Northern Ireland

Jeffrey M Donaldson Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)]

I will try to be brief, Mr Deputy Speaker, but you will appreciate that there is a lot the DUP would like to say today in very limited time. The regulations we are debating, known to many as the Stormont brake, touch on many important legal and political matters.

At the outset, I thank the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State and others for their continued engagement with my party and for the efforts they have made. Although at this stage we may differ in our views on the Windsor framework, I am not here to question the motivation of Ministers in seeking to make improvements, but they must—and, I hope, will—continue to work with us and others to get the further improvements that we need to enable the restoration of devolved government in Northern Ireland.

To be clear, I want to see the restoration of devolved government in Northern Ireland. My party is a party of devolution; we believe that delivering effective government for our people is the best way forward, working alongside this House and this Parliament. That is where we want to get to, but we have to get it right.

I echo the comments of the hon. Member for Stone (Sir William Cash) about the rush to bring this statutory instrument forward. I have written to the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments expressing my concern that we have not had adequate time for scrutiny of the instrument. The Government have indicated that we are not dealing just with the SI before us, but that this is also an indicative vote on the Windsor framework itself. It is therefore important that I reflect not just on what the Stormont brake does, but on where it fits in to the wider Windsor framework.

Fundamentally, for us the problem with the Northern Ireland protocol is the continued application of EU law in Northern Ireland in circumstances in which it covers all manufacturing of goods in Northern Ireland, regardless of whether those goods are being sold in the United Kingdom or to the European Union. I repeat the statistics that I quoted earlier at Northern Ireland questions: of all goods manufactured in Northern Ireland, the vast majority—some £65 billion out of £77 billion of goods manufactured—are sold in the United Kingdom. The solution must be proportionate to the difficulty, and the difficulty is the EU’s desire to protect its single market and to maintain an open border on the island of Ireland. But the price for that cannot be that Northern Ireland businesses manufacturing goods for sale in the United Kingdom are inhibited in many ways from trading within their own market.

I say to the Secretary of State, in relation to the Windsor framework, that although improvements have undoubtedly been made, we have not yet fully addressed the fundamental problem of the continued application of EU law for the manufacturing of all goods in Northern Ireland. We believe that the real solution here is similar to that proposed in the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill, which was that, where goods are being sold in and staying in the United Kingdom, United Kingdom law and standards apply, and where goods are being manufactured by Northern Ireland businesses for sale in the Republic of Ireland or any other EU member state, EU rules apply. That is the solution that we are looking for. The Windsor framework does not deliver that solution.

[Julian Smith]

On that point, and in respect of any other improvements or changes that need to be made, does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the best way to exert influence now is for Stormont to return and to be the centre of what I am sure will be ongoing improvements and iterations in this area?

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I thank the former Secretary of State for his continued interest in Northern Ireland. I say to him simply that my Ministers in the Democratic Unionist party sat in Stormont for more than a year after the protocol was implemented. We pleaded with the Government—as the Opposition spokesperson, the hon. Member for Hove (Peter Kyle), reminded the House—to intervene and do something to help us with the difficulties that the protocol was creating, but the Government did not act. I had to take action, and it was our action that brought the EU back to the table. And yes, we have made progress as a result, but more is needed.

What more is needed? To deliver the pledge given by the Government in the New Decade, New Approach agreement to protect Northern Ireland’s place within the internal market of the United Kingdom. Although the Windsor framework goes some way towards doing that in relation to the movement of goods from Great Britain to Northern Ireland, it does not deal with, for example, the real potential for divergence between EU laws that apply in Northern Ireland and UK laws that apply in Great Britain when the UK decides to change regulations that were formerly EU regulations.

There is a Bill before this House that will fast-track and significantly broaden the number of UK laws that will be changed where EU law is disapplied. That creates the potential for divergence between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. It harms our ability to trade with Great Britain, it harms the integrity of the internal market of the United Kingdom, and the Windsor framework does not address that problem, which we need to see addressed. I say to the right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith) that I want to see Stormont up and running, but we need the Government to deliver the commitment that they made when he was the Secretary of State to protect our place in the internal market of the United Kingdom.

[John Redwood]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that because the EU will have powers over things such as VAT and state aid in Northern Ireland, it will also have powers on a drag-through basis over the whole United Kingdom? Does the whole United Kingdom not need a veto?

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman. That is why we need a solution that enables the United Kingdom Government and this Parliament to regulate the entirety of the United Kingdom internal market. That is the solution. I am not saying that where Northern Ireland businesses trade with the European Union, EU standards and rules should not apply; I am saying that we can allow for that. What I do not accept is a situation where every business in my constituency must comply with EU rules even if they do not sell a single widget to the European Union. That is wrong, because it harms our place in the internal market of the United Kingdom.

The Stormont brake seeks to address the democratic deficit that I have mentioned, and to an extent, it provides a role for Stormont to pull that brake where changes to EU law occur, but I note that it does not give us any ability to deal with existing EU laws that impact on all manufacturing in Northern Ireland—laws that have been applied without our consent. To that extent, the brake cannot apply. It applies to amendments to EU law or changes new EU laws that are introduced.

I also note that in the proposed arrangements, it is available to the EU to take retaliatory action in the event that the UK Government apply a veto to a new EU law. That is a matter of concern to us in Northern Ireland, because retaliatory action could come in a number of forms. It could include the suspension of arrangements in the green lane, which would impact our ability to bring goods from Great Britain to Northern Ireland. We need to be clear that it is wrong for the EU to be able to intervene at that level in the free flow of goods from one part of the United Kingdom to the other. I highlight that issue as a real matter of concern to us.

[Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)]

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I will.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Before you take this intervention, Sir Jeffrey, I remind you that you have now been speaking for nine minutes. Once you have resumed your seat, I will introduce a three-minute time limit to get as many Members in as possible. Please be cognisant of that.

[Gavin Robinson]

My right hon. Friend will know about the exchange that the Secretary of State and I had yesterday in the European Scrutiny Committee, where he was invited to indicate that the “exceptional circumstances” in paragraph 18 in the schedule to the Stormont brake regulations would preclude a material consideration being the EU retaliatory action to which my right hon. Friend has referred. The Secretary of State was quick to agree with that interpretation. May I ask, through my right hon. Friend, whether the Secretary of State will consider reaffirming the commitment that he gave yesterday? It features in paragraph 14; it does not feature in paragraph 16. Just to be clear: the Secretary of State would not be allowed to consider the threat of retaliatory action as “exceptional circumstances” when exercising a veto.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I welcome what the Secretary of State said yesterday: that we must not allow the threat of EU retaliatory action to influence Ministers in exercising their powers under the Stormont brake. I also welcome the clear commitment the Prime Minister gave to me recently: that the application of the Stormont brake is entirely a matter for the United Kingdom. It is a strand 1 issue under the terms of the Belfast agreement and does not involve a role for the Irish Government in relation to these matters. That is a very important principle for us.

The Prime Minister has indicated to me that in this process the wishes of Stormont will be respected, but I have made it clear that in exercising the Stormont brake we are simply applying in our terms the potential of a veto by the United Kingdom Government on one aspect of EU law. This does not deal with all of the problem, and that is the difficulty we have. The continued application of EU law in Northern Ireland is what creates the problem in our ability to trade within the internal market of the United Kingdom.

It is important that the Government of the United Kingdom take stock of where we are now. I understand that the Foreign Secretary is to attend the UK-EU Joint Committee on Friday to sign off the Windsor framework, and that today’s indicative vote in this House will be used as the justification for doing so. Surely though, our shared objective, as espoused earlier by the former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith), is to see the political institutions in Northern Ireland restored; we need therefore to continue to engage with the Government to get this right.

My party is committed to doing that. We are committed to continuing to work with the Secretary of State and with the Prime Minister, but that has to be about delivering on the commitment given to protect Northern Ireland’s place within the internal market of the United Kingdom, and to ensure that where EU law is applied to facilitate cross-border trade, it does not impede our ability to trade with the rest of our own country in the internal market of our own country. That is the bottom line for us, and until that is resolved, I cannot give the Government a commitment to restore the political institutions. It is what I want to do, but we need to get this right. I want Stormont to be restored on a sustainable and stable basis, where there is cross-community consent and consensus, but that does not exist at the moment. We need that consensus to be restored.

For our part, we will continue to work intensively to solve these issues, doing so in the knowledge that what has already been achieved was achieved because we were not prepared to accept the undermining of Northern Ireland’s place within the Union of the United Kingdom—the economic Union of the United Kingdom. That is what we stand for. That is what we will fight for. We want to get it right, and we will work with the Government to achieve that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP)]

In the very short time I have, I will make a number of brief points. We do not like the Stormont brake, for a number of reasons. I would never have agreed the Stormont brake, because I think it damages and clouds the investor proposition; it has no specific role for the human rights or equality commissions; and the brake can be pulled before the committee can even finish its work on scrutiny. Most importantly, given the number of years I spent in Stormont, I think it is a very bad idea to give the DUP a veto over anything.

I also want to say something about some of the people in this House who will vote against this motion today—former Prime Ministers and members of the European Research Group, all of whom supported the protocol which had no Stormont brake and far more checks for businesses. They are more interested in internal Tory politics than they are in the wishes and interests of the people in Northern Ireland, and I urge the DUP to learn the lesson of the past few years. The people who the DUP Members can trust—the people who want to work with them—are sitting right here on these Benches. They are not over there on the Back Benches of the Tory party.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I thank the hon. Member for giving way. I just want to say two things: first, the people we trust are the people who elected us to stand for them. Secondly, as the hon. Member will well know, the veto that was given to the DUP was given to us by the people of Northern Ireland, who voted in a referendum for the Belfast agreement. That includes a veto for Unionists, and therefore when he decries that, he is decrying the agreement that his party supported.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Jeffrey M Donaldson Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 22nd February 2023 Commons Chamber

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)]

I echo all right hon. and hon. Members’ tributes to young Dáithí and his family, including his father, Máirtín, who is here with him. I had the pleasure of meeting them both at Lisburn in my constituency, and the case they brought was absolutely compelling. I welcome the Secretary of State’s decision to bring forward the amendments to the Bill. As you will know, Madam Deputy Speaker, I, the hon. Members for Foyle (Colum Eastwood) and for North Down (Stephen Farry) and other colleagues—in fact, all the sitting Members of the House from Northern Ireland—signed a cross-party proposal similar to the one brought forward by the Government. However, we are more than willing to support the Government’s proposal to ensure that enabling legislation is put in place to allow the Secretary of State to lay regulations implementing the necessary provisions, including the definitions of prescribed organs that are covered by the deemed consent. We very much support moving forward in that way.

I note the Secretary of State’s comments about the Assembly and the Executive. I am clear that we want to get a functioning Executive and Assembly up and running as soon as possible. He will know that when I took the decision last February to withdraw the First Minister from the Executive, I felt it was a measured response to the inactivity and failure of the EU to engage with the Government meaningfully to bring forward proposals that would address the concerns of Unionists. That enabled Ministers to remain in their Departments right up until the end of October, when, under the legislation, they could no longer remain in office. I understand why the Secretary of State has brought forward this Bill to extend the period for holding an election. Let me be clear that Democratic Unionist party Members do not fear going to the people; if and when an election is called, we will take our case to them. I noted the Secretary of State’s comment that he wants to create the space within which progress can be made—in that spirit, so do we. We are engaging with the Government on the vital matters that now need to be resolved to enable an agreement to be reached with the EU, one that we expect will result in fundamental change.

We are talking about change that will, first and foremost, respect Northern Ireland’s place within the United Kingdom. That is not just a requirement on the part of the Unionist community in Northern Ireland, but one of the fundamental principles at the heart of the Belfast agreement signed in 1998. Section 1 of that agreement deals specifically with respecting the constitutional status of Northern Ireland and the principle of consent, and we need to see that fully restored. As I said to the Prime Minister earlier, it is important that we are dealing with not only the trading issues that are the consequence of the protocol and its imposition, but the democratic and constitutional issues that flow from the protocol—the democratic deficit and Northern Ireland’s place within the UK.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

Let me ask about the space that, we hope, has been created to make progress. In the past, whatever the whys and wherefores, where a substantial segment of the community in Northern Ireland was prepared to resist, oppose and declare that they did not like the way politics worked in Northern Ireland, an accommodation had to be found to try to ensure that a new regime accommodated that view. Does my right hon. Friend agree that as we try to make progress in that space today, Unionists have to be afforded exactly the same position, whereby we reach an accommodation where both major blocs and everyone else buys into the process on which we build for the future?

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend on that. He rightly says that at the heart of this is the need to take Northern Ireland forward on the basis of a cross-community consensus and that that consensus was broken down by the protocol, because not a single Unionist Member of the Assembly supports it. Therefore, we did not have a basis for moving Northern Ireland forward. That is important because the Executive and Assembly have important roles to play in the implementation of the protocol. I had Ministers, members of my party, who were in Departments and being required by the protocol to implement key elements that they felt were harmful to Northern Ireland. That was simply not a sustainable position. I do not want to be in the place again where I have to appoint Ministers at Stormont to Departments where they are required to implement measures that harm Northern Ireland’s ability to trade within the UK.

For us, the way to resolve the issues and move us forward lies in restoring Northern Ireland’s place within the internal market of the UK. Let me be clear that, as we have said from the outset, we are not looking to erect a hard border on the island of Ireland. I am not looking to create barriers to trade between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland; I do not want that for dairy farmers in Lagan Valley, beef farmers or whoever is wanting to continue with the arrangements that are there to facilitate cross-border trade. Coca-Cola is based in Lisburn in my constituency, and the Secretary of State visited recently. Some 80% of the products it produces in Lisburn are sold in the Republic of Ireland. I do not want Coca-Cola to have difficulty in trading both within Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Equally, I do not want the businesses in my constituency that have been impacted by the protocol to be inhibited in their ability to trade with the rest of the UK. The protocol inhibits that and that is the difficulty it creates.

