House of Lords
Oaths and Affirmations
Domestic Solar Panels
(2 months, 2 weeks ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Earl Russell
To ask His Majesty’s Government how they plan to increase the number of homes fitted with solar panels.
The Minister of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath) (Lab)
My Lords, rooftop solar on homes and buildings will play an important role in the drive for clean power. Details about how the Government will increase deployments of domestic solar panels will be set out in the forthcoming solar road map.
Earl Russell (LD)
My Lords, Labour promised a rooftop solar revolution, which I welcome, tripling solar power by 2030. It now appears that this commitment has not survived contact with the housebuilding industry. Are this Government still requiring that, as part of the future homes standards, all new homes will have to have solar panels installed, as promised? If not, why? Further, France is maintaining solar panel installations on all parking lots greater than 80 spaces, generating power for 8 million homes. What consideration has been given to doing the same here?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, we are not moving away at all from the idea of a solar revolution. The noble Earl will know that, in its scenarios for 2030, the National Energy System Operator—NESO—reckons that we will need 47 gigawatts by that time. We are committed to publishing a clean power action plan, which will embrace solar plans, very soon. The Solar Taskforce is there to provide clear advice and actions on how we will take that forward. What the noble Earl said about French car parks was interesting. There has been an easing up of development rights in this country in relation to that. On the 1.5 million homes that we pledged to build in the lifetime of this Parliament, we are in close discussion with our colleagues across government about mandation, and we very much take his point on that.
Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
My Lords, I was indebted to the Minister for his courteous reply to us at the end of the Second Reading debate a week ago. He will recall that I raised with him specifically the use of Uighur slave labour in the manufacture of solar panels in Xinjiang, and the use of 25,000 children in child labour in the DRC in lithium production, which is essential to our green technology. The Minister was unable to answer some of the questions I put to him during that debate. Will he undertake for his officials to write and give replies, so that we can consider them before Committee? Will he place a copy of the replies in the Library of your Lordships’ House?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
I think the Lord will recollect that he asked me rather a lot of questions and, given that my winding-up speech was 20 minutes, with the best will in the world, I said that I would write to him. On the general principle, he knows that I have long shared his concern, particularly about Xinjiang province and the appalling use of the Uighurs. We understand those issues and are committed to tackling them. We have given guidance on the risk to business of trading in Xinjiang province, and we have pointed out the penalties for those who fail to report under the Modern Slavery Act. The noble Lord will find an invitation to meet in the next two days to discuss those issues.
Baroness Winterton of Doncaster (Lab)
My Lords, further to that point, does my noble friend the Minister agree that one of the keys to tackling this issue, especially in terms of exploitation in other countries, is to ensure that solar panels are built in this country and that our industrial strategy matches up with the energy strategy and Great British Energy to make that happen? Can he assure us that he is focused on that?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, that is a very interesting point put forward by my noble friend. One of the responsibilities of the Solar Taskforce is to look at the supply chain, and we will pick up the issue that she mentioned. It is also worth pointing out that if we look at where the content comes from in relation to placing solar panels on a roof, it is reckoned that 60% of the value of the work—including scaffolding and whatever else has to happen—is bought in this country.
Viscount Hailsham (Con)
My Lords, would it not be a great help if the owners of listed buildings could find it easier to obtain planning consent for solar panels? I also declare an interest in that members of my family have listed buildings.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
One of the main benefits of solar is that, in general, planning consent is not required. However, in conservation areas, there are many more constraints. I cannot give the noble Viscount a commitment, but I will make sure that the relevant department is made aware of his views.
The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)
I now call the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, to make a virtual contribution.
Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]
With the price of panels a key consideration in housing costs, and with 75% of the world’s production in China, why can the Government not sponsor a taskforce of engineers and chemists et al with the task of designing and establishing a polysilicon manufacturing plant facility for use in wider solar panel production? The site could be located under a regime of regional development with climate incentives. Polysilicon stands at the heart of competitive solar panel production internationally. That is why the Chinese lead, and why we should be investing now.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
I am very grateful to my noble friend for that very helpful suggestion. I will make sure the taskforce gives it earnest consideration.
Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)
My Lords, as the Government’s Great British Energy Bill enters Committee in the coming weeks, can the Minister confirm whether this will include the deployment of solar panels as part of its strategy? Given that I have the Minister’s attention, and following on from the questions from the noble Baroness, Lady Winterton, and the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, I draw his attention to GB-Sol, a spin-out from Cardiff University, which manufactures Welsh slate-looking tiles, which are suitable for both listed and heritage buildings.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
That is a very interesting point. It is worth making the point also that a number of British companies are assembling some of the solar panels imported from China. I agree that we need to look at all these areas.
In relation to the GB Energy Bill, the noble Baroness will know it is not our intent to place in the Bill the exact amount of energy generation we require from each source. That will be a matter for the GBE board in light of the Government’s overall priority-setting towards clean power and net zero.
Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)
My Lords, I have had solar panels on my roof for many years. There is a local town in Devon near Exeter—Cranbrook—which is growing vastly and does not have a single solar panel on any of the buildings, and there are thousands of houses and other buildings. Can the Minister make sure that cannot happen again?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
I am intrigued, my Lords, to learn as to why there should be a desert in a particular part of the noble and learned Baroness’s county. Certainly, if she would like to send me more details, I will have a look at it.
Lord Redesdale (LD)
My Lords, the Government have pushed for solar panels on roofs, but they have not got a strategy on batteries associated with those panels—it seems to be left up to the individuals. Can the Government say whether they are going to bring forward a storage strategy linked to solar panels?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, storage is of course important. If you apply to have a solar panel, you are usually asked whether you wish to opt for battery or not. This is part of the work that the Solar Taskforce will take forward.
Lord Dobbs (Con)
My Lords, the Government clearly believe it to be of great strategic national interest to get so many solar panels built in a very space of time. As for heat pumps, a tiny fraction of heat pumps were actually built in this country—that was the last Government’s obsession. This Government want to massively expand the use of solar panels. How is the Minister going to ensure that, between now and 2030, the majority of solar panels will be built in this country? How will he also ensure that they are not filled with Chinese chips?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, of course, I cannot guarantee that the majority of solar panels between now and 2030 are going to be built in this country. What I can assure noble Lords is that, as part of the work we are taking forward, we will look at the UK supply chain. However, the essential point here is that we must strive towards clean power. I do not discount the positive impact of heat pumps. The Government, in their warm homes plan, are as committed to heat pumps as they are to solar.
Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)
My Lords, one of the best ways of increasing solar panels on the roof is to incentivise people to put excess capacity over their own usage requirements. What assessment have the Government made of peer-to-peer trading arrangements, which would allow people to sell their excess to their neighbours at a price higher than the smart export guarantee but lower than the retail price? I hope the noble Lord will agree that would be a win-win situation.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
The noble Lord has raised this with me, and I think mentioned it at Second Reading of the GBE Bill, so we are giving it consideration. Of course, one should say that in terms of the incentives for people to invest in solar panels, we already have the smart export guarantee, which is a payment for excess electricity generated. However, as part of the warm homes plan, we are looking at the role of incentives and the use of private finance to find a way to help people with the upfront cost, which—even though solar is cheaper than other renewable energies—is always one of the main problems in relation to people being able to invest in their own solar panels.
Cladding Remediation
(2 months, 2 weeks ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Young of Cookham
To ask His Majesty’s Government what progress has been made on remediating flats with dangerous cladding.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Baroness Taylor of Stevenage) (Lab)
My Lords, I wish the noble Lord better—I know he is not feeling so great today. The pace of remediation has been far too slow, with only 50% of identified buildings beginning or completing works, and just 29% fully remediated. This has caused untold distress and expense for all those concerned. Further strong measures will be detailed in the forthcoming remediation acceleration plan. As set out by the Prime Minister, we are willing to legally require those responsible to assess their buildings and promptly enter remediation schemes. We will bring the full power of government to bear on this task.
Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful for that reply. In the debate on Grenfell on Friday, the Minister’s colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Khan, said:
“Yesterday the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government published its monthly remediation statistics. They show that, of the 4,834 residential buildings 11 metres and over in height with unsafe cladding that the department is monitoring … 50% … have still not started remediation”.—[Official Report, 22/11/24; col. 431.]
That is 250,000 families living in buildings that are not safe, in flats which they cannot sell, and who are confronted with high insurance premiums and service charges; and some of them are also confronted with unlimited remediation costs.
None of these leaseholders are responsible in any way for the difficulties they find themselves in. The NAO has now said that it may take until 2037—20 years after the Grenfell fire—for all the dangerous cladding to be put right, and we still have not identified all the dangerous buildings. I appreciate that the Minister has come to this relatively recently, but does she accept that if we do not get a grip on it, it will be the next major national scandal?
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
My Lords, I am very glad to say that we now have a Government, and a Deputy Prime Minister who is responsible for this area, who take this incredibly seriously. We will soon be publishing a remediation acceleration plan, which outlines the specific measures we are going to take to increase the pace of remediation, to find all the at-risk buildings quicker and to ensure that the residents at the heart of this terrible issue are supported in the process. There is no longer any excuse for those responsible failing to fix dangerous cladding on their buildings. The message is clear: use the routes we have created to get buildings fixed, and get on with the job.
The Deputy Prime Minister recently held a national roundtable with mayors, regulators and national building safety bodies to press home the urgency of this work, and most developers have now signed up now to the plan that she set out. But please be assured that we will not hesitate to use enforcement measures, and we have provided local authorities with funding to undertake the enforcement necessary.
Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe (Lab)
My Lords, there are still limits to access to funding for social landlords, despite the welcome measures the Government have taken already on funding, meaning that those with the lowest incomes still have to pay for unsafe buildings to be fixed, when private developers profited from constructing them. Will my noble friend respond to End our Cladding Scandal’s call for housing associations to have the same access to the building safety fund and the cladding safety scheme as private building owners?
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
I thank my noble friend for the action she has taken already in this respect. The Government are committed to improving building safety, and to accelerating the remediation of unsafe social housing just as much as we are for those in private rented and private owned property. Investment in remediation will rise to record levels of over £1.5 billion across 2024-25 and 2025-26, and that includes new investment to speed up the remediation of social housing. The Government will set out further steps to accelerate remediation in the remediation acceleration plan. Social landlords have access to existing government grants, and the Government are committed to providing £400 million of grant funding to the social housing sector for the removal of unsafe cladding. With social housing, as with other types of housing, there is no excuse now for not getting on with this as quickly as possible.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
My Lords, following on from the Question of my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham, this Labour Government have allocated only £1 billion of funding for the removal of the cladding, in contrast to the £5.1 billion allocated by the previous Government to fix the most dangerous cladding through the cladding safety scheme. Can the Minister explain how the Government came to the figure of £1 billion, and will she commit to comparable levels of support to those seen under the last Government?
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
My Lords, we have waited seven years for action to be taken on this. The remediation acceleration plan will set out the full details of how we intend to take this forward, and the funding that has been set aside. Of course, we would have wanted to put more into this, but with a £22 billion black hole, it has not been possible to do so.
Lord Carter of Haslemere (CB)
The National Audit Office recently published a report showing that of the £16.6 billion total remediation cost, £6.5 billion would be met by developers, private owners and social housing providers. But what about the manufacturers of the cladding, who the inquiry found had been systematically dishonest and deliberately misled through the test data, so as to mislead the market about the safety of the cladding in question? Are they going to foot any part of the total bill?
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
The noble Lord raises a very important question. The Prime Minister stated on the day the inquiry’s report was published that we
“will write to all companies found by the inquiry to have been part of these horrific failings, as the first step to stopping them being awarded Government contracts”.—[Official Report, Commons, 4/9/24; col. 312.]
Preliminary letters have been now written to all those organisations mentioned by name in the report, each of which bears a different level of responsibility for the failings that led to the Grenfell tragedy, including construction project manufacturers. We recognise the failings of the system for construction projects, and we announced our commitment to bring forward proposals for reform of the regulatory regime in a Written Ministerial Statement on 2 September.
Baroness Brinton (LD)
My Lords, the very serious fire in a high-rise block of flats in Dagenham in August has resulted in the residents losing their homes and not even being able to access their belongings. They are also in real financial hardship. They are really grateful for the support from their local council, Barking and Dagenham, which has stopped them having to pay any council tax and provides weekly support meetings. Last Thursday, the owner of the building announced that it was to be demolished, without any discussion at all with the leaseholders and residents. The council cannot force the owner to the table, so I was very pleased to hear the Minister talk about enforcing remediation and working with people. Is there anything she can do to help these residents get the owner in front of them, so they can find out what is actually happening?
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
I am grateful to the noble Baroness for raising that issue, and to Barking and Dagenham Council, which acted very quickly to support the residents. A great deal of action is being taken on building owners who are not progressing remediation works, getting them to do so as quickly as possible. The enforcement action is strengthened by funding for local authorities, as I said earlier.
We all know that one of the great failings in the Grenfell situation was the failure to take residents’ voices seriously enough. We are clear that all projects should comply with the guidance in the code, and we will take action where needed if there is a failure to comply with the resident voice. The code is not currently legally binding; however, it does include references to legislation and has been developed in accordance with guidance and requirements. We will keep the status of that code under review, but there is redress for residents should they need to seek it.
Baroness Wheatcroft (CB)
My Lords, guidance note 9980 is being used as an excuse by developers. It enables them to look at the safety of buildings with dangerous cladding on a holistic basis, so that they can claim that if the fire escapes are okay, they do not need to remediate. Can the Minister commit to having a look at that guidance note? I declare an interest as a part-owner of a building with cladding issues.
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
I am grateful to the noble Baroness for raising that point. I will have another look at it, but that guidance is very clear. They are industry-accepted standards, so they should be adhered to.
Lord Rooker (Lab)
Why do the Government not arrange for the blocks of flats that still have dangerous cladding to be fitted with equipment to prevent neutral current diversions causing a fire in the first place? The fear of fire has got to be a serious issue. Given that the most expensive three blocks of flats in London are fitted with such equipment, I do not see why it should not be fitted to all those flats where people are living in fear and still with dangerous cladding.
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
I thank my noble friend, who has raised this point in previous debates. I hope he received a written response, but I will endeavour to seek another response for him on the specific point he makes today.
Taipei Representative Office in the United Kingdom
(2 months, 2 weeks ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness D'Souza
To ask His Majesty’s Government whether they plan to review the status of the Taipei Representative Office in the United Kingdom.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)
My Lords, the UK’s long-standing position on Taiwan has not changed. The UK does not have diplomatic relations with Taiwan but does have a strong unofficial relationship based on deep and growing ties in a range of areas, underpinned by shared democratic values. The Taipei Representative Office works in the UK in the absence of those diplomatic relations. The UK does not have plans to review the status of the TRO but continues to work constructively with it in pursuit of our shared interests and within the parameters of our long-standing position.
Baroness D'Souza (CB)
I thank the Minister for her Answer, and I acknowledge that this is a difficult area. However, the London Taipei office is not invited to or included in any diplomatic events; does not receive protection from the police protection unit; is not exempt from council tax or business rates; cannot open a bank account with any British bank; and cannot secure meetings with Ministers or FCDO officials beyond director level, among many other restrictions. I wonder whether the Minister will say whether she feels that this is adequate support for a thriving but threatened democracy.
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
My Lords, whenever I am asked about my feelings on these issues, I know that it is probably wise to choose my words incredibly carefully. To reiterate: the Government do not have any plans to change the current long-standing position, but we have deep ties with Taiwan through various means, as do our Parliaments. Much as I hear and understand the noble Baroness’s concerns about the current situation, at present the Government do not plan to change it.
Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab)
My Lords, are there any steps, short of full recognition, that would recognise that Taiwan/Taipei is a democracy with very warm relations with the United Kingdom?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
We do recognise that. I know that several noble Lords in this Chamber have undertaken many meetings with and visits to Taiwan. This Parliament and representatives of Taiwan enjoy that connection and relationship. Long may that continue.
Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
My Lords, unlike our trade with China, with which we have a trade deficit of £23.7 billion—which is a strategic vulnerability—the UK has a trade surplus of £1.1 billion with Taiwan. As discussed in our first Question today, it is a liberal democracy that respects modern slavery standards, labour law rules and intellectual property rights. Surely it is in our strategic interests to grow trade with Taiwan over trade with China. In the context of the previous visit to Europe by former President Tsai, can the Minister confirm that no FCDO official was in contact with the TRO to suggest that her visit be postponed?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
My Lords, the noble Lord is correct to point out our good trading relationship with Taiwan. We do not see this as an either/or. We have a good trading relationship with both China and Taiwan. I can only reiterate the answers given about the visit in the other place and in this Chamber. The characterisation that has been given to this visit is not one that the FCDO recognises.
The Earl of Courtown (Con)
My Lords, considering the UK’s commitment to supporting democracies around the world, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, and the Minister, how are the Government leveraging their relationship with Taiwan to promote the shared values of freedom, democracy and the rule of law in the region?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
We are very keen to promote our values of democracy and the rule of law in the region and elsewhere in the world. I would not say that we are particularly leveraging our relationship with Taiwan. I think it is more important to us than that, and we will promote these values throughout the world whenever we have the opportunity to do so.
Lord Rogan (UUP)
My Lords, I declare my interests as set out in the register. In May this year, the then United Kingdom Government published on their official website a joint statement signed by several international partners, including the British Office Taipei, reaffirming the joint support for Taiwan’s meaningful participation in the work of the World Health Organization and as an observer at the World Health Assembly. Does the Minister support this statement on behalf of the present Government? If so, will she use her good offices as a Foreign Office Minister to back the increasing momentum towards the establishment of a fully fledged UK embassy in Taiwan?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
My Lords, we support Taiwan’s participation in multilateral bodies, particularly when statehood is not a prerequisite, such as at the World Health Assembly, and we have supported its participation as an observer in other ways, including at the WHO.
Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
My Lords, I welcome what the Minister has just said about the World Health Organization. Is it not particularly reprehensible that China, the place of origin of Covid-19, should have blocked Taiwan from becoming a member of the World Health Organization? Given that we can do more, at the Human Rights Council, in the General Assembly and elsewhere, to influence these events, should we not be pointing out to others that those who fund the WHO feel some anger, having provided money to that wonderful organisation, that a country of 23 million people is excluded from its membership?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
My Lords, we value the work of the WHO and the contribution that Taiwan has made through the World Health Assembly. We will continue to support its participation, because we believe that everyone who has something to contribute to this important organisation and its work should be supported in doing so.
Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)
My Lords, the Chinese say that, if necessary, they will surround and besiege the island of Taiwan in three hours. That is their estimate and they have positioned forces to do it. They will then be surrounding an island that produces about 39% of the world’s larger industrial chips and probably an even greater percentage of domestic microcircuits, which really create the modern world, so we would be in a very serious position. Can we work closely with the Taipei Representative Office here and all our Taiwanese friends to foresee and prepare for the problems with such a situation in various ways, including by developing our own microchip industries 10 times more vigorously?
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
The noble Lord is right to remind us of the precariousness of a situation arising such as he describes. It would be very dire indeed for the world economy. It would take around 10% of the world’s GDP, and no country, including China, would be immune to that impact.
Lord Polak (Con)
My Lords, during the election campaign, the Labour Party talked about change. Does the Minister not think that change should take place in this area—in Taiwan and Somaliland? Somaliland had peaceful, democratic elections 10 days ago; is it not about time that the British Government, who owe these people something, supported their rights? Now is the time for that change.
Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)
I hear the noble Lord. There are many countries in the world that I wish we could change for a statement or a shift in position. But we need to tread carefully and respectfully, and work alongside allies, putting all the interests of the United Kingdom front and centre. That is the way this Government will proceed.
NHS: Dentistry Provision
(2 months, 2 weeks ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Fuller
To ask His Majesty’s Government how they intend to tackle the issue of ‘dental deserts’, areas with no NHS provision for dentistry; what plans they have to establish new dental schools to meet demand, and on the basis of what criteria decisions about new dental schools will be made.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)
My Lords, 28% of the population of England needs but cannot access NHS dentistry. We want to ensure that everyone who needs a dentist can get one, including by providing 700,000 more urgent dental appointments and recruiting dentists to areas that need them. Government approval is not required to establish new dental schools; we encourage prospective providers to approach the General Dental Council, and we will work with partners to assess the best distribution of training places.
Lord Fuller (Con)
My Lords, I live in Norfolk which, alongside its neighbouring counties, is the only part of our nation not to have a school of dentistry. Even the Secretary of State says that our county is the “Sahara of dental deserts”. It is important: poor oral health is the principal cause of admission to hospital for children of primary school age, and incidences of mouth cancer are being missed locally. The last Government announced plans to recruit 1,000 more dentists a year and to build completely new schools of dentistry in which to train them alongside hygienists. Will these plans be taken forward by the new Government? Does the Minister agree with me that, where entirely new schools of dentistry are to be established, it makes much more sense to put them where we do not have very many dentists, rather than to have even more schools where we do have them? I hope she will say that the Government look favourably upon the proposals from the University of East Anglia to establish a brand-new school of dentistry and oral hygiene in Norwich.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I commend the noble Lord for raising his long experience of facing and dealing with these problems locally in Norfolk. I note the report in September that the Norfolk and Waveney area has the worst ratio of NHS dentists to patients in England, with 1,000-plus people having to attend Norfolk’s casualty department last year due to serious dental issues, so this is a serious point. We are aware of the University of East Anglia’s interest in this area, and my colleague Stephen Kinnock, the Minister responsible for this area, recently met with east of England MPs to discuss this matter. However, as I have said, it is not the Government who make these decisions, although we encourage those new dental schools to be in areas of particular need. I encourage the University of East Anglia to take its proposals to the General Dental Council.
Lord Scriven (LD)
My Lords, has any extra allocation been made in-year—this year—from the Budget’s NHS allocation for the extra appointments the Government wish to see in dentistry, or is this expected to be bought from existing ring-fenced dentistry budgets?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, the Government are investing around £3 billion in dentistry each year. As the noble Lord will be aware, I cannot yet confirm 2025-26 dentistry budgets, but they will be confirmed in planning guidance published by NHS England in due course. I know that the noble Lord will be aware that, despite the tough fiscal circumstances the Government have inherited, the Budget set out a big increase in day-to-day spending for health and social care. Regarding the process, and our planning, it is entirely normal that we set out matters in planning guidance. We are, of course, keen to reform the dental contract with a shift to focusing on prevention and the retention of NHS dentists. That work is immediately under way.
