Avian Influenza Outbreak

Mark Spencer Excerpts

Wednesday 30th November 2022 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Food, Farming and Fisheries (Mark Spencer)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir George. I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Maldon (Sir John Whittingdale) for securing the debate. The debate has been positive, and many Members have made similar points. I shall try to address as many of those points as I can over the next 10 minutes.

My hon. Friend the Member for Torbay (Kevin Foster) was probably an outlier in talking about Paignton zoo, which is a matter that he has raised with me in private before. There are many zoos up and down the country that face specific and challenging circumstances. Highly valuable birds have to be protected, and many are quite difficult to manage. I am told that penguins, in particular, are of significant value, and that it is difficult to vaccinate and manage birds such as flamingos and ostriches, which are difficult to physically handle and are very wild in their nature. I can perhaps pick up some of those comments with him afterwards.

[Kevin Foster]

I thank the Minister for his response so far. I am very happy to meet him, perhaps with a representative of the Wild Planet Trust, so that we can go into those areas in more detail.

[Mark Spencer]

I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s supportive comment.

DEFRA’s avian influenza disease control measures aim to minimise the economic burden of the current outbreaks. We are working closely with industry to address the impact on the sector and protect public health and the wider economy. We recognise that the poultry industry is under serious pressure, and we also recognise the impact of avian influenza on wild bird populations. Outbreaks of avian flu in both the kept and wild bird populations are at an unprecedented scale: for the first time, significantly, new cases have been confirmed for the second year of the outbreak.

October saw a massive escalation in the number of cases confirmed. Although the number of confirmed cases in poultry and captive birds is slowly reducing, which is good news, there were 124 cases in England, nine in Scotland, three in Wales and one in Northern Ireland as of last night. That compares to a total of 158 cases between October 2021 and September 2022, and 26 cases in winter 2020-21.

In responding to avian flu in kept birds, our priority has always been to get as quickly as possible to the farm where the disease is suspected, and to get on with the issue of compensation. Despite the unprecedented scale of the challenge, the APHA is staying on top of it. I thank the people working at the APHA and DEFRA; they are working day and night to deal with the pandemic, in very difficult circumstances. I know that they will continue to respond effectively as long as the outbreak continues. They are taking steps to improve the operational and policy response, even as it is under way, to support our vital food sector.

We produce approximately 11 million turkeys in the UK every year, so the numbers of them affected are relatively small. We believe that the outbreak will not affect the overall supply of Christmas turkeys, which is a huge credit to the industry. Its response has been robust, and it is keeping us well fed and supplied at Christmas.

Wild birds have also been hard hit over the summer for the first time, and breeding sea birds have been particularly badly affected. DEFRA and the Welsh Government have joined forces to produce a mitigation strategy that provides practical guidance for land managers, the public and those involved in environmental organisations, so that they can work alongside the Government to monitor the disease. Together with the Scottish and Welsh Governments, DEFRA is working closely with the APHA, Natural England, NatureScot, the Joint Nature Conservation Committee and other non-governmental organisations, such as the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds and the British Trust for Ornithology, to monitor and respond to the effect of avian flu on wild birds.

I turn specifically to compensation. We recognise the significant financial pressure and emotional impact that the outbreak can have on producers. Current rules are designed to encourage good biosecurity standards, which means being careful about every single movement on and off farm and into poultry sheds. I cannot underestimate the importance of good biosecurity. The hon. Member for Leeds North West (Alex Sobel) mentioned my comments about housing orders; my direct answer is that they help. It is not a silver bullet, but housing poultry helps. As I indicated during that statement, it has a twofold impact, but biosecurity can have a 44-fold impact. We must not underestimate the importance of biosecurity.

[Jim Shannon]

I took the liberty of passing to the Minister’s PPS the BEIS request forms on compensation and vaccination. There is an argument that the compensation system, as it is now, does not respond to the help needed. Has the Minister had a chance to look at that, and is he able to reply?

[Mark Spencer]

Let me try to address that directly now. What we cannot do as a Government, which is much more challenging, is to underwrite the whole poultry production system; UK taxpayers would find that too much of a challenge. Of course, we want to try to support the industry and ensure that it is there for the future. That is why we changed the rules, so that we start the conversation process from the second that the APHA vets recognise there is an outbreak of avian influenza. We have become much better and quicker at getting those APHA vets on to site—within 24 hours, in most cases—to identify the disease and start the conversation process from that moment.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Maldon made reference to four-legged animals—that is almost identical to the compensation scheme for foot and mouth disease, for example, whereby the Government pay compensation for animals that are not diseased that are being culled to stop the spread of the infection. We are working day and night to ensure that this system works. We have improved. People in the industry recognise that that is a better place than we were in at the beginning of this terrible disease, but it still brings huge financial and emotional challenges to the people working in the sector.

We have also moved to assist with defrosted products. They will be properly labelled and accompanied by in-store signage, along with the online information for customers, and this option will give producers certainty over business planning. There have been a number of calls, including from my right hon. Friend the Member for Maldon, to extend that scheme to next season, and to give producers the confidence to step back into the marketplace. The Department is genuinely open to a conversation about whether to roll that forward to next year. We do not want to allow competition from overseas to undercut our sector. We are genuinely open to a conversation on what producers see as the best route forward, as we want to support them into next season and next Christmas. Our work with the sector has shown that, in the past, there has been too much uncertainty about the compensation schemes, and we are keen to engage and work with it moving forward.

I return to biosecurity, which is an essential defence against avian influenza, and, when done extremely well, can reduce the risk of infection by 44-fold. Despite a legal requirement for an avian influenza prevention zone as a baseline for the industry, veterinary investigations at infected premises continue to reveal unacceptable lapses in biosecurity in some cases. The industry must play its part in helping to prevent further outbreaks. That means maintaining buildings properly, ensuring biosecurity is done as robustly as health and safety with senior leadership in companies, and effective training for all staff. One small lapse can have a devastating effect, allowing this terrible disease to enter into a poultry house.

The measures legally require birdkeepers to keep their birds indoors and to follow stringent biosecurity measures to help protect their flocks from the disease, regardless of type or size. I urge all birdkeepers, from those who keep large commercial flocks to those who have one or two birds in their back garden, to adopt the best practice biosecurity advice measures that are required in law.

Any future decisions on disease control measures, including the use of vaccination, will continue to be based on the latest scientific and veterinary advice. A lot of work is going on in the background internationally to develop that vaccine and make sure it works. As many Members have identified, the covid pandemic has given us much more professionalism and put much more of a system in place to develop those vaccines, and we will call on that expertise to try to find a vaccine that is effective, in order to prevent this disease internationally. That will also require a lot of co-operation in terms of trade, making sure that the markets we export to are willing to receive vaccinated meat products and eggs in future. That has to be an international agreement, because we do not want to damage our ability to export products.

We have seen a tightening in the egg sector, as some Members have referenced. The UK supply chain is resilient: there are currently 38 million laying hens across the country. Avian flu is not having an impact on the overall supply, with only 2% of the national flock having died or been culled due to avian flu. The disruption to the supply of eggs we have seen recently is mainly due to the commercial decisions that businesses are taking as a result of the rising costs of feed and energy over the past year, mostly caused by Putin’s illegal invasion of Ukraine.

We welcome the announcements made by some retailers that they will provide additional financial support to the egg sector in recognition of the challenges that the sector faces, and we encourage those retailers to continue to support the egg industry. We are working closely with devolved Administrations to keep the egg market under close review, and will continue to do so. We have also been keen to work closely with the egg industry; we have done so in recent weeks, and I will chair a roundtable on 6 December with representatives from across the UK egg supply chain to discuss the challenges that the sector is facing and determine how we can assist.

This has been a very positive debate. Lots of Members have identified the way out of this challenge in the long term, which of course will be vaccination. I sincerely hope that our scientists can find a solution that will solve our challenges. I express my extreme sympathy with those people who have been caught up with this terrible disease, and we will continue to work closely with the sector to make sure we have a thriving poultry industry moving forward.

Draft Agricultural Holdings (Fee) Regulations 2022

Mark Spencer Excerpts

Wednesday 30th November 2022 General Committees

[The Minister for Food, Farming and Fisheries (Mark Spencer)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Agricultural Holdings (Fee) Regulations 2022.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Twigg. I declare my farming interests, as set out in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. As agricultural tenancy matters are devolved, I speak for England only, but I want to highlight that we worked closely with the Welsh Government on this instrument, and the same composite instrument was debated and approved by the Senedd on 22 November. I therefore trust that my Opposition colleagues will follow their Welsh colleagues and approve the regulations.

Many tenants and landlords work collaboratively and progressively to resolve issues that may arise during their tenancy agreement, but sometimes that is not possible. In that case, our agricultural tenancy legislation enables either party to the tenancy agreement to apply for a professional authority to appoint an independent arbitrator to help to resolve any disputes. The legislation also enables the professional authorities to charge a small statutory fee to cover the administration costs of delivering an arbitration appointment service. The current statutory fee was last set in 1996, at £115. Because of inflation, that sum no longer covers the costs incurred by the professional authorities in delivering that arbitration service, so the purpose of this instrument is to update the statutory fee on a cost recovery basis, to £195. That is in line with His Majesty’s Treasury guidance on managing public money. The increase was supported by 73% of the respondents to the Government’s consultation on the issue.

The instrument also updates the regulations in line with changes made in the Agriculture Act 2020 to include a wider list of professional authorities that can now offer an arbitration appointment service. The list now includes the president of the Central Association of Agricultural Valuers, the chair of the Agricultural Law Association and the president of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors. Tenants and landlords have more choice between different service providers, which will help to drive continuous improvement and the provision of an efficient and quality service. In addition, the instrument includes a new duty to review the regulations every five years. Reviews will be carried out in consultation with the industry to check that the level of statutory fee is appropriate and in line with the cost-recovery principles.

I am aware that the recently published report on tenant farming—the product of a review led by Baroness Rock—includes recommendations on the operation and oversight of dispute resolution. I put on record our thanks to Baroness Rock and members of the working party for their work in producing the report. I welcome the report and the focus on supporting a vibrant tenancy sector. The Government are considering recommendations, and I will be meeting Baroness Rock to discuss the report soon. The Government will publish a formal response in due course.

I hope that I have assured you, Mr Twigg, and members of the Committee, of the need for this instrument. It will ensure that tenant farmers and landlords continue to have access to the appointment of an independent arbitrator when they need it, funded by an appropriate statutory fee set on a cost recovery basis.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mark Spencer]

I am disappointed by the Opposition spokesman’s comments. It appears fairly obvious to me that in Wales, where the Labour party is in charge and has the responsibility to sort the matter out, it is happy to go along with the increase, but here, where we are in charge, it somehow finds a political opposition to the increase. That is pretty disappointing.

There are two separate issues. One is the arrangements for the management of the arbitration service; the other is the cost. Today we are just sorting out the cost of the arbitration service, and £200 does not seem like a large sum for that service to be delivered. These occasions are quite rare, and in order to resolve challenges between tenants and landlords a fee has to be applicable. I think that £200 is an appropriate amount of money, particularly if we are talking about blocks of land where rents may be in excess of £150 an acre. We are talking about a fee equivalent to 1.5 acres on a block of land.

The hon. Member mentioned the Rock review. Of course, we will respond as soon as we can. I would gently say to him that it is more important to get it right than to do it quickly. He can have a response as quickly as he wants, but we want to get it right and consider it properly. There were 80-plus recommendations in that report. It deserves the Government to look at it properly, and consider how many they can adopt. I am keen to take onboard as many recommendations as possible. A lot of work went into the report, and it deserves due consideration. That is what it will get. I hope that the hon. Member will reconsider and support the motion, as his colleagues did in Wales.

[Daniel Zeichner]

I hear what the Minister says, but the increase in the rate has been waited on for eight, nine or 10 years.

Support for British Farming

Mark Spencer Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd November 2022 Westminster Hall

[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mark Spencer)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Gary. I draw Members’ attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, and pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for East Devon (Simon Jupp) for securing the debate. I was going to start by saying that we have seen the Chamber at its best today: we have seen a huge amount of celebration of and positivity about UK agriculture. I am sorry that the speech made by the hon. Member for Cambridge (Daniel Zeichner) soured that mood, to be honest.

[Daniel Zeichner]

It is the truth.

[Mark Spencer]

The truth is that if the hon. Gentleman looks around him, he will see how many members of the Labour party are here to provide support, and how many members of the Conservative party are here. Seeing how many Conservative Back Benchers have come to take part in this very important debate demonstrates how important rural communities are to the Conservative party and to this Government.

I will respond to the hon. Gentleman later; I will start by commenting on the speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for East Devon. He talked about how the new schemes are going to change the way in which we farm. This will be an exciting moment in UK agriculture: we will move in a direction where we can balance growing food—food security is a very important part of our agricultural production and our supply chains, and it will continue to be so going forward—with improving our environment and our biodiversity.

The good news is that UK farmers are very much up for that fight. They want to get involved in it, and are very proud of the landscapes they have created. I think it was my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Derek Thomas) who made reference to people criticising farmers and saying that they are the problem. He hit the nail on the head: farmers are part of the solution. The beautiful rolling landscapes that we see in Cumbria and in Devon are not there by accident, but because farmers have created those landscapes through the way in which they have produced food for generation after generation. The beautiful stone walls in North Yorkshire are not there for decoration, but to keep sheep in. We need to recognise that and celebrate it, and help and support our farmers through this process, because they are up for the fight.

My hon. Friend the Member for East Devon went on to talk about trade Bills. I would put a much more positive spin on this than the hon. Member for Cambridge.

[Daniel Zeichner]

Or the former Secretary of State.

