Care Bill [Lords]

Grahame Morris Excerpts

Monday 10th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Paul Burstow]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is the basis of the average fair rate, which I mentioned. New clause 15 would provide a mechanism for establishing a formula by which fee rates are set transparently for both domiciliary and residential care. The organisations representing the sector believe that that would lead to much greater transparency, and I think that it would deal with some of the rather toxic relationships that sometimes appear to exist, both nationally and locally.

New clause 2 is about older people, particularly the proposition that we should take a leaf out of the book of our colleagues in Wales and Northern Ireland in relation to having a commissioner for older people. Ageism and ageist attitudes are endemic in our society and, indeed, in public services. Our society is ageing, with life spans increasing, and that profound change will affect us all. It has implications for how the NHS and care services behave, but it goes far wider.

My new clause simply calls on the Government to work on the mechanics of establishing such a post so that there is someone to listen to and give a voice to older people; to champion their vital contribution to our economy—in work, as care givers and as volunteers, mentors and community leaders—rather than their being seen as burdens, which is how older people are all too often portrayed; to challenge the complacent and lazy stereotypes; and to hold public services to account.

Such a role already exists in Northern Ireland, Wales and other parts of the world. It would involve asking such questions as: why do the 360,000 cases of abuse suffered by older people every year lead to so few prosecutions, why are older people excluded from clinical trials and other research, and why do we stop reporting people’s cancer survival rates once they pass the age of 75? I hope that the Minister is open to the idea, and I look forward to his response.

New clause 26 deals with the issue of mental health, which came up very briefly in Committee. I know that the Minister is a passionate champion of mental health concerns. The new clause simply says that if a person has an accident—for example, breaks their arm—suffers a stroke or has a heart attack, the last place they would expect it to be sorted out is a cell in a police station, but that that is exactly where people who have a mental health crisis find themselves. The statistics are stunning: 36% of all people who are taken to a place of safety find themselves in a police station and stay there for more than 10 hours. Not only have adults been subject to that process, but 263 children, on the most recent figures. My new clause simply seeks to place a sunset provision on the definition of a place of safety, including a police station, which should create a way of concentrating minds to ensure that services are provided in the right place at the right time for children and adults.

I come to new clauses 7 and 9 last because they are about addressing what we might regard as the elephant in the room in any conversation about care services and the Bill’s noble intentions of improving the quality of care and of driving well-being into the heart of how care and support are delivered. The new clauses raise interconnected questions about the future funding of care and support, and about the independent nature of our health and care systems. Social care has for far too long—for decades—been the poor relation to health in decisions about public expenditure. Today’s funding challenges are chronic and are not simply the result of deficit reduction.

New clause 9 reflects the concern of a remarkable coalition of interests outside this place, including the Local Government Association, the Care and Support Alliance, hundreds of non-governmental organisations, directors of social services and chief executives, and many more besides. They all want to serve notice on the Government that they are concerned about the serious impact that the continuing pressure on local government spending will have on the ability of councils to deliver the care and support that everybody in this House wants to be delivered under the Bill. The picture is complex. Different councils are coping differently—some are overspending their care budgets and some are underspending them—but the trend is clear, despite the extra £7.2 billion that was allocated in the 2010 spending review and the transfer of money as part of the better care fund in the most recent spending review.

New clause 9 simply provides for an assessment to be made and signed off by the programme board that oversees the implementation of the Bill. It is not an unreasonable request that we check that the sums add up and that the money is sufficient to deliver what the Bill is about. I hope that the Minister will reassure us about how transparent that process will be. Impact assessments are one thing; this process would be another. I think that it would provide considerable reassurance to those who will have the job of implementing the legislation.

[Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab)]

I apologise for breaking the right hon. Gentleman’s flow. I agree with virtually everything that he has said. On the need to ensure that the Bill does everything that it says on the tin, may I draw attention to the fact that when I met my constituent, Jason Roche, who is very active in the Royal National Institute of Blind People, he pointed out that 43% of blind and partially sighted people in England have lost access to adult social care services since 2005. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the Bill must address the needs of working-age adults who suffer from disabilities?

[Paul Burstow]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. He makes an important point. If one looks at the trends, one sees that there is no doubt that there are questions to be asked about why some people are not receiving the service that one would expect. Some of that—although I do not pretend that this covers anywhere near all of it—can be explained by the changes to the way in which services are organised. Some of it can be explained by the need to do more to re-able people and to enable them to maintain their independence. I do not say that to evade the question. That is why I have put new clauses 7 and 9 before the House. I genuinely think that whoever is in government in future will have to have a much more systematic approach to making decisions about how we meet demand.

