Farriers (Registration) Bill

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Thursday 6th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend Lord Caithness for introducing the Bill, speaking so powerfully as to its merits and giving us some of the background to this matter. I also acknowledge my honourable friend Byron Davies for his piloting of the Bill through the other place.

As noble Lords will know, farriery has been and is central to the well-being of the horse. Indeed, I was brought up with the expression, “No foot, no horse”, which succinctly captures for me how important the skill of the farrier is. Farriery deserves sensible and proportionate regulation, and the Bill proposes precisely that.

The proposals have been worked on since 2013. A project team was set up with officials from Defra, the Scottish and Welsh Governments and a working party of members of the Farriers Registration Council and staff. A consultation was jointly held by Defra with the Scottish and Welsh Governments in late 2013, which addressed all the major elements of the proposals. The legislation would extend to England, Wales and Scotland.

The purpose of the Bill is to protect and maintain the public interest and to protect the welfare of equines, by modernising the governance, structure and operation of the Farriers Registration Council and its statutory committees. This will enable the FRC to overcome practical difficulties caused by out-of-date legislation, reduce the risk of legal challenge and modernise the FRC’s structure and operations in line with the Government’s principles of better regulation and the practices of other regulators. Its most crucial aspect is the need to introduce full separation of powers between the council and its investigating and disciplinary committees. I was most grateful for what the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, said about the importance of such arrangements.

The investigating committee is set up to carry out the preliminary investigation of cases or complaints against farriers that could amount to professional misconduct. If the investigating committee deems this to be the case, it is sent to the disciplinary committee. The disciplinary committee determines whether the charges made are proven, and can where appropriate apply sanctions—in the most serious cases, up to and including the removal of a person from the register of farriers, meaning that the person would no longer legally be able to practise farriery. The function of these committees is vital to the regulation of the farriery profession, and the Bill makes changes to modernise the law and ensure that it is fit and proper for regulation in the 21st century. In particular, as my noble friend Lord Caithness said, it imposes a full separation of powers.

As the law currently stands, the investigating committee and the disciplinary committee are made up of members of the council. This does not fulfil the principle of separation of powers and the removal of possible bias. Currently, the same body which sets the standards for the profession is responsible for investigation of and adjudication on possible breaches of those standards. That is very important, as the decisions of the investigating committee or the disciplinary committee may be subject to legal challenge by those whose cases are being determined on the basis that they did not have the right to a fair trial. Equally, members of the public may view the lack of impartiality as farriers looking after their own.

Consequently, it is vital that changes are made to bring the law up to date, as the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, rightly inferred. The Bill proposes that members of the investigating committee and disciplinary committee must be persons who are not members of the council; nor may they be an “officer or servant” of the council—that is, paid staff of the FRC. The provision is retained that a person on the disciplinary committee cannot sit on a case if they served time on the investigation committee in respect of the same case. This ensures that full separation of powers is met and that the investigation and disciplinary committees meet the requirements of a modern regulator.

I will address some of the issues that have been raised, including the number of farriers who sit on the council. The council is made up of 16 members. Currently six of those members are practising farriers, and the Worshipful Company of Farriers appoints three more members, who may or may not be practising farriers. The remainder of the council is made up of two veterinary surgeons and five lay representatives appointed by various interested bodies, as set out in the schedule to the Bill.

Following consultation with the farriery profession regarding representation of practising farriers on the council, the Government have responded to the concerns of the farriers, and the Bill proposes that at least one of the members of the FRC who is appointed by the worshipful company must be a currently practising farrier. This brings the constitution of the council to a minimum of seven currently practising farriers out of 16 members. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Addington, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, I emphasise that, as set out in Part 1 of the schedule,

“‘practising farrier’ means a registered person who carries out farriery”;

that is, is actively and currently engaged in the profession. The Government have also decided, following a consultation process, that the chair of the council is to be elected from among the members of the FRC, rather than appointed directly by the Worshipful Company of Farriers, as is the case currently. The noble Lord, Lord Addington, also raised this.

I stress that it is vital that as a regulatory body the FRC should reflect a balance of interests rather than bloc voting, and must also avoid the risk of regulatory capture by the profession it is regulating. It is also government policy that the split between farriers and non-farriers should be approximate rather than specified exactly in statute, and managed by the FRC itself according to the needs and skills requirements of the council at any particular time. I believe that the proposals allow for this flexibility, and for fair representation of the farriery profession on the FRC without risking regulatory capture. I also believe that it would not be in the interests of farriers if there were not a fair representation of third parties on the council to assist them in the regulatory environment of their profession.

Also in response to the noble Lord, Lord Addington, I say that the Government consider that should the FRC require future administrative amendments to its structure or that of its committees in order to continue to function properly and effectively as a modern regulator, such changes should be able to be made more swiftly than currently; that is, without the need for primary legislation. The use of secondary legislation to secure any further changes would clearly need to be on the basis of maintaining the public interest. This would be in keeping with other regulatory environments. For instance, a similar power exists in paragraph 24(1) of Schedule 1 to the Architects Act 1997, under which the Secretary of State may make an order to amend the provisions of that Act. The proposed power in the Bill includes provision for the Secretary of State to consult fully and, additionally, obtain the consent of Scottish and Welsh Ministers, given that farriery is a devolved matter.

The Government have consulted fully on the proposals, and the nature of the responses suggests widespread support for the Bill. Indeed, it is very much the prevailing view that there is an urgent need for the modernisation and reform that the Bill proposes, and it is vital for the profession that the Bill is passed.

I endorse the importance of the profession of farriery in terms of equine welfare and the need to ensure that the highest professional standards are maintained. The Bill provides a modern regulatory environment for a profession on which all horse owners rely. Again, I thank my noble friend Lord Caithness for introducing it and I, too, wish it a safe passage.

