Artists and Musicians: Working in Europe

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Thursday 9th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kennedy of Cradley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have (1) to reduce the red tape, and (2) to improve access, for artists and musicians based in the United Kingdom seeking to work in Europe.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government want our creative and cultural industries to be able to tour abroad easily. We have moved at pace to provide clarity. This includes publishing traveller summaries for individual member states and sector-specific landing pages to make relevant guidance easily accessible on GOV.UK. Nineteen member states have confirmed that they allow some visa-free and permit-free short-term tours, and we are actively encouraging the remaining member states to match the UK’s generous rules.

[Baroness Kennedy of Cradley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, the lack of any deal for the creative industries in the Brexit negotiations has caused considerable anger, especially for the many thousands of British musicians who rely on touring Europe for a large part of their income. What work has been done specifically with the eight EU member states that the Government identified earlier in the summer that will require musicians to use visa and work permits to perform? Does the noble Baroness agree that the UK risks losing its dominant position in the European live music market if this situation remains unresolved?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

Formal approaches have been made by officials and DCMS to the eight states to which the noble Baroness refers. Ministers are also working closely with the sector to amplify each other’s lobbying efforts. I cannot accept her final assertion that we will lose our place in the world, given the talent of our artists and the work that we are carrying out.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, in addition to the member states that do not allow visa-free touring for UK musicians and performers, there are numerous complications to access the countries that allow it. With more travel now taking place as Covid restrictions lift, will there be a transition fund to support our live entertainment sector similar to that provided to the fishing industry? Can the Minister indicate what assessment has been made of the implications for our UK music and performance sector resulting from the restrictive arrangements for touring in the EU?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right to say that the situation is more complex than previously and that is why we remain disappointed that our initial ambitious approach was not accepted by the EU. She will be aware that we have given a total sum approaching £2 billion to support our creative sector during the pandemic. We are looking at a range of issues for further support and approaches, including proposals for a creative export office.

[Lord German (LD)]

I declare my interest as chair of the trustees of the Parliament choir. Can the Minister distinguish between talks and negotiations? Talks are what are referred to in the government statement as speaking to countries, including clarifying what happens in the EU withdrawal agreement. However, negotiation is needed here to reduce the red tape and create a frictionless trade for those parts of our economy that are so strong in exporting our artistic examples. How many countries have the UK Government engaged with in negotiation, with the aim of removing red tape such as cabotage, carnets and permits currently strangling our industry?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am not sure whether I have the exact precision of the noble Lord’s use of language but we have set out that we now have clear guidance around short-term touring with 19 member states. However, we are also focused on the outcomes and achieving ease of movement for our artists, including existing successes such as clarifying, for example, that touring artists and support staff will not be double charged for social security contributions.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, have not the Proms wonderfully illustrated this summer what an international language music is? Can we make it plain that we in this country are prepared to admit any European musicians, just as we welcomed Haydn and Mozart in the 18th century?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My noble friend is absolutely right and already we have announced, for the reasons he set out, generous criteria for European musicians performing here.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister share the frustration that many in this House feel at not getting from the Government any estimate of the damage being done by the failure to negotiate a deal at the time we left the European Union? If she does, can she give us some figures, first, for the number of British musicians, artists and others who were able to travel unimpeded in 2019 and, secondly, for those who have been able to travel in 2021? Perhaps I may discourage reference to Covid because I have just spent some time in France, where its festivals were going at pace.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I accept the noble Lord’s reservation about referring to Covid but the most important reason for the damage done in the past 12 months has been Covid. As for bands, I am not sure about the noble Lord’s musical tastes but I am informed that bands such as Jungle and Jake Bugg are already booking European tours; festivals are starting; we are both emerging; and established bands will be performing in, for example, Croatia and Spain.

[Lord Strasburger (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the creative arts sector was completely omitted from the EU trade deal, despite being the UK’s largest sector after financial services. The Government should urgently be fixing this gaping hole in their trade agreement. Instead, they are overselling their meaningless mitigations that do little to reduce the catastrophic impact on British performers and companies. Can the Minister please explain why the Government are still painting the signs while the wheels are coming off?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government are doing anything but painting the signs and I should like to put on record our thanks to our officials who have been working tirelessly to sort these issues out.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, the Society of London Theatre estimates that the live entertainment sector was worth more than £11 billion in gross value-added—four times as valuable as the US market for British artists. Given that the sector faces such significant new operational and financial burdens as a result of the trade and co-operation agreement, will my noble friend consider providing extra support, particularly for the smaller and emerging artists who are so disproportionately disadvantaged by the different red tape and work permit requirements that each country imposes?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

As my noble friend will have heard, we have already given unprecedented support approaching £2 billion to the sector. We are working tirelessly to make sure that the practical advice works for the sector and we thank it for its co-operation and feedback on that. We are exploring the options for a creative export office.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is clear from industry that any one of a number of concerns, whether visas, permits, carnets, CITES or cabotage, may by themselves make touring impossible through costs, red tape or, in the case of cabotage, the sheer impracticalities involved, as things stand? The department’s August announcement was misleading. This matter urgently needs to be sorted out through further discussions with the EU.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

We are keen and our aim is to make touring completely accessible once more to all artists who wish to tour. Our belief is that the best way to do that is through bilateral agreements with individual member states, which is what we are doing.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I follow on from the questions of the noble Lord, Lord German, and the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty. The noble Lord, Lord German, asked about talks and negotiations. I am not going to draw a line between them but will pick up on the point about cabotage. Are any active talks or negotiations—however they are described—going on, on either a bilateral or an EU-wide basis, to deal with the issue of cabotage?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness will be aware that during our negotiations with the EU we pressed for a special derogation from the cabotage restrictions. We are working closely on the issue with the Department for Transport, which recently issued a call for evidence. We are working with the department and the sector to resolve the issue.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed. I call the noble Lord, Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale.

Football Grounds: Safe Standing

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Wednesday 8th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mann]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have for the introduction of safe standing at football grounds in England.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are working closely with the Sports Grounds Safety Authority—the SGSA—towards implementing the manifesto commitment to work with fans and clubs towards introducing safe standing. The Government expect to announce next steps in the coming weeks.

[Lord Mann (Non-Afl)]

I declare my interest as the elected chair of the Leeds United Supporters Club. Every supporters’ club in the Premier League backs safe standing now. What timescale is the Minister giving clubs for the rather complex discussions and arrangements to introduce it for next season?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I had hoped that the noble Lord would be stunned and happy at the accuracy of my prediction about more information in the next few weeks. He will also be aware that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State confirmed that standing would be seen at top games this season, albeit in all likelihood initially in pilot form.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister has given us some information but not very much. Would she like to start by thanking my noble friend Lord Foster for setting this ball rolling with a Private Member’s Bill about 10 years ago? If we are going to do work in football stadiums to change the way that seats are put out, can we have an assurance that the first thing we will do is make sure that wheelchair and disability access are of a sufficient standard? This has been promised for even longer than my noble friend’s Bill.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I hope I can address both of the noble Lord’s points. I am delighted to thank the noble Lord, Lord Foster, for his early work on this. The research by the Sports Grounds Safety Authority has demonstrated that introducing standing areas can not only reduce conflict but improve wheelchair access.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, over the summer, we sadly learned of the passing of Andrew Devine, who suffered life-changing injuries during the Hillsborough disaster. The coroner ruled that he should be considered the 97th fatality caused by the events of 15 April 1989. Since the horrors of that day, many improvements have been made at football grounds and these must be welcomed. While Labour supports exploring options for the safe reintroduction of standing, it remains an emotive issue for many. Can the Minister confirm that the department recognises the need to handle this topic sensitively and take time to consider fully the evidence gathered in pilots across various leagues before making a final decision?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord makes an extremely important point. Obviously, the context of all these discussions is the Hillsborough tragedy, which he rightly raises. The department is currently working with a wide range of supporter groups. Our absolute abiding principle is that we will never compromise safety and never return to the tragedies of old.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, safe standing is already working very successfully all around the world, including in Scotland. However, the Minister will be aware that there are many different forms of safe standing, even within the lower divisions in England. Can the Minister give us an absolute assurance that any new regulations that come forward will take this into account to make sure that a range of allowable options will suit the needs of clubs of all sizes and all sorts of stadia, not just those in the top flight of the game? With so many examples working so successfully, can she explain why we are still talking about the need for further pilots?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord will be aware that the Sports Grounds Safety Authority commissioned independent research into this, which is in the public domain. It published its Safe Management of Persistent Standing in Seated Areas report. As the noble Lord said, this confirmed the very positive impact this has had on spectator behaviour, particularly in relation to away fans. That is what we will be updating on in more detail in the coming weeks.

Telecommunications (Security) Bill

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 15th July 2021 Grand Committee

In terms of horizon scanning, we need resources far beyond our own. It is therefore vital that we work closely with others. As the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, said, these amendments would improve the Bill in terms of its central aims. I therefore commend the amendments to the Minister.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, for tabling these amendments and for his very generous opening remarks. He reminds us that we must remain vigilant about current and emerging threats to our telecoms networks. Rightly, he also urged the Government to communicate how we will do that in a way that makes sense to the public. Today, we are focusing on this Bill and how it is designed to protect our networks now and into the future.

As we heard, Amendment 18 calls for a body to be set up for the purposes of monitoring current and emerging threats to our telecoms sector. The amendment lists a number of committees, departments, organisations and agencies that should be represented on this body.

The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, asked: if not here, where? I will try to answer that question in my remarks.

I assure noble Lords that we already have established procedures to monitor current and emerging threats to the telecoms sector. The National Cyber Security Centre undertakes regular risk assessments of such threats, and those assessments are used to inform government policy. For example, the code of practice the Bill will allow us to issue will be informed by the National Cyber Security Centre’s assessments.

In addition, the Government already have forums in which emerging threats and new technological developments are discussed with industry. The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, asked me to give examples of a particular domestic focus. This is one of them. For example, the National Cyber Security Centre’s network security information exchange is a trusted community of security professionals from across the telecoms sector who come together on a quarterly basis to discuss openly and share information on security issues and concerns. There are also established channels for the kind of cross-government and interagency working that the noble Lord’s amendment seeks to formalise. The Government do not see that it would be necessary to establish a new body corporate, which would simply risk duplicating the work of existing forums.

The noble Lord’s amendment would also make provision for Parliament to receive annual reports on current and emerging threats from this new body. The National Cyber Security Centre already publishes guidance as and when threats develop. Furthermore, as noble Lords are aware, the Intelligence and Security Committee is able to see and scrutinise the National Cyber Security Centre’s assessments of current and emerging threats. Given that there is already this provision for parliamentary oversight, I do not consider that laying a report before Parliament annually would be necessary.

Amendment 25 would require the Government to publish a long-term telecoms security and resilience strategy, covering various topics set out in the amendment, within six months of the Bill’s Royal Assent, and would require this strategy to be laid before Parliament. The Government share the noble Lord’s desire to ensure that this country is fully prepared to overcome future challenges to the security of our telecoms networks. However, the publication of such a strategy is, we feel, unnecessary because recent government reports and announcements, publicly available, already address these topics. The noble Lord will be aware that the Bill is the result of the recommendations put forward in the UK Telecoms Supply Chain Review Report, published in July 2019. That report, along with the Government’s announcements last year, has already set out our strategy for addressing telecoms security risks, particularly relating to supply chains.

In addition, we published our 5G Supply Chain Diversification Strategy last November. This includes our strategy for collaborating with allies on future network research and development, and influencing global telecoms standards. As I will touch on when we debate Amendments 24 and 28, this work is progressing well and the Government’s response to the recent diversification taskforce report, published earlier this month, sets out the steps we are taking to deliver on our goals.

More broadly, the Government’s approach to telecoms security and resilience is informed by cross-government priorities. These include the integrated review, published in March, which committed to launching a new comprehensive cyber strategy this year. The strategy will set out how we will build up the UK’s cyber resilience, deter our adversaries and influence tomorrow’s technologies so that they are safe, secure and open.

Alongside this, a national resilience strategy will ensure that our suite of systems, infrastructure and capabilities for managing the full range of resilience risks becomes more proactive, adaptable and responsive to future threats and challenges. Work is well under way to develop these cross-cutting strategies, and we will ensure that our approach to telecoms security and resilience continues to take them into account.

I think the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, know very well that there is a tension between having a greater degree of focus in a strategy and a wider scope. We believe that we have struck the right balance in this area.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, asked about cyber deterrence. He may be aware that the Government will shortly bring forward legislation to counter state threats of the type he described. It will create new offences, tools and powers to detect, deter and disrupt hostile state activity by states targeted at the UK. He also referred, in the context of future-proofing, to the National Security Council. Among its responsibilities is examining forward-looking strategies.