[Ian Paisley]

This is an important issue. On Monday, my right hon. Friend, along with a number of Members from across the House, was able to attend the “Taste of Northern Ireland” event held in the Jubilee Room. Producers and food providers from all across Northern Ireland represented their trade there. One message that came out clearly from that was that trade in agrifoods is our biggest industry and it is being undermined by the regulations coming through from the EU. Those regulations must be shifted, and I am sure he welcomed the Prime Minister’s comments today that the regulations have to be part of this solution, if there is to be one.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. He has many farmers and some of the largest agrifood businesses in his constituency, and I know that some of his local farmers have had problems. They cannot bring seed potatoes from Scotland and that is having an impact on the potato sector in Northern Ireland. Some of his local farmers will have experienced difficulties when taking cattle to Scotland for sale and having to bring some of them back because they have not been sold at market; they face six weeks’ quarantine in part of the UK, in Scotland, before they can bring those cattle back to Northern Ireland. That is ridiculous, and those are the kinds of practical issues that we need to resolve.

[Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab)]

These are indeed serious problems. I also went to that fantastic event on Monday. Many of the people I spoke to there had started their businesses in the past three to five years, since Brexit. The demand for Irish produce in Northern Ireland, across the island and internationally—it is being sold into Fortnum & Mason, and Harrods—is inspirational, and it is thriving. It is important that we celebrate those successes and the opportunities that some of us believe can come from the arrangements on offer from the EU and the negotiations that we want the Prime Minister to conclude. There is huge opportunity here and many of us want to see that for the people and the industries in Northern Ireland.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention and her continuous interest in Northern Ireland, which I know comes with family connections. She is right to say that we can walk into some of the largest stores in London and find butter from Dromara in my constituency and meat from Moira in my constituency. We are so proud that we make up 3% of the UK’s population and yet we feed almost one in five of the UK through our agrifood produce, which is of the highest quality. Of course, we want to preserve and protect it. We do see the opportunity to expand and grow our business and economy, and we welcome new businesses that are starting up. However, we also need to resolve the difficulties in trade and the barriers that have been erected as a result of the protocol. We believe they are unnecessary, both in terms of protecting the single market of the EU and being harmful to protecting the internal market of the UK.

I welcome the Prime Minister’s earlier comment that we are not talking here about tinkering around the edges. As I said in my party conference speech last year, this is about not just trade across the Irish sea but the application of EU law and how it inhibits our ability to trade within the UK. Fundamentally, that is what needs to be addressed. There is no need for EU law to apply on goods that are not leaving the internal market of the UK. We look to the Government now to bring forward a solution that addresses that issue, but it must go further than that.

On numerous occasions, I have referenced what we call the “democratic deficit”, by which I mean the fact that in Northern Ireland laws apply over which we have no say and on which we have no input. That is simply not acceptable. The Belfast agreement talks about the political and economic rights of the people of Northern Ireland. I would argue strongly that the protocol undermines our political and economic rights—specifically, our rights to legislate for the people who elect us. Although I understand the frustration that the Secretary of State mentioned in his speech about the non-functioning of the Executive, I want to be clear that, if the Executive are to function again, it cannot be on the basis that we are law takers.

[Simon Hoare]

The right hon. Gentleman and I have had a very similar view on the democratic deficit point, because we are both democrats. When the Committee went to Brussels 24 months ago, or thereabouts, the EU was very alert to that issue as well and pointed us in the direction of Norway to see how it deals with these matters—I am not saying that we should overlay that template. Does he see any merit in the way that the EU and the Government of Norway deal with the issue, with the rules applying, although Norway is not a member of the European Union, as a way of ensuring that Norwegian voices are heard? In the same way, the EU would want Northern Irish voices to be heard. Is there anything within that model that he thinks might work or help?

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I thank the Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee for that point. Of course, Norway is a sovereign country; Northern Ireland is not. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, and it is the Government of the United Kingdom who are the sovereign authority in these matters. We need to look at this not just at the level of our democratic institutions in Northern Ireland, but in relation to the mechanisms for the Government of the United Kingdom to intervene in circumstances where the UK’s internal market, and Northern Ireland’s place within it, is threatened by EU laws—whether they be changes to existing laws or new laws that are introduced. We cannot have a situation where, in respect of our trade across the Irish border, EU laws that apply to that trade impact on our ability to trade within the internal market of the United Kingdom. We certainly cannot have the situation that has arisen with the protocol, where article 6 of the Acts of Union, which govern the economic union of the United Kingdom and our place in it, is impliedly repealed by this House. That must be avoided in the future. In any arrangements, we need to have a safeguard that protects article 6 of the Acts of Union—our right to trade within the internal market of the United Kingdom without barriers being put in our way.

As I draw my remarks to a close, may I say that the reason we are here is that the protocol has undermined the cross-community consensus that is necessary, which my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) referenced in his comments, to ensure that we have stable, functioning institutions in Northern Ireland. We are approaching the 25th anniversary of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, so let us not also lose sight of the successor agreements. We know that at St Andrew’s, at Hillsborough and at Stormont we have had to make changes that improve the way that Northern Ireland is governed. I have heard in recent days clarion calls to look again at the way in which our institutions operate and the principles at the heart of the agreement.

Let me put down a very clear marker on behalf of my party and, I believe, on behalf of Unionism generally: if the road that some want to take on reform is exclusion; if the road that some want to take on reform is majority rule; if the road that some want to take abandons the principle of cross-community consensus in Northern Ireland, that will not be acceptable to my party now or at any stage in the future. It is those principles that are essential to ensure that there is cross-community support for our political institutions in Northern Ireland. I say to the Government that, while we will look at what change can be made to improve the governance of Northern Ireland, we will not countenance the abandonment of that cross-community consensus that is at the heart of our institutions. In that respect, I welcome the comments made by the shadow Secretary of State that that is also the position of the Labour party. I recognise, too, the contributions that Tony Blair and others made to bringing the agreement together and the very delicate balances at the heart of that agreement. They must be protected as we go forward.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I hope that, within the timeframe that this Bill creates between now and next January for an election, we will see an outcome on negotiations and legislation that will bring fundamental change that will respect and restore Northern Ireland’s place within the United Kingdom and its internal market, that will ensure that we are not in a situation where we are rule takers from the EU and where EU law affects our ability to trade within the United Kingdom. That is not acceptable. Where we trade within our own country, the rules that apply should be those of the United Kingdom. Where we trade with the European Union, the rules that apply should be those of the European Union. That is clear. The protocol does not deliver that, and we need a solution that does.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

May I remind Members that if they intervene during a speech, they should stay for the entirety of that speech, in case something they have said is referred back to. Sadly, those who are guilty of this have probably left the Chamber, but we can remind them when they return.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I admit that I was unaware of that case, but I like to think that we would address all the significant issues that occur around medicines in general. I am afraid that the hon. Lady will have to wait, as will everyone else, for the conclusion of the ongoing talks and negotiations.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson) made a number of points with which I concur, and I look forward to our continued conversations. He spoke of a “Taste of Northern Ireland” event that he attended on Monday evening, which alas, because of other matters—he might guess what they were—I could not attend. I was provided, however, with some of the products that I could have tasted had I been able to attend. It must have been a very warm evening in the Jubilee Room, because most of the liquid in the bottle of Irish whiskey that I was sent seemed to have evaporated. I hope that I can have a taste of the wee dram that remains when I finish with dry February.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I thank the Secretary of State for his reference to the Taste of Ulster event. The distillery that presented the whiskey is Hinch Distillery in my constituency, and the Secretary of State would be more than welcome to come with me on a visit. I am sure that we can replenish that which he has lost.

Northern Ireland Budget Bill

Jeffrey M Donaldson Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 23rd January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I simply rise on behalf of my party to thank the Minister and his officials in the NIO for the work they have done on this Bill. I want to thank Jayne Brady and Neil Gibson in particular, and their colleagues across all the Departments in the Northern Ireland civil service.

To be honest, we would much prefer that these decisions were being taken by Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive. I assure the Minister, in response to what he said earlier, that if the UK Government do their bit and deliver a deal, an outcome or legislation here at Westminster that resolves the problems and difficulties created by the protocol and that meets our seven tests, we will not be found wanting. We will ensure that Ministers are appointed to the Executive not only to get on with the job, but to address the real issues that need to be addressed to enable better and more effective delivery of public services in Northern Ireland, to reform of our public services in Northern Ireland, and to drive forward the growth agenda to develop our economy, because we want prosperity to be the mark of Northern Ireland for the future.

We will need the Government’s help with that; we will need the Government to help deploy the levers that will be required to transform our economy. I do not want Northern Ireland in the future to be dependent on the Treasury to fund our public services to a far greater level than the other parts of the United Kingdom. I want Northern Ireland to stand on its own two feet; I want Northern Ireland to prosper and our economy to grow. But to do that, and to see the institutions restored, we need to resolve the issues around the protocol, and the sooner that happens the better.

I thank the Minister for the contribution he and his colleagues are making in that endeavour, but I say again what I said at the weekend: let us not have half measures; let us get this job done, get it done right, and get it done once and for all so we can move forward together.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Roger Gale)]

I call the shadow Secretary of State.

Northern Ireland Budget Bill

Jeffrey M Donaldson Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 23rd January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Hove (Peter Kyle). I think we could have waved at each other last week when he was trapped somewhere in Derry/Londonderry as we went over the hills to get there. At least we are all back safely and able to speak in this afternoon’s debate.

Here we go again. Once again, Northern Irish exceptionalism has to come into play and this place has to step in to fill a gap. My hon. Friend the Minister of State was absolutely right when he said that if this were the service being given to his or, indeed, my constituents in North Dorset, not only would questions be asked in the House, but there would be real and tangible anger. People would feel a sense of abandonment. I think there would also be a growing sense of, “We are the public and we need and want public service, but that can only be delivered at the political level. If the politicians we have do not want to do it, give us the opportunity and we will find some who will.”

There will always be ultras in this sort of debate. I well remember talking to an SNP friend from the 2015 intake when the price of oil was absolutely on the floor. I hope you will give me a moment to expand on this point, Madam Deputy Speaker, before you start wondering, “Where the hell is he going with this?” I said, “You must be rather pleased that Scotland decided to stay part of the United Kingdom in the referendum. We’re able to support you and so on because your income as an independent Scotland would have been down as a result of the collapse in oil prices.” A steely glint came into the eye of this person, who must remain nameless—and I can see a steely glint coming into the eye of the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Brendan O’Hara), who will speak on behalf of the SNP in this debate—and he said, “Simon, you’re right: the quality of public services would fall. Things would be difficult, and we would have to take difficult decisions, but we would be doing it with an independent Scottish people in an independent Scotland, and that is a price worth paying.”

There will be some who will always say that the price is worth paying—people whose fixed point of principle on one side or the other is so important to them that, no matter how much suffering and pain are occasioned, they believe that it is a price worth paying. I respect those two positions—we always have to have extremes in any debate—but I do detect, as I mentioned in my intervention on the Minister, a growing sense across the communities of Northern Ireland of real anger and disappointment at the failure of politicians to rise to the occasion and to deliver the public service that they expect.

The shadow Secretary of State was right to point out some of the problems that this process, by definition, generates in Northern Ireland. The Government are to be commended for bringing forward the Bill—a common sense act by a sensible Government. But the problem we are going to have—this has been tested in the courts—is that there will be huge reticence among the civil servants. I do not criticise civil servants for that in any way, shape or form, but they will only be able to deliver policies that have already been agreed. If they act ultra vires, there would be a problem because this has been tested in the courts and we know how they ruled on it. Moreover, some of these policies—not all of them—are analogue for a digital age. They do not reflect the cost of living crisis, energy costs and the increase in inflation. They do not reflect the need for fleet action to fill the gaps and address the problems created as a result of covid in education and health, although not exclusively those two things. We need a local Northern Ireland Budget set by Northern Irish politicians in Northern Ireland, reflective of and given cognisance to what they are hearing on their own doorsteps. This process, by its very definition, cannot meet that challenge.

I want to speak briefly about what we, as a Committee, heard from both sides of the community in our visit last week. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Swindon (Sir Robert Buckland) referenced the very real concerns about the absence of a multi-year settlement. We heard from an organisation whose main funding was from the Northern Ireland Office and Stormont. The NIO part of its funding had been agreed and signed off—it knew it had it. It had no idea at all what it would get out of this budgetary process. No idea at all. Notices were going out to their paid staff to say, “We may have to make you redundant. We hope we won’t have to. We hope we will get the money, but we do not know.”

These are not institutions or organisations teaching origami, advanced flower arranging or contract bridge for the winter months. These are organisations that are stepping in for peace building and community building. They are community-led. They are working to help women who find themselves, as the BBC “Spotlight” programme showed, caught in a cycle of the cost of living, leading them to default to extortionist money lenders of the so-called paramilitaries, only to find they cannot pay the money back. They then have to resort to criminal behaviour, being forced to give sexual favours as payment in lieu or seeing their children brought into the ambit of influence of these paramilitaries as a way of paying off debt.

Those groups, which are so dependent upon the money that this Budget could provide and that Stormont could reflect, now find their work in jeopardy. I encourage female Members of this place to take a growing interest—I know many do, including the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi)— in the impact of the budgetary pressures and other deficiencies in the delivery of public services for the women of Northern Ireland. I make no judgment on the merits, but this House has focused on that issue merely in access to abortion services.

There are a hell of a lot of other things going on—bad things—for the young women of Northern Ireland and, by definition, their young children. They look to those organisations to help them and to protect them, to help them be better parents and to keep their kids on the right path. I think we heard from every single organisation that we met—my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Swindon confirms that—the anxiety about the effect that this absolute abdication of the delivery of public service is having and will have.

