Westminster Hall

Tuesday 1st November 2011 Westminster Hall

Tuesday 1 November 2011

[Mr James Gray in the Chair]

UK Relations: Libya

Tuesday 1st November 2011 Westminster Hall

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting be now adjourned.—(Mr Newmark.)

09:30

[Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)]

Thank you for calling me to speak in the debate, Mr Gray. Some time ago, the late Robin Cook—a man of considerable intellect and experience—spoke about an ethical foreign policy. This new drive, which would shape Britain’s engagement with countries around the world, would be based on our ability to engage in a more ethical way in the modern era, thus protecting our image and branding throughout the international community. Was that a naive objective? As I say, it was formulated and proposed by somebody with considerable experience, and it was certainly a commendable aspiration.

However, following the disastrous engagement in Iraq, and the illegal war that the Labour party pursued there, Mr Blair had a problem with his party and the country. He therefore sought out somebody who would enable him to show the world that although he was making war by force, he could also make peace through international diplomacy. Who better to choose than an isolated figure, ridiculed in the Arab League, with no friends? Mr Blair chose Colonel Gaddafi, who was so bereft of friends that he could be enticed into the little deal—the little charade or rapprochement—that Mr Blair pursued with him.

We were told at the time that as a quid pro quo for this rapprochement, the weapons of mass destruction that Colonel Gaddafi had amassed would be handed over and sent for evaluation and, ultimately, dismantling somewhere in North Carolina in the United States of America. I do not know about you, Mr Gray, but I do not know what those weapons of mass destruction consisted of, how many there were, or what their quality and calibre was. For all I know, Gaddafi may have had just a pea-shooter; his total inability to defend himself in the recent war certainly shows a rather chaotic approach to military strategy.

I did not want rapprochement with Gaddafi, purely because I knew from many friends in Libya, and from having visited the country, of the appalling human rights abuses that this tyrant perpetrated against his people over decades. I hope Members will agree that that does not fit in with the ethical foreign policy espoused with such fanfare by the previous Labour Government.

I have a gripe with not just the Labour Government, but the Scottish National party Government in Scotland. When they were about to release the convicted bomber al-Megrahi, I pleaded with Alex Salmond and the Scottish Justice Secretary not to do so. I also pleaded with the former Labour Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), on the Floor of the House to intervene with the Scottish Government to prevent the bomber being released. Of course, he told me, “This is nothing to do with us. This is a purely Scottish matter.” Despite the fact that releasing al-Megrahi could have had huge ramifications for the United Kingdom’s foreign policy, the previous Labour Government said, “It’s nothing to do with us.” I am absolutely convinced that our current Prime Minister would not have acted in such a way.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend regret that the Scottish Government have not apologised for what happened, given that although their action was taken on the assumption that the man had less than six months to live, he is, as far as I know, still alive?

[Daniel Kawczynski]

Yes, I totally concur with my hon. Friend. Indeed, I think that we were told that he had less than three months, not six months, to live, but he is still alive somewhere in Tripoli, two years on.

So passionately did I feel about the release of al-Megrahi that I even travelled to Qatar for an international conference. In front of a totally Arab audience in debates in Doha, I and others won the debate on a motion saying that the house deplored the release of the Lockerbie bomber. A young girl from the United Arab Emirates told me, “On the one hand, you expect us to join you in your war against international terrorism, but on the other hand, you are releasing a convicted bomber who was involved in the worst terrorist atrocity committed on UK soil since the second world war.” That was a very salient, pertinent point, and it certainly stuck in my mind.

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

I thank my hon. Friend for securing this important debate. Does he agree that the release of al-Megrahi marked the low point in the previous Government’s appeasement of Gaddafi? Does he also agree that they were hiding behind the fig leaf of devolution, given all the revelations that there have been about the surrounding commercial deals between them and Libya at the time?

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I totally concur with my hon. Friend. The United Kingdom’s reputation was greatly damaged at the time. As I suggested, other Arab League leaders were so contemptuous of this bizarre, tyrannical clown that they told me and others, “If the United Kingdom cannot grapple effectively with Gaddafi, who can they effectively engage with and have a meaningful relationship with?”.

I stopped the previous Labour Foreign Secretary, the right hon. Member for South Shields (David Miliband)—the man who aspired to lead the Labour party—in the Members’ Lobby to ask him about PC Yvonne Fletcher. The Foreign Office had ignored her relatives for years—letter after letter had gone ignored—so to get him finally to meet them, I had to write an open letter on Conservative Home demanding that he did so. Before I did that, however, I stopped him in the Members’ Lobby and asked him to raise these issues and to assist me in fighting for PC Yvonne Fletcher and the victims of the IRA, who had suffered because of Gaddafi’s funding of it. To quote him verbatim, he said, “Don’t rock the boat now, Kawczynski. We’re in very delicate negotiations with Colonel Gaddafi—rapprochement. We don’t want you rocking the boat.” He basically told me to shut up and not to try to stir things up. That is why I believe his judgment was wrong, and why I commend the Labour party on not electing him as leader; I do not think that he is fit to be the leader of the Labour party, given his action then.

I hope that the shadow Minister will agree that this was not Labour’s best moment or its finest hour. How would the Libyan people view us now, if all they had to go on was the incredible rapprochement between Mr Blair and Colonel Gaddafi, and all the pictures of them smiling together in the tent where they met? I contrast that with the superb leadership that our current Prime Minister has shown in helping to secure UN resolution 1973 in order to ensure that NATO’s intervention to protect the citizens of Libya was legal.

I remember going back to my apartment after a late-night vote in February, and watching Colonel Gaddafi on Sky News promising that he would hunt the rebels down city by city, street by street and wardrobe by wardrobe—that was the expression he used. He promised the world that a bloodbath would ensue on the streets of Benghazi and Tobruk if he were given an unfettered opportunity to pursue that. That night I texted the Prime Minister’s Parliamentary Private Secretary three or four times, pleading with him to take the message to the Prime Minister that we must intervene to help those courageous people in Libya, fighting for their freedom against a brutal tyrant. I thank the Prime Minister for taking the decision to support the people, and I rejoice in, and thank God for, the fact that not a single member of British service personnel lost their life. If we contrast that with previous military operations, we see that it is something for which we should all be extremely grateful.

Our interaction with Libya reminds me of something that the Prime Minister said at the Conservative party conference:

“It’s not the size of the dog in the fight—it’s the size of the fight in the dog”.

That encapsulates how, despite the extraordinary problems that this country has—the huge economic deficit that the Labour party so kindly bequeathed us—we can still intervene around the world and help people who are worse off than us, and protect them when they struggle for the freedom that we have enjoyed for such a long time.

Among the things that I have done as a Member of Parliament in the past six years, one of the most pertinent to this debate and the most solemn has been to stand in the British war cemetery in Tripoli. It has beautiful green grass, immaculately cut, and beautiful headstones, immaculately washed. It contrasts with the surrounding district, which is rather shabby and dusty. I stood for hours looking at the headstones of our young service personnel who died so tragically, liberating Tripoli during the second world war. It is deeply striking that so many of them were so young: 22 or 23—some as young as 20. They all died in January 1942 in the liberation of Tripoli, and there is row after row of headstones. I hope that those sacrifices during the second world war, and what we have done, today show the people of Libya that they can trust and depend on us. I pay tribute to a dear friend of mine from my constituency—Mr Ted Sharp, who was a desert rat. I have spent many hours listening to his stories of how there were no food supplies at one stage; some of the desert rats were like skeletons. They went through terrible suffering to free Libya.

The manner in which Colonel Gaddafi died rather shocked me, but I did not shed many tears for his passing. The way in which he was killed shows how despised he was by the Libyan people, but I was disappointed that he was not captured and put on trial. It would have given me great satisfaction to see him atone for the brutality he meted out to his own people for so long.

[Robert Halfon]

Does my hon. Friend agree that what happened to Gaddafi and the manner of his death make it all the more important that his family be put on trial, both in Libya and the International Court of Justice, to ensure that the rule of law is followed, and that those people atone properly for their crimes?

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I very much agree with my hon. Friend.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

At the point of capture, it is difficult to control forces that were not particularly under control in the first place; the testosterone is flowing. People probably just wanted to get rid of Gaddafi there and then. I do not blame those soldiers who killed Gaddafi. Like my hon. Friend, I regret it, but I understand exactly what was going on. They were in the height of battle, their testosterone was flowing, and they just went for it and killed him, because he was the tyrant.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I agree. In fact, my understanding is that one of the people involved in his death was from Misrata, and his sister had been raped by Libyan soldiers loyal to Colonel Gaddafi, so I concur with my hon. Friend.

To return to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon), I have tabled an early-day motion on the issue, calling on the Government of Niger to respect international law and acquiesce in ensuring that the relevant members of the Gaddafi clan—up to 30 loyalists are allegedly in Niger—are extradited to the International Court of Justice at The Hague. My first question to the Minister is this: what discussions is his Department having with the Government of Niger—and with the Governments of Mali and Algeria, where other Gaddafi loyalists are said to be seeking sanctuary? The most important of those loyalists is, of course, Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, who apparently is hovering somewhere around the Libya-Niger border. I hope that that man will not be killed. I would like him to be brought to justice in the Court at The Hague, and would like to hear what the Minister is doing to interact with the Government of Niger, and others, to achieve that.

[Bob Stewart]

I apologise for making a second intervention, but I have given evidence in five trials at The Hague, and the writ of the International Criminal Court runs only when a national jurisdiction has indicated that it has no intention of trying individuals who have committed war crimes in its territory. I should like the Gaddafi family and their supporters to go back to Libya. There will be a problem, because of the death penalty, but that is what I should like, because it is how the Court should work. A national jurisdiction tries those in question first, and if that does not work, they go to The Hague. I would prefer those people to go back to Tripoli.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

That is an interesting point, and the Minister will have to deal with the Government’s position on that. Do we want those people sent to The Hague, or should they go to Libya? I defer to the experience of my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) in those matters.

