Brexit: Healthy and Nutritious Food

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts

Thursday 20th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Boycott]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they will take to ensure that healthy and nutritious food does not become more expensive after Brexit.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, food prices depend on a range of factors, including commodity prices, currency exchange rates and oil prices. These will continue to apply after leaving the EU. Our future agriculture policy will enable farmers to produce healthy, homegrown produce. In addition, our ability to develop trade deals will maximise global opportunities that work for farmers, producers and consumers. This approach will help create a competitive domestic market, offering consumers the best price and a wide choice.

[Baroness Boycott (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Answer. I am not completely convinced by his confidence. What are the Government’s plans for Healthy Start vouchers, which are a lifeline for the most vulnerable mothers and children in society? The eligibility for, and the uptake of, these has declined dramatically in the last five years. There are currently fewer than 500,000 people eligible—a 30% reduction since 2011—and uptake by those eligible has also fallen. The price of £3.10 per week per child has not risen since 2009. Can the Minister tell us whether the Government will be encouraging more women to take up this lifeline? Will the Government look at increasing the £3.10 post Brexit, when I and many people am fairly sure prices will go up, not down?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I acknowledge the noble Baroness’s long-standing interest in these matters. She referred to the healthy food scheme. It is a £142 million scheme, which includes Healthy Start, the nursery milk scheme and the school fruit and vegetable scheme. It is really important that young people and vulnerable people have healthy food at affordable prices. This is part of helping in that regard. I will take this matter up with colleagues in other departments responsible for the food schemes. I very much encourage eligible people to claim. Clearly, milk, fruit and vegetables are an important part of diet.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, yesterday, in evidence to the EFRA Committee, Michael Gove said that, in the event of no deal, it would be particularly difficult to guarantee perishable foods coming on to the market. That would be impeded and would be likely to drive up some prices. Is it not about time that the Government were completely honest with the British people and said that, in addition to all the other adverse impacts that it would have, a no-deal outcome could have serious implications for public health in terms of access to fresh food?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, that is of course why the Government think that a deal should be made and why we are urging that as the best way forward. However, it is clearly the responsibility of any Government to plan for all scenarios. Over the last two years, the border delivery group, chaired by the Permanent Secretary at HMRC and the Second Permanent Secretary at the Home Office, has been working extremely effectively, looking precisely at ways of ensuring a steady supply of produce. On the issue of nutritional and specialist foods, especially in terms of the health service, that has been given a particular priority so that vulnerable people are in a position to receive nutritional food.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, can my noble friend indicate whether he thinks that oranges are a healthy food? If so, can he confirm that, under the customs union and our membership of the European Union, the tariffs on oranges are set higher to coincide with the Spanish harvest in order to prevent people buying cheaper oranges from South Africa and elsewhere? So leaving the customs union will mean access to cheaper nutritious food from around the world. This scaremongering has got to cease if people are going to be honest with the British people.

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[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, 60% of what we consume in this country is homegrown, and we produce 75% of all that we could possibly produce in the UK—clearly, it is difficult for us to produce oranges and other citrus fruits. There will be an opportunity in terms of part of the food chain and food supply, and our future tariff policy will ensure that tariffs are set in the best interests of UK consumers, businesses and farmers. Clearly, we have always imported a lot of food because of the difficulty of producing in this country certain foods that we all enjoy. Therefore, that is absolutely within scope and these are the sorts of things that we will consider.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, given that 80% of vets in abattoirs are from the EU and that they are vital for the safety of our meat, will the Government look at the visa system prior to Brexit? I am told by scientists that the current visa system is long-winded, impenetrable and not fit for purpose. If the system cannot be understood by highly intelligent scientists, and if it takes many hours of their valuable time to bring members of their team into this country from abroad for scientific research, there is clearly a need for urgent radical improvement. Will the Minister ensure that that happens?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I place on the record my experience of meeting many of those vets. The service provided by EU nationals in a wide range of sectors—the noble Baroness mentioned the veterinary and food safety sectors—is invaluable to us. We will want them to remain here, and indeed we will want other people to come to this country to help us in many industries. I assure the noble Baroness that we are working very closely with the British Veterinary Association and all vets to cover all contingencies, because the EU nationals working in the State Veterinary Service are invaluable to us.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

Will the Minister have a word with the secret society that runs this place and find out why the European Union Committee report Brexit: Food Prices and Availability, published in May this year, has never been debated on the Floor of this House? There is a conspiracy not to debate this issue by those who run this place.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I am a former Deputy Chief Whip and I do not feel that there are conspiracies in the work of the usual channels. I really welcome the questions we have had on food prices to give the Government an opportunity to set out what they seek to do. I will perhaps make inquiries, but I very much look forward to whenever that debate is put on the Order Paper and to the small contribution I might make.

[Baroness Jenkin of Kennington (Con)]

My Lords, may I draw the Minister’s attention to the amount of fresh food waste emanating from farms? A recent survey by the charity Feedback estimates that around 37,000 tonnes of fresh produce, or 16% of crops, is wasted every year—enough to provide 250,000 people with the recommended five portions of fruit and veg every day for a year. Much of this is to do with supermarket supply chains. Would my noble friend confirm that the Government are doing what they can to support the farming community on this loss?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

It is not only an issue for farmers but an environmental one as well, and that is why the resources and waste strategy published this week promotes awareness of the importance of bearing down on food waste both by supermarkets and by ourselves as householders. I am afraid that 70% of our food waste comes from all of us, as householders. So yes, we must do more with the supermarkets through WRAP and other means, but we must all do better ourselves. It should not be the case that we waste food, and what comes from the farm to the fork we should not waste at all.

Agricultural Subsidies

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts

Monday 3rd December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what consideration they have given to linking agricultural subsidies to the creation of buffer zones between farmland and rivers, to reduce pollution and encourage wildlife corridors.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my farming interests as set out in the register. Defra recognises that riparian buffer strips are an extremely effective measure to improve the natural environment. They link riverside habitats, provide a valuable resource for plants and wildlife, and enhance water quality. We are working with farmers and other stakeholders to design an environmental land-management system that will pay public money for public goods, delivering an environmental outcome and contributing to achieving the 25-year environment plan.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I thank the Minister for his reply, which sounds very optimistic. However, will these be compulsory? Will there be legislation about it? Will this sort of thing be in the Agriculture Bill so that re-wilding and creating such buffer zones can be absolutely everywhere, rather than just here and there?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, that is precisely why Clause 1 of the Agriculture Bill sets out that the Secretary of State may give financial assistance for, or in connection with, a number of purposes. One of those is,

“managing land or water in a way that protects or improves the environment”.

There is no doubt that there are nearly 100,000 acres of land in riparian buffer strips beyond two metres. We wish to continue with this because there are a lot of benefits to it.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a farmer. I endorse what the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, said. It is important that this money is devoted to things such as buffer strips. I also beg my noble friend that, when the new design is put into place, it is simple for everybody to understand and to pay. As he will know from the Rural Payments Agency, payments on the HLS have been disastrous for some farmers.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, having declared my interests, I have considerable sympathy with my noble friend. That is precisely why we are working and will be working with farmers, land managers, environmental experts and other stakeholders so that we get this precisely right and it is not over-bureaucratic but environmentally outcome-focused, which is so important.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, agriculture is now the number one cause of water pollution and is responsible for the largest number of serious pollution incidents. Of course, most farmers act responsibly to prevent soil run-off, pesticides and slurry polluting watercourses. However, does the Minister accept that to deal with the worst offenders—those who do not act on a voluntary basis—there must be a credible threat of enforcement of the regulations, whether now or in the future? At the moment that is sadly lacking.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

Certainly, the “polluter pays” principle is very current, and this is obviously why we are consulting on the environmental principles and governance issue. The draft legislation on that will be published before Christmas, along with consultation results. It is important that everyone, wherever they are, concentrates on reducing pollution. That is of course one of the great advantages of riparian buffer zones of a certain dimension, because you get an enhanced advantage from that.

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interests, as in the register. While I entirely endorse what the Minister said about improving the environment, could he please make sure that the waterways themselves are kept clear to prevent flooding? When riverbeds become swamped with weeds and things, the water will not flow through and away, which causes flooding.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

The noble Countess raises an interesting point about pollution and the growth of algae and so forth in watercourses. Clearly, there is a balance to all of this, because part of the use of natural capital is indeed slowing the flow. The noble Countess is absolutely right that we need to ensure that watercourses are positioned so that there is a proper flow of water, but we also need to be mindful of the slowing of flow and the use of natural capital.

[Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)]

My Lords, as the Minister knows, there is a considerable body of opinion among farmers that if they have to plant trees, they have failed in agriculture. What plans do the Government have to get across to farmers that forestry, woodland planting and farming are all part of the same show?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord; it is absolutely clear, coming from a farming background, as I do, that farming and the environment should be in harmony. To get the best produce, you need to look after the environment, soils and fertility—all this is interconnected. I have planted a few trees and they are immensely valuable, not only to the landscape but for shelter, enhancement of the environment and production.

[Earl Cathcart (Con)]

Would my noble friend agree that such environmental work has been undertaken by many farmers over many years? Some of the work is paid and some is not—like mine. Would he agree that food production must remain the prime objective for farmers, although not at any cost, obviously?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My noble friend outlines the importance of harmony. The economic benefit of pollinators and riparian strips, for example, to UK fruit, vegetable and oilseed rape production is estimated to be between £600 million and £700 million GVA per annum, so he is absolutely right. Yes, there are many examples of farmers, whether paid or unpaid, who have done a lot of environmental work. What we want to do with the environmental land management system is to enhance the environment and work with farmers.

[Baroness Parminter (LD)]

My Lords, Dame Glenys Stacey’s review of farmland inspection and regulation shows that farmers currently face a one-in-200 chance of being inspected because the Environment Agency has only 40 such officers nationwide. In the future, how will the Government ensure—particularly since the RPA will not be around to monitor cross-compliance—that the regulation of farming is properly funded so that wildlife and watercourses do not get damaged?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I had the privilege of meeting Dame Glenys only last week, and I thank her for the considerable work she has undertaken for the nation. Clearly, it is important that farmers do the right thing and, coming from a farming background, my understanding and knowledge is that overwhelmingly, that is what they wish to do. They are overwhelmingly questioning what they should do, and that is one of the responsibilities that we need to undertake. Clearly, anyone who pollutes the land wilfully and negligently needs to be brought to book; that is important.

Environment Plan

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts

Thursday 29th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether their 25-year environment plan will be underpinned by legally binding targets.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, as announced in July, we will bring forward an ambitious environment Bill early in the second parliamentary Session, building on the vision of the 25-year environment plan. We are exploring possible wider legislative measures which could be included in that Bill. Furthermore, the Bill will establish a new independent statutory environment body to hold government to account on environmental standards. Draft legislation on environmental principles and governance will be published before Christmas.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for that reply. However, can he explain the difference between the draft indicator framework—a horribly technical term—which currently seems to be being developed, and which seems to be about monitoring the current status of the environment, and, on the other hand, legally enforceable targets? Those are the only way to guarantee improvements in areas such as air and water quality, soil health, biodiversity gain and resource efficiency, which the plan indeed promises. Is there any truth in the press reports that, once again, the Treasury is blocking Michael Gove’s attempts to make those targets legally binding?

