Amendments of the Law (Resolution of Silicon Valley Bank UK Limited) Order 2023

Baroness Penn Excerpts

Wednesday 19th April 2023 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Penn]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Amendments of the Law (Resolution of Silicon Valley Bank UK Limited) Order 2023.

Relevant document: 35th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee

[The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Baroness Penn) (Con)]

Noble Lords will be aware that Silicon Valley Bank UK Limited, or SVB UK, was sold on Monday 13 March to HSBC. Customers of SVB UK are now able to access their deposits and banking services as normal. This transaction was facilitated by the Bank of England, in consultation with the Treasury, using powers granted by the Banking Act 2009. In doing so, we limited risks to our tech and life sciences sector and safeguarded some of the UK’s most promising companies, protecting customers, financial stability and the taxpayer. We were able to achieve this outcome—the best possible outcome—in short order, without any taxpayer money or government guarantees. There has been no bailout, with SVB UK instead sold to a private sector purchaser. This solution is a win for taxpayers, customers and the banking system.

SVB UK has become a subsidiary of HSBC’s ring-fenced bank. Ring-fencing requires banking groups that hold over £25 billion of retail deposits to separate their retail banking from their investment banking activities. The regime provides a four-year transition period for an entity acquired as part of a resolution process before it becomes subject to the ring-fencing requirements. As a result of this existing provision in legislation, SVB UK is not currently subject to ring-fencing requirements. However, HSBC UK, SVB UK’s parent company, remains subject to the ring-fencing regime.

To facilitate this transaction, the Economic Secretary to the Treasury laid in both Houses of Parliament on Monday 13 March a statutory instrument using the powers under the Banking Act 2009 to broaden an existing exemption in ring-fencing legislation with regard to HSBC’s purchase of SVB UK. This is the first time that the Treasury was required to use these powers since the resolution of Dunfermline Building Society in 2009. I note that the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee has raised this statutory instrument as an instrument of interest in its 35th report, published on 30 March.

This exemption allows HSBC’s ring-fenced bank to provide below-market-rate intragroup funding to SVB UK. This was crucial for the success of HSBC’s takeover of SVB UK, because it ensured that HSBC was able to provide the necessary funds to its new subsidiary. HSBC has since stated publicly that it has so far provided approximately £2 billion of liquidity to SVB UK, money that it needed to continue to meet the needs of its customers. The Bank of England and the Prudential Regulation Authority fully support this modification to the ring-fencing regime as a necessary step to facilitate the sale.

In view of the urgency, and given that this statutory instrument was crucial in enabling the sale, the Treasury determined that it was necessary to lay this instrument using the “made affirmative” procedure under the powers in the Banking Act 2009. Parliament provided the Treasury with these powers for exactly these situations: recognising that exceptional circumstances can arise where the Government must take emergency action in the interests of financial stability, depositors and taxpayers.

The statutory instrument also makes a number of modifications to the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 in relation to the rule-making powers of the Prudential Regulation Authority and the Financial Conduct Authority. Specifically, these rule-making powers are modified to ensure that the regulators can exercise them effectively, where these powers relate to the Bank of England’s transfer of SVB UK to HSBC and write-down of SVB UK’s shareholders and certain bondholders. The statutory instrument also waives the requirement for the regulators to consult on certain rule changes related to the sale.

In addition to the statutory instrument we are debating today, the Government will also lay a further statutory instrument to make further changes to the ring-fencing regime with regard to HSBC’s purchase of SVB UK. This is to permit SVB UK to remain exempt from the ring-fencing rules beyond the four-year transition period, subject to certain conditions. Unlike the legislation we are debating today, this second exemption is not required immediately and will be introduced in due course. The second exemption was also crucial to the success of the sale of SVB UK, as it ensures that it can remain a commercially viable stand-alone business as part of the HSBC Group.

A clear determination was made by the Bank of England and supported by the Government that these amendments were crucial to facilitating the purchase of SVB UK by HSBC. The UK has a world-leading tech sector with a dynamic start-up and scale-up ecosystem, and the Government are pleased that a private sector purchaser has been found. Therefore, I hope noble Lords will join me in supporting this legislation. I beg to move.

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as a shareholder in UK banks which are subject to the ring-fencing regime. My husband and I hold shares in HSBC, which will benefit from this order, and in both NatWest and Lloyds, which are subject to the ring-fencing rules but do not derive a benefit from this order. I think my registered interests in this case probably cancel each other out.

I should say that I have never been a big fan of ring-fencing. The triple whammy of an electrified ring-fence, elaborate resolution planning and higher capital and liquidity requirements have imposed a very high set of costs on UK banks which can in the long run result only in disbenefits for UK bank customers —that is, all of us. I do, however, believe passionately in fair competition and level playing fields, and my concern about this order—and, more so, the one that we are promised that will come later—is that it distorts competition and creates an unlevel playing field by creating unfair advantage for one particular bank in relation to the ring-fencing rules.

I completely understand that the Bank of England had to operate under pressure to achieve a sale of Silicon Valley Bank over a weekend and that avoided having to place it into an insolvency procedure, and we owe the Bank a debt of gratitude for what it achieved over that weekend. But there are some aspects of the transaction—and therefore this order—which I find mysterious. I am also, as I said, concerned that HSBC has obtained an unfair competitive advantage compared with other UK banks, so I have some questions to put to my noble friend.

First, SVB UK is not a ring-fenced bank under UK legislation and it remains outside that legislation. Why did the Bank not agree to sell the bank to HSBC itself rather than to HSBC’s UK ring-fenced subsidiary? Had it done that, I do not believe that any special legislation would have been necessary. HSBC operates a narrow definition of ring-fencing—unlike other UK ring-fenced banks—such that the majority of its commercial customers are serviced within the non-ring-fenced part of HSBC. Why was it decided to place Silicon Valley Bank UK into the ownership of the ring-fenced bank? Would it not have been more appropriate to have put it somewhere else within the HSBC Group along with other commercial customers?

Secondly, what activities of Silicon Valley Bank UK would disqualify it from being housed within a ring-fenced bank? Commercial banking business can be satisfactorily included within a ring-fenced bank provided that the business within the ring-fenced bank is in effect plain vanilla business—that is, conventional lending and very simple derivatives, which are allowed. What does Silicon Valley Bank UK do which would disqualify it from being placed properly within the UK ring-fence of HSBC, and what policy grounds make it necessary to allow the ring-fenced bank to own this kind of business when it cannot carry out that business itself?

Thirdly, the Minister has said that the order was necessary to allow HSBC’s ring-fenced bank to provide funding out of the ring-fence at preferential rates to Silicon Valley Bank UK. Why was this funding not provided out of HSBC’s other, non-ring-fenced resources? Of course, I can see the attraction to HSBC of using the cheap funds that it has from its ring-fenced depositors, but the ring-fence regime was set up precisely to stop such funds leaching out of the ring-fence. Related to that, is there any limit on the amount of funding that HSBC UK can provide from within the ring-fence to Silicon Valley Bank in breach of the ring-fencing philosophy, and if there is not a limit, why not? Are there any limits to the generosity with which the ring-fenced bank can provide the funds, since it is going to be providing at rates below market rates? Will there be any limit to that degree of discount that it will allow, and again, if not, why not?

Fourthly, can the Minister confirm that Silicon Valley Bank UK will not be allowed to form part of HSBC UK’s Bank Domestic Liquidity Sub-group, or DoLSub, and that liquidity will be monitored separately for the ring-fenced and non-ring-fenced parts of HSBC UK? If that is not the case, can the Minister explain the position on how liquidity is to be managed and monitored within the ring-fenced bank and its new subsidiary?

Lastly, it is clear that the intention is to provide some long-term exemptions from the ring-fencing regime, and the Minister referred to this. I appreciate that the precise details may not yet be finalised, but will the Minister set out what exemptions are likely to involve? I believe that the Minister said that this would be in a separate statutory instrument and therefore Parliament would be able to look at that, but it would be good if she could confirm that. My main concern when we come to the second order is whether it will be fair and reasonable for ring-fencing exemptions to be provided on a long-term basis, which disadvantages other UK banks which have to operate completely within the ring-fence rules. Put another way, when considering the case for HSBC to be allowed special treatment, will the Government ensure that they consider the case for equivalent relaxations to be more generally available? I look forward to my noble friend the Minister’s response.

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[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for introducing this order. I begin by reiterating the Labour Party’s thanks to the officials at the Treasury, the Bank of England and the regulators to secure a rescue deal for the UK arm of Silicon Valley Bank. While there will be important lessons to learn from SVB’s collapse, it was vital that swift action was taken to preserve financing for the life sciences and tech companies that will play such an important role in our future economic growth.

I also thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Kramer and Lady Noakes, for bringing out areas of concern, which I certainly have not seen raised in the same sharp relief. I hope that the Minister will be able to give us some feel as to the extent to which this reach of the ring-fence will be of significance or not, and, if it is significant, why it is intended to be made perpetual by a subsequent order. Equally, when we are discussing lessons learned, the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, shone a light on the issue of the speed of collapse. The physical queues outside Northern Rock created time; today, very little time need be created between an area of significant concern turning into total collapse. I hope that the regulators, when doing a proper lessons-learned exercise on this will ponder on that point, to see what, if anything, we need to do to be better able to manage the rate of collapse that is potentially available.

The collapse of SVB was the catalyst for several other major events in the global financial system, including the very serious difficulties faced by Credit Suisse. In many senses, the UK regulatory system has functioned as hoped, which we welcome. It certainly makes the many hours spent on previous legislation worthwhile. Financial institutions and regulators in other countries have taken their own steps in recent weeks to deal with issues with entities in their own jurisdictions. The collective action seems to have calmed the markets, which is important for us all. However, I hope that the Minister can assure us that the Treasury, the Bank and the regulators continue to monitor the situation very closely, and that they stand ready to act, should that be required. With inflation still in double digits, and with the implications that is likely to have on interest rates in the short to medium term, will the Treasury finally commission a review of the risks that this could present to the financial system?

On SVB itself, the Government have thus far been unable to provide a proper justification for exempting the bank from ring-fencing requirements, which makes the four-year transition period turning into a perpetual one all the more puzzling. In another place, the Minister sought to reassure colleagues that they need not worry about the potential implications of this exception, as the number of SVB UK customers is low, particularly as a percentage of HSBC’s total client base. Is that really the most that the Treasury can say, or does the Minister have more to offer, given that this debate comes three and a half weeks after the Commons one?

Another question in that debate was on potential reform to ring-fencing requirements in this country. Andrew Griffith promised that

“there will not be any tinkering, but there might … be appropriate reforms”.—[Official Report, Commons, First Delegated Legislation Committee, 27/3/23; col. 7.]

I am not sure that those words are particularly reassuring. We expect news on those reforms in advance of the Autumn Statement, but can the Minister be a little more specific about dates and processes? How swiftly would any reforms be implemented once announced, for example? Will changes require primary legislation? If so, could this come in the Financial Services and Markets Bill, or would the Government bring forward a further Bill?

The action taken to protect SVB UK worked because it provided certainty. Customers of that bank knew within days that they would be able to continue their relationship with it, because of the acquisition by HSBC. However, in other areas, certainty is in short supply. The Prime Minister says he has a plan to halve inflation and bring interest rates down, but inflation remains in double digits and the Monetary Policy Committee is expected to announce a 12th consecutive rate hike. Under this Government, our economy is weaker, prices are out of control and never have people paid so much to get so little in return.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their detailed questions on this statutory instrument. While everyone agreed that we reached a good resolution in this instance, it is absolutely right that we look at how it was delivered in detail and how we should reflect from this instance on the resolution regime in our wider regime. The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, asked explicitly—but I think all noble Lords wanted to know—what the Government will do to ensure that we can learn lessons from the events around SVB UK. The Treasury and the Bank of England are working together to ensure that we properly reflect on these events and will consider how best to draw on the lessons learned and share them as needed in future.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, remarked on wider financial stability events, including Credit Suisse. I reassure him that the UK financial sector is fundamentally strong. The resolution of SVB UK on 13 March highlights how the resolution regime can be effectively used to protect UK financial stability. However, we continue to monitor the situation closely and remain in close contact with the Bank of England, the Prudential Regulation Authority, the Financial Conduct Authority and relevant foreign and international authorities. We are absolutely committed to protecting the stability of the UK banking sector, which is key for supporting economic growth and for the UK’s world-leading financial sector.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, also asked whether we would commission a review of the risks that higher interest rates pose to the financial system. I reassure noble Lords that the Bank of England already has in place processes to monitor and assess risks to our financial sector and banking system. In particular, each year, the Bank of England carries out a stress test of the major UK banks, which incorporates a severe but plausible adverse economic scenario. The 2022 stress test scenario includes a rapid rise in interest rates, with the UK bank rate assumed to rise to 6% in early 2023, as well as higher global interest rates.

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[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

I do not want to pre-empt the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, in trying to press her question, but it seemed to me that she was asking why was the ring-fenced part of the bank used to make this purchase? HSBC presumably had a very wide range of options of pieces of corporate structure that it could have used. There may be a very good answer to that, such as “This was the only one we could do over a weekend”, or something. However, the Minister also said that it was explicit in the agreement that the extended exemption would be a part of the package. That has not yet gone through a parliamentary process, and it will, but it is clear that the Government have taken a position that they will support that extended exemption. There is stuff going on here that we are trying to unpick, and I just wonder whether the Minister can help us to do that.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I was only at the beginning of my attempt to answer my noble friend Lady Noakes’s questions. I think that I will cover a fair amount of ground in dealing with them, but I am also very happy to follow up in writing.

I moved between the permanent exemption and the intrabank lending, so I will deal with the intrabank lending question first, then I will move on to the matter of a subsequent SI. As I say, the provisions in today’s SI were essential for the sale and allowed for the provision of around £2 billion of liquidity. My noble friend asked whether this exemption was permanent and whether there was any limit to the funding that HSBC could provide through this route. This exemption is permanent to ensure that HSBC can continue to provide liquidity support, should that be needed at any point in the future. There is no limit to the amount of funding that can be provided through this route. The PRA has stated that it has the tools to effectively supervise HSBC, even with this exemption in place.

