Oral Answers to Questions

Nic Dakin Excerpts

Monday 1st September 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The figure the hon. Lady did not give is that out-of-work housing benefit claims are falling, and that is because people who were claiming it are now going into work. That means that they are earning more money, which means that the likelihood of their being in poverty is far less. I wonder whether the hon. Lady would like to get up sometime and congratulate us on getting more people back to work and spending less on housing benefit as a result.

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

10. What recent discussions he has had with representatives of local authorities on transition plans relating to the closure of the independent living fund.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Mr Mark Harper)]

The Department continues to work closely with the independent living fund, and just last week I met the chief executive and chairman of the board of trustees. The independent living fund continues to work closely with all local authorities in England and the devolved Administrations in Scotland and Wales.

[Nic Dakin]

North Lincolnshire council tells me that it has insufficient information about the transfer to engage properly with recipients of the ILF to give them a better sense of their future. The Government have consistently failed to give assurances that the changes will not mean that recipients lose their independence. Will the Minister give that assurance today?

[Mr Harper]

I am surprised by the hon. Gentleman’s comments about his local authority, because the information provided to me is that local authorities actively engage with the ILF: they have attended more than 90% of the meetings with users. The hon. Gentleman will also know that the Government are fully funding local authorities and the Scottish and Welsh Administrations for the amount of money that would be provided to people under the ILF. If he has specific concerns, he and I should have a conversation.

Oral Answers to Questions

Nic Dakin Excerpts

Monday 23rd June 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Mike Penning)]

I think the whole House would agree that we need to give everyone the opportunity to live their dreams and have their aspirations, and that is exactly what this Government want to do. I would love to come and see the scheme that my hon. Friend is talking about, so that I can see for myself what it is delivering.

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

T2. In last week’s Westminster Hall debate, the Minister said of the closure of the independent living fund that “there really should not be concern.”—[Official Report, 18 June 2014; Vol. 582, c. 91WH.] How will he ensure that the concern being expressed by current ILF recipients that they will lose their independence is unfounded?

[Mike Penning]

I also said during that Westminster Hall debate that, for nearly three years, new recipients of ILF have been dealt with by local authorities. There have not been any major problems. We are confident that this will roll out correctly and we intend to roll it out as soon as possible.

Independent Living Fund Recipients

Nic Dakin Excerpts

Wednesday 18th June 2014 Westminster Hall

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

The independent living fund has transformed people’s lives. The ILF does exactly what it says on the tin: it liberates people who would otherwise not be able to live independently. It lets them make choices about how they live, things we often take for granted—when to get up or go to bed, what and when to eat. It allows them to work, to be active in the community and to live in their own homes. I challenge the Minister to guarantee to those in receipt of ILF that they will not become less independent as a result of his Government’s decision to close the fund in June 2015. That is what people fear; that is what they are frightened of—they fear losing their jobs, the staff whom they employ to support them and their independence. They fear being forced out of their homes and into institutions.

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

As my hon. Friend might be aware, in Wales the responsibility will go to the Assembly and then to local authorities. I have approached my authority, and it is uncertain what exactly is happening. There is a lot of fear out there among people who are totally reliant on the ILF payment to lead as normal a life as possible. They are being hurt now.

[Nic Dakin]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. The Minister might well say that he is passing the moneys and the responsibility to local authorities—through the Welsh Assembly in Wales’s case—but that will not ease people’s fears.

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[John Robertson (in the Chair)]

Order. Opposition spokesmen are not allowed to take part in a half-hour debate, whether intervening or making speeches.

[Nic Dakin]

Thank you, Mr Robertson, but it is important to recognise the number of Members present wanting to take part. I very much welcome that.

The Minister is a good Minister, and I am sure that he is not naive enough to believe that passing responsibility to local authorities absolves him of the responsibility for the decision. I am afraid that he will not get away with devolving responsibility and blame for the consequences of the decision to others.

[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on bringing this important debate to Westminster Hall. Does he agree that the dignity, the independence and the human rights of disabled people who need that high level of support can only be met by the continuation of the ILF?

[Nic Dakin]

I agree with my hon. Friend, which is why I am asking the Minister for guarantees that people’s independence will not be compromised under any future arrangements.

Disabled People Against Cuts calculates the existing annual cost of support at around £288 million, and yet the Government have only identified £262 million to transfer to local authorities. That discrepancy is not a good start. The Government are giving no reassurance that that money will be ring-fenced to spend only on support for disabled people to live independently, rather than be absorbed into broader council budgets.

[Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)]

Does the hon. Gentleman think that the structure in which the funding is delivered is more important than the services being delivered?

[Nic Dakin]

Absolutely. It is the services that matter, but any change in structure needs to guarantee people’s independence in future. Tinkering with structures and risking people’s futures is not something that anyone can do at the drop of a hat. I very much agree that what matters is services, not structure, but why change the structure if it is delivering, creating all the uncertainty and concern that is around?

According to Scope, £2.68 billion has been cut from adult social care budgets in the past three years alone, equating to 20% of net spending. That is happening when the number of working-age disabled people needing care is projected to rise by 9.2% between 2010 and 2020. In a recent survey, 40% of disabled people reported that social care services already fail to meet their basic needs, such as washing, dressing or getting out of the house, and 47% of respondents said that the services they received do not enable them to take part in community life. It is not surprising that people are desperately worried about their future.

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

rose—

[Barbara Keeley]

Thank you, Mr Robertson. I am glad that that is clear now.

My hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) is making an excellent speech on behalf of people who are worried about those vital resources, which will not be ring-fenced. Does he agree that there is an issue, as he has pointed out, about devolving to local authorities? My local authority is cash-strapped; 1,000 people will lose their care packages this year. Will the change not simply put a burden on unpaid family carers? Is that not a double burden, because people with the most difficult physical problems might be hard to lift and move—except by trained carers—which risks injury or fracture to them, as well to the carer doing the lifting?

[Nic Dakin]

My hon. Friend is right. She speaks with a lot of experience and insight into the issue, which she has campaigned on for a long while. She is right that the other group of people who might find themselves under significant pressure are the family carers of those now in receipt of ILF.

The worry, as my hon. Friend has indicated, is that the continued underfunding of social care will mean that the care system will simply not be able to support disabled people to live independently. The lack of reference to independent living in the definition of the well-being principle in the Care Act 2014, which local authorities will need to take into account when providing care, further fuels that anxiety.

[Emily Thornberry]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Nic Dakin]

I happily give way to my hon. Friend.

[Emily Thornberry]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. The point that I wanted to make is that, in Islington, 100 people are dependent on ILF. Although the local authority has undertaken to continue that support next year for those currently in receipt of ILF, the authority cannot give any guarantee that that funding will go on in future, in particular given that Islington council is facing 40% cuts over the year. Discretionary funding such as for independent living will be difficult to find.

[Nic Dakin]

My hon. Friend is right. Interestingly, we have cases coming in from all parts of the United Kingdom, which illustrate that the issue is deep-seated in all our communities.

Not only are people in receipt of ILF worried, but their friends, carers and families are too. The cases of two of my constituents illustrate that well. Ashley Harrison, for example, is a Scunthorpe United fan, like me cheering on the Iron at Glanford Park. At 10 months old, he was diagnosed with cerebral palsy; he will turn 30 this year. Ashley has lived in his own bungalow since 2006. The ILF allows him to employ his own team of carers. Ashley is an inspirational man, a fighter, but he is worried about the control over his future being taken away from him. His mother says:

“The closure of the ILF would be nothing less than devastating for us as a family. Since Ashley was awarded his ILF allowance the whole family’s lives have changed for the better. ILF understands Ashley’s needs and always do everything they can to constantly improve Ashley’s life and enable him to live independently.

As a family naturally all we have ever wanted is the best for Ashley, which the ILF has helped us achieve. The ILF has always seemed to be the leading and positive force at meetings ensuring that social services match and meet Ashley’s needs. Without the ILF we all face a very uncertain future. The uncertainty that Ashley faced in his early years prior to receiving his ILF award have been daunting, frustrating and of course a constant battle with social services.

The alleged ‘smooth transfer’ over to social services is already proving to be nothing of the sort. Each and every meeting we hold (which are incredibly frequent) leave us having to justify Ashley’s needs as a disabled person. The assessments they ask us to complete are totally unsuitable for the severely disabled.

All of the disabled people living independently with the help of ILF are living their lives to the full. The fear is that if ILF closes these people will lose their human rights and dignity to live their lives as they should.

As a mother who has fought the last 30 years for Ashley to have the life he wants and of course deserves, I dread to think what the next generation of disabled people will have to endure without the positive support of the ILF.