Lord Fowler (CB)
My Lords, no one fought harder for the elimination of dental deserts than Lord Colwyn, who died recently and whom most of us in this House remember. Would not the best memorial to Lord Colwyn be to place a new priority on dental services particularly for children? As well as making that a priority, and to show that it is, should we not allocate it a budget?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I would like to associate these Benches with the comments made by the noble Lord about the late Lord Colwyn, whose contribution was indeed considerable. I agree that that would be a very appropriate legacy to his memory. The fact is that we are in the position that the previous Government’s dentistry recovery plan did not go far enough and, as we all know, there are too many people struggling to find an NHS appointment. As part of our 10-year plan we are working to assess the need for more dental trainees in areas including the east of England, which the previous noble Lord referred to, because many people continue to struggle. This cannot go on, not least because prevention is absolutely crucial as we move towards making an NHS fit for the future.
Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)
My Lords, I refer to my interests in the register as chair of the General Dental Council. I am grateful to my noble friend the Minister for twice referring to the General Dental Council, but she has, perhaps inadvertently, given the impression that all that is required for a new dental school is that somebody rocks up to the General Dental Council and says they would like to open one. What consideration has she given to where the resources will come from for the training of extra dentists through a new dental school? Can she say what is being done to look at the best use of the number of dental professionals that exist around the country in order to make the best use of the skills mix between dentists and dental care professionals?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My noble friend makes, as ever, very important points, and I am grateful for the opportunity to clarify that it is not a matter of just rocking up to the General Dental Council. However, we may find—I am sure that we will—that, in order to deliver our workforce ambitions, we need to work with partners such as NHS England and the GDC to explore the creation of new dental schools in currently underserved areas of the country. We have already had one such example. Provided that a prospective dental school meets the requirements of the GDC and the Office for Students, it will be considered for future government-funded training places. I absolutely agree with my noble friend that there are a number of layers to this, and I also agree that we need to look at the whole dental team, including dentists. There are a number of people involved in care, and it is crucial that the workforce plan can deliver on that.
Lord Kamall (Con)
My Lords, the Minister said that it was not only about rocking up to the General Dental Council, as the noble Lord, Lord Harris, said, but about having conversations. Can the Minister confirm what specific conversations the Government have had with the NHS, with the General Dental Council and with other dental bodies to encourage the opening of schools of dentistry in so-called dental deserts, especially in areas such as Norfolk, which my noble friend Lord Fuller described as the Sahara of dental deserts?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
As the noble Lord will know, we are very keen to see that the areas that are most underserved—as I know from my own experience in Lincolnshire—are targeted. One of the reasons is the problem of recruiting and retaining dentists, as there is not a dental school to call upon. That point is well understood. We are keen to target the areas that need the most, as well as providing additional urgent dental appointments. Early conversations have also taken place with the Minister for Care, Stephen Kinnock, about reforming the dental contract, which is absolutely key, and that work will continue at pace.
The Lord Bishop of Newcastle
My Lords, the Child of the North report, published in September, on the crisis in oral health in children, reported that 20% of children in the north-east have tooth decay in their permanent teeth. What plans do the Government have to implement one of the report’s recommendations—namely, to have a national strategy for children’s oral health, of which the establishment of new dental schools could be a part?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
The right reverend Prelate makes a very good point. The fact is that the overall state of our children’s oral health is very poor, including in the north-east, as she rightly identifies. One of the shocking facts is the impact on children’s ability to sleep, eat, play, socialise and even learn. It is also shocking that tooth decay is still the most common reason for hospital admission in children aged five to nine years. We will indeed look at the report, but we do have a strategy, including the introduction of supervised toothbrushing for young children in disadvantaged areas.
Arrangement of Business
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, the next two items of business are questions on Urgent Questions asked in the other place. The clue is in the title: questions. We have 10 minutes for each, so please ask short, sharp, succinct questions and, equally, give short, sharp, succinct responses.
Police Reform
(2 months, 2 weeks ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Davies of Gower (Con)
My Lords, having spent 32 years as a detective officer investigating crime in the police, I never thought I would ask this question, but does the Minister agree that it is important that police spend their time actually investigating crime, not policing thought? Will he agree to change the guidelines urgently on non-crime hate incidents?
The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)
Yes, the Government are reviewing the guidelines on non-crime hate incidents. We will work with the police college and the National Police Chiefs’ Council to review that. The police should concentrate on serious crime, street crime and neighbourhood policing accordingly.
Baroness Doocey (LD)
My Lords, additional investment in neighbourhood policing is of course most welcome, but it is also crucial that forces have adequate support staff, to free up front-line officers. The uplift programme’s ring-fenced funding model forced police officers into back-office roles, damaging efficiency and morale. Does the Minister agree that greater flexibility is needed to deliver neighbourhood policing—for example, allowing chief constables to decide the most operationally effective workforce mix of both officers and back-room staff, crucially without them then incurring financial penalties?
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
The Government are committed, as part of our manifesto commitments, to encouraging and supplying resources to fund 13,000 neighbourhood police officers. How police and crime commissioners and chief constables determine the use of that resource is for them. We will have the overall policing Statement in December, but last week my right honourable friend the Home Secretary announced an extra £264 million for policing, a £0.5 billion fund to support wider policing, and additional measures on respect orders and anti-social behaviour. I hope the noble Baroness will await the Statement in December, but I hear what she says about the flexibility we require.
Viscount Hailsham (Con)
My Lords, does the Minister agree that there are significant savings to be made by a greater harmonisation in procurement policies among police forces? If he does, how does he intend to press that forward?
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
I agree absolutely. One of the options that the Home Secretary announced last week was a police performance unit to look at more centralised procurement. There are savings to be made in the police budget by 43 forces working together in certain areas. That will be part of the establishment that will be taken forward by the police performance unit, and I hope that the noble Viscount will welcome it in due course.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, will my noble friend have a word with the National Crime Agency to see if it can speed up and report early on its inquiry into Michelle Mone—the noble Baroness, Lady Mone—and her husband and the allegations of criminality against them? Until the National Crime Agency reports, we are unable to get a report from our own commissioner, who has investigated whether or not she has broken our rules as well.
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
My noble friend will know that the investigation by any police force, not least the National Crime Agency, is a matter for that police force, not Ministers. Additional resources will go into policing next year, so if that is a problem for the National Crime Agency it can call on those additional resources, but it is not for me to determine investigations.
Lord Paddick (Non-Afl)
My Lords, the Minister might find this question familiar: with police and crime commissioners deciding police priorities, police budgets and how those budgets are spent in consultation with their chief constable, and with chief constables having operational independence, how much influence can the Government realistically have over policing under current arrangements?
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
The Government have quite a lot of influence over policing. As the noble Lord will know, we set the budget for policing and will do so in December. As he will also know, particularly after my contribution today, there is £264 million of additional funding going in, along with £0.5 billion going in overall. Police national insurance contributions will be covered by central government, and a new policing unit is being put in place. There is a push on violence against women and girls. New respect orders are going into place. There will be new powers to tackle off-road bikes. We are giving priorities to police on those issues. This is a partnership. Police and crime commissioners are there, as are chief constables. The Government set a framework and set decisions—for example, the changes in law that we will bring to this House on shoplifting and shop theft. There is a serious central role, but self-evidently there is a local decision-making process as well.
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
My Lords, on White Ribbon Day, whose slogan is, “It starts with men”, will the Minister note the irony of the British Transport Police’s new policy allowing a male officer who identifies as a woman to conduct intimate searches of women? Will he add that to the police reform agenda and condemn, along with me, what some women’s rights campaigners are calling state-sanctioned sexual assault—that is, police violence against women and girls?
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
Trans people have a right to exist and be employed in communities to work with communities, and I will defend that right for trans people to hold responsible positions in society. If the noble Baroness wants to write to me with a specific example, we will look at that but, as far as I am concerned, let us get round to the basics that trans people are people.
Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)
My Lords, I refer to my policing interests in the register. Is it not the case that successive Governments have focused almost to the exclusion of all else on the question of police numbers? Does my noble friend agree that there is a case for allowing chief constables and police and crime commissioners much more flexibility about the way in which they use the total police workforce, perhaps not always using police officers but instead using PCSOs or police staff to carry out the functions that need to be carried out? It is not necessary to have a fully warranted, fully trained constable to carry out all the things that a police force needs to do.
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
I am grateful to my noble friend for the experience he brings to the Question. It is certainly the Government’s wish to give flexibility to local police and crime commissioners and chief constables to determine their local priorities, but we still need to set central advice, guidance and funding. One of the key things that will come out of the December settlement will be a focus on neighbourhood policing. It was a manifesto commitment to invest in 13,000 neighbourhood police officers to ensure greater engagement at a local level on crime detection, support from the community and a wider neighbourhood policing role. Within that flexibility I am very happy for chief constables and police and crime commissioners to allow a range of roles to be undertaken to achieve the Government’s objective of reducing crime.
Lord Bach (Lab)
My Lords, as an ex-police and crime commissioner some years ago now, I agree with the Minister in his reply to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Paddick. I know from bitter experience that, because of government settlements, the number of police officers went down year by year and there was nothing that a police and crime commissioner let alone a chief constable could do about it. It may not be all important but it is pretty important, so are those years over now?
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
We are trying to reset the relationship between central government and the 43 police forces. That resettlement includes a £0.5 billion boost to policing generally; a new standards authority; £264 million announced up front to help support police to deliver good services; a settlement in December which I am not at liberty yet to talk about, because it is right and proper that we announce that to both Houses in December; and a range of new powers on anti-social behaviour, shop theft and violence against women and girls to set the tone that we need to take action on serious organised crime, violence against women and basic neighbourhood policing issues such as shop theft. I hope that will reset that relationship and I will be held to account by this House and others in doing so.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Con)
I refer back to the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley. Might the Minister wish to reconsider his reaction that a legitimate question about the sanction of the British Transport Police of transgender officers being able to conduct intimate searches of women was a suggestion that she was casting any kind of aspersion on trans people?
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
I will reflect on what the noble Baroness has said, and on what the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley—in the county of Flintshire—said about that issue, and I will write to both of them. There might be a need for some guidance, but the key point I am making is that we have to recognise that trans people can fulfil roles in policing and should be encouraged and supported to do so.
Asylum Seekers: Hotel Accommodation
(2 months, 2 weeks ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)
My Lords, there were 213 hotels in use by the Home Office at the time of the election; there are now 220. That is an increase of seven which have opened under this Government, notwithstanding the commitment in the Labour manifesto to “end hotel use”. When does the Minister envisage reducing the number of hotels again and when does he envisage ending the use of hotels, as his party promised?
The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)
The Government have closed 14 hotels since July; there have been additions, so there is a net increase of seven hotels. The key point that the Government are trying to undertake—I know that the noble Lord will know this—is to reset the agenda on this issue. That means putting money into a secure command at sea to ensure that we do not have those small boats coming in the first place; speeding up asylum claims; encouraging deportations of those who do not have a right to be here; and looking at the long-term issues of hotel accommodation.
In answer to the noble Lord’s question, it remains the Government’s ambition to exit hotels as soon as possible, because he left us with a bill of £8 million per day and with £700 million of expenditure on a Rwanda scheme that sent four people to Rwanda, all voluntarily. We inherited a scheme that would have cost billions of pounds and would not have deterred or stopped the use of hotels. We need to speed up asylum accommodation. We will do that and, at the appropriate time, exit hotels and save the taxpayer resource by doing so.
Lord German (LD)
My Lords, I draw attention to my interests in the register, as I am supported by RAMP. I appreciate the position that the Government find themselves in: a huge backlog of people to deal with, some of them here for a very long time indeed. Has the Minister considered that a way of releasing some accommodation would be to allow people who are here now and have been for more than six months to start to do some work, even on a temporary basis, and therefore fend for themselves? That would be just like the rules used in every country in the European Union.
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
I appreciate the suggestion and will take it as a representation from the noble Lord as to government policy. We are concerned with trying to reduce the use of asylum as a whole, to stop people coming and to undertake deportations where they are appropriate. On the asylum figures, 10,000 claims every month are now being taken through the system. When the noble Lord, Lord Murray, was the Minister it was 1,000 a month, so it is a massive increase in relation to asylum support. We put additional officers in to do that. We have put an additional £75 million into the border security scheme, with a brand new border command, and stopped the wasteful Rwanda programme, which has cost us £700 million to date and would have cost us billions of pounds accordingly. I will take the representation but the Government’s focus is to speed up asylum claims, stop the boats in the first place, ensure that we repatriate that money and, in answer to the noble Lord’s question, exit hotels as quickly as possible to save the taxpayer resource.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)
My Lords, I hope that my noble friend did not mean that he wanted to reduce asylum, because it is a legitimate—
Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)
Good. I am glad and wanted to put that on the record. Last week, a round table of academics and stakeholders heard of children wrongly assessed as adults being put in hotels with adults, to the detriment of their mental health. Are the Government looking at this as an issue?
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
I reassure my noble friend that the Government have a proud role in accepting people with legitimate asylum claims. The key question, which relates to the questions from both Opposition Front-Bench spokespeople, is about the speed and efficiency, and the prevention of illegal entry where there is no asylum claim. The Government will take that on board and I will certainly take away the point that my noble friend mentions. I will look at whether we have figures and facts on children being used and accommodated in that way. If she will let me, I will report back to her and place any letter in the Library of the House.
Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)
My Lords, what are the Government doing about getting rid of those who should not be here?
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
I can help the noble and learned Baroness on that point. Between 5 July and 28 October this year, which is the only time that I can account for as Minister, the Government have returned 9,400 people who have no right to be here. Of those 9,400 returned, 2,590 were enforced returns, which is a 19% increase on when the noble Lord, Lord Murray, held this post not 12 months ago.
Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
Uniquely in the OECD, the previous Government made the decision to overturn many years of UK practice to score as 100% official development assistance the first-year immigration costs, including hotel costs. This has meant that the ODA budget has been massively squeezed, to the extent that under the previous Government in their last full year, more ODA was spent in the UK on immigration costs than on bilateral programmes abroad, in direct contravention of the 2002 legislation. Many people thought the new Labour Government would reverse this calumny, but they have not—in fact, they are doubling down. Can the Minister tell me what the ODA costs are for the first year of immigration under this new Government and why they have taken the decision to penalise the most vulnerable and poorest around the world for the failures of the previous Government?
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
With due respect to the noble Lord, I will look into his point, but we are four and a half months into this Government. The focus the Government have had so far—and I say this genuinely—has been the removals of people with no right to be here, putting extra resources into speeding up the asylum system, stopping this failed Rwanda scheme, and putting money into border security. These things take time. I will reflect on the points he has made, but it is not the long-term aim of the Government to spend the overseas aid budget on supporting issues to do with asylum in the United Kingdom. The aim of this Government is to speed up the asylum system, stop people fraudulently coming, and welcome people who, as my noble friend Lady Lister said, deserve and require asylum under our legal obligations. But we have to try to move this tanker in a very slow and difficult way. The tanker is slowly and surely being moved. I hope the noble Lord will recognise that.
Viscount Hailsham (Con)
Does the Minister acknowledge that the existence of the international convention does make it extraordinarily difficult to turn the tanker?
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
No, we respect our international obligations—and we can take action. As I said a moment ago, the 9,400 total returns is a 19% increase over the past year; 2,590 were enforced returns. It is an important step by this Government to remove people who have no right of abode in this United Kingdom. But we will respect asylum claims that are legitimate. We will speed them up and, by doing so, we will ensure—to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord German—that people, having had that asylum approved, will be able to go out and contribute to society. It is a very difficult tanker to turn, as the noble Viscount will understand, but it is one that we are determined to turn.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
My Lords, back in April a joint report from the APPG on Poverty and the APPG on Migration recommended that asylum seekers should be allowed to work after six months in the country. Given the enormous asylum backlog and the costs to which we are referring, surely the Government are considering allowing asylum seekers to work after six months, so that they can both support themselves and contribute their skills and energy to our economy, while we deal with this enormous continuing backlog.
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
I refer the noble Baroness to the answer I gave earlier to the noble Lord, Lord German. Those are issues I will take as a representation, but the prime focus of the Government currently is to increase the use of asylum cases being approved and we have done that—up from 1,000 a month to 10,000 in the last month. That has been a big focus. I repeat myself, but it is important, the focus is on the issue of small boats, the Border Security Command and the issue of trying in the long term to reduce the number of hotels and to scrap the Rwanda scheme. Those are initial proposals the Government have brought forward. We will look at other options in due course.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)
My Lords, are we not seen as a soft touch by those who want to get into this country and as having little control over the number of people coming in? According to reports, there may be close on a million people who are not registered as British citizens. Should we not be exploring again the use of a modern identity system? The abolition of the ID cards by the coalition Government was a serious error. Is it not the case that we will have to return to it, and the sooner we look at that, the better?
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
I respect the question from my noble friend. I reassure him that this United Kingdom Labour Government are not a soft touch on migration to this country. We have invested in Border Force. We are investing in additional measures to prevent illegal entry and in a e-visa system which will allow people to come into this country through a controlled mechanism.
On the aspirations for an identity card, I was in the Home Office when we introduced the identity card. It went through the noble Baroness, Lady May, in her actions as Home Secretary. It is not likely to return soon.
The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Fookes) (Con)
My Lords, my apologies for inadvertently cutting off the Minister.
G20 and COP 29 Summits
(2 months, 2 weeks ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)
My Lords, I will repeat a Statement the Prime Minister made last Thursday:
“Thank you for your earlier words about John Prescott. We woke today to the deeply sad news that we have lost a true giant of the Labour movement and of this House; a man who fought for working-class ambition because he lived it. As one of the key architects of a Labour Government, John achieved that rare thing: he changed people’s lives and he set the path for us all to follow. I will always be grateful to him for that. He did it in his own way, with humour, pride, passion and total conviction. He truly was a one-off. There will be a moment for fuller tributes, but today I send my deepest condolences to John’s wife Pauline and his family, to the city of Hull, and to all those who knew and loved him. His legacy lives on in all of us.
I would like to update the House on my engagements at COP and the G20. We live in a dangerous and volatile world. We all wish that that were not the case, but it is, and it means that global problems are reaching into the lives of our constituents more and more. Climate change causes extreme weather, such as the terrible floods that we saw in September, and drives down economic growth; conflicts drive up the prices of fuel, food and energy and threaten our stability and security; and both are drivers of migration. To serve the British people we must tackle these problems head-on, because they do not stop at our borders—and that is the fundamental point. At every meeting I had at COP and the G20, and in every agreement I entered into, my focus was on tackling these problems to deliver growth and security for the British people.
At COP, I made the case that we must act on climate change and nature loss as some of the greatest long-term threats we face, and in doing so we must seize the opportunities of the low-carbon economy for investment, for UK businesses and for British workers. At COP, I was proud to announce the UK’s new nationally determined contribution, with a 2035 target to reduce all greenhouse gas emissions by at least 81% on 1990 levels. I called on other countries to match that ambition to limit global temperature rises to 1.5 degrees, and I made the investment case for the transformation that we are leading here in the UK.
By launching GB Energy, creating the National Wealth Fund to build new energy infrastructure and setting a path to clean power by 2030, we will not just boost our energy security and protect bill payers, but put Britain in pole position to claim the clean energy jobs of the future. That is why at COP, I was able to announce a £1 billion wind turbine investment that will support 1,300 local jobs around Hull—something of which John would have been proud—and produce enough clean energy to power 1 million homes. That is in addition to the recent investment in carbon capture in Teesside and Merseyside, which will create 4,000 jobs, and the investment announced by my right honourable friend the Chancellor for 11 new green hydrogen projects across Britain.
Tackling climate change is a global effort, of course, so at the G20, together with Brazil and 10 other countries, I launched our global clean power alliance to speed up the international rollout of clean power, accelerate investment, and cut emissions around the world.
We came together at the G20 to meet other challenges as well. I was pleased to join President Lula’s Global Alliance Against Hunger and Poverty to bring an end to the lost decade in that fight, because this is also an investment in stability and in tackling the factors that force people to leave their homes and make long journeys that too often end with criminal gangs exploiting them and putting their lives at risk in the English Channel. We will smash those gangs. I am sure the House will welcome last week’s news from the Netherlands, where the National Crime Agency, operating with European partners, arrested a man suspected of being a major supplier of small boats equipment. We will hit these organised criminals with the full force of the law, but we will also work with our partners to address the root causes of the problem.
The G20 represents 85% of global GDP, so we have a shared interest in driving up growth and investment. I held productive bilateral meetings with many G20 leaders to that end: Brazil, Japan, Italy, South Africa, the Republic of Korea and others. I also met Italy and Japan together to take forward the Global Combat Air Programme, which will build the next generation of fighter jets, create highly skilled jobs and strengthen our national security for the longer term.
I also had a good discussion with Prime Minister Modi about deepening our bilateral ties. We agreed to raise the ambition of our UK-India comprehensive strategic partnership, covering security, defence, technology, climate, health and education, building on the unique bonds and cultural ties between our two countries. Crucially, this work will start with trade and investment, and I am pleased to say that we agreed to launch FTA negotiations early in the new year.
I also held a bilateral meeting with President Xi. This was the first high-level leader meeting between the United Kingdom and China for six years. We had a frank, constructive and pragmatic discussion. As G20 economies and permanent members of the Security Council at a time of huge volatility, we both recognise the importance of engagement. I was clear that we will always act in our national interest, but we need to work together on challenges such as climate change and delivering growth. We agreed to a new dialogue on these issues, which my right honourable friend the Chancellor will take forward with the Vice-Premier in Beijing. Of course, there will continue to be areas where we do not agree, and we will address them clearly and frankly. They include a number of human rights issues, the sanctioning of Members of this House and, of course, Hong Kong, but here too we need to engage. The lesson of history is that we are better able to deal with problems, and the world is safer, when leaders talk, so we agreed to keep this channel of communication open.
Although it was not on the formal agenda of the G20, the spectre of conflict loomed large over the summit. Conflict is spreading misery, destruction and despair, and causing children to starve and families to flee their homes. I called again for the immediate and unconditional release of the hostages in Gaza, who are always uppermost in our minds. I also called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and a massive increase in the flow of aid to Gaza, which is desperately needed. Yesterday, we backed a UN Security Council resolution to that end. We must find ways to make this international pressure count, to end the suffering on all sides.