[Mark Spencer]

The former Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice), was a very good Secretary of State. He fought tooth and nail on behalf of UK farmers during those debates, and secured a number of concessions from the Government on that journey. What we have been left with is a trade deal with Australia and New Zealand that has brought those countries closer to us and allowed us to co-operate and work with them, which will give us huge opportunities in future. There are massive markets around the world in Asia and North America where we can sell top-quality UK beef and lamb, working with Australia and New Zealand—which have the opposite seasonal activity to us—to supply those markets. Bringing them closer through those trade deals is the first step on that journey, and I am very proud of what UK farmers produce. We should celebrate that and make the most of it in trying to exploit those markets moving forward.

Turning to the hon. Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis), I am delighted that his son is going to agricultural college—did he say Askham Bryan? I think he just said that it was a college in North Yorkshire, but I hope it is Askham Bryan, which I know is a very good college. If there was ever a moment when we needed bright young people to come into our sector—the next generation to take us forward—this is it, and I celebrate the fact that the hon. Gentleman has family getting involved in the sector. We should do all we can to encourage that. One of the first meetings I had when I took over as Minister was with the National Federation of Young Farmers’ Clubs, looking at some of the work it is doing to encourage young people into the sector. It is also very in tune with some of the mental health challenges that young people and farmers in rural communities are facing. Anything I can do in this job to help it on that journey, I will do.

The hon. Member for Barnsley Central also talked about biosecurity, which is very important when it comes to dealing with avian influenza: anything we can do to increase the biosecurity of some of our professional poultry units is to be welcomed. He went on to talk about African swine fever, which is a challenge that is spreading across Europe. That is why on 1 August this year, we changed the rules: we did a spot check on items coming into the UK to see how much illegal or unregistered pork meat was coming in, and have now changed the rules so that no one can import more than 2 kg at a time. Border Force employees are on their toes, looking for any violations of those rules to make sure we keep the UK safe from African swine fever—it would be a disaster if we ended up with it.

There has been a lot of talk about seasonal workers; clearly, I am not in a position to announce those figures, but we are in close discussions with our friends in the Home Office and hope to give clarity on that issue as soon as possible. That neatly takes me to the former Home Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti Patel). She started with a series of massive plugs for her constituency and the great food producers of Essex, including Tiptree, which I do recognise as one of the premium jam producers in the world, not just the country. She went on to talk about avian influenza. It is fair to say that Essex, Suffolk and Norfolk have been at the epicentre of that disaster. My heart goes out to those poor farmers who have found themselves victims of that terrible virus. The good news, from a national point of view, is that we have robust supply chains in place. There will be turkeys for Christmas. There are some challenges in the goose market, but the chicken market is also fine.

The right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael), who always attends these debates, is a great advocate for his farmers and fishermen. He was the first to raise the Grocery Code Adjudicator, along with my hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset (Chris Loder), who mentioned the adjudicator a number of times. It is important to understand what the Grocery Code Adjudicator can and cannot do. Their role is to ensure that contracts that are entered into are adhered to appropriately and not violated.

If an egg producer has signed a contract at X per dozen eggs, the supermarket has the right to expect the producer to stand by that price. The producer could procure and secure the feed supply for the same period as the life expectancy of a laying hen, which is about 14 months. The producer could sign the contract for X amount per dozen, secure the price per tonne of feed and therefore protect the margin. The price of feed has gone up exponentially and farmers have reached the point where they must make a decision on whether to enter into a new contract for a new price or at the same price. About a year ago, many of them voted with their feet and said that they were not willing to sign up to that level of contract. The retailers made a mistake when they did not to see the huge challenge coming in the egg-supply market, and we are now seeing that.

What is the role of the Government? It is to encourage conversations between retailers, primary producers and wholesalers on a regular, monthly basis. The Secretary of State and I meet the farming unions, the hospitality sector, retailers and the processing sector to ensure that those conversations take place. I hope that that will continue to bear fruit, but I acknowledge there are challenges in the sector that are not linked to avian influenza.

My hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax) has been a great advocate for farming for a long time. He was one of those who celebrated my elevation to this position. So many people celebrated my arrival at the Dispatch Box, I felt like Ronaldo must have felt when he joined Man U and all the fans celebrated. I reflect on how that worked out in the end—let’s see how that goes.

My hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset talked about grant funding, and he will have seen today that we have announced some grant funding to help farmers improve slurry systems. We are very much committed to supporting farmers with capital expenditure to allow them to invest in new tech, especially if that will benefit animal welfare and the involvement of modern practices and technology in food production.

My hon. Friend went on to talk about bovine TB, of course. There is probably not enough time for me to get into that subject today, but what I will say is that we must use every tool in the box to fight bovine TB. That includes vaccinating badgers, it includes ensuring that we have improved biosecurity and it includes culling badgers where that is essential. We should be guided by the science and not by anything else—not by the calendar and not by political lobbying, but by the science. That is what the Government will do.

I think that, for the first time, the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) managed to get to the right of my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset when he committed to shooting every fox in Northern Ireland. I wish him well in his pursuit—[Interruption.] I know it was tongue in cheek. He is a huge advocate for the farmers of Northern Ireland, and they are great food producers. He also mentioned the price of fertiliser and the challenges with fertiliser, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Dr Hudson), who talked about CF Fertilisers. Yesterday I met my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy to see what we can do to co-operate and work together to assist CF in ensuring that we continue to supply the nation with ammonium nitrate, nitric acid and carbon dioxide, which of course is very important.

I know that I am running out of time, but I want to make a couple of comments about my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives, who talked about potato and dairy farmers leaving the sector and the importance of education. Education of our consumers is one area where we could criticise the agricultural sector. I do not think that we have done a very good job as farmers—I put my hand up as one of those farmers—of ensuring that our consumers understand how and where our food is produced. We have to do better to ensure that the next generation fully understands where and how our food is produced. Education was also mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for South West Hertfordshire (Mr Mohindra).

My hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border talked about grant schemes, which I hope I have mentioned. He also mentioned the work of the Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, which is under the chairmanship of my right hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Sir Robert Goodwill). It continues to be a great critical friend of the Department, and I would encourage it to continue its great work.

My hon. Friend for Penrith and The Border also talked about the reward for—that is, payments for—hedgerows and so on. I hope that when we announce the new schemes, which I hope will be very soon, he will see the fruits of those discussions. I am very keen to ensure that farmers want to take part in the schemes and feel part of the solution. But money is not the only barrier. I think that we can help, assist with, and tweak some farming practices. Hedgerows are a good example. It is not just about money; it is about being able to get on to the land and cut the hedges at the right time. If we can fund and assist with wildlife strips by the side of the hedgerows, it is possible to cut a hedgerow in January and February without running on to the commercial crop. That has the added benefit of creating a wildlife corridor and leaving berries and so on the hedgerows for wild birds to feed on during that time.

I think I have run out of time—apart from for mentioning the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), who gave us his rant about Brexit once again. We will have to come back to that on another occasion, but I enjoy the same loop of conversation we have with him every time.

[Sir Gary Streeter (in the Chair)]

Thank you, Minister. We now turn to Simon Jupp, who will have the final word.

Oral Answers to Questions

Mark Spencer Excerpts

Thursday 17th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)]

9. What steps she is taking with Cabinet colleagues to support fishing communities. [R]

[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mark Spencer)]

The Government are providing £32.7 million a year to enable all four fishing Administrations to deliver funding schemes to support the seafood sector, such as the fisheries and seafood scheme in England. In addition to that, £100 million is being provided through the UK’s seafood fund to support the long-term future and sustainability of the industry, helping to bring economic growth to coastal communities and supporting levelling up.

[Peter Aldous]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that answer. I draw attention to my role chairing Renaissance of the East Anglian Fisheries, a community interest company promoting the fishing industry in East Anglia. It is welcome that policy labs in the Cabinet Office are engaging with local fishermen in producing the bass fisheries management plan, and a REAF director recently attended a workshop in Lowestoft. Can my right hon. Friend confirm that he is also liaising with the Department for International Trade to confirm that the management plan accords with the trade and co-operation agreement, and will also apply to EU vessels?

[Mark Spencer]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for his tenacious campaigning on this topic. The bass fisheries management plan will manage bass fishing in England and Wales. We are delivering on our commitments in the Fisheries Act 2020. The fisheries management plan will apply to all vessels fishing in these waters, and the Fisheries Act 2020 requires consultation with all interested persons. Our fisheries management plans will comply with the UK’s international obligations, including the trade and co-operation agreement.

[Elliot Colburn (Carshalton and Wallington) (Con)]

T1. If she will make a statement on her departmental responsibilities.

--- Later in debate ---

[Siobhan Baillie (Stroud) (Con)]

T6. Communities in tiny villages such as Arlingham in my patch, a beautiful peninsular on the River Severn, are desperately worried about proposals for large solar farms. I welcome what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said about protecting agricultural land, but can she confirm that she is speaking with colleagues across Cabinet, so that we can tighten up this policy and provide clarity? I am not somebody who thinks these things should be banned, but we need to do better on giving clarity to businesses and communities.

[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mark Spencer)]

I thank my hon. Friend for her question. She will be aware that planning policy is a matter for the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, and solar policy is a matter for the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, but she should be assured that my officials are working closely with those Departments to ensure that we get the right balance between boosting our food production and delivering long-term energy security.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

Can the Secretary of State guarantee that the outstanding statutory deadlines we have spoken about on air, water and so forth will be published before COP15, so that we can lead by example? If she cannot guarantee that, does she agree that that bodes incredibly ill for the deadlines in the utterly misguided and reckless Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill? If we cannot meet these deadlines, how will we meet those?

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) (Con)]

I thank my right hon. Friend the fisheries Minister for rapidly acceding to the Committee’s request to set up an independent panel to investigate the cause of the mass shellfish mortality off the north-east coast last autumn. When does he expect that panel to be established and when might he expect it to report its findings?

[Mark Spencer]

Obviously we want to set it up as soon as possible and we want it to assess all the available evidence. All interested parties want to make sure that we identify the challenge. A number of—if I can use the term—red herrings have been thrown into the mix, so establishing the true facts as rapidly as possible will be the ambition of this rapid inquiry.

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

Some 80% of UK firms say that they are struggling to trade with the EU because of Tory Brexit red tape. Scots exports to the EU have been slashed by 13%. The cost to households in Scotland as a consequence of Brexit averages £900 a year. Additional Brexit checks for meat exports are being imposed on 14 December that will further hammer the agricultural sector. Where is the promised Brexit dividend for farmers? So far, all they can see from the Tories are restrictions and red tape.

[Mark Spencer]

One day, the hon. Lady will have to accept the result of the referendum and the fact that Brexit took place. We are embracing those opportunities in the Department. We are doing trade deals and promoting British products around the world. We are proud of what our British producers produce. We should get on the front foot and big them up, rather than being negative.

Avian Influenza

Mark Spencer Excerpts

Tuesday 1st November 2022 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mark Spencer)]

With permission, I would like to make a statement on the Government’s response to the current avian influenza outbreaks. The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs’ avian influenza disease control measures aim to minimise the economic burden of the outbreak on the food, farming and tourism industries and on the wider economy while protecting public health. However, we recognise that the industry is under serious pressure. The UK Health Security Agency advises that the risk to public health from H5N1 remains very low, and the Food Standards Agency has said that there is no food safety risk for UK consumers. The strain is the European strain of H5N1.

Outbreaks of avian influenza in both kept and wild birds continue to occur on an unprecedented scale, with cases continuing to be confirmed into year two of the outbreak for the first time. October has seen a massive escalation in the number of cases confirmed, with 91 cases of highly pathogenic avian influenza confirmed in poultry and captive birds: 82 cases in England, four in Scotland, four in Wales and one in Northern Ireland. This compares with a total of 158 cases in the year between October 2021 and 30 September 2022 and with 26 cases in the winter of 2020-2021.

We recognise the significant financial pressure that an outbreak of avian influenza can have on producers. Current rules are designed to encourage good biosecurity standards, and this remains a top priority. On Wednesday 26 October, to help producers to deal with the impacts of the UK’s worst ever avian influenza outbreak, DEFRA confirmed changes to the avian influenza compensation scheme, which will be implemented in addition to a relaxation of rules for the sale of previously frozen seasonal poultry products. Farmers who breed turkeys, geese, ducks or capons for their meat will have the option to slaughter their flocks early and freeze products, which can then be defrosted and sold to consumers between 28 November and 31 December 2022. While we produce over 11 million turkeys in the UK every year and there is no immediate threat to the food supply chain as a result of current outbreak, this measure will help to mitigate any potential risks to the Christmas food supplies.

Work with the sector has shown that there has been too much uncertainty in the past about the entitlement to compensation in the event of a confirmed case of avian influenza outbreak, where healthy birds are culled to help disease control. We are therefore altering the operation of the existing compensation scheme for avian influenza to give earlier certainty about the entitlement to compensation. This will be linked to decisions taken at the start of planned culling, rather than at the end. It will also allow us to reflect the particular impact of this unprecedented outbreak. Earlier clarity about compensation should also lead to swifter payments to help with cash-flow pressures. We will be applying this approach from 1 October 2022.

Biosecurity is the essential defence against avian influenza, but despite it being a legal requirement in the avian influenza prevention zone in force and a baseline for industry assurance schemes, veterinary investigations at infected premises continue to reveal unacceptable lapses in biosecurity. It is essential that the industry play its part in helping to prevent further outbreaks. Mandatory housing measures for all poultry and captive birds are to be introduced to all areas of England from one minute past midnight on the morning of Monday 7 November, following a decision by the United Kingdom’s chief veterinary officer. The housing measures legally require all bird keepers to keep their birds housed and to follow stringent biosecurity measures to help to protect their flocks from the disease, regardless of type or size.