I beg you to listen to myself as a mother of a disabled son and also listen to all those disabled voices who deserve to be heard.

Give each and every person the ability to live and achieve their dreams just as you and I can.

The Paralympics just proves how amazing disabled people can be!”

[Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)]

I am sure everyone will be moved by that testimony. It is an irony that, in my constituency, some recipients of ILF are among the most active people in the community, whether they are working, doing sport in the community or promoting disability rights. Debbie Domb and Kevin Caulfield are two of the most active people in my constituency, and they do a lot of positive good. The removal of ILF will be bad not just for them, but for my community as a whole.

[Nic Dakin]

I absolutely agree.

Let me move on to my second constituent, Jon Clayton, who illustrates what my hon. Friend said. He also receives ILF. Like Ashley, he employs carers who understand his disability. His sister writes:

“My brother Jon is quadriplegic, having been involved in an accident which was not his fault at the age of 18. He is now 54.

He is one of life’s truly inspirational people; an accomplished mouth artist—a gift he only knew he had after his life changing accident—living independently in his own home. He freely gives his time mentoring other disabled persons, helping them come to terms with another life. A life without limbs. A life without walking.

He has always sought to live as normal a life as possible. Having gone through marriage, divorce, being a step father, losing a partner.

He is both ordinary and extraordinary.

He relies heavily on his full time carers. Carers who he personally has ensured are trained to an appropriate and exceptional level to look after a person with specific and defined needs. One false move and he could (and has) spent 18 months bed bound with a pressure sore at the expense of some ill trained nurse.

His carers are trusted to ensure and give a high level of care, entrusted with the most personal of tasks from catheter changing, toileting, dressing…This has been part of Jon’s life since his accident. Something he has taken on with humour and dignity.

If the ILF is removed Jon will be unable to live independently. Being able to engage in what you and I would consider a normal life. He will be unable to travel, have holidays, visit family, visit friends.

The ILF has enabled independence. Given life, where life seemed over.

I would therefore urge you to do all you can to prevent this life enabling function—the ILF—from being eroded.”

[Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend think it is a disgrace that, last month, when people such as his constituent turned up at Tothill street, the doors of the Department for Work and Pensions were locked against them? Those people simply wanted to hand a letter in to the Minister’s office, but no one was available, and I had to take the letter in by the back door.

[Nic Dakin]

I am sure all those who turned up to present the letter will want to thank my hon. Friend for carrying out that duty on their behalf. Obviously, it would have been much better had they been able to access the Department themselves, and I am sure the Minister and his colleagues will reflect on that. Sometimes these things happen, sadly, but the Minister has heard my hon. Friend’s concern, and I am sure he will want to address it.

A fundamental concern for Jon, Ashley and others is whether they will be able to employ their specialist staff in future. The question was raised with North Lincolnshire council, which responded on 9 June 2014 with these words, which are rather bureaucratic:

“We appreciate this situation may cause you concern as an existing Independent Living Fund customer and would wish to reduce any worry or anxiety you may have.

Allocation of future monies will be based on your updated assessment and support plan and on future Local Authority funding so at this stage we cannot give any specific guidance on the amount of monies that you may receive from us or cannot give guarantees on the future employment status of any Personal Assistants you may currently employ.”

As hon. Members can imagine, such “reassurances” serve only to heighten anxiety and build mistrust.

I return to my central question: will the Government guarantee that Ashley, Jon and all those currently receiving ILF will not lose their independence as a result of the Government’s decision to close the fund? I believe that that decision is aimed at saving money, but it might end up costing far more in other budget areas, such as health.

A better way forward would be for the Government to engage with ILF recipients—they clearly had an opportunity to do so recently when my hon. Friend the Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) went with recipients to the DWP—to learn from their experience and to find ways of shaping future services that are cost-effective, but that continue to deliver true independence.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that another profoundly worrying aspect is that the coalition Government have been in situ for four years? The worry he describes has been expressed by my constituents Rosemary and David Burslem for four years, but it is still unresolved. What we are seeing from the Government is a hospital pass to other people, who will have to make the difficult decisions the Government have deliberately left for four years and have now misjudged.

[Nic Dakin]

That is why I keep repeating my question to the Minister. This is happening on his watch; he is a good Minister, and he is a man who, I believe, cares, but he cannot wash his hands, like Pontius Pilate, of the future of these individuals. He needs to nail his colours to the mast, and today he has an opportunity to do that by guaranteeing that, as a result of the Government’s decision, there will be no detriment to people currently receiving ILF. My hon. Friend is right to emphasise that people have been living with this worry and concern for the past four years, which has affected the health and well-being not only of ILF recipients, but their families, friends and carers.

[Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend is making a powerful case on behalf of all users of the ILF. Does he agree that it is not surprising they are concerned about the impact of the closure, given that the Department’s own equality impact assessment says it will be for individual local authorities

“to determine how to allocate the funding transferred to them…This is likely to have an adverse effect on ILF users because of monetary reductions in the amount of support a person receives and because of changes in how that support is delivered”?

When the Government’s own equality impact assessment tells them the closure will have that impact, they must surely respond.

[Nic Dakin]

That is deeply worrying, as my hon. Friend says. That is why it is good the Minister has the opportunity today to give people those guarantees and reassurances and to address the concerns raised by the Government’s own impact assessment.

Disabled People Against Cuts points out that, for the 17,500 people in receipt of ILF,

“the closure of the Fund will have a devastating impact on the lives on these individuals and their families. It also has a much wider significance because at the heart of this is the fundamental question of disabled people’s place in society: do we want a society that keeps its disabled citizens out of sight, prisoners in their own homes or locked away in institutions, surviving not living or do we want a society that enables disabled people to participate, contribute and enjoy the opportunities, choice and control that non-disabled people”—

like us—“take for granted?”

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the ILF has proved to be a source of social and economic emancipation on an extra-statutory basis? No other scheme delivered by government—local or otherwise—could do that. The ILF has developed a specialism, an insight and a sensitivity that cannot be replaced by anything else.

[Nic Dakin]

That is an excellent point; the support provided by the specialists who understand the area of work has been transformational. The independent living fund was a visionary way forward for disabled people. It would be worse than a sadness—it would be a tragedy for us all—if the Government, in pursuit of micro-benefits, were to lose for society a macro-benefit. We cannot wash our hands of what happens, and that is why we are here today, arguing on behalf of disabled people and the recipients of the ILF. Let us consider the words of Mahatma Ghandi:

“The greatness of a nation can be judged by how it treats its weakest members.”

People like Jon and Ashley are not weak but strong; but the ILF gives them independence, and liberates their strengths. Now is the Minister’s opportunity to guarantee that their future independence will not be compromised by the closure of the ILF.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Mike Penning)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning, Mr Robertson. I congratulate the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) on securing, and colleagues on taking the time to take part in, this short debate. I suppose that most people will know me by now, and know that I will answer questions as directly as possible; where I cannot answer I will, obviously, write back.

Can I guarantee that no one in receipt of ILF money today will be adversely affected by the changes that we are going to make? No, I cannot, and no Minister of any colour or persuasion could. I want to highlight one point: in July 2010 the scheme closed to new entries. People who have needed the sort of support that ILF has been giving since 1988 have, since 2010, been getting it from local authorities. The hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) made a point about waiting four years. One of the reasons was the delay when we were taken to court—and it is a democratic right for that to happen. The court made a decision, interestingly enough, not on what we were doing, but on process—on whether there was enough evidence that we had taken the Equality Act 2010 into consideration. I was appointed to my present portfolio almost in the same week.

My hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) asked whether the issue was about process and who was delivering the help, or about whether we can get the help to the people who deserve it, such as the constituents of the hon. Member for Scunthorpe, and others whom I met in my constituency last night, who talked pragmatically about the future of ILF, and how the scheme will work. Most—nearly all, I think—local authorities are now in the transitional process with us. Following the court ruling, once I announced my decision that we would be going ahead—it appears I may be challenged on that as well—I looked specifically at the process, not at the decision that had already been made. In 2015, we will be transferring all the funding—it is not a cut—that was in ILF.

[Nic Dakin]

rose—

[Mike Penning]

Bear with me: I am very short of time and I did a deal with the hon. Gentleman before we started that I would take less time so that other hon. Members could intervene. If the hon. Gentleman intervenes on me now, it will make it difficult. I am more than happy to write to him on any issue if he wants me to.

I understand fully people’s concerns about the change in practice; those concerns arise with any change affecting any benefit, but there really should not be concern. The people who now deliver the care to people in the community are exactly the same as those who will deliver the version of the ILF that is provided in the future. All that I can try to do is ensure that we monitor what happens as carefully as possible, to see that people’s rights and needs are met as the scheme is transferred out. It is important that none of us underestimates the skill and dedication of the people who go out to do the reviews. I have a team in London. Obviously a certain salami-slicing goes on; we want to try to get that money down and into the system, so there are the same people doing assessments. Will some of those assessments have to be tweaked, over a period of time? Absolutely, they will be, and we will help. We will give as much assistance as we can with that.