I am very supportive of the national transitional council, but I am deeply concerned—I feel passionate about it—that there has been no plebiscite. No referendum has been announced on the sort of constitution that the country will have. We have been told that there will be parliamentary elections in eight months’ time, and presidential elections in 18 months. I am extremely concerned that the NTC has already unilaterally decided to state that there will be presidential elections. I think that the last thing the Libyan people want is another Head of State who is a politician. They need to be consulted, so that they can decide what sort of constitution they want. I think that they want a unifying figure: someone who commands respect throughout the country, who is untainted by any previous association with the Gaddafi regime, and who can bring the whole country together in a unifying way. I am not embarrassed to put those issues forward; I do not flinch from doing so. Yes, it is a matter for the Libyan people, but our country has put our service personnel’s lives at risk, and we have a right to advise and caution the NTC in that regard.

[Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. He is making a fairly straightforward case about international justice and constitutional law, which I follow and by and large agree with. Is he concerned, as I am, about the stories coming out regarding atrocities committed by anti-Gaddafi forces?

[Daniel Kawczynski]

Yes. The hon. Gentleman makes a good point; there are allegations of atrocities on both sides. My hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham talked about testosterone and the desire to take revenge, and we have heard that serious human rights violations and massacres have taken place, such as the shooting of up to 50 Gaddafi loyalists with their hands tied behind their backs in Sirte. The hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) raises an important point, and I would like to hear from the Minister what the Government’s attitude is to ensuring that people are brought to justice.

I believe that the unifying figure who is untainted by Gaddafi and who commands respect in Libya is Crown Prince Mohammed, the heir to the Libyan throne. I have had the great honour and privilege of meeting him; he has lived in London since Gaddafi exiled him and his father from Libya. Gaddafi burned their house down in front of them and then banished them, and they have lived in London ever since. Crown Prince Mohammed’s father subsequently died, but His Royal Highness continues to live in London. Having met him on numerous occasions, I consider him to be, if I may say so, a friend. He is a tremendous counsellor, and I respect him greatly. I have met many leaders around the world in the past six years, but few of them have impressed me as much as Crown Prince Mohammed.

A few weeks ago, I raised directly with the Prime Minister how important it is for him, or at least one of his aides, to meet Crown Prince Mohammed to seek his guidance and views. Foreign Office officials have met Crown Prince Mohammed, but to my knowledge no Foreign Office Minister has yet met him, which I am concerned about. I understand that the Foreign Office does not want to be seen to be manipulating the situation in Tripoli—of course it is for the Libyan people to make decisions—but a member of the el-Senussi family who has extraordinary respect in his own country is living in London; the least the Foreign Office can do is engage with him effectively and properly and find out from him what is happening on the streets of Libya.

The Foreign Office will of course be told a lot by the national transitional council about what the council wants the Foreign Office to know, but I am hearing from Libya—from town councils and the people on the streets of Tobruk, Benghazi and other cities—that many people are holding exhibitions about the history of Libya, which is something that they were deprived of under Gaddafi. Many people are holding exhibitions about the royal family, the late King Idris and Crown Prince Mohammed.

The Foreign Office must be careful. Having spent so much taxpayer money on pursuing the liberation of Libya, we want to ensure that the Libyan people are consulted, and that their will comes through. If they wish to have a constitutional monarchy, as I believe they do, that should be put to them in a referendum, so that they can decide of their own accord, rather than the unelected NTC unilaterally deciding that the Libyan people should have a politician as their Head of State in perpetuity.

[Bob Stewart]

I, too, have met Crown Prince Mohammed, although he is not as big a friend to me as he is to my hon. Friend. I know that Crown Prince Mohammed has had contact with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, so it is fully aware of the situation. I subscribe totally to my hon. Friend’s contention that there should be a general election before a presidential one, and I, too, would like someone such as Crown Prince Mohammed to become Libya’s Head of State. However, it cannot be done just like that; the Libyan people have to ask for it. That is fair.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I agree with my hon. Friend, but after 42 years of absolute and tyrannical despotism, it is not unreasonable to have a referendum or plebiscite. Let the people decide. Give them the options. We in this country had a ludicrous referendum on changing the voting system, which I was furious about, as chairman of the all-party group for the promotion of first past the post.

[Mr James Gray (in the Chair)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman is straying off the subject.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

Sorry, Mr Gray. I had to get that one in; I could not resist. If we can have referendums on trivia such as changing the voting system, the people of Libya should be given the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to decide what constitution they want. I thank God that we have such a wonderful Head of State as Her Majesty. Some of the most stable countries in the world, such as Denmark, have monarchies. Interestingly, even in the Arab world, people have not rebelled or shown hostility to Governments in countries that have monarchies. I therefore think that monarchy is a stabilising factor.

I would like Niger to hand over Saif al-Islam and others associated with Gaddafi’s regime either to Libya, as my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham suggested, or the Court in The Hague. I want Saif al-Islam to be captured alive, and I hope that the Government will give me their perspective on that. Do they, too, want him captured alive, so that he can account for some of the crimes committed?

I would like the Government to help the Libyan authorities to find all the money stolen—the billions that have been squirreled away in vaults and bank accounts all over the world, from Liechtenstein to the Cayman Islands. Given the expertise that we have in our country, we should offer the Libyan Government some assistance. London is the financial capital of the world, and we can play a part in helping the Libyan authorities to find all the frozen and other assets that have hitherto not been traced.

One of the most important aspects of the matter is compensation for IRA victims. Colonel Gaddafi provided the IRA with Semtex for many years. I was slightly concerned to read a report in The Sunday Times last week that a private law firm was already asking the NTC to hand over £450 million in compensation. I have two concerns about that. First, that is unduly hasty. Although I am desperate for the families of IRA victims to receive compensation, it might be slightly too hasty to start asking for £450 million in compensation when Libya is practically on its knees, with limited electricity, water and other supplies, even though I would support such a request in the future.

Secondly—I shall emphasise this time and again—I certainly do not want a private law firm to be responsible for bilateral negotiations with the Libyan Government on compensation for IRA victims. It is not for a private law firm to undertake that huge job. I want every single penny piece of that money, when it is handed over, to go to the victims of IRA atrocities. I do not want a private law firm to get £1 million, £2 million, £10 million or £15 million—according to the various reports—of that money. Every single penny piece has to go to the victims. I have raised that point with the Prime Minister in a private meeting, and I expect to hear from the Foreign Office that it will take responsibility for the negotiations to ensure that the private law firm does not make any profit out of the case. We, the state, sacrificed hundreds of millions of pounds and put the lives of our service personnel at risk to liberate Libya, and it is for us to ensure that compensation goes to the victims of IRA atrocities. We do not want some private law firm dishing out the money and making the profits.

Christmas eve will mark the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Libya. I would love to attend the celebrations, but obviously I must be with my family at that time. I am sure that the Libyans would greatly appreciate it if somebody from the Foreign Office went to Tripoli to celebrate their 60th anniversary of freedom.

Will the Minister tell us what will happen about the prosecution of the killer of PC Yvonne Fletcher? Are we happy for this matter to be brought to justice in a Libyan court, or do we want the killer to be extradited to the United Kingdom? In the past, I have said that British justice could not be attained in a Libyan court under Gaddafi’s jurisdiction. During the Gaddafi regime, Scotland Yard had been going back and forth between Tripoli and the UK, and when it was close to getting its man, Gaddafi, in yet another game of cat and mouse, stopped issuing visas. However, things have changed, so I would be interested to hear what our line on that is.

When the new Secretary of State for Defence went to Libya, he said to British companies, “Pack your bags and come here to reconstruct Libya.” I totally agree with him; there are huge opportunities for British firms to help with the reconstruction of Libya. Will the Minister tell us what UK Trade & Investment is doing on that? I had the pleasure of meeting Lord Green, the head of UKTI, in the House of Commons recently, and he told me about some of the changes that he wants to put in place to make his organisation more effective. I would like to know exactly what is happening on the ground.

Many consultants have come to see me and have said, “Look, we have been tasked with finding various companies to do x, y and z in Libya, but we cannot find British companies to do it. The only companies that are prepared to do anything are Danish, Austrian or German, and we are desperate to find a British company to carry out the work.” British companies are hesitant about going to Libya because of security issues and other such matters. I very much regret that. We are the ones who go in and liberate the country, and then everyone else goes in and gets all the business. The British are rather circumspect about such things, but we cannot afford to be. We should not be embarrassed to go out there with our companies for the mutually beneficial reason of reconstructing the country. We must stop this British sentimentality. We must not think, “Oh no, we must not sully our fingers with the business aspects of this.”

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr Jeremy Browne)]

I would not normally interrupt a speech at this point, but I would like to reassure my hon. Friend on this niche specific issue. Lord Green went to Libya in late September, and there have been conferences here on investment opportunities in Libya. The UKTI staff are very much part of our team at the embassy in Tripoli. I hope that efforts are being made—efforts that my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) will support—because we are well aware of the opportunities, and wish to seize them in the proper way.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I thank the Minister for that. I recently had a meeting with a lieutenant-colonel who had served in Basra. He told me that when he met Mr Blair, he said, “Okay, we brought peace to Basra, so where are all the suits?”. In other words, he wanted to know why Mr Blair had not brought in British companies to reconstruct Basra. Some of the huge problems that we have had in Iraq stem from the fact that we were too slow in bringing in British companies to reconstruct the country. However, we could not have just said, “Look, pack your bags and go to Iraq.” Many companies would have found that difficult, and we are now saying the same of Libya.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

In my constituency, there are a number of companies that are very keen to do business in the region. The trip that the Minister mentioned may have been an opportunity for them to do just that, but the incentive for British business to get involved is not fully pushed by Government. Does the hon. Gentleman feel that the Government should do more to encourage local companies, especially when so many are keen to do business?

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I have had meetings with leading industrialists, and with various Army officers who have served in Iraq and other parts of the world and who have experience of such matters. We have compiled a report, which we will send to the Prime Minister and the Minister, outlining some of the things that the Government have to put in place to ensure that there is confidence, and encouragement for British companies to go out there. The French are brilliant at that; they have a body called COFACE, which I visited in Paris many years ago. It is a nationwide organisation that insures, underpins and takes some of the risk out of French companies going abroad and investing in such projects. The Government should start up a similar insurance fund. We will put in £50 million, the Libyans will put in £50 million, and we will get another few hundred million from wealthy Arab countries. We will then pool the money, and it will act as an insurance policy for British companies that are reconstructing Libya.

I will send the report to the Minister, as well as to the Prime Minister, because we must get a grip on the issue. I could tell the Minister the names of hundreds of companies that I have met in the past six months that would like to work in Libya, but do not know how to go about it. They ask me about guarantees and about what kind of political support is in place.