Finally, any future decisions on disease control measures, including the use of vaccination, will be based on the latest scientific, ornithological and veterinary advice. I urge all bird keepers, from those keeping large commercial flocks to those with one or two birds in the back garden, to adopt the best practice biosecurity advice measures required in the avian influenza prevention zone. I commend this statement to the House.

[Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for giving me advance sight of his statement, which is welcome but should have been made weeks ago, as the devastating impact on the wild bird population has been known for months and the impact on producers has been getting worse and worse week by week. Yesterday, the Government finally announced that a full bird housing order would come into effect from Monday 7 November. That is coming too late, with over 3 million birds having been culled already, so why did it take so long? And because birds do not recognise borders, can the Minister tell us about discussions with the devolved Governments on introducing similar restrictions? With the imminent return of more migratory birds, we could rapidly see this spreading further across the four nations.

On the compensation scheme, can the Minister tell us how much it is costing? He mentioned the uncertainty about entitlement. There may be uncertainty in his Department, but the real complaint has been about the inability of the Animal and Plant Health Agency to move quickly enough when incidents are reported, and that is his Department’s responsibility. We know what the problem is: the shortage of vets and the lack of catchers and cullers. The vets went back to Spain and Portugal, but his Department had no plan or capacity to deal with a new crisis, and now we have one. Can the Minister tell us what the vacancy rates are at the APHA? Just how short is the agency? And if everyone there is working on avian flu, as they need to be, what effect is that having on issuing the dreaded export certificates that all our exporters now need?

We are told that the outbreak has spread at a much faster pace this year than previously, with the chief vet telling parliamentarians this morning that, in terms of the number of cases, we are six weeks ahead of where we were this time last year. What impact will this have on our food supplies? We know that the disease affects turkeys and geese much more severely. The Minister says that there is no immediate threat, but it is reported that we already have a 20% supply issue with free-range turkeys. Is he confident that we will have enough turkeys for Christmas?

The Minister is right to say that biosecurity is critical for preventing the spread, and producers must take the responsibility, but what support are the Government offering to farmers to help to implement effective biosecurity measures and what checking is being done to ensure that such measures are at the right standards? Looking to the future, what is he doing to give seasonal producers the confidence to restock next year? Finally, what of vaccines? Other countries are moving quickly. What is the Minister doing to ensure that trade issues are resolved and that every effort is being made to get a vaccine in place? This is a serious situation, and the Government have been slow to react and slow to report to this House. They need to do better.

[Mark Spencer]

I am disappointed that the hon. Gentleman has taken that approach and wants to make this a party political issue. Interestingly, Wales, where the Labour party is in control, has not moved to do this at this stage. We are announcing before the Welsh Administration. We are actually working quite closely with the devolved Administrations. We have taken this decision now because we are following the most up-to-date science and veterinary advice. We are led by the science and by our veterinary advisers. It is fair to say that the housing order has a twofold impact on the spread of avian influenza, whereas biosecurity can have a 44-fold impact on the spread, which is why our focus has been completely on biosecurity. As I say, we continue to talk to our colleagues in the devolved Administrations. We have constructive conversations and we are working closely with them.

It is clear that there is capacity within the DEFRA vets service to deal with this challenge. The vets are on site and on farms and they are dealing with it. When it comes to food supplies, we are confident that our food supply networks are enough to ensure that we have turkeys for Christmas. We have the most robust supply chains available to us and there should not be a problem as long as we continue to keep the strictest biosecurity.

The hon. Gentleman’s final comment was about vaccines. The advice I have been given is that the current vaccines are not as effective against the current strain of European bird flu as we would have hoped. Vaccines are available for birds kept in zoos that do not enter the food chain but, because of trade deals, there is a challenge with vaccinated birds entering the food chain. We are having conversations and working as closely as possible with our colleagues in Europe, who face the same challenges, to find a way forward.

[Dr Neil Hudson (Penrith and The Border) (Con)]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his update on this incredibly concerning situation. My thoughts go out to people on the frontline on farms, who are in among their birds. It is incredibly distressing and devastating for all involved in tending or looking after birds and animals that are dying or need to be culled as part of the control process. We saw that with foot and mouth, and we are now seeing it with avian flu.

I thank the vets and officials involved in disease surveillance and control during this incredibly stressful time. Does my right hon. Friend agree that this confirms that the APHA needs to be adequately staffed and resourced to protect animal health and welfare and biosecurity, and that we must refurbish and fund its headquarters down in Weybridge as a priority?

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[Mark Spencer]

I acknowledge my hon. Friend’s expertise in this area. The APHA has the resources to deal with this enormous challenge, but we recognise the pressure it is under. We will make sure it is well resourced to go about its business.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

I thank the Minister for his helpful update and for giving me early sight of his statement.

This outbreak is serious and potentially ruinous for those who depend on the poultry trade, or whose livelihood depends on the keeping of birds. All summer in Scotland, we have seen the impact of this episode of bird flu on our iconic bird colonies in places such as East Lothian, Galloway and St Kilda, with distressing scenes of these beautiful birds washing up on so many of our beaches.

In response to this emerging issue, the chief veterinary officer in Scotland joined her colleagues across the UK in declaring an avian influenza prevention zone. As the Minister said, the risk to the public is very low, and in Scotland we have had only four recorded cases, but I am sure he agrees that the situation must be kept under constant review.

I welcome the Minister’s announcement on the changes to the compensation scheme, and the industry will welcome that it allows for swifter payments in the run-up to Christmas. The Scottish chief veterinary officer has said that the housing of birds should not be seen as a silver bullet, and the Minister will be aware that we are not following the example of England on the mandatory housing of birds at this stage. Does he agree that the housing of birds is not a silver bullet? What further measures can be put in place, short of the housing of birds?

The Minister talked about his engagement with the Scottish Government, and perhaps he could tell us more. How regular are those meetings, and what has been the focus of conversation? We in Scotland will do everything possible to mitigate the risk and to ensure that we get reliable data so that everything we do is evidence-led.

[Mark Spencer]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comments and for the co-operation of the Scottish Government. We work very closely at official level and at chief veterinary officer level to ensure that we are working in tandem to mitigate the risks. As he identified, there is no risk to the public. Of course that continues to be monitored, but we do not foresee there being a risk to public health. He also spoke about the tragedy happening within our wild bird population. We are seeing devastating losses of many wild birds, and we hope their stocks will recover once we get through this terrible outbreak.

[Sir John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con)]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his statement. However, the compensation arrangements he outlined will do very little to help small producers such as KellyBronze in my constituency, which lost 9,800 turkeys from a flock of 10,000 in the space of a weekend, before the vet even arrived. Will he look to pay compensation from the date of notification, if the flock proves to be positive, as is the case for other species suffering from, for instance, foot and mouth disease? Will he confirm now that “freeze and thaw” will be available on the same basis next autumn, to give farmers the confidence to invest in birds for Christmas 2023?

[Mark Spencer]

I, too, have met my right hon. Friend’s constituent Paul Kelly, who made representations to me on behalf of KellyBronze. We have moved the start of compensation to as early as legally possible without the introduction of primary legislation. We are seeking to assist farmers as much as we can when they are caught out by this terrible disease. “Biosecurity, biosecurity, biosecurity” is the message I want to get across. It is very difficult, as it takes only one mistake—one quick visit to a unit with infected faeces on our boots—to devastate a whole flock.

[Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab)]

I recently held a farmers forum in Lancaster and Fleetwood, and it is fair to say that the farmers in my community are deeply concerned about avian flu, but they are also concerned about the shortage of vets. Is the Minister confident that his Department has access to enough vets to contain the avian flu outbreak?

[Mark Spencer]

We have full confidence that we have enough vets to deal with this outbreak. Those vets are working long hours with great dedication, but I hear the hon. Lady’s comments about the concerns of poultry keepers and farmers up and down the country. We should not underestimate the mental health impact on farmers when they lose their livelihood and their flocks. It puts them under huge pressure.

[Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con)]

I welcome the improvements to the compensation arrangements. I am aware that the National Farmers Union’s poultry board visited the Department last week to try to impress upon my right hon. Friend and his officials that paying compensation to farmers who have lost birds to culling but not to farmers whose birds have died from avian flu has made it very difficult to provide adequate compensation for poultry farmers whose livelihoods have been devastated by the impact of this disease, many of whom are in my south Shropshire constituency. I urge him to say whatever else he can about compensation applying to birds that have already died, prior to notification by vets.

Secondly, will my right hon. Friend comment on flexibility on the labelling of free-range eggs? The housing requirements for layers need some flexibility to allow free-range certificated flocks to continue.

Finally, the vaccine development is welcome. Will my right hon. Friend bring the same urgency to bear on avian flu vaccines as is applied to human covid vaccines? Will he engage with retailers in this country as soon as possible to ensure that they are willing to supply vaccinated meat?

[Mark Spencer]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his three questions. First, we have moved the date for the compensation scheme to as early as legally possible, to try to assist farmers with the challenges they face. He mentioned the labelling of free-range eggs. The law currently allows 16 weeks from the second a bird is housed, before eggs may no longer be called free-range. We have a while before the end of that 16-week period, when eggs would have to be labelled as barn-reared. That can be done with a simple label to say the eggs are barn-reared, rather than free-range.

As with covid, vaccination will be the route out of this problem, but we need our best scientists to concentrate on developing an effective vaccine. We need to work with our colleagues across the European Union so that birds and products exported for food will be accepted into their marketplace, as well as keeping conversations open with retailers to ensure they are also happy.

[Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)]

Twenty-one years on from foot and mouth disease devastating our communities in Cumbria, we are especially sensitive to not only the animal welfare consequences of outbreaks of animal diseases such as avian flu, but the crushing impact on people, livelihoods and the wider community. Will the Minister say more about the support he will be giving—compensation and other support—to poultry farmers directly affected and to those who will be indirectly affected by this hammering of their business, which puts their businesses at risk? Given that the Department has delayed imposing mandatory housing until next week, what evidence is there that this window could not now trigger panicked and unsafe practices, creating greater infection and increased misery for communities such as mine?

[Mark Spencer]

Clearly, the housing order came in following the best scientific and veterinary advice that we have, but I cannot reiterate enough the impact that improved biosecurity has on those units over a housing order. I recognise the impact that foot and mouth disease had in the hon. Gentleman’s part of the country and the mental scars it leaves on livestock holders. We have brought forward the compensation scheme so that cash flow is assisted. In bringing forward the moment at which the compensation scheme kicks in, we have also brought forward the moment at which the compensation is received in the bank account of the affected farmer. However, we cannot pay compensation for consequential losses further down the track. As a society, we will have to monitor and support those whose mental health is affected and address the impact that has on many, many families up and down the country.

[Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con)]

It feels as though Norfolk is at the epicentre of this bird flu epidemic. In parts of my constituency, on the Norfolk broads, we have multiple reports of wild birds, including many swans, dying on our rivers and lying in the water. The Environment Agency is struggling to cope and there appears to be little consideration for the wild bird deaths. Will my right hon. Friend ensure that trained wildlife volunteers and rescue charities are given the necessary and special permissions to help with this emergency and are given special legal clearance to assist with the clear-up operation?

[Mark Spencer]

My hon. Friend is right to identify that Norfolk, north Essex and Suffolk are at the epicentre of this and have been under a housing order for some time. Obviously, he has made representations to me in private, as has my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St Edmunds (Jo Churchill), who is in her place. There are some challenges in identifying where the disease is spreading, and members of the public can certainly help by reporting sightings of dead birds, to make sure that we are tracking where the disease is spreading.

[Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)]

As the Minister acknowledged, this is a deeply concerning for poultry farmers, and that concern is felt right across Yorkshire, as I know it is right across the country, not least because of the proximity to the crucial Christmas period, as he said. I wish to ask him about testing, because he will know that entire flocks can die in the time between reporting a suspected case and testing. Is any additional resource required to be put in place in order to enable a more rapid testing process?

[Mark Spencer]

Currently, we feel as though we have enough resource and are able to get on to farms quickly enough to identify the disease where possible, and that is the moment when compensation begins. As the hon. Gentleman has identified, rapid diagnosis and quick action are required, and at this moment we feel as though we have the resources to deliver that service.

[Maggie Throup (Erewash) (Con)]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his statement. Although, as he has stated, the risk to humans from avian flu thankfully remains low, we know from recent experience that clear public information will be key to minimising the spread of the virus and keeping our constituents safe. Using the lessons learnt from covid, and indeed from previous foot and mouth outbreaks, what steps is he taking to ensure that the public know what to do if they come across sick or dead birds as they go about their everyday lives?

[Mark Spencer]

My hon. Friend’s experience during the covid pandemic is extensive and valuable to us. My advice to members of the public is not to interfere with those dead birds, not to pick them up and not to move them, but to report them to their local authority if they see them dying on the roadside.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister for his response. In my constituency of Strangford, in Northern Ireland, I am aware of two confirmed outbreaks of avian flu, one in Ballywalter, 4 miles from where we live, and one in Kircubbin, 3 miles south of where we live. I am also aware of an avian influenza outbreak in Castle Espie, which is a wildlife refuge only 4 or 5 miles across Strangford Lough from where we are. A lot of migrating wild fowl—brent geese, wigeon, teal and mallard—are coming in, so clearly the possibility of an avian influenza outbreak not only in my area but across all of Northern Ireland is real. What can be done from a United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland perspective, and also with the Republic of Ireland? This thing is so big that we can only deal with it together. Perhaps the initiative to make that happen across the whole of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Republic is one that you might want to push, Minister.

[Mark Spencer]

The hon. Gentleman is right to identify that this is not an England-only problem; it is an international challenge and we need to co-operate and work with our international colleagues. Later this week, I will be going to the OECD, where I will be meeting international farming Ministers to discuss this and many other challenges that we face. He is right to identify the need for international co-operation required to solve this terrible challenge.