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[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

In bringing this back to us, as the Minister will have to do for the second SI, and responding to these questions, can we have some analysis of the competitive advantage that HSBC will get out of this transaction?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

That point was also raised by my noble friend, and I was hoping to come to it. Whether my answers mean that we will not have a further discussion on it either on the Bill or when the future SI comes forward remains to be seen. I shall try to address some of the points around the ring-fenced bank, the need to go down that route and whether SVB UK needed to be purchased by HSBC’s ring-fenced bank. That was a commercial decision made by HSBC, and it would not be appropriate for me to comment further on it.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

I am sorry to interrupt, but the only rationale I can think of is that from a ring-fenced bank you have that very cheap source of funding known as bank checking accounts and savings accounts. That precisely gives the commercial advantage to HSBC that the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, is describing. Is that the only basis on which the Government were able to negotiate the deal: to make sure that the ownership of Silicon Valley Bank and the business it would pursue in future would be advantaged compared to similar activities by its rival banks? Is that what we are talking about here?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I am afraid I have to disappoint noble Lords and say that I have no further comment to make on the decision to purchase it by the ring-fenced bank. It was a commercial decision for HSBC.

My noble friend had some other questions on the use of the ring-fenced bank. She asked what activities SVB UK undertakes that are not allowed under the ring-fence regime. SVB UK provides lending to certain types of financial institutions, such as venture capital funds, which is not allowed under the ring-fencing regime. It also provides certain equity-related products in relation to its lending, which is also not allowed under the ring-fence regime. She also asked whether I could confirm that SVB UK will not be added to HSBC’s domestic liquidity subgroup. That is a matter for the regulator to decide.

All three noble Lords asked about the implications for competition and whether this move has given a competitive advantage to HSBC. The exemption is limited to the acquisition of SVB UK by HSBC, and was necessary to facilitate this acquisition—something I think all noble Lords welcomed. As Sam Woods explained at the TSC recently, a necessary condition of HSBC moving forward was that it could keep the entirety of SVB UK as one business. The value was in the integrated nature of the business, and HSBC could make that work only if it had it as a subsidiary of HSBC UK, the ring-fenced bank.

It is also worth reiterating that SVB UK remains very small compared to HSBC. Its assets amount to around £9 billion compared to HSBC’s $3 trillion group balance sheet.

To come on to the second statutory instrument and the permanent exemption from ring-fencing for SVB UK, the second exemption was also crucial, as it ensures that SVB UK can remain a commercially viable stand-alone business, as part of HSBC UK. It will be subject to conditions, which are intended to ensure that the exemption is limited to what was needed to facilitate the sale of SVB UK. We will set out details of those conditions alongside the second statutory instrument, which noble Lords will have the opportunity to debate. Alongside that, as I said earlier, the PRA outlined in its response to the Treasury Select Committee that it has a range of tools that it can and will draw on to ensure the effective supervision of HSBC and the protection of retail deposits.

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

Can I just clarify something with my noble friend? I can just about understand why, for the transaction to happen over the weekend, HSBC was allowed to bully the other participants into breaking the ring-fence rules to allow it to be set up. However, allowing a permanent change means that the ring-fenced bank will be allowed to provide liquidity, and presumably capital as well, on advantageous terms to a bank which can be used as a growth vehicle within HSBC, thereby increasing the risk to ring-fenced funds. I understand why you might have to do that initially, to get the deal through, but I do not understand whether there are any limits at all on what can happen after the acquisition has happened. These permissions have been set up in a way, and are likely to continue in a way, that will allow Silicon Valley Bank to continue to operate in a way that is completely antithetical to the ring-fenced banking regime. As I have said, I am not a fan of it, but I have a strong objection to one bank being allowed to operate in a distinctly different way from other banks.

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[Baroness Penn (Con)]

In relation to the provision in this statutory instrument, my understanding is that the exemption to this aspect of the ring-fencing regime is on a permanent basis. The subsequent SI that we will debate will have conditions applied to it, and we will set out those conditions at the time.

I refer my noble friend and the noble Baroness to the comments from the regulators when they were asked about this issue. The PRA was confident that it

“has a range of tools that it can and will draw on to ensure the effective supervision of HSBC and protection of retail deposits”.

As the noble Baroness mentioned, that is one of the aims of the ring-fencing regime.

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[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

Can the Minister confirm whether I have understood this correctly? My understanding was that we are assured that any impact on the ring-fence regime will be brought about through primary legislation.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

It is important to distinguish between the near-term reforms that the Skeoch review recommended—I listed some examples of what can be taken forward through secondary legislation—and any more fundamental changes, which are the subject of the questions in the call for evidence, which would need primary legislation to be amended to take forward. So it is possible to make alterations to the ring-fence regime through secondary legislation; in fact, the Government have been quite clear about their intention to do so. We will consult on that before we do so, and we will set it out then. However, the call for evidence sets out more fundamental options, and that would require primary legislation. So there is a mix, but anything such as abolishing the ring-fencing regime, or other more fundamental changes, will be set out in primary legislation. I hope that provides sufficient clarity on that point.

The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, asked about the interaction between SVB UK and its parent in the US. I will write to her on that subject. It was a UK subsidiary, was subject to UK regulation, and had its own requirements under that regulation. However, to provide absolute clarity on that point, I will write to her. I will also look back on this debate because it has been detailed and technical—as well as very important—and will endeavour, where I can, to improve on my answers to noble Lords in writing. However, there may be areas where there is nothing further to add, even if that is not to the satisfaction of noble Lords.

It is worth concluding on the more positive note that most noble Lords started with: that the outcome of the Government’s action, together with the Bank of England, to facilitate the sale of SVB UK protected its customers and UK taxpayers. It was a good result in that respect, but the Government will continue to monitor the financial system and consider ongoing events. The final note of reassurance I offer is that the Bank of England has confirmed that the UK banking system remains safe, sound and well capitalised. I beg to move.

Motion agreed.

Arrivals Duty Free at UK Airports

Baroness Penn Excerpts

Thursday 30th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Goddard of Stockport]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the (1) jobs created, (2) revenue generated, and (3) tax receipts generated, by the introduction of arrivals duty free at UK airports.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Baroness Penn) (Con)]

Duty free on arrival would place additional pressure on the public finances, to which excise duty makes a significant contribution. Any loss in tax revenue would have to be balanced by a reduction in public spending, increased borrowing or increased taxation elsewhere. Although there are no plans to introduce such a scheme, the Government keep all taxes under review.

[Lord Goddard of Stockport (LD)]

I thank the Minister for that Answer. Is she aware that arrival duty-free stores have had considerable success in Norway and Switzerland, where they provide additional commercial revenue streams for the airport to supply growth, and that passenger spending would increase by 30% if they were brought in in this country? Will the Minister ask the Treasury to commit to discuss arrival duty free with airports and ports and explore the wide-ranging economic benefits for the UK through consultation?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, we welcome engagement on this issue, and we have heard the case put forward for duty free on arrival. As I have noted, the Government believe it would place additional pressure on public finances. One challenge is that any potential uplift in spending potentially displaces spending with other domestic duty-paid retailers and therefore could compete against them. The Government would also need to be confident there was adequate infrastructure and resourcing to combat fraud and ensure compliance. We have no plans to consult on duty free on arrival, but we keep all taxes under review and we consider all available evidence as part of the tax-making policy process.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, I am delighted that the Government are not looking at this but, if they were to do so, would they look at the alcohol harm that could be caused by the increase of cheap alcohol?

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[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, public health considerations are a consideration in the decision-making process. I am sure the noble Baroness will welcome both the changes that we have made to the system for alcohol duty, relating it to strength, and the decision in the Budget around uprating.

[Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con)]

My Lords, Brexit has presented the travel industry with a wealth of opportunities, and the clear advantages of permitting duty-free purchase on arrival into UK airports would provide us with a level playing field along with our global competitors in this area. Will the Minister urge the Secretary of State and the Chancellor to reverse the current situation, which is damaging our tourist sector and our world-class retail sector?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I have set out the position on duty free on arrival, but of course my noble friend is right that, following our exit from the EU, we have been able to introduce changes. One of those changes has been outbound duty-free sales of alcohol and tobacco for passengers travelling to the EU from Great Britain, including by rail and on board cruise ships. That is a new opportunity for retailers to offer that service.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I think what the noble Lord, Lord Goddard, said was very sensible and I hope there will be a proper review of this matter. As the noble Baroness is the Minister who has been responding to me on my duty-free Question, could she now please give us a plain and simple answer for why, if Northern Ireland is still part of the EU, duty free cannot be got from Northern Ireland to Great Britain? More importantly, if you can get duty free from anywhere in Great Britain to the rest of the EU, why can we not get it from Belfast?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, Northern Ireland enjoys frictionless trade with both the rest of the UK and the EU, and the Government are committed to ensuring that that remains the case. Introducing duty-free shopping for goods moving between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK or the EU would undermine that commitment.

[Lord Vaizey of Didcot (Con)]

My Lords, it may well be that the introduction of duty free has been one of the fantastic benefits of Brexit, but it seems odd that the Government have taken the opportunity of Brexit to get rid of tax-free shopping. That means that wealthy tourists who used to come here and shop now go to France, Germany, Spain and Italy. It hits our regional airports and our small manufacturers. The change has been opposed even by the Scottish National Party, which must be a clue that the Government have got this catastrophically wrong. Will the Minister keep this policy under review and eventually change her mind?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My noble friend is a persistent campaigner on this issue. He is right that, in leaving the EU, we were not able to maintain the previous policy of offering tax-free shopping to non-EU citizens only; it would have to be extended to all visitors, which would come with a significant cost. However, I reassure my noble friend that we keep all taxes under review, and we welcome representations to help to inform future decisions on tax policy.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government were slow to back the tourism sector during the coronavirus pandemic, U-turning on a special deal for airports and airlines and missing the opportunity to tie support to green initiatives. Their flip-flopping on the issue of tax-free shopping for international visitors and slowness on the issue of arrivals duty free have led many in the sector to question whether the Treasury truly understands the challenges that the industry faces. What plans, if any, do the Government have to bring forward a cross-departmental strategy for boosting British tourism?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I reassure the noble Lord that the Government fully understand the contribution that tourism makes to our economy. To pick up his point about the Covid pandemic, through the pandemic the UK Government provided over £37 billion to support the tourism, leisure and hospitality sector in the form of grants, loans and tax breaks. Since then, the Government have contributed to various successful campaigns to stimulate recovery, including the £10 million National Lottery Days Out scheme and efforts by VisitBritain to deliver its international marketing campaign.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, following the question from the noble Lord, Lord Vaizey, who mentioned the Scottish National Party, is the Minister aware that in Scotland we have had a Minister for Tourism—which includes what we are talking about in this Question today—since 1999, but the current Government of Scotland have made no such appointment? Instead, they have appointed a Minister for Independence, when the Prime Minister has rightly ruled out a referendum. As a Treasury Minister, will she get her officials to look into this unauthorised expenditure by the Scottish Government?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I will say that it shows that the Scottish Government’s priorities lie in the wrong place, instead of seeking to address the priorities of the people of Scotland, whether it is tourism or improving their health and education systems. I think the people of Scotland would welcome a greater focus on those issues and less of a focus on something on which we recently had a referendum that settled the issue.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, further to the answer that my noble friend has given, surely this is a question of the propriety of the use of public funds. The Scottish Government are involved in spending public money on a matter for which they have no rights. If these people were in local government, they would be being surcharged.

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[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I will repeat what I said to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, that this absolutely demonstrates that the priorities of the Scottish Government lie in the wrong place and are not aligned with the people in Scotland.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, returning to the abolition in 2020-21 of the right to reclaim VAT on purchases made in high-street shops, I think the Minister said that nowadays that would cost a considerable amount. But the tourism and retail industries contest that claim. It is two years since that decision was made. Surely the Treasury has up-to-date details.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right that there are direct costs of offering any scheme through VAT being refunded but there may be indirect benefits in terms of stimulating tourism and other spending. The Treasury seeks to take both those issues into account when looking at these issues. When the decision was taken to withdraw VAT-free shopping for visitors, the Treasury also held a round table with the industry to hear those views. As I said to my noble friend Lord Vaizey, we continue to welcome representations to help to inform future decisions.

Co-operatives, Mutuals and Friendly Societies Bill

Baroness Penn Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 24th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Baroness Penn) (Con)]

My Lords, all speakers in this debate have recognised the diversity and value that mutuals bring to our economy. At their core, mutuals give people a stake in how businesses and organisations should be run. Their unique, purpose-led, member-focused approach provides an alternative model of economic organisation and activity across all industries, from financial service providers to housing, agriculture, manufacturing and—as the noble Lord, Lord Mann, noted—sports clubs, down to community assets such as locally owned libraries and pubs.

As the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, described to the House, he has a keen appreciation of the importance of mutuality as a committed member of the Co-operative Group and a non-executive director of the London Mutual Credit Union, one of the largest credit unions in London. I thank him for lending his wealth of experience and expertise as he leads the Bill through this House on behalf of the honourable Member for Preston, to whom plaudits must go for the Bill before us today.