My hon. Friend the Minister will also know of the potential poor budgetary settlement for the Police Service of Northern Ireland, which will have ramifications across the whole of Northern Ireland. They need to do so much in order to build on those peace foundations laid 25 years ago by the Belfast-Good Friday agreement. They will have to make a choice. Everybody in this House will understand and readily applaud the determination to continue community policing. We all know the merits of good community policing in our own communities, and those are magnified still greater in Northern Ireland. But you will not be able to have good community policing and good criminal policing. Something will have to give. The hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) was right to say that there is no magic wand, and Stormont would not, by itself, have the answer to all these problems, but—by God!—notwithstanding the absence of that magic wand, are not the people of Northern Ireland hampered yet further by not having in place MLAs who can take to officials and to debates what they hear on the doorsteps, or in their church halls?

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)]

At the beginning of 2020, in “New Decade, New Approach”, the UK Government committed to addressing the issue of police numbers in Northern Ireland, and to helping the Northern Ireland Executive with the funding necessary. The Assembly and Executive were restored on that basis. From early 2020 until October 2022, the UK Government failed to deliver on their commitment. The Treasury would not provide additional funding to enable the recruitment of extra officers, despite that being an NDNA commitment. Does the Chairman of the Select Committee understand our frustration? We keep hearing that if we had the Assembly and the Executive back, we could address those issues, but there are many examples where that is not the case. Not least of those is the issue of the UK internal market and the protection of our place in it—another key part of NDNA that was not delivered. This Parliament and Government are not innocent when it comes to these issues.

[Simon Hoare]

I very much agree, and I wrote to the PSNI only today, following our visit, asking it to put in writing in more detailed terms what we heard last week, so that the Select Committee and this place can better understand the implications of that for policing in all its guises. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that those on the Treasury Bench need to step up and honour the agreements reached in “New Decade, New Approach”.

I have always felt that the slight fault line is that when there is a problem or impasse, people say, “I know—we’ll have an agreement! It will promise almost all things to all people; there will be something in it for everybody.” Then they say, “But, you know, we didn’t really mean it. We were just using it as a device—a negotiation stepping stone to get us from one side of the river to another,” and, “Oh, you mean that we will be held accountable for delivering that?” I think in this instance they will be. The right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues from across the parties in Northern Ireland need no lectures or lessons from me on the huge damage that would be done to community safety, and the criminality that would arise, if the PSNI was not functioning. He can rest assured that as soon as I receive that missive from the PSNI, either the Committee will look at the matter still further and go into detail on it, or I will raise the matter with the Treasury and the Secretary of State.

Let me conclude by picking up a thread from the right hon. Gentleman’s intervention—and this points to what was said by the hon. Member for North Antrim. There is no goose that lays golden eggs—we know that—and there is nobody who advocates for the speedy return of Stormont. Nobody is suggesting that that would solve all the problems of Northern Ireland. However, the fact that an organisation cannot do all the good, all the time, should not stop it from trying to do as much good as it can, as long as it is there to do it. That is the fundamental choice.

DUP Members are fed up, and they are fed up with me saying this—I will not even ask them to nod in support, because I know they are. They are nodding, but they do not even know what I am going to say. It is this: Members on the Treasury Bench have made the error of allowing issues and concerns about the protocol to be conflated with the delivery of functioning devolution. They are two very separate work streams. The protocol offends some in Northern Ireland, but the absence of Stormont affects all, and that is what we should be focused on.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sammy Wilson]

The point I was making—the Minister knows this, because we have raised it here on a number of occasions—is that the responsibility did lie with the Northern Ireland Executive. The Foreign Office did not like the decisions that Democratic Unionist party Ministers in the Executive made on the protocol infrastructure and only recently have taken over the responsibility to implement that. Even before that happened, civil servants—I do not know whether they did this at the prompting of officials or Ministers in the Foreign Office—were already making decisions about clearing sites in my constituency to build border posts.

The last point I would—

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)]

Surely it is even more serious than that. The reality is that the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly are now in a position where they have to administer laws that are not even created by this Parliament, never mind by the Assembly itself. This applies in more than 300 areas of law; the way we administer, for example, our ability to trade with the rest of the UK is now determined by a foreign polity, the EU. It imposes laws on Northern Ireland, on which we have no say; there is no scrutiny and no accountability for those laws. So the democratic deficit in Northern Ireland is very real to the Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive and is one of the fundamental reasons why we do not have functioning political institutions, because our party is not prepared to tolerate a situation where we are treated like an EU colony.

[Sammy Wilson]

Until that situation is revolved, we are going to be faced with the kind of situation we are discussing today. What amazes me is that other parties in the Assembly, which equally will have no say on those laws, meekly accept those powers being taken from them and not being available to them. I have heard many debates in this Chamber about the Government snatching power from devolved Administrations on various Bills, yet we find that some parties in Northern Ireland are happily accepting that they should not have the ability to make decisions on matters that will greatly influence the lives of ordinary people.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sammy Wilson]

The hon. Gentleman continually raises this issue—sometimes taking a whining approach as well—but under the Executive I remember money going to the airport at Londonderry, Altnagelvin hospital getting the cancer centre and money being allocated for the road from Londonderry—

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

And for the university.

[Sammy Wilson]

I am thinking only of my own experience. Actually, the road was cut because the Irish Government said they were not going to make their contribution to it.

[Colum Eastwood]

It is interesting that people in Derry are entitled to some Government funding—thank you very much! My constituency has the highest unemployment, the highest claimant count and the highest household overcrowding, and it has five of the 10 most deprived areas in Northern Ireland. Maybe some work was done, and maybe some money was spent outside the Greater Belfast area, but it has not had the impact that some might claim.

If people think it is good enough or acceptable just to say that we will throw a few quid at people in Derry—people who have been left behind—after many decades, they are absolutely wrong. The New Decade, New Approach agreement was referenced earlier, and this Government have a responsibility for some of the commitments in it. I think of the expansion of Magee—there is still no funding for that from the Government. There is the Brandywell stadium—there is still no funding for that from the Government. And there is the Northlands addiction centre—we have had promise after promise, but the money is still not in a bank account.

Frankly, I find it difficult to watch people jumping up from their seats and giving excuse after excuse as to why it would not make any difference if we were in government, when people are literally dying on trolleys right now because they cannot get access to the health service. We are abdicating our responsibilities as elected representatives for the people.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

The hon. Member consistently attacks the Democratic Unionist party, but might I remind him about the history of his own party? When people were dying on the streets of Northern Ireland in their thousands, his party refused to take its seats at Stormont and participate in a functioning Assembly for very many years. He will argue there were valid reasons for that, but he should at least respect that if we are going to sort out our problems in Northern Ireland, Unionists also have an entitlement and a right to have valid reasons not to participate in institutions when they feel that their rights have been undermined and diminished.

[Colum Eastwood]

That is astonishing, given the fact that we had the Sunningdale agreement, where we had people working in those institutions. They were brought down, frankly, by people associated with the right hon. Gentleman’s political party and other Unionists. That accusation thrown at the Social Democratic and Labour party for not wanting to make institutions work is coming from someone who walked away in the dying hours of the negotiations to bring about the Good Friday agreement. That agreement had to be brought about because the three strands—the three sets of relationships—had to be recognised. We could not have an internal settlement in Northern Ireland without north-south institutions and institutions that recognise the east-west dimensions to our relationships as well, and it is absolutely ridiculous to state otherwise. We now have people in the DUP using the Good Friday agreement as a reason why they cannot go back into government. It is absolutely astonishing, it is wrong and it is an attempt to pull the wool over people’s eyes.

We all, in all our communities and constituencies, should recognise that the European social fund, for example, has gone. That was £40 million into communities, supporting 1,700 jobs and activity right across every single community. The British Government are proposing to give us half of that back, even though they told us that we would not lose a single penny as a result of Brexit. That is 800 jobs in the community and voluntary sector gone. We have councils across Northern Ireland right now considering massive rates hikes, which will put more pressure on ratepayers and small businesses, and it will mean that workers in those small businesses, many of whom are already on the breadline, will lose their jobs.

We also have an opportunity missed today—I think the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson) and every other political leader in Northern Ireland will agree with me on this, because they all signed a letter about it—to implement the organ donation law known as Dáithí’s law. The Government missed the opportunity, and I ask them to revisit that. The work done by young Dáithí, his whole family and the people around that campaign deserves support from this Government.

I also put on record my condolences to Alex Easton, his whole family and his family circle. It is an awful tragedy to happen to anyone, and I cannot imagine what that family is going through.

We have proposed a change to the rules around how a Speaker would be elected, which I think could get the Assembly back up and running and at least see Committees meeting. It will not see an Executive up and running, but that is down to a political decision by the DUP. The DUP tells us that the basis of the Assembly is consensus—well, not in my experience. I do not remember an awful lot of consensus in the Assembly in the nine years I was there. The principle of consent is the basis for the Good Friday agreement, and it is a very different thing.

I am saying, as an Irish nationalist who thinks that all these economic and social outcomes will be better in a new Ireland—I think we will get there sooner than some people think, and I thank some of the people sitting to my left for that—and who wants to bring about constitutional change, that the principle of consent is sacrosanct. It is not going anywhere, and it is not changing. This pretence that we have been taken out of the United Kingdom and nobody noticed is the basis of the boycott of the Executive, but I must have missed the victory party, if we are now all in a united Ireland. I did not notice.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

Now you’re being childish.

[Colum Eastwood]

No, I am not being childish. The DUP’s argument is that this is a constitutional rupture and the people of Northern Ireland have been taken out of the United Kingdom. That has been said twice by DUP Members in this debate, and it is simply not true. If that is what they want to tell people, it is a very strange way of being a Unionist.

My view is that the Assembly is there to deal with all the problems we have in the health system and the education system. I want to see a united Ireland, and I will work to make that happen, but I have to convince enough people and we have to have a referendum, and that is when the principle of consent comes into play. The two things should not be conflated. A political decision has been made by the DUP, and there are consequences for it. My view is that the DUP has to own those consequences.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Steve Baker]

With the leave of the House, I am glad to respond to the debate.

First and foremost, I join other hon. Members in offering condolences to Alex Easton, whose parents Alec and Ann tragically died in a fire in Bangor earlier today. I know the whole House will want to put on record our shared sorrow at this news, and to thank the emergency services who attended. At the same time, I am delighted to congratulate Doug Beattie on the birth of his granddaughter Skyler. I am sure we will be able to find a couple of copies of Hansard to send on to the families.

I am grateful to the Opposition for their comments; When opening the debate the hon. Member for Hove (Peter Kyle) said that we were right to prioritise restoring power, and I am grateful to him for that. He asked for an update on the negotiation, which I will give in a moment. We are all agreed that Stormont should be restored—I think that has been a universal theme. The Secretary of State and I have met a wide range of stakeholders and, though of course we are in an undesirable position, we are confident that we have listened to a range of views as we have participated in reaching these decisions with Northern Ireland’s civil service.

Turning to the protocol, as hon. Members know, it has always been our preference to resolve the issues through talks. The Foreign Secretary and Vice-President Maroš Šefčovič speak regularly and Government officials have technical talks. The Foreign Secretary and Vice-President Šefčovič spoke on Monday 16 January and have agreed that rapid scoping work should continue, which we are very pleased about.

We welcome the agreement reached recently on the EU’s access to UK IT systems that provide live information about what goods are moving across from Great Britain to Northern Ireland. That agreement has provided a new basis for further constructive discussions with the EU to come to a negotiated solution on the protocol. We are of course proceeding with legislation, but I would like to take a moment to elaborate on the situation we face.

It is sometimes impressed upon me by some of the harder-line Unionist commentators that we should simply tear up the protocol. I am not sure what political world they think we operate in—I am not talking about Members of this House, but some individuals outside it. The world is rather more complicated than that. Ministers do not have unfettered power to tear up treaties, nor should they. That is why we proceed with the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill.

On the point about border posts, the reality is that we are in the happy position where legitimate interests on both sides are now being recognised: the legitimate interests of the EU and Ireland to have their market protected—that is what the border posts are for, even in the circumstances that the Protocol Bill has to become an Act and be used—and the legitimate interests of Unionism and Unionists. I put on record my heartfelt thanks to the present Taoiseach, Mr Varadkar; I know I will not be thanked by some Unionists for that, but he has had the statesmanship to move his position and recognise the legitimate interests of Unionism. I am grateful to see Opposition Members nodding; it is very good news.

Given the position we are in, where we are very willing to recognise the legitimate concerns of the EU and Ireland and they are increasingly willing to recognise the legitimate concerns of Unionism, this is a moment when we ought not to goad one another. I have fought hard enough in this place over Brexit, but we are tantalisingly close to recognising that we are friends and partners and that we can look after one another’s interests and go forward in the spirit of goodwill.

I encourage everyone, rather than rehearsing the arguments and grievances of the past, to look to a future that is tantalisingly close to being very positive, with a deal that we can all accept. With that in mind, I want to say gently to those of us who fought for Brexit, those of us who are Unionists, that when a deal comes—I do believe it is when, but there is a lot to be done—if that deal is acceptable to the Eurosceptic cause and to Unionism, we are all going to have to sell it to people. It will be no good to just denounce border infrastructure, which is there for the red lane, to protect the interests of the EU. Denouncing what has been done, when we have the green lane and arrangements for unfettered access within the UK, will not be enough. I mean that most sincerely, because if one thing has come home hard, even now—I think I have always known it, given when I joined the Royal Air Force—it is that even after 25 years of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement giving us some welcome peace, the politics of Northern Ireland, as hon. Members from Northern Ireland know better than me, is not to be taken for granted.

The politics of Northern Ireland is a grave thing; too many graves. That has been realised across the European Union. People realise that it is a post-conflict society with, as we have heard, an enforced coalition between the two poles of debate on the pre-eminent constitutional question that caused the conflict, so things are not to be taken lightly. That is why I am happy to put on record my admiration for the current Taoiseach and his predecessor, Mr Martin, with whom I get on well. I look forward to meeting Mr Varadkar. On the protocol, we are tantalisingly close to a success of which we can all be proud and then move on. Let none of us do anything to spoil the prospects of that success.