Yesterday, I met the Labour peer, Baroness Symons, whom I respect greatly. She said that there had been good engagement with Libya previously. I hope that the Minister is aware that the Law Society has been in Libya to help with the rule of law and arbitration. The British Council has operated in Libya, advising on issues to do with women. Welsh universities have signed memorandums of understanding with the Libyan Education Minister to work and interact with Libyan universities. The Westminster Foundation for Democracy has been helping to develop democratic institutions and civil society. Crown Agents were also in the country, working on anti-corruption measures. Those wonderful institutions were already working in Libya under Gaddafi, and I pay tribute to the previous Labour Government for getting them into the country. However, I do not know how successful those institutions were under the brutal Gaddafi regime. Certainly, now that Libya is free, I hope that the Minister will do everything possible to help the Law Society, the British Council, Welsh universities, the Westminster Foundation for Democracy, Crown Agents and others to get to Libya to underpin all that work and to help start reconstructing the country.

The European Union had negotiations with the Gaddafi regime on various trade agreements, and I hope that those are speeded up as well. Apparently, Dominic Asquith has been a representative of Her Majesty’s Government in Libya, and I am keen to know what his views are.

Libya has been a passion for me all my life. When I was growing up in Poland under the communist regime, we had nothing. The regime was brutal and tyrannical, and everything was rationed. My late uncle and his family worked in Libya, and they used to send oranges from Tripoli to Warsaw. Receiving those oranges at kindergarten was like a miraculous experience. Children in Warsaw in 1978 did not know what oranges were; we had never seen these things. We peeled the oranges delicately, we ate them, we made marmalade out of the peel, we drew them and we talked about them. They were incredible to us. Of course, most days now I peel an orange and I do not think about it, but as a child in 1978 I thought, “What sort of paradise must this be for them to have these sorts of things?”. My interest in Libya has stemmed from that early childhood experience.

I love the Libyan people and I love Libya. I am so passionate about the country, and I am so grateful that the brutal tyrant has been deposed. I look forward to the people of the UK having a very strong friendship with the people of Libya for the rest of my lifetime.

10:11

[Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)]

Thank you very much, Mr Gray, for calling me to speak. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) on securing this timely debate. In introducing it, he once again showed his expertise and personal experience, and we are indeed lucky to have him. He set out a compelling account of some of the legacy issues involved in the future of Libya, and he raised other important issues.

As we know, a week ago on 23 October the national transitional council of Libya celebrated the country’s new-found and hard-fought independence. That marked the end of the first chapter in a new story for Libya. Back in March, I welcomed UN Security Council resolutions 1970 and 1973, as well as NATO’s Operation Unified Protector. It was my view then, and it remains my view today, that we could not have stood by and watched the inevitable bloody reprisals of a despotic regime. We were right to take action, and we were right to do so with the clear backing of international law and indeed of neighbouring countries.

Like my hon. Friend, I commend our forces, who stood in harm’s way in the long tradition of our military’s fight against tyranny. However, the success that should be praised above all, as my hon. Friend so eloquently put it, belongs to the Libyan people who rose up, defied a dictator and seized control of their own destiny. They are doubly brave, because they have not only thrown off the shackles of the Gaddafi state but embarked on the long and arduous journey towards a free and democratic society of their own choosing.

As we have seen in other countries during the Arab spring, and indeed as we have seen throughout history, democracy is a long and hard journey, and it is not a quick or close destination. Like the people of every democracy, including the British people, the Libyans have much work to do, and we must help them whenever they ask for it. Securing the future of Libya must now be a priority for Her Majesty’s Government.

Since the end of the conflict, we have seen swift action by the Department for International Development to put in place a programme of humanitarian aid. That work builds on DFID’s success during the conflict in providing much needed aid on the ground in Libya—at the borders and inside the Libyan border—to help those who needed help most. DFID’s work has been seamless with the work of other organisations, such as the World Health Organisation, the International Organisation for Migration and the International Committee of the Red Cross. It is right that DFID continues to play a leading role in the stabilisation and reconstruction efforts in Libya.

As we know, the national transitional council itself has called for a continuing NATO military presence in the region. I, like many others in the House, welcomed the end of NATO military operations in Libya at midnight last night, but we must be prepared to offer assistance if the need for it arises. Consequently, I welcome the recent visit of the Chief of the Defence Staff to the Doha conference on Libya and the support that he offered to the national transitional council, in terms of assistance with specific capability requests for military support as Libya makes its transition to democracy.

With the end of military operations and the return to relative peace and normality, a new and exciting chapter in Libyan history is beginning. It is my view that Britain must build on the work that we have started with the Libyans—for example, we are already providing support for policing. I commend the work of the stabilisation unit to date, and I hope that the Minister will give assurances that it will be properly resourced in the future. We must continue to help to build the institutions of a civil society and to promote the rule of law.

It is vital that the relevant Departments of the UK Government involved in all areas of reconstruction, assistance, enterprise and business work together in a co-ordinated fashion to achieve the optimum results in the shortest possible time. Unco-ordinated efforts run the risk of duplicating work, wasting resources and hampering the emergence of a well-defined, strong and confident Libya.

We should also be working with other countries involved in the reconstruction of Libya, particularly our NATO partners. It would be nonsense if we succeeded in working together to protect the Libyan people in war but were unable to help them coherently in peace.

[Bob Stewart]

The most important matter that must be addressed by those in authority in Libya is ensuring the security and well-being of the Libyan people. Unless those aims are achieved and unless they remain a constant focus, we run the risk of other, less scrupulous people seizing power in Libya. Also, I totally accept the hon. Gentleman’s point that we could put British military teams into Libya to help to train the Libyan armed forces.

[Stephen Gilbert]

The hon. Gentleman has made my point far more eloquently than me. He has also pre-empted a point that I will come on to later, which is the deweaponisation of Libya.

Overall, we need to see clear direction on the relative importance of the bilateral support to Libyan efforts. At the moment, DFID is ramping up its efforts in Libya, while the Ministry of Defence is scaling down its efforts. If we are to remain engaged in an integrated way, all Departments need to be at the table, and we need clarity from the Government about our overall objectives. How active will we be, Minister? What is good enough in terms of the peace-building effort? And is our main focus going to be trade, governance, stability or all those issues?

An example of the current confusion is the potential divergence between the DFID-led public safety efforts, which my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham has mentioned, and the MOD’s interest in the security architecture. Unless Her Majesty’s Government know what they are trying to achieve collectively in Libya, it will be hard to determine where the various pieces of the jigsaw fit together.

It is important that we are realistic about what the UN and the EU can and cannot do, and what they will and will not do, in Libya. At present, far too many assumptions are being made in Whitehall that the UN will deliver everything that we want it to deliver in the time frames required. It will not do that, particularly within the security sector. Bilateral engagement with Libya by the UK and our NATO allies will be required, but with a view to bringing in the UN, where possible and as soon as possible.

In seeking to aid Libya in its transition, we must also be mindful of how our actions are seen. We should only seek to help Libyan people at their own behest. All our stabilisation efforts must be owned by the local communities. We must never impose, nor appear to be imposing, our systems, beliefs, culture or demands upon the Libyan people. If there is to be a successful transition in Libya to a strong democratic state, it must be a transition that the Libyans themselves have decided upon. Only then will it become entrenched and real.

Of paramount importance in post-war Libya is ensuring that the very weapons used to free the people do not remain in the country long enough to enslave them once again. When a country is awash with small arms, it is at risk of descending into sectarianism, vigilantism and terror. We are already helping the national transitional council in seeking the dangerous weapons that were stockpiled by Gaddafi, and DFID is already helping with demining projects, but we must go further and encourage a much wider demilitarisation of Libya and its people.

Economically, relations between the UK and the new Libya should now move towards development support and enterprise opportunity. In order to prosper fully, Libya will require serious investment and expertise. To that end, I welcome my hon. Friend’s suggestion that there should be an insurance scheme to protect British businesses as they venture into Libya to set up operations.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I have visited the beautiful Roman ruins in Libya of Leptis Magna and Sabratha, which are the best Roman ruins to be found anywhere around the Mediterranean. Does my hon. Friend agree that there is also huge potential for British tourism in Libya to see not only those ruins but the beautiful Libyan coastline?

[Stephen Gilbert]

There are opportunities not only for British business in reconstruction, but for British tourism and for cultural exchanges between our universities and schools. I hope that the relationship between the UK and Libya will flourish on all levels. I am sure that, as we speak, many travel agencies are considering my hon. Friend’s suggestion.

I repeat my call for a co-ordinated UK and European economic response to the Arab spring. Whether in Libya or elsewhere in the region, it is vital that we deliver the benefits of economic pluralism to the people to sit alongside their new and hard-won political pluralism. The Libyan people have thrown off the yoke of repression and conformity, and we must now play our part in lifting them and others out of poverty. We must work to see a strong, confident and open Libya setting its own destiny, offering our help where necessary and when asked, and finally able to deliver security and prosperity to its people.

10:20

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) on securing the debate. He displays incredible knowledge of the subject, and his book on Gaddafi is an important read. I thank him for setting up the British Mena—middle east and north Africa—Council for parliamentarians, which gives some balance to the debate. I also congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) on his thoughtful remarks.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I am sorry to intervene so early in my hon. Friend’s speech, but he has kindly mentioned my book on Colonel Gaddafi, which I gave to the Prime Minister before the last election. Does he know that in the book I thank him for all his work on Anglo-Libyan relations, referring to him as a rising star in the Conservative party who will be in a future Conservative Government?

[Robert Halfon]

I thank my hon. Friend. Being British, I blush at such compliments. I do not want this to turn into a mutual love-in.

Yesterday marked the end of British military involvement in Libya, seven months after the no-fly zone was authorised, and I would argue that it was one of the most successful NATO operations in history. It proved, all the more importantly after the Iraq conflict, that intervention can work and that Britain can fight for peace and democracy. Although I was disappointed at the manner of Gaddafi’s death because it would have been better for him to be tried in the international courts, I wish that my grandfather, Renato Halfon, was alive now to have seen his demise.

