As she says, without women’s involvement, the chances of settlements sticking are very low. Will she pressure those countries to recognise Resolution 1325 and implement it?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
I do not hesitate to support what the noble Lord has said about the inclusion of women. I would go a little bit further and say that peace which is achieved, or pauses in conflict which are achieved, through imposition of agreements that have not been negotiated through the long, hard, diligent, inclusive process that we all know about in this Chamber rarely stand the test of time.
Lord Callanan (Con)
My Lords, earlier the noble Baroness referred to the importance of strong, women-led organisations. We on our Benches are very proud of our record of having strong women leaders in charge of our organisation. We are now on our fourth, so we well know the impact that women can make at the very top of politics. What role is the Government playing in encouraging our international partners to recognise the unique contribution that women can make in leadership roles?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
As a woman who has worked in politics for longer than I care to admit, I welcome the noble Lord’s sisterly solidarity. What are we doing? We fund many women-led organisations. We insist at the Security Council—when we are able to—that women’s participation is embedded in resolutions. We participate fully in multilateral organisations that are supporting the work of women in this context.
Baroness Deech (CB)
My Lords, women suffer disproportionately in times of war, and it is odd that the most warmongering countries are usually those that treat women very badly even when there is not a war. A recent example is the systematic use of sexual violence by Hamas. Will the UK support moves at the United Nations and the International Criminal Court to recognise and sanction a new crime, conflict-related sexual violence, the details of which have been worked out by a project called the Dinah Project?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
I will look very carefully at that. It sounds like the sort of initiative that the UK would be interested in supporting. There are so many examples of where sexual violence is used to subjugate communities, to humiliate and to destroy societies. This is something where we have seen the world going backwards, not forwards at the moment. Anybody who cares passionately about this, as I do, needs to use every avenue in order to bring this to an end.
Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee (Non-Afl)
The Minister has made reference to sustainable peace agreements. I am very pleased to come from an area where we have a sustainable peace agreement, but one which has to be worked on continuously. Have the Minister or the Government given any thought to using the example of Northern Ireland and the strong women leaders in Northern Ireland who can come forward and show other areas why it is important to have women involved in peace processes?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
We do, and we are asked about the example and our experience in Northern Ireland. The noble Baroness has far more knowledge of this than I do, of course, but it is seen as instructive. We always make the point that the inclusion of women, women’s leadership and community representation was essential to creating an agreement that has stood the test of time. As she said, it needs to be cherished and protected and we need to make sure that it lasts, even still now. But the point that she makes is right. Yes, we do include conversations about Northern Ireland whenever that is relevant.
Baroness Hodgson of Abinger (Con)
My Lords, it can be very difficult for women to take part in peace agreements without support and training. If they are excluded from peace processes, it can mean that there is no long-term peace for half the population: the women. In particular, the Minister mentioned a number of places where we are supporting women. Are we offering the Yemeni women any support? They are suffering terribly.
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
I met the female Minister from Yemen just yesterday. The noble Baroness is right that women in Yemen are suffering terribly and yes, we do work to provide support. I will get back to the noble Baroness on specific programmes and exactly how that is done, because I do not want to mislead, but the point the noble Baroness makes about women in leadership is exactly right.
Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
My Lords, in March, the Commons International Development Committee reported on its inquiry into women, peace and security. It said that
“our report finds that the Government has failed to deliver on policy commitments relating to the inclusion of women, girls and marginalised groups in meaningful participation and conflict prevention”.
Paragraph 4 states:
“We find that the Government continues to reduce funding and resourcing towards WPS … despite the devastating impacts this has on women and girls”.
The Minister was right: the need is greater. So, why are a Labour Government cutting the very thing that is needed for women, girls, peace and security?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
We have protected the £7 million that we spend centrally on women, peace and security. That is just a fact. I do not know what time period the report was referring to. It was published in March, but obviously it is retrospective. There is less money to spend as part of our aid budget, that is true. We have had to make some hard decisions. But even though we have had to make trade-offs and difficult choices, without a doubt, we have protected our central spending on this issue, for good reason.
University Student Finance
(1 day, 4 hours ago)
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The Minister of State, Department for Education and Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Smith of Malvern) (Lab)
My Lords, this Government are taking decisive action to improve the student finance system that we inherited. We are capping interest rates to protect plan 2 and plan 3 borrowers from inflation shocks. We increased the plan 2 repayment threshold twice—its first increases since 2021. We have future-proofed maintenance loans, and we will be reintroducing maintenance grants in 2028. We will continue to look for ways to make the system fairer for students, graduates and taxpayers.
Lord Hain (Lab)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Minister for that Answer, but surely the student finance system inherited from the Conservatives is an utter shambles: there is mountainous student debt, averaging £70,000, compounding at extortionate interest rates; the Treasury is left with ginormous liabilities, because half is never repaid and is written off; and nearly half of UK universities have rising deficits, with closures and mergers forecast, thousands of lecturers sacked and diminished teaching standards. For every £3.50 paid by taxpayers on debt cancellation, just £1 is spent on teaching students. This is madness. Will the Government implement a graduate tax, estimated at 2%, much lower than the 9% now compulsorily deducted from graduate workers above the repayment threshold? This would be much fairer for students, good for universities and good for taxpayers.
Baroness Smith of Malvern (Lab)
My Lords, I acknowledge my noble friend’s criticisms of plan 2 loans, which were designed by the Conservative and Liberal Democrat coalition. Having said that, in principle, a combination of income-contingent student loans and grants is a fair way to ensure that those who benefit from higher education contribute, while lower earners are protected. On the point about the financial sustainability of higher education, our increase of the tuition fee cap is now providing more certainty to higher education about its income from tuition fees, which should enable it to take a longer-term view of its workforce planning and to protect the talent that exists within our higher education institutions. A graduate tax would dramatically increase upfront costs for taxpayers and incentivise graduates to move overseas after completing study. I suspect that these are just a couple of the reasons why no country has ever financed higher education in this way.
The Earl of Clancarty (CB)
My Lords, bearing student finance in mind, what criteria are the Government using to define what they call “poor-quality” university courses?
Baroness Smith of Malvern (Lab)
First, the Office for Students is undertaking a new approach to measuring the quality of what is being provided in our universities. Secondly, we have seen through some of the research published last week the ability to determine what the returns are from individual courses. It is for that reason that we will take action to prevent the expansion of those courses that are not providing the returns or experience that students have the right to expect. If necessary, we will legislate to do that.
Lord Johnson of Marylebone (Con)
My Lords, the Minister is entirely right to be sceptical about a graduate tax. I am glad to hear her repeat the commitment to automatic indexation of tuition fees. However, that requires legislation—of which there was no mention in the King’s Speech. What are the Government’s plans for giving effect to that commitment?
Baroness Smith of Malvern (Lab)
The first thing that indexation of tuition fee caps needs is political will from a Government. It was a lack of that political will that meant that they were frozen for seven years under the previous Government. We have already taken action, two years in a row, to increase the tuition fee cap. We will continue to do this up to the point at which we can legislate to index that.
Lord Mohammed of Tinsley (LD)
My Lords, I recently attended a meeting in my home city of Sheffield, where students and staff from the University of Sheffield and Sheffield Hallam University came together to highlight the chronic financial pressures that are leading to staff lay-offs and the closure of some of the courses. The key message from that meeting was: “When will this Government bring forward a long-term financial strategy that puts university education on a more secure and sound financial footing?”
Baroness Smith of Malvern (Lab)
We acknowledge the challenges that are facing higher education providers. While the providers are independent of government and responsible for managing their finances, it is this Government who have acted to secure a financial future for our world-leading higher education sector. We have increased tuition fee caps in line with forecast inflation for 2026-27 and 2027-28. We appointed Professor Edward Peck as chair of the Office for Students. He is working to strengthen its commitment to financial sustainability. The tuition fee increase brings into the sector an additional £6 billion over the next few years. Given that greater financial stability for the sector, we expect providers to work with their staff to develop sustainable models that retain talent and expertise and provide stability for the workforce and the institution.
Baroness Cash (Con)
My Lords, I welcome the Minister’s indications in response to questions so far. However, three months on from her first announcement about poor-value courses, we are still waiting for the information that is needed for students to assess which courses they should avoid before they are saddled with lifetime debt. The best advice seems to be to choose carefully, but some applicants are choosing now. Can the Minister give us some idea of when there will be better data available?
Baroness Smith of Malvern (Lab)
I am sure that the noble Baroness will have seen the data last week from the IFS using LEO data. It identifies those courses which are most likely to bring a positive return for students. It is worth remembering that, after the repayment of student debt, the majority of students will receive throughout their lifetime a positive return from going to university. The information published last week was clear about which courses would be less likely to provide that positive return. That does not mean that there may be no reasons for taking those courses, but it is information that students can use. Also, through Discover Uni and working with UCAS, we will ensure that this information is more easily available to students when they are making decisions, as the noble Baroness says.
Lord Grabiner (CB)
My Lords, can the Minister tell us what the current state of the student debt is?
Baroness Smith of Malvern (Lab)
The current student loan book stands at £296 billion.
Lord Sikka (Lab)
As the Minister just said, the student debt in England is £296 billion and is expected to hit £500 billion by the late 2040s. Interest is added until debt is repaid or written off. What assessment have the Government made of the impact of student loan repayments on the ability of the affected people to buy a home or to start a business or a family?
Baroness Smith of Malvern (Lab)
Of course, the income-contingent nature of student loan repayments means that those on lower incomes are protected. They have been further protected by this Government’s raising of the threshold two years in a row. The fact that 30% of student loans will never be repaid and will be subsidised by the Government is a legitimate subsidy for students undertaking higher education and an investment in our higher education system and in the future of those who go to university.
Lord Willetts (Con)
My Lords, the Minister rightly referred to the recent IFS report showing that on average graduates will earn £100,000 more than if they had not gone to university. That is why a graduate repayment scheme is fair. Can I invite her to place in the Library of the House of Lords an updated version of the note produced by the Blair Government explaining why a graduate tax was unworkable and unfair?
Baroness Smith of Malvern (Lab)
I am not sure that I am going to turn the attention of the department to doing that, but I have outlined some of the reasons why I do not think that a graduate tax is the magic bullet that some people believe it might be. Notwithstanding that, I understand the concerns of graduates, in particular those who are repaying plan 2 loans, which is why this Government have already taken action to make them fairer, and we will continue to look at ways to ensure that higher education institutions, students and graduates get a fair deal out of higher education.
Extreme Heat: Resilience of NHS Infrastructure
(1 day, 4 hours ago)
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Earl Russell
To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the resilience of NHS infrastructure to extreme heat; and what steps they are taking to ensure that NHS buildings are adequately equipped to withstand prolonged periods of extreme heat.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)
My Lords, extreme heat does pose a serious risk to NHS buildings and services. All NHS organisations are required to have effective arrangements in place for adverse weather. We are supporting trusts to target the most critical estates risks with £6.75 billion over nine years, including risks that need to be dealt with in respect of cooling and ventilation; and we are ensuring that new hospitals and new-build neighbourhood health centres have climate resilience embedded in their design from the outset.
Earl Russell (LD)
I welcome the Answer from the noble Baroness. Last Wednesday was the London Ambulance Service’s busiest ever day for life-threatening emergencies, and at least six NHS trusts declared critical incidents. Nine in ten of our NHS buildings are ill-equipped to handle heat. The Climate Change Committee’s report, A Well-Adapted UK, argues urgently for solar batteries and cooling across all public buildings, yet Great British Energy’s programme covers only 200 out of 1,200 NHS sites. Therefore, will the Minister commit to ensuring that every hospital has solar battery storage and air-source heat pumps by 2035?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
The Government are indeed providing trusts with substantial investment—I mentioned just some of it—in these measures, and that is very much in line with the Government’s net-zero ambitions and intent. We are investing £155 million in solar projects and £400 million in heat decarbonisation grants across the NHS. I emphasise that, looking forward, all NHS new builds and major upgrades will align with the net-zero building standard.
Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston (CB)
My Lords, following the Question from the noble Earl, Lord Russell, before we have all those solar systems in place, I urge the Minister to audit major hospital trusts on their back-up power systems, and in particular to ensure that the refrigeration facilities are available continuously for the storage of medicines, life support systems and all the other essential elements that require electricity.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
Yes indeed, and I go back to my point about the £6.75 billion estates safety fund, the whole intention of which is to target the most serious risks, such as those the noble Baroness refers to. Vital projects will attract that funding. They include overheating risks such as broken chillers, outdated air-handling units and, if needed, refrigeration—in other words, where there is a need for urgent upgrades.
Viscount Stansgate (Lab)
My Lords, last night, here in the House, the Parliamentary and Scientific Committee, of which I am president, held a meeting on the effects of extreme heat in the workplace. During that meeting, reference was made to the fact that, during last week’s heatwave, several MRI machines failed. Will my noble friend extend an invitation to the Physiological Society, which has done a great deal of work on the effects of heat on the human body, and consult it on possible ways these types of events can be avoided?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My noble friend raises an important point. It is important to note that extreme heat particularly affects buildings with poor insulation and limited natural ventilation, which, by their very nature—I am describing many health settings—heavily rely on such measures if there is heat-generating equipment like imaging suites and IT systems. Also, 11% of buildings in the NHS estate are older than the NHS itself, which gives some sense of the scale. We have committed £10.5 million in research funding to develop effective cooling solutions that can be used across the whole system. It may well be that the organisation to which my noble friend refers is part of that, but I will take his suggestion back to the department.
Lord Kamall (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for answering the Question of the noble Earl, Lord Russell, on new-build hospitals, but there is clearly a question about existing hospitals and facilities. I wonder what plan or strategy there is, and whether it is written down, to identify hospitals that do critical and time-sensitive procedures, to make sure that they are prioritised when there are extreme heat conditions, and to commission independent hospitals with the appropriate cooling and ventilation systems to allow those critical operations to go ahead.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
We are already investing some £30 billion of capital across the NHS estate. I have mentioned the most serious infrastructure risks, which the noble Lord rightly refers to. While we accept the age of the estate and its size—I noted in preparing for this Question that we are talking about the equivalent of 4,000 football pitches—we also have a backlog of maintenance issues, which have grown and grown. We estimate that some £15.9 billion is needed. While there are no easy solutions, we do have a resilience plan not just for overheating but for all threats to resilience arising from temperature. We are also providing the funding—although, to the point the noble Lord makes, it is down to local decision-making—and ensuring that we are assisting the estate across the country to meet the challenges, the priority being those areas that need it most.
Baroness Pidgeon (LD)
My Lords, aside from the estate, patients on medications known to cause issues in extreme heat are not always being given specific advice on adjusting use of these during extreme weather and, as a result, have been admitted to hospital. What work is the department doing, particularly given that we have further hot weather coming, to ensure that patients receive the right advice and support to avoid hospital admissions as a result of such hot weather?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
The recent heat health alert was the first alert since July 2022. Importantly, the UK Health Security Agency has updated its weather health alert system in order that action can be taken and preparations put in place. It has also expanded its guidance, communications and the training of staff across the health and social care sector, so they can better deal with the challenges.
Lord Krebs (CB)
My Lords, I was very pleased to hear the Minister say in response to the Question of the noble Earl, Lord Russell, that all new hospitals and hospital projects in the pipeline will be climate-proofed, and that that will include resistance to extreme heat. However, I would like to ask about care homes. The most vulnerable in society include the elderly—a category to which I admit I belong, along with a number of other noble Lords—and care homes are therefore an important element of protection against extreme heat. What plans do the Government have to ensure that care homes are as well protected from extreme heat as the Minister says hospitals will be in future?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
Clearly it is a different situation, in terms not of climate but of the estate. I know the noble Lord is aware of this, but it is worth pointing out that the social care sector is rather more fragmented and includes the private sector. However, for social care, advice is available about what measures to put in place, along with training.
Baroness O’Grady of Upper Holloway (Lab)
My Lords, many workers across many sectors are suffering unbearable temperatures that they are expected to work in, and that is increasing demand on the NHS and its services. Does the Minister agree with the principle that health and safety laws can drive adaptations in workplaces necessary for the health and safety of the workforce, as happened with the introduction of a minimum working temperature? Is it time that we had a maximum working temperature, as the TUC has called for?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I acknowledge the push my noble friend is making. She will understand that the decision she asked me to comment on is not one for my department, but I will certainly draw it to the attention of the appropriate ministerial colleague.
Civil Service Pension Scheme
(1 day, 4 hours ago)
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Lord Davies of Brixton
To ask his Majesty’s Government what further steps they are taking to resolve difficulties being experienced with the administration of the Civil Service Pension Scheme, in particular the failure to pay new pensioners.
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent) (Lab)
My Lords, midnight tonight marks the deadline by which Capita promised a complete return to normal contractual service levels. We will hold Capita’s performance against this important milestone. The Minister for the Cabinet Office intends to provide a comprehensive update in the coming days, once we have fully evaluated the data. We have been consistently clear that we will not hesitate to take firm action for continued underperformance. I will endeavour to repeat any Statement in your Lordships’ House, subject to agreement by the usual channels.
Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)
I thank my noble friend the Minister for her reply. The issue is getting a return to normal service standards, which was hoped to be achieved by June—by today—but clearly it simply has not happened. Many new pensioners are still losing their earnings income and not receiving their pension, leaving them in poverty. It is clearly an important and urgent matter. It is time to reconsider the contractual arrangements, but I hope my noble friend will agree that the important issue now is urgent action to help those facing poverty.
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
My noble friend raises a very important issue. While there are contractual issues at play, the reality is that behind each and every one of the statistics that we will undoubtedly discuss today there is an individual and a family who are struggling. We have heard many harrowing and heartbreaking stories. We previously set out two recovery targets, including an end-of-June milestone by which we expected a return to standard, contractually required levels. The end of June deadline has now arrived, and Capita has completely failed to meet this milestone for all services, as well as missing its initial April target. Since its explicit personal assurances have not been met and core outputs are deficient, we are deploying a unified package of escalating measures, including independent technical audits and an on-the-ground remedial adviser to hold it ruthlessly to account. I look forward to discussing the detail of this after my right honourable friend the Paymaster-General has made a Statement to Members of the other place in the coming days.
Baroness Finn (Con)
My Lords, Capita’s failures are unacceptable, but this also raises serious questions about the Cabinet Office’s own contract management. Given the warnings before handover, what further interventions are Ministers prepared to make if service levels are not restored? What lessons have been learned to ensure that this saga is not repeated, and will the Minister commit to including the actions taken as a result of those lessons learned in the update in the coming days?
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
My Lords, I gently remind the noble Baroness that this contract and its details were signed by the previous Government. We are now trying to fix, and seek assurances for, a contract that has failed many people.
On the detail and the actions of the Cabinet Office, we have established a pension recovery task force led by Angela MacDonald, the Second Permanent Secretary at HMRC. There are 140 surge staff, the costs of which Capita confirmed in a letter to the Cabinet Office in April it will be funding. Capita has surged its number of support staff as well; 500 people are working on the contract, which is a 50% per cent increase on the previous contract. Clearly, however, too many individuals are waiting.
Regarding the details that the noble Baroness has requested, obviously a Statement is coming. If they are not included in that, I know she will make sure that I write to her with the details as and when we get to that point.
Lord Pack (LD)
When I previously asked the Minister in what circumstances a failure by a supplier could result in its being banned from future contracts, she said
“authorities can now also exclude suppliers who failed to rectify poor performance under a contract with a public authority despite an opportunity to do so, provided the issue is continuing”.
That sounds very much like the current situation with Capita, so I ask the Minister: how close are we now to Capita being excluded from future contracts, and what level of further failure on this contract would trigger its exclusion from any future contracts?
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
There are two separate parts to this, which include the current contract. On debarment and the Procurement Act, while I cannot go into the specific details of this case right now, I assure the House that the Government remain committed to taking necessary and proportionate actions in accordance with the law.
With regard to Capita as a supplier, we need to remember how many contracts it supplies to government. It has a total of 85 contracts across the public sector, 39 in central government and 46 with the wider public sector. While there have been significant, outrageous failures in this contract, the reality is that, in operating its other contracts, it is currently meeting 87% of its KPIs, so this has to be assessed on a case-by-case basis. However, to reassure Members of your Lordships’ House, outside of the contract for the Civil Service and the Royal Mail pension schemes—I updated the House on the latter earlier this year—the Cabinet Office does not have any further contracts with Capita.
Lord Wigley (PC)
My Lords, does the Minister accept that a figure of 23,000 has been identified as the number of those who have been caught by this problem? Those who are newly retired may still have payments to make on mortgages on their houses and may be in danger of losing them. Is there no mechanism that can be brought forward immediately to make estimated payments to those who have a pension entitlement but no figure coming through so that they avoid the worst excesses that could come their way unless this is resolved?
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
The noble Lord is right that this is affecting people’s day-to-day existence—we have seen in the news coverage at the weekend quite how heartbreaking that has been. We are working on a case-by-case basis. Some of the most harrowing cases have been raised with colleagues at the other end of the building and we are working with MPs, including by having virtual surgeries every day since 29 May, to help them support their constituents in this space.