I turn to the overall points made about spending. Notwithstanding what was said about the Barnett formula and so on, which we support, it must be said that per head public spending in Northern Ireland is the highest of any region of the UK at 21% per head more than the UK average. The Northern Ireland block grant is at record levels, averaging some £15 billion a year over the next three years. On top of that, if we look at the new deal for Northern Ireland at £400 million, city deals at £617 million, the New Decade, New Approach financial package at £2 billion and the forthcoming Peace Plus at £730 million, that adds up to about £3.5 billion of extra funding. That is reflective of Northern Ireland’s special status. But it cannot really be said that Northern Ireland is in any sense neglected.

I will make three points about the process by which we came to the Budget. First, it has been drawn up as a result of intensive engagement between our officials and the Northern Ireland civil service. We are grateful to officials on all sides. The Government have also taken on board many representations that we received in correspondence and in person.

Secondly, I stress again that we believe this overall Budget is a fair and appropriate settlement that reflects the key pressures facing Northern Ireland. I mentioned per-head spending, and I will not repeat myself. Thirdly, it has been said on many occasions that the Bill does not preclude a functioning Executive from making changes to the Budget allocations, should one return. Of course, we are beyond the point at which it is possible to restore the Executive without an election so we would have to legislate. We all fervently hope that the Executive could be restored without an election, and the Secretary of State is considering all his options.

I turn to the important point about the PSNI made by the leader of the DUP, the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson). As the right hon. Member will know, its main budget is allocated by the Northern Ireland Department of Justice. The Budget gives the Department of Justice a 3.1% uplift on its 2021-22 budget. In addition to the block grant, the UK Government provide the PSNI with the additional security funding that it needs to tackle the substantial threat that we face from Northern Ireland-related terrorism. The UK Government contribution for 2022-23 will be £32 million

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I do not dispute the Minister’s figures—my point was not about those figures and I was not challenging them—I was simply pointing out that, in relation to New Decade, New Approach, there was an agreement to recruit additional police officers to bring us up to the level that was agreed way back when the Police Service of Northern Ireland was formed. It was clear that the Treasury would provide the additional funding required to ensure that those extra officers were recruited. My point is simply this: that has not happened.

[Mr Baker]

I am extremely grateful to the right hon. Member for clarifying that point. I will write to him on that. The PSNI is close to my heart, and I am extremely grateful to all the people who work for the PSNI for everything that they do to keep us all safe.

The Opposition spokesman the hon. Member for Hove, the right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) and the hon. Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood) all talked about education funding. According to information published by the Treasury, identifiable public spending on education stood at £1,759 per head in Northern Ireland for the 2020-21 financial year. That compared to £1,428 per head for the UK as a whole over the same period. That was 23% higher than the UK average. That reflects our commitment to Northern Ireland and to education.

The Department of Education projected significant levels of overspend, but this Budget has actually delivered an increase in education spending of just under £300 million. We recognise that pressures above that level of increase will require difficult decisions to be taken, but we believe that those decisions are deliverable within the legal framework that we have set out in the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2022 and the accompanying guidance.

I was grateful to the hon. Member for North Down (Stephen Farry) for his point about efficiency savings that could be made in education. My goodness, yes there are some. Again, that integrated education could even be a question in the 21st century is extraordinary to me. There are certainly savings to be made. That level of additional funding represents around a 12% increase on the previous year, excluding the additional funding allocated for covid. That really is as much as could be afforded in the light of the £660-million black hole that we were facing. Overall, that demonstrates just how unsustainable Northern Ireland finances have become and the need for reform.

The hon. Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) mentioned women’s healthcare, particularly the misery of endometriosis. Once again, this is a shocking situation to be in. The hon. Member for Belfast South (Claire Hanna) talked about the lack of collective shame. In this day and age, we should be ashamed of the state of public services in Northern Ireland. For far too long we have been just grateful for peace and have not done enough to highlight across the whole of the UK what needs to be done to serve the people of Northern Ireland because, my goodness, they deserve good services.

This Budget provides £7.28 billion in funding for the Department of Health. That is an increase of £228 million on 2021-22 spending, which included significant covid-19 funding. It is an increase of £786 million compared with last year’s funding, excluding the one-off covid uplift. As with education, there will be difficult decisions to take on health. Decisions on the reform of healthcare will be difficult. The Bengoa report, as we have discussed, should be carried forward. Too many years—six—have gone by without progress. We need to see Executive return as soon as possible.

I will make one more point before I conclude. I responded to the hon. Member for Foyle in an earlier debate on the addiction rehabilitation centre. I can tell him that the Government stand ready to respond to a proposal submitted by the Executive. I know it is frustrating; I am frustrated because I want to give him the answer he wants. We are waiting on that Northern Ireland Department of Health business case.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Bill

Jeffrey M Donaldson Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 29th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I think I might arrange for my hon. Friend a meeting with my Department’s lawyers, who will happily take him through the issues, the various risks that they are running at this point in time, and the number of cases that we have.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)]

I assure the hon. Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare) that if he has his way, and believes that that will make any difference whatever to the principled stand that my party is taking based on the mandate we were given in the Assembly election, he is gravely mistaken.

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I seem to be in the middle of an argument between two great gentlemen of this House, so I will just tactfully duck and continue with my contribution, because I know that people would like me to move on.

Any determination made by me once the provisions come into force will, I anticipate, take into account the independent analysis produced in the previous political impasse. Again, there is precedent for these powers—the Government took similar action in 2018 to deliver recommendations produced by that analysis.

However, there is an important difference that the House should note: I will retain the power to set MLA pay in future instances where the Assembly is unable to elect a Speaker and deputies following an election. The power would then snap back to the current arrangement when those roles are filled, the Assembly can conduct business and MLAs are fulfilling the full range of functions expected of them. That will mean the Government do not need to return to the House on this matter if the institutions cease to function in the future, which, of course, I hope will not be the case.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith). We fondly recall his facilitation of the talks immediately after the general election in 2019 and the New Decade, New Approach agreement that opened the door for the restoration of the devolved institutions in Northern Ireland, and we thank him for his continuing interest.

I recognise that the Secretary of State is mandated by legislation to bring forward the Bill, and I think that neither he nor I want to be in this position. Let me be clear that the Democratic Unionist party wants to be back in a functioning Executive. It wants to be dealing with the issues that matter to our constituents. Our MLAs stood for election in May, and they sought a mandate from the people of Northern Ireland. That mandate was clear. I sat in TV studios in Belfast, I sat in radio studios in Belfast and I was interviewed by the print media in Belfast and made it absolutely clear that we would not nominate Ministers to an Executive until decisive action had been taken to address the difficulties created by the Northern Ireland protocol. There was no ambiguity on the part of my party about where it stood and the mandate that it sought.

I say gently to the hon. Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare), the Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee that he may wish to punish us because we sought a mandate from the people for the stance that we are now taking, but I would like to see him, as Chair of the Committee, adopting a more conciliatory approach, as the right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith) did, which recognises the very serious concerns that Unionists have about the protocol. I am not prepared to nominate Ministers to an Executive where a Unionist Minister is required to implement a protocol that every day harms our place in the United Kingdom. It vexes me that the hon. Member for North Dorset does not get that. He does not understand it and has not sought to understand it. In my time as party leader, he and I have not had an honest conversation with each other about this issue. I would welcome the opportunity to explain to him why it is important to my party that it is resolved.

When I was elected leader of the DUP, I set out very clearly on 1 July 2021 the course of action that we would take. The Government published their Command Paper in July 2021. We welcomed the commitments that the Government gave in that Command Paper to address the real problems that the protocol has created. On the foot of that Command Paper, I outlined seven tests based on the commitments made by the Government of the United Kingdom—they were not tests that I had created—to address the problems with the protocol. That, again, was in July/August 2021.

In September last year, I again warned that if the Government and the EU were not able to agree on measures to resolve the problems created by the protocol, there would come a moment when it would no longer be tenable for my party to remain in an Executive. Why is that the case? In the New Decade, New Approach agreement, which was the basis on which devolution was restored, a number of commitments were made by all parties to that agreement. It is a fact that the one single remaining issue that has not been resolved, and which is a commitment by the UK Government in New Decade, New Approach, is restoring Northern Ireland’s place in the UK internal market. That commitment has not been delivered. That was made at the beginning of 2020 and we are now almost at the end of 2022, almost three years after we received that commitment from the Government, and it has not been delivered.

I welcome the publication of the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill. I believe that that Bill takes us in strides towards achieving the objective of restoring Northern Ireland’s place in the UK internal market, but it has not been delivered. The Bill is now sitting in the House of Lords, and we do not have a date for when Report will occur in the other place. We do not know what the timetable is for the Bill eventually gaining Royal Assent. It is and remains an outstanding commitment by the UK Government that has not been delivered, and that was the basis on which my party signed up to New Decade, New Approach.

Notwithstanding that, all the other main commitments are being delivered, including recently the Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Bill, which was a key commitment made by the UK Government—and, I accept, others—in that agreement. That has been delivered, notably before the proposed date of the Assembly election. The Secretary of State has now quite rightly extended that date, because an election at this stage will not solve the problem.

That is what we are looking for: a solution. That is what we need. I say—again, respectfully—to the Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee that it would be good to hear him talk about solutions, rather than focusing on punishing people who have a real problem with the protocol and who have a mandate from the people who voted for them to take the stand that they are now taking.

[Jim Shannon]

On that point, that mandate was created in May of this year—a very clear mandate for the DUP to be the largest Unionist party. Since then, the opinion polls in Northern Ireland have shown a greater mandate for our party, because more and more people of the Unionist tradition and across Northern Ireland see the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill as the solution that will sort this matter out. If that does not happen, everyone in this House has to be aware that opinions are hardening, especially on the Unionist side, and they cannot be ignored.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention.

I agree entirely with the right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon: although the Government have not yet been able to deliver on their commitment to restore Northern Ireland’s place within the UK internal market, the biggest culprit in all of this is the European Union. The European Union was formed and founded on the basis that developing consensus in Europe was preferable in order to avoid conflict—that was its original concept. Two terrible world wars had absolutely destroyed Europe, with millions of lives lost, and there was a genuine desire on the part of many European leaders to develop a basis for working and co-existing together through consensus to avoid conflict.

The principle of consensus is central to this discussion. Since 1972 and the collapse of the then Northern Ireland Government, every single Government in this House have made clear that power can only be devolved to institutions in Northern Ireland on the basis of power sharing—a cross-community consensus. I was a Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly during the mandate from 1982 to 1986, and the hon. Member for Belfast South (Claire Hanna) will recall that the SDLP refused to take their seats in that Assembly. They did so on the basis that they would not enter any devolved legislature in Northern Ireland unless an agreement had been established on the basis of power sharing. That has been the case ever since: it is accepted that in a divided society such as Northern Ireland, only a cross-community consensus offers the basis for stable government. After the Good Friday or Belfast agreement, we worked hard from 1998 until 2007 to create the conditions in which that stable, cross-community, consensus-style government could be delivered, and it was created. For 10 years, from 2007 to 2017, we had a stable devolved Government in Northern Ireland, which then collapsed in 2017 when Sinn Féin withdrew.

It concerns me when people talk about the need to normalise politics in Northern Ireland—what does that mean? Does it mean majority rule? Does it mean excluding one section of the community? That fundamentally will not work, and I say that as a Unionist, part of a tradition that held the majority in Northern Ireland for very many years. Now, as the hon. Member for North Dorset has reminded us, we have three groupings. There is no majority in Northern Ireland, in the sense that although support for the Union remains the position of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland, the parties in the Northern Ireland Assembly that they vote for belong to three different political groupings: Unionist, nationalist, and other. However, the idea that an Executive can be created that excludes the largest grouping—the Unionists—simply does not wash.

If we are going to celebrate the 25th anniversary of the Belfast agreement, we have to accept and recognise that the principle of consensus is the way forward. As the Secretary of State acknowledged, that consensus on the protocol does not exist. On Thursday, I think, the Supreme Court will rule on the case that has been brought in relation to the Northern Ireland protocol. However, the High Court and the Court of Appeal in Northern Ireland have already ruled that the protocol supersedes article 6 of the Act of Union.

Article 6 gives the people of Northern Ireland the right to trade freely with the rest of this United Kingdom. It is the embodiment of the economic Union—this is not just a political Union, but an economic Union—and article 6 says to the citizens of Northern Ireland that they have the right to trade without barriers with the rest of the United Kingdom. As the High Court and the Court of Appeal have confirmed, the protocol creates barriers to trade between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. It subjugates the Act of Union. For us as Unionists, that represents a fundamental change in our constitutional status as part of the United Kingdom, yet we are expected to suck it up and operate political institutions that implement that change—that impose barriers to trade in our country. We are simply meant to accept that that is the way it is, but I am sorry, that is not the way it is. My party will not be in a position where it implements measures that harm our place in the United Kingdom and create barriers to trade with the rest of our country. We will not do that, which is why the protocol needs to be resolved. It affects trade.

I understand that His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs is proposing a pilot scheme, to be introduced in conjunction with Fujitsu, that would seek to digitise arrangements for checking the movement of goods between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. In other words, it would digitise the Irish sea border. Let me absolutely clear: the digitisation of the Irish sea border does not remove it. Tinkering around the edges of the protocol will not resolve the problems that it creates. The EU needs to understand that.

Last week, the Prime Minister spoke with great clarity when he was challenged on a story that appeared in The Sunday Times stating that the UK Government were prepared to consider the Swiss model as a way forward for our trading relationship with the EU. The Prime Minister said that the UK will not be aligning with EU laws. When we met him that evening, I reminded him that not only is Northern Ireland aligned with EU laws, but we are subject to them. Our ability to trade with the rest of our country is subject to legislation over which we have no control and on which we have no say. More than 300 areas of law govern the way we trade with the rest of the United Kingdom and we have no say on them.