Recycling: Plastic Bottles

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts

Tuesday 28th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have any plans to introduce a deposit return scheme to reduce plastic bottle waste and increase recycling.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble)]

My Lords, we are determined to reduce litter on our streets, roads and beaches as part of the Government’s litter strategy, which we will launch shortly. The strategy will focus on education and awareness, better enforcement and improving cleaning and litter infrastructure. We recognise that there is more to do and will continue to work with business, WRAP, local authorities and campaign groups to increase rates of recycling across the board.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for that reply, but why is the department not prepared to show more leadership on this issue? After all, we know the scale of the problem. In the UK, we are using 35 million plastic bottles a day, 16 million of which end up being dumped on our streets, in our rivers, in the sea and in landfill. We know the scale of the problem, and we also know that there are solutions. Other European countries have already introduced bottle deposit schemes with great success. We know that, when we introduced the 5p plastic bag levy, it cut the number of single-use plastic bags considerably. Such measures can work. Is this not just a question of leadership? Why does the department not take a stronger line on this issue?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I certainly intend to take a very strong line and am looking forward to the launch of the litter strategy. The reason that these matters are so important is that they affect everyone in this country, whether it is litter or the importance of recycling resources. That is why the Chancellor said in the Budget that by 2020 targets for overall packaging recycling would increase to 75.4% and for recovery to 82%. This Government are very ambitious in their desire to improve our environment.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the scheme that operates in Denmark works very successfully? It is not government led; my understanding is that it is led by industry and that the work is done by the supermarkets, which pay to put the facilities in. Is this not the type of leadership that we should look to—that is, leadership from the industry, where it saves money in the process as well?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I want to express my thanks to business across the piece for being involved in the litter strategy. One thing to come across strongly is the importance for its reputation that business sees in assisting us with recycling and with avoiding litter. I want to endorse what my noble friend has said: business is key to the success of this.

[Baroness Parminter (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned the welcome but ambitious packaging recycling targets set in the recent Budget. Given that household waste recycling targets are going backwards, how do the Government expect to meet them?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is right that there was a slight drop, and that is why we absolutely need to do more. That is why I think the work of WRAP will be very important. But let me give some examples of where recycling is working tremendously well: South Oxfordshire District Council has achieved 66.6% household waste recycling; East Riding has achieved 66.1%; and Rochford District Council has achieved 66%. We want to raise the bar where local authorities are doing very well. That is what we want across the country.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, I hope the Minister will not think I am being discourteous, but his first Answer could have come straight out of “Yes Minister”. His subsequent answers were similar to those the Government gave when we talked about putting a tax or some penalty on the excessive use of plastic bags. We are getting nowhere in this. Surely we must do something—it is an environmental scandal. Could we not have some action instead of these platitudes from civil servants?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I have never taken the noble Lord to be anything other than courteous, and I do not take what he said in any untoward sense. On what he said about the plastic bag charge, there are 6 billion fewer plastic bags in circulation and the 5p charge has raised £29 million for good causes. These are good examples. I am sure that when the litter strategy is launched, as I hope it will be soon, the noble Lord will agree that we are trying to be—and will be—ambitious.

[Baroness Jenkin of Kennington (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a member of the WRAP board. My noble friend will be aware of WRAP’s consistency framework, which should help drive up recycling rates of not just plastic but other commonly collected waste streams. Although the framework was launched only in September, can my noble friend update the House on how it is going with local authorities?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, my noble friend is right. WRAP is currently working on seven local authority partnerships across 49 local authorities. This is to review the impact of greater consistency for household recycling, and I am sure that savings efficiencies and increased recycling will be had from that. It is early days, but I think the local authorities I mentioned show success. We want to raise the bar so that local authorities can see there is business sense in working together to improve recycling.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, could the Minister give us a list of the worst-performing councils?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I had better put that in the Library. Of course I wanted only the positive news, but I am afraid that, absolutely, there are local authorities that we want to encourage and need to do better. It is also in their business interests to ensure that they are recycling well and are litter-free places to work in and do business. The whole purpose of the consistency framework is to raise the level of those authorities that are not doing as well as they should.

[Baroness O'Cathain (Con)]

My Lords, is there consistency in the new litter strategy? Certain council areas encourage you to put the bottles in a certain box and others do not. I have lived in the same house for nearly 30 years and we have had six different types of instructions about litter. If there was consistency throughout the country, I am sure it would benefit everybody.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, what my noble friend said is precisely part of the work of this consistency framework, to make it easier for people to recycle and to make better understood what can be recycled. I very much hope that, as we proceed, ever more can be recycled from products.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

Does my noble friend have any plans to set forth from his office with a plastic bag in his hand and a camera crew in tow to pick up litter in and around Westminster, and set a fine example to the nation?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, if my noble friend had been with me in Ipswich for the national spring clean, he would have been with the honourable Member for Ipswich and the Labour leader of the borough council. We picked up an enormous amount of litter from around Ipswich. I should say—my officials will not like this—that we visited a fast-food store not too far away with a bag of litter and presented it to the very agreeable manager, who realised that more needed to be done.

Brexit: Environment and Climate Change

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts

Thursday 23rd March 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and the sub-committee for holding this inquiry, and for the opportunity for this thought-provoking debate today. Although this has predominantly been an environment and climate change debate, I should declare my farming interests as set out in the register. There have been a number of questions that I would like to reflect upon and, given the hour, write a more detailed reply to. Any questions that I am not in a position to attend to, I shall of course respond to in writing to your Lordships.

The committee highlights the scale and complexity of repatriating environmental policy as we exit the EU. This is not something that the Government underestimate—and the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, elaborated on the range of issues at large. As the committee’s report indicates, it is of vital importance that policy stability is provided as we leave the EU and that no legislative gaps or uncertainties are created. To provide this stability, as noble Lords know, the Government have set out our plans for a repeal Bill that will convert current EU law into domestic law. We will ensure that the environment is properly protected in law and that—I emphasise this—the whole body of existing EU environmental law continues to be given effect in the law of our country, either as it stands or in a manner that ensures that it works as a UK regime.

