European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill
James Brokenshire ExcerptsTuesday 22nd October 2019
(4 years, 6 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill 2019-19 View all European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill 2019-19 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Sir David Lidington
I recognise the concerns expressed by business, although I also note that the view expressed by business representative organisations in Northern Ireland has generally been that Parliament should go ahead with this deal and enact the legislation, but then address the concerns that the hon. Gentleman rightly identifies that they raised. I therefore ask my right hon. Friends on the Front Bench to also act swiftly to minimise the impact that additional inspections and red tape required by the new policy will impose on Northern Ireland businesses. That might include financial support, particularly to small and medium-sized enterprises to enable them to buy and operate new systems; efforts to simplify or dedramatise checks and form-filling required; and for the Government to give urgent priority to such measures as seeking a veterinary agreement with the European Union and other such arrangements that would enable the risks to Northern Ireland business to be minimised.
Sir David Lidington
If my right hon. Friend will forgive me, time is limited.
I believe that this House also needs to take account of the shift we are seeing in attitudes among other Governments in the European Union. Sometimes I think that colleagues in this House are a little guilty of wishful thinking. Frankly, those Governments are no longer hanging on, hoping somehow that the United Kingdom will change its mind. They are impatient. They are increasingly exasperated with all political parties and at the ability of the UK political system to take a decision on this matter. As far as the EU Governments are concerned, they want this brought to an orderly conclusion as soon as possible in a way that does as little harm as possible to the interests of the EU27. That interest includes the future constructive and close relationship that they—like, I believe, most in the House—wish to see between this country and the continuing European Union.
There are strategic challenges that face our country and every other European democracy. We debate them when we are spared time from debating Brexit: climate change, terrorism, serious and organised crime, and the mass movement of people. As European democracies, we are having to confront those challenges in the context of a shifting balance of world power, with a Russia that is aggressive and actively seeking to divide democratic European states, a China that is assertive and offering economic opportunity but championing a model for government and society at odds with that embedded in our own democratic and liberal values, and a United States whose unquestioning support for European security and a rules-based international order can no longer be taken for granted. I believe that because of the referendum result we have to leave, and we need to get on with the task of trying to build a different but close and enduring partnership with our European neighbours and allies and to work together to meet the challenges that confront us all as fellow democracies on a shared continent. Passing this Bill will enable us to take one step closer towards starting on that task.
Prime Minister’s Statement
James Brokenshire Excerpts(4 years, 6 months ago)
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The Prime Minister
The hon. Lady is making a very important point. People feel very strongly about this matter, and they also feel very differently about it. What we have today is an opportunity to take the country forward with a new relationship that allows people who feel wholeheartedly passionate about Europe to express those feelings. Yes, students, professors, academics, artists and creators of all kinds will be able to share their enthusiasms with their friends across the EU under this deal; that is vital, and it is part of our ambition for the UK and for Europe.
James Brokenshire (Old Bexley and Sidcup) (Con)
I support my right hon. Friend in securing this deal, but he will acknowledge the concerns that have been expressed in relation to Northern Ireland. In addition to the commitments that he has given, especially over the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, please will he reaffirm his commitment to a new deal for Northern Ireland, investing in its infrastructure, investing in its prosperity and investing in its future as a proud part of our precious United Kingdom?
The Prime Minister
I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend for everything that he has done for Northern Ireland. I think he would agree that the one thing that would really make a difference now to all those policy fields in Northern Ireland, and take Northern Ireland furthest forward the fastest, would be if we could get the Stormont Assembly up and running again and if the parties came together for government in Northern Ireland once more.
Brexit Negotiations
James Brokenshire Excerpts(4 years, 6 months ago)
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The Prime Minister
I do not wish to be unnecessarily adversarial today, but that seems a satirical thing for the right hon. Gentleman to say, given that his party is refusing to concede to a general election. I am very happy to discuss these ideas with him. They in no way correspond with the caricature that he has just put to the House. This is a very serious way forward, and it gives the country an opportunity to improve our environmental and social welfare standards.
James Brokenshire (Old Bexley and Sidcup) (Con)
I commend my right hon. Friend for his clear intent to ensure that we leave with a deal on 31 October. He has set out a detailed and considered proposal and, despite the protestations of the Labour party, I hope that the EU will engage with the proposal constructively.
In this context, the Prime Minister will feel as keenly as I do the continuing absence of a fully functioning Northern Ireland Executive. What further steps will he take to get Stormont back up and running, and what assurance can he give to the people of Northern Ireland in respect of the absolute need for political decision making in its absence?
The Prime Minister
My right hon. Friend has a wealth of experience in this regard, and he did a huge amount of good both for Northern Ireland and in the cause of trying to get Stormont up and running again. Clearly, what this deal would offer is the opportunity for the Executive and Assembly of Northern Ireland, and the people of Northern Ireland, to have even more of a say in their own destiny. In that sense, it takes forward and builds on the peace process, one of the great achievements of the last 30 years. I think that it is full of hope for the people of Northern Ireland. In my view it gives them an extra incentive to get Stormont up and running, and I can assure my right hon. Friend that we are working very hard to do just that.
Salisbury Incident
James Brokenshire Excerpts(6 years, 1 month ago)
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The Prime Minister
Once again, I thank the hon. Gentleman for the remarks he has made today and the support that he has given to the Government, as he did on Monday. We talk to the United Nations about reform of the United Nations in a whole variety of ways. The Catch-22 is that any decision that might be taken in the Security Council to reform it could be subject to a veto by Russia, which is sitting there, but the point has been raised not just by the hon. Gentleman but by others, and this is something that we will look at.
James Brokenshire (Old Bexley and Sidcup) (Con)
The Prime Minister has underlined to the House that the Russian state has either been utterly reckless at best, or at worst, directly complicit in the deployment of a harmful substance on our soil. She said in the statement that she would be taking new measures to harden our defences against hostile state activity. With that in mind, will she ensure that the appropriate balance is provided between counter-terrorism and counter-espionage to ensure that our excellent security and intelligence agencies are appropriately focused to combat and directly disrupt those who would cause harm in our country?
The Prime Minister
I say to my right hon. Friend, who also, as a former Security Minister, has a particular knowledge and understanding of these issues, that I entirely take the point that he has made. We constantly ensure that the balance is right between counter-terrorism and counter-espionage, and we will of course continue to ensure that that balance is maintained properly.
Oral Answers to Questions
James Brokenshire Excerpts(6 years, 1 month ago)
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The Prime Minister
We are committed to devolving powers to local areas where it will deliver better local services, greater value for money and clearer accountability. I am pleased to say we have already agreed an ambitious devolution deal with Sheffield city region, which when completed will bring in about £1 billion of new investment to the area. I hear the hon. Gentleman’s enthusiasm for more devolution in Yorkshire, and I am pleased to say that my right hon. Friend the Housing Secretary met a group of councils from Yorkshire yesterday to discuss these very ideas.
Mr Speaker
It is excellent to see the right hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire) back in his place.
James Brokenshire
Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is very good to be back. Last year, I had the privilege to open the Guy’s Cancer Centre at Queen Mary’s Hospital in Sidcup in my constituency, not knowing then how relevant that might be to me. I pay tribute to the NHS and the outstanding people who work within it. My own treatment has been absolutely outstanding. I know that early diagnosis and early treatment is key. With that in mind, will my right hon. Friend see that the lung health check programme, announced by NHS England in November, is implemented as speedily and as widely as possible? Will she do all she can to challenge the stigma attached to lung cancer and some of the false judgments that are made, so that it receives the attention it deserves and those suffering with the disease receive the care they need?
The Prime Minister
I am absolutely delighted to see my right hon. Friend back in his place in this House. I also commend him for the interviews that he gave over the weekend and the way that he spoke about his own experience. He is absolutely right about early diagnosis. The message that he gave from his experience needs to be one that we all promote around the country—if there is the slightest doubt, if something happens that you think is potentially problematic and the sign of something, please go to the doctor and get it checked out. There are many men, particularly, who think, “Oh no, well, you know, it’s better not to. We won’t. We’ll just put up with it.” Actually, go and get it checked out, because crucially, in cancer and many other areas—but in cancers such as lung cancer, as my right hon. Friend said—if that early diagnosis and early action can be taken, it makes an enormous difference to the patient. I assure my right hon. Friend that we are looking very carefully at and monitoring the effectiveness, particularly, of the scanning of high-risk groups, and we will be looking carefully at the results of that. As he says, we need to ensure that we get rid of the stigma of lung cancer and that anybody who has the slightest suspicion of a problem goes to the doctor, gets themselves checked out and gets the treatment that they need.
Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland: Border Arrangements
James Brokenshire Excerpts(6 years, 1 month ago)
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Urgent Questions are proposed each morning by backbench MPs, and up to two may be selected each day by the Speaker. Chosen Urgent Questions are announced 30 minutes before Parliament sits each day.
Each Urgent Question requires a Government Minister to give a response on the debate topic.
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Mr Lidington
What we have today is something that Monsieur Barnier has described as not necessarily the final version, because this is a draft that the Commission is tabling not for negotiation, but for discussion among the EU27 member states and the European Parliament. When the text comes to the table for negotiation, we will obviously consider that option. As the Prime Minister said earlier, it is important that there is not cherry-picking, and that the text of the withdrawal agreement, when it is eventually concluded, reflects all the paragraphs of the joint report equally. My feeling, from the brief reading I have had so far, is that the current draft does not do that.