[Simon Hoare]

The right hon. Member referred to digitalisation and Fujitsu. I can recall, as I am sure he can, that many on the DUP Bench kept referring during the passage of various bits of legislation to the evolving nature of IT and digital as a way of providing that light, invisible touch to deliver something. The IT companies have caught up and are providing those solutions, or are certainly evolving them with HMRC, so I do not understand why a digital solution suddenly has to be taken off the table as unacceptable.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I am happy to offer clarity to the Chairman of the Select Committee. If the digitisation is used to check the movement of goods from Great Britain to Northern Ireland and into the European Union, then yes, anything that makes that a smooth operation and provides the EU with the data it needs to satisfy itself that the integrity of the single market is being protected is fine. But why do my constituents need digitisation for the movement of goods that they purchase at a Sainsbury’s supermarket at Sprucefield in my constituency? Sainsbury’s does not have any supermarkets in the Republic of Ireland; there is therefore no risk of those goods travelling into the Republic of Ireland. Why do we need digital technology to monitor the movement of goods from the Sainsbury’s depot in London to the Sainsbury’s store at Sprucefield?

[Simon Hoare]

I think we all take the point about Sainsbury’s, but may I respectfully say to the right hon. Gentleman that what he says sounds very much like a moving of the goalposts? When he and his party colleagues were advocating invisible, light digital solutions, I paid very keen attention. In all those debates and Select Committee sessions, his party colleagues’ voices were heard, so we all knew the DUP’s position, but I did not hear that distinction being made; it was about a digital solution for everything. It suggests to me that with a digital solution having been on the cusp of delivery, it is now not quite good enough and the goalposts are being moved still further.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I assure the hon. Member that our position has been absolutely consistent. We have said from day one—and this is why we voted against the protocol at the outset—that we do not believe that there should be regulatory barriers on the movement of goods between Great Britain and Northern Ireland when they are remaining within the UK internal market.

I say to the Chairman of the Select Committee that the New Decade, New Approach agreement is very specific. It talks about restoring Northern Ireland’s place within the UK internal market. What does that mean? It means that there should not be regulatory barriers to trade on the movement of goods that travel between Great Britain and Northern Ireland and remain within the United Kingdom. The Democratic Unionist party has never, at any stage, advocated that there should be an Irish sea border on the movement of goods that remain within the UK internal market. That has never been our position.

I simply say to the hon. Member that, yes, I am all for using technology. I have consistently argued that technology can help us where goods are moving through Northern Ireland and into the Republic of Ireland, because that, in essence, is the problem—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. Interesting and important as this is, let us have a look at the scope of the Bill. Perhaps we can now return to the Bill before the House.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

Mr Deputy Speaker, the scope of the Bill is about the government of Northern Ireland. If the government of Northern Ireland cannot function because of the protocol, we need to identify the problems that the protocol is creating.

I say to the Secretary of State and the Government that I think the United Kingdom has been accommodating in its negotiating objectives, as have we. The UK Government and Unionists both accepted from the outset of the debate that there could not be a hard border on the island of Ireland. Let us really think about that for a moment. The United Kingdom accepted, and we accepted, that using the place where customs checks normally take place, which is on the international frontier, would be disruptive to the political process and to the co-operation required to operate the political institutions in Northern Ireland—and what did the European Union do? It pocketed that accommodation and drove for an Irish sea border that it knew full well would have the effect on the Unionist community that a hard border would have on the nationalist community. I say it again: I agree with the right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon that the European Union has a responsibility to put right what was done wrong in relation to the protocol.

[Karin Smyth (Bristol South) (Lab)]

The right hon. Gentleman and I are both members of the EU-UK Parliamentary Assembly, which met recently to highlight our current problems. He and I may disagree on this, but it was the then British Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris Johnson), who actually proposed the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill as a solution to the problem that the Government had got themselves into, and I think we should be laying the blame squarely there.

The issue, as was said in the Parliamentary Assembly and as we all know, is problematic now, but the real problem for future trust is the future relationship. We have still not heard from the UK Government—from one voice in the Conservative party—what sort of realignments, changes and newfound freedoms they want, and that is going to create more problems on the island of Ireland, for all communities. It would be helpful if we could hear from the Government how they see the future relationship operating once we get through the current one. We are not that far apart at the moment, but the fear is that we will be very far apart in the not so distant future.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

The hon. Lady has made an important point. Let me say at this stage that I applaud the Government for introducing the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill, because somebody had to do something. Somebody had to make the first move, and the Bill has at least brought the European Union to the point at which they are back at the negotiating table, and perhaps adopting a more realistic approach. However, we have yet to see that manifest itself in the form of agreement, and we need to see progress being made.

Why is progress important? Progress is important because coming down the track is a major piece of legislation which will, in my opinion, greatly exacerbate the current difficulty: the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill. Why will that exacerbate the problem? Because Northern Ireland will be excluded from large swathes of the Bill, as it is not possible to remove EU regulations in Northern Ireland that are linked to the protocol, the changes that will made to law in Great Britain will leave Northern Ireland further behind in terms of regulatory alignment within the UK internal market. This will greatly enhance the divide between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. It will lead to regulatory divergence. Therefore time is of the essence, but time is also of the essence because the EU is coming forward with new regulations every week, and those regulations apply to Northern Ireland.

Let me give an important example. The EU is proposing a new regulation on human organs and tissues, which will apply to Northern Ireland but not to Great Britain. What does that mean? It means that unless Great Britain adopts the changes that will be brought about by this new regulation, when Northern Ireland patients are hoping for organ transplants or blood transfusions, special blood products or organs will have to be brought from Great Britain. That presents us with a major problem. Because there will no longer be regulatory alignment between the rules on organ transplants in Great Britain and those in Northern Ireland, there will no longer be regulatory alignment in respect of the use of blood products coming from Great Britain for use in the health service in Northern Ireland. This regulation is coming forward: it has already been the subject of scrutiny by the European Scrutiny Committee in this House.

That is just one small example of how further EU regulation will cause Northern Ireland to diverge further from Great Britain, and will present real and practical issues that are about not just trade, but the health and wellbeing of every single citizen in Northern Ireland.

[Julian Smith]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Julian Smith]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the EU, on the issue of medicines, did show flexibility this year, and did start to move into the area that we were discussing earlier—the area of compromise and less hard facts? We need more of that in other areas. We should encourage the EU to use the principle that it applied to medicines in these other sectors, and to start to move in that direction.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I thank the former Secretary of State for making that point, and I agree with him. I think that the point he made in his speech— which I echo—is that what we need now, more than anything, is for the European Union to recognise that consensus in Northern Ireland is essential to restoring the political institutions.

In conclusion, the European Union has stated that the primary reason for the protocol is to protect the integrity of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement and the political institutions created by that agreement. That is what the European Union has said countless times, yet the reality is that the protocol is harming the agreement. It is harming the consensus that is necessary—nay, essential —to operate the political institutions created under the agreement. We are approaching the 25th anniversary, and a lot has been said about that in the House this afternoon. For the record, we want to see the political institutions restored well before the 25th anniversary. We want to be able to join with all our citizens in Northern Ireland to celebrate 25 years of a relative degree of peace.

[Dame Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way one last time. I just want to remind him of when he and I sat on the Parliamentary Partnership Assembly just a few weeks ago in Committee Room 14 and talked to the EU about moving forward. He made an impassioned plea, as did I, for the EU to take account of the needs of all the communities in Northern Ireland, and I certainly felt that that was listened to and respected. I feel optimistic about this, and I wonder if he shares that view.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I would like to be optimistic about the European Union changing its negotiating stance, but we have not seen it yet. We are looking for the evidence of it; we want to see it. That is now essential to break the logjam and open up the opportunity for the UK Government and the European Union to reach an agreement on this most pressing of issues. Therefore, we want to see this legislation have an endpoint. We want to see the political institutions restored in Northern Ireland, but let me be absolutely clear: that requires a solution on the protocol and it requires the European Union to accept that the protocol is not working. It is harming the consensus in Northern Ireland and it needs to be replaced by arrangements that respect the integrity of the UK and Northern Ireland’s place within it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Claire Hanna (Belfast South) (SDLP)]

I am pleased to be called to speak in the debate, but I am disappointed that it is on another Bill that is a manifestation of political failure. It is the latest in the diet of political failure that the people in Northern Ireland have been fed, and attention is rightly on the current abeyance of the institutions. However, the truth is that the stewardship of the Good Friday institutions has been abused for the past decade by partisan positioning. The people who pay the price, time and again, are those who are waiting for health treatment for want of reform of health and for want of workforce planning, the children who are sitting in an inadequate school estate because of delayed development decisions, and the people sitting in the cold and getting sick because of it, waiting for cost of living support payments that reached other regions many months ago.

We should be in absolutely no doubt that, despite the nihilist anti-devolution rhetoric that we have just heard, the responsibility to govern and the refusal of it does have a measurable impact on public services. Nobody is saying that the parties in charge over the past decade have done a particularly good job of running those services, but it is absolutely the case that having no Ministers degrades decision making. We should be in no doubt, either, that the normalisation of crisis politics is wearing people in Northern Ireland down, entrenching division and making our society even sicker.

Anybody listening to the speeches from DUP Members will have had a mind-bending experience. I am going to stick to the scope of the Bill, but I want to clarify that nobody is dismissing the hurt that many ordinary Unionists feel about Brexit and the protocol; that is why many of us advocated exhaustively for better solutions, which were dismissed, while DUP Members were gleefully all about their selfies with the European Research Group. However, we are being honest with people about the fact that the Northern Ireland Assembly does not have a role in that negotiation.

In the debate about restoring the institutions, people are frustrated at the idea that the DUP is the victim in all this, when the people I, my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood), the hon. Member for North Down (Stephen Farry) and many others represent are the people who have been Brexited against our will. Are we tearing everything down? Are we punishing the health service? No—we are turning up for work every day to try to find solutions.

We have heard it demonstrated today that no solutions are going to be acceptable. Perhaps I imagined the years of debate about blockchain and all the other technical solutions to Brexit that were put forward, including by the DUP, but we know there is no bottom line that is going to be met. Instead, we have the promulgation of a “them’uns did it” narrative that the protocol is somehow a creation of Irish people, nationalists and foreigners in the EU, rather than a proposal by the UK Government to get themselves off the hook of the original Brexit trilemma and the fact that we cannot reconcile a hard Brexit with the geography we have. In all the debate I have heard over the last six years, including today, I have yet to hear a solution to that.

The Good Friday agreement is about solutions. That agreement and the institutions it created were supposed to give life to the aspirations of everybody in Northern Ireland, regardless of their community background or their view on the constitutional issue. Instead of people being able to see opportunity in politics and opportunity in public service, they just see dysfunction, an Assembly not sitting and—with respect—a UK Government who are not interested.

People in Northern Ireland know that our future is not fixed. They know the experience we are having right now does not have to be the experience that we have forever, and people are beginning to look clearly at their options. They see the Stormont dysfunction and the merry-go-round here, and they can see a very clear contrast with the Government in the rest of the island of Ireland, who are stable and delivering a budgetary surplus that can mean investment in public services.

The Social Democratic and Labour party has always been clear about our desire to create a new Ireland on the basis of consent, and we have rejected the scorched-earth approach of others that would see a new Ireland rooted through dislocation and disarray, but the hard truth is that those creating chaos in our institutions are absolutely scorching the earth. They are driving more people every day to think about a new paradigm in which they can enjoy good governance, run their businesses and raise their families.

Our primary political objective will always be meeting the needs of people in the here and now. That is why we support the provisions in this Bill—reluctantly, because we know it is required to keep the show on the road, and it does just that and no more.

We acknowledge the need to postpone an election. Elections are supposed to put power in the hands of the people, but the reality is that an election, had it been run next month, or in March or May, if the veto was not removed and the blockage was not removed, would do no such thing. It would not put the people in the driving seat and it would further disrespect the mandate that those people expressed six months ago.

We acknowledge the need to give clarity about interim political decisions, but—I appreciate that the Secretary of State understands this—it is no substitute for democratically accountable Ministers. We are not over the last governance black hole that caused much of the degradation in public services that we are currently experiencing.

However, the SDLP is equally clear that DUP intransigence cannot be rewarded by either direct rule or indirect rule. In the absence of an executive, even with the mitigations in this Bill, the Conservative party would be in the driving seat on major decisions. That does not reflect the will of the people as expressed either this past May or in 1998 with the Good Friday agreement. That agreement was about creating devolved institutions that reflect the views of people who are Unionist, people who are nationalist and people who are neither.

Plan A for the SDLP is a devolved Executive as chosen by the people in May. But we have tabled new proposals that would give a formal consultative role to the Irish Government and a role to the First Ministers-designate, who should be chosen from the two largest traditions—[Interruption.] People can call that what they will, but we are very clear that if strands 1 and 2 are deliberately paralysed, strand 3 and the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference should be consciously operated. Parties should know that that will be the recourse and the consequence of their choice to hold strands 1 and 2 of the Good Friday agreement to ransom. The institutions of government rely on Unionists, nationalists and others working together in our substantial common interest, and that principle should be hardwired into any governance decisions—even those that are operating only temporarily.

We acknowledge the injustice of MLAs who are not fully at work continuing to receive a full and decent salary at a time when so many are struggling, and when those with trade unions are losing pay because they are striking to improve terms and conditions and the public services that they deliver. We regret the collective punishment and untargeted scope of this approach.