I want to raise two specifics that it is important for your Lordships to be aware of. First, we have doubled the amount available in transitional support loans—it was £10,000 last time I was at the Dispatch Box on this issue; it is now £20,000 that is available to everybody who is not yet accessing their pension. I urge noble Lords, if they know people in this space, to let members of the scheme know that they are to contact the department they worked for and they can access £20,000 in a loan. We have also introduced a process to pay interest in respect of pensions payable by Capita from 1 December 2025 where full benefits are paid more than one month after retirement. The interest rates applied will be based on Bank of England base rates plus 1% for the period of delay between retirement and payment. However, the noble Lord is right: we need to do this as quickly as possible and get people their money.
Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)
My Lords, I declare an interest in that my wife is a beneficiary of the Civil Service Pension Scheme. She was entitled to her first payment on 1 October last year and she received it on 3 June this year. We can afford to take that hit, but thousands of Civil Service pensioners cannot. What assurances are we going to get, first, that people are compensated for the loss of their pension over a period; secondly, that there will be a full inquiry into the way in which the scheme was operated by Capita; and, thirdly, that Capita is properly held to account in terms of bidding for contracts in future.
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
I thank my noble friend, and I am truly sorry for the experiences that his wife has had; I am pleased that she has now received her pension. My noble friend’s factual story is unfortunately all too familiar given recent events. He is absolutely right. The reality is that the Government are trying to fix what has clearly been broken while establishing the facts. We are trying to prioritise the most vulnerable and put in support processes. Then, it is fair to say, we will establish and determine exactly what went wrong and where, making sure this can never happen again.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)
My Lords, did the contract that was signed by the previous Government have penalties in it if the party failed to deliver what was required of them, and if so, are they being implemented?
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
I thank my noble friend. We have already withheld nearly £10 million in transition contract payments for undelivered milestones from Capita. This represents our continuous position that public funds will only ever pay for what is successfully delivered to the required standard, and this figure is not the sum total of withheld payments across the wider contract lifecycle. This is obviously only stage 1. I look forward to being able to further update your Lordships’ House next week.
Lord Spellar (Lab)
My Lords, is not the systemic failure here that the Civil Service refused to take past performance into account? That is completely contrary to normal life. If someone did a job on your house or on your car and failed, or if you took a holiday with a company that failed, not only would you not use them again but you would advise everybody else not to. If we want only one example, it was the Capita failure on the Army recruitment programme, which was an utter disaster for service recruitment. Is it not time that we changed that so that past performance counted? That would focus the attention of management on fulfilling the contracts they have got rather than on the contracts they hope to get.
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
I thank my noble friend—I think. He is absolutely right. He and I were members of the Defence Select Committee in the other place and discussed the terms of the recruitment contract for the Armed Forces in great detail. There have clearly been challenges in the past, but I remind noble Lords that Capita is meeting 87% of its KPIs on other contracts. However, the issue that the noble Lord has raised is incredibly important. Given that, only last week, the Cabinet Office issued a Written Ministerial Statement making clear our insourcing drive and the public interest test, I hope all these factors are brought into account.
Lord Redwood (Con)
My Lords, will the Government be asking the contractor for compensation for their costs and inconveniences, as well as the contribution it should be making to those who have lost on their pension?
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right. We have already done so, and Capita confirmed in writing in April that it will meet the costs that we have laid out.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, following on from the question from the noble Lord, Lord Spellar, is it not a fact that government has become vulnerable because so many services have been outsourced and there are very few companies that can win contracts? Therefore, there is not much option but to use Capita. Do we not have to rethink the whole question of government capacity and outsourcing?
Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)
My noble friend is absolutely right, which is why the Cabinet Office issued updated guidance about public procurement last week in line with our manifesto. The reality is that there were few businesses of the scale that could manage a complex pension scheme such as the Civil Service Pension Scheme. It remains clear government policy to advance insourcing, and this pension scheme is a prime candidate for future insourcing once immediate operational stability is secured. The contract remains under intensive taskforce oversight, but if performance fails to improve, absolutely all further commercial, legal and operational options remain on the table—for this or any other contract.
National Security (State Threats) Bill
(1 day, 4 hours ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
18:31 - Division on Amendment 20 - Ayes: 150 / Noes: 216 - Amendment 20 disagreed.
Member's explanatory statement
This probing amendment seeks to clarify whether all aspects of espionage are covered by the reference to “foreign power threat activity”, in the light of the recent conviction of two Chinese spies, one of whom worked for the Hong Kong Economic and Trade Office in London.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)
My Lords, this amendment is in my name and those of the noble Baronesses, Lady Ludford and Lady Foster, and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, who has other relevant amendments in this group. Amendment 1 is a probing amendment that enables the Minister to clarify the exact breadth of the intention in the Bill—a Bill that I welcome, and I regret I was not able to be here at Second Reading to say so. The Bill is designed to address the threat posed by foreign state-linked organisations that operate here in the UK.
My amendment relates in particular to the Hong Kong Economic and Trade Office, whose office manager, Bill Yuen, was recently convicted and sentenced to eight years in prison under the National Security Act 2023 for helping to run a CCP surveillance operation from its premises. The existence of this office dates back to the Hong Kong Economic and Trade Office Act 1996, passed on the premise that Hong Kong was meaningfully autonomous from Beijing. “One country, two systems” was meant to mean that separate legal, economic and administrative systems would be permitted in Hong Kong, albeit as part of China. Any such pre-1997 autonomy or even post-1997 freedoms are clearly no longer the case, yet somehow the office survives, supposedly independent of the Chinese embassy but with at least one of its staff acting on behalf of the Chinese Communist Party.
This has involved surveillance of some of our own citizens and of Hong Kong dissidents resident in the UK. Indeed, Regina Ip, former convenor of Hong Kong’s Executive Council, even claimed that it was legal for the Hong Kong Economic and Trade Office to gather intelligence on activists. Both sorts of surveillance are surely intolerable.
Perhaps it is possible to describe activity against UK citizens as activity involving a threat by a foreign state and therefore a threat to the safety or interests of the UK as defined in the Bill, but what about similar actions affecting Hong Kong citizens? Would they be covered if some foreign policy threat activity included espionage, given that surveillance of UK residents would be reported back to China? I assume it would count as espionage, especially as the Hong Kong Economic and Trade Office funded Bill Yuen’s legal costs and its salaried staff attended most of the trial at the Old Bailey to show support for him, even while the office enjoyed the privilege confirmed by Parliament in the hopeful days of 1996.
The Bill is to deal with the threat posed by foreign state-linked organisations operating in the UK. The Hong Kong Economic and Trade Office is a foreign state-linked organisation and is operating here in London. We should protect our citizens from its activities but also protect UK residents who are classified as dissident activists by the Chinese state, some of whom have bounties on their heads. I hope, in response, my noble friend the Minister can provide some assurance that this body and its nefarious activities would be in scope of the Bill’s intent. I beg to move.
Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter. This builds on the Private Notice Question which she placed before your Lordships’ House and indeed on our Second Reading debate last week where the Hong Kong Economic and Trade Office, which, as the noble Baroness has rightly said, is a relic of the past, became the centre of our interest because of some of those who worked there being convicted of being involved in espionage on behalf of the Chinese Communist Party regime in Beijing. That is why it is entirely relevant to this Bill and why it is good that the noble Baroness has placed Amendment 1, this probing amendment, before your Lordships’ Committee.
I have a few points I would like to make on that amendment before turning to my own Amendments 3 and 4, which deal with slightly different questions but are also linked to the malign activities of the Chinese Communist Party regime in the UK. Amendment 3 deals with transnational repression, and Amendment 4 deals with the activities of the United Front, which is not a state but works in line with the wishes and ideology of the Chinese Communist Party. That is why it is problematic in terms of the definitions in the Bill and why I have sought further clarification through my amendments.
I have a few pointers on the Hong Kong Economic and Trade Office case, which might be helpful to your Lordships. In May 2024, law enforcement initially arrested 11 individuals across the UK. Only three of those were heavily linked to state funding via the London Hong Kong office referred to by the noble Baroness. Only three were prosecuted under the National Security Act 2023. Two have since been convicted and—as the noble Lord, Lord Hanson of Flint, was quite right to remind us during Second Reading last week—were subjected to very lengthy prison sentences. The remaining eight individuals suspected of acting as part of the vigilante team in contact with entities in Hong Kong and targeting an individual on British soil were released without charge.
This case highlights a common practice whereby Chinese and Hong Kong authorities blend private civil disputes, corporate debt collection and local organised crime groups—a point that I heard more about recently at a meeting organised by Tom Tugendhat MP, our former Security Minister, which pointed to the activities of organised crime linked to some of these groups promoting a political ideology. All of those are involved in the execution of transnational repression and jurisdiction overseas while evading national security prosecution.
I have four questions I would like to put the Minister on Amendment 1 before turning to those other two amendments. I am sorry they have been grouped together, but I think it is for the convenience of the House. I hope the House will therefore forgive me if I spend a bit of time speaking to the other two amendments, but here are my questions to build on what the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, has said already.
First, of the 11 individuals initially arrested by counterterrorism police in connection with the hostile tracking of a Hong Kong resident in Yorkshire, eight were subsequently released without trial. Can the Minister inform the House how many of those eight have since left the United Kingdom and whether any have returned to the jurisdiction of the People’s Republic of China or the Hong Kong special administrative region, thereby placing themselves beyond the reach of British justice?
Secondly, is the Minister confident that counterterrorism and the Crown Prosecution Service—the CPS—possess the immediate capacity to process massive backlogs of foreign language evidence quickly enough to meet custody time limits? That has been an issue relevant to these prosecutions. Specifically, was a lack of rapid security-vetted translation capacity a contributing factor in the decision to release the other eight suspects without pressing charges?
Thirdly, is the Minister satisfied that our law enforcement agencies, including the NCA—the National Crime Agency—and regional special branches have the required resources to effectively monitor and map the nexus between Chinese state authorities, overseas proxy organisations and private contractors operating inside the United Kingdom?
Fourthly, what steps are the Government taking to bolster the China capabilities of UK law enforcement? Specifically, are we investing in the recruitment and training of security-vetted interpreters, fluent not just in Mandarin and Cantonese but in crucial dialects such as Hokkien and Fuzhou dialects, to effectively monitor and respond to issues related to transnational state repression and organised crime? This was referred to during the meeting that Tom Tugendhat MP organised in the House Commons recently and which, as I say, I was able to attend.
Let me turn to Amendment 3. I do not want to go on too much about this amendment, because I was able to have a very helpful and constructive meeting with the noble Lord, Lord Hanson of Flint, yesterday. I say at the outset that I will not press your Lordships to divide on this amendment, in the light of the very helpful assurances which he gave me yesterday. But I will just recap. On 26 February, I initiated a debate on behalf of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which I have the privilege to chair, about our report on transnational repression. It was a thorough debate and the Minister replied in his courteous manner. However, his reply did not meet all of the questions which we raised in that debate, or indeed in the report. I returned to it on 21 May, during the King’s Speech debate, and subsequently in a balloted debate that I won, which was secured for 4 June and which dealt with atrocity crimes. This is also an amendment which Alicia Kearns, Member of Parliament, raised in the House of Commons during its six-hour consideration of the Bill.
Without dwelling too much on procedural issues, I think all of us who have been around this place and have had the privilege to serve in both Houses know that to give the House of Commons only six hours of debate on a major Bill of this importance, and then to come to your Lordships and do all the remaining stages in one day flat, as we are doing today—Committee, Report and Third Reading—is clearly absurd, given that this is based on Jonathan Hall’s excellent report of 11 months ago, as is the idea that we have not had time during that period to debate some of these questions. Furthermore, it cannot be right that the Home Affairs Select Committee was unable to take evidence on the Bill, even though it requested it, or that my own committee, which wanted to scrutinise the Bill, was left to just write a letter to the Minister. The Minister has responded to that in his usual courteous way, and I am grateful, but how much better it would have been to have pre-legislative scrutiny and proper consideration of the Bill in the normal way. There are some questions that the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, has asked and I am asking, and I know that colleagues from the Conservative Opposition Benches, the Liberal Democrat Benches and elsewhere on the Cross Benches have legitimate questions to ask about the Bill.
Lord Garnier (Con)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, for what they said. They both spoke in very measured terms and I wish to support broadly everything that they have said, for two reasons: first, because I agree with them, and, secondly, because I was too late to co-sign their amendments. The only point of difference I have with the noble Lord, Lord Alton, is some thoughts about SLAPPs legislation—I confess that, yes, I am a member of the defamation Bar and I have various views about the questions that lie behind the excitement around the need to introduce SLAPPs legislation, but that is not for today. I broadly agree with the noble Lord and the noble Baroness and give them the encouragement that, simply because a Conservative Member of this House has not signed their amendments, that does not mean that a Conservative does not agree with them.
There is a danger that we can become naive, thinking that because there are, say, 2 billion buyers of toothbrushes in the People’s Republic of China it would be wrong of us to criticise the Chinese Government when they do things, either through their own agencies or through their proxy agencies, to damage the well-being of this country. As the noble Lord, Lord Alton, calmly pointed out, not everything is always as it seems. Therefore, although neither the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, nor the noble Lord, Lord Alton, has threatened a vote on their amendments, I urge my noble friend the Minister—and he is my friend—to bear carefully in mind that when we are dealing with China we are dealing with an underwater crocodile. We can be naive and keep feeding it, and allow it to build bigger and bigger embassies and to spy, either formally or informally, upon the activities of our citizens, and indeed of the expatriate citizens of Hong Kong in this country, and we can allow it to carry on behaving appallingly towards United Kingdom citizens, such as Jimmy Lai, who “live” in Hong Kong, but, if we let another week or month or year pass in which we live in this fog of confusion, we are, I suspect, misleading ourselves and not doing our own citizens or the citizens of other countries any good.
China is not anything other than something that we need to be very careful about. Yes, we can sell 2 billion toothbrushes and we can sell glass, IT or whatever it may be, but I urge the Government to please not allow themselves to think that, when you feed a crocodile, it will wag its tail and say, “Thanks very much”. It will not. It will say, “Thanks for your leg—I’ll have the other leg, and then I’ll have your arm, your other arm and your head”. Meanwhile, people such as Jimmy Lai, who stand up for freedom of expression, are left incarcerated in terrible conditions in Hong Kong.
Let us wake up and realise that we are dealing with adversaries, not with people who wish to do us a favour. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, who has yet to speak, for their amendments, because they are seriously worth considering.
Baroness Doocey (LD)
My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 5, in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, and the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool. This amendment seeks to ensure that our national security framework is not only addressing the threats of today but is prepared for what the director-general of MI5 has described as “the next frontier”—the potential risks posed by non-human autonomous AI systems. While our current debate focuses largely on human adversaries and their proxies who seek to undermine our national security, we must now also grapple with the emergence of systems capable of evading human oversight and control.
We are drawing a distinction between the AI tools we use today and what experts term artificial superintelligence, or ASI. The amendment defines ASI as a system
“capable of adapting its behaviour, in response to … its … environment, in ways not fully specified in advance by its developers”.
As Lord Browne of Ladyton, a former Secretary of State and expert on non-proliferation, has explained previously, the key distinction is that ASI would be an agent rather than an instrument. While a nuclear weapon cannot improve or replicate itself, or resist being shut down, a superintelligent AI system could, in principle, do all three. We are therefore contemplating a technology that could out-think experts and potentially subvert even our most capable national security apparatus.
This is not science fiction. We have recently seen a leading AI company restrict its latest, most capable model to a small group of major technology infrastructure firms, precisely so that they could use it to identify and close security loopholes that it was able to uncover in the core software and system. Officials are now warning that, in the wrong hands, the same kind of system could dramatically speed up cyber attacks against individual companies and, potentially, the critical infrastructure on which the country depends. That is where we are already today. The next level may be artificial superintelligence, where these systems become much more powerful and the risks in the hands of hostile states or state-sponsored actors are correspondingly greater.
The implications of that decision go further still. The United States Government have now imposed export controls on Mythos, prohibiting its use outside American jurisdiction. That is a remarkable step. A foreign Government have, in effect, decided that a single AI system is too powerful, too consequential and too potentially dangerous to allow unrestricted international deployment. That tells us that at least one major power has concluded that frontier AI capability is now a matter of national security, not only for the country that hosts it but for every country that might seek access to it. If the United States Government are drawing that line, it would be quite extraordinary if we in Parliament are not asking what our own response should be.
The AI Security Institute has warned that our current trajectory risks an irrevocable loss of control over systems that are becoming deeply embedded in our national infrastructure, economy and defence. Yet the AI Security Institute lacks the statutory authority to require disclosure, compel compliance or impose any binding obligations on the companies developing these systems. We have a body that can see the risks but cannot act upon them.
More importantly, the Government’s own AI Scenarios 2030 report, published earlier this month, acknowledges that highly capable AI could give rise to
“serious, potentially even existential harms”,
and, in the absence of effective intervention, highlights autonomous risks in which advanced systems may develop objectives that “resist human control”. My amendment would bring the development of such systems by a foreign power within the definition of “foreign power threat activity” under the National Security Act 2023. It is directed at systems capable of neutralising or subverting our relevant human authorities, which I have defined as our Armed Forces, intelligence services, police and the Government themselves.
Lord Beamish (Lab)
I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for the amendments in their names. It is timely to have a debate and to keep raising—as I know the noble Lord, Lord Alton, does regularly—the threat we face from China. The ISC in its China report outlined the very detailed structure which the Chinese state, which has the largest security services in the world, uses not just at home for repression but abroad for undermining other nations’ ability to act, and in persecuting individuals who oppose the Chinese communist regime.
The issue around the Hong Kong Economic and Trade Office is an obvious one which has raised concerns. The Bill is needed because whenever we have made the operating environment more difficult for states to use diplomatic cover, they have gone to other lengths. The success in identifying individuals who are using diplomatic cover for other activities shows that our security services are conscious of this. The response to the Salisbury attacks—in this country and across Europe among our allies, where a number of individuals were expelled from Russian embassies because of their links to intelligence services and activities which were not in keeping with their designation under the Vienna convention—certainly proved that point.
The problem I have with Amendment 4, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, is in defining strategy. That would be very difficult in terms of the united front. We all know what our adversaries get up to and what the aims are. The Bill is important because, as the operating environment has become more difficult, they are subcontracting this to individuals. So it is not necessarily about not understanding what the Chinese state is up to—we have a very clear understanding of this, and it is very complex and broad. The other thing the ISC report highlighted is that it is not just the scale but the lengths it goes to, both to intimidate individuals here and across the globe and to suck up information—which many of us might think is pretty irrelevant—for economic purposes and for building up a picture, a matrix, of what is happening in various political systems around the world.
It is good that these issues have been raised, because it throws a spotlight on what is happening not just in terms of China but what both Iran and Russia are doing. As I said at Second Reading, it is important to have that public debate to keep highlighting the dangers this country faces, and I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Alton, on his tenacity in continuing to do this. These dangers are on multiple fronts, whether it is universities being targeted, and individual diaspora members being targeted there, or IP thefts from both companies and universities. This is something that needs constant vigilance.
Baroness Ludford (LD)
My Lords, I was pleased to co-sign the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter. All the amendments in this group—Amendments 1, 3 and 4 in particular—are expressing frustration with the limited scope of the Bill. Perhaps the Minister might be able to give an idea as to whether the national security Bill that was heralded in the King’s Speech will be able to pick up some of these themes, if we are not successful in persuading the Government today to make amendments to this state threats Bill.
There is a feeling of concern that some threats that have been experienced, or that are pretty obvious, are not being sufficiently dealt with by the Government. This is particularly in relation to China, where we have been urged to wake up and not be naive about the underwater crocodile. Whether the Government are being naive or shaped by other considerations towards China, there is a feeling that there appears to be so much going on—demonstrated in the recent trial concerning the staff of the Hong Kong Economic and Trade Office, and otherwise instanced by the transnational repression towards residents of this country from Hong Kong who are being persecuted by the Chinese state, while they are supposedly under the protection of this country and this Government, which is intolerable—that we need to wake up and smell the coffee in relation to China.
I would like to hear some reassurances from the Minister that if he cannot take up some of these points in this Bill, the Government will take them up in the forthcoming national security Bill, which is intended to:
“Consolidate the Government’s approach to countering state threats to align more closely with the approach to countering terrorism”.
Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
I strongly agree with the points that the noble Baroness has just been making. She has referenced the plight of people living in the United Kingdom who now have bounties on their heads. Will she take the opportunity to highlight specifically the case of Chloe Cheung, who was 14 when she took part in pro-democracy demonstrations in Hong Kong and now has a 1 million Hong Kong dollar bounty on her head and is fearful of being dragged in—as some were, and attempts were made to drag others, to the Chinese consulate in Manchester in order to intimidate them? These are not illusions. There are many frightened Hong Kongers in the UK worried about the direct attacks that are being made upon them. I thank the noble Baroness for raising the general point.
Baroness Ludford (LD)
Not at all. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for all the work that he has done on this topic, both individually and as chair of the Joint Committee on Human Rights. I had the pleasure of meeting Chloe Cheung and some of her colleagues, and became even more aware of the threats they are under. It is intolerable that people to whom we have rightly given protection and residence are facing these kinds of huge, life-threatening threats from a foreign state. So far, we are not feeling reassured that this Bill is going to cover these threats.