I also take a moment to acknowledge the spirit of cross-party collaboration of which this Bill is a product, particularly that which was fostered between the honourable Member for Preston and my honourable friends the Economic Secretary to the Treasury and his predecessor, the honourable Member for North East Bedfordshire, which saw the Bill move unopposed through all its stages in the House of Commons. Throughout, their endeavours have been backed by significant levels of support and input from the sector itself, particularly the trade bodies Co-operatives UK and the Association of Financial Mutuals, and the think tank Mutuo.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, clearly explained the positive change this Bill seeks to deliver for co-operatives, friendly societies and mutual insurers. This country is rightly recognised as the birthplace of the modern mutual movement. It is right that we protect this legacy by equipping co-operatives, friendly societies and mutual insurers with a stronger option in law to safeguard their funds for the future so that they can continue to contribute value to society and their members for years to come. The merits of the Bill are clear and roundly endorsed by the sector itself. I am pleased to be able to give the Government’s full backing to it. Within the limited legislative time available to us, I look forward to the Bill progressing swiftly.

My noble friend Lord Bourne asked how the provisions in this Bill can be taken forward in Northern Ireland given that co-operatives legislation is devolved and there is no Executive in place. Northern Ireland is governed best when governed locally. The Government believe that this is the moment for the restoration of the devolved institutions. It would be for a restored Executive to take forward any similar legislation, but I assure my noble friend that my officials have had regular dialogue on mutuals issues with their counterparts in Northern Ireland and would be happy to continue that engagement in future.

As noble Lords have noted, the Government’s commitment to this sector is not limited to this Bill. Through the Financial Services and Markets Bill, a number of important amendments are being made to the Credit Unions Act 1979 to support the future growth, diversification and development of credit unions. These reforms include empowering credit unions in Great Britain to offer a wider range of products and services, creating a more agile and competitive sector, which can better adapt to changing market trends to deliver for its members.

Furthermore, the Government are delivering for building societies—mutual savings providers and mortgage lenders—which are not included in the scope of this Bill. As the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Bolton, noted, and as announced in the Edinburgh reforms package, the Government will in due course bring forward legislation to amend the Building Societies Act 1986 following the conclusion of our consultation. The amendments will help to establish a legislative framework that is fit for the future and promote a level playing field for building societies to grow and compete.

The Bill is focused on safeguarding the positions that mutuals hold today, but we must also focus on the future. To respond to my noble friend Lord Bourne, my noble friend Lord Naseby—to whom I pay tribute for his long record of support for mutuals—and the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Bolton, I say that we are in active discussions with the Law Commission on options to proceed with reviews of both the Co-operative and Community Benefit Societies Act 2014 and the Friendly Societies Act 1992, with a view to launching those reviews in the next financial year. As my noble friend Lord Naseby noted, modernised, fit-for-purpose legal frameworks will enable friendly societies and co-operatives to seize opportunity and grow.

All in this House appreciate the potential of modern mutuality. Mutuals are invested in the success of their members and the local authorities where they operate. Because of that, they can be a real asset in our mission to level up and spread economic opportunity across every region of this country. In the meantime, I look forward to working with noble Lords to ensure the successful passage of the Bill, which is one important step along the road to reform for the mutual sector.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Baroness Penn Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 23rd March 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

We do not have a fixed view on this proposal and therefore will listen to the response of the Government. At an individual level, when invited to pay my off-sets to British Airways, I am deeply suspicious of them making any useful contribution. My general view on this Bill is that good regulation is important, because the problem with the financial services industry is that any areas of weakness can escalate into a significant wider impact. I take the point that this area of activity will almost certainly expand and there is a good prima facie case that it should be regulated.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Baroness Penn) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government recognise the potential for off-setting to enable businesses to address emissions that cannot be reduced through decarbonisation strategies. As the Climate Change Committee has set out, they can play an important role in the transition to net zero.

Done well, and centred around high integrity, climate and nature off-sets through voluntary carbon credits can increase climate ambition, help mobilise finance to developing countries and provide a credible tool for the 1.5 degree transition. Done badly, and without integrity at their core, the potential for “greenwashing” clearly exists. Therefore, it is important that the voluntary carbon credits used by companies reflect genuinely additional removal of or reduction in greenhouse gas emissions.

The Government recognise that it is important to ensure the integrity of these markets if they are to play a role in mobilising investment. Concerns around the integrity of carbon and nature markets, from the supply of voluntary credits, their trading and green claims made by buyers through offsetting, must be addressed.

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[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I do not formally have a view on these amendments. It seems that they would have wide-ranging implications, and I shall consult with colleagues throughout Parliament about how we should come back to this issue. If a piece of legislation is proposed and supported by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, and the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, you have to think that it is pretty wide-ranging—in fact, close to impossible. Whether this is the right place to address this issue is a much bigger question than whether it is a good idea. It seems a pretty good idea, but I shall listen to the Minister’s response to the key point about the right place and the right mechanism.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, these amendments would introduce new parliamentary procedures when exercising the powers in the Bill, and the Government do not believe that they are necessary.

The Government have worked hard to ensure that every power in the Bill is appropriately scoped and justified. This was recognised by the DPRRC, which praised the Treasury for

“a thorough and helpful delegated powers memorandum.”

The DPRRC has not recommended any changes to the procedures governing the powers in the Bill. That may, in part, answer the question from the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, about the right place. I have worked on enough Bills to know that that is not a frequent conclusion from the Delegated Powers Committee.

This includes the powers in relation to retained EU law. While they are necessarily broad, they are restricted in a number of important ways. First, they are governed by a set of principles that are based on the regulators’ statutory objectives. Secondly, they are limited in what they can be used for. For example, they cannot be used to create new offences. Thirdly, the powers over retained EU law are strictly limited to a subset of legislation. They can be used only to modify or restate retained EU law in financial services legislation, as set out in Schedule 1. Finally, only a small amount of primary legislation is included in the scope of this power, and it is all listed in Schedule 1, Part 4.

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[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

Could I ask a clarification of the Minister—I know that I have not participated? Has she just confirmed that in the Government’s view statutory instruments will indeed be making policy change? That would be important for us to understand. I believe that is what she has just said, but I thought I should confirm it.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I can only repeat to the noble Baroness my words, which were that consultation and informal engagement, including on draft statutory instruments, will take place where there is a material impact or policy change.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

If my noble friend is saying what the noble Baroness asked, she is making a very serious change. To object to the changes being recommended on the basis that this is the wrong place seems to me to be quite difficult to uphold.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The Government will make those changes only within the agreed scope set out in the Bill. That is perhaps why the DPRRC was content with the approach that they were taking.

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

Does my noble friend accept that the specification in Clause 3 allows for very significant changes to be made? There are many heads under which the Government could fit a change in policy, and that policy change could be significant in the context of the restatement of EU law.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The intention is to allow for the restatement within EU law or to adapt it to a situation or circumstances within the UK. As I have said, in undertaking that work the Government will seek to undertake a combination of formal consultation and informal engagement appropriate to the changes being made. As set out in the Government’s policy statement on the repeal of retained EU law in financial services, the Government aim to balance the need to deliver much-needed reforms with the need to consult industry and stakeholders. They will take the decision on the approach to this on a case-by-case basis.

I wanted to address my noble friend’s specific question on the prospectus regime. The Government intend—

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

Would the noble Baroness accept that we have heard that speech before? With every complex Bill where we have sought ways to have more control over statutory instruments, we get the same speech—that it has all been worked through, that the constraints are there and so on. Those of us who have to sit through statutory instruments are growing more and more uncomfortable at the increasing number of occasions when we want more involvement and commitment. We want a situation where some variation in the instruments would be possible and this is a way forward. It may not be the right way, but this is an area of powerful area in the House—the relationship between Parliament and the Executive.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, I believe, referred to two pieces of work that looked at the wider concern around procedures when it comes to statutory instruments and the House’s involvement and ability to respond to them. I can talk only in relation to the Bill before us. Our approach is consistent with the policy approach to the regulation of financial services that the Government have set out and consulted on—the FSMA model. That delegates some policy-making both to the Treasury and then, significantly, to the regulators. In the context of the Bill, we are comfortable that our approach is appropriate to the model of regulation that we are advocating in these circumstances. I recognise the wider debate but, in the context of the Bill, we are confident that our approach is right and appropriate.

Coming to my noble friend’s specific question, I think the concern is around the definition of “securities” in the prospectus regime. The Government intend to include certain non-transferrable securities within the scope of the new public offer regime that is being developed as part of the review of the prospectus regime, which delivers on a recommendation of Dame Elizabeth Gloster’s review of the collapse of London Capital & Finance. We intend to capture mini-bonds and other similar non-transferable securities that may cause harm to investors if their offer is not subject to greater regulation.

The Government are keen to ensure that business that does not affect retail investors or is already regulated elsewhere, such as trading in over-the-counter derivatives, is not unintentionally disrupted by the reformed regime. We have been engaging with stakeholders on this point to understand the concerns of industry, and we are considering what changes we can make to the statutory instrument to address them.

The Government do not agree that the use of the super-affirmative procedure in this case is appropriate. Examples where it has been used include legislative reform orders made under the Regulatory Reform Act 2001 and remedial orders made under the Human Rights Act 1998. In both cases, the powers in question can be used very broadly over any primary legislation, due to the nature of the situations that they are intended to address. The delegated powers in this Bill are not comparable with these powers, and I have already explained how the powers over retained EU law are restricted and appropriately scoped. Therefore, in the case of the Financial Services and Markets Bill, we are confident that normal parliamentary procedures remain appropriate. I therefore ask the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Sharkey (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this short debate. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, about being able to amend SIs. It is a complicated and far-reaching issue and necessarily involves the House of Commons, but we need to find a mechanism for consulting all the interested parties and formulating a plan for reform. The Minister has not mentioned this, but, as I mentioned in my speech, this is to do with the balance of power between the Executive and Parliament. Many of our committees’ reports tell us in dramatic terms that the balance of power has recently shifted very significantly towards the Executive. To change that, we need to do something about our ability to scrutinise work that comes before us. That includes being able to amend it and not relying on a toothless system of negative and affirmative SIs, and it relies on being able to amend constructively regulations that might come before us.

As the SLSC said, it is clear that there is a need for such a mechanism to amend SIs and that finding a path to this fairly quickly is important. I agree with the suggestion by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas, that here and now is a pretty good place to start thinking hard about what we do before we get to Report. It is true that the volume of skeleton Bills continues to increase, as does the abuse of delegated powers in a more general sense, and I cannot see it spontaneously decreasing, unless we do something about it.

As to Amendments 243A and 243B—the super-affirmative amendments—the case for them has been accepted by all speakers, except the Minister. We shall definitely want to revisit the issue on Report. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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Moved by

[Baroness Penn]

242: Clause 76, page 89, line 36, after “Act” insert “, or under any other enactment,”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment and the amendment at page 89, line 37, would allow any provision that may be made by regulations subject to the negative procedure under this Act, or under any other enactment, to be made in regulations under this Act subject to the affirmative procedure.

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[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, through this Bill, the Government are seeking gradually to repeal all retained EU law in financial services so that the UK can move to a comprehensive FSMA model of regulation. Under this model, the independent regulators make rules in line with their statutory objectives as set by Parliament and in accordance with the procedures that Parliament has put in place.

It is not the Government’s intention to commence the repeal of retained EU law without ensuring appropriate replacement through UK law when a replacement is needed. The Government set out their approach to the repeal of retained EU law in the document that I referred to earlier, Building a Smarter Financial Services Framework for the UK, which was published in December last year as part of the Edinburgh reforms. It makes it clear that the Government will carefully sequence the repeal to avoid unnecessary disruption and ensure that there are no gaps in regulation.

The Government are prioritising those areas that offer the greatest potential benefits of reform. They have already conducted a number of reviews into parts of retained EU law, including the Solvency II review, the wholesale markets review and my noble friend Lord Hill’s UK listing review. By setting out these priorities, the Government are enabling industry and the regulators to focus their work on the areas that will be reformed first.

My noble friend Lord Trenchard’s Amendment 246 relates to legislation implementing the Alternative Investment Fund Managers Directive in the UK. As has been noted, the UK is the second-largest global asset management hub, with £11.6 trillion of assets under management; this represents a 27% growth in the past five years. The sector also supports 122,000 jobs across the UK and represents around 1% of GDP. These statistics demonstrate the huge value of this industry to the UK and, while the Government would never be complacent, also suggest that the sector is in good health.

The health of the sector is underpinned by proportionate and effective regulation. The Government believe that this must include an appropriate regulatory regime for Alternative Investment Fund managers. These funds are major participants in wholesale markets; they take influential decisions about how capital is allocated, and it is vital that they are held to standards that protect and enhance the integrity of the UK financial system. Moving simply to repeal the legislation that currently regulates this sector without consideration of replacement could open the UK up to unknown competitiveness and financial stability risks. It could undermine the UK’s reputation as a responsible global financial centre committed to high standards of regulation, which could have significant ramifications for the UK’s relationships with other jurisdictions.

I understand that my noble friend Lord Trenchard has some concerns that the legislation deriving from the Alternative Investment Fund Managers Directive creates unnecessary burdens on innovative UK firms serving professional investors. The Government have not to date seen evidence that the reform of that directive is a widely shared priority across the sector.

[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

Does my noble friend the Minister agree that UK law would be a better arrangement for supervising the sector than inherited EU law?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

As I said at the start of my contribution, it is the Government’s intention to move all retained EU law when it comes to financial services into the FSMA model of regulation. That will apply to this area, too, but it is a question of sequencing and priorities. As I referenced before, we have set out our first wave of priorities and are seeking to look at those areas where the greatest potential benefits of reform lie. I am happy to confirm for my noble friend that it is our intention to move all areas of retained EU law on to a UK law basis.

[Baroness Lawlor (Con)]

Just for clarification, will that involve moving away from the precautionary, code-based approach of the EU, which very much influenced the sector post the 1990s and the thinking of our regulators? Will my noble friend confirm that, when the Government review the corpus of retained EU law for this sector, in line with their objects as has been stated, they will pay special attention to the need to rethink the framework of approach rather than simply adopting it? These are different ways of thinking.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I would not want to pre-empt the approach for any specific area of regulation, but the principles on which we are seeking take forward this work are about looking at regulation and ensuring that we use the opportunities outside the EU to take the right approach to that regulation for the UK. My noble friend talked about the different perspectives taken by regulators in the different jurisdictions. That is right. The aim of moving from retained EU law is not simply to transcribe it into UK law but to ensure that it is well adapted to our own circumstances, too. However, I do not think that I can helpfully pre-empt the approach in each area in this debate, but only talk about some of those wider principles.