In 1968, after some anti-Jewish pogroms, my grandfather was forced to leave Libya and, as an Italian Jew, he went to Rome. He had planned to return to Tripoli once the pogroms had subsided, but Gaddafi took power in 1969 and all the Jewish businesses and my grandfather’s home were taken. The same thing happened to the Jews and the Italians. Luckily, my grandfather had sent my father to England some years earlier. I love Britain—I was born here and would not live anywhere else—but I feel a deep concoction of Jewish and Italian from Libya, which has been awakened by recent events. I listened with considerable interest to the story that my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham told about being in Poland, particularly the part about the oranges, and about what motivated him to fight for freedom in Libya.

It has been good to have conversations with my father and his friends from Libya to try to understand what it was like in those days. My grandfather had a clothing business and sold clothes to the British, and he always said that they were the only people who paid on time. He loved this country more than anything; he thought that the streets were metaphorically paved with gold and that everyone in England was a gentleman. It is worth remembering that King Idris was installed as monarch of Libya in 1951 by the British, in the aftermath of the war, when Libya gained independence from Italy and the old colonial name Tripolitania disappeared.

Although my grandfather and many other people had contempt for Gaddafi, we must acknowledge that in the early days the colonel was not a monster. My father remembers him becoming a rapidly popular figure, who before the coup used to walk down the famous Italian street in Tripoli, Corso Vittorio Emanuele—I think it is now called Jadat Istiklal—shaking hands with passers-by, including my father, wearing a broad serene smile and speaking loudly. He was articulate and nurtured dreams of pan-Arabism, and because of King Idris’s benign weakness, he became known as the liberator. Astonishing as it might seem, he was seen as sympathetic to western interests, and so the Americans, who controlled the large Wheelus air base outside Tripoli, did nothing to stop the coup d’état against the king. No one imagined that Gaddafi would become the monster he did and impose a 42-year totalitarian regime. Now he has gone, everyone is asking, “What next? Will it be a repeat of Iraq in the aftermath of the overthrow of Saddam Hussein?”

It is worth emphasising that a yearning for freedom is deep in every human breast and should be nurtured and supported. The Libyan people deserve freedom just as much as we do in the west. For years, the realist school of foreign policy—I am sure that the Minister is not of that school—has argued that the middle east is not ready for democracy and that democracy cannot be dropped from a B-52 bomber, but actually it can. The NATO planes showed that by providing cover as the rebels advanced on Tripoli, although that is not the only way to do it. We must remember that liberty is a human right for everyone, whatever their background or race. Sometimes it requires military intervention, and sometimes it requires hearts and minds—so-called soft power. Our foreign policy should be directed at supporting groups of resistance to dictators, and at funding radio and TV stations and the internet, in the same way as the CIA did in the cold war to try to combat communism. Where is the middle east equivalent of Radio Free Europe?

What is not required is appeasement. Appeasement often works in the short term but never in the long. The previous Government, as well as some of our universities and businesses, lost their moral bearings when it came to dealing with the Libyan regime. I happened to support Tony Blair and the invasion of Iraq, yet the complete contrast between that and what his Government did with Libya was astonishing. While senior new Labour Government figures hobnobbed with Gaddafi and his family, academic institutions accepted millions of pounds in blood money from the regime, and companies rushed to Libya to sign commercial deals. The London School of Economics, in perhaps the most shameful episode in the university’s history, went cap in hand to Gaddafi and treated him like some kind of king from over the water. I am glad that one of the professors implicated in that disgusting scandal resigned today, according to reports in The Times.

The leader of the Labour party talks about predator and producer capitalism, and I do not think there has been a more horrific example of predator corporate capitalism than the commercial dealings between the previous Government and so-called big business and the Libya regime. I do not say that to make a party political point; I just cannot get my head around how the previous Government could do some good things in Iraq but behave so disgracefully when it came to Libya. The release of the Lockerbie murderer, al-Megrahi, marked the low point of that kind of appeasement by the establishment, and I would argue that the political establishment’s flirtation with Gaddafi was akin to the appeasement of Hitler before the second world war by British upper-class aristocrats.

In having the courage to support intervention and ignore the armchair generals who said we could not or should not get involved, the Prime Minister did much to correct Britain’s moral compass, but I urge the Minister and the Government to launch a serious inquiry into the previous Government’s relations with Gaddafi. We must learn from what went wrong, so that we never, ever, do such a thing again with such an evil regime.

[Bob Stewart]

It was not so much the armchair generals. The armchair generals were right that we had no land forces that we could have put in. We did what we were able to do, which was to use our Air Force, but we certainly could not put troops on the ground, so the armchair generals and the Government were right to say that we could not do so.

[Robert Halfon]

I bow to my hon. Friend’s incredible experience in these matters, but I was not arguing about what kind of intervention it was. In fact, Britain has shouldered too heavy a burden, and other NATO countries should have done more. However, many so-called armchair generals argued against any intervention per se.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

Many British businessmen coming back from Tripoli have alleged to me that they heard that Mr Blair personally benefited financially from various transactions with the Gaddafi regime—

[Mr James Gray (in the Chair)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman is stepping beyond the usual realms of courtesy in this place.

[Robert Halfon]

I have made my point about the previous Government’s appeasement of Gaddafi, which sets the context, but I understand what my hon. Friend has said.

Of course, getting rid of a tyrant does not mean that we have got rid of tyranny. The experience of much of Iraq shows that the first steps after dictatorship are incredibly important. NATO and western Governments must continue to nurture genuinely democratic forces in post-Gaddafi Libya and help to rebuild the country. Any prospect of extreme Islamists or al-Qaeda gaining ground must be ruthlessly crushed. However, the threat of Islamists should not be overstated. They are less prevalent in northern Africa than in the rest of the middle east. It may take a few years to achieve democracy, but that was also the case in Japan and Germany after the second world war.

I am vice-chairman of the all-party parliamentary group for the autonomous Kurdistan region in Iraq. That region sets a precedent for democracy. The Kurdish people suffered chemical genocide under Saddam Hussein and lived in terror under the Ba’athist regime. I have visited the region, and I have seen the democracy, the rule of law, the religious tolerance, the free press and the vigorous political opposition. It can be done, and the Libyan transitional national council must do the same.

The signs are encouraging. There are reports that the Libyan leader of the opposition invited the representative of Libyan Jews in the UK, Raphael Luzon, back to Tripoli to take part in the political process. Yesterday, I met Mr Luzon, who is a senior Jewish politician, in the House of Commons. He is known by the key people in the transitional council, who, he said yesterday, invited him back to work with the Government and perhaps stand for office, which is a very encouraging sign.

As we reopen our embassy in Tripoli, now is the time for the British Government to encourage the forces of liberalism in Libya. We should impress on the national transitional council interim Government that we stand with them against Islamic fundamentalists, and that we hope they will revive a good relationship with Christians, Jews and other minorities.

I also hope that the Foreign Office can help to obtain compensation for exiled Libyan Jews. Gaddafi’s law 57 of July 1970 gave the Libyan regime powers to seize the property of Jews who had fled after the pogroms of 1967 and before. Not a penny in compensation has been paid to dispossessed Libyan Jews or other victims of the Gaddafi family. As the country reconciles, I ask the Minister to consider compensating victims and the families of those who have been killed with some of the assets sequestered from Gaddafi. We now know that Colonel Gaddafi’s son lived in some splendour in a large house in north London—bizarrely, it is not far from where I spent a few years of my childhood.

During the past 60 years, Arab states have ethnically cleansed ancient Jewish communities, creating the largest population of refugees in the region—far larger than that of the Palestinians—and incurring property losses many times greater. My grandfather lost his material possessions when he was forced to leave Libya, but at least he could get away and rebuild his life here, unlike the Libyan people who have been oppressed for so long. We hope that their suffering is coming to an end. I commend what the Government have done, and I hope that they will work closely with the new Libyan leadership to help them develop democracy. I look forward to visiting Tripoli when it is more stable and retracing my dear grandfather’s and father’s footsteps.

10:35

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I congratulate the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) on securing this timely debate.

I have limited time. I start with Robin Cook, as did the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham. With respect to him, he misquoted Robin Cook, as people so often do. Robin Cook, for whom I have great admiration, said on Monday 12 May 1997:

“The Labour Government does not accept that political values can be left behind when we check in our passports to travel on diplomatic business. Our foreign policy must have an ethical dimension”.

As the debate has progressed, that matter has become even more relevant to today’s discussion. The debate has been more backward-looking than I expected, but it is helpful to consider some of the points made as we look forward to the future of Libya and progress in that country, which hon. Members from all parties welcome.

I am sorry that there has been a partisan element to this debate, because I know that the speakers, whom I respect, believe in an ethical dimension to foreign policy. They seem, however, to have short memories. Robin Cook established his reputation in the arms to Iraq debate in the 1990s. That debate involved a Conservative Government, and—

[Mr James Gray (in the Chair)]

Order. We are drifting a little wide of the topic. We should focus on UK relations with Libya.

[Ian Lucas]

Well, there has been a great deal of criticism of Labour regarding the ethical dimension of foreign policy, and we must—

[Mr James Gray (in the Chair)]

Order. My ruling is that we return to the question under debate, namely UK relations with Libya. Nothing else is in order.

[Ian Lucas]

I accept your ruling, Mr Gray, although Hansard will record our previous discussion of other matters.

We need a balanced approach when considering the history of different parties’ approach to foreign affairs. From the outset, the Leader of the Opposition made clear his support for the Prime Minister’s decision to support, quite rightly, the actions in Libya. When difficult interventions were happening in Libya, he supported the Prime Minister throughout. Of course, there were times when particular aspects of policy were not succeeding, when the Opposition held the Government to account, as is our role.

There is now a broader consensus across the House on the ethical dimension of foreign policy. It is unhelpful to misrepresent the previous Government’s position—

[Mr James Gray (in the Chair)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman must now return to the question under debate, or he will resume his seat. We are discussing UK relations with Libya, not the ethical foreign policy of the previous Labour Government, or indeed any Government. The question is UK relations with Libya and nothing else.

[Ian Lucas]

I am delighted that last week, the UN voted unanimously to end the no-fly zone, which has now been lifted. The new resolution is another important landmark towards Libya’s democratic future. The state has a historic opportunity to build on human rights and to ensure that freedoms are protected. We in the United Kingdom have a great tradition of working with developing democracies to try to establish democratic values, and I know that the Minister will support that.