The department is continuing its work on the operability assessment of EU legislation following exit. This is a matter of process—and I understand the issue, which has arisen before, about one-third and two-thirds. I emphasise that this work is to ensure that the whole body of EU environmental law continues to be given effect in the law of the UK. As I say, it is about ensuring the manner in which it works as a UK regime.

This is also in conjunction with our manifesto pledge to leave the natural environment of this country in a better state than we found it. We want to design an effective approach to driving environmental improvement, tailored to the needs of our country. We will continue to explore the scope for new approaches to regulation which deliver better environmental outcomes, in the context of our commitment to developing a 25-year plan for the environment.

The noble Lord, Lord Teverson—and perhaps the majority of your Lordships—found this more a challenge than an opportunity, but I do think that there are opportunities that we should grasp. We should be positive about our joint determination to improve the environment of this country. That is a great opportunity for us all to work on.

The committee considered the role played by EU institutions in ensuring effective enforcement of environmental protection and standards—I listened very carefully to what the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, said—but the UK has always had a strong legal framework for environmental protection which predates our membership of the EU and the oversight provided by its institutions. I was going to refer to the Clean Air Act 1956 as a first example, but my noble friend Lord Caithness took us as far back as the 19th century, when we gave a lead.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, in particular, that we were the first country in the world to introduce legally binding emission reduction targets through the Climate Change Act 2008. Our commitment to the environment can be seen through our action in extending the blue belt: 23 new areas were designated as marine conservation zones only last year. The blue belt now covers more than 20% of English waters, and our record for waters around our overseas territories is also impressive.

In considering the future enforcement mechanism for environmental law, we should recognise the fundamental roles of Parliament, the UK courts and, indeed, the electorate. Parliament is the UK’s supreme law-making body. As we have seen, particularly in this Chamber, it holds Governments to account by questioning and challenging the laws they seek to make and amend. Parliament in turn is accountable to the electorate. Our system of judicial review and its body of public law enables any interested party to challenge the decisions and actions of the Government through the UK courts.

I very much regret the lack of confidence of the noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone, in what I believe are our exceptional UK institutions. The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, referred to the Thames Water case and the fine of £20 million. I listened very carefully to the commentary of the Environment Agency spokesperson. It shows exactly that such environmental issues are taken with extreme seriousness and rigour in our domestic courts.

Countries that are not EU members are well capable of driving environmental improvements in their countries. Many countries around the world with strong environmental records would think it extraordinary if we were to say to them, “By the way, you need a supranational body and court to ensure that you behave yourself”. They would feel extremely insulted. I will give way, but time is short.

[Baroness Featherstone]

My view was that I prefer the supranational authority to our Government here; I was not referring to other countries. Sadly, my confidence is lacking in this Government.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I am sorry that the noble Baroness does not have confidence in our institutions, our Parliament and our courts, because that is in effect what she is saying. She is saying that other countries around the world are well able to look after their own environment. In fact, in many cases, as I have described, we are already leading and are recognised as a leader of the world.

The committee is also anxious—rightly—for the Government to make clear what a free trade agreement with the EU will entail, arguing that this will have implications for future environmental policy. We will negotiate for an ambitious free trade agreement that allows the freest possible trade in goods and services with the EU. Trade and environmental considerations are closely related.

We want to ensure economic growth. Development and environmental protection go hand in hand. More trade does not have to come at the expense of the environment, and a healthy environment is in everyone’s interests. We will explore all options in the design of future bilateral trade and investment agreements, including environmental provisions within them.

In respect of the committee’s specific recommendations to review and evaluate the common agricultural policy and the common fisheries policy, I can assure your Lordships that we are assessing all the opportunities for agriculture and fisheries outside the EU. A number of noble Lords raised this, including my noble friend Lady Byford, who particularly raised the importance of a successful agricultural sector, and my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leeds. It is absolutely clear that a successful agricultural sector in this country is compatible and has traditionally, in so many parts of our country, been compatible with a good environment.

The noble Lord, Lord Judd, has always been not only an outstanding champion of Cumbria but also of the national parks, for which it is my great privilege to be responsible at the moment. Farming, landscape, environment, and the agricultural system of the Lake District are absolutely hand in hand and entwined. It has been created by generations of farmers, and it is that agricultural system that has enabled the very designation that we granted to that wonderful part of our countryside.

There is much on which the Government will be working. I would say to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leeds that it is my privilege to sit on the ministerial taskforce on broadband and we are absolutely clear about the need for increasing the rate of superfast broadband in rural areas. We have deliberately trialled the free childcare of 30 hours in rural areas, specifically because we think it is important that everyone in this country has those advantages. We are absolutely clear that, as I say, a great and improved environment and a strong agricultural sector are compatible with each other.

The committee points out a shared interest in maintaining cross-border trade with the EU. The Government agree with that. It highlights the need to co-operate with the EU on environmental pollution—of course, due to its transboundary nature. It is our neighbour and our friend and we should do this.

The committee also expressed some concern that withdrawal from the EU may impact on achieving climate change targets. I can assure noble Lords that we will continue to work closely with EU member states and international partners to tackle environmental issues which demand multilateral co-ordinated action. We will continue to co-operate with the EU on those policy areas where it is important for us to do so, including those issues which have effects across borders.

In relation to achieving carbon targets, I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, that the Government remain committed to tackling climate change and to low-carbon, secure and affordable energy and clean growth. While we cannot know at this stage what our precise future participation in EU climate measures may be post-exit, the EU will remain an important partner and we are considering how best to continue to work together.

