Care Bill [Lords]

Dan Poulter Excerpts

Tuesday 11th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon]

That is the issue, summed up in a couple of sentences. The Minister may look to his civil servants for some direction; he may have it already. If so, that is good news.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Dr Daniel Poulter)]

May I reiterate what I said many times in my opening remarks, which I hope will be helpful to the hon. Gentleman? Clear safeguards are being put in place to ensure that the data cannot be used for insurance purposes. I give that reassurance again today.

[Jim Shannon]

Earlier I referred to Macmillan and to Cancer Research UK who, even today, are not convinced. We make these points on behalf of our constituents and the groups that lobby us.

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[Mr Reed]

I absolutely share those concerns. We did not hear anything last night that reassured anybody who understands the Bill. Certainly, Government new clause 34 is not worth the paper that it was hastily written on, and I want to move on to that right now.

Surely it is not too much to expect the democratically elected politician who sits in Cabinet and is responsible for the national health service to be accountable for how the medical data that that service captures is used. Crucially, the Secretary of State for Health is accountable not only to this House but to the people of this country in a way that a quango cannot be and has never been. Such accountability can begin the process of building the trust necessary to ensure the success of projects such as care.data. Without that, QED, the Secretary of State is asking Parliament and the people of this country for permission to remove democratic accountability from how their confidential medical data are used. The implications for the use of patient data in any project are utterly toxic.

I said earlier that it would be tragic if the Government’s failings were to continue to contribute towards the erosion of trust in care.data. Sadly, the Bill provides scope for other regrets. Part 1 seeks to make worthwhile but modest improvements to our care system, falling a long way short of the concept of whole-person care articulated by Labour. The Government new clauses and amendments that we are now discussing, however, and clause 119—the hospital closure clause that we will discuss later—fundamentally disfigure what is without doubt a worthwhile Bill. Perhaps that shows us the two sides of the coalition in the ministerial team. We shall see. None the less, it is a cause for regret.

Trust is at the heart of Government new clause 34. Yesterday, the Minister tried to reassure the House that the new clause would provide the safeguards that people require for the protection of their confidential medical data. He demonstrably failed to do that. Challenged time and again to illustrate how his new clause would facilitate the claims he has made for it, or improve safeguards for patients, he could not do so. Next time, it might be a good idea if the Secretary of State could get the same person to write both the Government amendments and the Government press release, because the amendments and the new clause do not provide what the Government claim they will. Sadly, that erodes trust yet further.

New clause 34 has been made necessary due to the appalling handling of the care.data project by the Government and the resulting erosion of public trust. The truth is that the new clause was hastily tabled again just before the deadline for amendments because the original, botched new clause 14 did not do what the Government said it would. Guess what? New clause 34 does not do what they say it will either. Subsection (3) would amend section 261 of the Health and Social Care Act 2012 to read:

“The Information Centre may disseminate (other than by way of publication), to any such persons and in such form and manner and at such times as it considers appropriate.

But the Information Centre may do so only if it considers that disseminating the information would be for the purposes of—

(a) the provision of health care or adult social care;

(b) the promotion of health.”

Yesterday, the Minister was given numerous opportunities to explain how this provision would prohibit private health insurance companies from gaining access to our data—he could not do so. The new clause provides for entirely elastic definitions that, in practice, will have a limitless application.

What happens when a private health insurance company requests information from the HSCIC on the basis that it was going to conduct specific controlled, randomised assessments of the impact of physical activity on various age groups in order to promote and recommend appropriate physical activity to its policyholders— perhaps with a view to reducing their premiums? That is clearly being used to promote health and well-being, so how would new clause 34 stop it? It would not—under the proposed wording, it would be facilitated. Once such a company has the data, what prevents it from using them for other means? Under our new clause 25, such use would be a clear offence, but sadly the Government have offered no such safeguards.

It is no wonder the public cannot trust Ministers. Just a few weeks ago, in Committee room 9, the Minister assured me and the rest of the Public Bill Committee:

“There are strict controls about the release of potentially identifiable information; for example, that type of information would only ever be released to approved organisations for approved purposes”.––[Official Report, Care Public Bill Committee, 30 January 2014; c. 516.]

Yet these strict controls fail to appear time and again. The only comfort offered to the public is that those issues will be resolved by regulations drafted by Ministers in whom confidence and trust has been lost—that is not good enough. With that in mind, can the Minister explain who signed off the release of data covering 47 million patients that were obtained by the Institute and Faculty of Actuaries? Such issues must be addressed, and it seems likely that when he eventually responds to the Chair of the Health Committee, the Secretary of State will give cause for yet further concern about how patient data are being used.

In responding to the news about that massive data breach, a Department of Health source stated:

“The rules changed last year so this would no longer be allowed. Information like this can only be accessed now if there is a clear benefit to improving health or health systems.”

It is chaos: if the rules have already been changed, the new clause tabled in haste by the Minister is full of superfluous subsections. Why does he need to change the rules again if they have already been changed?

We have a golden opportunity to get this right. The more that patients allow their data to be used, the greater the positive effects of care.data. These issues will not be resolved today and they will not be resolved by any of the Government proposals before us. If we want care.data and schemes like it to work in the future, we need to establish trust. Getting this right will save lives. Accountability is critical when accessing and using the most sensitive personal data, and the whole House can send a message to the people of this country—that we understand their concerns, that we are serious about safeguarding their most private data and that we are determined to continue to improve our health services—by voting for new clause 25 and amendment 29.

[Dr Poulter]

I thank hon. Members for the many comments and pertinent points made during the debate, both last night and today, and I will do my best to respond to the main issues raised. In particular, I wish briefly to respond to a couple of points raised by the shadow Minister. He talked about rank incompetence, but let us remember that the previous Government wasted £10 billion on an NHS IT project that was not fit for purpose and did not work. So Government Members will take no lessons about information services in the NHS from Labour Members, given that their Government wasted £10 billion, which I would have rather seen spent on front-line patient care. Furthermore, Labour Members repeatedly raise the issue of the lack of safeguards, but they failed to put them in place when they were in government. Only this Government have put in place safeguards, doing so through the 2012 Act, which I outlined clearly in my contribution last night, and through the further reassurances provided by the proposals we are making today.

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[Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab)]

We all want to see better, more integrated care, so why did Ministers not keep a closer eye on the cock-up that has been made with care.data?

[Dr Poulter]

It was very clear, as NHS England has acknowledged, that the communication exercise put forward was not ideal. That is part of the reason why we are debating the issue today. I hope I have brought further reassurance to hon. Members about the fact that the 2012 Act does put in place robust safeguards, which were not in place under the previous Labour Government. We have put in place the safeguards through that Act and through the Government amendments we have tabled.

[Mr Jamie Reed]

Does the Minister accept any responsibility for this near disastrous collapse of the care.data scheme, or is it all NHS England’s fault?

[Dr Poulter]

As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, under the 2012 Act, NHS England has responsibility for much of the operational day-to-day performance of the NHS, and NHS England has accepted responsibility for the fact that it did not communicate some of the information about care.data in the best way. But I hope that by referring the House to the safeguards we have in the 2012 Act and the additional safeguards we are putting in place through our Government amendments, we can reassure hon. Members that data will be used for the benefit of the health and care system, and for the promotion of health.

I wish now to deal with some of the good points raised in the debate and I hope to bring further reassurance to hon. Members. My hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) rightly asked about an issue that came up recently in the Health Committee: whether data would be allowed to be passed on to the Department for Work and Pensions. The overriding purpose of any release to the DWP could not conceivably be the provision of health care or adult social care in England or the promotion of health so, no, that could not happen under the 2012 Act or under the provisions we have introduced today.

My hon. Friend also raised issues relating to the HSCIC and free text. As the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) said, it was outlined in the Health Committee evidence sessions that the use of free text had been examined and had, in effect, been ruled out—I hope that my recollection is correct on that. To give further reassurance, may I say that the HSCIC made it clear that the General Practice Extraction Service that we have in place to support the extraction of the data from those GP systems for care.data has taken great care to ensure that we extract only the coded information in those records, not the free text notes, which patients may well have shared during consultations with their GPs? In addition, a number of explicit conditions were excluded from those extractions, including issues relating to HIV/AIDS; sexually transmitted infections; termination of pregnancy; in vitro fertilisation treatment; complaints; convictions; imprisonment; and abuse by others. Clear safeguards and reassurances have been established on those issues, and I hope that reassures my hon. Friend further.

[Dr Wollaston]

Will the Minister confirm that there is no way that free text will be uploaded, either now or in the future?

[Dr Poulter]

As things stand at the moment, free text is not going to be used. That is the reassurance given by the HSCIC; it clearly does not envisage that text being used and it has given reassurances on that. That is reassuring for me and I hope it is reassuring to my hon. Friend. There are those additional safeguards in place, particularly for vulnerable patient groups, to make sure that more personal data about convictions, imprisonment and abuse by others will not be collected by the information centre.

[Grahame M. Morris]

rose—

[Dr Poulter]

I will deal first with the points made by the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South and then I will give way. I inferred from the hon. Lady’s remarks that she thought that GPs should be able to opt out for their patients. However, we have made it clear that it is a decision not for GPs to make on behalf of their patients but for the patients themselves. Furthermore, people can, at any time, object or change their mind, and the Health and Social Care Information Centre must respect their wishes and remove their data from records.

[Grahame M. Morris]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. Will he clarify the point raised by the hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) in relation to vulnerable patient groups? Does that include patients with very rare conditions who could be identified, even from anonymised data, because they are part of a relatively small group?

[Dr Poulter]

Of course strict criteria are in place under the 2012 Act about the use of data where a patient could be identified. The Health and Social Care Information Centre cannot randomly release data that would identify patients, except where there are specific public policy reasons for doing so, such as in the event of a flu pandemic or a public emergency. There are strong safeguards in place under that legislation to protect patient data. It would be wrong of the hon. Gentleman—I know he often inadvertently misleads himself in some of his conclusions and goes around in circles in his remarks—to confuse Members and to confuse the House. The legislation is clear. He has been in many debates on the matter over the past few weeks, and strong protections are in place to protect patient confidentiality and to prevent patients from being inappropriately identified.

I do not want to be drawn into individual cases, but the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South also raised the issue of the MedRed BT Health Cloud, which will provide public access in the United States to 50 million de-identified patient records from the Health and Social Care Information Centre in the UK. We have clarified the matter. The data referred to are not confidential, but are published anonymous data of the aggregate population—not at patient level. The data are available freely to any member of the public or organisation via data.gov.uk. There is no conspiracy about the data; they are freely available to any one of us in this Chamber or to any member of the public.

It is worth highlighting the powers of the Secretary of State, which the shadow Minister also raised in his comments. Let me reassure the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South in respect of the amendment that she has tabled today. Section 245 of the 2012 Act enables the Secretary of State to direct the Health and Social Care Information Centre to establish information systems—to collect data—including systems on how to carry out that collection.

The Secretary of State can also direct the Health and Social Care Information Centre to report on any matter about its functions. If concerns were raised about the issue of free text data, which my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes mentioned, the Secretary of State could pass on directions to the Health and Social Care Information Centre.

[Barbara Keeley]

The Minister referred to my manuscript amendment on parliamentary oversight of the actions of the HSCIC. I tabled that amendment late because there is a belief that the Secretary of State and the Minister have not been asking the right questions. It has taken the Health Committee and other Members making inquiries to bring out all the issues. We need to keep on doing that, which is why I tabled that important amendment. There was not time to do it in a timely way, but that is why it was done.

[Dr Poulter]

As a Member of the previous Government, it is a pity that the hon. Lady did not take these issues more seriously at the time. It has been left to the current Government to fix the problem through the 2012 Act and the amendments that we have tabled today. That is not good enough and she knows it. It is also the case that she has not read the 2012 Act properly, because I have just outlined the section 245 powers that the Secretary of State has. That is parliamentary oversight in anyone’s terms.

Finally, let me turn to amendment 29 tabled by the hon. Member for Copeland (Mr Reed). As he has said:

“The importance of such data in medical research, and in the synthesis of new treatments and better care, cannot be overstated. In research terms, more information about how people with certain conditions react to treatments can led to better research being undertaken, which uses resources more efficiently and improves a patient’s quality of life.” ––[Official Report, Care [Lords] Public Bill Committee, 30 January 2014; c. 513.]

I completely agree with that. It is important that we uphold a person’s right to confidentiality while enabling the use of information to improve the current and future health and care of the population, with appropriate safeguards to protect confidentiality.

The Health Service (Control of Patient Information) Regulations 2002 made under section 251 of the National Health Service Act 2006 modify the common law obligations of confidentiality. It allows researchers, public health staff and other medical practitioners to access information where there is no reasonably practicable way of obtaining consent to use such information for the purposes of medical research. That is in the interests of improving patient care or in the public interest.

Amendment 29 requires the Secretary State to give approval for the processing of confidential patient information for research purposes. In January 2011, the Academy of Medical Sciences published a review of the regulation and governance of health research. It criticised the complexity of the arrangements for regulating the use of patient information, saying that they are a significant barrier to research. None of us in this House wishes to put barriers in the way of medical research. The Secretary of State has already delegated the function of the approval of processing confidential patient information for research purposes to the existing Health Research Authority special health authority. The 2002 regulations as amended by this Bill would give the new HRA this function directly.

Under this Bill, the HRA would be responsible for overseeing the ethical review of health and adult social care research. As access to patient information may involve the consideration of ethical issues, it makes sense for the HRA to make decisions on applications for access to confidential patient information for research purposes.

Robust legislative safeguards ensure approval for access to patient information for research purposes is given appropriately by the HRA. These include a condition that the HRA may approve processing of patient information for research purposes only if approval has been given by a research ethics committee, established or recognised by the HRA, and a requirement that the new HRA appoints an independent committee to provide advice on applications to process patient information. This provides continuity for the committee known as the confidentiality advisory group, which I spoke about earlier in my opening remarks.

[Sarah Newton]

rose—

[Dr Poulter]

If my hon. Friend will forgive me, I will not give way. I have only two minutes left, and I want to address some of the other points made in the debate.

The HRA was set up to streamline approvals for research. The Academy of Medical Sciences has said that the transfer of responsibility for the research use of confidential patient information to the HRA provides a good opportunity to reduce the complexity in this area of regulation and governance that has in the past led to conflicting interpretations of it by researchers, trusts, patients and other stakeholders. It brings important clarity to the people whom we care about the most—the patients and the users of our health and care services.

Given those reassurances, I hope that the hon. Member for Copeland (Mr Reed) will withdraw his amendment and that Members will feel able to support the Government’s revised clauses in the interests of bringing greater clarity to safeguard patient confidentiality in the use of health and care information.

I am also grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes and other colleagues for tabling amendments (a) and (b) to new clause 34. It is clear that we share the desire that the huge wealth of data available through the health and care information system must support research to improve health and care. Although I welcome the intention behind amendment (a), which is to clarify that data should generally be disseminated only for purposes that improve health and care, the proposed wording would have the unintended effect of closing down access to data for some wholly legitimate purposes. For example, it might effectively block the Health and Social Care Information Centre from disseminating data that could be used to ensure that a particular health care service change will not have a negative impact on current levels of safety and quality of care or, worse, on the prevention of harm. I am sure that we would all want to avoid such an unintended consequence in the wake of the Francis report and the need to use health and care data properly to expose the rare examples in our NHS and care system of care that does not meet the standards we expect.