I want to touch on what the hon. Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) said about the delegation to the Department for Work and Pensions. I am sure that it was peaceful, well-mannered and nice, but that is not always the case. If the hon. Lady looks at the side of the building she will see that paint has been thrown over it, and there have been nasty incidents outside. If she wants to come to see me privately I shall talk about that. That is why the security people were there: we do not know what will happen until people turn up. If I had been there, I would have met the hon. Lady. She knows my door is always open. I have seen her, and if she wants me in future to meet a group of the people who were with her, I shall be more than happy to do that, but there have been nasty incidents and the security situation is understandable. The hon. Lady frowns at me, but those things have happened—she just needs to take a look at the side of the building.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mike Penning]

No. I completely do not agree with that logic. I know where the hon. Gentleman is coming from. [Interruption.] He can shake his head as much as he likes, but I am always honest and straight. Do I agree with him? No, I do not, and the reason is that those people are already being helped. Those who were in the scheme, who have come in since July 2010, are already being helped by the money that is in the local authority part, not by the money that is coming across from us. The money that is coming across with the ILF is the funding that sits with the ILF now. That is how it is, and we may have to disagree. If I am wrong factually, I shall write to the hon. Gentleman and tell him.

[Nic Dakin]

Will the Minister ring-fence that money, then?

[Mike Penning]

I do not have powers to ring-fence it, and we have had such debates before. It was a Treasury decision not to ring-fence money that is to go down to local authorities in that way. I am bound by that, and I agree with that.

An important point is that we are not just going to give the money to local authorities and say, “That local authority is doing really well, but we know that one is doing really badly, and we are just going to let it get on and do that.” As the disabilities Minister, I will want to publish a league table showing how it is being done, and which local authorities are good.

Oral Answers to Questions

Nic Dakin Excerpts

Thursday 13th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Grant]

Indeed, the issue has been raised by colleagues in the Foreign Office, but we will of course continue to encourage the Qatari authorities and other interested parties to do more. We need to make progress on improving the living and working conditions of migrant labourers. Of course, we stand ready to support those efforts where we can.

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

12. What information her Department holds on the number of local newspapers that have closed since May 2010; and what steps she plans to take to support such newspapers.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)]

The Department does not hold that information, but our local press plays an incredibly valuable role in local communities, and we appreciate the challenges facing the sector. We have a number of policies to support local newspapers.

[Nic Dakin]

I thank the Minister for his answer. Does he have a view on the number of local papers that have, like the excellent Scunthorpe Telegraph, since May 2010 moved from being daily newspapers serving their community to being weekly newspapers serving their community? What impact does that have on communities?

[Mr Vaizey]

I understand that the Scunthorpe Telegraph has made that move and that, as a result, its circulation has gradually risen by a small amount. The Government have restricted the amount of local papers that councils can put out, relaxed media ownership rules, and continued to have statutory notices in local papers, so we do want to support local papers where we can.

Oral Answers to Questions

Nic Dakin Excerpts

Thursday 30th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Vaizey]

My hon. Friend rightly raises that issue regularly. The Government work with Ofcom and BT Openreach to ensure that the highest standards are maintained. There are occasional problems, which we work on, but BT did a good job over Christmas and new year during the floods.

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

How can the Minister support my constituents who have contacted me this week, such as those from the village of Messingham, who cannot get the full benefit of broadband because it is not adequate?

[Mr Vaizey]

We are putting £500 million into broadband. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State pointed out in her answer to the Opposition spokesman, Labour councillors up and down the country are applauding our fantastic work. I am sure the hon. Gentleman would want to join them in applauding us on how quickly the roll-out programme is going.

Oral Answers to Questions

Nic Dakin Excerpts

Monday 13th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Steve Webb]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her question. We have expanded the scope of the budgeting loans scheme to include funeral costs, which were not previously eligible. If someone is short of cash to meet funeral costs, they can borrow money through the social fund if they are eligible for a budgeting loan, as well as applying for the grant that we pay, which averages £1,200.