There is a feeling among many of us that we want to hear robust pledges from the Government, even if, for whatever reason, they now want to get the Bill through incredibly quickly, having—to the bemusement of some of us—taken over a year to get to the point. They now want to rush it all through, but so be it. There is unfinished business in the Bill. If it is not dealt with today, it needs to be dealt with as soon as possible in the forthcoming national security Bill: the transnational repression, the proxy networks, the issues with the capacity of our police forces to cope with these threats, the foreign language capacity, the resources, and, as the noble Lord, Lord Alton, called it, the “China capability”. We risk being looked at as a laughing stock if our state and its law enforcement institutions are not able to cope with the threat being directed towards our state and the people living here. So I hope that, even if the Minister does not accept some of these amendments, he will tell us that no stone will be left unturned in the coverage of the national security Bill that we are expecting.
My noble friend Lady Doocey gave a very powerful justification of her own amendment on superintelligent AI. She certainly frightened me, in as far as I understood much of it. I am a bit behind the curve on AI, it has to be said, so she will have to give me a tutorial. But, to be serious, she rightly stressed all the threats and the Bill covers only a bit of this territory. We need to hear from the Government much stronger and more comprehensive responses to all the threats that are being sponsored by foreign countries towards us and the people who live here.
Baroness Foster of Aghadrumsee (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I do not want to delay the House for very long. I will just add my voice to Amendment 1, which I added my name to. The Government are very clearly warning about hostile state activity. Therefore, the probing amendment gives the Government and the Minister the opportunity to say that espionage is included in the state threat. The amendment seeks to add it and to give clarity to the clause. However, I hope that the Minister can be very clear that the foreign power threat activity includes espionage. If he is able to say that, it will be very helpful. It is very clear, after the recent case involving the Hong Kong Economic and Trade Office—which, as far as I am concerned, should no longer have any status here in London and should be disbanded, but that is for another day—that the British state was penetrated, dissidents have been targeted and, indeed, our colleagues in Parliament have been under surveillance. Therefore, I hope that the Minister will be able to say that in his closing remarks.
Lord Shinkwin (Con)
My Lords, I will speak to the amendments in group 1 in the name of various noble Lords, including, of course, the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool. I say “of course” in tribute to the noble Lord’s indefatigable illumination of the threat posed to this country by the odious Chinese Communist Party regime. I join with the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, and the noble Lord, Lord Beamish, in thanking him for his enduring efforts to ensure that we are alive to the CCP’s deliberate, cynical and relentless attempts to undermine our democracy and the West as a whole.
Baroness D'Souza (CB)
My Lords, I will remark briefly on the excellent intervention by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, and others, on the sleeping crocodile and toothbrushes. I ask the Minister to say, in summing up, why it is so very difficult for the UK Government to be extremely firm with China on the issues we are discussing today, which involve vast trampling on international norms and human rights. China itself has made it clear that if it wishes to continue trade with the UK, it will do so. China acts in its own best interests. No matter how firm we are on other issues, if it is in China’s interest to trade in toothbrushes or whatever, it will continue to do so. I do not understand why the Government are so reluctant to build and publish a strategy that is extremely and overtly firm regarding the kind of transgressions we are discussing throughout this Bill.
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)
My Lords, I regret that I was unable to take part on Second Reading owing to a long-standing family commitment, but I am very grateful on behalf of both the Liberal Democrats and many others for the Minister’s engagement with us before Second Reading and since. It has been extremely helpful, and his Bill team have been extremely helpful. The fact that most of the issues we face are now resolved owes a great deal to that commitment.
As was made clear at Second Reading, we support the aim of the Bill, in the light of the advice given to the Government by Jonathan Hall KC that further legislation is needed to enable appropriate action to respond to damaging activity by foreign state actors, as opposed to private bodies, that is prejudicial to the United Kingdom’s security and national interests.
We also understand the urgency of the Bill and the reason why it has been taken, effectively, as emergency legislation. However, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Alton, that the degree of hurry and the haste overall have, sadly, reduced the amount of scrutiny we have been able to give it. The speed does not obviate the need for Parliament, and this House in particular, to give the Bill as much scrutiny as it can in the limited time available. But we do so in the light of the Government’s commitment, given in the King’s Speech, and to which my noble friend Lady Ludford referred, to introduce legislation to tackle the growing threat from foreign state entities and their proxies and to improve the country’s defences against cyber security threats. The Minister has mentioned those again in recent days, and we therefore accept that this Bill is not the end of the story in relation to those commitments, and that its structure requires further development to respond adequately to these ongoing, complex and ever-changing threats.
In this group I will add only briefly to my noble friend Lady Doocey’s careful and comprehensive explanation in her speech on Amendment 5—to which the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and I have added our names—of the dangers of artificial intelligence and superintelligence. Such developments would enable artificial intelligence and superintelligence systems to exacerbate foreign power and foreign state threats. Were Amendment 5 to be passed, they would be specifically subject to the National Security Act. The amendment addresses the particular threat of hostile or potentially hostile foreign state actors and their proxies developing and exploiting these new systems, which are capable, as my noble friend Lady Doocey said, of wreaking untold damage to our national infrastructure and our economic and military interests.
The extent and forms of such damage, the scope of the threats proposed and the potential shape of future attacks are unforeseen and unforeseeable today—and therein lies a great part of their danger. The dangers outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Beamish, to our academic life and our universities are all exacerbated by the growth of AI and ASI alongside them. The noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, in a lighter moment, said that the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, had frightened her; well, she has frightened us all, and rightly.
Until this morning, we found the Government’s response to this amendment slightly inadequate. However, following our meeting yesterday with the Minister, the Government have given a strong indication that they recognise the development by foreign powers of highly advanced AI systems that pose risks to our cyber security and our national security. The Government will therefore seek and take into account the views of the Independent Reviewer of State Threats Legislation as to whether amendments to our legislation are necessary to redefine power threat activity accordingly.
That undertaking goes a long way towards meeting our objective. However, I am keen to see—and I hope the Government will add to this—the involvement of others going wider than the independent reviewer. For all that he is widely respected, his term is in any case due to end shortly. But real expert input in this area is necessary, and the Government need to take advantage of it. I would be keen to know that the Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament is to be consulted on this issue, and it should have the remit to consult with wider experts on AI development as needed.
As to the need for further legislation on this issue, we need look no further than the statement issued by our Five Eyes allies, including the leaders of our National Cyber Security Centre, on 22 June—only last week. The statement was headed, “The AI shift in cyber risk: why leaders must act now”. It made the urgency clear:
“While AI will help us improve cyber defence over time, it also accelerates the speed, scale, and sophistication of cyber threats.
Frontier AI models are anticipated to exceed current industry expectations, fundamentally transforming both offensive and defensive cyber capabilities. The timeline is not years, it is months”.
This is a threat to take seriously, and we underestimate it at our peril.
Lord Cameron of Lochiel (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. We all agree that the Bill is needed. As we said at Second Reading, the Opposition support the principles behind the Bill and the creation of a designation regime to tackle state threats, most importantly the IRGC. We do, however, feel the need to again make criticisms of how we have reached this point.
When the Government introduced the Bill three weeks ago, the usual channels agreed to fast-track it in both Houses. Part of that agreement was that the Government would work with the Opposition in a constructive manner to ensure that the Bill is the best it can be. My honourable friend Alicia Kearns MP had meetings with officials in the Home Office, informing them of her concerns about gaps in the Bill. My noble friend Lord Davies of Gower sent to the Minister two letters confirming those concerns, the first on 10 June and the second on 17 June. We gave the Government as much advance notice as possible of the amendments we would table, to give them enough time to consider the proposals and reach a reasonable compromise.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)
I am grateful to noble Lords for their contributions and comments and for the broad support for the Bill from the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Lochiel, and the noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames.
I shall start on the issue that the noble Lord, Lord Cameron has raised. This Bill is a result of a Labour manifesto commitment. It is a result of a commission we gave to Jonathan Hall KC to examine these areas in October 2024. He produced a report for the Government which they have examined in detail, and they have given commitments in this House to bring forward legislation at the earliest opportunity. This is the earliest opportunity. In giving time for discussions with the Official Opposition, the Liberal Democrats, the Cross Benches and noble Lords such as the noble Lords, Lord Alton, Lord Anderson and others, I have tried to make sure that we get this Bill right. It has had a fast track, agreed with the Opposition. It was put through the House of Commons in one day. We agreed to have Second Reading in one day and now all remaining stages of the Bill today. I have tried to support the Opposition to achieve their objectives. I have to say to the noble Lord that I have been very clear, open and honest in private conversations about what I can do and what I cannot do. What I have said to him I can do I have tried to do. As we shall see in later amendments, the Government have tried to assist other noble Lords.
I have also been very clear about what I cannot do. What I cannot do are things that dilute or damage the basic principle of this Bill, which is to give my right honourable friend the Home Secretary the power to undertake some designatory actions, which have been called for by His Majesty’s loyal Opposition, the Liberal Democrats and others in this House and in other places, against a number of potential state threats. That is why we fast-tracked the Bill: so that this House and others can give powers for the Secretary of State to consider it.
The noble Lord and I get on well—we have friendly discussion; we have discussions inside and outside this House—but I reject wholly his allegations today that we have not engaged on this Bill. It is worth putting that on the record; we have to put these things on the record occasionally.
The noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, raised specific questions on a number of matters. If he will allow, they need reflection and are not material to the amendments before us today, although they are tangential and important. I cannot give him definitive answers today on the four questions that he raised, but I will write to him on them.
A number of noble Lords also raised the national security Bill that is coming up shortly. I refer all those noble Lords to the King’s Speech 2026. The King’s Speech document contains four pages of detail on the national security Bill and about what we intend to do; the gracious Speech has announced that. Again, I cannot give noble Lords a date for its introduction, nor can I go above what has been said in the gracious Speech, but noble Lords need to know clearly that there will be a security Bill and that the gracious Speech’s objectives will be met. I refer noble Lords to that.
I thank my noble friend Lady Hayter for her Amendment 1. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, and indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for speaking to that amendment. I hope I can reassure my noble friend that not only was the National Security Act 2023 landmark legislation but it modernised the Government’s approach to dealing with the state threat activities that she mentioned by repealing the Official Secrets Act 1911 and the offences therein and modernising those offences as a whole.
The espionage offence was at Section 1 of the 1911 Act and the espionage activity that it dealt with is now comprehensively dealt with in various offences found in Part 1 of the National Security Act 2023. These include the espionage offences referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Foster. A number of other offences are in that Act. They protect key locations and key aspects of the state against foreign activity. They include the offence of assisting a foreign intelligence service. That offence at Section 3 of the Act has already proved invaluable in countering espionage and has led to recent convictions for serious offences in relation to those who acted for the Hong Kong Economic and Trade Office, to which noble Lords have recently referred.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, described China in colourful terms which were echoed by the noble Baronesses, Lady Ludford and Lady D’Souza, the noble Lords, Lord Alton of Liverpool and Lord Shinkwin, and my noble friend Lord Beamish, from his experience on the Intelligence and Security Committee. They all raised the issue of China. I am clear on this. China poses a series of threats to the UK in national security terms, from cyber attacks, foreign interference, espionage, democratic institution interference and transnational repression, which are to be condemned. Protecting our security is non-negotiable, but we have to engage with China where there are clear UK global interests. Indeed, this engagement allows us to raise issues of concern—in which we occasionally have common interests.
I hope I can reassure my noble friend that the espionage activity that she has mentioned in Amendment 1 is covered completely. With those assurances, I hope that she can withdraw her amendment in due course.
Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
Just before the noble Lord, Lord Hanson, leaves that point—and he will know that I have raised this before—it was one of the points raised in the Joint Committee on Human Rights report, which identified China as the principal threat when it comes to transnational repression, more than any other state. We puzzled over why, therefore, Iran and Russia are in the enhanced tier of the foreign influence registration scheme, but China is not. I know that the Minister will say, “We continue to look at this”, but will he give us some idea of how long it will take before we get a real answer to that question?
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
I am afraid the noble Lord will have to accept the answer I give him every time he raises this issue, which is that we keep these matters under review. If the Home Secretary believes that the power should be exercised, she will exercise it alongside the Foreign Secretary and other Ministers. I cannot give him the answer to that question now, for the reasons he knows. I hope he understands that.
The noble Lord’s Amendment 3 proposes new types of conduct to be treated as foreign power activity. As I understand it, this would supplement but not supplant the existing meaning of Section 33 of the National Security Act 2023 when making designations. I am entirely sympathetic to the aim of the noble Lord, Lord Alton, of making the UK a harder target for transnational repression. He will know it is a matter the Government take seriously and that we continue to make concrete progress, including on the helpful recommendations from the noble Lord’s own committee, the JCHR, and the detailed inquiry. This includes the continued implementation of the National Security Act 2023, the recent successful prosecutions I referred to a moment ago, the introduction of police training, practical guidance, a national protective security agency and a range of other matters.
Where a person carries out such activity with the intention of materially assisting a foreign intelligence service, it would already fall within the scope of foreign power threat activity. I think that is right and that the link back to the definition that Parliament agreed in passing the National Security Act 2023 is entirely appropriate.
Given the evolving nature of the threat and absence of an internationally agreed definition of transnational repression, we believe the broad approach recommended by the Defending Democracy Taskforce, coupled with the powers in the National Security Act and wider criminal law, is better suited to protecting potential victims. As I have said to the noble Lord outside the Chamber, I am happy to write to him by what I will term close of play in this House, 23 July, with further details of how we will respond on those matters accordingly.
I thank the noble Lord for Amendment 4, which touches on a significant issue. Outside of the Chamber, contrary to the assertions of the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, I have tried to meet the objectives and to talk to the noble Lord in a constructive way. The foreign power condition is a core component of existing offences in Part 1 of the National Security Act 2023. I will explain how we will deal with the foreign power condition and its interpretation, which I hope will reassure the noble Lord.
In my view, the foreign power condition can be met. Let me be clear that it is not necessary for a person to be tasked or directed by a foreign power in order for their actions to constitute foreign power threat activity. Under the National Security Act 2023, where a person acts for the purposes of advancing or giving effect to the policy of a foreign power, the foreign power condition can already be satisfied. In intending to promote or fulfil the published policy of another state through their conduct, a person is likely to at least intend to benefit a foreign power. It is important to add that the meaning of foreign power under Section 32 of the National Security Act 2023 is not limited to foreign Governments and their constituent parts. It is broad enough to include a range of agencies, including the type of agency that the noble Lord has mentioned and the governing political party of a foreign Government.
I am happy to put beyond doubt that activities inspired by the policy of a foreign power, including the governing political party of a state, would fall within the current definition of foreign power threat activity in the National Security Act 2023. I draw the noble Lord’s attention to the fact that the National Security Act 2023 was drafted with the intention of capturing the full range of state threat activity. I have looked at the matter extremely carefully and consulted with legal advisers in the Home Office, as well as operational partners. If it helps put the matter beyond doubt for the noble Lord, including for the purpose of interpretation by the courts, I can assure the Committee that interference activity motivated by the policy of the governing party of a state is prosecutable under the National Security Act 2023.
Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
I thank the Minister for giving that assurance. As he said, it puts it beyond doubt. It would enable that to be referred to in a court of law, should such a prosecution occur. I regard that as very significant progress, and I am grateful to the Minister.
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
I am grateful for that welcome from the noble Lord, Lord Alton.
I will touch on Amendment 5, from the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, who—again contrary to what the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Lochiel, has said— I have tried to engage with a number of times this week, including, at short notice, in discussions across the board. I am trying my best to achieve those objectives.
Amendment 5 seeks to expand the scope of the preparatory conduct offence and the definition of foreign threat activity to incorporate the development of artificial superintelligence. The noble Baroness has a strong point. She is right to identify the risks posed by advanced AI models. As the picture is rapidly evolving, it is vital that the Government step up to this challenge, and we are already trying to do so. We have the AI Security Institute, the most advanced capability of any Government in the world for understanding AI. The National Cyber Security Centre, part of GCHQ, is providing world-leading defensive capabilities. The Cyber Security and Resilience Bill, which is currently progressing through Parliament, will strengthen protections, and we are shortly to produce a national cyber action plan setting out the steps that the Government want to take.
However, I recognise that the noble Baroness has made important points, and I will go as far as I can to reassure her on those issues. The Government recognise that the development by foreign powers of highly advanced artificial intelligence systems poses a risk to our cyber security and our national security. We will therefore—I hope this helps the noble Baroness—ask the Independent Reviewer of State Threats Legislation to expressly consider whether amendments to legislation are necessary to redefine “foreign power threat activity”. Accordingly, we will do that. In response to the points that the noble Baroness has made, it is up to the independent reviewer to consult who they think is necessary, but I anticipate—I hope this is helpful to the noble Baroness—that they may wish to consult with a range of experts, as she has suggested, relating to AI.
My noble friend Lord Beamish is in the Committee today and, while it is a matter for the ISC itself, I am happy that we involve the ISC in that as appropriate. The Government always welcome the views of relevant committees, and I encourage my noble friend Lord Beamish to look at any AI issues if he requires it. I hope that reassures the noble Baroness on the experts that we can bring in, alongside the Independent Reviewer of State Threats Legislation and the ISC examining these important areas. I hope that will help the noble Baroness.
Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)
I apologise for interrupting the Minister in full flow. Can he make the position absolutely clear? He said that, as far as the Government are concerned, on the advice that they have received, Amendment 3 is covered by Section 33 of the 2023 Act. He has put that plainly on the record. Is he also saying that, as far as the Government are concerned, Amendment 5 is covered by Section 18 of the 2023 Act but, if that is not the case and the independent reviewer makes cogent recommendations, the Government will come ready to this House to amend Section 18 of the 2023 Act as necessary? The one thing to remember in the context of the independent reviewer is that the independent reviewer can only tell the Government what he thinks. He cannot amend the law himself. That assurance would be very helpful.
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
I happily give the noble Lord the assurance that, as I have said, we are trying to ensure that we ask the Independent Reviewer of State Threats Legislation to expressly consider whether amendments to the legislation, as in the area noted by the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, are considered. That will be a formal request, involving the independent reviewer making a judgment about who he wishes to call, and that would undoubtedly include, as suggested by the noble Baroness, independent AI experts. My noble friend Lord Beamish, the chair of the ISC, is in the Chamber today and will have heard what has been said. He has had the discussion and the offer has been made to all parties that they at least submit some evidence as part of that process.
I go back to the genesis of the Bill. The Bill is around because there was a manifesto commitment. There was a request to the independent reviewer and he has come up with suggestions. We have introduced the Bill as part of those suggestions, and we have said in response to other areas that His Majesty’s Opposition have pressed us on that we will consider those matters, but we have to do so as part of other, wider Bills. I am saying to the Committee today that this is a defined Bill with a defined purpose. I am trying to ensure that, having listened to the Committee, and as we will discuss in later amendments—
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
I will finish this sentence, if I may. As we will discuss in later amendments, we have made some changes to help reflect some of the views that have been put to me. Ultimately, that is the position that I am trying to take.
Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)
May I repeat my second question? Will the Minister confirm that it is the Government’s view that Amendment 5 is covered already by Section 18 of the National Security Act 2023?
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
My view is that there are powers there. However, in response to the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, I am saying that we will ask the independent reviewer to examine whether we need to make any changes. That is the settlement I am trying to reach today. If there are other points I want to add to that, I will contact the noble Lord by letter or email afterwards. That is the settlement I am trying to put on the record for all parties today, to get this aspect of the Bill agreed and the amendments not pressed.
Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
The urgency of dealing with the question of AI was emphasised by the noble Lord, Lord Marks, and, of course, by the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, to whose excellent amendment I am a signatory. The Joint Committee on Human Rights is about to complete a further investigation into AI and human rights. I hope that, along with all the other referrals the Minister is going to make to the independent commissioner, he might ensure that the findings of that Joint Committee, which we anticipate will be published before the Summer Recess, will also be drawn to his attention.
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
The noble Lord knows that I always welcome the views of the committee, and I will look at them and reflect on them with colleagues. I can probably give a definitive yes to the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, on his point; I was hedging my bets, but I think I can give a definitive yes. I hope that helps him in his assessment. I always like to give the House exquisite legal advice on these matters, rather than finding myself having to examine my own comments at a later date. I hope again that, given all the points that have been made, my noble friend will withdraw her amendment and that other noble Lords will not push theirs.
The Committee will notice that I have not spoken to the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Walney, or indeed the clause stand part notice from the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, which were in this group, because they have not spoken to them. With that, I hope that my noble friend will respond accordingly.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)
I first thank the noble Lords, Lord Alton, Lord Beamish and Lord Shinkwin, for their support. I also thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Ludford and Lady Foster, and in particular the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, who managed to get Jimmy Lai’s name in, which we always appreciate. I thank my noble friend the Minister for his assurance that espionage is covered.
This is a live issue. The Chief Executive of Hong Kong, John Lee, has said that overseas activists with bounties on their heads will be “pursued for life”. Activists such as Christopher Mung, Ted Hui, Finn Lau and Nathan Law have all been targeted by the Hong Kong Economic and Trade Office, so what we are asking for is urgent. That is why I support this Bill going as fast as possible and being implemented as quick as possible. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
“(3A) The conduct specified in subsection (3) includes establishing, administering or maintaining a company, trust, partnership or similar arrangement which conceals, or is intended to conceal, the beneficial ownership of assets connected with a designated body.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment makes the concealment of beneficial ownership, and the establishment and maintenance of that concealment of finance and assets relating to a designated organisation, an offence.
