UK Infrastructure Bank Bill [HL]

Baroness Penn Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Tuesday 14th March 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Penn]

That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 1 and 2.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Baroness Penn) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall speak also to the other amendments and that in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman.

I start with Commons Amendment 2. As was noted in the other place, the Government agree that the bank will make it a stipulation that any investment into the water sector must be in line with the company having an appropriate plan and making sufficient progress against that plan to deal with sewage discharges. However, I want to make it clear that in this circumstance the word “preventing” is aimed principally at preventing harmful discharges and does not mean eliminating all discharges. I want to make this distinction in the House because I do not want the bank to be prevented by fear of legal action from investing in water companies which have a plan in place to meet their obligations.

I reassure the House that the Government are already taking major steps to improve water quality. We have announced legally binding targets on water quality under the Environment Act and ambitious interim targets to deliver these in our environmental improvement plan.

This Government have also implemented the strictest ever targets to crack down on poor water company performance. On sewage spills, our storm overflows plan requires companies to deliver the largest ever environmental infrastructure investment—£56 billion over 25 years. Where water companies are found to have broken the law and face fines for this behaviour, this Government have committed to reinvest those fines directly back into schemes to improve our water environment.

Commons Amendment 3 removes the Lords amendment to include nature-based solutions and the circular economy in the definition of infrastructure. As noble Lords will recall, we debated this issue extensively in this House and it came up frequently in the Commons. At the time, I noted that nature-based solutions were already included under the inclusive definition of infrastructure and, as such, we did not think it necessary to add it explicitly in the Bill. The Government have reflected on the debate and recognise the strength of feeling on the matter and, as such, think the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, strikes a careful balance of making it clear that nature-based solutions are within the bank’s remit without being overly prescriptive.

The Government agree with the removal of the circular economy from the definition. We do not think including the circular economy—which is an imprecise term—in the definition of infrastructure would be helpful for the bank. However, I thank all noble Lords, and in particular the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, for raising this issue during the passage of the Bill. We reassure them that the circular economy is an incredibly important principle and will be key as we transition to a more sustainable economy in a number of sectors. While we do not wish to expand the scope of the bank, I reassure the noble Lord that several of the areas highlighted in the debate on the circular economy are covered within its existing remit and objectives; for example, nature-based solutions, waste and energy efficiency, as was clarified in an earlier amendment to the Bill. I therefore anticipate that the bank will invest in and be a key proponent of a circular economy wherever it is in line with the overall objectives.

Commons Amendment 4 removes subsection (6) from Clause 2 of the Bill. The subsection included the wording “have regard to”, but this would still have had a significant impact on the bank. For example, on improving jobs, we understand the intention of the amendment and do not disagree with it as a general principle. However, we are concerned that there may be consequences if the principle were to be applied across the board as a statutory requirement in relation to every investment proposal. It could lead to the bank being overly cautious for fear of legal challenge.

The second part of this subsection, on reducing regional inequality, is also of concern. We do not want the bank to be under a statutory duty to consider regional disparities in the same way in relation to every investment proposal that comes before it. The strategic steer makes it clear that the bank must focus on geographic inequalities. However, this is best done on a portfolio basis rather than investment by investment, which would be required by the proposed amendment.

Although the Government agree with the Commons amendment, we recognise the concern of the House, and I pay tribute to the work of the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, on this matter. I recommit to this House that after the Bill achieves Royal Assent the Government will amend the bank’s framework document to provide clarity on the role on the bank in levelling up the United Kingdom. We will include under the operating principles the wording:

“The bank will also address the spatial disparities across and within UK regions.”


This is in addition to the wording already in the framework document under its second objective:

“to support regional and local economic growth through better connectedness, opportunities for new jobs and higher levels of productivity”.

Commons Amendments 5, 6, and 9 concern provisions to add a duty to consult relevant Ministers in the devolved Administrations on the use of delegated legislative powers in the Bill, including the power to amend the bank’s activities or the definition of “infrastructure”, and to issue the strategic steer. Commons Amendment 7 is related and sets out a requirement for UKIB’s board to appoint one or more directors to be responsible for ensuring that the interests of the devolved Administrations are considered in the board’s decision-making. These amendments have come as a direct result of positive engagement we have had with the devolved Administrations, and I am pleased to say we have received legislative consent Motions from the Welsh and Scottish legislatures. Unfortunately, given that the Executive have not formed, it was not possible to get a legislative consent Motion from the Northern Ireland Assembly.

Given we are on the subject of the board of directors, I know that the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, was interested in whether the bank would appoint a workers’ representative to the board. I reassure him that the bank is abiding with the requirements of the corporate governance code and has appointed a non-executive director, Marianne Økland, to facilitate engagement with the workforce.

Commons Amendment 8 reduces the time period for statutory reviews of the bank following the first such review from seven to five years. This balance reflects the fact that we need to allow a nascent institution time to embed and fully establish itself in the market, which is why the first review will take place after seven years. However, subsequent statutory reviews will take place every five years to ensure proper scrutiny of the bank’s performance.

Commons Amendments 1 and 10 are of a technical nature and broaden the definition of “public authority” in relation to the bank’s capacity to lend. The drafting as is broadly meets the policy aims and would allow the bank to lend to local authorities and the Northern Ireland Executive. However, given that primary legislation can be something of a blunt instrument, we do not want inadvertently and by implication to preclude the bank from lending to other public authorities, such as any public bodies created by local authorities or government departments in future.

Finally, as is standard for a Bill that starts in the Lords and concerns matters of public finance, a privilege amendment was passed. Commons Amendment 11 removed this.

The Government have listened to concerns in both Houses and have made changes to improve the Bill. I look forward to the debate and hope that noble Lords will accept these amendments. I beg to move.

[Baroness Hayman (CB)]

I declare my interest as co-chair of Peers for the Planet and rise to speak to my Motion 3A, which as the Minister said would reintroduce nature-based solutions into the definition of infrastructure in which the UK Infrastructure Bank may invest.

We had some very helpful conversations after Report and the debates in the other place, and I think we have now reached a highly satisfactory position on this amendment, in no small part due to the Minister’s customary constructive approach to the debates that have taken place in this House, for which I am very grateful.

Of course, the original amendment included the “circular economy”, and I know that there will be some disappointment that that is not included now, but the bank’s strategy is reassuring on that issue. Anyone who listened to the item on the “Today” programme this morning about data centres using the heat they normally have to dispose of to heat up the water in local swimming pools will have heard a lovely example of how we need to put those sorts of issues together.

I thank all the Members of this House who have taken part in the debates, and in particular those who signed the various iterations of my amendment, including the noble Lord, Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth, the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, and the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. This amendment has had significant cross-party support because of the increased recognition that nature-based solutions have a critical role to play in the fulfilment of the bank’s objectives. The Chancellor’s strategic steer in 2022 encouraged the bank to

“explore early opportunities in nature-based solutions”

and aim to have

“a positive impact on the development of the market”.

The bank has since published a discussion paper setting out its initial thinking on how it can invest in and support the growth of natural capital markets, and I look forward to the results of this consultation.

The discussion paper clearly explains the importance of natural capital as a form of infrastructure and the vital contributions it makes to our society and economy, often in ways which are more cost-effective to the taxpayer. Carbon removals through creating and restoring woodlands, wetlands and peatlands, flood mitigation measures, providing “clean and reliable” water supplies, underpinning our food security and bolstering our resilience to climate change: these constitute numerous examples of how we can deploy nature-based solutions to support our infrastructure and provide social, economic and environmental benefits. There is also an ever-increasing recognition of the key role that nature can play in solving climate change, nature being our biggest asset with which to fight it. Nature-based solutions also provide significant co-benefits, such as jobs and good health and well-being outcomes, with considerable economic advantages.

I welcome that the UK is leading on the Taskforce on Nature-related Financial Disclosures, but there is an average $700 billion funding gap for protecting and restoring nature globally, and evidence that more needs to be done to help market participants mainstream and scale these products alongside growing investor demand. This simple addition to the definition of infrastructure in the Bill sends a strong signal to the markets that the UK recognises this and the Government are serious about taking action to help build and develop this nascent market. It also provides certainty to the bank, which recognises that it has a role in developing capacity towards a pipeline of investable projects and is poised to act. It will encourage others to do the same and further develop the UK finance sector’s position as a leader in this important emerging new market.

As I said, I am very grateful to the Minister and her officials for the support they have given and the resolution that I think we have reached.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister, both for her introduction today and for a helpful briefing held last week. When your Lordships’ House considered the Bill in the first half of last year, we were told that passing it should be a mere formality. The UK Infrastructure Bank was already operating, having made its first handful of investment decisions. The Bill was therefore essentially a technical exercise to give the organisation statutory underpinning. The Government resisted several sensible amendments, including one on worker representation on the bank’s board, partly on the basis that this legislation needed to be on the statute book quickly. I pause to note that the inclusion of a non-executive director at least moves in that direction. I thank the Minister, as I do for everywhere in the Bill where she has persuaded the Government to seek compromise.

However, in reality, it took some time for the Bill to get through the other place. The legislation having been introduced last July, Second Reading did not take place until November and Report not until last month. The delay was presumably the result of the Conservative Party’s summer of chaos, with a succession of Prime Ministers and Chancellors of the Exchequer, and—if I remember correctly—a short period when the noble Baroness was not a Minister on this subject. We are back to our familiar form. The extra time has seemingly allowed Ministers to reflect, in some areas at least, as evidenced by the various Commons amendments that we are debating today.

We welcome the clarifications around the definition of “public authorities” and the importance of costed plans should UKIB funds be used to support the work of water companies. The devolved provisions, which have facilitated the passing of legislative consent Motions—something of a novelty in recent years—are also welcome. We are also glad that the Minister and the Bill team have been persuaded of the merits of including nature-based solutions in the definition of infrastructure.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, made a persuasive argument but, as we have often seen, that does not always lead to the Government making a concession. I pause again, however, to note, as happens with so many Bills, the extent to which she and her supporters are making incremental progress in embracing the green thrust. Even now, I have a bit of optimism that we might move quickly enough to save at least some of the planet that we now enjoy. It is good to see that thrust building on both sides of the House. I hope that in a couple of years the sides will change but, if one has that general direction in the membership and on the Front Benches, it is possible that we will get there. In another two years we may be passing green amendments that will amaze us when we look back five years, at when some official or other said, “You can’t put green in there because it is nothing to do with the Bill”. We have put green in here and have persuaded people that it is something to do with the Bill.

I understand the disappointment of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, with regard to the circular economy, but that concept will become ever more apparent and he will no doubt have other opportunities to promote it.

I regret that the Government have overturned my amendment. Colleagues may think, “You would say that, wouldn’t you?”, but I remain unconvinced of the Government’s reasoning for removing their own levelling- up mission from the Bill. I reluctantly accept the offer to make changes to the bank’s framework document and articles of association after the Bill receives Royal Assent. It is not exactly where we want to be but it is a small step in the right direction.

Finally, we gladly accept the reduction of the interval between reports on the bank’s effectiveness. I was somewhat amused by this, as we were previously told that an interval of five years was simply not practical and could even somehow undermine the bank’s work.

Overall, while the Bill is a short, technical piece of legislation, the UK Infrastructure Bank could make a significant contribution to some of the big challenges that we face. We fully support the bank and, while there may be cause to revisit its mandate in the future, we wish it well in its work. Again we thank the Minister for her co-operation in bringing us to this consensus position.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, the Bill is mercifully short, so I shall also keep my remarks brief. I thank all noble Lords who have spoken today and who contributed when we took the Bill through its substantive stages in this House a while back. I reassure them that the time it has taken for the Bill to progress is not unusual: I was working on the skills Bill in this House, went off on maternity leave and was back in time for ping-pong, so it is not necessarily an unusual passage for a Bill in Parliament.

I reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, that the Government are committed to moving towards a more circular economy which will see us keeping resources in use as long as possible, extracting maximum value from them, minimising waste and promoting resource efficiency. I hope I made that clear in my opening remarks. When it came to including a legal definition of “infrastructure” in the Bill, that is where my remarks about the potentially imprecise nature of the terms lay, but it does not reflect a broader lack of understanding or commitment by the Government to that agenda.

I also reassure the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, that His Majesty’s Treasury is very much committed to ensuring that nature and climate change are on the agenda for the Government and that we meet our global goals, committed to both in terms of Paris alignment and the new framework agreed at COP 15 in Montreal at the end of last year. He knows better than most that we published the Dasgupta review that looked at the role of nature in our economy. We have had an amendment to the Bill today, and that commitment will be ongoing.

Most noble Lords were very kind in not replaying my words on the review period for the bank. All I can say is that it is always a pleasure to listen to the contributions of noble Lords and be persuaded of the art of the possible. I am pleased with the changes that we have been able to make to the Bill; I think these have shown how effective Parliament can be in scrutinising our legislation. The UK Infrastructure Bank has transformative potential, which I know is recognised and supported on all sides of the House. I beg to move.

Motion on Amendments 1 and 2 agreed.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Penn]

That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 3.

Amendment to the Motion on Amendment 3

Moved by

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Penn]

That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 4 to 11.

Motion on Amendments 4 to 11 agreed.

Silicon Valley Bank

Baroness Penn Excerpts

Tuesday 14th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement, albeit in the graveyard shift: she could have got in a bit earlier. Having read through the details of the events of the last weekend, I can understand why the Statement veers towards the slightly triumphalist: the sale of Silicon Valley Bank to HSBC averted existential problems for a huge number of UK tech businesses, and I am sure the Minister and colleagues are pleased to have done this. We should congratulate the Treasury and the Bank of England, as well as Coadec, Tech London Advocates and BVCA on the industry side, all of which came together very swiftly over the weekend. But where do we go from here?

First, can the Minister confirm that there will be a full investigation, both to confirm how this happened and, more importantly, what lessons can be drawn? One lesson we can all observe is that bank runs in the social media age happen in hours rather than days: the speed with which the run on this bank happened points, I think, to future issues if we ever came to them. As we know, Silicon Valley Bank’s UK wing oversaw roughly £7 billion in deposits from 3,000 entities across the country’s important tech industries and, contrary to US reports, it was not ring-fenced from its US parent. My first specific question is how we ended up in a situation where a huge proportion of a vital sector of the UK economy was reliant on one regional US bank. I am sure the answer is not simple, but it is important. For example, accessing connections to venture capital may have led banks to SVB, but there is also evidence that the traditional UK banks just do not have the appetite to take up this kind of business. Where will the tech start-ups go now for funding, especially in an environment where capital is getting more scarce?

History tells us that, when interest rates rise as fast and by so much as they have during the past period, bad things nearly always happen. It is a near certainty that one of two outcomes will occur: recession or a bank crash—sometimes both. I am sure we all hope that the failure of SVB, the closure of Signature Bank and the Tory-created crisis in UK government bonds and the pension sector are just outliers and do not herald something worse. They may, indeed, be one-offs; however, it seems to me that the Government, the Treasury and the Bank of England have to err on the side of caution. Can the Minister assure us that the tone of this announcement does not indicate a sense in our financial institutions that their work is done?

The SVB crash epitomises the risks buried in our financial system as central banks rapidly lifted borrowing costs. SVB’s unhedged investments in long-term, fixed-rate, government-backed debt securities left it doubly exposed to rising interest rates because it reversed tech companies’ growth and hit the price of its securities. There may be other issues that unwind when investigation of this bank carries on—we will have to wait and see—but how did the US regulators miss the issue at the heart of SVB? Since the 2008 financial crisis, the focus has been on liquidity, although I would suggest that not even that has been particularly successful. Interest rates have grabbed little attention because they had not posed a significant threat in recent decades, but they do now.

Can the Minister confirm that the Government have asked the Bank of England to review the stress tests it conducts in order to take into consideration the rapid rise in interest rates? Can the Minister confirm that the tests will be extended into the so-called shadow banking sector, which is increasingly grabbing large slices of business traditionally carried out by banks? Can the Minister also assure your Lordships’ House that the necessary horizon scanning is under way?