James Brokenshire (Old Bexley and Sidcup) (Con)
I welcome what my right hon. Friend has said in pointing back to the joint report from just before Christmas, which underlined the commitment of the UK and the EU both to the Belfast Good Friday agreement and to the constitutional settlement of the UK. In that regard, will he confirm that the joint report highlighted that primarily, we need to focus on dealing with the Northern Ireland border through the broader negotiations, and will he encourage colleagues to focus on the August report that the Government published, which set out in detail how we should do that?
Mr Lidington
My right hon. Friend gives some very good advice. We are certainly committed to taking the negotiations forward in that spirit.
Oral Answers to Questions
James Brokenshire Excerpts(6 years, 4 months ago)
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Damien Moore (Southport) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (James Brokenshire)
The threat from Northern Ireland-related terrorism continues to be severe within Northern Ireland, meaning an attack is highly likely. This Government will always give the fullest possible support to the brave men and women of the Police Service of Northern Ireland and MI5. We remain fully committed to keeping people safe and secure, and to ensuring that terrorism never succeeds.
Damien Moore
Does my right hon. Friend agree that, although much of our time and focus are spent on international terrorism threats, it is vital that we do not lose sight of the very real and continuing threat from dissidents in Northern Ireland? In that context, will he commend the ongoing work of the Police Service of Northern Ireland in disrupting their activities?
James Brokenshire
I absolutely will. There have been five confirmed national security attacks so far in 2017, and a small number of dissident republican terrorist groupings continue their campaign of violence. The threat is suppressed by the brave efforts of the PSNI and others, and by the strategic approach that we pursue. The PSNI and others who work to keep people safe have our full support for the public service they give.
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)
The Secretary of State will be aware that a significant proportion of the resources available to the Police Service of Northern Ireland to fight terrorism has to go towards investigating legacy cases. Will he give a commitment that any money used for legacy cases will be replaced to ensure that the PSNI has the resources it needs to combat the existing terrorist threat?
James Brokenshire
The right hon. Gentleman may know that we have committed specific funds—an extra £32 million a year over the five-year spending review period—to deal with Northern Ireland-related terrorism. His point about legacy is valid and important, which is why we both want to see the Stormont House bodies take forward a new approach to legacy. That is what I want to see in the new year.
Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)
My right hon. Friend will be well aware of the potential security implications of the Bombardier-Boeing dispute. In their telephone conversation yesterday, was the Prime Minister able to raise her concerns with the President directly?
James Brokenshire
There have been various discussions with the US and Canadian authorities, and with Bombardier itself, in relation to the continuing dispute. Obviously, we see this as unjustified and unwarranted. We await the latest determination, but we will continue to challenge this and to underline our key focus and endeavour on seeing that those important jobs in Belfast are protected.
David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
Does the Secretary of State expect still to have access to the European arrest warrant to bring back criminals and terrorists who reside in the Irish Republic and commit acts in Northern Ireland?
James Brokenshire
The right hon. Gentleman, with his experience, will know about the cross-border work. I commend the work of the PSNI and the Garda Siochana in delivering security on the island of Ireland. Their very close co-operation points to a number of EU-related structures, which is why, knowing the significance and importance of deepening that relationship into the future, we want to see a new treaty established that is able to respond and address that co-operation.
Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op)
Gerald Jones (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab)
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (James Brokenshire)
We have been clear that the UK as a whole will be leaving the customs union and single market. We want our future relationship with the EU to be a deep and special partnership that works for all parts of the UK, while recognising Northern Ireland’s unique circumstances.
Preet Kaur Gill
If, at the end of this process, Northern Ireland remains aligned with the single market and customs union while the rest of the UK is not, what impact do the Government believe that will have on the Northern Irish economy?
James Brokenshire
As the joint report highlighted last week, there are three steps: reaching a free trade agreement; then providing responses that meet the unique circumstances of Northern Ireland; and, finally, the issue of alignment. We believe that it is possible and that we will address all these issues to ensure that we have not a hard border but a frictionless border that maximises the trading relationship without creating any new barriers between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, where there is a reliance on trade, which is so important to the economy.
Gerald Jones
Has the Secretary of State’s office shown more diligence than the Department for Exiting the European Union in producing impact assessments on the effects to the Northern Ireland economy of all eventualities of leaving the European Union—and if not, why not?
James Brokenshire
I know this issue of impact assessments has been debated in this House previously. There are no formal impact assessments. Obviously, the Department for Exiting the European Union has provided detailed reports for the Select Committee, and it will be for the Committee to determine what happens with them. I can assure the hon. Gentleman of the joint working across government of assessing the implications and informing those negotiations, so that we get the right deal for Northern Ireland and for the UK as a whole.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Will the Secretary of State confirm that trade between Northern Ireland and Great Britain within the UK single market is worth five times as much as trade between Northern Ireland and the Republic?
James Brokenshire
Yes, trade—economic activity—between Northern Ireland and Great Britain is several times more than that in relation to Ireland. But the point is that we look to strengthen the whole economy. Indeed, as the UK leaves the European Union, we want to see the Irish economy equally having that access to Great Britain. A reliance is placed upon that. We want to succeed and prosper as we leave the European Union.
Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con)
Is the Secretary of State not right to highlight that Northern Ireland’s rightful place is to make sure it is aligned with the rules of the rest of the UK, which is why Conservative Members had a clear manifesto commitment to do nothing to damage the single market of the United Kingdom?
James Brokenshire
I absolutely agree with my right hon. Friend on that. Indeed, that principle was firmly enunciated through the provisions in the joint report, and that is the approach we will take as we move into phase 2 of the negotiations.
Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
As we prepare to exit the EU, it would be far better if the Northern Ireland Assembly were in place. In the light of that, will the Secretary of State comment on the report by Trevor Rainey on the pay of Members of the Legislative Assembly? Secondly, will the Secretary of State bear in mind that the same principles that apply to MLA pay should also apply to Members of Parliament who do not fulfil their functions in this place?
James Brokenshire
I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman that we want to see the Executive restored, and we will be approaching this in earnest in the new year to seek to see that re-established. That matters on so many different levels. He highlights the issue raised in Trevor Rainey’s report. I commend Mr Rainey for providing the report and I will be considering the responses carefully.
Nigel Dodds
As well as not having the Assembly, not having Executive Ministers in place is of course a major disadvantage to Northern Ireland. As the Secretary of State knows, if the Assembly were called tomorrow, the Democratic Unionist party would re-enter government, as would many of the other parties, apart from Sinn Féin. That is a dereliction of duty on its part, for which it has to answer. Does he accept that if we do not have an Executive up and running quickly, he will have to step in and provide Ministers from the Northern Ireland Office to direct Departments in the Province?
James Brokenshire
I know firmly that an increasing number of decisions need to be taken. That has been highlighted this week by the Northern Ireland civil service publishing a consultation on budgetary issues, showing some of the determinations that need to be made. I want to see Ministers and an Executive up and running as quickly as possible to do those things. Obviously, it needs to happen quickly, given the decisions that need to be taken.
Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP)
If the Irish border deal means no regulatory divergence after Brexit, can the Secretary of State tell us where the regulatory divergence between the UK and the EU will be? Will it be in the Irish sea? Does this mean Northern Ireland is staying in the customs union and single market, or will the UK simply adhere to the rules of the customs union and single market after Brexit, without having any input into the rules?
James Brokenshire
I know the Prime Minister dealt with this in her statement on Monday, but let me say that we will be leaving the customs union and the single market. The hon. Lady talks about divergence, but actually the joint report talks about alignment, which is about pursuing the same objectives. That could be the same way, but it could be different. That is the whole point. It is about achieving those positive objectives, and that is what we will do.
Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)
As you know, Mr Speaker, agriculture is more important in Northern Ireland than in any other part of the UK, and Northern Ireland is more reliant on EU farm payments than any other part of the UK, so 30,000 Ulster farmers need certainty about what Brexit is going to mean for them. In her Florence speech, the Prime Minister reassured them that transition would occur under
“the existing structure of EU rules and regulations”—
including, I presume, the common agricultural policy—but on Monday she said the opposite. She said that on 29 March 2019, we will be leaving the common agricultural policy. Which one is right?
James Brokenshire
They are both right. We have said clearly that yes, we are leaving the common agricultural policy, but we have also said that we will maintain payments in relation to those arrangements through to 2020. Indeed, if the hon. Gentleman wants to look back at what the Prime Minister said about maintaining the same arrangements during the implementation period, that will answer his question.
Owen Smith
That cannot be correct. It cannot be right both that we will be under exactly the same EU rules and regulations, which is what the Prime Minister said in Florence, and that we will be leaving the common agricultural policy. If it is true that we are leaving the common agricultural policy, those 30,000 Ulster farmers and their families need to know how they are going to pay their mortgages and meet their other commitments in just 15 months’ time. This is a complete shambles. The Prime Minister is going to be here in a minute—can the Secretary of State tell her to sort this out?