The noble Baroness, Lady Northover, mentioned the role of the FCDO. Of course, she will know that the First Secretary of State provides leadership across departments to ensure that the Government’s response to cyberthreats and our ambition as a cyberpower are fulfilled.

My noble friend Lady Stroud talked about the Government being asleep at the wheel in relation to Huawei. I think that is a little harsh. The Government have always considered Huawei to pose a relatively high risk to the UK’s telecoms networks compared with other vendors. A risk mitigation strategy has been in place since Huawei began to supply equipment to UK public telecoms providers. Obviously, the Government have announced extensive advice to manage those security risks based on the work of the experts at the National Cyber Security Centre. Most recently, the Secretary of State announced advice that providers should remove all equipment made by Huawei from 5G networks by the end of 2027.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, asked about the presence of security experts on the recently announced diversification council. I can confirm that a senior official from the National Cyber Security Centre will attend to provide that expertise.

The noble Earl, Lord Erroll, asked what parliamentary scrutiny there was of Ofcom. The chief executive and other senior officials from Ofcom give regular evidence to parliamentary Select Committees, including an annual scrutiny session with the DCMS Select Committee, and it also lay its annual report and accounts before Parliament.

I hope I have managed to address most of the points raised and to reassure your Lordships that, while we recognise the very valid questions that have been asked, we believe that we have the balance right in terms of co-ordination and strategy. With that, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

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[Lord Fox (LD)]

I thank the Minister and other speakers for this debate, which is really important. The Minister was basically saying in her response, “Don’t worry, we’ve got this covered.” If the Government did indeed have it covered, I suggest that ripping out 40% of the 5G network at the cost of several billion pounds to the industry is a pretty poor cover. The point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Stroud, that it took Back- Benchers to highlight this rather than the Government was particularly apposite.

The Minister portrayed the decision to remove Huawei almost as if it was a success of the process. Will she acknowledge that these billions of pounds are growth that we will not get, that they are investment in this country that has been wasted, and that it has put the country in danger in the process? Will she further acknowledge that there might be others who are able to help in the process of avoiding a repeat of what is a huge debacle?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I tried to present the breadth and depth of approaches that the Government are taking to address this incredibly serious and complex problem. If I may borrow the word used by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, we have tried to show some agility in responding to changing circumstances. The noble Lord will be aware that there were changes to the US foreign-produced direct product rules in May 2020 which changed the risk profile of our engagement with Huawei, and we acted on that, so I do not feel that I have to apologise at this point.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for her reply and for again seeking to answer the questions. We may well have to come back to some of this, but I take the point that the Government are seeking to address current and emerging threats; I just think that this needs to be more clearly stated in the Bill. The Minister gave examples of cross-government working. We all know that there are examples of cross-government working, but the Committee is saying—I think that there was agreement across the Committee—that sometimes there is a need for a mechanism to ensure that it happens. It may be that another body will do that more effectively in the face of the threats that we face now or may face in the future—it may be that we seek to replace rather than add a body. The Government may want to consider that.

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[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I commend the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and my noble friend Lady Northover for this amendment, which I would have signed had she not done so already. We heard at Second Reading an excellent speech from the noble Lord, Lord West, explaining not only why this amendment is important but why certain figures who would normally speak in this debate are not doing so. He explained that the ISC is seeking to change its MoU. As such, he and others would not speak in this particular debate.

However, we have an analogous debate to refer to, which has already been mentioned. Those of us who are veterans of the National Security and Investment Bill have been through this already. I think the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, is the only other person in this Room who was involved in it. I certainly spent some of my life on that Bill.

We sent back to the Commons an amended version of that Bill. Your Lordships adopted an amendment not dissimilar from the one in front of the Committee today. That decision was made, as we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, because the BEIS Select Committee is not enabled to deal with the level of security information it needs to properly scrutinise the operation of BEIS for the National Security and Investment Act. There is exactly the same situation here. I gather, anecdotally, that the BEIS Committee is already hitting issues with getting the information it needs under that Act.

We also heard anecdotally on Tuesday of the debacle over the Newport Wafer Fab, where the BEIS Secretary of State has failed to use the power given to him by the National Security and Investment Act to do something around national security. The noble Baroness, Lady Stroud, is no longer in her place, but once again the ministry was forced by Back-Bench action to reconsider what it was doing. This should not be how things work. It is beginning to look like these are rhetorical points, rather than actually being usable. I hope the same fate does not befall this legislation and that it actually gets used rather than shelved. But in the same way as BEIS, DCMS will have a Select Committee that cannot access the information it needs to scrutinise the activities covered in this Bill.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, notwithstanding the stifling atmosphere of this Committee Room, managed to do a very close approximation of complete incredulity over why the Government should not listen to this fantastic advice. I can say that, having gone through the last Bill and seen how resistant the Government are to advice of this sort, this is neither an accident nor a sin of omission. This is a sin of commission. The Government are very clear that they do not want proper scrutiny of what they are doing, and if this Bill remains as it is, there will not be the scrutiny that is needed. Neutering of that scrutiny is not an accident but a deliberate act of the Government.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, for tabling this amendment, and the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, for moving it. The role and remit of the Intelligence and Security Committee, as noble Lords have remarked, have been raised a number of times in the other place and at Second Reading of this Bill, so I welcome the opportunity to clarify how appropriate oversight of the Bill’s national security powers will be provided for in the Bill and through existing mechanisms.

Amendment 22 would require the Secretary of State to provide the Intelligence and Security Committee with copies of designation notices and designated vendor directions when such notices, or parts of them, are withheld under Section 105Z11(2) or (3) in the interests of national security. It would also require the Secretary of State to provide copies of notifications of contraventions, confirmation decisions, the reasons for giving urgent enforcement directions when withheld under Section 105Z22(5), and the reasons for confirming or modifying such directions when withheld under Section 105Z23(6).

I will try to correct the suggestion made by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, and the noble Lord, Lord Fox, that the Government are trying to avoid parliamentary scrutiny on this particular point. That simply is not borne out by the way that the Bill is drafted. We are very clear about where parliamentary scrutiny should take place. I recognise the desire of your Lordships for the Intelligence and Security Committee to play a greater role in the oversight of national security decision-making across government, including in relation to this Bill. As I mentioned earlier, through the oversight of the National Cyber Security Centre, the Intelligence and Security Committee can request information around NCSC advice on, and activities relating to, high-risk vendors.

However, this amendment would extend the role of the Intelligence and Security Committee in an unprecedented way. As noble Lords are aware, the activities of the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport are not within the ISC’s remit. That committee’s remit extends to the intelligence agencies and other activities of the Government in relation to intelligence or security matters, as they are set out in its memorandum of understanding.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, asked what he called the “central question” of how this will work in practice in terms of security access. My understanding is that according to the Osmotherly rules detailing how the Government may share information with Select Committees, members of the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee are able to view and handle classified and other sensitive material, subject to agreement between the department and the chair of the committee on appropriate handling. Documents may also be shared with the chair of the DCMS Committee on Privy Council terms, subject to agreement between the committee chair and the department.

The advice of the intelligence agencies will not be the only factor that the Secretary of State will take into account when deciding what is proportionate to include in a designated vendor direction. As well as the advice of the National Cyber Security Centre, the Secretary of State will consider, among other things, the economic impact, the cost to industry and the impact on connectivity caused by the requirements in any designated vendor direction. The ISC does not have the remit to consider non-security issues such as the economic and connectivity implications of the requirements in designated vendor directions. The Digital, Culture Media and Sport Select Committee can consider those wider aspects and that is why it is the correct and appropriate body to see copies of designation notices and designated vendor directions that are not laid before Parliament. Any future changes to the ISC’s remit would be best managed through consideration of the Justice and Security Act 2013 and the associated memorandum of understanding.

For the reasons that I have set out, I am unable to accept the amendment and I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, will therefore withdraw it.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for her reply. The Government are going to have to reconsider this matter. The explanation of what can or cannot be looked at is very unclear. The purpose of the amendment is to make it clear through the legislation that the Intelligence and Security Committee would have an automatic right to look at some of the threats, rather than it being the judgment of someone, who has to consult someone else to make a decision. That is the whole point. It should not be a question of someone deciding after discussion whether the matter should go forward; there should be a requirement in the Bill that that be done.

The point that I keep making is that at security clearance level 3, hardly anyone in the country could look at this matter, but there may well be aspects of a threat to telecommunications from a state that are at that level. All that any of us is saying is that of course Parliament should not be openly told about it, but that does not mean that there should be no scrutiny by the committee set up with that express purpose, so that we have oversight and scrutiny of even the most highly classified information. It would be a great credit to our democracy if the even highest level of security threat were subject to a check, set up by Parliament.

I and the Committee are saying to the Minister that this matter needs to be reconsidered. Even the Government, in response to the debate in the other place, have said that they are going to look at the next annual report of the Intelligence and Security Committee to see whether its remit should be extended to include the DCMS Committee. The Government are therefore aware that there is a problem here and say that they will look at this issue. We are trying to horizon-scan here and are saying that this will be a problem if this proposal is not included in the Bill.

I honestly believe that the Government really are going to have to look at this. I am going to repeat that because it is so important. The Minister herself, even the Secretary of State, will not know of some of this. The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, knows how many people know, but it is very few. Yet the Intelligence and Security Committee was set up to consider this issue and we are saying that there should be measures in the Bill to deal with it.

The reason why the noble Lord, Lord Fox, and I are incredulous is that this just does not logically hold together. This is not an opinion but a fact: if the Bill goes through unamended, we in Parliament will not be able to look at the security threats that people are making decisions about. It is accepted that not everybody should be told about such things—of course not—but I doubt whether Parliament thinks that this situation is acceptable. I ask the Minister to reconsider that.

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[Lord Fox (LD)]

I thank the various noble Lords for their contributions. I will speak to Amendment 24, which bears my name, but I recommend that the noble Baroness, Lady Stroud, reads the Chancellor’s Mansion House speech, in which he calls for a nuanced relationship with China. Failing that, she could read my speech on the first group of amendments, in which I challenged how nuanced a relationship can be with a country threatening both our security and that of its own people. At the heart of the Government’s challenge is to be all things to everyone in this argument. They are doomed to fail if they try to do that.

I turn to the amendment I am supposed to be speaking to. As we discussed at Second Reading, there are essentially three strands to the diversity strategy. The first leg is supporting incumbent suppliers. I was corrected by the Minister: this refers not to domestic suppliers but suppliers we already have, presumably— although it is not explicit—with the ones we do not want having been weeded out. The second is attracting new suppliers into the UK market, and the third is accelerating open interface solutions, which I assume helps the second of those strands in particular.

There is not a strand about growing a domestic industry; some of us—I am one of them—were confused about this. It mostly seems to be about taking advantage of other countries’ businesses that we can trust—or think we can at the moment; I refer the Committee to earlier comments by the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, about today’s allies not always being tomorrow’s allies—rather than massively growing our own national capability. Bearing in mind those three legs, it would be helpful to hear from the Minister how the improvement in the domestic share of this market is planned.

In her letter to many of us on the subject of diversification, the Minister made the point that Vodafone has already attracted six new suppliers, two of which were Samsung and NEC, into the market through the open RAN deployment. I think I asked her at Second Reading when open RAN would become a significant player in telecoms delivery in this country. If she gave an answer then I am afraid I mislaid it, so can she tell us when open RAN will become a significant player or whether it is something of a sideshow? I do not mean that in a bad way; it is a recognition of where it really is in the market at the moment.

The biggest challenge I have with this is that the Government have launched a lot of strategies. They usually come with a glossy document and a picture of a smiling Secretary of State. I can confirm that this strategy is no exception. We have a very nice picture of the Secretary of State, Oliver Dowden, on page 3, but it does not come with a timeline and a delivery plan. The Government would not issue a strategy if they did not have a delivery plan, so I am sure there must be one. I think it would help us all if we understood what the delivery plan is. Perhaps the Minister could share with the Committee the timeline for the delivery of this strategy, otherwise many of us might suspect that it is something that gets only launched, not delivered. I understand that money has been put into it but, again, that does not guarantee that outcomes will be forthcoming.

This amendment has been tabled to reveal how that timeline is going and how the outcomes are being delivered. That is what it is for. It would enable the Government’s spending of taxpayers’ money on delivering this strategy to be tracked by Parliament. That seems a perfectly reasonable function for Parliament to have.