I have done my best to address many of the concerns raised in the debate. The care.data programme is a good one that we should all support. This Government, unlike the previous Government, are ensuring that we have proper safeguards in place to protect patient confidentiality.

Question put and agreed to.

New clause 34 accordingly read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

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[Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab)]

I rise to speak to my amendment 30. When the coalition came to office, it made a series of grand promises about future changes to hospital services. The coalition agreement proclaimed:

“We will stop the centrally dictated closure of A&E and maternity wards, so that people have better access to local services.”

GPs were to be put in the driving seat and given the power to shape local services. That was then; now we have a Secretary of State who has not just failed to stop centrally dictated closures but wants to legislate to make them much easier. What a difference four years make.

Clause 119 allows a hospital to be closed or downgraded simply because it happens to be near a failing one. It denies local people a meaningful say in those life and death decisions. It creates an entirely new route for hospital reconfiguration—top-down and finance-led. It subverts the established process in the NHS, which requires that any changes to hospitals should first and foremost be about saving lives, rather than saving money. It puts management consultants, not medical consultants or GPs, in the driving seat. By any reckoning, it represents a major change of policy from the one originally set out by the coalition.

[Dr Poulter]

If the right hon. Gentleman is so concerned about issues of financial failure, why did the Health Act 2009, through which the previous Labour Government introduced the regime, allow trust special administrators to consider only financial failure, not care failure, a fact which we are changing in the Bill?

[Andy Burnham]

The Minister anticipates me—he has hit the nail on the head. It was a different vehicle. It was a vehicle for financial and administrative reconfiguration, not service reconfiguration. In our view, those important decisions cannot be imposed on people, but should follow an established process. It should begin with local consultation, with local elected members involved in overview and scrutiny having the chance to make challenges, and then it should be referred for independent reconfiguration. That was the previous Government’s established policy, and in my view it is the right way to make changes in the NHS. As I shall explain, that is why I believe that he and his colleagues are spectacularly wrong.

[Dr Poulter]

rose—

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

rose—

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[Andy Burnham]

I agree with my hon. Friend. That is the point that the Minister revealed in his intervention. The original power was designed for something entirely different. It was designed to deal with financial failure in a trust. It put in place measures to dissolve and rescue that trust through administrative reconfiguration. It was never intended as a vehicle for back-door reconfiguration across a whole health economy. That is where the Government got themselves into trouble. The fact that they cannot see that now, after the court has told them that they went way beyond Parliament’s original intention, reflects badly on their ability to listen.

[Dr Poulter]

rose—

[Mr Dorrell]

rose—

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[Andy Burnham]

This is where the right hon. Gentleman and I differ. I believe that we need to begin by asking whether there is a clinical case for change and build from there. Clause 119 seeks to turn things around. It starts with the financial case for change and the clinical issues come second. The previous Government established a very clear policy, advised by Sir Ian Carruthers, that the clinical case must be front and centre, and that we must build from there. Clause 119 completely subverts that.

[Dr Poulter]

The shadow Secretary of State is rewriting history. Under the TSA clause written by the Labour Government, only financial failure could be considered as part of a trust special administrator regime. That is not the case under the changes in the Bill, in which it is about patient care. The Care Quality Commission has a clear role in assuring that patient care. Will he now accept that?

[Andy Burnham]

The Minister makes my point again. The powers dealt only with financial failure. That is the point. The Government tried to misappropriate those powers and use them as a back-door route to impose reconfiguration on local communities. That is where they got into trouble. That is why the High Court said that they were acting beyond their powers and breaking Parliament’s original intention in the legislation. In his two interventions, he has made my fundamental case, which is that this is the wrong vehicle for making major changes to hospital services.

[Dr Poulter]

rose—

[Jim Dowd (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab)]

rose—

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[Andy Burnham]

I will make some progress but I will give way to the hon. Gentleman before the end of my speech.

Let me set out more of the background, because the Minister raised it a moment ago. In 2009 I took proposals through the House to create a process that could be used in extremis to deal with a trust that had got into serious financial problems. That was a financial and administrative vehicle, not a vehicle for widespread service change across the health economy. That is why the High Court was quite correct in upholding Parliament’s original intention when it accepted the case of the people of Lewisham against the Secretary of State, and threw out his plan to downgrade a much-loved and successful hospital. At that point, common decency would have suggested that the right response to the reverse in court would have been to listen to the court and bow down gracefully. Instead, it appears for all the world as if in a fit of pique, the Secretary of State is changing the law to get his way because he can. Imagine the outcry if someone caught breaking the law could simply come along and change it to their satisfaction. We would not accept that for burglars, and we should not accept it for politicians.

[Dr Poulter]

The right hon. Gentleman is being very generous in giving way. He makes the point that, during his time in office, the regime was very limited. In the interests of consistency, I point out that page 6 of his own impact assessment for the TSA regime in May 2009 states:

“NHS Trusts…are not free-floating, commercial organisations …State-owned providers are part of a wider NHS system.”

That directly contradicts what the right hon. Gentleman has just been saying.

[Andy Burnham]

Is the Minister listening to the debate and to what I am saying? I have explained to him carefully that that was a vehicle for financial and administrative reconfiguration. Yes, a neighbouring trust might have had to come and help with a solution to carry on with the administration and the running of that trust. That is the point, and that is what he has just read out. It was never a vehicle for service change—I do not know how many times I can make that point to the Minister before he actually listens.

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[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

I have left instructions for my body to be left to Oxford university medical school, partly because there is quite a lot of it, but also because I hope that, in that way, I can demonstrate that engraved on my heart are the words, “Keep the Horton General”. When the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) was Secretary of State for Health, my local general hospital was threatened with the downgrading of its maternity and children’s services. We went to the health overview and scrutiny committee, which referred matters to the independent reconfiguration panel. As a consequence, we now have consultant-delivered children’s services and a consultant-led maternity service. I, too, am slightly disappointed that the Secretary of State is not here to listen to the debate, because I am concerned about the proposals as someone who has had to contest the downgrading of hospital services.

I have some questions to put briefly to my hon. Friend the Minister. The “Dear colleague” letter circulated to us gives the impression that the powers in the proposals will be used only in exceptional circumstances, when services are clinically unsafe or when a trust is financially insolvent. However, hon. Members know that many trusts will end up with a deficit this year. I need the Minister’s assurance that the measures will be used in truly exceptional circumstances. They have been used only twice so far, in Mid Staffordshire and Lewisham. However, if TSAs are to be used simply if a trust moves into deficit, rather than going into a process of health overview and scrutiny committees and the Independent Reconfiguration Panel, that is a matter of great concern.

[Dr Poulter]

I hope I can reassure my hon. Friend on that now, before my closing remarks. The right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) did his best to conflate routine service reconfiguration, which should be clinically led in the best interests of patients, with those in extremis measures, which have been used only twice in five years. They were used only in circumstances of extreme hospital failure when patients’ lives were at risk. There is a clear distinction. I hope my hon. Friend finds that reassuring.

[Sir Tony Baldry]

I do find that reassuring, but I have a final question that I hope my hon. Friend will address when he winds up the debate. There has to be a trigger, but what will the trigger be for these extreme circumstances? In other words, what distinguishes a proposal for hospital reconfiguration, in which local people can go to the health overview and scrutiny committee and the Independent Reconfiguration Panel, from a crisis situation, such as occurred in Mid Staffordshire and may have occurred in Lewisham? We all have local hospitals and we all need to be able to explain to our constituents how we might find ourselves in the circumstances of these short-cut situations. We really need Ministers to make it clear to the House that these powers will be used in extremis, and I hope that my hon. Friend will address that point when he winds up.

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[Heidi Alexander]

The experiences in Stafford and in Lewisham have probably been very similar. Multiple public meetings were run in a chaotic and haphazard fashion, and if I had not intervened in this particular meeting in Catford to try to calm the audience down and enable them to ask questions, I am not sure whether it would have been able to proceed.

We have heard about the quality of the consultation in Lewisham. The fact that the online consultation did not include a direct question about the closure of accident and emergency services and maternity services at Lewisham hospital beggars belief. My constituents were asked whether they agreed that acute services should be consolidated on four instead of five sites in south-east London. It is no wonder they came to me asking, “Where is the question about Lewisham A and E?” As my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Dame Joan Ruddock) said, the consultation contained no direct question about the sale of two thirds of the land. There was a question about the sale of land at the hospitals that were placed in administration, but there was no such question about Lewisham hospital. We must be under no illusion that if clause 119 had been on the statute book at the time the administrator made recommendations about Lewisham hospital, its full A and E, its full maternity service and its excellent paediatric unit would now be closing.

Many people have said to me that I am somehow against change in the NHS, but nothing could be further from the truth. We have already heard about the successful changes to stroke care in the capital. They did not come about overnight, or over 45 nights or 75 nights; they came about as a result of clear and calm consultation and communication with residents. They came about as a result of clinicians, not accountants, being in the driving seat. The public rightly care about their NHS and the local health services to which they have access. As I said on Second Reading, that is because people experience the best and the worst moment of their lives in our hospitals. It is right that they have their say in a process that is fit for purpose, but an extended and augmented TSA process, which the Government propose through clause 119, is not the right way to take decisions of such significance and which excite such public interest.

The Government have tried to spin clause 119 as some sort of clarification of existing policy. That is nonsense. It is a direct result of the Lewisham hospital case that was heard in the courts. We know that the previous Government produced guidance that said that the TSA regime should not be used as a back-door approach to reconfiguration. This is a fundamental change in policy. It removes the legal protection that currently exists for successful hospitals located adjacent to failing hospitals that have been placed into administration.

The Government also claim that such a process would be used only in exceptional circumstances, but how do we know how often it will be used in future? I press the Minister to respond to the point made by the shadow Health Secretary about whether he has had any discussions with his officials about other hospital trusts being placed into administration and about applying the unsustainable provider regime elsewhere.

[Dr Poulter]

Let me place it on the record that, as far as I am aware, there have been no discussions involving either me or my ministerial colleagues about applying the TSA regime elsewhere.

[Heidi Alexander]

That is useful. I am sure that Members are grateful to hear that from the Minister, but we know that there are many trusts in serious financial difficulties. Given the huge pressures on the NHS at the moment, this regime could be applied in many more places in the future. The truth of the matter is that the TSA regime will be used as a steamroller to force through the closure and downgrading of hospital services with limited public consultation, using a process that is set up in a way that creates public scepticism and mistrust from the word go.

The Government want to change the law to allow them to do elsewhere what the courts told them they could not do in Lewisham. As I have said already, I would not want to inflict that chaos on anyone else. It damages trust not only in NHS leaders who are meant to be leading change but in our democracy.

I wish to say a few words about new clause 16. As I have already said, I will vote for the new clause if the right hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam pushes it to a vote this evening, because it offers a limited improvement on clause 119. None the less, it raises its own set of questions. The new clause leaves clause 119 in the Bill, so it still allows an administrator appointed to a failing hospital trust to make recommendations about services provided at successful neighbouring hospitals, which are not part of the trust to which the administrator has been appointed.

As I understand it, the right hon. Gentleman’s new clause would give power to the commissioners of such services at the affected hospital outside the failing trust to have some sort of veto over whether the recommendations go any further. It suggests that if the commissioners of services at the affected hospital, such as Lewisham, agree with the changes being proposed, full public and patient consultation would kick in, consistent with the normal levels of communication and engagement that are required in full-service reconfigurations. If the local commissioners disagree with the recommendations, they can, if I understand his new clause correctly, call the process to a complete halt. I can see why that has some attractions, because it seems to provide some kind of brake on the all-encompassing powers of an administrator, and for that reason I am content to support it. However, it does not provide an entirely coherent solution to the problem that lies at the heart of clause 119.

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[Steve Baker]

I have listened with quiet astonishment as Opposition Members have suggested that the NHS previously offered meaningful accountability and public control.

In the manner in which the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) spoke to amendment 30, he viciously punched a raw and delicate bruise in Wycombe. As I indicated in my intervention, it was under the last Government that we lost A and E services, maternity services and paediatrics. Years later, all that people want is to have those services back. They want an emergency unit that is capable of accepting whoever turns up. To use the jargon, they want the treatment of undifferentiated emergency patients. The NHS should not be offering constant excuses for why that cannot be provided. God knows, we pay enough in tax and in salaries that people ought to be creative enough to figure out how to offer the treatment of undifferentiated emergency patients at local hospitals like the one in Wycombe. There is a proposal to do so, which I will return to another day,

I have found myself listening to some sort of exposition of a democratic utopia that has never existed. When considering how this has been positioned—the idea that it is about reconfiguration rather than urgent procedures when a trust is in extreme difficulty—will the Minister reassure me that the Government did not establish clinical commissioning groups and health and wellbeing boards, and the rest, just so that they could use this clause and power to override everything else they have put in place?

[Dr Poulter]

I am happy to give my hon. Friend that reassurance. We believe in locally led commissioning and in listening to patients locally. That is what devising services locally is about. This clause is not to be conflated with normal procedures for designing and arranging local hospital services. I hope that that reassures my hon. Friend and other hon. Members.

[Steve Baker]

I am extremely grateful to the Minister for that reassurance because in my constituency there is really only one story: the loss of services, and, because of the way the clause has been presented by Labour Members, people are worried about that.

It has been said that these hospitals are categorically different because they exist in a broader health economy, but that is not why they are different. Any business exists as part of a wider economy with dependencies and so on—the hon. Member for Lewisham West and Penge (Jim Dowd) suggested the example of Comet versus Currys. In private enterprise, if the administrator turned up and shut down our competitors when we failed, it would obviously be absurd, but the truth is that both sides of the House have made a positive decision to use the techniques of state socialism to provide health care. That choice has consequences, one of which is this clause.

--- Later in debate ---

We now have to wait to see if the clinical solution is affordable. If it is not, would our trust be put into administration? Our trust owes £10 million today and is forecast to owe £12 million by the end of the financial year. The people of Redditch are concerned about the future of our hospital. I ask the Minister to allay their fears today and to make it clear that Worcestershire Acute Hospitals NHS Trust is not on his radar and that the Alexandra hospital is safe in his hands and will continue to be so.

[Dr Poulter]

I know that my hon. Friend has campaigned tirelessly for her local trust and I can reassure her that there are no plans for the TSA to have any involvement in the issues that she has mentioned locally. It would be wrong and irresponsible for people to conflate those issues. There are local processes in place and they will continue.

[Karen Lumley]

One of the big successes is the creation of local commissioners. In my patch, Jonathan Wells has continually stood up for the people of Redditch in this reorganisation. Will the Minister clarify how much involvement the commissioners would have in any administration case?

Forty days is a short time indeed. As I said earlier, I agree with the principle, but I do not think that it has been thought through enough. No one would want an unsafe hospital in their patch, but we all want an NHS that treats our constituents at a local level if possible. The Minister has allayed some of my fears, and I thank him for that, but there is a great deal of concern in my constituency.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Burns]

No. I am about to conclude as I know the winding-up speeches have to begin.