James Brokenshire
The only shambles is the Opposition’s approach to Brexit. At this time of the year, many people will mark the 12 days of Christmas; we have had at least 12 different approaches to Brexit from Labour. Yes, we will be leaving the common agricultural policy, as the Prime Minister said on Monday, but she also underlined clearly our commitment in respect of those direct payments and, as I say, the transition and the need to provide certainty. The hon. Gentleman’s scaremongering does nothing to add to this—
Mr Speaker
Order. The trouble with these answers is that they are too long.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (James Brokenshire)
As the Prime Minister has made clear, we are seeking a bold and ambitious free trade agreement that is of greater scope and ambition than any existing agreement. We are determined to reach a deal that works for the people of Northern Ireland and the UK as a whole.
Kerry McCarthy
At the Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs this morning, the Environment Secretary made it clear that the plus-plus-plus in a Canada-plus-plus-plus agreement ought to include agri-foods, which is obviously really important to Northern Ireland. What steps is the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland taking to try to ensure that that is included in any future deal?
James Brokenshire
I agree with what the hon. Lady has said: agriculture is a key part of the economy within Northern Ireland. It is something that we highlighted very firmly in our August paper and will want to take forward in the phase 2 negotiations.
Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)
In assessing the evidence around a potential trade deal of this nature, did the Secretary of State conclude, as I have, that for decades we have successfully operated the common travel area between ourselves and Ireland and we will be able to do so under a similar deal, and that any hard border in Ireland will be the responsibility of Dublin and Brussels, not London and Belfast?
James Brokenshire
We are pleased that the joint principles on the continuation of the common travel area after the UK leaves were very firmly highlighted in the joint report. I believe that there is that joint endeavour, and that is what we have been pursuing.
Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)
On the Canada-EU trade deal, Bombardier in my constituency is a company that greatly benefits from that trading relationship. Will the Secretary of State not only continue his support for Bombardier, but ensure that any future trade agreements do nothing that will injure such an important part of our local economy?
James Brokenshire
I agree with the hon. Gentleman’s comments about Bombardier and commend his work to highlight this important issue. Clearly the protection of the Northern Ireland economy and jobs will remain a focus of our attention.
Jo Churchill (Bury St Edmunds) (Con)
Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP)
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (James Brokenshire)
Customs is a matter for phase 2 of the withdrawal negotiations with the EU. The Government are committed to ensuring that the border remains open with no physical infrastructure, as set out in the joint report agreed with the EU on 8 December.
Stuart C. McDonald
When even the Government accept that their proposals for a frictionless border are untested and go beyond existing precedents, we can see why businesses read that as undeliverable, unless ongoing membership of the single market and customs union are involved. Given that the Minister insists that such membership is not necessary, will he tell us what progress has been made in exploring and designing alternative solutions?
James Brokenshire
The joint report highlights the progress that has been made. It sets out the framework that will take us into phase 2, with customs and other arrangements to ensure that there is no physical infrastructure on the border and to see that open trading relationship.
Peter Grant
The Exiting the European Union Committee visited Northern Ireland a few weeks ago, and everyone we spoke to was very anxious to press on us the fact that any change at all to the status of the Irish border would be seen as a backward step. Does the Secretary of State agree that the reddest of all red lines in the Brexit negotiations must be the maintenance of the integrity of the Good Friday agreement and the peace process that depends on it?
James Brokenshire
I do agree in terms of the maintenance of the Good Friday agreement—the Belfast agreement—and, very firmly, in terms of not seeing any hard border re-emerging, and that is what has been reflected in the joint report.
Mr Speaker
I think we should hear from the former Chair of the Select Committee. The final inquiry in this section today—Mr Laurence Robertson.
Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (James Brokenshire)
I have no current plans to propose any changes to the devolution settlement. This would be matter for discussion between the main Northern Ireland parties and the UK Government in accordance with the Belfast agreement.
Mr Robertson
I thank the Secretary of State for that answer, but given that the failing of the Executive and the Assembly to exist is detrimental to Northern Ireland, and given that it is only one party in Northern Ireland that is refusing to allow them to function, is it not time to look at the Belfast agreement to see whether we can evolve it so that, in future, the Assembly and the Executive will continue to serve the people of Northern Ireland? [Interruption.]
James Brokenshire
I agree with my hon. Friend in terms of the need to see devolved government restored. That is where the focus needs to remain and it is why the Government will be doing all that we can, and reinjecting further momentum into the process, so that we see that Executive re-established and devolved government functioning for all the people of Northern Ireland.
Oral Answers to Questions
James Brokenshire Excerpts(7 years, 2 months ago)
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Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP)
James Brokenshire
Before I answer, I would remind the House that this is the final Northern Ireland questions before the Assembly election on 2 March. These are critical elections for the future of Northern Ireland, and I would urge the parties to conduct the campaign in a manner that allows for the speediest return to partnership government. Only power-sharing government will deliver the political stability that the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland want to see, and which remains the priority for this Government to secure.
As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made clear, maintaining the common travel area is one of the Government’s 12 priorities in negotiating exit from the EU. It is the Government’s intention to deliver a practical solution that allows the maintenance of the common travel area while protecting the integrity of the UK’s immigration system.
Ian Blackford
A hard border would be disastrous for communities that live along that border, especially in economic terms. What assurances can the Secretary of State offer that the common travel area will be top of the agenda in any Brexit negotiations? Will it be more important than restricting the freedom of movement elsewhere in the UK, for instance? Will Ministers assure us that the common travel area is part of any trade deal done with the European Union?
James Brokenshire
I have already indicated the priority that is given to securing the common travel area. This is a very strong commitment that this Government have given, and a point that I have underlined on many occasions. It is also a shared intent with ourselves, the Irish Government and the Northern Ireland Executive. It is therefore with that approach, and with that shared will, that we look to the negotiations ahead, getting the common travel area secured and seeing that frictionless border that is equally important to the politics and life of Northern Ireland.
Carol Monaghan
Will the common travel area be the UK’s only area of free travel with the EU or will it be free trade and free travel?
James Brokenshire
As I have said, the priority, as set out in the 12 points that the Prime Minister made in her speech, was securing the common travel area. That has served us over so many years, dating back to the 1920s. We believe that it is really important that we seek to attain that, as well as getting frictionless trade in goods, which is also a key priority.
Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)
I welcome the Government’s determination to maintain the common travel area across our islands. Does the Secretary of State agree that the friendly relations it symbolises could only be strengthened by the Republic joining the Commonwealth as an associate member, as suggested by Senator Frank Feighan during his visit to the House yesterday?
James Brokenshire
Obviously that is a matter for the Irish Government, but the point that my hon. Friend makes about strong, friendly relationships between ourselves and the Irish Government is well made. It was with that intent, and with that theme, that the Prime Minister met the Taoiseach earlier this week and underlined the importance of continuing to work together to get the best outcome for Northern Ireland and for the island of Ireland.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that while this Government are committed to the free movement of people and goods across the whole of Ireland, it is also important that the European Union should do its bit to see Ireland right as well?
James Brokenshire
The European Union and member states recognise the significance of Northern Ireland, and the significance of the politics on the island of Ireland. Indeed, we have seen investment and political engagement from within the European Union. We will continue to underline that in the negotiations ahead, and that is why I remain positive that we can secure a good deal for Northern Ireland within the UK but outside the EU.
John Nicolson (East Dunbartonshire) (SNP)
James Brokenshire
There is broad alignment of policy in relation to the Republic of Ireland and the UK. That has been part of the bedrock of the common travel area and its existence over many years. Indeed, it is an aspect of how we have sought to create new visa issues in relation to China that have allowed travel to Ireland and also to the United Kingdom, and how co-operation between ourselves and the Irish Government is very good.
Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
James Brokenshire
As I have indicated to the House this morning, we are committed to securing the common travel area and, yes, we are also committed to dealing with issues of immigration, which were at the forefront of the campaign. The Home Office is working on the detail of a new immigration policy that I am sure will be a matter of debate in the House in future.
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)
The Government have rightly sought to identify the issues that affect different regions and sectors of the economy and to build those into their negotiating position. Regardless of the common travel area, can the Secretary of State assure us that all parts of the United Kingdom will leave the EU on an equal basis and that no special arrangements, different conditions or special circumstances will be afforded to Northern Ireland that would weaken our position within the United Kingdom and treat us differently from other parts of it?
James Brokenshire
As a Government, we are very clear about the strengths of the Union and how that matters to us all. The approach that we take is based on getting the best possible deal for all parts of the United Kingdom. Yes, there will be some specific factors in Northern Ireland of which the hon. Gentleman is well aware––we have talked about the border and there are other issues as well––but our approach is with that intent and focus. Therefore concepts of special status are the wrong approach. It is rather about looking at special factors and special circumstances and dealing with them effectively.
Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) (SDLP)
May I agree with the Secretary of State in that we are very impressed with the strength of the Union, too––that is, the European Union? Beyond the common travel area, there appears to be a significant gap between the wishful thinking and the reality of movement of goods. What assessment has the Secretary of State made of the effect of exiting the customs union on the movement of goods and services between Northern Ireland and the Republic?
James Brokenshire
As the hon. Gentleman will have seen, the Prime Minister’s speech underlined the clear desire of the Government in the negotiations ahead to get the best possible trading arrangements with the European Union and therefore we are reflecting on how we do that, whether that is some form of membership of a customs union or a bespoke customs agreement. He should be intent on our desire to get that deal and to see a frictionless border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.