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[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the noble Baroness indicates the work that is going on with 100 experts from Defra and arm’s-length bodies on the framework, including the Natural Capital Committee, so that we have indicators from the plan that ensure both transparency and accountability. This will come forward as draft legislation, and I cannot pre-empt that, but there will obviously be pre-legislative scrutiny, and I very much hope that noble Lords will engage in that. That is precisely what we should be doing, because we want to advance the environment—the whole basis of the 25-year environment plan—and put it on a statutory basis.

[Lord Krebs (CB)]

My Lords, I understand, and hear very often, that this Government have a commitment to protect the environment and, indeed, to leave it in a better state than they found it. Can the Minister explain how he reconciles this ambition with the fact that the budget for the body charged with protecting habitats and species in England, Natural England, has been slashed by 45% during the last five years? According to its chairman, Andrew Sells, Natural England is now gagged by Defra so that it cannot make independent statements to the press. In case this is seen as part of overall austerity, I remind noble Lords that Defra has increased its own headcount by 1,300 staff.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the 25-year environment plan will involve: environmental land management; an environmental net gain principle; a resources and waste strategy coming forward; a clean air strategy coming forward; a review of national parks already in place; and we are reducing plastic waste. These are just some examples of the Government’s intent, the strongest possible intent, that we shall be the first generation to enhance the environment. As for Natural England, it does a very good job. All public bodies have had to ensure that we find enough money for essential services during a very difficult time after 2008, and that has borne fruit. That is how the vulnerable, at a very difficult time, were cared for.

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

My Lords, as the Minister has indicated, the targets are due to be published shortly. Polling has consistently found a high public demand for targets in law to protect the environment, which is very dear to the public’s heart. Will there be public consultation on the targets and, if so, when, given that the targets are about to be published?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, after the draft legislation on the environmental principles and governance has been published, there will be a period of pre-legislative scrutiny. Indeed, there has already been consultation, and responses to that consultation, on the principles and governance. That will also be published; we are continuing to analyse the responses. There is a lot of work in process, and a lot of that will come forward so that there is pre-legislative scrutiny and, indeed, further public reflection.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I would like a better answer if possible to the original Question. Legally binding targets are, quite honestly, non-negotiable for many of us here. Secondly, there is no point to those targets if we do not have a body with the powers to hold public and private organisations—the Government and, for example, car manufacturers—to account. Will the new body have those tough powers?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I apologise that I am not in a position today to go beyond a certain point because I must not pre-empt what is coming forward. All I can say is that these are issues that have come forward and been aired in the consultation. We will bring forward proposals; Parliament will have time to look at them before Christmas, I hope. We will make sure it is possible for Parliament to reflect on this, and will ensure further observations too. We want to get this right. It is essential that we enhance the environment.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Government welcome the present campaign called “Extinction Rebellion”? It is designed to give people time to reflect when they are stuck at traffic lights that they are sitting in a very polluting vehicle in the middle of a city. I do not know how many noble Lords have been held up by traffic. I understand the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, was held up for seven minutes and looked extremely happy to be reflecting. Is this not something we should be taking more seriously, to help implement the IPCC’s report, which came out last week, on global warming targets?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the noble Lord has said something very important. The City of Westminster has also had a “stop idling your engine” policy. This is all about how we ensure that, whether near schools or traffic lights, wherever there are jams people switch their engines off. This is where we get the accumulations of pollution in particular. We need to think about it; I agree with the noble Lord. We need to be doing more ourselves to counter pollution.

Infrastructure Planning (Water Resources) (England) Order 2018

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts

Monday 26th November 2018 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

That the draft Order laid before the House on 18 October be approved.

Considered in Grand Committee on 21 November

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I do not wish to detain the House, but I could not be in the Grand Committee on Wednesday and I have a very simple question. I congratulate my noble friend on bringing this order to the House, but my concern relates to the provisions of the Reservoirs Act 1971. We need more reservoirs and more water to be retained on land by farmers, landowners, golf clubs and caravan parks. Can he put my mind at rest that this provision will be entirely in keeping with, or even amend, the Reservoirs Act to make that possible?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I understand that it is the Reservoirs Act 1975. This provision deals with the Planning Act 2008 and, as I described in Grand Committee, this is an entirely separate matter. All matters relating to safety encompassed by these major projects also come within the prism of the Reservoirs Act 1975, so these are extensions of the Planning Act 2008.

Motion agreed.

Infrastructure Planning (Water Resources) (England) Order 2018

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts

Wednesday 21st November 2018 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Infrastructure Planning (Water Resources) (England) Order 2018.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, the purpose of the order is to amend the Planning Act 2008. The Act sets out a streamlined national planning process for infrastructure projects which are “nationally significant”. If a project meets certain thresholds set out in the Act, it will be considered under it, with the Secretary of State as the decision-maker.

This order will change the thresholds under which reservoirs, dams and water transfers will qualify as “nationally significant”.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

Can the Minister explain what the driver is behind this order? Who is pushing for it?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the Government are pushing for it on behalf of the nation in so far as we undertook consultation. With climate change and population growth, we need to prepare. We wish to place a greater emphasis on the environment and therefore to deal with overabstractions. We need to find ways of having sufficient water, given the projections of an increase in population. This is about planning. We do not expect the projects to which this measure will apply to take place in the next five years; this is about forward planning. We think that these changes will probably embrace about six projects in England. The noble Lord asked who is driving this. We need to take a public responsibility to ensure that there is sufficient water for the nation. Yes, we should cut consumption where we can, but, because of population growth and climate change, we are bringing forward this measure now as part of our forward planning. It will involve public engagement, but that is the background to it.

On conclusions and criteria, we needed to make sure that we consulted, so we consulted on our initial proposals last November and then held a more detailed consultation in April. There was broad support for our approach from a range of stakeholders who responded, including water companies, environmental groups and other interested groups.

In reaching a conclusion on the new thresholds, we considered a number of factors, including the physical size of the infrastructure in question, the size of population that could be served by its output and the major infrastructure the Government anticipate will be needed in future. This is likely to require developers to engage with a number of planning authorities and other regulatory regimes. We also wished to move to a level playing field so that different water resource schemes are all required to meet thresholds that are as consistent as possible to qualify for consideration under the Act. This should help avoid developers favouring one scheme over another just because they prefer one planning route over another.

In making these amendments, we are introducing a consistent metric to measure the output of each infrastructure type. This metric is known as deployable output and is commonly used by the water industry for water resource planning. Deployable output is an annual average measure of the number of litres of water a particular piece of infrastructure can be expected to produce in a day under drought conditions. We concluded that a project expected to have a deployable output of 80 million litres per day—a level that could serve a population of around half a million people—is a nationally significant infrastructure project.

As explained, the order will amend qualifying thresholds for two existing infrastructure types mentioned in the Act and introduce a third—desalination plants. In the case of water transfers, this order would reduce the size of the threshold that projects would need to meet to qualify as nationally significant in line with the number of people served—that is, 80 million litres per day.

There will now be two ways for reservoirs to qualify for the streamlined planning process under the Act. The order would introduce a deployable output measure, consistent with transfers. However, we have chosen to retain a measure based on physical volume, recognising that the size of reservoirs matters. This is not just because of the impact they can have on neighbouring communities, but because a large reservoir takes a long time to drain down. Thus, with a relatively low deployable output, it can be an important part of overall water resource resilience. We have increased the volume for reservoirs to qualify under the Act from 10 million cubic metres to 30 million cubic metres.

We have also introduced desalination plants as a new infrastructure type. Consistent with the other infrastructure types, if the deployable output of a given desalination plant is expected to exceed 80 million litres per day, the project can be considered under the Act.

While the national level is the right one for decisions on nationally significant infrastructure, it is vital that those communities directly affected have their say and are heard in the decision-making process. The Act and regulations made under it set out the consultation requirements for development consent order applications. I can assure your Lordships that extensive pre-application consultation and engagement with those affected by the proposals will need to be undertaken by applicants. Furthermore, members of the public can participate in the examination process by registering their interest, thus ensuring that local views can be heard.

The main benefit to the developer of projects meeting the criteria in the Act is that they will face a less complex, consenting process with quicker decision-making. A number of consent requirements, such as planning permission, listed buildings consent and scheduled ancient monument consent, are replaced by a single consent, issued by the Secretary of State, following advice provided by the Planning Inspectorate.

It is the Government’s intention to designate a national policy statement for water resources infrastructure under the Planning Act. This policy statement will summarise government policy—

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Geddes) (Con)]

My Lords, it has just been drawn to my attention that a Division has been called in the Chamber. Since we have a few seconds to go until 6.25 pm, the Grand Committee therefore stands adjourned until 6.35 pm.

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[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, it is the Government’s intention to designate a national policy statement for water resources infrastructure under the Planning Act. This policy statement will summarise government policy on water resource infrastructure, including setting out the need for nationally significant infrastructure. It will make clear what the Government expect a planning inspector to take into account when examining an application. We plan to lay a draft of this in Parliament by the end of the year. I look forward to engaging with your Lordships on this in more detail next year.

The amendments in this order are part of how we make sure we have enough water now, and in the future. Population growth, climate change and making sure we leave enough water in the environment will become more challenging in the future. We expect proposals for nationally significant infrastructure to originate from statutory water resource management plans, as these are where options to reduce demand and increase supply have been assessed. We know that some new infrastructure will be needed to meet water demand in the future. Our assessment of the current draft water resource management plans is that around half a dozen proposed projects, needing to start in the next decade or so, are likely to qualify as nationally significant under the Act as amended by the proposed order. For all the reasons that I have outlined and because of the Government’s strong view that we need to plan for the future, I beg to move.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, we all want water but we also want safeguards. Much of my contribution is going to be about safeguards. When I saw this order—which was only this afternoon—I had to do some pretty speedy homework and make a few phone calls. I also looked up on the internet the definition of NSIPs, and they are described as,

“major infrastructure project developments in England and Wales that bypass normal local planning requirements”.

Whenever I see those sorts of words, I think immediately: what are the safeguards? There are no safeguards that I can see defined in the order before us.

I want to draw attention to a particular example of where things could go wrong when there are no safeguards. I will tell the story of what happened over the Thirlmere reservoir in the Lake District. I am presuming that United Utilities and other water companies are among those to which the Minister referred when he spoke about the consultation that took place. I am sure that they would have a primary interest in ensuring that this order goes through, because I would imagine that in certain circumstances they will certainly be the beneficiary of it and use it.

Thirlmere is in my former constituency in Cumbria, which I represented for some 21 years. For many of those years, it was a major problem because of the way the legislation had originally been framed in terms of protecting the interests of consumers and residents in the area. The primary use of Thirlmere, as it was described in a letter from one of the senior managers in the Environment Agency, is,

“as a water resource reservoir for United Utilities. In addition, United Utilities has voluntarily drawn down the reservoir to enable some flood storage during winter months. However, as the low reservoir levels during the 2018 dry weather period show, there needs to be a careful balance between Thirlmere’s primary use as a water supply and its use for flood storage”.

That is what I am on about—the balance. There is nothing in these regulations that even refers to the need for safeguards as part of the discussion around the balance between the availability of water and flood risk in local communities.

I want to now refer to some incidents that took place and the response of the local communities. In January 2005, November 2009 and December 2015, Keswick, a town where I have lived for most of my life, was flooded. On the last occasion, 515 properties were flooded during Storm Desmond. As the formidable Lynne Jones, secretary of the Keswick Flood Action Group, said in correspondence to United Utilities:

“I make no apology for continuing to contact you. I know that UU will never really manage the reservoir with a view to our safety without legislation to enforce them to do so”.