That brings me on to new clause 7, which simply says that the Government should take a longer-term view. It states that every five years, the Government should look 20 years forward and take an independent assessment of the future demand for care and health services. That could be done by the Office for Budget Responsibility. It could provide modelling for the whole health and social care system that looks at the impact on demand, technology, demography and health status, and at the balance between all those factors. It could also look at the interactions between health and care, primary and secondary care, physical and mental health, and treatment and prevention. That would finally implement a recommendation that was made by Derek Wanless in his review for the Government in 2000. That is supported by the King’s Fund, which has suggested much the same thing.

In Committee, neither the Government nor the Opposition were able to make any funding commitments about part 1 of the Bill. I entirely understand why that is the case. However, we know that as the eligibility criteria are drawn more tightly, more people are excluded from help. In the long run, that does not save money, but shunts the costs. It pushes people away from living an independent life and towards a life of dependency. I hope that all parties will, in the end, sign up to something like new clause 7 as a good part of the future sound governance of our health and social care system. I hope that the Minister will support that.

I apologise to the House for speaking at such length, but I have put forward a number of issues that I hope will provide a framework for debating this important set of reforms. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

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I did not serve on the Public Bill Committee, but I know that this matter was examined there. Warm words have been spoken, but I tabled the new clause because I hope to tie the Government down to a timetable. I want them to make some progress and report back in six months on what further legislative or regulatory changes are needed to make this portability of care a reality; I do not want this to keep being argued backwards and forwards, as has happened for such a long time. As my new clause is modest, I hope the Government may be prepared to accept it at this stage, so that six months after Royal Assent we will be coming back with practical steps that can be taken to move this on. In that way, I hope that people such as Mr Kenny will not in the future be faced with having this argued over their head, with their not being able in the meantime to have the care they need—care near to their family, which of course will probably, in the end, result in a saving to everyone.

[Grahame M. Morris]

I echo the sentiments of other hon. Members about the lack of time we have been allocated. I appreciate that it is not your fault, Madam Deputy Speaker, but we have so much to get through and the shortage of time means that although I would like to speak in support of a raft of amendments and new clauses, I will limit my remarks to a discussion of new clause 9.

I am supportive of the Care Bill—changes that make care simpler and fairer are to be welcomed—but there are real concerns about the sustainability of the changes this Bill seeks to make. I do not doubt the integrity and good will of the Minister of State, Department of Health, the hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), but with all the good will in the world the proposals in the Bill can be implemented successfully only if they are properly funded.

Other hon. Members have raised concerns about the funding implications, and the original Dilnot report, one of the foundation stones of the Bill, made it clear that insufficient funding would hamper the effectiveness of any attempts to implement reforms, including the ones in this Bill, and that long-term social care funding will work only if the current crisis in social care is addressed first. So we must not forget that the success of the Bill will be jeopardised by laying reforms over a system that is underfunded. I do not have time to go into the figures, save to say that adult social care budgets alone have been reduced by £2.7 billion over the past three years—that amounts to 20% of average council budgets.

The impact of such cuts is compounded by rising demand resulting from demographic changes. It has been estimated that to meet the demographic pressures the nation needs to spend another £400 million a year. So local government has real concern that the implementation costs and ongoing running costs of the reforms being implemented through this excellent Bill have not been fully costed and will not be funded, other than as new burdens.

It is unacceptable—and it will damage public confidence and trust—to pretend that new standards will be able to be met if the resources are not in place to deliver them. That is why it is so important that an additional reporting mechanism is in place, such as new clause 9 would establish, to provide assurance that the social care system and reforms in the Bill are adequately funded. If the Government really intend the Bill to be their flagship piece of legislation on social care, we need to know that the numbers add up. Despite councils’ best efforts to protect front-line services, the reality of cuts on this scale has meant that adult social care has not been immune to their impact.

A number of hon. Members have indicated the scale of the impact in their own areas, but the eligibility criteria level for social care has risen dramatically across a range of authorities. It is unclear how the new eligibility threshold will work in practice, both in terms of the effectiveness of care that older and disabled people will receive and the impact that the threshold will have on local government finances. But it is a concern that an eligibility threshold set at “substantial” will, as the hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) has said, fail to create a preventive care system—that is what we all want, along with well-being.