The G20 coincided with 1,000 days of conflict in Ukraine. For the third year running, Putin did not attend. Instead, on the eve of the summit, he launched Russia’s biggest attack for months, killing yet more innocent Ukrainians and hitting civilian energy infrastructure at the start of winter, and he indulged yet again in dangerous, irresponsible rhetoric. This is a member of the Security Council acting with contempt for the UN charter. Whereas Brazil made finding solutions to hunger and poverty the focus of its presidency, in recent weeks Russian missiles have continued to rain down on civilian ships carrying grain bound for Africa. It could not be more clear: this is a man who wants destruction, not peace.
After 1,000 days of war—1,000 days of Ukrainian bravery and sacrifice—I am clear that we must double down on our support. We will not be deterred or distracted by reckless threats. We have consistently said that we will do what it takes to support Ukraine and put it in the best possible position going into the winter. The UK’s support for Ukraine is always for self-defence. It is proportionate, co-ordinated and agile, in response to Russia’s own actions. It is in accordance with international law: under Article 51 of the UN charter, Ukraine has a clear right of self-defence against Russia’s illegal attacks. I say again that Russia could roll back its forces and end this war tomorrow. Until then, we will stand up for what we know is right, for Ukraine’s security and for our own security, and we will back Ukraine with what is needed for as long as it takes.
In challenging times, I take the view that British leadership matters more than ever. For the sake of our growth and security, we are making our presence felt, giving the British people a voice on the global stage once again and standing up for the national interest. I commend this Statement to the House”.
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, I repeat the genuine sadness that we on this side also felt in losing a great comrade in this place: the late Lord Prescott. He was a man of the deepest conviction and principle. He was a great party man but, at the same time, a true patriot.
I thank the Leader of the House for repeating the Statement, although I felt that a few of the Prime Minister’s words were somewhat self-congratulatory. Perhaps third-party congratulations for this Government are running a little short. The Statement pumps up unilateral announcements on energy policy that did not require the Prime Minister to go to Rio or Baku. Has the noble Baroness an update, asked for last week, on the costs of flying 470 UK delegates to Baku?
We will study carefully the conclusions of COP 29 on the important questions of climate change and nature loss, although I see with some regret that many developing countries have already criticised them. Can the noble Baroness confirm the new $300 billion annual climate finance target by 2035? Will she say what the contribution of the UK will be and whether the great polluter China will now contribute to this? How many countries have pledged to match the Prime Minister’s new long-term commitments?
The Statement claims that domestic energy initiatives will “protect bill payers”, yet Labour recently voted against enshrining in law a pre-election promise to bring down energy bills by £300, and it has accelerated policies to festoon our countryside with pylons and raise costs for consumers. The Government now admit that their energy policy will push 100,000 pensioners into poverty by 2027. How can the noble Baroness defend that?
The Statement referred to action against illegal migration, and we welcome that. I welcome the fact that the Prime Minister met with the Prime Minister of Italy—there is always good advice to be had from real Conservatives. But is he aware that Italy and the EU are both actively pursuing what President von der Leyen has called “return hubs”, while the Labour Government have abandoned that course and are reopening asylum hotels, as we have just heard. The Prime Minister boasts of an arrest in Holland in the Statement, but, under the last Government, 246 people smugglers were arrested in one year.
On defence, we welcome the recommitment to pursuing the Global Combat Air Programme with Japan and Italy, but we still await any credible route to the 2.5% target on defence in the face of Russia’s aggression, which the Statement rightly condemned. But it was disappointing, at the very least, not to see this aggression called out by name in the G20 communiqué. We welcome and we back the Government’s continuing support for Ukraine. Putin’s aggression must be and will be stopped, and the noble Baroness has our support.
However, it was disappointing to see in paragraph 8 of the G20 communiqué no meaningful recognition of the terrorist onslaught on Israel, against which it has every right to protect itself. Instead, the Prime Minister again called for an immediate ceasefire. There was no mention in the communiqué of UN Resolution 1701, so flagrantly breached by Hezbollah. Does the noble Baroness agree that that resolution is fundamental? When she replies, will she assure the House, and indeed Jewish people in this country, that there will be no question of the UK Government undertaking or permitting an ICC-inspired arrest of Prime Minister Netanyahu, should he come to these shores? There can be no ifs and buts on this question, as my noble friend Lord Wolfson of Tredegar has explained.
The G20 rightly laid emphasis on the challenge of hunger, so much of which results, as the Prime Minister accurately said, from conflict. It is important that we play our full part in addressing that. Perhaps the Minister could say a little on our efforts in Sudan, which, sadly, went unmentioned in the communiqué.
Paragraph 15 of the G20 statement states that the world is capable of producing the food it needs. It is, but to do so it needs farmers. I doubt that world leaders were lining up outside the prime ministerial suite to ask for his advice on how to treat those hard-working people. Can the Minister assure the House that the Government will give a lead to the world and think again about their cruel assault on small farming families?
I welcome the positive commitment to improving and maintaining relations with India, a great friend and a key strategic partner. On the Indian Ocean more widely, can the Minister tell us if, after the Government’s stampede to surrender the Chagos Islands without any consultation with the Chagossian people, President Milei of Argentina has asked for the handover of the Falklands? On Diego Garcia, President Trump’s nominee for Secretary of State, Senator Rubio, has said that the deal poses “a serious threat” to United States security. Will the Government undertake to pause the deal to allow for discussions with the incoming US Administration? Was that discussed with President Biden?
More widely on US-UK relations, can the Minister say something about the Government’s engagement with the incoming Administration? President Trump had a British mother; he hugely values that, and he loves Scotland. He may well be the last US President ever to have those credentials. Would it not be a historic act of folly if the UK Government, in their search for a so-called reset with an economically stagnant and divided EU, spurned the opportunity for a close and productive relationship with a pro-British US President?
The Prime Minister is clearly proud of meeting President Xi of China. He declared that he wanted a strong relationship, but when the Statement said, in a rather throwaway phrase,
“and, of course, Hong Kong”,
it sounded as if the snuffing out of freedom by China, contrary to treaty obligations, was a done deal; perhaps it was time to move on. [Interruption.] Someone says it is, but it is never time to move on on the strangling of freedom.
We hear that the Prime Minister mentioned the case of Jimmy Lai. I thank him for that, although the Statement was silent on it. But what assurances did we get in return? Was it not unfortunate that this glad-handing should go on in the week when the heroic Hong Kong 45 await their unjustified sentences?
Meanwhile, President Xi praised Labour’s economic policies. Had some Labour spin doctor sent him a line to take? Perhaps the president should see the comments from the CBI, British retailers and other business voices who say, correctly, that the Budget will destroy job creation and force up prices. Is that the message the Chancellor will be taking to Beijing: tax the living daylights out of wealth creators and innovators? I do not think they will roll out the red carpet in the Great Hall of the People for that. The Chinese are a little shrewder than that—although they may be quietly smiling at one of their international rivals dashing towards economic self-harm.
There was much that could be productive, and which we welcome, in the G20 discussions. However, surely it is now time that this globe-trotting Prime Minister turned his attention to problems at home: promises broken, growth stalling, inflation rising and business frankly reeling from the most brutal tax on jobs ever seen. It may have been high summer down in Rio, but here at home pensioners, farmers, small businesses and savers are wondering what tempest has hit them—and it was storm Starmer, not Storm Bert.
Lord Newby (LD)
I begin by joining from these Benches the tributes to Lord Prescott. With colleagues, I send our condolences to John Prescott’s family and friends.
I completely agree with the Prime Minister when he says that the world is safer when leaders talk. Given the many conflicts and challenges facing the world today, the need for international dialogue has never been greater. The Statement covers a very wide range of issues, of which I would like to refer to just five.
First, on our climate reduction commitments, it is a good start to set the target of an 81% reduction in our greenhouse gas emissions by 2035, but we still need an action plan to do so. The Statement stresses the important role which GB Energy and the National Wealth Fund will play in achieving this, but will the Leader accept that there is currently a complete muddle as to how the National Wealth Fund will operate at all? Its relationship with GB Energy is unclear, to put it mildly. Given the need to maximise investment on green energy from both these bodies, will the Government clarify this situation and present a detailed plan to explain how their laudable aspirations for decarbonising the economy will actually be met? As part of any plan, could the Government say what steps they are taking to ensure that the benefits from new wind farms are not delayed because they cannot get a timely connection to the grid, as was reported today in respect of BP’s Morven wind farm? We need a new sense of urgency in this whole area.
Secondly, we welcome the Government’s decision to join the Global Alliance against Hunger and Poverty, but can the noble Baroness the Leader explain how we can really step up to the plate on this so long as our commitment to aid continues to fall so far short of the 0.7% target? In the absence of any proposal to increase the currently planned 0.5% level, what will joining the global alliance mean? What is going to change?
Thirdly, on Gaza, we share the Government’s call for an immediate ceasefire and a massive increase in the flow of aid to Palestinian civilians, but does the noble Baroness accept that Israel shows not the slightest inclination to move in this direction, and is instead maintaining a programme of massive destruction and of denying aid to Gaza? The UK’s ability to influence events in the region is extremely limited, but one thing we could do would be to recognise Palestine as an independent state. Will the Government stop prevaricating on this issue and recognise Palestine now, without further delay?
Fourthly, on Ukraine, we support the Government in their determination to double down in our support for the Government in Kyiv. We welcome the long-delayed decision to allow the use of Storm Shadow missiles into Russian territory, but we believe that we should also be freeing up frozen Russian assets so that they can be used by Kyiv to support the war effort. This is an area where the Government could take a lead, by calling a summit of European leaders to unblock these assets. Will the Government now do so?
Finally, on China, the Prime Minister has had what he called “frank, constructive and pragmatic” discussions. This is welcome. The Statement refers to Hong Kong but is not specific about exactly what was discussed. Did the Prime Minister raise the case of Jimmy Lai and the 45 jailed pro-democracy campaigners? If so, what was President Xi’s response? When the Prime Minister says that we need to work together with China on delivering growth, what does that mean in practice?
The previous Government succeeded in trashing the UK’s global reputation, and we welcome the Prime Minister’s attempts to rebuild it, but action must now follow the promises he has made if we are really to punch our weight again on the international stage.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful for most of the comments made by both noble Lords. I will do my best to answer as many as I can in the time remaining. I thank them for their comments about our friend John Prescott. John and I were introduced into this House on the same day. My mum still tells with great affection the story of meeting Pauline in the loo and having a chat afterwards. He was a one-off, and we miss him greatly.
I have to say that I thought the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition’s comments about the Prime Minister were really unwarranted and unworthy of him. This country has a role to play on the international stage. We have not really made our weight and our presence felt in the way that we should. The fact that this was the first time in six years that there had been a meeting between the Chinese Premier and a Prime Minister does not serve the best interests of this country. The Leader of the Opposition asked specifically about that, as did the noble Lord, Lord Newby, and we have to co-operate where we can with China; we have to compete where it is appropriate; and, as my noble friend Lord Collins has said on many occasions, there are times when we must challenge as well. The frank discussions that were had were very important. Yes, the first item on the agenda was Jimmy Lai. The world will have seen that was the first issue that the Prime Minister raised, because the cameras were there at that time—although they were ushered out soon after.
The Secretary of State will make a further Statement on the detail of energy policy, but the thing that will make the most difference and will help enormously in bringing down prices and protecting our energy security is GB Energy, where we have been dependent on an international market buffeting us around. We will hear more about that, but in answer to both noble Lords, I say that we will publish our clean power action plan by the end of the year. The noble Lord, Lord Newby, was absolutely right to talk about the national grid connections, which are poor and need to be improved. My right honourable friend will say more on that, but we are working on improving those connections at pace.
I think the noble Lord, Lord True, was a little confused when he talked about return hubs and the Rwanda policy, comparing to what has happened in other countries. There is a real difference between offshoring and outsourcing. This country has had offshoring arrangements with other countries for some time, but when you outsource or offload your immigration policy, that is when there is a significant difference. Given the amount of money spent by this country on the failed Rwanda policy—frankly, more Home Secretaries, Prime Ministers and journalists went to Rwanda than those seeking asylum or who had to have their claims assessed—I will take no lectures from the party opposite about that. What will really make a difference is the kind of international discussion which is being had about tackling the gangs. I was surprised that the noble Lord did not congratulate the Government and the National Crime Agency, because working with other countries is really important. Think of the arrest in the Netherlands last week. He shakes his head at me, but it is a significant step forward and one we hope to see more of.
The noble Lord also asked about the Falkland Islands. I do not know how many times we have to say from this Dispatch Box that the Falkland Islands and the Chagos Islands are completely different. We have made clear our support for the Falkland Islanders time and again, and I am entirely happy to do so again. The sovereignty of the Falkland Islands is not up for debate; it is an absolute commitment. I remind him that it was the previous Government who started negotiations on the Chagos Islands back in November 2022. Those discussions were not concluded, and that put the military base at risk. Under the agreement secured with Mauritius, the UK/US military base on Diego Garcia is now secured. That is the first time in 50 years that it is undisputed and legally secure. That was not the case before.
The noble Lord asked for an assurance about US engagement. I thought that it was clear that it has been the policy of this Government, and will continue to be, that we engage with foreign Governments. He described the Statement as self-congratulatory. It was not. It made clear that we have a place in the world. We have to find our place in the world and show our commitment to negotiations. In the relationship so far, the Prime Minister has met the President and the President-elect; there is ongoing dialogue and discussion and there will continue to be so. The noble Lord should recognise that it is an important relationship for this country, but we also recognise that relationships around the world are crucial as well.
The noble Lord, Lord Newby, asked about aid into Israel and Gaza, and he is absolutely right. There are two sides to this: the hostages must be released—just imagine the agonies of those families not knowing if the hostages are dead or alive or what state they are in—and that is a prerequisite; but, at the same time, given the amount of suffering of the people in Gaza, getting aid in as quickly as possible, particularly with winter coming, is absolutely crucial. Both those issues were discussed at the G20, and we will continue to put pressure at every opportunity possible.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, we now move on to 20 minutes of questions. To get as many noble Lords in as possible, we need questions, not speeches.
Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)
My Lords, the noble Baroness the Leader referred to GB Energy. Are the Government looking at small nuclear reactors?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
I am happy to give a very quick answer to the noble Baroness: yes, they are.
Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)
It was a comprehensive Statement, but it included wording about
“a 2035 target to reduce all greenhouse gas emissions by at least 81% on 1990 levels”.
I know a clean energy mission is coming and we will learn the details there, but could the noble Baroness just explain how that squares with the aim of decarbonising all power by 2030 and an all-electric economy—or is that by 2035? Some of us are getting a bit confused with this and other developments. If we could just know roughly where we are going and whether these things are remotely attainable, that would help.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
Targets are there to be attained and reached, and every effort is being made. The difference is that 2030 is the national target; 2035 is the international agreement reached at the summits. I hope that is helpful.
Lord Rooker (Lab)
While I applaud the Government’s policy of being civilised, nice and supportive of President-elect Trump because we have to work with him, will it be made abundantly clear, without qualification, that this country will not import hormone-treated beef or chlorinated washed chicken?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
From a sedentary position, the noble Lord, Lord Harris, suggests that was an application to be ambassador—I think not.
On all these things, the food safety agency will be involved to ensure that all products must be safe. The issue of chlorinated washed chicken previously caused enormous concern to the public, and that is why labelling is important. But I am sure these issues will be discussed as part of a new trade deal.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)
My Lords, does the noble Baroness accept that this is an appropriate moment to mention Lord Prescott’s involvement in the Kyoto Protocol? I think it was one of his outstanding achievements.
Can the noble Baroness the Leader of the House say a little bit about the forward look for next year’s COP meeting in Belém in Brazil? With a good Brazilian Minister of the Environment who is genuinely committed to stopping the destruction of the Amazon rainforest, there are surely major opportunities now to have a somewhat less contentious approach than we had to this year’s COP. Can she also say a little bit about what we are going to do on food security, because Brazil is very relevant there. Brazil has enormous capacity for agriculture and food production but not a very active programme of development in developing countries; we have a development policy. Can we not make them work a bit better together?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
I thank the noble Lord for his comments about John Prescott and Kyoto. It was one of the things of which he was most proud, and in many ways he was a man ahead of his time—many derided him on that issue but he was proved to be absolutely right. It remained an abiding passion of his right until the very end.
The noble Lord is right that the Brazil COP presents a major opportunity. Discussions are difficult when so many countries are trying to reach an agreement, so how these discussions are managed and how the countries work together is really important. The noble Lord has made the point about how the climate emergency affects every part of our lives in terms of food security and migration; they are interconnected, and that is why the role on the world stage is important. Food security is an issue that will be discussed at the next COP, because it is part and parcel of what is happening to the world with the climate emergency. The noble Lord is also right that the relationship between our country and Brazil has grown in the last few years. Certainly, at this COP, both Brazil and the UK were asked for advice on many occasions. After a very difficult COP this time, we must try to be as optimistic as we can to see what progress can be made in Brazil.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
My Lords, I think that many international and national observers will be surprised that we should have a Prime Ministerial Statement covering COP 29 in which the term “fossil fuels” does not appear once. Sadly, there were many disappointments coming out of COP 29, one of which was the key negotiating item known as the UAE dialogue, which was meant to follow on from the commitment in COP 28 to “transition away from fossil fuels”. What was put forward in Baku was rejected because countries said it was too weak. Saudi Arabia suggested that this was only one of the options which countries had agreed at COP 28. Does the noble Baroness agree that this is not correct? Are the Government considering showing real leadership such as we saw this week from Glasgow City Council—following London, Edinburgh and many other local governments around the country—in calling for backing for a fossil fuel non-proliferation treaty? Surely the UK should be showing leadership in the area of fossil fuels.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
The noble Baroness will have seen the clean power objective—the plan that will be coming out before the end of the year—which I think will address many of these concerns. I understand her concerns about the last COP just gone, but we have to build on this. There are two alternatives: either we give up and walk away saying, “We did not get what we wanted, so why continue?” or we just have to keep going, because each time progress is being made. The noble Baroness will know that nothing happened for 11 years about the issues that were agreed in Paris to proceed on carbon markets; at this COP, we finally agreed the rules, so progress is there. It is not enough, and it is not fast enough, but that is why we have to keep on going. The noble Baroness will see that we are making progress on clean power. To respond to the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, we have already started working with Brazil about what will happen at the next COP. Perhaps I am just an optimist, but I think we just have to try to make progress at every stage we possibly can.
Lord Houghton of Richmond (CB)
My Lords, I heard what the noble Baroness said about the Chagos Islands and Diego Garcia. Surely the strategic issue to be squared within the treaty is not the security of the base but the permissions of the US forces stationed there, particularly the B52 bombers, to prosecute operations from there without being subject to any form of a red card from the Mauritian Government. Can she confirm that the wording of the treaty is sufficiently clear that American operations mounted from Diego Garcia will not in some way be prejudiced?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
The noble and gallant Lord raises an important point. We are confident that the treaty does provide those assurances. That was part of the discussions which took place during the last Government prior to the treaty being signed.
Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
My Lords, it is to be welcomed that the UK will join the Global Alliance Against Hunger and Poverty. However, in the next clause, the Prime Minister’s Statement said it was
“to bring an end to the lost decade in that fight”.
One of the reasons why that fight was being lost is that the richest countries in the world—including the UK, in breach of legislation—have reneged on the commitment they gave on previous development support of 0.7%. Can I read from the Statement that, during this Parliament, this Government will provide more development partnership assistance to such countries to alleviate action on hunger and poverty?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, we would certainly wish to be in a position to do so. That has been the case in past Labour Government responses. We are disappointed by the financial situation that we inherited, with a—dare I say it?—£22 billion black hole, but the noble Lord will know from his experience that this is something to which the Government and the Prime Minister personally are committed. We will do all we can.
Lord Sentamu (CB)
My Lords, I would like to follow the injunction of the Chief Whip by asking a question but, before I do so, perhaps I may join in the wonderful words that have been said about John Prescott. He was an MP in Hull, when Hull was facing terrible education. I remember him persuading us that Archbishop Thurstan School, which was a secondary school, should be renamed—believe it or not—Archbishop Sentamu Academy. He said, “The Government may lose the election, so make sure you get your £45 million ahead of this”, so we applied and we got it. Within a week, the coalition Government came into place and stopped all the school-building programmes that had been planned. The people of Hull want to say to John Prescott, “You have lifted us out of poverty and out of poor education”. For the first time, the Sentamu Academy has pupils leaving Hull to go to different universities and continue education.
In paying tribute to John Prescott’s work on COP, my question to the Leader of the House is: what more lessons could be learned from the way that he tackled poverty, particularly that of children?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
I thank the noble and right reverend Lord for his recollections. Many people have similar, personal recollections of John. One of his great strengths was his ability to negotiate. Many felt that he would play up to his gruff exterior at times, but anyone who had watched him in a room of people disagreeing find some way to get some kind of agreement would have understood the brilliance of the man in that regard. That plays into COPs, in that people go in with their own objectives and do not always get what they want, but the worst thing they can do is walk out of the room, leave and make no progress. The lesson I take from John’s life is never to give up.
Lord Bellingham (Con)
My Lords, the Ukraine war was a recurring theme at the G20, and it looks very much as though this appalling war of attrition will continue for the foreseeable future. Obviously, funding is a key matter, and I noted the point from the noble Lord, Lord Newby, about frozen Russian assets. Can the Minister elaborate on that and give the House some explanation of whether there will be a breakthrough there?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My apologies: I did not address that point in the time I had. Yes, there are ongoing discussions with others to make further progress on that.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, will the Leader of the House confirm that the Prime Minister will ignore the bleatings from those opposite and continue to attend all these important meetings with world leaders? That is far more useful than, for example, Boris Johnson going to Italy to be entertained by Russian oligarchs. Given the record of the Tory Government over the last 14 years, does my noble friend not agree that the statement by the shadow Leader of the House shows a brass neck of which a kettle would be proud?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
I always love my noble friend’s mixed metaphors, but I am not sure that a kettle has a brass neck. If it does, he has found it. One of the things that I find most useful, and I am sure everyone in the House agrees, is that whenever you attend a conference or meeting you make contacts and get to know people. In the few months that he has been Prime Minister, my right honourable friend has had to attend various conferences and summits. When you make good relations with people in the good times and have easy discussions, it makes those difficult discussions and harder negotiations easier in the longer term. There is no way that a bad or absent relationship helps this country. I hear the noise around the House, but I am grateful that we have a Prime Minister who recognises that good relationships with leaders of other countries are useful to this country, in good times and in bad. They promote the national interest, which is extraordinarily important.