I was talking about the intention to move all retained EU law into the FSMA model. We have set out our priorities for the first areas in which we are seeking to do this. The Government have not to date seen evidence that the reform of the Alternative Investment Fund Managers Directive is a widely shared priority across the sector. However, the Treasury would of course welcome representations on this point. We are keen to engage further with industry and understand the sector’s priorities as we work to repeal retained EU law associated with alternative investment fund managers over the medium term.

The FCA also recently issued a discussion paper to consider whether wider changes to the asset management regime should be undertaken in future to boost UK competitiveness using the Brexit freedoms introduced by this Bill. This will allow the Government and the regulators to consider what replacement is appropriate for the legislation before commencing its repeal. For these reasons, I ask my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Minister for her reply, but I confess that I find it rather disappointing. I am grateful for the support that I received from my noble friend Lady Lawlor, who talked more than I had and expanded on what I had said about the emergence of the directive and the reasoning behind it at the EU level at the time. As she so well explained, the AIFMD system was always seen, not only at the outset but since then, to be unsuitable for the UK system.

My noble friend the Minister said that the Government have decided gradually to approach the question of repeal and reform of EU law—certainly, very gradually, I would suggest. As she rightly pointed out, this sector is hugely important and of huge value—she mentioned the figure of 122,000 jobs—to the City and the economy as a whole.

However, the Minister said that the financial services industry is underpinned by healthy and proportionate regulation, which I cannot agree with. I tried hard to explain the reasoning, as I understood it, for the introduction of this directive, and I tried to argue that it is not proportionate at all; it is widely regarded as being disproportionate.

The Minister said that there is no evidence of a widely held belief that the regulation underpinning this sector needs reform or revocation. I strongly question who she has been speaking to. In the last week, I have spoken to a very senior regulator of one of the Crown dependencies, who completely endorsed what I said: it is just not true to argue that this regulation is proportionate. The City has been hugely damaged over the years that the AIFMD regime has been in force. The Minister talked about 122,000 jobs, but how many more would there have been had we not, wrongly and unnecessarily, shackled this innovative sector of our financial services industry with this unnecessary, bureaucratic, cumbersome regulation, introduced entirely for political reasons?

I do not accept what the Minister said: that this would undermine the UK’s reputation. The UK’s present reputation, in the IOSCO and among other financial services markets, is that it has become steadily more bureaucratic. I talk to a number of other regulators, and I have technically been a regulator: I was the first non-Japanese to be appointed to the board of the Japan Securities Dealers Association, which has statutory, regulatory powers.

I very much hoped that the Minister would at least say that this is one sector where the Government recognise that there is disproportionate regulation, rather than argue that it is proportionately regulated, which I am convinced it is not. This would have been an opportunity to improve the City’s competitiveness. The listings review recently conducted by my noble friend Lord Hill of Oareford contains many instances of areas where the Government should move quickly. It is a pity that the Government are not using this Bill to move ahead immediately in areas where the case for further consultations is rather weak.

I hope that the Minister will bring back some better news when we next discuss matters such as this. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

European Structural and Investment Funds and the European Agricultural Guarantee Fund

Baroness Penn Excerpts

Tuesday 21st March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate]

To ask His Majesty’s Government whether they have matched the funding previously provided by the European Union to the United Kingdom for the European Structural and Investment Funds and the European Agricultural Guarantee Fund in 2014–20; and if not, what is the extent of the shortfall.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Baroness Penn) (Con)]

The 2021 spending review announced the £2.6 billion UK shared prosperity fund, which improves on the European structural funds by empowering local places. The Government have also introduced farming and rural support worth a cumulative £3.7 billion annually over this Parliament and £33 million annually to support fisheries. This meets our 2019 manifesto commitments to maintain the levels of funding for farmers, fisheries and local economic growth in ways that are less bureaucratic and better targeted at local priorities.

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that partial reassurance, but I ask her to consider very carefully two elements. One is the farmers and members of agricultural communities, who are seeing an erosion of direct payments right now against a future sustainable farming incentive, and their deep concern to keep food production at a high level. The other is structural funding; many local authorities and regions in our country have had expectations for the new UK shared prosperity fund, but that is not coming in for some time. Can my noble friend give us further reassurances that these gaps will be filled?

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[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My noble friend is right that, in both schemes, as the EU funding falls away, the UK funding comes in to replace it. We are seeking to do that in as smooth a way as possible. When it comes to support for farmers, we will continue to set out next steps on our environmental land management schemes, including the sustainable farming initiative, Countryside Stewardship and landscape recovery. On the shared prosperity fund, I reassure my noble friend that that fund is ramping up as EU funding falls away; its profile is faster than the way in which previous EU funding had been distributed.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that, when Wales first received structural funds from the European Union in 2000, that money was accepted by the Treasury in the UK and was not initially passed over to the beneficiaries, on the basis that they were already getting adequate money from the Treasury? It needed the intervention of Michel Barnier, the regional commissioner at that time, to get the Treasury to pass that money over. Will she give a guarantee that all money that is supposed to be equivalent to structural funds will be additional to the base spending for the areas that need it?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, the commitment that the Government have made is that the replacement of EU funding in each nation will meet the levels that they previously received. That is the commitment that we are delivering through the shared prosperity fund.

[Baroness Randerson (LD)]

My Lords, Wales was a beneficiary of EU funding, as one of the poorest parts of the EU. The Welsh Government used a big slice of that funding to support university support partnerships across Wales and beyond. Because the new shared prosperity fund is administered by the UK Government and local authorities, there is no scope for universities to benefit in the same way, leaving a big hole in the amount available for university research, which is of course essential for levelling up. Will the Minister undertake that she will, with her colleagues, examine this problem and amend the UK’s funding mechanisms in order to solve the big hole that is appearing in university research funding? I declare an interest as chancellor of Cardiff University.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, the UK shared prosperity fund was designed to give local areas more discretion about how they spend that funding, aligned with local priorities. The UK Government provide significant support to our research sector, including through universities, but I am happy to take the noble Baroness’s feedback back to the Treasury.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, many social economy projects in Northern Ireland have relied on the European Social Fund for many years. Because that funding is due to end next week, they face a cliff edge, and they have not received any communication about funding allocations from the UK prosperity fund. To enable such social economy projects to continue with their good work, right across the communities, will the Minister ensure that this funding is made available to such projects that do such good work for the benefit of all?

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[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I am aware that there are elements of funding from the European Social Fund in Northern Ireland that are due to come to an end at the end of this month. The Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities is administering a competition to replace that funding, and it received strong and positive responses from organisations across Northern Ireland seeking to deliver the aims of that programme. It is working very hard to make the final selection decisions as quickly as possible.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend accept that, for two categories of farmers—particularly hill farmers and tenant farmers—the level of income from the European funds is falling faster than initially expected? Will she work with Defra to ensure that their incomes are protected, and that they continue to produce the excellent food that they do for this country?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I am sure that Defra will want to support the work of all farmers in our economy. My noble friend referred to two different categories of farmer: I know that my noble friend Lady Rock did an excellent review into tenant farmers, and a number of her recommendations have been taken forward. As Defra develops its programmes for the sustainable farming incentive and other replacements for EU funds, it will want to take into account the needs of different farmers across the UK.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government made a very simple promise to the nations and regions of the UK, as well as to farmers: European funding would be matched pound for pound, and the mechanisms used to allocate funds would be simpler and fairer. Several years on, we are still waiting for the shared prosperity fund, environmental land management schemes and the UK Infrastructure Bank to get fully up and running and to hit the targets they have been set. How have the Government managed to get this so badly wrong? Why is progress so slow? Does she acknowledge that this is a difficult time for farmers and that the Government really need to crack on with it?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, as I have explained to the House, as European funding tails away, UK funding ramps up. For example, the shared prosperity fund will reach £1.5 billion a year by the end of the spending review period. For each of the sectors that the noble Baroness mentioned, we have provided clarity around the funding available for the full three years of the spending review and the mechanisms by which it will be distributed. I know that my colleagues in Defra continue to work hard with farmers to ensure the successful rollout of the replacement schemes.

[Lord Jones (Lab)]

My Lords, will the Minister acknowledge that, in recent times, Wales has lost a great foundation industry, which was mining? It provided tens of thousands of jobs and created some prosperity. In recent times, the once mighty steel industry of Wales has also all but disappeared—it has shrunk. We are more and more in need of investment. It was from the privy counsellors’ Bench over there that former Prime Minister Harold Macmillan, Viscount Macmillan, paid tribute to the miners and steelworkers who, in two world wars, defeated first the Kaiser and then Adolf Hitler. Wales now needs more and more government funding. In the lovely heartland of Wales—cefn gwlad—there is great distress among the farming communities. We are in need of investment.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, we had a discussion last week about the needs of Wales when it came to government funding. I told noble Lords then that we took into account the greater needs of Wales as calculated by the Holtham commission. Indeed, the funding that goes to Wales is over and above the assessed needs of Wales at the present time.

[Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend the Minister confirm that we now have the advantage of being able to start with an identified need and then look for how to fund it rather than, as necessarily happened under the European funds, to start with a figure of money and then cast around for ways to spend it?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My noble friend is right that one of the opportunities that we have, having left the EU, is to look at programmes and make sure that they deliver against our policy priorities in the UK. That is exactly what we are seeking to do with our agricultural support schemes, for example, and we will continue to look for opportunities to do that.

British Banking Sector

Baroness Penn Excerpts

Tuesday 21st March 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the health of the British banking sector, following the challenges faced by overseas banks.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Baroness Penn) (Con)]

The UK Government welcome the steps taken to support financial stability on Sunday by the Swiss authorities relating to Credit Suisse. This follows the sale on 13 March of Silicon Valley Bank UK to HSBC after the resolution of its US parent. No other UK banks have been materially affected by these actions. The Governor of the Bank of England has confirmed that, in his view:

“The wider UK banking system remains safe, sound, and well capitalised.”

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

I thank the Minister for her reply. Many people watching the events unfold at the moment are concerned that they may lose their jobs or that there will be another financial hit to people at a time of high inflation. It is 10 years since we had the publication of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards report. One of its conclusions was that the implicit taxpayer guarantee gives banks

“access to cheaper credit than would otherwise be available and creates incentives for them to take excessive risks.”

Do His Majesty’s Government have any steps to remove the implicit taxpayer guarantee? If not, what other incentives will His Majesty’s Government give to ensure that bankers act prudently?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I emphasise to people at home the words of the Governor of the Bank of England that the UK banking system

“remains safe, sound, and well capitalised.”

The situation is different from 2008. Over the last 15 years, the Government and the Bank of England have taken robust action to strengthen the regulatory system and the resilience of the UK banking system. Specifically to the right reverend Prelate’s question, we have put in place a resolution regime to ensure that the failure of a bank can be managed in a way that minimises the impact on depositors, the financial system and public finances. I note that the resolution solution found for Silicon Valley Bank last week involved no UK taxpayer money whatever.

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick (Con)]

My Lords, is the implication of the right reverend Prelate’s question not a policy that would make banks far riskier than they already are? It is an extraordinary policy for him to advocate. I understand from the press that the Government were involved in the actions taken to save Credit Suisse and merge it with UBS, but a certain amount of disquiet has been caused by the preferential treatment that appears to have been given to shareholders rather than bondholders. Can she explain why this situation has arisen? Is the implication of that not rather disturbing for bondholders in other banks?

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[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, the Swiss authorities were in the lead in the solution for Credit Suisse but my noble friend is right that, given the significant presence of Credit Suisse in the UK, the Treasury has remained in close contact with the Bank of England and the Swiss authorities in recent days. We welcome the comprehensive set of actions set out by the Swiss authorities to support financial stability. The UK authorities are going to take a number of actions to support that action, including PRA plans to approve a change in control application for the Credit Suisse subsidiaries in the UK. The resolution of the Credit Suisse situation was for the Swiss authorities, but the UK remains in close contact.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, we welcome the Bank of England’s swift action on SVB UK and its recent statements about the safe nature of the UK’s banking system. Nevertheless, events elsewhere, including those relating to Credit Suisse, are creating uncertainty in the global financial system. With this in mind, will the Treasury and the Bank of England commit to undertake a systemic review of the impact of interest rate rises and wider events in the system on our own financial sector and banking system?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, as with any major event, the Treasury will reflect on the lessons to be learned and how improvements can be made. I assure noble Lords that, each year, the Bank of England carries out a stress test of the major UK banks that incorporates a severe but plausible adverse economic scenario. The 2022 stress test scenario includes a rapid rise in interest rates, with the UK bank rate assumed to rise to 6% in early 2023. The results of that test are taken forward by the PRA in its supervision of the banks. The results will also be published this summer.

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD)]

My Lords, an FT piece yesterday, headlined “How ‘competitive’ would you like your bank regulation now?”, says:

“The UK regulatory pendulum has been halted in mid-swing.”


Is that true? Credit Suisse had G-SIFI levels of capital and liquidity but was undone through bad culture. Are not the twin bastions of culture in the UK banks ring-fencing and the senior managers regime? Is it not also of massive cultural significance that it came from the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards? If the Government mess with those, where is the break on culture-based runs? What do they say when these practices come under lobbying pressures?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I think the noble Baroness was asking about the Government’s proposed Edinburgh reforms package, which represents a move towards proportionate, simple regulation that works for the UK and will help to drive growth in the broader economy, supporting families and businesses across the country. In that approach, we recognise that the UK’s success as a financial services hub is built on agility, consistently high regulatory standards and openness. We will continue to take those principles forward in our reforms.