The Minister might come back and say that DCMS is being asked to lay all sorts of things before Parliament. If that is the case, I think that all of us, including me, the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, who spoke very capably on this, the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, the noble Baroness, Lady Stroud, and others are quite capable of coming up with a composite annual report that covers not just the items in Amendment 24, but those in Amendment 25 on strategy, Amendment 23 on Ofcom’s performance, and Amendment 26 on skills. Taken together, I am sure we could put together a composite annual report in the next round of discussions that would save DCMS having to make several different annual reports. I suspect that that might be a way forward and look forward to the Minister embracing this idea, because of course DCMS wants to demonstrate how it is delivering its diversification strategy.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am grateful to all noble Lords for their contributions to this short debate and consideration of the Government’s ambitious diversification strategy. The amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, raises the important issue of diversification, which I know is of great interest to your Lordships, as it was to Members in the other place. Diversification is a key part of the Government’s broader approach to ensuring that our critical networks are healthy and resilient. That is why the Government set out their 5G diversification strategy last autumn, and we are fully committed to ensuring that this strategy comes to fruition.

Our long-term vision for the telecoms supply market is one where, first, network supply chains are disaggregated, providing network operators more choice and flexibility; secondly, open interfaces that promote interoperability are the default; thirdly, the global supply chain for components is distributed across regions, creating resilience and flexibility; fourthly, standards are set transparently and independently, promoting quality, innovation, security and interoperability; and finally, security and resilience is a priority and a key consideration in network design and operation. However, the Bill focuses on setting clear security standards for our public networks and services. As the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, pointed out, although diversification is designed to enhance security and resilience, not all diversification activity is relevant to the security and resilience of our networks. That is why we believe the amendment would not be appropriate.

The Government have already made progress since the publication of our strategy, including the creation of the Telecoms Diversification Taskforce, which set out its recommendations in the spring. Work is already under way to implement several of those recommendations. Research and development was highlighted by the task force as a key area of focus in order to promote open-interface technologies that will establish flexibility and interchangeability in the market. As raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, and the noble Lord, Lord Fox, it will also allow a range of new smaller suppliers to compete in a more diverse marketplace.

That is why the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport was delighted to announce the launch of the future radio access network competition on Friday 2 July. Through this, we will invest up to £30 million in open radio access network research and development projects across the UK to address barriers to high-performance open deployments. This competition is part of a wider programme of government initiatives, which includes the SmartRAN Open Network Inter- operability Centre—more friendlily known as SONIC Labs—a facility for testing interoperability and integration of open networking solutions, which opened on 24 June. A number of leading telecoms suppliers are already working together through this facility.

We welcome recent announcements from operators including Airspan, Mavenir, NEC and Vodafone to introduce open radio access networks into their infrastructure. This demonstrates that industry is working alongside us, here in the UK, to drive forward the change needed in the sector. We continue to work with mobile operators, suppliers and users on a number of other important enablers for diversification; for example, we are developing a road map for the long-term use and provision of legacy network services, including 2G and 3G. Alongside this, the Government have led efforts to engage with some of our closest international partners, including the Five Eyes, to build international consensus on this important issue.

We are also working to deliver on UK issues in standard- setting bodies, and working with industry, academia and international partners to ensure that standards are set in a way that aligns with our overall objectives. Ensuring that standards are truly open and interoperable will drive market growth and diversification. Through the UK’s G7 presidency, we took the first step in discussing the importance of secure and diverse supply chains among like-minded partners and the foundational role that telecommunications infrastructure, such as 5G, plays.

The noble Baroness, Lady Merron, asked how we were planning to spend the initial £250 million, which we announced to kick off work to deliver our key priorities. These priorities have been informed by the recommendations of the Telecoms Diversification Taskforce and include: establishing a state-of-the-art UK telecoms lab; exploring commercial incentives for new suppliers; launching test beds and trials for new technologies such as open RAN; investing in an R&D ecosystem; and seeking to lead a global coalition of like-minded partners on an international approach to diversification. In response to questions from the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Fox, about the growth of UK businesses, we have been clear that we are focused on investing in the UK and in UK businesses, but do not think that a UK-only solution is a wise or realistic option.

We are working closely with operators and suppliers to develop targeted measures that address the needs of industry to deliver our long-term vision for the market. We responded to the task force’s findings in July and outlined our next steps and the use of that initial investment. If the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, has not seen the government response, I am sure he would find it interesting. It also sets out our plans to create a diversification advisory council, which will meet quarterly. I hope that responds to his question.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Fox (LD)]

Before I comment on that excellent speech from the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, I want to return to the answer that the Minister gave on the Newport Wafer Fab issue, which proves the point that we were making on the need for the ISC to be involved. Regarding the ISC issue, the Government furnished themselves with the National Security and Investment Act, which was supposed to deal with issues such as this. However, the Prime Minister has chosen to refer it back not to the people running that unit but to the National Security Adviser, which proves the point that someone with access to national security information is needed to make decisions of this nature, rather than an organisation that does not have access to the information. It absolutely proves the point that our amendment on the ISC is completely appropriate, just as it was appropriate for the BEIS analogue of what is happening here.

The noble Baroness, Lady Merron, made an excellent speech and I am not going to attempt to adorn it either with my normal flippancy or with detail. There is just one issue that I wish to raise regarding Simon Blagden. Are there any outstanding legal liabilities from his time at Fujitsu? In other words, has his activity been fully exonerated or is there potential legal recourse? Other than that, I echo the point that perception of these issues is as important as reality. If the Government continue to operate in a black-box way, everybody will assume that things are going on that they cannot see and that should not be happening. It is therefore in the Government’s interests to be transparent about how that person in particular was appointed and how the advisory council will operate.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, for tabling the amendment and for giving me an opportunity to provide an update on the work of the Diversification Taskforce and the new diversification advisory council.

The Government recently announced the council, building on the work of the Diversification Taskforce, chaired by my noble friend Lord Livingston of Parkhead. I should like to take this opportunity to offer my thanks to him and the taskforce members for volunteering their valuable time and knowledge to their excellent review. Their recommendations and expertise will remain crucial to helping us bring greater resilience and competition to our future networks as the taskforce now transitions to the new diversification advisory council.

The Government recognise that diversification is a broad and complex issue relating to matters of security and resilience, technology and geopolitics. It is for this reason that we sought the advice of the experts appointed to the diversification task force. Many of the task force members will continue to provide advice as part of the new advisory council. In appointing the membership of the advisory council, the Government have followed all standard processes. The Government have ensured that the council comprises experts from both industry and academia across a wide range of subject matters, including security, of course.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Fox, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Alton, for tabling this amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Fox, has set out why they believe this definition of a public electronic communications network is needed. I also appreciated his reference to the importance of consumers, who, after all, are core in all our discussions.

It is important to hear from the Minister whether she believes that this definition is limiting for security purposes and what impact it would have. Perhaps she can advise on whether she feels that anything is missing which should be in there. Would this definition inhibit the future-proofing ability of the Bill? I look forward to hearing from the Minister.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

This amendment seeks to clarify the definition of a public electronic communications network contained within Section 151 of the Communications Act 2003. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Fox, for moving it. It aims to do this by including specific examples of networks and systems covered by that definition.

In response to the noble Lord’s first question, three of the suggested examples in the amendment are already covered by the current definition of public electronic communications network, to the extent that they are electronic communications networks

“provided wholly or mainly for the purpose of making electronic communications services available to members of the public”.

These three examples are: landline communication systems; mobile data, audio and video networks; and satellite-delivered networks.

However, as the noble Lord explained, the amendment also refers to “digital surveillance networks”. I understand that the noble Lord is referring principally to CCTV and other similar technologies of the kind used by law enforcement and local authorities for specific surveillance purposes. These types of technologies have been raised by a number of noble Lords in previous debates, including the noble Lords, Lord Alton and Lord Fox. Such closed networks do not fall within the definition of a public electronic communications network as set out in Section 151 of the Communications Act. That definition refers to an electronic communications network that is provided

“wholly or mainly for the purpose of making electronic communications services available to members of the public”.

I emphasise “wholly or mainly”, because the noble Lord gave examples of where services might be provided which could reach a member of the public, but not “wholly or mainly”.

The powers in the Bill are intended to create a stronger regulatory and legislative framework to protect against the security threats to our public electronic communications networks and services, such as those provided by companies such as BT and Vodafone. Public networks are those most widely used by businesses and the public and it is right that the Bill should focus on the protection of those networks. Furthermore, any change to the definition of public electronic communications networks to include CCTV and other similar networks to which the noble Lord referred would affect other sections of the Communications Act beyond those relating to security. That is because the current definition of a public electronic communications network is used across Chapter 1 of Part 2 of the Act, and not only in Sections 105A to 105D, which this Bill replaces.

The consequences of such a change would be wide-ranging. For example, Section 127 creates a criminal offence of improper use of public electronic communications networks, as defined by Section 151. If the definition changed, the scope of those caught by that offence would also change. It would also affect other legislation that makes reference to the Act’s definition, such as the Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations 2003 or the Insolvency Act 1986. Any such change to the definition would therefore have substantial unintended impacts for providers of digital surveillance networks and for many other entities, including Ofcom, of course.

The noble Lord also asked how the security of digital surveillance networks could be assured. There is of course already legislation and extensive guidance in place to assure security and prevent the abuse of information gathered by CCTV and surveillance camera networks. As noble Lords will be aware, the Information Commissioner’s Office is the UK’s independent regulator for data protection and is responsible for providing advice and guidance on compliance with the UK’s data protection laws. All organisations in the UK that process personal information must comply with the requirements of the UK General Data Protection Regulation and the Data Protection Act 2018. The Information Commissioner’s Office has issued a specific data protection code that provides recommendations on the use of CCTV systems to help organisations comply with the Data Protection Act.

The Information Commissioner’s Office’s code and the Data Protection Act ensure that any personal data gathered via CCTV and similar networks is kept confidential and subject to the highest protections, including secure encryption of data. Where closed networks, such as CCTV and other similar surveillance technology, are used by public bodies or within critical national infrastructure, there are specific arrangements in place. Lead government departments, advisory partners —including the National Cyber Security Centre—and regulators work with infrastructure owners and operators to manage and mitigate the risk of security issues. There are, therefore, already adequate measures in place regarding safe deployment of CCTV and other similar surveillance technologies within the UK. Indeed, we are strengthening the actions we can take in this area.

Charities Bill [HL]

Baroness Barran Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 14th July 2021 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Barran]

That the Bill be now read a second time.

Considered in Second Reading Committee on 7 July.

National Lottery

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Wednesday 14th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to review the objectives of the National Lottery.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, since its launch in 1994, the National Lottery has been an unprecedented success, raising over £43 billion for community, arts, heritage and sports projects across the UK. The primary objective of the National Lottery is to raise money for good causes and we have no plans to change that.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that reply, but I hope that she may be prepared to reflect. The National Lottery has not been quite so successful in recent years; life has changed and we should have new objectives. The big change has been the problem with the nation’s health. We have the worst number in Europe of deaths from Covid. I believe that the Government should review the objectives of the National Lottery and see whether a greater focus on health for the nation should be considered. One of the lottery’s great benefits is that it reaches the hard-to-reach groups in society. As many play the National Lottery with scratch cards and so on, the Government should consider how that link might be used to incentivise and reward players for moves to better and healthier eating and drinking and exercise rather than simply focusing on money rewards, as it does at the moment. Let us put the real health of the nation at the heart of this objective rather than simply money.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord is of course right that the pandemic has highlighted the importance of the nation’s health. He will be aware that health is one of the objectives of the National Lottery Community Fund, but, more broadly, this Government have an ambitious target for reducing, in particular, obesity. The lottery must provide additionality in its funding, not replace core government funding.

[The Lord Bishop of Chichester]

My Lords, will the Minister undertake to review the abolition of the HLF grant for places of worship, which has resulted in congregations without financial resources finding it much harder to compete for maintenance and development funding? The effect of abolition has been profoundly demoralising for small rural communities and areas of deprivation in coastal towns, such as Hastings, where the church building can be a source of local pride and community cohesion but is in danger of falling into disrepair and representing a sense of abandonment by local and national government.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My Lords, I am happy to take the right reverend Prelate’s point back to colleagues in the department, but I hope that he will recognise the value of the work that the National Lottery Heritage Fund does.