Lord Whitty (Lab)
My Lords, I am very grateful for all the appreciation of the life of John Prescott, whom I knew and worked with for 40 years—indeed, I was his Minister in this House for four years. He was always prepared to negotiate, and that is what our current Prime Minister is doing in all these contexts. Negotiation is a multi-faceted thing, and you have to talk to people other than the person in apparent charge. The absence of America from the climate change talks, and its probable withdrawal under President Trump, is a real problem. But President Trump is not all of America. There is importance in keeping our lines open to American states, corporations, individuals and institutions so that pressure can be brought to bring America back into that process, because there are as many in America who support the reduction of fossil fuels as there are in the many countries that were present in Baku.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, my noble friend’s experience, and his work with John Prescott, really shone through in that question. There are some exciting developments in the US on clean energy and clean power. Our relationship is with the Government—whichever Government are in power, we maintain that relationship—but also with, as he says, companies, civic society and the people of the US. We have a lot we can learn from them and share with them. I can give him an assurance that that will continue. It is a very important relationship for this country.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)
My Lords, I agree very much with the Leader of the House on the need for continued international diplomacy, whatever the issues. Lord Prescott indeed played a distinct and valuable part in that work.
China is no longer a developing country, so why is it not contributing directly to the $300 billion fund for loss and damage rather than just counting what it is already doing towards the important climate change objectives agreed at COP?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
The noble Baroness is right that China is still defined as a developing country, but I think we found a greater willingness to engage, and I hope we can make progress from that. That dialogue, and the fact that China is playing such a role and wants to play a greater part, is something that we should be optimistic about and try to build on, rather than reject.
Lord Mackinlay of Richborough (Con)
My Lords, my noble friend Lord True asked a couple of questions. I know that time was short, so I am sure that the noble Baroness will be grateful to be asked the questions once more. What was the cost of sending those 450-odd government attendees to Baku? What did they actually do? Furthermore, can she explain to the elderly people across this country deprived of their winter fuel allowance what amount of their future taxes will be Britain’s contribution towards the $300 billion by 2035?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
The noble Lord’s last question is a calculation that I doubt he or I have made yet. On the conference attendees, the Prime Minister went to show leadership on this, which was important, but there were fewer attendees in the UK delegation than there were last year under the previous Government. I do not have the costs; no doubt, they will be available in due course, and the Secretary of State will make a broader statement.
I think that eight Ministers attended along with officials, the devolved Governments and businesses. It was a wide-ranging group because we want to have that wide range of discussions. To anybody who questions the value of attending in person I say that a conference that runs over by 30 or 35 hours because of the difficulty in reaching agreement is proof that it is not something you can do over a video link, Zoom or Teams. You have to be there in the room and in person to try to make a difference.
Lord Liddle (Lab)
My Lords, should we not be proud of the fact that we now have a Prime Minister who is an internationalist who recognises that by pursuing internationalism we find the solution to so many domestic problems? Is this not a contrast to Boris Johnson, who spent his time insulting our closest friends and partners, and to Rishi Sunak, who could not be bothered to go abroad?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, yes, I am very proud of the role that our Prime Minister is playing in getting Britain back on the world stage as a force for good. That is crucial for the well-being and the interests of this country and for establishing a place in the world that shows what we can do and what we can achieve together. At a time when countries can make the changes they want and the greatest difference only when they co-operate, it is one of the crucial aspects of the premiership of any serious Prime Minister. I reiterate the point I made earlier: when you build up relationships with leaders of other countries, those relationships allow you to have not just the easiest discussions but the difficult discussions. There are lots of difficult issues that need to be discussed internationally, and our Prime Minister is putting himself in the best place to have such discussions.
Defence Programmes Developments
(2 months, 2 weeks ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Goldie (Con)
My Lords, I pay tribute to the marvellous men and women in our Armed Forces, and the civilian cohort who support defence in such an extraordinary manner and help to keep our country safe. Sometimes, in our political badinage, we are inclined to forget that. I know that noble Lords entirely support what defence is doing in our name and for us. I also pay tribute to the Government’s clear resolve to continue supporting Ukraine. I know, again, that this enjoys universal support in the House.
Prompted by the Statement, there are so many questions that I could ask that I am going to try to keep this simple. Looking at the recent antics of the Government, you might think that the pantomime season had arrived early: an embattled Prime Minister and his Chancellor telling business and farmers, “We’re on your side”, to be met with a chorus of, “Oh no you’re not”; an isolated Secretary State for Defra being told, “Look behind you” as the Prime Minister and his Chancellor hover above British farmers with a guillotine.
On defence, the Government’s approach is clearly predicated on the premise that ignorance is bliss. Defence spend will rise to 2.5% of GDP, but we do not know when. Will that decision, when it is known, inform the strategic defence review? We do not know. Will the strategic defence review inform the fiscal imperative of pinning down a date for 2.5% of GDP? We do not know. What impact is the imposition of VAT on school fees going to have on our Armed Forces? We do not know. Is it going to impact on recruitment? We do not know.
What do we know? We know that any significant question asked of the Government about capability—GCAP, the progress of AUKUS, the development of drones—is met with, “Wait for the strategic defence review report next year”. That response might be disappointing to inquisitive nuisances like me but, in fairness, it is a sustainable position if consistently adhered to by the Government—but it is not, because without awaiting any SDR outcome, the Defence Secretary announced in the other place last week that we are scrapping ships, including HMS “Albion” and HMS “Bulwark”, and helicopters. Given the Government’s steadfast fallback on the SDR to explain their reluctance to talk about anything, this is an odd aberration.
Let me explain, however, what makes it even odder. Earlier this year Luke Pollard, now the Armed Forces Minister, said that HMS “Albion” and HMS “Bulwark”,
“play a key role in the Royal Navy’s ability to project power and deploy Royal Marines at scale”.
He even criticised the Conservatives for not ruling out the mothballing of the two amphibious assault ships, which he said in January
“are important for the Royal Navy and should be retained”.
He also said on Twitter in January—this has been reported to me, because I have nothing to do with Twitter—that:
“Mothballing HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark when they still have a decade of planned active service ahead is bad for Plymouth and bad for the Royal Navy”.
I put the following questions to the Minister—or should that be Prince Charming? He is certainly one of the more acceptable faces of the Government. If his honourable colleague Mr Pollard was so right in January, how is he so wrong now? If, as he identified, these ships are a classic illustration of a capability that is not going to be used every day but must be held in readiness, to what extent is the operational mobility of the Marines compromised by this decision? Does the Minister anticipate, ahead of the strategic defence review report, more precipitate announcements about assets being scrapped and decommissioned? Lastly and in particular, will he reassure the House that there are no plans to mothball either of the carriers?
Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)
My Lords, I do not plan to engage in any pantomime discussions, which we are getting perhaps because we are slightly close to Christmas, because it is important that we remember the significance of defence. Something that is appreciated, not just in your Lordships’ House and the other place but by our Armed Forces, is the extent to which the political parties are united in the tributes that we pay to them, and the fact that we recognise their commitment to our country. We also owe them a duty to ensure that defence expenditure means that the equipment for our Armed Forces is the best appropriate and that we are putting the right resources into defence.
We have a strategic defence review where we understand that there is a cap. As the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, said, we do not know at this point when the 2.5% is going to be introduced, so that is an uncertainty. We welcome the fact that the Secretary of State brought forward a Statement on defence programmes and that the Minister is in his place today to answer questions on it, because a lot of questions that require further probing.
The Statement from the Secretary of State seemed to suggest that the answer to a lot of the questions from the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, is, “We didn’t know the state of either the Budget or our Armed Forces when we took office”, and that is why the issues about decommissioning are being brought forward now. Could the Minister say whether the decommissioning of equipment is being done now because the Secretary of State has discovered that the time has come and in fact it would cost more to keep these ships and other pieces of kit operational? How much is the decommissioning going to cost? Has that been taken into consideration? Are the further pieces of equipment part of an ongoing review programme? It is important for us to understand what the Secretary of State and the chiefs are actually looking at.
Beyond that, what scope is there for the Secretary of State, and the Minister of State in your Lordships’ House, to tell us what is planned for defence procurement? In the Statement, the Secretary of State made the repeated point that the Treasury has understood the importance of defence for growth. We agree, yet the Budget increased expenses for the defence industry, like every other business, because of employers’ national insurance. The Minister has reassured me, both in Grand Committee and in private discussion, that the national insurance increase will not impact on the cost of the Armed Forces. We accept that, and it is very welcome. However, presumably the defence industrial base will pay the increased national insurance costs. While the primes might be able to take that as relatively small change, is that true of the sub-primes? What impact will it have on the small and medium-sized enterprises so vital for the defence industry?
I turn to something that could be either a vicious circle or a virtuous circle. If defence is indeed able to contribute to the growth of UK plc and we see our economy grow, that will, by definition, also help with defence expenditure if the 2.5% is part of a growing GDP. But if the defence sector and the economy as a whole go into decline—and there have been suggestions that the Budget might lead to a decline in our national GDP—what impact is that going to have on our defence expenditure? These are some clear questions that we need to understand. They are not intended to be unhelpful, but simply to ask whether we are really giving the support needed to the defence industrial base.
Finally, one of the things we heard across the Chamber in discussions about the G20 and COP summits was the importance of internationalism. The Secretary of State mentioned the Trinity House agreement on British-German defence co-operation. What are we expecting in terms of a Lancaster House refresh? Also, what is His Majesty’s Government’s assessment of the reports in today’s Financial Times that France has begun to step back from its attempts to veto non-EU countries such as the UK being part of the European defence investment programme? That, presumably, will assist the UK in strengthening our defence relations not just with France but with the European Union.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Coaker) (Lab)
I want to start by thanking the noble Baronesses, Lady Goldie and Lady Smith, for their comments and by reiterating that defence is an issue that unites us across this Chamber: we all want the best for our country and for our Armed Forces, and here there is no division between us. I also thank the noble Baronesses for their ongoing support in respect of Ukraine, just as we supported the previous Government when we were in opposition. Again, this House is united in that regard, and I am grateful that reiteration.
I hope the House will bear with me while I also pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Levene, who gave his valedictory speech a few days ago, when I was unable to be in attendance. We all know of the noble Lord’s work on defence, and I want to put my personal thanks to him on record and to wish him well for the future.
The noble Baronesses, Lady Goldie and Lady Smith, paid tribute to our Armed Forces across the globe and they were right to do so. Not everyone in the Chamber will agree with everything I will say today, but there is no division between us on our respect for our Armed Forces and the work they have done, are doing and will do. The noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, was particularly right to remind us of that, and perhaps we should start every debate by saying it, because I know that many members of the Armed Forces read such debates.
The noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, mentioned the 2.5%. As I have said, the pathway to the 2.5% will be laid out at a future fiscal event in the spring. She asked about the sequencing with respect to the SDR. The SDR will come prior to the 2.5%. I hope that clarifies that point.
The noble Baroness mentioned my honourable friend Luke Pollard MP, who campaigned hard for clarity on the landing platform docks to which she referred. He fully supports the Government’s publicising and making it clear that, following the mothballing introduced by the previous Government, neither ship had been to sea since 2023—indeed, HMS “Bulwark” had not since 2017. On current planning, neither ship was due to go to sea again before their planned out-of-service dates of 2033 and 2034. In a sense, the previous Government had effectively got rid of those two platforms themselves, while all this Government have done is to announce something that had already happened.
I would also point out that, as the noble Baroness will know, we have three Bay- class landing ships, “Lyme Bay”, “Mounts Bay” and “Cardigan Bay”, and a further RFA “Argus”, which will do virtually the same for us as the two ships that have been decommissioned. As the defence review will no doubt point out—I see that my noble friend Lord Robertson has walked in—the Royal Marines will play a full and proper part in the future defence of this country, as they have done already this year without the use of those two landing platform docks. They have been in Australia, in Gaza and all over the world, conducting their various activities. As the noble Baroness says, we should be proud of the fact that they have done that—and they have done it with two landing platform docks mothballed in Plymouth.
In answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, what the Government are trying to do is to get rid of outdated equipment that is no longer being used. All of this has been backed by all the chiefs in the Ministry of Defence, who have supported every single thing laid out in these proposals. If noble Lords object to it, they are objecting to something the professionals have told us they support. They support the decommissioning of the landing platform docks and of HMS “Northumberland”, which is beyond repair. We are trying to accelerate the replacement of the Type 23 frigates with eight of the world’s most advanced, Type 26 anti-submarine ships.
The Wave-class tankers are being got rid of because we do not need them any more. Instead of having two that were last at sea in 2017 and 2022, we will have four RFA Wave-class tankers that will provide the same commitment and resource to the Royal Navy as the two that are being decommissioned. I would have thought that was a sensible thing to do.
We are getting rid of Watchkeeper because that system has been in service since 2010 and, according to all the military chiefs, is out of date. The Ukraine war has shown that we need to replace it with something else. The Chinook helicopters are going—14 out-of-date helicopters that have been in service for more than 35 years. They are to be replaced with new, state-of-the-art helicopters. The contract for the Pumas is not being extended and they will have to be renewed in due course.
These pieces of equipment are all currently on the books, and we believe they can be decommissioned and that new equipment can replace them, so that the Armed Forces of this country have the modern equipment they need to prosecute the conflicts we send them to work in on our behalf. I would have thought that all noble Lords could support that. If we do not support such decommissioning, we will have equipment that is 50, 60 or even 80 years old. That is ridiculous. You have to move on and, at times, take difficult decisions because that is the way to ensure that we move forward.
The noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, mentioned the continuity education allowance with respect to providing for the education of the military. The CEA will be increased to be consistent with the current policy of meeting the increase in VAT fees. She will know, as will the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, that, notwithstanding the defence review, the Government have made a clear commitment that the nuclear deterrent and AUKUS will be protected. There might be better ways of doing both, and we would always search for savings within them, but it will not be at the cost of the ability of those systems.
The noble Baroness asked me about the carriers. The thing to point out for this country is that next year the “Prince of Wales” will lead a carrier strike group into the Indo-Pacific with our allies, with ships all around it, taking hard power from this nation with our alliances, to show that we support the international rules-based order, the rule of law and the freedom of navigation on the seas. That is where the carrier the “Prince Wales” will be next year, and I think that is something we should be singing about and talking about. Not only will that be demonstrating hard power, but defence diplomacy will go on all around the world to reassure our allies that this country, along with America and everyone else, stands up for the rules-based order that seems to be threatened by others who seek to undermine it.
The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, asked about procurement. Defence procurement will be at the heart of everything we do. Noble Lords can see the point we are making about new equipment. We hope that much of it will be built within the UK, across the whole of the UK, benefiting all the regions and nations.
On national insurance, the noble Baroness will also know—again to confirm the point I made—the Armed Forces will not pay or will not have a cost, though there may be accounting issues. Of course, national insurance will have an impact on other firms as it will for all firms.
The defence equipment plan before us seeks to decommission equipment that we believe is out of date. New equipment can be better placed to meet the threats we face, and it is those new threats that we need to face: it is the wars of the future we need to fight, not the wars of the past.
Lord Craig of Radley (CB)
My Lords, I wonder whether the chiefs would have been happy to accept these cuts, as the Minister says, if there had been 2.5% available now—it is against the amount of money that is available. In addition to the equipment that has been taken, there are serious shortfalls in personnel, particularly engineers. What steps are the Government taking to overcome these particular shortfalls?
Lord Coaker (Lab)
That is a really good question. On the first point about spending, the noble and gallant Lord will know that, notwithstanding the amount in the budget—there is 2.3% at the moment, and we have laid out and talked about the pathway to 2.5%—whatever amount of money the defence chiefs have to spend, they will always want to spend it in the best possible way. We have discussed with them a way of doing that ensuring that we have the newest and best possible equipment available to our Armed Forces, and that at times will mean decommissioning older equipment.
On the noble and gallant Lord’s second point, in terms of retention payments for aircraft engineers, as part of the Government's commitments to renew the nation’s contract with those who have served, eligible tri-service aircraft engineers will be given £30,000 when they sign up for an additional three years of service. From April 2025, this will be applicable to around 5,000 personnel in total. That is one practical way we are trying to deal with the specific point the noble and gallant Lord raised.
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)
Can I press the noble Lord on the number of fast jets that are currently in service and are expected to be in service, say, over the next five years, and also on the number of fast jets pilots that we are training? In one constituency alone, the Vale of York, which I had the honour to represent for 13 years, we had at that time RAF Linton-on-Ouse, RAF Leeming, Dishforth airfield and Topcliffe airfield as well, so I hope he will give me some encouragement that we are going to be on track for a number of fast jets going forward.
Lord Coaker (Lab)
We certainly will be purchasing a number of fast jets—the exact number will obviously be subject to debate, but we expect a number of F35Bs to be purchased. On the training of pilots, which the noble Baroness raised, the training and retention of pilots is something for which we have an ongoing review within the Ministry of Defence; we are looking at that very carefully, but she is right to raise that as an issue.
Lord Stevens of Birmingham (CB)
My Lords, a bigger reason for the number of Royal Fleet Auxiliary ships stuck alongside is not the age of the vessels but the absence of seafarers to staff them. Can the Minister update the House on the ongoing industrial action affecting the Royal Fleet Auxiliary, which is obviously having a significant impact on the Royal Marines and the Royal Navy?
Lord Coaker (Lab)
I thank the noble Lord for raising the point about the industrial dispute affecting the Royal Fleet Auxiliary. The only thing I can say is that discussions are ongoing. We obviously hope it can be resolved to everyone’s satisfaction in due course.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)
My Lords, the Statement says that “difficult decisions” are required. Should those difficult decisions—or at least, difficult considerations—not include giving serious consideration as to whether we should continue a nuclear weapons programme? Philip Stephens, a contributing editor at the Financial Times wrote in a piece this week that the defence review, as currently constituted, is
“a necessary start, but an inadequate one”
to considering our defence policy. Stephens says in that article:
“A brave government would also ask whether it is wise to spend so many billions on a nuclear system maintained by the US”.
Is this a brave Government?
Lord Coaker (Lab)
We are certainly a brave Government, but it has been a consistent policy of whatever Government have been in power to support the nuclear deterrent. The nuclear deterrent will continue; we will renew the nuclear deterrent. I just say to the noble Baroness, who is quite entitled to the opinion she holds, that I think it incumbent upon us to do that, given the threats we are seeing from President Putin—the irresponsible threats at the present time raise the prospect of it. Let us be clear about this: we support the nuclear deterrent, and we support its renewal. That is an important part of our defence.
Lord Houghton of Richmond (CB)
I draw Members’ attention to my relevant registered interest as a member of the Thales advisory board. I offer some sympathy to the Government regarding their defence inheritance, which must appear to be an appalling mismatch between requirements and resources.
When I was in the MoD, when we needed to save money, it often had to be found where savings could be made—that is, in money that was uncommitted—as opposed to where savings should be found, often on money that was committed on historic mistakes. Can the Minister therefore confirm that the process applied has been truly rigorous in respect of operational priorities? Within those priorities, the Minister mentioned the deletion of Watchkeeper. Did its deletion recognise the potential associated sensitivities to defence export sales in the Middle East, including sensitivities that involve GCAP?
Secondly, the Statement mentions a
“fully fledged national armaments director”.
Can the Minister perhaps offer the House some insight into what is the defining element of this fully fledged national armaments director? Particularly, what will define his relationship with the defence industrial primes? Will it be a relationship that ensures that, going forward, defence capabilities are principally bought in the context of benefit to the taxpayer and defence as opposed to shareholders of defence industrial primes?
Lord Coaker (Lab)
First, we recognised the sensitivities around the deletion of Watchkeeper and they were a consideration. In terms of operations, the decisions around decommissioning were made in a way that would not compromise operations. The chiefs were clear to us that operations would not be compromised by any of the decommissioning taking place.
The point about the national armaments director is an extremely important one. The national armaments director is to give greater strength to the idea that we need to rebuild our arms industry and ensure that the stockpiles we have are of sufficient size to meet the threats of the future. In doing that, the relationship with the defence industry—whether the primes or the smaller companies—will be important. The important point is that it is not to be something that is in the interests of the shareholders but something that we need to discuss, which is that it is to be in the national interest and in the interests of our international alliances. That is what is important to us all. We have to have an armaments director which drives forward an arms industry which gives us the weapons and stockpiles we need.
In answer to the point from the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, I have not seen the Financial Times article with respect to the European defence industrial strategy, but that is certainly something we have been discussing with our European friends.
Lord Mountevans (CB)
My Lords, in concluding his remarks the Minister pointed to the need to be prepared for future threats. The United Kingdom has extensive infrastructure within the contiguous exclusive economic zone around these islands, be that oil and gas pipelines, gas and electricity interconnectors, or the vital undersea cables that are so important for the City and the two-thirds of financial services and professional business activity conducted outside London. Britain’s leading industry is very vulnerable. In view of the events last week in the Baltic and the fact that there are three warships around this possibly offending Chinese vessel down off the Skagerrak, and the continuing grey zone activity of Russian vessels around our coast and this vital infrastructure, is the Minister content that we have it adequately protected for the future and for today?
Lord Coaker (Lab)
That is certainly one of the questions the defence review is looking at: how we protect underwater cables, pipelines, et cetera. We are considering the capability that we have to deal with that. I hope I can reassure the noble Lord. I was in Copenhagen last week, where we discussed with the Northern Group of states what more we could do together to protect underwater cables and work together. Indeed, without going into too much detail, we have conducted a number of operations together to try to protect and deter with respect to these particular cables. He will also know that there has been other activity around the world where we have also sought to defend those cables from those who would do us harm and undermine the ability of our industry, and that of others, to operate in the way that it should be able to.
Mental Health Bill [HL]
Monday 25th November 2024
(2 months, 2 weeks ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Mental Health Bill [HL] 2024-26 View all Mental Health Bill [HL] 2024-26 Debates Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Merron
That the Bill be now read a second time.
Relevant document: Report of the Joint Committee on the Draft Mental Health Bill, Session 2022-23. Welsh legislative consent sought.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)
My Lords, it is an honour to move the Second Reading of the Mental Health Bill—a Bill which Members of both Houses have been waiting for and working on for some considerable time.