A failure to create a preventive care system could result in a false economy in the long term—my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall) mentioned the figures from the Deloitte study. By not delivering the £1.2 billion of investment needed to lower the national eligibility threshold, central Government could be missing out on savings as great as £700 million. The well-being principle of the Bill will fail to become a reality as many old and disabled people will be ineligible to have their needs met, so it is important that the effectiveness and sustainability of the eligibility threshold is reviewed and changed when appropriate.

We have a unique opportunity to improve care, which is why I am in favour of establishing the joint care and support reform programme board set out in our new clause 9, which provides for a report on performance and implementation. A failure to do so could render the well-intentioned reforms in the Care Bill meaningless.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

Social services are under huge funding pressure, which has a knock-on effect on the NHS. New clause 9 highlights the crucial issue of funding and will contribute to addressing it. Just 10 days ago, I experienced at first hand those pressures on the NHS. I would have added my name to this new clause, but I was unable to be here because I spent three days in Southport and Formby district general hospital. I saw the pressures in the accident and emergency department resulting from beds not being available for the transfer of patients to the wards; the pressures arising from chronic staff shortages; the difficulty in helping patients to return home because of a lack of support in the community; and general practitioners sending older people to A and E with complex needs as there was a lack of other choice or care available. In large part, the cuts in social services funding meant that I saw all those things. Meanwhile, staff in the NHS are working incredibly hard, often doing double shifts to look after patients, for which I am extremely grateful, as are many others. I take this opportunity to thank them and everybody in the ambulance service for what they did for me and have done for many other people.

The evidence I collected during those three days shows just why we need to be confident that funding is in place. Unless the funding is adequate, both in social care and in the NHS, the challenges faced day by day, hour by hour in our NHS will grow worse. We need greater integration, provided through the all-party approach advocated by Sir John Oldham in the report by his Independent Commission on Whole Person Care. As the report says, practice needs to move on so that we can see more care provided at home, with professionals working closer together in the interests of the individual. The whole-person care approach would reduce the number of hospital admissions; it would keep more people at home for longer, reducing hospital admissions and avoiding the huge pressures that I witnessed. In the context of the Bill, we need to be confident that the funding is sufficient to deliver the new responsibilities, which is why we tabled new clause 9. I hope that Members will support it this evening.

New clause 19 calls for health bodies to promote the health and well-being of carers. As the independent commissions report states:

“Most care is delivered by people themselves and their families.”

That makes the health of carers vital. My dad cares for my mum, and his health is a major concern. Carers up and down the country face declining health as they care for loved ones. Caring for the people who care is also a vital aspect of care provision, and paid staff in the health and social care sectors are also carers. My right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) talked about priority treatment going to volunteer carers—family members, friends and other volunteers. We should also consider that approach for everyone who works in the NHS or in social care. If we read the new clause in its widest sense, we should consider paid carers too, be they in the NHS or in social care.

Some 1.3 million people work in the NHS, and 1.5 million in social care. We should promote the health of NHS and social care staff as well as that of unpaid carers who do a fantastic job up and down the country. I hope that new clauses 9 and 19 receive the support of the House.

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[Nick Smith]

I assure my right hon. Friend that the new clause refers to all adults, so takes on board the people he mentions.

Subsection (4) of the new clause seeks to strengthen protection. It would ensure that, if abuse were found to have an element of corporate responsibility, and if systems or the approaches taken by the care provider are a contributory factor in the abuse or neglect, the new offence would allow the prosecution of a registered care provider. The Government have the opportunity to shape the culture of the care sector in the Bill tonight.

[Grahame M. Morris]

In Committee, the Minister said that he supported the sentiment of the proposal. Does my hon. Friend accept that, although the new fit and proper person test and the new fundamental standards are important, they do not make provision for a custodial sentence for proprietors, managers and directors of such establishments in such cases?

[Nick Smith]

My hon. Friend has got to the nub of the issue. Managers and directors of organisations such as care homes have to accept that they set the culture of those places, and that they are responsible for looking after the residents in their care, and for avoiding neglect and abuse. If they get it wrong, they should face the possibility of a jail sentence. That is what the new clause would do.

We must go that extra mile to ensure that our safeguards deliver for care home residents. New clause 27 would greatly help that cause. I intend to divide the House on the measure.

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[Mr Dorrell]

I agree with the thought that my right hon. Friend identifies. I have been choosing my words with care—I hope—in inviting the Minister to chart a course towards a more joined-up concept of commissioning. Almost as I offer my critique of the commissioning structures, I can feel officials in the Box writing the next version of the legislation that will have another go at providing the perfect solution to deliver something that is better than we have ever dreamt up before. I emphasise that what I am looking for from the Minister is a route map or journey—a process, not an event—and preferably one that builds on existing institutions rather than committing what I regard as the mistake of starting again with a clean sheet of paper.