I do not think anyone predicted the LDI issue in the autumn, and I do not think anyone pointed to a sector-focused regional bank like SVB being the source of a crisis. So where could the next crisis come from? I can offer three options in the current environment: insurance funds investing in illiquid assets; overvalued real estate; and private equity funds with opaque valuations. I am sure the big brains in the Treasury will be much better at navigating the complex and interwoven investment landscape and come up with a better list to enable them to avoid unpleasant surprises. Can the Minister confirm that there are people digging down into the systemic risks which are buried deep inside the highly complex finance systems and finance products that exist around the world today?

At the heart of this is also politics. Republicans have loosened US bank regulations in recent years and banks such as SVB had previously lobbied successfully to be excluded from the category of systemically important banks—that meant they faced lower capital and liquidity standards. We are not immune from the same political pressures in this country. The Edinburgh reforms announced late last year also point towards deregulation, not least in the plan to reform the ring-fencing regime for banks.

But more than that, and as the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, referred to, we can see this trend in the Financial Services and Markets Bill that is currently being debated by your Lordships. For example, Clause 24 in that Bill requires the FCA to help drive the international competitiveness of the economy of the United Kingdom, in particular the financial services sector—help drive the competitiveness of the economy. This creates a huge conflict of interest within the FCA, and in light of the SVB it looks at least questionable. Can the Minister confirm that this clause will be reviewed with a view to future amendment when the Bill comes back on Report?

Finally, after 2008 the Government and the financial sector all said “Never again”, and there were significant changes to the banking regulations; much of this was based on a report led by Sir John Vickers. Speaking today on the BBC, Sir John said that the country made advances in 2009 and we must not row back on these advances. He explicitly said that the Edinburgh reforms should be reviewed again and that ring-fencing should be maintained. I would remind the Minister that, failing anything better, the Government are the scrutiniser in chief, and the buck stops with the Government. Will the Minister listen to Sir John and halt the slide towards deregulation in this country?

[The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Baroness Penn) (Con)]

My Lords, as noble Lords have recognised, the course of events over the weekend was a good outcome for the customers of Silicon Valley Bank in the UK and an example of the Bank of England, in consultation with the Treasury, using powers granted by the Banking Act 2009, as part of the post-crisis reforms, to safely manage the failure of a bank and, in this case, facilitate its sale, which has protected those customers and taxpayers. I add my thanks to both noble Lords’ to the officials in the Treasury and at the regulators who worked tirelessly through the weekend to grip the situation and prevent real jeopardy to hundreds of the UK’s most innovative companies.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, asked whether any assessment was made of the significant liquidity risks associated with SVB UK’s deposit base at the time its licence was granted. Those authorisation decisions are for the independent regulators to comment on. However, requiring SVB to subsidiarise meant that it was independently capitalised from its parent in the US and had its own liquidity buffers. That brought the firm into the scope of the UK’s resolution regime. Had SVB UK remained a branch, it would have been resolved by the US resolution authority as part of action taken with respect to SVB.

That distinction is important to make in relation to a few of the points from the noble Lord, Lord Fox, in looking at the potential differences between the regulation and the regime in the US and the regime in the UK. However, there is read-across between the two. That is why we have measures in place to ensure that banks that are of systemic risk to different jurisdictions have cross-jurisdiction oversight, and that regulators work together on these matters.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, also asked about the ring-fencing changes made to facilitate the sale. To ensure the sale could proceed, the Government used powers under the Banking Act to provide HSBC with an exemption to certain ring-fencing requirements. This was crucial to ensure that a successful transaction could be executed, that the bank had the liquidity it needs, and that deposits and public funds were protected. We broadened an existing exception in the ring-fencing regime, allowing HSBC’s ring-fenced bank to provide intragroup lending to SVB UK. This should facilitate the smooth operation of SVB UK. In addition, SVB UK, which is now a subsidiary of HSBC’s ring-fenced bank, is not subject to the ring-fencing rules.

Both noble Lords spoke about the importance of doing everything possible to ensure that there is confidence in the UK’s financial system. We absolutely agree with the importance of that, which is why the UK authorities took such swift and decisive action this weekend to facilitate the sale of the firm. The noble Lord, Lord Fox, noted how quickly events unfolded. It is certainly true that the timeline including the weekend gave the time and space for such a resolution to be found, but that only adds to the point about the speed at which these events can take place.

Both noble Lords also asked about the stress test system for banks and about launching a wider systemic review of the risks facing the financial sector, including non-bank risks. Of course, both noble Lords will know that that is the role of the Financial Policy Committee of the Bank of England, which is responsible for identifying, monitoring and addressing systemic risks to financial stability.

The FPC meets quarterly, following which a record of its discussions is published. It produces a biannual financial stability report setting out its assessment of the risks facing the financial system and its resilience. It looks at it for the non-banking sector, but also sets the scenarios and coverage used for stress tests within the banking sector. Those decisions remain with the Financial Policy Committee.

Both noble Lords also rightly pointed out that, while we reached a good resolution in this instance, it is of course right that we reflect on what happened and look at whether any lessons can be learned. I can confirm that the Treasury and the Bank of England are looking to work together to ensure that we reflect properly on the events in this case.

Finally, both noble Lords also referenced the reforms that we are currently taking through this House in the Financial Services and Markets Bill and through the wider Edinburgh reforms set out by the Chancellor in December. I assure all noble Lords that the Financial Services and Markets Bill introduces ambitious reforms for a financial services sector that will give the UK the ability to continue to grow and be internationally competitive with other markets, while adhering to the highest-quality regulatory standards. As my honourable friend the Economic Secretary to the Treasury said to the House of Commons yesterday, having good, healthy businesses that grow and are profitable is the best way to avoid jeopardy. The Bill and the Edinburgh reforms deliver that commitment. We are confident that our reforms will deliver a high-quality regulatory environment for our financial services sector in future.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

I know it is unconventional, but will the Minister advise us whether the lessons learned report is going to be published?

[Lord Fox (LD)]

The Minister is getting a job lot of questions. I was hoping to hear her say that the shift in danger has gone from being just about liquidity to being about a lot of things connected with interest rates. We saw that in the autumn and again this week. When I suggested that the Treasury talk to the Bank of England about stress tests, I was suggesting not that the Treasury did the stress testing but that we would all be much more comfortable if we knew that shift had been taken on board and would inculcate future stress tests.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The point I was trying to make is that I am sure the Financial Policy Committee of the Bank of England will want to consider that. It updates its approach to stress testing both for banks and in its wider assessment of the risks to the financial sector more broadly. The noble Lord is not wrong in painting a picture of a changed context. We can also look at it for LDI, for example. While that is something for the FPC to take forward, I recognise the noble Lord’s points about that changed context. I hope that the points I made about how it holds its meetings and provides transparency about its considerations will reassure noble Lords about that process.

I will have to come back to the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, about the lessons learned and whether this reflection will be published. I do not know what form it will take. With the LDI process, interim findings have already been made public for people to take forward, but there is also further work. I imagine that a similar process may be followed here, but I will confirm this to noble Lords.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I have been reading paragraph 11 of this Statement against paragraph 17. Paragraph 11 rather surprisingly says that

“the system worked as we would hope.”

Paragraph 17 notes that officials at the Treasury and regulators

“worked tirelessly through the weekend to grip the situation … and to prevent real jeopardy to hundreds of the UK’s most innovative companies.”—[Official Report, Commons, 13/3/23; cols. 560-61.]

As the noble Lord, Lord Fox, observed, it was lucky that it was a weekend. We surely do not want to have our financial sector and the stability of our economy dependent on that kind of luck.

Paragraph 11 states:

“the system worked as we would have hoped.”

If this is really how the system is supposed to work, I suggest that we need a new or at least significantly reformed system—a more secure, stable, less fragile system than what followed the collapse of the Silicon Valley Bank at the weekend. The noble Lord, Lord Fox, talked about the speed at which events happen these days. There is a Bloomberg article headlined, “The Digital Age Ushers In A Speedier, More Viral Breed of Bank Run”, and I think that was clearly demonstrated here.

The Minister mentioned the Financial Services and Markets Bill, which refers to maintaining the UK’s position as an open and global financial hub. Have not the events of the weekend demonstrated the extreme dangers of pushing that as far as we possibly can, and the dangers of Clause 24, on the competitiveness of UK markets, which the Finance Innovation Lab, among many others, has noted is a push towards deregulation—to reduce regulation and increase risk—when it is clear we cannot afford the amount of risk we have now, as demonstrated by this case and the events involving our pensions last October? As we speak, the situation with Credit Suisse in Europe is still very unclear, as is that of a number of US banks.

Will the Government take a real look at the Financial Services and Markets Bill and their positioning of the UK’s financial sector, and look for a safe, secure sector that meets the needs of the real economy, rather than chasing growth?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

On the noble Baroness’s final point, I do not think that those two aims need to contradict each other. In fact, the Financial Services and Markets Bill aims to deliver on both. I emphasise to the House the importance of a healthy financial services sector to growing our economy in all parts of our country. I point out to the noble Baroness that no one has said that the events over the weekend have brought into question the UK’s prudential regulatory regime and the protections we have put in place.

However, the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, about the changing context and being able to remain dynamic in our assessment of the risks and, therefore, in looking at how our system works, is absolutely right. The world changes very quickly and there is absolutely no room for complacency here. But do I think that the reforms we are proposing in the Bill are right? Do I think they will both promote growth in the UK and protect the safety and soundness of our system? I do, and we will continue to strike that balance as we take our reforms forward.

[Lord Grantchester (Lab)]

Although the main reason for Silicon Valley Bank’s collapse may be its poor handling of the bond market, whether or not augmented by aggressive raising of interest rates by the Fed in the US and turbulence from the Truss era in London, nevertheless, the fact that the bank’s business was focused on new technology and innovation has raised some alarm. Can the Minister give the House an assurance that the technology sector, with its own stresses, has been protected by the transfer to the safe haven of HSBC, and that the drive to net zero and the raising of finance for that imperative has not been impeded in any way?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I can absolutely reassure the House that all depositors’ money with SVB UK is safe and secure as a result of the transaction. The noble Lord is right that many of SVB UK’s customers represented large parts of the tech sector in the UK. Part of the success of securing that sale means that they can continue with their business and with investing in innovative solutions to challenges such as net zero, confident that their banking services remain in place.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Baroness Penn Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 13th March 2023 Grand Committee

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lady Noakes in her amendment. As she has explained well, Clause 38 requires the FCA, the FOS and the FSCS to co-operate and to consult with each other in exercising their statutory functions. However, it is important that FOS decisions with wider implications do not diverge from FCA rules, or there may be unintended consequences, and predictability and consistency may be negatively affected.

As my noble friend just said, this does not mean that the FCA or the FOS should act without thinking very carefully about what they are doing. Her amendment takes account of that and would be likely to encourage real thought about the consequences of making a particular decision in any case. Besides, Parliament never intended the FOS to be a quasi-regulator. UK Finance has recommended that the FCA should be given a power to overrule a decision by the FOS where it believes that the decision could have wider and perhaps unforeseen implications. My noble friend’s amendment would deal effectively with this potential problem.

Of course, the granting of additional powers to the FCA strengthens further the case that the FCA must be properly accountable to Parliament, and I regret that I have not yet heard my noble friend the Minister acknowledge that, as drafted, the Bill does not provide adequate arrangements for this. I firmly believe that a properly resourced joint committee is how to achieve that.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Baroness Penn) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government agree that, where there are wider implications, it is critical that the bodies within the financial services regulatory framework, including the FCA and the FOS, co-operate effectively.

As my noble friend Lady Noakes noted, that is why Clause 38 of this Bill introduces a statutory duty for the FCA, the FOS and the Financial Services Compensation Scheme to co-operate on issues which have significant implications for each other or for the wider financial services market. Clause 38 also ensures that the FCA, FOS and FSCS put appropriate arrangements in place for stakeholders to provide representations on their compliance with this new duty to co-operate on matters with wider implications.

As my noble friend also noted, these organisations already co-operate on a voluntary basis through the existing wider implications framework. The voluntary framework was launched in January 2022 to promote effective co-operation on wider implication issues. Clause 38 will enhance that co-operation and ensure that these arrangements endure over time while retaining the operational independence of the bodies involved.

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[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Trenchard for his support; I was not expecting the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, to support my amendment, because she and I have discussed the FOS in the past.

There is a potential problem in the relationship between the FCA and the FOS with the introduction of the new consumer duty. I think that is particularly concerning people: we are going a little into the unknown. We know that if regulatory pressures get too difficult for firms, their natural response is, ultimately, to leave or severely curtail the elements of the market that they are prepared to operate in. We need look only at the availability of advised investment to see what can be the consequence of heavy-handed regulatory action. If the new consumer duty becomes a nightmare, with individual cases being settled on particular circumstances but then having to be read across because of the FCA handbook, which requires cases to then be followed by firms, we could end up with a very confused understanding of what the consumer duty involves. That was the main burden of my tabling the amendment, but we may just need to see what happens when the consumer duty operates in practice to see whether those harms genuinely emerge.

As for the second leg of my amendment, which should have been a separate amendment, I was very interested to hear what my noble friend said about the case having been made. What I am not quite clear about, which she may be able to clarify, is on what timescale she believes the Government will be looking at this, because not many financial services Bills come along to get things done in.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I will have to write to the Committee to clarify the timescale for the noble Baroness.

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

My Lords, I look forward to that letter with great anticipation. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, this group of amendments has a general direction which may be supported. It would be much better if the Government were to come forward with proposals in that general direction and improve the situation.

I, too, however, feel that there is some moral hazard. The extent to which victims are compensated draws attention from the fact that this is serious crime which, as I understand it, is growing exponentially. I hope that in looking after victims, which I am broadly in favour of, we massively increase our efforts to prevent fraud in the first place. I do not have a simple solution to that, but it is my understanding that the relationship between a preventive resource in the police and the banks is, compared to the general application to prevent crime, disproportionately low. More resource has to be put into combating this frightening industry. There is a sense of almost moral decay that allows this virulent industry to continue to grow. I hope that, while responding to the concerns of victims, there is also feedback to the Government as a whole that we must find a way to get on top of this very unpleasant crime.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I recognise the keen interest across this Committee in the provisions in the Bill to tackle financial crime and fraud more generally, and, in this group of amendments, on tackling APP scams specifically and the related work of the Payment Systems Regulator to introduce mandatory reimbursement. The noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, said that she hoped that the sense of the amendments could be taken forward, or that the Government could provide reassurance to noble Lords that it will. I hope to be able to do so.

Measures in the Bill not only enable the Payment Systems Regulator to act on APP reimbursement regardless of the method of payment used, but also have a specific requirement mandating, within a specific timeframe, that they are taken forward under Faster Payments. We have sought within the Bill both to provide further powers for the regulator and to specify that it needs to act within a certain timeframe on the form of payments, which currently represents the largest form of fraud, not only by volume—97% of payments by volume—but by value. The figures I have are that Faster Payments account for approximately 85% of the value. The noble Lord and noble Baroness also mentioned CHAPS. That is the next highest in value, but it is about 4%, so it is right that we prioritise action on Faster Payments first. That does not rule out further action on other forms of payment further down the line.

I appreciate that we often have a debate on what needs to be in a Bill versus powers that, in this case, we are giving to the regulators to make rules. We have also heard during this debate about fraud how dynamic that situation can be, so enabling the regulator to update its response to approaching these questions through its rules is the right approach in this situation.

None the less, a lot of detail of the Payments Systems Regulator’s approach is in the public domain, and I hope it would reassure the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, on a number of his amendments that the approach being taken is consistent with many of the recommendations made by his committee. Indeed, having its proposals out for consultation on how mandatory reimbursement should work has provided an opportunity for all interested parties to comment.