The committee also urged the Government to engage fully in negotiating and influencing EU environmental proposals for the full term of its membership. It expressed concern about the UK’s influence post-exit at both EU and international level. It also stressed the importance of ensuring that the UK adheres to its international commitments. As long as we remain a member of the EU we will continue to play a full part in its activities and to represent the interests of the British people. My ministerial colleagues and officials continue to play an active role in the EU institutions.

I want to emphasise, particularly because it has been emphasised by three noble Lords—the noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone, the noble Lord, Lord Rees of Ludlow, and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Chesterton—that, after our exit, the UK will continue to honour its international commitments. We are party to multilateral environmental and climate change agreements and are bound by their obligations.

We are signatories, for instance, to: the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change, the Kyoto Protocol and the Paris agreement, which set binding emissions targets; the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species; the Montreal protocol, with its ban on most ozone-depleting substances and requirements to reduce hydrofluorocarbons—I was particularly grateful to my noble friend Lord Caithness for reminding your Lordships of the London conference, and the advances and all that followed on from that conference; the Convention on Biological Diversity; the Berne convention; the OSPAR Convention on the Protection of the Marine Environment of the North-East Atlantic; and the Basel, Rotterdam and Stockholm conventions, with their restrictions on the movement of hazardous waste and commitments relating to chemicals.

More than just honouring our international commitments, the UK will remain an active country at a global level. The UK has always played a significant role at the international level, whether this be in combating acid rain, or the role that we played last year in extending the Montreal protocol. We have led Europe on issues of environmental protection, let us remember. The Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 provided protection in UK law for vulnerable species more than a decade before the EU introduced the habitats directive. The committee—I particularly draw the attention of the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, to this—acknowledged, I believe rightly, the UK’s position as a global leader on climate change. The UK’s acknowledged skills and expertise have been a major factor in developing our influence in international climate and environmental policies. These skills and expertise will stand us in good stead for continuing to influence environmental policies. We will not step back from the international leadership that we have given on climate change.

My noble friend Lord Deben, the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, and the noble Baroness, Lady Brown of Cambridge, are all Members of your Lordships’ House who have been keen leaders in ensuring that, through all our efforts, we are better with our mitigation and our adaptation. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, who has recently handed over to his very worthy successor, the noble Baroness, Lady Brown of Cambridge, the chair of the Adaptation Sub-Committee.

The noble Lord, Lord Krebs, mentioned the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change, and we will continue to remain a very strong partner in that. We are now considering how best to take forward that continued engagement. The UK remains committed to international efforts to tackle climate change, and working with the EU will remain as important as ever. We will also continue to strengthen our relationship with other partner countries and work through multilateral groupings such as the G7, G20 and the Commonwealth.

The noble Lord, Lord Rees of Ludlow, referred to the Copernicus project; I think that this country has had a proud history of leading and supporting cutting-edge research, and the noble Lord knows more about that than almost anyone. As we exit the EU, Her Majesty’s Government welcome agreement to continue to collaborate with our European partners on major science research and technology, so this is very much on the radar as we move into the negotiations.

A number of your Lordships, including the noble Lords, Lord Grantchester and Lord Teverson, and my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering, asked about resources, particularly for my department. The committee identified the resource pressures associated with maintaining environmental legislation. The Government are absolutely aware of the implications of EU exit for, in particular, my own department’s work programmes. I can assure your Lordships that Defra’s work programmes and recruitment plans are kept continually under review to ensure that we are staffed to deal with the tasks at hand. We have set up an EU exit programme to help co-ordinate, plan and assist several key work streams and are identifying and filling vacancies on a rolling basis—it has been my privilege to work with many of the officials; their commitment has been 110%, they are working extremely hard and effectively, and I congratulate and thank them.

The committee also raised concerns about the potential risk of divergent approaches to environmental regulation across the United Kingdom. I assure the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, and all your Lordships that it is absolutely clear that Defra must work closely with the devolved Administrations, as it is doing. We will work in partnership with the devolved Administrations as we form our negotiating strategy for exiting the EU. It will be important to ensure that no new barriers to living and doing business within our union are created. That means maintaining the necessary common standards and frameworks for our own domestic market, empowering the UK as an open, trading nation to strike the best trade deals around the world and protecting the common resources of our islands.

A number of questions were raised. Time is pressing but I wish to respond to my noble friend Lady McIntosh of Pickering, who mentioned the EIB. The Government are in the process of assessing the contribution that the EIB makes. However, we are clear that the future relations between the UK and the EIB will be a matter for the Article 50 negotiations. Again, this is very much on the radar. The actual form of a dispute resolution in future relationships with the EU will also be a matter for the negotiations as they proceed.

A number of other points were raised and I will need to reflect on a considerable number of them and get back to your Lordships. I look forward to the debate on agriculture when your Lordships’ committee brings that forward. However, we have made sure that the current levels of funding for farmers are assured until 2020. Existing environmental stewardship and countryside stewardship agreements are fully funded for their duration. Clearly, we will have a major task in bringing forward our proposals for ensuring that our farmers have a vibrant future in an enhanced environment.

I hope that this has not been an unnecessarily pessimistic debate and wish to emphasise some of the significant gains that this country has achieved in improving its environment. The water environment is in its healthiest state for 25 years, with otter, salmon, sea trout and other wildlife returned to many rivers for the first time since the Industrial Revolution. We have had successful reintroductions of species such as the large blue butterfly, the red kite and the short-haired bumble-bee. We have seen many declining species such as cirl bunting, stone curlew, chough and bittern start to recover, although clearly there is very much more to do. We have an opportunity to develop an environmental policy that is bespoke to our country. We must grasp that opportunity, whatever our opinion of what happened last June. We can unleash the full potential of this country and develop innovative and efficient policies that will enable us to continue working globally on environmental protection.