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

16. What assessment he has made of the effect of the under-occupancy penalty on household incomes.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

The average weekly reduction in housing benefit resulting from this measure is £14.50. However, two thirds of those affected experience weekly reductions of less than that, and the average weekly loss for those who have moved off benefit as a result of this policy is £8.

[Nic Dakin]

When I visited the Scunthorpe food bank recently, the excellent volunteers there reported a significant increase in the numbers of people using the food bank. When I asked them why that was, they chorused in unison: “The bedroom tax.” When are this Government going to do a proper evaluation of the damage the bedroom tax is doing to hard-working families?

[Esther McVey]

I, too, praise the local community, the voluntary groups, the Trussell Trust and the Churches that are helping people through the food banks, but I do not agree that we can draw an analogy between what is happening there and our attempt to get fairness through changes to the spare room subsidy. What about those people who are in overcrowded homes? What about those people who are on a waiting list? How do we support everybody in this way? Labour shirked dealing with this problem, and it is a very difficult issue to get right. Labour shirked it but we are dealing with it.

Housing Benefit

Nic Dakin Excerpts

Tuesday 12th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

North Lincolnshire Homes is a social housing provider for my constituency, and I wish to share some of its observations about this tax, which is bad in principle and bad in practice. First, it told me that the worst aspect of the tax is that it is retrospective and that 95% of the problem flows from its retrospective nature. There are not enough smaller properties for affected households to downsize to in our area. North Lincolnshire Homes has about 10,000 homes, with 1,500 households affected by the tax. If it were to move them to properties that became available, it would take six years to move all the households affected.

Some people are already moving into more expensive private rented properties to escape the bedroom tax. Oddly, a two-bedroom property in north Lincolnshire can rent for £92.41 and rent on a typical three-bedroom property is £78.35, so the £92.41 will be paid by housing benefit when people have moved into the private sector, rather than the other way round. The impact of this tax on the public purse is thus absurd. People are falling into arrears. Rent arrears among the 1,500 affected households have increased by about £150,000 since April. The policy is not working financially and it is not working for the people in my constituency who are suffering as a result.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Barnardo’s today expressed grave concern about the effect that the bedroom tax is having on families and, in particular, on children. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that families and children are experiencing worse times because of the tax?

[Nic Dakin]

Many people have given examples of how families are being affected. Carers, people with disabilities and people who have access to their children overnight for short periods are all being affected. All Members on the Opposition Benches have had those people coming to our surgeries, so while listening to the contributions from many Government Members, I wondered whether they live in the same country as us. I really do not know the answer.

North Lincolnshire Homes is having to spend £200,000 a year on providing additional help to try to get people to move. That is an additional cost, and the money would be better spent on building new houses better to address the problem. North Lincolnshire Homes has seen a 150% increase in the number of properties that it is struggling to let, with many larger properties lying empty. These are the economics of the madhouse—it does not make any sense at all.

Let me highlight the case of one constituent to illustrate again, through a story, how the tax impacts on individuals. Richard lives in a three-bedroom house and has suffered a severe stroke. He is completely wheelchair-bound, has lost the use of the left side of his body and is without speech. His only means of communication are his laptop and text messages. In late 2012, £30,000 of public money was spent on converting his house to meet his needs, including a full wet room and a downstairs living area. Since the introduction of the bedroom tax in April 2013, he no longer receives full housing benefits to meet his rent and is struggling to make payments. He, like many others, has fallen into arrears. Adapting another property to meet his needs would involve a substantial cost. The situation is causing him massive stress and worry and contributing to his poor health.

I hope that the Minister is listening, as she appears to be. The sadness is that there are many Richards up and down this land who are suffering in the same way. I do not think it is proper for the situation to continue. Today has given people the opportunity to listen to the strength of the debate in this Chamber, which echoes the strength of feeling outside it, and for us to do something about the issue before it is too late.

Oral Answers to Questions

Nic Dakin Excerpts

Monday 1st July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hoban]

My hon. Friend rightly says that we need to find ways to help people with mental health conditions, and other conditions, back into employment—the work we do under the Work programme is part of that, but other interventions are also being made—because there is a strong link between work and good health outcomes.

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

23. Given today’s launch of Rethink’s Unfair WCA campaign, when will the Minister finally decide whether to implement the changes to the descriptors recommended over a year ago by the mental health charities?

[Mr Hoban]

Work is going on at the moment to test those descriptors, and we are working closely with the charities. Today also marks the launch of the call for evidence of the fourth independent review of the WCA, which recognises our commitment to improving on the system we inherited from the previous Government.