In conclusion, this is an important power, and it is there to be used in very exceptional circumstances. It is factually incorrect and it will scare people to accuse any Government of using the power to reconfigure services. It will not be used for that. Reconfiguration will go through the correct processes and be based locally, with the local health economy and local people and with the input of organisations such as the health and wellbeing board. It would be foolish, as I think the previous Government agreed, not to have an emergency fall-back position to secure that. That is why we had the original power under Labour’s legislation, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is continuing that power and fine-tuning it.

[Dr Poulter]

I thank all my hon. Friends and other hon. Members for their contributions to this important debate. I shall respond to as much of what has been said as I can in the time available.

The House is being asked to consider specific changes the Government are making to the existing trust special administrator regime, which was introduced under the previous Government. I stress at the outset that the TSA regime will not be used routinely, and will only be used when all other processes at a local level to deal with the challenges of hospitals have been exhausted. The usual approach for locally led reconfigurations will remain. TSAs are for rare and extreme cases of failure. This is not a power to be used to reconfigure services routinely—we need to get that right at the outset. This is a system of last resort, and other actions will of course be taken first to address the problems of trusts in difficulty.

[Richard Fuller]

Let me make the Minister aware of a real and live example: the decision of Bedford and Milton Keynes clinical commissioning groups to look at their hospitals in an ongoing review. Will the Minister provide me with a hand-on-heart, job-on-the-line assurance that these powers will not be used in that review?

[Dr Poulter]

I can assure my hon. Friend absolutely that these are locally driven reviews of clinical services—driven by local commissioners, clinically led and absolutely nothing to do with the TSA process which we are discussing today. Any scaremongering that is taking place locally is, frankly, outrageous and to the detriment of the hard work that local professionals are doing to design the right health care services.

As I said, the TSA system is one of last resort. It is about ensuring that local solutions are initially found for trusts in difficulty. That may include support from the NHS Trust Development Authority or Monitor, as part of a special measures process, or it may involve more rigorous inspections by the CQC. Other support may include requiring the publication of action plans to tackle quality or financial problems, buddying with other trusts, or making management changes. All other such processes will have had to be exhausted before the TSA process would be necessary.

[David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)]

With 11 areas identified as having challenges to the health economy, will the Minister give reassurances that proper checks and balances are in place so that the TSA powers will be used only in isolated, limited and exceptional circumstances?

[Dr Poulter]

That is absolutely the case. It is absolutely wrong to conflate the fact—as Opposition Members are trying to do—that from time to time even good hospitals occasionally run deficits with the TSA regime. This is a power of last resort; it is not a power that is routinely used. Local measures are in place to support hospitals to get their finances in order and to ensure that where there are care quality problems, they are addressed promptly to the benefit of patients.

[Andy Burnham]

The Minister was saying that all other measures should be explored first, in particular co-operation—buddying, he said—between hospitals. If that is the case, why did the Competition Commission step in to prevent sensible collaboration between two hospitals on the south coast, Bournemouth and Poole? How is what he has just said consistent with the Health and Social Care Act 2012, which requires hospitals to compete, not to collaborate?

[Dr Poulter]

As part of our changes in the wake of the Mid Staffordshire inquiry—changes the right hon. Gentleman would be wise to heed and learn lessons from, if he should be lucky enough ever to be on the Government Benches again—we have made it clear that we need to ensure that where there are care quality failures, hospitals learn to put such problems right much more promptly than they have done in the past. That is why we put in place buddying mechanisms and why we put trusts in special measures, to deal with issues quickly and effectively to ensure that hospital services are put back on track and patients can be properly protected.

[Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)]

Does the Minister recognise that the reason why there is concern about clause 119—with due respect to the shadow Secretary of State, I would say it is misplaced concern—is that there is legitimate concern about the way routine reconfiguration mechanisms work? Time after time, consultation does not appear to work on the ground. I have some experience of that in my constituency, where the Burton hospital trust is attempting to reconfigure our services.

[Dr Poulter]

My hon. Friend makes a good point, which has been made by Government Members throughout this debate. Under the previous Government, in particular, many people felt that things were done to them with their local NHS, rather than done in the best interests of local patients. Importantly, decisions were very rarely made with clinical leadership under the previous Government. Proper patient consultation and patient engagement did not take place. I have a list with me of maternity units downgraded under Labour; it is right to say that individual reconfiguration decisions need to be looked at on their merits, but there was a long and tragic history under the previous Government of the public, patients and local clinicians not being properly engaged in the process. That is why our Government have introduced a better process whereby, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns) pointed out, decisions about local health care services under our 2012 Act are led now by clinicians through the clinical commissioning groups. We now have health and wellbeing boards, which is an important step forward in better joining up and integrating the health and care system that we all believe in, and in ensuring that democratically elected local authorities have more oversight of our health and care system. Those are important steps forward and this Government should be proud of them. They indicate that decisions should be made locally for the benefit of local people, and that is how things routinely happen.

The trust special administrator regime is not used lightly; it is used in extremis, which is why it has been used only twice in the past five years.

[Jim Dowd]

rose—

[Dr Poulter]

Let me make a little progress, because I have been generous in giving way.

Let us consider the following:

“The vast majority of trusts perform well, but in the rare instances where that is not the case, there must be transparent processes in place to deal with poor performance.”—[Official Report, 8 June 2009; Vol. 493, c. 544.]

I completely agree with those words—the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) used them when he described the purpose of the regime to this House in 2009. This is Labour’s regime, which it now tries to disown in opposition. The TSA regime is only ever used as the very last resort, and provisions in the Care Bill will introduce, importantly, a new role for the Care Quality Commission for triggering the regime when there has been a serious failure of quality; the emphasis will now be on quality, rather than merely on financial failure.

Clause 119 respects the coalition agreement that routine service changes will be locally led; it is about protecting patients and ensuring we can act rapidly and effectively in their best interests in examples of extreme failure. It may therefore be helpful if I set out some of the changes and improvements we are making to the regime under clause 119.

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

I think I know the answer to this, but the opposite has been said so many times in the past three and a quarter hours that it is worth saying it again. The Minister knows that my local foundation trust is undergoing proposals that will lead to a public consultation on reconfiguration, which is supported on clinical grounds by the commissioners. Whatever view local representatives and others take on that—I am far from sold on this at the moment—will he confirm to me, as he did to my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller), that neither he nor his administrators will be on a train to Winchester any time soon?

[Dr Poulter]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right in what he says. These are decisions, under the legislation that this Government introduced, that are being led by local commissioners and local clinicians engaging with patients; they are nothing to do with the TSA regime we are discussing today, which deals with examples of extreme failure in the NHS.

[Jim Dowd]

Will the Minister give way?

[Dr Poulter]

I do need to make some progress, as I have been generous in giving way. If hon. Members will let me make some progress, I may give way again a little later.

Clause 119 was introduced following calls to the Government by key stakeholders representing NHS providers—the Foundation Trust Network and the NHS Confederation. Like us, they recognise the experience of how the regime has operated. They know that issues of financial and clinical sustainability of health services nearly always cross organisational boundaries, and they were clear that the Labour Government’s regime needed amendments to make it effective in the spirit that the right hon. Member for Leigh intended when he created it in 2009. Let me read out again what was said in the impact assessment to the 2009 TSA regime—his regime. It states:

“NHS Trusts…are not free-floating, commercial organisations.”

It also says:

“State-owned providers are part of a wider NHS system.”

We fully agree with that, and that is what we are ensuring we take into account in the TSA regime. That is what clause 119 is about. Clause 119 would extend the remit of a TSA to make recommendations that may apply to—

[Jim Dowd]

rose—

[Andy Burnham]

rose—

[Dr Poulter]

I may give way in a few moments, but I need to make a bit of progress. The clause would extend the remit of a TSA to make recommendations that may apply to services beyond the confines of the trust in administration. The Secretary of State or, in the case of foundation trusts, Monitor, will be able to make decisions based on those wider powers. Where severe and prolonged problems exist, an administrator must be able to recommend a solution in the best interests of local patients. Only then can we resolve the situation in a sensible, holistic way and ensure safe and sustainable patient care. That is what the impact assessment said of the 2009 TSA regime, and something the Government are ensuring that we deliver, even though the previous Government failed to deliver it.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Dr Poulter]

I will take the shadow Secretary of State in preference to the hon. Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris).

[Andy Burnham]

The Minister is being generous. He has made the argument all afternoon that he is doing what I was doing; he is just using the powers that I created. That is the crux of his argument. If that is the case, why did three judges rule that this Government had broken Parliament’s original intention when they passed those powers?

[Dr Poulter]

Quite frankly, it was because the right hon. Gentleman’s legislation was not worded effectively enough—[Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. The right hon. Gentleman was listened to with courtesy. The same courtesy must be shown to the Minister.

[Dr Poulter]

I have repeatedly read out supporting evidence from the previous Government and from the impact assessment that showed that they recognised that the regime had to take into account the wider health economy. It is not my fault or the fault of hon. Members on the Government Benches that Labour’s legislation was not properly drafted, and that it did not do what it intended—

[Jim Dowd]

Will the Minister give way?

[Dr Poulter]

The right hon. Gentleman also suggested—

[Jim Dowd]

Is he deaf?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. The Minister’s state of health is not a matter to be dealt with from a sedentary position. If he is not giving way, he is not giving way.

[Dr Poulter]

I must make progress. I want to address the points made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow). I will not give way until I have made better progress. On the point made by the right hon. Gentleman—and this is important—when he put forward the legislation on the TSA, he envisaged potentially turning it into a hospital closure clause. In 2009, on Second Reading of the Health Bill, he said:

“We believe these measures will provide protection against the possibility of NHS providers continuing indefinitely.”—[Official Report, 8 June 2009; Vol. 493, c. 544.]

That would suggest that the right hon. Gentleman thought that whole organisations might be shut down or closed as a result of the TSA regime. We do not believe that that is the case. We recognise that trusts, when they severely fail, may have to change the services they deliver. We want to protect trusts from the closure that the right hon. Gentleman envisaged in his remarks. His own words indicate that Labour had a hospital closure clause in the TSA regime. The Government, however, are making it clear that this is about service change in the interest of patients when all other avenues have been exhausted, which is a good thing.

Let me turn now to new clause 16, tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam, my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George) and other hon. Members.

[Frank Dobson]

rose—

[Dr Poulter]

I will give way to the former Secretary of State in one moment, but I would like to make some progress. I have been very generous in giving way.

The Government are grateful to Members for raising these important issues, but, regretfully, we cannot accept the amendment. The amendment makes two key changes. First, it gives commissioners of other trusts affected by the recommendations of an administrator at a foundation trust the power to define essential services at those trusts. That would be cumbersome and impractical and draw the focus away from the trust in administration and undermine the need for recommendations affecting other providers to be “necessary and consequential”, which is something that my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam believes in and raised in Committee.

Secondly, protecting essential services gives the administrator their focus for the trust in administration; it is a critical part of the process. Asking commissioners at other trusts to define their essential services would incorrectly indicate an equivalence in the administrator’s role between the failed trust and other successful providers.

Clause 119 recognises the need to give other commissioners a clear role and a proper say. It already extends the existing requirement on an administrator at a foundation trust to obtain the consent for their recommendations from each commissioner of the failing trust, and also from each commissioner of any affected trust. NHS England support must be sought in cases where not all commissioners agree.

Let me be absolutely clear. Under subsections (3), (4) and (6), the commissioners who are asked to agree and draft the final TSA report already include commissioners from affected trusts. It may be hard to spot that in the clause, as it amends existing legislation.

Clause 119 also requires the administrator to consult other affected commissioners. He or she must publish a summary of the consultation responses and take them properly into account when making final recommendations. The Secretary of State or Monitor will need to be satisfied that the administrator has carried out their administration duties properly, including showing proper regard for the statutory guidance.

Commissioners of other affected trusts will therefore have every opportunity to make their views known. However, I would like to thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam for bringing the matter to our attention. The Government agree that it is important for other local commissioners to be able to protect their essential services. We will update the guidance to make it clear that the agreement of commissioners to the TSA report should include their agreement that essential services have been protected at other trusts, as well as at the failing trust, so that all local commissioners have an equal say, with NHS England arbitrating in the event of disagreement. Furthermore, I would like to invite my right hon. Friend to chair a committee of MPs and peers to consider the draft guidance and ensure that his concerns are properly addressed before the regime is used.

[Bob Stewart]

My disquiet stems from the fact that when the TSA was put into South London Healthcare NHS Trust there was no mention that it would go beyond its borders and into Lewisham. I do not think that was very clever. That is what worries me about the Government’s plans.

[Dr Poulter]

The spirit of the previous Government’s legislation was to look at the wider health economy when a trust is in extremis and has reached the point at which it is failing patients, either because of its financial failure or the direct effect that has on the quality of patient care. There then needs to be a wider look at the whole health economy. I know the Princess Royal university hospital in my hon. Friend’s constituency very well. I also know Lewisham hospital very well, having done some of my medical training there. They cannot be seen in isolation from King’s college hospital, Woolwich, Sidcup and all the other hospitals in the area, because they look after patients in that part of London as part of an integrated health and care service. When a hospital fails in that way, it has to be looked at holistically. It is a power of last resort, to be used when a trust is in extremis, not a routine power, which is why we have the TSA process set up by the previous Government.

[Paul Burstow]

I am grateful to the Minister for some of the clarifications he has given so far. When he concludes his comments on new clause 16, will he confirm that the review of the guidance that he has invited me to chair will also consider the issue of consultation to ensure that it is genuinely pervious to public opinion and other clinical opinions in the area?

[Dr Poulter]

I am happy to give my right hon. Friend that assurance. It will be for him to lead the review, and we look forward to the work he does.

New clause 16 would make a second key change: to prevent the Secretary of State or Monitor from making decisions about recommendations affecting other trusts. Instead, local commissioners would have to undertake a further process of consultation and make their own decision. The effect would be to completely undo the changes that clause 119 is seeking to make—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. If hon. Members across the Chamber wish to have private conversations, they should leave. The Minister is answering some important points and ought to be listened to.

[Dr Poulter]

It would take outside the administration process and the timetable recommendations that affect other trusts. It could mean that a complete solution for the trust in administration and local patients could not be found. As before, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam said that examining in isolation a trust that is failing significantly would be like throwing it to the wolves on its own. New clause 16 would render the strict legal timetable for the regime ineffective by significantly delaying resolution. I know that it is not his intention, but the new clause would undo the core purpose of clause 119 and the very aims of the regime, which are to put in place sustainable and safe health care services for patients when a trust has significantly failed.

[Paul Burstow]

I think I have heard the Minister tell us that there will be an equivalency between commissioners whereby they will all have to agree to changes being led by a trust special administrator, that there will be further examination of the consultation issues, and that we will make sure that the process is used rarely and exceptionally. Given his confirmation of those things, I want him to know that I am satisfied that my concerns are being addressed. On that basis, I do not intend to press my new clause, and I urge colleagues to do likewise.