I again commend the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and his committee on producing this report. It will continue to be of great value as we proceed in securing our objective to enhance the natural environment of our country and leave it in a better state than the one in which we found it. Working together—I emphasise “together”—let us ensure that there is a better environment for all. We should address with clear purpose the adaptation and mitigation of climate change—causes on which we can all unite.

[Baroness Sheehan]

I wish to comment on the remarks about enforcement. This is a very important area. The Minister mentioned the Clean Air Act 1956. I remind the House that that was enacted on the back of the great smog—the catastrophic pollution event in London. Going back to the 19th century, in 1858, London had the great stink, when Parliament had to be evacuated as the sewage that had been dumped in the Thames stank so much. That event led to the London sewerage system being built. My point is that we must be mindful that we have to interfere in a timely manner and we cannot, judging by the events here, wait far too long before it is necessary to act.

Water Supply Licence and Sewerage Licence (Modification of Standard Conditions) Order 2017

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts

Wednesday 15th March 2017 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

That the draft Orders and Regulations laid before the House on 3 February be approved.

Considered in Grand Committee on 9 March.

Motions agreed.

Water Supply Licence and Sewerage Licence (Modification of Standard Conditions) Order 2017

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts

Thursday 9th March 2017 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Water Supply Licence and Sewerage Licence (Modification of Standard Conditions) Order 2017.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, these regulations will enable the implementation of important reforms arising from the Water Act 2014 to extend competition in the retail market for water services. The three statutory instruments form part of a larger package of measures that will deliver the regulatory framework required to deliver choice in water services for non-household customers. Last year we considered affirmative regulations required to allow incumbent water companies to exit the non-household market. Last week the Government laid three negative procedure statutory instruments that include a number of protections for customers.

This new market in water and wastewater services, which opens on 1 April this year, will be the largest of its kind in the world and will allow all businesses, charities and public sector customers in England to choose a new water supply and wastewater supplier. We know that non-household customers are keen to have this choice, and the Government’s decision to expand retail competition was made in response to clear demand from business customers. Our reforms will mean that they are free to negotiate for the package that best suits their needs. They will continue to receive the same water through the same pipes but will be able to benefit from more efficient customer service, water efficiency advice and, I hope, a better deal on price.

The water codes appeals regulations will allow water companies that are materially affected by an Ofwat decision to take forward proposals to amend statutory codes designated under the regulations to apply to the Competition and Markets Authority for that decision to be reconsidered. These companies may also launch an appeal if Ofwat decides not to take forward such amendments following a consultation.

Codes form an important part of the regulatory framework because they contain the terms and conditions that must be included in agreements between incumbent water companies and new entrant companies operating within the retail market. They also include the processes that must be followed for customer switching and settlement between incumbents and new entrants. The code appeal regulations incentivise Ofwat to propose amendments that benefit the retail market and provide a transparent and predictable fast-track appeal mechanism for water companies to challenge Ofwat’s decisions.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, first, I am very pleased to associate myself with the comments of both the noble Lord, Lord Deben, and the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter. They have raised a very important issue, which I know we have debated on other occasions. I would be very happy to continue to add to any pressure we can bring to get the Government to take this issue seriously. The noble Lord set out the case extremely well as to why it was such a huge urban and rural challenge in terms of planning, flood prevention, and so on. Both noble Lords made the case extremely well.

I guess it now falls to me to make some comments about the actual regulations before us, which I fear will not be as interesting. I am grateful to the Minister for setting out the purpose of the three regulations. As he made clear, they are all consequent on the Water Act 2014, which received very detailed scrutiny in your Lordships’ House. The opening up of the new non-household retail market in April 2017, and the ongoing challenges of delivering greater competition in retail water and sewerage systems, will inevitably need modification and refinement. In this context, we accept that these new regulations are both technical and necessary.

However, I have a couple of questions for the Minister. First, the water supply licence and sewerage licence orders are mainly concerned with the percentage of licensees that must agree Ofwat’s decision to amend licence conditions, as the Minister spelled out. We agree that a 20% level of objection is a reasonable requirement to trigger a referral to the CMA. However, the consultation on that regulation also flagged up some concerns about the way in which sewerage licences were to be calculated, given that there is very little metering of wastewater output from premises. I do not disagree with the rather pragmatic conclusion that in the absence of metering of sewerage, it is best to base the calculation on the clean water supply to the premises. Given that there is an overarching environmental need to encourage businesses to manage and limit wastewater, the department could do more to encourage people to manage water supply—I am talking about both clean and dirty water—and put in place more effective processes for charging for wastewater disposal in the future. There are good initiatives out there but many businesses are happy to pour very highly polluted water down the drain in large quantities.

Secondly, the water industry designated codes regulations set out the arrangements for appeals to the Competition and Markets Authority. Again, I do not disagree with the rather pragmatic approach taken in these regulations, which suggests that we need to establish a fast-track appeals process, similar to the energy code appeals. However, these are short-term pragmatic solutions that are necessary to get the new system up and running in time for the April start.

However, we need to see how the codes and appeals bed down and whether—as is often the case—their application has unforeseen consequences. I would be grateful, therefore, if the Minister indicated how the operation of these regulations, and the others to which he has referred, will be kept under review as the retail market matures. In response to the consultation on the codes, the Government said:

“It is to be expected that the regulatory structure around a healthy, well-functioning market may need to evolve when competition has become long-established”.


We agree with that, but it would be helpful if the Minister set out the process by which this evolution will be monitored and how Parliament can best be enabled to play a full role in that review. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, this has turned out to be a rather more interesting debate than the one I thought I was embarking upon. As I said, however, the Government are committed to opening up the retail water market on 1 April, giving business, charity and public sector customers choice over their water company. The regulations debated today are an essential part of the framework, including primary and secondary legislation codes and licences, which will allow the market to function, evolve effectively and provide safeguards for customers.