Turning to the specifics in the amendments and hopefully updating the Committee on work that the PSR is taking in relation to each, I begin with Amendments 202 and 207, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, on the scope of the requirement on the PSR to mandate reimbursement. As I have noted, under this legislation the PSR could act in relation to any designated payment system, but with a specify duty on Faster Payments which, as I said, accounts for 97% of scams by volume today. We expect the PSR to keep under review the case for action across other designated payment systems, in collaboration with the Bank of England and the FCA.

In relation to Amendment 204, on issues that the PSR should consider as part of its approach, I assure the Committee that the PSR has set out how it has considered these issues in its consultation. For example, as discussed, the PSR is proposing that the cost of liability is split equally between the sending and receiving banks, recognising that both parties have a responsibility in preventing fraud.

On Amendment 205 on the publication of data, the PSR is currently consulting on a measure to require payment service providers to report and publish fraud and reimbursement data. I was surprised to hear Green support for league tables. I did not know that they were supportive of them on schools, but in this case that data is important and the transparency we are talking about helps noble Lords keep track of how effective these provisions are once they are implemented.

Amendment 206 is on a duty to review. The PSR regularly reports on the discharge of its functions through its annual report and has committed in its consultation to a post-implementation review of its action on APP scams, to assess the overall impact of its measures for improving consumer outcomes. The Government will also monitor the impacts of the PSR’s action and consider the case for further action where necessary. While the Government recognise the intention behind the noble Lord’s amendments, we do not think it necessary or appropriate to further circumscribe the actions of the regulator in primary legislation at this stage, given the extensive consultation the PSR has undertaken on this matter and its responsibilities and expertise in this area as the independent regulator.

On Amendment 203, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, and spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, the Government’s intention, as already expressed in the legislation, is to ensure that more victims of APP scams across the Faster Payments system specifically, and wider payments systems in general, are reimbursed, and to enable the PSR to act in this area. The Government recognise that no one sets out to be defrauded and that APP scams are, by their very nature, convincing and sophisticated.

None the less, we also recognise that many banks take action to engage with their customers ahead of making a payment, and that questions of liability can be complex. As the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, set out, a blanket approach to mandatory reimbursement raises questions of moral hazard and the potential for APP reimbursement fraud itself to become an area of difficulty. This is a difficult balance to strike. While this amendment is well meaning, it will not help achieve effective resolution in these cases. We are confident that the PSR has the appropriate objectives, expertise and powers to develop proposals for APP scam reimbursement that both ensure strong protections for victims and incentivise banks to engage effectively with their customers to prevent fraud. In its consultation on its reimbursement approach, the PSR stated its intention to require firms sending payments over the Faster Payments system to fully reimburse all consumers who are victims of APP scams, with very limited exceptions. The PSR considers that this will ensure that victims are reimbursed in the vast majority of cases. In that regard, the PSR has already signalled its intention to set a high bar for customer liability—higher than currently applies within the existing code of voluntary reimbursement.

We do not believe that this amendment will improve outcomes for customers beyond the provisions already set out in the Bill, and it could impede the work of the regulator, which has already consulted on the proposals. I hope that noble Lords genuinely feel reassured by the level of detail in which the PSR and the Government have thought through these proposals, and acknowledge the ability to have a dynamic response in this area. I therefore hope the noble Lord can withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

Can the Minister comment on the Treasury Select Committee’s recommendation on the PSR, effectively subcontracting its responsibilities to Pay.UK?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I apologise to the noble Lord; I did have an answer for him on that. The Bill is clear that the Payment Systems Regulator has the duty to act on mandatory reimbursement. The PSR has the relevant powers and expertise, as well as the appropriate discretion, to determine the most effective approach in that area.

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All in all, I hope that the Government have heard what has been said and come forward with a solution. If not, we will have to consider whether we will support a modified amendment on Report.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have a lot of sympathy with noble Lords who feel that they or their families have been subject to unreasonable treatment due to their status as politically exposed persons, or PEPs. As noble Lords have mentioned, I have engaged with noble Lords to understand this issue and I am aware that the difficulties faced can range from seemingly disproportionate requests for information to accounts being blocked, leaving Peers and their family members at risk of being unable to effectively manage their financial affairs.

The Treasury and the FCA will continue to work to address this issue and to ensure that those subject to these rules are treated fairly and proportionately. Before discussing that work further, I will set out the importance of the PEPs regime to UK security and the fight against economic crime.

Enhanced due diligence by banks is a key component of the UK’s anti-money laundering and anti-corruption measures, and ensures that any suspicious activity is identified and reported to law enforcement. Given the potential for the positions of influence held by those subject to the PEPs regime to make them targets for serious and organised criminals and hostile state actors, law enforcement agencies have strongly favoured maintaining these requirements on domestic PEPs. The enhanced due diligence measures are a crucial part of the UK’s anti-money laundering regime and contribute to a coherent, systemwide approach to tackling economic crime, providing law enforcement with valuable and actionable intelligence to help protect the UK’s political system from hostile state actors, for instance.

However, the Government of course recognise that domestic PEPs often represent a lower risk than overseas PEPs. This is already explicit in FCA guidance, which states that domestic PEPs should be treated as lower risk by financial institutions unless other risk factors are present. The FCA remains committed to monitoring banks’ compliance with its guidance on PEPs, and will take action where it identifies systemic issues. The FCA did so last year, resulting in one financial institution apologising to all PEP customers after its failure to adhere to FCA guidance.

In last year’s review of the money laundering regulations, the Government committed to an assessment of the risk profile of domestic PEPs and made it clear that we would consider removing the requirement for mandatory enhanced due diligence if they were found to be sufficiently low risk. The Government’s assessment of the risk profile of domestic PEPs has concluded. As part of that work, they engaged with law enforcement and other operational partners to develop their under-standing of the risk posed by domestic PEPs. In light of that review, the Government consider that the existing requirements remain appropriate.

However, given the concerns raised, the Government will continue to work with the FCA to ensure that banks and other financial institutions appropriately and proportionately implement the guidance set out by the FCA regarding the treatment of domestic PEPs, that it is taken forward in a way that is proportionate to their individual risk and that adjustments are made to enhanced due diligence measures as necessary. I would like to reassure noble Lords that the Treasury continues to engage with the FCA on this issue and stress the importance of taking a proportionate, risk-based approach to the application of enhanced measures on domestic PEPs.

I turn to the specifics of the amendments. Amendment 215 from my noble friend Lord Moylan would remove those politically exposed persons who are tax residents from the regime entirely. As I have set out, including domestic PEPs in the regime is important because of the risks presented by their positions of influence. Such a proposal would weaken the UK’s protection from money laundering and corruption and leave us non-compliant with international standards. International standards for domestic PEPs, as my noble friend set out, are set by the Financial Action Task Force. They require countries to implement a legal framework that compels regulated firms to identify whether their customers are domestic PEPs and make an assessment of which due diligence measures to apply based on the risk presented.

Amendment 215 would remove the requirement for financial institutions to identify and treat those resident in the UK for tax purposes as PEPs, making the UK non-compliant with those international standards. The UK is a leading member of the Financial Action Task Force and was recognised in its mutual evaluation report in 2018 as having the most effective anti-money laundering regime of well over 100 countries assessed to date. The UK remains committed to ensuring that its anti-money laundering regime is compliant with these international standards. While I appreciate that, in drafting their amendments, noble Lords may have sought to remain compliant with those standards, I am afraid it is not possible to remove domestic PEPs from identification altogether and remain compliant.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

Why is it therefore possible to exclude councillors, as the guidance does, but not Peers?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

That is a question of who is classed as a domestic PEP, not of the need to have a regime in place to identify domestic PEPs and then look at what enhanced due diligence measures should be applied to them.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

Does the Minister accept that we could therefore exclude all Members of Parliament?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I do not think that would be consistent with the Financial Action Task Force guidance that is interpreted at a UK level.

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[Earl Attlee (Con)]

Further to the questions of the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, can the Minister point to any illegal activity on the part of a parliamentary PEP that has been detected as result of the money laundering regulations?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, to deal with the question of the risk assessment undertaken as part of this work, as I have already said, the Government have engaged closely with law enforcement and the intelligence community to inform our understanding of the risk in this area. It is a difficult area, and it is not particularly appropriate to go into detail on the contents of the risk assessment, given the sensitive nature of the information. As I also set out, the context is that there is potential for those in positions of influence to make domestic PEPs targets for influencing behaviour by serious and organised criminals and hostile state actors. The potential links between domestic PEPs and criminal activity vary, including abuse of political position for personal gain or links to overseas corruption.

I very much understand the desire by those directed by the regulation to hear more about that risk assessment. It was a question that I anticipated and to which I sought to get as full an answer as possible for the Committee. I am under constraints, but I shall none the less take away the requests from noble Lords to see whether there is any more I can do to provide more information on that point.

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)]

I follow up the inquiry of my noble friend Lord Attlee about statistics—whether parliamentarians have actually fallen foul—and take it one stage further. With regard to the particularly appalling way in which family members are implicated here, do we have statistics on how many family members of parliamentarians have fallen foul? Surely, they are implicated simply because they are related to someone who is classified as a PEP. We have mentioned human rights, but this provision cannot be fair or proper and should surely be removed.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

As I said, I shall take away the point about what further I can say about the work on the risk assessment. The focus has been on looking at risk, and my understanding is that, in considering that, the question of close associates or family members—I believe that is the terminology in the regulations—has also been considered.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

I am sorry about this, but the Minister will not be surprised, because we have had 10 years of this issue. There was a review last year, which she reported on in the House, which said that no change was needed, which is extraordinary. She referred to the case where we all got an apology, but that was only because we kept on standing up and asking for it, otherwise it would never have happened.

The important thing that I wanted to raise is that this somehow is going further than anti-money laundering—it is about general corruption. Some of us have been debating the National Security Bill, where it is being dealt with in another way. I do not think that the Minister has been following that Bill, but I can understand that she has not because she has been involved with this one. We now have the FIRS scheme, which will be set up when the Bill becomes an Act and which is about the other things—the approach to politicians by malign forces trying to corrupt us, or whatever. So can we take out corruption and that sort of thing, because the National Security Bill will deal with that? This is simply to be simply about anti-money laundering—in other words, dirty money.

A lot of what the Minister has said goes beyond that, and the fact that she cannot tell us means that the spooks—who tell us that they do not want it, by the way—want it for some other cause. That is not the purpose of the provisions on anti-money laundering; it is about dirty money. Perhaps the Minister could talk to the Home Office and Tom Tugendhat about how much is covered now on the approach to any of us as politicians by malign forces, because this is separate.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, although I have not been following the detail of that Bill, I am aware of the provisions in it. As part of looking at this question, one question asked is, in our broader ecosystem of the checks and balances that we have on our politicians and people defined as PEPs—the other requirements of disclosure that they are held to and the other tools that we have at our disposal—how they influence the risk assessment has been done. I reassure noble Lords that that question has been asked. I should also reassure noble Lords that I am seeing the Security Minister tomorrow to discuss economic crime, but also that issue. We are seeking wherever possible to ensure that there is join-up across government in our assessment of the risks and the tools available to deal with them, ensuring that where we have measures in place they remain proportionate. That is something that I continue to engage with, with the Security Minister and others across government.

I shall just try to answer the point on the Financial Action Task Force, the difference between domestic and foreign PEPs, and the requirements within that, as I understand it. I commit to following up in writing if it remains unclear or if anything I say is not correct. The requirement for automatic enhanced due diligence applies to foreign PEPs. However, within the FATF guidance on recommendations 12 and 22—I think that this is particularly around 12—there is still the need to take steps to identify whether someone is a domestic politically exposed person and then review the relevant risk factors. So they need to determine whether a customer or beneficial owner is a domestic PEP, then determine the risk of the business relationship in that context—and then, in low-risk cases, there are no further steps to determine whether a customer is a PEP. In other words, there is still a requirement to identify whether someone is a domestic PEP or not and to look at the risk around that.

Where there is a difference, in my understanding, from the Financial Action Task Force requirements, is that for foreign PEPs you need to apply automatic enhanced due diligence. Under the EU regulations, that also applied to domestic PEPs—and we therefore ensured that automatic enhanced due diligence applied to domestic as well as foreign PEPs was a system in our regulations. The review we did last year into all of our anti-money laundering regulations did not conclude that on this matter no further action was to be taken but that we needed to look at the risk profile and risks associated with domestic PEPs before determining whether those requirements of automatic enhanced due diligence remained appropriate, now that we had the ability to vary our money laundering regulations, having left the EU. So that was a further piece of work that needed to be done after the review was published last summer of our money laundering regulations overall. That further piece of work has been undertaken, and I have undertaken to write to noble Lords with further details if I can provide them on that risk assessment, but that concluded that it was appropriate to maintain automatic enhanced due diligence for domestic PEPs.

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

Did this review involve the FCA? When the FCA reissued its guidance in 2017 it was very clear about domestic PEPs being low risk, but it was constrained by the regulations, which said that you had to do enhanced due diligence. It was within that context. There seems to have been a shift between the FCA’s apparent position on the risk profile of UK PEPs and what my noble friend the Minister is now saying that she is being told by the security services, which will always try to find things that can go wrong. It is quite easy to construct a case that we are potentially capable of being corrupted by whoever and involved in money laundering, but they are not involved in the money laundering processes; the FCA is. I am getting a bit confused about how robust this risk assessment is in the context of money laundering.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I believe that it aimed to get relevant information from all those involved and take a holistic view. I appreciate and agree that we need to ensure that, when these measures are put in place, they are proportionate to the risk faced, so it is entirely right to interrogate that risk assessment. I also appreciate that it is a slightly frustrating process when the sensitive nature of some of these issues means that we cannot always go into all the details noble Lords want at this time. I have tried to explain the context as to why domestic PEPs are viewed as having sufficiently high risk so that enhanced due diligence should still apply. I have the FCA guidance in my pack but I will not go through it, but it is also true to say—this is another point that I checked—that although the risk is sufficient to have enhanced due diligence measures, it is lower for domestic PEPs than for foreign PEPs. That assessment still applies.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

The Minister is doing a very good job on a very sticky wicket. I am not surprised. Notwithstanding what she said about risk assessments and how that has to be, of necessity, a discretionary issue, the problem we are identifying, which the Government should address if they come forward with an amendment at Report, is the opaque nature of identifying these individuals and the offence against natural justice, because when people have accounts closed they are often not told why, who made the decision, on what basis and using what methodology. That is a serious issue and, after 10 years, one that the Government should address, if necessary by a government amendment.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I absolutely take that point. It comes back to the appropriate and proportionate enforcement of these regulations. I know that that is something noble Lords have raised previously, but we need to continue to work to ensure that it takes place.

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD)]

This goes back to when the Minister mentioned the FATF provisions. I thought she mentioned the risks in business relationships. All the stuff we get as PEPs is our personal stuff; it is nothing to do with business relationships. I have not been interrogated about anything to do with the London Stock Exchange, of which I am a non-executive director; I am interrogated about my father’s will and that kind of stuff.

Again, I am happy—in fact I would almost prefer—for the Minister to write the replies because it is hard to put together quoted bits and pieces, even when we get them back in Hansard. It seems that the whole risk assessment business is being set aside at the behest of the security agencies, which just like the idea that they have another captive load of people and that they may be able to track something with money—which I doubt, because these forms go to an outsourced place, they are filed, and nobody ever looks at them. There is no “know your client” going on. They may look at one or two, but I do not see how it adds up at all, even taking that security aspect into account, because if anybody was really a security threat, there are other ways of vetting.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

I am confused. I always encourage people to find out what is happening in this House by telling them to look at the speeches and follow Hansard, but now I am dreading anyone watching this because we have a government Minister implying that the security services at looking at us, particularly our private financial affairs, because we are high risk. Why? I do not think that is true. I want to denounce the notion that because you are in the House of Lords you are more likely to be doing something such as that.