Danny Kinahan (South Antrim) (UUP)
I welcome the comments of the Secretary of State on having an election that produces parties that want to work together, because that is exactly what we want. When it comes to the common travel area, have we looked at the legal implications, not just within other Departments but in how it is respected by Europe itself? Does it really exist there? Do they see it as a law that stands in place?
James Brokenshire
The hon. Gentleman may be interested to know that the ability for the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom to make arrangements in relation to the common travel area has been recognised in previous EU agreements. It is therefore that approach that we take in securing the future of the common travel area and underlining its importance to our European partners. I am positive that we can do that.
Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington) (Lab)
Stephen Gethins (North East Fife) (SNP)
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (James Brokenshire)
We are determined that Northern Ireland’s voice will be heard. All the devolved Administrations will be fully engaged in the process of preparing to leave the European Union. We will continue to consult the devolved Administrations, including through the Joint Ministerial Committee (EU Negotiations).
Stephen Gethins
Membership of the single market is obviously critical to Northern Ireland. Given the commitment to the common travel area, will the Minister tell us what blockages, apart from political ones, remain to Scotland and Northern Ireland remaining part of the single market?
James Brokenshire
The Prime Minister was robust in her stance on wanting the freest and best possible trading arrangements with the European Union to allow UK companies to operate with and trade in the EU. I hope that the hon. Gentleman supports that.
Jo Churchill (Bury St Edmunds) (Con)
James Brokenshire
I agree that Northern Ireland is a great place to do business. There are some amazing companies, entrepreneurs and businesses there. That is why we want to see Northern Ireland continue to grow and flourish and have an Executive in place at the earliest opportunity.
Chris Law (Dundee West) (SNP)
James Brokenshire
We continue to have meetings with our community sector roundtable, and only last week I met representatives of the business community through my business advisory group. I am very clear about continuing to listen intently to views across Northern Ireland to help inform our approach as we look to the negotiations ahead with the EU.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
Sinn Féin’s decision unilaterally to collapse the Northern Ireland Executive means that they have excluded themselves from any discussions on article 50. Will the Secretary of State, along with the Brexit Secretary, continue to work closely with members of the Northern Ireland parties that attend this House, to ensure that our voice is heard deeply and fully in that important matter?
James Brokenshire
The Joint Ministerial Committee met earlier this week in plenary session, and I was pleased to see representatives of the Northern Ireland Executive. We want that to continue. Obviously, in the House, I will continue to listen to the views of right hon. and hon. Members to ensure that we carefully reflect Northern Ireland’s voice.
Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)
Although the foul, mephitic fug of Brexit has cast the land into shadow, life must go on. Further to the Secretary of State’s comments, he will accept that the JMC is currently the main body for consultation with the devolved institutions. Yet this body has no authority, no Standing Orders and no fixed rules. Will the Secretary of State commit to formalising the role of the JMC, the crucial body during the negotiations in these dark days?
James Brokenshire
The Joint Ministerial Committee operates between each of the different nations of the UK and regulates those arrangements. We see it playing an important role, not only now, but in the future, with European negotiations being part of that, in seeking to ensure that the voice of the devolved Administrations is heard loud and clear and to get the best arrangements for all parts of the UK.
Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (James Brokenshire)
I know that the House will join me in condemning the despicable shooting of a police officer in north Belfast on Sunday 22 January. Our thoughts are with the injured officer, who remains in hospital, his family and colleagues.
My officials and I have regular discussions with the Justice Minister, the Chief Constable, and partners as we work to keep the people of Northern Ireland safe and secure.
Tom Tugendhat
My right hon. Friend will have the support of the whole House when he speaks so warmly of the police officer who was so brutally attacked only recently. I know the Secretary of State is working closely with the intelligence services, the military and the police to ensure security in the region. Will he please tell me a little more about what he is doing to take forward the security of an important part of the United Kingdom?
James Brokenshire
I commend the work of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, the Security Service and other agencies to keep Northern Ireland safe. The level of threat in Northern Ireland is severe, as that appalling incident underlines. I will continue to work with all partners to secure the safe Northern Ireland we want. I spoke to the Chief Constable on that issue only this morning. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. May I gently remind the House—[Interruption.] Order. We are discussing the security situation in Northern Ireland—a matter of enormous importance and gravity. Perhaps we can respond accordingly.
Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)
James Brokenshire
I agree entirely with a number of the points the hon. Gentleman has made. This was an utterly despicable act and an attack on the whole community, and should be seen as such. The Chief Constable has made those points about people feeling confident in coming forward. There is an ongoing investigation—it is very live—and we are looking through our approach to confronting paramilitarism to see that people have confidence to come forward to give evidence. That is clearly work that needs to continue.
Rebecca Harris (Castle Point) (Con)
James Brokenshire
My hon. Friend will wish to know that we have a severe level of threat in Northern Ireland from terrorism. The appalling attack we saw on a young, brave police officer just in the past fortnight underlines the nature of that threat and the fact that there are those in Northern Ireland who would wish to commit acts of violence against the police, members of our armed forces and prison officers. We must be vigilant against that threat.
James Brokenshire
I am very clear on upholding the rule of law and seeing that we support our agencies, which have that independence to pursue evidence where they see it. Indeed, there is a very live ongoing investigation to get to the bottom of that appalling act and hold those responsible to account—it was an appalling act against a brave PSNI officer who was doing his duty, upholding the law and protecting the community.
Mrs Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con)
Is not the job faced by the police in Northern Ireland to keep people safe made harder by the tendencies of the Northern Ireland courts to let terrorists out on bail, sometimes only weeks after an original arrest?
James Brokenshire
There are important issues that need to be examined and addressed in relation to the criminal justice system. Bail is one part of that, as are sentencing and the time it takes for cases to proceed. We will continue to work with the Executive to see that progress can be made.
Lady Hermon
Thank you; that is very kind of you, Mr Speaker. I am very grateful indeed.
In dealing with the security situation in Northern Ireland, the Secretary of State will recognise how important it is that the Northern Ireland Office sends a very clear message that the rule of law prevails in Northern Ireland, so will he kindly take this opportunity to put on the record his full confidence in the independence and integrity of the Lord Chief Justice, Sir Declan Morgan, and indeed the Director of Public Prosecutions?
James Brokenshire
I am very happy to do so in very clear and unequivocal terms: it is essential that we uphold the rule of law without fear or favour, and I absolutely support the work of the police and all those who are responsible for taking that forward and seeing that those who are committing the acts that we are discussing this morning are held to account and brought to justice.
Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab)
On Monday, I met a woman whose mother was killed 46 years ago and who asked me to ask the Secretary of State whether he understood that there can be no real peace unless we deal with the past. To that end and as a start, will the right hon. Gentleman commit to raise with the Irish Government the need to ensure the fullest possible public access to the papers relating to the Kingsmill murders and to deliver an effective route by which the families of those who lost loved ones at Ballymurphy can reach some form of closure?
James Brokenshire
I thank the hon. Gentleman, and his message about the raw pain and emotion that continue to be felt by so many of those who were affected by the troubles is one that I equally recognise. It is important that we can make progress in relation to the Stormont House legacy bodies. We will continue to make representations to the Irish Government on a range of issues, and I note the specific point that he raises with me this morning.
Justice and Security Bill [Lords]
James Brokenshire Excerpts(11 years, 1 month ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (James Brokenshire)
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government new clause 6—Review of sections 6 to 11.
New clause 4—Expiry and renewal—
‘(1) Sections 6 to 12 of this Act expire at the end of the period of one year beginning with the day on which this Act is passed.
(2) The Secretary of State may, by order made by statutory instrument, provide that sections 6 to 12 of this Act are not to expire at the time when they would otherwise expire under subsection (1) or in accordance with an order under this subsection but are to continue in force after that time for a period not exceeding one year.
(3) An order under this section may not be made unless a draft of it has been laid before Parliament and approved by a resolution of each House.’.
New clause 9—Recording of data relating to closed proceedings—
‘(1) Rules of court relating to closed material proceedings under this Act, and applications for them, must make provision—
(a) ensuring that key data is centrally recorded for all proceedings, including—
(i) the duration of open hearings and closed hearings; and
(ii) the number of witnesses heard in closed proceedings and the nature of those witnesses; and
(iii) the length of a closed judgment; and
(iv) whether the claimant, defendant and/or intervener applied for closed material proceedings; and
(v) whether the claimant, defendant and/or intervener contested the application for closed proceedings; and
(b) ensuring that centrally recorded data is available to the independent person appointed by the Secretary of State to review the operation of the provisions of the Terrorism Act 2000 and Part 1 of the Terrorism Act 2006.’.
Government amendments 49 and 51 to 54.
James Brokenshire
The last debate was about the principles of closed material proceedings; we now turn to a new group of amendments relating to additional reviewing mechanisms for the CMP provisions—in particular, Government new clauses 5 and 6 and associated consequential amendments.
In Committee I said that I was prepared to listen further to concerns expressed about transparency and particularly about ensuring that the new provisions did not make CMP commonplace. I undertook to table amendments on that matter. I have considered the issue carefully and decided to adopt the view of the Constitution Committee. I therefore intend to bring forward annual reporting and a review of the CMP provisions to be conducted five years after Royal Assent.