[Lord Smith of Hindhead (Con)]

My Lords, with reference to my interests as set out in the register, if a person plays the six draw-based National Lottery games each week, excluding scratch cards and online games, they spend £21. With the current fuss being made about affordability in gambling, is it right that the state-franchised lottery is encouraging people to “dream big” and gamble over £1,000 a year?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am not sure that I would agree with my noble friend and call affordability a fuss—I think that for once I may have a number of your Lordships on my side. Affordability is important but, as my noble friend knows, we see the lowest level of problem gambling in the lottery games. As I said in response to the earlier question, the primary purpose of the lottery is to provide money for good causes and 30% of the revenue raised has done that since its inception.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, in the last major debate that we had on the National Lottery, which was three years ago, I made the suggestion that more could be done to inform the public of the immense contribution of the National Lottery to good causes at local and regional levels, for instance at physical points of sale. That suggestion was not taken up, but if one of the effects of the past year has been an increased awareness of local community and community pride, perhaps this is something that might now be looked at.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Earl makes a very interesting point. I know that all the lottery distributors pride themselves on their ability to reach deeply into communities and to make those local connections.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the National Lottery is a significant success and enjoys huge public support. Research shows that there is also public support for other national lotteries, such as the Postcode Lottery. Will their needs for greater parity of prize money and reach be reconsidered so that more funds can be made available for good causes?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord will be aware that we are planning to carry out a review of society lotteries, to which he refers. It will be an early check based on evidence to see whether the increased limits have had the intended impact and that the limits are enabling the sector to increase the proportion that goes to good causes.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD) [V]]

My Lords, research shows that replacing lottery duty with gross profit tax could, over a 10-year period, lead to more than £6 billion extra for good causes and the Treasury. The Minister just reminded us that returns to society are a key objective, so can she explain why the Government have rejected the recommendation from your Lordships’ Gambling Industry Committee? Will she publish the Government’s own analysis of this proposal?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government reviewed all the evidence available and, based on that, concluded that to protect income for good causes and tax revenue for the Exchequer—which, obviously, is also spent in the public interest—the current model of taxation should remain in place.

[Lord Flight (Con)]

My Lords, while I accept the good intentions of the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, I cannot agree with his proposal. I support the National Lottery’s existing remit to raise funds for community, arts, heritage and sports projects. Recently, 40% of lottery funding was for health, education, environmental and charitable causes. I estimate that more than £1 billion was awarded over two years to respond to Covid-19—the largest contribution made to pandemic relief beyond that made by government. This seems to illustrate the scope for substantial National Lottery expenditure on health. What is the average annual expenditure on health by the lottery in normal times and what percentage of total lottery spending is accountable for health?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I echo my noble friend’s reflection that the lottery distributors played an important part in responding to the pandemic and getting funding to organisations all around the country. There is no specific figure on health, but he is right that the National Lottery Community Fund has that as one of its four key objectives. More broadly, the work of all the lottery distributors could certainly be argued to be making a difference to the nation’s mental health and, particularly in the case of Sport England, to our physical health as well.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, while the National Lottery has funded many celebrated projects of national and international significance, including London 2012, the V&A in Dundee and the Millennium Stadium in Cardiff, it is also welcome that many National Lottery grants are for £10,000 or less and directed towards small grass-roots projects. What plans are there to increase the numbers of these small grants? Can the Minister give some indication of the support given to community projects where there is a lack of know-how and infrastructure to make a successful application?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

It is obviously up to the National Lottery to decide those splits between larger and smaller grants, but I know from my recent conversations, particularly with the community fund, that the emphasis on “People in the Lead”, to use its language, is absolutely central to its top three priority approaches. My understanding is that it has a great focus on supporting groups that might otherwise find it difficult to apply for funding.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for saying that there will not be that radical a change to the lottery, but can we look at making sure that sport is seen as something that actively supports the health budget? Can the Department of Health let the sporting world know what type of activity would give it the best return?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

This Government have been committed to supporting both elite and—in the case of the noble Lord’s remarks—grass-roots and community sport. I would be amazed if my colleagues in the Department of Health and Social Care were not aware of that too.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.

Racism in Sport

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Tuesday 13th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light of the recent racist abuse directed towards members of the England football team, what action they are taking to tackle racism in sport.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, I take this opportunity to thank the England team, not only for what they achieved during the European Cup, but the manner in which they achieved it. It was a magnificent performance, which raised the spirits of the whole nation. What followed in terms of racist abuse is wholly unacceptable. The Government have been working with the football community to address this problem. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State has held talks with a number of footballers and other sports people to hear first-hand the appalling abuse suffered. The Online Safety Bill will address the racist abuse of footballers online, including anonymous abuse.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

In praising quite rightly, the brilliant leadership of Gareth Southgate and the inspirational England team, will the Minister join me in calling out those who dismissed taking the knee against racism as gesture politics or those who refused to condemn fans booing the players? As the Minister says, we are all disgusted and condemn the appalling racist abuse of Bukayo Saka, Jadon Sancho and Marcus Rashford. But people are also furious—they are demanding action now from the Government. How are the Government going to force social media companies to act now? Promises have been made before, yet we are still waiting. Why are we not seeing more prosecutions? This activity is illegal offline, so it must be illegal online. We would not stand for it on the street.

Has the Minister had discussions with government colleagues, the police, the CPS and others demanding that these racists—whatever we want to call them—are prosecuted and do not hide behind anonymity? Will the Minister agree with me that the Government urgently need to set out a series of practical steps outlining action before the next England game? Will she join me in saying that that will happen? Action, not words, is the call from the British public.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for the focus on action, because that is exactly where the Government are looking. In response to the various points he raised, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has already met with the policing Minister to review what further steps can be taken, including any additional protection for the players that the noble Lord referred to. In terms of leadership on this issue, the Prime Minister has been absolutely clear that people should feel free to show their respect and condemn racism in whatever way they choose. In terms of next steps, I have already talked about the Online Safety Bill. We have also recently launched safety by design guidance and made a substantial investment in safetech.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

While thanking the Minister for her assurances, can she tell us now exactly what the duties of the online platforms which carried the abuse will be under the new Bill? What sanctions will they face if they do not fulfil these duties?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Bill will create a regulatory framework which applies to all platforms whatever their size in relation to illegal online abuse and, particularly for the largest platforms, to harmful but legal content. We fully expect that racism and racist abuse will be a priority category. In terms of sanctions, there are fines of up to 10% of global turnover, blocking of sites and, indeed, potentially criminal sanctions for the leadership of those businesses.

[Lord Woolley of Woodford (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I too thank the England team and its manager Gareth Southgate for providing so much joy for millions during the Euro football championship. Does the Minister agree with me that not only must the deluge of racist abuse towards black players be condemned and perpetrators brought to justice but it should not be fuelled in the first place by politicians, some of whom, if we are honest, in effect encouraged fans to boo the national team—a brilliant team that took a collective stand in taking the knee against the very racism that the black players were subject to after Sunday’s defeat?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I absolutely agree with the noble Lord about the appalling deluge of abuse that the players suffered. I have already, in response to the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, set out exactly what the Prime Minister has said on this matter. The other thing that is very clear is that there is a yawning gap between what social media companies say they do on their sites and what all our experiences are—including, particularly in this case, the players affected.

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

My Lords, these are not football supporters. They are sick. They are scum. They are cowards because they hide behind the anonymity of social media, which clearly have been incapable of putting their own house in order. I support the Government in their efforts to bring social media to their senses. We have friends in the social media world. Could our colleagues in this House, who know him so well—the Liberal Democrats, for instance—draw to the attention of Nick Clegg the difference between his previous principles and his current position? Surely he should be encouraged to take a lead and do so much more in fighting this sort of racism and bring us back to the position where we can get on with the beauty of the English game.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My noble friend is absolutely right. Social media companies follow every aspect of our lives and I think we are all surprised that they could not have anticipated better some of the events that have occurred in the last 48 hours. The Online Safety Bill will specifically address issues around anonymity.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I welcome and endorse the tribute paid by the Minister and my noble friend Lord Coaker to Gareth Southgate and the England team. They are genuine role models in whom we can all take a great sense of pride. The Minister will recall that she answered an Oral Question from me on this subject on 23 March. She said:

“The police already have a range of legal powers to identify individuals who attempt to use anonymity to escape sanctions for online abuse.”


May I ask her what those sanctions are and what progress has been made in making football a specific priority in the hate crime unit looking at online discrimination against protected characteristics, as specified under the Equality Act 2010? She spoke about imposing a duty of care on social media companies with

“clear systems of user redress and strong enforcement powers from Ofcom.”—[Official Report, 23/3/21; col. 724)

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am happy to write to the noble Lord and address any other points that he wishes to make. The Investigatory Powers Act allows police to acquire communications data such as an email address and the location of the device from which illegal anonymous abuse is sent, which can be used as evidence in court. We hope that this will act as a clear deterrent in future.

[Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, like my grandsons and my granddaughter, I loved every England game. For me, football did come home to unify a divided nation, which stood with the profoundly thoughtful leadership of Gareth Southgate and Harry Kane and with magnificent players like Shaw, Grealish, Saka, Rashford, Sancho, Mount, and the man of many matches, Raheem Sterling.

Given their and our message that there is no place in our sports or institutions for racism and Islamophobia, with hindsight, does the Prime Minister regret his divisive and disrespectful comments? Will the Minister say what additional action the PM and the Government are taking to eradicate institutionalised structural racism and Islamophobia and its devastating impact in all aspects of our conduct and policy? They should take a leaf out of the England team’s efforts—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

My Lords, I am sorry, but can we please keep questions short? It is extremely disrespectful to the rest of the House.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I can only repeat to the noble Baroness that the Government have been absolutely clear that racism is unacceptable online or offline and that we respect people’s choice to condemn racism in whichever way they feel is right.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, may I ask the Government to consider legislation to the express effect that racism in sport should be an aggravated crime, thereby allowing greater powers in sentencing?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord will be aware that racism is already an aggravating factor in many crimes. I am happy to take his suggestion back to the department.

[Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a director of Carlisle United Football Club, where we are all simply appalled by the racist abuse. The Times today suggests in a leader that this is not solely a British problem. Therefore, will Her Majesty’s Government raise it at the international forum to see whether we can help solve it? Domestically, when discussing this problem with the football authorities, will they include a relatively new body, Fair Game, which is composed largely of lower league clubs and will offer a different perspective?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government are determined to do everything within their power to stamp out the awful racism that we saw. Obviously, it is an extremely long-standing problem and one that extends across the world. We will use every opportunity to address it.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

Surely the Government can see that when senior politicians, such as our Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for the Home Office, make dog-whistle comments and do not slap down racism, the Cabinet and Government themselves have a problem.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I do not accept what the noble Baroness says. I have quoted twice now what the Prime Minister has said, which has been crystal clear on this subject. The Home Secretary has also been clear that there is no place for racism in this country, and she knows very well from her own experience.

[Lord Triesman (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a former chairman of the Football Association. I am delighted to hear what is going to be done about social media; it is going to have to be enforced. I share the view of the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, that the people displaying their hooliganism and racism are scum; they have nothing to do with England or its football team.

As chairman of the FA I sought legislation that would enable us to ban for life—one strike and they are out—anybody convicted of any of these crimes from every football ground in the United Kingdom: no excuses, no second chances. Would the Government support that?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government are well aware that football banning orders can have a great effect on those implicated. This is one thing we are looking at.

[Lord Mann (Non-Afl)]

I proposed six weeks ago to the Secretary of State that the Football Spectators Act 1989 be amended to include online hatred. Can the Government do that in advance of the online harms Bill? A simple amendment to that Act would give far greater powers for dealing with this problem.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord is very familiar with the approach we are taking to address online harms, which we hope will be comprehensive and effective. I will take his suggestion back to the department, but I cannot reassure him today at the Dispatch Box whether we can progress it.

[Baroness Blower (Lab)]

My Lords, I recognise this is outwith the Minister’s brief, but does she agree that we must now include specific anti-racist teaching in the curriculum for initial teacher education and in the national curriculum, given that racism in sport reflects racism in society at large?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right; it is outwith my brief. What I will say is that the Government take incredibly seriously the racist behaviour we have seen in this case but also, sadly, in others. I agree that thinking about how children grow up and their expectations is really important.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, it is intolerable that the slightest excuse or whim, such as the missing of a penalty, can result in the raining down of racial abuse on social media against young sportsmen representing their country at the highest level. Does the Minister agree that this clearly illustrates the importance of removing anonymity for those who peddle racial and other hate speech on such platforms?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord will be aware of some of the issues around anonymity. It is important that platforms—and this will be required in the Bill—have a functionality that does not allow anonymous users, or those using pseudonyms or multiple different names, to perpetrate their hateful abuse online.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

My Lords, all supplementary questions have been asked.