[Grahame M. Morris]

The idea that the right hon. Gentleman propagates, which he has long held—that fragmentation is a bad thing and integration and joined-up services are a good thing—is one that I subscribe to, but does he share my concerns at reports that the commissioning functions through the clinical commissioning groups are to be privatised? Is that likely to make for more joined-up services or greater fragmentation?

[Mr Dorrell]

The hon. Gentleman knows that I do not entirely share his concern about who holds the share certificate for a particular service. I am more concerned about the accountability of a public authority for the use of public money to deliver a public service. On that, the hon. Gentleman and I are probably as one. I am also concerned that the system, from the perspective of the patient and service user, does not rely on them finding their way under their own steam through an impenetrable morass, but is designed with their needs and instincts in mind. That is a test that our current system simply does not pass and has not passed for many years.

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I want to say at the outset that, in my view, the care.data programme is good news and offers a great deal to help to improve our country’s health and care system in a gradual and progressive way. Care.data is evolution and not something fundamentally new. We started to collect hospital episode statistics for in-patient data in 1989, for out-patient data in 2003 and for accident and emergency data in 2007-08. The aim is to add primary care data to that list in 2014.

[Grahame M. Morris]

Will the Minister give way?

[Dr Poulter]

I have not said anything controversial yet, so if the hon. Gentleman will let me make some progress, I will happily give way later.

To realise the huge potential of health care data, patients and professionals must have absolute trust in the way that the data will be protected and used, together with an understanding of why collecting the data on such a scale is important. I absolutely understand that many people have concerns about how the process might work, but I am confident that the Government amendments will bring further reassurance to the House about the care.data programme.

The Government fully support NHS England’s decision to delay the start of the care.data programme so that more work can be done to build understanding and confidence. NHS England will be leading that work. In parallel, having listened to key stakeholders and to discussions in this place, the Government have brought forward a package of measures, including amendments to the Bill, to respond to concerns and to give the public greater clarity and reassurance that their data are safe.

The Health and Social Care Act 2012, which established the Health and Social Care Information Centre, introduced a raft of safeguards to balance the huge benefits that linking health and care data can bring. That offered people greater protection than was previously available. It is worth highlighting some sections of the 2012 Act as examples of that.

Under section 260, the Health and Social Care Information Centre must not publish the information that it obtains in a form that would enable an individual, other than a provider of care, to be identified. Similarly, under section 261, the HSCIC cannot disseminate share data that could be used to identify an individual, other than a provider of care, except when there is another legal basis for doing so, which could happen in the event of a civil emergency or public health emergency, such as a flu pandemic. Under section 263, the HSCIC must publish a code of practice that makes it clear how it and others should handle confidential data. Under section 264, the HSCIC must be open and transparent about the data it obtains by publishing a register with descriptions of the information. Indeed, the HSCIC is currently working to ensure that it is transparent about all the data it has released to others.

Moreover, the Government have made the commitment that if someone has concerns about data being used in this way, they can ask their general practice to note their objection and opt out of the system. Following that, no identifiable data about them will flow from their GP record to the HSCIC. Directions to the HSCIC under section 254 of the 2012 Act—separate from the amendments that the House is considering—will ensure that that commitment to patients has legal force.

We are going further than that. Having listened to key stakeholders and to discussions in Parliament, we have a further package of measures that, in parallel with NHS England’s further engagement activity, will respond to the concerns that we have heard and give the public additional reassurance that their data are safe. Of course, aggregated and anonymised data, which cannot be used to identify any individual person, should and will be made generally available. Indeed, a great deal of research relies on data of this type, where researchers do not need to see any data at the individual person level. Such aggregated and anonymous data are available now, and were available previously through the predecessor body to the HSCIC.

New clause 34 sets out a number of changes to the 2012 Act which, taken together, clarify when the HSCIC can and cannot release data. The new clause expressly prevents the HSCIC from using its general dissemination power where there is not a clear health care, adult social care or health promotion purpose—for example, for commercial insurance purposes. I am happy to confirm that the new clause enables anonymised information to be disseminated under the HSCIC’s general dissemination power for a wide range of health and care-related purposes, including for commissioning for a wide range of public health purposes and for research relating to health and care services such as the epidemiological research that is needed at the earliest stages of developing new treatments.