Britain’s future involvement in Libya is important. The shadow Foreign Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Mr Alexander), warned in September how a liberated country can quickly become a lawless and violent one. We have seen the end of armed conflict in Libya, and we are now seeing a steady transition to democratic government. The country must now embark on the delicate process of developing institutions. We know from our own history how difficult that is in the aftermath of civil war—Oliver Cromwell was not able to build enduring institutions in the UK. The problems that Libya now faces are serious, so we need to ensure—I think that the hon. Member for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) put this well—that the Libyan people are at the forefront of addressing them. It is important that we support their work in developing institutions.

Will the Minister make clear how he sees our role with Libya developing? Will the emphasis be on bilateral relations with Libya, or will we continue to work through NATO or the UN? What is the current format for the working relationship with the new Libyan Government, and how will that develop?

There is a great appetite in the House for developing relations with Libya. It is a matter for not only the Government, but Parliament as a whole. I am sure that there will be interest throughout Parliament in developing the nascent democracy in Libya. There is great interest in establishing working links, as well as economic links, with Libya. Companies in my constituency already export to Libya and have done so for a number of years, which, to pick up what the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham has said, is something that we need to develop. There is no shame in that. The Defence Secretary was right to say that there are business opportunities in Libya, and I am pleased to hear that Lord Green has already visited Libya and is assisting in the rebuilding of that country in a way that suggests that we can contribute as a nation. We have an opportunity in both the democratic and commercial spheres to assist with the development of Libya.

[Jim Shannon]

After the Kuwait war and the tremendous contribution made by British armed forces to that victory, a number of British companies in Kuwait felt that they would have an economic advantage, but it did not happen. Following other contributors to this debate, does the hon. Gentleman feel that more could be done to ensure that British companies benefit?

[Ian Lucas]

It is important that we grasp the opportunity to contribute commercially, which means creating jobs in our own constituencies. We, as parliamentarians, have a responsibility to be outward-looking on occasions such as this. Perhaps we should not focus purely on issues such as Europe, when big issues are happening around the world. We should look at the opportunities in Africa, China and beyond. It is important that, in these extraordinary times, we use the increasing communication with countries such as Libya for the benefit of our own constituents.

[Bob Stewart]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Ian Lucas]

I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, who has made a number of interesting contributions to this debate.

[Bob Stewart]

The business infrastructure in Libya is excellent, if we consider that it is in Africa. We should waste no opportunity to get in there again. I know that a number of companies are already there and that British companies have been kind of operating throughout the troubles over the past six months. I totally endorse what the hon. Gentleman has to say.

[Ian Lucas]

I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s contribution. There are opportunities in the commercial sphere. A number of organisations have been referred to, such as the British Council and the Westminster Foundation for Democracy, and I add the BBC World Service, which can make a positive contribution to building democracy in Libya. We have a huge opportunity.

I have not visited Libya, but it is extremely important and has massive potential. It is a neighbour of countries that are becoming increasingly important, such as Egypt. Will the Minister touch on how he sees those relationships within the new Mediterranean developing as we progress? We are in extraordinary times in north Africa and the middle east, because the changes are having profound effects on our relations and on the lives of and individual possibilities for the people of Libya.

We have long-established relationships with Libya, for many of the reasons that have been referred to in this debate. We should use those opportunities to assist the people of Libya, who must lead what happens. We must be prepared to stand ready to assist whenever we are asked. We have much to give.

10:45

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr Jeremy Browne)]

Thank you, Mr Gray, for allowing me the opportunity to conclude the debate. It is an honour for me to serve for the first time under your chairmanship and to follow the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas). I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski), not only for giving us the opportunity to discuss this important and topical issue, but for his ongoing interest in Libya. I apologise on behalf of the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), who has specific responsibilities for north Africa and the middle east, and would, in normal circumstances, reply to this debate. He is, however, travelling, so I will respond as his colleague in the Foreign Office.

As has been made clear, events in Libya over recent months and days have offered the opportunity to change radically the United Kingdom’s relationship with Libya, to the benefit of both British and Libyan citizens. The end of the Gaddafi regime, the national transitional council’s declaration of liberation just over a week ago, and the end of the UN-mandated no-fly zone just yesterday mark the beginning of a new era in Libya’s history. After 42 years of brutal repression under Gaddafi, Libyans can now look forward to a brighter, more secure and prosperous future, and a new start in Libya’s relationship with the international community, including us in the United Kingdom.

In responding to the many points that have been made on the nature of the new relationship, I would like to focus on two aspects. The first is the role that the United Kingdom has played to date in helping bring this opportunity about. Secondly—the hon. Member for Wrexham made this point—I want to focus on our plans for future relations, as well as dwell on the recent past.

The Government are proud of the role that Britain has played in establishing and implementing the NATO mission to protect Libyan civilians. The international community, led by the United Kingdom, stepped in because it was necessary, legal and right to do so. We could not stand by and let Gaddafi commit atrocities against his own people in order to cling to power. We are likewise proud of the role that the United Kingdom has played in building international support for the new Libya, not least through the unanimous adoption of UN Security Council resolutions 2009 and 2016 in recent weeks.

Over recent months, at the request of the national transitional council, the United Kingdom has also offered advice on stabilisation and committed more than £20 million of assistance to support the NCT’s stabilisation plans. In April, we opened a mission in Benghazi, and were among the first diplomatic missions to re-establish ourselves in Tripoli after its liberation in August. Together with the French President, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister was the first Head of Government to visit Libya after Tripoli’s fall. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary accompanied him on that visit, and also made a separate visit last month, when he was able to announce the formal reopening of the British embassy and the appointment of Sir John Jenkins as the new British ambassador to Libya.

Although the Government are proud of that role, we have also been clear throughout that it has been a Libyan-led revolution. That is as true of post-conflict stabilisation as it was during the conflict. Now that liberation has been declared, Libya has an historic opportunity to create a peaceful, democratic and prosperous state, where human rights are protected and all its people benefit from its considerable natural resources. As the Foreign Secretary said last week, that would be a fitting tribute to those who sacrificed their lives for future generations. We welcome the clear and consistent messages from council leaders cautioning against disorder and, crucially, against reprisals, as mentioned during our discussions.

Establishing the new Libya will involve building infrastructure in every aspect of life, for example: political democracy and inclusion, the rule of law, security, migration, commerce and civil society. It is for the Libyan people to decide how to govern themselves. The UK will continue to stand shoulder to shoulder with the Libyan people in that process, as they form a transitional Government within 30 days of liberation and rebuild a free and democratic country.

In a moment, I will touch on our plans for helping Libya in how it goes about that process, but, first, I will address an issue that straddles both Libya’s past and future, an important element of our relations with the new Libya and something on which we have been working with the NTC over recent months: the crimes committed by the Gaddafi regime. That has been a particular focus of the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham not only in this debate, but over many months and years. Our relationship with Libya has been scarred over the decades by the horrific actions of the Gaddafi regime, including the killing of WPC Yvonne Fletcher outside the Libyan embassy in London in 1984, the bombing of Pan Am flight 103 over Lockerbie in 1988 and Gaddafi’s support of IRA terrorism in Northern Ireland and here on the UK mainland.

A new Libya offers the chance to revitalise the relationship between Britain and the new Libyan authorities. Part of that process must involve resolving those outstanding so-called legacy issues. As my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary have made clear both to the new Libyan authorities and the House, that is an important priority for our Government. The Foreign Secretary last raised those issues with Chairman al-Jalil of the national transitional council during his visit to Tripoli on 17 October, just a fortnight ago.

The Metropolitan police and Dumfries and Galloway police will return to Libya to conclude their investigations once an interim Government are in place. We will seek restitution and reconciliation for the victims of IRA violence. Chairman al-Jalil and Prime Minister Jibril have assured us on many occasions that they will work with us on those issues but, as they have pointed out—I am sure hon. Members will think that they have done so with valid reason—they need to form a Government and have functioning Ministries to be able to deliver their side of that commitment.

[Ian Lucas]

As was said in the debate, we are all concerned about the circumstances of Colonel Gaddafi’s death. I am aware that the Libyan Government have set an investigation in train. Does the Minister have any indication of when that is likely to be resolved?

[Mr Browne]

The short answer is no. I have not had a clear indication, but I share the hon. Gentleman’s concern. If I can sum up the sentiment of the debate, I think we all feel uncomfortable about the manner of Gaddafi’s death, even if we do not lament his passing. I, and I am sure the whole House, hope that Libya’s future will be based on the rule of law, not reprisals. Although Colonel Gaddafi was the most high-profile Libyan, I hope that his death is not indicative of the state of justice and the construction of society in the new Libya that will unfold in the months and years ahead.

As well as resolving issues from Libya’s past, we will work closely with the new authorities on the issues critical to Libya’s future. Security is a key concern, even though the new authorities are making steady progress and police are returning to the streets. The national transitional council has planned for a proper police force and a national army that integrates many of the revolutionary forces. We are offering help in that process, including through the presence of a British policing adviser and with communications and logistics for the new police forces. We are helping the NTC to secure and disable man-portable air defence systems, and we are supporting mine clearance in Misrata, Benghazi and other affected areas. We will also offer technical advice to help with the destruction of remaining Libyan chemical weapons stocks under the auspices of the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons.

The Government are also working with the International Criminal Court in The Hague to pursue and bring to justice the remaining indictees, Saif al-Islam Gaddafi and Abdullah al-Senussi. We want to ensure that they are held accountable for violations of human rights and international humanitarian law, and for the attacks targeting the civilian population perpetrated by them. We are encouraging all Libya’s neighbours who are ICC state parties and have a legal obligation under the Rome statute to co-operate with the ICC, including on enforcing ICC arrest warrants should those individuals enter their territory. UN Security Council resolution 1970 urges all UN member states to support the ICC investigation and implement the arrest warrants. We are making that position very clear.

The UK has played a leading role throughout in responding to Libya’s humanitarian problems. We have provided support through the International Committee of the Red Cross and supplied surgical teams and medicines to treat up to 5,000 war-wounded patients. We have also brought 50 severely wounded Libyans to the UK and are providing treatment in the UK to another 50 Libyans who have suffered amputations during the conflict. UK medical experts are also working with Libyan medical staff and are training them in the care of those who have been brought to the UK, so that they can take that knowledge back to Libya and work with others who have suffered such terrible injuries in the fighting.