[Dr Poulter]

I am very pleased that my right hon. Friend is reassured. I pay tribute to the tremendous work that he has done throughout the passage of the Bill in scrutinising and pushing the Government to ensure that we produce better, and good, legislation. I commend him for the work he has done on that.

It is important to point out that clause 119 makes a number of changes to strengthen patient, public and commissioner involvement in the process. In concluding, I shall draw out its important aspects. First, the clause would extend the public consultation period from six to eight weeks so that the public and others in the wider health economy can give their views and improve the recommendations. It would also give the administrator more time than the previous Labour Government did to produce draft recommendations, extending the period from 45 to 65 working days.

Secondly, the clause would allow a more holistic view to be taken of the wider local health system by allowing an administrator to make wider recommendations, but only as long as those recommendations are necessary for, and consequential on, primary recommendations about the failing trust.

Thirdly, the clause would widen consultation to affected trusts, their staff and commissioners. In addition—I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam for suggesting this—we are providing in amendments 11 and 12 greater public and patient representation in the regime by requiring the administrator to consult local authorities and healthwatch organisations. That will ensure that the voice of local communities is at the front and centre of the administrator’s final recommendations. This important clause makes sure that patients and local commissioners are properly consulted. Indeed, we make sure that Healthwatch is put at the heart of everything that happens. The clause also improves arrangements for the administrator in seeking the support of commissioners affected by their recommendations, as we have discussed. That means that an administrator could develop recommendations that provide a solution for the future of failing trust services, ensuring that all those affected are fully involved. That has to be the right action.

We have heard a lot from Labour Members about the trust special administrator regime. Let us remember that this was their provision and their regime. We are putting in place measures that are true to their intentions when they put this in place, so that a trust is not thrown to the wolves when it meets their circumstances of severe failure. We will make sure that we always act in the best interests of patients. The right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) is good at playing politics and good at spin. I am a doctor. I will always do what I believe is in the best interests of patients, and that is exactly what clause 119 will achieve.

[Jeremy Lefroy]

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the clause.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 16

Powers of local commissioners in relation to TSA recommendations

‘(1) In section 65DA(1) of the National Health Service Act 2006 (Chapter 5A of Part 2: Objective of trust special administration) omit “objective” and insert “objectives” and omit “is” and insert “are”.

(2) After subsection (1)(a) insert—

“(b) the continued provision of such of the services provided for the purposes of the NHS by any affected trust at such level, as the commissioners of those services determine.”.

(3) After subsection 1(b) omit “(b)” and insert “(c)”.

(4) In subsection (2) of that section after “The commissioners” insert “of the trust in special administration and any affected trust”.

(5) In subsection (4) of that section after “the commissioners” add “of the trust in special administration and any affected trust”.

(6) In subsection (9) of that section after ““commissioners” means the persons to which the trust provides services under this Act” add “and the commissioners of services at any affected trust”.

(7) In section 65F insert—

“(2E) Where the administrator is considering recommending taking action in relation to another NHS foundation trust or an NHS trust which may become an affected trust, the administrator shall engage with the commissioners of services at any such NHS foundation trust or NHS trust in order to enable those commissioners to make decisions pursuant to the matters set out in section 65DA.”.

(8) In section 651(1)—

(a) after “action which the administrator recommends that the Secretary of State” insert “or the commissioners of any affected trust“; and

(b) after “should take in relation to the trust” insert “or any affected trust”.

(9) In section 65K add—

“(3) Where the final report contains recommendations for changes to be made to services provided by an affected trust, the commissioners of services at that affected trust shall make a decision within 20 working days whether they wish to undertake public and patient involvement regarding all or any of the recommendations and, if they are so minded, shall comply with any arrangements for patient and public involvement agreed by those commissioners under this Act before making any final decision concerning the said recommendations.”.

(10) In section 65KA add—

“(7) Where the final report contains recommendations for changes to be made to services provided by an affected trust, the commissioners of those services shall make a decision within 20 working days whether they wish to undertake public and patient involvement regarding all or any of the recommendations and, if they are so minded, shall comply with any arrangements for patient and public involvement agreed by those commissioners under this Act before making any final decision concerning the said recommendations.”.

(11) In section 65KB(1)(d) after “that” insert “to the extent that the report recommends action in relation to the trust in administration”.

(12) In section 65KB(2)(a) after “decision” insert “in relation to any recommendations made the in relation to the trust in administration”.

(13) In section 65O add—

“(4) In this chapter “affected trust” means—

(a) where the trust in question is an NHS trust, another NHS trust, or an NHS foundation trust, which provides goods or services under this Act that would be affected by the action recommended in the draft report; and

(b) where the trust in question is an NHS foundation trust, another NHS foundation trust, or an NHS trust, which provides services under this Act that would be affected by the action recommended in the draft report.

(14) In section 13Q(4) at the end insert “save to the extent required by section 65K(3) or 65KA(7)”.

(15) In section 14Z2(7) at the end insert “save to the extent required by section 65K(3) or 65KA(7)”.

(16) In section 242(6)(b) at the end insert “save to the extent required by section 65K(3) or 65KA(7)”.’. —(Mr Jamie Reed.)

This Clause ensures that all commissioners of services affected by a trust special administrator’s report have the right to define local specified services; clarifies that, save for the trust in administration, local commissioners remain the decision makers for services they commission; and restores public engagement for changes other than for a trust in administration.

Brought up, and read the First time.

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.

Care Bill [Lords]

Dan Poulter Excerpts

Monday 10th March 2014 Commons Chamber

Brought up, and read the First time.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Dr Daniel Poulter)]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

[Mr Speaker]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment (a) to Government new clause 34, in subsection (3), after ‘of’, insert ‘improving’.

Amendment (b) to Government new clause 34, in subsection (3), after ‘adult social care’, insert

‘; and if it has satisfied itself that the recipient is competent to handle the data in compliance with all statutory duties and to respect and promote the privacy of recipients of health services and adult social care.”.’.

New clause 25—Misuse of data provided by the Health and Social Care Information Centre: offence—

‘(1) A person or entity commits an offence if they misuse, or negligently allow the misuse of information they have requested and received from the Health and Social Care Information Centre.

(2) “Misuse” means—

(a) using information in a way that violates the agreement with the Health and Social Care Information Centre;

(b) using information in a way that does not violate the agreement with the Health and Social Care Information Centre, but that gives rise to use that is outside the agreed limits of use; or

(c) using information supplied by the Health and Social Care Information Centre in such a way as to allow or enable individual patients to be identified by a third party.

(3) A person who is guilty of an offence under subsection (1) is liable—

(a) on summary conviction, to an unlimited fine;

(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for not more than two years or a fine, or both.

(4) An entity who is guilty of an offence under subsection (1)—

(a) is liable to an unlimited fine; and

(b) must disclose the conviction on all future applications to access data from the Health and Social Care Information Centre.’.

Government amendment 8.

Amendment 29, in clause 116, page 100, line 29, after ‘Authority’, insert

‘and the Secretary of State’.

Government amendments 17, 18, 15 and 16.

[Dr Poulter]

The Government are fully committed to the care.data programme and to the core principles that underpin its use, which are to present and promote transparency in the quality of health and care services to patients and the public, while protecting their privacy and confidentiality; to promote health and care research to help us to understand how to fight disease, cure illness and improve care; and to better integrate health and care services by using the data and information to understand what good, joined-up and integrated care looks like.

--- Later in debate ---

[Grahame M. Morris]

Will the Minister give way?

[Dr Poulter]

I have not said anything controversial yet, so if the hon. Gentleman will let me make some progress, I will happily give way later.

To realise the huge potential of health care data, patients and professionals must have absolute trust in the way that the data will be protected and used, together with an understanding of why collecting the data on such a scale is important. I absolutely understand that many people have concerns about how the process might work, but I am confident that the Government amendments will bring further reassurance to the House about the care.data programme.

The Government fully support NHS England’s decision to delay the start of the care.data programme so that more work can be done to build understanding and confidence. NHS England will be leading that work. In parallel, having listened to key stakeholders and to discussions in this place, the Government have brought forward a package of measures, including amendments to the Bill, to respond to concerns and to give the public greater clarity and reassurance that their data are safe.

The Health and Social Care Act 2012, which established the Health and Social Care Information Centre, introduced a raft of safeguards to balance the huge benefits that linking health and care data can bring. That offered people greater protection than was previously available. It is worth highlighting some sections of the 2012 Act as examples of that.

Under section 260, the Health and Social Care Information Centre must not publish the information that it obtains in a form that would enable an individual, other than a provider of care, to be identified. Similarly, under section 261, the HSCIC cannot disseminate share data that could be used to identify an individual, other than a provider of care, except when there is another legal basis for doing so, which could happen in the event of a civil emergency or public health emergency, such as a flu pandemic. Under section 263, the HSCIC must publish a code of practice that makes it clear how it and others should handle confidential data. Under section 264, the HSCIC must be open and transparent about the data it obtains by publishing a register with descriptions of the information. Indeed, the HSCIC is currently working to ensure that it is transparent about all the data it has released to others.

Moreover, the Government have made the commitment that if someone has concerns about data being used in this way, they can ask their general practice to note their objection and opt out of the system. Following that, no identifiable data about them will flow from their GP record to the HSCIC. Directions to the HSCIC under section 254 of the 2012 Act—separate from the amendments that the House is considering—will ensure that that commitment to patients has legal force.

We are going further than that. Having listened to key stakeholders and to discussions in Parliament, we have a further package of measures that, in parallel with NHS England’s further engagement activity, will respond to the concerns that we have heard and give the public additional reassurance that their data are safe. Of course, aggregated and anonymised data, which cannot be used to identify any individual person, should and will be made generally available. Indeed, a great deal of research relies on data of this type, where researchers do not need to see any data at the individual person level. Such aggregated and anonymous data are available now, and were available previously through the predecessor body to the HSCIC.

New clause 34 sets out a number of changes to the 2012 Act which, taken together, clarify when the HSCIC can and cannot release data. The new clause expressly prevents the HSCIC from using its general dissemination power where there is not a clear health care, adult social care or health promotion purpose—for example, for commercial insurance purposes. I am happy to confirm that the new clause enables anonymised information to be disseminated under the HSCIC’s general dissemination power for a wide range of health and care-related purposes, including for commissioning for a wide range of public health purposes and for research relating to health and care services such as the epidemiological research that is needed at the earliest stages of developing new treatments.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Can the Minister reassure us that there will be no possibility of private companies obtaining the data and using them for their own purposes, instead of their being used for their original purposes in accordance with NHS data protection regulations?

[Dr Poulter]

I hope that I have already given the hon. Gentleman some reassurance that the data will have to be used for the benefit of the health and care service, or for the purposes of public health. They are not to be used for insurance purposes, for example. I will go on to outline some of the safeguards involved.

[Barbara Keeley]

Would the Minister like to comment on an announcement made at the launch of the MedRed BT health cloud—a cloud data system that is using our hospital episode statistics data—in the United States? At the launch, it was stated:

“People are using foreign data because it’s available. The UK made some gutsy decisions about data liberation. There’s political risk associated and they have a more tolerant climate over there.”

Will the Minister comment on the fact that we apparently have such a tolerant climate that MedRed and BT are now charging for access to our data on that cloud system in the United States?

[Dr Poulter]

I am not going to be drawn into commenting on an American system. The point is that there are strong safeguards under the 2012 Act to ensure that confidential data can be used only for the benefit of the health and care system. Of course, data that do not identify patients need to be used in a transparent way that can help to drive up care and services.

[Barbara Keeley]

rose—

[Dr Poulter]

I have been generous in giving way to the hon. Lady; I hope that she will let me address her point. It is important that we have data that are open and transparent and that are used to expose the quality of care that is available from different health care providers. We are one year on from the Francis inquiry, and we need open and transparent data in order to understand and compare the quality of care services in hospitals and in different NHS health and care providers. This is about helping us to recognise what good care looks like, so that we can extend it throughout the system. It is also about exposing the few examples of bad care in an open and transparent way. If we had—

[Barbara Keeley]

rose—

[Grahame M. Morris]

rose—

[Dr Poulter]

I am not going to give way. I am still addressing the hon. Lady’s point, and I am not saying anything controversial. If we had had better, more joined-up data that could have been used in a more transparent way beforehand, we might have been able to head off the events that we saw at Mid Staffs much earlier. This is about protecting patients and the public, and about using population-level data in an open and transparent way. Under the safeguards that we are introducing in the new clause, data will not be used for commercial insurance purposes. Let me give that reassurance.

[Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab)]

Where in the new clause does it say that? Nowhere does it say that the data cannot be passed to private health insurance companies. Proposed new subsection 1A states that such information could be passed on

“for the purposes of…the provision of health care or adult social care”.

This is a very wide provision, and I see no clarity in it that delivers on the commitment that the Minister is giving to the House.

[Dr Poulter]

Hopefully, if I am allowed to make some progress and address the points that have been raised, I will give further reassurances a little later. It would be useful—[Interruption.] I will answer the question a little later, so there is no point in heckling or being abusive. If the right hon. Gentleman will wait, I will talk him through the Government’s amendments so that he can gain a better understanding —

[Grahame M. Morris]

Will the Minister give way?

[Dr Poulter]

No, I will not.

[Grahame M. Morris]

Are you afraid?

[Dr Poulter]

No, I am not afraid to give way. The hon. Gentleman should sit down, because he often has quite enough to say, and it is not always a very valuable contribution. In this context, he may do well to listen to some of the purposes of the amendments. As I have already outlined, there are strong safeguards set out in the 2012 Act on how data can be used. Data can be used only for the benefit of the health and care system. In order to reassure the public, we have tabled amendments to clarify further how data may be used.

Speaking to a great many people in recent days, as well as considering amendments tabled by other Members, has prompted the Government to re-table the new clause in order to clarify that these kinds of data may also be disseminated for other wider public health purposes, such as research into environmental factors associated with asthma, or for healthy eating. We have ensured that those other kinds of research can benefit from the data by changing the wording in the new clause to make it clear that information may be disseminated for the purposes of

“the provision of health care or adult social care”

or “the promotion of health”. I am sure that the House will agree that it is essential that that valuable data resource is available to support a broad range of health research.

New clause 34 clarifies that in disseminating information, and indeed in carrying out any of its functions, the Health and Social Care Information Centre must have regard to the need to promote and respect the privacy of those receiving health services and adult social care in England. It also requires the HSCIC to take into account advice from the advisory committee that the Health Research Authority is required to appoint under paragraph 8 of schedule 7 to the Bill. The advice from that committee, known as the confidentiality advisory group, will provide a new level of independent scrutiny of the HSCIC’s decisions to publish or disseminate information.

Amendment 17 would also enable the confidentiality advisory group to advise the HSCIC on the exercise of functions conferred in regulations under section 251 of the National Health Service Act 2006, or more generally on decisions to disseminate information that could be used to identify individual patients. For example, when new regulations are made under section 251 of the 2006 Act that confer functions on the HSCIC, the confidentiality advisory group could advise the HSCIC on proposals to release data. New clause 34 requires the HSCIC to have regard to that external advice on its exercise of any function under the 2012 Act of publishing or otherwise disseminating information.