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[Barbara Keeley]

rose—

[Grahame M. Morris]

rose—

[Dr Poulter]

I am not going to give way. I am still addressing the hon. Lady’s point, and I am not saying anything controversial. If we had had better, more joined-up data that could have been used in a more transparent way beforehand, we might have been able to head off the events that we saw at Mid Staffs much earlier. This is about protecting patients and the public, and about using population-level data in an open and transparent way. Under the safeguards that we are introducing in the new clause, data will not be used for commercial insurance purposes. Let me give that reassurance.

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[Dr Poulter]

Hopefully, if I am allowed to make some progress and address the points that have been raised, I will give further reassurances a little later. It would be useful—[Interruption.] I will answer the question a little later, so there is no point in heckling or being abusive. If the right hon. Gentleman will wait, I will talk him through the Government’s amendments so that he can gain a better understanding —

[Grahame M. Morris]

Will the Minister give way?

[Dr Poulter]

No, I will not.

[Grahame M. Morris]

Are you afraid?

[Dr Poulter]

No, I am not afraid to give way. The hon. Gentleman should sit down, because he often has quite enough to say, and it is not always a very valuable contribution. In this context, he may do well to listen to some of the purposes of the amendments. As I have already outlined, there are strong safeguards set out in the 2012 Act on how data can be used. Data can be used only for the benefit of the health and care system. In order to reassure the public, we have tabled amendments to clarify further how data may be used.

Speaking to a great many people in recent days, as well as considering amendments tabled by other Members, has prompted the Government to re-table the new clause in order to clarify that these kinds of data may also be disseminated for other wider public health purposes, such as research into environmental factors associated with asthma, or for healthy eating. We have ensured that those other kinds of research can benefit from the data by changing the wording in the new clause to make it clear that information may be disseminated for the purposes of

“the provision of health care or adult social care”

or “the promotion of health”. I am sure that the House will agree that it is essential that that valuable data resource is available to support a broad range of health research.

New clause 34 clarifies that in disseminating information, and indeed in carrying out any of its functions, the Health and Social Care Information Centre must have regard to the need to promote and respect the privacy of those receiving health services and adult social care in England. It also requires the HSCIC to take into account advice from the advisory committee that the Health Research Authority is required to appoint under paragraph 8 of schedule 7 to the Bill. The advice from that committee, known as the confidentiality advisory group, will provide a new level of independent scrutiny of the HSCIC’s decisions to publish or disseminate information.

Amendment 17 would also enable the confidentiality advisory group to advise the HSCIC on the exercise of functions conferred in regulations under section 251 of the National Health Service Act 2006, or more generally on decisions to disseminate information that could be used to identify individual patients. For example, when new regulations are made under section 251 of the 2006 Act that confer functions on the HSCIC, the confidentiality advisory group could advise the HSCIC on proposals to release data. New clause 34 requires the HSCIC to have regard to that external advice on its exercise of any function under the 2012 Act of publishing or otherwise disseminating information.

Amendment 18 gives the Secretary of State regulation-making powers to set out the specific criteria that the confidentiality advisory group will be required to take into account in giving advice to the Secretary of State, the Health Research Authority or the HSCIC in carrying out their duties. That provision is intended to enable regulations which would require that the confidentiality advisory group considers: that the purpose for which the data will be used should be in the public interest and for the provision of health and care services; that any approved processing must respect and promote the privacy of patients and care service users; that the purpose cannot be achieved using suitably anonymised data, rather than identifiable data; that it is not reasonably possible to gain explicit patient consent to achieve that purpose; and that the applicant requesting the data has not misused those kinds of data in the past.

That last criterion would effectively introduce a new “one strike and you’re out” deterrent. Potentially, for some organisations, the risk of no longer being able to access those kinds of data may prove a more effective sanction than the current maximum monetary penalty of £500,000 that can be imposed under the Data Protection Act 1998. Taken together, those measures provide an additional level of scrutiny and assurance to the processes of the HSCIC in publishing or disseminating information. The Government’s amendments—new clause 34 and amendments 17 and 18—provide robust assurance that those kinds of data cannot be disseminated for purposes such as commercial insurance or for assessing an individual’s mortgage application.

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[Dr Poulter]

Indeed, Mr Speaker, and I hope that other Members will also be sensitive to that. The more interventions I take, the less opportunities there are for Members to speak. I have been very generous. I have taken interventions on a number of occasions from those on the shadow Front Bench, and from the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) and others. I have been generous with my time, but I want to preserve time for other Members to contribute to the debate, as I see you are keen for me to do, Mr Speaker.