[David Duguid (Banff and Buchan) (Con)]

I welcome the statement from my right hon. Friend, particularly on the measures relating to compensation earlier in the process, which will be most welcome, not least because, as he will be aware, one recent outbreak of avian flu in Scotland has been in my constituency in recent days. The shadow Minister rightly says that the disease knows no borders, so may I ask the Minister what discussions he has had in recent days with the Scottish Government on this matter? Does he agree with Robert Thompson, the chairman of the NFU Scotland poultry working group, that the same housing order measure should be implemented in Scotland? Does the Minister also agree with his statement that, although the biosecurity hygiene measures do exist in Scotland, as has been pointed out by the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), the main risk is from the wild bird population to those flocks that are still outside?

[Mark Spencer]

One big challenge we face is that there has not been a break in the disease; traditionally, over the summer period the disease has “gone away” and disappeared. Unfortunately, the levels of infection have continued over the summer period and wild bird populations now heading towards the UK for the winter, to warmer areas such as Scotland from the north pole, are bringing that disease with them. There are not many places in the country that see Scotland as warm, but if you live in the north pole I suppose it is. Our level of co-operation with the devolved Administrations is exemplary. This is one area in which there is no political axe to grind, and the level of co-operation and engagement across the whole of the UK is exemplary.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (Ind)]

The Minister said in his reply to the shadow Minister that there was close co-ordination with the devolved Administration, and he has made that point repeatedly during the debate. However, the Rural Affairs Minister said in the Senedd last week when answering questions that she had had no contact with the previous Secretary of State and had written only to the new one. Perhaps that is not surprising, given that the previous Secretary of State was not in post for particularly long. Will the Minister ensure that that co-ordination is happening not just at official level but at ministerial level?

[Mark Spencer]

That is a good question, and I make the commitment to the hon. Gentleman now that my door is open to colleagues from across the UK and the devolved Administrations to have those conversations. There are a lot of conversations taking place at official level and certainly the chief veterinary officers meet regularly.

[Aaron Bell (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Con)]

We have already had avian flu in the north of Newcastle-under-Lyme, following an outbreak in Kidsgrove last month. I welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement and what he is doing, given the increasing numbers, and the compensation scheme he has set out today, but to reassure consumers will he also set out what the UK Health Security Agency has said about the risk to public health and what the UK Food Standards Agency has said about poultry products, including eggs, and whether they remain safe to eat?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mark Spencer]

I can be absolutely categorical: there is absolutely no identified risk to human health. That continues to be monitored. We have the highest levels of food safety available to us. The Food Standards Agency is engaged in the process and has given us every assurance that there is no impact on human health at all.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

I will not respond to the Minister’s disgraceful attack on Scotland’s mild and gentle climate. Surely though, the difference between avian flu and foot and mouth and other diseases of that sort is that avian flu is rife in the wild bird population? It is absolutely heartbreaking to walk on the beaches of the Northern Isles at the moment and see the number of dead birds being washed up all the time. The RSPB told me last week that some species, such as the great skua—perhaps not the most sympathetic species—could be threatened as a consequence. What more than biosecurity can we do to ensure that the link between the wild and domestic bird populations is broken?

[Mark Spencer]

The truth is that it is very difficult. Biosecurity is the best tool available to us, but as the right hon. Gentleman says, the disease continues to spread in wild bird populations. To a certain extent, we have to hope that nature finds a way of resolving this on its own and that birds with immunity to the virus are able to breed with other immune birds and so build up the natural immunity that can overcome this terrible virus.

[Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con)]

I thank the Minister for his statement and for the actions his Department has already taken. Sadly, Blackpool has been affected by avian flu—40% of the swan population in Stanley Park died last winter and a high number of cases was reported recently among seabirds. Although I understand that the risk to the general public remains very low, what steps is his Department taking to raise awareness of this issue, and what steps should members of the public take to report suspected cases?

[Mark Spencer]

As I said earlier, it is important that members of the public do not interfere with dead birds, as they could inadvertently spread the virus by doing so. It is possible to report the discovery of a dead bird either to DEFRA or to the local authority, and that helps the Department to identify where the disease is spreading.

[Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister for his statement. This is indeed a worrying situation. If avian flu were to enter our commercial flock in Northern Ireland, it would have a devastating impact on our poultry industry, including many family farms, on international trade and on the wider economy. Can the Minister confirm that all resources to address outbreaks and prevention—finance and compensation, labour and gas stocks—are being made available? Specifically on compensation, can he confirm that there is adequate finance to pay it and that it will be paid promptly?

[Mark Spencer]

We do have adequate resources to deal with the challenges we face. We brought forward the compensation payments, which will lead to earlier payments being made to those being compensated. It is worth acknowledging, however, that farmers are not interested in compensation; they want to keep their flocks safe, and the best way they can do that is through biosecurity. That is not just about washing wellington boots and hands, of course. For example, when bedding introduced to housing has been stored outside, there is a risk that it has come into contact with infected bird faeces. Stringent scrutiny of all the biosecurity measures taken on farms is essential to prevent the spread of the virus.

[Richard Foord (Tiverton and Honiton) (LD)]

My question is also about compensation, which I know our constituents do care about. Although it is good to hear the Minister recognise that there has been uncertainty about entitlement to compensation, I am unconvinced that the new approach has been applied since 1 October. In my part of Devon, poultry farmers have been severely affected in recent months. Earlier today, I tried to call the Animal and Plant Health Agency to check its advice on how soon after avian influenza is identified farmers will be entitled to compensation. After unsuccessful phone calls with two advisers, I was asked to email them. How has the APHA guidance for our farmer constituents on the earlier availability of compensation been improved since 1 October?

[Mark Spencer]

To be clear, the rules had not changed on 1 October. They changed last week and we backdated the changes to 1 October, so the kick-in moment for compensation for farmers who sadly lost their flocks after 1 October moved slightly backward. I can write to the hon. Member directly setting out the advice APHA is giving farmers on a sheet of paper so that he can familiarise himself with it.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I thank the Minister for his statement today and for responding to the questions.

Genetic Technology (Precision Breeding) Bill

Mark Spencer Excerpts

Report stage
Monday 31st October 2022 Commons Chamber

[Daniel Zeichner]

My right hon. Friend speaks good sense once again. Of course, that quite legalistic judgment was met with surprise by many. The question is how we go forward. Others in Europe are going forward as well. I suspect that we will end up in similar places at similar times, but it would be sensible to end up in a much more similar place than looks likely if we pursue the Bill as it has been developed so far. The worry is the effects that the changes are already having on sectors such as the organic sector, which used to have exports to the EU worth some £45 million a year, according to Organic Farmers and Growers, which rightly remains concerned about the Bill as it stands.

Much more could be said on a topic that is as fascinating as it is interesting and important, but I will spare the House and direct those Members who are interested to look at the detailed discussion in Committee. Tonight I will end where I started and restate Labour’s commitment: we are pro science and pro innovation. We are in no doubt that gene editing could bring real gains in improving environmental sustainability and reducing food insecurity. Science and technology used for public good can be a huge boon, but to achieve that—to give investors, researchers and the general public confidence—we need a much stronger regulatory framework.

At the moment, as ever with this Government, the approach is simply to leave it to the market. They think that minimalist regulation is the way forward, whereas we say that good regulation is the way forward—a fundamental divide in this Chamber. I would simply say that, given the evidence from the fundamentalist deregulatory experiment carried out on our country over the last few weeks, one hopes that those on the Treasury Bench might just have learned something.

[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mark Spencer)]

I will address new clause 1 directly. The hon. Member for Cambridge (Daniel Zeichner) said, “We are very pro science and pro this technology,” and then spent the next 15 minutes explaining why he was not in favour of this technology, so I will address some of his comments.

The objective of the Bill is to achieve proportionate regulation of precision breeding organisms, which are currently regulated as genetically modified organisms. Science is at the heart of this policy, and the Bill rightly requires the Secretary of State to make decisions based on the advice of the Advisory Committee on Releases to the Environment—ACRE—which advises on the regulation of genetically modified organisms.

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[Mr Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con)]

There is concern among the cultured meat industry, which is unsure about the impact of the Bill on its research and trade. Will my right hon. Friend take this opportunity to show our support for this important new technology, which the UK is currently at the forefront of developing?

[Mark Spencer]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. There are many new technologies out there that we want to embrace and give the opportunity to come forward, albeit in a regulated format so that we can have confidence in our food systems, and that is the exact process that the Bill seeks to correct.

We do not label food products that have been produced through traditional techniques such as chemical mutagenesis, and we do not label foods as “novel” because precision bred products are indistinguishable from their traditionally bred counterparts. It would not be appropriate to require labelling to indicate the use of precision breeding in the production of food or feed. That view is shared internationally; many of our partners across the world, such as Canada, the US and Japan, do not require labelling for precision bred products.

The Food Standards Agency is developing a new authorisation process to ensure that any food or feed product will only go on sale if it is judged to present no risk to health, does not mislead consumers, and does not have lower nutritional value than its traditionally bred counterparts. In order to ensure transparency, the Bill enables regulations to make a public register through which information about precision bred food and feed products can be assessed by consumers.

I do not know whether it is appropriate to speak to other amendments now, Mr Deputy Speaker.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

It is up to you, but you will have an opportunity to speak again at the end of the debate.

[Mark Spencer]

I think I will leave it there and speak to other amendments at the end of the debate.

[Jim Shannon]

rose—

[Mark Spencer]

Before I sit down, I will of course take an intervention from the hon. Gentleman.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the Minister for giving me the chance to intervene. I am very conscious that because of the status of the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill, Northern Ireland is currently under EU rules in this area. That means that the Genetic Technology (Precision Breeding) Bill, which my party and many farmers across Northern Ireland would like to see in place, will not apply to Northern Ireland. Will the Minister assure me that it is the intention of the Government to ensure that every part of this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland has the same opportunities? We want those opportunities in Northern Ireland as well.

[Mark Spencer]

The last thing I want is to see farmers in Northern Ireland disadvantaged. There will be a huge advantage to English farmers over other parts of the United Kingdom, so we want to share this technology. There are parts of the United Kingdom, outside of England, particularly with James Hutton in Scotland and the Roslin Institute at Edinburgh University, where we are world leading in this technology. We have some of the best scientists in the world who genuinely lead this field and we want to share that technology across the United Kingdom and to see it embraced and celebrated.

[David Duguid (Banff and Buchan) (Con)]

rose—

[Mark Spencer]

I shall take one last point from my hon. Friend.

[David Duguid]

A UK-wide approach would be preferred by food producers and farmers right across the country. Can the Minister confirm that the invitation is still open to the devolved Administrations, such as the Scottish Government, to help progress this technology on a UK-wide basis?

[Mark Spencer]

Of course it is. I encourage those devolved Administrations to get on board and to support this new tech. They should embrace it and give their farmers the same advantage that we will hopefully achieve in the world marketplace.

[John Spellar]

rose—

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[Mark Spencer]

I keep saying that I will take a final intervention—the Whips will start to get upset with me, but I will take the right hon. Gentleman’s intervention none the less.

[John Spellar]

I was hoping the Minister would expand on some other areas, but can he respond to my point about how the vaccine taskforce has shown that science and proper regulation can work at pace for the benefit of our people? Moreover, will he address the question of what protection the Government will give to institutions engaged in this area, whose facilities may be targeted for vandalism by those who are anti-science?

[Mark Spencer]

I can address many of those points when I sum up the debate, but I am interested to hear other comments from Members around the Chamber before I do so. However, I say to the right hon. Gentleman that the sector already has some robust regulatory bodies, and we want to give them the power to regulate and oversee this technology. What we do not want to do is bind the hands of those bodies so that, in 20 years’ time, we have to re-legislate for another similar structure. We will have a robust regime in place, albeit heavily regulated, that allows the flexibility for this technology to go in directions that we cannot foresee at this moment.

Mr Deputy Speaker, I look forward to further comments from colleagues and to responding to them later in the debate.

[Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)]

We are concerned about the disadvantageous position that the Bill will likely put farmers in and about the knock-on impact on farmers in Scotland, despite the fact that the Scottish Government are not yet at the stage to approve the technology in Scotland.

The regulation of genetically modified organisms is a devolved matter. There is no question about that, and the Scottish and Welsh Governments have made that clear in their responses. The Scottish Government have been clear in their opposition to the UK Government’s moves on this. We do not presently intend to amend the GMO regulatory regime in Scotland, as we want to await the outcome of the EU’s consultation on whether some gene-edited organisms will be excluded from the GM definition.

According to the Office for Budget Responsibility, we are already suffering a 4% reduction in GDP due to this hard Tory Brexit. We do not need to see the introduction of further trade barriers caused by the UK’s rush to make this change. A delay to see the outcome of the consultation early next year would be far more sensible than passing the legislation now. This is relevant because of the impact of the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020, which tramples over devolved competencies, and prevents the Scottish Parliament from refusing the sale of these products.

I wish to speak to new clause 9 in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Deidre Brock), which ensures that the democratic principle of devolution is upheld and that the Scottish Parliament still has the authority to legislate on the marketing of precision bred organisms. We have raised concern after concern about the implementation of the 2020 Act. If the UK Government intend to respect devolution, which the people of Scotland voted for, they must ensure that the Scottish Parliament can continue to take those decisions.

There are both animal welfare and environmental concerns relating to precision breeding. We must ensure that those are properly considered and that all information and evidence is available before taking any decision. We strongly welcome more research into gene editing and new genetic technologies, but that must precede the wide-scale deployment of such technologies.