Women and young people have an important role to play in rebuilding Libya. We are engaging with women across different sections of Libyan society to determine how best to provide support. That includes looking at the issues that women face as a result of the conflict and how women can participate in developing a new Libya.

[Bob Stewart]

I shall make only one point. I suspect that the Minister will not mention the matter of Crown Prince Mohammed, but perhaps he could write to me and my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) about what exactly the Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s attitude is towards the Crown Prince, who seems a very decent man.

[Mr Browne]

I am grateful for that intervention. Let me make it clear: the British Government do not have a position on the ideal constitutional arrangement for the new Libya. That is a matter for the Libyan people to determine for themselves. There will be a referendum on the constitution of Libya. On the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham, there will be an opportunity for the Libyan people to express their support for the arrangement that is put before them.

Let me finish by talking about trade and commerce, which was raised by many contributors. Getting the economy running again in Libya is crucial to achieving political progress and stability. We are committed to helping the Libyan authorities build a strong and sustainable economy. Through UK Trade and Investment and our embassy in Tripoli, we are providing advice and assistance to British businesses, so that they are ready to compete for business opportunities now and in future, when the time is right for their business.

In late September, Lord Green, the Minister responsible for trade and investment visited Libya. He met senior leaders, who assured him that all legally obtained contracts would be honoured and new business welcomed. He discussed business prospects arising from the estimated $200 billion post-conflict reconstruction programme and, the day after his visit, Lord Green briefed more than 150 UK companies on how the Government planned to support their engagement in Libya. The Export Credits Guarantee Department has agreed to provide insurance cover for business deals up to a total of $250 million. That is an initial tranche of cover and it will be re-evaluated at regular intervals.

The Libyan people have now embarked on the transition to a pluralist and democratic society. Although we should not expect that that will always be a smooth path, the UK will continue to support Libya in that goal and in building a revitalised relationship between the United Kingdom and Libya that addresses past wrongs and lays the foundation for future progress. The NTC’s goals are ambitious, but already it has many times proved wrong those who underestimated it. We have confidence that it can continue to do so, and that a new bilateral relationship between Britain and Libya will bring greater benefits to the people of both our countries in future than at any point over the past four decades.

Regional Growth Fund

Tuesday 1st November 2011 Westminster Hall

11:00

[Mr James Gray (in the Chair)]

We now come to a debate on UK relations with Libya. I beg your pardon; we do not. That was an extremely good debate on the UK’s relations with Libya, which I enjoyed very much. We now come to a debate on the effectiveness of the regional growth fund.

[Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

I am mightily relieved that the topic is not Libya, Mr Gray, because my notes do not refer to it in the least. I am pleased to have secured this debate on the regional growth fund. I want to start by putting the fund in the context of the economy as a whole. There is no doubt that the British economy is in trouble. We have a growth crisis. Year-on-year growth has all but vanished, with this morning’s Office for National Statistics growth forecast for quarter 3 at 0.5%, and with construction already in negative territory. Unemployment is at levels not seen since Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister, and is rising at an alarming rate. Worse still, the young are paying the heaviest price, with youth unemployment at almost 1 million.

Worryingly, unemployment is rising at a much faster rate in the regions than in London or the south-east, as Government cuts bite more heavily into the regions. Already, the unemployment rate in Yorkshire and the Humber is almost twice that in the south-east, according to ONS figures. Inflation is running at more than twice the Bank of England’s target rate of 2.5%, while average incomes are rising at half that rate. That means, as the Governor of the Bank of England said recently, that families are experiencing the biggest squeeze on their incomes in living memory.

The Minister, in his response to the debate, will undoubtedly claim that our growth problem is due to the eurozone crisis. No. The blame must lie at the doors of No. 11 and No. 10 Downing street. Our economic growth has faltered thanks to a reckless slashing of investment by this out-of-touch Government. Yes, in 2008 the global economy did go through the worst financial crisis, and subsequently the deepest recession, since the 1930s, and yes, the British economy was badly affected by the irresponsibility of banks over-lending, but since the Government came to power, the UK economy has stagnated, as I have pointed out. Since last autumn, only earthquake-hit Japan has grown more slowly than the UK in the G7. There is no doubt that the Government’s policies are hurting, but they are certainly not working. Today, I want to spell out that it is not just that the Government are not doing enough to help our economy grow; what they are doing, they are doing badly.

The previous Government’s key tools for regional economic development were the nine regional development agencies covering the country. Those tools for investment enjoyed significant Government support both politically and financially, with a budget of approximately £2 billion a year. I think that in the last year of the Labour Government, the budget was £1.7 billion. The Conservatives made no secret of their desire to abolish the RDAs if they won the general election—they did not win it, but they are in power thanks to the Liberal Democrats—but they were very light on what they thought should replace them.

[Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)]

The hon. Lady seems to be extolling the virtues of regional development agencies. Would she not acknowledge that in the west midlands private sector employment actually fell under the RDAs?

[Angela Smith]

This debate is not about the RDAs. The point that I will make, as the hon. Gentleman will see, relates to the level of investment made by RDAs, as compared to the regional growth fund. We now know what the Government’s alternative is—the regional growth fund. On the evidence to date, the fund represents chaos and confusion, with too little being awarded too late to make any significant contribution to promoting economic growth.

There are three aspects to the Government’s approach to regional investment. The first is local enterprise partnerships, which are unfunded apart from a small start-up fund, and have no clout. The second is enterprise zones, which are a tired blast from the past with a mixed track record when it comes to delivering jobs and growth. The third prong of the Government’s regional growth strategy is, of course, the regional growth fund, and yesterday the outcome of the second round of bids was announced.

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

There are many other prongs, but the fourth prong that I would have mentioned is the enhanced role of local authorities—their powers of competence, and their capacity to deliver planning decisions that will build businesses.

[Angela Smith]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, but it has already been established this morning that the Humber is actually going backwards because of the cuts to local authorities, so I do not think that that is quite true.

We were told yesterday, in a written parliamentary statement, that 119 bids had been awarded funding. That is just a quarter of the bids submitted. Clearly, there were far more losers than winners, with more than 370 bids rejected. Bids totalling more than £6 billion have been submitted in rounds 1 and 2 of the RGF. That says something about the scale of the unmet investment needs of business, and how little the Government are delivering to meet that need.

The RGF was announced on 29 June 2010, alongside the proposals for the LEPs. A Department for Business, Innovation and Skills press release described the RGF’s purpose as being

“to help areas and communities at risk of being particularly affected by public spending cuts”.

However, current guidance from the Department goes into a little more detail:

“The objective is to stimulate private sector investment by providing support for projects that offer significant potential for long term economic growth and the creation of additional sustainable private sector jobs.”

When announced, the original fund was £1 billion, but the 2010 spending review extended the total value to £1.4 billion over three years—from 2011 to 2014. To put those figures in perspective, as I mentioned earlier, the annual budget for the RDAs averaged £1.7 billion in their last few years of operation. The Government’s total spending on the RGF over a three-year period will be just £1.4 billion. One does not have to be Einstein to see that the RGF represents a two-thirds cut in regional investment, which is an indication of where the Government’s priorities lie and that they are certainly not supporting the regions. The Government use a lot of warm words, but deliver very little when it comes to economic investment. There is a really good northern phrase to describe a person who appears to have everything, but who in fact has nothing much to offer: “all fur coat and no knickers”. I have to say that that seems a rather good description of the Government’s approach to regional growth.

It will take more than warm words to persuade businesses up and down the country that the Government have what it takes to kick-start growth in the economy, which has flatlined since last autumn. It is obvious that there is much demand out there for regional investment; rounds 1 and 2 of the fund were over-subscribed many times over. In the first round of bidding, 478 bids were received, with a value of £2.78 billion. Only 50 bids were successful, and only five have received any money so far—hardly the success to which the Government lay claim. Given that so few bids from the first round have progressed to the point where they have fund money in the bank, how on earth can we expect the Government to deal effectively with the 119 announced yesterday?

On top of that, it is absolutely clear that the Government’s approach to regional investment is far too centralised. In an era of so-called localism, how can the Deputy Prime Minister, Lord Heseltine or the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills justify a bidding process that is governed and determined by Whitehall, particularly given that the investment framework that it replaced was regionally based and closely attuned to the strategic needs of the regions?

[Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con)]

I am very lucky, because east Kent received regional growth fund money yesterday. The structure of each of the funds is very different, depending on the local circumstances. Our regional growth fund is transferring to small businesses, and will be transferred to an organisation that will be totally locally focused, and accountable to the local businesses and the employment that we need to create. It is a tailored scheme that reflects the needs of each individual region and its specific employment profile.

[Angela Smith]

The fact that the decisions are made by Whitehall is not altered by anything that the hon. Lady has said. One member of the panel that assesses bids for the growth fund, Mr Moulton, is himself benefiting from the fund to the tune of £5.9 million, which is paid to a company called Redx Pharma, in which he is an investor with a stake of about 26%. Would the hon. Lady like to say anything about the fact that there is not much clarity or transparency in that process? That was not the case with the previous arrangements for distributing regeneration money.

[Laura Sandys]

Our fund in east Kent will be extremely transparent to the business community; it will be accountable to business by delivering jobs on the ground. It will not be something distant, based in Whitehall. In the south-east, the operation used to be based in Guildford; there was not very much on the ground in Margate and Ramsgate.

[Angela Smith]

A Government who trusted the voice of the northern regions, and their intimate knowledge of their manufacturing base, would never have cancelled the Forgemasters loan. [Interruption.] If the hon. Lady thinks that is funny, people in Sheffield and south Yorkshire do not. Yesterday we heard an acknowledgement that the Government got it wrong on Forgemasters, and they have awarded a consolation prize, but nothing takes away from the fact that the original purpose of the loan has passed, and an important strategic opportunity has passed us by, thanks to the spiteful attitude of a condemned Government hellbent on cancelling what they saw as a Labour loan.

[Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on this timely debate, and on her work on Forgemasters last year. Is it not a serious issue that although a previous Government—including the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Treasury—did up to two and a half years of due diligence on the proposed loan to Forgemasters, in the past two and a half months, no such due diligence has been done? Despite the warm welcome for the money announced yesterday for Forgemasters, the board has not even approved the detail of how the investment is to be made. Last year, the Deputy Prime Minister wrongly described the original decision as political, but we now have a most vivid example of such a decision, with the Deputy Prime Minister arriving at Forgemasters, seeking to make a political gesture out of public money.