I do not think the Minister can answer my second point, but I think we would all feel that it is a generalised accusation rather than specifically going after individuals who might be doing things that are wrong based on evidence, which nobody here objects to. Never mind the families; I have got to the point now where it is not just the families. I am sitting here feeling embarrassed, thinking, “Oh god, somebody is basically saying that the security forces think that we are all up to no good”. If the public find that out, it is said by a Minister and it is the general atmosphere, that is not good, is it? I usually put my speeches up on social media; I am not putting this one on. I do not want anyone to know about this conversation, because it will discredit the reputation of this House far more than anything else.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I have already set out for the Committee, and I repeat now, the reasons why UK domestic PEPs may be at greater risk of money laundering. For example, in the general sense, the positions of influence that we have can put us at greater risk. I have also tried to set out—and will set out in writing for noble Lords—the approach that we are taking to look at risk in this area. I will share any further details that I am able to.

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD)]

Following on from what has just been said, I would quite like the Minister to rephrase what she said: that we are at greater risk of money laundering. I cannot let that stand on the record.

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD)]

I can let stand that we might, in some instances, be at greater risk of being targeted for various things, and I hope that we also have a greater capacity for repelling such actions, given the experience of people in the House and having done the sorts of things that we have done throughout our lives. I am not prepared to accept that kind of statement with any acquiescence whatever on my behalf or, by the sound of it, on behalf of colleagues here.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I am very happy to clarify for the Committee and anyone who may be reading our proceedings, that we, due to our positions of influence, are at greater risk of being targeted by those who may seek to engage in money laundering.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, I say to the Committee that if someone tried to target me in any inappropriate way, I would report it to the appropriate authorities immediately.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I am sure that many of us in this Committee would do so—

[Noble Lords]

All!

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I am sure we all would. The noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, asked me to set out in writing the position of the Financial Action Task Force in terms of the requirements for foreign and domestic PEPs. I will also set out in writing the position on the risk assessment that has been undertaken, so that everyone has it and it is not just in the toing and froing of the exchanges in this Committee. I will clearly set out for the Committee the Government’s position on this.

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[Baroness Penn (Con)]

Others are involved in looking at the risks of money laundering in counterterrorist and proliferation financing, which I believe are subject to these regulations.

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

As far as financial institutions are concerned, all of those are dealt with by the FCA, not the security services or any other shadowy agencies that seem to be involved in this latest risk assessment, so I am struggling to see what wider issues could possibly have been taken into account.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The Government believe that the decision about the scope of the money laundering regulations is best taken by, and should remain with, the Government, rather than being delegated to the FCA.

I turn to Amendment 224 from the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish Town. This would require the FCA to consult with consumers with regard to its functions relating to PEPs. In the discussion—

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

The noble Baroness does not need to respond on this; it was a placeholder.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

Okay—I was going to talk about the engagement that we have conducted so far and will continue.

My noble friend Lord Trenchard touched on my noble friend Lord Forsyth’s Amendment 234, but I am not sure whether anyone spoke to it specifically. In my response, I addressed the Committee’s desire to focus its attention on the statutory changes, and I am not sure we had a detailed discussion on the other proposals put forward here.

Noble Lords have made their position on the issue very clear. I hope that, to some extent, they have also heard the rationale for the Government’s approach and would agree with the desire to be in line with international standards in any action that we take in this area. As the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, said at the start of his remarks, we should bear in mind the context of the Government’s efforts, very much supported by this House—we are often pushed to go further by this House—in tackling issues of economic crime, which include money laundering. We have to recognise that London and the UK being such a centre for financial services, and the great benefits that that brings, also brings greater risks. It is right that we make sure that we have a regime that manages those risks as effectively as possible.

I shall write to noble Lords on the matters that I have mentioned, and any other matters in looking at this debate again, on which I can provide further clarity. I am sure that I will engage with noble Lords further on this issue ahead of Report.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

Would the Minister also engage with the banks and financial institutions to see whether they can improve their performance in being reasonable?

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[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right to say that. This Government are committed to do that with the regulator. I understand this Committee’s desire to look at legislative change, but I have also heard from the Committee that the guidance is clear on the lower risks of PEPs, and the challenge really lies in the effective implementation of that guidance. We should not take our eye off that work. It is something that the Government are absolutely committed to doing.

I know that noble Lords have raised the challenges of engaging with the FOS on this issue, but I remind them of that route. I have also said to noble Lords, as the FCA has said, that in the list of contacts that we have provided to parliamentarians with issues with their status as politically exposed persons, the FCA will monitor any of those points of contact in terms of complaints to look more systematically at whether there are issues in individual institutions so that further action can be taken on that basis. The Treasury will continue to engage with the FCA on how we can ensure that that takes place.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

I think that we have already mentioned why the FOS is so inappropriate. To expect a judge to take a complaint to the FOS is frankly out of order. It is no way for this issue to be raised. It is a very small number—but it is not appropriate to ask very senior judiciary to go via FOS, if their children are being affected. That is really not the right way forward.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I appreciate that it will not be the right route of recourse in many circumstances, but I do not agree that it is never the right form of recourse for people. It is important for people to know that that route is there. For particular cases, it may be appropriate. The noble Baroness has set out why, in many other cases, that is not the form of recourse that people want, which is why we have also set out other points of contact and ways in which to try to resolve these issues, which also act as a data point for the FCA as the regulator to look at issues in particular banks or institutions that are not applying the guidance appropriately.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, we have had a very valuable debate. I am grateful to all noble Lords who spoke in it and, if I do not thank them individually, I hope that they will forgive me, given the length of the debate so far. It is unusual, at the end of such a long debate, to be able to summarise the arguments made in one or two sentences—but I can, because everybody, in effect, said the same thing. That is that we want to see change, and the majority of us want to see legislative change.

Having said that I am not going to refer to individuals, there are two speeches to which I will briefly refer, because they were important. The first was the winding-up speech from the Labour Party Front Bench by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe. He spoke very briefly, but his words were very pregnant and important as we approach Report.

The second, which I will deal with at greater length, was the speech made by the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles of Berkhamsted, who acutely put her finger on a key issue that must be addressed if we are to achieve the legislative change that we want to see. That is about the definition that we choose. When I spoke earlier, I said that there must be a way in which to distinguish satisfactorily between domestic and foreign. In doing this, I will not use the term “non-discriminatory”, because that has legal implications, but we want to do it in a way that is fair and is seen to be fair by everybody who might be affected. At least a couple of suggestions have been made, and they both have merits. This is something to which we need to return as we approach Report, to make sure that we are comfortable with it—but I thought that the noble Baroness put her finger on that very acutely.

Normally, at this stage in a speech of reply, I would turn to a lengthy and careful analysis of the remarks made by the Minister, but she has been subject to a lengthy and careful analysis by practically everybody else in the course of her winding-up speech. So perhaps I will spare her that, and congratulate and thank her for taking, with such good grace, the questions and points that were put to her.

However, I shall refer to two points, the first being the security services. Frankly, I have never come across a case where the police or security services have given up a right to scrutiny that they already have. There is always some excuse for why it is necessary. I find that unconvincing—and the reasons are not, per se, on the grounds that it is the security services, but because of the arguments made here. It is astonishing that there is a special list of people in scope of suspicion of money laundering and terrorism, who happen to be the list in Regulation 35(14), when all of us could supply—even a five year-old could supply—a list of people much more likely to be in scope, who are not being subject to the same scrutiny.

On my second point, I do not think that I am in the wrong here, and suspect that my noble friend has not quite got it right, but am happy to be corrected. What are our international obligations to the FATF, insofar as we have legal obligations to it in a legal sense, given that it is not a legal body?

From this little iPad, I read out and referred very carefully to the current version of recommendation 12. It quite clearly says “foreign”; it places no obligation on the parties to the agreement to do anything about domestic PEPs. Clearly—this is where there may be a degree of confusion—in deciding who is a foreign PEP, you have to make a decision, if you like, that they are not a domestic PEP. Naturally, a sift is therefore required to get to the point of identifying that this is a foreign PEP, but I suspect that too much has been built on that, and there is some suggestion that that sift—are they foreign or are they domestic?—involves some obligation to scrutinise them. However, it simply is not there, so I referred in the course of my noble friend’s speech to the interpretative notes, and there is an interpretative note to recommendation 12, but it deals entirely with life assurance policies.

I think I also heard my noble friend say that recommendation 22 was relevant. That may have been a mishearing on my part but, looking at recommendation 22, it deals almost entirely with casinos, real estate managers and trusts. I do not know why they are all in the same recommendation, but there we are.

Theatre Tax Relief

Baroness Penn Excerpts

Thursday 9th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have to maintain Theatre Tax Relief at the higher rate of 45 per cent/50 per cent for the next three years; and what assessment they have made on the impact of that relief in facilitating growth and investment in the sector.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Baroness Penn) (Con)]

My Lords, at the Autumn Budget 2021, the Government temporarily increased the headline rates of theatre tax relief to 45% and 50% in recognition of the impact of the Covid-19 pandemic on the sector. The Government acknowledge the concerns of the industry about the upcoming taper of the rates in April, and we will keep this matter under review.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, when I tabled this Question, I hoped that I would be helping the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, in his annual debate with the Treasury over tax levels. The theatre tax sector generates nearly £2 billion extra value added to local economies. Does the Minister agree that reducing theatre tax relief at this stage would be premature and harm the sector’s recovery? What other forms of support does she envisage providing, given that audiences to theatres have recovered to only 73% of pre-Covid levels?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I should remind noble Lords that the level of tax relief will remain enhanced from April at an elevated rate of 30% or 35%. I know that my noble friend Lord Parkinson and the Secretary of State have been engaging with the sector carefully to hear about its ongoing challenges and, as the noble Lord has said, they have fed that back across Whitehall and to the Treasury.

[Lord Vaizey of Didcot (Con)]

My Lords, the theatre tax relief has been a resounding success, and the higher rate has resulted in one US producer increasing their investment in UK theatre by 250%. We all have a duty to make my noble friend Lord Parkinson as happy as possible, so will the Minister acknowledge that administering the tax relief costs a great deal of money? Will she either provide a special grant to the British Film Institute, which administers the film, TV and audio-visual tax credit, or introduce a levy on the film tax credit—a very small levy—to cover the institute’s significantly increased cost in administering it so well? She will make our noble friend extremely happy if she agrees to that.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, there are two different tax credit systems, as I understand it: one for film and audio-visual and the other for theatres. Both have huge value to the sector and also to the sector’s contribution to our economy. We are committed to ensuring that they continue to be able to contribute in that way. We want to make the system as simple to operate as possible, and all suggestions for doing that are gratefully received.

[Baroness Bull (CB)]

My Lords, the creative future report from the Communications and Digital Committee of your Lordships’ House, on which I sat until recently, called on the Government to benchmark the UK’s creative industry tax-relief schemes against those of other countries that are now offering similar schemes but with more attractive rates. This includes a new theatre production tax credit from New York, which is a direct competitor. What assessment have the Government made of the threat that this kind of international competition presents to the UK’s continued pre-eminence in the creative industries?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right that we should think about our international competitiveness. Tax reliefs for the cultural sector are not actually that common, but she has identified one in New York. We have looked at our scheme against that and, overall, our scheme is more generous than the New York one. We are confident that it provides great support for our theatres, not just within the UK but as international competitors as well.

[Lord Razzall (LD)]

My Lords, given that the Minister has mentioned it, may I extend the Question to cover the Government’s attempt to modify HETV tax relief for all audio-visual productions? I appreciate that this is out for consultation, but does she agree that it would be a mistake to increase the minimum expenditure threshold for HETV relief to above the current £1 million per hour, as to do so would threaten the production of many low-budget domestic British dramas, comedies and documentaries? Does she acknowledge that, on this basis, even “Happy Valley” might never have been made? Will she either confirm that the Government have no intention of making this change or, if they are proposing to do so, agree to have an impact assessment before the decision is made?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, as the noble Lord has noted, that proposal is out for consultation. As part of a package of reforms, we are looking at reviewing the £1 million per hour minimum expenditure threshold and considering whether it should be increased to reflect current production costs. However, I assure the noble Lord that, in considering these different reforms, the Government remain committed to ensuring that the final package of reforms best serves the need of our audio-visual industry.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My noble friend Lord Bassam referred in his question to changes in audience behaviour since the pandemic, which has had a very serious impact on the ability of performing arts in particular to plan confidently. Audiences appear to respond to strong, novel programming, which is where the highest initial risk tends to lie. Has the Treasury made any assessment of the potential loss to the Treasury if performing arts organisations and others start to decrease their investment, thereby damaging the potential they have to draw audiences, which would then impact Treasury revenue?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, the points that the noble Baroness makes are entirely those that we would want to consider in looking at the issue. She is absolutely right about the value and the costs when it comes to the production of these shows, which is why the tax relief is focused there. She is also right that they can bring huge economic benefit, including through exports, attracting visitors to the UK and productions going on the road. Those are the kinds of things that the DCMS and the Treasury will consider when looking at the tax relief.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, there are concerns similar to those of the theatres in the visual arts sector concerning the museums and galleries exhibition tax relief. The Treasury and the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, will be aware of this, having received the letter signed by many museums’ and galleries’ organisations which asks for that relief to be extended. It has been not just helpful, but vital to the sector, not only for the larger museums, but smaller galleries and emerging artists outside London. If the Government want to see this sector grow across the whole country, they should seriously consider maintaining this tax relief, and at the current level.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The noble Lord is right that the theatre tax relief is not the only cultural tax relief that we have. The Covid support that was put in place to extend the levels of that relief cover those areas as well. I know that my noble friend Lord Parkinson has been listening very carefully to the representations made by that sector and passing them on to the Treasury.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend will be aware of the value in present circumstances of tax measures that can boost growth and enhance tax receipts. In that respect, will she and her Treasury colleagues look positively at representations from the video games industry on the extension of the video games tax relief, which is estimated to enhance growth to the extent that tax receipts would rise by more than £200 million a year?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, the Government keep all taxes and tax reliefs under review. My noble friend is right about the value that the video games industry brings to the UK. The Chancellor has identified our creative industries as a key driver to our future growth, which is what we have heard in the range of different questions from noble Lords today.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, the creative industries are one of the most successful industries in the UK. Is there not a lesson in that the more support the Government give them, the more successful they are? Do we need a cross-party approach to this, so that all departments contribute in the way that they do, for example, in Ireland?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I absolutely agree with the noble Lord about the contribution made by the creative industries to our economy and society. That is why the Government put such world-leading support into them. I am sure that we welcome the cross-party approach of Labour supporting the Government in this area.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, is not my noble friend much encouraged by the great consensus that we have seen this morning that cutting taxes results in increased investment and growth?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I am greatly encouraged by the support that this House has offered to the creative industries sector. When we look at tax rates, we need to look at individual sectors and the individual response that those sectors have. I can reassure my noble friend that we are committed to having a competitive tax regime that stimulates growth and attracts businesses to the UK.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, it is the case that theatres and all artistic venues need artists. One group that has some support from taxpayers is the BBC. Will the Minister condemn the decision by the BBC to cut the BBC Singers, which is such a tragedy for the arts world? I would like to support them here, just before the end.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I believe that is one for the BBC to comment on, rather than me.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Baroness Penn Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 7th March 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Meacher (CB)]

Amendment 168 is the lead amendment; that is absolutely right. I think we had got on to Amendment 199. Is that correct, Minister? Are you happy with that?

[The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Baroness Penn) (Con)]

Noble Lords can speak to any amendment in the group once the lead amendment has been put, I believe.