Telecommunications (Security) Bill

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 13th July 2021 Grand Committee

I know the Minister a little, but, from her reputation, I know she will take on board the points being made here. I hope she understands that we are all trying to improve and strengthen the legislation, which all of us broadly support.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

I thank all noble Lords for these amendments, which seek to strengthen the resilience of our telecoms networks by putting a new monitoring requirement on providers in relation to vendors in other jurisdictions, adding to the list of matters to which a requirement in a designated vendor direction may refer, and requiring the Secretary of State to review decisions taken by Five Eyes partners to ban vendors on security grounds.

We recognise the aim of having a comprehensive approach to telecoms security that includes the provider and government. The Bill follows this approach. A number of your Lordships said that I could be advised that the amendments are not unnecessary, but one issue the amendments raise is that of clarity of responsibility in the Bill. We believe genuinely that these amendments would blur some of that clarity.

The Bill as drafted is clear that it is the responsibility of government, not public communications providers, to set security duties and to designate vendors who pose a national security risk. In doing so, the Government, via the National Cyber Security Centre and other agencies, will monitor companies globally, including, of course, in the Five Eyes countries. It is then up to the providers to implement the security duties placed upon them and to comply with any designated vendor directions issued to them.

Amendment 1 in particular risks blurring these lines of responsibility and requiring telecoms providers to spend disproportionate resources on monitoring vendors internationally. This amendment seeks to place a new duty on public telecoms providers to review vendors of goods or services to those providers which are prohibited from other jurisdictions on security grounds, and to review the reasons for the prohibition. This would require public telecoms providers to monitor the policies and regulations of all other jurisdictions to understand whether those jurisdictions had banned certain companies from operating. This would be an onerous, disproportionate duty to place on industry.

Furthermore, in some cases, it may be impossible for telecoms providers to comply with the duty. The amendment states that telecoms providers must review the reasons for a vendor’s prohibition from a jurisdiction. As noble Lords will be aware, many jurisdictions have opaque decision-making processes, where it may be difficult, if not impossible, for telecoms providers to review the reasons for the prohibition of certain companies. Moreover, new Section 105A, which is inserted by Clause 1, places a strengthened overarching security duty on public telecoms providers. This duty is centred on an appropriately future-proofed definition of security compromises. Clause 1 therefore already ensures that telecoms providers undertake appropriate risk management to guard against any relevant threats to network security. In the light of this, I do not consider that this amendment is either proportionate or necessary, given the burden that it would place on telecoms providers and the duties already contained in the Bill.

Amendment 20 seeks to clarify that a requirement in a designated vendor direction may make provision by reference to the sourcing of goods, services and equipment from a specified country, or from sources connected with a specified country. While it is important that we protect our networks from the threats posed by hostile state actors, I do not consider this amendment to be necessary. As currently drafted, the Bill already allows for requirements to be included with provisions relating to the “source” of goods, services and facilities supplied by a designated vendor. I would consider that countries, and sources connected to countries, would already be captured by this wording.

Further, the list of matters that the noble Lord seeks to amend is explicitly non-exhaustive. The Bill is clear that the provisions of a requirement may refer to matters other than those listed in the Bill. It is therefore already possible for a requirement in a direction to refer to the country from which goods, services and facilities are sourced, if the Secretary of State considers that such a requirement is necessary in the interests of national security and proportionate to the aim that is sought to be achieved. As such, this amendment would not achieve anything that is not already possible under the provisions of the Bill as drafted.

Amendment 27 seeks to add a new section to the Communications Act 2003. This amendment would require the Secretary of State to review decisions taken by Five Eyes partners to ban telecoms vendors on security grounds and consider whether similar action is required in the UK.

A number of Members of the Committee, including the noble Lords, Lord Alton and Lord Coaker, and the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, stressed the importance of co-operation. She asked whether this was happening anyway. The short answer is that it is. The UK is already committed to a close partnership, and engages regularly with the Five Eyes. The UK’s telecom networks face similar challenges to networks in other countries.

The Government have engaged with partner countries on the approaches to high-risk vendors throughout the drafting of the Bill and will continue to do so once it is passed. I reassure the Committee that we are in regular contact not only with the Five Eyes nations but with other key partner nations—for example, Japan, France and Germany, to name but a few. Therefore, a requirement to review their decisions to ban a high-risk vendor and consider whether to issue a designated vendor direction in the UK would be unnecessary.

The noble Baroness, Lady Northover, asked more broadly how we worked with other countries in relation to national security. We have always maintained that each country needs to implement the mitigations that are right for their national circumstances. Of course in practice, Governments are adopting similar measures to address the risks, and adapting them to meet their own national circumstances. For example, the Netherlands, Germany and Australia have all either adopted or are planning to adopt security measures comparable to those set out in the UK’s draft secondary legislation, which the Bill would allow us to implement.

In July 2020, following advice from the National Cyber Security Centre, the National Security Council considered the impact of US sanctions in relation to Huawei. It considered that further action was needed, as the new US restrictions made oversight of Huawei products significantly more challenging and potentially impossible. That is another example of how the UK already regularly reviews security advice and requirements in response to international considerations.

Some of the issues raised were closely linked to the Bill, while others were slightly less so. The noble Lord, Lord Fox, asked how Ofcom and the NCSC would work together in practice. To formalise the relationship between the two organisations, they are in the process of developing a memorandum of understanding and have published a statement, available on the Ofcom website, that sets out the three key principles that they will follow. They are: first, that the National Cyber Security Centre will provide expert technical cybersecurity advice to Ofcom to support the implementation of the new telecoms security framework; secondly, that they will exchange information where necessary and permitted by law; and, thirdly, that the National Cyber Security Centre will continue to provide incident management support during serious cybersecurity incidents, both to telecoms operators and to Ofcom as needed.

The noble Earl, Lord Erroll, suggested that our broadband rollout programme had stalled—forgive me if I misheard—but I do not accept that. We as a Government remain committed to delivering nationwide gigabit and mobile connectivity as soon as possible. We have put in place £5 billion of funding to roll out next-generation gigabit broadband and have already connected more than 1 million hard-to-reach homes and businesses. Despite the pandemic, the expansion has been extraordinary, with 40% of premises now having access to gigabit-capable broadband, which will rise to 60% by the end of this year.

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[Lord Fox (LD)]

I congratulate the Minister on introducing the Barran scale of nuance, which will no doubt become a classic in future. She did not address the issue of componentry, if you follow my drift. It seems to me, in analysis, that what tipped the balance in the sense of Huawei was the absence of American-made chips. Were that not to have happened, the NCSC would not have recommended the widescale removal that we have seen. That appears to be the implication. There seems to be an element of component monitoring going on, although in this case the monitoring appears to have been done more by the Americans than by the United Kingdom. It comes back to that fundamental point: at what level is the Bill going to be applied? Will it be applied on the overall capability of the system? In other words, is it a systems capability issue? Is it a subsystem operational outcome view, the individual pieces that go to make those subsystems, or the software that drives the overall system? How will the Bill actually be put into process?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I may need to write to the noble Lord about the technical details he has set out. I think for the approach to be effective it needs to incorporate all elements of that. An overall system cannot be a capable system if the subsystem is not. There needs to be coherence across the equipment that is supplied and our understanding of how it operates in practice and the component parts to inform the judgment about its security or not. I am happy to follow up in writing if he is agreeable.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

I thank all noble Lords who have participated in the debate and the Minister for her replies. I thought that the intervention just now by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, was important. It drives at one of the issues that we have debated today in the context of Nexperia and what is happening to a British company that has been acquired by a Chinese company through its Dutch affiliate. It is about computer chips. It is about semiconductors. It is about our ability to be able to control what goes into the technology that the Bill is very much about. That is not an on-the-side question; it is a very important central question and I look forward to seeing the response that the Minister gives to the noble Lord, Lord Fox, when she looks at it further.

I turn now to some of the contributions made today. The noble Baroness, Lady Northover, in a typically powerful and thoughtful intervention, invited us to delve more deeply. That is what we have been doing during this afternoon’s proceedings. She emphasised the importance of countries working together. She regretted, with sadness, that we have been forced to make some of these decisions about our own individual ability to acquire intelligence as a result of our decision to leave the European Union.

I thought it was interesting that, earlier today, the European Commission issued new guidance to combat forced labour in supply chains. It rather puts our laggardly and perfunctory efforts to shame. The guidance provides concrete, practical advice on how to identify, mitigate and address the risks. This issue has been referred to and the noble Baroness has said that she is going to write to us further on modern-day slavery and supply chains. High Representative/Vice-President Josep Borell says that the guidance

“will help EU companies to ensure their activities do not contribute to forced labour practices in any sector, region or country.”

It paves the way for future legislation which will have enforcement mechanisms and should introduce a mandatory due diligence duty, requiring European Union companies to identify, prevent, mitigate and account for sustainability impacts in their operations and supply chains.

Our amendments today would gather that kind of information. I simply do not accept that it is impossible for companies, in partnership with government—a point made by the noble Baroness in opposition to these amendments was that this would place too much responsibility on companies—or countries such as our own to collect this information. Like other noble Lords around the table, I have no staff. The information I gave to the Committee today is publicly available and, with a little bit of research, it can be obtained without too much difficulty. It is absurd to suggest that it is beyond the ability of companies or countries to collect information and share knowledge. The example from the European Union underlines what the noble Baroness said to us today.

The noble Lord, Lord Naseby, was, as always, asking all the right questions. From our many years together in another place, as well as here, I am always happy to stand with the noble Lord, not least because of his experience in many parts of the world. It is important to ensure that our people who are in post in many of our embassies are given the ability to ask these searching questions and to ensure that the information comes back to us, to prevent many of the expensive mistakes that have been made around Huawei, and which have been referred to during the debate, happening all over again.

My noble friend Lord Erroll was right to say that there are human rights abuses in many countries. Like him, I become indignant about some of those abuses; I do not argue, though, that we should no longer trade with those countries. I always prefer that we trade with countries that are on a trajectory to reform, that are law-abiding and that believe in human rights and democracy, but I accept that it would be impossible to take out of supply chains any country that carries out any kind of human rights violation.

However, there are certain markers that we can look to. One of them is our legal duty under the 1948 convention on the crime of genocide. This is not a word to be used lightly. The word “genocide” came into our vocabulary thanks to a Polish Jewish lawyer, Raphael Lemkin, who had seen over 40 of his own family murdered in the Holocaust. During the proceedings on the telecoms infrastructure Bill last year, I gave examples from that period of how companies such as Philips had their own forced labour in the camps where people were dying. I gave the example of Corrie ten Boom, a Dutch woman who had given refuge to escaping Jewish people trying to flee the Holocaust. She and her sister were arrested and sent to work in that factory; her sister died there. Corrie ten Boom wrote a deeply moving book called The Hiding Place. That is the comparison I seek to draw.

It is not just me. In April this year, the House of Commons said that what is taking place in Xinjiang is genocide—it is only the second time that it has ever made such a declaration, so this is of a different order. Where there is genocide, we, as signatories to an international treaty—the 1948 convention on the crime of genocide—have a legal obligation to predict the signs of genocide, prevent it from happening, protect those affected and prosecute those responsible. I accept my noble friend’s argument—we are not going to stop trading tomorrow with Gulf states or whomever it may be who is doing fairly odious things—but the crime of genocide is surely in a different league.

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[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

This is a really important discussion. I do not want to speak for too long but the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, was right to say that the Bill is about security and not just “anything”. None of us on the Committee wants to compromise the nation’s security or compromise the ability of our military personnel to conduct necessary operations. However, sometimes in legislation words really matter—they are the law of the land. That is why scrutiny of legislation in Committee like this is so important, word by word and line by line, otherwise—and I will have a series of questions for the Minister on this—down the line in one, two, three or five years, something will happen and everybody will go, “How was the word ‘anything’ included?” The unintended consequence of legislation is something that we need to consider, or people will ask how something happened—how that word was allowed.

With that in mind, it is important that the Minister explains to the Committee how this definition is arrived at. The starting point would be to ask her to explain the differences between having the word “anything” and having the phrase “security issue”. Can she give examples of how the Bill would be weakened by having that term rather than “anything”, and what “anything” means—apart from saying that it means “anything”? What does it actually mean, given that the Bill is supposed to be about security issues, as the noble Earl said?

The Government argue that the duty on providers is appropriate and proportionate to ensure that the effects of compromise are limited and to act to remedy the impacts. I understand why Ministers are keen to keep the definition wide, but on its own it is not good enough. For example, can the Minister explain whether there are any thresholds to what amounts to a security compromise, or is it “anything”, and what does that mean to an individual who might stray into territory that they are not sure about? How was the Bill’s definition arrived at? Who came up with it and what advice did they receive? Were alternatives suggested to it, what did security experts say to the Minister was necessary, and were there dissenting voices?