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)
That moved a little faster than I had anticipated, so I now have to move my finger a little faster.
Amendment 9, in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Northover, reflects one that was moved in the House of Commons by my honourable friend Steff Aquarone, the Member for North Norfolk. The amendment would include in the offence of assisting a designated body the conduct of establishing or administering a company, trust or partnership, or another body, with the aim of disguising
“the beneficial ownership of assets”
controlled by such a body. The amendment is designed to advance transparency and to penalise the exercise of disguising the real ownership of the assets of bodies designated under this legislation, so that what is sometimes called corporate disguise cannot be used to assist unlawful foreign power threat activity by a designated body, and it would do so by making it an offence under new Section 17B.
As my honourable friend Mr Aquarone put it succinctly in the House of Commons:
“These groups rely on hiding their money, and opaque financial systems only help them to do that”.—[Official Report, Commons, 17/6/26; col. 931.]
By extending liability to those who make that opacity possible, we limit the ability of designated groups to continue to benefit from their assets and finances. The Government’s position appears to be, or appeared in the House of Commons to be, that existing mechanisms of financial control are sufficient protection of our national security from the use of disguised assets by designated bodies. The response of the Minister in the other place, Angela Eagle MP, was:
“Obtaining material benefits from a foreign intelligence service is an existing offence under section 17 of the National Security Act”,”.—[Official Report, Commons, 17/6/26; col. 934.]
so there was no need in this Bill to criminalise conduct that disguised the assets of designated bodies. I am afraid I disagree with that assessment.
Helping in such a disguise is not the same thing as deriving a material benefit from a foreign intelligence service, the offence with which Ms Eagle was concerned. Mr Aquarone gave a number of examples of egregious conduct by individuals who are the real owners of disguised assets being used to fund foreign state threats from bodies that are likely to be designated when the Bill becomes law. Among other examples, he cited the work by the Times, Bloomberg and Transparency International in exposing the use in the United Kingdom and elsewhere, by an Iranian-Cypriot banker already sanctioned by the UK Government, of disguised assets that may be used to fund the activities of the IRGC, which may become a designated body.
The Minister has responded to a number of questions in respect of which his department has set out ways existing financial controls will prevent, restrict or otherwise impact on conduct designed to hide the assets of designated bodies. The Government have stated that collaboration with Crown dependencies and overseas territories is sufficient to prevent the disguise of assets assisting designated bodies in those jurisdictions; and, further, that our requirements for the register of entities, and for company reporting with Companies House, are sufficiently robust to prevent the disguise of designated bodies’ assets being a threat. I am afraid I doubt that.
Baroness Northover (LD)
My Lords, I speak briefly in support of my noble friend Lord Marks. He has put the case extremely effectively, taking from the amendment tabled by my honourable friend in the other place. Generally speaking, this is an area where there has been much cross-party working by the right honourable Andrew Mitchell, the noble Baroness, Lady Hodge, my noble friend Lady Kramer, and others. I therefore hope that noble Lords will be helpful in responding to this. The Panama papers, and many other sources, have revealed much information that would already have been in the public domain had beneficial ownership been clearer. Therefore, I hope the Minister will join me in supporting this amendment.
Lord Cameron of Lochiel (Con)
My Lords, the amendments in this group concern offences relating to the support and assistance of designated bodies. The noble Lord, Lord Walney, has not spoken to his amendments. In this regard, it is worth commenting that these Benches have a lot of sympathy with the principle behind the noble Lord’s amendments—he spoke at Second Reading last week—namely, the fact that a designated body, as a media organ, should not be a potential avenue by which criminals avoid prosecution. It is an issue worthy of consideration. It would be interesting if the Minister could confirm whether the offences proposed by the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Walney, would already be captured by the Bill as drafted.
Amendment 9, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Marks, would make it an offence to conceal beneficial ownership relating to a designated organisation. Again, we on these Benches support the principle behind this amendment. The use, funnelling or concealment of funds to support a designated body should undoubtedly be an offence that is captured by the Bill, and I hope that the Minister can provide assurances that this will be the case. I look forward to his response.
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
I am grateful for the contributions from the noble Lords, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames and Lord Cameron of Lochiel. The noble Lord, Lord Walney, is not in his place, but his amendments have been referred to. I confirm to the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Lochiel, that the conduct captured in the amendments is already appropriately provided for by the existing provisions in the Bill. Had the noble Lord, Lord Walney, spoken to them, I would have gone into more detail, but that is the principle of the response to date.
I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, for his Amendment 9, which intends to specify the concealment of beneficial ownership, and the establishment and maintenance of that concealment of finance and assets related to a designated body, as material assistance. The Government take corruption in all its forms very seriously. We welcome the noble Lord’s focus on this important issue, and the support of the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, for the objectives that the noble Lord, Lord Marks, has outlined.
On the noble Lord’s concerns about beneficial ownership, the Government have a strong record on reducing illicit finance, including working with overseas territories and Crown dependencies to do so. The register of overseas entities requires overseas entities that own UK property to register verified information on their beneficial owners with Companies House and to update that information. The Government also produce an annual progress report to Parliament on Companies House reforms, including updates to the register of overseas entities.
The “Assisting a designated body” offence is not limited to financial benefits; providing access to services is already explicitly covered by subsection (3) of the new Section 17B offence. Establishing or running an arrangement to look after a designated body’s assets is a service. Those who do so professionally are often called trust or company service providers. This reflects that there are no specific financial measures in the Bill but they can be applied in all environments. Therefore, the activity that the amendment seeks to address is already within the scope of the new offence.
The amendment is unnecessary in a positive way, in that the Bill is already covering this area, and although the noble Lord has drawn specific attention to this matter, I can explicitly confirm the extent of the provisions of the Bill, and we anticipate that a key utility for this power will be to call out and bear down on the very front companies the noble Lord has referred to which are carrying out foreign power threat activities as proxies for hostile powers. If the noble Lord looks at the Explanatory Notes to the Bill, he will see that that is very clear. I know he will have looked at those in detail, but I reaffirm for other Members of the Committee that the Explanatory Notes are very clear on that point.
If I may, I will follow up in writing to the noble Lord to give some further detail to him and his colleagues regarding the work that the Government are doing to prevent the misuse of beneficial ownership structures and financing of designated bodies more broadly. When I do that, I will place a copy of the letter in the Libraries of both Houses to ensure that all Members have access to my correspondence in due course. It is a matter for the noble Lord, but I think that we have covered these matters. It was very important that he raised them, but I respectfully ask him not to push his amendment; given that his is the last amendment standing in this group, I hope he will withdraw it and allow us to deal with matters by correspondence.
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)
I am very grateful for the assurances and explanations that the Minister has given. I will not press the amendment to a vote now, but I invite him to consider, between now and the introduction of further legislation, whether there is a complete overlap, so that anybody who helps the disguise of assets, perhaps without knowing that the designated body is the beneficiary of that assistance, will be covered by the offence as it stands, because it seems to me that there is a possible lacuna where new legislation would be helpful. If he would add to his assurance by saying that he will at least consider whether there is such a gap, I would be happier in withdrawing my amendment, which I will seek leave to do in any event. I give him an opportunity to respond to that very specific point.
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
I give the noble Lord the assurance that we will certainly look at those matters, and I will include that in the correspondence that I send him post the consideration of the Bill.
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)
I am very grateful and, with that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Northover
“(5A) Subsections (1) and (2) do not apply to conduct engaged in on behalf of an impartial humanitarian organisation that is necessary to ensure the delivery of humanitarian assistance or to support other activities that support basic human needs.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would create an exemption from the offence in section 17B of assisting a designated body if the assistance is provided on behalf of an impartial humanitarian organisation.
Baroness Northover (LD)
My Lords, in moving Amendment 11, I will speak also to Amendment 12A, which replaces my original Amendment 12; Amendment 13A, which replaces my original Amendment 13; Amendment 18A, which replaces Amendment 18; Amendment 19A, which replaces Amendment 19; and Amendment 16.
I want to start by acknowledging the huge amount of support and effort that others have put into getting us to where we are now: the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, with his expertise and understanding, Sarah Champion and those associated with the International Development Committee, the International Committee of the Red Cross, other leading NGOs and others, and, from Friday onwards, the Minister and his team. I think that the poor Minister is probably due a full night’s sleep after all this.
I sympathise with the Government and those who drafted this legislation. I understand why they want to act, but we all know, as the noble Lord, Lord Alton, pointed out, that acting in haste in drafting legislation can have predictable challenges. For me, therefore, the key is to address the unintended consequences of this short Bill, rather than to seek to move particular areas forward. That will need to wait for the longer Bill that we have been promised in the King’s Speech. It could never be acceptable to say that this legislation must go through unamended, when risks were perceived with it, because we were short of time.
I also note the engagement of Jonathan Hall KC, who published a note on receipt of information on 25 June, suggesting a change to the legislation. It is quite something when such a suggestion is made, given that, in theory, this legislation came directly out of his report. I thank him for being willing to address this, and the Government for listening.
Let us set aside whether or not there should have been such a rush, and make sure that by the end of today we have taken forward a Bill in which there is common agreement about intentions and the protection of the British public and state without, at the same time, throwing out babies with bathwater. In fact, I am mightily keen not to throw out babies, but instead to look after them around the world, which is what humanitarian organisations so bravely do, often in the most challenging circumstances.
I am very grateful to those who signed my amendments—the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Helic and Lady D’Souza—for their support. We had a clear problem as the legislation stood. No one, including the Government, wishes to prevent bona fide humanitarian organisations, working within international humanitarian law, doing their work, whether that is clearing mines, working on conflict resolution or getting aid to vulnerable people, or to block journalists from digging deep to do their work. The dilemma of engaging with those with whom we might otherwise wish to designate or proscribe is clear to the Government, hence the defence for diplomatic engagement.
The Explanatory Notes state that humanitarian work is not designed to be captured by this Bill. While diplomatic protection is in the Bill, humanitarian work, so far, is not. The factsheet on the Bill, published by the Home Office on 9 June, states:
“Legitimate activity, such as diplomatic and humanitarian engagement and journalistic freedoms are protected in the offences which include relevant defences”.
But actually, no: the intention was clearly there, but it was not translated into the Bill. We need to make sure this is rectified.
Amendment 11 provides an exemption, stating that the new provisions
“do not apply to conduct engaged in on behalf of an impartial humanitarian organisation that is necessary to ensure the delivery of humanitarian assistance or to support other activities that support basic human needs”.
That is the best route to go down, so that this legislation does not have a chilling effect on those in the humanitarian sector, so they fear to act lest they end up in the courts, or their banks or donors do not want to engage for fear of the law. In Yemen, for example, aid agencies have abandoned entire communities because they are working with groups that were blacklisted by the US Government. This then made it too risky to stay.
Amendments 12A and 13A seek to provide a defence for those carrying out humanitarian activities, making it clear that these must be in keeping with internationally recognised principles and standards applicable to such activities. Amendment 16 would mean that an offence in Section 17C on obtaining material benefits would not apply if the benefit was provided to an impartial humanitarian organisation. It provides an exemption.
Lord Anderson of Ipswich (CB)
My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, and I am delighted to add my support to Amendments 12A, 13A, 18A and 19A in her name. The unintended application of the new Sections 17B and 17C to those who carry out humanitarian activities was a danger to which we both spoke at Second Reading, and these amendments go a very long way to laying those concerns to rest.
My own Amendment 17, signed also by the noble Lord, Lord Verdirame, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester, who is not in his place, has similarly been superseded by Amendment 17A, which I tabled yesterday after discussion with the Minister. It appears in the supplementary list and is accompanied by the minor and consequential manuscript Amendment 18B.
Amendment 17A was floated in the Second Reading speech of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, last Tuesday, tweaked in the note produced by Jonathan Hall KC on Thursday and tabled by me later that day. Three Independent Reviewers of Terrorism Legislation might not be quite as entertaining as the Three Tenors, but we have, I hope, as so often, sung more or less in harmony.
The problem that Amendment 17A seeks to address is the breadth of Section 17C, which prohibits obtaining material benefits from a designated body. Section 17C(3) defines material benefits as including not only
“anything which has the potential to result in a financial benefit”,
but additionally, and separately, the unqualified word “information”. The Minister sought to assist by suggesting at Second Reading that the transfer of information was caught by the prohibition only when it possesses
“an inherent value that enriches the recipient”.—[Official Report, 23/6/26; col. 614.]
Although I am as keen on gift horses as the next person, and while I appreciate the helpful spirit in which the Minister’s interpretation was put forward, I must confess that it is not one in which I would feel complete confidence as an advocate.
The starting point of Section 17C is that any receipt of information from or on behalf of a designated body is a criminal offence. Diplomats and other public servants have a defence. There is another defence of reasonable excuse in Section 17C(7), but this operates as a defence only to the charge of retaining the material benefit, not to a charge of obtaining it, accepting it or agreeing to accept it. That is the hole this amendment fills where information is concerned. It protects those who are not diplomats but who none the less have a legitimate interest in soliciting or obtaining information from a designated body.
Those engaged in humanitarian activity will now be protected by Amendment 18A. I mentioned at Second Reading the HALO Trust, which could otherwise have been at risk for asking a designated body where the mines were laid. But Amendment 17A remains vital for those who are neither diplomats nor engaged in humanitarian activity. I spoke at Second Reading of a small number of reputable organisations which enter into dialogue with bodies susceptible to designation for the purposes of conflict prevention and resolution. One of those bodies is the charity Inter Mediate, founded by Jonathan Powell, in which I declare a non-pecuniary interest as chair. Such bodies might be described as humanitarian, in which case they are protected by Amendment 18A. But, in case of any doubt, their ability to engage in such dialogues is safeguarded by Amendment 17A.
There are also foreign correspondents, a number of whom I have engaged with in recent days. In order to inform the public as effectively as possible, some of them routinely speak to sources in and around bodies liable to designation. They do not make it their practice to alert government or anyone else to the fact that they are doing so. While they understand that the Attorney-General has a discretion over whether to bring prosecutions, they point, I am afraid, to the abusive exercise of equivalent discretions elsewhere in the common-law world and ask, in the words of the title of Peter Hennessy’s latest book, “Could it happen here?” Prosecutorial discretion is of course a vital safeguard, but it is no substitute for a clear law that neither penalises reasonable behaviour, nor chills those who are associated with it.
These amendments do not weaken this vital Bill, but they avoid its unintended consequences. They give effect to the Government’s unrealised intention, expressed in the factsheet that accompanied the Bill, to include within it defences for humanitarian engagement and journalistic freedoms. I thank the Minister and the Bill team for their courteous and helpful engagement.
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
I realise that it is unusual to speak this early in the debate, but I just hope the House will bear with me for a second. I believe it is important to give a view on the two sets of amendments that have been moved, so that colleagues will understand where the Government are coming from in any contributions they wish to make.
I recognise the concern raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, and also by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich, about inadvertently criminalising the provision of legitimate humanitarian aid, and the resulting chilling effect this could have on important work. We have listened to the concerns and we have had extensive discussion outside the Committee. The Government will accept a new defence into Sections 17B and 17C, which is manifested by Amendments 12A, 13A, 18A and 19A, where conduct is carried out for the purpose of carrying out humanitarian activities, which are defined as only those activities carried out in accordance with internationally recognised principles and standards.
I am also grateful again for Amendment 17A from the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich, which is based on the advice of Jonathan Hall KC, to expand the defence of “reasonable excuse” to cover obtaining, accepting or agreeing to accept information from a designated body. This pragmatic proposal will mean that, where a legitimate humanitarian organisation, such as those mentioned by the noble Lord, or a charity involved in conflict resolution, or indeed a journalist, takes information from a designated body, which could be about the location of landmines, for example, that organisation will not fall foul of the new offence at Section 17C. The amendment that the Government are willing to accept in the form of new Section 17C(7A) is intended to reflect that.
Again, I am happy if any other noble Lords wish to contribute to the debate and make any further points, if the House will allow me at the end of the debate to respond to those points. I thought it important to put on record now that there should be no difference between us. Therefore, the debate, I would hope, is about the importance of this subject, rather than the Government being forced into agreeing any particular amendment or not. With that, I will sit down and allow other noble Lords to contribute, but I hope the Government’s position is now clear.
Lord Verdirame (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I am grateful for that clarification. It makes things much easier and will shorten the debate. The point that I was going to make, in respect of the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich, is that designated bodies are different from terrorist organisations, because they may be exercising public functions in certain countries. For that reason, there are a number of British nationals who will have to engage with the designated bodies for perfectly legitimate reasons. Most of the examples that we have dealt with concern precisely that scenario: that is, cases of British nationals providing humanitarian assistance, journalists or those involved in conflict resolution.
But we should not lose sight of the possibility that even businesses could find themselves caught by these offences but for the reasonable excuse defence, which has now been accepted. There may, for example, be British businesses operating in Iran for perfectly legitimate reasons that will have to sell an investment and will have to obtain information from a designated body as part of that process. There may be British-Iranian dual nationals who have to, in the same way, accept or obtain information because they have to renew a passport or such other things. The reasonable defence excuse, which has now been cast in sufficiently wide terms, captures those situations. I am a little bit unclear about Section 17B, but the Section 17B offence concerns me a bit less because it already contains an important provision, UK-related activities, so does not come with as much of a risk of inappropriate application as Section 17C. With that, I welcome the Government’s concession on both of these aspects.
Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 22 in the group in my name and the name of my noble friend Lady D’Souza. It touches on the issues that my noble friend Lord Anderson of Ipswich raised in his remarks. I am very pleased with the progress that we have made around humanitarian organisations.
During the Second Reading debate last week, I specifically referred to the position of the International Committee of the Red Cross and said that it would passing strange if the united desire of this House to designate organisations such as the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps could be used to impede the work of the International Committee of the Red Cross. I specifically referred to an amendment to the Bill which it asked should be moved. I tabled it in due course and it is on the Order Paper.
During our very helpful meeting yesterday, the noble Lord, Lord Hanson of Flint, responded to another point that I raised with him and that I had also raised in correspondence with my noble friend Lord Anderson over the weekend concerning the position of journalists. I was struck by representations made by the admirable Alex Crawford from Sky News, who had given evidence to the Joint Committee on Human Rights during our inquiry into the activities of ISIS. The noble Lord will recall that I have raised with him the failure to prosecute any of the 400 ISIS members who committed genocide against Yazidis in northern Iraq and northern Syria and who have returned to this country. Not one of them has been prosecuted for crimes against humanity or the crime of genocide.
Alex Crawford went into the camps inside Syria and Iraq and very bravely interviewed some of the insurgents who were there, and she came to give evidence to our committee. She asked, “Would that mean, under the terms of this legislation, that I could be prosecuted for working to establish information and knowledge by going in directly to deal with a proscribed organisation?” I would like further clarity, just for the record and to put it beyond doubt, for people such as Alex Crawford, Lyse Doucet or many others. Last week, I referred to Kate Adie, who stood in Tiananmen Square at the time of the massacres that occurred there. Would someone like that also be placing themselves at risk under the legislation? Let us put that beyond doubt. I know that it is not the intention of the noble Lord, Lord Hanson. During our discussions yesterday, I felt that we made very significant progress in dealing with that.
I will just briefly refer to the position of the IRGC. This is not just about NGOs. The IRGC, as we all know, has to do some very delicate, sensitive and confidential work, sometimes engaging directly in places where there are organisations that we have proscribed or that we will, in the future, designate. Much of this can be funded by the United Kingdom, pursuant to the Geneva conventions, and this can include the provision of medical care of the wounded and sick. So, the idea that this could proscribe such groups solely to secure humanitarian access to civilian populations and detain persons—
Baroness Northover (LD)
My Lords, I think the noble Lord means the International Committee of the Red Cross.
Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
I do indeed—there are too many acronyms flying around at the moment, and it is rather late in the day. I am very grateful to the noble Baroness.
Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)
My Lords, as a Welsh-born bathroom singer of much practice, I was pleased with my noble friend Lord Anderson when he referred to three tenors. However, your Lordships will have observed that, with the noble Lord, Lord Verdirame, and his operatic roots, it is now four tenors—and an “alto” as well.
Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)
It took your Lordships quite a long time to get that one.
But seriously, I commend and congratulate my noble friend Lord Anderson and the Minister for the hard work they have done together in the last couple of days. I was attending a wonderful family wedding in Hereford Cathedral yesterday and was being informed, between bits of the service, of what was happening in the discussions. I am very happy with the result. What has been agreed gives sufficient protection for the concerns that have been expressed.
I mentioned at Second Reading my belief that the discretion vested in the DPP and the Attorney-General is a real protection and would be a real protection for those who might be faced with even a suspicion of prosecution in such a case. I think that we have reached a good way to deal with the matters raised by my noble friend Lord Anderson at Second Reading.