As the right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith) outlined, there are many decent and talented people in all the parties, including the many who have stepped forward for election for the first time this year. I spend a lot of time trying to persuade people of all political backgrounds to go into politics. It is difficult enough to attract talent—many of us now on these Benches had our pay cut last time the Assembly was in abeyance—but it is harder when you say, “These are the terms and conditions. This is the abuse you’ll get on social media. These are the hours you’ll keep. And by the way, for a few months every year, you’ll struggle to pay your mortgage and childcare bills because of the intransigence of others.” We have tabled an amendment that would direct that tactic at those who are creating the problem and who refuse to allow even the nomination of a Speaker.

We have also proposed by amendment a means of electing First Ministers and a Speaker. That would move us away from the culture of veto and the focus on binary designation, neither of which have, in recent years, proven healthy for discourse or decision making, unfortunately. That reflects our desire to evolve and reform the institutions without jeopardising the fundamental principles of power sharing and mutual respect. There is absolutely no attempt by the SDLP to move away from those principles, which have been at the core of our party and everything we do for the last five decades and more. But if that is only ever expressed by veto and by blocking the people of Northern Ireland from having a decent life—if that is the only tactic that people appear to be prepared to use—we will absolutely look for solutions.

If the DUP continues to be abstentionist in the new year, post any EU-UK deal, and given that an Assembly election while those are still the conditions will not put power in the hands of people, we will explore reform with more urgency—

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

If you have any seats.

[Mr Gregory Campbell]

Yes—if you have any left.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Bill

Jeffrey M Donaldson Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 29th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Simon Hoare]

I agree with my right hon. and learned Friend. We have sought to be equal across the piece. On a personal note, I have some considerable sympathy with those MLAs who have made representations to me over these past eight, nine or 10 hours. They say, “We want to be there. We want to be addressing the issues of health, housing, transport, infrastructure, encouraging inward investment, growing the economy, and making sure that the prosperity dividend of the peace process is felt across the communities of Northern Ireland. Why should we be held up from doing so because of one party?” Indeed, the artist, Sara O’Neill, sent me a message this morning to say that, as the protocol—the principal, legitimate concern of the DUP—is reserved to this place, and nothing to do with Stormont, would it not make more sense for the DUP to boycott Westminster and not Stormont?

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

rose—

[Simon Hoare]

I will not give way, because I want to be quick.

That is the principle underlying these amendments. I hope the Secretary of State will use his powers and use them speedily, because a message must be sent to the taxpayers of Northern Ireland that, if no one else is on their side, this place is.

[Tonia Antoniazzi]

I rise to speak to new clause 6 in my name and that of the shadow Secretary of State. I will not repeat too much of what was said on Second Reading; the Labour party has accepted the need for this legislation and, as its measures are so time limited, we do not think it needs significant changes. The Government have been clear that they have used previous Executive Formation Acts as the basis for this Bill. Our probing amendment has taken the same approach and is based on a section the Government put into the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019.

New clause 6 would simply require the Secretary of State to publish a report explaining what progress has been made towards the formation of an Executive in Northern Ireland if the deadlines in the Bill are passed without one being formed. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hove (Peter Kyle) has set out, we need to hear from the Government how they will use the extra time this Bill gives them.

During the oral statement at the beginning of this month, the Secretary of State made several commitments at the Dispatch Box in response to Labour suggestions. We are really happy to work constructively with the Government on how we approach Northern Ireland. He said he would be happy to convene multi-party talks and request that the Foreign Secretary brief the Northern Ireland parties on protocol negotiations. He will know that those would be very constructive steps, but it is not clear if they have been taken yet.

As these debates have shown, there is a wealth of history to learn from on how the Government can move things forward. In the other place, my good friend Lord Murphy, who was very involved in the peace process, had this advice for the Government:

“The one thing I would stress in what I ask the Minister is that the negotiations themselves should be very different from what has occurred over recent months. First, there should be a proper process and plan, and there should be a timetable and a structure. There has been ad hocery, if you like, over recent months”.—[Official Report, House of Lords, 14 November 2022; Vol. 825, c. 760.]

The deadlines in this Bill mean there is no more room for ad hocery. In 2019, when there was no Executive, the Government convened more than 150 meetings in a nine-week period. Similar ambition is needed now, and the House must be kept updated.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I had not intended to speak, but I really cannot allow the comments made by the Chair of the Select Committee to go without challenge. For someone who has chaired a Committee specifically on Northern Ireland for a number of years to state to this House that the protocol has nothing to do with the Northern Ireland Assembly is frankly amazing. The Northern Ireland Executive are responsible for implementing key elements of the protocol. The Assembly has a legislative role in relation to elements of the protocol and a four-year duty to decide whether the provisions of the protocol are to continue or not. For someone who ought to know better to suggest that the Assembly has nothing to do with the protocol is amazing.

[Simon Hoare]

I said the Assembly had nothing to do with the negotiation of the protocol. That is reserved to Ministers in this place. On the implementation, of course, the right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, but the negotiations are reserved to the United Kingdom Parliament. That is the point I made; it was not about the implementation.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

The implementation is the problem. The negotiation, hopefully, will deliver the solution. Therefore, we cannot divorce the Assembly from the impact the protocol is having, and it is simply unrealistic to do so.

[Sammy Wilson]

It is surprising that the Chair of the Select Committee has so little knowledge of something that we would expect him to be able to talk about with some degree of clarity. Does my right hon. Friend accept that it would be totally unreasonable to ask Unionists—who are opposed to the protocol and who believe it damages the constitution and their position in United Kingdom and hurts the economic standing of every citizen in Northern Ireland—to implement the thing to which they are so opposed?

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

Not only would that be unreasonable, but those Assembly Members were elected on a mandate not to do so.

[Claire Hanna]

Does that mandate extend to the former Minister at the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs who, while government was being withheld from people, was writing to UK Government Ministers asking for portions of the protocol to be retained, to benefit financially farmers such as himself?

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

Actually, that is not what the former DAERA Minister said. He recognised that the protocol is not working and is harming agriculture. Our farmers cannot bring seed potatoes from Great Britain into Northern Ireland, and there are many other restrictions on the movement of livestock and so on. The point he was making was that there should be no restriction on state aid support for farmers in Northern Ireland as a result of the protocol Bill—not as a result of the protocol.

We can go around in circles on all this. We can train-spot on MLA pay all day long, but the reality is that we are missing the train coming down the track. And the train coming down the track is the lack of consensus enabling the political institutions to function properly. That is what we need to resolve. The Bill allows more time for the solution to be found, and that is what we need to happen. We need the solution.

[Stephen Farry]

Members will be pleased to know that I will be extremely brief. I will touch on a few points.

First, I will not repeat the arguments for amendment 10 given that I mentioned them on Second Reading, but I invite the Secretary of State or the Minister to respond to the substance of it when they wind up. I hope they will reflect on what I and the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Hove (Peter Kyle) have said about not boxing themselves in for what lies ahead.

Beyond that, I stress that there is a need for some degree of ad hoc scrutiny in what happens over the coming weeks and months. With respect to my DUP colleagues, amendment 13, taken literally, is somewhat onerous, but there is also an elephant in the room: our best means to scrutinise decision making in Northern Ireland is to have a fully functioning Assembly.

Northern Ireland Elections

Jeffrey M Donaldson Excerpts

Wednesday 9th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I understand the point that my hon. Friend has made and I will swerve well away from it.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)]

The Secretary of State is making a statement under provisions laid out in the New Decade, New Approach agreement, yet the only remaining part of that agreement that has not been implemented and honoured by this Government is the most important one of all: restoring Northern Ireland’s place in the UK internal market.

We have had legislation passed on language and identity, and other pieces of legislation, including the provisions that the Secretary of State draws upon today. We recognise that the Government have brought forward legislation on the protocol, which is welcome, and that negotiations are ongoing. The Belfast/Good Friday agreement is based on the principle of consensus and cross-community support. When I hear some Members in this House saying that no one party should have a veto and praising the Good Friday agreement, maybe they need to read the agreement again and recognise that it is cross-community. There was silence from some when Sinn Féin kept Northern Ireland without a Government for three years; nothing was said about removing the Sinn Féin veto, so let us be even-handed.

To conclude, I say to the Secretary of State that words such as “courage”, “understanding” and “compromise” are fine and good words, but what the people of Northern Ireland need now, the sooner the better, is a solution that sees the institutions restored on the basis that Northern Ireland is an integral part of the United Kingdom, in line with article 1 of the Belfast agreement and with the Act of Union itself.

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his words and his questions. I hear exactly what he says. He details where legislation is in this place. The Northern Ireland Protocol Bill is, I believe, now in Committee in the House of Lords, unamended at this point. It is moving at good pace. This Government’s preferred view is to have a negotiated solution with our European partners, but he can see what we are aiming for in the content of that Bill.

I also hear what the right hon. Gentleman says about the history—I have made that point myself to all those who have raised similar points with me because I am aware of it and of the responsibility that sits on my shoulders. I am also aware that the 25th anniversary of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement on 10 April could and should be a great day for Northern Ireland, its politics and its past, present and future. I look forward to working with the right hon. Gentleman on all those matters.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jeffrey M Donaldson Excerpts

Wednesday 9th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mr Baker]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I have taken that up with our counterparts in BEIS. We do so frequently and intensively. My right hon. Friend has just said to me that he met the energy Minister on Thursday. We will continue to press colleagues in BEIS. They are fully aware of the situation and the imperatives, and I think a full answer on the justification for the £100 would meet with Mr Speaker’s disapproval at this moment.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)]

The Minister rightly said that the Union is both a political and an economic union. In the High Court and the Court of Appeal, in respect of the Northern Ireland protocol and its application, the Government’s lawyers argued that the protocol superseded article 6 of the Act of Union itself—the Union with Ireland Act 1800—which is the basis for the economic union. Will the Government and the Minister assure us that, in any negotiations with the European Union, they will strive to restore our full rights under article 6 of the Act of Union and our place in the UK internal market?

[Mr Baker]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for the opportunity to commit that, yes, the Government are determined to restore the constitutional position of Northern Ireland fully within the United Kingdom. That is our intention. I cannot get into the niceties of the legal arguments that were made, but, if I may so, as I understand it, I think they are broadly technical.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

Can I also refer to the comments made by the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Hove (Peter Kyle), and raise the energy support scheme and the £400 that is to be allocated to the electricity accounts of domestic households and non-domestic users—businesses and so on—in Northern Ireland? I have spoken with the Secretary of State for BEIS to urge that the payment is brought forward in good time. Will the Minister assure me that he will continue his efforts with us to ensure that the £400 payment is made to the people of Northern Ireland as soon as possible?

[Mr Baker]

We certainly will continue those efforts together. I am grateful for the right hon. Gentleman meeting the Business Secretary. I hope he will not mind my saying, though—I understand the reasons he is not in the Executive and that is why we wish to press forward on the protocol—that matters would be somewhat easier if a functioning Executive were in place.

Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Bill [Lords]

Jeffrey M Donaldson Excerpts

Wednesday 26th October 2022 Commons Chamber

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

Thank you, Dame Eleanor, for calling me in the debate. Its focus has already tended to drift towards the issue of language, but the Bill is about identity and language. I want to comment specifically on identity and the amendments that affect that.

Identity is a pithy matter. It is not so easily defined, and it affects us all in very different ways. Dame Eleanor, you have been to my constituency on many occasions. You will know that if you go to the townlands of Dunseverick or Ballintoy and raise your eyes to the horizon across the great Dalriada bay, first and foremost you will see Scotland—the outlan of your home nation. At the same time, standing in that part of my constituency, Belfast, the capital city of Northern Ireland, is almost 70 miles away. The capital city of the Republic of Ireland, Dublin, is about 160 miles away—some might say that it is 160 light years away. The identity of that part of my constituency, which infuses itself in the people of my constituency and those of that northern corner of Ulster, is a strange mix of Ulster and Scot; an identity that is unique.

If we are to deal with the protection of an identity, we need to get back to what the law states. The law in Northern Ireland is about protecting heritage, culture and equality; it is not a single-minded thing just about language.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)]

rose—

[Ian Paisley]

Of course, I give way to another Ulster Scot.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

It is not just something that is contemporary. The view from the Glens of Antrim is beautiful, but the kingdom of Dalriada used to cover much of Scotland; it was both Ulster and Scotland. Historically, that culture and identity is embedded in the DNA of the people. What I find most offensive is that the Bill does not reflect the historic significance of my Ulster Scots, Ulster British heritage and culture, and it does not afford it adequate protection.

[Ian Paisley]

I thank my right hon. Friend for that point, which he makes powerfully.

When we deal with identity in this framework, we are dealing with equality law, we are dealing with equal rights, and we are dealing with something that has an impact across the whole of this kingdom, because it is about a person’s individual and community perspective. That enforces who and what we are. It is nebulous; it is shadows; but it is who and what we are, in terms of our identity. That cannot just be written down, with the Government saying, “We will give so many millions to the Irish language and so many millions to this other thing, and then we will have protected everyone.” That is not how equality legislation should work. It should be much more thoughtful and detailed.

If we are to take a perspective only on the language issue, according to the latest census in Northern Ireland, the language spoken by 95.3% of people is English. The next largest language is spoken by 1.1% of people in Northern Ireland, and that is Polish. There are no protections in our law for that. The next language, at 0.49%, is Lithuanian. There are no protections outlined about that. We come to the Irish language, spoken by 0.32% of the population, followed closely behind by Portuguese on 0.27%. So if we are to characterise this as a matter of language protection, let us protect the Polish language in Northern Ireland and the Polish people, who make a major contribution to employment. Let us identify and protect those cultures that are actually under threat, not cultures that are emboldened in certain ways by money and resources that appear to many to be unending. That is what the Bill should really be addressing, if it is about language protection.