Although the HRA amendments are important in ensuring that its remit is clearly and accurately defined, it will be able to work with those with an interest in children’s social care research when research crosses boundaries, to seek consistency in standards and to avoid unnecessary duplication.

Government amendments 15 and 16 are minor and technical. Amendment 15 is consequential to the addition of provisions on the better care fund—part 4—in Committee. It ensures that provisions on commencement cover the better care fund. Amendment 16 removes the privilege amendment inserted in the other place in accordance with the Commons’ sole privilege to deal with monetary matters.

The Government’s proposals ensure that we correct the difficulties we inherited from the previous Government in preserving confidential patient data. They ensure that we have in place a system in which NHS and care data must be used for the benefit of the health and care system and for public health purposes. They put us in a much better place to ensure that we enhance transparency and better use information to benefit patients. They ensure that we have a better basis on which to understand the basis of disease. If in the first place we had had the Health and Social Care Information Centre and the benefits we know will come from care.data, we would have been able to deal with and better combat many diseases while protecting patient confidentiality. We would have understood much more quickly the dangers of thalidomide and other drugs that were harmful to babies in utero. We would have been in a much better place to expose those examples of poor care, such as Mid Staffs; to develop national frameworks for treating diseases such as chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and heart disease; and to understand what good care looks like in the treatment of those conditions by collecting data in a fundamentally better and joined-up way.

The Health and Social Care Information Centre will, for the first time, provide us with a repository for joined-up, integrated data across health and care. Hon. Members often rightly talk of integrated care, and of the benefits of joining up health and care. Unless we have the data collected to understand what good integrated care looks like, and unless we understand what measures of integration are right, we will not be able properly to inform the debate on delivering integrated care or break down the silos that have sometimes existed to the detriment of patients across the health and care system. I hope hon. Members on both sides of the House can support that. I hope they decently recognise that this Government have put in place not just a patient opt-out if they do not want their data to be shared, but strong safeguards—much stronger safeguards than the previous Government —to protect patient confidentiality.

[Grahame M. Morris]

In principle, I support the utilisation of truly anonymised patient data sharing for the purposes of improving public health, but I take issue with a number of the Minister’s points, not least in relation to new clause 25, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Copeland (Mr Reed). Accountability is important. If the Minister and the Government are serious about addressing the public’s concern, they would ensure that the Secretary of State and Ministers are responsible rather than an unelected quango. Frankly, the Minister’s assurances at the Dispatch Box this evening, and those given to the Health Committee just a week or two ago, need to be in the Bill, so that there is a level of accountability and some comeback.

When we debated patient data sharing in Committee and, more recently, in Westminster Hall, my impression was that Ministers have tended to conflate legitimate patient privacy concerns, which are shared by hon. Members and members of the public, with the general lack of support for the utilisation of patient data for further research. They are mistaken, because right hon. and hon. Members are more or less unanimous in supporting any move that can lead to better research, improved care and increased safety.

[Barbara Keeley]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way, because the Minister was clearly frightened of answering questions from me and from my right hon. Friend the shadow Health Secretary. The Minister refused even to listen to the question, so I shall ask my hon. Friend: does he think that there is scope for confusion because some companies are in the market of insurance products and health and social care? The Minister would not take the question, so we do not have any answers on how a firm such as BUPA, which is already involved in research and already using the data, could be dealt with.

[Grahame M. Morris]

That is a perfect example and an important question that the Minister and the Government should answer. If we are to ensure that we have public trust in the data and who will use them, such questions must be answered and people be given the opportunity to consider what the Government propose.

It has become clear in recent months that the public lack confidence that the implementation of the care.data scheme as currently proposed would protect the data from inappropriate use, not least because of the point that my hon. Friend has just made. I am sure she would recall that we recently had a Health Committee session on this issue—in fact, the Minister was present—and certain assurances were given, not by the Minister but by one of his officials, that companies outside the United Kingdom would not have access to such data. The thought ran through my mind that many private health companies are global in their operations.

[Andy Burnham]

To add to the theme that my hon. Friend is developing, is not one of the problems with care.data that we have had so many statements from Ministers and officials that have not in the end come to be true? At the last Health questions, the Secretary of State said that a leaflet would be sent to every home in the land to explain what was happening. That also was not true. Does my hon. Friend agree that this is bringing the whole scheme into disrepute?

[Grahame M. Morris]

My right hon. Friend has hit the nail on the head, because there has been a catalogue of mismanagement. What we need to do if we believe in the importance of such a database is to ensure that we rebuild public trust. The Government have an opportunity to do that, but it will not be a simple matter. We have to look carefully at the implications of what the Government propose and give the necessary assurances.