That is precisely why I am speaking on this order, because it is not in here. In the end, the solution is in your hands; you who are far away and who cannot understand the fear that so many in our community live with.

There are 2,630 residential properties in Keswick, and 515 properties flooded during Storm Desmond in 2015. Let me explain to the Committee what that means. Keswick is a town in two parts: there is the lower part and the higher part. In the main, the higher part does not flood, although certain parts of it do. But the lower part floods extensively. In the lower part of the town, there has been a dramatic drop in property prices. I do not live there, but the people who do worry constantly about the fact that they cannot sell their properties and have difficulty insuring them. Throughout the winter months, they are haunted by the prospect of being flooded. The river Greta, which runs through the town, has built-in flood defences, which broke down on one occasion. The truth is that the town is living in fear because of inadequate safeguards.

Today, legislation is going through that will make it easier for water companies to pursue the development of reservoirs without the safeguards that the people in Keswick demand for Thirlmere. It is a very clear idea. I imagine that they are the people driving this on because they know that they will be able to bypass much of the planning arrangements that currently exist.

I want to refer to what people think should happen in the future to resolve these problems. Within these regulations, there should be reference to measures to ensure that communities are safeguarded. Lynne Jones has been in contact with me today, and I will refer in this debate to what she said. She said it is obvious that the reservoir should be managed for flood alleviation alongside water supply. However, legislation is needed to make this a reality, and the present Floods Minister refuses to consider this possibility. So we are going to have more reservoirs, without safeguards, and the potential of future flooding. She went on to say—

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I wonder whether I might help the noble Lord. I can see the line of approach he is developing and would be the first to say that all Governments need to address flooding concerns.

Important to the context of this work is that it is all predicated on the Reservoirs Act 1975, which sets out extensively the safety requirements of large reservoirs and contains a number of provisions, which I am happy to outline.

This piece of work is from the Planning Act 2008. There is already legislation on the matters that the noble Lord is raising. I apologise for intervening but I just wanted to say that this is not in isolation; there is other legislation which deals with safety. The noble Lord may well question the 1975 Act but there is legislation, passed by Parliament, which deals with the safety of reservoirs. I hope that is helpful to not only the noble Lord—I am sure he knows about this legislation anyway—but other noble Lords.

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[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the Minister’s explanation and echo the thanks of the noble Baroness to him for the courtesy of arranging a briefing on this SI in advance of today’s consideration. We, too, broadly welcome the proposals, which we believe will lead to greater water resilience in the UK. As we know, despite its reputation for rain, England is at increasing risk of water shortages. Extreme weather from climate change, coupled with an increasing population, especially in the drier southern and eastern areas, has put the water system under increasing pressure. We know that that will only rise over the coming decades.

I agree with my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours that extreme weather is not just about drought; it is also about flooding. We have debated time and again in the Chamber the terrible consequences for local communities—not just in Keswick, but in other areas—which are faced with the same infrastructure breakdown which allows flooding to take place over and over again. The Government need to address that key challenge. I agree that this may not be the right vehicle to do that, but we should not lose sight of the important challenge of addressing the sort of communities which he spoke so passionately about.

Thames Water warned, just last month, that in a little over 25 years a projected population growth of more than 2 million people will leave a shortfall of 250 million litres per day between the amount of water available and that used. We have to address the issue of water shortage nationally. This has not been helped by an ageing infrastructure and a lack of investment from water companies in the past. This means that change is necessary to create a modern infrastructure which can adapt to new demands, which we can already predict will add pressure to the system.

The Minister will be aware that several stakeholders argued during the consultation that demand management techniques should be exhausted before any new infrastructure is developed and that water transfers should be a last resort. We agree that that while reservoirs and dams can play a key role in stabilising water availability, it is imperative that we reduce demand and waste. One area where progress is urgently needed relates to the industry’s inability to get on top of leaks. The noble Lord will know that in June Thames Water was ordered to pay £120 million back to customers, having been found to have breached its licence conditions by allowing millions of litres of water to spew out of pipes through leaks. So we need urgent action to reduce water leaks, with meaningful targets for action by water companies year on year. Will the Minister update us on the agreements that have been reached with water companies to make this a reality? Will he also explain what action is being taken to change consumer behaviour around domestic water consumption? Breaking through this barrier is a real challenge, not least because consumers have a simplistic view of the water cycle and the ease by which turning on a tap can deliver water without any concern to the source of that water supply.

Any government proposals must make sure that the ways we build infrastructure and supply water in the future are sustainable for the environment and for local communities. According to a report published by WWF, nearly one-quarter of all rivers in England are at risk because of the vast amounts of water being removed for use by farms, businesses and homes. Some 14% of rivers were classed as overabstracted, meaning that water removed is causing river levels to drop below those required to sustain wildlife, while a further 9% were described as overlicensed, meaning that the river would fall to a similarly low level if permits to take water were utilised fully. This means that if permits to abstract water from rivers were fully utilised, levels of water would be unable to sustain wildlife and the necessary biodiversity that goes with it. What safeguards are in place to ensure that the increase in nationally significant projects does not lead to more overlicensed and overabstracted rivers? Will the Minister ensure that the national policy statement on water resources prioritises sustainability, not profits?

One of the key challenges of these proposals is the issue of local engagement. The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, touched on this and my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours dwelt on it in some detail. In the proposals for large infrastructure projects there are indeed legitimate local concerns that need to be heard and addressed. I know that the Minister raised this in his introduction and set out the Government’s aspirations, but it would be helpful if he would clarify how he intends to use the powers the Government are taking to guarantee proper community consultation in the future, so that he can give more assurance to noble Lords in this regard.

The Minister will also know that the Chartered Institution of Water and Environmental Management has expressed concerns that the criterion for defining a nationally significant infrastructure project,

“does not consider any regional or supra-regional water resources issues”.

Will he ensure that the Environmental Agency and Ofwat recognise the importance of regional, multisector resource planning in delivering these changes, so that it is not just about local consultation involvement but also proper consultation at regional level?

Finally, while we welcome the introduction of desalination plants as a new category of NSIP, we share the view of many stakeholders that effluent reuse systems should also have been included. While these facilities are used only in times of projected or actual drought, it is likely that we will come to rely more on this type of water supply in the future, owing to the existential challenge of climate change and population increase. Can the Minister explain what more is being done to expand investment in this sector and encourage water recycling? Does he accept that not including effluent reuse as a new category of NSIP may deter investment in such plants?

In conclusion, we welcome the proposed amendments and support the Government’s stated twin-track approach to improving resilience by stabilising supply and reducing consumption. This will be achieved only as part of an ambitious, long-term plan for the environment, including new policies to manage our water resources, a plan to meet our climate change targets and a strategy to reduce domestic consumption—as well, of course, as dealing with the extreme water consequences we have been debating this evening. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I point out at the outset that although I am not as aware as the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, is about the flooding in his part of the world, as a Defra Minister, and beforehand, I absolutely understand and have seen the devastation and horror of flooding—indeed, the fatalities there have been—across the country. I am thinking particularly of the flooding experienced in one sense on the west side of the country, while on the eastern side there has so often been coastal flooding where the most terrible events have also happened.

I want to take away all that the noble Lord has said, and would be very happy to hear from any of the people who may have contacted him. I am not the Minister who has direct responsibility for flooding but in this House I take responsibility for all Defra matters, and I want to hear much more about the situation of residents there. I have friends in Cumbria who have suffered from the flooding, and I know that communities have been in a very difficult situation for many years. Perhaps I may spend some time outside of this discussion understanding more about the particular points that the noble Lord raised about Thirlmere and the issue of safeguards.

I know it was probably incorrect of me to intervene as I did, but I wanted to ensure that what we are trying to do here, through the Planning Act 2008, was on the record early on. I would of course want to hear in more detail whether there are issues with safety in reservoirs and the 1975 legislation, or issues arising therefrom, that we need to consider. This provision comes from the Planning Act 2008, and I suggest that it enables us to deal with the small number of what we believe to be nationally significant infrastructure projects for water. This is the route that that Act envisaged. We are seeking to add some detail to it and, as I say, include desalination plants.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I am sorry to intervene. I want to ask one question. A part of the town now lives in fear of flooding, as I said, and in a large part of the town there has been a major drop in the property values of people’s homes. I presume that there must be people now who are in difficulty over their mortgages. Because of the lack of legislation at the moment, with no way of controlling the operations of United Utilities, is it not possible for some national fund to be set up to help people who are in difficulty over the sale of their properties? I heard about a house last week that was on the market at nearly £600,000 and is being sold for £350,000. These are huge losses, which do not derive from the actions of the people that own them but directly from the absence of legislation that governs flooding. As I say, the danger in this order is that there will be more in the future.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. Clearly, I am not in a position to talk about resources, as he will understand very well. But obviously, in a different sense, this is why the Government brought forward Flood Re—there was a lot of consideration in the insurance world vis-à-vis it—to seek to address some of the difficulties that householders had. In fact, the noble Lord and I have had conversations about this and some of the distinct elements of where it has been successful. However, I understand generally that Flood Re has been a considerable success for householders with this problem.

Brexit: Food Security

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts

Tuesday 20th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what planning they have undertaken to ensure food security post-Brexit in the event of there not being any deal reached between the United Kingdom and the European Union.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, the UK has a high degree of food security built on access to diverse sources of supply as well as domestic production. Defra is preparing for exit alongside all relevant government departments, including through the cross-Whitehall Border Delivery Group, which is co-ordinating dialogue with ports, airports and their users. Defra has engaged closely with businesses and trade associations across the food and drinks sector at official and ministerial level and will continue to do so.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister understand that lack of confidence in the Government to deliver even a workable Brexit deal means that major supermarkets and food suppliers are already stockpiling and even now are running out of warehouse space? The Public Accounts Committee in the other place has warned the Government that their contingency plans that the Minister outlined could well lead to increased risk to food safety and of smuggling. Can the Government give any guarantees to food producers who operate a just-in-time business model—not unlike the Government, it has to be said—that they will be able to continue to produce and deliver high-quality, safe food?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, it is absolutely clear that we have been working on this matter of preparedness at the border for nearly two years. We have issued 106 specific technical notices to help businesses, citizens and consumers prepare. They are all available on GOV.UK. It is really important that there is confidence in our food supply—and there is. There always has been, because we have the supply chains. We are working with businesses and it is up to them: it is a matter of commercial decision as to what they do by way of their materials. But we are working extremely strongly with businesses so that there is a strong food supply.

[Earl Cathcart (Con)]

My Lords, as a farmer I find the idea of food shortages if there is no deal both scaremongering and proven nonsense. Does my noble friend agree that domestic production plays a crucial role in our food security and that the high standards and quality of our produce is recognised both abroad and at home? Surely we should encourage people to buy British.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I declare my interests as a farmer and my short reply to my noble friend is—yes to all three. It is very important to recognise that the UK’s current production-to-supply ratio is 60% for all food and 75% for indigenous-type foods. This is why we have a very strong domestic supply and other sources. We have excellent food in this country, which we are exporting to the degree of £22 billion last year—and, yes, we should buy British.