Amendment 18 gives the Secretary of State regulation-making powers to set out the specific criteria that the confidentiality advisory group will be required to take into account in giving advice to the Secretary of State, the Health Research Authority or the HSCIC in carrying out their duties. That provision is intended to enable regulations which would require that the confidentiality advisory group considers: that the purpose for which the data will be used should be in the public interest and for the provision of health and care services; that any approved processing must respect and promote the privacy of patients and care service users; that the purpose cannot be achieved using suitably anonymised data, rather than identifiable data; that it is not reasonably possible to gain explicit patient consent to achieve that purpose; and that the applicant requesting the data has not misused those kinds of data in the past.

That last criterion would effectively introduce a new “one strike and you’re out” deterrent. Potentially, for some organisations, the risk of no longer being able to access those kinds of data may prove a more effective sanction than the current maximum monetary penalty of £500,000 that can be imposed under the Data Protection Act 1998. Taken together, those measures provide an additional level of scrutiny and assurance to the processes of the HSCIC in publishing or disseminating information. The Government’s amendments—new clause 34 and amendments 17 and 18—provide robust assurance that those kinds of data cannot be disseminated for purposes such as commercial insurance or for assessing an individual’s mortgage application.

[Andy Burnham]

Before the Minister sits down, I would be very appreciative if he could direct me to the precise part of new clause 34 that prevents a private health insurance company accessing data.

[Dr Poulter]

It is clear that the information can be used only for the benefit of the health and care service or for the purposes of promoting health. It is about benefits to the NHS or to the health and care system. That is also what the 2012 Act identifies regarding provision of data. Let us not forget that we had to put safeguards in place because at no point did the previous Government place any restrictions on the use of data. Under the previous Government’s regulations, before this Government came to power, there was greater potential for abuse of the system. Although I am sure the previous Government would not have intended data to be used by private health care companies for insurance purposes or by others, less rigid safeguards were in place to prevent that from happening.

This Government, both with the amendments and the 2012 Act, have clearly stipulated that the information can be used only for the benefit of the health and care system or the health service. That is very clear and the previous Government never put such a provision in place. This Government have also given patients an opt-out in the use of data—something the previous Government never properly put in place. We have introduced good provisions about protecting confidentiality and using information in the NHS in a responsible manner. If the previous Government had been concerned about the use of data, they should have put in place more robust safeguards when they were in power, but they did not.

[Barbara Keeley]

Will the Minister give way?

[Dr Poulter]

No, the hon. Lady has had many interventions; I have been very generous—[Interruption.] I know she does not like hearing about Labour’s record in government on these issues, but I am afraid she needs to. This Government are putting in place safeguards to protect patient confidentiality. The previous Government failed on that agenda, and I am proud that we are able to table these amendments, which will lead to greater reassurance.

The amendments also help to clarify how data can be disseminated to support research for health and care commissioning, health and public health purposes, medical purposes, or other purposes relating to the provision of health care, adult social care or the promotion of health.

Government amendment 8 relates to the remit of the Health Research Authority. It has always been our intention that the HRA’s functions relate to health research and adult social care research, and the amendment clarifies that remit. It makes explicit that the HRA’s functions do not generally extend to research that relates to children’s social care, if that research is solely for the purposes of children’s social care. We must recognise that research may take place across the boundaries between health or adult social care and children’s social care, and the amendment will not inhibit such research. Although the HRA’s functions will not generally extend to children’s social care, the research ethics committees that the HRA establishes or recognises under clauses 113 and 114 will be able to consider children’s social care research in the round when considering a study that also involves health research or adult social care research.

A lot of research crosses health and social care, and some of it involves children. Where such research includes health elements, it already comes to the HRA special health authority for ethical consideration. Many university ethics committees accept HRA ethics committee approval and do not require separate approval by their own ethics committees. That will continue when the HRA becomes a non-departmental public body.

Paragraph 12(5) of schedule 7 gives the HRA a general power to do anything that appears to be necessary or desirable for the purposes of, or in connection with, the exercise of its functions. That power means that HRA can, if it feels it necessary or desirable, publish guidance that relates to children’s social care research where there is also an adult social care element or a health element that falls within the HRA’s remit.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Speaker]

The Minister is certainly in order and there is a continuation of Report stage tomorrow. I am sure he will want to be sensitive to the fact that other Members wish to contribute.

[Dr Poulter]

Indeed, Mr Speaker, and I hope that other Members will also be sensitive to that. The more interventions I take, the less opportunities there are for Members to speak. I have been very generous. I have taken interventions on a number of occasions from those on the shadow Front Bench, and from the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) and others. I have been generous with my time, but I want to preserve time for other Members to contribute to the debate, as I see you are keen for me to do, Mr Speaker.

Although the HRA amendments are important in ensuring that its remit is clearly and accurately defined, it will be able to work with those with an interest in children’s social care research when research crosses boundaries, to seek consistency in standards and to avoid unnecessary duplication.

Government amendments 15 and 16 are minor and technical. Amendment 15 is consequential to the addition of provisions on the better care fund—part 4—in Committee. It ensures that provisions on commencement cover the better care fund. Amendment 16 removes the privilege amendment inserted in the other place in accordance with the Commons’ sole privilege to deal with monetary matters.

The Government’s proposals ensure that we correct the difficulties we inherited from the previous Government in preserving confidential patient data. They ensure that we have in place a system in which NHS and care data must be used for the benefit of the health and care system and for public health purposes. They put us in a much better place to ensure that we enhance transparency and better use information to benefit patients. They ensure that we have a better basis on which to understand the basis of disease. If in the first place we had had the Health and Social Care Information Centre and the benefits we know will come from care.data, we would have been able to deal with and better combat many diseases while protecting patient confidentiality. We would have understood much more quickly the dangers of thalidomide and other drugs that were harmful to babies in utero. We would have been in a much better place to expose those examples of poor care, such as Mid Staffs; to develop national frameworks for treating diseases such as chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and heart disease; and to understand what good care looks like in the treatment of those conditions by collecting data in a fundamentally better and joined-up way.

The Health and Social Care Information Centre will, for the first time, provide us with a repository for joined-up, integrated data across health and care. Hon. Members often rightly talk of integrated care, and of the benefits of joining up health and care. Unless we have the data collected to understand what good integrated care looks like, and unless we understand what measures of integration are right, we will not be able properly to inform the debate on delivering integrated care or break down the silos that have sometimes existed to the detriment of patients across the health and care system. I hope hon. Members on both sides of the House can support that. I hope they decently recognise that this Government have put in place not just a patient opt-out if they do not want their data to be shared, but strong safeguards—much stronger safeguards than the previous Government —to protect patient confidentiality.

[Grahame M. Morris]

In principle, I support the utilisation of truly anonymised patient data sharing for the purposes of improving public health, but I take issue with a number of the Minister’s points, not least in relation to new clause 25, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Copeland (Mr Reed). Accountability is important. If the Minister and the Government are serious about addressing the public’s concern, they would ensure that the Secretary of State and Ministers are responsible rather than an unelected quango. Frankly, the Minister’s assurances at the Dispatch Box this evening, and those given to the Health Committee just a week or two ago, need to be in the Bill, so that there is a level of accountability and some comeback.

When we debated patient data sharing in Committee and, more recently, in Westminster Hall, my impression was that Ministers have tended to conflate legitimate patient privacy concerns, which are shared by hon. Members and members of the public, with the general lack of support for the utilisation of patient data for further research. They are mistaken, because right hon. and hon. Members are more or less unanimous in supporting any move that can lead to better research, improved care and increased safety.

Francis Report

Dan Poulter Excerpts

Wednesday 5th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Barbara Keeley]

Indeed, and our most recent inquiries in the Health Committee are about mental health issues. There is a series of issues that need to be looked at. It is rare in a health debate for me not to mention carers. We need to be realistic about the fact that we are now putting a huge amount of pressure on those carers. Removing social care packages will affect our local hospital, but it will also affect those family members, because in the end who is the person who cares? It is the family member to whom the role falls.

To conclude the point about staffing issues in A and E, we found in our earlier inquiry that fewer than one in five emergency departments were able to provide consultant cover for 16 hours a day during the working week, and the figure is lower at weekends. The whole issue of mortality rates is very much linked to that, and we cannot ignore it. We must keep focusing on the problem with recruitment and the lack of consultant cover.

My right hon. Friend the shadow Health Secretary referred to the warnings by the president of the College of Emergency Medicine. During the time when the college was warning about these issues, Ministers were tied up in knots by the challenges of reorganisation. That is key. Ministers have insisted that they are acting now, but it is clear that those warnings from the CEM in 2010 did not get enough attention until recently. The staffing situation can hardly improve when so few higher trainee posts in emergency medicine are being filled. In the latest recruitment round, 156 out of 193 higher trainee emergency medicine posts went unfilled.

My final point is about the difficulties caused by the cost of the NHS reorganisation reforms. In the past few months the spotlight has fallen on unnecessary spending and waste. We all should be concerned about that. We know that emergency departments are spending £120 million a year on locums, and this could be getting worse. The Health Committee has also recently focused on redundancy costs, which have absorbed £1.4 billion of NHS funding since 2010, with £435 million attributed just to restructuring costs. The scandal of the scale of redundancy payments to NHS staff was made worse when we found out that such a revolving door was in operation. The Health Committee was told that of 19,100 people made redundant by the NHS, 3,200 were subsequently rehired by the NHS, including 2,500 rehired within a year and more than 400 rehired within 28 days. There were reports of payments of £605,000 made to an NHS executive whose husband also received a £345,000 pay-off, with both reported to have been subsequently rehired elsewhere in the NHS. That is a scandal. I know that the Minister said it would not happen again, but that is £1 million that could have been spent on patient care.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Dr Daniel Poulter)]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Barbara Keeley]

I would prefer not to. That money could and should have been spent on improving staffing, particularly nursing staffing. Those patients and family members who have been let down by NHS failures, of which we have heard innumerable examples, deserve to know that everything possible is being done to avoid such failures in future.

Of all the things I have talked about, safe staffing is crucial, as is transparency and staffing ratios. We increasingly have to take on board the fact that there is a funding gap in both the NHS and social care. Indeed, the chair of the British Medical Association said in his new year statement that the funding gap in the NHS is so bad that if the NHS was a country, it would not have even have a credit rating. That is what we are facing.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Dr Daniel Poulter)]

The publication of the Francis report was an incredibly humbling day for our national health service. It was humbling not just for those of us in this place who care about our NHS, but for the many staff who work tirelessly to look after patients and for everybody involved in looking after people as part of our health and care system.

The central plank of the report highlighted the fact that a culture had developed at Mid Staffordshire that was not in the best interests of patients. Targets and bureaucracy had got in the way of delivering high-quality care, and far too often the management of the trust did not listen to the concerns of patients or to the sometimes valid concerns of front-line members of staff.

Robert Francis made a number of recommendations in his report. The Government accepted the principles of the report and we have made great progress in implementing many of the proposals, which I will come on to later.

It is important that all parts of our health and care system learn lessons from things that have gone wrong in our health service. Front-line staff need to learn lessons where appropriate and managers need to learn to listen and respond to the concerns of front-line staff. We need to create a culture that is open and learn how to put things right in the future in order to improve patient care. That is what good health care is about, whether someone works on the front line of the service or whether they are involved as a commissioner, a manager or a Minister.

There have been many good contributions to the debate and I will do my best to touch on as many of them as I can in the time available. In particular, there has been strong advocacy for the local NHS. I pay particular tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) for his work and tireless advocacy over many years—including before he became an MP and certainly during his time in this place—on behalf of his local patients and the local hospital and staff who look after them in Mid Staffordshire. Without his long-standing efforts and those of my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash), we would not be where we are today and that part of the world would be less better represented. Importantly, they are the people who have asked consistently the difficult questions and allowed us to get to our current position of not just tackling poor care at Mid Staffordshire and putting right the challenges that that has thrown up, but looking at how we can improve pockets of bad care elsewhere in our health and care system.

Most hon. Members have focused on two particular themes, the first of which is the need to learn lessons from the Francis inquiry into what happened at Mid Staffs, for the benefit of the wider health and care system. We heard some very good speeches, particularly from the right hon. Member for Rother Valley (Kevin Barron), my right hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry) and my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley). They discussed the broader lessons that can be learned and the importance of an open culture, of supporting clinical leadership and of recognising that perhaps staff are the best advocates of what good-quality patient care looks like in our health system.

In his constructive contribution, my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Mr Burley) noted that the challenges and difficulties faced in Mid Staffordshire arose because the management in particular were blinded by targets, financial incentives and drivers, and lost sight completely of what matters most in a hospital at all times, which is delivering high-quality, good patient care. The biggest lesson we can learn, as my hon. Friend made clear, is that we need always to make sure that the delivery of high-quality care is the first and only driver of what happens on the ward. It should never be about meeting a financial target. Of course, the two are not always mutually exclusive, but in this case it is very clear that things went very badly wrong at that trust.

As was pointed out by the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall), a significant speech was made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow), who talked about the importance of parity of esteem between mental health and physical health. He did a lot in his time in government, and he has always been a keen advocate of that. I know that he is very proud, as the Government are, that the 2012 Act has for the first time enshrined in law genuine parity of esteem between physical health and mental health. That was touched on by the Francis report, and the Government can be proud of doing that. As he will know, we have also invested £450 million in improving access to treatment in mental health services. I know that he took that forward in government, and he can be very proud of that record.

[Paul Burstow]

Through the Minister, may I pose a question to my hon. Friend the Minister of State who has responsibility for care services? He told us that Sir David Nicholson had issued a clarification about area teams not doing enough to deliver parity of esteem, but that has not materially changed how the finances are arranged, with money being taken away from mental health to pay for Francis delivery in acute care. Will that be addressed?

[Dr Poulter]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that the first step in addressing financial disincentives for mental health, which have been in the system for many years—in fact, for decades—was to establish parity of esteem in law. He helped to achieve what for the first time has been done under this Government. The next step is of course to make sure that other measures are in place to encourage and incentivise the system to spend money appropriately. Members on both sides of the House agree that we should take pressure off acute services, and nowhere is that more important than in mental health. It is important to invest in improving access to psychological therapies and talking therapies to support people, and to put in place early intervention for those with mental health problems. That is quite important, so the Government are investing money in it.

It is also important to collect proper data on mental health for the first time. For many years, data have not been collected effectively to ensure that we know what good mental services look like, but the Government will make sure that we can deliver that.

[Andy Burnham]

I thoroughly agree with the Minister about collecting data on mental health so that we can make proper judgments about the quality of services, but why has the Department of Health scrapped the annual survey of expenditure on adult mental health services?

[Dr Poulter]

It is very difficult for me to stand at the Dispatch Box and take any lessons from the right hon. Gentleman and the previous Government on mental health issues. Only this Government have taken serious steps to improve parity of esteem and enshrine it in law, and only this Government are investing in mental health on the ground, with £450 million that is particularly focused on talking therapies. If the previous Government had any interest in mental health, they had 13 years to make investments and to improve data collection to drive better commissioning, but they took no steps towards doing that, and I am afraid that their record on mental health was abysmal and very poor. Unfortunately, patients paid the price for that.