The Scottish Government want to ensure that Scotland operates to the highest environmental and animal welfare standards, so that our world-class Scottish grown food continues to be outstanding. The impact assessment of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs for the precision breeding Bill acknowledges divergence from the EU approach, which could have implications for compliance costs and future trade. We must be able to export our produce and the Bill risks our farmers being further hamstrung—in addition to all the hardships they already face as a result of this Tory Brexit.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mark Spencer]

Can I say how much I have enjoyed the comments from across the Chamber? I will seek to give colleagues some reassurance.

I will start with the comments from the hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Kirsty Blackman), who spoke to new clause 9, in the name of her hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Deidre Brock). The mutual recognition principle in the UKIM Act means that goods that comply with the relevant legislative requirements in one part of the United Kingdom can automatically be sold in other parts of the United Kingdom without complying with any differing relevant legislative requirements in those parts. Consequently, should UK Government legislation allow precision bred plants, seeds, animals, food and feed to be placed on the market in England, such products would be able to be placed on the market in Wales and Scotland. However, this would not be the case if a UKIM exclusion was put in place for precision bred products.

The hon. Member for Aberdeen North may recall that when this matter was raised in Committee, my predecessor explained that there is an established process for considering exclusions to the application of the market access principles of the UK Internal Market Act in the common framework areas. This process has been agreed by the UK Government, the Scottish Government, the Welsh Government and the Northern Ireland Executive. No formal request for a UKIM exclusion has been received from the Scottish Government in the context of ongoing intergovernmental discussions on the Bill between DEFRA and devolved Administration officials. As a result, we do not consider amending the UKIM Act itself to be appropriate, but rather that the UKIM exclusion process would be the appropriate route to consider the rationale and potential impact of a UKIM exclusion.

Turning to amendment 13, which is in addition to new clause 9, the hon. Member may once again recall that this was discussed extensively in Committee, and my predecessor explained that the common framework covering GMO marketing and cultivation was within the scope of the common frameworks programme. However, all four Administrations agreed that a common framework in this area was not required because the administration and co-ordination of this policy area was already provided for through existing intergovernmental arrangements under the GMO concordat.

In addition to engagement between DEFRA and genetic technology officials in the devolved Administrations, it is worth noting that the precision breeding policy interacts with four provisional common frameworks: animal health and welfare; plant varieties and seeds; food and feed safety and hygiene; and food compositional standards and labelling. Engagement among the respective officials is ongoing through these relevant frameworks.

We will continue to engage with our devolved Administration counterparts to address their specific concerns in connection with the Bill, but I encourage the hon. Member to embrace the opportunity that the Bill presents to unlock the benefits of science and research and development in this country, and ensure that the UK continues to invest in innovation in the agrifood industry. It would be a tragedy for Scottish farmers not to be able to embrace this new technology and I urge her to come with us on this journey and not to disadvantage Scottish farmers.

On amendment 3, we are very much aligned with the intentions of the hon. Member for Cambridge (Daniel Zeichner) and his colleagues to embed public interest into the Bill. We want precision breeding technologies to secure real benefits. I believe that they are a vital part of our toolkit to secure benefits for our food and environment. The amendment applies to release into the environment, which principally covers field trials. These are crucial in building our understanding of how genetic changes impact organisms under field conditions, and they are an integral part of the pure research as well as for breeding programmes. It is not necessary to place restrictions on research using these technologies, and we have no evidence to suggest that developers are doing anything other than what occurs in traditional breeding or in nature by creating new, stronger varieties that allow us to grow better and harvest better.

We also recognise the need to safeguard animal welfare, which is why we intend to take a step-by-step approach to implementing the Bill. We intend that precision bred animals will remain regulated under the GMO regime until the regulatory system outlined in the Bill is developed, to safeguard animal welfare. Delivering public good is what we strive for across Government and we are fully committed to developing a new, sustainable, resilient and productive food system, and I hope Members see that our interests and those of researchers in the UK are aligned.

On amendment 5 and environmental principles, the hon. Member for Cambridge and his colleagues have made it explicit that regulations made under this Act must be made in accordance with the environmental principles and the policy statement in the Environment Act 2021 and article 391 of the trade and cooperation agreement between the UK and the EU. Section 19 of the Environment Act provides that Ministers must have due regard to the policy statement on the environmental principles. DEFRA has already published and laid a draft version of the statement before Parliament for debate. Parliamentary scrutiny of the draft policy statement concluded in June and we are considering the feedback received from Parliament and will publish a final statement in due course.

As we are making good progress in this regard, it is unnecessary to amend the Bill with a provision that will be unnecessary by the time the regulations under the Bill come into force. Of primary importance is the advice from the Advisory Committee on Releases to the Environment that the provisions in the Bill do not have the effect of weakening or reducing environmental protections. The esteemed independent experts who sit on ACRE have provided the Government with this assurance, and it is this guidance that gives the Government the assurance to take the legislation forward. I would emphasise that Ministers before me have found that the Bill is consistent with our non-regression commitment to the EU and does not reduce our environmental protections.

On the debate about aligning with the EU, as some Members want, we recently closed the consultation on a potential new regulatory framework for precision bred plants. Some 80% of people considered the current regulations not to be fit for purpose. The EU intends to reform its own regulatory system as early as 2023 and we await the details on that.

Amendments 1 and 2 caused a great deal of debate and clearly many colleagues have concerns, so I am grateful to the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) for this opportunity to address this area. As with plants, there are potential benefits in enabling precision breeding in animals to improve the health, welfare and resilience of those animals, and we have a real opportunity to harness the great research taking place across the UK. Ensuring that these technologies are used responsibly without compromising animal health and welfare is vital. That is why we intend to take a stepwise approach in implementing the Bill, with regulatory changes to the regime for plants coming first, followed by animals at a later date. We want to ensure that the framework for animal welfare set out in the Bill is effective and workable, and we will not bring the measures in the Bill into force in relation to animals until the system is in place.

We are also clear that the system to protect animal health and welfare in the Bill will work with our existing animal welfare regulatory framework for protecting animals. We want to maintain and build on our strong record of animal welfare. If we want to drive investment in new research with potential for innovation and precision breeding in animals, we need to move forward with this Bill. It provides a clear signal that the UK is the best place to conduct research and bring products to the marketplace.

Building on this, and turning to amendment 4 in the name of the hon. Member for Cambridge and his colleagues, I recognise the level of concern about animal welfare. The suggestions outlined in the amendment represent issues that we will make sure are explored further as we develop the technical details underpinning the system for safeguarding the welfare of relevant animals and their qualifying progeny. That is why we have commissioned a research project to gather the evidence required to develop the health and welfare assessment. We have published an update note on animal welfare to explain our approach. I do not, however, consider this amendment to be necessary. Clause 13 will make sure the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs will need to be satisfied with the animal welfare declaration before issuing a precision bred animal marketing authorisation. This goes to the heart of what my right hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet (Sir Roger Gale) was concerned about. Further, the power in clause 25 allows us to set out in regulations what constitutes an adverse effect on health or welfare, including parameters needed for assessment.

The welfare declaration and the welfare advisory body’s assessment will be based on the principle that precision bred relevant animals will need to be kept in conditions that satisfy existing requirements on the keeping of animals set out in the Animal Welfare Act 2006 and the Welfare of Farmed Animals (England) Regulations 2007. I understand hon. Members’ concerns but reiterate that we have welfare-led legislation in place and this Bill is intended to work alongside it to enable responsible innovation.

I will take the opportunity of turning to amendment 12 to expand on the process set out in the Bill to ensure that the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs will have the necessary information to determine whether it is appropriate to issue a precision bred marketing authorisation. An application for such authorisation will have to include a declaration, with supporting evidence, that the notifier does not expect the health or welfare of the relevant animal or its qualifying progeny to be adversely affected by any precision bred traits. Any adverse effect could cover any direct or indirect effect and as such specifying this is not required in the Bill. The Secretary of State will need to refer the welfare declaration and all required accompanying information to a welfare advisory body with independent scientific expertise, which will report its conclusions to the Secretary of State.

These steps will provide a rigorous and proportionate basis for ensuring that the Secretary of State’s decisions on whether to issue precision bred marketing authorisations are appropriately informed by scientific evidence. As set out in our recently published policy update on animal welfare, the power in clause 25 could include consideration of any known health or welfare issues in selective-bred animals. I hope that gives my right hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet the reassurance he seeks.

Amendment 8 would require provisions in regulations for securing traceability of precision bred organisms in food and feed through supply chain auditing. The Bill proposes powers to introduce specific traceability requirements for food and feed produced from precision bred organisms placed on the market in England. That will be in addition to general rules on traceability that apply to all food and feed and to specific traceability rules that apply to particular food products regardless of the production method used. The Food Standards Agency will develop and design evidence-based options on how best to secure traceability of food and feed from precision bred organisms placed on the market in England. Any options on traceability must be sufficiently future-proofed and strike a proportionate balance between ensuring food safety and enabling innovation. Additionally, any new measure to secure traceability of precision bred organisms will need to build on existing infrastructure for general traceability, which food businesses already have a statutory obligation to secure.

The Food Standards Agency will advise on proportionate measures for securing traceability, making use of the advice from its scientific advisory committee, and will ensure that proposals are subject to a public consultation before any specific measures are implemented. The amendment proposed by the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion would not allow for that process to happen as it would restrict traceability to supply chain auditing.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mark Spencer]

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

I put on record my sincere thanks to the fantastic officials in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, who assisted with the drafting and delivery of the Bill. I also thank previous Secretaries of State: my right hon. Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice), who put an enormous amount of work into the Bill, and my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Jayawardena). I pay tribute to a series of Ministers who assisted at various stages of the Bill: my hon. Friends the Members for Bury St Edmunds (Jo Churchill), and for Banbury (Victoria Prentis), who are present; my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford (Gareth Johnson), who assisted with the Bill when he was a Whip; and of course my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Fay Jones), the Whip who is assisting today.

The Bill is a fantastic example of the opportunities we now have outside the EU. I am delighted that we have got to Third Reading. I wholly commend the Bill to the House, and I look forward to its progress in the other place.

National Food Strategy and Food Security

Mark Spencer Excerpts

Thursday 27th October 2022 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mark Spencer)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Esther McVey) and the hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) on securing this important debate, and I thank the Backbench Business Committee for allowing the time for it.

We are fortunate in the United Kingdom to have a highly resilient food supply chain that is built on strong domestic production and imports via sustainable trade routes, but it is worth acknowledging that food security has become a very hot topic politically. When I was elected in 2010, I highlighted food security as a very important topic in my maiden speech. It is not new to me; it is something I have been worrying about and concentrating on for most of my political career.

But we can meet these challenges. Domestic production figures have been very stable for most of this century. We produce 61% of all the food we need and 74% of that which we can grow in the UK. Those figures have changed little over the past 20 years. When food products cannot be produced here, or at least not on a year-round basis, British consumers have access to them through international trade. That supplements domestic production and ensures that any disruption from risks such as adverse weather or disease does not affect the overall security of the UK’s supply chain. I acknowledge that, as many Members have said, educating our consumers on what is seasonal and what is grown in the UK is a very healthy thing to do.

Across the UK, 465,000 people are employed in food and non-alcoholic drink manufacturing. We are proud to have a collaborative relationship with the industry, which allows us to respond to disruption effectively, as demonstrated in the response to the unprecedented disruption to supply chains during the covid-19 pandemic. DEFRA monitors food supply and will continue to do so over the autumn and winter period. We work closely with the industry to keep abreast of supply and price trends, which will be particularly important in the run-up to Christmas.

We recognise that rising food prices are a big challenge for household budgets. The latest figures for year-on-year food and drink prices show an annual rate of inflation of 14.6% in the year to September 2022, up from 13.1% in August 2022. While we remain confident in sectors being able to continue to deliver products to consumers, my Department continues to work to identify further options that will help businesses to reduce costs and pass on those savings to consumers.

The Government have committed £37 billion of support to households with the cost of living. That includes an additional £500 million to help with the cost of household essentials, bringing total funding for that support to £1.5 billion. In England, this is in the form of an extension to the household support fund, running from 1 October 2022 to 31 March 2023.

We must be prepared for the future. That is why we published the Government’s food strategy in June, setting out our plan to transform our food system, and I have a copy of it here. The hon. Member for Cambridge (Daniel Zeichner) said we had not given any thought to that; I hope he has had an opportunity to read the Government’s food strategy, to which the hon. Member for Bristol East referred. The strategy puts food security right at the heart of the Government’s vision for the food sector. It sets out our ambition to boost food production in key sectors and to create jobs, with a focus on skills and innovations, ensuring that those are spread across the whole country. Our aim is to broadly maintain the current level of food we produce domestically and boost production in sectors where there are the biggest opportunities. Setting this commitment demonstrates that we recognise the critical importance of domestic food production and the role it plays in our food security.

As the Prime Minister said only this week, at the heart of this Government’s mandate is our manifesto, which includes our commitment to protect the environment. The Government are introducing three environmental land management schemes that reward environmental benefits: the sustainable farming incentive, local nature recovery and landscape recovery.

Our farming reforms are designed to support farmers to produce food sustainably and productively, and to deliver the environmental improvements from which we will all benefit. I assure the House that boosting food production and strengthening resilience go hand in hand with sustainability—we can do all those things. We can make sure that we increase biodiversity, we can improve the environment and we can continue to keep ourselves well fed in the UK.

Although our food supply chains remain strong, some specific commodities have been affected by the invasion of Ukraine, especially sunflower oil. The Government are supporting industry to manage those challenges. For example, DEFRA worked closely with the Food Standards Agency to adopt a pragmatic approach to the enforcement of labelling rules, so that certain alternative oils could be used in place of sunflower oil without requiring changes to the labels. DEFRA will continue to engage with the seafood sector, including the fish and chip shop industry, to monitor the impacts and to encourage the adoption of alternative sources of supply, which will be of great importance to the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael).