Work Capability Assessments

Nic Dakin Excerpts

Wednesday 12th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Sheila Gilmore]

That is exactly the point I am trying to convey. We want to improve the scheme and give people that confidence.

I was quite interested today to come across an online headline in the Daily Mail that said: “Record your builder to make sure he sticks to his word”. That was the recommendation from the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson). She was suggesting that that would help to resolve disagreements in those situations.

The pilot went ahead in Atos’s Newcastle assessment centre between March and May 2011, and an evaluation report was submitted to the DWP on 4 June 2011. In a Westminster Hall debate on 1 February 2012, the previous Minister, the right hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), set out the Government’s position. He said that owing to a lack of demand, audio recording would not be rolled out for all assessments. Specifically he said:

“We decided not to implement universal recording because, based on the trial experience, people did not want it.”—[Official Report, 1 February 2012; Vol. 539, c. 292WH.]

I am afraid that that assertion is not justified. The Atos pilot concluded that

“68% of customers agreed to the recording when contacted by telephone prior to the appointment.”

Owing to some claimants not turning up for their assessment, or eventually deciding that they did not want a recording, the figure for those whose assessments were recorded dropped to 46%. That figure is still substantial, however, and the demand for audio recordings is reflected in one of Atos’s key conclusions, which stated:

“Our recommendation would be that recording should be become routine as it is in a call centre or, for example, NHS Direct.”

Parliamentary questions and freedom of information requests have yielded another metric to defend the Government’s position—namely, that only 1% of the claimants in the pilot requested a copy of their recording. However, that cannot be regarded as an accurate reflection of demand, for two reasons. First, assessors in the pilot used hand-held devices and the recordings had to be transferred to computers and burnt to CDs after the assessments. That meant that claimants could not pick up their recording on the day but had to go to the added effort of making a request in writing. In effect, that required claimants to opt into the pilot and then opt in again to get their recording. We also do not know what the claimants thought the pilot was about. Often, when we phone helplines, we are told on a recorded message that the call will be recorded for staff training purposes. It is possible that the claimants in the pilot were not clear about its purpose.

Secondly, claimants were told that recordings would be of use to them only in the event of an appeal. Given that the report was completed just days after the pilot concluded, most of those involved would not yet have received a decision on their claim, let alone come to a view on whether they would appeal. Demand for copies might well have been higher had this metric been measured after a longer period. I therefore ask the Minister to accept that the number of claimants in the pilot who requested a copy of their recording is not an accurate reflection of demand, and that the number of people acquiescing to their assessment being recorded is a more appropriate metric to use.

Turning to what has happened in the two years since the pilot, I want to refer back to the statement given by the previous Minister in Westminster Hall on 1 February 2012. In addition to claiming that there had not been much demand for audio recordings, he said that

“we will offer everyone who wants it the opportunity to have their session recorded.”—[Official Report, 1 February 2012; Vol. 539, c. 291WH.]

In practice, however, it is hard for anyone to have an assessment recorded. The option to request recordings is not mentioned in the official DWP communications to claimants. I was reassured to see that the DWP website was updated last week, on 6 June, and that it now states that the Department and Atos are going to amend written communications. It states:

“We are working to introduce more widespread information for all claimants as soon as possible.”

However, it is now two years since the pilot, and the Department is still “working” to have this included in its communications. It does not seem to be too complicated a sentence to include in letters to claimants.

My right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) said in a debate on 4 September that even when requests are made, they are not always met because of a lack of equipment. A freedom of information response from 22 May this year indicated that Atos now has some 50 audio recording machines, but this is inadequate given that over 11,000 assessments are undertaken across the country every week. Another freedom of information request from 23 May suggests that this national roll-out may even be a temporary measure that will end later this year.

Will the Minister confirm when DWP communications will be able to inform claimants that they can have their assessment recorded? To how many audio recording devices does Atos now have access? Will he confirm whether the recordings currently taking place are part of a wider roll-out that is intended to be permanent or merely a further pilot?

The report from Professor Harrington in 2010 prompted the Newcastle pilot, and it is worth looking at what he has had to say on this issue since then. In his December 2012 report, which was his third and final one, he said:

“The pilot of audio recording of assessments has also been subject to much debate…The Review has seen little evidence from the DWP evaluation of the audio recording pilot of 2011 that the universal audio recording of assessments would improve their quality…further monitoring and evaluation work needs to be completed before a decision can be made.”