Lord Davies of Gower (Con)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. It is vital to our national security that those who assist bodies designated under this Bill are appropriately and effectively punished. The Terrorism Act 2000 has no prohibited purpose condition analogous to that included in the Bill, which we on these Benches believe could be exploited by potential criminals.
As my noble friend Lord Cameron and I argued at Second Reading, the existence of a prohibited purpose requirement will add a large degree of subjectivity and present further evidential barriers for prosecutors in the majority of cases where offenders have no legitimate defence. This argument was also made by Conservative MPs in the other place. We were told, however, by the Government that they were unable to accept our amendment, that no amendments to this Bill would be accepted and that our only chance of engaging in meaningful dialogue was to wait until the next national security Bill, the date for which is unspecified.
It is in that context that I turn to the amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, and the noble Lord, Lord Anderson. Amendments 12A, 13A, 17A, 18A and 19A seek to create a defence for the offences of assisting a designated body or obtaining material benefit from a designated body. I understand the principle behind these amendments. However, we on these Benches worry that
“for the purpose of carrying out humanitarian activities”
is a potentially subjective criterion that may be misinterpreted and expanded by the judiciary or exploited by those seeking to harm the interests of the UK. Equally, the inclusion of a “reasonable excuse” defence for the obtaining of material benefit from designated bodies is a cause for concern. The wording is sufficiently broad that it may encompass excuses that are not intended to be captured. Moreover, the Minister has repeatedly resisted amendments with much tighter wording, arguing that the intention was for this Bill to be drawn as narrowly as possible.
Given the perhaps unhelpful manner that the Government have displayed during the passage of the Bill, I was extremely surprised to see these amendments appear on the supplementary Marshalled List last night. The tabling of amendments at the 11th hour, with minor drafting tweaks, would make the reasonable observer conclude that the Government have been involved in the drafting process. However, I struggle to believe that would be the case, given that the Government have told the Official Opposition on multiple occasions that they were unable to make further policy decisions during the interregnum. Indeed, they were so unwavering in this stance that they were unable to accept even amendments that had been confirmed as government policy, such as that on the seizure of passports. Therefore, I look to the Minister to assure the House that there has been no government involvement in the drafting of amendments in this group. Can he confirm that?
I can only reasonably assume that the Government will therefore be unable to accept the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Northover. If the Government have offered assistance to the Liberal Democrats and are willing to accept the amendments in this group, I have several further questions for the Minister. Why did he inform us that the Government’s hands were tied and that no compromises could be made on the Bill between Second Reading and today? Given that the Conservatives also raised the issue of a defence to the offence of supporting a designated body, why were the Government willing to give preferential treatment and to work with Liberal Democrat Peers, but not the Conservatives? The Government informed us several times that, even with amendments they were sympathetic to, there simply was not enough time to draft them in an acceptable form during the passage of the Bill. Can the Minister now confirm that this was not the case, or did the Home Office increase the capacity of the legislative team over the weekend?
The concerns raised by the amendments in this group are not novel. In the spirit of collaboration, I even wrote to the Minister on 10 June, before Second Reading, outlining the issues on which we wished to work constructively. We were told in no uncertain terms that, on every issue raised, the Government were unable or indeed unwilling to act. The decision therefore to assist in the drafting of amendments that were published the night before Committee is just not satisfactory. It leaves noble Lords with very little time to consider amendments that concern national security and which are an unfortunate attempt at avoiding genuine parliamentary scrutiny. I would be very pleased if the Minister could address these concerns.
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
For the avoidance of doubt, I quite like the noble Lord, and we have a good relationship on these matters. I think I have constructive discussions on these matters with both noble Lords opposite. But I want to say to the House that I have been very clear to the noble Lord from His Majesty’s loyal Opposition that there are certain things we can do and there are certain things we cannot. There are some issues we agree with, but not in this Bill, and there are other measures we will return to in future legislation. I have tried to not dilute the central purpose of this Bill, which is to give the Home Secretary a power to designate anybody that she, having taken advice from a range of sources in the Home Office and through agencies, thinks is a threat to the state.
As I have said, the issues the noble Lord has tried to shoehorn into the Bill are ones the Government in part agree with, and we will find a proper mechanism to implement those policies in due course. I did not want to extend the scope of the Bill, nor did I want to put in measures that, in my view, dilute its core purpose. That is why I have not been able to help the noble Lord.
The noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich, and the noble Baroness, Lady Northover—and indeed the Liberal Democrat Front Bench—made points about the unintended consequence of humanitarian, journalistic or other agencies being caught. I have tried, privately and at Second Reading, to give assurances that the Bill as drafted would not lead to those unintended consequences.
But it is perfectly reasonable for a Minister, between Second Reading and Committee, to listen to representations that are made and, as has happened, to have my officials and other Ministers in the department meet a range of humanitarian bodies, and to have respected journalists, such as Alex Crawford and Kate Adie, who were mentioned, raise issues with Members of this House where they are concerned about the impact of a particular Bill; and for us as a Government to reflect on those matters and, when amendments are discussed, to agree, potentially, areas where we can accept them. Yes, I accept that they are checked by Home Office lawyers, because this is the law of the land which the Home Office has to implement, but, with due respect to the noble Lord, I do not think that that is rejecting the things that he said.
I have tried to have a focus on the Bill. In my view, the amendments we have accepted give additional certainty. We thought we had that certainty, but requests were made to give that additional certainty and therefore we have done so. There are amendments in this group that we have not accepted and I cannot accept—I am afraid I am a perpetual disappointment to the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, on his Amendment 22. But, in saying that I cannot accept the amendment he has tabled, I reassure him that the Bill we have crafted is designed to ensure that legitimate activities such as diplomacy and journalism, and activities that support basic human needs, are not caught within its offences.
We have to be alive to the risks of creating blanket exemptions, which could easily be exploited by sophisticated state actors. We have genuine concerns that exemptions could create simple loopholes for hostile actors to exploit. Those hostile actors frequently operate behind front organisations and sometimes shell charities, so a general carve-out would allow those bodies to carry out activities under the guise of relief work. I know the noble Lord does not want that, and he will know that that would not be right. There is a risk that legitimate humanitarian organisations are infiltrated by hostile actors, and, again, we must avoid unintended consequences.
However, I have recognised the concerns of the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, and the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich, and I said what I said in my earlier introductory remarks, which do not need repeating. I am grateful to the noble Lords for their thoughtful and constructive amendments. They have helped strengthen the Bill and broaden its support, and they have meant that we have been able to tighten in many ways the concerns that were raised and address those properly.
I come back to the final point that the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Gower, mentioned. He made some good points; for example, there are things that he said on passports that are important. I agree with him; I have said to him, privately and on the Floor of the House at Second Reading, and I say to him now, that the Government hope they can do those things in this Session of Parliament. But the Bill before us is narrowly defined for a specific purpose, which is one I suspect he supports and which, ultimately, if the Bill can achieve early passage, will be resolved.
In answer to the question on whether the amendments we accept have to go back to the House of Commons, I say yes, that is right, but I am confident they will be agreed. I cannot say when, because I am not the business manager for the House of Commons, but I expect it to be done as soon as possible. If those amendments are accepted here, I have 110% confidence that they will be accepted in the House of Commons. Therefore, the Bill, as amended, with the safeguards that have been sought, can be presented for potential Royal Assent, and the powers that are in it can be exercised by the Home Secretary as a matter of urgency.
I therefore commend the amendments that I have indicated—Amendments 12A, 13A, 17A, 18A and 19A—to the Committee in support of the noble Lords, and I ask the noble Lord, Lord Alton, whether he will allow me to reflect still further on his Amendment 22, as discussed.
Baroness Northover (LD)
I am grateful to the Minister. It is important that we focus on the matter in hand, what the Government are seeking to do, making sure there are no unintended consequences and taking this forward. I hear the concern from the Conservative Front Bench, but I hope that they are able to see the bigger picture of what this was about and what we were seeking to do, which was not party-political in any way. It was simply to try to remedy some defects that we saw. We are grateful that the Government were able to hear that. It was something that was echoed by a number of organisations and lots of experts helping us in this regard. I am glad that in the end that was heard and therefore we have a better, safer Bill without those defects. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Northover
“(e) for the purpose of carrying out humanitarian activities.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment, together with others in the name of Baroness Northover, provides a defence to the section 17B prohibition for the provision of humanitarian activities in accordance with internationally recognised principles and standards.
Baroness Northover
“(7A) For the purposes of subsection (6)(e), the reference to the carrying out of humanitarian activities does not include the carrying out of humanitarian activities in contravention of internationally recognised principles and standards applicable to the carrying out of humanitarian activities.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment, together with others in the name of Baroness Northover, provides a defence to the section 17B prohibition for the provision of humanitarian activities in accordance with internationally recognised principles and standards.
Lord Anderson of Ipswich
“(7A) In proceedings for an offence under subsection (1) or (2) where—(a) the benefit consists of, or includes, information, and(b) the conduct in question relates to that information,it is a defence to show that the person had a reasonable excuse for that conduct.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would create a reasonable excuse defence for obtaining, accepting or agreeing to accept information from or on behalf of a designated body.
Baroness Northover
“(d) for the purpose of carrying out humanitarian activities.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment, together with others in the name of Baroness Northover, provides a defence to the section 17C prohibition for the provision of humanitarian activities in accordance with internationally recognised principles and standards.
Lord Anderson of Ipswich
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on another amendment in Lord Anderson of Ipswich’s name.
Baroness Northover
“(9A) For the purposes of subsection (8)(d), the reference to the carrying out of humanitarian activities does not include the carrying out of humanitarian activities in contravention of internationally recognised principles and standards applicable to the carrying out of humanitarian activities.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment, together with others in the name of Baroness Northover, provides a defence to the section 17C prohibition for the provision of humanitarian activities in accordance with internationally recognised principles and standards.
Lord Davies of Gower
“17D Uniform and publication of images in relation to a designated body(1) A person in a public place commits an offence if the person—(a) wears an item of clothing, or(b) wears, carries or displays an article,in such a way or in such circumstances as to arouse reasonable suspicion that the person is a supporter of a designated body.(2) A person commits an offence if the person publishes an image of—(a) an item of clothing, or(b) any other article,in such a way or in such circumstances as to arouse reasonable suspicion that the person is a supporter of a designated body.(3) In subsection (2) the reference to an image is a reference to a still or moving image (produced by any means).(4) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale (or both).(5) A constable may seize an item of clothing or any other article if the constable— (a) reasonably suspects that it is evidence in relation to an offence under subsection (1), and(b) is satisfied that it is necessary to seize it in order to prevent the evidence being concealed, lost, altered or destroyed.(6) In connection with exercising the power in subsection (5), a constable may require a person to remove the item of clothing or other article if the person is wearing it.(7) The powers conferred by subsections (5) and (6) may not be exercised so as to seize, or require a person to remove, an item of clothing being worn next to the skin or immediately over a garment being worn as underwear.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would create an offence of wearing or displaying in public, or publishing an image of, an article in a way that arouses reasonable suspicion that a person is a supporter of a designated body.
Lord Davies of Gower (Con)
My Lords, I have already made it clear that the way the Government have dealt with this Bill is unfortunate, so I will not dwell on that any longer. The amendments in this group reflect the concerns that the Opposition have raised with the Government on a number of occasions. The Government have told us that they cannot accept any of them for myriad reasons. As I hope I will demonstrate to the Committee, every one of the Government’s arguments will fail at the first hint of scrutiny.
Amendment 20 would create an offence of wearing or displaying in public an article in a way that arouses reasonable suspicion that a person is a supporter of a designated body. This would include those who publish an image of such articles. This amendment seeks to correct the strange situation that could arise under this Bill whereby a state entity may be designated, but it would not be an offence to display its insignia or to glorify it online.
Viscount Hailsham (Con)
I am a little concerned by what is meant by an article of clothing. My noble friend will know that the keffiyeh is widely worn on the streets of London and was much associated, when worn by Yasser Arafat, with the PLO. Is there a risk that the wearing of the keffiyeh would be associated with support for a designated body? If there is, we are in very serious trouble.
Lord Davies of Gower (Con)
I am not well-acquainted with this article of clothing.
Lord Davies of Gower (Con)
Should it come before a court, the court would have to decide. Further than that I cannot comment, but I take on board what the noble Lord says.
Getting back to what I was saying, such provisions already exist for proscribed organisations under Section 13 of the Terrorism Act. Where the IRGC is designated under this legislation, its insignia and flags could be displayed openly in public with complete legal impunity. Hordes of its supporters could wave IRGC flags on British streets and intimidate members of the Jewish community, and avoid any legal ramifications. This is an obvious legislative gap that is damaging to public confidence.
At Second Reading, the Minister said that banning uniforms would impact legitimate engagement of the designated state body, which would need to continue, for example, on diplomatic channels. I do not buy that argument. We are not legislating for Iran in this Bill; we are legislating for the United Kingdom. The offences do not apply to non-UK persons outside the United Kingdom. My amendments would not criminalise the display of IRGC insignia in Tehran. They would criminalise such acts only in Britain. I contend that, if, for some reason, an Iranian diplomat came to the country for diplomatic negotiations—although I do not believe that that has happened since 1980—it would be perfectly acceptable to require them not to wear an IRGC uniform or insignia.
If noble Lords are not convinced by my arguments then perhaps the following words will help put forward the case for my amendment. For the same reason as penalising support,
“it should also be an offence to display in public a flag or other insignia in such a way as to arouse reasonable suspicion that a person is a member or supporter of a”
foreign intelligence service subject to a statutory alert and liability threat notice. The argument continues:
“This is by parity with section 13 Terrorism Act 2000 which applies only to public displays.”
These were the words of Jonathan Hall KC, the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation and Independent Reviewer of State Threats Legislation, in his report published last year.
Much of this legislation has been justified by the Government on the grounds that it is rooted in the recommendations made by Jonathan Hall in his independent review. This amendment is a policy recommendation explicitly called for in his review. If the Government believe that his recommendation is grounds for policy justification, why does that not apply to our amendment, or will the Minister say that he believes that Jonathan Hall was wrong to suggest that uniforms should be banned?
This Government have been one categorised and defined by reviews. On countless occasions, across a range of departments, my colleagues and I have been told by the Government that they are waiting for the outcome of a review before taking any decisive action. Well, the review has concluded and Jonathan Hall has been clear, and now the Government have decided that they want to pick and choose which recommendations they would like to take forward. That raises the important question: why bother having the review in the first place?
Amendment 23 would give the police and immigration officers the power to seize the passports of individuals attempting to leave the country to assist a designated body abroad. It would do that by replicating the provisions of Section 1 and Schedule 1 to the Counter-Terrorism and Security Act 2015. The amendment details at length the powers available to police and immigration officers to seize passports, and would ensure that the same safeguards in the 2015 Act are in place.
I remind noble Lords that this too was a direct recommendation from Jonathan Hall’s report. He said:
“There is a strong case for enabling speedy action to remove a passport from a person who would otherwise leave the jurisdiction, where there is suspicion of involvement in foreign power threat activity”.
At Second Reading, the Minister stated:
“We are going to do it; we are just not going to do it in this Bill, which is a specifically designed piece of legislation to give powers to the Home Secretary. We will have further national security legislation later in his Parliament”.—[Official Report, 23/6/26; col. 614.].
In our discussions with the Government, they once again said that they agreed with Jonathan Hall KC and that they would do this at some point in this Session. When we asked the Government why, if they had accepted the recommendation, they would not implement it in this Bill, we were simply told that the Home Office did not have enough time to draft the amendment. But the Government have had over a year since Jonathan Hall KC’s report to sort out the policy detail. They have had a year to get the drafting right. Let us be under no illusion about how much time it would actually take them to draft this power. They are not starting from scratch. We already have the framework for the power in law in the Counter-Terrorism and Security Act 2015, as I have already mentioned. Half the job has already been done.
I have tabled my amendment, which the Minister will know is a more comprehensive version of the amendment tabled in the Commons, to show the Government that it can be done. If the Opposition can draft a comprehensive amendment on past procedure in a few days then surely the Government, with their Civil Service, can do the same.
The other criticism the Government have raised is that the amendment retabled in the Commons was too narrow, as they want the power to be extended further than to just those travelling abroad to assist a designated group. To do that, the Government say they need more time to ensure that this legislative gap is properly addressed, but all the while they prevaricate the legislative gap remains in place. If the Government want a wider power of passport seizure, applying to more offences in the National Security Act, they can bring forward a wider power in future legislation. I would be fine with that, but why will they not accept this narrower power for now as a stopgap while they draft the wider power?
Finally, Amendment 21 seeks to emulate the offence of disseminating terrorist publications in the Terrorism Act 2006. I have heard what the Minister has said about the differences between designating state-linked bodies and proscribing terrorist groups. I accept that there is a difference, but this is an issue where the difference in treatment is not borne out by the facts. The bodies we are dealing with in this threats regime are the very bodies engaging in propaganda to further their nefarious ends. The IRGC distributes materials encouraging others to wage war against the West. For example, the IRGC has founded news outlets, including Sepah News, Tasnim News Agency and Fars News Agency among others. The Seraj Cyberspace Organization serves as a central organisation that recruits and mobilises pro-regime users to conduct online operations for the IRGC. This includes social media campaigns, spreading disinformation online, and fomenting divisions among opposition groups through targeted operations. It has developed an expanded initiative to increase the IRGC’s human capacity online—its so-called soft war officers, who have been particularly active since the anti-regime protests in Iran in 2022 and the Hamas terrorist attacks on 7 October.
Other countries are taking action against the propaganda spread by the IRGC. In May, Europol’s internal referral unit launched co-ordinated action to target the IRGC’s online content after the EU designated it a terrorist organisation. It took down a total of 14,200 posts linked to the group. This operation exposed the enormous extent and reach of the IRGC’s online activities. Europol said:
“The content was spread across mainstream social media platforms as well as streaming services … Propaganda was identified in several languages, including Arabic, Bahasa Indonesia, English, French, Persian, and Spanish. The material ranged from speeches blending religious martyrdom narratives with highly charged political messaging to AI-generated videos glorifying the IRGC and calls to avenge the Ayatollah Ali Khamenei”.
There we have it—AI-generated videos glorifying the IRGC, calls to violence, blogs, recruitment of online operatives and more. The reach of the IRGC’s propaganda and violent material is vast and it is only growing.
I will not accept that designated bodies are different from terrorist groups when it comes to the dissemination of propaganda material. The Government stated that they believed dissemination would fall under the Section 17A offence of inviting support for a designated body. However, the reality is that many publications may not explicitly invite support for, in the limited sense as applied in Section 17A. They may simply glorify the actions and activities of the designated body. I have already given many examples of the myriad ways in which groups like the IRGC disseminate material. If this is the reality then it is abundantly clear that there is a gaping hole in the Bill.
The corresponding terrorism offence that my Amendment 21 is modelled on is contained in Section 2 of the Terrorism Act 2006. The offence in new Section 17A of inviting support for a designated body is modelled on the offence in Section 12 of the Terrorism Act 2000. These two offences were enacted six years apart. It is therefore evident that the Government and Parliament believed in 2005, when the new Terrorism Bill was introduced, that the original Section 12 offence in the 2000 Act was insufficient to deal with the full range of terrorist publications. If they believed otherwise, they would not have sought to create a separate stand-alone offence of dissemination in the 2006 Act. In other words, Parliament has already confirmed its belief that “inviting support for” does not sufficiently cover the wider dissemination of supportive materials. That is clearly evidenced by the arguments from the Government at the time. In 2005 the Minister responsible, the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, said that the Government wanted to give law enforcement agencies the tools they needed to tackle a particular mischief: the dissemination of publications in context, which means that they will either encourage terrorism or be of use to terrorists in practical ways. That was a very clear statement.
Lord Verdirame (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I have added my name in support of Amendment 20 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Gower. As he has explained, Amendment 20 would create an offence mirroring an existing offence in Section 13 of the Terrorism Act 2000. Under that section, it is already an offence for a person to wear an item of clothing in such a way or in such circumstances as to arouse reasonable suspicion that that person is a supporter of a proscribed terrorist organisation. So we already have that offence in Section 13 of the Terrorism Act in respect of proscribed terrorism organisations; but, unless Amendment 20 is adopted, there will be no similar offence for someone wearing a uniform or displaying the insignia of a designated body.
I agree with those who have said a number of times that state threats call for a different response in some respects from that which we adopt in respect of terrorist organisations, but I do not see why, in respect of this particular offence, a different approach is needed. With this Bill we are trying to protect our public spaces—our public sphere, really—from the influence of malign foreign state organisations and from their attempts to subvert our democratic values and our liberal principles.
The Bill criminalises supporting a designated body but, as the Minister has explained before, it does so on a basis that is more demanding than for the corresponding offence under the Terrorism Act, so it would be challenging to rely on the offence of “supporting” to target the particular conduct Amendment 20 is aimed at. The “supporting” offence requires a prohibited purpose, which is defined as follows:
“that the person knows, or having regard to other matters known to them ought reasonably to know”,
that the purpose
“is prejudicial to the safety or interests of the United Kingdom”.
Faced with a person wearing the uniform of a designated organisation or carrying the insignia of that organisation in our streets, it would be difficult for the police to apply that test and quickly determine whether the prohibited purpose, which is not a low bar, was satisfied in the specific circumstances. But, if we have an offence such as Amendment 20 would introduce, which mirrors an existing offence under terrorism legislation, that determination could be made more simply and there would be no reason for the police to hesitate.