The food strategy announced our intention to publish the land use framework, to which several hon. Members referred. We will set out our land use change principles to ensure that food security is balanced alongside climate, environment and infrastructure outcomes. We are seeking to deliver as much as we can with our limited supply of land to meet the full range of Government commitments through multifunctional landscapes.

We also need to recognise that the production of food and the support of our farmers have an impact on those landscapes. It is no coincidence that the beautiful stone walls in North Yorkshire, which tourists enjoy going to see, are there to keep sheep in. If we remove the sheep—

[Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown]

And the Cotswolds.

[Mark Spencer]

And the Cotswolds, I hear an interested hon. Member say from a sedentary position. Similarly, it is worth recognising that the beautiful rolling moors of Exmoor and Dartmoor look as they do only because of the food that is produced and the sheep that graze on them.

The food strategy also sets out the significant investments that are already being made across the food system, including more than £120 million of joint funding with UK Research and Innovation in food systems research and innovation; £100 million in the seafood fund; £270 million across the farming innovation programme; and £11 million to support new research to drive improvements in understanding the relationship between food and health. That is vital; agritech and investment in new technologies will help us on the way.

We are taking steps to accelerate innovation by creating a new, simpler regulatory regime to allow researchers and breeders to unlock the benefits of technologies. My right hon. Friend the Member for Tatton talked about her constituent who is producing an awfully large number of tomatoes—I forget how many.

[Esther McVey]

Some 650 million.

[Mark Spencer]

That could produce quite a lot of ketchup. New technologies in harvesting and production will assist those industries as we move forward. I hope that hon. Members on both sides of the House will be here to support the Genetic Technology (Precision Breeding) Bill as it passes through the House on Monday.

In the eight minutes that I have been allowed, it has not been possible to answer all the questions of Back Benchers. I think there were 11 speakers, which would have given me 40 seconds to respond to each contribution. If there are comments or questions that I have missed, however, I would be more than happy to write to hon. Members; I understand that this is a topic of great interest to hon. Members on both sides of the House.

Food has rarely been as high on the Government’s agenda. It is a critical issue and the Government are prioritising it accordingly. We have already seen the high resilience of our food supply chains, but my Department will continue to work closely with the industry to address any evolving issues. We will prepare for the future by investing in research and innovation. Our farming reforms will help to support farmers to maintain higher levels of food production, and we will protect the environment at the same time.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

The Minister’s speech prompts me to heap praise on the great farmers of the Ribble Valley. We have a lot of stone walls there too.

Agriculture in Sussex

Mark Spencer Excerpts

Tuesday 25th October 2022 Westminster Hall

[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mark Spencer)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Ms Nokes. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Caroline Ansell) for calling this debate.

Before I continue, let me refer to some of the comments made by the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Cambridge (Daniel Zeichner). Today is an unusual day. My right hon. Friend the Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Jayawardena) has left his position as Secretary of State, so I think I am currently stood here as the most senior Minister in the Department. I may seize this moment and take the power. I am sure there will be more clarity on some of the shadow Minister’s questions as the reshuffle continues.

My hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne started by giving us a tour of Sussex and talking about how much food Eastbourne consumes. That is an important place to start, because food producers should be thinking about consumers. It is an interesting twist on the whole thing, because consumers are interested in not only how much their food costs but how it is produced and whether that is environmentally friendly, as well as its impact on the environment and the landscape that they see. The view of the beautiful, rolling hills in Sussex, which she and other colleagues described, is there because of the food producers in Sussex who have created that landscape over the 4,000 years for which it has been farmed. It is important for us to remember that when we bring forward new schemes to help food producers and farmers. We should think about the impact that will have on the environment.

My hon. Friend went on to talk about food security. Never in my farming or political lifetime has food security been as important or as high on the political agenda as it is today. That is a huge opportunity for the industry, the sector and the Department to shape and influence the direction of travel. There are lots of opportunities; she referred to the ELM scheme, which is going to be a flagship moment for the Department once we have finished its short review. I hesitate slightly because a new Secretary of State will come in, but I expect that any new Secretary of State or Minister in the Department will have a close eye on the fact that we need to improve our food security. We need to grow the amount of food that we produce in the UK. However, that is not a barrier to improving our biodiversity and environmental benefits; we can do both at the same time. For decades, UK agriculture has demonstrated that it can improve efficiency and increase productivity while protecting the environment, but we need to do better.

We need to do more on biodiversity and on improving our environmental output, but of course that works only if farmers engage in the schemes and get involved. The previous iteration was quite a complicated system—there was a bit of bureaucracy in there. The shadow Minister referred to the number of people who were applying for those schemes, which is not as many as we would like. If we are to have the environmental benefit and biodiversity output, we must engage with all the food producers, ensure that they want to get involved in the schemes, make the schemes simple to apply for and make the first rung on the ladder easy to access. Once the new schemes are released, farmers will have an easy opportunity to get involved and to benefit the landscape as we want them to.

Abattoirs have featured a lot in the debate, and they are a passion of mine. Nottinghamshire, which is my home county, does not now have an abattoir within the county boundary. That is a huge disadvantage to livestock producers in Nottinghamshire. We need to do better than that, but—it is quite a big “but”—we have engaged a lot with the Food Standards Agency to ensure that we get the balance right. If we loosen regulation and make it easier for abattoirs to operate, I emphasise that we must not do so at the price of the credibility of the food sector and meat industry.

The meat industry works only because of consumers’ high level of confidence that the system will ensure that the food they consume is safe. There have been a number of occasions through history when that confidence has been rocked, such as when horse meat entered the food chain, or bovine spongiform encephalopathy, which happened early in my agricultural life. Confidence was rocked and that had huge implications. We must ensure that our system maintains the safety of our food and gives credibility to the meat industry.

[Maria Caulfield]

On abattoirs, some of my local farmers would like to export their beef, but if they were to export to places such as Singapore, the abattoirs need to meet certain specifications. That takes a lot of investment. Are there are any schemes to help exports of British beef and to enable abattoirs that want to take on that extra specification to do so?

[Mark Spencer]

Certainly. As we expand trade deals and co-operate with people around the world, that will be an important factor. To turn the point around, if we are consuming those products only in the United Kingdom, there may be some tweaks that we can look at that could help smaller abattoirs that produce only for the United Kingdom, so that they may have fewer of the checks and barriers that are necessary for exports. However, I emphasise that that is only what I would like to achieve, and we must reflect on whether it is achievable. We are engaging with the Food Standards Agency regularly to look at what we can achieve together.

My hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne talked about rural crime, which is very important. I join her in paying tribute to the Sussex police and crime commissioner, who has done great work. She referred to dog attacks, which are particularly traumatic for livestock farmers. Attacks can often lead to abortions or worse at a later date. They can be very traumatic not just for the livestock but for the farmers who find the animals after an attack. Farmers are very attached to their animals.

My hon. Friend started by talking about fertilisers—another topic that is close to my heart. We find ourselves in a very challenging position. CF Fertilisers, which currently has the only production facility in the north-east, has limited the amount of fertiliser that it is producing. It has changed to buying in ammonia to produce ammonium nitrate, rather than producing the ammonia on site. That has had a knock-on effect on the amount of available carbon dioxide, which is a very important product for the food sector. The company actually owns another factory in the north-west near the Wirral, and we have been engaging with Ministers from the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy to try to work together to encourage CF to work with other partners who may want to take that factory on. That is a work in progress. My hon. Friend can rest assured that the Department takes the issue seriously and we will try to assist if we can.

We then got on to avian flu, which is a very important topic, as highlighted by the shadow Minister. We have seen hundreds of thousands of birds—not only in the agricultural sector but wild birds—lose their life to avian flu. There is a tragedy taking place in our countryside as we stand here today. It is something the Department takes very seriously. My hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Maria Caulfield) made reference to the ministry vets, who are working day and night to try to assist farmers and get insight.

I cannot emphasise enough how important biosecurity is. It is not just about washing boots and hands before entering one of the units; it is about thinking about where the bedding is stored, because introducing bedding into the facilities is often how the flu comes in. Vermin control is very important to stop rodents making holes in sheds that can allow small birds that may be affected into the units.

My hon. Friend the Member for Lewes asked about vaccination. It is possible that vaccination has a role to play, certainly in the laying or turkey sector. In the chicken-meat system, the turnaround of the birds is very rapid, so vaccinating all those birds is often financially not rewarding. Certainly, that is something the Department is looking at and working with the NFU and other sector stakeholders on.

My hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) mentioned food security, which is an important topic. He spoke of the no-plough, minimum-tillage and no-tillage systems, which are very important. The opportunity for agritech and new technologies and systems of working is going to be fundamental if we are to increase the amount of food we produce at the same time as improving our environmental credentials and biodiversity.

I am quite excited by the opportunities that agritech will bring, whether it is robots, computers, new systems of working or a twist on some of the practices of the last 4,000 years. There is often nothing new in agriculture. We can learn a lot from the way our ancestors farmed without artificial fertilisers. My hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham made reference to the seaweed on the beaches of Sussex, which is also something the Department is looking at closely. In fact, one of my senior civil servants in the Department has just received a Nuffield scholarship to go and look at the benefits of seaweed. I am sure that in getting him into Hansard I have ensured he will buy the cakes for the Department very soon.

We finally got to vineyards, which I thought would be the main topic of the debate because Sussex is enormously proud of its vineyards. I think there are 145 vineyards in Sussex. My hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham made reference to the finest wines in the world, which some colleagues may have taken as being flippant, but it is actually factually correct. We should put on the record that the wines of Sussex have won competitions worldwide. I pay enormous tribute to the producers who have succeeded in that way.

Plumpton College is doing a lot of work to educate the next generation of wine producers and vineyard managers. That offers a huge opportunity for people to diversify into different sectors within the industry.

[Tim Loughton]

The Minister is absolutely right that they are world-beating wines, particularly the sparkling wines. He has just mentioned Plumpton College, which is an excellent agricultural college. I know it well and live close to it. Agricultural colleges have not come up so far in the debate, and they are really important. Plumpton is leading the way with its viticulture department. Most people connected with English vineyards will have had some connection with Plumpton now.

Agricultural colleges are often overlooked and neglected by our education Departments. It would be helpful if DEFRA would work more closely with the Department for Education to see how we can promote agricultural colleges and a career in agriculture as a really worthwhile career. That career will be higher skilled because of agritech and everything that has already been mentioned.

[Mark Spencer]

That is an absolutely pertinent intervention. Yesterday, I was at the launch of a new system from TIAH—the Institute for Agriculture and Horticulture—which links up all the education systems to make sure we have a continuous education process all the way through agriculture, so that young people can build a career in the industry. Education is always the answer to everything. We referred to the agritech sector; if ever there were a moment in history when we needed the brightest and most aspirational people to come into agriculture and food production, now is that moment. They need to see that career path and we need to make sure it is easy to get on and engage with.

We have had a fascinating and interesting debate. I can tell the pride this afternoon among colleagues from Sussex. They should be enormously proud of the achievements of their farmers. There are huge challenges facing them, but the Government will be there to assist them on the journey to make sure they continue to keep the people of not only Eastbourne but the whole United Kingdom fed. We will improve our biosecurity to make sure avian flu is limited. We will also improve our environmental output and make sure we improve the amount of wildlife we see in Sussex, as well as producing large amounts of food to keep us all well fed.

Post-Brexit Fisheries Management

Mark Spencer Excerpts

Thursday 13th October 2022 Westminster Hall

[Pete Wishart]

I am really grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, because I want to come on to those points and to address some of the issues he raised. He is right: there is nobody to blame any more. For years and years, it was all the fault of Brussels, the EU and the CFP; now the Minister is exclusively in charge of the details of UK fisheries. But it is the right hon. Gentleman’s debate—I did not call it “Brexit and the fishing industry”; he called it that. He did not spend all that much time discussing the impacts of Brexit on the fishing industry, so maybe I can fill that gap for him and explain a little about how we got here and where we are. He is right about what we do; it is really important that we get this right. We cannot compound misery on misery, because that is exactly what has happened just now.

[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mark Spencer)]

If the hon. Gentleman will indulge me, I will build on the point made by the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael), who called the debate. Gill netting is something that lies with Marine Scotland; it is within the control of the Scottish Government. I wonder if the hon. Gentleman will explain whether that is something the Scottish Government may do. Will they use their powers and ban gill netting in Scottish waters?

[Pete Wishart]

I am grateful to the Minister for raising that point. I was going to reserve that for later in my speech, but I will address it now because it is important. The right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland addressed it and he deserves and requires an answer to that, which I am more than happy to give him. It was not a press release; I think it was a written question by his colleague in the Scottish Parliament to the Minister, Mairi Gougeon, about gill netting in Scotland—he will correct me if I am wrong. [Interruption.] He did not quite quote it all, which is all I will say ever so gently to the right hon. Gentleman. He was accurate in the way he gave it; as reported in the response he gave, gill netting is a legitimate business. However, the thing he did not mention in his contribution is that the Scottish Government are considering this. They are looking at exactly what is happening in their waters.

I am new to this role, but I am not new to my colleagues and their instincts. I say to the right hon. Gentleman: be patient. Wait until the consultation has concluded, because we are looking at this just now. I am pretty certain, if we come back in a few months once this has been considered and we have looked at all the evidence, he may be satisfied with the outcome of these considerations. Be patient. I know Green colleagues in Shetland are standing with Liberal Democrats in order to have this addressed; this is an all-party situation. He is right that it is the responsibility of the Scottish Government, but I know my colleagues, so we will wait and see what happens. Hopefully, we will be able to put a big smile on his face when he talks about these issues in the future.