Given the often lengthy nature of litigation, we believe that the frequency set out in the amendments allows for regular but meaningful reporting and for a review to be informed by enough cases to provide for substantiated conclusions and reasoned recommendations where necessary. We believe that an annual report is the most proportionate approach, as it is anticipated that CMPs will be used infrequently.
The consequence is that there is likely to be little to report on a basis more regular than once a year. Annual reports will not, however, be the only way in which facts relating to cases involving CMPs will be made public during the reporting period. The Government have made an amendment in the Lords to ensure that when an application is made under clause 6(1), that must be reported to the other parties in the proceedings. There are already mechanisms through which the courts publish their open judgments.
The reports will focus on court procedures, as CMPs are a procedural option for the courts and not related to the use of Executive powers. The new clauses list the matters of key concern to be included in the annual reports such as the number of CMP applications and who they are made by; how many CMPs are granted and how many revoked; and how many judgments, both open and closed, are published with respect to the determination of section 6 proceedings. That would include judgments made on the substantive trial and regarding the outcome of the application for a CMP declaration. The new clauses would also cover proceedings deemed to be section 6 proceedings, such as the application process for a declaration and the review of Norwich Pharmacal certification.
In addition to an annual reporting requirement, the Government seek to introduce a provision for a comprehensive review after five years. In line with other legislation, such as the Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Act 2011, it requires the appointment of a reviewer and does not specify the remit of the review except to indicate that it covers the operation of closed material proceedings. That type of review of CMPs would be different from other reviews, in that it would concern not the operation of the Secretary of State’s powers but rather the operation of court processes. That means that the reviewer will have to take care not to review judicial decisions regarding the operation of court processes or the fair running of individual cases.
Simon Hughes
I am grateful for the fact that the Government have been responsive to the arguments made on these issues. However, I also support the proposal that there should be a renewal mechanism—a better process than a sunset clause. When the Minister addresses that point, will he reflect on the fact that we have given ourselves the chance in the past of having an annual report and annual confirmation or otherwise of terrorist legislation in Northern Ireland and other legislation in respect of which there are ongoing cases that last a long time?
James Brokenshire
I am pleased to engage in that debate. I will come to it when I address the amendments tabled by the Opposition. At this early stage, I should say that in essence it is a question of the assurance provided to external partners as well as the operation of the courts themselves. I hear the point that the right hon. Gentleman makes, but I hope he accepts that the proposal for an annual review or, in effect, an annual sunset clause in the first instance and then an annual renewal thereafter, does not leave a great deal of time for litigation, which is likely to span several years because of its nature and complexity. I am sure that we will hear more from the Opposition about why they have sought to advance this time period over anything else. There is a principle at stake as regards the assurance that we are seeking to provide through this mechanism. We have gone for the option of five-yearly reporting, with a proper examination of the operation of the Bill, to enable Parliament to be properly informed. It will then be for Parliament to consider what further steps may or may not be appropriate at that point.
We would expect such a review to take into account the views of special advocates, among others. We want to ensure that it will involve a proper examination of the operation of CMPs to consider efficiency, trends and types of cases, analysing the numbers provided in the annual reports to reflect on how CMPs are being used.
Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con)
How many CMPs does my hon. Friend anticipate there being in any one year?
James Brokenshire
Our latest estimate in October was that about 20 cases would fall within the scope of these proceedings, and the regulatory impact assessment indicates up to 15 cases annually. The point is to ensure that there is annual reporting of the forthcoming CMP applications and judgments so that Parliament is regularly updated. We will get a better sense of the situation on an annual basis than if we went for quarterly reporting. That would be too short a period given the nature of litigation and the length of time that these cases are likely to take to go through the courts.
Let me deal with the Opposition new clauses tabled by the right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) and the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter).
James Brokenshire
Before I do so, I will of course give way to my hon. Friend. We debated this issue in Committee, and I hope that he will reflect on the changes that the Government are making in the light of a number of representations that he made there.
Dr Huppert
I thank the Minister for tabling the two amendments that reflect what we discussed in Committee, where he a made commitment that he has followed through on. I have a question about new clause 6. He spoke about a five-yearly review, but that will be after only one period of five years. If that review were to say that further studies would be needed and that the system was still taking time to bed in, would there be the prospect of having further five-yearly reviews as the process continued?
James Brokenshire
A five-yearly review with, in essence, each Parliament having the opportunity to examine the operation of CMPs is appropriate. As my hon. Friend will know from our previous debates on, for example, the Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Act, my view has been that that time period or cycle gives sufficient time to enable a proper consideration of the operation of the process. The right period is five years—in essence, once a Parliament so that each Parliament can consider what may or may not be appropriate at that point.
New clause 4 provides that the new CMP provisions would expire only a year after Royal Assent unless a statutory instrument extending the provisions for a further year was laid before Parliament and approved by resolution of each House. The Government believe that the new clause would largely negate the benefit of the provisions in part 2 and that it is disproportionate. The negative impact of what would amount in the first year to a sunset clause could be very serious. As I have said, we know that litigation can be lengthy, lasting a number of months and usually more than a year, while document-heavy cases can last for several years. Creating the possibility that CMPs would cease to be available halfway through the progression of a case where the judge had already decided that a CMP was in the interests of the fair and effective administration of justice in the proceedings would, in our view, undermine the judge’s discretion.
I think that the House is in basic agreement that CMPs should be available as a tool to the judge and that the judge should have discretion on whether to use one or not. In exercising that discretion, the judge will consider whether or not he agrees with the Secretary of State’s assessment of damage to national security and how the case should be fairly run. Even once a judge has decided that a CMP should form part of the procedures in the case, each piece of material will be assessed to decide whether it should go into the CMP, be withheld entirely or be redacted, summarised or disclosed. The judge can also decide at any point to revoke a CMP and, indeed, must consider doing so after the disclosure exercise if he feels it is no longer in the interests of the fair and effective administration of justice in the case. Parliament has already decided to provide four CMPs in at least 14 settings, so we do not believe that we are introducing an entirely new concept.
I understand the origin of the new clause. In essence, it is about the provision for annual renewal of control orders under the Prevention of Terrorism Act 2005, which the Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Act repealed and replaced. The 2005 Act was passed under a greatly accelerated parliamentary timetable, with only limited opportunity for debate. By contrast, the Green Paper provided a full consultation and it is fair to say that the Bill has been through parliamentary scrutiny in the other place and this House. It is also worth underlining that the Bill’s provisions relate to the procedures of the court, rather than the exercise of controls by the Executive. I note that in the preceding debate the right hon. Member for Tooting said that we are in a “very different context”.
The circumstances in which CMPs could be used are limited to national security-sensitive cases and for hearings in the High Court, Court of Appeal, Court of Session and Supreme Court. As I have said, the judge has the discretion to determine whether a CMP is appropriate.
This problem is not likely to go away. Claimants should have the continued ability to bring claims against the Government and matters should be scrutinised by the courts, as opposed to a return to the current system, where in some circumstances justice is simply not possible. We will continue to be faced with the unpalatable dilemma of either damaging national security or potentially paying out significant sums of money.
I should also make clear that, although the Opposition’s proposed new clause applies to clauses 6 to 12, it would also affect the reviews of certificates issued by the Secretary of State under the Norwich Pharmacal clauses. Such proceedings are deemed to be section 6 proceedings because the case needs to be heard in CMP in order to ensure that its outcome is not prejudiced by having already publicly disclosed the very information with which the proceedings are concerned. Therefore, the effect of the proposed new clauses would be also to disrupt the Norwich Pharmacal clauses, which are intended to bring clarity and reassurance to intelligence-sharing partners.
International partners have expressed concerns about the Government’s ability to defend themselves and protect national security in cases where claimants make allegations against the state and its defence rests on national security material. We risk undermining the confidence of partners who share such information with us if they feel that we do not have in place secure processes to protect their material while defending Government actions.
Simon Hughes
I understand the Minister’s arguments. May I make two other points? I do not seek to defend the exact wording of new clause 4, but the argument that one cannot change something suddenly in the middle of a long court case could be dealt with by negotiating when any change would come into operation. I also remind him that it was the considered view of the Joint Committee on Human Rights that the significance of the change in the Bill merits our being very careful about the length of time for which we introduce the procedure.
James Brokenshire
We have all said in a number of ways in Committee and on the Floor of the House that we accept that this is not a perfect solution. We are not in the territory of perfect solutions when we talk about these issues.
I would make a number of points to the right hon. Gentleman. First, one purpose of the Bill is to provide assurance to our external partners on the sharing of intelligence material. Although I recognise the parallel that he draws with other court processes, that assurance is an important additional factor. If a time period was introduced, whether through a form of renewal or sunset, as one got towards the end of that period, there would be significant anxiety about what the future may hold. That would not satisfy the policy objective of giving that assurance to our external partners.
It is interesting that the Constitution Committee did not recommend a sunset clause. Its report said that the House may wish to consider the Bill being independently reviewed—not renewed—five years after it comes into force. The Government have accepted its recommendation in our new clauses.
New clause 9, which the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) may wish to speak to shortly, seeks to provide for the collection of information. We believe that that matter is addressed in a different way by our new clauses, under which the Ministry of Justice will collect and publish data on the number of declarations granted, the number of revocations and the number of final closed judgments.