I hesitate to make comparisons with the 1930s, but I imagine that if we had had this power then, we would have designated the SS and then surely would have expected our police to arrest those wearing SS uniform in public spaces. I do not understand the hesitation the Government have in adopting this amendment, which, as we have heard, has already been recommended by a number of experts. I do not believe that immunity is a good reason. It is already the case that if an Iranian diplomat chooses to wear a Hamas uniform, he cannot be arrested because he enjoys immunity. Even though he would be committing an offence under Section 13 of the Terrorism Act, that diplomat would be able to invoke immunity. If the same person chooses to wear in London an IRGC uniform—if the Government end up designating that organisation—that person would be entitled to immunity. I do not think that immunity is a good reason for not extending this offence to designated organisations. For that reason, I hope that the Government will be able to support the amendment or, at the very least, indicate a willingness to adopt an offence on very similar terms. If the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Gower, is going to divide the Committee on his amendment, he will have my support.
Lord Walney (CB)
My Lords, I too have added my name in support of Amendment 20 and endorse everything my noble friend Lord Verdirame has just said. I will briefly add, for emphasis, that the Government have promised an equivalent power for state-related organisations and without this, one of the key planks would not have an equivalent power.
Finally, if I understood correctly the concern expressed about the keffiyeh at the beginning of speech of the noble Lord, Lord Davies, is that not an article of clothing now commonly associated with a fully proscribed terrorist organisation, Hamas? As has been said, if such legal jeopardy arose, the relevant law does exist—Section 13 of the Terrorism Act. It is not widely used, and the argument would probably be that this headdress was originally about the assertion of Palestinian national identity. It has indeed been co-opted by supporters of Hamas, but it is a separate question which I do not think impinges on whether this amendment ought to be supported.
Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)
My Lords, I hesitate to do so, but I disagree with my two noble friends who have just spoken. Some years ago I was in a supermarket in London and found myself standing next to an approximately 17 year-old young man who was wearing a t-shirt with a swastika on it. He was entitled to wear that if he wished, because it is not unlawful to wear a t-shirt with a swastika on it, however much one disapproves. I turned to the young man and, in a moment of complete foolishness, I suppose, said to him, “Excuse me, but do you realise that 6 million people were murdered by the Nazis on the back of that particular insignia?” He turned to me and said, “Sir, I’m most awfully sorry: I never knew that, and I will never wear this again”. I was surprised that I got away with it and lived to tell the tale, as noble Lords will be sure I have on many occasions.
I do not think that in this Bill, we should be criminalising the mere wearing of such insignia as I have described. This is not a counterterrorism Bill; this is a counter-state threats Bill. We had this discussion at Second Reading and, in my view at least, we are not merely replicating what is in other Acts of Parliament. Further, if somebody wears an insignia and there is a public order disturbance or a racially aggravated public order disturbance, there are plenty of other laws to deal with that activity.
My final reason for objecting to this amendment is one that perhaps some will think trivial. However, if your Lordships were to look at new Section 17B of the 2023 Act, on page 4 of the Bill, between lines 13 and 21 it contains no fewer than four split infinitives in “to materially assist”, to which I object as a matter of principle. I hope that the Minister might agree that they should read “materially to assist” in order to comply with the English language, something I was taught by my foreigner parents to comply with at all times if possible.
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)
My Lords, we cannot support these amendments. As we have heard several times, this is emergency legislation, introduced at a time when an urgent response is necessary to the activities of some truly malign state actors and their proxies.
There has been a dangerous escalation in recent months and years, not only of the threats of military and quasi-military attacks, but of cyber attacks on our energy and transport infrastructures and on our economy more widely. Then there has been an appalling outbreak of antisemitic attacks in the UK and abroad, and in allied countries such as Australia. Those attacks have also given occasion, we should remember, to anti-Muslim attacks at home and abroad. Our traditions of tolerance and peaceful co-existence have been, and have certainly seemed, constantly under threat.
Against that background, it has been considered that the mechanisms of proscription under existing terrorism legislation have needed supplementing with the provisions of this Bill concerning malign state-sponsored threats. As the Minister has confirmed, and I do not wish to be repetitive of what has been said many times in the debates today, there is to be further government legislation to tackle the growing threat from foreign state entities and their proxies, and to improve this country’s defences against cyber security threats. The Bill is, in that sense, work in progress.
We do not see the need to tack on to the Bill new offences of wearing items of uniform, dissemination of particular types of publication, or further complex new powers for seizure of passports, all in the last stages of a piece of emergency legislation. There may be a case for some version of some of the measures proposed, under some conditions, after careful later consideration.
I echo some of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, but there are other points about the difficulties we have had with the Terrorism Act and other legislation. I am not sure that I go as far as he does on split infinitives, although my personal preference echoes his. We should not be introducing legislation at this stage which would raise all the issues that have so troubled us under the Terrorism Act. Now is not the time for these measures and this emergency legislation is not the Bill.
Lord Pickles (Con)
My Lords, I normally bow to the views of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, on these matters—I am not entirely sure I understand the point he made about split infinitives—but I am not sure he is right on this occasion; nor was the noble Lord who last spoke. The IRGC, for example, is not simply a military arm of the Iranian state. It also operates through propaganda, symbolism, recruitment and ideological influence. While the Bill addresses the hostile state activity, I do not believe it adequately addresses the ideological dimension.
Noble Lords have spoken about the level of antisemitism, which has been considerably worsened by the number of marches that we have seen display the symbols, flags and uniforms of terrorist organisations. There should be consistency between “designation” and a “proscribed organisation”. Designation should also have practical consequences. It would be very difficult to explain to members of the public why a designated organisation’s flags, insignia and symbols should continue to be displayed in support of that organisation at marches or on the street. Terrorism legislation already recognises the importance of symbols, uniforms and imagery in demonstrating support. This amendment would close a potential gap in the legislation.
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Davies, for giving the Committee the opportunity to debate these amendments, and I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, for articulating the general position that the Government will take. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, for the comments that he made, which mirror some of the points I will make in my response.
I completely understand why the noble Lords, Lord Davies of Gower, Lord Pickles—who has just spoken—Lord Walney and Lord Verdirame, wish to pass these amendments. They make a legitimate argument. The Government are clear in their opposition to all forms of terrorist support, particularly in the current context of antisemitism, and there are key issues that the Government wish to take specific action on. I will say a few words about each of the proposed offences in turn.
As has been said, Amendment 20 is modelled on Section 13 of the Terrorism Act 2000, which relates to organisations proscribed for being concerned with terrorism. Section 13 has proved to be operationally useful as a strict liability offence, meaning the prosecution does not have to prove an individual’s intention or state of mind. Terrorist organisations seek to recruit others to further their harmful ideologies, and wearing a terrorist uniform or displaying insignia, a flag or a logo are all acts of strength or dominance, if not terror. Section 13 seeks to deny proscribed organisations that oxygen of publicity.
However—this is where I hope I can offer an explanation to the Committee—as was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew, for bodies involved in state threat activity, the situation is different. Foreign intelligence services and their proxies largely operate covertly and discreetly. This means that acts of flag waving and wearing a uniform in allegiance to a designated body are less of a concern. Notwithstanding difficulties that may arise with immunity from prosecution, in the event that a state body is designated, the offence could criminalise, among other things, a visiting military attaché, an embassy worker, or a cultural delegation. This could have profound consequences for diplomatic relations, and, where a designated body is a front company that was previously perceived as legitimate, this strict liability offence might punish those who simply fail to remove that body’s branding. Any need for the offence is especially limited, given that the offence of “supporting a designated body” under new Section 17A is wide enough in scope to capture the same activities. I therefore cannot accept Amendment 20.
I shall comment also on Amendment 21, which relates to a new offence:
“Dissemination of publications relating to a designated body”.
It includes a power for constables to seek the removal of internet-based publications. Again, the amendment replicates Sections 2 and 3 of the Terrorism Act 2006, but for designated entities. These offences cover the sale or other dissemination of books or other publications that encourage people to engage in terrorism or provide information that could be useful to terrorists. The Act, as currently constituted, provides a power for police to require the takedown of such material by internet service providers.
Section 2 of the Terrorism Act 2006 is designed to criminalise the dissemination of terrorist publications. It was introduced recognising the significant harm that can be caused. This offence purposely is not dependent on an organisation having been proscribed, recognising that terrorist publications may include publications which include and encourage the commission, preparation or instigation of acts of terrorism more broadly. In contrast, this Bill focuses on the strengthening of our response to organisations involved in foreign power threat activities that pose an acute threat to the UK and its interests. The threat from publications in this context is, I would suggest, not the same.
Offences in the National Security Act were specifically designed to target threats from state-linked activity, and that Act contains a number of offences that do not appear in terrorism legislation, including assisting a foreign intelligence service. In addition, this Bill includes offences under new Section 17A if a person
“invites support for, or expresses an opinion or belief that is supportive of, a designated body, and does so for a prohibited purpose”.
I contend that this offence is wide enough to capture the dissemination of publications where those requirements are met. A replicated offence in this case is not appropriate or required to address the state threats, and, incidentally, it was not recommended by Jonathan Hall KC, the Independent Reviewer of State Threats Legislation, who cautioned against directly copying these offences. He said:
“There is no evidence that penalising general encouragement of state threat activity is needed to avert harm to national security”.
Therefore, I suggest to the noble Lord that this amendment is unnecessary: it is not recommended by Jonathan Hall and the powers should not be included in the Bill.
The final amendment is one we have discussed on several occasions, including today. Amendment 23 seeks to give effect to Jonathan Hall KC’s recommendation that the police be given the power to seize passports. Whereas Jonathan Hall KC recommended that the power should be available on the basis of suspected foreign power threat activity, as currently exists for terrorism-related activity, this amendment is more limited in its application. Noble Lords will be aware that the Bill before us covers a range of issues, but as to the proposal in this amendment, I have already given a commitment on several occasions to deliver all Jonathan Hall KC’s recommendations in the report that inspired this Bill, including the question of passport seizure, which Amendment 23 seeks to examine. However, I have been clear that, in doing so, the Bill should focus narrowly on the new proscription-like power to tackle state threats, and it is not the right vehicle for this proposal.
The noble Lord’s Amendment 23 covers pages 14 to 26 of the amendment paper, the Marshalled List that is in front of us today. It takes 13 pages to give implementation to the policy objective of banning passports. I suggest that the noble Lord will probably ask me, at some point, why I will not accept his amendment. He has tabled 13 pages full of detailed points, which he suggests will meet the objective, but I cannot necessarily say to the Committee that they do meet that objective.
On Amendment 23, I told the noble Lord that we will achieve the objective he described in our own time, with proper legal facility. The noble Lord shakes his head, or perhaps I should say he looks quizzically at me: I think he will agree with that. I assure him that we want to meet the objective he set, but not in this Bill. I cannot be any clearer than that. I recognise that, at 13 pages, such provisions require detailed policy work, done in concert with key operational partners. While noble Lords have sensibly drawn their inspiration from the Counter-Terrorism and Security Act 2015, it is an assumption that all those provisions are fit for the purpose of the state threats context. The detailed policy work needs to be completed, and we need to ensure that we have operational guidance for partners, to be ready on commencement of the legislation. I am afraid the noble Lord’s Amendment 23 does not meet that objective.
I assure the noble Lord that we are not on different pages on this. The Bill is a specific Bill for a specific purpose and, while I agree with its general direction of travel, Amendment 23 is not fit for purpose. I therefore ask the noble Lord not press Amendments 20, 21 or 23, for the reasons I have outlined. However, should he choose to do so, I invite my noble friends to vote against them.
Lord Davies of Gower (Con)
I thank the noble Lords, Lord Walney and Lord Verdirame, and my noble friend Lord Pickles, for their support, and I thank the Minister for his response. I listened to what the noble Lords, Lord Marks and Lord Carlile of Berriew, had to say about this. However, I remain unconvinced. The very act of wearing or displaying the insignia of a designated body can intimidate members of our society and damage community cohesion. I do not believe that the Bill, as drafted, offers sufficient safeguards to protect vulnerable individuals and communities who are targeted by foreign state powers.
If an individual wore an IRGC uniform and sat outside a synagogue, any reasonable member of the public would consider this an intimidatory act. However, the threshold for successful prosecution under a Section 17A offence would remain unacceptably high. The individual could argue that the purpose of wearing the uniform was not to express support for the designated body and that it was worn in a satirical context. Even if this extremely subjective intention could be disproved, it would then fall on the prosecution to show that such actions were prejudicial to the safety or interests of the UK, which is another subjective and potentially problematic barrier to prosecution.
I suggest that my amendment fixes this glaring loophole. It shuts down any avenues through which those who seek to terrorise others can evade prosecution. There are simply no justifications for why someone in the UK should be wearing or displaying the insignia of a designated state threat. Therefore, in line with Jonathan Hall’s recommendation, we should make it an offence to do so.
Amendment 23 concerns the seizure of passports of those suspected of supporting designated bodies, and this amendment has been unequivocally supported by Jonathan Hall, and is already a power which the police possess when combating terrorism. Let us be clear about this: it is not a new police power. It was a direct recommendation of a government-sanctioned review, and the Government have said that they will commit to implementing this policy. There is therefore no good reason to oppose this amendment, nor is there a logical or practical one.
Although the Government have pledged to implement this power in a future Bill, there are three concerns that remain which have not been assuaged by the Minister. First, any such future Bill will not receive Royal Assent before the Summer Recess. This means that those who support the IRGC will be protected from these police powers for a considerable length of time. What is the point of rushing to designate a group before Parliament concludes, but not giving the police force the necessary teeth to operate effectively?
Secondly, as I have made clear, the Government have perhaps acted in bad faith on this Bill. We on these Benches simply cannot wait for an unspecified date to enact a policy that can be accepted today. Thirdly, the Minister has acknowledged that his party is currently undergoing vast leadership changes. What is government policy today may not be government policy tomorrow.
I turn now to Amendment 21. As stated previously, this amendment would close yet another legislative gap in this Bill.
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
There is absolutely no indication from any potential new Prime Minister that any changes to security legislation will be made. The King’s gracious Speech, and this Bill, both stand.
Lord Davies of Gower (Con)
Amendment 21, as stated previously, would close yet another legislative gap in the Bill, a gap that was recognised 20 years ago and subsequently rectified in the Terrorism Act 2006. I remain unconvinced by the Government’s justification for opposing our amendment. If the Government and Parliament recognised 20 years ago that a specific criminal offence of dissemination was required to address a lacuna in the law in relation to terrorism, surely we must recognise today that it is precisely the same lacuna in this Bill.
If my amendments do not form part of the final Act, I fear that the types of propaganda by designated bodies that I mentioned earlier will be allowed to flourish, that the IRGC will be able to parade in its uniforms and with its flags, and that those seeking to travel abroad to assist the IRGC will not be stopped. If any of these things happen, a crucial test of the Bill— namely, its ability to target and disrupt state threats to the United Kingdom—will have failed.
The Government have shown that they are not willing to take the necessary action to strengthen the Bill. If that is the case, I am left with no choice but to test the opinion of the House.
Business of the House
(1 day, 4 hours ago)
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Captain of the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen-at-Arms and Chief Whip (Lord Kennedy of Southwark) (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, before we move on to the SI debate, I will remind the House of the plan for the remaining stages of the National Security (State Threats) Bill this evening.
As the Bill has been amended, it will need to be reprinted and prepared for Report. Once that has happened and the Bill is in the Printed Paper Office, there will be a 30-minute window for noble Lords to table amendments for Report. The precise timing will be advertised on the annunciator and through the usual channels. If any amendments are tabled, they will be debated in one group. As I mentioned yesterday and as discussed with the usual channels, the hope is that, given the substantive Committee stage, no amendments will be retabled for Report, which will be taken as a formality.
Once the tabling window has closed and any resulting preparations have been completed—for example, reissuing today’s list, if required—I will advertise a time for the remaining stages to commence on the annunciator and through the usual channels. If required, the House might have to have a short adjournment during pleasure after the planned SI and Statement if time is still needed to prepare the Bill for the remaining stages. I will update the House as needed throughout the evening.
Town and Country Planning (Discharge of Local Planning Authority Functions) (England) Regulations 2026
(1 day, 4 hours ago)
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Baroness Taylor of Stevenage
That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 8 June be approved.
Relevant document: 6th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Baroness Taylor of Stevenage) (Lab)
My Lords, these regulations were laid before the House on 1 June and, following a minor correction, relaid on 8 June. They set out the arrangements for a national scheme of delegation for planning decisions in England and a maximum limit on the number of members who may sit on planning committees. They are necessary to improve the effectiveness of planning committees and the quality and speed of decision-making in local planning authorities. If Parliament approves them, the regulations will come into effect on 31 October 2026.
Before I get into the detail of the regulations, I will respond to the Motion before us. I start by making it very clear that what we are doing is not an attack on local democracy. We know how vital local planning committees are. They know their communities and what development is needed in their area. We are trying to support them so that they can be as effective as possible. The regulations will allow them to focus on the applications which really matter to their communities, so that the housing and growth that they want and need can be delivered as quickly as possible. We also do not want to put further pressure on officers. They are skilled professionals. We want to ensure that they are trusted and empowered to make decisions on more applications, and more quickly, to ensure that much-needed development is brought forward in the right places at the right time.
These measures will mean that less time and resource will be spent on preparing for committee meetings for those smaller applications in Schedule 1, speeding up the decision-making process more broadly and freeing up important officer time to focus on those larger applications. These regulations do not change in any way the right of people to submit representations on planning applications, nor do they alter the existing requirements to consult on planning applications.
We have published statutory guidance to help local authorities implement these new measures and we have asked the Planning Advisory Service to provide support and training.
I will briefly explain how the national scheme of delegation will work. It places planning applications into two categories. In Schedule 1 are those applications which must always be delegated to a planning officer. The types of application we are talking about here are for minor residential development of up to nine dwellings, minor commercial and householder development. Schedule 2 sets out those applications which may, subject to meeting a gateway test, be referred to a planning committee for decision, including larger applications for planning permission not in Schedule 1. The presumption is that Schedule 2 applications will continue to be delegated to officers. However, we recognise that there may be cases where committee scrutiny would be appropriate and that is where the gateway test comes in.
Local planning authorities will need to identify a nominated officer, usually the chief planner or equivalent, and a nominated member, normally the chair of the committee, to determine whether an application meets the criteria of the gateway test. The nominated officer and member will have to agree that a Schedule 2 application meets at least one of the following criteria before it can be referred to committee: where the application raises an economic, social or environmental issue of significance to the local area; or where the application raises a significant planning matter having regard to the development plan and any other material considerations. It is only where the nominated officer and member agree that at least one of those criteria is met that the application can be referred to committee. Otherwise, it will be determined by a planning officer.
We recognise that in the interests of transparency and propriety, regardless of whether the gateway criteria are engaged, it may sometimes be appropriate to refer applications where there is local authority involvement to the planning committee. We have therefore made specific provision for this in the regulations. The regulations also set a limit of 13 on the number of members on a planning committee to allow for focused and quality debates.
We have undertaken extensive consultation and engagement with a wide range of stakeholders on these measures—from an initial working paper in 2024, through debates on the Planning and Infrastructure Act 2025, two public consultations and many round tables and other events. We have listened to the differing views expressed and considered them carefully as we developed the final measures. I hope that noble Lords will join me in supporting the draft regulations.
Amendment to the Motion
Lord Jamieson
At end to insert “but this House regrets that the draft Regulations will reduce local democratic oversight over planning decisions, and risk putting further pressure on council officers.”
Lord Jamieson (Con)
My Lords, I must first declare my interest as a councillor in Central Bedfordshire. These regulations may appear to be a relatively straightforward implementation of the Planning and Infrastructure Act, but they represent something much more significant. They change one of the fundamental democratic safeguards of our planning system.
Nobody on these Benches disputes that our planning system needs to work better. We need more homes. We need faster commercial developments and we need better infrastructure. We need a planning system that is efficient, proportionate and gives certainty to communities and developers alike. But we fear the Government are pursuing speed at the expense of democratic oversight, and I am afraid that, on this, I must disagree with the Minister.
Planning is not an exact science; it is an exercise in judgment. Planning officers, planning committees and inspectors are all required to weigh competing material planning considerations: the need for housing, economic growth, environmental protection, heritage, highways, design and the impact on neighbouring communities. The legislation and the National Planning Policy Framework provide the framework against which those decisions are made, but they cannot prescribe the weight and view for every one of those considerations. Ultimately, that is a matter of judgment.
In many cases, that judgment is relatively straightforward. That is why around 90% to 95% of planning applications are already determined by planning officers under delegated powers, with only a small proportion ever coming before elected planning committees. Of those that go to committees, the vast majority go in line with the planning officer’s recommendation. I cannot find national statistics, but for Central Bedfordshire, in the last 12 months, only one of the 56 applications that have gone to committee where the officer disagreed has been overturned on appeal. That is a very small number.