[Baroness Meacher (CB)]

One or two people had talked to Amendment 199 and I was just about to do the same. Is that okay?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, this is a cross-party group on the environment. It has no amendments led by Labour, but I have signed Amendment 199 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Randall, on outlawing someone carrying out a regulated commercial activity that directly or indirectly supports deforestation risk commodities, unless relevant local laws are complied with.

I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Randall, and thank Global Witness for its support on this amendment. My party is committed to securing the highest sustained growth in the G7. That means modernising our economy and financial regulation. We cannot deforest our way to sustainable growth nor a robust financial system.

Leaders across the City of London, along with BNP Paribas, Legal & General, Unilever and Tesco, are supportive of the measure proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Randall. Sir Ian Cheshire, former chair of Barclays and head of the Global Resource Initiative task force, has written to the Minister to remind the Government that the task force concluded its work in May 2022 by reiterating the need for new legislation to provide due diligence obligations for financial institutions equivalent to those that will be in place on supply chain companies under the Environment Act 2021. The Minister has previously argued that enhanced risk reporting eliminates the need for this amendment but the GRI task force has already rejected that argument. Sir Ian’s letter put this issue to bed when he wrote that risk reporting mechanisms, such as the task force on nature-related financial disclosure and voluntary net-zero pledges, are insufficient to prevent deforestation financing.

This expert backing and the desire of the British public to eliminate the scourge of deforestation are key reasons why this amendment has such considerable cross-party support. It would allow us to be global rule-makers, not rule-takers, when it comes to our financial system; I urge the Minister to take it seriously. Beyond Amendment 199, this group contains a lot of common-sense amendments that highlight the expertise of this Committee.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome this chance to continue this Committee’s important debate on amendments concerning green finance. As I stated in a previous Committee session, the Government are committed to fostering sustainable finance in the UK and will shortly publish an updated green finance strategy to that effect.

I will speak first to Amendment 168 from the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington. It is of course correct that all models have their limitations in depicting the real world but the Bank of England’s models have considered the views of experts in the field; they therefore do not need to be directed to do so. The scenarios used in the climate biennial exploratory scenario, or CBES, were formed by the Network for Greening the Financial System, an international network of central banks in which the Bank of England plays a prominent role. The scenarios have been produced in partnership with leading climate scientists, leveraging climate-economy models that have been widely used to inform policymakers—not to mention being used by and continuing to be used by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. These scenarios are updated continually by the Network for Greening the Financial System, which also ran a public survey welcoming feedback on its most recent iteration of climate scenarios.

It is also not the case that CBES is the PRA’s only tool to manage climate risk. It is actively using its position as a supervisor to ensure that firms are not materially undercapitalised for climate risks, setting out its expectations in its supervisory statement published in 2019. Furthermore, the PRA is an active member of two of the leading international standard setters: the Basel Committee on Banking Supervision and the International Association of Insurance Supervisors. The Bank is actively participating in both forums to ensure that the regulatory frameworks for the banking and insurance sectors address potential gaps in the management of climate-related financial risks. This work will flow through to our domestic framework and at the same time ensure international co-operation on what is fundamentally a global issue.

I now turn to Amendment 199 in the name of my noble friend Lord Randall of Uxbridge, which is supported by other noble Lords in this Committee. The Government agree that the financing of illegal deforestation is a serious global issue that must be tackled. However, this amendment would involve implementing a new and untested regulation that would impose a broad supply chain rule on all regulated financial services firms. It would currently be very difficult, time-consuming and expensive for UK financial services firms to ascertain whether firms or products that they invest in are exposed to forest risk commodities in compliance with local laws.

In introducing this amendment, the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, referred to the provisions in the Environment Act 2021. These provisions will apply to the supply chains of large UK corporates. However, UK-based banks and fund managers engage in lending and investment activities with companies in jurisdictions across the globe, not just commercial activity in the UK. There are currently no consistent, equivalent disclosure requirements to those that will be set out under the Environment Act 2021 in jurisdictions across the globe. Given that, capturing the activity of all of their customers and supply chains would not be as simple as adding an extra stage of disclosure to the regime set out in the Environment Act 2021, as had been suggested. However, I assure noble Lords that the Government are committed to addressing this issue and will work with the financial services sector and those with expertise in tackling deforestation to consider how we can make further progress.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

Before the Minister moves on to another amendment, I put a question to her on Amendment 199 on deforestation. I hope she is coming to answer it.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

Not just yet. Was it about the letter?

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

The question was about the regulations under Section 17 of the Environment Act 2021 that are supposed to be forthcoming. I asked the Minister when she thought they might be ready.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I will have to get back to the Committee on that point. I had picked up the noble Baroness’s other point, which was also referenced by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, on the letter from Sir Ian Cheshire on this issue. I looked closely at his report and the recommendations in it. I am happy to place a copy of that letter and my response to it in the Library so that all noble Lords have access to them.

I was going to add something about the importance, in seeking to address this issue, of co-ordinating action internationally. This is necessary to reduce the financing of illegal deforestation and not simply drive it into other jurisdictions.

The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, referenced the work by Sir Ian Cheshire’s task force and its references to the Taskforce on Nature-related Financial Disclosures, the TNFD. The Government accept that that will not solve this problem on its own but it is important to recognise it as an important building block in creating an international solution. As I have pointed out, other jurisdictions do not have disclosure regimes. The TNFD is an attempt to create a global standard on nature-related disclosures that could be an ingredient in making progress in this area. The UK is the largest financial backer of the TNFD. We support its work to develop a global framework for reporting on nature-related impacts, dependencies and risks, within which deforestation is being considered. Once the task force launches its final recommendations in September 2023, the Government will consider bringing these standards into the UK disclosure framework.

Finally, on deforestation, in response to Sir Ian and the noble Lords who raised it today, as I set out, we are looking at what we can do further in this area. If noble Lords would like to meet to take those discussions forward, I would be very happy to do that.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

Before the Minister moves on, could I reiterate the strength of feeling across the Committee on deforestation? It is not just about the 12% of global carbon dioxide that is released by burning and cutting down forests; it is also about the destruction of the carbon sink. It is a double whammy. This is an issue that we can and must solve. We have a report by the Government’s own appointed head of the GRI, Sir Ian Cheshire, who clearly lays out how we move forward on this. I wonder why the Government will not accept the findings of their own reports.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I say to the noble Baroness that I absolutely agree. I appreciate the point that the issues concerning deforestation are about not just nature and biodiversity but our ability to tackle climate change. That is why we are such strong supporters of the TNFD’s work, for example. She mentioned Sir Ian Cheshire’s report. I said to the Committee that I have read that report and looked at it very carefully. I do not think that we are in disagreement in wanting to find solutions to this problem. Sir Ian’s report also sets out that work needs to be done to ensure that the solutions that we identify are effective. For example, he refers to ongoing work in other jurisdictions such as the EU and the US on disclosures that would be building blocks towards making the progress that we all want to make. The Government do want to make further progress on this issue and I understand the strength of feeling, so I commit to this Committee to take those discussions further and see where we can build consensus on it.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

I thank the Minister. On behalf of the noble Lord, Lord Randall, I accept the meeting. I know that he cannot be with us today, sadly. The final point that I leave with the Minister is that Sir Ian Cheshire was very clear in his letter about why he thought the UK should be acting. It is because, as a financial sector, we really matter. We may have 1% of the global emissions footprint but, in terms of the deforestation footprint and the money that passes through London, it is substantial.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The Government understand and agree with those points. That is why we are also seeking to find a way forward on this work and have driven considerable work at a global level to try to tackle deforestation. I hope noble Lords can take some heart from our commitment on that.

On Amendment 232, also from the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan, my noble friend Lord Naseby will be pleased to hear that NS&I’s retail green savings bonds, which I think have been available for a couple of years, are integral to the continued successful delivery of our green finance programme. We clearly have more work to do in promoting them, so the NS&I will continue to promote them and encourage retail investors to help finance the fight against climate change and other environmental challenges.

The Government committed to publishing a biennial impact report by September 2023, which will detail the environmental impacts and social co-benefits of the green financing programme’s spending. This will include available reporting on greenhouse gas emission reductions of projects financed by the green savings bonds and green gilts. The upcoming impact report will complement the programme’s first allocation report, published in September 2022. These annual allocation reports detail how funds raised from sales of green gilts and green savings bonds contribute to different green priorities such as clean transport and renewable energy.

Amendment 232 proposes publishing an assessment of the scope for future green financing. Decisions on future green financing ambitions are based on eligible green spending commitments and will be taken each financial year as part of wider decisions for the Treasury’s budget. Financing decisions are also influenced by gilt and retail savings market conditions and consultations with investors. Reporting on the future scope of green financing in advance, rather than at the beginning of each financial year, could create the risk that future spending requirements and conditions in the gilt and retail savings market are disregarded. That would make the successful delivery of the green financing programme more challenging.

I turn to Amendments 233, 235 and 236 from the noble Baronesses, Lady Wheatcroft and Lady Hayman, which concern sustainability disclosure requirements, green taxonomy and transition plans. Sustainability disclosure requirements—SDR—are designed to provide an effective and co-ordinated reporting framework for sustainability information. This is already being taken forward at pace. The FCA recently consulted on new sustainability-related disclosure requirements for all regulated firms and more detailed rules for asset managers and asset owners.

The Government’s 2021 road map made it clear that disclosure of transition plans will be a part of SDR. The Government launched the independent Transition Plan Taskforce in April 2022 to develop a gold standard for transition plans. The task force has since made huge progress, having just consulted on its recommendations, framework and guidance, with the final framework and guidance to be published later this year, alongside additional sectoral guidance.

The FCA has already implemented the guidance from the Taskforce on Climate-Related Financial Disclosures for transition plans for asset managers and asset owners, on a “comply or explain” basis. It is continuing to work closely with the Transition Plan Taskforce to develop and implement its recommendations.

As I reaffirmed to noble Lords in a previous debate, the Government are committed to implementing a green taxonomy as part of their sustainable finance agenda and, as I set out in my Written Ministerial Statement to the House on 14 December 2022, the Government will provide an update as part of the green finance strategy. We are clear that the value of a taxonomy rests on its credibility as a practical and useful tool for investors, companies, consumers and regulators in supporting access to sustainable finance.

Noble Lords have only to look at the implementation challenges the EU is facing, including on data availability and reporting, coherence with regulatory frameworks, and international interoperability, to see that this is a complex exercise. We have been clear in the UK that, with the support of our Green Technical Advisory Group and with public consultation, we will take the time to get the taxonomy right to ensure that it is usable and effective.

On Amendments 201 and 237, the Government and regulators are taking steps to improve the UK’s regulatory framework to support more effective stewardship. We have already discussed in Committee the Financial Reporting Council’s world-leading Stewardship Code 2020. This asks trustees and managers to disclose how they have considered environmental and social factors, including climate change, in their investments. The Department for Work and Pensions’ recent stewardship guidance for pension scheme trustees came into effect last October.

In addition to these existing initiatives, the DWP, along with the FCA, the Pensions Regulator and the Financial Reporting Council, has already committed to a review later this year of the regulatory framework for effective investment stewardship, to ensure that it is consistent across market participants and financial products. I recognise that this is a complex issue and recognise the concerns raised by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, about the specific framing of the amendments. This is an issue that would warrant further discussion before Report.

On Amendment 241A, tabled by my noble friend Lady Altmann, UK pensions have been at the forefront of tackling climate risk and will undoubtedly continue to play a crucial role. The Government are working hard to drive consolidation among pension schemes so that they deliver increased scale, better value for money and improved access to investments such as green infrastructure. As part of this drive, the DWP recently published a consultation on a value for money framework for defined contribution pension schemes. Furthermore, the pooling of Local Government Pension Scheme assets, from the 86 funds into eight asset pools, has already led to £380 million in net savings to March 2022; these are projected to exceed £1 billion by March 2025.

We are also working hard to lower the barriers for individual pension schemes to invest in green. The DWP is reforming the treatment of performance-based management fees to enable individual pension schemes to invest more easily in assets such as green infrastructure.

Finally, when it comes to the noble Baroness’s amendment, we are aligned in wanting to see more of this pool of capital able to be directed in the way we have discussed in this Committee. It is important that we lower barriers to such projects and solutions. We do not see the benefit in creating a distinct, lighter-touch regulatory regime to support pooled investments in green projects. There may be risks in reducing regulatory oversight in this way.

The UK’s world-leading regulatory standards are important in providing market participants with the confidence to invest and we should be cautious about changes that could undermine that confidence. I say to my noble friend Lady Altmann and the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman and Lady Drake, that we want to think about how we can make progress in this area. While the specific amendments suggested might not be the right way, we should continue to put our thinking caps on when it comes to how we can guide progress in this area.

With that, I hope that, for now, the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, is able to withdraw her amendment and that other noble Lords will not press their amendments when they are reached.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the Minister’s reply to this varied group of amendments covering a range of issues that fundamentally speak to the need for the financial sector to take a more serious look at how it can help prevent the exacerbation of environmental challenges, including climate change, and invest in solutions at scale.

I was encouraged to hear that the Government are about to produce their green finance strategy. I wonder whether it might have been a good idea to have done that before the Bill, as then we might have had—

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

We produced our green finance strategy in 2019 and we provided a green financing road map in 2021. I very much hope that before we reach the end of the Bill noble Lords will have sight of the refreshed green finance strategy.

[Baroness Worthington (CB)]

That is great, but my point still stands. It would have been good to have had the refresh before the legislation so that we could have incorporated any findings into the Bill.

On my amendment on the assessment of risk in relation to capital requirements, it is not the case that everything is fine in the world of climate modelling. It really is not. If you spend time with climate scientists who are empirical scientists out in the field witnessing the impact of climate on the natural world, they will tell you that the models are not in line with what they are witnessing. That tells you that we have not got a handle on the speed and pace of change in the physical world thanks to decades of unmitigated emissions of greenhouse gases and the never-ceasing increase in concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.

The noble Lords, Lord Lilley and Lord Naseby, may well say that it is fine and that we are just going to look at demand. We have been doing that for about 30 years. It has not made a jot of difference. The reason for that is that we have an economic system based on an incumbent power that is very adept at keeping demand for its product healthy and at finding new sources of demand for its product, so we absolutely need to cut with both sides of the scissors. We need constraints on demand and constraints on supply; otherwise, we will carry on with this merry dance and the emissions in the atmosphere, which are what matters, will continue to rise.

I believe that the finance sector is not the place to solve this. We need political will across all member states to pass the legislation necessary to drive capital into solutions and to stave off the continued licensing of extraction. That will take time, but it needs to be done.

In the meantime, if we walk into believing that the finance sector has got this—“Don’t worry; the models are all fine”—we will be making a grave error. These models are not sufficient; they do not take a whole host of measures into account. The noble Lord, Lord Stern, is not here, but he is an expert in these matters and he will tell you how flawed these models are. How can they be sufficient when many of them conclude that a global increase of around 3 degrees will take roughly 5%, 10% or 15% from GDP? That is ludicrous. Do not forget that an average global increase of 3 degrees means warming at the poles at three times that rate and hugely different regional impacts. That is not a safe place to be.

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[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, this is a key group for the Labour Party politically; it contains four of our amendments. Amendment 180 would require His Majesty’s Treasury and the FCA to publish a review of the need for

“access to essential in-person banking services”

and to ensure

“a minimum level of access”

to them.

Amendment 181 would require HMT to

“publish a policy statement setting out its policies in relation to the provision of essential in-person banking services, including … support for online banking, and maximum distances people can expect to travel to access services.”

I would be interested to know the Minister’s view on the reasonable distance for an elderly or disabled customer to have to travel to speak to someone from their bank.

Amendment 182 is perhaps the most important. It would compel HMT to

“guarantee a minimum level of access to free of charge cash access”.

Amendment 184 would require the FCA to

“monitor and report on levels of cash acceptance across the UK.”