In seeking clarification, I wonder whether the Minister can explain why the definition does not include, as I understand it, the presence of supply chain components, as the noble Lord, Lord Fox, mentioned on the earlier group of amendments, if they represent a security threat. Maybe it does—but could the Minister clarify that? We need to know that to understand the diversification of the supply chain and how effectively or not it is proceeding. It is important to consider the components of the supply chain, particularly when identifying where they are a threat to our national security. As I see it, that is not included in Clause 1, but perhaps the Minister can tell me that it is and that I have not read the clause correctly. If so, where is it?

I go back to where I started. These amendments are important in testing how the Government have arrived at this use of “anything”. I know it sounds like semantics —what does “anything” mean?—but the point made by the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, is crucial. The Bill is a security Bill. That being so, why does “anything” appear and why is “security issue” not the appropriate way to describe this? Why is it not included in the Bill? It is necessary for the Committee to understand the Government’s thinking on this for us to consider whether we need to bring back this matter on Report.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My Lords, the Committee will recall that the UK Telecoms Supply Chain Review Report in July 2019 found that telecoms providers lack incentives to apply security best practice. This Bill is our response to its recommendations and takes forward the Government’s commitment in the report to introduce a new security framework, including new legal duties and requirements, to ensure that telecoms providers operate secure and resilient networks and services.

I thank the noble Lords, Lord Fox and Lord Clement-Jones, for tabling these amendments to Clause 1. Before I address them directly, I hope that it will be helpful if I set out some brief context for the clause as it appears in the Bill and try to address the challenges posed by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker.

Clause 1 inserts a new Section 105A into the Communications Act 2003. New Section 105A places a duty on public telecoms providers, first, to identify the risks of security compromises; secondly, to reduce the risks of compromises occurring; and, thirdly, to prepare for the occurrence of security compromises. To support the duty, new Section 105A creates a new definition of “security compromise”. The definition is purposefully broad and includes anything that compromises the availability, performance or functionality of a network or service, or that compromises the confidentiality of the signals conveyed by it. I thank my noble friend Lord Naseby for his support for this approach.

I am genuinely slightly puzzled by the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, about what is included and excluded, because Clause 1 goes into great detail—which I shall not read out now, but I know the noble Lord has looked at it. Not only do we define what is included in “compromise” but we are explicit about what is excluded. This comprehensive approach will help ensure that telecoms providers protect their networks and services properly in the future. It creates a new duty on providers to take steps to reduce the risk of incidents and attacks seen globally in recent years.

As we have heard, the amendments tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Fox and Lord Clement-Jones, would narrow the definition of a security compromise. As both noble Lords noted, this was also a matter that the Constitution Committee recommended the House consider in its recent report. As I have said, the definition is designed to support a long-term approach to security. It aims to be focused enough to address risks that are specific to telecoms networks. At the same time, it is broad enough to ensure the Bill is future-proof and has flexibility to enable us to address new and evolving threats.

I appreciate that the noble Lords are seeking to ensure that legal obligations on telecoms providers are targeted and appropriate to specific risks, but it is important to remember that the framework within the Bill is designed to do exactly that. Certainly, we are not aiming, in the words of the noble Earl, to bash suppliers over the head. Rather, the broad definition in the Bill helps future-proof the legislation, whereas the specific security measures which narrow that focus will be set out in secondary legislation. I tried to get my head around the thought experiment from the noble Lord, Lord Fox, but I got stuck at the idea of trying to fit inside a petri dish, which would definitely be impossible.

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[Lord Fox (LD)]

The Minister brought up the review, which was very clear that there are huge potential market failures within the security and resilience telecoms market, the reason being that security is not valued by the networks. It is other things, such as network connectivity and price, which are of maximum importance to those networks—things that might come under the word “anything”, for example.

Let us be clear about the four reasons given by the review that security is undervalued by networks: insufficient clarity on cyber standards and practices; insufficient incentives to internalise the costs and benefits of security; lack of commercial drivers, because consumers of telecoms services do not tend to place a high value on security; and the complexity of delivering, monitoring and enforcing contractual arrangements in relation to security. All four of those issues, which I think are driving the purpose of this Bill, involve the word “security”. Far from these amendments watering down the intent of the Bill, the Minister is watering it down herself by including the word “anything” and ignoring the word “security”. I do not expect her to accept these amendments now, but I would like the department to go away and think about this very carefully, because a catch-all Bill catches nothing.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I hear the noble Lord’s concerns. We will of course take back his comments and reflect on them again. However, I know that officials working on this Bill have considered these points in enormous detail and would be happy to meet the noble Lord and discuss them, if that would be helpful. We believe that our framework does not water down but balances future-proofing with the precision and specificity that the noble Lord seeks. I hope we can follow up on that in a separate meeting.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I see a slight chink of light, perhaps, that may be opened by opened by a meeting with the Minister on this subject—because she will appreciate that none of the amendments tabled to the Bill, which we think is important, has been put down lightly, and definition is crucial.

I was somewhat baffled by the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, flying in his jet—I was thinking of perhaps pressing the ejector button, but I thought better of it. The idea that there is an analogy between flying a jet and what we are talking about here was a bit baffling. The only way that I could think of the analogy for a planned outage, which is exactly what the providers are worried about being subject to under this definition of “security compromise”, is where a jet does a planned manoeuvre and everyone scrambles and treats it as an incident—so I cannot see that his analogy holds at all.

I much prefer and give thanks for the contributions of the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and my noble friend Lord Fox, who, in doubling down on the points raised about the purposes of the Bill, illustrated exactly why we seek to have a much more precise definition. The big problem is that the flexibility demanded by the Government is effectively at businesses’ cost and causes uncertainty. That is the worry about the way that the Bill is currently drafted.

The Minister talked about future-proofing and doing it more precisely, in a sense, by setting out the duties by secondary legislation—but, of course, there are great concerns about the way that the secondary legislation is to be agreed and the codes of practice. So I suppose that, if I were going to ask for a quid pro quo, if there is to be a loose definition of “security compromise”, there must be a very tight way of agreeing the codes of practice and the secondary legislation—but I wonder whether the Minister will actually agree to that trade-off, as we go through the afternoon. I would like to have all of the amendments that we have tabled for today.

I really think that, when the Minister said that this would “undermine the whole approach”, it is good to have it in her script, but that is absolutely not the case. The last thing that we are doing by trying to tighten this definition is to undermine the whole approach; we are trying to create certainty for the providers so that, when they plan outages and there are other planned events, they are not caught by a sidewind when trying to comply with the terms of the Bill. This is a practical issue.

I understand what the Minister says about resilience and, to some degree, that is the case, but there is clearly a great deal of uncertainty surrounding the providers’ interpretation of the Bill, as it currently stands—and they are the ones that will be subject to this. As I said—without wishing to repeat myself too much—the Government’s impact assessment itself makes it very clear that the costs of this exercise, of having to comply with the Bill, are extremely uncertain at this point, and there is quite a lot of concern about that.

I am sure that, if we have a meeting with the Minister in due course, we will be able to persuade her to accept these amendments, and I look forward to it. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 2.

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[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I speak to Amendment 11 in my name and welcome Amendments 7 and 12 in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Fox and Lord Clement-Jones. I was interested that the noble Lord, Lord Fox, referred to a chorus of agreement, which I certainly heard ringing out, expressing concerns about the role that Parliament should have in scrutinising on codes of practice that this Bill currently does not provide for. To me, the codes remind us that the Bill can provide us only with something of a framework, and for many areas there is a wait for the details to be filled in later. As the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, said, the devil, as always, is in the detail.

Clause 3 allows the Secretary of State to issue new telecom security codes of practice that will set out to providers the details of specific security measures that they should take. As we have heard referred to, the impact assessment states that these codes are the way in which the DCMS seeks to demonstrate what good security practices look like. However, I note that Ministers are proposing only to demonstrate but not actually to secure good practice, which I am sure is the real intent—and it would be very helpful if, through this debate, we could get to that place.

I am interested also to note and draw the Minister’s attention to the fact that the Government have said that these codes will be based on National Cyber Security Centre best practice security guidance. The Government have said that they will consult publicly, including with Ofcom and the industry, as we read in the Minister’s letter following Second Reading. That public consultation will be on implementation and revision. However, it strikes me as very strange that the National Cyber Security Centre is not a statutory consultee; can the Minister say why it is not?

I particularly make the point that, as the codes of practice will be admissible in legal proceedings, they have to be drafted accurately and we have to ensure that security input and expertise is fed into them. The National Cyber Security Centre, which is described as a bridge between industry and government and is, indeed, an organisation of the Government, would seem to be a body that should be, in a statutory sense, invited to make the input and offer its expertise, along with other departments and agencies. After all, we can see, when reading about the centre, that its whole reason for being is that it provides widespread support for the most critical organisations in the United Kingdom as well as the general public, and they are absolutely key when incidents, regrettably, occur. We are trying to address those incidents in respect of this Bill.

As we have heard from all noble Lords who spoke in this section of the debate today, the input needs to come from Parliament, which is why I tabled Amendment 11. As the Bill is drafted, the current reading is that a code of practice must be published and laid before Parliament, but there is no scrutiny procedure. I put it to the Minister that if codes have legal weight, why is Parliament being denied the chance to scrutinise them? We seem to have a complete mismatch there. I was taken by the words in the Delegated Powers Committee report, mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, in his introduction, which stated that this way of being was “unacceptable” and called for the negative procedure for codes. That is what Amendment 11 does. Can the Minister address specifically the words of that committee report? I refer her to paragraph 27, which says:

“In our view, the Department’s reasons are unconvincing … the fact that codes of practice would be produced after consultation with interested parties cannot be a reason for denying Parliament any scrutiny role; and … the Department appears not to have recognised the significance of the statutory effects of the codes of practice”,


as has been highlighted today. I therefore hope that the Minister will both comment on the report and seek to make what is a very important and significant change in this regard.

I will pick up on one additional point. The impact assessment also says that the codes of practice will have a tiering system for different-sized operators. The initial code will apply to tier 1, which serves the majority of businesses of critical importance to the United Kingdom. This will also apply to tier 2 medium-sized operators but with lighter oversight by Ofcom and longer timetables. Can the Minister offer a draft list of the operators in tiers 1 and 2, and can it be shared with noble Lords? I would also be interested to know whether the Minister has any concerns that tier 2 operators will somehow be worse at compliance. If she has those concerns, what support will be provided to small and medium-sized enterprises? I look forward to her reply.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My Lords, I have heard with interest the contributions of your Lordships regarding the parliamentary oversight of the secondary legislation and codes of practice associated with the Bill. I will try not to disrupt the harmony that broke out so agreeably.

Amendment 7 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, would apply the affirmative procedure to regulations made under new Section 105B in Clause 1. It would require secondary legislation to be laid in Parliament in draft and to be subject to a debate and a vote in both Houses. Both Amendment 11 tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, and Amendment 12 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, would require a statutory instrument to be laid in Parliament for the Secretary of State to issue or revise the codes of practice, under the negative or affirmative procedure respectively.

I will first address Amendment 7 and the procedure for the regulations. The Bill currently provides for the statutory instrument containing the regulations to be laid using the negative procedure. This is the standard procedure for instruments under Section 402 of the Communications Act. The only delegated powers in the Bill currently subject to the affirmative procedure are Henry VIII powers to retrospectively amend penalty amounts set out in the primary legislation.

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[Lord Fox (LD)]

Sorry, I have not quite finished.

I would call Amendment 15 a “good manners” amendment. If Ofcom possesses information that the network provider does not, it simply calls for that network to be brought into the loop before the rest of us are. That seems good manners to me—you do not necessarily have to legislate for that, but these days it always helps. I have now finished.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, and the noble Lords, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Fox, for tabling these amendments to Clause 4 and for their considered remarks. As we have heard, these amendments speak to reporting requirements placed on industry in the event of a significant risk of a security compromise and the powers bestowed on Ofcom in the event of a compromise or the risk thereof.

Amendments 13 and 14 amend new Section 105J. As the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, summarised, new Section 105J is designed to give users of telecoms networks and services relevant information when there is a significant risk of a security compromise, including the steps that they should take to prevent such a compromise adversely affecting them. Giving users this information will help ensure that, where possible, they can take swift action to protect themselves. It will also contribute to greater awareness of security issues, supporting users to make more informed choices about their telecoms provider.