The applications that reach committee are often those where the balance of decision-making is finer: where they have a significant impact on a community, where residents have genuine concerns, where there are competing planning considerations to be weighed, or where substantial developments will have a lasting consequence on the character of an area. Those are precisely the cases where we need democratic accountability. People will not always agree with the outcome of a planning decision, but they are far more likely to accept the decision if they have seen the arguments tested in public by elected representatives who are accountable to the communities they serve. That is democracy in action.
These regulations, as the Minister highlighted, generate a national framework governing how authorities must discharge planning functions, and they significantly narrow the discretion that authorities have traditionally exercised through their own constitutions and schemes of delegation. As the Minister said, all Schedule 1 applications will include minor residential applications for nine homes or fewer, minor commercial and householder developments, and discharge of planning conditions and reserved matters for applications of up to 500 homes. Schedule 2 applications, which are largely all others, are presumed to be determined by officers unless, at the gateway test, both the nominated officer, who is normally the chief planner, and the nominated councillor, who is normally the chair of committee, agree that it raises
“an issue of economic, social or environmental significance to the … area”
or a significant planning matter
“having regard to the development plan and any other material considerations”.
That is a dramatic reduction in the democratic accountability of the planning system.
Let us look at Schedule 1. The Government suggest that these arrangements relate to minor applications, but this needs to be seen in context. An application for nine homes in a small village is significant. If you happen to be a neighbour, that is significant. What happens when a site is agreed with the suggested nine homes but is subsequently brought back with 15 or 20 homes under reserved matters? That is not an unusual situation. For developments of up to 500 homes, all reserved matters, discharge of conditions and Section 106 arrangements would be determined by officers.
When members of the public hear “reserved matters”, they think of the colour of the front door and so forth, and I would be very happy with officers determining that, but that is not the case. Those of us who have dealt with planning applications for a number of years know that reserved matters generally involve the layout, design, density, highways, landscaping, drainage, open space, how many community facilities are there and so forth. These are not trivial decisions. When the Minister was leader of Stevenage Borough Council, would she have been happy with a 500-home development in the centre of Stevenage and not having any influence on the decision being made?
This may be bad, but it gets worse. The threshold for some of those more major applications, which could involve thousands of homes, going to committee requires a “significant” issue. That is a very high planning threshold.
There are other practical considerations. Going to planning committee provides an intermediate step that allows local councillors to have a discussion with planning officers to get those extra things. I can relate examples in my own ward where we successfully worked with the developer to get a few houses moved in a different direction so that they did not overlook and to get some additional funding for recreation.
Lord in Waiting/Government Whip (Lord Wilson of Sedgefield) (Lab)
My Lords—
Lord Wilson of Sedgefield (Lab)
The noble Lord is aware, so may he bring his remarks to an end, if he does not mind?
Lord Jamieson (Con)
I will. I thank the noble Lord very much. This is time limited.
The planning system needs to strike a balance; this system does not. We need to ensure democratic accountability; there is no need to remove it.
Baroness Eaton (Con)
My Lords, I declare my interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Association. I am pleased to support the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Jamieson. Having spent many years in local government, including as chair of the Local Government Association, I want to make one simple point. While councils support the objective of improving the speed and efficiency of the planning system, they are concerned that these regulations risk doing so at the expense of local democratic accountability.
The Government have long argued that power should be devolved from Whitehall to local communities, yet these proposals move in the opposite direction by reducing the role of democratically elected local representatives. If the Government claim to believe in devolution and the northern powerhouse, then decisions about the future of northern towns and villages should remain with those elected by the people who live there.
The Local Government Association made this point clearly during the Government’s consultation. It recognised the case for reform but warned that a highly standardised national scheme of delegation does not reflect the diversity of planning authorities across England. A rural unitary authority, a metropolitan borough and a district council face very different planning challenges, and councils retain the flexibility to organise their planning committees and decision-making processes in ways that reflect the needs of their local communities.
I am particularly concerned by the removal of councillors’ ability to call applications before a planning committee. Call-in powers are not there to delay development. They provide an important democratic safeguard where an application raises significant local concern, complex planning issues or substantial public interest. The LGA recommended that an effective call-in mechanism should remain alongside the new gateway test. I regret that the Government have not accepted that recommendation.
The gateway test itself gives me cause for concern. If the nominated officer and the nominated member cannot agree that an application should come before the committee, it is automatically delegated to an officer. That default position seems the wrong way round. Where there is genuine disagreement, there should surely be a mechanism that allows democratic scrutiny rather than automatically bypassing it.
Finally, I question the decision to prescribe planning committee sizes through legislation. The Local Government Association has rightly pointed out that there is little evidence that committee size determines effectiveness. What it can affect is political balance and geographical representation, particularly as councils may become larger through local government reorganisation. Guidance would provide far greater flexibility than a statutory cap. Our councils are not resisting reform. They simply ask that the reform respects local democracy and recognises that one size does not fit all. For these reasons, I am pleased to support my noble friend’s regret amendment.
Lord Evans of Guisborough (Con)
My Lords,
“the days of Whitehall fighting devolution of power … are over for good”.
Those are not my words; they were the words of the right honourable Member for Makerfield in his speech yesterday morning. I understand that he may soon hold a position of power within the Government, and I wonder what he would make of these regulations that are placed in front of us this evening with their top-down, Whitehall-knows-best approach to local planning.
I chaired a planning committee for four years. I did five terms as a local councillor, and I know many of my noble friends and indeed noble Lords on all sides of the House—including the Minister—did good service in local government. I have a degree of déjà vu in talking about this again because I addressed this issue at Second Reading of the Planning and Infrastructure Bill last year when we first discussed this matter. One of the points that I made at the time was that relatively small planning applications can create precedents, which then mean that other buildings nearby can be developed in the same way; other pieces of land can be developed in the same way. A relatively small precedent can very quickly change the nature of a whole area of town or a whole borough; in particular, it can change the nature of our small villages and towns.
It is right that there is democratic input to that decision from people who are elected, rather than the decision being taken just by planning officers, who are there to provide guidance on the law and planning rules rather than direction to the committee. Furthermore, those of us who have been in local government know that quite often during campaigning we are asked about relatively small planning applications and controversial planning decisions, and what we are going to be doing about them.
Quite often, candidates campaign on those decisions. Of course, having campaigned, you have to recuse yourself from a planning committee decision; you cannot vote on it. At the moment, however, there is nothing to stop a person who has been elected appearing before a planning committee and making that case on behalf of their constituents. It is a very important role for elected members. Under these proposals, not only would a councillor not be able to do that, but there very often would not even be a committee for them to appear before.
When I chaired the planning committee at Havering, I was always very careful about keeping the public involved in what was happening. I knew that, for quite a lot of people, that committee was the only contact they had with the democratic elements of our local council. So the way that committee was conducted and the results that it produced reflected more widely on the whole organisation—not just on the elected councillors, but on the nature of the body itself and the way that it was seen by the public.
I was clear that the committee was basically a shop window for the council. What these proposals do, sadly, is take a shop window and turn it into an opaque window through which things are seen happening inside, but no one is quite sure what they are, and we leave the public to draw their own conclusions about it. In the current political atmosphere, that is quite a dangerous thing to do. The conclusions that people draw may not always be logical, and they may not always be fair to the people involved. This puts a lot of weight on our council officers as well, which quite often they do not want to have to take on.
My noble friends have dealt in detail with a lot of the inadequacies in the legislation. I had a fair bit I wanted to say, but I am mindful of the time and I promise the Whip that I will not run over. Still, I wonder—perhaps the Minister can explain it to us —how this set of regulations will pass the Makerfield test.
Baroness O’Neill of Bexley (Con)
My Lords, I rise in support of my noble friend Lord Jamieson; in doing so, I remind Members of my interest as vice-president of London Councils.
Most councillors will tell you the value of being able to refer planning decisions to a planning committee for consideration in public. As has just been said, it can mean that local residents can participate in the debate. They can draw issues to the attention of those making the decision as well as witness the decision-making process as it happens. It is therefore disappointing that this statutory instrument appears to reduce that opportunity by allowing an even higher number of applications to be delegated to officers. Written submissions, I am afraid, are not the same thing.
Indeed, there was a debate in the other place last week when Labour Members of Parliament were referencing the value of Article 4 directives to ensure that planning applications for houses of multiple occupation would be required. Fortunately, the Conservative council in the London Borough of Bexley, of which I have knowledge, did indeed seek an Article 4 directive to ensure that this was the case, as we believed it would ensure that the impact of those individual requests on our residents and infrastructure could be considered.
It is difficult to square seeking democracy in the planning process one week and reducing it the next. The planning process needs to be open and transparent, allowing planning applications to be referred to the democratically elected committee if members choose to do so. This can also add value, as it means that any potential issues or benefits can be aired, considered and possibly addressed. That quite often results in impacting the decision or applying conditions that might resolve some of the potential issues. It needs to be taken seriously.
This could be particularly relevant for reserve matters, as was said earlier, or the use of Section 106 money on larger developments, as the impact on the local community will be even greater. Residents are rightly interested in what is happening in their area, and while it is often difficult to explain that applications must be considered on planning grounds, referral to a committee allows that to happen. It also protects council officers. I am sure we have all heard the rumours about alleged brown envelopes over the years. What better way to ensure residents see the decision-making process in action than at a planning committee?
The suggestion is that referral could be by the gateway test, but that would be through an agreement between the head of development control or the named person and the planning committee chairman. They need to agree on the rationale and, as my noble friend Lady Eaton has just said, when that does not happen, the decision should remain with members. We live in a democratic society. We all know that the majority of applications are not contentious and are determined by officers. But when there is a reason for transparency, surely there should be a mechanism to allow for determination by committee. Planning applications can greatly impact residents’ lives, so surely they should be able to witness and participate in the process. I hope the Minister will be able to reassure us that this SI does not water down the system.
Baroness Pinnock (LD)
My Lords, I refer to my registered interest as a councillor on Kirklees Council. In my view, this is a developers’ charter. The Government have been hoodwinked into believing that around 5% of all planning applications that currently go to a planning committee for a decision are the basic cause of the lack of housebuilding. There are already over 1 million homes with full planning permission sufficient for the housing needs for at least the next three years. Where are the measures from the Government to stop the delay in building those homes? That is why this is a developers’ charter.
These regulations also fail a devolution test. The English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act 2026, plus the next Prime Minister’s strong support for greater devolution, all point in a direction diametrically opposed to the centralising zeal in these regulations. This is “Whitehall knows best” personified. There will be a national scheme of delegation which treats every part of the country as if it were the same. Planning situations in London are not the same as those in the hills of Yorkshire, but that is what these regulations state and impose on local people. The inadequacies of a centralised diktat are clear when considering Schedule 1 applications, which must be determined by planning officers. These include housing developments of up to nine units, as the Minister has said, but they are often the very applications that can affect neighbouring properties the most. Often these are infill sites, the development of large gardens, or small unallocated sites in the local plan.
That approach has consequences. Officers will be heavily lobbied by both councillors and residents, without there being recourse to an open forum to air the problems and the solutions. Schedule 2 includes all major residential applications and presumably, although it does not say so, big developments like data centres or incinerators. By default, those will be decided by planning officers, as the overriding presumption is that the functions listed in Schedule 2 will be delegated to officers. Public decision-making provides the antidote to allegations of corruption. Currently, the planning committee provides that essential transparency. How will officers’ integrity be protected in this not so very brave new world?
The gateway proposals are a mere sop to democracy. This is the only way to get open and democratic planning decisions made. The gateway consists, as we have heard, of a senior planning officer and a senior councillor deciding—presumably, behind closed doors—whether an application should go to planning committee. They have to consider the strict test in the regulations of whether there are one or more issues of economic, social or environmental significance to the local area or whether the proposal raises one or more significant planning matters. As we have heard, if the planning officer and senior councillor disagree, by regulation the officer must refuse to take it to committee but decide it instead in the closed confines of the planning office. Further, councillor call-ins of applications are banned. Even though we are in a democracy, “banned” is the word that is used. The weight of residents’ objections is no longer of any consequence as to whether an application is considered in a democratic way.
In a nutshell, these regulations promote secret decision-making and are anti-democratic and centralising in nature. Accusations of nimbyism were thrown at my colleague, Gideon Amos MP, by the Secretary of State. It simply illustrates the paucity of the Government’s proposals when they have to resort to bullying slogans.
Liberal Democrats will support the noble Lord, Lord Jamieson, if he decides to call a vote. A fatal Motion to stop these dreadful regulations is the Liberal Democrat preference, but we are aware that the Conservative Benches have a policy of not supporting such Motions, which significantly reduces the chance of success. However, we urge creative thinking by Liberal Democrats on councils to find workable ways within the regulations for transparent and democratic decision-making.
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their thoughtful and strongly expressed contributions to this debate. I understand why those points have been made.
I shall pick out some of the issues that have been raised. I think all noble Lords who spoke raised the issue of why the reform of planning committees is necessary. I know that that was done in a way that understands that we could not completely avoid changing planning; I picked up that nuance from noble Lords’ comments. Of course we recognise the important role that planning committees have in ensuring local democratic oversight, and we continue to believe that they will play a crucial role in planning decision-making in the future. As the noble Lord, Lord Jamieson, rightly pointed out, about 4% of applications actually go to committee now.
We have seen across the country an uneven postcode lottery, such that applicants do not get consistency in their decision-making. We have made a raft of changes through our reforms to planning, including introducing a new system to bring forward local plans quicker; we have consulted on a new, more rules-based national planning policy framework; and we are ensuring that councils have the resources they need to run a good planning service. It is vital that, in exercising democratic oversight, planning committees operate as effectively as possible. They should not revisit the same decisions but focus on those applications that really require member input.
The noble Baronesses, Lady O’Neill and Lady Pinnock, both referred to allegations of corruption in the planning process. I know that chairs of planning do get accused of this, but I never saw a brown envelope in 30 years of being in local government. I understand why those accusations are made, usually by people after a decision goes against them. The Government want to make sure that skilled planning officers in local authorities have the right level of trust and empowerment, allowing them to resolve more applications more quickly in the service of residents and businesses.
Most noble Lords who spoke also referred to the loss of local democracy. The Government really believe that the best way for councillors and communities to engage in the development proposed for their area is through the local plan process. I know that all those in this Chamber who have been local councillors will understand that that is the real way to influence the planning that goes ahead in your local area.
The changes we are making through the national scheme of delegation will support the plan-led system. They ensure that planning committees operate as effectively as possible, not revisiting decisions already considered through the local plan process and instead focusing on applications that require that vital member input. Where controversial development is proposed that has not been planned for, councillors will, of course, still play a key role in representing the voice of their communities. Importantly, we are not changing consultation rules—
Baroness Pinnock (LD)
I am really sorry to interrupt. It was not clear when I read the regulations, but is the Minister suggesting that any allocated site within the local plan will, per se, be an officer’s decision, not in principle but in detail as well?
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
They are subject to the gateway test, as I set out at the beginning of the debate. Local people will still be able to make representations. Regardless of who the decision-maker is, where those representations relate to the planning merits, they must be taken into account. As Members will know, planning officers have to set out their reasons for either approving or not approving a planning recommendation.
The noble Lord, Lord Jamieson, asked in particular about reserved matters. We recognise that in some cases reserved matters approval applications can relate to large-scale phased development taking place over many years: 20 or 30 years in some cases. While the principle of development will have been agreed at outline planning permission in these cases, each reserved matters application could still represent substantial major development in its own right—I think that is the question the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, was asking me—and in some cases that might mean that committee scrutiny is appropriate.
We have therefore categorised reserved matters applications in terms of the size of the related outline permission. Where they relate to a large outline planning permission—over 500 dwellings or 50,000 square metres of floorspace—they will fall into Schedule 2. This means that, where councils think it is necessary, they could be subject to the gateway test and be referred to committee. Where the outline permission does not meet that threshold, the reserved matters application will be in Schedule 1 and always delegated to an officer.
The noble Lord, Lord Jamieson, asked whether every Schedule 2 application needs to be considered for referral. Regulations do not require every Schedule 2 application to go through the gateway test. It will be open to local planning authorities to triage their Schedule 2 applications in ways that are appropriate for them, so that only certain Schedule 2 applications are considered by the nominated officer and member. For example, they may want to provide guidance on what is likely—this was a question the noble Lord, Lord Jamieson, asked—to be considered a significant economic, social or environmental issue in their area. Local authorities can do that.
The noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, asked specifically about the size of committees. We consulted initially on setting the cap on the size of a planning committee at 11 members. Having listened to feedback, we have now raised the limit to 13 members, recognising that some councils may be represented by members from multiple political parties. Where that is the case, we want to ensure that committees can accommodate this. However, that is a maximum and we continue to encourage councils to have a smaller number where appropriate. We have seen examples of sprawling committees having unruly debates that do not get anywhere, where decisions get delayed and, in some cases, are not taken at all. The intention behind introducing a cap is to allow for a more focused debate, which I believe will result in quicker and more robust decisions.
The noble Baronesses, Lady Eaton, Lady O’Neill and Lady Pinnock, all raised the issue of call-in powers. I understand the concerns about that but, under Schedule 2, local planning authorities can make their own rules on how they triage these applications. This could include, if they deemed it appropriate, a route for ward members to refer Schedule 2 applications to the gateway test. But ultimately, they can be taken to committee only if they pass the gateway test.
The noble Lord, Lord Evans, referred to my right honourable friend the Member for Makerfield, who is indeed a great champion of devolution. I look forward to working with him on that. He is also a great champion of growth and housing, and the infrastructure that supports them. I am sure that in his role in Manchester, he will have felt as frustrated as I did, as a council leader, with unnecessary delays in the planning system, so I am sure he will be working to ensure that we can make our planning system more efficient and speedier.
The noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, asked me how much difference these changes will make to the delivery of housing. I think the noble Lord, Lord Jamieson, referred to this as well. Streamlining the planning committee process will make a meaningful contribution to the delivery of much-needed housing and sustainable communities. We also anticipate that it will mean less time and resource spent on preparing for committee meetings for smaller applications under Schedule 1. It will therefore speed up the decision-making process more broadly and free up that important officer time to focus on larger applications, which will have a real impact on our goal to deliver 1.5 million homes in this Parliament.
Baroness Pinnock (LD)
I am sorry to interrupt again, but does the Minister accept that, often, delays in planning applications are caused by the developer when they do not provide all the evidence they are required to provide, say on highways? I will give her an example. There was an application where I live for 300 homes on an allocated site, so that was acceptable, but the highways submission referred to a site that the developer was undertaking 50 miles away. It referenced roads and supermarkets that did not exist, so the delay was caused by the developer. That is not unusual in my experience, so when are the Government going to tackle the delays caused by developers’ inadequate applications?
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
I suggest to the noble Baroness that freeing up some of the time of our experienced planners will give them the opportunity to go back to developers and challenge information like that when it is not adequate. The fact that there can be dialogue between the planning officers and the developers will definitely speed the process up.
In conclusion, I remind noble Lords what the regulations are seeking to achieve. They are about improving the quality and speed of decision-making, so that the housing and growth which local communities want and need can be delivered more quickly.
Lord Jamieson (Con)
Before the Minister sits down, may I query a couple of her comments? There was reference to the local plan. What happens with applications that are not in the local plan? Those are quite significant. We talked about reserved matters and the Minister admitted that, for very large applications, it is appropriate for those matters to come to a committee. But as both the Minister and I know, you have at local plan stage and at outline planning stage virtually nothing. It is a little more than a red line and some pretty graphics of what is proposed. There is nothing to tie the developer’s hands, and those changes can be very significant. We can see a 50% increase in the amount of housing, or the amount of affordable housing halving, the Section 106 amount halving—a whole series of things. Those are fundamental, not small changes. I agree with the Minister that the principle may have been agreed, but not the detail. There was also a comment about “significant” being decided locally. I just want to be clear: is the Minister saying that what is significant will be determined locally for level 2?
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
On the reserved matters, I have already set out in some detail how they are going to be treated, and that they can go back into the process. The size of an application’s related outline permission will fall into Schedule 2. That means it can be subject to the gateway test and referred to committee, where councils think that is necessary. Applications that are not in the local plan will be subject to the gateway test, so they will be treated exactly the same as another application.
Lord Jamieson (Con)
Sorry, I think there is a slight misunderstanding. I am referring to reserved matters applications below 500 houses. Obviously, the outline will have gone to committee, but, on my understanding of how it is written, will reserved matters for, say, a site of 499 houses, which is a major development in most places—and reserved matters can be dramatically different from what was initially envisaged—be allowed to come to committee if the senior planner and the senior officer believe that there has been a significant change? Further, the Minister referred to applications falling into Schedule 2 if they are not in the local plan. What about minor developments, which may not be in the local plan: would—and could—they go to committee?
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
The local authority will determine whether items that are not in the local plan are Schedule 1 or Schedule 2, and it will then decide whether those applications need to go through the gateway process. I am not sure what the argument is over reserved matters. While the principle of development is agreed at outline permission stage, every reserved matters application could still represent a substantial major development in its own right, and those will be subject to the same test as a new application coming in. If the outline permission does not meet that threshold, the reserved matters application will be in Schedule 1; if it does meet the threshold, it will go into Schedule 2 and be subject to the gateway test.