I set out the crucial importance of free access to cash at Second Reading so I will not do so at length a second time; well, that is what it says here. Nobody has more interest in being speedy than me, or perhaps the Minister, because we have to be here for every minute of this Committee. We are almost in our 27th hour but this group is different from anything else that we have discussed. The rest of it—I cannot think of a polite way of putting it—is about activity that takes place for people like us. Quite a number of people work in the finance industry; we are looking at the nuances of it and how politicians should be involved.

However, the issue of cash is about our society. It is about the poorest and least competent people in our society. Technology has been a substantial disruptor. It is a disruptor that particularly applies to finance. It has allowed financial transactions to become extraordinarily efficient and has created a whole new customer base of people who are comfortable with technology. They have access to a whole new marketplace. We know that the dynamics of that have probably been benign for society.

However, the other problem is that it has created a divide in our society. I ran an organisation that used to have a lot of cash; I am all too familiar with the tremendous impact of approaching a cashless society. In all the knowledge in the world, the last bits are the most expensive bits. Yes, the cost of transactions goes up and so on and so forth, but we cannot afford to create the divide in our society that is emerging. We must support all parts of our society seriously. We must recognise that, in their lives, people sometimes need all banking services. We must recognise that some people simply cannot envisage how to budget without physically seeing it in separate pots. It is clearly a natural reaction if you are running out of money. You can see it there and have confidence because you know that, if you go into the grey world of accounts, banks, overdrafts, loans and things like that, all sorts of horrible things happen. For that group in society—it is probably 10% of our society so it is a substantial number of people—we must find a way of maintaining the public service. We must achieve a minimum service.

The noble Lord, Lord Blackwell, said what all providers of service say: if you are not ultra-efficient, you load the inefficiency costs on to other customers. It so happens that being ultra-efficient does not do much harm to your profit line either. Big businesses such as banks pursue the maximisation of shareholder value. It is in the law. They are supposed to do it, for Christ’s sake. We should not be surprised when they do but I rarely see them turning into charities. We have got to find ways. We do not have to keep all the branches open; even I can work that out. We have to be much more inventive in how we service this need, which is still large, but the way we must do that is by creating duties on the purveyors of financial services as well as rights and constraints.

It is proper for the law to create duties to look after the poorer members of our society. That is why so many people have said that it is important for a variety of needs—resilience and so on—that we maintain it. The banks must play their part. They have enjoyed massive exploitation—I do not use that in a pejorative sense—of information technology, probably more so than any other section of our society. They must recognise that there has to be a cross-subsidy in this situation because we must restore financial equity to all our society.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, as we have heard in this debate, the nature of banking is changing. In 2021, 72% of people banked online, and 57% on their mobile phones. Meanwhile, 85% of payments were made without cash, up from 45% a decade earlier, and 86% of UK adults used contactless payments.

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

Were 85% of the number of payments made without cash, or was it 85% of the value of payments?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I will check for the noble Lord because I do not have that level of detail in my notes. They say that “85% of payments” were made without cash, not “the value of payments”, but I should double-check to clarify for him.

In the light of these innovations in the way that we bank, the Government recognise that it is incredibly important that people are not left behind—we have heard that in today’s debate. Many people still rely on physical services: in particular, millions of people still rely on cash and need access to withdrawal and deposit services.

Working with industry, the Government are already undertaking positive action to support cash access in this context. For example, existing initiatives subsidise free-to-use ATMs in remote and deprived areas. Following changes in the Financial Services Act 2021, there is a new ability to have cashback without purchase services, enabling withdrawals to the penny that people request. Communities can ask LINK to assess whether additional cash services are needed, with several major banks and building societies funding new shared services. As a result of that initiative, over 70 communities are due to get new cash deposit facilities.

In that context, it is important not to underestimate the significance of the provisions contained in the Bill. It is the first time, in UK law, that we are protecting people’s ability to access cash. The Bill provides the FCA, as the independent regulator, with the responsibility and necessary powers to ensure reasonable provision of withdrawal and deposit services.

In evidence to Parliament, the regulator said that it anticipates taking account of reasonable access to free cash services for personal customers—subject to due process, which includes a requirement to consult on its rules. In using its powers, the FCA will utilise the wealth of data that it has collected, including on access at the regional level, and it must have regard to local deficiencies in cash access services and the Government’s policy statement.

The noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, asked about the policy statement. It is currently being developed, and we expect it to be published after the Bill completes its passage. It is important that it takes into account the latest available data and evidence ahead of its publication.

I have clarification for the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, on the statistic that I used, so I shall not need to write. I can confirm that 85% of the number, not the value, of payments were made without cash.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

While we are getting clarifications in flight, may I ask my noble friend the Minister about the 86% of people using contactless? Are 86% of people using contactless all the time or are they making one payment a year? If someone from the Box is able to answer that in flight, that would be helpful.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

That request has been noted. Reading the statistic in my notes, I would say that 86% of adults have used contactless payments, rather than it being a comment on how much they use them as part of their payment mix. If I am wrong, I hope that the people supporting me will tell me.

I talked about the policy statement and the significance of the measure that we are taking in the Bill. We have heard from the Committee that not everyone agrees with that approach. In legislating to protect access to cash, the Government have sought to provide that reassurance for those who rely on cash for a number of different reasons.

We have heard why it can be important for accessibility and for people to manage their finances. We have also heard about privacy concerns. However, we have not sought for the legislation to be prescriptive on the cost, type of facility or range of services offered at facilities. We are seeking to ensure that this primary legislation allows for innovation and flexibility, as the needs of people and our communities evolve over time. I think those advocating for greater access to services also recognised the need for that flexibility and change in needs over time. It is for those reasons that the Government do not support Amendments 176, 178, 182 and 185 from the noble Baronesses, Lady Tyler and Lady Twycross, and the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, we were addressing the question of when alternative service provision is put in place and the accessibility of that service provision.

I have addressed the point made by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans about connectivity. He also made a point about customers needing, for example, a smartphone to make payments or access online banking. The FCA has stated that it expects payment service providers to offer solutions that work for all groups of people. It encourages all firms to consider the impact of their solutions for customers. The regulators’ guidance recognises that not all customers will have mobile phones or a reliable signal and that viable alternatives should be provided in these situations.

All service providers, including banks and building societies, are bound under the Equality Act to make reasonable adjustments where necessary. Many of them support access to digital services through initiatives to distribute devices, teach skills, or facilitate support networks.

As my noble friend Lord Holmes highlighted, moving towards digital can create opportunities for accessibility but it can also create barriers. It is important that we embrace these technological changes in ways that reduce those barriers, so his point about ensuring that interfaces, including ATMs and point-of-sale terminals, are accessible is really important.

[Lord Eatwell (Lab)]

Would the Minister indulge me for a moment? I have been intrigued by her discussion of the role of digitisation. I refer to Amendment 184, tabled by my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe, on the duty to collect data on cash acceptance.

When teaching monetary economics, the first thing that you ask students to understand is, “What is money?” Money is something that is generally accepted in discharge of a debt. That is the definition of money. The issue of cash acceptance is therefore vital as society develops in the way that the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, outlined so clearly. What will happen is that, for the section of society who rely on cash—several million people—their cash will no longer be money. It will no longer be generally acceptable in payment of a debt. In those circumstances, the digital instrument will be crucial. However, if the digital instrument is issued only by companies, namely banks, to those who are customers of the banks, who have some basic criterion, it is surely the responsibility of the state to issue a digital instrument that is available to all citizens.

That being the case, to get to that stage, we need to know how cash is generally accepted. Therefore, the amendment, which contains a duty to collect data on cash acceptance, is vital for the development of future policy with respect to cash and digital instruments. The Minister rejected the amendment by saying that it is not the FCA’s responsibility. Can she tell me which department of government has this responsibility to collect data on cash acceptance?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, there are a number of ways to tackle the issues that the noble Lord referred to. There are various statistics around payment methods used by consumers in the UK; I quoted some at the start of my speech. The Government have not mandated service providers to accept certain forms of payment; that is not the approach we intend to take to ensure that people continue to have access to cash or money. I have said that, in supporting businesses’ access to deposit services, that will support people’s ability to use their cash as a form of payment.

The noble Lord also raised the question of a digital form of money. That is a question that the Government have looked at very carefully. We launched what I think was a joint consultation between the Government and the regulators, looking in more detail at the question of a central government digital currency and how to take forward that work, as well as considering questions such as those from the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, about privacy issues in a world of having a digital form of money versus having cash as a form of money.

I understand the importance of having a picture and the data that allows us to understand what is going on. I do not think that the data is necessarily the gap here; it is about how you provide for the ongoing use of cash in a society where rapid changes are being made. Our approach to that has been through legislating in this Bill on access to cash withdrawal and deposit facilities.

I was just talking about the importance of the accessibility of payment interfaces, including ATMs and point-of-sale terminals. I am pleased that UK Finance and the RNIB have developed accessibility guidelines for touch screen chip and PIN devices, as well as an approved list of accessible card terminals. The Government’s disability and access ambassador for banking, Kathryn Townsend, also encourages a consistent consumer experience and engagement with deaf advocacy groups.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I do not want to delay the Committee or the Minister but, on ATMs, I referred rather incoherently to the interchange fee paid by LINK. Will the Minister take back the issue that this is having a big impact on the viability of providing free cash by the companies that do so? This partly seems to be down to the ownership of LINK and the influence of banks in relation to it, but does she accept that there can be very profound effects when you lose free access to cash and have to pay for it? I was told this morning at a meeting with NoteMachine —one of the companies that provide cash—that six out of 10 withdrawals are for £10 because people are using it to budget. The problem is, if you no longer have access to free cash, you then have to pay £1.50 for it. That is a huge rate. These are some of the practical issues that I hope the Minister will be prepared to take away between now and Report.

Even accepting that the Minister may not be prepared to accept any of these amendments, it seems that at the moment we do not, despite FCA guidance, have a guarantee that the financial sector as a whole is going to change the way it operates. This is the problem that we face. If anything, its policies are driving cash out without recognising the impact on some very vulnerable people.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

On interchange fees, decisions regarding the operation and funding arrangements for an ATM network are taken by the parties involved. The noble Lord will know that LINK has commitments to protect the broad geographic spread of free-to-use ATMs and is held to account against those obligations and commitments by the Payment Systems Regulator. It has specifically committed to protect free-to-use ATMs more than one kilometre away from the next nearest free ATM or Post Office and free access to cash on high streets, and it supports free-to-use ATMs in deprived areas through its financial inclusion programme.

I recognise the point that the noble Lord has made. Coming back to the provision in the Bill, while I understand that different amendments have been tabled to look at how it could be enhanced or altered, it is important to acknowledge that legislating to protect access to cash is the Government recognising the point that the Committee made and taking action to address it. We want to have flexibility in how that is delivered, but we are providing for it in primary legislation and I hope that principle is welcomed, even though there are different opinions about how it could best be delivered.

Drawing towards the end of my remarks, I was going to note specifically on accessibility that that question was considered by the most recent Financial Inclusion Policy Forum. As I was saying to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, while the Government do not support these amendments, I hope that noble Lords recognise the action that is being taken through the Bill and elsewhere, because the Government take these issues seriously. It is right to consider the outcome that we are all trying to deliver in a changing world: accessible financial services. That can mean a range of things, such as for people on low incomes being able to budget their money or for accessibility when it comes to disability, age or other factors. The way we have tried to approach access to cash in the Bill is by looking at delivering those outcomes in a flexible way, so I hope that at the moment the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, is able to withdraw her amendment and that other noble Lords do not press their amendments.

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

My Lords, it feels some time now since we started this group of amendments. I thank the Minister for her measured response in which she tried hard to reflect quite a wide range of views on the issues we have been talking about. I also thank all other noble Lords who have contributed. This has been a fascinating debate. There has been a reasonable degree on consensus in places, but by no means full consensus, and I certainly understand that.

I want to refer to a very important comment made by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe. He said that this group is different and is about whether we want a divided society. Another noble Lord said—I am sorry but I cannot remember who it was—that banks are not charities. I think we all understand that but it is for us as legislators, a point I made in my opening speech, to decide on the sort of society that we want. That is actually what this group of amendments is about.

I listened to the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, and others, and I assure your Lordships that I am not stuck in the past. I make most of my payments by holding out my phone. However, a very helpful point was made by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, which was that there are times when I do not want to pay like that. I still want to use cash sometimes, even though I can hold my phone out, and it is rather important that I have that choice.

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Moved by

[Baroness Penn]

191: Schedule 11, page 213, line 3, leave out “financial”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would enable the Bank to direct a central counterparty’s parent company to establish a separate holding company as a parent of the subsidiary, rather than requiring that holding company to be a separate financial holding company.

Carers in England

Baroness Penn Excerpts

Monday 6th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Haskel]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to recognise the role of carers in England and their contribution to the economy.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Baroness Penn) (Con)]

Carers play a vital role in our communities and we owe them all a debt of gratitude. The adult social care sector employs 1.5 million people, with Skills for Care estimating that paid carers contribute around £50 billion to the English economy. In 2016, the ONS also estimated that the gross value added of unpaid care in the UK was £59.5 billion. The Government recognise the value of unpaid carers and provide financial recognition, primarily through the carer’s allowance.

[Lord Haskel (Lab)]

Yes, the Government are at last starting to recognise the value of carers. In spite of the excellent work of front-line carers, the paid-for system remains inadequate, even with the adult social care Bill—a Private Member’s Bill. We know that it is inadequate because millions of men and women, and even children, have to step in as part-time carers, limiting their time in work, education or training, at great cost to the economy. When are the Government going to introduce the social and economic reforms to the social care system that would enable these voluntary part-time carers to fully participate in and contribute to the economy?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The Government have set out our long-term plan for the reform of adult social care. In the autumn, we announced that we were making additional funding of up to £2.8 billion available in 2023-24, and £4.7 billion in the following year. Those decisions also involved a delay to rolling out some of the reforms that we had set out, so we will be updating our plan to implement that vision this spring, setting out the path forward.

[The Archbishop of Canterbury]

My Lords, about three years ago, my most reverend friend the Archbishop of York and I commissioned the Reimagining Care Commission, which the Minister is probably familiar with. It published its final report the other day. It sought to reimagine social care for our time, particularly to answer the question of who is responsible for what, given that it is not just the Government. Will the Government consider the commission’s main recommendation—that a national care covenant be created to set out clearly the mutual responsibilities of the Government, communities, families, churches and other organisations around care and support?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The Government welcome all contributions and ideas to this space, and I am sure that we will consider the proposals very carefully. As I have said, the Government set out their own plans in this area last year. We will update those plans, looking to put people at the heart of the social care system, this spring.

[Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD)]

My Lords, with over 7 million people in the UK juggling work alongside unpaid care, and continuing to contribute their much-needed skills to the economy at a time of labour shortages, will the Government commit to produce a cross-departmental strategy for unpaid carers? Will the Minister agree to meet me to discuss how this might best be done?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I will happily take the suggestion from the noble Baroness back. I, or perhaps someone else in the Government, could meet her to discuss it. She talked about many people juggling unpaid care with working responsibilities. That is why I am pleased that the Government are backing the Private Member’s Bill on carer’s leave, which will provide one week’s unpaid leave for carers.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, carer’s allowance is the lowest benefit of its kind. Research by Carers UK found many unpaid carers in poverty and struggling to make ends meet. Why, therefore, do the Government continue to refuse calls from Carers UK and others to raise the real value of carer’s allowance if, as they claim, they genuinely recognise and value the work that carers do?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, carer’s allowance and the carer’s element of universal credit will be uprated by inflation this April. For those carers on low incomes, the Government’s focused cost of living support will also help. That is worth up to £650 this year and £900 next year. I believe around 60% of low-income working-age carers are also in receipt of universal credit, so may be eligible for that support.