We are very proud of our record on mental health, but it will take several years to turn around the fact that there was no parity of esteem in the past. Investment is now going in on the ground and things are being put in better order. My right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam played his part in that, and the 2012 Act was a huge step forward in delivering those improvements.

I will try not to get drawn away from the topic of the Francis inquiry, Mr Deputy Speaker—we are talking about the broader health and care service—but I mentioned mental health, which we can be proud of, because it was mentioned by Francis in his report.

It is also important to talk about some of the wider lessons that can be drawn from the Francis inquiry. The right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) and my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) spoke particularly about the need, apolitically, to make sure that the whole of the United Kingdom draws such lessons. I have had very productive meetings with counterparts in Scotland, and Wales can also learn lessons about the importance of transparency and openness, and about recognising potential areas of poor care.

I hope that shadow Ministers will take up those matters with their counterparts in Wales, because such a situation can only be to the detriment of patients there. That is not a political point, but one about good care. It is important for us to deliver that in the system at the moment. It is also important because English patients are treated in Welsh hospitals. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is very excited about that point, which is why he is a very strong advocate of the needs of English patients and why he takes a particular and important interest in what happens in Wales, quite rightly drawing comparisons between the two systems.

Robert Francis found, as we have discussed, that individuals and organisations at every level of our health service let down the patients and families whom they were there to care for and protect. That was a systemic failure on the part of everyone concerned and cultural change was needed throughout the system. To prevent the same thing from ever happening again, the Government are changing the culture by requiring transparency and openness, by empowering staff and supporting strong leadership, and by embedding the patient voice and listening when something goes wrong.

[Joan Walley]

I have listened carefully to the Minister’s response to the various contributions that have been made throughout the debate since 1.15 pm. I hope that he will respond to the points that I made about the current situation in Mid Staffordshire and north Staffordshire before he goes on to the generalities of the Francis report. Does he accept that it was a bombshell when we heard last Wednesday that the recommendations of the trust special administrator had not been accepted in full? We are in a state of limbo. Will he tell the House what is the state of play of arrangements in north Staffordshire and Stafford? We need to know that and cannot deal with the uncertainty.

[Dr Poulter]

Again, I will not deviate from the general theme of the debate and try your patience, Mr Deputy Speaker. The recommendation of the trust special administrator was that consultant-led services were to be transferred away from Stafford and that there would be a midwife-led unit for Stafford. I am sure that Members on both sides of the House are great proponents of midwife-led units and of increasing the choice that is available. The Secretary of State has made it clear that he accepts the TSA recommendations in full and that local commissioners will have to do a health economy review to assess whether capacity is available elsewhere, before services are moved in the way that was envisaged by the TSA. The Secretary of State has asked NHS England to work with local commissioners to identify whether consultant-led obstetrics could be safely sustained at Stafford hospital. That only happened last week. We will update the House in due course and perhaps statements will be made by NHS England.

[Joan Walley]

rose—

[Dr Poulter]

I have given a very helpful reply to the hon. Lady, but I will give way once more.

[Joan Walley]

I say to the Minister and the Secretary of State that the use of the phrase “in due course” causes great concern. The new arrangements need to be in place in September 2014. Any delay to the acceptance in full of the recommendations in the TSA report will cause great uncertainty. The Government need to show that they are doing what the Francis report recommended and leading by example. Will they do that in the case of north Staffordshire and Mid-Staffordshire?

[Dr Poulter]

We are leading by example. As I outlined, the Secretary of State has accepted the TSA recommendation in full. A process is now under way involving NHS England and local commissioners. That was initiated last week. It is important that those conversations happen and that an update is brought forward in a timely manner. That is the right thing to do. It is not appropriate to rush decisions and processes because of a political agenda, rather than an agenda of benefiting the local patients and women concerned. I am concerned as a doctor and as a Minister that we must do the best thing by patients. Rushed decisions are not always the best thing for patients, because conversations need to happen between local commissioners and NHS England. I hope that the hon. Lady will be a little patient, because I am sure that the right decision will be made in due course.

There are three key areas in which the Government have taken forward the recommendations of the Francis inquiry: encouraging a culture of transparency and openness in the health care system; empowering front-line staff and encouraging good leadership in the NHS; and putting the patient at the heart of everything that the NHS does. As we have discussed, the patient was not at the heart of everything that was done at Mid Staffordshire for a period. That is why we have to learn the lessons and ensure, as best we can, that that cannot happen again.

On transparency and openness, it is important to highlight how we have already delivered on the recommendations of Robert Francis’s report. The CQC has appointed three chief inspectors for hospitals, social care and general practice who will ensure not only that the organisation is complying with the law, but that the culture of the organisation promotes the benefits of openness and transparency. Importantly, we now have clinically led inspections for the first time, which means that people who really understand what good care looks like will be in charge of the inspection process. That clinical leadership in the inspection process and at the heart of what the CQC does has to be of benefit to patients, and the Government are proud that we have delivered that.

We have also introduced a new statutory duty of candour on providers, which will come into force this year. It will ensure that patients are given the truth when things go wrong and that honesty and transparency are the norm in every organisation.

[Kevin Barron]

rose—

[Dr Poulter]

The right hon. Gentleman might wish to intervene in a moment, but first I will respond to his good points on the importance of the duty of candour. There is some disagreement between us, because he said that there should be a duty on individuals. He will be aware from his time at the General Medical Council that there is already a duty on professionals to act in the best interests of patients and raise any concerns about the quality of care. As a body, the GMC has learned lessons from Mid Staffordshire and reviewed its processes, but it is important to recognise that many front-line professionals at Mid Staffordshire tried to raise concerns. The culture at the trust was such that those in management positions did not always listen to them. If we want to support whistleblowers and people’s ability to speak out freely for the benefit of patients, that has to be done at organisational level. Health care professionals are already under a duty through their professional obligations, which I hope reassures the right hon. Gentleman.

The right hon. Gentleman has been in the House for many years and will remember that problems of people not being able to speak out freely in their organisations date back to the Bristol heart inquiry. Professor Kennedy, who oversaw that inquiry, noted that it was the cultural problem in that hospital provider that prevented people from speaking out. The problem was not that people were not prepared to speak out—they recognised their professional obligations; it was that there was a wish at a senior level not to recognise problems. That is what we need to tackle. We are now almost 15 years on from the Kennedy inquiry into Bristol—I was a law student at Bristol university at the time—and the NHS has perhaps not learned the lessons that it needs to. I am sure that putting a duty of candour on to NHS organisations will begin to get us where we need to be.

[Kevin Barron]

Will the Minister consider what I said about how an independent statutory commissioner could examine complaints about patients’ care, as happens in New Zealand? Will he get back to me about whether he thinks that is a good idea? The people who work in the institutions that he is talking about have no faith that anything can be changed.

[Dr Poulter]

I will talk about complaints a little later, but the right hon. Gentleman has made some important points. When we consider how to improve the delivery of care in our health service, it is important that we examine international comparisons. The system in New Zealand includes a different form of compensation, and perhaps that is partly why it has a more open culture—there could be many other factors. It is acknowledged much earlier in the process that something has gone wrong, and there is a genuine attempt to explain the situation to the family and say sorry. That is what good health care is all about.

No matter how good, well trained and dedicated staff are, things will sometimes go wrong in a health service. When they do, it is important that we are open and honest with patients and that we do our best to put things right if we can, or explain and apologise if we cannot. That is why we believe that the duty of candour needs to exist at organisational level. Of course, I am happy to write to the right hon. Gentleman, or meet him if he would like to talk through some of the issues that he raised today. He makes good points, and I know that he does so on a completely apolitical basis because he has the best interests of the health service at heart. We might disagree on other issues, but on this one it is worth having a meeting to discuss his views further.

Subject to the passage of the Care Bill, a new criminal offence will be introduced to penalise providers who give false or misleading information where that information is required to comply with statutory or other legal obligations. It means that those directors or other senior individuals, including managers, who consent to, connive in, or are negligent regarding an offence committed by the provider could be subject on conviction to unlimited fines or even custodial sentences. We must ensure that managers and those running the health and care service in a health care provider provide information in an honest and transparent way that is always in the best interests of patients.

Importantly, we are introducing through the Care Bill a single failure regime to ensure that failure is not only about the financial sustainability of the trust, but about whether a health care provider is providing good care, and the quality of that care. One problem in the past with the trust special administration regime has been that it is rarely used. When it is used, however, it is important to ensure that it is there to protect patients. Often in the past it was used only in a way that focused on financial failure. One important lesson to learn from Mid Staffs is that there should be a failure regime that also considers quality of care. Hospitals are not just about good accounts; they are primarily about delivering good care, which is why we need a single failure regime. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has been a tremendous advocate for the importance of quality of care in trust, and he should be commended for that. Thanks to him, we are now ensuring that we improve the TSA regime in that way.

[Mr Jenkin]

The Minister is outlining the legislative and regulatory changes that arise from the Francis report, but does he agree with the Health Committee, which attaches far more importance to the leadership academy mentioned by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State? Is not the quality of leadership much more important to the day-to-day care that is delivered throughout the health service, and will the Minister say a bit more about that?

[Dr Poulter]

I am not sure whether my hon. Friend has seen my brief, but that was exactly the point I was coming to. He is absolutely right and he highlighted the issue earlier in a strong contribution to the debate. It is important to empower front-line staff to be advocates for patient care and to take leadership roles in hospitals. Clinical leadership is at the core of everything that needs to be done, and we must promote strong leadership throughout a health care organisation, and throughout the sector.

We amended the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act 2013 so that a person has the right to expect their employer to take reasonable steps to prevent them from suffering detriment from a co-worker as a result of blowing the whistle. That has supported clinical workers and front-line staff in raising concerns and as whistleblowers. We established the NHS Leadership Academy in 2012 as the national hub for leadership development and talent management. Since it launched its NHS fast-track executive programme in January, there have been more than 1,600 applicants. We are also introducing a new fit and proper person test for directors of registered health care providers, which will allow the CQC to insist on the removal of directors who are responsible for poor care. Those strong steps are in place, and there are others, which I would be happy to discuss another time with my hon. Friend, to embed not just clinical leadership but good leadership throughout our health and care services.

Importantly, in delivering high-quality care and embedding good leadership, we must focus much more on outcomes rather than targets. That goes to the centre of what Robert Francis said, and is led by good clinical leadership. What matters in the health service is that we deliver high-quality care based on good outcomes of care for patients, and we must listen to patients about what good care looks like. The Government are delivering those things, which are at the centre of what Robert Francis recommended as lessons to be learned from Mid Staffs.

Finally, I mention the important issue of embedding the patient voice and listening when things go wrong. As the shadow Minister outlined, the Government have introduced the friends and family test, through which nearly 1.6 million patients have already given instant, real-time, feedback to the NHS about their care. Patients are saying what their experience of care is like. It is not about ticking a box or meeting a target; patients are feeding back information and saying, “Yes my care was good” or “No, my care was not as good as it could have been, and this is how it could be improved.” Good care is about ensuring that we deliver clinical excellence through clinical leadership, listening to patients, and ensuring that we feed back their experiences into delivering better services and a better experience of care. Those are things the Government are doing.

Through the chief inspectors of hospitals, social care and general practice, we are putting proper clinical leadership into the inspection process. We are also ensuring that all feedback from patients, whether concerns voiced on the ward or complaints made once they are back at home, makes a difference. I pay tribute in particular to the work done by the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley on the complaints process, on which there were valuable lessons to be learnt. I thank her for her efforts, which have made a big difference. We are still working on further measures we can put in place to ensure that complaints are listened to. This is all about listening to patients, learning lessons and delivering better care.

We are proud of our record in government in listening to patients and ensuring that we develop proper clinical leadership. We are also proud that, as a result of the Francis report and the measures put in place by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, we are beginning to deliver much greater transparency in our health service. It is also important that we have that transparency in the back office. I disagree with what the shadow Minister said about not needing to reorganise the back room. We have to deliver more transparency, better procurement and improvements in how we run the hospital estate. If we do that properly, there will be more money to deliver high-quality patient care.

The coalition Government—I know the Minister of State, Department of Health, my hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), agrees with me strongly on this—want to see a more productive NHS that is patient-centred and does not waste money in the back office that should be spent on patient care. I make no apologies for organisational steps such as the removal of many of the bureaucratic processes in place under the previous Government, thus saving £1.5 billion a year already. That is good, because it means that more money goes to the front line to deliver high-quality patient care.

The 65th year of the NHS was perhaps its most challenging—certainly in recent memory. The Francis inquiry threw up many challenges for our health and care system, but I believe we are meeting those challenges. Our Government are ensuring that our NHS remains a health service of which we can all be proud, not just today but for many years to come.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered the matter of the Francis Report: One year on.

Patient Medical Records

Dan Poulter Excerpts

Tuesday 4th March 2014 Westminster Hall

[Mr Godsiff]

Well, one intervention and a point of order that was ruled not to be a point of order. Both were during the course of my 15 minutes. It is a matter for the Minister as to whether he wishes to give up some of his time for the hon. Member for Worthing West.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Dr Daniel Poulter)]

indicated assent.

[Mr Mike Weir (in the Chair)]

I shall call Sir Peter, but it must be a very short speech.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Dr Daniel Poulter)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Weir, I believe for the first time. It is also a pleasure to respond to the debate and the points raised by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Hall Green (Mr Godsiff). I congratulate him on securing the debate, as well as on the keen interest he has shown in the correspondence we have conducted via written questions. We have talked through some of the issues and he has expressed concerns about the importance of patient confidentiality.

I hope today to be able to reassure Members that strong safeguards were put in place by the Health and Social Care Act 2012, and that the creation of the Health & Social Care Information Centre was not a sudden event. The process is evolutionary and was debated fully and thoroughly during scrutiny of the Health and Social Care Bill a few years ago. I was a member of the Health and Social Care Bill Committee, as was the hon. Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris), and it sat for longer than almost any other Committee in the House for more than a decade. It is therefore not correct to say that the issues have not been debated and properly scrutinised in the past, because they absolutely have.

[Grahame M. Morris]

Will the Minister give way?

[Dr Poulter]

I am not going to give way because of the time. I have not said anything controversial; I am just reiterating the fact that a lot of the issues that have arisen today were discussed at great length during scrutiny of that Bill. The hon. Gentleman will recall that as he made many interventions and speeches in Committee.

We need to highlight the importance of this issue. We must ensure that we have the right data and the right processes in the NHS to inform good care. It is about ensuring that we have the data to improve research, to drive better integration and, in the wake of the Mid Staffs scandal and the Francis inquiry, to ensure transparency in protecting patient confidentiality and in the quality of care provided by health care providers so that we can ensure that high quality care is provided throughout the NHS and that its quality is properly scrutinised. We must learn from examples of good care, and where, by comparison and other standards, care is not good it should be transparently exposed.

There are important research benefits, too. We know that if we want to combat disease, address some of the challenges that we face in the health system and improve our knowledge of diseases from cancer to heart disease, we need to have the right information. We have to ensure that we collect data and information to improve patient care, which is the heart of everything we are talking about today. As long as we do that—I believe that we have the right safeguards in place through the 2012 Act and through the further clarifications and reassurances provided by the amendments to the Care Bill that have been tabled for next week—we are in the right place to deliver improved transparency and care quality while ensuring that we protect patient confidentiality, in which we all believe.