Lord Jamieson (Con)
I am sorry to be slightly pedantic on this, but the information I got from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee was very clear: any reserved matters application that is below 500 houses is in Schedule 1—there is no significance test. I would be very pleased if the Minister, either today or later, could clarify that. In the same vein, everything that is a minor development—nine houses or fewer, and so on—even if it is not in the local plan, will be determined as Schedule 1, and therefore not subject to planning. If the Minister could clarify that, either now or subsequently, it would be very much appreciated, because that was certainly not what the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee picked up.
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
I thought that I had been as clear as I can be. Applications for fewer than nine houses will automatically be in Schedule 1, and there will automatically be an officer decision, so there is no need to clarify that any further. On whether applications of significant social or economic interest would be brought to the attention of the committee, a local council can put a definition of that in its planning guidance if it wishes. If that answers the noble Lord’s question on that point, I hope that I have picked up all the questions I have been asked.
Lord Jamieson (Con)
I thank the Minister for her explanation, as I interpreted it. The English planning system has always sought to strike a balance between national government-set planning policy and local government and local authorities that put that policy into practice through democratically accountable institutions with knowledge of their local communities. That balance has served us well. I thank my noble friends Lady Eaton, Lady O’Neill and Lord Evans of Guisborough, and the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, for their contributions. They have all sung with one voice: they feel that these regulations will remove democracy and transparency and risk undermining faith in the system. Local planning committees that consider controversial applications give that opportunity for visible public decision-making, and there will be genuine consequences to passing these regulations.
These regulations move that balance to central prescription, not by changing planning policy itself to improve it, but by strong-arming how local authorities organise the democratic process by which planning decisions are made. All too many will be made in private, in the dark, and we will lose faith in it. That seems to contrast, as my noble friend Lord Evans of Guisborough said, with what a certain Member of the other House was saying yesterday about further devolution. It seems interesting that the first move the following day is a dramatic move towards centralisation.
We all accept that there are occasions when planning committees frustrate and delay development, but that is not a reason to completely undermine the democratic underpinning of the planning process. During the passage of the Bill, we proposed an amendment to tighten up the committee process without completely undermining it. Unfortunately, this was dismissed out of hand by the Minister. I recall the phrase “driving a coach and horses through” being used. We also sought to clarify the situation on brownfield, with a strong material presumption in favour of development on brownfield sites, which has also been rejected by the Government.
It is by providing clear, consistent planning policy and guidance, and a consistent and coherent planning process with appropriate checks and balances, that we can ensure a smooth-running planning system that the public have faith in, not by undermining the democratic fundamentals. For that reason, I would have liked to ask the House to support this regret amendment. However, I am a practical man and I recognise that, at this time of night and after dealing with a slightly contentious Bill earlier, noble Lords would probably prefer that I do not. So, with regret, I will not press my regret amendment.
Steel Trade Measure
(1 day, 4 hours ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)
My Lords, this episode says a great deal about the attention the Government pay to the business community. For months now, manufacturers, fabricators, construction firms and businesses in aerospace, automotive and defence have warned about the consequences of the Government’s original proposals, yet meaningful changes have come only at the 11th hour, just days before the new regime is due to take effect.
Now, we warmly welcome the partial changes that have been announced. It is right that the Government have increased the overall tariff-free quota, that they have reduced the proposed reduction in quota volumes from 60% to 51%, and that they have removed 11 product codes where there is no UK production. But the core problem remains. The Government have left untouched the 50% tariff once a quota is exhausted. This will be passed through supply chains into downstream sectors and ultimately into higher prices for British consumers.
Additionally, the Government themselves accept that some commodity codes contain both UK-produced and non-UK-produced grades and sizes. This poses grave problems for UK importing businesses which depend on specialist steel products, alloys and certified grades not readily available from domestic suppliers. There is therefore no genuine case-by-case exemption for specialist steel unavailable from a UK mill. There is only a quota. That is particularly worrying for smaller, high-value manufacturers—specialist firms which import smaller volumes but depend on particular grades—which have no realistic option but to pay the tariff. This will inevitably damage the competitiveness of our downstream sectors.
The Government have offered only a three-month transitional period, covering goods contracted before 14 March and imported between 1 July and 30 September. However, industrial supply agreements, particularly for specialist steel, can run for years. Firms that entered into good faith long-term contracts may still face a 50% tariff, simply because delivery falls outside an arbitrary three-month window. The Minister may say that there was no choice; that the existing safeguard expires today, 30 June; and that delay would expose British steelmakers to global overcapacity and subsidised imports. That is precisely why the Government should have brought forward a credible long-term plan earlier, rather than arriving at the deadline with an emergency measure which has needed significant revision in its final days.
The Government’s own strategy recognises the central problem of industrial electricity costs. Steel is energy intensive. If Britain wants a strong domestic steel industry, it needs electricity prices that allow British producers to compete, not merely survive behind a tariff wall. Will the Minister explain what further action the Government will take to bring industrial electricity costs down for steelmakers and steel users alike? Will the Government scrap the carbon price burden on energy-intensive industry, rather than allowing firms to face ever more complex costs through the UK emissions trading scheme and the future carbon border adjustment mechanism? Will the Minister also address the growing regulatory burden? Will the Government at last repeal burdensome ESG reporting requirements, including those requiring businesses to report on greenhouse gas emissions, non-financial information and sustainability statements?
Can the Minister also answer the following questions? First, the Government’s exclusions rest on a test of “no production, or production paused”. How does the Minister justify keeping specialist grades in scope when there is no UK-produced equivalent that can realistically be used, particularly in aerospace and defence, in which supplier certification takes years? Secondly, will the Government consider creating an expedited exemption or review process for businesses which can demonstrate that a product is unavailable from a UK producer in the required grade, form, quantity or certification standard? Thirdly, when will we see a genuinely durable steel strategy, one which addresses energy and carbon costs, investment, planning delays and regulatory burdens?
Finally, earlier today, there was an Urgent Question in the other place on the impacts of the steel tariffs on businesses in Northern Ireland. There is no domestic steel-making capacity in Northern Ireland, which means that many in Northern Ireland will feel they are being penalised without the benefits of protecting their own steel industry. Can the Minister confirm how affordable steel will continue to flow into Northern Ireland under these arrangements?
In summary, Britain needs a strong steel industry, but it also needs strong manufacturers, strong construction firms, strong defence supply chains and competitive exporters. The task for the Government is not to choose between upstream steel producers and downstream steel users—it is surely to ensure that both can survive.
Lord Mohammed of Tinsley (LD)
My Lords, as someone who has spent most of his life in Sheffield and South Yorkshire, I know that this issue is not an abstract discussion about tariffs and trade policies; it is about the future of communities that have made steel, engineering and manufacturing part of their identity for generations.
South Yorkshire has always been more than a producer of steel; it has been the place of innovation. Today, alongside our proud steel heritage, we are home to one of Europe’s leading advanced manufacturing clusters. The work taking place at Advanced Manufacturing Innovation District, around the Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre, demonstrates what modern British manufacturing can achieve. Global companies such as Rolls-Royce, Boeing, McLaren and many others have chosen to invest there because of the extraordinary skills, research and engineering excellence that exists in our region. That is precisely why getting these measures right matters.
I welcome the Government’s Statement and in particular the improvements they have made following engagement with the industry, as we heard earlier. Increasing tariff-free quota volumes and removing product codes where there is no domestic production are sensible changes, and Ministers deserve credit for listening. We on these Benches have consistently supported action to strengthen British steel-making. A resilient domestic steel industry is essential for our economy, our nation’s security and our industrial future.
We also recognise the pressures created by global overcapacity and unfair competition. But if there is one lesson that Sheffield has taught us all over the decades, it is that our steel industry and our manufacturing succeed together. One cannot thrive if the other is weakened. The difficulty with these measures is the question of domestic non-availability. Many manufacturers in aerospace, defence, energy and precision engineering require highly specialised grades of stainless bar and cold finished bars that are simply not produced in the United Kingdom at the required grades, specifications, dimensions and commercially viable volumes. These businesses are not choosing to import because they are cheaper; they are importing because no British alternative is available.
My Lib Dem colleagues argued in the other place last week that downstream manufacturing supports around 300,000 jobs, compared to approximately 30,000 jobs in primary steel-making. We must therefore ensure that policies intended to protect one part of our industrial base do not inadvertently damage another that employs 10 times more people. In South Yorkshire, we understand those connections better than most. A component manufactured in Sheffield may end up in an aircraft engine, a Formula 1 car, a defence system or an offshore energy project. Those supply chains are complex, highly regulated and internationally integrated. Changing suppliers is not something that happens over a weekend, as we heard earlier; it requires years of qualification, testing and certification. For many firms, there is simply no immediate substitute.
I really hope that the Minister can provide reassurance that the remaining product categories, particularly categories 14 and 27, have genuinely been assessed against the reality of domestic supply, rather than simply the theoretical possibilities of production.
I also remain concerned about businesses that, as we heard earlier, entered contracts after March but before the final details were announced, only days before implementation. Manufacturers need certainty. Investment decisions are made over years and not weeks.
Finally, as the Government begin negotiations in the WTO Article 28 process, I hope they will retain a simple guiding principle: where specialist steel cannot be sourced domestically, permanent tariff barriers serve only to increase costs for British manufacturers without creating new British production. Sheffield’s history teaches us that British steel manufacturing succeeds through innovation, skills and partnership, not artificial shortages. Let us support British steel and British manufacturing, and above all, let us all ensure that industrial policy recognises that these sectors are partners in our nation’s success, not competitors for government support.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business and Trade (Lord Leong) (Lab)
First, I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Mohammed of Tinsley, to his place and thank him for everything he has done so far for Sheffield Forgemasters. I thank both noble Lords for their contributions.
Let me begin with first principles. The United Kingdom needs a strong and resilient steel sector, both producers and downstream manufacturers. Steel is not simply another commodity; it is the backbone of our manufacturing economy, our defence capability, our critical national infrastructure and our economic security. A country that cannot make steel is a country that becomes increasingly dependent on others for some of its most strategic needs. Yet our steel industry faces an existential challenge. Fifty years ago, the United Kingdom produced 27 million tonnes of steel a year. Even as recently as 2010, we produced 12 million tonnes. By 2024, that had fallen to just 4 million tonnes, meeting around only 30% of our domestic demand. No responsible Government can simply stand by and accept that decline. That is why we are committed to doing two things in tandem.
First, we published our steel strategy on 19 March. It addresses the structural challenges facing the sector and is backed by up to £2.5 billion of government investment, alongside the £500 million already committed to Port Talbot, which I hope the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, will appreciate. In response to the noble Lord’s point about electricity, the Government also provide meaningful support through the British industry’s supercharger, helping to reduce electricity costs for this energy-intensive industry and strengthening its long-term competitiveness. Secondly, we committed to introducing robust new steel trade measures to safeguard domestic steel production and protect our ability to produce steel for defence, critical national infrastructure and the industries of the future.
Today, I have addressed that second commitment. I think every noble Lord recognises the scale of the challenge facing steel producers across the world. Global overcapacity, opaque state subsidies and artificially depressed prices mean that British steelmakers are not competing on a level playing field. For the past eight years, UK producers have benefited from the steel safeguard inherited from the European Union. That safeguard, introduced by the previous Government, provided an important degree of protection through quotas and a 25% out-quota tariff. But despite those measures, UK steel production continued to decline. We have now reached a critical point. Under WTO rules, the safeguard legally expires today and cannot be extended beyond eight years. The same rules apply to the European Union. Had we simply allowed those protections to lapse without replacement, UK steel production would have lost all meaningful protection overnight.
Doing nothing was never an option. Indeed, at precisely the moment when Canada, the United States and the European Union have all strengthened their own trade defences, failure to act would have left the United Kingdom exposed as one of the few major open markets in the world. We would quickly have become the destination of supply steel diverted from global markets. The consequences would have been profound. It would not simply have weakened our steel industry; it would have threatened its very survival.
That is why the Government have acted. From tomorrow, a new tariff rate quota regime will come into force. It introduces a 50% out-quota tariff while protecting only those categories of steel that are made or have the realistic potential to be made in the United Kingdom. We have always been clear that these measures must work not only for steel producers but for the manufacturers who rely on steel every day. That is why we have listened carefully to industry. Following extensive engagement, we have increased the volume of tariff-free quotas to 3.2 million metric tonnes—an increase of more than 560,000 tonnes compared to our provisional proposal, representing a significant 21% uplift. Nearly three-quarters of UK steel imports by value, and more than half by volume, remain outside the scope of these measures altogether.
We recognise that British manufacturers sometimes need specialist grades of steel that are simply not available from domestic producers. The quotas have therefore been carefully designed to ensure that those imports can continue without unnecessary additional costs. We have introduced transitional arrangements, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for contracts agreed before 14 March and imported between 1 July and 30 September. We will review the operation of these measures after 12 months, monitoring their impact from day one.
We have worked intensively with the European Union. Given our deeply integrated supply chains, we have reciprocal arrangements that provide greater certainty for the UK-EU steel trade from tomorrow, while discussions continue on the longer-term partnership. We remain committed to working constructively with our international partners to address the root cause of the challenge of global overcapacity.
Some have questioned whether the measure is necessary. I simply ask them: do they believe that the United Kingdom should continue to have a sovereign steel industry? If the answer is yes, they must also explain how they would protect it from the flood of cheap, heavily subsidised steel created by global overcapacity. It is simply not credible to support British steel in principle while opposing every measure that is needed to preserve it. Our tariff and quota measures are not about protectionism; they are about fairness. They will ensure that British producers are not undercut by unfair trader imports and prevent the United Kingdom becoming a dumping ground for surplus steel.
Without action, thousands of highly skilled jobs, strategically important in the capabilities and future of steel communities across our country, would be placed at risk. There are those who argue that the market alone should decide and that we should simply buy the cheapest steel available, wherever it comes from, but we know how that story ends: we buy cheap today, domestic production declines tomorrow, the steelworks close, skills disappear and communities suffer. Then, when international markets tighten or geopolitical tensions rise, we suddenly discover that we have surrendered our sovereign capability and have nowhere else to turn. We have seen the consequences of allowing strategic industries to decline before. Communities across our country are still living with those consequences today. The Government are simply not prepared to repeat those mistakes.
The Government have made their choice: we choose to stand with British steel workers, manufacturers and communities whose livelihoods depend on this vital industry. We choose to defend our sovereign steel-making capability, because we understand that steel is not simply another sector of the economy; it is a strategic, tangible and national asset. These measures are fair, proportionate and necessary. They strike the right balance between protecting domestic producers and ensuring that downstream manufacturers have access to the steel they need to grow. Above all, they send a clear message that the Government will not allow the United Kingdom to become a dumping ground for surplus steel, nor will we stand by while our strategically important British industry is allowed to decline. We are backing British steel, protecting British jobs and safeguarding an industry that will remain fundamental to our country’s prosperity, resilience and security for generations to come.
Before I sit down, I will address the technical questions the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, asked about how the measure will operate and the impact on sectors and businesses. Noble Lords will be aware that the measure will be reviewed in 12 months, and the Government will look at many of the issues the noble Lord raised and make necessary changes. However, I confirm that we will remain responsive to any significant changes in circumstances. While we want to provide the industry with as much predictability and certainty as possible, we reserve the right to intervene before the 12-month review if there is a serious and material change in market conditions and domestic supply.
The noble Lord also asked how the Statement will impact Northern Ireland. Specific arrangements are in place. These include specific tariff rate quotas from the EU, and facilitations to protect steel of UK origin moving within the UK from incurring duty. HMRC has confirmed these arrangements to industry, and more information will be available on GOV.UK tomorrow.
Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)
I join the Minister in welcoming the noble Lord, Lord Mohammed, to the Liberal Democrat Front Bench. It is so helpful to have someone with such experience of the steel industry participating in our debates.
I welcome some of the assurances that the Minister has given, but one of the questions I raised I would like him to focus on for a few moments: the growing regulatory burden faced by our steel industry. I join with him in saying that of course Britain needs a strong steel industry: it is part of our past and it must be part of our future. However, there are many signs that the growing regulatory burden is hampering growth in the sector, particularly the burdensome ESG reporting requirements, including those requiring businesses to report on greenhouse gas emissions, non-financial information and sustainability statements. He did not have time to deal with my question. Before I move on to the other questions, it would be helpful if he could address the growing regulatory burden faced by our industry.
Lord Leong (Lab)
I thank the noble Lord. Ministers, colleagues and officials from the department have regular meetings with the sector, with producers and downstream users through an arrangement of sector councils and all that. We regularly get feedback from them. If any such requirements do hamper, we will take note of that, but so far, we have heard nothing from downstream users or producers. In respect of our international obligations, whether it is CBAM, ETS or whatever, we are a country that complies with international regulations. We have set out our case as far as CBAM and ETS are concerned and will continue to do so.
Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)
Sorry. I am perfectly happy to give way to Back-Benchers if anyone wishes to intervene.
Baroness Donaghy (Lab)
My Lords, it seems to me that the announcement made today was essential. The Government would have come in for criticism had they not put forward such a Statement.
Is it consistent with the contents of the steel Bill, for which we have done the first day of Committee and are about to have day 2. I am assuming that everything that has been said today is consistent with the Bill that is going through. Clearly, there will have to be other announcements made as and when we see what is needed to support the industries. There must be some unknowns in all of this. If the Minister has any indication of when we might know the end of the passing of the steel Bill, that would be helpful.
Lord Leong (Lab)
I thank my noble friend for those points. First, let me say something about the Steel Industry (Nationalisation) Bill that is going through this House. That Bill gives us a framework to acquire any steel undertaking in the public interest. Once we do acquire, in the public interest, that aligns with our overall steel strategy, which is to support our domestic supply of steel. That is precisely what we are doing, to increase domestic supply, which is currently 30%, to as much as 50%.
Lord Katz (Lab)
My Lords, as noble Lords will be aware, we are now on the Back-Bench section of questions to the Minister on the Statement. As there do not seem to be any more Back-Benchers wishing to ask questions, and we are still waiting for the full complement of Front-Benchers to continue with next business, I suggest we adjourn briefly to a time to be announced on the annunciator.
National Security (State Threats) Bill
(1 day, 4 hours ago)
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Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the officials of the House for the speedy turnaround of the amended Bill. It is a tribute to their dexterity that we have managed to turn this round much quicker than I expected, and our thanks go to them. I thank the officials in the Home Office and all the people behind the Bill who have given advice and support to Ministers on this crucial issue, including the security services and others. I particularly thank my private office, the Bill manager and the Bill team, and all the officials who are here.
I thank the Official Opposition for their courtesy, intensive scrutiny of the Bill and alternative suggestions. I say that to them genuinely, as well as to the noble Lord, Lord Marks, and the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, on behalf of the Liberal Democrats, and to other colleagues who have spoken, particularly in this case the noble Lords, Lord Anderson and Lord Alton, who have been very engaged with this Bill.
This Bill has been done for a purpose, which is to allow my right honourable friend the Secretary of State to have the necessary powers to consider how best to act after the determination of state threats. The Bill, as amended, will now return to the House of Commons where it will be further scrutinised, and where I am confident the amendments made in this House will be accepted. I hope that the Bill will then go for speedy consideration for Royal Assent. On Royal Assent, I assure the House that the Home Secretary will take urgent action to examine state threats and, if necessary, bring forward appropriate measures as soon as possible.
It has been a pleasure to take this Bill through the House over two days. There have been some tensions and discussions, but I hope that, at the end of the day, we are agreed as one that the Bill will be a useful tool for the Secretary of State to help protect this country and its citizens from state threats. I beg to move that the Bill do now pass.
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)
My Lords, from these Benches, I reiterate the thanks of all of us to the Minister and his team, both in the House and in the Home Office, and his Bill team generally, for the enormous help that we have had and for engaging with us. From our point of view, we have achieved some significant improvements to the Bill. We believe that the purpose of Bill, of which the noble Lord spoke, has been achieved with great speed and, generally speaking, in good humour. We are therefore happy that the Bill do now pass.
Lord Cameron of Lochiel (Con)
My Lords, I echo the thanks given by the Minister to the officials of the House for their actions this evening in moving us so quickly to this point. I thank the Minister for, as ever, a courteous, sometimes robust, debate across the Dispatch Box. We have had two intense days debating this Bill. As I said last week, these Benches have always supported the principles of the Bill and supported its passage through Parliament. There are some unfinished areas to which the Minister alluded. We hope to return to those in due course when a new Bill—a wider national security Bill—comes before Parliament. With those brief comments, I too hope that this Bill do now pass.
Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
My Lords, from the Cross Benches, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Anderson of Ipswich, myself and my other noble friends, we too would echo the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Lochiel, and of the noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, in thanking the Minister for engaging with us. He has been willing to have long private discussions outside of the House to try to find a way forward, to do what he has rightly said is the aim and objective of everyone in this House: to do everything we can to enhance the security of this country against the many threats that we face.
Going forward to the new Bill, which I am sure will already be in preparation, I hope that we will have learned one or two things from this experience. I know that the Minister shares my passion for good governance and pre-legislative scrutiny, for the involvement of Select Committees and for the chance to adequately debate measures as and when they come to the House. I thank him for his courtesy. It is always a pleasure to work with a Minister who not only knows his subject but is passionate about it. We thank him for that and, indeed, his team of officials as well.