The Minister might like to interpret Harrington’s reference to “little evidence” as suggesting that audio recordings make no difference, but I would argue that what he was getting at was the inadequacy of the pilot commissioned and accepted by the DWP, which was why he called for more examination of the issue.

What the assessors did in this pilot was to take a small number of reports, review them in light of the recordings and conclude that they tallied with each other—that what the written report said and what the recording said were the same. Subsequently, to justify their policy, the main arguments from the Government have both highlighted and ignored the various metrics of demand mentioned in the report. Neither of those approaches answers the key question: do audio recordings improve the quality of assessments?

Instead, I would contend that the key performance indicator for the work capability assessment should be the proportion of decisions that are subsequently overturned on appeal. A more robust pilot would have involved taking larger samples of both recorded and unrecorded assessments and examining the proportion of successful appeals for both. If they were the same, it would have been fair to conclude the recordings make no difference; but if there were a smaller proportion of successful appeals from those that were recorded, it would be equally fair to conclude that they were worth while.

We need to be clear, too, whether the current roll-out is actually just another pilot still to be evaluated. If it is to be evaluated, it would be useful to know what is going to be evaluated. This has a relevance beyond the employment and support allowance because the DWP now says that it will make a decision about audio recording of personal independence payment assessments after the evaluation of the ESA experience. That is despite the fact that one of the companies tendering for that PIP assessment, Capita, originally offered to audio record all its assessments. Asking the right questions about what the evaluation is for is crucial.

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

Is it not important to test not only the impact on quality but the impact on the confidence of those assessed?

[Sheila Gilmore]

Indeed. As I think I said earlier, this may well answer some of the issues. If people are anxious about these assessments, their confidence would certainly be improved in this way. If, as some suggest, the assertions made by claimants are exaggerated, that would be established, too, and we would all be happier. We need to know—it is a bit unclear—whether we are going to re-run another pilot, whether what is going on is a pilot and, if so, how it is going to be evaluated.

In conclusion, I want to raise three sets of questions. First, will the Minister accept on the basis of how the pilot was carried out that requests for copies of audio recordings should not be cited as a reflection of demand, and does he accept that the number of people who want to have their assessment recorded is a more appropriate measurement to use? Secondly, will the Minister tell me exactly what steps are being taken, and how quickly, to inform claimants that their assessments can be recorded? If people do not know that that service is available, they will hardly ask for it. Will the Minister also tell me how many audio recording devices Atos now has access to, and whether there will be a wider, permanent roll-out or merely a further pilot? Finally, will the Minister accept Professor Harrington’s call for more work to be done, so that there can be a proper evaluation?

Housing Benefit Entitlement

Nic Dakin Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd January 2013 Westminster Hall

[Phil Wilson]

That is another good point. I will come on to discuss that situation, which is also affecting my own local social housing providers in County Durham.

I understand that the Department for Work and Pensions has recognised the lack of available smaller properties. In its impact assessment, it notes that there is a mismatch between household size and the availability of suitable homes in the social sector for under-occupying claimants to downsize. I will now look at how that will affect County Durham, especially my constituents in Sedgefield.

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. In north Lincolnshire, North Lincolnshire Homes—the social housing provider—has 1,500 people who are deemed to be under-occupying properties and only 40 single-bedroom properties become available every year. People in huge distress are coming to see us about this matter, and it is very distressing.

[Phil Wilson]

It is very distressing, and the point that my hon. Friend raises again about the lack of one-bedroom properties will be starkly set out in the next part of my speech.

Livin, which used to be called Sedgefield Borough Homes, has about 8,500 properties, and about 1,609 of those households will be affected by the bedroom tax: 1,365 households are under-occupied by one bedroom and the remainder are under-occupied by two bedrooms. Livin only has 204 available one-bedroom properties. East Durham Homes—another housing association, which covers the communities of Wingate, Wheatley Hill, Thornley and Deaf Hill in my constituency—has said that it would take seven years for it to re-house all the tenants affected by the bedroom tax. For Livin, the period required to re-house affected tenants would be much longer. Both East Durham Homes and Livin estimate that the bedroom tax would mean that the 2,977 of their households that would be affected would have to find almost £1.8 million from elsewhere to go towards paying the rent on their existing homes, or the people in those households would have to go into arrears or move out, but there are not enough one-bedroom properties.