[Lord Eatwell (Lab)]

My Lords, I found the noble Baroness’s position on the current status of the banking system to exhibit extreme complacency. Is she aware that Credit Suisse was very highly capitalised and had in place all the financial anchors on which she relied in her Answer? Yet Credit Suisse has collapsed. Do the so-called Edinburgh reforms not actually come up to this: we are going to make the banking system more competitive, which equals taking greater risks?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, in the Financial Services and Markets Bill we are introducing a new objective for the regulators to look at competitiveness, but we are clear that that objective comes second in the hierarchy to the systems objectives around financial stability. We think that strikes the right balance. We are absolutely not complacent about the global banking system and the wider financial services sector, but it is important to recognise that we are in a different position from 2008 and that we are making further changes to ensure the resilience of our sector. For example, the Bank of England announced in December that, for the first time, it will run an exploratory stress-test exercise focused on non-bank financial institutions, recognising the increased risk posed there. We will continue to do what we need to do to ensure financial stability in this country.

[Lord Grabiner (CB)]

Are we entitled to assume that the London branch of Credit Suisse is being properly regulated by the FCA and the Bank of England?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The noble Lord is right that the Credit Suisse subsidiary in the UK was regulated by the Prudential Regulation Authority and met its obligations under those regulations.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords—

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[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, we have had two questions addressing the dangers of the competitiveness agenda of the Edinburgh reforms, which the Green Party has consistently opposed. The other element is that the Government talk about boosting growth. The Minister suggested that was for the general economy, but it has been presented as a desire to grow the financial sector. Is there not, as demonstrated by recent events, a great risk of too much finance and too large a financial sector when what we need is a real-sized financial sector to serve the real economy?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I disagree with the noble Baroness. The UK’s financial services sector is one of our great strengths in and of itself and as an engine to power growth across the rest of our economy; that will remain the case under this Government.

[Lord Reay (Con)]

My Lords, is my noble friend the Minister confident that the risk controls at the UK fintechs are adequate, given the current challenging conditions in the global financial markets?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, one thing that UK regulators have sought to do is ensure that the fintech sector is well regulated while continuing to innovate. We have been able to use things such as regulatory sandboxes to allow safe spaces for that innovation to be tested out, and we will continue to take that approach.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Baroness Penn Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 21st March 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank His Majesty’s Treasury for sharing its policy on the Edinburgh reforms last month. This Government, following their initial floating of the HMT intervention powers, have given parliamentarians serious cause for concern regarding their judgment. We should be slow to trust that they have the judgment and operational competence to implement the changes in the Edinburgh reforms safely and effectively. Could the Minister give an indication of the Government’s intentions and/or direction of travel concerning both ring-fencing and the senior managers and certification regime?

We heard from the Bank of England governor this week that the Government’s version of Solvency II reform increases risks for insurance firms by 200% more than the Bank’s preferred option. I think we are vindicated in our general concern about the Government’s gung-ho approach to financial stability. Sweeping changes to ring-fencing and the senior managers and certification regime are too important to be left to statutory instrument. The amendments from the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, are sensible safeguards that the Government should consider thoroughly.

We have seen chaos in two banks this week—Silicon Valley Bank and Credit Suisse. What is the Government’s assessment of whether other systemically important banks are safe and sound? Did we see SVB and Credit Suisse coming? Did the regulators? What are they proactively doing to protect UK consumers and investors?

My view on Amendment 216 is not yet fully formed; I want further discussions with colleagues. I agree with the general view on Amendments 241C and 241D that the issue is really about scrutiny and accountability. In my view, it is impossible to argue that a relaxation of either ring-fencing or the senior managers and certification regime is other than very significant. The present method of accountability through an affirmative instrument is clearly insufficient and I commend the device of the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, which she has included in these two amendments. The Government should support them.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Baroness Penn) (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak first to Amendment 216, which pertains to the Government’s announced reforms to Solvency II, made possible through the Bill’s revocation of retained EU law.

The Government are reforming Solvency II, the rules for prudential regulation of the insurance industry currently set by the EU, to reflect the UK insurance market’s unique features. These reforms will provide incentives for insurers to increase investment in long-term productive assets by more than £100 billion. They will also benefit consumers by increasing insurers’ ability to provide a broader range of more affordable products.

The Government have committed to make changes to the matching adjustment, an accounting mechanism whereby insurers can match their long-term liabilities with long-term assets and hold less money to pay out claims. These reforms will incentivise firms to invest significantly more in long-term productive assets such as infrastructure. This investment will support growth across the UK and the Government’s climate change objectives.

The noble Baroness’s amendment would instead result in a stricter treatment for some assets than under current rules. I reassure noble Lords that the Government’s reforms to Solvency II strike a careful balance between boosting growth across the economy and maintaining high standards of policyholder protection. Insurers will still be required to hold extra capital to safeguard against unexpected shocks, they will still have to adhere to high standards of risk management, and they will still be subject to comprehensive supervision from the PRA, our world-class independent regulator.

The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, asked whether we would replicate the Canadian Government’s position with regard to pensions and insurance firms in this context. She referred to statements in the Budget about pension funds—although I think they were focused more on defined contribution pension funds than defined benefit pension funds. I do not know the detail of the specific Canadian regime, but the reforms proposed here do not pose risks to financial stability. As I said, each insurer must still hold enough capital to survive a 1-in-200-year shock over one year. Insurers will still have to adhere to the high standards of risk management. The Government and the PRA have announced a series of additional supervisory measures that the PRA will take forward to ensure that policyholders remain protected. For example, the PRA will now require insurers to take part in regular stress-testing exercises.

[Lord Eatwell (Lab)]

May I comment on the issue of stress tests, which the Minister also raised during Questions this afternoon? You can stress test only risks that you know are there. It depends on the underlying model that you create to examine in your stress tests. Thus stress tests did not pick up the LDI problem at all because it was not there in the models that were used. In financial services, risks appear in entirely unexpected places, and relying on stress tests is, and has been demonstrated to be, a very weak answer. She should reconsider her reliance on this argument.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

Since it is related, I also question the readiness for a 1-in-200-year shock. We have seen very similar kinds of mathematical approaches, if you like, taken to issues such as flood risk and other climate risks, and they have been found to be very ineffective in dealing with problems. They only increase the failure to understand risks.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I would point to stress tests as one of the tools that the Bank of England, including the FCA and the PRA, has in its toolbox for securing financial stability. It is not the only tool that it uses. The noble Lord is right that it tests against certain scenarios, which are updated each year to take into account the changing picture around the world and look at different risks, but it can test for only the risks that we have thought about. It is a tool in the toolbox, not a solution to everything.

The noble Lord mentioned LDI. The picture there is mixed. It was identified as a source of risk by the Financial Policy Committee but the extent of movement in gilt prices that it was then stress-tested against was far greater in the scenario that we saw unfold. It may be a good example of the benefits of being able to horizon-scan and look for risk—risk was identified—but also of the limits of some of that work. I completely acknowledge that. The same applies to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett.

Amendments 241C and 241D relate to important regulatory reforms introduced following the global financial crisis and the recommendations by the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards. I pay tribute to the important work of that commission and to its members who are here today. It has had a lasting legacy in improving the safety and soundness of the UK’s financial system.

Amendment 241C relates to the ring-fencing regime, which, as we have heard, is a major post-crisis reform separating retail activities from investment banking activities in large banking groups. As required by the Financial Services (Banking Reform) Act 2013, the Treasury appointed an independent panel, chaired by Sir Keith Skeoch, to review the ring-fencing regime. The legislation required this review to take place after the regime had been in operation for two years; that review concluded in March 2022. I say to my noble friend Lord Trenchard that the Skeoch review looked at the questions about the effectiveness of the ring-fencing regime, and it is in the context of that review that we are discussing the way forward.

In December, as part of the Edinburgh reforms, the Chancellor announced a series of changes to the ring-fencing regime. These broadly follow the recommendations made by the independent review. It concluded that the financial regulatory landscape has changed significantly since the last financial crisis—a point made by my noble friend Lady Noakes. UK banks are much better capitalised and a bank resolution regime has been introduced to ensure that bank failures can be managed in an orderly way in future, minimising risks to depositors and public funds.

In the light of these considerations, the independent review concluded that changes could be made in the short term to improve the functionality of the regime. Crucially, the panel stressed that these could be made while maintaining financial stability safeguards. The panel also recommended that, over the longer term, the Government should review the practicalities of aligning the ring-fencing and resolution regimes. I assure noble Lords that the Government remain firmly committed to the objectives of the ring-fencing regime: to protect core banking services, such as retail deposits, from risks elsewhere in the financial system while minimising risks to taxpayers in the case of a bank failure. As recent events have shown, it is critical that the Government and regulators have the necessary powers to act decisively in pursuit of these objectives.

In response to the review, the Government have announced their intention to consult later this year on a series of near-term reforms to the ring-fencing regime to implement the independent review’s recommendations. The proposed reforms will make the regime more adaptable, simpler and better placed to serve customers, while maintaining important protections for depositors and financial stability. Alongside this, and in response to the review’s longer-term recommendations, the Government recently published a call for evidence that explores how better to align the ring-fencing regime with the resolution regime. I assure all noble Lords that, in the context of that longer-term call for evidence, no decisions have been made on the longer-term future of ring-fencing. The call for evidence is seeking views on a wide range of options including the possibility of disapplying the regime where banks are deemed resolvable, which was one of the Skeoch review’s recommendations. It also seeks views on retaining or further alternative options for reforming the regime.

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[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, on the digital pound, we support the Bank of England’s work exploring the potential benefits of a safe and stable central bank digital currency, but the Government’s overall approach to crypto remains unclear.

With the collapse of FTX, it is clear that crypto can pose a real threat to normal people in the real economy and therefore may pose a systemic risk in future. The approach HMT has taken to the digital pound is a welcome contrast to this Administration’s eagerness to lean into a crypto Wild West in the recent past. We need to get serious about attracting innovative fintech companies to the UK by safely harnessing the potential of new technologies. How will the Government do this?

On the amendments in general, the issue of accountability has come up once again. The concept of using primary legislation to have a check on these ideas is clearly practical and therefore very attractive, but it will have problems. If the Government would only embrace our concerns about accountability and come forward with a proper and comprehensive accountability structure, perhaps we would be able to develop a more sophisticated approach than the rather raw power of primary legislation. However, as a fallback it is very attractive.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have been transparent about their plans to enable the use of digital identities in the private sector, including in financial services, and we are committed to ensuring the scalability, flexibility and inclusivity of secure digital identities.

The Government initiated their digital identity programme following industry calls for the Government to take the lead in developing common standards for digital identity across the whole economy. We continue to believe that a whole-economy approach is the right way forward, and we are working with stakeholders to deliver this at pace.

For example, the UK digital identity and attributes trust framework has already enabled right to work, right to rent and criminal record-checking processes to be digitised, making these checks quicker and more secure. In addition, measures in the Government’s Data Protection and Digital Information (No. 2) Bill, which was introduced to Parliament on 8 March, go further by securing the reliability of digital identity services across the economy for those businesses and consumers who wish to use them. The Government also recognise that greater clarity with respect to how digital identity services certified against the digital identity and attributes trust framework support requirements under the Money Laundering Regulations will be key for market uptake. As set out in the Government’s 2022 Money Laundering Regulations review response, we have committed to considering this too.

I hope that I have reassured my noble friend Lord Holmes that the Government remain committed to enabling the use of secure, reusable digital identity products across the UK economy and that Amendment 218 is therefore not necessary.

Turning to Amendments 220 and 221, also from my noble friend, the Centre for Data Ethics and Innovation guidance has not been designed to form the basis of regulatory requirements relevant to financial services and is unlikely to address AI risks specific to that sector. Appropriating CDEI guidance for the basis of regulation that is aimed at the wider governance of AI through non-regulatory tools and industry-led techniques is therefore likely to lead to unintended consequences; however, I appreciate my noble friend’s point that he used the CDEI for illustrative purposes.

I assure my noble friend that the newly created Department for Science, Innovation and Technology is already developing a cross-economy, pro-innovation framework for AI regulation, underpinned by a number of cross-sectoral principles to strengthen the current patchwork approach to regulating AI directly. Further proposals for the new regulatory framework will be published in a White Paper in the coming weeks. Through our proposals for a new AI regulatory framework, we are building the foundations for an adaptable approach that can be adjusted to respond quickly to emerging developments. The vast majority of industry stakeholders we have engaged with agree that this strikes the right balance between supporting innovation in AI while addressing the risks.

Furthermore, the FCA, the PRA and the Bank of England recently published a discussion paper on how regulation can support the safe and responsible adoption of AI in financial services. Therefore, to avoid unintended complications with the use of digital identities and artificial intelligence in the financial services sector, I hope that my noble friend will not press his amendments.

Finally, I turn to the important topic of central bank digital currencies and Amendments 241F and 241FD, both ably introduced by my noble friend Lord Forsyth. The Government have been clear that they consider that Parliament will have a vital role to play in the future of any digital pound. As I set out to my noble friend Lord Bridges in a previous debate in the Chamber, when we discussed the findings of the report to which my noble friend referred, the Government expect to fully engage Parliament, including through any possible legislation, in an open and transparent manner to ensure that there is full and proper scrutiny of any proposals over the coming years. As the joint Treasury and Bank of England consultation paper published on 7 February set out, the legal basis for the digital pound will be determined alongside consideration of its design; this is the subject of ongoing work.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

Could my noble friend the Minister just define what “vital” means? Does it mean primary legislation?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

As I said, the approach we take will be determined alongside the consideration of any design of a central bank digital currency. The decision to move ahead with a CBDC has not yet been taken; however, we do believe that it is likely to be needed in future. Although it is too early to commit to build the infrastructure for one, we are convinced that further preparatory work is justified. Therefore, that definition will become clearer as the design of the approach also becomes clearer—but the commitment at the outset to parliamentary engagement is there.