Regular reporting and a full review of the operation of closed material proceedings will provide an insight into how the provisions are working in practice and a clear mechanism to provide reassurance on their operation. I urge right hon. and hon. Members to support that approach and the Government’s new clauses.
Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)
The Minister has kindly set out in some detail and in his usual authoritative way the basis for the new clauses. Members should not worry, because that is the high point of my compliments to the Government. It is downhill from here.
We had an extensive debate on this issue in Committee. In fact, we spent the whole of the last afternoon’s sitting on 7 February deliberating review, reporting and what is colloquially called sunset, but which, now that the Minister has corrected us, should be called renewal, which sounds much better. Two days before that, we debated the equivalent of new clause 9, which has been tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell).
Two things happened in the debate on review, one of which the Minister has alluded to, that did not happen at any other time during the Committee proceedings. The first is that the Minister agreed to go away and look at something that we raised and come back with further proposals. The second is that we won a vote. The hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) referred to that earlier. For the record, with the support of the Liberal Democrats and in the absence of the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley)—I do not want to prejudge how he may have voted—the vote was 9:9. The Chair, as is the convention, voted for the clause to be read a second time, but sadly, two or three seconds later, voted that it not be added to the Bill. However, it was good while it lasted.
There have been some technical changes to the new clause that we presented in Committee, and it is now new clause 4. For the avoidance of doubt, we will press it to a vote, because we believe that otherwise, proper review and renewal of this controversial part of the Bill will not be provided for.
On new clause 9, I put it to the Government in Committee that if they wanted to rely on CMPs, they should document them properly so that they had an evidence base for when they wanted to use them in the future. They were not persuaded. My hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington has referred to the contribution that Dr McNamara has made to our deliberations at all stages of the Bill. He is a legal academic specialising in open justice and proceedings related to terrorism matters, and his briefings have been extremely helpful, particularly on these provisions. He says about new clause 9:
“There does not appear to be any systematically compiled evidence of the scale of the use of secret evidence in the areas where it is currently used. There does not appear to be any publicly accessible formal or informal recording of the total overall use of CMP, or the total use within the different contexts identified by the Government. Nor is there any indication that such evidence exists out of the public eye…Where records have been requested the Executive has been largely unable or unwilling to provide records. Parliamentary questions in the Commons and the Lords have revealed a paucity of information is available to the current use of CMPs…As it stands, the Bill sets a very, very low threshold of openness for judgments under Clauses 6 and 7. Moreover, there is presently no central recording of how often CMPs are used in any courts, nor any centrally recorded information about them.”
He says that unless there is systematic recording, there is no practical mechanism by which the use of CMPs can be monitored. That is quite an indictment of the current position, and I can only repeat what I said in Committee and hope that it is more persuasive on the Floor of the House. The Minister should consider the matter for his own good, and the Government should take that point on board even if they are not prepared to support new clause 9 today.
On new clause 5, the Minister said that he would consider the issue of reporting and come back to the House, and he has done so. The new clauses on reporting that we pushed for in Committee, and those that the Liberal Democrats pushed for on a slightly different basis, were designed to emulate the situation in comparable legislation. That was why we specified a three-monthly review period. The Minister has come back to us with an annual review period, which seems somewhat parsimonious, if I may say so.
The Minister should take the point that this is controversial legislation—I would make that point even more clearly in relation to new clause 4—and touches on new ground. It contains many definitions that we are coming across for the first time, so it seems entirely appropriate that there should be more regular reviews. Perhaps we should be grateful for what we get, however, and at least the provision is for recurring 12-monthly reporting. So be it, and we do not intend to oppose new clause 5. We did not press our new clauses to Divisions in Committee but instead waited to see what the Minister would come up with. We are somewhat disappointed, but it is something, and the Government have at least listened.
New clause 6 does not do the job of new clause 4. It seems designed to act as a review for this part of the Bill, but it is wholly inadequate. Even for those who take a strong interest in this issue, including the hon. Member for Cambridge, the Government’s approach does not seem clear. I am not used to reading Liberal Democrat Voice in my spare time—that would be a terribly sad thing to do in my leisure hours—but I will read out two brief exchanges that put into focus the problem with what the Government are doing.
Mr Slaughter
I am most grateful, and I think the whole House is grateful for the Joint Committee’s work: it has taken a forensic interest, produced three substantive reports and taken a huge amount of evidence. We would all be a lot poorer in discussing this matter were it not for its role.
The Joint Committee felt able to summarise the need for the annual renewal provision in one paragraph because it had highlighted the difficulties that arose from the rejection of the Wiley balance, the rejection of last resort, the rejection of “PII first”, and the rejection of the Wiley balance in the CMP, a matter that I believe we will have an opportunity to vote on when we press amendment 38 to a Division at the end of the debate. That has not been discussed at any length and all I will say is, as a paragraph of the Joint Committee’s report makes clear,
“The Special Advocates…consider that once a CMP is ordered, and the court has to decide which documents will be “open”…and which “closed”, the court should be required to perform the Wiley balance between national security on the one hand and the fair and open administration of justice on the other.”
That is a point that the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) constantly rejects in what appears to be a wilful misunderstanding of the way the PII process works, or indeed the way that the Wiley balance works. All of the proposals, which have had great support from the Joint Committee, the other place, many parties in this House and a substantial number of senior Members on the Government Benches, are dismissed out of hand by the Government in the belief that the new formulation, the revised new formulation or the revised, revised new formulation is good enough. For all those reasons, it will be necessary to have the annual review process.
Finally, not only are there issues with which we are now familiar, some of which we have just voted on, but the Government have slipped in new proposals. The hon. Member for Cambridge mentioned amendment 28. We believe, notwithstanding the Government’s reassurances, that the aim is to destroy the use of confidentiality rings. Government amendment 47, which we believe allows—[Interruption.] The Government know what their own amendment says. There are serious, additional clauses, which I am sure will be raised in the other place. There has not been the opportunity to raise them on the Floor of the House this afternoon. They have been introduced on Report and not properly debated.
James Brokenshire
I would just say that we have had an extensive debate on all the amendments on which the hon. Gentleman suggests there has been no debate. I wonder whether he might like to reflect on that.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. What I can reflect on is that we should be sticking to the new clauses before us, and, as I have said, I know that is what we are going to do now.
Mr Charles Walker
In addressing the new clauses, the Minister said it was important to maintain confidence in our legal system—not only for us to do so, but for our many thousands of constituents to do so. That is why it is so important constantly to review the impact of closed material proceedings. The Minister gave a figure of 15 or more cases a year going through this process, which is not an inconsequential number. Since entering this place, I have seen changes to our legal system that have worried me, such as the introduction of double jeopardy, and the fact that we now seem happy to imprison people for 20 years and when we discover that they did not commit the crime for which they were imprisoned we do not think that they should have much compensation, if any. We are now going down the route of secret courts, so reviewing the impact and consequences of secret proceedings is enormously important, because many thousands of my constituents and many millions of people across the length and breadth of this country are made very nervous by this change, coming on top of other changes. What happens in other EU countries that have proceedings similar to closed material proceedings? What happens in other liberal western democracies?
I conclude my comments by saying that over the weekend a number of Conservative colleagues whom I respect and admire immensely were talking about the UK leaving the European Court of Human Rights. I would support that, but I smile when I find that on the Monday we are talking about bringing in secret courts, as the two things do not make comfortable bedfellows. Thank you very much for allowing me a brief moment on my feet, Mr Speaker.
James Brokenshire
We have had an interesting debate on these new clauses. I note that the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) described the Bill as complex, controversial and important and asked whether I would accept his analysis. I agree that it is complex, inasmuch as we are dealing with the need for closed material proceedings and the nature of sensitive material. It is controversial and it is clearly very important, as it relates to the assurances we are seeking to give to overseas partners and, obviously, to the nature of justice itself, which was very much a feature of the preceding debate. In the context of his description, I certainly recognise the need for an assurance to this House and to the public about how the powers and provisions in the Bill will be used in practice, as well as on the points that have been made about that.
In essence, that question was at the heart of our debate in Committee about the utility, effectiveness and proportionality of the use of closed material proceedings and the frequency of their use, which, in many ways, touches on the point alluded to by my hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie). We have given an indication of how many cases are expected per year, but clearly the reporting mechanism we envisage is intended to provide a sense of how many times the provisions will be used in that way.
I shall focus on a number of points raised during the debate and characterise some of the themes that emerged. The first is the question of whether there should be a formal renewal process. The Opposition have sought to interpose an annual renewal through new clause 4, but even if we accept the principle, that is simply too short a time period for the reasons given by many right hon. and hon. Members. The House would not be able to assess the effectiveness and operation of the provisions, given that we are talking about cases that are likely to run for an extended period of time.
When we considered the timing and effectiveness of a renewal provision, going back as far as the Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Act 2011, we looked back at what happened under control orders, which is perhaps the closest parallel to an annual renewal debate on which we can draw. I recall the annual debates on control orders and I am sure that the hon. Member for Hammersmith will agree that some of them were sub-optimal, to say the least. In many respects, they became—[Interruption.] They were not, perhaps, the kind of fully formed debate that the hon. Member for Hammersmith is seeking through new clause 4, because, in essence, they became a cursory discussion at the time for the annual renewal of the provision. The debates were often short, were not necessarily well attended and did not necessarily apply the level of scrutiny that he is looking for. It is difficult to see, if he is talking about a renewal 12 months after Royal Assent, what information would be available to inform consideration properly of whether the legislation was effective. If we put aside the detail of the principle, there is a clear issue with the timing.