[Lord Cameron of Dillington (CB)]

Are all sections of government and all departments in Whitehall signed up to the principle that we will never import food into the UK that is produced by methods that are illegal for UK farmers?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I have confirmed that a number of times at the Dispatch Box and I will do so again. On the specific issue of hormone-treated beef, the UK has transposed EU Council directive 96/22/EC. On chlorine-washed chicken, we already have provisions through the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. We have a very strong record, in this country and abroad, for environmental protection of our food and high standards of animal welfare. That is how we are going to trade around the world and we are certainly not going to compromise that.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

Perhaps the Minister can provide some reassurance on behalf of many of us in this House who remember life before we joined the European Community—the Common Market, as it then was. In those years there was no need for people to stockpile food. Supplies of medicines reached our hospitals and our pharmacists during that period. People could freely travel to the countries of the Common Market without great difficulty. It was even possible for planes to take off from British airports and land without hindrance at European airports. If we reminded ourselves of these facts about the past, it might enable us to make more rational decisions about the future.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, this great country is going to have a very strong future. It will be outside the European Union, but we will want to have very strong co-operation with our friends in the EU 27. The noble Lord is absolutely right. In a global economy we are trading around the world—as, indeed, is the EU. The EU is trading with countries that are not members of the EU. We all want to do trade together. That is why I very much hope that a successful deal will be concluded—because it is in everyone’s interests. But the noble Lord is absolutely right: this country will prosper whatever the scenario.

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

My Lords, there is great concern that a careless Brexit will pose a threat to the UK’s short-term food security, when it is vital that a genuinely sustainable food strategy for the whole UK should be developed. It is important for high food standards to remain at the heart of any trade deals. Is the Minister able to assure the House that the Government will provide clarity on their proposed migration policy and consider the contribution that non-UK citizens of the EU make to the quantity and quality of the UK’s food supply and services?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, clearly, Defra and the Home Office will need to consider these matters because we need people to help us in the agricultural and horticultural sector. But I repeat to the noble Baroness that we have very strong domestic production. We also source food from around the world. As I have said from the Dispatch Box before, on the issue of disease or pests or whatever, we have a very sophisticated industry that has other sources of supply—but I am not anticipating that, because EU food producers want to bring their food here and we want to export our wonderful food to them.

Ivory Bill

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 13th November 2018 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

That the Bill do now pass.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, I express my gratitude to all noble Lords for their interest in the Bill and their contributions. Whatever else, we are all united in our desire to protect such a magnificent animal in the wild.

I bring it to your Lordships’ attention that I have placed in the Library of the House, with their permission, copies of letters received from my noble friends Lord De Mauley and Lord Carrington regarding Clause 7, “Pre-1947 items with low ivory content”, and my response to them. Specifically, these letters concern the definition of “integral” and the means of assessing the 10% de minimis threshold. In particular, the letters confirm that the ivory content of an item for the purpose of the de minimis exemption is to be determined as a percentage of the total volume of material in the item.

I am grateful for the positive engagement and support of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, and the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, on the Opposition Benches, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones. I also express my gratitude to the Constitution Committee, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, and the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. The Government responded positively to the recommendations made by these committees and I agree with the comment made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, on Report that this was,

“a very good model of how this House works”.—[Official Report, 24/10/18; col. 948.]

I am also grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, for raising insurance transactions and for the subsequent discussions that led to the resolution of this matter on Report. I also place on record my gratitude for the contributions that my noble friend Lord Hague made during the passage of the Bill, and for the experience he brought of what is really happening in the worldwide threat to the elephant.

I take this opportunity to thank each of the devolved Administrations for their productive engagement and the support they have shown for the Bill. Finally, I thank my noble friend Lady Vere and the hard-working Bill team, my private office and the clerks for their work and support.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, the Bill represents a significant step towards ending the illegal elephant-poaching crisis. It will enshrine in UK law the commitment made at the 2016 CITES convention to close down the domestic ivory markets that fuel illegal poaching. We believe that the exemptions permitted, carefully crafted in consultation with stakeholders, strike the balance between being robust and pragmatic. I welcome the Minister’s clarification that we can help by taking the value out of the market.

The Minister raised the question of items containing voids and the de minimis issue. While we agree very much with the advice that he has now given, there may be occasional cases where assessing the ivory content of an item is not straightforward. We believe that such items ought to be rare and can be picked up in the guidance that will follow.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville]

May I speak? Thank you, my Lords. I will be brief. The UK has shown that it can lead the way in protecting the elephant. We have adhered to CITES and have moved forward tremendously in banning the trade in ivory objects in our country. Prior to the Bill, a large percentage of new ivory was being laundered through our country, masquerading as being of pre-1945 and pre-1918 vintage. There is still some way to go before the Bill can be implemented but there is now a clear timetable for how that will progress. I look forward, once the Bill is enacted, to a consultation on the other animals with the misfortune to have expensive trophies as part of their anatomy: the narwhal, the hippo and the rhinoceros, as the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, said. It is important that in banning elephant ivory we have not substituted another animal for the poachers to target.

I thank the Minister for his briefings and his patience and the Bill team for their very helpful information that was provided at all stages of the Bill. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, for the leading part that she has played during the passage of the Ivory Bill. The plight of the elephant is of great importance to all those who sit in your Lordships’ House. Often our debates fall into party-political camps but that has not been the case with the Ivory Bill; the House has been united across all Benches to ensure the passage of this legislation. I am extremely proud of having played a small part in that process. I look forward to a similar meeting of minds on some of our future legislation, but I am slightly more pessimistic about that in the near future.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I have listened to all the remarks that have been made. It has been an honour for us all to have been a part of this legislation. I will reflect on all that has been said. This is an international effort. I beg to move that the Bill do now pass.

Bill passed and returned to the Commons with amendments.

Roundup

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts

Wednesday 31st October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the safety implications for consumers of the retail sale of weed-killers such as Roundup; and whether they will introduce legislation to address any risks.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, there is robust EU and UK law on the use of weedkillers. The Government will always base their assessments of safety on the best scientific evidence available. Clearly, users of Roundup and other weedkillers should always read the instructions and use the product responsibly, and in accordance with the instructions, as indeed they should for many other household products.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I thank the Minister for his reply. I am sure that it is general knowledge that the landmark verdict in a case in the United States was that Roundup and glyphosate herbicides can cause cancer, and Monsanto has acted with “malice and oppression” by selling it in full awareness of the risks. Given that here in the UK farmers have to keep such pesticides under lock and key in a steel cupboard, how can it be all right to sell it freely in the supermarkets on open shelves? Is that not a risk for both shoppers and workers?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the recent case was a civil court case with a non-expert jury. There was no new scientific evidence presented regarding safety as part of the court case, and so it does not raise doubts about the scientific assessments underpinning the EU approval decision. Of course, we have in this country, and through the EU as well, very strict rules about authorisations and approvals. There are many requirements for Roundup, and it is important that it is used responsibly, but it is safe.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, the European Chemicals Agency has ruled that Roundup and glyphosates are not carcinogens. Against that background, will my noble friend continue to ensure that the Government use independent scientific advice to enable the farmer to use crop protection to protect against pests that will otherwise damage crops?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My noble friend encapsulates what is so important on this issue: the Government, indeed, through the EU, act on the expert opinion of scientists. That is the only way in which we can base this. It is important for farmers and indeed for those of us seeking to deal with ground elder and other weeds. We want to move to greater precision-farming and innovation, and agri-tech will help with that.

[Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)]

There are many species in Britain that threaten our environment. The Minister has just mentioned ground elder, and Roundup can be used to tackle such things as Japanese knotweed. Can he update us on the Government’s latest position on the application of weedkillers to tackle that problem?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

The noble Lord has again highlighted why they should be properly used. I have the instructions for Roundup, which should be properly adhered to in order to ensure the safety of people using it. It is really important for coping and dealing with Japanese knotweed, which is one of the most invasive plants. That is why in many instances, when used properly, we need this material.

[The Countess of Mar (CB)]

My Lords, I remind the noble Lord that glyphosate was initially registered as a very powerful chelator, which means that it blocks out essential minerals and elements from plant systems. Secondly, it was registered as an antibiotic, so it kills off micro-organisms in the soil. Thirdly, it was registered as a weedkiller. All those factors have an effect on what we eat every day. Finland, which has a no-till policy using glyphosate, has found that over the last three years crop levels have fallen, and that there has been an increase in infertility in men and women. Will the noble Lord bear that in mind when recommending the ubiquitous use of Roundup?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

We all need to use pesticides responsibly and carefully—all farmers are conscious of this—and we want to move to a position where we use them less, but we do need to use them. I say again that the EU, the European Food Safety Authority, the European Chemicals Agency and our own, very well respected agencies, have all said that glyphosate is considered safe to use.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I lost a crop in my garden last year as the result of the use of Roundup in an adjacent field, and, more seriously, I lost a cousin in the United States, the late Owen Wigley, whose family believes that his death was caused largely by Roundup. Is it not appropriate that the Government should use the precautionary principle in dealing with this substance?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

Clearly, it is important that sprays and products are used in conditions that do not cause them to go on to other people’s property, and that they are used with precision. However, glyphosate is authorised because all the scientific evidence of all the experts on which we rely is that it is not in this case carcinogenic. Indeed, another agency, the WHO, does not agree with the agency that says that it is.

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

As has been said, glyphosate is an active ingredient found in the weedkiller Roundup and has been a source of controversy amid claims that it is connected to certain kinds of cancer. Oatmeal and other breakfast cereal crops are often sprayed with this chemical. What in-depth research are the Government doing to ensure public safety, both now and after 29 March?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

All this area is hugely important as a priority, both now and after we leave the European Union. Public safety will always be the prime consideration, and this would not be authorised if it was deemed to be unsafe.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, referred to the precautionary principle, which as we know has been fundamental to EU regulation. Can the Minister confirm that when we leave the EU, we will apply the same precaution to risks to human health? In the event of a no-deal outcome, will a statutory watchdog be in place on day one to uphold environmental standards so that we can be reassured?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, obviously, whatever happens, the HSE and the UK expert committee on pesticides will be advising the Government. We are working with the HSE and other agencies to develop a new regulatory body. However, in the meantime, we have expert committees on which we rely and in which we place our trust.

Ivory Bill

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 24th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, noble Lords will not be surprised by this, but we are very much opposed to this amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Hague, put the case much more strongly than I will, but I was disappointed by the position of the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, on this. The very fact that his amendment focuses on exports goes to the heart of what the Bill is about. I am sorry that he has sought to start this debate in such a negative way. I hoped that we would have learned from our debates in Committee and that we had made the case in Committee, as the noble Lord, Lord Hague, said, that we are trying to stop the illegal exports of illegal pieces. That is the heart of the problem.

The latest CITES statistics show that there has been a dramatic increase in the amount of both raw and worked ivory being exported from the EU: in 2014-15, the last two years for which data are available, the EU exported 1,258 tusks. That is what has happened according to the CITES information. Over and above that, as the noble Lord, Lord Hague, said, there is the undercurrent of all the illegal trade of which nobody has any record. That is at the heart of this, and I am very sorry that we have started this debate looking at exports, which is the real problem that we have. I know we will go on to talk about other issues, but I regret this and I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, in other contributions that he might make, will do more to persuade us that he really understands the basis of the Bill. He said that he welcomed the Bill, but I think he has more of a responsibility to demonstrate how. I therefore urge noble Lords to oppose the amendment.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend’s amendment would allow commercial exports of ivory to be exempt from the ban. Given the rationale of the Bill, this amendment would be contrary to its purpose. We have heard from all sides, and we are all united behind the need to tackle the devastating decline in elephant populations, which is being driven by the global demand for ivory. While key demand markets are primarily in the Far East, the UK has, by introducing the Ivory Bill, acknowledged that its own legal ivory market is one of the largest in the world. By closing this market we want to ensure that the UK no longer plays a role in driving the global demand for ivory, including in the Far East.