I will get back to Brexit, because that is what the debate is about. I know there is lots of interest in other issues, in things to look forward to and things we could be doing, but the right hon. Gentleman rightly said that we should have a debate about Brexit and that is what we should do. I see the Minister nodding his head in agreement, so let’s do it. Brexit has been an unmitigated disaster for UK fishing, just as it has been an unmitigated disaster for all the other sectors that have to operate in the real world of international markets, partnerships and the harsh reality of doing trade across borders.

We know this has been difficult; we have seen it in the report by the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland, which chronicles these issues only too well. We hear in the report of falling incomes as a result of increasing costs and the decreasing value of catches; we see reduced opportunities, increased paperwork and markets more or less closed. He is right that we can address the labour issues, and it is important that we do. I know it is not in the Minister’s purview and remit, but the labour issues are acute, and they must certainly be addressed. I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman for raising the issue, just as my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Angus Brendan MacNeil) consistently raises issues about crews in some of our island communities. This is absolutely pressing.

I do not know if the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland has detected this, but I am beginning to get a sense that the Government are a bit conflicted about this issue. They are beginning to realise that, for all this talk about growth zones, investment zones and growing the economy, they actually need people to do it. I think they are beginning to understand, “Right, if we’re going to have a successful economy, and we have to protect and develop sectors such as fishing, we need people to come in and do it. We have not got them just now.”

Perhaps I am just being naive, Mr Mundell, but I hope not. You will probably say, “Quite typically, you are, Mr Wishart.” I hope I am not. Perhaps the Minister will confirm this when he speaks, but I am detecting that they are getting it through their heads that people have to come in to do this work because we cannot find indigenous labour, particularly in constituencies like that of the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland and my own when it comes to things such as hospitality, hotels and farming. We need people to come to the UK to do the tasks that people living in our communities will no longer do. The only way to do that is to get people to come in from abroad.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mark Spencer)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Mundell. Let me reflect, before I get going, on the kind words said about me and my new role. Hon. Members spent about 30 seconds praising me and celebrating my appointment before they started attacking me, and I was grateful for those 30 seconds at the beginning. I also join colleagues in paying tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Victoria Prentis) and to my right hon. Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice), who as Secretary of State did an awful lot of work on the fishing sector.

There were a number of references to how dangerous it is out there on the seas. Before I respond formally, it is worth reflecting on the Guiding Star, which sank just off Shetland only last week. Fortunately, nobody was killed in that disaster, but it demonstrates just how dangerous it is on our seas.

We heard a lot today about the challenges that we face. I do not think we have heard many solutions from colleagues, but we have certainly had the challenges identified. I recognise those challenges. I pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) for securing this debate and setting out the challenges facing us, but I am up for the challenge. I want to help and support our industry to try and get us through these choppy waters and to make the most of Brexit and take back control of our waters and our industry.

As we have heard today, there is a huge challenge out there. I am conscious of the experience that we have in the room here today and in the industry, but I have confidence in the team at DEFRA. My experience, as the new Fisheries Minister, is that there is huge enthusiasm and experience among members of the team at the Department. They understand the challenges and are working very hard to navigate their way through them. They work closely with the fishing industry and other stakeholders, and that should give us confidence moving forward.

Turning to the comments that have been made, I will start with the spatial challenge. Clearly, there is huge pressure on our oceans. We heard from various people in the debate who had demands for marine protected areas and more wind turbines. All of that adds to the pressure. We cannot stack the ocean with all of these things. We cannot have our cake and eat it, so we have to find a way through that. I recognise the growing spatial tensions between sea users, including fishermen, and offshore wind, as well as the need to conserve and enhance our marine environment. We are considering the cumulative impacts of fisheries displacement, because when we move people aside or move them further, that has a cost implication. It means that people have to steam further to get to the fish stocks that they want to catch, and of course that means moving people from their traditional fishing areas, but we will get through that. We will consider the future vision and the uses of our seas in due course.

In the meantime, protecting and improving the health of the marine environment will help support a diverse, profitable and sustainable UK fishing industry. In the marine plan proposals, given the significant adverse impacts on fishing or fish habitats, we must make sure that fishing industries are helped, supported, protected and able to continue to trade.

Much reference was made to staff and access to employees—not only in the processing industry, but on the boats. One of the first things that I did when I took on this role was to engage with the Home Office to make sure that it understood the challenges we face. To that end, DEFRA continues to run its access to labour working group, with the aims of supporting recruitment, industry uptake of skilled workers and visas; improving the understanding of regulations around migrant workers; and exploring further options for automation, technology and support for domestic recruitment and retention. In English, that means we continue to work with the industry and engage with the Home Office, and it is open to that conversation. That is not a promise to deliver lots more visas, but it is a promise to work robustly with the Home Office to help support the industry.

[Mr Carmichael]

I do not think anyone is looking for “lots more visas”, to use the Minister’s words. We are looking for a visa regime that matches the skills that are needed for the crew that we are looking for. It is as simple as that.

[Mark Spencer]

I understand that. It is a skilled occupation. It is certainly something that I could not do. To work at sea I would need sea legs, and I am not sure I have those. People need skills to process fish on a boat and the resilience to work in a fridge, in effect, while bobbing up and down on the ocean.

[Jim Shannon]

It is clearly a skilled job. The number that is needed to sustain the crews of the boats for the whole of the United Kingdom is not more than 600 or 650 people, so it is a small number, but it would be key to enabling the fishing sector to move forward in a positive way. It is always good to understand what the numbers are.

[Mark Spencer]

That is very helpful. The hon. Gentleman also mentioned fuel prices and I recognise that challenge. The pressure on fishermen to go further adds to the cost of fuel, but I hope he recognises that there is support from the Treasury in reducing those fuel costs. They get tax rebates for the fuel that they are allowed to use and I hope that helps to reduce some of the costs. I think there is 100% relief on fuel duty. There is also wider investment to help make vessels more efficient and research into how they can be more efficient in respect of the size of their propellors and the types of engines they use.

Lots of challenges have been identified, not least when the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) made reference to Brexit, which is actually the topic of today’s debate. It struck me as a little ironic that we have heard lots about the challenges. The one solution we heard today was around gill netting. Now that we have left the European Union, it is within our gift to ban the use of gill netting if we choose to.

I think there was an indication that the Scottish Government are considering doing that in Scottish waters, as we speak. The ironic thing is that, if we followed the hon. Gentleman’s advice and plunged Scottish fishermen back into the EU, we would pass the power to ban gill nets back to Brussels; it could then reintroduce gill nets if the Scottish Government decided to ban them. We would hand all of that control back to the European Union to send its fleets of Spanish trawlers back into Scottish waters to use gill nets. The one thing Brexit has given us is the ability to control that ourselves.

It is a huge challenge, but at least it is our challenge to control and we have the ability to influence it. We have the ability to manage the spatial challenges and decide what goes where and how to support our fisherman. The £100 million of funding that the Government have offered is an example of our investment in those fisheries and those futures to make sure that we have a thriving sector moving forward. The first round of bidding is taking place at the moment and we will hear soon who has been successful.

Lots of challenges are on the way, but we have a Government who are up for the fight. We have a fishing industry that wants to engage with us. During my first month in the role, I visited Fraserburgh and Peterhead and heard at first hand how those in the Scottish fishing industry feel. I look forward to meeting more of the industry as I continue in this role. Of course, if I get the opportunity to visit Northern Ireland, nothing would give me more pleasure than getting over there to meet our Ulstermen as well.

As has been noted in the debate, there are significant challenges. Between Government regulators, scientists and the industry, we must continue to meet those challenges, but we must not talk our fishing industry down. We have come through the covid pandemic. We have new trading conditions and together we can find a way through this. Sometimes we can talk ourselves down and make ourselves feel negative; let us talk ourselves up a bit and be optimistic about the future. Let us co-operate across the parties and across the nations with all sectors and with those in the fishing industry.

[Mr Carmichael]

I had a sense that the Minister was coming to his peroration, so I wanted to bring him back to the point I made about co-operation with the industry in relation to scientific advice. The industry is very keen to work with the Government to ensure that there is the best possible advice—based on sound science, but available in a timely manner—to inform the decision-making process. It is not easy. If it were, it would have been done years ago. Will the Minister undertake to talk to the fishing organisations to get that workstream working properly?

[Mark Spencer]

Of course I will, and I have done so already, to be honest. There have been some challenges for Marine Scotland, and covid brought its own challenges. I think the right hon. Gentleman referred to monkfish in particular. They are bottom trawling fish that like to hide and are quite difficult to spot. Getting that data is quite a challenge. There has also been an issue with the Scottish boats getting out there to collect the data. Of course, we commit to working with the industry and finding a way through that.

Science is our friend in these circumstances. I think data and science will lead us to the right conclusions. As the right hon. Gentleman identified, there is a recommendation to increase whiting quotas by 80-odd per cent. I recognise that the industry does not think that is sustainable. We have some very skilled negotiators. There was a bit of criticism, shall we say, about our negotiating skills. That is not my experience, and it is not what I have heard. We enter into negotiations from a very informed perspective and with a clear plan, but of course so does the other side. We cannot get everything we want, but we have to find a way through. We will do our best.

[Daniel Zeichner]

I hear what the Minister says, but could he say something about the prospects for the distant fleet? They seem to have suffered out of this process.

[Mark Spencer]

I do not want to jinx us. That is the last thing I want to do going into these negotiations. I do not want to identify our red lines or what we want to achieve, because that makes our negotiating position weaker. We enter these negotiations in good faith. We recognise the fleet that the hon. Member mentioned as well as our inshore fleet. We want to do the best we can. Not only do we want to secure a sustainable quota, but we want to secure our access to the market so we can actually sell the fish we catch. That is a delicate balance, but we are very much up for the negotiation and the fight. We will be in there punching very hard for our industry.

[Jim Shannon]

The Minister is being incredibly generous in giving way, and his responses are very knowledgeable. In my contribution, I made the comment that the Northern Ireland fishing sector had not in reality received its full quota or the advantages of the quota. Probably from a different perspective, to be fair, but the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) made a point about how the quotas are distributed. Northern Ireland’s fisheries sector has felt the girth—not the girth, I mean the dearth—of the advantage that we thought and hoped we should have got through the Brexit agreement. I am happy for the Minister to come back to me on this if he is not able to answer today, but could he address that issue as well?

[Mark Spencer]

I am more than happy to come back to the hon. Gentleman with more detail on that. Let us not kid ourselves here. We could have all the quota if we wanted. We could have all the quota tomorrow, but we have to make sure we get the balance right between what we can catch in our own waters, working with our international colleagues in a sustainable way, and ensuring that we protect access to the markets to sell that fish. Reaching a balance with the market share has always been the challenge, right back to the ’70s. Colleagues will be aware that lots of the fish we catch we tend to sell, not eat, and lots of the fish we eat we tend to import. That is just because of the species we find within our own waters and the historical routes to market. We are trying to balance all those things at the same time. That is a huge, huge challenge. We are up for the fight, and we are going to deliver for the industry.

[Pete Wishart]

I expected that when the Minister got to his feet, we would hear about all the benefits of Brexit—given that this is what the debate is about—and about how he was working to ensure that we are able to assert ourself as an independent coastal community. The all-party parliamentary group on fisheries has gone to the trouble of asking people in the industry about their Brexit experience. One thing kept coming up in the report: a fisherman, when asked if the impacts he had experienced because of Brexit had been unexpected, said, “All of them,” because we were told that we would be getting the independence of our sovereign waters back, and that has not happened. What would the Minister say to that fisher?

[Mark Spencer]

I would simply say that that is not true. We have got control of our own waters and it is our choice to work with our international neighbours and friends to secure market access and the ability to sell the fish that we are catching. But at least we are in control of it; it is our right and ability to give away some of that quota to secure market access. It is also our right not to do that. That is exactly what the process that we are about to undertake—again—is about; it is ongoing.

I understand the frustration that that causes for some people in the industry, and as part of my role there is no doubt that I will upset people on that journey, because we will not get everything we want. There will also be French fishermen and Spanish fishermen who are equally grumpy about not getting all that they wanted, simply because there are not enough fish in the sea to satisfy demand.

We have to work together across an international coalition to make sure that what we do is sustainable, to make sure that our fishing fleets are sustainable, not only for this generation but for many generations to come, to make sure that we get access to the marketplace, and to make sure that we protect our marine environment at the same time. That is a very delicate balance that the Government are trying to achieve. That is what we will deliver, and I look forward to working with colleagues and keeping them informed on that challenging journey.

Oral Answers to Questions

Mark Spencer Excerpts

Thursday 8th September 2022 Commons Chamber

[Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP)]

14. What recent assessment he has made of the impact of rising costs on (a) food producers and (b) the cost of food for consumers.

[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mark Spencer)]

I draw the attention of the House to my declaration in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. I also pay tribute to the previous Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs team, who did fantastic work supporting UK agriculture, the environment and rural communities.

I can report to the House that Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine has caused huge ripples around the world in spiking energy and food costs. Food costs rose by 12.7% in this year to July, but the Government have already taken action to support farmers, pulling forward this year’s basic payment scheme payments and making sure that consumers are supported with their energy bills, with a huge package to support people with the cost of living.

[Marion Fellows]

I welcome the Minister to his new place. National Farmers Union of Scotland president Martin Kennedy has urged the new Prime Minister to immediately, on behalf of all food producers and consumers,

“address the brutal ‘here and now’ facing farming and food production whilst delivering an unequivocable commitment to the importance of food security across the UK”.

Given that the Prime Minister was formerly a DEFRA Minister, what funding support is being considered for Scottish and UK food producers, and what plans are there to ensure that affordable food is secured for consumers?

[Mark Spencer]

I hope the hon. Lady will recognise the contribution of UK farmers across generations to keeping the UK and Europe well fed for decades, which will of course continue. The Government are committed to supporting UK farmers through the use of taxpayers’ money, and I am sure that will also continue, but this is a challenge that we take very seriously and she will see that support over the coming months.