[Angela Smith]

I completely agree with my right hon. Friend. The Deputy Prime Minister would have been better served yesterday had he acknowledged to the people of Sheffield that he got it wrong and they got it right. If he had shown some humility and apologised for the grave errors that his Government made more than a year ago, perhaps the political point that he was making would have carried a lot further.

One of the issues at the heart of the chaos and confusion surrounding the regional growth fund is the bureaucracy at the heart of the process. For instance, the rules for the fund state that payments will only be forthcoming on successful delivery of outputs. That means that private companies are being asked to invest up front, with the risk that, if they do not make the said outputs in two or three years, they will not receive the moneys promised. That means that the promise to Forgemasters is exactly that: only a promise. That, I am told, is not only putting off many smaller companies from applying, but is making the writing-up of contracts difficult for the successful companies due to the risks involved. In that context, the comments made to me yesterday by the Institute of Chartered Accountants are damning. The institute has been working with BIS officials to make the process simpler and more cost-effective, but it says:

“However, following discussions with our members, BIS officials and firms, we fear that a convoluted approach to the due diligence process for the RGF is resulting in delay, additional bureaucracy and cost for businesses and the government, and undermining the growth goals that the RGF money intends to achieve.”

Those are not my words, but those of the Institute of Chartered Accountants—a damning indictment of the Government’s approach to regional investment.

To make matters worse, the minimum bid for an application to the fund is £l million, with typical leverages of eight to nine being demanded. That means that the fund is out of reach to the average small or medium-sized enterprise—the sectors that the Government say they want to help the most. The Federation of Small Businesses said to me yesterday:

“From our point of view, the minimum amount for bids of £l million has always been far too large for the majority of small businesses. We did encourage collective bids to be made on behalf of SMEs, however this is not ideal.”

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

I praise my hon. Friend for her fantastic campaign on Sheffield Forgemasters, which has resulted in at least a partial climbdown. I gather from what she is saying that we now have a system in place that not only has a lot less money, but is more bureaucratic and more difficult for firms to access. She is right that that is causing a lot of consternation in the business world and among private firms, not least in the manufacturing industry.

[Angela Smith]

My hon. Friend is right. The growth figures today show that we are heading for a gross domestic product growth increase of 0.5% over the past year, which is a significant slow-down from the 2.6% registered in the last year of the Labour Government. It is appalling that the Government do not seem able to resolve issues to do with releasing investment to manufacturing and businesses up and down the country, and do not seem able to ensure that the funding flows quickly to the companies that need it in order to secure our economic future.

[Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)]

I thank the hon. Lady—my neighbour in West Yorkshire—for giving way, but I found your partisan language, your doom-mongering and your negativity quite shocking, which is a shame.

[Mr James Gray (in the Chair)]

Order. I will have no part of doom-mongering and such language.

[Jason McCartney]

One minute, the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) is happy that Forgemasters is getting a loan, and the next she is unhappy—she seems unhappy with both. May I confirm that she welcomes the regional growth fund as a scheme, but for the tinkering with the details and the learning as we go on with different bids? Does she join Government Members in welcoming the scheme and the way in which it invests in businesses, as it did in David Brown’s in my constituency?

[Mr James Gray (in the Chair)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman must be brief.

[Jason McCartney]

That was a £2 million investment, which will secure 80 new jobs.

[Angela Smith]

I would welcome recognition by the Government that we need far more than what is on offer on the table. We need proper decentralisation of the decision-making processes, more transparency, and a more efficient way of delivering funds to companies. The chances of such funds delivering significant economic growth are about as good as the chances of Huddersfield football club getting a promotion to the championship next year.

[Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend is making a valid case. Opposition Members do welcome the regional growth fund, but I will welcome it even more when it actually arrives, as so far only eight businesses have received any funds. Our concerns are reiterated by the EEF, the manufacturers’ association, which is cited in The Northern Echo today. It wants to ensure that

“the funding promised flows through directly to the projects concerned as a matter of urgency.”

Is the current speed at which cash is going to businesses urgent or slow?

[Angela Smith]

My hon. Friend is right. It is not only slow; there is inertia at the heart of the Government’s approach to investment in our economy. That is all down to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who said this morning, when asked by the BBC, that this is a difficult journey for the UK economy, but that we are determined to complete it, so that we have jobs and growth—only warm words, once again. He will not admit that he has got it wrong, or that he needs a plan B, and that is at the heart of the problem we are facing.

[Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)]

The hon. Lady said that small and medium-sized enterprises will not benefit. Does she not agree that the supply chain benefits are enormous? Let me cite the successful bid of Pochin’s of Middlewich in my constituency for £4.1 million, announced yesterday. That will result in the creation of 3,600 new jobs, ultimately, and safeguard a further 200 in the region. Many of those jobs will be in SMEs.

[Angela Smith]

I am sure that hon. Members have come here today to congratulate the companies that were promised money in yesterday’s announcement. Any investment is welcome, but I remind the hon. Lady that the Government cancelled a significant investment in the nuclear industry supply chain 18 months ago. That is what the Forgemasters loan was about, and that is why the Government are seriously damaging the economy. We are talking about a major supply chain that would have ensured that the UK and its manufacturing base were at the forefront of the building of the next generation of nuclear power stations.

How businesses access the fund is a problem, as the Minister admitted in an article in The Times:

“There have also been problems where, given the financial uncertainty from June onwards, it has proven very slow to unlock that private capital.”

So where are we with the Government’s regional growth strategy? It is quite obvious that the Government’s thinking is muddled to say the least. They have dismantled the Labour Government’s regeneration framework and replaced it with a rickety framework, fed with inadequate resources spread very thinly. Worse still, this comes at a time when help is most required by many of the regions because of the Government’s desire to cut too far and too fast.

So what should we be doing to jump-start growth? Labour’s plan to repeat the bank bonus tax, and to use the funds to build 25,000 desperately needed homes and secure jobs for 100,000 young people, would help, as would bringing forward long-term infrastructure projects. We got a start on this yesterday, but we need more. For the medium term, I agree with the Leader of the Opposition when he says that we need to change the very nature of our economy. We need to go back to making things, to give manufacturing a much bigger role in our economy, and we need an economy that looks at the long-term, and not just to short-term profits.

[Mr Marcus Jones]

I thank the hon. Lady for giving way; she is being generous in taking interventions. She tells us how important manufacturing is to rebalance our economy, yet in 13 years of Labour Government, on her party’s watch, we lost 1.7 million manufacturing jobs.

[Angela Smith]

I think the hon. Gentleman overlooks the fact that the Labour Government were prepared to show what is called industrial activism. They worked hard for a long period to ensure that due diligence was in place, and that we invested in key sectors of our manufacturing economy. The hon. Gentleman’s comment is a bit rich, given that the production industries have gone into negative growth in the last quarter. Mining and quarrying took the productive part of the economy into negative growth in the last quarter, so I do not think that we need any comments from Government Members on manufacturing and support for manufacturing.

[Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab)]

I do not know whether my hon. Friend is aware of this, but the regional growth fund for north-east England will create some 8,500 jobs over three years. That is equivalent to the number of jobs lost in the north-east in the past three months.

[Angela Smith]

That is precisely the point. That underlines the fact that the Government are cutting too far and too fast. Their policies risk producing a double-dip recession.

[Tom Blenkinsop]

Another interesting statistic came out today: the purchasing managers index for manufacturing output slumped to 47.4%, below the 50% figure, which is an early indicator of a downturn in manufacturing. That is a scary statistic for us all to take on board.

[Angela Smith]

I completely agree with my hon. Friend. I repeat that we need an economy that looks at the long term, and not just short-term profits. We need to invest in innovation. We need a co-ordinated, well-funded regional growth strategy, not the disparate, unco-ordinated approach that represents too little, too late, from a Government who have fallen asleep at the wheel and lost their way as far as economic growth is concerned.

11:19

[David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) on securing the debate. I have listened to her complaints about Government strategy, but I will not dwell on those, because I am sure that the Minister, who was making notes, will have a few things to say about that.

I want to address the issue of the regional growth fund and explain why it has been fundamentally important to my Leicestershire constituency, which sits on the boundary of the east and the west midlands. The Government’s decision yesterday to grant regional growth fund second round support to the MIRA technology park will make a huge difference not just in my constituency—my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) nods his head—but right across the midlands, because it will impact on some of the areas with the greatest problems.

The new MIRA technology park, which desperately needed regional growth fund status, was approved by Her Majesty’s Government in August. This new technology park will attract up to £300 million—perhaps more—in private investment. It is also likely to create and be responsible for up to 5,000 sustainable jobs. We can argue about the numbers—it depends on the catchment area—but it is a massive boost to industry in the heart of England. I represent the heart of England where the Fosse way crosses Watling street. We expect 200 jobs to be in place by 2013, largely based in a 43,000 square metre state-of-the art engineering centre, and a 155,000 square metre research and development facility, which will incorporate a new technology park.

[Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab)]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman about the importance of MIRA. I congratulate it on being successful, with the promise of RGF money, as indeed Jaguar Land Rover was a little while ago. However, does he agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith), who said in opening the debate that the promise of money is not much use unless it is actually delivered in practice? The Government need to think about how they can deliver RGF money rather than just make promises.

[David Tredinnick]

I understand that the hon. Gentleman speaks on behalf of his motor manufacturing constituency. Obviously, there is demand for more regional growth fund support. Where we are now with the RGF is very helpful, and it is successful for reasons that I will develop.

[Mr Marcus Jones]

I am proud to have worked with my hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth (David Tredinnick) in promoting the MIRA enterprise zone and RGF bids. Does he agree that it shows the importance of cross-boundary working, with his constituency in the east midlands and my constituency just over the width of the A5 in the west midlands? The fact that the local enterprise partnership for Coventry and Warwickshire has strongly backed the MIRA development shows how the new system is starting to work and bear fruit.

[David Tredinnick]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend, who has worked tirelessly for this project. I sat with him in his council chamber—in his former chair, I think—in Nuneaton not long ago and considered these issues. We can talk about the boundaries—parish, borough, county and regional—in the areas that we represent, but the point is that the footprint of the MIRA park is enormous. It covers a very large area of the east and the west midlands—areas that desperately need help.