I am most grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, for her endorsement of what are pragmatic measures. She asked what steps are in hand to charge more effectively for wastewater disposal. More than 90% of non-household premises are metered for the purpose of calculating water use, but a much smaller number are metered for measuring the discharges of wastewater to which she referred. While there are currently no plans to push for more wastewater metering, we believe that the introduction of the sewerage licensing regime could lead to the development of the market for wastewater meters, with the purpose of reducing charges.

We also expect that sewerage licensees will work with their customers to provide advice on the recycling of wastewater, the collection and re-use of rainwater and surface water, and other water efficiency measures. This is primarily to reduce the demand for water and provide savings on water charges, but it would also automatically lead to lower wastewater charges for unmetered sewerage customers. I was very taken, therefore, by what the noble Baroness said, and by the essential belief that we all share in the importance of using water wisely.

The noble Baroness also asked about how the water code appeal regulations and the retail market will be kept under review. Ofwat will be implementing a market monitoring framework that will closely scrutinise the performance of the market on a range of measures. No new market will be perfect on day one—that is the human condition—but benefits will consolidate over time. Customer switching levels will be an important measure but clearly not the only one. It will be important to see that customers are able to negotiate the right deal for them and that competitive markets are fair, transparent and efficient. My department will look in particular at how these regulations contribute to supporting an effective and transparent market. We will also review the effectiveness of the CMA code appeal regulations, as new codes are added to the appeals regime.

I must applaud my noble friend Lord Deben for his customary tenacity in raising an issue that I know is close to his and many other hearts. The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, assisted me slightly by saying that the measures before your Lordships relate entirely to the non-household sector, but my noble friend and the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, have given me a sharp reminder, which I take on board. The Water Industry Act 1991 sets out the circumstances in which a water company is required to make a connection. It is a qualified duty. I could set out the circumstances in which a water company is required to make a connection, but the most important thing for today’s purposes is that I shall write to those of your Lordships who have attended and contributed to this debate.

I am confident that these regulations represent another marker in the Government’s journey to reform the water market and provide more choice to non-household customers. For those reasons, I commend the regulations to your Lordships.

Motion agreed.

Water Act 2014 (Consequential Amendments etc.) Order 2017

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts

Thursday 9th March 2017 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Water Act 2014 (Consequential Amendments etc.) Order 2017.

Motion agreed.

Water Industry Designated Codes (Appeals to the Competition and Markets Authority) Regulations 2017

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts

Thursday 9th March 2017 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Water Industry Designated Codes (Appeals to the Competition and Markets Authority) Regulations 2017.

Motion agreed.

Rural Areas: Income

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts

Tuesday 7th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, this Government are committed to working for everyone in all parts of the country. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington, for his review of rural proofing. Through rural proofing, we will understand and better reflect in our policies the needs of rural communities, including those on low incomes. The Government are currently revising their guidance on rural proofing, and it will be published shortly on GOV.UK.

[Lord Beith (LD)]

My Lords, I very much welcome rural proofing and the work that the Minister is doing on it, but why do so many government departments fail to recognise the huge barrier of transport costs faced by families on low incomes in rural areas when they need to access public services? Whether it is young people needing to get to further education colleges or older people needing to access increasingly centralised health and social services, they are so often cut off and excluded by the costs of transport. Surely we cannot allow ourselves to stumble into a situation where you have to be well off to live in the countryside.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I entirely agree with the noble Lord that it is very important that we enhance accessibility. Sparsity and the topography of the countryside mean that there are great challenges. That is why I am particularly pleased that the community minibus fund was launched. It will enable about 300 local charities and community groups across England to receive a new minibus, which will be helpful. Clearly, there is more that we want to do. On the whole issue of transport and accessibility it is important, for instance, that under the post office transformation all post office branches will have banking facilities. There are ways in which we can assist rural communities across the piece.

[Earl Cathcart (Con)]

My Lords, as it is National Apprenticeship Week, what are the Government doing to encourage apprenticeships in rural areas?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the Government are committed to reaching 3 million apprenticeship starts in England by 2020. That includes trebling the number of apprenticeships in food and farming from 6,000 to 18,000. National parks authorities, for instance, are seeking to double the number of apprenticeships. It is important that we not only encourage apprenticeships this week but work with employers of all sizes. A new apprenticeship levy is coming into force in April this year for larger businesses. This is an enormous opportunity. Raising the skills of young people in the countryside and across the nation is a force for good.

[Lord Grantchester (Lab)]

My Lords, the Commission for Rural Communities was established in 2005 by the last Labour Administration, to promote awareness of rural needs among decision-makers across government. It produced some key reports on rural life, highlighting that those living in poverty in rural areas, often in geographical isolation, can be harder to identify and help. But the coalition Government scrapped the CRC in 2013. With the issues of agriculture, trade and food policy on Brexit, what structures are in place to ensure that the interests of rural communities are heard and acted on during the negotiations?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I will make sure that the noble Lord receives a copy of the new, revised rural-proofing guidance. I have been working with my honourable friend Ben Gummer, the Minister for the Cabinet Office, on this. It is important that all departments across Whitehall understand the issues of rural communities. As Minister for Rural Affairs, I am on a number of ministerial task forces—connectivity and housing, to mention two—precisely to ensure that the rural voice is heard.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, given what the Minister has just said, is he concerned by the fact that in many rural and underprivileged areas libraries and leisure centres are under threat? These are the very places that offer a glimmer of light to people who lead rather dark lives in terms of entertainment and education.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, this rather takes me back to my DCMS days. One thing that very much strikes me is how vibrant so many rural communities are. Certainly in my part of Suffolk, the amount of cultural activities going on—in dance, theatre and music—is incredible. We all want to improve that and have greater accessibility to those things, but the noble Lord may be painting a rather too pessimistic picture.