Currently, the UK ivory market is linked to the Far East. As I mentioned in Committee, a 2016 report by TRAFFIC, the wildlife trade monitoring network, shows that a shift has taken place over a number of years, with the UK legal market increasingly serving consumers in the Far East. UK Border Force officials have uncovered numerous antique ivory items being sent to Asian markets, often mislabelled as items other than ivory. Market surveys in the Far East have also shown that demand for ivory rarely distinguishes between legal and illegal ivory, with both found to be sold side by side. It cannot be denied that antique ivory from the UK is being exported to those markets, where it fuels the social acceptability of ivory and, in turn, perpetuates the demand.

I thank my noble friend Lord Hague for setting it out so clearly—indeed, the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, has said it much better than I possibly could—and I agree with every word he said. If we were to exclude exports from the UK’s ban, as proposed by this amendment, we would not only be allowing this link to continue but would also be condoning, internationally, the export of ivory items to demand markets. This would set back the actions already taken by other countries such as the United States and China by allowing new markets to grow in the Far East. It would also undermine the global movement to close markets and remove the value associated with ivory, which African elephant range states are calling upon us to do.

My noble friend Lord Hague referred to—as I will describe it—this global movement. The Illegal Wildlife Trade Conference was held earlier this month in London, where the UK Government launched the international Ivory Alliance, which will work to close domestic markets and reduce demand for ivory. It was a privilege to introduce a session at the conference—jointly chaired by my noble friend Lord Hague and Dr Zhou Zhihua of China, with a panel including the Assistant Deputy Secretary from the US Department of the Interior and the former New Zealand Prime Minister Helen Clark—which focused on the importance of closing domestic ivory markets.

The action the UK has taken by introducing this Bill is already helping to encourage other countries to take action. As my noble friend Lord Hague has said, both the Cambodian and Laotian Governments announced at the conference that they will be closing their domestic markets. This is an important step forward. Our work in the UK has also resulted in an Australian parliamentary committee recommending that Australia close its domestic market. The committee urged the Australian Government to follow the UK’s approach, which they described as an example of best practice.

Our actions are already having an impact and will continue to, if we make the right decisions. The current restrictions in place are not strong enough and there is an international movement, endorsed by a CITES resolution, to address the gap and in turn protect elephants. The UK must play its part, and it is for these reasons that the Government cannot support my noble friend’s amendment. As is customary at this stage, I therefore respectfully ask him to withdraw it.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

If this amendment is not passed, what would happen to objects that are confiscated at the border? I am thinking in particular of significant cultural objects that were destroyed in America, because all ivory is disallowed from entering the United States.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I say to the noble Earl, as my noble friend Lord Carrington mentioned, that there is no intention to destroy any objects. Indeed, there are further amendments on exemptions that we think strike the right balance regarding outstanding and the rarest items. We have a strong and proportionate package of exemptions, which will come up in the next group of amendments.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, the Minister’s response to that intervention from the noble Earl illustrates the lack of knowledge among those who are indulging in the gesture politics occupying us this afternoon. The fact of the matter is that, as the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, referred to, already the United States is destroying items that have ivory as an ingredient. We will come to that later in today’s debate, but take as an example an Art Deco figure with an ivory head and a silver body. The ivory head would be taken out. There is a particularly graphic example of a Victorian salt and pepper pair, dating from, I think, 1874. They were beefeaters, and the faces were ivory. They were destroyed. This is the stuff of madness.

My noble friend Lord Hague speaks with passion, and I hope I rival his passion in wanting to preserve elephants, but he does not seem to understand the difference between antique objects and artefacts and modern things. He talked about fakes, but there are fakes in every walk of life and in every form of antique—we know that. But we would not clamp down on the sale of pictures because occasionally a fake appears on the market. We have to be moderate and sensible in our approach.

I will reflect on what has been said and I may well bring something back on Third Reading. I shall certainly test the opinion of the House on a later amendment this afternoon, but—

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

With respect, on this matter and with this amendment, I have no option but to tell my noble friend that I will say exactly the same at Third Reading. He says he intends to bring it back at Third Reading, but it is really a matter that we should deal with today, on Report. That is the way to deal with it. We have considered it in ministerial meetings and it goes to the very heart of the Bill. To take “exporting” out rides a coach and horses through the Bill’s premise, and I respectfully tell my noble friend that, at Third Reading, I will say exactly the same. If he does wish to test the opinion of the House, it should be at Report.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, obviously I will reflect on what my noble friend has said. I wish to test the opinion of the House on a later amendment but, for the moment, I will withdraw this one.

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[Lord Grantchester (Lab)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Quin has spoken eloquently on the effect of the Bill on future generations of Northumbrian pipers. Like her, we cherish musical tradition and would not wish the music played by pipers and enjoyed to cease. I pay tribute to the department for organising a visit by a member of its team to assess the instrument and thank her for meeting the society. However, as has been reported back to the department, some of the pipes have problems under the Bill. It is my hope that the Northumbrian Pipers’ Society itself can take on a role in seeing that instruments are recycled to new pipers through bequests and other measures, and that new instruments avoid the provisions of the Bill. It would be difficult to create a new exemption for Northumbrian pipes. As the House will later see, we have tabled Amendment 78 to report on the effects of the Bill on musical instruments more generally. Evidence provided through the consultation, including from the Musicians’ Union, showed that the vast majority of commonly played and traded instruments, including violins, pianos and bagpipes, comprise less than 20% ivory.

Turning to Amendment 2 and others in this group, we do not support what they wish to achieve, which amounts to a reduction in the provisions and effectiveness of the Bill, which is a commitment of both parties to introduce a ban on the sale of ivory. The Bill includes limited exemptions to the ivory trade that are sufficiently narrow to ensure that they will not contribute to the poaching of elephants. The carefully crafted clauses represent the culmination of a productive collaboration between NGOs, law enforcement, museums, art dealers and musicians. It is Labour’s view that the Bill strikes the right balance. I call on all the proposers of amendments in this group to withdraw or not to move their amendments so that future generations can enjoy living in a world with elephants.

The Illegal Wildlife Trade Conference, held earlier this month in London, underlined the importance of the UK putting in place a near-total ban on UK ivory sales as soon as possible. This legislation builds on the resolution agreed at the 2016 Conference of the Parties to CITES to phase out domestic ivory markets and will give the UK greater credibility in continuing to press other key countries in south-east Asia with a history of ivory trade to commit to closing their markets and to implementing strong domestic ivory bans. China closed its ivory market in 2017. Ivory poaching is now the fourth-largest crime sector after arms, drugs and trafficking. I remind your Lordships’ House that 20,000 elephants are killed each year, or some 55 a day.

I turn to Amendment 24 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, which seeks to remove registration as a precondition of allowed sales of de minimis objects. The noble Lord raised concerns about proportionality and others have followed with remarks on both the registration fee and administration involved, which would necessitate photographing, measuring and examining the object for any distinguishing features before uploading the information to a database. I am sure the noble Lord would accept that photographing, measuring and examining the object for any distinguishing features would be part of any normal process of listing an item for sale at an auction house or on an online marketplace. It is our view that registration is necessary for enforcement. The proposed system places a small administrative responsibility and a small financial cost on the seller, who, in turn, will gain from the exemption to the ban on dealing in ivory. Crucially, by registering an item through the system, the applicant will be confirming that, to the best of their knowledge, all the information provided is correct and the item therefore meets the exemption. The APHA, the regulator and the police will have access to the registration system to enable them to carry out any enforcement and monitoring action necessary. The APHA will also carry out spot checks on items registered to check for accuracy and compliance. This is also a key and necessary part of the regulations.

Amendment 22 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, would remove the size criterion for portrait miniature exemptions. The noble Lord will recall from our previous consideration of this issue that the Government added the category of portrait miniatures to the list of exemptions in Committee in the other place. Emma Rutherford, a representative of Philip Mould & Co, an expert on portrait miniatures, gave evidence on how the exemption for portrait miniatures could be refined to add a size limit, and agreed that the suggestion of six inches by eight inches would be sensible. This is 320 square centimetres, which would allow between 90% and 95% to be exempt. The Government have moved considerably on many of these features and I therefore call on the House to reject these amendments.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, these amendments relate to the scope of the ban and, in particular, some of the exemptions to it. I emphasise how uncomfortable I am in having to address this to a number of my noble friends, but I do so with great sincerity. The department has undertaken extensive consultation with a broad range of stakeholders, including the music sector, the antiques sectors and all the sectors engaged, as well as NGOs interested in conservation, to shape the Bill and, in particular, to establish a narrow and carefully defined set of exemptions.

I was struck by what my noble friend Lord Hailsham said—he used the word “proportionate”. The architecture of this proportionate approach has been carefully designed to balance the need to close our domestic markets with consideration of the interests of those who currently own certain items of ivory and the obligation to protect our cultural heritage. I think that my noble friend Lord De Mauley was in his position at Defra when my party had a manifesto pledge, in 2015, for a total ban. We have considered with the consultation that there are proportionate ways of approaching what is an imperative: to do everything that we can to stop the incidental and direct pressure on the elephants on this planet. That is why I will cut to the chase and say that the Government cannot support the amendments in this group. But I would like this opportunity, as is only reasonable, to set out why in more detail.

Amendment 2, tabled by my noble friend Lord Cormack, serves to alter the definition of ivory in Clause 1 of the Bill. This amendment would mean that any item with less than 20% ivory or any musical instrument with less than 30% ivory would be excluded from the ban, meaning that it would remain legal to deal in such items. Indeed, they would be within the scope of the rest of the Bill. The amendment does not state whether this threshold refers to volume, weight or another measurement. There is no backstop date referred to. This amendment would mean that items of any age with less than 20% ivory or any musical instrument with less than 30% ivory would not be affected by the ban and would only be subject to existing CITES regulations. This amendment would greatly undermine the scope and purpose of the Bill.

My noble friend Lord Cormack’s Amendment 22 refers to the exemption for pre-1918 portrait miniatures. The amendment would remove the size qualification, excluding the frame, from the exemption. We had this discussion in Committee, and my noble friend the Duke of Wellington referred to his own personal and rather considerably sized portrait miniature, which he rightly said he had no intention of dealing or selling. As the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, said, this size qualification was developed from evidence provided during a House of Commons evidence session by a portrait miniatures expert. This evidence suggests that the size qualification, as we have heard, would include in the exemption 90% to 95% of pre-1918 portrait miniatures, which is the majority. Any item that falls outside this size qualification may also be exempt as an item of outstanding artistic, cultural or historical value and importance if it meets the criteria, which will be set out in regulations. The Bill makes clear that a frame would not be included in the calculation of the surface area of a portrait miniature. As I said, we will be developing detailed guidance on how to measure surface area, in consultation with relevant stakeholders.

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[Lord De Mauley]

I am very grateful to my noble friend. Can he give us an indication of what the level will be?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

No, my Lords, I am not able to give an exact sum.

[Lord Cormack]

An approximation.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

No, I am not going to give an approximation. I used the words “a small fee”, and it will be considered in what would be the normal manner in which fees are considered. I have put on record that it will be a small fee. It is not intended to be burdensome or bureaucratic. I emphasise—given that we wish to reduce demand for ivory, as it is no longer a desired object around the world because of the continuing slaughter of elephants—that we need to do everything we can. That is why we want to protect sellers and buyers in those exempt areas which we have agreed in the Bill and to give them an assurance, given the fact that around the world we are seeing the closure of domestic markets of ivory, that this protects future sellers and buyers of the items within our exemption package.