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[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My Lords, I am sorry, as ever, to disappoint the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones. With regard to his first point, of course the relationship with providers is important, which is why we have worked so closely with industry throughout the preparation of the Bill. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, said so eloquently, the relationship with users is also very important; it is that balance that we are seeking to strike. I am sorry if the noble Lord found my remarks grudging or negative; there was a lot of thought behind them.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been a healthy debate. I thank all noble Lords who have contributed on the various amendments. I certainly noted from her response to Amendment 13 in my name that the Minister shares my understanding of the issues for consumers. The debate has shone a light on the fact that it is not possible to simply put one set of interests above another. I felt in the course of the debate that it has been understood that, while fixed time periods may create an unintended consequence, as the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, said, they do ensure that things are not swept under the carpet. That is really where the amendment was seeking to probe.

I appreciate the point made that, while timescale is at the discretion of telecoms providers, there are certain requirements on them. I still have a sense of nervousness; I hope that, as we proceed with this legislation, the telecoms providers will understand the importance of acknowledging and responding to the very real concerns, interests and threats to consumers when they consider what the words “reasonable and proportionate”, as well as the words “timely manner”, mean. With that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

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[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I have been very interested to hear the arguments put forward by the noble Lords, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Fox, and the noble Earl, Lord Erroll. As we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, in his opening remarks, concern about oversight is driving this section of the debate. As we know, Clause 13 ensures that when deciding an appeal against certain security-related decisions made by Ofcom, the tribunal is to apply judicial review principles without taking any special account of the merits of the case.

I understand that this does not apply to appeals against Ofcom’s enforcement decisions and that the Government have said that this ensures that it is clear that the tribunal is able to adapt its approach as necessary to ensure compatibility with Article 6, the right to a fair trial. My questions to the Minister are about the legal advice that the Government have received on this clause. What legal advice has been received? Is this external legal advice as well as internal legal advice?

The clause states that

“the Tribunal is to apply those principles without taking any special account of the merits of the case.”

Can the Minister explain what “special account” is expected to mean?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I thank the noble Lords, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Fox, for tabling this amendment to Clause 13. I am aware that the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, has spoken extensively on the standards of appeal in this House. As the noble Lord remarked, this matter was also raised in the Constitution Committee’s recent report, where it asked for further clarification about the reasoning for the changes made by this clause. I will attempt to address this point today and answer the questions from the noble Lord, Lord Fox, about what we are worried about.

Charities Bill [HL]

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Wednesday 7th July 2021 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Barran]

That the Committee do consider the Bill.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, this Bill improves the efficiency of the charity sector by implementing the majority of the recommendations from the Law Commission’s Technical Issues in Charity Law report. The Bill simplifies a number of processes, promotes consistency and reduces overcomplicated regulation. Rather than be burdened by overly bureaucratic processes, charities will be able to focus their resources on the public good. The Law Commission and the Charity Commission are in full support of the Bill and it has been welcomed by the sector.

During the pandemic, the charity sector has received several billion pounds of support from the Government, including a £750 million package of support for charities, social enterprises and the voluntary sector, as well as benefiting from the cross-economy measures that the Government have introduced. We are deeply grateful to the thousands of charities and social enterprises, large and small, that have provided practical and emotional support to people in every corner of this country. It is now time for us to address regulatory change that will continue to make a difference to charities in the longer term.

In 2017, the Law Commission published its Technical Issues in Charity Law report, taking inspiration from the review of the Charities Act in 2012 produced by my noble friend Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, and after extensive consultation with the charity sector and charity law stakeholders. The Law Commission gained valuable insights from an array of consultation events and meetings involving representatives from across the sector. This close engagement has led to various iterations of the proposals, and the Bill reflects this extensive input and scrutiny.

This is a highly technical Bill. However, the changes that it brings will, together, give charities more flexibility, time and resources to fulfil their charitable purposes. While we must ensure that the appropriate safeguards are in place to protect the public’s trust in the sector, we also have a duty to shape legislation to work for those delivering such vital services, helping those in need and working to improve lives. I believe that the Bill strikes a sensible balance between protecting charities’ assets and avoiding unnecessary expense and bureaucracy. The Bill makes a number of amendments to the Charities Act 2011. I will now explain the changes that the Bill will bring, grouping the clauses into themes for clarity.

Clauses 1 to 5 of the Bill will simplify current processes for amending governing documents and provide greater flexibility. The Bill will align these amendment mechanisms as much as possible across the different legal forms that charities can take.

Clauses 6 and 7 make it easier to use funds from a failed fundraising appeal for other similar purposes, alleviating the need for charities to expend time and resources to search for donors of small donations.

Clauses 9 to 14 concern the use of permanent endowment. The Bill will open up more opportunities for trustees to exercise flexibility in making decisions that are in the best interests of their charity, allowing them to utilise their permanent endowment better and make social investments, while protecting the enduring nature of such funds. The Bill creates a clearer definition of permanent endowment and a new power for trustees to borrow from their permanent endowment, and it streamlines the existing power available to trustees to release those funds.

Clauses 15 and 16 concern ex gratia payments, which are payments that trustees want to make morally but cannot make legally. The Bill allows charities to make relatively small payments without seeking Charity Commission authorisation. It also reframes the test so that trustees, if they want to, can delegate the decision to make these payments to the charity’s staff.

Concerning land transactions, Clauses 17 to 24 will remove ineffective and disproportionate statutory requirements around disposals of land by charities, create a simple process for ensuring compliance with statutory requirements and pave the way for secondary legislation to broaden the pool of advisers at trustees’ disposal.

Regarding inappropriate charity names, Clauses 25 to 28 expand the Charity Commission’s powers in respect of misleading, offensive or very similar charity names to remove anomalies and prevent an inappropriate name appearing on the register of charities.

Charities could not function without the vital role of trustees. In Clauses 29 to 31, the Bill allows charities to source goods from trustees, subject to safeguards, removing a gap in the current law. It also enables the Charity Commission, in limited circumstances, to authorise trustees to be paid for specific work that they have carried out for the benefit of the charity.

In relation to incorporations and mergers, Clauses 32 to 35 save administrative costs by ensuring that legacies in wills can be transferred to a merged charity and by automatically giving trust corporation status to corporate charities in their capacity as trustees of charitable trusts.

On charity tribunal costs, Clause 36 provides protection for trustees to avoid charities being discouraged from pursuing litigation because of the risk of having to pay the costs of proceedings personally.

The Bill contains further provisions to modernise language and to rationalise the Charities Act 2011.

All benefits I have described have been carefully balanced against the need for proportionate regulatory safeguards. We have worked closely with the Charity Commission, which will benefit from the removal and reform of unnecessarily lengthy or complex processes.

Although not a provision in the Bill, the Law Commission’s 2017 report recommended that the Government periodically review all financial thresholds in the Charities Act 2011 with a view to increasing them, by secondary legislation, in line with inflation. The Government have accepted this recommendation and agree that such a review should take place at least every 10 years and, subject to resources, we will aim to undertake a review of the financial thresholds in 2022. I can confirm that thresholds in relation to permanent endowment and failed fundraising appeals will be included in the review.

The Bill will have a positive impact on all charities, large and small, with the greatest benefits felt by small charities, for which administrative burdens and legal and professional costs are likely to be most prohibitive and disproportionate. Other than financial savings, clarity in the law will help trustees to act with confidence in their charity’s interests. Removing unnecessary layers of regulation and administrative burdens enables charities to function more effectively. In turn, we anticipate public trust to flow from charities working unhindered and able to focus fully on their charitable mission.

In closing, the Bill plays a key role in our efforts to support the charity sector. Through the valuable work of the Law Commission, those who work in charity law every day have shone a spotlight on the particular processes that drain their resources away and distract from their charitable purposes. In providing clarity and consistency in the legal framework, charities can be confident that we are here to make their paths clearer and simpler. We continue to be immensely grateful for all their work.

I hope that the Bill receives strong support from your Lordships, and I look forward to your contributions in this debate. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their valuable contributions today and, in particular, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, for having ploughed through the Law Commission report and all associated documentation. I had naively hoped I might be able to get through all your Lordships’ points in my closing speech, but I feel quite a long letter coming on. I will write to your Lordships about anything I cannot cover in the next 20 minutes.

My noble friend Lord Hodgson, and the noble Lords, Lord Ponsonby and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, all highlighted the importance of effective implementation and the need, in the words of the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, to “sort out the rules” and make sure they are clear. This is a really valuable point. We will publish an implementation plan before the Bill completes its passage and aim to prioritise the implementation of provisions that will most benefit the sector. There will be need for new or updated guidance from the Charity Commission, which will need to change some of its systems and processes to support the new measures. The Charity Commission recognises the importance of clear and straightforward guidance for trustees, and I commend the new five-minute guides for trustees to any of your Lordships who have not seen them. They have proved extremely popular in the last year.

The Law Commission’s recommendations relating to expanding the range of advisers qualified to advise charities on land transactions and the matters to be reported on in such advice will require secondary legislation subject to the negative procedure, which DCMS will take forward in 2022. Similarly, the requirement to review various financial thresholds in the Charities Act 2011, with the view to increase them in line with inflation, will also be taken forward by the department in 2022, also via regulations subject to the negative procedure.

I will deal next with the recommendations from the Law Commission that the Government did not accept, starting with the one raised by my noble friends Lord Hodgson and Lady Rawlings, the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, and others in relation to the role of the Attorney-General in references to the charity tribunal. I understand that my noble friend Lord Hodgson is unhappy that the Government did not accept this recommendation. However, the Attorney-General has an important and valued role as protector of charities, and it would be wrong to change this as a result of a single complex case, as cited in the case of the Royal Albert Hall. To put this in context: references to the tribunal are rare; there have only been two since it was set up in 2009.

My noble friend Lord Naseby, the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, and my noble friend Lord Hodgson also referred to recommendation 40, which suggests that

“it should be possible to obtain authorisation to pursue ‘charity proceedings’ … from either the court or the Charity Commission in circumstances where”

there may be a conflict of interest on behalf of the Charity Commission. The existing arrangements protect charity assets by preventing charity funds being wasted on litigation that is without merit and ensure that disputes are dealt with in the appropriate forum. The Charity Commission is concerned that allowing applicants to seek authorisation from the court directly would significantly weaken these protections because the court would not be expressly obliged to consider whether the dispute could be resolved by the commission.

In the small number of cases where a conflict arises, it should be dealt with in a more proportionate manner that does not risk losing the protections discussed above. For example, the Charity Commission could institute robust information barriers and ensure that the case officers and legal advisers who consider the Section 115 application are not in any way involved in the substantive claim.

I welcome my noble friend Lady Fraser of Craigmaddie and all her expertise. I look forward to picking her brains and discussing many of the issues in this area. She and the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, talked about the territorial extent of the Bill. In particular, the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, asked about the extent of Clause 24 and Schedule 1. Clause 24 makes amendments to, and repeals sections of, the Universities and College Estates Act 1925, which applies to named institutions in England and has UK-wide extent. Schedule 1 makes the changes necessary to remove redundant references to that Act from other legislation. Some of the provisions that are amended by Schedule 1 also extend to Scotland or to the UK.

I turn to permanent endowments, which were raised by the noble Viscount, Lord Chandos, and a number of your Lordships. The reforms to permanent endowment in the Bill maintain the core principle of such an endowment: that it is intended to be preserved in the long term. However, the reforms aim to give trustees the flexibility to achieve that aim by looking across the portfolio as a whole, as I explained in my opening remarks. The noble Viscount questioned how this would work in practice; I think he probed the example given in the Explanatory Notes of 50% of a charity’s endowment being put into a social investment where there would be an anticipated loss.

There are a number of ways that this will work in practice. First, it is worth being clear that trustees can decide not to use the power if it is not appropriate for them. Secondly, they can review the distribution ratio in their grant-making if they feel that the overall return from the portfolio might be reduced in financial terms but that the social impact would be enhanced in line with their mission. They might also be able to offset modest losses by maintaining an existing investment policy or, potentially, take on higher risk in the portfolio. I know that your Lordships are aware that charitable foundations will take varying degrees of risk with their assets. I accept that one would have to have a very conservative existing investment policy for the 50% example to work out in real life without having to take on significant additional risk.

The noble Viscount asked why this provision was included in the Bill. It was at the request of the Association of Charitable Foundations. He also asked whether the Charity Commission would issue guidance that would include limits on the concentration of risk. The commission will consider the factors that trustees will need to have regard to in relation to their investments in this area.