[Lord Morris of Handsworth (Lab)]

My Lords, making work pay is a very seductive slogan, but is the Minister not aware that many of the families who are worst off in our country have someone working in the gig economy? What steps can the Government take to ensure that people are paid properly and earn at least a living wage?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, there is a national living wage and it is an obligation. I am very pleased that it is to rise to £7.50 per hour in April. That is precisely why we want to ensure that, with the increase in tax allowance and more coming through, people at the lower end of the income range are those who we are helping.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, rural proofing does not seem to have reached local government, where many local services have withdrawn from villages into urban centres as a consequence of the deep cuts to local government funding. What advice would the Minister provide to the Secretary of State or his fellow Minister the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, about funding for district and county councils to enable rural proofing?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, as I say, the rural-proofing guidance is to go across Whitehall and the DCLG is of course a very important government department in that respect. There are clearly considerable sums of money still going to local authorities and it is for them to decide on the division of the budget. But this predicates something rather more important: we have to have a growing economy to afford all the things we want to do. That is why this country has the fastest-growing economy in the G7, which is important because it is only when we grow our economy that we will have the resources to do many of the things which I am sure your Lordships wish to have done.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton (Lab)]

My Lords, would the Minister care to correct his assertion about the national living wage and the national minimum wage? Secondly, can he assure me that when the Government put in new free schools in areas where there is no need in terms of numbers, they will consider the needs of the rural economy? I declare my interest as a former chair of Lancashire education authority. Because of the history of Lancashire, we have the largest number of voluntary-aided schools. People have wanted diversity locally for Anglican and Catholic schools, in the main, across the county. Can be we assured that the Government will not come in from Whitehall with little knowledge and step over the needs of the local community? Some of those schools need money and investment.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, that is precisely why I suspect we are going to hear about more investment: we want to enhance the opportunity for children across the country. We have some schools that are simply not up to the standard that we want. That is why we will need to invest more and why I am a champion of rural schools—precisely because we want to ensure that there are opportunities in rural areas, as across the rest of the country. As for the living wage, I will check Hansard. The national living wage will certainly rise to £7.50 per hour in April but I will see whether I have made a mistake.

Circuses: Wild Animals

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts

Wednesday 1st March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will bring forward legislation further to their manifesto commitment to ban wild animals in circuses.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government remain committed to banning the use of wild animals in circuses, and primary legislation will be introduced when parliamentary time is available. In the meantime, ahead of a ban, to safeguard the welfare of any wild animals still used in circuses, Defra introduced a licensing scheme in 2013, which is currently in use for 16 wild animals in two travelling circuses.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

I thank the Minister for his reply, and I take his point that only a few animals are subject to this, but however well-regulated, they still suffer physical and social deprivation. Given that more than a dozen Private Members’ Bills on this issue have been blocked in Parliament over the last few years, will the Minister give us a timetable for the Government’s delivering on their promise of a ban?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am not in a position to say precisely, but I would like to take one issue up. One of the reasons we introduced the licensing scheme was to ensure the welfare of the animals. I have seen the conditions of the welfare scheme associated with the licensing, which is rigorous and requires inspections by vets and inspectors at least four times a year. The welfare standards of these animals—six reindeer, three camels, three zebras, one fox, a macaw, a racoon and a zebu—are high. On ethical grounds, this situation should be prohibited.

[Lord Borwick (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that such legislation might obstruct the ability of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to pull a rabbit out of a hat next week?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I am afraid my noble friend is a bit too fast for me there. The truth is that this is important legislation that we wish to put forward, but I am confident that the welfare elements, which are so important, are well-provided for in the licensing scheme.

[Baroness Parminter (LD)]

My Lords, wild animals are not just kept in circuses—they are still kept in homes. About 5,000 primates are kept as pets in the UK. The Primate Code was due for review in 2015. When are the Government going to get on and do it?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, there is of course legislation, and under the requirements of the Dangerous Wild Animals Act the primary focus is public safety, but clearly, the Animal Welfare Act 2006 absolutely applies. We are absolutely clear that it is not appropriate at all for primates to be kept as pets.

[Lord Trees (CB)]

My Lords, I was going to ask about primates myself. Both the BVA and well-respected animal welfare organisations such as the RSPCA all agree that primates are totally unsuitable to be kept as pets; they are highly social, highly intelligent animals and many welfare problems arise when they are kept in captivity as pets. Will the Government consider taking stronger action to remedy this serious welfare issue?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I will certainly take back what your Lordships have said, but it is absolutely clear that the Animal Welfare Act 2006 makes it an offence to cause unnecessary suffering to an animal. This is backed up by a code of practice, and no one should keep a primate in solitary conditions, as the noble Lord has said, keep it in a small cage or feed it with an inappropriate diet. In other words, I repeat: primates should not be kept as pets.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, perhaps I may push the Minister further on the real reason for the delay in introducing the Bill. According to the latest Defra consultation, 95% of the population support a ban and the issue has cross-party support, so it cannot be because the Government fear a backlash. We are prepared to work with the Government to introduce what ought to be fairly simple legislation, and I really do not understand why there is continuing delay.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I obviously understand what the noble Baroness is saying, and I too would like to make progress. However, I repeat that 16 wild animals are currently under a very rigorous licensing scheme. I deliberately mentioned their species so that your Lordships could understand which animals were involved. I emphasise that there are very regular inspections, and one reason why primary legislation is necessary is that there is a view that a legal challenge would be made because there would be insufficient grounds to secure a ban on a welfare basis.