Mr Slaughter
I do not think that the Minister’s saying that the poor quality of debate in this House is a good reason for not having annual renewal is his best point. Will he deal with a point on which I do not think he agrees with me? New provisions have been introduced to the Bill, in Committee, where they at least received some debate, and today. Amendment 46, in particular, seems to allow material that is irrelevant to the proceedings to trigger a CMP, which is a massive change that has not been debated at all because we have not had time to do so. Is that not a reason for allowing renewal after a short time?
James Brokenshire
I hesitate to tread on amendments in the previous group, but ultimately it is for this House to determine the appropriate way to examine legislation. With other legislation, it might simply be the process of review through Government activity or Select Committee activity, but in certain cases, because of the sensitivity, import or nature of the legislation, there might be some form of additional statutory provision. We have certainly touched on areas of legislation where that has had some application. For example, some sort of mechanism or review for reporting back to the House how the legislation has been used applied to previous terrorism legislation and the Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Act 2011. Because of the sensitive nature of the issues in this case, the Government have accepted that the normal scenario whereby Select Committees or other bodies are part of the general rolling assessment of legislation is not sufficient for this particular Bill. That is why we have sought to introduce the new clauses this evening.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
Now that the Minister is talking about engaging Parliament and now that his right hon. and learned Friend the Minister without Portfolio is back in his place, is it not a good moment to address the idea that Parliament should be engaged by ensuring that the reviewer who can look into all the secret aspects is appointed with the agreement of a Committee of both Houses of Parliament—namely, the Joint Committee on Human Rights?
James Brokenshire
I would say that the provisions we have sought to introduce on the appointment of a reviewer are similar to, and in line with, other legislation such as the Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Act, whereby the Secretary of State appoints the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation. The individual holding that office may well be the appropriate person to conduct this type of review or it may be someone else so that David Anderson or whoever is the holder of the office at that time is not overburdened, which could dilute the effectiveness of the independent reviewer’s analysis of the legislation. I hope that the Chairman of the Joint Committee on Human Rights would accept that the evidence and information provided by the independent reviewer has been instructive and relevant to that Committee’s consideration of the Bill.
I highlight the fact that the independent reviewer has provided quite an important perspective, looking at terrorism legislation as he does, which has added value not just to the Joint Committee’s review but to the debates we have had here. I note that David Anderson has been prayed in aid this afternoon and also in debates in the other place. We certainly recognise the value that an independent reviewer can have. I know from my discussions with other Ministers in other parts of Europe and elsewhere that the role of our independent reviewer is recognised for the importance and added value it brings in the analysis of legislation that touches on some sensitive issues.
Mr Charles Walker
I am sure I am pre-empting matters and that my hon. Friend was going to come on to this later in his speech. I asked what happens in other western European countries when it comes to reviewing closed court proceedings. Can he tell me what other European countries do on such matters?
James Brokenshire
It is difficult to answer my hon. Friend’s question. Parallels are difficult to draw in this respect. I can think of one European jurisdiction that is seeking to examine the appointment of an independent reviewer of its own terrorism legislation. We are unusual in having an individual who does such work. People are reflecting on the input from David Anderson, the current reviewer, and his predecessor, Lord Carlile, shining a light and having access to sensitive materials better to inform the debate on sensitive issues relating to terrorist legislation.
I am not seeking to avoid my hon. Friend’s question. It is genuinely difficult to draw parallels with the type of court processes and the review structure that we have in this country, and to say that another country deals with the issue by having an x year review or some sort of renewal system or independent reviewer. It is hard to make such an analysis, because countries and their systems are so different.
The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) spoke about the provision of information and the need for a database. On closed proceedings and closed judgments, there is a database which is held and managed by the Home Office and will be updated three times a year in relation to closed judgments, to ensure that special advocates are able to look at summaries of legal principles in particularly sensitive judgments. Those will be added on a less routine basis to reduce the risk of the summary being linked to a particular case, because of the sensitivity of some of the details. It is intended that summaries of all future closed judgments will be entered into the database to inform debates and discussions and the work of the special advocates.
Part of the debate has been on the principle of whether there should be an annual sunset or renewal—whatever language we choose—or whether the system should be on a five-year basis, which I know that others have suggested as an alternative, although that option is not before the House tonight. The choice that the House has is whether to accept the Government’s new clauses on the provision of information and the review, which I hope it will, recognising that this is an addition that seeks to improve the Bill and the scrutiny and analysis that it provides.
Ultimately, if we were to introduce some form of renewal, we would have to face up to the message that that gives to some of our external partners on the control principle and the sharing of intelligence, given that one of the principles behind the changes being introduced is to give assurance to our external partners, recognising the point that David Anderson and others have made that, in essence, our relationship with a number of external partners has been affected by some cases. If we were to provide an annual renewal, it would materially impact on that. Equally, if we were to provide a further formal five-year renewal in the Bill, our judgment is that that would not provide the assurance to our external partners that is anticipated for our intelligence relationships.
Mr Tyrie
I am a little concerned that I am listening to a suggestion that the legislation is somehow for the benefit of our closest allies, the United States. It should be pointed out that the United States does not rewrite its law to take account of the fact that we send some of our intelligence material to it. Indeed, it is often argued that it is a good deal more leaky than we are. A former head of the CIA counter-terrorism centre recently remarked that he supposed that British intelligence must be very unhappy because it is often exasperated, quite reasonably, with its American friends, who are far more leak prone than it is. Nor has it sought to change its system of law to take account of our requests. Is that not one of my hon. Friend’s weakest arguments?
James Brokenshire
My hon. Friend says that it is a weak argument, but I disagree. An important part of the Bill is to ensure that justice is achieved in those cases where otherwise evidence would be excluded. Also, through the Norwich Pharmacal provisions, assurance is given that the control principle will be adhered to. That important provision needs to be considered as part of this segment of the Bill and when considering five-year renewal or otherwise. In essence, once we get towards the end of the five-year period, the assurance will not be there. People will be considering what the situation would be, and the issues around the control principle and the assurance that we seek to give to external partners are relevant factors for consideration in this context.
On the point made by the hon. Member for Cambridge on the ISC, under the Bill the ISC’s function will be to oversee the expenditure, administration, policy and operations of the security and intelligence agencies and other Government activities in relation to intelligence or security matters. In the course of that work, it may come across information relevant to this issue and it would be open to the committee to report on those matters to Parliament or to the Prime Minister if it found evidence that the Government may have been abusing the CMP. The ISC has the ability to examine some of these issues if that helps for the scrutiny that is applied in respect of the Bill.
The hon. Member for Hammersmith highlighted the conditions for a declaration to be made. They can be met on material that a party other than the applicant is required to disclose. Amendment 46 makes it clear that the two conditions for a declaration to be made can be met and based on such material. I do not know whether that is helpful to him in the context of the points that he made.
Ultimately, the House will need to determine whether the Government’s new clauses are sufficient. We believe that they are; they allow for a reviewer to look at the legislation in five years’ time. Following the report that the reviewer provides, it is open to the House to re-legislate if it considers that change is needed. Equally, we judge that the legislation on the provision of information gives assurance within an appropriate period on how the Bill will be used.
Others may take a contrary view, but we judge that the new clauses are appropriate. We recommend them to the House, because it is important for us to have the transparency and that ability to consider. That is precisely what the new clauses will give us.
Question put and agreed to.
New clause 5 accordingly read a Second time, and added to the Bill.
New Clause 6
Review of sections 6 to 11
‘(1) The Secretary of State must appoint a person to review the operation of sections 6 to 11 (the “reviewer”).
(2) The reviewer must carry out a review of the operation of sections 6 to 11 in respect of the period of five years beginning with the day on which section 6 comes into force.
(3) The review must be completed as soon as reasonably practicable after the end of the period to which the review relates.
(4) As soon as reasonably practicable after completing a review under this section, the reviewer must send to the Secretary of State a report on its outcome.
(5) On receiving a report under subsection (4), the Secretary of State must lay a copy of it before Parliament.
(6) Before laying a copy of a report before Parliament under subsection (5), the Secretary of State may, after consulting the reviewer, exclude from the copy any part of the report that would, in the opinion of the Secretary of State, be damaging to the interests of national security if it were included in the copy laid before Parliament.
(7) The Secretary of State may pay to the reviewer—
(a) expenses incurred by the reviewer in carrying out functions under this section, and
(b) such allowances as the Secretary of State determines.’. —(James Brokenshire.)
Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.
New Clause 4
Expiry and renewal
‘(1) Sections 6 to 12 of this Act expire at the end of the period of one year beginning with the day on which this Act is passed.
(2) The Secretary of State may, by order made by statutory instrument, provide that sections 6 to 12 of this Act are not to expire at the time when they would otherwise expire under subsection (1) or in accordance with an order under this subsection but are to continue in force after that time for a period not exceeding one year.
(3) An order under this section may not be made unless a draft of it has been laid before Parliament and approved by a resolution of each House.’.—(Mr Slaughter.)
Brought up, and read the First time.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.