The assurance that the official gave to the Health Committee had a gap that a coach and horses could be driven through. Several multinational companies could get round it by establishing a subsidiary based in the UK that would have access to the data, if that were the only safeguard.

[Mr Dorrell]

I want to return to a theme that we were discussing in an earlier debate this evening. The true nature of the hon. Gentleman’s concern is unclear. If his concern is that sensitive patient information should be made available only on the basis that the identity of the individual can never be traced and the data remain properly anonymised and confidential, I think that concern would be shared on both sides of the House. But is that his real concern, or is it that the information might be used by a private sector body for the purpose of improving the delivery of health care? I am not clear, provided that the information is anonymised and patient identity is properly secured, what his objection could be.

[Grahame M. Morris]

I thought I was being fairly clear. In the debate on the earlier group of amendments, we discussed the privatisation of the clinical commissioning function. My concern is that that would lead to greater fragmentation, not greater co-operation. On data sharing, I think it was my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall) who gave the example of a questionnaire she was asked to fill in by her GP, which contained questions relating to alcohol consumption, smoking and so on. If that information was made available to a private health care company and, as a consequence, premiums were increased, people would have concerns. The Minister said that that has been ruled out and that it would not happen, but it is an example of why such concerns have been raised.

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

It is very important for there to be as much protection for the individual and the patient as possible. I assure the hon. Gentleman that my medical records are particularly uninteresting, but I would not want them to be leaked to an insurance company seeking to make money out of them or trying to change my premium. I am sure that that is very important in people’s minds.

[Grahame M. Morris]

The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point which echoes a point made on the Labour Benches a few moments ago. The problem is that a number of private health care companies are also insurance companies, so it would be quite a task to ensure that data are not shared with companies that might have a commercial interest in them. To restrict access in the way we would all want is not as simple as the Government would have us believe.

[Andrew George]

The hon. Gentleman and I often agree on these issues, but I am slightly concerned. Of course we want reassurances, and while we have the pause we should seek further reassurances on the anonymisation of data and that they will not be misused. How far is he prepared to push this point? Is he prepared to push it to the extent that the initiative falls, with all the consequences for the lack of progress in advances in medical care? In 10 years’ time we could be talking about hundreds of thousands of lives that could have been saved as a result of pressing on with this very important development.

[Grahame M. Morris]

The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent point. It is not my intention to do that, but we have to recognise that the public awareness campaign—the Government’s early assurances about leaflets and letters—has been wholly inadequate. At a time when it is important for the Government to instil public confidence in the scheme, they keep doing things that undermine public confidence, for example by giving the hated company Atos—if you do not mind me using the term, Mr Speaker, because of the debacle in the Department for Work and Pensions—the contract to extract the data. There seems to have been a catalogue of errors.

I accept that this proposal has the potential to be a huge step forward. The Minister said it was not revolutionary, but I am quite often in favour of things that are revolutionary. It is revolutionary, because previous data collections from a hospital-based setting, from secondary care, have been largely episodic. This scheme will harvest data from GPs and primary care to follow the whole of the patient journey, and to identify trends and follow-ups. That is a revolutionary step forward, provided we have the necessary safeguards and assurances, and that we rebuild public trust. I am not suggesting that the scheme is unworkable and cannot be reformed, but there is a huge job to do to ensure that we restore public confidence.

[Barbara Keeley]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Grahame M. Morris]

I wanted to mention an example that has been presented to me in relation to rare illnesses. It is suggested that a patient could never be identified from the data, but identification might be possible in the case of very rare conditions, particularly if pharmaceutical companies had their own databases. We need some form of protection to cover those circumstances as well.

[Barbara Keeley]

I thank my hon. Friend: he is being very generous in giving way. Does he agree that scope is an issue? The Hospital Episode Statistics database was an administrative database, and that is what our data were being used for. My hon. Friend has made an important point about the loss of trust. When did any of us sign up to having our data used to recalculate the cost of insurance cover for long-term illness? When did we sign up to have it sold on a chargeable basis by BT and by MedRed, on its cloud system in the United States? Once control has gone, it is possible for the scope to vary all over the place.

[Grahame M. Morris]

That is a good point. It is very important for the Government to lay down parameters for the scope.