[Chris Stephens]

I welcome the Minister to his new role. Will he encourage the large supermarkets to enable community food projects such as Threehills Community Supermarket in Glasgow South West to purchase much-needed top-up supplies in bulk from their depots at as discounted a cost as possible, and can he assure the House that community food projects will be given top priority in his Department?

[Mark Spencer]

The hon. Gentleman is right to draw attention to the fact that retailers will play a huge part in solving the challenges we face, not only in the United Kingdom, but across the whole world, with the price of food going up. The Government continue to engage with those food retailers, and we will support them in any way we can to try to help our consumers. He also highlights community projects, which have a huge part to play in meeting the challenge.

[Caroline Ansell (Eastbourne) (Con)]

Local food partnerships could play an important role in providing resilience and healthy, cost-free produce to the local community. In this time of drought and water restrictions, however, South East Water has not made an explicit exemption for such partnerships, and that will really curtail their activity. Will the Minister join me in calling on the company to revisit its position—in line, I believe, with other water companies?

[Mark Spencer]

Of course those water companies have other responsibilities as well, but the use of water for agricultural food production will be fundamental to our success. My hon. Friend may be aware that there is a debate in Westminster Hall later today on food infrastructure, and she may want to come and contribute to that debate.

[Fay Jones (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con)]

I warmly welcome the new Farming Minister to his place. I am delighted to see that he has been appointed during Love Lamb Week; he certainly knows his way around a lamb dinner. The sheep farmers in my Brecon and Radnorshire constituency produce world-class food that is good for our health, our environment and the rural economy. Will he take this early opportunity to restate his commitment to the red meat sector, and may I invite him to visit one of the seven livestock markets in my constituency?

[Mark Spencer]

I contemplated denying liking a lamb dinner, but I do not want to start by misleading the House. We recognise the huge contribution that Welsh farmers make not only to lamb production, but to food supplied to our country, and I would be delighted at some point, if my diary allows, to visit Brecon and Radnorshire to see one of those livestock markets.

[Mr Speaker]

I think there will be a lot of nervous lambs in Wales awaiting that visit. Let us come to the shadow Secretary of State, Jim McMahon.

[Jim McMahon (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab/Co-op)]

First, may I welcome the new Secretary of State, the hon. Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Jayawardena), 54and his Ministers to their place? I look forward to a constructive relationship, but it will be a testing relationship, as we work through the catalogue of failures left by his predecessor.

Rocketing food costs have pushed inflation to a 40-year high and, according to the Bank of England, households and food producers are set to face harder pressures yet. Last week, I received a letter from a family bakery who are extremely worried that their energy bills are increasing by 380%, potentially risking the viability of some of their stores. An energy crisis, a food security crisis, a labour crisis and an import cost crisis—how much worse is it going to get for businesses and the 7 million people already in food poverty?

[Mark Spencer]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question and look forward to working with the Opposition Front Bench. I would strongly push back at his comments about the previous Secretary of State. The work he did to support rural communities and UK agriculture was fantastic, and we should pay tribute to him for that. Of course, Vladimir’s invasion of Ukraine has caused massive ripples. It is a global challenge, but we are in a position where the UK economy is fit, and that puts us at an advantage compared with some of our competitors around the world. We will be able to intervene to try and assist people. We have already committed to £37 billion of support for consumers, and if the hon. Gentleman waits, he will be able to listen to the Prime Minister at the Dispatch Box later today setting out her plans to support those businesses and people across the country.

[Mr Speaker]

May I welcome the SNP spokesperson, Pete Wishart, to his new position?

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

Thank you ever so much, Mr Speaker. It feels like business questions. I thought I was getting away from the right hon. Gentleman, but there is seemingly no escape. May I welcome him to his new role and congratulate the new Secretary of State? I know they have a huge inbox—they do not have to seek problems. As we have heard, there are rocketing prices for the rural economy and astronomical price rises for the consumer, and on top of that there is a fertiliser crisis, agflation in the sector and a harvest that remains unpicked because of the lack of seasonal labour. So is this the right time to pick a fight with the EU over the Northern Irish protocol, with the real risk of tariffs being introduced for the sector? Is now not the time to climb down, negotiate properly and get the best possible solution for our farmers, our producers and our consumers?

[Mark Spencer]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question; I, too, thought I had escaped him. He will be surprised to know that there is another method available to us, which the SNP does not understand. We do not have to pick a fight with everybody; we can actually talk to people and negotiate, and that is what we are doing with the EU. We are trying to build relationships rather than pick a fight with the whole world.

[Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)]

2. What recent assessment he has made of the impact of the cost of fertiliser on food producers.

[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mark Spencer)]

Fertilisers make up around 9% of input costs into food production. Cost increases may be absorbed at various points within the supply chain, but of course we should recognise that there has been a huge spike because global energy prices are going up. The Government recognise that input costs have increased and are challenging cash flow. That is why we brought forward the direct payments to try to help people with their cash flow, and we will continue to monitor that as we move forward.

[Justin Madders]

Last month my constituents at CF Fertilisers were made redundant. Within days of that happening, the company announced that it was halting CO₂ production at its plant in Billingham. I know that the Minister is new in place, but I warned his predecessors again and again that we could not afford to be in such a vulnerable position and that we should have got the company sold to the many people who are interested in purchasing it. I am so disappointed that we have got to this point, because it was completely avoidable. Will he, on behalf of his Department, apologise to my constituents who have lost their jobs unnecessarily and to everyone in the country who will be paying more for their food as a result of this very short-sighted decision?

[Mark Spencer]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. Of course, we do not want the company to be able to exploit the monopoly position it holds within the marketplace. It has ceased the production of ammonia at the plant, but it will continue to produce ammonium nitrate and nitric acid. The Government continue to engage with the plant to make sure we can secure supplies of fertiliser and other products.

[Mr Speaker]

We now come to the Chair of the Select Committee, Sir Robert Goodwill.

[Sir Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) (Con)]

I do not think the situation could be any more serious for farmers in this country, both grain farmers and grass farmers. The UK requires around 2.2 million tonnes of nitrogen fertiliser, and about 1 million tonnes of that came from the Ince plant and the Billingham plant. The Ince plant is shut and the Billingham plant is paused while waiting for deliveries of ammonia in order to switch from North sea gas. In welcoming the Minister to his place on behalf of the Committee, may I ask him to say when the first load of ammonia will arrive at Billingham and when production will commence? There is a real fear that the plant might not start, and then we will really be in serious trouble.

[Mark Spencer]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his question. That is something that we take seriously. We recognise the huge challenge to not only UK agriculture, but other sectors around the country. He will be aware that AdBlue, which many diesel cars up and down the country use, is also dependent on products of a similar nature. We will have to work together as an industry to look at other alternatives. We may have to look back at our ancestors and how agriculture operated in the ’30s and ’40s, with nitrogen-fixing crops and other agriculture methods, to solve some of the challenges that we face.

[Mr Speaker]

We now come to shadow Minister Daniel Zeichner.

[Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab)]

I, too, welcome the right hon. Gentleman to his place. I am sure that we will work constructively together, and I look forward to swapping Benches at the earliest opportunity. He knows the effect that high input costs have on farmers, whether that is fuel, fertiliser or labour. I am sure that one of the first questions he put to his civil servants was about the CO₂ impacts of the shutdown of those facilities. Rather than just reassuring us, will he publish the Department’s assessment of the CO₂ consequences of any shutdown at those plants?

[Mark Spencer]

Of course, we recognise the challenge. I have been in post for 12 hours, so I hope that the hon. Gentleman will forgive me if I have not been able to make a full assessment of the position.

[Hon. Members]

Resign!

[Mark Spencer]

It is tempting to resign, to be honest, but I will resist at this moment. We continue to have those conversations. We recognise the size of the challenge. If the hon. Gentleman gives us a small window, we will be able to make a full assessment of where we are at.

[John Nicolson (Ochil and South Perthshire) (SNP)]

3. What recent discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on tackling labour shortages in the (a) food and drink sector, (b) agricultural sector, (c) fishing industry and (d) supply chains for those sectors.

[Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP)]

11. What recent steps the Government have taken to help ensure an adequate labour supply for the (a) agricultural and (b) fishing industries in Scotland.

[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mark Spencer)]

The Government are working to ensure that UK agriculture and fishing sectors secure the labour that they need. We know that there is a shortage of labour and it is difficult for businesses across the food sector. That is why the Prime Minister committed during the leadership campaign to looking at expanding seasonal worker schemes. The Government have already expanded the number of people in the seasonal worker route to 40,000 for horticulture and poultry in 2022; we have commissioned an independent review into labour shortages in the food supply chain in England; and we launched a £10 million skills and training scheme in August 2022 to support new entrants in the fishing sector.

[John Nicolson]

Ending the freedom of movement has been a catastrophe for constituencies such as Ochil and South Perthshire, with labour shortages in every sector, especially food production. The lack of seasonal workers and the food rotting in the fields are evidence of yet more Brexit chaos. We all must surely agree that food waste is a scandal. Given that the new Prime Minister pledged to expand the seasonal worker scheme if she was elected, when will that be done?

[Mark Spencer]

I think we need to give the Prime Minister longer than 48 hours to deliver on that commitment. The hon. Gentleman would have kept us in the common fisheries policy by remaining in the EU. The country requires an immigration system that benefits the United Kingdom; we should not just have an open door to anybody who wants to come. We need to be able to select the people who will assist the UK economy and make sure that the people who come to the United Kingdom benefit the United Kingdom.

[Martyn Day]

Key sectors are facing acute labour shortages because of a Brexit that Scotland did not vote for. Salmon Scotland has reported very low unemployment and extremely limited labour availability in rural areas, with processing factories 20% light on staff. What steps will the Minister take to ensure that fishing communities and processing sites have the necessary supply of workers?

[Mark Spencer]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. As I set out, the seasonal agricultural worker scheme is a huge opportunity for people to come to the United Kingdom to support the sector, but we need to make sure that we get the right people coming to support our economy. The last thing that we should do is erect a border between Scotland and the rest of the UK—that would be a tragedy for Scotland. I hope he will reflect on trying to take Scotland out of the United Kingdom.

[Helen Whately (Faversham and Mid Kent) (Con)]

I welcome the new Secretary of State and the new farming Minister to their places. The seasonal worker scheme is essential to the fruit sector in my constituency of Faversham and Mid Kent, so can my right hon. Friend assure me that it will be not only extended, but improved—and sooner rather than later—so that British consumers can continue to enjoy British fruit?

[Mark Spencer]

My hon. Friend is a strong advocate for rural businesses in Kent. I hope she will be aware that in December 2021 the seasonal worker visa route was extended to 2024. This visa route allows overseas workers to come to the UK for up to six months each year to harvest edible and ornamental crops. In June, the Government announced that the food strategy will see the release of an extra 10,000 visas for the seasonal worker route, and this is something the Prime Minister committed to in the leadership election. We recognise the challenge, and we will do all we can to provide support.

[Craig Williams (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

I welcome the new Secretary of State and the Minister to their positions, and I look forward to working with them. A number of those at Montgomeryshire agricultural shows raised the issue of labour shortages, and while it is great to have record levels of unemployment in Montgomeryshire, we need people in our dairy farms, our abattoirs and across our food sector. Can I implore the Minister, if he is indeed enjoying a lamb dinner in Brecon and Radnorshire, to venture up to the other half of Powys and come to the biggest Welsh lamb market in the United Kingdom to talk about these important labour shortages and what we can do?

[Mark Spencer]

I realise what I have started here. Of course, I recognise the contribution that Welsh farmers are making. I think we should celebrate the fact that unemployment is so low, but in sectors such as the one my hon. Friend describes, that does bring its own challenges. We recognise such challenges, which is why we have the seasonal agricultural worker scheme, and we will be continuing to expand that as we negotiate with the Home Office to make sure the scheme works.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)]

5. What steps he is taking to ensure that rivers, inland waterways and the sea can sustain fish stocks and other marine life.

[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mark Spencer)]

The UK’s rivers and seas boast some of the greatest biodiversity and marine life anywhere in the world. The Government have prioritised protecting species, not least by leaving the common fisheries policy that did so much to damage fish stocks. We have also announced plans to reduce the sewage being discharged in our seas and rivers, and we have recently taken action to protect our precious chalk streams against drought.

[Alex Cunningham]

I hope that the Minister is aware of the ecological disaster off the coast of Teesside and North Yorkshire that has had a devastating effect on the fishing industry. Catches are now less than 10% of what they were, and it appears that a large part of our sea is dead or dying. When will Ministers recognise that they cannot rely on the conclusion that an algal bloom was probably the cause of this disaster, order a more comprehensive study into what is happening and come up with solutions to save our sea?

[Mark Spencer]

I pay tribute to the Tees Valley Mayor, Ben Houchen, who has done a lot to highlight the issue. We do have to listen to science and the scientists who have done investigations, and one of their conclusions was that the algal bloom was a huge factor. We continue to talk to bodies in the north, including the Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science, which is continuing to carry out tests on material from the north-east coast. It is a challenge that we recognise, and we will continue to work with the authorities in that part of the country.

[Mr Louie French (Old Bexley and Sidcup) (Con)]

6. What discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on the progress of the Animal Welfare (Kept Animals) Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)]

T6. Rob and Sally Mercer, in their farm near Lichfield, each week provide fresh meat, eggs, fruit and vegetables to around 250 families. They run an education project, too, and they have an established charity. I have nominated them for a National Farmers Union community farming hero award, so my challenging question to the Minister is this: does he agree with me that they should get it?

[The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mark Spencer)]

I pay tribute to Rob and Sally. Staffordshire farmers are second only to Nottinghamshire farmers in their delivery for UK food production.

[Mr Speaker]

And the great county of Lancashire.