[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

The Minister just made a statement that it is likely to be needed in future. Can I ask a very simple question: why? Why is a CBDC likely to be needed in future? That seems a fairly bald statement.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, we may not wish to repeat the debate that we had in the Chamber earlier this year, but I was going to address my noble friend’s question about retail versus wholesale and the point from the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, about the use case for a CBDC.

The noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, made one of the points in relation to a CBDC. We want to ensure that central bank money, which is currently available to the public only as cash, remains useful and accessible to the public in an ever more digitalised economy. We have heard about access to cash in our debates earlier in Committee.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall) (Lab)]

My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the Minister but there is a Division in the Chamber. The Committee will adjourn for 10 minutes, after which we will resume and allow the Minister to finish what she had to say.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I was explaining why we think that the UK may need a digital pound in future. The central point is that we want central bank money, which is currently available to the public only as cash, to remain as useful and accessible as ever in an ever more digitalised economy.

I was going to address my noble friend Lord Holmes’s question about whether the work we are taking forward is focused on a wholesale or retail central bank currency. The proposal being considered is potentially to introduce a retail CBDC at some point in the future. With regard to a wholesale CBDC, banks have access to electronic central bank money in the form of reserves; we are open to exploring innovative ways in which wholesale firms could use reserves. There is a programme for reform under way on electronic central bank money in the form of reserves that will bring similar benefits to those that we see for CBDCs in the retail space.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

Is there going to be a limit on the amount that people can hold in this retail central bank digital currency? Does the Minister accept that, if there is no limit, that will have major implications for financial stability?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

These are some of the questions that we want to consider through the consultation that is currently open and any further work. That consultation recognises the financial stability implications of developing such a proposal; we will want to consider them as we take this work forward.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

I hope that the Minister anticipates consultation and research. To me, “consultation” means coming back to the industry. The industry comes from a perfectly respectable position but it is one position. We need basic research, modelling and all the various techniques to explore the potential risks.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The noble Lord is right that the public consultation phases of this work are one element of the work that will be done by the Treasury and the Bank of England in developing this concept. There are many other strands of work that will also be undertaken. As we discussed in the previous debate, any such project would be a significant infrastructure project with significant financial implications so we would need an appropriate approach acknowledging that.

We are at an early stage of this work. As I said, we have not taken the decision to go ahead with a CBDC but we think that there is sufficient evidence to justify further exploratory work. At this stage, it would be premature to include any provision in the Bill. I reiterate my previous statement that the Government expect to keep Parliament fully engaged in this work as it progresses. I therefore hope that my noble friend Lord Holmes will withdraw his Amendment 218.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

That word, “engaged”, flummoxes us all. We do not see a mechanism in our system. Will the Minister write to us and spell out what “engaged” means?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I can look to write to noble Lords on this question but I am not sure that I would be able to add more to my response at this stage, which is that the Government expect to fully engage Parliament, including through any possible legislation, in an open and transparent manner to ensure that there is full and proper scrutiny of any proposals over the coming years. As the joint consultation paper set out, the legal basis for the digital pound will be determined alongside consideration of its design; that is subject to ongoing work. If I wrote to noble Lords at this stage, I think I would be saying exactly that but, if there is anything further to add, I would be happy to do so.

[Lord Sharkey (LD)]

I just want to make sure that I understand exactly what the Minister is saying. If the Government decide to bring in the digital pound, will they commit to bringing it in via legislation?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I am afraid that I have gone as far as I can in detailing the approach that we would take to Parliament. We expect to engage Parliament fully. However, the legal basis for the digital pound will be determined alongside consideration of its design. Work is not yet at the stage where we can provide that further clarity.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

I thank all noble Lords who have participated in this debate and my noble friend the Minister for her response. At this stage, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

There is no official Labour Party position on this, but I feel enormous sympathy for the position of the noble Earl, Lord Attlee. I hope the Minister will take this away, not as a legislative proposal but as a problem to be solved, and ensure that it is considered at a very senior level in the Treasury.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, before I speak to his Amendments 223 and 241FB, I first thank my noble friend Lord Attlee for his engagement and for bringing to my attention the specific example he has raised today as context for his amendments. I commend his staunch support for Ukraine, and the Government remain fully committed to supporting Ukraine in the face of the relentless Russian bombardment.

I reiterate to the Committee that the money laundering regulations are a vital part of the UK’s comprehensive economic crime response. The regulations are designed to combat illicit finance but should not be barriers to legitimate customers, including those connected with the export of military equipment to the Ukrainian defence forces.

As the Prime Minister has set out, the Government are fully committed to helping Ukraine emerge from the war with a modernised economy that is resilient to Russian threats. Of course it is important that those contributing towards this are not prevented unnecessarily from carrying out their business, but this needs to be balanced with the existing controls which protect this country, and international partners, from risks of money laundering.

It is important that we do not take steps that might allow the money laundering regulations to be circumvented by bad actors, even in circumstances such as this. It is therefore right that financial services firms continue to be empowered to carry out their own, risk-based due diligence when financing the export of armoured vehicles or military equipment, or individuals who are engaged in the international defence industry.

The money laundering regulations are purposefully not prescriptive and are designed to allow firms to make their own decisions about how to comply, balancing their understanding of the risk with proportionality. The Government do not and will not involve themselves in commercial decisions of individual firms but we can be clear that, where all the correct licences are in place, the money laundering regulations should not be a barrier to the financing of legitimate export activity.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

I am sorry to interrupt my noble friend, but I would like to make it clear that Peter does not need any financing. The other cases that I have come across in the aerospace and defence sector are very well financed; that is why their businesses are not very attractive to the banks, which can withdraw financial services because there is no money in it. Peter does not need finance; all he needs is the bank to process the money, but the bank has a real difficulty processing money from Ukrainian businessmen.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I was making the point that there is a wider context here that there should be no barrier to the financing of legitimate export activity.

Turning to the point made by my noble friends Lord Attlee and Lord Trenchard, the government process for the granting of export control licences focuses on the end use of goods rather than the source of funds paying for them. It is therefore distinct from the due diligence checks that a bank would carry out before conducting the transaction. I assure noble Lords that, through the Government’s engagement with my noble friend on this, we have engaged with the Export Control Joint Unit, the Financial Conduct Authority and other partners on this issue. While I appreciate the frustrations of individual cases, we are not aware of a systemic issue. The Government will continue to monitor reports of similar problems; if we identify a systemic problem, we will act to address it.

I turn to the solutions suggested by my noble friend. The noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, and my noble friend Lady Noakes are right that our obligations around anti-money laundering regulations stem from our international obligations to the Financial Action Task Force. The approach set out in these proposals would very likely be in contravention of those obligations. My noble friend Lady Noakes is right that the current version of our anti-money laundering regulations reflects our membership of the EU, which is consistent with those obligations from the Financial Action Task Force, but in some areas goes beyond them.

I turn to Amendment 238, tabled by my noble friend Lord Holmes of Richmond. The Government undertook a review of the money laundering regulations, which was published last year. This was a comprehensive assessment of the effectiveness of their implementation and whether they had led to unintended consequences for businesses or consumers. It explicitly assessed whether aspects of the money laundering regulations remain appropriate and proportionate in light of the UK’s exit from the EU and the additional flexibilities that affords us. It identified a number of areas for reform to make the regulations more proportionate and reduce unnecessary burdens on legitimate customers, which we will take forward through future updates to the regulations. These reforms will further tailor the regime to the UK’s risk profile, following the removal of specific European requirements from the money laundering regulations last year.

While the Government remain committed to ensuring the proportionality and effectiveness of anti-money laundering regulations and the regime around it, and monitor the effects on financial inclusion, the review required by Amendment 238 would largely repeat the exercise conducted last year, of which we are still to implement the full results.

My noble friend referred to the previous group on digital identity. He is absolutely right; we recognise that greater clarity on how digital identity services are certified against the Government’s digital identity and attributes trust framework would support requirements under money laundering regulations that will be key for market uptake, so we see the opportunity there and the role for government in providing assurance on that process of uptake as a potential technical solution to make some of these processes easier. As set out in our 2022 money laundering regulations review response, we have committed to consider this fact too.

For the reasons I have set out, I hope that my noble friend Lord Attlee can withdraw his amendment and that my noble friend Lord Holmes will not move his when reached.

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[Lord Sharkey (LD)]

My Lords, I agree with everything that the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, has said. We are happy to support this amendment. I simply have two questions and one observation about it.

The amendment says that we must include “green infrastructure”. Is there a practical, generally agreed working definition of what that actually means? I also notice that, in carrying out the review, the Treasury must consult a list of organisations. The final group of organisations is “relevant financial services stakeholders”. Is the intention also to include professional advisers? They would be a vital addition; perhaps that should be made explicit as we go forward.

My observation is that proposed new subsection (3)(c), which talks about

“establishing frameworks to enable DB pension funds to invest in firms and infrastructure alongside the British Business Bank”,

is an extremely good idea. We should make sure that this happens as soon as we can.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, the Government remain fully committed to the objective of unlocking pensions capital for long-term, productive investment, where it is in the best interests of members. High-growth sectors developing cutting-edge technologies need access to finance to start, scale and stay in the UK. The Government are clear that developing the next generation of globally competitive companies in the UK will require unlocking defined contribution pension fund investment into the UK’s most innovative firms.

That is why, in the Spring Budget last week, the Chancellor committed the Government to working with industry and regulators to bring forward an ambitious package of measures by this autumn. He also set out a number of initial measures to signal the Government’s clear ambition in this area. They included increasing support for the UK’s most innovative companies by extending the British Patient Capital programme by a further 10 years until 2033-34 and increasing its focus on R&D-intensive industries, providing at least £3 billion in investment; spurring on the creation of new vehicles for investment into science and tech companies tailored to the needs of UK defined contribution pension schemes by inviting industry to provide feedback on the design of a new long-term investment for technology and science initiative; and leading by example by pursuing the accelerated transfer of the £364 billion Local Government Pension Scheme assets into pools to support increased investment in innovative companies and other productive assets. The Government will shortly come forward with a consultation on this issue.

Defence Spending

Baroness Penn Excerpts

Thursday 16th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead]

To ask His Majesty’s Government, further to their Integrated Review Refresh 2023, published on 13 March, whether they have any plans to increase spending on defence to three per cent of GDP.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Baroness Penn) (Con)]

As the Prime Minister said on Monday, we will move away from our baseline commitment of spending at least 2% of GDP on defence to a new aspiration of 2.5% when the fiscal situation allows. There are no plans to change this aspiration to 3%. To ensure that we continue to meet the threats we face, the Chancellor is providing an extra £11 billion over five years to improve the country’s resilience and readiness.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, everybody knows that our defence forces have been underfunded for some considerable time and are not in the position they should be. One could argue, I think quite reasonably, that that is part of the reason we are in the mess we are with the war in Ukraine. Autocrats such as Putin watch what we do and think, “These people are not taking life seriously”. We also know that the percentage of GDP figure is totemic. It was useful because we were able to put pressure on European allies to increase their spending, but it depends totally on what one’s GDP is. Bearing in mind that we have insufficient money for defence, does the Minister not believe that the Government should now make a clear commitment of going for 3%—let us call it of GDP—but actually attach a figure to it and start that spending now so that murderous people such as Putin see that we mean business?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord about the need to increase our spending on defence and start that now. That is why defence received its settlement a year earlier than other departments in the spending review 2020. It is why, alongside the integrated review refresh, we have included an uplift beyond that, including £4.95 billion for defence over the next two years to improve readiness and resilience of the Armed Forces, including bolstering our conventional stockpiles, enabling an early investment for the AUKUS submarine alliance and modernising our nuclear enterprise.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister recall that as recently as 2010, we were spending 2.6% of GDP on defence? Given the accounting changes that have occurred since then, that probably equates to something more like 2.8% in today’s terms. So the recent announcements putting us on a trajectory to 2.5% really cannot be seen as scaling some new peak, but rather as clawing us a little further out of the hole into which we have sunk. Does she accept that not only is there more to be done but that it needs to be done with urgency, and that saying we aspire to 2.5% when fiscal conditions permit is about the same as Government Front-Bench spokesmen saying they will bring something to this House “in due course”? It is pretty much meaningless.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I would like to reassure noble Lords that there is more money now going into defence. It is the largest sustained increase in defence spending since the end of the Cold War and, in recognition of the changing picture globally, we announced at the Budget money on top of that investment: £4.95 billion over the next two years and an extra £11 billion over the next five years to improve the country’s resilience and readiness.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, while the money announced yesterday is of course very welcome and we thank the Chancellor for that, it is £11 billion over five years. This is jam tomorrow—we need the money spent today. Has nobody noticed what is happening in Ukraine, and that our bunkers are empty of ammunition? We need to spend the money today. Will my noble friend confirm that, as she speaks, we are still cutting the number of troops, ships and aircraft in the United Kingdom defence budget?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

An additional £24 billion is going in now as a result of the spending review 2020. The £11 billion announced at the Spring Budget includes £4.95 billion over the next two years. That does not include the spending on our commitments to Ukraine, which was £2.3 billion last year and will be £2.3 billion in the coming year.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, we have got figures, figures and figures. There is only one crucial question. The Defence Secretary said in February that the Government

“have hollowed out and underfunded our armed forces”.—[Official Report, Commons, 20/2/23; col.65.]

Yesterday, some new funding was announced. Do the Government believe that yesterday really represents a reversal of the Secretary of State’s analysis and, crucially, is sufficient to secure Britain’s national defence for the future?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I think the Secretary of State for Defence has been very positive about the money announced at the Budget and previously, and this Government have overseen the largest investment in defence since the Cold War. The British Armed Forces remain among the best in the world; that is why we are a leading NATO partner. Over the last 10 years, the UK has been NATO’s second largest defence spender, after the US, and we spent almost as much on defence as 20 other NATO members combined. Future Soldier, the Army’s response to the integrated review, will deliver the largest transformation of the British Army in more than 20 years. As the threat changes, we need to change with it, and we have set out a plan to do so.