The noble Baroness, Lady Goudie, asked about borrowing from a permanent endowment. Where charities borrow from their permanent endowment, they will have to report on their borrowing in accordance with their obligations under the statement of recommended practice. The Bill also includes provisions requiring the trustees to seek directions from the Charity Commission if they face difficulties repaying any borrowing. The noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, also raised this.

My noble friend Lord Naseby asked whether there should be a fixed percentage that could be borrowed from a permanent endowment. I can confirm that the percentage is set out clearly in the Bill. Trustees can borrow up to 25% of the value of the fund, subject to a maximum repayment period of 20 years.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, asked how these provisions would be monitored. He also asked about provisions relating to failed fundraising appeals. The department and the Charity Commission will do that monitoring. There is flexibility in the Bill to make changes by secondary legislation to financial thresholds to address any concerns.

Moving on from permanent endowments, the noble Baroness, Lady Goudie, asked about commercial fundraising partners. Several protections are already in place where charities engage with external commercial fundraising partners. They are designed to ensure transparency and were last updated in 2016.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, asked about responsible investing. I can confirm that the Bill will have no impact on the Charity Commission’s guidance. It has been concerned with understanding how best to help charities invest responsibly. The consultation results are expected to be published later this summer. The commission is clear that trustees of all charities are free to decide whether to adopt responsible investment practices and trustees should have confidence that they can, under the current law, invest in a particular manner where they choose to do so.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, asked about responsible investing and the role of the regulator in relation to net-zero obligations. Climate change is obviously a factor that trustees may take into consideration when investing. The law currently gives trustees broad discretion in this decision-making, but when trustees make decisions about responsible investing or any form of investing they need to balance the immediate and the longer-term needs of beneficiaries. The noble Baroness will be aware of things such as the UN principles for responsible investment, which have been adopted by many charitable foundations. They are creating quite a lot of information and helpful examples for trustees.

My noble friend Lady Fraser asked for examples relating to Clause 6. The Bill requires trustees to identify the donor, as my noble friend explained, which could be a single person or a group of people. There are cases in law where multiple people are treated as one person—for example, a husband and wife can together be a single tenant under a lease. The Bill also requires the donation to be identified, and whether that includes or excludes fees will depend on the individual circumstances of the case. There is also flexibility to decide what steps should be taken to trace donors, so that could include additional steps to track down donors of large gifts. The requirement is “reasonable” steps, and that needs to be agreed with the Charity Commission.

The noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, made a good point about the need for checks and balances, particularly for fundraising appeals. However, the current law requires charities to contact donors to offer to return their donation. This can sometimes be disproportionate to the size of the individual donations. I hope she agrees that this change protects donors’ wishes while reducing administrative burdens.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, asked for an example of how the ex gratia elements in the Bill would work in practice. For example, it could be that a testator has left money to a charity in their will and gave their solicitor instructions to leave some of the money to a family member instead, but died before the will was changed. Legally, the charity could and must take the money, but morally it might wish to make a payment to the family member.

The noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, and the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, asked about sufficient resources and powers for the Charity Commission. Parliament strengthened the commission’s powers in the Charities (Protection and Social Investment) Act 2016. We published our review of that Act in March last year, which concluded that the powers were being used proportionately and effectively. The Charity Commission received additional funding in 2018 and in its 2019 and 2020 spending review settlements to reflect its increased caseload.

My noble friend Lady Rawlings, the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, and I think the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, agreed with these principles about the importance of transparency. My noble friend Lady Rawlings also made important remarks about levels of executive remuneration. If I may, I will deal with those first. We recognise that executive remuneration in charities remains a public concern. The Government’s position is that charities should be transparent about executive remuneration so that members of the public can decide whether they want to support a charity. Currently, registered charities, apart from the very smallest, are legally required to provide details of the number of staff in pay bands over £60,000 in their annual return. This is now available on the Charity Commission’s register of charities, which is also available online. Some charities go further and publish full details of executive remuneration as a matter of good practice, following advice from the NCVO.

My noble friend raised issues about overheads and administration costs. I think some of the wider issues around transparency relate to the fact that we use “charity” to cover organisations made up only of volunteers with an income of just a few thousand pounds—or maybe even a few hundred pounds—a year, and we use the same term for charities that spend hundreds of millions of pounds a year and are, for example, important delivery partners to government and local government. In some ways it is unhelpful that we do that.

However, I say to my noble friend and the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, that some of the requirements for administration costs relate to requirements put on charities by their funders. I hold my hand up and put central and local government in that in terms of requirements for accountability and regulation to relation to safeguarding, but I take the points made by both noble Baronesses.

There were a number of other points, which I may need to cover in writing. The noble Lord, Lord Bhatia, asked whether I agreed that charities led by people from black and other minority communities are weak. I think he is right that many of those organisations have historically struggled to access funding. As part of the community match challenge, which my department did with a number of philanthropists and foundations, charities led by people of colour and other minority communities were prioritised in a number of funding streams. We are looking forward to hearing how that worked in practice.

My noble friends Lord Hodgson and Lady Rawlings and the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, asked me to clarify whether we would be returning to some issues in Committee. I remind your Lordships that, as a Law Commission Bill and with agreement from the usual channels because of its uncontroversial nature, the Bill follows the Special Public Bill Committee procedure. Amendments can therefore be proposed but the Government would resist any amendment that is not directly related to implementing the Law Commission’s recommendations. I genuinely welcome debate on issues covered in the Bill and any other issues that noble Lords wish to raise, and I would be delighted to meet any noble Lord separately to discuss issues which are outside the scope of the Law Commission’s recommendations.

As ever, I am out of time. In closing, I reiterate the purpose of the Bill: that the time and money spent by charities to unpick unduly burdensome and arbitrary processes should instead be channelled into their valuable work. We have a duty to shape legislation to work for those delivering such vital work, especially in unprecedented times when charities have been working tirelessly to help those in need. Many noble Lords have rightly celebrated the role that charities have played during the pandemic, and I echo their sentiments. I look forward to further detailed discussion on the Bill and the important changes it will bring that are much anticipated by the charities sector.

Motion agreed.

Covid-19: Broadband

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Monday 5th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Barran) (Con)]

My Lords, the Covid-19 crisis has shown the integral role digital connectivity plays in our lives. Thanks to the Government, 97% of the UK can now access superfast broadband and over 40% of premises can access gigabit-capable networks—up from 18% at the start of the pandemic. We also recognise the importance of affordable broadband. That is why we have worked with BT, Virgin Media and others to ensure that they offer social tariffs for households in receipt of universal credit and other means-tested benefits.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I note the Minister’s reply, but data poverty and digital exclusion, as the Good Things Foundation and ParentZone have shown, is widespread. Research from Citizens Advice suggests:

“2.5 million people are behind on their broadband bills, with 700,000 of these falling into the red during Covid”.


The existing variation in broadband deals across the market leads to confusion and low take-up among those who need support the most. Will the Government commit to requiring all providers to offer an affordable social tariff for low-income families, as recommended by the Lords Covid-19 Select Committee?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government are working in different areas to address affordability, and I am sure that the noble Lord has seen the recent Ofcom report on this issue. Some 99% of households can access an affordable tariff, but the take-up of that is much lower than we would hope, and Ofcom has recommended more proactive marketing of those tariffs.

[Lord Knight of Weymouth (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the pandemic has accelerated the embedded use of broadband for work, learning and leisure, and yet 9 million people are still on the wrong side of the digital divide. It is estimated that 3% of schoolchildren were prevented from accessing learning during lockdowns. Many of these people live in social housing. What efforts are being made to ensure that all registered social landlords include broadband access in the rent and that such an element is then included in housing benefit?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The issues relating to being on the wrong side of the digital divide, as the noble Lord described it, are more complex than simply the tariff or how rent might be set up: they include digital skills and confidence, on which this Government are working very actively, as set out in our tech-savvy nation report.

[Lord Ravensdale (CB)]

My Lords, regions like the Midlands have both a strong regional partnership in place, focused on digital connectivity, and gaps in national digital rollout, which are stifling the economy. Will the Government prioritise region-wide action to accelerate digital connectivity, and will they work with the Midlands Engine to deliver on levelling up digital for the region—its local authorities, businesses and communities?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I hope that the noble Lord acknowledges the huge progress that has been made in the rollout. We are working closely with local authorities and pan-regional stakeholders, such as the Midlands Engine. The West Midlands is an absolute beacon in the area of 5G test beds and trials.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, would my noble friend agree that the Government need to investigate and promote all connectivity technologies—fibre as well as 5G, 6G, open RAN and low-earth orbit satellites? Would she confirm that it cannot be the case that those not currently able to access superfast fibre also find themselves unable to access 5G—because these connectivity technologies will enable the economy that we need, the society that we want and the digital inclusion that everyone has a right to rely on?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

My noble friend is absolutely right, and we are investigating all the areas that he alluded to, particularly for the last 100,000 people who will not currently be reached through either the commercial rollout or our Project Gigabit plans.

[Lord Patel (CB) [V]]

My Lords, the issue with children from deprived backgrounds was not just that they could not get access to broadband but that they did not have the equipment. What plans do the Government have to make both the equipment and the broadband availability free of charge to deprived households?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

During the pandemic, schools have been able to request free mobile data uplifts for disadvantaged families, and those will remain in place until the end of this month. Over 1.5 million laptops and tablets have been delivered to schools, trusts, local authorities and further education providers, and the Government are investing over £400 million to support access to remote education and online social care services.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, if media reports are to be believed, the Government seem likely to extend their advice for people to work from home beyond 19 July. We agree that progress has been made in improving access to, and the affordability of, broadband in the recent past, but too many people still find their productivity compromised by variable speeds, temporary outages and other reliability issues. For the self-employed and freelancers, this acts as a serious inhibition to their business development. If home or hybrid working is to continue, what steps are the Government and regulators taking to ensure that services are up to scratch and to enable these businesses to grow? Can the Government back, and give a guarantee on, the further development of social tariffs?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

There are two sides to the coin that the noble Lord has mentioned: of course he is absolutely right that self-employed people need access to the best-quality broadband, but, equally, the ability to work from home opens business opportunities in parts of the country that might not otherwise have experienced them. I mentioned the increase in coverage from 18% of the country at the beginning of the pandemic to over 40% today—it will be 60% by year end.

[Baroness Wheatcroft (CB) [V]]

The noble Baroness said herself that the take-up of social tariffs was low. Does she think that the Government should indulge in an advertising campaign to promote the use of these social tariffs, where they are applicable? Having listened to those who mentioned—and having already been aware of—the importance of children having access, could the noble Baroness tell the House how many households have had their broadband stopped because of a failure to pay? How many of those households included school-age children?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

On social tariffs, I repeat what I said earlier: Ofcom is absolutely clear that the providers of those tariffs need to proactively market them. However, government is working and meeting with them regularly and encouraging them to do so. Figures are available for the number of households that have been cut off—it is an extremely low number—but I am not aware that it includes details on children. I will write to the noble Baroness with the detail, if it exists.

[Lord Hain (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, could the Government fund local authorities to establish high-quality broadband hubs with work stations in each community for those citizens, whether school pupils, students or people working from home, who have either terrible or no online access—or, equally importantly, very cramped living conditions—making it impossible to study or work properly? Otherwise, the gaping digital divide, revealed by evidence to the Lords Covid-19 Committee, of which I am a member, will massively accelerate existing inequalities.

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government have an incredibly ambitious and currently very successful programme of rolling out broadband across the country. The quickest way to get everyone, particularly those on the wrong side of the digital divide, included is for that programme to progress—both the commercial aspects and the £5 billion that we are putting into Project Gigabit to make sure that rural communities also have good access.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Non-Afl) [V]]

My Lords, for the avoidance of doubt, could the Minister outline what plans the Government have to monitor the effectiveness of social tariffs offered by broadband providers?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

It is within the role of Ofcom to monitor that effectiveness.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

The Minister said earlier that 100,000 homes would miss out on broadband access under the current plans. Does this mean that they will not even achieve the USO of 10 megabits per second, let alone the real target of a gigabit-enabled economy? Can she say when we will reach 100% coverage?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I will clarify what I meant to say, and I apologise if I was not clear. The commercial rollout, Project Gigabit and the rural voucher and other schemes that we have announced will reach all but 0.3% of the country, which is about 100,000 homes. We are not intending that those homes should not get coverage, but that is where some of the technological innovations that my noble friend Lord Holmes of Richmond referred to will come in.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed. We now come to the fourth Oral Question.

Birmingham Commonwealth Games (Compensation for Enforcement Action) Regulations 2021

Baroness Barran Excerpts

Monday 5th July 2021 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Barran]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 17 and 19 May be approved.

Considered in Grand Committee on 30 June.

Motions agreed.