Justice and Security Bill [Lords]
James Brokenshire Excerpts(11 years, 4 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Clarke
The balance is indeed difficult to draw. We have debated the balancing test on various occasions and in the past I have rather resisted it because it gives rise to the possibility of the judge saying, “Oh yes, there is a risk to national security. What a pity, never mind. I wish open justice to be done, so let’s take a chance with national security.” That is probably a somewhat broad-brush piece of opposition, and we are reflecting on the issue. The proper response to the right hon. Lady’s entirely sensible and pertinent question is probably best given in Committee, when we will have had more time to decide the position.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (James Brokenshire)
indicated assent.
Mr Clarke
My hon. Friend is nodding; he will be presenting our reactions.
“Norwich Pharmacal” is the phrase used by lawyers to describe a process that grew up in the sphere of intellectual property law, in which someone is enabled to apply for the disclosure of evidence—documents, usually—relevant to a claim that they are making. It is used to force a third party who is mixed up, however innocently, in suspected wrongdoing, to disclose information that a claimant feels may be relevant to a case that they are bringing in some other jurisdiction, usually abroad.
In 2008, as a result of ingenious arguments, the Norwich Pharmacal principle was extended to national security law. The purpose of proceedings under the principle now is for people involved in a legal process of some kind, usually overseas, seeking to obtain disclosure of intelligence material in the hands of the British Government.
As the purpose of the proceedings is only disclosure—no other judgment is being sought—the Government do not have the option to withdraw from or settle proceedings; if the judge orders disclosure, there is no option but for the Government to release the secret intelligence. That has given rise to understandable fears that if a person shares information with the British Government’s agencies, British judges have the power to order the release of some of it and that person cannot be certain of being able to resist that.
There is no point in my setting out obvious platitudes about the nature of intelligence work. If intelligence agencies are not able to guarantee to their sources, be they friendly overseas Governments or agents, that they can keep secrets, people will not share so much information with them. Lives will literally be at risk in some cases as will international co-operation on such vital issues as torture prevention and human rights.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (James Brokenshire)
I am grateful for the range of contributions that have been made today, including those made by informed members of the Intelligence and Security Committee, the Joint Committee on Human Rights, and the Justice Committee. This is an important Bill, and it is right for it to be the subject of such vigorous and thorough debate in the House.
As is plain from the quality of the debate since the introduction of the Bill, these are challenging matters, and I respect the concern that we should get the balance between justice and security right. The changes in the global landscape present us with a number of complex problems that we cannot ignore. The concepts of justice, the rule of law and human rights are fundamental principles of which our nation has a rich heritage.
Having carefully examined our options, we believe that the Bill will enable us to tackle the problems that we face both justly and securely, but I accept what has been said by a number of Members today about some of those difficulties. The Chairman of the ISC, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind), said that the Bill was not perfect, but was a great deal better than what we have at present. My hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) said that we must start with the world in which we find ourselves, rather than the world that we might like it to be.
Those themes were underlined during the debate, along with other challenges that were mentioned by Members. I was struck by what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford West and Abingdon (Nicola Blackwood) about the changes that had been made in the Lords, and the impact that they had had on her impressions of the Bill. I was also struck by the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker) about the need to ensure that liberty and justice were appropriately balanced. I can say to him very clearly that this is not about expediency but about how we can ensure that the difficult challenges of providing safety and security while reflecting justice are properly reflected in the changes made to the Bill. The same applies to the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes).
I recognise that some Members in the Chamber this afternoon are fundamentally opposed to the Bill in principle and do not accept that the provisions are balanced in the way that I have characterised them. The speeches from the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), my hon. Friend the Member for Dewsbury (Simon Reevell) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) underlined some of those themes. The situation we are in at the moment is not right, however, and does not meet many of the objections they proffered against the Bill. We believe that it will make an important improvement to the situation by ensuring that difficult cases, which cannot be heard at all because the evidence does not come within the ambit of the court or the public view, are put before a judge so that justice can be done.
The points made by the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears), which were reflected in the speeches made by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) and the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), underlined that if there is no adjudication, that is unsatisfactory for justice, particularly in the context of the cases that are settled in which there is a defence for the Government but the moneys have to be paid out. We judge the reputational risk that poses for the Government and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Ben Gummer) highlighted, for those individuals concerned in those particular cases to be significant.
We have seen significant changes over the past few decades in the evolving threat from terrorism. The UK faces a global terrorist threat from beyond our shores and our intelligence services are heavily committed to protecting our national security by tackling those threats. We are also now in a more litigious society and the combined effect has seen an increase in numbers of civil claims against the Government. The problem is that in these cases, the material the Government need to defend their case is often classified and cannot be disclosed to the court without compromising operations or risking the sensitive sources and techniques on which we rely to keep the people of this country safe. As the former Lord Chief Justice, Lord Woolf, said in Committee in the Lords,
“PII has the very unfortunate effect that you cannot rely on the material that is in issue, whereas both the claimant and the Government may want to rely on that material.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 11 July 2012; Vol. 738, c. 1189.]
The result is that at present the courts cannot rule in those cases, so the Government might be left with no option but to settle. That is why the Bill seeks to introduce the use of closed material procedures in a small number of cases that hinge on sensitive national security material.
Some hon. Members have suggested that the public interest immunity system is perfectly adequate to deal with national security matters. Let me be clear that the Government are not trying to abolish PII through this Bill: it will continue to exist and be used in certain contexts. Without the possibility of a closed material procedure, however, a very small number of cases that hinge on national security-sensitive information will not be able to reach a conclusion. When the very material that would determine a case would be excluded from PII, the case cannot be fairly concluded without a forum for it to be heard in. If it is central to the Government’s case, the case cannot proceed and the Government may have to settle. Vast sums of taxpayers’ money could be paid out as a result.
Some have argued that PII leads to more information being disclosed than would be the case under a CMP, but we do not accept that that is the case. The court can order the disclosure of material, notwithstanding the damage that would be caused to national security. But the Government then have the choice not to rely on that material, to make admissions or to seek to settle the case entirely. That means that such a damaging disclosure is never made. So, in practice, we believe that no evidence that can currently be heard in open court will be put into closed proceedings in future. Only evidence that would otherwise not see the light of day will be heard by a judge in closed proceedings.
There have been concerns that the claimant will be kept in the dark about accusations against them, though I hope it has been made clear through a number of contributions to today’s debate that that is not the case. It does no harm to restate that the Bill will introduce closed material procedures only in civil cases, not criminal cases, where the Government are the defendant, and claimants will have full knowledge of the allegations that they are making.
CMPs will allow the Government to defend their case and the claimant will have a special advocate working on their behalf, fighting their case. Moreover, it could well be that information that could be considered in a closed material procedure is of benefit to the claimant, and having the case heard using a closed material procedure does not guarantee that the Government will win.
Mark Durkan
Will the Minister address the implications of schedule 2 part 2 as it applies to Northern Ireland? That provides that where the court is of the opinion that there are or that there will be section 6 proceedings, a jury can be dismissed. If there is a jury trial, the jury can be dismissed, so it is not just a matter of select proceedings. The provision fundamentally alters the nature of the trial. What reputational damage does that do to the due character of the devolved justice system?
James Brokenshire
I am clear that, as we have said throughout the debate, the measure does not relate to criminal matters. It relates only to civil proceedings. If there are concerns, I look forward to robust scrutiny, debate and discussion in Committee. I know that hon. Members on both sides will make their points clearly. As right hon. and hon. Members who have previously served on Bill Committees with me know, I welcome all those contributions and we will respond to them.
The Lords indicated that closed material procedures are absolutely necessary and strongly rejected an amendment to remove the CMP clauses altogether. It is worth noting that the amendment was defeated by 164 votes to 24. Fair points have been made. The right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) highlighted the issue of special advocates. We are working with the special advocates to establish where there may be further training needs, and on ways of dealing with some of the administrative issues and the processes involved. There are detailed points that we can return to in Committee. The right hon. Gentleman also highlighted the issue of inquests, a point that was touched on also by my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis). We have considered this, but believe that the current arrangements, with an inquiry being established, are still the appropriate way forward, but I look forward to further discussion on those matters.
I heard the points made from the Front Bench and more generally in relation to the part 1 provisions on oversight. We believe that the changes proposed in the Bill strengthen oversight. A good point was made that our intelligence agencies are better for the oversight. That view is reflected in all parts of the House, respecting and acknowledging the excellent work that they do for all of us in keeping our country safe. I look forward to further detailed discussions on those topics and on the memorandum of understanding that is being worked through with the Intelligence and Security Committee.
In relation to Norwich Pharmacal, I think that there is broad agreement across the House that the issue needs to be dealt with. Essentially, we are the only country that has this type of arrangement, which was created through jurisprudence established to deal with intellectual property cases, rather than national security cases, in which there is the ability to obtain information in that way, and that impacts on the willingness of our international partners to share intelligence information with us in respect of the control principle. Again, I look forward to discussing the matter further in Committee.
In conclusion, we strongly believe that the Bill is needed. Yes, there are difficult issues that need to be addressed, but when we look at justice and security we believe that justice is better served by ensuring that more cases are heard than are not heard. Essentially, the part 2 provisions are the fundamental issue at stake. Although I respect a number of important points that have been made this afternoon, that is the core of the issue. We believe that justice and security will be established through the Bill. Therefore, I commend the Bill to the House.
Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time.