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, even if enforcement is rigorous in relation to animals in circuses, what about the position of the other animals that have been referred to—the primates which are inappropriately kept in people’s homes? Who is enforcing the laws relating to that?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, these are all matters that local authorities are required to ensure are enforced under the Dangerous Wild Animals Act. Clearly, if there were any issues, Defra would want to work with local authorities because it is absolutely essential that suitable animal welfare provisions are in place. I will take back what has been said about primates—I am very conscious of that—and if I have anything further to add, I will report back to your Lordships.

[Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer (LD)]

My Lords, a lot of the wild creatures kept in people’s homes as pets, whether birds or any other creature, have been smuggled into this country. Is the Minister confident that the National Wildlife Crime Unit has sufficient capacity to deal with the level of smuggling?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

The noble Baroness raises a very important issue. The answer is that we believe that there are sufficient resources at the border, but clearly we need to be ever more rigorous. There are all sorts of schemes under many directives. From an animal welfare point of view, it is hugely inappropriate to smuggle in animals, whether they are domesticated or wild, and this is one area I will very much look at addressing.

[Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)]

My Lords, as the Minister is aware, there are very strict conditions on keeping animals in zoos. Has he seen the report in this morning’s papers about the zoo in the Furness district of Cumbria, where there has been an appalling number of deaths of wild animals—over 500, I think—in recent years?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I have indeed. Of course, a zoo-keeper also died in that case. It is inappropriate for me to reply in detail because this matter is subject to the consideration of an application renewal by Barrow-in-Furness Borough Council, which will be happening very shortly. However, I am very conscious of what I think are far too many deaths among animals in that zoo.

Air Pollution

Lord Gardiner of Kimble Excerpts

Tuesday 21st February 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Gardiner of Kimble) (Con)]

My Lords, we will set out new plans for nitrogen dioxide by 24 April, and publish a final plan by 31 July. The department is working across government, particularly with the Department for Transport, and with local authorities. This includes implementation of clean air zones. Since 2011 the Government have invested £2 billion in greener transport, with a further £290 million committed in 2016. We need to go further and faster, particularly on nitrogen dioxide.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

I thank the Minister for his reply. While I am grateful for the valuable assistance that Her Majesty’s Government are giving to cleaner fuels and alternative fuels, there is a growing consensus that we need both urgent and robust action on this now to solve the problem of air pollution, not least that caused by the nitrogen dioxide emissions from diesel cars. Will the Minister tell your Lordships’ House what Her Majesty’s Government are doing to ensure that new diesel cars are not exceeding those nitrogen dioxide emissions, not just in laboratory conditions but on the roads, which is quite different? Will Her Majesty’s Government consider phasing out any cars that do not reach those limits?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, it is important to ensure that what happens in the laboratory is also what happens in real driving tests. That is why the Government have been at the forefront of calls for action to introduce real driving emissions testing. This is clearly essential to meeting our air quality goals, and the test will come in from September this year. I think the right reverend Prelate talked about extending to cars the whole purpose and thrust of the Government’s investment, along with others, which is to ensure that we have low-emission vehicles. We are one of the leading countries in this area and I think we will see very good results from that leadership.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate the Government on their recent consultation on air quality, and I have been looking through some of the responses. Perhaps I may declare an interest in that I was encouraged by successive Governments to buy a diesel car, which I then did. What is the Government’s policy on potentially introducing a scrappage system? How would they intend to pay for such a system, and, assuming that we will have left the European Union by 2020, which body will in future police nitrogen dioxide limits?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, on the question of a scrappage scheme, we are obviously considering the steps needed following the High Court ruling on updated data emissions from diesel vehicles, but we think that the use of clean air zones is a more targeted and proportionate approach to dealing with emissions. Moreover, we are pressing on with plans in five cities and we are working with the Mayor of London. On the issue of a post-Brexit regime, all the regulations on this will come into our domestic law. The air quality regulations were made under the European Communities Act and so will be preserved via the great repeal Bill.

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

My Lords, if the Government have been so remiss in meeting their environmental responsibilities in the present circumstances —in which they face fines for non-compliance—what possible chance is there that our environment will be properly protected when that sanction no longer applies?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I would not seek to be partisan, but perhaps I should say to the noble Lord that the dash to diesel happened under his party’s regime. That is one reason why we are now having to resolve the problem. In fact, nitrogen dioxide levels went down by 4% between 2014 and 2015, and we are seeking to continue that. However, we are retrieving a situation that the noble Lord’s party assisted in the passage of.

[Baroness Parminter (LD)]

My Lords, can the Minister tell us exactly which towns and cities are being affected by the reasoned opinion of the European Commission?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I have a list of 16 zones, while the five cities that we are working on as regards clean air zones are Birmingham, Leeds, Nottingham, Derby and Southampton. I should say that my honourable friend Therese Coffey has been discussing these matters with representatives from other cities because under the Transport Act 2000, local authorities can impose clean air zones if they so wish.

[Lord Tebbit (Con)]

My Lords, did my noble friend hear the answers given by our noble friend Lord Ahmad concerning more cycling? Is he aware that sometimes it can take more than an hour to drive from Parliament Square to the Tower of London? That has been caused by the barricades that have been put up to assist cyclists, who also get in the way on the main carriageways.

[Lord Tebbit]

The noble Lord opposite speaks very impertinently to me and other people of my age, who would have grave difficulty cycling on the roads these days. However, a principal cause of the excess nitrogen dioxide in the air of Westminster and along the Embankment is those wretched barricades that were put up by the former mayor.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I hope I can continue in the right vein by saying that I would advise that the Circle and District lines are a very good way to get from here to the Tower of London and that part of London. However, my noble friend makes the serious point that no one wants congestion. We obviously want to encourage cycling and I hope that once we have installed the facilities for cycling, this will provide an easier time for the very tolerant taxi drivers and the people who need to get about in vehicles, such as emergency vehicles. Like all these things, there is a balance to this and I hope we can get these cycling lanes in place and then ensure that London runs ever more smoothly.