[Lord Polak (Con)]

My Lords, I was honoured to be a member of the Adult Social Care Committee over the last year. We produced the report A “Gloriously Ordinary Life’’: Spotlight on Adult Social Care, led by the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews. We are still waiting for the Government to respond. Among the 36 recommendations, we suggested that:

“The Government should establish in the next 12 months a Commissioner for Care and Support to act as a champion for older adults and disabled people and unpaid carers”.


Does the Minister agree?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the committee for all the work that it has done. I recognise that there has been a delay in responding to that report. I cannot pre-empt that response, but I reassure the noble Lord and all members of the committee that the Government are looking very carefully at the recommendations and taking them seriously.

[Lord Allan of Hallam (LD)]

My Lords, considering the role of paid carers as well as unpaid, has the Treasury done any modelling of the effects of raising carer salaries above the national minimum wage, where many of them are stuck today? Does the Minister agree that such a move to lift carer salaries could help with recruitment and retention as well as boost local economies, where most carer salaries are spent?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have considered a number of aspects for the adult social care workforce, including the support for training that can be provided and proper recognition of the profession. Of course, the noble Lord makes a point about pay as well.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government have long promised an employment Bill, which would allow Ministers to address some of the specific issues faced by carers, as well as others who face barriers to full economic participation. Given the absence of the Bill from last year’s Queen’s Speech, does it remain the Government’s intention to bring it forward? If so, when will we see it and, if not, how else will these issues be addressed?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, perhaps I can pick up on the noble Baroness’s final point. The Government are supporting the carer’s leave Private Member’s Bill to provide an entitlement to employees of one week of unpaid leave per year. We also support the flexible working Private Member’s Bill, which will make requesting flexible working an employment right from day 1, also providing more flexibility for those seeking to balance work and care. We are seeking to take forward the policies and proposals that we have set out while we await the arrival of the employment Bill.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, the Treasury does not seem to understand that by spending more money in one area, you can save even more in another area. If we spend more money in care homes, we can save a lot of money in the health service. As my noble friend Lord Haskel said, if we spend more money on carers, they can go out to work and help the economy. I have great faith in the noble Baroness. She has a lot of experience and is very persuasive. Will she go back to the Treasury and try to persuade it of this truth?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

Perhaps I can persuade the noble Lord to have a little more faith in the Treasury’s attitude towards these things. I set out in an earlier answer the additional money that is going into social care this year and next, which was announced alongside healthcare spending. But the amount that we were putting into social care was precisely to acknowledge the role it plays, for example, in reducing delays to discharge that are affecting our health system.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

The noble Baroness will know that if a patient has cancer, they are entitled to comprehensive healthcare free at the point of use. If they have dementia, they are subject to a very hard means test with often wholly inadequate care. Does she think this is justifiable, with all the challenges we face, particularly for older people?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord has set out the difficulties that there can be in drawing the lines between health and social care, but those distinctions are made in our system and removing them could have significant cost implications. The Government have set out their vision for the way forward on social care and will update it later this year. It is about reforms matched with increased funding.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Baroness Penn Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 1st March 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, the most important thing to have come out of this debate, which is now in its fifth or sixth day—frankly, I have lost count—is that the regulatory environment lacks sufficient parliamentary scrutiny; there is enormous consensus about that idea. We have heard several solutions. At least three groups have touched on this issue, and I hope this is the last group to do so. I will go as far as saying that it is an interesting idea. I say that in the sense that I am representing His Majesty’s loyal Opposition, and at the moment we have some concerns about resource consumption, et cetera.

However, if we take all the ideas together, I am convinced that they can be moulded into an important step forward in involving Parliament, and involving sufficient resource to make that involvement effective. We should set about trying to do that. The noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, said this more elegantly than I will, but if you toss a bunch of amendments together and hope that they are internally consistent and capable of execution, you are kidding yourself. I fear that that is where we are at the moment. If we were to vote on all the amendments we have had over the last five days or so, that would not work.

What should happen now—it will be interesting to see whether it does, and I shall do all I can to encourage it—is that cross-party discussions take place, focused on taking the best ideas and putting them together in a way that will work and will have support. This has to be a coalition that is irresistible in the parliamentary process, and that is possible. When you look at that lot over there, this lot here and us, that is a hell of a force for the Government to try to ignore, so I hope we can find ways of bringing us together. I hope the Minister will want to join in that process at some point and will want to see whether we can achieve a consensus with the Government. I strongly advise her today not to close off options. Options have to be open to try to move into this area.

There seems to be a secondary area, which I will loosely call the Lilley area, about legal involvement. I clearly do not understand enough of what this is about; I suspect a lot of people do not. There is confusion and, from what I have heard experts say, it is a dangerous confusion. We should stick to that central issue of parliamentary scrutiny, properly supported to be effective—and the time has come.

Some of us slogged through a Bill, about a year and a half or two years ago—I am losing track of time—where we worked quite hard on this and made very little progress, as we got rid of all the EU rules and then put all the stuff in the hands of the regulators. Many of us felt uncomfortable that there was not more scrutiny, but we did not really come up with a solution. Clearly, we are in a solution-rich environment now; the trick is to bring it together into a solution that will work, and it must be done now. This is the last legislative opportunity, in my view, that we will see for some time, so I hope that cross-party discussions take place and that we can take a real step forward for the industry and for democracy.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Baroness Penn) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friends Lord Bridges of Headley and Lord Lilley for tabling these amendments, and for their contributions to this discussion.

I will speak first to Amendments 160 to 166, tabled by my noble friend Lord Bridges. The Government agree, and have been clear, that more responsibility for the regulators should be balanced with clear accountability, appropriate democratic input and transparent oversight. The proposed creation of a new regulatory body to oversee the regulators—a so-called regulator of the regulators, although I know that my noble friend set out why he thought that term did not apply—raises further questions about how the accountability structures for the various regulatory bodies would operate. The Government would need to carefully consider how to ensure clear accountability to both government and Parliament under such a model.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, talked—it feels a long time ago—about the need for greater clarity on where accountability lies in this system. I am not sure whether it is clear that the addition of a further body to the system would provide greater clarity on where accountability lies.

[Lord Bridges of Headley (Con)]

How does the OBR undermine accountability? Surely it just provides independent analysis and assessment, and I see no problem there.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I believe that is sometimes subject to debate. What I was saying to noble Lords is that it raises questions in this area that we need to consider. If I look back to the creation of the OBR, it was in the Conservative manifesto at the 2010 election; indeed, it was set up in shadow form in 2009. It was first established not in statute and operated without statute after 2010. The provisions for its establishment in statute were then brought forward in a Bill, where there was sufficient time to consider those questions.

I am not saying definitively one way or another, but it raises questions that we would need to consider more carefully about who this body is accountable to and the interactions with parliamentary accountability that we have discussed today; the need for clarity on accountability, raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt; and, for example, the remarks by the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, on the role that the body could have in filling the space that allows industry to make private submissions to the new body, rather than public submissions as happened through Select Committees, and how that marries with the provisions in the amendments on the need for this body to operate transparently.

These are questions that are raised in considering how such a body would operate in this landscape. There is the potential that it could duplicate or dilute the roles within the regulatory framework of government and Parliament to scrutinise and hold the regulators to account.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

There is a problem in the approach that the Minister is taking. She is suggesting that the body proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, will add to the accountability structure. I have added my name to the amendment and, as I see it, the body is there to support those who wish to hold the two regulators to account. It is not there to add to the architecture of accountability but to aid Parliament and others to hold them properly to account. There is a distinction.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

Whether it is there to aid others in the accountability structure or is an accountability body itself is a further question, but its proposed role raises questions about, for example, how transparently it operates, as the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, touched on, and other such considerations. I merely said to my noble friend who raised this point that the establishment of the OBR happened in a Bill of its own after a manifesto commitment, and that it had been up and running for some time before it was put into statute. It is not unreasonable to say that considerations need to be made when we think about this issue.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

There are certainly considerations, but surely one of them is that we have an opportunity to make the change in this Bill, and we will not have another opportunity for a very long time. The Minister is proposing that we do not do it, frankly. Therefore, let us do it in this Bill, because it is the one opportunity that we have.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I would never want to speculate as to future parliamentary timetables. My noble friend Lord Naseby talked about the importance of listening to those who are impacted by the provisions of the Bill. He spoke about the City, and we have heard various points of view in that respect. I would add consumers into that mix, too. I say to noble Lords that the Government have consulted extensively on the approach we are taking in the Bill, and we have received a number of responses on this specific issue in both future regulatory framework review consultations that took place. Although I absolutely recognise that a small number of respondents were supportive of further consideration of such a body, the vast majority were focused on how existing mechanisms for accountability to Parliament and government and engagement with stakeholders could be strengthened. The Government therefore decided, in response to those consultations, against creating a new body, and focused on ensuring that the mechanisms for Parliament and government to scrutinise the regulators are effective.

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD)]

Will the Minister clarify what the questions were in the consultation? My recollection was that it was relatively open. Obviously, at that stage, industry was focused on its very important relationship with government—one cannot overestimate the importance of that—and it answered questions saying that it was happy with parliamentary scrutiny, but I have no recollection of there being a suggestion as to whether there should be another body that enabled any kind of regular review. Since that time, industry bodies have said that it would be a good idea, so it seems a bit inconsistent to claim that the consultation cleared the way to say that none was required.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I was simply pointing out that this Bill is the result of two rounds of consultation. The Government are criticised for bringing forward proposals without sufficient consultation. I note the noble Baroness’s points but, even in the context of those questions, there were bodies that put forward the kinds of ideas that we are discussing today. However, in the balance of responses to that consultation, they were not the dominant voice or viewpoint from the range of different people who responded to us.

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[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, in my day, although it may have changed, when the Government issued a consultation document, it was basically to get agreement to what they wanted to do. In the case of the OBR, I remember the then Chancellor, George Osborne, arguing that the OBR was necessary in order that people could see that the Government were being honest and were subject to some kind of scrutiny, and that it would provide independent information that would enable Parliament and others to take a view.

I am trying to put this delicately, but my noble friend’s argument seems to be that the Treasury set out a consultation and reached an agreement so it is in the Bill. But the view that is coming out very clearly is that, for Parliament or anyone else to effectively hold the Treasury and the regulators to account, it is necessary to have an independent source of information. My noble friend is just reading out what we already know is in the Bill, but there is pretty well universal acceptance that that does not actually provide for sufficient accountability. Could she deal with that point? Why on earth would she be against something that would enable more transparency and more effective scrutiny?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I am afraid I am going to have to disagree with my noble friend’s point about consultation. I have spent too long in this Chamber, even in a limited time, being on the receiving end of scrutiny from noble Lords about the lack of consultation. The proposals in the Bill have gone through two rounds of public consultation. My noble friend may not see the value in public consultation, but that is not something that has been fed back to me in my dealings in other policy areas.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

Forgive me, but I did not say anything of the sort. Of course I can see the value in consultation. What I do not see the value in is consultation that then concludes that the Government should do what they wanted to do in the first place.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

That is not what I am saying. One of the things that I was referring to with regard to the powers in the Bill was an amendment tabled in the Commons stages to try to respond to further questions about how we can facilitate accountability. I think I have been clear to all noble Lords in this Committee that that is a question that the Government will continue to consider and to engage with noble Lords on, whether it is about strengthening parliamentary accountability or other measures that help to provide the information and resources that people need to do that work. The Government will continue to reflect on those points.

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD)]

I am sorry to interrupt, but I find it slightly strange that the Minister is saying the Government will continue to interact with us. All that that interaction has been so far is “No”.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

In Committee, we are discussing the different proposals that have come from noble Lords to solve these problems. I am trying to set out where the Government have previously considered these questions and the thinking behind our approach in the Bill, demonstrating that where we have been able to, for example in the introduction of Clause 37, we have made amendments to the Bill further to take into account some of these issues. When it comes to the specific proposals we are talking about, it is right that I set out that this has been considered by the Government, including through public consultation.

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

I was not going to speak on this group in order to have a speedier debate, but I completely failed in that aim, so I think I am allowed to say something now. Can my noble friend explain to what extent these two consultations actually address the issues that have been raised by the amendments of my noble friend Lord Bridges? From memory, neither of the consultations examined the idea of having some kind of independent scrutiny of the regulators; they merely proceeded on the basis of what the Government wanted to do and did not seek to analyse the benefits of an alternative solution.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

That is a similar question to that of the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, and it is probably because I did not answer it satisfactorily that it has come up again. Noble Lords are right that there was not a question on those specific proposals in those consultations. I endeavour to point out, however, that does not prevent the respondents to those consultations, where they believe it to be a good idea, to use them to put forward their support for such an approach. Perhaps I could write to noble Lords specifically on the areas within both those consultations that touched on accountability measures.

[Lord Bridges of Headley (Con)]

To be absolutely clear and just to put it on the record, therefore, the proposal in my amendment has not been consulted on? Is that correct?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

It would be best to set out in writing for noble Lords the specific areas of the consultation that sought to address the issues we are discussing today. As I have said, in response to those consultations, certain respondents put forward proposals in this area, so it is not right to say that it was not a topic for consultation. However, as my noble friend wants clarity on the record, I think that would be best delivered in writing.

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD)]

Perhaps I could intervene on this important point. In the first consultation, there were some respondents—I confess, I was one of them—who put forward notions of there being independent scrutiny. There were possibly some other organisations, I do not know, of the kind that come forward with policy ideas. But I suggest that the majority of respondents tended to be from the industry, and it is not usual for industry to invent new ideas in their responses to consultations. I asked some of the industry bodies about this at the time, and that was the response I got. They said that they thought that, as I had led the way, they might want to pick it up in later consultation—but by the time you get to round two, it is much more concentrated on what will be in the Bill and “Do you agree with this?” It does not say “And, by the way, what have we left out that might have been a good idea?” Industry does not spend its time and risk putting in responses about that kind of thing.

I should be very interested to hear the analysis of the type and numbers of people who responded. Frankly, we have to rely on what we are told. Once upon a time, you used to know who had responded and could judge, and if the weight of the responses came from industry, I am not surprised that there was nothing in there. If the weight of the responses from the non-industry part had some good ideas, perhaps the Minister could tell us.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

As I have said, I will set out further detail on the consultation process in writing. It is worth just noting that this question was also considered by Parliament through the Treasury Select Committee in its report The Future Framework for Regulation of Financial Services, which said that

“The creation of a new independent body to assess whether regulators were fulfilling their statutory objectives would not remove the responsibility of this Committee to hold the regulators to account, and it would also add a further body to the financial services regulatory regime which we would need to scrutinise.”

[Lord Tyrie (Non-Afl)]

Can the Minister explain whether that constitutes opposition? I had a cup of tea with the chairman of the Treasury Select Committee only the day before yesterday to try to establish exactly that. She is fully supportive of the idea—we ought to get that on the record—although I should also say that she had not specifically consulted her committee on it.

The Minister must see that the Government are probably going to lose a vote on this at Report. Would she be prepared to sit down with a group of us to see whether we can work up some sort of proposal that she might be prepared to accept? To make that meeting effective, in the meantime, would she be prepared to ask her officials, on a contingency basis and without any commitment at all on her part, to write down on the back of an envelope—a long envelope, I admit—what it is that might conceivably, in certain circumstances, be acceptable to the Government?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I believe that I have already made the offer to noble Lords to meet to discuss the issue of accountability, both parliamentary accountability and the proposals such as those put forward in the amendments today. That still stands. I am afraid that I cannot—

[Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)]

I apologise for interrupting. The Minister is quite right that she has made that offer. We were grateful for it, but it is of fairly limited use if there is no recognition on the part of the Government that there is a gap here in terms of parliamentary accountability and scrutiny. She has not actually said yet that she recognises that there is a gap. I have to say that she should look around her: it is pretty clear that it is there.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

What I have tried to say to noble Lords is that, in bringing forward the proposals in this Bill, we absolutely recognise that, with the increased responsibilities that go to the regulator, we need to ensure that there is proper accountability and scrutiny. We have put forward the proposals in the Bill to attempt to do that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I did not finish the note I was writing to myself to try to draw the debate on my noble friend’s group of amendments to a close for now. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, I was setting out that the Government believe there needs to be clear and greater accountability for the regulators, given the greater powers they are taking on. We have set out our approach to this in the Bill. When it went through the House of Commons, we demonstrated our openness to finding new and improved ways to strengthen our approach.