I believe, and the Government believe, that the online self-registration system will have a range of benefits. It will provide assurance to those dealing in ivory through an exemption that they are complying with the law. It will also be an essential tool in identifying breaches of the ban. Enforcement officers will be able to use material submitted to the online system to monitor compliance and to support investigation into potential offences.

Of course, every individual has the right to own and enjoy items made of or with ivory and to bequeath and inherit those items without the need for registration. Indeed, many of these items will have sentimental value. It is only in the case of selling, hiring or using an item for commercial gain that registration will be required, which we believe is a proportionate response. We must ensure that robust measures are in place to enforce the Bill. Therefore, it is critical that all exempt items are subject to registration to support the rationale of the Bill but also, as I said, to support the interests of the sellers and buyers of exempt ivory.

Amendment 25, tabled by my noble friend Lord Carrington, seeks to clarify, with reference to the de minimis exemption, what is to be considered integral to the piece. Ivory must be,

“integral to the item’s design or function and contemporaneous with the item”.

I preface my remarks by saying that I am very pleased to see my noble friend returned to his place following his time in hospital. We have given this issue very careful consideration, and I hope that my forthcoming explanation will provide him with reassurance as to the intent of this exemption.

My noble friend correctly identifies that the ivory content of an item meeting this exemption must be incorporated into the piece at the time of its manufacture and to constitute an irremovable aspect of the item’s form and function. The ivory cannot, of course, have been added at a later date or be superfluous to the design and/or function of the item. As drafted, the Bill takes account of these concerns. Clause 7 provides that the ivory must be integral to the item, and may not be removed without difficulty or without damaging the item. Most obviously, that would apply in the case of inlaid furniture. But it would also apply where the ivory element were part of a detachable part of the item that is itself integral to the piece. If I may explain further, I would point to a teapot or serving dish with an ivory handle to the lid. The lid is clearly integral and contemporaneous to the teapot or serving dish, and the ivory handle is integral to the lid. Therefore, providing that the total volume of ivory in the item is less than 10%, it would meet the de minimis criteria.

There are other types of items, such as barometers and maybe small sewing boxes, for which the ivory content may be an entirely separate element, such as a knob on a barometer or the lid of a sewing box. These elements were clearly designed to be removable yet are integral to their design and purpose. For instance, without the knob—my noble friend Lord De Mauley raised this in Committee and my noble friend Lord Carrington raised it today—one may not set the mercury level on a barometer, and without the lid, assuming that it is less than 10% of the volume of the whole piece, the item could not function as a box. We will set out in guidance not only what I have described as examples but more fully the points that my noble friends have raised.

Amendment 28, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, would add a new clause after Clause 8 to exempt any,

“musical instrument that has been certified by the Northumbrian Pipers’ Society, or a similar approved organisation, as being a set of, or part of a set of, Northumbrian pipes made before the passing of this Act, and covered by a valid … (CITES) certificate”.

In Committee, I gave an undertaking that my officials would meet the representatives of the Northumbrian Pipers’ Society, and a very informative meeting was held.

As the noble Baroness knows, I am sympathetic to the Northumbrian piping community and the traditions. However, her amendment would constitute a widening of this exemption. Interestingly, my official identified that most pipes contain less than 20% ivory by volume, which was the initial concern in Committee. It then became more apparent during the detailed consideration —for which I am most grateful to the Northumbrian Pipers’ Society—that some Northumbrian pipes were made after 1975 with ivory repurposed from other items, and therefore will not be covered by the musical instruments exemption. The noble Baroness’s amendment would, however, allow Northumbrian pipes made with ivory right up until this year to be exempt from the sales ban. We believe that that would create an unjustifiably broad exemption for one instrument over all others. I should emphasise that those instruments not covered by the exemption will still be able to be played and enjoyed, and that the ban will not affect the ability to pass on or donate those instruments for future generations.

I apologise to noble Lords for taking some time, but I want to emphasise that the Government have embarked on considerable consultation in bringing forward the exemptions package. We remain of the view that they are reasonable. Phrases such as “gesture politics” do not chime with me. I attended the Illegal Wildlife Trade Conference, as I said on an earlier group of amendments. The word that came from that group, which represented over 80 countries, was “leadership”. It was about the leadership that this country is taking. That point was endorsed by five heads of African states. I hope that my noble friend Lord Carrington will forgive me, but my impression from meeting people at that conference was that they were not cynical.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

They were not cynical. They were men and women from countries that are the most dramatically affected by the slaughter of elephants. These are the vulnerable villages and communities of Africa that are losing one of the most important economic engines for their prosperity. If any of those people had heard some of the comments this afternoon about gesture politics and cynicism, they might have despaired of this country. That is not the purpose of this legislation. Its purpose is to ensure that this country does everything possible—everything—to play our part in saving one of the planet’s most important and iconic animals. I have to say—and I will close with this—that in the end, whatever points my noble friends have made this afternoon, the interests and importance of these animals must always come before those of privately owned objects.

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Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

7: Clause 2, page 2, line 18, leave out “guidance issued” and insert “regulations made”
Member’s explanatory statement
Clause 2(3)(c) currently allows the Secretary of State to use guidance to specify matters that must be taken into account when considering whether an ivory item is of outstandingly high artistic, cultural or historical value. This amendment requires these matters to be specified in regulations instead.

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[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

The amendments in this group arise from the recommendations made by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee in its report on the Bill. I thank the committee for its report, which has been extremely helpful in developing further how key parts of the Bill are to be implemented. The committee made a number of recommendations suggesting that negative resolution regulations, instead of guidance, should be used to set out certain matters.

First, Clause 2(3)(c), which allows for “other matters” that may be taken into account when deciding whether a pre-1918 item is of outstanding artistic, cultural or historical value, will be amended to be set out in regulations. “Other matters”, in this context, are in addition to consideration of the rarity of an item and the extent to which it is an important example of its type. Such matters might include an item’s religious significance, scientific importance or whether it has previously been on public display.

The Government agree with the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee that in this case, guidance would not be an appropriate method of detailing the other matters that prescribed institutions—museums with expertise in ivory items—should take into account when providing advice on whether items are of outstanding artistic value and importance. As the committee notes, setting out regulatory requirements in guidance can mean that a person can have an element of choice about whether to follow them. This is not the Government’s intention and we therefore accept the committee’s recommendation.

Amendments 7 and 11 also replace powers to set out in guidance additional information that those applying for an exemption certificate under Clause 2 and those registering items as exempt under Clause 10 must include in their applications. This is in addition to that set out in the Bill under Clause 3(1) and Clause 10(1). Work on the implementation of the Bill has revealed that it already lists all the information we will need to issue exemption certificates and handle registration applications. We therefore accept the committee’s recommendations with respect to Clauses 3 and 10 by requiring additional information requirements to be set out in regulations rather than guidance, should a future Government need to do this. While important details will be set out in regulations, the Government will still produce guidance that will help applicants navigate their way around the application processes for both the exemption certificate and registration regimes.

Amendments 14 and 38 remove Clause 4(8) and Clause 11(5) from the Bill. These provisions allow guidance to be used to set out how applications for exemption certificates and registrations must be made. Guidance may, for example, require applications to be made electronically or online. The Government have decided to allow maximum flexibility with regard to how applications may be made and will therefore be removing these powers from the Bill because they will no longer be necessary.

Applicants for exemption certificates and those registering items as exempt will be able to apply online or download forms to be completed in hard copy for postal submission. They will also be able to telephone or email requests for copies of forms to be sent to them by post. This is to reflect the diversity of persons who may wish to submit applications, which may range from private individuals without internet access to large auction businesses.

[Lord Cormack]

Will they be able to apply by post? Do they have to download it or get it by email? My noble friend said they can send things in by post. Many of these people will be very elderly and will not necessarily be familiar with modern devices.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I will make sure that I get a precise note. The whole purpose of us saying that people can apply online and offline is precisely to cover the diversity of private individuals, as I mentioned. I will just check for my noble friend whether a form can be sent or whether it has to be downloaded.

The answer, apparently, is that there will be a range of opportunities for people to receive forms—online or not. I am told that a hard copy application can be requested by telephone. I think that covers, in one way or another, most people in this country.

The committee also recommended that Clause 5 should include more details about the appeals regime, rather than leaving it to secondary legislation. Amendments 17 to 21 deliver the committee’s recommendation. First, the amendments set out in the Bill that the First-tier Tribunal will hear any appeals against a decision by the Secretary of State not to issue an exemption certificate or to revoke an existing certificate. As many of your Lordships will know, the First-tier Tribunal has wide experience of hearing appeals concerning regulatory matters and, indeed, is the body to hear appeals against decisions to serve civil sanctions in Schedule 1 to the Bill. The amendments also set out in the Bill the grounds on which an appeal may be made and the powers of the tribunal on hearing an appeal. The only matters that will be left to secondary legislation will be any further grounds that the Secretary of State may wish to add and the cost of an application for an appeal to the tribunal. I acknowledge once again the recommendations of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, and I beg to move.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, I support these amendments. We are very pleased that the Government have listened to the Delegated Powers Committee and have addressed its concerns about too much detail being contained in guidance. We will return to this issue when we debate our Amendment 40, which seeks to establish regulations about how those dealing in ivory can verify the exempted status of the piece being bought or sold.

We also welcome government Amendments 17, 18 and 21, which considerably tighten up the basis on which appeals on exempted certificates can be made. We raised this issue in Committee and are very pleased that the Government listened to those arguments and have produced specific grounds for appeal that cannot be used to undermine the clarity of the decision-making process. We therefore support these amendments.

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[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I think it is customary that I thank the noble Baroness very much for her support for this group of amendments. It is an indication of the importance of the work of your Lordships’ House and the committees.

Amendment 7 agreed.

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Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

9: Clause 2, page 2, line 21, leave out “Secretary of State” and insert “appropriate national authority”
Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanation of subsections (1A) and (1B) inserted in clause 37 by the Minister’s amendment at page 22, line 24.

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Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

11: Clause 3, page 2, line 39, leave out “guidance issued” and insert “regulations made”
Member’s explanatory statement
Clause 3(1)(g) currently allows the Secretary of State to use guidance to specify information that a person applying for an exemption certificate must provide. This amendment requires the information to be specified in regulations instead.

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Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

14: Clause 4, page 4, line 21, leave out subsection (8)
Member’s explanatory statement
Clause 4(8) currently allows the Secretary of State to issue guidance setting out the form or manner in which anything required by clause 3 or 4 may or must be done. This amendment removes this power.

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Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

17: Clause 5, page 4, line 34, after “appeal” insert “to the First-tier Tribunal”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that an appeal against the refusal or revocation of an exemption certificate is to be made to the First-tier Tribunal.

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Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

29: Clause 9, page 6, line 1, leave out paragraph (a) and insert—
“(a) in the case of a museum in England, the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man, it is shown as being accredited in a list published by or on behalf of Arts Council England;(aa) in the case of a museum in Wales, it is shown as being accredited in a list published by or on behalf of the Welsh Government;(ab) in the case of a museum in Scotland, it is shown as being accredited in a list published by or on behalf of the Scottish Ministers;(ac) in the case of a museum in Northern Ireland, it is shown as being accredited in a list published by or on behalf of the Northern Ireland Museums Council;”Member’s explanatory statement
This main effect of this amendment, which is about how museums are to be identified as “qualifying museums” for the purposes of clause 9, is to replace the reference to Museums Galleries Scotland with a reference to the Scottish Administration. It is also intended to clarify the drafting.