When we come into this building through Westminster Hall, we pass under that marvellous window—the rights, equality and liberties window—that faces the portrait of Moses. That window contains representations of scrolls, and each and every one of those scrolls signifies disability rights and equality rights—I know that the Chair of the Select Committee, the hon. Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare), is not interested in any of this—and all the legislation that the House has made on emancipation, the right to vote, and women’s rights and liberties. If we in the House are to make a piece of legislation to deal with equality in a part of this kingdom, we should ensure that it is fit for purpose. The reason why there is a screed of amendments on the amendment paper is because the Bill is not fit for purpose as equality legislation. It is severely damaged, and it would not reinforce the rights and liberties of the people we have talked about.

I think that the Minister expects Unionists just to vote for the Bill, to accept it and to swallow it down. In the negotiations that he hosted, I discussed the issue with him. Other Members of the House will not vote for it. They will not be compelled to vote for it or be under any pressure whatsoever to vote for it because they do not come through the door to the Chamber, yet the Minister will hand them issues that address a lot of their rights and concerns. They are entitled to have those concerns, but that damages and demeans the issues that I have put on the agenda and in Hansard today.

The starting point for me is this: if the Bill is already broken, at what points is it not fit for purpose? Let us take New Decade, New Approach. The Chair of the Select Committee was quick to point to that as the starting point, the refresh and where we are supposed to be. Actually, the Bill breaches what was outlined in “New Decade, New Approach”. My hon. Friend the Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) went into some detail, and my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson), in an intervention, identified where some of the breaches are. Where a negotiation has taken place on what a Bill should say and do, we are used to seeing that Bill reflect the New Decade, New Approach agreement. But this Bill is completely at variance with the issues negotiated and put into New Decade, New Approach. That is why the Bill is not fit for purpose. No matter where one stood on New Decade, New Approach, that is what the Bill is supposed to represent. As a House, we should collectively take offence when we are told, “This Bill represents what was in New Decade, New Approach.” It is pretty obvious that it does not—it just doesn’t. That is the point that the Minister needs to address. In the same way that the Belfast-Good Friday agreement has been breached by the protocol arrangements, New Decade, New Approach has been breached by the Bill. That is the problem. That is why Unionists are agitated about this and why it should be fixed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian Paisley]

Laughing and pouring scorn on their identity leaves Unionists—[Interruption.] “I’m laughing at you, not what you’re saying”—so you’re laughing at a people and at a community—is the barrow-boy response that comes back. I do not say those things. I have a very good record of not saying those things. I cherish people’s identity. What makes me strong as a Unionist is that I can have my identity and understand someone else’s. I love—not despise—the diversity that is there. It is the diversity that makes us strong. That is the point that the hon. Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood) should dwell on when he speaks later on. No doubt he will.

The issue—this is the point that my right hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) made—is about having due regard in terms of the commissioner. That is the point of the authority of the commissioner. The commissioner that will deal with the identity that matters most to me will effectively be powerless and emasculated from day one, unable to make a single ruling that must be taken care of or noted.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

The reality is that under the office of identity there are a number of principles set out about how identity should be respected. The office can monitor how those principles are being adhered to and report to the Northern Ireland Assembly. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is absurd to believe that the current make-up of the Assembly will offer any comfort when the same Assembly, during the jubilee year of her late Majesty the Queen and the centenary year of Northern Ireland, refused to allow us to put up a little rock in the grounds of Stormont, a little stone, to commemorate the fact that Northern Ireland was 100 years old? It refused to allow us to plant a rose to mark the jubilee of her Majesty the Queen, yet the Minister expects us to have confidence that the same Assembly will protect our identity when it will not even allow us to mark our identity in that way.

[Ian Paisley]

My right hon. Friend really drives home the point. The problem is that it is not one or two minor encroachments; it is a catalogue and the catalogue is growing. It is not as if it has diminished in time and these were examples from years ago. These are examples at some of the most key moments in our identity as a people: when we celebrate the jubilee of her late Majesty and when we celebrate the historic foundation of the state we cherish. When those things are threatened in the immediate past, I agree wholeheartedly with the point made so powerfully by my right hon. Friend. Under the Bill, the Government and the authorities in Northern Ireland will be obliged to listen to and direct people by one side, but they can ignore the other. If anyone on the Government Benches or the Opposition Benches thinks that that is a sensible way to address this issue, they really need to tell us how, because it just will not work. That is, and will continue to be, a recipe for disaster.

We should expand the protection of culture and heritage, because we are only going to protect one tiny part. As was outlined in the St Andrews agreement and later put into law, as section 28D of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, by the Northern Ireland (St Andrews Agreement) Act 2006, the Government are duty bound—Minister, I would really like you to answer this point—to “adopt a strategy” and proposals that “enhance and develop” heritage and culture. It does not say anything about language. It talks about heritage and culture, which embrace language and all those things. The law is telling us that we should have protections that develop our heritage and culture, yet the Bill will limit our heritage and culture, and any protections that will be put on them.

Members have already identified the vast resources that are spent on identity and language in Northern Ireland, and the balance is very much out of kilter—extremely so. In fact, it is through the floor on one side and through the ceiling on the other. That is how out of kilter it is. Until that issue of resourcing is properly addressed, the Bill will be unfit for purpose. Minister, I would like to see proposals and protections for my identity. I would like to see them genuinely put in place. Until that happens, the Bill will be a travesty.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Farry]

I want to listen to reasoned arguments. Some of the DUP amendments may well have merit, but I am dubious about amendment 1 for a detailed reason, which I will mention.

I also want to address the points about Polish, Lithuanian and other languages needing greater attention. It is important to move beyond that argument, which is often thrown up. The reason that the Bill is before us is not about facilitating the use of language and people who face a barrier to understanding. It is about respecting, embedding and celebrating the indigenous languages of the island of Ireland, particularly the northern part. We should, of course, do work in parallel with that to ensure that we properly integrate people with other European and global languages into our society, but it is important that Members do not fall into the trap of trying to conflate the two and diminish what we are trying to achieve with the Bill. It is also important that we celebrate the language as being cross-cutting and to recognise that Unionism and nationalism are not monolithic in Northern Ireland. There are many other traditions. There are people who have moved away from those traditions and people who share both those traditions. We need to celebrate all that in our life in Northern Ireland.

At times, this debate has drifted into the Bill being somehow a threat to Unionism and the British identity in Northern Ireland.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

With the greatest respect to the hon. Member, no DUP Member has said what he just suggested. We are saying that the Bill does not adequately protect our identity and culture. We are not saying that the Bill is the threat, but that it does not adequately protect them. We have explained why and I wish that he would sometimes actually listen to what Unionists are saying, instead of being so dismissive.

[Stephen Farry]

With all due respect, I have been listening. People are entitled to look back through Hansard to see exactly what was said, but the tenor of many comments that have been made today is that this is some sort of slippery slope, where the British-Ulster identity is being eroded and is under threat, and that there is no protection for it and people are fearful for the future. We have to embrace a shared and integrated future in Northern Ireland. That is the only way forward.

The Bill also needs to be considered in line with the wider human rights and equality architecture in Northern Ireland. It is not about protecting two different traditions in Northern Ireland, but about language and culture, which are separate issues. We already have extensive equality protections in various legislation; I think we should have a single equality Bill to better embed them.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

It is the Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Bill—identity, not culture.

[Stephen Farry]

Yes, but identity is not something that we should see in a polarised way. That is the point that I am trying to stress. Let us focus on languages and on the identity that goes with them. Let us see them not as monolithic or as the sole preserve of one side of the community or the other, but as something that is shared across the board.

The framing of the Bill, with different approaches to the Irish language and to Ulster Scots, reflects the different uses of those languages and the different demands from sectors. It also reflects the different ways in which the UK Government have embedded them in the wider European and international human rights framework around languages. The UK Government ratified the European charter for regional or minority languages with respect to Irish and Ulster Scots in 2001, but Ulster Scots was ratified only in relation to part 2 of the charter, whereas Irish was ratified in relation to parts 2 and 3. That gives some indication of the pre-existing differential approach that has fed through into the New Decade, New Approach agreement and into the Bill.

We must ensure that we do not end up creating duties and expectations that are not actually being sought. Equally, we must not magnify what is already there and build it up into some sort of trope or threat to change the complexion and nature of areas. I have to say that a lot of fear has been whipped up about what the Bill’s provisions will do to the characteristics of some areas, which I do not think stands up to any scrutiny whatever.

One of the trade-offs in the negotiations behind New Decade, New Approach was that what is being done in relation to Irish is seen in perhaps a narrower sense around language, whereas the demand in relation to Ulster Scots was to do things on a much wider basis and over a wider range of areas. We do not talk about the Irish identity in the same way that we talk about the Irish language in the Bill, or in the same way that we have added the Ulster British identity to the Ulster Scots language. Already, in the framing of the terminology, we are not seeing a like-for-like comparison. Once again, that illustrates a differential approach in the legislation.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

The hon. Member touches on an important point. I am not prepared to have my aspiration determined and defined by the aspirations of others. If the key demand of nationalists is that the Bill do what it does for the Irish language, that is their right, but at no stage during the NDNA negotiations did we ever suggest that our aspiration for this legislation was limited to language. We made it absolutely clear that it was not limited to Ulster Scots; it was about protecting our Ulster British heritage, culture and identity. Why does the hon. Member feel that his Unionist constituents in North Down should have their aspiration limited to conform to the aspirations of others who have limited their demand to language? We never did so. We were clear about what we sought to achieve. I therefore think that the hon. Member does not understand, and does not seek to understand, where we are coming from.

[Stephen Farry]

I am grateful to the right hon. Member for his comments, but I fear he has misunderstood what I am saying. I am not attacking the Bill in that respect; I am pointing out that there is already an in-built differential. What happened in relation to the Irish language was focused more narrowly on language and arguably went deeper in that respect, whereas what happened in relation to Ulster Scots and Ulster British is wider in NDNA and in the legislation, but does not go quite as deep. That is the fundamental differential—one is deeper, one is wider—and that is perfectly fine.

I am not seeking to diminish anything or remove anything from the Bill. I simply make the point that in the Irish language aspects there is not the same reference to the equivalent of an Ulster British identity. That reflects the different demands in the negotiations and confirms my point that what we have before us was hammered out extensively in negotiations over several years. All the arguments that hon. Members—the few of us who are here—are hearing today have been rehearsed many, many times. Very little has been said that is particularly new.

Let me move on from amendment 1 and touch briefly on some others. Amendment 6 addresses the use of the word “sensitivities”—a word that I think the Government should reflect on removing from the Bill. As the hon. Member for Belfast South (Claire Hanna) outlined, the qualifier for someone’s use of their rights should be someone else’s rights, as it is in international and domestic human rights law. “Sensitivities” is a very subjective term, and its use could be seen as implying that not liking what someone is saying or doing, in terms of culture, is a reason to intervene and stop it happening. The criterion for stopping something happening should not be simply whether someone is offended, but whether someone’s rights are infringed.

It would be a nice gesture if the public authority duty were extended to the Northern Ireland Office, not least because the new Minister of State is very active in Northern Ireland. If the Bill is good enough for public authorities in the devolved space, it should be good enough for the NIO, at least in terms of how it operates within Northern Ireland.

Amendment 13 concerns safeguards. Regretfully, I have to say that it is necessary to have an assurance that if there is no progress on the appointment of an Irish language commissioner, the Northern Ireland Office may need to intervene. The same applies to the publication of standards. My wish is for the devolved structures to be restored and to make quick progress on appointments and the approval of standards, but regretfully I must say that evidence from the past two and a half years or more and from what has been said today does not fill me with optimism that will happen. I have spoken to the Minister and I fully appreciate that it is not the Government’s intention to come in with a heavy hand, but it may well be necessary.

My final point relates to the Castlereagh Foundation. I have no issue with the foundation being referred to in the Bill along with the Office of Identity and Cultural Expression. The fact that we have the office reflects how the Bill is engaging with language and identity issues in Northern Ireland; it is broader than what we are doing with respect to the Irish and Ulster Scots languages. It is important to have proper transparency. I must point out to the Minister the lack of transparency in the appointments process whenever the advisory panel was put in place in relation to the Castlereagh Foundation. I seek assurances from him that that will not be the practice in future.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sammy Wilson]

I will, of course, obey your request, Dame Eleanor.

Can the Minister show how that discrepancy in this Bill will give Unionists the same protection? He is welcome to get involved in the quagmire, the chaos, the complaints and the friction that this Bill will cause. He may say that the Bill will be light-touch, but I suspect he will be dragged into controversies over it time and again. A requirement to impose rather than reach agreement is not a good way to proceed. With the powers the Bill gives to the Minister, he can be sure that the default position will always be that is for him to decide. Rather than reaching a resolution on these issues, it will become yet another focus for controversy.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I thank the hon. Members for North Dorset (Simon Hoare), for Belfast South (Claire Hanna) and for North Down (Stephen Farry), my hon. Friends the Members for Strangford (Jim Shannon), for Upper Bann (Carla Lockhart) and for North Antrim (Ian Paisley), and my right hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson), for their contributions this afternoon.

I will not rehearse the arguments that have been made very effectively by my colleagues, but I will touch on the politics of all this, which is very important and needs to be understood by those on the Government Front Bench. I was present during the negotiations on New Decade, New Approach, and the hon. Member for North Down is right that the negotiations on identity and language were tortuous, detailed and lengthy, because these issues are very sensitive in Northern Ireland. We know that, and we know some of the trouble we have had in Northern Ireland on issues arising from identity, culture and so on.

We want to get to a new place where we mark our diversity of culture, identity, language and so on through respect. That is the landing zone for us. When I look at this Bill, I recall clearly what was agreed in New Decade, New Approach, and I understand clearly, as a senior member of the DUP negotiating team, what we signed up to. I remember the detailed arguments that took place within our party about NDNA and the detailed consideration we gave this aspect of that agreement, and I am clear that the Bill does not reflect what we agreed.