Where the Government have considered and consulted on some of the options the Committee is discussing today—or bodies such as the existing Select Committees of this or the other House have considered those options—it is right to draw this Committee’s attention to the feedback we have had in those consultations or through those Select Committee processes. As I have said to noble Lords on numerous occasions, we will listen carefully to the various debates we have had, reflect on what has been discussed and meet and engage with noble Lords, who have clearly expressed their concerns on this matter, to see what further progress can be made.

I turn to my noble friend Lord Lilley’s Amendments 169 to 174. On Amendment 169, I believe I set out the Government’s position on a predictability and consistency objective in earlier debates. While the Government agree that predictability and consistency are important components of an effective regulatory regime, we do not think they are appropriate objectives for the regulators. Similarly, the Government consider that such objectives do not need to be applied to the Upper Tribunal’s decision-making.

Amendment 171 seeks to enable the Upper Tribunal to quash all rules made by the regulators. The Government consider that the regulatory framework, including through enhancements in the Bill, provides multiple opportunities and avenues for challenge and review of the rules, both before and after they are made. For example, Clause 27 introduces a new power for the Treasury to require the regulators to review their rules when it is in the public interest. I also note that the courts already have a role within the existing framework, where necessary, as decisions of the regulators are subject to judicial review.

Amendments 170 and 172 both concern the routes of redress available to consumers. The Financial Ombudsman Service already plays a valuable role in providing consumers with a swift and effective means of resolving disputes with financial services firms.

Amendment 170 would enable those currently eligible to bring claims to the FOS—consumers and most SMEs—to bring actions against firms for breaches of regulator rules in a new financial services chamber within the First-tier Tribunal. These actions could be brought even where the FOS had made a final decision. The FOS and the Business Banking Resolution Service already provide a cost-free alternative to the courts for consumers and 99% of SMEs. Going to court can be expensive for the parties involved and delay redress. It would likely be more expensive for consumers and SMEs to bring civil actions in the First-tier Tribunal than through the existing redress process.

I turn to Amendment 172. Establishing a new body with a different remit would take up resource from industry, government and the regulators and slow down redress for consumers without a clear need for this change. The key difference between the proposed new body and the FOS is that the new body would not be able to consider what was fair and reasonable in all the circumstances of a case when taking a decision. This consideration enables the FOS to take into account wider factors relevant to the case, such as regulator guidance and industry codes of practice at the time. This is in addition to the requirement in FSMA for the FOS to consider relevant law and regulator rules, and it enables it to tailor its decision to the particular circumstances of a case and ensure a fair and reasonable outcome for all parties.

The FOS’s ability to consider issues of fairness and reasonableness beyond a strict application of the law and regulator rules is consistent with its role as an informal alternative to the courts. FOS decisions can be, and have been, judicially reviewed by parties who are not satisfied with the reasons provided by the FOS for the decision.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD)]

I think the Minister has just said that she will engage but that the answer is still “no”.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I have set out why the Government have concerns and that we should have further conversations to explore the issues that have been raised. I believe that is neither a “yes” nor a “no”.

[Lord Bridges of Headley (Con)]

My Lords, I will conclude this two and a half hour debate on just the first group and my amendment. I am delighted and thankful to noble Lords on all sides of the House who have supported it. The amendment is mine; the concept belongs to others. I am extremely grateful to my noble friend the Minister for offering to engage. However, I question the word “further”; I have not had any engagement and, so far, all I have heard is three things.

The first is that the Government believe that the measures in the Bill are sufficient. I think there is unanimous support, on both sides of the Committee, that, as far as accountability and scrutiny go, the measures are insufficient and need to be improved. The second is that the Minister is actually against the measures in my amendment today and the third is that they have been consulted on, whereas we have established from the earlier interventions that the specific amendment I propose, with this concept, has not been consulted on and that it was up to others to come up with that. In my view, that is not a consultation.

The Committee has stressed just how important this issue is, not just by the fact that we have been debating it for two and a half hours but because of what my noble friend Lord Hill and others said about the importance of ensuring that our regulators are truly accountable. The noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, made this point extremely well, as does my noble friend Lord Hill in an article in the Financial Times which was published just this afternoon. My noble friend says that

“what regulators decide directly affects our ability to compete and grow”

and that it follows that getting a regulatory framework right

“is central to our national wellbeing”.

He then says that we risk creating

“a new system of unaccountable British regulation”.

I repeat: unaccountable British regulation, and that is despite the measures that my noble friend says are in the Bill to increase accountability and scrutiny. I think we agree that they are completely insufficient.

As the noble Lords, Lord Eatwell and Lord Tyrie, said, this is not a question of just one or another of the little things that we have debated over the last few weeks on the Bill. A package needs to be brought together and it should address three points. One is improving the data that the regulators themselves provide. The second is arming Parliament with independent analysis, and I do not buy for a moment what my noble friend says about it undermining the independence of regulators. It is about arming Parliament and others with independent analysis of what the regulators are up to. The third is improving parliamentary accountability and scrutiny; my noble friend Lord Trenchard and others have made this point, as my noble friend Lady Noakes did in a previous session. These three things hang together.

I am delighted that my noble friend the Minister is willing to meet us, but I very much hope that she comes there with an open mind and a constructive attitude, not just a sense of no. I will obviously not press this amendment to a vote now but I can absolutely assure her that if the outcome of those conversations is not one that meets the challenge at hand, I will have absolutely no hesitation in pressing this to a vote at Report.

--- Later in debate ---

I am hearing noises off. Should I stop or continue?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

You should finish.

[Baroness Sheehan (LD)]

Thank you. I come to Amendment 232 in my name on green savings bonds. My reason for tabling this amendment is to draw attention to the success of the National Savings and Investments green savings bonds, which are an important part of the green finance landscape. Really it is a pat on the back for the Government—much-needed, maybe —so the Minister should view this as an opportunity for the Government to congratulate themselves. For me, it is an opportunity to ask them what more they can do to raise awareness of these bonds and promote them more aggressively. After all, the Climate Change Committee identified public engagement and behaviour change as major elements in the success of measures to keep the planet in a fit state for future generations, but many people complain that knowing what to do for the best is confusing. These bonds represent a safe way of putting their money to work for the benefit of all our futures.

Here is the background. The NS&I’s new green savings bonds became available from 22 October 2021, introduced by the then Chancellor, Rishi Sunak. They pay a fixed rate of interest over a three-year fixed term, and the current rate is 4.2%. The minimum deposit is £100 and the maximum is £100,000 per person. NS&I’s savings accounts are long-standing, recognisable and safe. They are hugely popular with UK savers, not least because investments are totally safe, being 100% backed by the Treasury. There is not the usual limit of £85,000 that there is with providers covered by the Financial Services Compensation Scheme. Many savers want to make green and ethical investment choices. Work by the Cambridge Institute for Sustainability Leadership found that the median saver would prefer a sustainable fund, even if they have to sacrifice up to 2.5% returns.

Money saved with NS&I’s green savings bonds is used to fund six types of green projects: making transport cleaner; switching to renewable energy; improving energy efficiency; pollution prevention and control; protecting living and natural resources; and adapting to climate change. These projects are publicised and clearly audited for climate and nature benefits. Another benefit is that raising funds through NS&I can actually give greater financial stability than raising funds on the financial markets. During the meltdown in borrowing costs following the botched “fiscal event” in September last year, investors in NS&I did not dump their bonds because they could not do so; there was no panic in NS&I’s offices in Blackpool, Glasgow, Birkenhead and Durham—please note, none in the south-east—because the bonds are not transferable. Further, when a larger amount of a Government’s debt is held by their citizens, it is less prone to volatility. There is lots to like about the products. There are few cash-based green savings products in the market, especially ones with such a high level of transparency about their use of proceeds.

My amendment is intended to put in the public domain at regular intervals the contribution made by the NS&I’s green bonds and the like towards UK green financing and the consequent reduction in targeted greenhouse gas emissions. It is worded in such a way as not to make proposals over the amount of government borrowing or how they should raise taxes, only to seek information on how the Government are raising funds for green investment. It would be helpful if the Minister could say how much has been raised through the Government’s green bonds to date, how much is forecast to be raised annually in future and what the Government’s ambition is for their future, including in relation to the promotion of these products.

Tax Credits, Child Benefit and Guardian’s Allowance Up-rating Regulations 2023

Baroness Penn Excerpts

Monday 27th February 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Penn]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 16 January be approved. Considered in Grand Committee on 22 February

Motions agreed.

Tax Credits, Child Benefit and Guardian’s Allowance Up-rating Regulations 2023

Baroness Penn Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd February 2023 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Penn]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Tax Credits, Child Benefit and Guardian’s Allowance Up-rating Regulations 2023.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Baroness Penn) (Con)]

My Lords, I shall speak first to the Social Security (Contributions) (Rates, Limits and Thresholds Amendments and National Insurance Funds Payments) Regulations 2023. These regulations set the national insurance contributions limits and thresholds, as well as the rates of a number of national insurance contributions classes, for the 2023-24 tax year and make provision for a Treasury grant to be paid into the National Insurance Fund if required. While the scope of the regulations under discussion today is limited to the 2023-24 tax year, I will also note where the Chancellor has committed to maintain certain thresholds at their current levels in future years.

National insurance contributions, or NICs, are social security contributions. They allow people to make contributions when they are in work in order to receive contributory benefits when they are not working, for example, when they are retired or if they become unemployed. NICs receipts go towards funding these contributory benefits, as well as the NHS.

I begin with NICs for employed and self-employed people. The primary threshold and lower profits limit indicate the points at which employees and the self-employed start paying class 1 and class 4 NICs, respectively. In the Spring Statement 2022, the Government raised the primary threshold and lower profits limit from £9,880 to £12,570 to align with the income tax personal allowance, fulfilling the Government’s ambition of ensuring that the first £12,500 earned by individuals is tax free. These changes were implemented in July 2022. In the Autumn Statement 2022, to ensure that the tax system supports strong public finances and that those who are able to pay more do so, the Chancellor announced that these thresholds would be fixed until 2028.

At the same time, the Government are fixing the lower earnings limit, which will remain at £6,396 per annum, or £123 per week, in 2023-24; and the small profits threshold, which will remain at £6,725 in 2023-24. Fixing these thresholds will mean that more low-earning working people will still gain entitlement to contributory benefits and build up qualifying years towards their state pensions without paying NICs.

In the Spring Statement 2022, the Government also announced that self-employed individuals with profits between the small profits threshold and the lower profits limit will continue to build up national insurance credits without paying any class 2 NICs. Class 2 NICs will now be paid above the newly introduced lower profits threshold, which is also set at £12,570 to align with the NICs lower profits limit for class 4 NICs—again delivering the pledge that the first £12,500 earned is tax free.

The upper earnings limit, which is the point at which the main rate of employee NICs drops to 2%, and the upper profits limit, which is the point at which the main rate of self-employed individuals’ NICs drops to 2%, are aligned with the higher rate threshold for income tax. That threshold will also be fixed at £50,270 until April 2028.

The flat cash rate of class 2 NICs will increase from £3.15 in 2022-23 to £3.45 in 2023-24, in line with inflation. Self-employed people earning below £6,725 may pay class 2 NICs voluntarily to protect their entitlement to certain contributory benefits.

Class 3 NICs allow people to voluntarily top up their national insurance record. The rate for class 3 will increase in line with inflation from £15.85 a week in 2022-23 to £17.45 a week in 2023-24.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I too thank the Minister for setting out these two instruments. I also thank my noble friend Lady Lister for her attention to the detail of these matters and to the ease with which an apparently rational change can compound itself through the complexity of the rules into extremely unhelpful marginal tax rates. I hope the Minister will give her some comfort that there will be some review in the foreseeable future of the very high marginal tax rates emanating from these complex rules.

The Minister outlined an increase in tax credits, child benefit and guardian’s allowance of 10.1%—that is, CPI inflation between September 2021 and September 2022. While acknowledging that further instruments are to come on other social security benefits, I will make some general points about the current economic context and the Government’s approach.

Families across the country have faced an incredibly difficult time of late, with household bills climbing significantly. Although there has been energy support for low-income households, there has not been equivalent help as they face soaring food, phone and broadband bills. Food inflation has been running at far higher than 10% for many months, leading many households to cut back and to a worrying number of parents skipping meals to provide for their children.

The Government’s reluctance to commit to the usual uprating process when asked has caused a significant amount of anxiety for social security claimants across the country. For months, successive Prime Ministers and Chancellors—we have had many of each—ducked the question and even floated alternatives such as lower percentage increases or lump-sum payments. We are glad that the current Chancellor finally did the right thing, but I hope the Minister will acknowledge that months of indecision were not helpful for household planning or people’s mental health.

The second instrument gives effect to the annual re-rating of national insurance contribution rates, limits and thresholds. Although the Autumn Statement fixed many of those rates limits and thresholds at the 2022-23 level, some of them—class 2 and class 3 contributions—were increased by 10.1%. This will bring tens of thousands of individuals into national insurance by the 2027-28 tax year. However, the Government have not been prepared to specify what the practical impact will be. The statutory instrument’s Explanatory Memorandum refers to a small tax increase in cash terms but, with household budgets as stretched as they are, any increase is likely to cause concern. This was the subject of a debate in another place, but Minister Atkins was unable to provide a figure. Can the Minister do so today?

We do not oppose these measures, so I will not detain the Committee any longer. However, once again, I hope that the Minister will acknowledge that the Government could have provided certainty sooner. Let us hope that they do better later this year.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I thank both noble Lords for their contributions to today’s debate.

I am glad that the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, recognised the significant uprating of child benefit brought forward in these regulations. I note her point about the overall value of child benefit if you look at it over a longer time period. Child benefit is one of many ways in which the Government support families with children. Over the same period, we have introduced other significant measures, such as free school meals for infants and 30 hours of free childcare.

On the figures and analysis that the noble Baroness brought forward on the child benefit high-income charge, I am afraid that I cannot confirm them as they go beyond the scope of the regulations we are discussing, but I will take her comments back to the Treasury and ensure that they are considered properly.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

I am grateful to the Minister for that. However, can I also point out that there may be other forms of support but, in terms of financial support for children, it is not just child benefit that has been cut in real terms? All financial support for children has been cut in real terms: tax credits, universal credit, whatever. The fact is that families with children have been disproportionately hit by austerity.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

In some ways, that takes me on to the comments from the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, about the broader decision to uprate benefits by 10.1%, which has been welcomed across both Houses, at a time when families face significant pressures. That process followed the normal course for the uprating of benefits.

It is important to recognise that other significant support has been put in place at the same time to help those families to which the noble Lord referred. This includes not just energy support through the £400 energy bills support scheme and the £150 council tax rebate scheme for most households living in a property in council tax bands A to D; it also includes the targeting of support for millions of the most vulnerable households through cost of living payments, which were targeted specifically at those on means-tested benefits, pensioners and those who receive disability benefits, who are less able to meet those cost of living pressures. That has been at the forefront of the Government’s mind. Benefits uprating has been an important part of addressing that, but we took action in advance of the uprating; that support continues into next year.

Social Security (Contributions) (Rates, Limits and Thresholds Amendments and National Insurance Funds Payments) Regulations 2023

Baroness Penn Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd February 2023 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Penn]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Social Security (Contributions) (Rates, Limits and Thresholds Amendments and National Insurance Funds Payments) Regulations 2023.

Motion agreed.