[Dr Wollaston]

I am passionate about the principles of care, data, and I will not be opting out because of the benefits that the Minister and many others have outlined. He mentions the Francis report, and one of its fundamental principles was that people should be open and transparent about past errors and take account of genuine concerns. I am concerned that what we are hearing from the Health & Social Care Information Centre is very defensive. There is a complete refusal to be transparent about errors; it is blaming everything on a previous body. Many members of those two bodies are the same, so for us to proceed with confidence those legitimate concerns must be addressed.

[Dr Poulter]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. It is also important to highlight that sections 263 to 265 of the 2012 Act put much stronger safeguards in place. Those sections state that processes must be in place in the Health & Social Care Information Centre to ensure confidentiality and to ensure that data are always handled in the right way. The body is responsible for ensuring that those processes are kept up to date and that there are accountability frameworks for those processes. That important step forward was not in place for the previous body.

[Barbara Keeley]

Will the Minister give way?

[Dr Poulter]

I hope the hon. Lady will forgive me, but I want to make progress on some of the points raised in this debate. I will have to be brief any way, and she had a good chance to question me when I appeared before the Select Committee on Health last week. If she feels that she did not have an opportunity to discuss all of the issues, I am sure she will have an opportunity next week when we discuss these matters in our consideration of the Care Bill. Amendments were tabled last night to support some of the issues that we are talking about today. Those amendments will be considered next week, and I am sure those Members who cannot contribute in greater detail today because of the time will be able to contribute much more fully to next week’s debate.

Finally, it is important to talk about driving and supporting integrated, joined-up health and social care across the system, in which we all believe. I know that those Members who are members of the Health Committee believe in that because I remember being a member of that Committee with the hon. Lady and the hon. Member for Easington. If we are to deliver better integrated care, we need to have the right data. One of the key challenges in the past is that we did not collect the data effectively to measure what good integrated care looks like. We know we need to improve the collection of those data, and we want people with long-term conditions such as diabetes, dementia and asthma to be better supported in their own homes and communities. Of course we need to have the data to do that. A lot of those data will come from primary care, and it is important that we put together those data and analyse them to understand what good care looks like. We have not been in the right place to deal with that in the past, but I am confident that we will be in the right place to do it while protecting patient confidentiality with the measures that we are seeking to implement.

[Barbara Keeley]

The point that I wanted to make is in line with what the Minister is saying. Following the revelations about IT issues that I mentioned, and the apology that his colleague the Under-Secretary of State for Health, the hon. Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison) made yesterday to the Commons, will he now agree that it would be sensible for Ministers and NHS England to consider keeping one copy of the care.data database and run staff queries against it, so that it is held in one place and not scattered about on various servers, causing consternation and the need for websites to be taken down, as they were yesterday, because NHS England does not know where the hospital data have gone? The only solution is the one that we discussed last week: keeping one copy and running staff queries against it.

[Dr Poulter]

It is absolutely right that the discussions that we have had in this debate and the issues raised about care.data have been helpful in building on the safeguards in the 2012 Act to improve the processes of the Health & Social Care Information Centre, as a new body, to ensure that it has particular regard to putting strong confidentiality criteria in place. It is also right to keep those criteria under regular review. Obviously, there is regular communication between that body and the Information Commissioner about issues such as protecting confidentiality.

I am sure that we have a robust set of criteria in place under the 2012 Act. It may be helpful to hon. Members if I outline what they are. I reassure the hon. Member for Birmingham, Hall Green that the data are not released for profit. It is about cost recovery when they are. It is also important to say that data are not released in identifiable form without a strong public policy reason: for example, in a civil emergency or some such situation. Data must be used for the benefit of the health and care system. That is a strong set of criteria for use of the data, and strong safeguards are in place. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has already put in place an opt-out for patients who do not want to be involved in the process, which has not been the case in the past.

It is important in this context to highlight that we are not taking a sudden, big-bang approach or change to data; this is an evolutionary process. In 1989, in-patient data were collected for the first time; in 2003, out-patient data; in 2007 and 2008, accident and emergency data. That was about improving and driving transparency, developing better care pathways for patients with, for example, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and ensuring that we better used data to benefit the health service and patients. Now, when it is so important to drive better integration, primary care data will also be collected. That is not a revolutionary change; it is an evolutionary change. What is important is that now, under the 2012 Act, we have much stronger safeguards in place better to protect patient confidentiality and much more rigorous processes under which the Health & Social Care Information Centre, as a new body, will operate, in order to ensure that it regularly reviews its processes and uses data in the right way.

It is also important to say that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State fully supports and is committed to the principles of the programme, which will alert the NHS where standards drop, enable prompt action to be taken, help staff understand what happens to people, especially those with long-term conditions, and help us develop and improve care. However, in order to reassure hon. Members further and bring greater clarity to some of the issues and discussions, we have tabled some amendments to the Care Bill. We will have an opportunity to discuss them fully next week when we debate the Bill. I am sure that when hon. Members see them, in conjunction with the safeguards already in place under the 2012 Act that were not there before, they will be reassured.

The programme is a good one. It is doing the right thing, improving research, driving up care standards in our NHS and supporting the integration of the health and care system, which we all believe in. It is also protecting patient confidentiality. With those reassurances, I close my remarks. I hope that hon. Members will take the opportunity next week to debate fully any further issues or concerns that they may have. I will bring them the reassurances that they need.

Health

Dan Poulter Excerpts

Wednesday 26th February 2014 Ministerial Corrections

[Chris Leslie]

To ask the Secretary of State for Health what his Department's 10 largest contracts let since the financial year 2010-11 are; what savings have been made in such contracts; what the level of overspend or underspend was in each such contract; and what steps his Department has taken to monitor the performance of each supplier of such contract following the contract award.

[Official Report, 21 January 2014, Vol. 574, c. 146-7W.]

Letter of correction from Dr Daniel Poulter:

An error has been identified in the written answer given to the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) on 21 January 2014.

The full answer given was as follows:

[Dr Poulter]

The 10 largest contracts that have been let by the Department since the financial year 2010-11 are as follows:

[Dr Poulter]

The 10 largest contracts that have been let by the Department since the financial year 2010-11 are as follows:

Oral Answers to Questions

Dan Poulter Excerpts

Tuesday 25th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

2. What recent steps he has taken to improve maternity care.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Dr Daniel Poulter)]

We have made improving maternity services—so that women have a named midwife responsible for ensuring personalised care—a key objective in our mandate to NHS England. Since May 2010, the number of midwives has increased by more than 1,500 and a record number—in excess of 5,000—are now in training. Over the past two years I have set up a £35 million capital investment fund, which has already seen improvements to over 100 maternity units.

[Steve Brine]

My local foundation trust is currently exploring a major service change which would see the creation of a new acute care hospital to handle the sickest and most complex patients. It would leave midwife-led units only in Winchester and Basingstoke, and centre consultant-led services on the new site. Does the Minister feel confident that the clinical case for this kind of centralisation has been made? Would he be comfortable to see it rolled out across the NHS?

[Dr Poulter]

My hon. Friend is right to highlight the fact that such decisions are clinical decisions and need to be made at a local level to ensure safe care, both with appropriate numbers of obstetricians in obstetric-led units and to give women the choice to deliver in midwifery-led units where appropriate. I am pleased that we, as part of the fund that I outlined earlier, have been able to give Hampshire Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust £50,000 to provide enhanced facilities in birthing rooms at Florence Portal house.

[Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)]

In 2012 representatives of Group B Strep Support met the Minister and received a commitment that the gold standard of enriched culture medium testing would be introduced, which can facilitate preventive treatment for women in labour. Just before Christmas, Public Health England announced that the testing would not go ahead from 1 January. Can the Minister say why not and when the test will be introduced?

[Dr Poulter]

Group B strep is an important issue. I have seen in my clinical practice the devastating effect that the disease can have on newborn babies and on families, so we are doing all that we can to support work on it and ultimately to develop a vaccine to prevent the condition. I would like to correct the hon. Lady on the record. I met Group B Strep Support with the Chief Medical Officer and we undertook to investigate the applicability of the test. The clinical evidence unfortunately does not support its introduction, and we have to be guided by clinical evidence.

[Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)]

17. My hon. Friend has visited the Hexham midwife-led maternity unit, which provides exemplary care. Can he update the House on what steps the Department of Health is taking to prevent excessive screening of pregnant women away from midwife-led units? Surely health care is about choice, not diktat.

[Dr Poulter]

My hon. Friend is right. It was a pleasure to visit and open the new facilities at his local birthing unit. He has been a tremendous champion for the midwifery-led unit in his constituency, and I pay tribute to him for that. He is right that it is important that women have choice. These are local decisions by local health care commissioners, but I hope that it will give him some reassurance that the number of midwifery-led units has increased from 87 in 2007 to 152 in 2013 precisely because of the investment that the Government are making.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

During pregnancy, two out of 10 women become diabetic. What additional funding is being given to train nurses to deal with this very difficult situation?

[Dr Poulter]

The right hon. Gentleman makes an important point. We need to provide additional personalised one-to-one support for all pregnant women, in particular those who have or who develop medical problems. That is why we are investing in more midwives—we have 1,500 more than in 2010—and why the Royal College of Midwives and the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists have developed guidelines and protocols to support front-line professionals in making sure that those women get extra support and have a safe delivery.

[Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con)]

21. As my hon. Friend is aware, we have been in a two-year battle to secure services at the Alexandra hospital in Redditch, including maternity. Will he meet me to discuss the best way forward to secure safe maternity care for all the mums-to-be in Redditch?

[Dr Poulter]

My hon. Friend has a distinguished record of more than four years of campaigning hard for local health care services in Redditch, and her constituents should be proud of what she has done on their behalf, fighting for Redditch hospital and local services. I shall be delighted to meet her to talk further about the local challenges for maternity care.

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

In the Minister’s earlier answer, was he saying that enriched culture medium testing is not a safe, simple and effective test for group B strep carriage?

[Dr Poulter]

We have had many debates in this House about group B strep and the effects of the disease. The point about enriched culture medium testing is that it takes time for bacteria to grow in culture, and the fact is that there is also evidence from the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists. Public Health England has looked at that evidence and it has decided that it is not a test that is effective to be introduced during pregnancy. That is the medical evidence and we have to be guided by it. There are many other things that we need to do about group B strep, not least supporting the development of a vaccine, which is ultimately the best way forward.

[Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD)]

Will the Minister tell the House what assessment he has made of the impact of the Immigration Bill on the maternity care of vulnerable women who would be expected to pay for their care?

[Dr Poulter]

Of course we need to have a health service in this country that is self-sufficient, and we have a national health service, not an international health service. However, it is right that we ensure that we look at all areas of the health service when we are applying new policies and directives, and make sure that we protect vulnerable patient groups. That is exactly what the Government are doing and we are working with the NHS to ensure that women always receive high-quality maternity care at the point of need.

[Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con)]

3. What progress has been made on introducing a cap on care costs.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chloe Smith (Norwich North) (Con)]

13. What steps his Department is taking to improve the health of veterans.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Dr Daniel Poulter)]

We are rightly proud of the courage and dedication of our armed forces and it is our duty to ensure that veterans receive the best possible care. We continue to improve the health care of our veterans. The Government have invested £22 million in providing enhanced mental health and prosthetic services over the past few years.

[Julian Smith]

Alex Bentley, who chairs the Royal British Legion in Skipton and is the most incredible, passionate campaigner for our armed forces, has serious concerns about how the armed forces covenant is being applied by hospitals and local councils. Is there anything the Minister can do to champion the cause of this excellent Government scheme at local level?

[Dr Poulter]

Aside from the cash investment of £22 million directly in veterans services, we have made it a clear priority in the NHS mandate to make sure that the armed forces covenant becomes a reality in the NHS. We have now identified nine specialist prosthetic centres for veterans who have lost limbs and been injured in combat, and a massive amount of investment is going into services for veterans with mental health problems, including a 24-hour helpline. A lot of investment is being made at the national level and locally, and there will also shortly be dedicated resource for training local professionals on the ground.

[Chloe Smith]

I welcome that response. Will the Minister reassure me that he will properly join up his work with that of the Department for Work and Pensions and the Ministry of Defence? Like many other Members, I know of at least two veteran constituents who clearly need joined-up health and welfare. The voluntary sector helps—including the Matthew Project’s new “Outside the Wire” service in Norfolk—and I expect the same of the Government, who have rightly signed the armed forces covenant.

[Dr Poulter]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. This is not just about providing good health care services, but doing so in a joined-up way. We now have a seriously injured leavers protocol to help the transition of servicemen and women who leave the armed forces and return to civilian life. That is about taking a holistic view of their health and care needs, and any other needs that they may have, in providing the right support when they return to civilian life. It is being rolled out very effectively across the country.

[Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op)]

10. What assessment his Department has made of the availability of mental health services.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

T5. There are nearly 500 UK-trained medical practitioners now working in Australia, of whom 6% never return owing to the better conditions available there. What steps will the Secretary of State and his ministerial team take to ensure that we retain those qualifying in emergency medicine this year, to keep local A and E departments open in Britain and Northern Ireland?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Dr Daniel Poulter)]

I would like to point out to the hon. Lady that it is not unusual for doctors in training to work overseas to improve their medical experience. Many of my contemporaries did that, and every one I know has returned to work in the NHS in the UK. It is a common phenomenon that benefits doctors’ experience. What we have done, unlike the previous Government, is ensure that we now have a 100% fill rate for people entering A and E common stem training.

[Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con)]

T6. What assessment have the Government made of the decision by the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence not to recommend ipilimumab as a first-line treatment for advanced melanoma, except in clinical trials? Will the Minister join me in calling on NICE to reverse this decision and ensure that patients receive earlier access to this treatment to improve their chances of survival?

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)]

T8. Papworth hospital is a world-renowned heart and lung hospital. For years, it has wanted to move to Cambridge, supported by Addenbrooke’s hospital, Cambridge university, the British Heart Foundation, AstraZeneca and many more, but it has been put on hold yet again. Will the Secretary of State make sure that this move, which will help patients, help to develop new treatments and save money, will happen?

[Dr Poulter]

My hon. Friend will be aware that local commissioners take decisions on local services. I will be happy to meet him to discuss this matter further, so we can talk through his concerns and ensure that local health care services are as strong as possible.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

T10. The village of Melling has grown in recent years, yet its surgery hours have been cut drastically. Elderly and disabled residents now face a four-hour round trip by public transport to see their doctor. How can cuts in surgery hours, like those in my constituency, be justified if the Government are serious about having a first-class NHS?

--- Later in debate ---

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

The Minister earlier told the House that 1,500 new midwives had come on stream since the Government started, but, of course, the Government promised that there would be 3,000 delivered by 2015. Midwives are very good at delivery; how good is the Department?

[Dr Poulter]

We have trained more midwives. To go back to a previous question, it was under the previous Government that trained midwives from this country were having to go and work overseas. That is no longer the case. We now have 5,000 more in training—a record number—to make sure that we provide more midwives. I would also like to welcome the hon. Gentleman back to this country.