[Lord Swire (Con)]

I very much welcome the Prime Minister’s recent announcement about the replacement and refurbishment of the nuclear submarine fleet. Can my noble friend say from which budget that money is coming and, critically, can she confirm that the other political parties have signed up to this, given the long-term impact and programme that it will require?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I will let the other parties speak for themselves, but this is a long-term commitment to investment in our own security. The money we are investing in the defence nuclear enterprise is additional funding; it is not coming from any existing contingency, and I am happy to confirm that to the House.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, since the additional money is over five years, and since we are supporting Ukraine to the tune of £2 billion a year, that additional money will all be used up in the support of Ukraine, which invites and encourages me to ask two questions. First, when will the money be made available to replace the ageing armoured vehicle, the Warrior, with a new battlefield vehicle, having regard to the shambles of the Ajax programme? Secondly, when will the Royal Air Force be provided with sufficient F35s to train its pilots to fly that aircraft, never mind taking it into combat?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I am afraid that I will have to write to the noble Lord on those two specific questions, but I should make a very important clarification of the additional funding going into our Armed Forces. Our support for Ukraine is over and above the additional investment I have mentioned, so it will not be drawn on in future years when we continue that support for as long as the conflict lasts.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)]

Does the noble Baroness agree that Poland has been a model in respect of additional expenditure, and does she share the concern about the delay in Germany fulfilling its commitment? She talked about long-term commitments. Does this mean that the new expenditure will be backloaded and there will be some for several years in the future?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

We welcome the contribution from all our allies and partners. I think I have been clear that nearly £5 billion of the £11 billion of additional funding is over the next two years. We have provided clarity beyond the existing scorecard period to help facilitate long-term investment in our future defence.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Can my noble friend clarify a statement she made in answering the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Pittenweem? Did she really say that none of this money is going to be needed to replenish the armaments we have sent to Ukraine? A simple yes or no will do.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I believe I said earlier that one of the things we will be able to do with our funding is bolster our conventional stockpiles. But I want to be clear with noble Lords that the £2.3 billion commitment we made to Ukraine in 2022-23, which we are also matching going into next year, is over and above the money I have set out today.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, I know the Treasury likes to speak in percentages and aggregate sums, but can we cut to the chase? Will the Minister confirm that, as far as the Treasury knows, over the next few years our Armed Forces will reduce the number of soldiers, ships and planes? She may consult her colleague from the Ministry of Defence if she wishes.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I am very happy to have my noble friend sitting next to me. We constantly review our capabilities, but the vision for the future of our defence as set out in the original integrated review remains the vision for defence in this country. However, additional resource has come in as a result of the integrated review refresh, in order to reflect the new circumstances in which we find ourselves.

Budget Statement

Baroness Penn Excerpts

Thursday 16th March 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Penn]

To move that this House takes note of the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s Spring Budget 2023.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Baroness Penn) (Con)]

My Lords, it is a privilege to open this debate on behalf of the Government and set out how we will move our economy on to a path of long-term sustainable growth. I start by welcoming my noble friend Lady Moyo to the House. I look forward to hearing her maiden speech. Given her distinguished career to date, I expect she will hold the Government’s feet firmly to the fire, especially when it comes to economic policy, and help us get our policies right.

In the autumn, we took difficult decisions to deliver stability and sound money. Since then, 10-year gilt rates have fallen, debt servicing costs are down, mortgage rates are lower and inflation has peaked. The Office for Budget Responsibility says that because of lower gas prices and the measures we are taking, together with our measures in the Autumn Statement, the UK will now not enter recession this year. The OBR forecasts that we will meet the Prime Minister's three economic priorities. Inflation is coming down and is on track to be more than halved by the end of the year: it is action that we are taking to help bring it down.

In this Budget, we confirmed that the energy price guarantee will remain at £2,500 for the next three months, saving the typical family a further £160 on top of the support we have already announced. We have ended the premium that 4 million households, often among the poorest, have to pay on their energy bills for having a prepayment meter. We have extended the alcohol duty freeze until August and will increase the generosity of draught relief, introducing a Brexit pubs guarantee. Because inflation remains high, we will maintain the 5p cut on fuel duty and keep it frozen for a further year, saving the average driver £100 next year and £200 since the policy was introduced. Finally, with communities strained by energy prices, we are providing £63 million to keep 275 local authority swimming pools afloat.

I turn to the Prime Minister’s second priority: reducing debt. Again, we are on track. We are meeting our fiscal rules to have debt falling as a percentage of GDP by the fifth year of the forecast, and to have public sector borrowing below 3% of GDP over the same period. In fact, our deficit falls in every single year of the forecast. In the final two years of the forecast, our current budget is in surplus, meaning we borrow only for investment and not day-to-day spending. Day-to-day departmental spending will grow at 1% a year on average in real terms after 2024-25, until the end of the forecast period, and capital plans are maintained at the same level set at the Autumn Statement. At the same time, taken together, today’s measures lead to an overall lower tax burden for the rest of the Parliament, compared to the OBR’s autumn forecast.

I turn to the Prime Minister's third priority and the focus of yesterday’s Budget: growth. Thirteen years ago, we had an economy that had crashed. Since 2010, we have grown more than major countries such as France, Italy and Japan. We have halved unemployment, cut inequality and reduced the number of workless households by 1 million. The World Bank says that, out of all the big European countries, we are the best place to do business. When it comes to the industries of the future, we are world leaders. Over the last 13 years, we have become the third trillion-dollar tech economy, after the US and China. We have the largest life sciences sector in Europe and the creative industries has grown at twice the rate of the rest of the economy. We are a world leader in offshore wind and our advanced manufacturing industries produce around half of the world’s large civil aircraft wings. These strengths make me optimistic for our future growth.

We should note what the OBR forecasts say. The OBR says that, after this year, the UK economy will grow in every single year of the forecast period: by 1.8% in 2024; 2.5% in 2025; 2.1% in 2026; and 1.9% in 2027. The OBR also expects unemployment to rise by less than 1%, to 4.4%, meaning 130,000 fewer people will be out of work compared to their autumn forecast.

On employment, to achieve the dynamic economy we all want, we cannot afford to waste the potential of anyone. That is why we will remove the barriers that stop people who want to work from getting into work. To help those who are sick or disabled back into work, we have published a White Paper on disability benefits reform, the biggest change to our welfare system in a decade. It will abolish the work capability assessment in Great Britain and separate benefit entitlement from an individual’s ability to work. As a result, disabled benefit claimants will always be able to seek work without fear of losing financial support. In England and Wales, we will fund a new programme called universal support. This is a new voluntary employment scheme for disabled people, where the Government will spend up to £4,000 per person to help them find appropriate jobs and put in place the support they need, funding 50,000 places every year. That comes on top of a £400 million plan to increase the availability of mental health and musculoskeletal resources and expand the individual placement and support scheme.

To help children in care enter the workforce when they reach adulthood, we are doubling the qualifying care relief to £18,140, which will increase the take-home pay of a qualifying carer by £450 a year. We will also double the funding we provide to the Staying Close programme, to help more care leavers into employment and support young people with special educational needs and disabilities to transition from education into the workplace, with a £3 million pilot expansion of the Department for Education’s supported internship programme. To encourage the 2 million people on universal credit without a health condition who are looking for work or only working a small number of hours, we will apply sanctions more rigorously to those who fail to meet strict work search requirements or choose not to take up a reasonable job offer. For those working low hours, we will increase the administrative earnings threshold from the equivalent of 15 hours to 18 hours at the national living wage for an individual claimant, meaning anyone who works below this level will receive more work coach support alongside a more intensive conditionality regime.

For those aged 50 to 64, with a wealth of experience we need in our workplaces, we will increase the number of people who will get the best possible financial, health and career guidance, well ahead of retirement, by increasing access to mid-life MoTs. The Department for Work and Pensions will increase fivefold the number of 50-plus universal credit claimants who receive mid-life MoTs, from 8,000 to 40,000. For experienced workers, we will also introduce a new apprenticeship targeted at over-50s, called “returnships”. These will bring together our existing skills programmes to make them more appealing for older workers, focusing on flexibility and previous experience to reduce training length.

We are also fully alive to the fact that many senior NHS clinicians say they are being advised to leave the workforce, just when the NHS needs them most, because of unexpected tax charges on their pensions. The NHS is our biggest employer and we will shortly publish the long-term workforce plan, but to make sure that they and other professions are not deterred from working, we will increase the pensions annual allowance to £60,000. We are abolishing the lifetime allowance altogether, to incentivise our most experienced and productive workers to stay in work across our economy for longer.

These measures will help turn us into a high-skilled, high-wage economy, but we know that one thing that holds people back is the insurmountable obstacle of high childcare costs, especially when their children are young. In 2010 there was barely any free childcare for under-fives. The Government changed that with free childcare for three and four year-olds in England, but we need to complete the job. That is why, in households where all adults are working at least 16 hours, we will introduce 30 hours of free childcare, not just for three and four year-olds but for every single child over the age of nine months. It is a package worth, on average, £6,500 every year for a family with a two year-old using 35 hours of childcare every week.

Because it is such a large reform, we will introduce it in stages to ensure that there is enough supply in the market. Working parents of two year-olds will be able to access 15 hours of free care from April 2024, helping around half a million families. From September 2024, that 15 hours will be extended to all children from nine months up, meaning a total of nearly 1 million families will be eligible. From September 2025, every single working parent of under-fives will have access to 30 hours of free childcare per week where they are eligible.

Ahead of that, we will help the 700,000 parents on universal credit who, until the reforms announced yesterday, had limited requirements to look for work. Many remain out of work because they cannot afford the upfront payment necessary to access subsidised childcare. We will increase the maximum they can claim to £951 for one child and £1,630 for two children—an increase of almost 50%. For any parent who is moving into work and wants to increase their hours, we will also pay their childcare costs up front.

That is the demand side. On the supply side, we will increase the funding paid to nurseries providing free childcare under the 30 hours offer by £204 million from this September, rising to £288 million next year. This is in addition to the funding provided to extend the offer to parents with children from nine months to two years old. To increase flexibility, we will change minimum staff-to-child ratios from 1:4 to 1:5 for two year-olds in England, as happens in Scotland.

To further increase the potential supply of childminders, au pairs and nannies, we will reopen the youth visa scheme unilaterally to anyone under the age of 35 from the United States, France, Spain, Germany, Italy and Holland. This will allow an additional 27,500 young people to come to work in the UK annually for up to two years.

For parents of school-age children, we will fund schools and local authorities to increase supply of wraparound care so that all parents of school-age children can drop their children off between 8 am and 6 pm. Our ambition is that all schools will start to offer wraparound childcare, either on their own or in partnership with other schools, by September 2026.

My right honourable friend the Chancellor also set out the Government’s commitment to continue to level up growth everywhere across the United Kingdom. Yesterday’s Budget announced 12 potential new investment zones, eligible for £80 million of investment, bringing together our leading research institutions with local government to remove barriers to growth in areas that need levelling up.

There is also over £200 million to fund high-quality local regeneration projects and £420 million for new levelling-up partnerships. A second round of the city region sustainable transport settlements, allocating £8.8 billion over the next five-year funding period, has been announced, and a further £200 million next year—bringing the total to £700 million—will be allocated to fix potholes.

For Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, this Budget delivers not only a new investment zone in each nation but an additional £320 million for the Scottish Government, £180 million for the Welsh Government and £130 million for the Northern Ireland Executive as a result of Barnett consequentials.

The Government will also consult on transferring responsibilities to support local economic development, currently delivered by local enterprise partnerships, to local authorities from April 2024.

Mayors will be given more financial autonomy with multiyear single settlements for the West Midlands and the Greater Manchester Combined Authority at the next spending review—something we envisage being rolled out to all mayoral areas over time. So that local leaders can continue to grow their own revenues by growing their local economy we have made a long-term commitment, in the next Parliament, that they can retain 100% of their business rates—again something we hope to roll out to other areas over time.

These steps will help us not just to grow but to share the benefits of growth across our country, but we must never forget that it is the private sector that helps drive this growth, so we are lowering business taxes to incentivise investment and tackle the productivity gap. Building on the increase of the annual investment allowance to £1 million, which covers the entire investment made by 99% of businesses, and following the end of the super-deduction, we will introduce a new policy of “full expensing” for the next three years. We will make this permanent as soon as we can responsibly do so. It will mean that, over that period, every single pound a company invests in new buildings, new IT or new machinery can be deducted from their taxable profits. It will mean a corporation tax cut worth £9 billion for every year that it is in place.

To encourage research and development, we are introducing an enhanced credit for small and medium-sized businesses that spend 40% or more of their total expenditure on research and development.

One of the reasons why we have succeeded in the past is our inclination toward innovation—our propensity not just to adapt but to drive change. Having left the EU, there is an opportunity to do so again.

With financial services reforms under way, we are now looking at regulations around life sciences, and we are lucky to have one of the most respected drugs regulators in the world in the MHRA. It will now move to a different model that will allow rapid and often nearly automatic sign-off for medicines already approved by trusted regulators in other countries such as the United States, Europe or Japan. At the same time, from next year it will set up a swift new approval process for the most cutting-edge medicines and devices to ensure the UK becomes a global centre for their development. An extra £10 million of funding over the next two years will put in place a plan to provide the quickest and simplest regulatory approval in the world for companies seeking rapid market access.

To strengthen our position in digital technology, we have accepted all nine of the digital tech recommendations made by Sir Patrick Vallance.

We are also making good on our pledge to direct our innovation toward a green economy by allocating up to £20 billion of support for the early development of carbon capture and storage projects across the UK as we work towards our goals in 2050. This will attract private investment, support up to 50,000 jobs and help capture 20 million to 30 million tonnes of CO₂ per year by 2030.