There is much consensus that our mental health laws are not fit for the 21st century. Many elements of the Mental Health Act 1983 are outdated. Its operation is associated with racial disparities and poor care for people with a learning disability and autistic people, and it fails to give patients an adequate voice. Modernising the Mental Health Act is a vital manifesto commitment for this Government, so I am proud to introduce reforms that will ensure that care is appropriate, compassionate and effective; give patients more say over their care; improve support to help patients understand and exercise their rights; and protect the safety of the public, staff and patients.
The wait has been too long. I know that a number of noble Lords were involved when the Act was last amended substantially in 2007, but, although attitudes to mental health have, thankfully, changed since then, the law has not kept up. The Bill is the product of the combined effort over some years by Members of both Houses and many outside Parliament, and all parties have rightly come together to support it. Sincere thanks are due to many, but I will highlight just a few, starting with Members of your Lordships’ House who served on the pre-legislative scrutiny committee in 2022: the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, as chair, as well as the noble Baronesses, Lady Barker, Lady Berridge, Lady Hollins and Lady McIntosh of Hudnall, and the noble Lord, Lord Bradley. All have given a huge amount of time, expertise and energy, which has informed and motivated this Government to strengthen the Bill. I confirm that we have improved the previous draft Bill by heeding the committee’s recommendations to include guiding principles and advance choice documents in this revised Bill.
I pay tribute to the former Prime Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady May, whom I had the pleasure of meeting earlier today with the Secretary of State. The noble Baroness, Lady May, identified the need for modernisation and set up the independent review of the Act in 2017. Without this, we would not be here today. I thank the independent review chair, Sir Simon Wessely, and his vice-chairs, including the noble Baroness, Lady Neuberger, who made the case for change and provided the blueprint to follow. I know they will continue to be champions for reform. I also thank the many stakeholders and parliamentarians who have engaged with us ahead of Second Reading and over the years, and those with lived experience, who have bravely told their stories.
The Bill will complement other major reforms that this Government have announced. The Budget announced £26 million to be invested in new mental health crisis centres to reduce pressure on accident and emergency departments. To cut mental health waiting lists, we will go further still, recruiting an additional 8,500 staff. As part of our mission to reduce the number of lives lost to suicide, these NHS workers will be specially trained to support people at risk. We will improve support for young people, with walk-in hubs in every community, making support workers more accessible to children, and a specialist mental health professional based in every school. The NHS has asked every provider of mental health services to review its offer for serious mental illness. By focusing on early intervention—prevention is the key—we seek to prevent people reaching crisis and to reduce the need for detentions in the first place.
I turn to what the Bill seeks to achieve. The Mental Health Act is there to protect people. Its core purpose is, and will remain, to be able to intervene, detain and treat when someone is so unwell that they present a risk to themselves or others. The overall aims of these reforms are to improve the care and treatment of people with severe mental illnesses when detained under the Act, to improve patient outcomes and recovery, and to protect the public, patients and staff. The existing Act confers certain rights on people who are detained, including the right to appeal their detention at a tribunal and a right to an advocate as well as to a medical second opinion in certain circumstances. The Bill seeks to strengthen and expand these rights. It will require the inclusion in the statutory code of practice of the new and revised guiding principles recommended by the independent review, which in turn informs professional practice around the Act. By doing this, we aim to improve things for patients and support a change in culture.
We are strengthening and clarifying the detention criteria to make clear that people will be detained only if they pose a risk of serious harm to themselves and/or others, and if there is a reasonable prospect that they will benefit from the proposed treatment. We are reforming the use of community treatment orders—CTOs—to reflect the revised criteria, to increase oversight and scrutiny of decision-making, and to improve the transfer of patients under a CTO from hospital to community services. We are also introducing statutory care and treatment plans for patients detained under the Act, except when under very short-term sections, to provide a clear plan for a patient’s recovery and a path to discharge.
Where the patient’s voice has previously been unheard, the Bill will place them at the centre of their care and treatment. We are introducing a new clinical checklist requiring clinicians to, as far as possible, involve patients in decisions about their care and to take their feelings and wishes into account.
We are making sure that patients know they can create an advance choice document and that appropriate support is available to help them do so, allowing those at risk of detention under the Act to outline their wishes and decisions while they are well. This document helps them retain control over decisions about their admission, care and treatment if they later become too unwell to communicate these preferences. Last week I saw and heard about the differences that these can make on my visit to the South London and Maudsley, where the words of welcome from service users about these measures highlighted the contribution that advance choice documents can make, particularly to tackle racial inequalities.
We are allowing patients to choose a nominated person to look out for them and their interests when detained and will be increasing their powers. The independent mental health advocacy service was a notable success of the 2007 reforms to the Act. It is a thriving sector, with advocates and volunteers working for excellent organisations such as VoiceAbility, making sure that people are involved with decisions about their care.
We are now looking to expand these services in two ways. First, we are making sure that patients who come into hospital voluntarily can access an advocate to help them understand their rights and be involved in decisions about their care. Secondly, for detained patients, access to advocacy will be on an opt-out basis, ensuring that patients are proactively offered this support when detained to improve advocacy uptake among detained patients.
I know only too well that noble Lords are acutely aware that for some people with a learning disability and autistic people, detention is both non-therapeutic and unnecessarily long. In order to better meet people’s needs in the community, we will limit detention so that people with a learning disability and autistic people can no longer be detained beyond 28 days, unless they have a co-occurring mental health condition that requires hospital treatment. This will affect only civil patients. Hospital will remain an option for those in contact with the criminal justice system, where the only alternative to detention in hospital is prison.
For people with a learning disability and autistic people, the right measures and support are very much needed alongside this change. That is why the Act will require that when people are detained, there is a care (education) and treatment review to be given due weight in decision-making. We are also creating new duties on commissioners to hold registers to help manage the risk of people going into crisis and being detained, and to better meet the needs of people through appropriate community services.
I am grateful for the work of the Ministry of Justice Minister, my noble friend Lord Timpson, and his department, to improve access to mental health care and treatment for people in the criminal justice system. The Bill will end the use of both prison and police cells as places of safety. It will end the use of remand for own protection under the Bail Act where the court’s sole concern is the defendant’s mental health.
We will introduce a statutory 28-day time limit for transfers from prison and other places of detention to hospital when a person requires treatment for their mental health under the Act. We will also introduce a subset of conditional discharge, called supervised discharge, to support the small number of restricted patients who are no longer benefiting from being in hospital.
We are aware that there have been concerns about public safety and are therefore ensuring that our reforms do not weaken the ability to detain people who could pose a risk of serious harm to themselves or others. I assure your Lordships’ House that these reforms do not change the core function of the Mental Health Act. Clinicians will remain able to intervene, to detain, and to treat whenever someone with severe mental illness presents a risk to themselves or others.
We are confident that this is the right package of reforms. However, the Bill further strengthens the measures in respect of public protection. The Bill improves on the previous draft Bill by: first, accepting the Joint Committee’s recommendation to remove “how soon” from the new detention criteria, making sure the Act cannot be misinterpreted to mean that a harm must be imminent to justify detention and early intervention; secondly, introducing a new requirement for the responsible clinician to consult another person when they are making a decision about whether to discharge a patient; and thirdly, strengthening the code of practice’s guidance on discharging patients and promoting the need for discharge planning tailored to the individual needs of patients and their circumstances. We will consult on changes to the code.
I am very grateful to noble Lords across the House for their ongoing support for and interest in the Bill. It has been a long time coming, and I know that we all want to get this on the statute book, which is why it is a priority piece of legislation for this Government. There has been a failure to reform, but today we begin to change that. I look forward to what I know will be a collegiate and constructive debate, which many will follow—inside both Houses and outside. I beg to move.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, I begin by extending my gratitude to the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, for introducing the Bill into your Lordships’ House and for her very clear exposition of its contents. It is a Bill that we on these Benches warmly welcome. That welcome should not come as a surprise because, as the noble Baroness said, the Bill before us is the successor to a draft Bill prepared by the previous Government, a draft that owed its origin to my noble friend Lady May, on whose watch a review of the 1983 Act was initiated some seven years ago during her time as Prime Minister. Much of what we see laid out here is the product of diligent work carried out by Professor Sir Simon Wessely and his review committee, as well as the Joint Committee of both Houses, so ably chaired by my noble friend Lady Buscombe.
The passage of the Bill presents us with a golden opportunity to address both the current state of mental health provision and the law that governs it. The last major update of the Act took place in 2007 under the previous Labour Government. That may not sound like a long time ago but, as we shall no doubt hear from others, experience gained in the intervening years has taught us that a further update is indeed warranted if we are to ensure that the Act remains relevant and appropriate, and that its powers are proportionate.
Wherever the state uses its powers to deprive an individual of their liberty, the necessary safeguards must be in place so that those powers are used sparingly, proportionately and with the highest regard for human dignity and autonomy. That is why the Bill is so important. Since the last set of changes to mental health legislation in 2007, the number of people being detained under the Mental Health Act has grown exponentially. In fact, since 1983, the numbers have nearly doubled to a total of over 52,000 new recorded detentions between 2023 and 2024.
Within that total, we have also seen a stark disparity in the classifications of those being detained. Black people are 3.5 times more likely to face detention under the Act. Shockingly, to my mind, there are currently over 2,000 people with autism and learning disabilities detained in mental health hospitals across the country. I was equally shocked by the realisation that people with autism can be detained even if they do not have a mental health condition, leading to disproportionate, burdensome and wholly inappropriate treatment.
These issues occupied centre stage in the Wessely review, which proposed the formal recognition of four key principles that should from now on govern both theory and practice in this area of the law. The principles are: choice and autonomy; least restriction on liberty; therapeutic benefit; and the person as an individual. The previous Government fully accepted these four principles and—giving life, as it were, to those principles—the draft Bill set out to make a number of important changes. It strengthened the rights of patients with a learning disability, it gave patients greater autonomy in choosing how they wish to be treated, it introduced duties on commissioners to better understand and support people with a learning disability or autism, who may be at risk of crisis, and it sought to update community treatment orders, which are one of the key drivers of racial disparities in the numbers of people subject to restrictions under the Act.
It is therefore very pleasing indeed to see this Government’s firm commitment to enacting exactly these reforms, and I, for one, hope that as the Bill proceeds, we can come together as a House to implement and, where necessary, improve this hugely beneficial set of changes.
With consensus as the thread that, happily, we expect to run through our consideration of the Bill, there are nevertheless certain themes within it that are likely to require our particular attention. The first of these is community treatment orders. CTOs were first introduced in the Mental Health Act 2007. The Joint Committee on the earlier draft Bill was very clear that CTOs had been widely overused and that they are one of the leading causes of the racial disparities that I referred to a minute ago. The Bill before us makes a number of changes to the criteria governing the use of CTOs, all of them designed to support two of the key principles in the Bill: those of least restriction and therapeutic benefit.
As far as they go, these changes are desirable. However, the Bill stops short of including the full suite of recommendations made by the Wessely review. The Centre for Mental Health has raised this as a key concern. It points out that there is still no persuasive evidence of the benefits of CTOs. Against that background, it argues that a number of checks and balances are needed on the use of CTOs in future, over and above those already in the Bill. In particular, it notes that the committee recommended a full statutory review of the use of CTOs to report within a fixed timeline, which, on the face of it, is the least that we should be doing. I think we will want to debate in Committee why the Government have not felt it appropriate to go as far as the Joint Committee and the independent review recommended in this area.
The next important theme is children and young people. According to NHS data—and this was highlighted by the noble Lord, Lord Darzi, in his recent review—932 children in mental health units were subject to restrictive interventions in 2023-24. In total, more than 84,000 restrictive interventions were carried out on these children, which is a 51% increase from the year before. This is the highest number of restrictive interventions recorded since figures were made available in 2019, and that is despite the number of children in mental health units appearing to decrease.
We have a duty to use the Bill as an opportunity to identify ways of reducing such restrictive interventions and using them more humanely and more proportionately. Two years ago, the Government launched the Oliver McGowan training for NHS staff to help them better deal with young patients with autism. Noble Lords may remember that this was in response to a truly harrowing and appalling set of occurrences that ended with the death of a young man. It is fair to say that the case shook the health service to its core. I believe we have in the Bill the opportunity to take forward those lessons so as to protect children who may be at risk from unwarranted detentions.
The independent review and the Joint Committee had much to say about how treatment of children under the Mental Health Act could be improved. Unfortunately, by no means all those recommendations have found their way into the Bill. One such omission relates to the inappropriate placement of under-18s into adult wards or facilities that can sometimes be miles away from their home. The Joint Committee found that in each of the years 2016-17, 2017-18 and 2018-19, over 1,000 children were placed out of area, and that in 2020, 21% of children and young people were placed as in-patients more than 50 miles from their home.
It is perfectly obvious that being taken to an unfamiliar environment in a place far away from friends and family is almost guaranteed to exacerbate the issues young people face when experiencing a mental health crisis. On top of this, data from the Care Quality Commission showed that in 2021, 249 children and young people admitted for mental health treatments were housed on adult wards for more than 48 hours, some for a good deal longer than that. These are uncomfortable figures; I hope noble Lords on all sides of the House will want to ensure that, through this Bill, we take all possible steps to bear down on the scale of these problems and strengthen the protections afforded to children and young people.
One of the core themes that has remained prominent throughout the process that has led to this Bill is that of choice: giving patients as great a degree of autonomy as possible in how they are treated and maximising their ability to determine what happens to them if they are detained. In that regard, I think the Bill succeeds on many counts, but one measure recommended by the Joint Committee was that there should be a statutory right to an advance care document for every patient who has been or may be detained under the Mental Health Act. The Bill, as it stands, does not follow up on this recommendation. Instead, it places a duty on NHS England and integrated care boards to make information regarding such documents available to patients. I do not doubt that this is a beneficial reform, but we should debate whether it goes quite as far as it usefully might. Guaranteeing patients and service users the chance to state and record their preferences for care and treatment plays directly into the key principles of choice, autonomy and treating every person as a rounded individual—so what are the barriers to doing that?
There are a whole host of detailed issues which we will need to cover in Committee. The final, major area I want to touch on is that of the role played by the police. Inevitably, circumstances arise in which the police are required to become involved with people who may be a risk to themselves or to others. There is a strong feeling that encounters with the police are far too common for people with mental health conditions. As the independent review and the National Police Chiefs’ Council have pointed out, the presence of the police in situations where a mental health issue poses a risk of serious injury or death can be counterproductive. In its written submission to the Joint Committee, the Metropolitan Police stated that:
“Our officers simply cannot provide the specialist care needed, exposing both patients and officers to extreme risks”.
The NPCC has also expressed its concern that the role of the police in mental health pathways must be reduced.
It is welcome that the Bill goes some way to addressing this. Clause 46 removes police stations and prisons as places of safety, thereby preventing patients experiencing mental health crises from being locked up inappropriately. However, there is a potential knock-on effect that we should talk about in Committee. Well-intentioned as the provision is, it could well lead to a rise in people being admitted to accident and emergency departments, escorted by the police, and having to wait in crowded spaces with the lack of the necessary, specialised facilities until they can be assessed by clinicians. In this environment, the risk of harm could well be multiplied. We need to ask how this risk can best be mitigated. I fear that any realistic answer will need to involve resources, by which I mean taking steps to ensure that the requisite arrangements are made for NHS trusts to deal with an increase in the number of mental health patients being admitted to hospitals as places of safety. This is not an easy set of issues, but it is a subject that we cannot duck.
Parliament must see to it that wrongful, inappropriate and untherapeutic detentions of those undergoing a mental health crisis are brought to an end. The Bill provides us with a necessary and welcome opportunity to transform the treatment of those with mental health conditions and to bring both doctrine and practice well and truly into the 21st century. Along with my noble friend Lord Kamall, I look forward to working with the Minister and with noble Lords on all sides of the House to scrutinise and—where we can—improve the Bill’s provisions. Many thousands of the most vulnerable members of our society are depending on us to do so.
Baroness Barker (LD)
My Lords, I declare an interest as a member of an advisory panel for Rethink Mental Illness.
The House of Lords is an institution that is frequently criticised. Those of us who are often called on—not least by schoolchildren—to defend it often find ourselves having to give examples of work it has done which would not have been done by anybody else. As a veteran of the pre-legislative and post-legislative scrutiny of the Mental Capacity Act, the pre-legislative scrutiny of the Mental Health Act 2007 and all the various bits of subsequent legislation, I think that we have arrived at the point with this piece of legislation where we can make a defensible case for the unique contribution of this place to legislative progress. As the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, was generous enough to say in her introduction, there are a lot of us in this place who have got form on this. Specifically, there are an awful lot of us who have detailed knowledge of all those bits of legislation and of the workings of the 1983 Act.
If the noble Baroness will not mind me saying, we come to these pieces of work in two minds. It is great to have the opportunity to go back, look at what we did in the past and rectify some of the mistakes. However, it is always also deeply frustrating because, in truth, here we are again putting another patch on the 1983 legislation. We will never get the mental health system that we so badly and desperately need until we do more than that.
Having said that, along with other noble Lords, I congratulate Sir Simon Wessely and his team, and specifically the working groups that worked with him. If any noble Lord who has been inundated with briefings from all the interested parties, as we all have been, is ever in doubt about a subject, they should go back to the report of the working groups to understand how people have arrived at their conclusions and what we should perhaps strive for. I say that as the person who sat here night after night during the passage of the 2007 legislation, arguing for an advance choice document against a lot of entrenched opposition, not least from practitioners. It is really important that we use the privilege of our position—I mean that: privilege—to work away at this legislation as we did with that so that, perhaps uniquely, we can make some progress.
Those of us on these Benches will support anything that makes clinicians have to be more accountable and transparent in their work. We can have any legislation we like but, until such time as we call decision-makers to account, we are not going to get anywhere on behalf of people who are detained. They may be detained for their own good. They may be detained for the safety of others, but they are none the less detained. Their opportunities to challenge the decisions made are quite rare. As ever in this House, in the end, when we are coming to a decision, we always have a duty to defend human rights. Human rights legislation exists to defend the people that nobody in society likes. Quite often, that means the people subject to this legislation.
On the issue of principles against the Bill, having gone through the Mental Capacity Act, and having then subsequently reviewed it and its implementation, with serried ranks of professionals coming in to tell us that they just ignored the principles which had been in that Bill since the beginning, I am not overjoyed that they are going to be stuck into a code of conduct. This will surprise the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, not a lot. I do not honestly think it will make any difference at all. They are very good principles but, unless and until they are in the Bill and practitioners believe that their decisions will be judged against them, they will be useless.
Lots of other people can speak about learning disabilities far better than I can. I want to say just two things. First, the noble Earl, Lord Howe, talked about training professionals in relation to young people. Increasingly, people are diagnosed with learning difficulties, and particularly autism, as older adults. We should listen to what the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, has been telling us for years and require all mental health practitioners to have training in the diagnosis of learning disabilities and autism. That is the one thing that would make a swift and tangible difference in this area.
Secondly, the alignment—or non-alignment—of the Mental Capacity Act and the Mental Health Act has been problematic. We have known about that for more than 20 years. To everybody who knows about it, I simply say “Bournewood gap”. To those who do not, I say that the two pieces of legislation are built on completely different bases. Two people, sitting side by side, can be treated according to one or the other depending on who is in the room at the time. If you get banged up under one, you have quite a lot of rights; if you get banged up under another, you do not. I understand why Sir Simon and his team thought that it would be too long and too difficult a job to sort this out. It was much better that we carried on to do some of the more urgent things in this Bill, but we have to go back and do it. Other jurisdictions are going down that path.
The one thing that the noble Baroness and the Government have to do is give a commitment that they will monitor that and, upon the passage of this Bill, put in place a system of funded research about the change to bring in what is known as fusion legislation. If we do not, we will just consign a load of people to being wrongfully treated, so I hope that she will do that.
In a similar vein, Dr Lucy Series and Luke Clements, who are academics and practitioners who have worked on this for a long time, sent us a briefing that explains in characteristic detail the deficiencies that arise under Section 73 of the Care Act 2014. It means that people who are being treated in private settings, even though their treatment was commissioned by the NHS, are not being properly protected by the Human Rights Act. They have written a very short but effective paper for us, and I simply ask the noble Baroness to commit to a meeting of interested Peers—there are a number of us—with Dr Series and Luke Clements, so that we can deal with that. Can we stop treating people differently just because of the person or organisation that happens to be providing their care?
On CTOs, we are not allowed to wear T-shirts in here but, if we were, I would be sorely tempted to wear one that reads, “Told you so”, because we did. In 2006-07, we sat here night after night saying, “You are telling us that this is not going to be used very often or used disproportionately against some people. That is not true, is it?” It really was not. Because of that and the racial disparities, I and others were for a long time of the view that CTOs really should go because they were enabling bad practice by practitioners. What changed my mind was listening to patients and their families, because there are a small group of people for whom CTOs work, are the least restrictive option and are beneficial. We should therefore keep them. I am reluctant to admit that, but we really have to change all the processes around them to make sure that practitioners are sticking to the intention.
Advance choice documents are another “I told you so”. I am so pleased that they have done what enlightened practitioners said they would back in 2005-06; they have improved care for people. I am indebted to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, for telling the joint scrutiny committee about the work that was done in the field of palliative care to make sure that advance choice documents are electronic, and therefore more widely available, and to minimise excuses on the part of practitioners: “Well, I didn’t know about it”. A team from King’s has been looking at that. I hope that, during our discussions, we can go into that in greater depth. I do not quite know how that will work, but it is important.
On prisons and police stations, we were very lucky in the joint scrutiny committee because one of our members was an A&E doctor so we talked about this quite a lot. The truth is that people will still turn up in A&E because the lights are on. That is where people in distress will go. There will also be people who, faced with somebody who is having an episode, still call the police, because they are frightened and do not know what to do. During the passage of the Bill, I hope that the Minister will explain how £26 million will deal with what is quite a big problem and that we look at the transition to the police stepping back to leave everybody else to deal with people who, at the point they meet them, are very ill and disturbed and who need help.
Finally, some of us argued strongly for a mental health commissioner. That was not because we wanted another commissioner—we have lots of commissioners for things already—but because we were trying to deal with a key issue. We do not have a system of mental health care or joined-up services. We have episodes of care, some of which are very good at the time but do not work together as a system. After the hours that we have sat in this place and looked at the various different bits of legislation in great detail, we do not understand why we lock up more people, year on year, and what the best use is of the resources available—they are not infinite—not only to deal with people who are experiencing real crises and trauma but to ensure that we use the best of what we have to put as much as we can into services that are also preventative.