The sharing of medical data has a fantastic potential to do good, as long as the necessary safeguards are there, but if it is mishandled, it also has the potential to do great harm. Patient data consist of very confidential information, which could prove damaging to the public if it were to end up in the wrong hands. We have already seen examples of that. I share the public’s fear that the Government are not seeking appropriate safeguards in respect of highly personal and sensitive information. Despite the Minister’s assurances about new clause 34, I do not think that it goes far enough.

Let me return to the issue of accountability. The benefits for companies that seek to misuse or leak patient data, for example, are considerable. The Minister has ruled out insurance companies, but I am worried about private health care firms. The pharmaceutical industry could profit from the re-identification of patient records, and I believe that the absence of parliamentary accountability to which I referred earlier, and a lack of clear and harsh penalties for those who misuse data, are undermining trust in what could be a highly beneficial scheme. Subsection (2) of new clause 25 defines misuse, and subsection (3) gives an indication of the penalties that would be applied. I think that they might act as a deterrent.

[Mr Jamie Reed]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent, intelligent and informed speech. The charge has been made that pushing our proposals too far risks scuppering the project, but is it not the case that the more safeguards we can introduce to reassure the public, the better the prospects of its success will be—and, moreover, the greater the data sample will be, and the better the system will be as a result?

[Grahame M. Morris]

I entirely agree. I think that that is vital, because, as we have seen in the case of politicians following the expenses scandal, once public trust has been lost, it is a huge task to win that trust back. There is a mountain to be climbed. I therefore think it important that we get this right.

The Government have an opportunity to pause the implementation of the Bill in order to consult properly, and, in the Bill itself, to address issues that have been raised by Members in all parts of the House and by other interested parties. I believe that if there is to be public confidence in the scheme, the Government should make a gesture by supporting Labour’s new clauses, particularly new clause 25. Given that the misuse and identification of data are the prime concerns of the public, I think that it would be eminently sensible to make them an offence. That is not rocket science, is it? If that is the problem, why do we not address it directly by creating an offence? Similarly, if an organisation makes applications for data from the Health and Social Care Information Centre, it should have to disclose any previous convictions under that offence. I am a big supporter of transparency and the extension of freedom of information. Private health care companies should disclose information that is relevant in those circumstances.

It seems bizarre to insist that the public should allow their private information to be shared with organisations that are allowed to hide their chequered pasts in some cases behind the cloak of commercial confidentiality. Parliamentary accountability, too, should be introduced to the decision-making process. The Secretary of State should retain the duty to approve any applications. The buck should stop with the Secretary of State. If there is a serious commitment to win back the public’s trust on care.data, the buck should stop with the Secretary of State, rather than with a big and unaccountable quango.

It would be of great benefit to the public if data sharing were exercised in an accountable and secure manner. I have always been an advocate of investment in public health. For that to be effective, we need an evidence base on which to plan interventions. The scheme is set to be disrupted unless the Government can demonstrate that they are serious about protecting patients’ privacy.

[Oliver Colvile]

Does the hon. Gentleman think that there will be a problem with patients sharing that information with their pharmacists if that meant that they were going to get better more quickly?

[Grahame M. Morris]

On an individual basis, I do not see a problem with that. The problem arises when dealing with large volumes of harvested data that include not just primary care records of patients in the community but hospital records, where pharmaceutical companies are perhaps able to benefit. Whether that is in patients’ best interests needs further consideration. I do not think that there is any such concern about individual conversations with GPs or pharmacists, but there are still major holes in the Government’s proposals. They need to be tightened further. A good starting point would be Labour’s new clause 25.

[Paul Burstow]

The hon. Gentleman has been incredibly gracious in giving way on several occasions. He has said that new clause 25 should be commended. I wonder whether he has considered amendment (b), which suggests that one of the other issues about safeguarding data is people being satisfied of the competence of the organisations that will receive that data and that they comply fully with the data protection obligations.

[Grahame M. Morris]

I have considered that, and that is an important point. Compliance is important. Those issues should be addressed in the Bill. If we are to ensure that there is public trust, those points must be addressed.

[Mr Jamie Reed]

Does my hon. Friend share my concern and that of many GPs that the lack of necessary safeguards in the Bill may have an unintended consequence, particularly among the hardest to reach groups in society? Fear about the lack of safeguards in the Bill may stop them from accessing GPs and sharing their details and problems with them.

[Grahame M. Morris]

That is a huge danger. We have an opportunity to address that in this House this evening and when we consider the Bill further tomorrow. I personally am not advocating that people sign up to the opt-out clauses. That is important, but we need assurances to be able with confidence to support the Bill and the data collection proposals.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—