My colleagues have made reference to the other draft Bills that were published and the difference there is in respect of NDNA. I wrote to the Minister—I am not going to repeat what I said in a very lengthy letter to him—setting this out in detail. He asked us on Second Reading to explain where we were able to highlight a disparity between what was in NDNA and what is in the Bill, and we have done that in detail. I was disappointed with his response to that, because I do not think the Northern Ireland Office understands fully the strength of feeling on these Benches about this matter. That is important, because we cannot support the Bill in its current form, which means we cannot go out to promote it to the communities we represent. The Bill will therefore fail in its objective, which is to promote respect in Northern Ireland, because the Unionist community—those of us who come from an Ulster British, Ulster Scots background—do not feel that it adequately respects and protects our identity.

Our identity is much wider than just the question of language. I will not repeat what I said to the hon. Member for North Down, but let me say that if nationalist parties wanted to use this vehicle to achieve what they have sought to achieve on language, we were clear that our objectives and aspirations were much broader than the issue of language. My hon. Friend the Member for Strangford made that point clear. I therefore believe that the Bill fails adequately to offer the protection we wanted for our identity, culture and heritage, and so the Bill is not adequate.

I say to the Minister that we on this side of the House have watched closely the actions of the NIO in the past week. We are coming up to an Assembly election, we are told by the Secretary of State. The draft Order Paper for business for this week did not include this Bill. I was told by the then Government Chief Whip that the legislation would not come until after any Assembly election, in order to avoid any perception that there would be an attempt by the Government to influence the election. Yet here we are, with the Bill fast-tracked. All of a sudden it is on the Order Paper and we find that the Government are putting a tick in the Sinn Féin box. Sinn Féin can go out after today and say, “We achieved what we set out to achieve.”

[Stephen Farry]

This is a point of information, which I hope will be of service to the House. To be fair to the Government, this Committee stage was announced in last Thursday’s business statement, so it did not come as a surprise in the sense that we were bounced today with this Bill; it was properly telegraphed, as far as I am concerned.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, but I did not say that; I said that when the draft order was published last week, this was not on the Order Paper. I spoke to the then Chief Whip, who gave me the assurance that such a sensitive issue as this would not be debated further until after any Assembly election, yet here we are.

I have to look at this and come to the conclusion that there appears in the NIO to be fairly blunt attempt, in fast-tracking this legislation today and in refusing to take any amendments to deal with Unionist concerns, to further an agenda. I do not say that lightly. I am not given to making accusations that have no substance. I believe that this is a blunt attempt by the Northern Ireland Office to deliver a key demand made by Sinn Féin so that Sinn Féin can go to the polls and trumpet their achievement, and not to accept any Unionist amendments so that Unionism cannot go out and say, “We believe this is a fair and balanced approach to very sensitive issues.”

When we signed up to the New Decade, New Approach agreement, it was about the terms for restoring devolved government in Northern Ireland after three years of Sinn Féin saying that we could not have a Government until the Irish language issue was addressed. That is an indisputable fact. That was their key demand. New Decade, New Approach was therefore a package that was designed to address the concerns of people across the community, and it was the basis for restoring devolved government.

For Unionism, two key elements—among others—of that agreement helped us take the decision to go back into the power-sharing Executive. One was the UK Government’s commitment to protect and restore Northern Ireland’s place in the UK internal market. Two and a half years later, that has not been delivered. That is why, in February, I reluctantly had to take steps to withdraw the then First Minister—because the Government had not delivered their New Decade, New Approach commitment.

The second element was ensuring a balanced outcome on language and identity. The Bill destroys that balanced outcome. I therefore say to the Minister in all candour that if the Bill goes through unamended, we will have to return to the issue, because it is a key part of New Decade, New Approach. The measure needs to be balanced and respect the identity and culture of the Ulster British and Ulster Scots communities in Northern Ireland. We will not settle for second best. We will not settle for our identity and culture being treated as second class.

Our amendments are not about changing the provisions on the Irish language. We are not seeking to level down. We are not trying to diminish the rights in the Bill. We want to ensure parity of esteem for the Ulster British and Ulster Scots tradition, heritage and culture. We are not seeking to do anyone down. We want—to use a phrase that the Government often use—to level up, so that our identity, culture and heritage can be fully protected and respected, just as we expect the identity, heritage and culture of others to be protected and respected.

[Colum Eastwood]

I am grateful to the right hon. Member for giving way, but will he bring a little clarity to some of his remarks? He said that DUP Members would return to the issue. He is entitled to his opinion and position on any issue, but we already have no Government in Northern Ireland because of the DUP’s stance on the protocol—we will not debate that today. What exactly is the right hon. Member saying about the DUP’s position if the Bill goes through? In my view, we have a desperate need for a Government in Northern Ireland.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I agree that we want the political institutions to be up and running. We have often heard from others that agreements should be honoured. That is often the mantra of others. New Decade, New Approach is not being honoured today. I simply say to the hon. Member and the House that we will not settle for the Bill as the final outcome. We will continue to argue our case that further protections need to be provided. I will listen carefully and closely to the Minister. This is not the end of the matter. It needs to be dealt with properly. We need fairness, equity and parity of esteem. We have often been told that that is what we want. That is what we need, and that is what I desire for the communities that we represent.

Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Bill [Lords]

Jeffrey M Donaldson Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 12th October 2022 Commons Chamber

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I hear what my right hon. Friend is saying, but BSL is not reflected in this Bill at this point. I am sure he can add expertise and wise counsel as to whether this is the right place for any addition of that type.

Clause 1 amends the Northern Ireland Act 1998 to make provision for the national and cultural identity principles, and requires specified public authorities to have due regard to them when carrying out their functions. These principles affirm the freedom of everybody in Northern Ireland to choose, affirm, maintain and develop their national and cultural identity, and to express and celebrate that identity in a manner that takes account of the sensitives of those with different national and cultural identities. Furthermore, public authorities should encourage and promote reconciliation, tolerance and meaningful dialogue between those with different national and cultural identities.

Clause 1 also establishes the new Office of Identity and Cultural Expression, which will be required to promote awareness of the principles, and to monitor and encourage compliance with them. It will, for example, be able to issue public guidance on best practice for complying with the new duty and to commission research into matters relating to national and cultural identity in Northern Ireland. Clause 1 was also amended in the other place, and I will tackle that when I talk about new clause 8, as inserted in the other place, a bit later in my remarks; further details are also contained on the proposed Office of Identity and Cultural Expression.

Clause 2 provides for the official recognition of the status of the Irish language in Northern Ireland and the appointment of an Irish language commissioner to enhance and protect its use by public authorities when they are providing services to the public. The commissioner, who will be appointed by the First and Deputy First Ministers acting jointly, will develop standards of best practice to which public authorities must have due regard. Those standards will have to be approved by the First and Deputy First Ministers before they can take effect. The commissioner will also monitor and promote compliance with approved standards and investigate complaints where it is claimed by a person directly affected that a public authority has failed to comply with its obligations.

Clause 3 makes provision for the appointment of a commissioner for the Ulster Scots and the Ulster British tradition. The commissioner will be required to promote awareness of services provided by public authorities in Ulster Scots or those likely to be of particular interest to those with an interest in the language, arts and literature associated with the Ulster Scots and the Ulster British tradition. The commissioner will also be required to provide and publish advice, support and guidance in respect of such language, arts and literature, reflecting the Government’s recent recognition of Ulster Scots under the framework convention, as I set out earlier. That advice will also cover the effects and implementation of that international agreement, the UN convention on the rights of the child and the Council of Europe charter for regional or minority languages. For Members who are interested in this matter, schedule 3 contains further details about the commissioner for the Ulster Scots and the Ulster British tradition.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)]

To those on the DUP Benches, it is evident from the Secretary of State’s explanation that there is a disparity between the power of the two commissioners. One has the power to direct; the other has the power to issue advice. That is important, because I was involved in the discussions on the New Decade, New Approach agreement, and we were very clear. We have seen local council buildings in Northern Ireland stripped bare of any vestige of British identity. We wanted to protect the right to reflect our identity in public buildings and public spaces, yet I do not see any power for the Ulster British commissioner to direct councils where they are stripping out the Ulster British identity from their public buildings and public spaces. He can offer advice, but does that compel a council to act? For us, this is a key issue.

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

The right hon. Gentleman is correct; the duty is to give due regard to the items that I have listed. I would like to think that some of the measures that I have outlined would act as safeguards. The appointment of the commissioners must be made by the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister in agreement, and there will be a level of understanding at that point in time, but I completely understand the point that the right hon. Gentleman has been making.

--- Later in debate ---

[Claire Hanna (Belfast South) (SDLP)]

I want, like others, formally to convey our condolences to and our solidarity with the people of Creeslough after the unimaginable tragedy that struck them on Friday. I know that the very sincere words from the Prime Minister, the Leader of the Opposition and the King have been warmly received and felt by every community across the island. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a n-anamacha.

I would like to speak about this important—overdue, but welcome—legislation. It has been a long road to get here at length, but credit is due to the lovers of the language throughout the decades for their persistence and to those who did campaign for this legislation. Is fearr go mall ná go deo—it is better late than never.

I am glad to follow the hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson)—I am sure he would like to clarify that other beers are available—who made a thoughtful contribution. If that is his party’s position, it will be easier to engage with, because there are good provisions in the Bill and, crucially, these are provisions that the DUP agreed to in New Decade, New Approach.

The Bill provides for an Office of Identity and Cultural Expression for both Irish and Ulster Scots, with the aim of promoting pluralism and respect for diversity and shared cultural and linguistic heritage. It guarantees no diminution of the status of the English language, and yes, it does repeal the Administration of Justice (Language) Act (Ireland) 1737. It provides for commissioner oversight to promote and ensure best practice in the use of language by public bodies.

Just for clarity, Members will be aware of the Social Democratic and Labour party’s approach to public bodies and public buildings. We believe in levelling up—to borrow a phrase of the time—on identity. We do not believe in expunging the shared history of this place, but it is just a fact that in many public buildings there will be no markers of identity for people of an Irish tradition, women, the LGBT community or trade unions. Buildings have been very much of a single identity for many generations, and it is appropriate that they will change. However, we stand by our shared history and seek to protect it, and this Bill will not undermine that.

We hope that this Bill will normalise and mainstream, and that it will remove a lot of the poisonous party politics that has thwarted the language. Language has of course been political on the island of Ireland for many hundreds of years. Unfortunately, party politicisation has not improved—in fact, it has deepened in recent years—and the SDLP is hopeful that this Bill will take the business of promoting and protecting language and culture out of such everyday thwarting and weaponisation. However, we do have very serious concerns about re-embedding it in the Executive Office, which over the last decade and more has become a place of veto and deadlock, where good ideas in Northern Ireland have been going to die. We will be seeking, by amendment, to address that to prevent delay and language provision being held hostage in future years.

Those provisions have to be put into legislation because of the commitment to protect language, on which there has been dither, delay and denial for decades of devolution. It is also correct that this should absolutely be done on the Floor of the Assembly. We would all wish that to be the case, but it is also important to note that the Northern Ireland Assembly, to the best of my knowledge, has never delivered a piece of equality legislation.

Those who think that they are holding some imaginary line by undermining equality provisions should be aware that they are doing the opposite of what they think they are doing. They are making many people believe that the rights, lives and opportunities that they want are not available to them under devolution in the United Kingdom. Níor bhris focal maith fiacail riamh—a good word never broke a tooth—so I think it is appropriate that people find it within themselves to be positive about these provisions.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Claire Hanna]

I would be delighted to do so—I would use my Ulster Scots and say, “Houl yer whisht, Jeffrey,” but I will let you speak.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

Well, I will try not to be thran about it.

I welcome the approach that the hon. Lady is taking. In her, I see someone who lives the Irish language, who values it and sees it as an important part of her culture and identity, and I have no difficulty with that. She spoke about the importance of words. Does she agree with me—and I quote the words of Danny Morrison, the former publicity director for Sinn Féin—that every word spoken in Irish is

“another bullet…fired in the struggle for Irish freedom”?

It is that kind of use of the language as a political weapon that causes concern. I am not for a moment suggesting that the hon. Lady is guilty of that in any way, but does she agree that we need to move beyond that and get away from politicisation? Language is a means of communication. It should not be used as a political weapon.

[Claire Hanna]

I will come on to address exactly that politicisation, but it is also about the collective punishment that is applied to children learning Irish in the nursery school. Of course the right hon. Member knows that I would not support language like that, but neither do I damn all protection of Ulster Scots and Ulster British identity because of some words of Ulster Scots or Irish that may appear on a loyalist mural or drum. That is why we need those protections, so that people cannot deny everyday provisions because of the perceptions that they have. I should be delighted to come on to that, and I want to discuss how we build up the confidence of everyone in these cultural provisions by implementing things that were agreed many years ago and which could take some of the heat, poison and damage out of everyday politics.

A fair and wise point was made earlier about the need for things such as a sign language Act as well. It is a fact that the stop-start stand-off culture in which the Assembly has been bogged down over recent decades has damaged the wider rights and entitlements of everyone in Northern Ireland to decent public services and economic opportunities. Those who have withdrawn governance, in this stand-off or the previous one, which was ostensibly over the Irish language, are doing far more to undermine rights and entitlements than a Bill such as this will ever do.

The measure is far from perfect, and it has been a long time coming. I would like to mention two of my Gaelgóirí colleagues, Patsy McGlone and Dominic Bradley, who tried to bring forward private Members’ legislation in 2008 and 2016, before it was introduced. At least we are on the path now, even if it falls short of what was promised at St Andrews—an Irish language Act based on the experience of Wales and the Republic of Ireland. This legislation is not that, and it is fair to say that it is very far from radical. Language in the Republic of Ireland and Wales thrives in part because it is underpinned and financed by a strategy to focus on promotion, because those nations have been able to proceed without the toxification that language and identity have experienced in our region. I really, really regret that language has become zero sum—if they win this, we lose this—like a lot of other things in our region. That is not unique to Northern Ireland or the Irish language, but we all have to work to counter it.