It is a great privilege to be in this House. It is an enormous relief that we can do our work in great detail and largely away from the pressure of headlines, which I know people in the other place always feel whenever there is a failure. It may well be that, during the passage of the Bill, something in the media changes the national mood on this, but our job, privilege and responsibility is to think of the people who are in the worst possible place under this legislation and to do the best possible job that we can for them to make sure that we get the best out of this legislation.
Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)
My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the previous three speakers. I declare my interests as a non-executive member of the NHS England board and 45 years as a registered mental health nurse.
I warmly welcome the long-overdue reform of the Mental Health Act and congratulate the new Government on bringing it swiftly in their term. I appreciate the opportunity that the Minister has taken in holding discussions about the Bill prior to Second Reading and offering to consult further about potential amendments to strengthen and clarify particular sections. Modernising the 1983 legislation provides a real opportunity to reduce injustices in implementation and provide equitable support for people suffering from a mental health crisis, giving them more autonomy and choice and including a new right for service users to choose a nominated person to advocate for their interests.
First, I am pleased that the Bill aims to end the unnecessary detention of those with autism or learning disabilities, yet I share the concerns of the Royal College of Psychiatrists and other professional bodies that further clarity is needed around assessment and treatment. For many, the proposed 28-day limit for assessment may not be long enough to reach a comprehensive diagnosis, especially considering that those with autism often present with additional complexities. It may be difficult to admit, assess and support some patients within the time limit outlined in the Bill, risking recurrent use of overstretched A&E or admission and detention under Part III of the 1983 Act should there be safety concerns. The NHS Confederation drew on the example of New Zealand, where similar changes to mental health legislation saw a temporary increase in patients being sent
“to prison, left neglected in the community or admitted to forensic facilities as secure patients”.
Failing to allow for thorough assessment may worsen mental health care provision and further racial inequalities, as currently Part III detentions disproportionally affect black men.
To combat this, an emphasis on continuity of community care would cut the number of people admitted for an assessment, while ensuring that patients remain safe within the community, yet there is a chronic lack of community-based workers, with a third of all nursing vacancies being in mental health services. I therefore ask the Government to provide clarity on how they will ensure that those who, in the past, would have been detained for assessment and treatment will still be able to obtain a full diagnosis and the support that they deserve, preferably without hospital admission. Careful consideration of workforce planning in the community for social work and allied health professions, as well as psychiatrists, general practitioners and nurses, should form a significant part of the preparation for this Bill’s implementation; then patients and cares could more often be appropriately assessed, treated and cared for by both mental and physical health services, in community and primary care settings, thus avoiding admission.
The Bill offers an opportunity to improve support for those under the age of 18 who are admitted formally under the 1983 Act, yet it is estimated that 31% of under-18s are—thank goodness—admitted informally to hospital for assessment and treatment. I fully support the introduction of new statutory care and treatment plans, but I ask the Minister if they could be extended to those admitted informally, if it is a correct solution.
The Government are right to state that these plans will encourage patients to engage with treatment towards their discharge and beyond. Care and treatment early in a person’s life provides better outcomes than later intervention, so extending these plans to the significant number of informal patients aged under 18 could provide a solid foundation for later life. Additionally, ensuring the availability of quality community services would also reduce childhood detention. I therefore ask the Government to confirm their plans to encourage this early intervention via both the community and the care and treatment plans.
The Bill would be strengthened if it were to improve the environment for young patients. I will not repeat what has been so ably explained by the noble Earl, Lord Howe. However, we really ought to move to a statutory requirement that young people are not allowed to be kept in adult wards for treatment in crisis, or treated miles from home.
There must also be an exploration of the place of parental responsibility before the Bill is finalised. The introduction of a “nominated person” as well as “advance choice documents” are commendable steps to improve agency for those detained under the Mental Health Act. Some young people will choose not to include their parents for either of these. I therefore ask whether the Government can provide clarity as to how this will function with expectations of parental responsibility.
Healthcare professional bodies support the principle of ensuring that prisoners with severe mental health conditions are swiftly transferred to hospital, where they can receive proper treatment, but I have questions of practicality for the Government. What is the plan to ensure capacity in the in-patient sector? What happens to those who clearly cannot be properly treated in the in-patient sector, or who are a significant danger to others on the ward? As a former ward sister, I know that this is a real question from people working in those environments at the moment.
Will there be an assessment at the end of a patient’s treatment to determine whether they are recalled to prison or given a community treatment order if it is safe to do so and better for their mental health? I would welcome working with the Government to get clarity on this issue, particularly in relation to a code of practice.
As I have already said, continuity of care in the community will be essential to prevent unnecessary detention and to provide support to patients after detention. I therefore ask the Government to clarify the implementation timetable for the Bill in order to ensure that current staff have time to receive the development needed and that the necessary new staff are recruited.
I ask too whether there should be a research investigation into safe staffing ratios in the community. The Royal College of Nursing is calling for a maximum caseload for mental health community nurses to ensure that community treatment orders are conducted properly and that nurses can assist in preventing crises, but very little research into this ratio issue has been done outside in-patient facilities. It seems right that research and planning be done to ensure that the community can help fulfil the Bill’s admirable aims. A recent paper by King’s College refers to “frugal innovation” in healthcare. Investing properly in community care will reduce the costs overall.
I trust that the potential shortcomings of the Bill as it stands can be amended and/or resolved through the code of conduct to ensure that it is future-proofed and significantly enhances mental health service provision for patients, which is the aim of His Majesty’s Government, the vast majority of Members of this House and healthcare professionals themselves.
The Lord Bishop of London
My Lords, I am grateful to be able to participate in Second Reading of this important Bill. It is a privilege to follow the noble Baronesses, Lady Barker and Lady Watkins, who have a real breadth of experience in this field. I too welcome, along with many noble Lords, the reform of the Mental Health Act, which is long overdue.
The noble Earl, Lord Howe, highlighted the over-representation of minoritised communities detained under the Act but also placed on community treatment orders. Some groups are also more likely to be detained through contact with the criminal justice system or emergency departments. It is important to remember that we are speaking about these inequalities in the wider context of health inequalities; some groups present to health services far later, when their symptoms have worsened. The Royal College of Nursing notes in its briefing that mental health services are
“not seen as accessible to all communities”,
and that:
“Many black men have a first interaction with a service via the police during a crisis”.
Many of the organisations that have helpfully sent briefings ahead of the debate have acknowledged that the legislative actions available to address this issue are limited. The Minister highlighted the advanced choice directives, which are a welcome step towards this. As the Joint Committee on the Draft Mental Health Bill notes, this is important for those who have experienced trauma, disempowerment and discrimination.
Data collection has also been discussed during scrutiny of the Bill. Although data collection is improving, capturing more complex data on ethnicity is important when looking at health inequalities in this way. In much of the work I have done on health inequalities with the NHS and faith groups, ethno-religious identity is significant if communities are to be better understand at an ICB level or higher how to reduce inequalities.
It is also important that, in evaluating the changes to the Act, the Secretary of State has the appropriate data to do so. What steps are the Government are taking in the Bill or in other ways to mandate this kind of data collection, so that racial inequalities are monitored?
The Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists also emphasises that communication considerations are important to the Bill. In my experience, some faith communities find it very hard to discuss mental health, and that is made worse by the biases and discrimination they meet when they seek help. The patient and carer race equality framework is to be welcomed as the first ever anti-racism framework for mental health trusts and service providers. In order to assist in this, the Royal College of Nursing has recommended that mandatory training on equalities be given to all working under the Mental Health Act. As I often say in this place, faith literacy is an essential component of that.
Much of this is still about trust and culturally competent care. It is critical that services be accessible and effective for people with different traditions, cultures and faiths. Empowering patients to offer their data is as important as mandating that it be collected.
Many briefings note that the Bill will be effective in reducing racial discrimination and health inequalities only if there is investment in community services and other actions. Not everything we can and should do is medical; the involvement of the voluntary and community sector is also crucial.
I welcome the provisions in the Bill to restrict the long-term detention of autistic people and those with learning disabilities. I support the Joint Committee on the draft Bill’s recommendation of clearer duties for ICBs and local authorities to develop robust community services and social support.
I pay tribute to the work of the work of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, and the independent care and treatment review programme to expose the serious harm and trauma inflicted by the use of solitary confinement, detention and long-term segregation in mental health and specialist learning disability hospitals. I too support the comments made by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, with regard to young people.
The right reverent Prelate the Bishop of Gloucester is the lead Bishop on prisons for the Church of England, and she apologises for not being in her place. She and I commend the Government on bringing forward the long-overdue provisions to end the use of prisons and police cells as places of safety. The right reverend Prelate has told me that last year more than 300 people suffering mental health crises were taken not to a hospital but to a police station. According to the recent report from the Chief Inspector of Prisons, the average time to wait to transfer mentally ill patients from prisons to hospitals is 85 days—almost three months. We welcome the statutory time limit of 28 days, but I highlight, as other noble Lords have, that if this is actually to happen, it needs to be resourced. As the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins, highlighted, there is a question of resource not just on this point but for much of the Bill.
Shortages of mental health nurses and doctors impact on those detained under the Mental Health Act and in the community. The learning disability nursing workforce in the NHS has dropped by 44% since records began in 2009. Investment in the workforce will be key to the success of the Bill. Community services can be developed and resourced only as far as the NHS, local authorities and directors of adult social care are supported to do so. I welcome the Bill and look forward to following its passage and working on what is an extremely important reform.
Lord Touhig (Lab)
My Lords, I refer the House to my interest as a vice-president of the National Autistic Society, a role I share with my good and dear friend, the noble Baroness, Lady Browning.
I welcome the Bill. It has been a long time coming, and I passionately hope that it will allow us to end once and for all the myth that autism is a mental health condition. Autism is most definitely not a mental health condition, and our failure to address this has meant decades when autistic people have been wrongly incarcerated, often in appalling and degrading conditions, and robbed of their human rights. More than 2,000 autistic people and people with a learning disability are in mental health hospitals in England, a point made by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, in his opening remarks. The National Autistic Society tells us that 68% of these people are autistic.
Some 93% of autistic people and people with a learning disability in mental health hospitals are detained under the Mental Health Act 1983. The average length of stay is five years, but for a great number of autistic people the detention lasts for decades. Professor Sir Simon Wessely’s review of the Mental Health Act in 2018 found that the experience of detention was often damaging and traumatic. The Bill includes measures to improve care and support for autistic people, reducing reliance on hospital-based care. That certainly is good and is welcomed.
However, there are aspects of the Bill that concern me, and I have had a chance to discuss them with my noble friend the Minister. I have been fortunate to have had a number of fruitful meetings and discussions with a team from the Autism Centre of Excellence at Cambridge and, as a result, they and I share some concerns. First, the Government have said:
“For those with a learning disability or autistic people, the act will be amended to place a limit of 28 days for which they can be detained unless they have a co-occurring mental health condition”.
My noble friend mentioned this in her opening remarks. I stress again that autism is not a mental health condition, but given that eight in 10 autistic people experience mental health issues, without the right safeguards there must be concern that the new provisions could simply lead to a continuation of the current intolerable situation. I hope my noble friend, who kindly met with me recently to discuss these matters, will seek to assuage my fears on that point.
The Government have also said:
“Police and prison cells will also no longer be used to place people experiencing a mental health crisis … Instead, patients will be supported to access a suitable healthcare facility that will better support their needs”.
The right reverend Prelate referred to this in her remarks. The Lampard Inquiry was set up to look at more than 2,000 deaths of people in in-patient mental health facilities, specifically in Essex, and it is believed that many of those who died were autistic. I say to my noble friend that it would be wrong to assume that simply switching the location where autistic people are detained is going to achieve a much better way of protecting them.
The Government have also said the reforms will
“introduce statutory care and treatment plans”.
I share the Cambridge centre’s belief that every autistic person who needs support should have access to a statutory plan to enable them to get the help they need. It should not take an autistic person falling into crisis and being detained in a mental health hospital for such support to be provided, as is often the case today. Autistic people who are at risk of falling into crisis should have a similar right to such plans to prevent in-patient detention becoming a risk in the first place.
A focus on prevention would be in line with Wes Streeting’s idea of reforms of the National Health Service. It is recognised that the current system does, in fact, have a range of provisions, legal rights and safeguards that should, in theory, have reduced the number of people detained in in-patient mental health services. But published statistics show us that this has not happened, with thousands of people still inappropriately detained, so I ask my noble friend to consider these concerns as the Bill passes through the House in Committee and so on.
There is a danger of allowing, even unintentionally, the creation of a critical gap between what happens at a policy and legislative level and what happens on the ground. Without reckoning with this gap and setting up measures to ensure that what is said by government turns into real action on the ground, these reforms will not change the decades-long scandal of thousands of autistic people being detained inappropriately. To do this will require clear measurement, consistent and regular accountability and the necessary funding to enable the National Health Service and other agencies to deliver the hoped-for change that we need from this Bill.
Baroness Buscombe (Con)
My Lords, it gives me enormous pleasure to speak in this debate. For me, this legislation is above politics: it is a real opportunity for constructive opposition. I welcomed the call in July from the Secretary of State for Health, Wes Streeting MP, asking whether I would support the Bill and assist in its progress. Yes, there are some aspects of the Bill on which we on these Benches will wish to press the Government. However, our view is that it is overdue and critical for so many people who have felt misunderstood and suffered serious neglect for too long.
I feel lucky to have chaired the Joint Committee on the Draft Mental Health Bill. Everyone on the Committee apart from me had professional and practical expertise and experience and/or powerful personal experience and knowledge through friends and families. We received evidence from more than 50 organisations and many people who were service users, to whom we remain eternally grateful. We had many hours of strong debate and always managed to find a way through. Results sometimes involved compromise but were also consensual. I thank each and every member for their invaluable contributions, together with our advisers and the brilliant Alex Ruck Keene KC for his extraordinary drafting skills. I also thank the clerks and officials who worked skilfully against a very strict timetable.
I pay tribute to all our medical staff who work in this complex and, in many ways, challenging field of medicine. My sincere admiration for them, and the difficult choices and decisions that they must make, knows no bounds.
A key point for me—I speak as a lawyer—is that so much that directly affects the well-being of patients must be improved, not necessarily by legislation, which can hamper positive change, but through a step change in culture in order to genuinely value every individual and improve their life through choice, dignity, support and advocacy. The Bill seeks to address that, although it lacks a key tool: the use of technology and the drive for data, which I urge the Minister to consider.
The process of amending the current Act speaks volumes. Would that we could have torn up all the current Acts and started again with a fused approach to treating mental health, but we were persuaded that that would just take too long. It has taken too many years to get this far, and now change is urgent.
I have time to touch upon just a few of the many aspects of the Bill. It is right that the Government have agreed—here I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, that we have good news—to embed in primary legislation what I call the Wessely principles: choice and autonomy, least restriction, therapeutic benefit, and the person as an individual. Each principle should be tested against the implementation of current proposals, future reform and change to ensure that patients as individuals remain the heart of the matter.
Least restraint is a key reason for reform, although in practice it is a difficult balance to strike. As the Wessely inquiry report makes clear, as a society we now benefit from a greater understanding of mental health. However, at the same time society has become much more risk-averse. Much of our debate centred around the need to address all avenues of least restraint, particularly given the current inequalities of outcomes, against the risk of unintended consequences for the protection of society and the therapeutic benefit of the patient.
To apply the principles, we need the data to track every patient and their outcomes. I remain appalled at the lack of information and communication across the NHS, which has a negative impact upon so many lives. Each time a person is moved, they are registered as a new patient. How much does that contribute to flawed data and poor outcomes? I urge the Minister to look at that.
A key missing element is technology, as I have said, and I do not mean some clunky, one-size-fits-all NHS-wide system. In short, we need to swiftly develop a national dataset to allow for real-time monitoring and accountability, evaluating variation and inequalities, understanding medium- and long-term trends and informing future policy decisions.
For choice, dignity and autonomy, we recommended a statutory right for patients who have been detained under the Mental Health Act to request an advance choice document to be drawn up and recorded in a way that is accessible digitally. There is no mention of digital in the Bill. Instead, it introduces duties on integrated care boards, NHS England and local health boards in Wales to make arrangements so that people at risk of detention are informed of their ability to make an ACD, a written statement, and be supported to make one.
Our report referenced the potential for creating ACDs via an app, similar in some ways to one already working for end-of-life palliative care, to support all patients. Simply put, it is a no-brainer and transformative, easily accessed by anyone, either on a mobile phone or even on a patient’s clothes, so that when that person is in crisis there is an instant critical guide to who that person is. That would greatly assist the police, if they are in attendance, and those in A&E. I am hopeful that this approach and other smart, cost-efficient moves will be in the code of practice.
The implementation of reform requires constant oversight. We recommended the appointment of an independent mental health commissioner with overarching responsibility to ensure consistency of delivery of the Government’s priorities for patients across England and Wales. This is not about the Government losing control; on the contrary, it is about an overarching small body with the ability to focus upon consistency across the whole sector, ideally using digitised national data to track and monitor the implementation of the reforms over a period of years, working with the associated NHS bodies to promote better outcomes. I ask the Minister: who else will do that?
Furthermore, we must address unacceptable racial disparities and inequalities, particularly among black men, who, as we have heard from my noble friend Lord Howe, are three and a half times more likely to be detained under the Mental Health Act and seven times more likely to be placed on a CTO. But how is that data collected and verified? Indeed, the facts could be worse. Our report was clear that better outcomes would be achieved and inequalities reduced if each health organisation introduced culturally appropriate advocacy and appointed a responsible person to collect relevant data and publish and oversee policies to address these inequalities. A mental health commissioner could ensure that that was done.
Mental health services currently operate in a static world. What happens when someone has a crisis far away from their local authority? We heard on a visit to SLaM in Lambeth that patients sometimes travel miles to Lambeth when on a downward spiral to receive, in their view, better treatment there than within their local authority. That is another reason to have accurate data.
Another critical area is children and young people. Issues highlighted in our report, including the role and profile of nominated persons, detention in adult wards and conflict with the Children Act, must be clarified and assurances given to families and their young. Investing in and building the right community support and action plan for people with learning disabilities and autism no longer detained under Section 3 is critical, as is monitoring the outcomes for those with learning disabilities and autism who may be at risk of being detained under the Mental Capacity Act or through the criminal justice system instead. This is an area where our committee had a strong debate, concerned about unintended consequences that might impact on the patient and/or society at large if the right protections, including safe spaces, were not in place. Are the Government content that they have achieved the right balance?
I feel I must record—because I want to be helpful to the Government—that our committee had one opportunity to put some of the crucial questions to, and test the opinions of, around 18 officials from the DHSC and the MoJ who had worked on the Bill for four years. That meeting was cut very short because one official said she had to collect her child from school, so all 18 walked out. That must not be allowed to happen again.
Priorities must be set for the implementation of the many proposals, and there needs to be a significant increase in capacity right across mental health services, all of which requires enormous investment. I wish the Government, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, well.
Baroness Murphy (CB)
My Lords, this is a long-overdue Bill, as many have said, and I hope it will progress through the House as quickly as possible. Quite why it has taken six years for Sir Simon Wessely’s report to be acted on, I am not sure, but I am particularly pleased that we have got advance directives in, even if in a slightly watered-down form.
However, there are some rather troubling changes that have been squeezed in recently for reasons that are difficult to understand, and I shall want to explore those in Committee. There are differences between the criteria for Parts 2 and 3 of the Bill, for example, which is bizarre, and I am scared that the changes in relation to learning difficulties and autism, in spite of all the good intentions, will be extremely difficult to implement. Throughout the Bill, there is an assumption that if you change the legislation, it happens, but we know very well that it does not—it takes years to implement—so I am concerned about that overall. Having said that, I will remain on the theme that the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, picked up. We will leave the rest until Committee, where we are going to have very detailed debates.
It is now 20 years since I came into this House with the certainty of the optimistic new girl that we would see a new mental health Bill that addressed the deeply flawed legislation that we had been living with since 1959, but I am pretty sure now that I shall leave the House having seen no fundamental change. I am ashamed that in England and Wales we are falling so far behind many other countries, when we used to be in the advance in devising mental health law that was fit for purpose. Scotland is 20 years ahead, as is Northern Ireland.
I was told back in 2017 by Simon Wessely and others that it would take 10 years to develop a unified mental health and capacity Bill. If we had started then, we would be almost there by now. We tinkered with the 1959 Act in order to produce the1983 Act. We added a new Mental Capacity Act in 2005 that cut across mental health legislation. Then we added the ludicrously undeliverable deprivation of liberty safeguards and added tiers of bureaucracy to an already overburdened system, all reducing the time for clinical and social care professionals to spend with patients as they had to spend more time filling in forms. The new Bill makes no attempt to address the complicated relationship between the 1983 and 2005 Acts or how they are meant to be used for individuals, and this is particularly difficult for patients with learning disability and mental disorders and also older people with dementia where people are tossing up which Bill is going to be used. It is clinically ridiculous.
I would have liked to see a Bill that addressed all mental health and capacity issues, putting capacity for decision-making at its heart, consistent with the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, which we currently contravene and have done since its implementation by the UN in 2008. The human rights implications of the current Bill are profound. It does not address the fundamental rights of thousands of mentally ill people, primarily because of the absence of having decision-making capacity at its heart. We accept that patients with physical disorders can make decisions that may be seriously detrimental to their health or safety. In contrast to this, in mental health law capacity plays little or no role in decisions to initiate psychiatric treatment against a patient’s wishes. The criteria for the involuntary treatment of mental disorders fails to respect the autonomy of the patients. The key considerations are the presence of a mental disorder and risks to the patient’s health or safety. For persons with physical disorders, their personal values are given dominion. Those with mental disorders are not accorded this privilege in this Bill, even though we make such a meal of it in the Mental Capacity Act 2005. There is an underlying assumption that mental disorder necessarily entails an inability to make sound or rational judgments, but even among the most ill patients—those admitted to acute psychiatric wards—40% to 60% retain capacity.
People with mental disorders are unusual in being liable to detention, usually in hospital, because they are assessed as presenting a risk of harm to others before they have actually committed an offence. This constitutes a form of preventive detention that is selective. We spent some time in this Chamber a couple of weeks ago debating indeterminate sentences for people in prison thought to pose a continuing risk in the community. There was widespread agreement here that it was an iniquitous thing. And yet mental health law allows the detention of those with mental disorder on the basis of risk alone. How can that be justified? There is no evidence that risk is easier to assess in those with mental disorder or that violence is more predictable in this group, and it is an expression of the prejudicial stereotype that people with mental disorder are intrinsically dangerous, contrary to research evidence.