Alongside more public investment in nuclear, we are going to class it as “environmentally sustainable” in our green taxonomy, giving it access to the same investment incentives as renewable energy. This will not only deliver against our climate change goals but afford us energy security too. To support our wider security in a more dangerous world, having announced £5 billion of funding for the Ministry of Defence, the Budget confirmed an additional £11 billion over the next five years. By 2025, we will spend 2.25% of GDP on defence and endeavour to raise it to 2.5% as soon as the fiscal and economic conditions allow.

It has not been possible to condense the entirety of the Budget and its ambition into my opening remarks, but what should be clear is that we are bringing inflation down, debt down, and growth up. We have a plan that says to people: work will pay and pay well. We have a plan that is revolutionising childcare, reforming pensions and supporting disabled people. We have a plan to tear down barriers to growth, unlocking investment, incentivising innovation. It is a credible plan that will deliver economic success, growth and prosperity. I beg to move.

Budget Statement

Baroness Penn Excerpts

Thursday 16th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. Given the range of expertise that has been contributed today and the range of topics we have covered, I will spend my time directly answering as many of noble Lords’ comments as possible.

Many noble Lords reflected on the economic circumstances we find ourselves in. The current high levels of inflation we face, with increased costs for households and businesses, have a clear impact on growth. As my noble friend noted, the best tax cut we can give households and businesses is to get inflation back under control, and that is exactly what the OBR forecasts will happen.

My noble friend Lord Bridges asked about the difference between the Bank of England’s forecast and the OBR’s forecast, and the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, also spoke about the difficulties of producing forecasts in these times. Specifically on those differences, the Bank of England made its latest forecast in February and it was based on different market determinants from the time. In its economic and fiscal outlook, the OBR reports that the difference is driven by falling energy prices and interest rates since the Bank’s forecast and, as my noble friend Lord Willetts noted, a predicted greater recovery in labour force participation following the measures announced in the Budget.

Inflation will reach 2.9% by the end of the year, but we recognise that the next 12 months will put real pressure on people, particularly when it comes to their energy bills. The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, said that this Budget did nothing to help with that and I really must correct her. Not only did it extend the energy price guarantee at £2,500 for the next three months, it removed the pre-payment meter premium, which is something that this House has called for many times. It is also important to remember that significant further help announced in the Autumn Statement is still to be delivered to households across the country.

The noble Lord, Lord Bird, asked for universal credit to keep pace with inflation and that is exactly what will happen. Those relying on universal credit, the state pension and other means-tested benefits will see them go up in April by more than 10%, and we have further cost of living support payments worth £900 to be paid over the next year to 8 million households on means-tested benefits. Support payments of £300 will go to more than 8 million pensioner households next winter and £150 will be paid to those on disability benefits. It is very important that people know that further support with the cost of living is on its way. In fact, support to households to help with higher bills is worth £94 billion, or an average of £3,300 per household across this year and next.

The noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, said that there was no support for businesses with their energy bills. But the energy bills discount scheme will provide all eligible businesses and other non-domestic energy users with a discount on high energy bills until 31 March 2024, following the end of the current energy bill relief scheme. It will also provide businesses in sectors with particularly high levels of energy use and trade intensity with a higher level of support.

The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, asked why no equality impact assessment had been produced with this Budget. I reassure noble Lords that His Majesty’s Treasury has rigorous processes in place to ensure that we comply with our legal requirements. We go beyond these by publishing a summary of equality impacts for tax measures within the tax information and impact notes alongside the Finance Bill.

When it comes to distributional analysis, that was published in the 2023 Spring Budget and it shows that the typical household at any income level will see a net benefit next year following government decisions made in the Autumn Statement 2022 and onwards. Low-income households will receive the largest benefit in cash terms and as a percentage of income from government decisions. Furthermore, looking across all tax, welfare and spending decisions made since the 2019 spending round, the impact of government action continues to be progressive, with the poorest households receiving the largest benefit both in cash terms and as a percentage of income in 2024.

The noble Lords, Lord Eatwell, Lord Bilimoria and Lord Tunnicliffe, and many others spoke about the impact of the freeze on tax thresholds, announced last spring and extended in the Autumn Statement. It is true that, after a colossal effort to fight Covid, with the Government spending over £370 billion on measures to support the NHS and our economy, we have had to take difficult decisions to get our public finances back on track.

We have frozen tax thresholds and, as we will come to, we have asked businesses to contribute more, through increased corporation tax rates. However, I say to my noble friend Lord Bellingham and others that 70% of businesses will see no change to their corporation tax headline rate, because small businesses are exempted, and only 10% of businesses will pay that top rate of 25%.

When it comes to the personal tax threshold freeze, noble Lords should note that, even after the freezes that we are putting in place, the changes we have put in place since 2010 mean that someone on an average salary will still pay £1,000 less in income tax and national insurance next year than if thresholds had gone up in line with inflation since 2010. Thresholds will be higher at the end of the period of the freeze than if they had been simply increased with inflation since 2010.

We had to take some difficult decisions on the public finances but that does mean—I hope this offers some reassurance to my noble friends Lord Bridges and Lady Lawlor—that we are bearing down on debt and have the deficit falling in every year of the OBR forecast. That means we are projected to meet the Prime Minister’s second pledge: to get debt falling. Indeed, total managed expenditure as a percentage of GDP is forecast to fall in each year of the forecast. We have also launched an efficiency and spending review; as part of the Autumn Statement 2022, departments have been asked to identify further efficiencies, building on the 5% efficiency challenge set at the 2021 spending review.

This brings me to the third pledge from the Prime Minister on our economy: to get it growing. My noble friend Lady Moyo spoke so eloquently about the importance of growth as a prerequisite of good public services, as a precursor to innovation and as a necessity for a healthy democratic society. That is why the Chancellor focused on making this a Budget for growth.

The noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, spoke of his frustration at what he saw as the artificial constraints that the design of fiscal rules has placed on investing in growth. I welcome that debate; although we may have different views on their design, I hope we can both agree on the importance of having a framework in place to maintain fiscal credibility, as was well expressed by my noble friend Lady Lea of Lymm.

I very much agree with noble Lords on the importance of investment. I welcome the point made by the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, that, when it comes to areas such as corporation tax, we should not focus solely on the headline rate—although that remains the lowest in the G7—but look at how we build incentives into that tax. Full expensing will be a tax cut for businesses investing, worth around £9 billion a year, and I acknowledge that noble Lords would like that to be made permanent. The Chancellor has said he would like that too, when fiscal circumstances allow. However, it is worth noting that the increase in the annual allowance to £1 million is permanent and amounts to full expensing for 99% of businesses in this country.

I reassure the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, that the Government do not see the solution to investment in this country as something for only the private sector to do. We are continuing to deliver the biggest programme of capital investment in 40 years, and public sector net investment will be 2.5% of GDP on average over the forecast period, delivering more than £600 billion of planned public sector gross investment over the next five years.

My noble friend Lady Moyo spoke of the most effective investment being multidecade in timeframe, and when public and private sources of investment come together. That is exactly what we are seeking to do through our commitment to £20 billion of support to the early deployment of carbon capture, usage and storage, allowing the Government to enter commercial negotiations with successful emitter projects and providing certainty over revenue streams to stimulate private investment.

The noble Lord, Lord Fox, spoke about our response to the US Inflation Reduction Act, and other noble Lords mentioned plans in Europe. Our approach to CCUS shows that we have a plan to stimulate investment in our green industries but in our own way, building on the success that we have had, for example, on contracts for difference with offshore wind, which has led us to be the second-largest producer of offshore wind in the world, behind only China. Further, the launch of Great British Nuclear and the competition for small modular reactors, along with our commitment to Sizewell C, show an ongoing commitment to the UK nuclear industry and to meeting our net-zero targets.

Many noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, welcomed the announcement of investment zones, which will grow clusters in one of our five future growth sectors, partnering great research institutions with local areas. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Fox, that each investment zone will have access to up to £80 million of funding, but this is also about policy flexibility, to allow for greater collaboration and to address the needs of each individual area. He asked about environmental standards in investment zones. I reassure him that the Government are committed to ensuring that investment zones uphold the UK’s high environmental standards and meet our international commitments.

As well as our plans to support investment, many noble Lords focused on the workforce measures that we included in this Budget. The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, asked about the Government’s planned changes to remove the work capability assessment and whether we will also reform the PIP assessment process. While many people claiming health and disability benefits have a positive experience, we want to improve the overall experience and trust in the benefits system for disabled people. We are doing this by making it easier to communicate and engage with us by improving the accessibility of our services and buildings. We are also testing new initiatives to make it easier to apply for and receive health and disability benefits.

The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, also asked why there was no mention of social care. She will know that the Government are investing record levels of funding in response to the pressures facing both health and social care services. It was at the Autumn Statement 2022 that we made available up to £6.1 billion for the next year and £8 billion in 2024 in additional funding for the NHS and adult social care.

That brings me on to the pension tax changes made in this Budget, which were remarked on by many noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, and my noble friends Lord Bridges and Lord Willetts. I will try to address the different points raised. The aim of our pension tax changes is to incentivise highly skilled and experienced individuals to remain in the labour market, bringing the benefit of their knowledge and experience to the UK labour force. Some noble Lords said that this measure is too expensive. My noble friend Lord Willetts helped me on this in terms of the cost per additional worker in the workforce being similar for this measure compared with childcare measures.

Noble Lords then said that it was poorly targeted because, while the childcare measures have the benefit of helping potentially lower-income households, these measures will be targeted at those people who are relatively better off. Again, my noble friend Lord Willetts helped me by pointing to the benefits of the policy being not only about the recipient of the tax relief but about its wider effect. Here, we are focused on a big change in retaining senior clinicians in our NHS workforce. The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, was sceptical about the difference that this policy change would make to retaining those clinicians. I have two quotes: the shadow Health Secretary, Wes Streeting, said that the cap on doctors’ pensions was “crazy” and it would “inevitably save lives” to scrap it; and the BMA said that scrapping the lifetime allowance is

“an incredibly important step forward and … potentially transformative for the NHS as senior doctors will no longer be forced to retire early and can continue to work within the NHS, providing vital patient care.”

The BMA went on to say that

“the Chancellor has acted decisively to avert a major workforce crisis”.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, then asked why we did not focus the measure solely on doctors. He gave one of the answers himself, saying that we passed a law to change pension provision for senior judges. We can bring in this tax change by April for the start of the new tax year. Another reason why we have not limited it to one profession, as the noble Lord will also know as he has raised other cases with me in the past, is that these reforms will benefit experienced key workers, including head teachers, police chiefs, senior personnel in the Armed Forces, air traffic controllers and prison governors.

The noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, asked about the interaction with inheritance tax. I reassure him that the costings produced and published at Spring Budget with regard to the lifetime allowance included the inheritance tax impacts for the scorecard period. I further say to him that the primary purpose of a pension is to provide an income in retirement. If someone dies before they get to use it, we think it is right that beneficiaries can inherit those funds, and they are not usually part of someone’s estate for inheritance tax purposes. We are aware that some people may use their pensions to try to reduce their inheritance tax liabilities rather than to provide for their retirement. We do not think that pensions should be used as a vehicle primarily for inheritance tax planning and we will keep all aspects of the tax system under review.

I turn last, but by no means least, to the Government’s plans for childcare. In my enthusiasm for announcing our substantial reforms in this area, I made an error in my speech. I made reference to youth mobility schemes. I need to clarify that those schemes have not been agreed but are something that we would like to explore with international partners over coming months and years. I apologise for inadvertently misleading the House on that matter.

However, I was pleased to hear so many noble Lords welcome the policy on childcare; it will be truly transformative. The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, asked whether the free hours would be adequately funded. I reassure noble Lords that the Government will provide £4.1 billion of funding by 2027-28 to provide 33 hours for nine months to three years, and we will provide £204 million from September next year to uplift the existing rates for providers. The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, asked about the changes to ratios. Noble Lords will know that this move is in line with many other comparator countries in Europe and indeed Scotland. The change is optional for providers, but DfE will continue to closely monitor the quality of care in early years settings, including through Ofsted.

The noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, quoted the Sutton Trust. He is right that the aim of the policy is to remove the costs of childcare as a barrier for parents who want to return to work, so the extension of free hours is for working parents. To make that transition even easier, for those who are on universal credit we have increased the amount that they can claim for childcare through universal credit and are paying that amount up front.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, asked what impact the policy would have on employment. The OBR expects that by 2027-28 around 60,000 more people will enter employment, and around 1.5 million mothers will increase the hours they work as a result of this policy. The OBR has further said that the policy has by far the largest impact on potential output in this Budget.

In my speech, I may have been the Tigger to my noble friend Lord Bridges’ Eeyore, but I reassure noble Lords that the Government are under no illusions about the challenges that we face both at home and with the increased threat picture abroad. To my noble friends Lord Howell of Guildford and Lord Tugendhat, I say that that is why in this Budget we have provided an additional £11 billion for defence and national security priorities over the next five years, with nearly £5 billion going in during the next two years to improve the resilience and readiness of our Armed Forces. This is on top of the spending review 2020 cash uplift of £24 billion over the spending review period for defence, which is the largest sustained increased since the end of the Cold War.

What of the Government’s final goal of growth? The Spring Budget made the biggest increase to supply reforms that the OBR has ever scored in its forecast, bringing 110,000 workers into the workforce and increasing GDP by 0.2%. My noble friend Lord Bridges is also correct that population change contributes a further 0.5% to potential output.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, asked about the recovery of our economy since the Covid pandemic. When you look at private sector output, you see that our economy has more than recovered since the pandemic. The picture is different on public sector output, but that makes the figure not very comparable with other international countries as we measure our statistics in a different way.

Overall, supported by policy and underlying conditions, the OBR has revised GDP upwards in every single year of this forecast. With inflation down, debt falling, growth going up, and transformative policies for investment in our growth and in childcare to get people back to work, this is a Budget that I can commend to the House.

Motion agreed.