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Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

33: Clause 10, page 6, line 37, leave out “guidance issued” and insert “regulations made”
Member’s explanatory statement
Clause 10(1)(f) currently allows the Secretary of State to use guidance to specify information that the owner of an item must provide when applying for registration of the item. This amendment requires the information to be specified in regulations instead.

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There is something that I want to avoid—and to make clear in this new clause—when an estate has a valuable collection of ivories, or indeed any ivories at all. Let us say for the sake of argument that there is a collection of ivories of museum quality—netsukes worth £100,000, for example; a substantial amount—and the estate is well above the inheritance tax threshold. When looking at probate, HMRC will come along and say, “You are passing this extremely valuable collection on to your children under your will”. If this collection had been registered, it would have a value. It might be a value that a museum would pay; it might be a value, if it were less than 10% ivory, such that you could sell it on the open market, but it would have a value. But without it being registered, it has no value. This new clause tries to tease out this issue and hopefully get it on the record, and to make it clear to HMRC that an ivory item that is not registered has no value and therefore no value for probate, so the wonderful inspectors at HMRC should keep their sticky fingers off it.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Cormack’s amendment aims to enable a person who inherits a registered ivory item from a relative also to inherit the title to that registration. Self-registrations for items meeting the de minimis, musical instruments or portrait miniatures exemptions, or for items to be sold to an accredited museum, are in the name of the owner. If a new owner subsequently wishes to deal in that item, or wants to ensure that it is registered as exempt for any other reason, he or she must register it online in their name. A person inheriting a registered ivory item would assume the responsibilities of ownership of that piece, including the decision whether to register it in their name, in line with their specific circumstances. If a person inheriting or taking possession of an ivory item is unsure whether it is registered, this would not affect their rights or responsibilities as the new owner. Because the registration is associated with the individual, it therefore falls to the person inheriting the piece, as the new owner, to register the item if they wish to undertake dealing in it. I repeat: if they wish to undertake dealing in it.

The Government are working closely with interested parties to develop an online self-registration system for ivory items that will be quick and simple to use and meet the needs of all users. I also reassure noble Lords that an offline system will also be made available to cover the points that have been raised in other amendments. Of course—I emphasise this to my noble friend—for items under the rarest and most important items of their type, the exemption certificate remains with the item when it is passed to a subsequent owner. That is the distinction.

I turn to my noble friend Lord Carrington’s amendment concerning ivory items passing through probate. This is an important issue and I can reassure your Lordships that the Bill will not impact on, or cause additional burden to, those involved in such situations. The ivory ban does not affect one’s right to bequeath or inherit any ivory item, regardless of whether it meets an exemption, is registered or is certified. An ivory item may therefore be bequeathed without requiring registration by either the person inheriting the item or the executors of the estate.

The matter of inheritance tax has been clarified in your Lordships House before and I am happy to do so again for the record. Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs confirms that ivory items will be considered to have nil value on the open market for inheritance tax purposes unless that item has been registered or certified as exempt. Items registered or certified as exempt will be assessed against their market value in the normal way and may therefore be subject to inheritance tax. With this explanation, I hope that my noble friend can withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Cormack]

Like the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, I too know when I am beat. I do not think it would serve any purpose to press this amendment. I am mildly comforted by what my noble friend said; maybe we can have conversations on this as the Bill comes into force. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

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Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

38: Clause 11, page 7, line 32, leave out subsection (5)
Member’s explanatory statement
Clause 11(5) currently allows the Secretary of State to issue guidance setting out the form or manner in which anything required by clause 10 or 11 may or must be done. This amendment removes this power.

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[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, Amendment 40 concerns verification regulations. As we debated in Committee, it is imperative that the exemption processes introduced in this Bill are robust and proportionate. In Committee, we introduced a probing amendment that would allow the Secretary of State to create a verification system to enable buyers to ensure that they were complying with the law. We felt that this was particularly important, given that the definition of “dealing” in Clause 1 specifically includes buying as well as selling ivory. Even the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, with whom we on these Benches have found little common ground with regard to this Bill, concurred that it was a most sensible suggestion.

In response, the noble Baroness, Lady Vere, agreed that a potential buyer must be able to verify that it is legal to purchase the item before finalising the sale. She outlined how a buyer wishing to check the legality of buying or hiring an item would be able to confirm that it had been registered or certified as exempt and look it up on the online system via the item’s reference number. This would enable them to compare the photos and description on the system with the object they intended to purchase. This was a welcome commitment from the Government. I was disappointed, however, by the noble Baroness’s insistence that we do not need regulations to underpin such a system.

Noble Lords will be aware that the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee report raised concerns about the scope of regulation-making powers contained in the Bill, concluding that the delegation of powers was inappropriate in many areas. We agreed with this view and feel strongly that it would be inappropriate for the purpose of establishing a verification system too. The verification process described by the noble Baroness, Lady Vere, must be subject to parliamentary scrutiny and should be set out in regulations. We feel that this is very important, given the legal implications for breaking the prohibition on dealing, as well as issues involving privacy and the protection of personal data. Indeed, it was for this reason that the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner, advised that the Government would be unable to publish photos or descriptions of specific items exempted. We need to be much clearer about the verification processes that would underpin the Bill and the protections that would be afforded to the buyers, particularly when they are making online purchases, when fake sales particulars are all too often a hazard.

Having reflected on the Minister’s earlier response, we also believe that the negative procedure offers an appropriate level of parliamentary scrutiny for the verification of exempt items. Therefore, we hope that noble Lords will support this amendment, which would insert regulations, but to be approved only through the negative procedure. I beg to move.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, this proposed new clause would provide the Secretary of State with a new delegated power to make regulations and publish guidance to enable a potential buyer of an ivory item to check its exemption status prior to purchase. I reassure the noble Baroness that the Government will ensure that compliance, by both sellers and purchasers of ivory items, is fully facilitated. The Secretary of State will issue non-statutory guidance, which will set out the detail of each exemption and the requirements for self-registration or certification of exempted items. The guidance will also contain clear advice, for both buyers and sellers, on compliance, including the process by which a potential buyer will be able to check a registration or certification before purchasing an item. I also make the point that verification is in the Bill. We will provide administrative guidance to assist both the buyer and the seller.

I note that the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness would create an additional delegated power for the Secretary of State, by allowing him to specify how many items should be verified. Furthermore, to lay regulations to specify this would be a duplication of the relevant provisions already in the Bill.

Before I set out for your Lordships precisely how the registration system will work, which is important, and thus the measures in place to enable verification, I also note that the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee of this House has considered the Bill in detail and made a number of recommendations to reduce the number of delegated powers, which, as we heard on earlier amendments, the Government have addressed.

Ultimately, it will always be in the seller’s interest to ensure that the exemption certificate or registration document is available at the point of sale. It would be appropriate for an antique dealer or auction house to display the certificate or registration details alongside the item or show it to customers at the point of sale. For online sales, we would similarly anticipate that a seller would show proof that the item has been registered or an exemption certificate issued.

We are currently working on the design and build of a new online system to enable owners of exempt items to register them prior to sale or hire. A potential buyer wishing to check the registration of an item will be able to look up that item on the online system, using the unique registration number provided on the seller’s registration document. The buyer will be able to view the information concerning that item held on the database to satisfy themselves that it indeed relates to the item in question. This will allow buyers the comfort that the seller has complied with the process and to verify the registration document.

For items with an exemption certificate under Clause 2 of the Bill—that is, the rarest and most important items of their type—we would in practice expect the seller to make the exemption certificate available to the potential buyer. Similarly, the potential buyer will also be able to consult the online database using the unique identification number on that exemption certificate.

That is why we do not need a power in the Bill to provide the means for buyers to verify that they can legally buy a certified or registered ivory item: as I have explained, it is our intention that this will be achieved through the functionality of the online registration system. This provides a clear means for the buyer to verify the legitimacy of their intended purchase. Furthermore, the Government will publish non-statutory guidance, which will set out exactly how sellers should provide buyers with the assurance that they are entitled to sell an item and that the transaction will therefore be lawful.

Before the Bill is commenced, we will run an awareness-raising campaign to ensure that relevant stakeholders and members of the public are fully aware of the new legislation and associated guidance. As such, we believe it would be unnecessary to include additional powers in the Bill to enable a potential buyer of an ivory item to check on the exemption status of an ivory item. As I have explained, this is precisely why perfecting the online registration system is so important and why work is under way on that.

I believe that the Government have covered the points that the noble Baroness seeks to address, given the explanation and a bit more detail. As the online system is developed, I am happy to ensure, for any noble Lords interested in these matters, a continuum of assurance that this work is well in hand. On that basis, I say to the noble Baroness that these points are covered. I sincerely hope she feels able to withdraw her amendment, because the Government have covered this point.

Ivory Bill

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts

Report stage (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Wednesday 24th October 2018 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

43: Clause 15, page 9, line 38, after “powers” insert “on police or customs officers”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the Minister’s amendment leaving out clause 17.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, I should say at the outset that the Government and I are sincerely grateful to the Constitution Committee for the clear recommendations outlined in its report, which we have considered thoroughly and addressed through the Government’s amendments to the Bill. I also express my gratitude to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, and my noble friend Lord Cormack for raising this matter in Committee. At that stage, I promised that I would consider it fully and return to it on Report. Since then I have met the noble and learned Lord with officials on a number of occasions with a view to bringing forward the amendments tabled today. He asked me to say how much he regrets that he had to leave to fulfil a long-standing commitment outside the Parliamentary Estate. I am also permitted to say that he was prepared to put his name to the Government’s amendments to Clauses 17 to 19, and his name would have been on the Marshalled List had it not been for some timing on the day on which he sought to do so. Through those discussions, the Government have tabled a series of amendments that both address the concerns previously raised by the noble and learned Lord and my noble friend, and ensure that the ivory ban continues to be underpinned by robust and proportionate enforcement.

I must first clarify that, when I refer to accredited civilian officers, I am referring to officers of the regulator, which will be the Office for Product Safety and Standards. OPSS is part of the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy. In Committee, I also acknowledged the Constitution Committee’s recommendation that the Government could more clearly define the enforcement role of accredited civilian officers. We have taken on board these recommendations by removing Clause 17 from the Bill, and proposing two new clauses, which will be inserted after Clause 22. Together, these ensure that the powers conferred on accredited civilian officers are set out separately from those conferred on police and customs officers. This ensures that the role of accredited civilian officers as regulators of compliance is now much clearer in the Bill.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, previously raised concerns about the extent of the powers conferred on accredited civilian officers to enter and search a premises. The Government have tabled a number of amendments that significantly restrict the powers of accredited civilian officers and I would like to explain these restrictions further. These amendments mean that accredited civilian officers no longer have a specific power to enter premises for the purpose of raising awareness of the provisions of the Bill. This amendment further clarifies OPSS’s core responsibility of assessing compliance with the sales ban.

The first of the proposed new clauses, “Accredited civilian officers: powers of entry”, clearly outlines when an accredited officer may enter a premises. “Premises” is defined in the Bill as any place, including,

“(a) a vehicle, vessel or aircraft;


(b) a tent or moveable structure”.

Subject to giving reasonable notice, accredited civilian officers may enter a premises if they reasonably believe it might be used in connection with the dealing of ivory, such as the back office of an antiques shop—that is, an area that is not publicly accessible—for only one of two reasons. The first is for the purpose of assessing compliance; the second is if there are reasonable grounds to suspect there is evidence relevant to an offence on that premises.