This does not mean that people’s dangerousness is unimportant. If it is reliably linked to an individual’s mental disorder, then, if the person lacks capacity, involuntary treatment may be justified, but if the patient has capacity, protection of the public becomes the sole interest. I do not deny there are problems with a capacity-based regime. Many people think you have to fudge the decision, but I would say it was because they do not understand the fundamental ways to assess capacity and the full influences on it.
One of the aims of this Bill is to reduce sections. The number of new sections, as we know, has rocketed again. Last year, there were over 52,000 sections, a further 5,000 or so placed on a community treatment order, and 140,00 people on mental capacity deprivation of liberty safeguards. If the aim of the new Act is to reduce detentions, I cannot see how. The discharge rate from tribunals has reduced from 25% in the mid-1980s to about 6% today. How is it going to happen exactly under this legislation?
I do not see how the overrepresentation of black people in the detained population is to be addressed by this Bill. We need a completely different new way of assessing people and allowing people to get access to services that are sensitive to their needs, providing something that they want to access. I cannot think that there is anything new in this Bill which reflects new thinking that is going on about how you encourage people to access services when they first begin to feel ill.
The Bill has nothing to say about restraint and seclusion. It does not address the hundreds of people in the prison system and their non-consensual treatment except to speed up those that are suitable for transfer. The majority of the mentally unwell will never even be considered for transfer, but they have terrible problems which impact on the prison system tremendously.
Finally, it is now 14 years since the Mental Health Act Commission was abolished and replaced first with the mental health commissioner and now by the totally inadequate low-profile CQC, which has no legally qualified members and no mental health representation at executive board level. Whereas the former chair and vice-chair of the commission had direct access to the Secretary of State for Health, as I am sure the noble Baroness, Lady Bottomley, will remember—she got tired of seeing us, I should think—mental health does not now appear to have the same direct influence. Perhaps it is not surprising that mental health appears only on the government agenda when there is some crisis that has been brewing for years or, as now, after meandering for years through our scrutiny and committee systems.
I have had my say. I am not going to raise this issue again. I felt I had to say it once. I will throw myself into Committee with enthusiasm and hope we can get this Bill through, but I do hope that one day we will get the mental health and capacity legislation that we really need.
Baroness May of Maidenhead (Con)
My Lords, it is a great pleasure to be able to contribute to the Second Reading of this very important Bill, albeit, as other speakers have already said, a Bill that has been too long coming. I wholeheartedly welcome this Bill and I thank the Government and commend them for bringing it forward so quickly in their term of office. I also thank the noble Baroness the Minister and the Secretary of State for the meeting that they held with me earlier today. Like others, I also want to look back and thank Professor Sir Simon Wessely and his team—including, not least, the noble Baroness, Lady Neuberger—for the invaluable work that they did that has led to the Bill before this House today. I want to say a particular thank you to those with lived experience who were willing to come forward and inform and advise the review panel, but also the pre-legislative scrutiny work and at other stages too, so that the Bill could be based on real experience, not just on what politicians and, dare I say it, the civil servants thought would be the right thing to do. So I welcome this Bill.
When in October 2017 Sir Simon Wessely was commissioned to undertake the review, there were a number of reasons that led to that. The first was the one that the Minister has already referred to: the Mental Health Act 1983, which was in place for over 30 years, had had some amendments subsequently but was felt to be out of date. Society and clinical treatments had moved on, so there was a need to look at it. But, for me, there was a more fundamental issue, which was the fact that so many people who found themselves in mental health crisis felt that, somehow at those points of crisis, they were people to whom things were done, to whom society did things, rather than people who were able to be part of and involved in that decision-making—they lost their human dignity in the processes that they went through. There were also issues about family members who were concerned that they were not listened to, when they felt that they knew when people were coming to points of crisis, or family members who felt that they were shut out from the discussions about their relative who was potentially at a point of crisis.
Then there was the overuse of detention. Reference has already been made, and I am sure will be made by others in this debate, to the racial disparity in the use of detention, a matter which should concern us all. There was also the question of the use of detention for those with autism and learning disabilities. All those issues underpinned the reason for looking at reviewing the Mental Health Act 1983.
The first point has been that issue about the loss of dignity and the way in which people in mental health crisis are treated. I hope that will be dealt with by those very first principles that appear in Clause 1. I draw particular attention to the fourth of those:
“The person as an individual”.
Under “Matters to be addressed”, it says:
“treating patients with dignity and respect and considering their attributes and past experiences”,
although I accept, as the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, just said, that it is not enough simply to put it on a page of legislation. For that to be enacted requires changes of culture and attitude from all those who deal with people in mental health crisis.
Part of this sense, though, of people being able to feel that they are making decisions for themselves is the advance choice document enshrined in this legislation. I am sure that the Government will want to think carefully about the matters that it might encompass, and about its interaction with potential future legislation.
I want to pick up the issue of the nominated person. I mentioned families feeling that they are sometimes cut out but of course, as we know, sometimes for the individual with mental illness or mental health problems the nearest relative—that family member—might not be the most appropriate person to be their nominated individual. That individual may actually be somebody with whom—how can I put it?—the tensions can lead to increased difficulties for the person with mental illness, rather than reducing them. That ability to nominate somebody else as the person who someone wants to be there is critical. The noble Baroness, Lady Watkins, referred to this in relation to children but I think that, in general, it could create some tensions with family members who feel that it is their right to be that person alongside the individual in mental health crisis. Having said that, I believe that the nominated person point in the Bill is absolutely appropriate.
I want to focus also on the questions of detention. I have referenced how we need to look carefully at the inappropriate racial disparity in detention, but I also want to comment on the police issue. I am pleased to see the outlawing in the Bill of the use of police cells and prisons as first places of safety. This is of course the culmination of work in progress. There was voluntary work with the police and the health service, in 2012 and subsequently, to encourage and help them to ensure that the first person who someone in mental health crisis saw was not a police officer, and that they were not taken to a police cell as a place of safety. We then ensured that work in the Policing and Crime Act 2017, so that police cells could not be used as places of safety for those under the age of 18. The Bill takes it that bit further and it is absolutely right that it does—and right to do it for the individual who is in mental health crisis.
It is also right to do that for the police, because one issue that police officers themselves constantly made reference to me about was their fear and concern about being expected to deal with somebody who was in mental health crisis, when they had no training and no capability of knowing what to do in those circumstances. Of course, it is bad for the individual too if they are faced with somebody who has no actual understanding of what their condition is or how they should be dealt with.
Perhaps I may gently say to the Minister that in 2015 we put £15 million into providing alternative places of safety and in 2017 the Government put £30 million into providing them. This Government are now putting £26 million into providing those alternative places of safety. It is easier to say this from this side of the House, but the Government might wish to consider those figures, if I can put it like that. I also suggest to the Government that they consider alternative places of safety as not necessarily being a healthcare facility. Many places in the third sector are able to provide those facilities and the Government should look at that as well.
Finally, we also need those facilities to try to ensure that people are less likely to get to the point of crisis. If they are less likely to get to that point, they are also less likely to turn up at A&E because they are in crisis. That would be a win-win for the individual concerned, for the Government and for the health service.
Overall, I welcome the Bill. There are some very good provisions in it. As we have heard, it will be subject to detailed scrutiny in this House but it is no bad thing—I can say this now—that it started in this House. I welcome it and look forward to its passage.
Baroness Hollins (CB)
My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness. I remind the House that I worked clinically as a psychiatrist for about 35 years and had been a consultant for two years by the time that the 1983 Act was introduced. I argued then, as now, that mental handicap, as it was called, had no place in legislation—although others disagreed. Profound changes in societal attitudes, alongside advancements in the understanding and treatment of mental illness, have occurred during my career. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, and my noble friend Lady Murphy that fusion legislation really should have been considered.
There is no minimum age limit in the Mental Health Act, meaning that its provisions apply to children and young people as well as adults. The Joint Committee, of which I was a member, recognised their unique needs, saying that this is
“a crucial opportunity for the Government to strengthen the rights and protections for children and young people”.
We must never forget that the mental health of babies, children and young people is fundamental to the mental health of the adult population, and that we cannot legislate for the treatment of serious mental disorder without taking mental health seriously from the very beginning of each person’s life.
Psychiatry’s past has included some harmful and forced interventions, rather than the preventive approaches, early intervention and evidence-based treatments that are so needed. The Bill aims to safeguard dignity and autonomy, and ensure best practices for all, including people with learning disabilities and autistic people. A major current concern for me is that there are nearly 2,000 people with a learning disability and autistic people in psychiatric hospitals. Usually, that is because of a lack of individually tailored support and housing—they have an average stay of five years—and because of the shortage of effective treatment options in the community and lack of training for the wider mental health workforce.
My Heart Breaks, the report of a review that I chaired and which was published by the Government last year, shed light on the harrowing realities faced by many of the 100 or so of those 2,000 in hospital who are detained in long-term segregation at any one time. The systemic failures we found reflected a troubling overreliance on detention as a substitute for meaningful care, despite such detentions often lacking therapeutic goals, a pattern that unfortunately affects other patient groups as well, including those with personality disorders.
Historically, policy and practice have overlooked complex intersectional vulnerabilities, including learning disability, autism, gender, race, poverty and physical health issues. Marginalised groups, especially people from racialised communities, are detained more often. Trauma histories may be compounded by the excessive use of medication and restrictive practices which contain people, with an eye to safety, but disempower and just do not support recovery. People need better-adapted psychological therapies but are less likely to access them, and poorly co-ordinated discharge processes further trap individuals in a dysfunctional system. This violates people’s human rights and ethical care standards.
As a long-time advocate for people with learning disabilities and autistic people, for me, one of the Bill’s most significant reforms is the removal of learning disability and autism as stand-alone grounds for detention under Section 3, part 2. This change is complemented by new duties on health and care bodies to provide the community-based support and therapeutic approaches needed to prevent unnecessary detentions. But legislation alone will not provide better care; the right people in the right place with the right skills are needed. So the Bill introduces mandatory care, education and treatment reviews, which aim to create personalised care plans and facilitate timely discharges. Additionally, dynamic support registers are intended to track those at risk of crisis, allowing for early intervention before issues escalate. Advance choice documents could also be valuable for choice, safety and care.
The National Autistic Society, Mencap and several other charities have welcomed the Mental Health Bill as a step toward safeguarding the rights of individuals with learning disabilities and autistic people. All stress the need for robust support systems, including housing and social care. These are essential to prevent unnecessary admissions, emphasising that the Bill’s success depends on effective implementation, accountability and substantial investment in community services. They also request a new action plan to replace the Building the Right Support action plan. This is particularly urgent, given that targets to reduce in-patient numbers of people with a learning disability and autistic people have been repeatedly missed over the last decade, and only one in five integrated care systems have currently met the March 2024 target for reduction of in-patient numbers.
Can the Minister confirm whether a plan such as that being requested will indeed be co-produced and implemented with the help of people with lived experience, families, campaigners and relevant bodies, alongside the implementation of this legislation? Both the Royal College of Psychiatrists and the BPS have cautioned against removing autism and learning disabilities as stand-alone criteria unless there are substantial improvements, warning that this could divert unsupported individuals into emergency services or the criminal justice system. Easy to say, better not to do it—but we must use this as a lever to change the culture of care and support for these groups of people.
We do not want to risk criminalising people’s mental health needs, and we do not want to disproportionately impact already marginalised groups. I ask the Minister, what assurances can Government provide to ensure adequate funding to deliver minimum safe services in the community, such as early prevention measures, rapid response teams, crash pads and effective therapeutic approaches in the community? Indeed, could these alternatives be mandated?
Compulsory detention and treatment of individuals with personality disorders under Part 2 of the Mental Health Act is another issue. Personality disorders stem from relational difficulties and cannot be effectively treated in restrictive in-patient settings. Research shows that admissions without structured, evidence-based psychological interventions provide no benefits and can indeed worsen symptoms.
Why is Section 117 aftercare limited to Section 3? Social and health care should be integrated for all patients based on need, not the section they were detained under. For example, a financial crisis causing suicidal thoughts in a farmer might lead to a Section 2, when a social prescription might have been effective. After assessment, they will return to the same situation without appropriate support, such as legal or financial advice to resolve the crisis.
The new Mental Health Bill gives us an opportunity to address the stigma that shaped policy in the 1980s and create a legal framework which keeps pace with scientific advancements. We need to reframe our focus from risk management to supporting accessible, evidence-based community interventions, ensuring that care aligns with ethical and therapeutic principles and prioritises a rights-based, person-centred approach.
Our actions now will shape mental health care for the 21st century. Let us enact compassionate and progressive reforms that future generations will respect.
Lord Bradley (Lab)
My Lords, it is always a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, with her expertise in this area. I declare my interests as listed in the register and am pleased to make a short contribution to this debate. It has been some time coming.
Following the excellent review of the Mental Health Act, initiated by the noble Baroness, Lady May, Sir Simon Wesley produced his report in 2018 and a draft Bill was published by the last Government, as we have heard. This was followed by detailed scrutiny by the Joint Committee of both Houses, which I was pleased to be a member of and which was so admirably chaired by the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe. It was disappointing at that point that the deliberations were paused, but I was delighted that the new Government, following a manifesto commitment, immediately introduced this Bill, which everyone has welcomed today.
In the time available I will focus on only a few areas, the first of which is the proposed changes under Part 3 of the Bill—essentially, the interface between mental health and the criminal justice system. I am delighted that Clause 35 proposes a statutory time limit of 28 days for the transfer of acutely mentally ill patients held in prison to appropriate hospital provision. It is now well recognised that the prison environment and care capacity is detrimental not only to the prisoner but to other prisoners and the staff who care for them. I made a similar recommendation in my independent report to government in 2009, nearly 16 years ago—albeit with the perhaps unrealistic time limit of a 14-day transfer. Clearly, you have to be patient and persistent to achieve legislative change.
Secondly, on Clause 46 and the removal of police stations and prisons as places of safety, I made related recommendations back in 2009, and I am obviously now pleased that there is overwhelming recognition that both facilities are not appropriate as places of safety. Clearly, detailed examination of these proposals will be required in Committee to ensure that the wording delivers their intention. For example, when will the clock start on the 28-day limit?
Thirdly, for this to be effective, investment in alternative community-based healthcare provision will be required for places of safety, as will investment in liaison diversion services, to ensure that only those who need to obtain a place of safety. Otherwise, as we have heard, A&E departments will continue to be the default position, at huge cost to the NHS and to the police service. We also need additional acute mental health beds in every local area to ensure timely transfers and to make the legislative changes a reality.
There is also concern, well articulated by the Children & Young People’s Mental Health Coalition, that children and young people are still inappropriately placed in settings outside their local area, and on adult wards. It is imperative that the Bill strengthens safeguards against this and recognises the Joint Committee’s recommendation for stronger procedural requirements where such inappropriate placements are considered, including a requirement that such a placement is demonstrably in the child’s best interest.
There are many positive elements of the Bill, as the Minister clearly outlined in opening this debate, including improving the patient experience, improving patient choice and autonomy, and limiting the detention of people with learning disability and autistic people without qualifying co-recurring mental health conditions—all of which and much else, as we have heard, will be carefully considered in Committee.
However, I believe we need further debate on where the principles outlined by Simon Wessely are placed in the Bill. I am particularly disappointed that the Government have not currently accepted the recommendation to establish the role of a mental health commissioner and seemed silent on the issue when the Bill was introduced. As we have heard, the Joint Committee recommended that this post be statutorily positioned and that the mental health commissioner should be created with a number of roles, which I would like to briefly elaborate on.
The mental health commissioner should be a voice at a national level, promoting the interests of those who are detained and who are likely to be detained under the Mental Health Act, as well as the interests of their families and carers, raising awareness of their needs and challenging stigma and stereotypes. They should work in conjunction with the Care Quality Commission and other bodies to make recommendations on further reforming mental health law in the direction of more rights-led and fused legislation, such as we have heard on the Mental Capacity Act.
Critically, the commissioner should be a mechanism for tracking the implementation of the reforms in and associated with this Bill and other legal changes, essentially and particularly with the inclusion of the provision of data to understand how the Bill is operating. We saw the role of the commissioner as primarily to act as a watchdog to oversee the direction of travel for the key reforms in the Mental Health Act and mental health policy generally, overarching the whole government system. This has been supported by many organisations working in the mental health field, including the Centre for Mental Health, of which I am an ambassador. The centre added that, in addition to overseeing the reforms to the Mental Health Act, a commissioner could play a wide-ranging strategic role across all government departments.
Finally, I will say a few further words about resourcing and implementation, which will be crucial to the success of this legislation. Again, the Joint Committee recommended that the Government publish a comprehensive implementation and workforce plan alongside the Bill with key milestones detailing the implementation of the Bill and, crucially, how they link to milestones in the implementation of the NHS 10-year plan and other government initiatives. These should include milestones on workforce development, not only for mental health staff but allied health professionals, such as speech and language therapists. I declare my interest as honorary vice-president of the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists.
The plan should also include milestones on training, advocacy and community care capacity, as well as on numbers of detentions, length of stay and, critically, reducing racial and ethnic inequality. There should also be a statutory duty to report annually to Parliament on the progress against these milestones during the implementation period. Disappointingly, unless I have misunderstood the Explanatory Notes to the Bill, the Government have so far offered only a financial assessment over a 20-year period, which is not at all coherent with the NHS 10-year plan.
However, in conclusion, I am very pleased that we are debating this incredibly important Bill now and in the coming weeks and months to try to ensure that we go a long way to producing a progressive Mental Health Act which is fit for 2025 and years beyond. I look forward to the Minister’s response at the end of the debate.
Lord Scriven (LD)
My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, who was the MP for the constituency I lived in when I was a student. In those days, I campaigned against him, but, from listening to his speech today, I am sure that we will campaign together in Committee on some of the reforms that may be required in the Bill.
This Bill is a welcome direction of travel for mental health legislation in the United Kingdom, but it is only an extra stop. As other noble Lords have said, sometimes we have to look at the bus we are on—the underlying legislation. That bus was built when I was 17 years old, if we go back to the 1983 legislation, and it had its last MOT 17 years ago, in terms of its amendments. I believe that, although these measures are welcome, there is still a fundamental issue in terms of the basis of what we are traveling on. I understand the problems with that.
The questions we are really asking in this Bill are quite limited in the sense of the balance between individual freedoms and public protection when it comes to the detention of individuals. Because we look at such legislation infrequently, we must do our best in Committee to ensure that the balance is at its best and that, wherever we can, we take a person-centred, rights-based approach to this legislation. Having said that, there are some pleasing points in the Bill, including the tightening of the criteria for the detention and compulsory treatment of individuals. It is welcome that the four key principles are mentioned but it is a shame that they are not on the face of the Bill and are down as guidance only. It is important that those of us who really support the principles fight for them to be on the face of the Bill in Committee.
The advance choice documents are a welcome provision but, as many noble Lords have said, they need to be fully accessible 24 hours a day, 365 days a year to those who care for people who have given an advance choice document. I question why they are only for people aged 18 and over. If we are looking at Gillick competence, there are issues around those who are younger, who should be able to provide an advance choice document. I worry that they are not a right or a duty but are only to be given as a consideration.
I welcome the right to a nominated trusted individual but many people who have been involved in healthcare will know that it is not just about having that person as a right; it is about the way in which professionals listen to them and carry out the advocacy that they provide. I am not sure, as we start with this Bill, that the balance is correct; I believe that certain issues will have to be addressed in Committee.
I have also looked at the potential implementation of the Bill. It is always good to start with the impact assessment. It has in it some quite startling issues that I think we will want to look at in Committee. For example, community treatment orders are not meant to change for at least another seven years, but the implementation start is in seven years. The existing CTO regime will last for another seven years and, from the Government’s impact assessment, it looks as though the new regime will start in seven years at the earliest.
I will come back to people with learning difficulties and autism in a second, but the implementation of the measures for them not to be held for more than 28 days and for other provision in the community to have to be available will be in three years’ time, according to the impact assessment. However, there is no money in the next two years to start to provide for those community facilities. It is as though they will come on stream the second the implementation date is reached; I question the Government’s planning on that and whether it is a realistic adaptation for people with learning difficulties and autism.
My passion and focus in Committee will probably be learning disabilities and autism, because they are personal to me. I have close family members who are loving and warm but very misunderstood by those who do not have a close relationship with them. It is scandalous that, in 2024, having those labels attached to you means that you could be detained under the Mental Health Act for more than 28 days. I welcome the fact that the Bill’s provisions will move away from Section 3 and towards Section 2 detention, but I worry that it will not stop detention of people with learning disabilities or autism. For example, DoLS will be used, because these people are misunderstood. The legislation in itself will not change what happens to them. Individuals who are seen not as a threat but as difficult will be detained. As other noble Lords have said, fused legislation needs to be used to ensure that those individuals are not detained using different pieces of legislation.
As other noble Lords have said, it is also worrying that people with learning disabilities or autism who are under a Section 2 detention or detained under the Mental Capacity Act will not have access to Section 117 community facilities. It is quite fascinating that the very things under Section 117 that need to be in place to ensure that these people are not detained are the very facilities that they do not have a statutory right to. That needs to be looked at in this legislation.
There are many things to welcome, but many further questions need to be asked and drawn out, particularly regarding some of the contradictions in different parts of the legislative process on mental health provision within the UK and around the rights-based approach, which the Government seem not to have in place. We will want to explore that as we go forward.
Lord Meston (CB)
My Lords, consideration of this Bill has been greatly assisted by the thorough scrutiny and analysis undertaken by the Joint Committee on the draft Bill and its compelling report, published in January 2023. Parliament will now need to look with care at its recommendations, including those not incorporated into the Bill as now presented, and the justifications for any omission.
The first question tackled in that report was whether what is now required is fundamental reforming legislation rather than another amending statute. If I may follow on from the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, the bus was not built in 1983; its chassis was built in 1959, and we are still dealing with it. The report states:
“The Mental Health Act 1983 is … forty years old. It has been amended multiple times over those years, making it hard to use even for experienced professionals. It is overly complex, especially where it interacts with the Mental Capacity Act 2005”.
For example, the committee noted:
“Attempts to both protect and empower children in these settings have resulted in a complex mixture of statute law and case law alongside the MHA that … makes assessing a child’s rights to access certain safeguards in this draft Bill complex and obscure”.