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

Last year I spent a busy and informative day with the East Midlands ambulance service on the road. It was clear speaking to those professionals that a large proportion of individuals taken to A and E would be better served by going to their GP or by accessing other services. However, the ambulance service felt completely disempowered to advise or even to refuse to take anyone to A and E who requested it.

Cosmetic Interventions

Dan Poulter Excerpts

Thursday 13th February 2014 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Dr Daniel Poulter)]

On 23 April 2013, the independent “Review of the Regulation of Cosmetic Interventions”, chaired by Sir Bruce Keogh, was published. A copy has already been placed in the Library.

The review highlighted how the rapid growth of the cosmetic interventions sector is exposing people who undergo these procedures to a concerning lack of safeguards. It made recommendations to improve the quality of care, to inform and empower the public and to ensure resolution and redress when things go wrong.

We fully accept the principles of the Keogh review and the overwhelming majority of the recommendations. Work is already underway on a number of them, in particular to address the issue of ensuring proper training for cosmetic practitioners. The Royal College of Surgeons has set up an inter-specialty committee to ensure standards for cosmetic surgery and will work with the General Medical Council on a code of ethical conduct. Health Education England is leading on a review of training for providers of non-surgical interventions, such as botulinum toxin—commonly known as “Botox”—and dermal filler injections.

Work is also underway on a breast implant registry to reassure women that if problems arise they can be contacted, kept informed and called in for treatment if necessary.

There are examples of high-quality surgical and non-surgical cosmetic interventions provided by trained staff to high standards of care and satisfaction. It is these high standards that must be universal. We must protect the public and ensure proper training and oversight of non-surgical as well as surgical cosmetic interventions. We shall legislate where required to achieve this.

Today I have pleasure in laying before Parliament “Government Response to the Review of the Regulation of Cosmetic Interventions” (Cm 8776). Copies are available in the Library.

Medical Records (Confidentiality)

Dan Poulter Excerpts

Tuesday 11th February 2014 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Dr Daniel Poulter)]

It is a pleasure, Mr Hollobone, to serve under your chairmanship. I congratulate the hon. Member for Leeds East (Mr Mudie) on securing this debate and all hon. Members on their contributions.

I pay particular tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Norfolk (George Freeman) for his excellent speech, in which he highlighted the importance of sharing data to improve patient care. He talked about empowering patients to take greater control over their health care. That is important and the key to it is ensuring that patients have the right data to do so. He also talked about improving research, ensuring that we can properly combat disease and linking data properly to understand exactly how to find cures for rare diseases. Importantly, he referred to the fact that we need properly to understand how good health services are, and to recognise where there is good practice. That is particularly important following the Francis inquiry and report, which outlined the importance of delivering high-quality care and transparent and properly used data to deliver that. He made those points very well.

[Dr Julian Lewis]

My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Norfolk (George Freeman) also referred to a major project involving people at the Maudsley hospital who had suffered serious mental illness. I want to hear from the Minister that there is no way under the sun that people who have suffered mental illness, for example, would find their data getting into the wrong hands. Without that guarantee, the project seems to be very dangerous.

[Dr Poulter]

In the time available, it is difficult to speak about detailed points. I apologise to my hon. Friend for that and I will write to him addressing some of the points that he raises. However, I can assure him that robust safeguards are already in place to protect patients with mental illness, and those safeguards will remain robust, if not more so under the systems that we will put in place.

It is important to recognise that the big challenge facing the health and care system is the fact that in the past we have had too much silo working, which has been to the detriment of patient care. The health system has often operated in a fragmented and siloed way. The operation of the health and care systems is not integrated and joined up. Key to driving improvements in patient care is ensuring that we join up the information that informs what good care looks like. Integration involves ensuring that a process exists to join up health and care information to improve care for patients.

We want to look after people with diabetes, dementia and long-term illnesses and to give them dignity of care in their own homes. It is important to do that and to have the right information and evidence to do so. We are well into that journey. The £3.8 billion integration fund will help with the provision of services, and the health and social care information centre will help us to get the right evidence base to drive properly joined-up, integrated care.

[George Freeman]

Will the Minister confirm that the situation at the moment—that is, under the previous Care.Data initiative—is more or less that GPs have patients’ records, many of which are not electronic but in paper format with treasury tags, but there is no formal link across to hospital records? Hospitals can say whether a patient has been admitted, but most of them do not have an integrated system to know what treatment a patient received in different parts of the hospital. Normally, someone pushes a wagon along the corridor with the treasury-tagged information. Also, there is no integration at the moment with the care system. The data of many of my constituents who go in and out of hospital for acute care and community care are chaotic. That makes transparency difficult, and it was one of the things at the heart of the Francis report and some of the Winterbourne View issues. We must remember that we would all gain from this public health benefit.

[Dr Poulter]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point, and he is right to highlight the fact that we are talking about an evolutionary process. The health and social care information centre is not a sudden revolution. It will allow better use of information to join up care in exactly the way that he describes. It is no good having a £3.8 billion integration fund for better provision of services unless we have the right information and can join up intelligence to understand what good care looks like.

[Mr Mudie]

The two professionals in the Chamber are having an interesting conversation, but the public want to know whether the Minister is content, first, that the use of personal data will not lead to the identification of individuals and, secondly, with the present system of consultation on opting-out.

[Dr Poulter]

We already have robust procedures in place, and they will exist under the new system to protect patient confidentiality. I would describe them in more detail if I had more time, but it is worth highlighting some of the history. It is not revolutionary to store information; it is evolutionary. Hospital episode statistics started being collected in the following care settings in, I believe, the following years: in-patient data in 1989, out-patient data in 2003, A and E data in 2007-08, and primary care data from 2014.

We already have systems for collecting and analysing information, and patient safeguards exist in those systems. We will now see a system that better joins up and builds that evidence base to drive better care for patients, which is exactly the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Norfolk made. We need to expand the evidence base, and it is absolutely right that we ensure patient confidentiality when doing so. I believe that we have the right safeguards in place to do that.

A number of points have been raised in the debate, and I will write to hon. Members with further clarification. I hope that that will be helpful.

Mrs M. Barnes (NHS Treatment)

Dan Poulter Excerpts

Thursday 6th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Dr Daniel Poulter)]

I congratulate the right hon. Member for Rother Valley (Kevin Barron) on securing the debate and commend him for all the work he has done on behalf of his constituent, and for the work he did in the previous Parliament, before I was a Member, as Chair of the Health Committee. I know that he has a long and distinguished record of fighting on health issues in the House, for his constituents and more generally. I also congratulate him on his recent knighthood. I am sure that the House will echo those congratulations.

We can all agree that good-quality patient care is expected, regardless of which part of the country we live in, and that all patients should expect it. I pay tribute to the NHS staff in the right hon. Gentleman’s constituency for the work that they do.

I am sorry to hear about the difficulties that Mrs Barnes has experienced and that she is dissatisfied with the quality of the care she has received. It is never acceptable for a patient to receive anything less than the very best treatment and service from our NHS. However, I am sure that all hon. Members will appreciate that the provision of local health care services is a matter for the NHS locally and that the Department of Health and Ministers do not play a role in directly investigating individual localised health care complaints, which should, quite rightly, be investigated without political interference to ensure that there is no question of bias. There is an NHS complaints procedure to resolve concerns and to help local NHS organisations to learn from the experiences of their patients. On the anniversary of the Mid Staffordshire scandal and the Francis inquiry, it is right that we reflect on the fact that we have to learn from things that have gone wrong in our health service and make sure we put them right for the benefit of future patients.

I understand that, as the right hon. Gentleman outlines, Mrs Barnes has been pursuing this matter for many years and has made use of the NHS complaints system, up to and including the health service ombudsman, on a number of occasions. I also understand—this is an important point in the context of the ombudsman and other issues—that a number of the concerns that Mrs Barnes raises about her care relate to events involving non-NHS health care. I should make it clear that what I say relates to the NHS, and not to health care providers working outside the NHS with whom Mrs Barnes may have decided to undertake treatment.

It is relevant at this stage to say a few words about how the ombudsman system works.

[Kevin Barron]

I accept, to some extent, the Minister’s point about the wider issues, which were not a matter of referral to the ombudsman. However, a constituent might often go to the private sector needing to get things done because they are in pain, for example, and might then see a consultant they could also see under the NHS. Often the staff are the same people, and there is no great difference between the clinicians they meet. Does he agree with that?

[Dr Poulter]

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. It is difficult, in terms of the care pathway, for any patient to draw these distinctions. However, the NHS complaints procedure relates to NHS care, and the ombudsman’s role is as a public sector ombudsman. That goes to the heart of some of the difficulties we are talking about.

If a complainant is dissatisfied with the outcome of their complaint locally, they have the right to take it to the health service ombudsman, whose office was set up under the Health Service Commissioners Act 1993. When complaints are escalated, it is important that they are investigated independently, free from the political process, to ensure that there is no question of bias. The health service ombudsman is completely independent of the Department of Health, the Government, and the NHS. It is therefore difficult for me to comment on the ombudsman’s decisions directly.

If a complainant is dissatisfied with the ombudsman’s decision, they may make use of her own complaints process. The recourse open to anyone after the ombudsman has made a final decision is to seek a judicial review. During the entire complaints process, we assume that patients would take legal advice whenever they think it necessary. That is in their best interests and, in some cases, it is often important that patients have advice from a completely independent source.

If, on the basis of the legal advice received, patients decide to commence legal action against the NHS, that is, of course, to be expected. The House will understand that I cannot comment on legal advice given to patients, including Mrs Barnes, as that is entirely a matter between the patient and her lawyer. Complaints about lawyers are not a matter for the Department of Health or the NHS, nor for this House to consider in this context. I am aware that Mrs Barnes has exhausted all the legal remedies open to her. Her case has been considered by a number of courts, including the Court of Appeal, and has on each occasion been rejected. It goes without saying that these matters will have been considered carefully by the various judges involved, and I should not and will not cast any doubt on their judgments.

[Dr Julian Lewis]

I was not familiar with this case until I heard it outlined in such detail, but as I understand it the pointed issue is not about the merits or otherwise of this lady’s original arguments with the health service. I think I am right in saying that the only pointed issue is that the Information Commissioner’s Office directed that certain data should be removed from the record. They were not and she complained to the ombudsman, who does not seem to want to say whether it was right that they were left on her record or whether they ought to have been removed.

[Dr Poulter]

My hon. Friend will be aware that patients have open access to their records and can request to see them, but it is not for a patient forcibly to remove relevant clinical information from them. I am not sure whether that was the case in these particular circumstances, but I hope to be able to reassure the right hon. Member for Rother Valley.

It is worth pointing out that, during the long line of litigation, in 2007 Mr Justice Simon said, following a hearing, that

“this is not a case of professional conspiracies by the medical or legal professions; it is a case where the balance of the evidence before the Court fell decisively and conclusively in favour of the defendant”,

meaning the NHS. There is a long history of legal rulings that make that point clearly. Indeed, I understand that the NHS Litigation Authority obtained cost orders in its favour for that case, although it was unable to recover its costs. I reassure the right hon. Gentleman, however, that I shall look into the issues he has raised about the ombudsman and the Information Commissioner and write to him about them.

[Kevin Barron]

I appreciate that. I know that there is some history to the case of Mrs Barnes, but in my humble view—I understand that the ombudsman and politicians should not get mixed up—this specific issue is not about what happened in the courts. It is about what did or did not happen at the request of the Information Commissioner. My reading of the situation is that it could have been managed and handled by the health service ombudsman and compensation could have been paid. In my view, the ombudsman sat back, possibly because of the history to which the Minister has just referred, and thought, “It’s got to go to litigation and that’s it.” When other avenues were closed off, the ombudsman’s office could have managed the situation, but it seems to me that it backed off, looked at the whole history of the case of Mrs Barnes and said that it had to go to litigation. I think that is unfair and that the ombudsman’s office could have handled things much better and smarter on behalf of my constituent.

[Dr Poulter]

I note what the right hon. Gentleman says. I have committed to looking further into the issue and to writing to him, and I hope that will reassure him further about the processes that have been followed in this case.

As I said at the outset, I am very sorry to hear that Mrs Barnes is unhappy at the care and treatment she has received from the NHS. I am also aware that, over the years, she has been seen and treated in a private capacity on a number of occasions, which, as we have discussed, complicates the issues, because it can make it difficult to establish whether the responsibility sits with the NHS—as part of either the ombudsman’s process or the NHS complaints procedure—or elsewhere. Her case has also been considered by the courts on a number of occasions and I have alluded to their conclusions.

I understand that Mrs Barnes made full use of the various NHS complaints processes, but remains dissatisfied, which we have discussed in detail today. Accordingly, she has involved the health ombudsman, but the outcome has not been as she would have wished.

As I have said—this is worth repeating—the ombudsman is independent of Ministers, the Department of Health and the Government. An option open to anyone dissatisfied with the ombudsman’s actions is judicial review, but it is not to be embarked on lightly and those considering doing so should ensure that they take legal advice.

I wish Mrs Barnes well and I appreciate the intentions of the right hon. Gentleman and his strong advocacy of her case.

Question put and agreed to.

NHS

Dan Poulter Excerpts

Wednesday 5th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Andy Burnham]

We are seeing this across the NHS. We have also seen contracts going to companies whose shareholders are Tory party donors. The closeness of the links between the Tory party and private health care is worrying.

Since April, when their Act came in, seven out of the 10 contracts let have gone outside the NHS. That is the clearest of all wake-up calls about what is happening to the NHS under this Government: it is being broken up and sold off. Under section 75 of the Act, clinicians have to put services out to tender, regardless of whether they are performing well, and that is the big difference between this Government and the last one. They are enforcing competition and marketisation in the NHS, but nobody voted for it.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Dr Daniel Poulter)]

Why, when the right hon. Gentleman was Secretary of State, were the previous Government prepared to pay private sector providers 11% more than NHS providers?

[Andy Burnham]

Let me explain the difference to the Minister. When we were in government we used the private sector in a supporting role to help bring down NHS waiting times; he is using the private sector to replace the public NHS. There is a very big difference. He might remember that as Secretary of State I introduced the NHS preferred provider policy. At the time, his party complained—it said it was wrong—but I did it because I believed in the public NHS. I believe in what it stands for, unlike him and his party.

[Dr Poulter]

I remind the right hon. Gentleman that, unlike him, I have worked for the NHS and understand what it is like to work on its front line. Will he confirm that the previous Government introduced private sector provision into the NHS and paid 11% more to private sector providers than to NHS providers? This Government will not allow that.

[Andy Burnham]

The Minister looks pleased with himself, but I am afraid he has got his facts wrong. We did not introduce the private sector into the NHS; it has always worked with the private sector to relieve pressure on waiting lists. As a doctor, he should know that. He might also know that waiting lists and times came right down under the last Government, because the private sector supported the NHS, and I am proud of how we brought waiting lists down, but he is using the private sector to replace the public NHS. He is saying that any qualified provider can provide NHS contracts. I had a policy of designating the NHS as the preferred provider. So let us get the facts straight. There is a major difference between the two positions.