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[Lord Grantchester (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise briefly in appreciation of these amendments, which are designed to address concerns about civilian use of policing powers. I, too, thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, for his interventions in Committee. I am grateful to the Minister for his willingness to carefully consider these issues and bring forward these amendments tonight. I also place on record our gratitude to your Lordships’ Constitution Committee for its scrutiny of the Bill and the recommendations that prompted the Government to rethink its approach to civilian enforcement bodies. These amendments deal with the concerns over policing functions, including the power of entry, search and seizure being exercised by civilian officials, and bring a more reassuring approach to their enforcement.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Cormack, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, and the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, for their support for these government amendments. I agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, that the function of this House is to consider these matters very carefully. We in government were very seized of the points that were made. I absolutely assure your Lordships that we have no intention of overstretching what I think is a better definition of what was the accredited civilian officer responsibilities. We have got there, and I am most grateful. I place on record again not only the Constitution Committee’s work on this but that of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, who I am sorry cannot be here tonight, because his contribution to getting us over the line and working together was another very strong example of how we get better legislation.

Amendment 43 agreed.

Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

44: Clause 15, page 9, line 39, leave out “sections 17 and” and insert “section”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the Minister’s amendment leaving out clause 17.

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Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

45: Clause 16, page 10, line 22, after “powers” insert “on police or customs officers”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the Minister’s amendment leaving out clause 17.

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Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

47: Clause 17, leave out Clause 17
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment leaves out clause 17, under which accredited civilian officers have power to enter and search premises. Instead, the new clauses inserted by the Minister’s amendments after clause 22 give accredited civilian officers a more limited power of entry, and a power to examine documents and other items, but not a power to conduct a search.

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Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

49: Clause 18, page 11, line 21, leave out “or an accredited civilian officer”
Member’s explanatory statement
Clause 18(2)(a) currently allows an accredited civilian officer to apply for a search warrant in England and Wales or Northern Ireland. The effect of this amendment is that this will no longer be possible.

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Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

56: Clause 19, page 12, line 19, leave out “or accredited civilian officer”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the Minister’s amendment of clause 24 at page 11, line 17.

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Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

60: Clause 20, page 13, line 2, leave out “an” and insert “a police or customs”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the Minister’s amendment leaving out clause 17.

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Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

64: Clause 21, page 13, line 22, leave out “an” and insert “a police or customs”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the Minister’s amendment leaving out clause 17.

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Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

66: Clause 22, page 14, line 4, leave out “An” and insert “A police or customs”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the Minister’s amendment leaving out clause 17.

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Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

68: After Clause 22, insert the following new Clause—
“Accredited civilian officers: powers of entry
(1) An accredited civilian officer may on giving reasonable notice—(a) enter premises that the accredited civilian officer reasonably thinks may be used in connection with dealing in ivory (including any item that is made of ivory or has ivory in it) for the purpose of assessing compliance with the provisions of this Act, or(b) enter premises on which the officer has reasonable grounds to suspect that there is relevant evidence.(2) In this Act “accredited civilian officer” means an officer of the Secretary of State who is authorised by the Secretary of State for the purposes of this Act.(3) A notice under this section must—(a) be in writing,(b) be given to the occupier of the premises,(c) set out the purpose of the proposed entry, and(d) explain the effect of section 27 (offences of obstruction).(4) The requirement in subsection (3)(b) may be complied with by delivering or leaving the notice at the premises or sending it there by post.(5) This section—(a) does not authorise the entry into premises used wholly or mainly as a dwelling;(b) authorises entry only at a reasonable time.”Member’s explanatory statement
The new clause inserted by this amendment confers powers of entry on accredited civilian officers. These powers are more limited than those currently given to accredited civilian officers under clause 17, as the new clause does not confer a power of entry for the purpose of promoting awareness and understanding of the provisions of the Bill once enacted.

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Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

70: Clause 23, page 14, line 24, leave out “section 22” and insert “sections 22 and (Other powers of accredited civilian officers)”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the second of the new clauses inserted by the Minister’s amendments after clause 22.

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Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

71: Clause 24, page 15, line 5, after “22” insert “or (Other powers of accredited civilian officers)”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the second of the new clauses inserted by the Minister’s amendments after clause 22.

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Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

72: Clause 25, page 15, line 25, after “22” insert “or (Other powers of accredited civilian officers)”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the second of the new clauses inserted by the Minister’s amendments after clause 22.

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Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

73: Clause 26, page 16, line 7, leave out “17” and insert “(Accredited civilian officers: powers of entry)”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the Minister’s amendment leaving out clause 17 and the first of the new clauses inserted by the Minister’s amendments after clause 22.

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Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

74: Clause 27, page 16, line 39, leave out “or accredited civilian officer”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the Minister’s amendment of clause 19 at page 12, line 22.

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Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

75: Clause 28, page 17, line 6, after “22” insert “or (Other powers of accredited civilian officers)”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the second of the new clauses inserted by the Minister’s amendments after clause 22.

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Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

80: Clause 35, page 21, line 4, leave out “Secretary of State” and insert “appropriate national authority”
Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanation of subsections (1A) and (1B) inserted in clause 37 by the Minister’s amendment at page 22, line 24.

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Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

83: Clause 36, page 21, line 19, leave out “17(7)” and insert “(Accredited civilian officers: powers of entry)(2)”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the Minister’s amendment leaving out clause 17 and the first of the new clauses inserted by the Minister’s amendments after clause 22.

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Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

87: Clause 37, page 22, line 24, at end insert—
“(1A) In this Act “the appropriate national authority” means—(a) the Secretary of State, for regulations that do not apply in relation to Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland;(b) the Welsh Ministers, for regulations that apply only in relation to Wales; (c) the Scottish Ministers, for regulations that apply only in relation to Scotland; (d) the Northern Ireland department, for regulations that apply only in relation to Northern Ireland.(1B) But in the case of regulations that apply in relation to England and any other part of the United Kingdom, or in relation to any other part of the United Kingdom and not England, the appropriate authority is the Secretary of State if each necessary consent is given.The “necessary consent” is—(a) the consent of the Welsh Ministers if the regulations apply in relation to Wales;(b) the consent of the Scottish Ministers if the regulations apply in relation to Scotland;(c) the consent of the Northern Ireland department if the regulations apply in relation to Northern Ireland.(1C) The Secretary of State must consult the Welsh Ministers, the Scottish Ministers and the Northern Ireland department before making regulations prescribing a fee under section 3(1)(h), 4(7)(b), 5(4) or 10(1)(g).”Member’s explanatory statement
The inserted subsections (1A) and (1B), read with the amendments substituting references to “the appropriate national authority”, require most regulations under the Bill applying outside England to be made either by the relevant devolved authorities or with their consent. Under the inserted subsection (1C) the Secretary of State must consult those authorities before setting fees by regulations.

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Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

92: Schedule 1, page 29, line 6, leave out “Secretary of State” and insert “appropriate national authority”
Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanation of subsections (1A) and (1B) inserted in clause 37 by the Minister’s amendment at page 22, line 24.

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Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

99: Schedule 2, page 34, line 9, leave out paragraph (d)
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the Minister’s amendment of clause 18 at page 11, line 17.

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Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

102: Schedule 2, page 36, line 7, leave out “or accredited civilian officer”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the Minister’s amendment of clause 18 at page 11, line 17.

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[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I am moving Amendment 104, which deals with the Government’s obligations in the international CITES resolution. We debated this issue in Committee and it remains a concern to a number of the wildlife and elephant charities. This amendment would insert a preamble linking the Bill to the resolution adopted unanimously by Governments at the 2016 conference of parties to the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora—CITES. This calls on all Governments to close domestic ivory markets, which contribute to the poaching of and illegal trade in ivory.

As we explained in Committee, the government amendments introduced on Report in another place, while welcome, had the accidental consequence of removing the explicit link between the Bill and CITES. There is now nothing in the Bill to make it clear that this legislation was drafted partly in response to the resolution adopted unanimously by Governments at the 2016 conference of parties to CITES.

We raised this concern in Committee, where the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner, reaffirmed the importance and relevance of CITES. However, he argued that an explicit link in the preamble was unnecessary, given that the aforementioned government amendment made it possible to go further than CITES and broaden the scope of the Bill to all ivory species.

While we welcome this provision, we nevertheless believe that such a preamble would strengthen the Act against possible judicial and European Court of Human Rights challenges by confirming that the legislation enables the UK to comply with international obligations to control domestic ivory markets under a UN-backed treaty. Moreover, as the Minister himself noted:

“No other provision in the Bill could be limited by a reference to CITES”.—[Official Report, 12/9/18; col. 2353.]


We therefore do not accept that the reference to CITES is as limiting as the Minister would have us believe. Indeed, there are precedents for this, notably in the original legislation to implement CITES in the UK under the Endangered Species (Import and Export) Act 1976. This Act also covered thousands of non-CITES species.

We believe that this amendment, contrary to what the Minister has argued, would have the effect of strengthening rather than weakening the Bill. I beg to move this amendment and hope that noble Lords will support it.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the noble Baroness’s amendment would insert a preamble to the Bill to reference the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora, or CITES, and the important resolution agreed at the CITES COP 17 regarding closing elephant ivory markets.

In Committee, I assured the noble Baroness that the removal of a link to CITES in the Bill was not an unintended consequence. It was as a direct result of the amendment made in the other place to enable the Secretary of State to broaden the scope of the Bill in the future to all ivory-bearing species, rather than only those listed under CITES. We are confident that there is no need for a reference to CITES in the Bill, and we do not believe that it would provide additional protection to the Bill, for example against legal challenge.

In Committee, I reassured your Lordships that, as a very active party to CITES, the UK will continue to be bound by and committed to its obligations under this important convention. The UK ivory ban is consistent with our obligations under both CITES and the EU wildlife trade regulations, and therefore neither need to be cited in the Bill. It is also the case that the ban goes much further than both CITES and the EU wildlife trade regulations in restricting the commercial dealing in ivory.

For example, amending Clause 35 to remove reference to CITES species and include reference to all ivory-bearing species means that all ivory-bearing species—not only CITES species—can be added to the scope of the Bill in the future if the outcome of an information-gathering exercise, such as a consultation, supports this. Therefore, the UK has gone further than outlined in the CITES resolution on elephant ivory. While I appreciate the noble Baroness’s intention to provide protection to the Bill, again I must say that we do not believe the preamble is required.

I want to make one other practical point following advice I have received. The noble Baroness referred to a preamble from much earlier legislation. It is now the case that primary legislation uses the long title to specify a Bill’s objectives, instead of a preamble.

I well understand all the connections with CITES and the EU trade regulations, but this Bill goes further. Therefore, we cannot support the noble Baroness’s amendment, for the reasons I have outlined, and I ask her to withdraw it.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his response. We accept that the Bill has gone further than the original CITES treaty. Our objective in putting the CITES reference in the preamble was to firm up the Government’s justification, if you like, for having the Bill in the first place. We have been debating this for several days now and we are still trying to justify why we have to do it, and this is part of the continuing justification.

Given that there is still some unhappiness out there—if not indeed in your Lordships’ Chamber—our intention with what has been proposed in the Ivory Bill was to give it some legal extra bottom, if you like, in terms of why we are doing it by referring to a UN-backed treaty. Nevertheless, I accept that the Minister is saying that this was not an unintended consequence but was in fact deliberate. Time will tell whether it would have helped to have our reference in the preamble, because only in time will we know whether there are legal challenges to this.

However, given the lateness of the hour, we do not intend to move to a vote. I therefore beg leave to withdraw the amendment.