For essentially good and pragmatic reasons, as the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, explained, the Joint Committee did not wish to introduce further delay or uncertainty, so favoured the form of the Bill considered by it, which is now before Parliament. However, for the courts, tribunals, lawyers and all the other consumers of the legislation, the question will remain, as per the quote in the invaluable Mental Health Act Manual:
“If the Mental Health Act is to be modernised, is it appropriate to base the modernisation on a legislative structure that was established over 60 years ago by the Mental Health Act 1959? The process of bolting on multiple miscellaneous amendments to that structure over the years has resulted in an Act which is overly complex, confusing, and expensive to operate”.
Inevitably, those problems will be exacerbated when this Bill adds further amendments to the 1983 Act. It is therefore to be hoped that the Government will see the Bill, as the Joint Committee put it, not as
“the end—or even a pause—in the process of reform of mental health legislation”.
Meanwhile, the code of practice under the 1983 Act will need, and I understand will now receive, further revision and updating once the Bill is enacted to cover the stronger requirements of the new legislation and provide clear guidance to meet the needs of patients and for all those who operate the changes.
I turn to some of the Bill’s detail. It is certainly welcome that it recognises the real problem that too many autistic people and others with learning difficulties have been detained inappropriately and for far too long. It is also welcome that the Bill removes police stations from the definition of a place of safety in the 1983 Act. Inevitably, the police will continue to have to deal with disturbed and distressed people suffering a chronic or temporary mental health crisis, but these are people who should not be in police stations any longer than absolutely necessary, particularly if expert assessment or treatment are required.
It is to be hoped that the changes will relieve the police of some of the difficult decisions as to risk required under the existing code of practice, but, as others have said, these changes will not work without sufficient community alternatives. As the noble Earl said, it will not be helpful if they simply pass the problem on to an A&E department. I do not want to get anecdotal, but I had a brief admission to A&E. It was, happily, not long lasting, but it was extraordinary to watch the staff in that hospital cope with a very determined and disturbed man. Unfortunately, I did not see the end of that because, luckily, I was released. Nevertheless, it is a problem that needs to be thought about hard.
By contrast with the ethos when I started as a lawyer, all courts now strive to ensure that people are not defined by their mental health problems, even if it is not always possible to prevent those with mental health problems entering the criminal justice system or to divert them from it once they are in it. Professionals in that system need help to deal with these people and their problems. Therefore, the improved provisions for transfer of prisoners to hospital, including those detained under the Immigration Act, should be valuable, but will always depend on compliance with the code of practice, which requires the need for in-patient treatment for a prisoner to be identified and acted on quickly.
The same problems apply when the criminal courts consider sentencing options. The courts depend on the Probation Service and legal representatives to draw attention to the possible need for psychiatric reports and detention. Having sat as a judge in the Crown Court, I can convey the real exasperation of the judiciary when necessary reports are not available or when suitable hospital places cannot be found without further delay and hearings in an overloaded court system.
I turn to a different topic, which has been referred to. The Bill will implement recommendations about replacing the existing “nearest relative” with “the nominated person”, under the principle of patient choice and autonomy. I have some concerns about the selection and replacement of nominated persons, and the complicated provisions within the Bill. Now is perhaps not the time for that, and I will leave it to Committee, but it needs to be looked at again. In particular, there is a need to focus on the consultation, at the very least, and recognition of the legitimate interests of parents and others with parental responsibility.
On this topic, I question—although, again, I leave this to Committee—the continued use of the county court for applications to terminate appointments of nominated persons. The use of the county court is left over from the 1959 Act, at a time when there was neither a separate family court nor a Court of Protection. I suggest that these would now be better equipped to deal with these applications.
There are further points focusing on the needs of children, one of which has already been touched on. It was highlighted by Dr Camilla Parker in her evidence and will strike a chord with many practitioners. It concerns the overlapping factors governing capacity and competence, and the differing processes for assessment. Dr Parker observed that, even after 40 years, we do not have “clear and consistent criteria” for determining whether a child is competent to make a decision. It would be helpful to understand the Government’s current intention, particularly if formulating any statutory tests is not intended.
More fundamentally important is the location for the placement of children. This overlaps with the real problem, which has been highlighted repeatedly by the judiciary, the Nuffield Family Justice Observatory and the Children’s Commissioner, of the use of deprivation of liberty orders, or DoLS, and placing children in unregistered settings—not just adult wards but unsuitable, unregistered settings. Again, I will return to this in Committee.
Baroness Browning (Con)
My Lords, I declare an interest as a vice-president of the National Autistic Society, with the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, and as having some responsibility for family members on the autistic spectrum.
Like the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, I am a veteran of the Mental Health Act 2007 and the Mental Capacity Act. When I came to this place, I was pleased to be involved in the review of the Mental Capacity Act. This and other Bills of this nature would merit looking at, to see what happens after we legislate. My concerns with the 2007 Act were, primarily, community treatment orders. Looking at the Bill, I see that these are to be altered, but I still share the view of the charity Mind, which would like to see them abolished altogether. I hope that, as we go through Committee, we can make substantial changes to what we have in front of us.
I was also concerned about the deprivation of liberty generally and the situation for autistic people in relation to mental health services. I am still concerned, but I welcome the proposed changes for people with autism and learning disabilities, making it illegal to detain an autistic person or a person with a learning disability unless they have a coexisting mental health condition. Presently, of the 1,385 autistic people detained in mental health facilities, 93% are detained under the Mental Health Act—they are not voluntary patients.
I make no apology for making the case for autism being a special condition that needs to be treated differently to other conditions. I say that because, apart from the Mental Health Act, autism is the only medical condition that has its own Act of Parliament. That tells you that something about it is different from other conditions. In 2009, both Houses of Parliament passed a short but important Act, which was introduced by my friend the late right honourable Cheryl Gillan MP.
So what is it about autism that makes it so different that we should have special regard to it as the Bill progresses? I will first look at how autistic people come into contact with psychiatric services generally. Autism is, of course, a spectrum, so we are talking about a wide range of conditions. There is the old adage that, if you have met one autistic person, well, you have met one autistic person. Although we may look at commonalities among this whole group of people, they are all individuals and should be treated as individuals.
Autistic people come into contact with psychiatrists, although a wider range of people diagnose autism now. I give apologies immediately to the eminent psychiatrists in this Chamber, but, over 32 years in this House—and having taken up many cases and I hope assisted several Members with their casework—I have seen what can often happen if a psychiatrist does not understand autism or, even worse, receives a patient with an autism diagnosis from another psychiatrist but will not accept that diagnosis. That is shocking. So often, misdiagnosis can occur when somebody is admitted to a mental health institution but the psychiatrist will not accept that diagnosis and starts to rediagnose somebody, giving them medicated treatment that clearly does not work. I have seen the results of that.
I particularly remember—it is fixed in my mind—a young man who was a very good artist and whose autism diagnosis was overridden when he was admitted. The diagnosis was, “No, no—this is schizophrenia”. Interestingly, that is a common mistake. As each medication was applied and did not work, that young man’s ability to hold a paintbrush and produce the sort of work he produced before was completely diminished. So autistic people come into contact with psychiatrists, and my point about psychiatrists is that they must have specific autism training. There is a huge lack of psychiatrists generally but particularly psychiatrists with that type of training.
As the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, rightly said, although autism itself is not a mental health condition, people with autism can of course have a mental health condition or a learning disability. But, out in the community, if an autistic person needs medication of one sort or another—I am talking not about drugs that are used for psychosis but drugs to help control anxiety, which is a natural side-effect of autism—accessing the correct drugs through a psychiatrist is impossible in some parts of the country. It is very much a postcode lottery, because psychologists—whom autistic people are very often referred to—cannot prescribe. So, if there is no local psychiatrist whom a GP can refer you to, your only option is very often to pay to see the right person privately. If any of us had a cardiological condition, we would not expect to have to pay for a cardiologist to treat us. I believe the Bill should address access to appropriate—that word is used so often—care from trained and qualified people, whether psychiatrists, CPNs or whoever.
The other thing about autistic people that must be taken into account is that so many of them have sensory side-effects to their autism. There is a vast variety of side-effects, which perhaps may not seem important to people who do not experience them. They can be anything from lighting to noise, sound and the proximity of other people to them. These things need to be taken into account, like the things that have been said already: what a horror it is for any of us to be admitted to A&E now, but, frankly, it can produce very serious results for an autistic person.
I would like this Bill to produce the right training and the right services in the community. For autistic people, the downward spiral into very severe anxiety is there when community services are not provided. When I talk about community services, I am not always talking about something that will cost a fortune; it is actually the low-hanging fruit of low-cost measures. Sometimes it can be as simple as something that provides somebody—a child or an adult—with a friend: somebody with whom they can form a relationship. That does not cost a fortune. However, when money is tight—and we know money is tight—those are the first sorts of services that get taken away, and the downward spiral of an autistic person when these services are no longer provided or are not provided in the first place is what results in them needing to come into contact with the more serious mental health services that this Bill will address.
The noble Baroness, Lady Watkins, mentioned parental responsibility, and in this debate we have not yet mentioned lasting powers of attorney. These are powers for people who are able to sign them when they have capacity, which may well be a very useful thing when people are denied access to their relatives or carers. I hope we will include that in the Bill.
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)
My Lords, it is somewhat humbling and not a little intimidating to follow so many insightful speeches from those at the heart of the issue. For me, as a bit of an amateur outsider, I broadly welcome the Bill, with some reservations that I will pursue in Committee.
For Second Reading, I suggest that we should always remember the cultural and political context of our deliberations and indeed definitions—I will come back to that. We also need to remember the lessons of history: locking people up for mental illness has been mired in ethical and political scandal over many years. We all can cite the former Soviet Union, where political dissidents were labelled mentally ill, but even in democracies it was not until 1973 that the American Psychiatric Association voted to declassify homosexuality as a mental disorder—and let us not forget those unmarried mothers who were sectioned in the 20th century.
However, even with this misuse of psychiatric power, it is still possible to be a defender of liberty—such as myself, I hope—and yet acknowledge the need for some people to have their liberty restricted because of their mental health. Many years ago, when I worked for Mind, this was a very polarising debate; but I argued then, and continue to believe, that when someone is severely psychotic, manic or out of their mind, psychiatric coercion is not a violation of individual autonomy. That is because the subject at that point in time—“at that point in time” is key—is not autonomous in any moral sense.
However, is release not different? And that brings me to the issue of community treatment orders. Along with others, I too would like them to be abolished. The general problem of CTOs was well explained by Dr Ken McLaughlin is his pamphlet Escaping the Straitjacket of Mental Health. In it, he makes the point that, while the case for compulsion can be justified at the point of hospital admission, when the patient is likely to be in an acutely psychotic state, can compulsion be justified at the time of hospital discharge when the patient should have mental capacity restored? Prior to 2007 and CTOs, on leaving hospital, an ex-patient regained their full rights of citizenship, including the right to refuse medical treatment. The problem of being released with a CTO is that you return to the community as neither a patient nor a citizen. This hybrid state is troubling in terms of compromising civil liberties.
I tend to agree with the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and others: at the very least I question why the Bill will allow indefinite CTOs to occur. I agree with the Centre for Mental Health’s call for the safeguard of time limits, and then CTOs could be extended only if there was proof of proportionality for the individuals concerned.
The question of indefinite “coercive orders” inevitably reminds us of the plight of the almost 3,000 prisoners held indefinitely behind prison bars under the abolished and discredited IPP sentence. Many of these people are incarcerated in prisons precisely because their mental health has deteriorated as they have been refused release, even on licence; a sort of unacknowledged section is happening here. What is more, shockingly, a wide range of experts now blame this very sentencing regime as the cause of IPP prisoners’ mental distress. The hopelessness—“psychological terror”, as it has been described—of never-ending sentences has literally driven prisoners to lose their minds, and even their lives through suicide.
So, while I am delighted the Bill will remove prisons from the list of places of safety, how does it help IPP prisoners? They are deemed too mentally unwell to be released safely. Their illness is derived at least partly from a shameful state mistake, yet IPP prisoners are coercively detained indefinitely in institutions that the Bill would have the state now deem as unsafe for those with serious mental illness.
One case that has recently attracted headlines illustrates an IPP prisoner’s plight as it relates to the Bill. Forty year-old Thomas White has served 12 years as part of his indefinite IPP for a non-violent theft of a mobile phone in 2012. According to his psychiatrist, Thomas developed his religious hallucinations and psychosis as a direct result of being on an IPP sentence. His sister Clara has been campaigning for over a year to have Thomas transferred to a hospital, but his recent assessment appointment was cancelled due to staff shortages. Clara notes despairingly:
“We waited a long time to have Thomas assessed again by the psychiatrist. We more than likely won’t get the assessment again. The system is nothing but criminal—people like my brother are being seriously failed”.
James Frith, the Labour MP for Bury North, agrees. He said:
“Thomas’s indefinite imprisonment has had a hugely detrimental impact on his mental and physical wellbeing. Thomas should be a patient, not a prisoner”.
Hear, hear.
Things are little better for the general prison population. The annual report from the Chief Inspector of Prisons complains of high healthcare staff vacancy rates and chronic recruitment and retention issues. In that context, Richard Garside, the director of the Centre for Crime and Justice Studies, concludes that the provision in Clause 35 to introduce a statutory target of 28 days for transfer from prison to hospital, while welcome, feels aspirational rather than practically implementable in the current system.
The broader crisis of staffing and resources and whether it will hinder the Bill, as we have seen in jails, is also mirrored outside the prison gates. Many briefings that we have all received for this Second Reading query whether the Bill will deliver its promises as a consequence of such problems.
I will now raise a related concern. I think that overstretched mental health services are not just a question of resources but rather a consequence of a recent cultural trend: the problematic medicalisation of more and more aspects of the human condition. Ever greater numbers of people are being encouraged—often by Government-backed policies—to view normal, if adverse or perhaps painful, life events through the prism of mental illness. As a consequence, a greater number of people now demand expert pharmacological or therapeutic intervention.
Over recent decades, this huge increase in classification in the psychological realm has moved the job of diagnosis far beyond the field of psychiatry. A veritable industry of counsellors, therapists and psychotherapeutic practitioners now label an ever-expanding set of behaviours as mental ill-health. As the number of labelled conditions has grown, those reporting that they suffer from such problems has risen exponentially. The stats bandied around are eye-watering. According to the psychologist Oliver James, a third of the adult population shows sign of “psychiatric morbidity”. The problems of worklessness and sick leave, which the Government are rightly tackling, seem dominated by those who have removed themselves from productive work because of mental health-related problems.
Student Minds reports that one in three students experiences clinical levels of psychological distress, but as it is now claimed that students might suffer PTSD if exposed to certain literary texts, it is difficult to assess the clinical authenticity of the so-called mental ill-health epidemic among the young.
The main thing is that the pathologising of ever more aspects of life has unintended consequences, some pertinent to the Bill. For example, we risk reducing the time and resources available to those who desperately need professional help if the system is clogged up with inappropriate referrals and arguably overdiagnosed conditions.
Finally, there is a danger of confusing public opinion if the true horrors and tragedy of serious psychotic illness are relativised and given the same mental health moniker as unpleasant but mundane psychological challenges.
Lord Adebowale (CB)
My Lords, this has been a fascinating debate so far. It is an honour to contribute and to listen to so many learned Peers around the House. In fact, earlier on I detected an almost kumbaya moment around the agreement on some of the aspects of the Bill.
I declare my interest as chair of the NHS Confederation, which is a membership organisation representing health and care leaders in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. We have the privilege of having 100% of all mental health trust leaders in membership.
This debate is overdue, just as updating the Mental Health Act is long overdue. I could not help thinking, during the contributions of the noble Lords, Lord Meston and Lord Scriven, that if we were to go back to 1959, this House would be of archaeological interest before we got anywhere near where we have got to today—so we shall start where we are and continue to make the Bill the best it can be.
I should also point out that a member of my family is on the autistic spectrum, so I get it, just as people who have that experience also get it.
Organisations such as the NHS Confederation have warned that the success of reforms will be dependent on the wider infrastructure to support them. My first question to the Minister is: can she confirm that as well as the important measures in the Bill, we will see further details in next spring’s spending review and in the 10-year NHS plan about how patients and staff working in mental health will be supported in years to come?
The Bill is welcome, not least because it is intended to stop people with learning disabilities and autistic people from being detained long-term, unless they also have a serious mental health condition, but only when there is sufficient and appropriate community care in place to support them. It is clear, therefore, that a plan on how this capacity will be built up is vital; otherwise, people will continue to be detained inappropriately. Can the Minister provide more details on what the Government will do to ensure that we see that capacity is built up, so that people with learning disabilities and autistic people are able to benefit from the support that community care can provide?
Concerns have also been highlighted to me by many of our members and other organisations that the changes for people with learning disabilities and autistic people may unintentionally risk these groups falling into the criminal justice system due to a lack of community provision, as mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins. This is similar to the changes in New Zealand she referred to, which led to people with learning disabilities and autistic people sometimes being sent to prison and left neglected in the community or admitted to forensic facilities as secure patients, as they were unable to be detained under its equivalent of the Mental Health Act.
I welcome the safeguards that the changes relating to people with learning disabilities and autistic people will be enacted only once sufficient provision is in place. Can the Minister provide more details on what the Government will do to ensure that capacity is built up so that people with learning disabilities and autistic people are not inappropriately—and indeed unintentionally—detained for many years, often far away from home and for very long periods?
The Government are committed to enacting the changes to detention regarding people with learning disabilities and autistic people only once sufficient community provision is in place to reduce the risk of these people falling into the criminal justice system. Again, can the Minister outline how the decision to enact this part of the legislation will be made?
The reforms that we are debating introduce duties on commissioners to ensure an adequate supply of community services to prevent inappropriate detentions in hospital, but without a funded plan to build up this provision, there is a risk that the proposed changes to the legislation will never be enacted, and people will continue to be inappropriately detained. Can the Minister say what measures the Government will put in place to help commissioners get it right at local level?
In addition, as the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, mentioned, referring to the 28 days, some people are very concerned that it is not long enough to complete a thorough assessment to identify whether patients with a learning disability or autistic people have a co-occurring mental health disorder, due to the complexity of what patients often present. Does the Minister acknowledge these concerns, and will she remain open to discussions with the sector throughout the passage of the Bill so that the views of those who work day to day with vulnerable people, as well as the views of people with learning disabilities and autistic people and their families, can be fed directly into the legislative process?
It is nice to note that many have referred to the stark racial inequalities in the use of CTOs, and wider concerns around their use. However, mental health providers and many professionals agree that they can be beneficial to patients as they can be the least restrictive option, and we welcome the Government’s commitment to reviewing CTOs. Can the Minister share details about the scope and timescale of this review?
The NHS Confederation has raised concerns about high vacancy rates across the sector, which are bound to impact on staff capacity. Again, can the Minister give assurances that this will be addressed as soon as possible, if not as part of this legislation then through the upcoming 10-year plan or the review of the NHS workforce plan? This was mentioned by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London, and indeed the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, whose points on data I also agree with.
The NHS Confederation has pointed out that more opportunities for patients to challenge their detention are likely to increase the number of tribunal hearings. This would require an additional 33% expansion of the in-patient responsible clinician workforce. Given that national consultant psychiatrist vacancy rates are currently around 10% to 15%, this will be very challenging. With the Government set to publish an updated long-term workforce plan for the NHS next year, as mentioned earlier, can the Minister give an assurance there will be measures in this plan to specifically tackle workforce shortages in mental health?
In referring back to the issue of racial inequality, the patient and carer race equality framework is the key vehicle in reducing the racial disparities that exist in the Mental Health Act and in wider services—which mean, for example, as we mentioned, that black people are far more likely to be detained under the Act or to be placed on a community treatment order than white people. The so-called PCREF is not part of legislation, but all mental health providers are expected to implement it. Concerns exist that the lack of understanding of the framework, as well as the lack of resources available, are hampering its implementation. Again, will the Minister consider using legislation to address these concerns?
Racial disparities are a significant issue, and the NHS Confederation has described the disparities in rates of detention of people from different racial backgrounds as unacceptable—I agree. For example, black people are more than three times more likely to be detained under the Mental Health Act. There is evidence that advance choice documents reduce racial disparities in the level of detentions. This led to many in the sector calling for them to be made statutory. Indeed, this was recommended by both the Mental Health Act review and the pre-legislative scrutiny committee which looked at the draft Bill. Can the Minister set out why advance choice documents will not be made statutory? Is she confident that measures in the Bill concerning such documents will help reduce those racial disparities in detention rates? There are very few evidential interventions that actually reduce racial disparities, so let us use the one that we know works.
The NHS Confederation has highlighted concerns that the new criteria for detention set out in the Bill—namely, that serious harm may be caused—need to be defined. If they are not, we risk inconsistency in how the definition is interpreted. Will the Minister come forward with a definition of what constitutes serious harm so that there can be no doubt about what this means in practice?
Funding for new mental health crisis centres announced in the Autumn Budget was welcome, but we need to see more funding provided for the NHS and mental health in the coming years. As the confederation has pointed out, successful implementation of the legislation we are debating will depend on ensuring that the workforce and resources are in place. That includes capital funding to improve the safety and therapeutic environments of in-patient wards. I have seen some shocking places, as no doubt many noble Lords have. Can the Minister say whether, alongside these much-needed reforms, we will see further funding for mental health in next spring’s spending review? I urge her to speed dial the Treasury.
The Government estimate the overall cost of the reforms to be around £5.3 billion for housing, health and social care costs and £313 million for costs to the justice system in England and Wales. The upcoming 10-year plan and next spring’s spending review are key opportunities for the Government to acknowledge what is needed to enact these reforms. The money for the NHS in the Budget was very welcome. I am a big fan of £22 billion for the NHS, but will the Minister give an assurance that further funding will be made available so that these reforms have the best chance of being effective?
The Government’s commitment to shift more care into the community is welcome because it supports better patient outcomes and is a more efficient use of funding. However, the NHS Confederation and I are among those who have pointed out that we need to make sure that the right provision is in place for that community care. Can the Minister provide assurance today that the Government acknowledge this, and can she set out the Government’s plans to ensure that we have this provision?
As the NHS Confederation pointed out recently, on behalf of our members, people with mental health needs and those with learning disabilities—
Lord Cryer (Lab)
Let me just point out that the limit of nine minutes is voluntary, but a lot of people want to speak.