I will return to the subject of the debate, Mr Gray, before you call me to order. I would not want to fall foul of the Chair. There were many concerns earlier this year when MIRA did not succeed in round one of the RGF because the technology park really could not succeed without that support. We are talking about not an add-on, or bells and whistles on a machine, but part of the gearbox without which the project could not go ahead. There has been huge investment on this former bomber aerodrome site.

[Mr Jones]

I assure my hon. Friend that I will not take much more of his valuable time, but does he agree that in addition to the growth and jobs that the MIRA development will create, RGF funding will also change the physical complexion of the A5? It will therefore benefit not only the MIRA development, but the east and the west midlands, which rely heavily on the A5 corridor.

[David Tredinnick]

My hon. Friend is right. I do not want to detain the House for long as many colleagues wish to speak, but I shall refer him to correspondence that I have received from worried constituents and former councillors on transport issues such as not improving the roads, traffic flows that, when measured seem to be too great for the existing roads, and problems on the A444/A5 Red Gate junction, which he will know well. There are also other local issues such as Higham lane roundabout—all concerns about the national highway. With the second round of applications to the regional growth fund, we will solve those problems and all those roundabouts and junctions will be improved. Indeed, the roads must be improved because otherwise heavy vehicles cannot get in safely. As MIRA said, subsequent to the RGF2 bid submission, those improvements will go ahead.

MIRA technology park will receive £20 million from the regional growth fund. I spoke to MIRA’s chief executive yesterday and looked at other aspects of the scheme, and I understand from the Minister’s Department that one or two issues concerning the impact on traffic and traffic changes need to be resolved. I thought that the Department had already dealt with such matters, but I have received reassurances that such problems will not obstruct the bid. I hope that the Minister will address that concern in his response.

The huge knock-on effect of the bid will not be confined to businesses but will have a massive impact on education and apprenticeships. Another leap forward that the Government have made is to improve, invigorate and release more people into the apprenticeship structure. Astonishingly, the Labour Government never really cracked that issue over 13 years. They were always out of kilter; there were never enough plumbers or enough this or that. It was a command economy approach that did not work. We are now freeing up the economy and giving people more responsibility. [Interruption.] I love heckling, Mr Gray, and if we had the time, I could not get enough of it. Seriously, however, we are talking about important issues.

Last night representatives from further education colleges visited the House, including Marion Plant from North Warwickshire and Hinckley college. We talked about the importance of developments such as the new Hinckley campus and the studio school that will come on stream in September 2012 with design apprenticeship training, and courses in advanced engineering and health and social care. She told me that there had been 500 applications for nine places. The demand exists, and we are heading in the right direction.

Last Friday I was contacted by Radio Leicester which asked me to do an interview about the increase in the number of apprenticeships in my constituency. I have received one or two other requests in the past, and I accepted that one immediately. There has been a phenomenal increase in apprenticeships in my constituency, which embraces Hinckley and lies adjacent to Nuneaton.

In summary, for all the complaints made by the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge—and I am sure there will be many other complaints from Opposition Members—something is stirring in the heart of England. Under this Government, there are more apprenticeships, and we are allowing institutions such as North Warwickshire and Hinckley college more say about how they run their affairs. There is less top-down government. I have just come from the Health Committee. We will not go into that issue now, but the Government are trying to give more power to doctors, which I welcome. The Government are succeeding in what they are doing, and the regional growth fund is an important part of that. I congratulate the Minister and his colleagues.

11:35

[Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Mr Gray, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) on securing this debate.

I will be brief because other Members wish to speak and we obviously want to hear contributions from the Front-Bench spokesmen. First, I would like to congratulate those firms in my constituency that have received money from the regional growth fund—Kromek Ltd, Permoid Industries Ltd, Carlton & Co., Hydram Engineering Ltd and ThyssenKrupp Tallent Ltd. Those highly-skilled organisations will produce jobs in the future. As I pointed out, however, although the regional growth fund will create around 8,500 jobs in the north-east of England, that is about the same as the number of jobs that have been lost in the north-east over the past three months.

[James Wharton (Stockton South) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman is right to mention estimates that suggest that the current round of regional growth fund funding for the north-east will create 8,500 direct jobs. In addition, however, there will be 17,000 indirect jobs. The previous round of funding, in which our region did exceptionally well, is estimated to have created a further 5,200 direct jobs, and 8,400 indirect jobs. The figures are higher than one might believe if we listened only to the comments made by Opposition Members.

[Phil Wilson]

Those jobs will come on stream over the next few years. North-east England now has the highest unemployment in the country, and we are grateful for everything that we receive from the regional growth fund. We should not forget, however, that the fund for regional development is only one third of what it was under the previous Government. The problem with the regional growth fund is that it does not provide a strategy for the regions. A company applies for a grant, and if they get it that is fine, but if they do not, they do not. The fund is led not from the regions but from Whitehall; it should be renamed the Whitehall growth fund.

I have one or two questions for the Minister to which I hope he will reply. They concern the delay experienced by companies in receiving the money for which they applied in the first round—hopefully, they will not have the same problems this time round. The issue seems to concern the need for due diligence. Under the previous Administration, except in complex cases, the regional development agencies would be responsible for due diligence and absorb the cost. I have asked the Library to look into the matter, but as I understand it, under the present regime, due diligence has to be secured and paid for by the applicant out of the grant. Is that a reason for the delay in companies receiving their funding? Why are we asking applicants to find someone to look into issues of due diligence, and why does money for that come out of the grant? Under the old system, that was not the case.

In conclusion, one of my concerns as a north-east MP is that although the Scottish Development Agency exists north of the border, there is no similar body in the north-east. People say that regional development agencies are a waste of money and so on, but I would defend One North East, which has been very good. If something ain’t broke, don’t fix it—it was a major mistake of the Government to abolish that RDA in the north-east, especially when one exists north of the border. In the south of England, the number of companies in distress or facing bankruptcy are in decline, while in the north-east, they have increased by 20%. There are concerns in the north about the strategy. The second round of applications to the regional growth fund has finished. What will happen between now and the next election as far as regional development and regional grants are concerned? It seems that there is no strategy on that. I am especially concerned about the issue of due diligence because that may explain why delays are occurring, and I hope that the Minister will respond on that issue.

11:39

[Esther McVey (Wirral West) (Con)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) on bringing this timely debate to Westminster Hall. However, having listened to what has gone on, I think that we need to put the debate in context, so here goes. We have to look at the time when the coalition Government took office. We had the biggest deficit ever in peacetime history. We were paying £120 million in interest per day. Labour did too little, too late, and left us with a busted flush. The UK economy has grown by 0.5% in the third quarter of 2011, according to the Office for National Statistics.

[Tom Blenkinsop]

If, as the hon. Lady says, the economy was in such a bad situation when the coalition Government came to power, why did the Chancellor of the Exchequer predicate the deficit reduction plan on 3% growth? To date in 2011, we have growth of less than 1%, which has led to extra borrowing of £46 billion plus.

[Esther McVey]

No, the hon. Gentleman will find that his party left the economy in so bad a situation that we not only had to say, “You will live within your means and spend what you have,” but we had to provide a growth structure so that we could rebalance the economy.

[Phil Wilson]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Esther McVey]

Not yet. Let me proceed to put the debate in context. Hon. Members talked about the regional development agencies. I will talk favourably about the Northwest Development Agency because the staff there are superb. I have worked with many of them and have a lot of time for them. However, let me give the statistics. From 1990 to 1999, annual growth was 1.7% in the north-west and 2.3% in the south-east—a gap of 0.6%. Between 2000 and 2008, average growth was 1.5% in the north-west and 2.1% in the south-east. We kept that gap of 0.6%, despite spending £3.7 billion over a decade.

[Tom Blenkinsop]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Esther McVey]

No, I will not. Therefore, we now have to ask how we will spend money better, how we will live within our means and how we will rebalance the economy. I talk as someone who had her own business for the last 14 years. I have set businesses up and sold them. I also set up the biggest business network for women in the north-west, involving more than 9,000 business ladies. I therefore like to see myself not only as a business woman, but as a pragmatist who knows that we can spend only what we have. That is what the coalition Government were facing.

I hope that I have set the debate in context. The regional growth fund was set up to create a fairer and more balanced economy, in which we are not so dependent on a narrow range of economic sectors and in which new business and economic opportunities are evenly shared across the regions and across industries. That is what we set out to achieve.

[Angela Smith]

The regional development agency Yorkshire Forward played an instrumental role in developing the UK’s first technology and innovation centre. We did not call it that. It is the advanced manufacturing research centre in Sheffield. That is now being lauded as the perfect example of where this country needs to go on investment in new technologies and design. Will the hon. Lady at least acknowledge that the RDAs had a very good and effective role in pulling together strategic investments and strategic design and innovation?

[Esther McVey]

I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention. As I said, I did not deal with Yorkshire Forward; I worked with the Northwest Development Agency and I congratulate the staff, who were excellent. I am saying that, despite spending £3.7 billion, what was meant to be done—rebalancing the economy—never happened. We are therefore asking how we can best deliver the money, how we can focus it and how we can ensure that it achieves its purpose.

[Fiona Bruce]

I, too, worked with the regional development agency in the north-west. What is particularly striking about the regional growth fund is that applications are succeeding from areas that, under the previous Government, were largely ignored when it came to business support. For years, business people in my constituency of Congleton have commented on the fact that although neighbouring areas—Staffordshire, for example—could obtain support, Cheshire was almost a desert. Now, we are seeing a difference. The Government are saying that there are areas across the country that need business support; and wherever they are, they are receiving it.

[Esther McVey]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention.

The purpose of the regional growth fund was to stimulate growth, secure jobs and increase the number of jobs. There was a consultation with the public: what did they think it would be best for the regional growth fund to do? The replies came back that they wanted flexibility and no duplication of funds. It was thought best that at least for stage 1—things will change over the next couple of years—there should be minimum bid thresholds of £1 million. It was also felt that guidance should be published. The first round allocated £2.7 billion, creating and safeguarding jobs. It created 27,000 jobs and a further 100,000 jobs in associated supply chains.

I want to talk specifically about Merseyside. In round 1, Pilkington’s in St Helens, Ames Goldsmith UK, Echo and Stobart were successful. I got in touch with Richard Butcher, Stobart Group deputy chief executive, to ask him about the regional growth fund. He says that the regional growth fund has been

“an important factor in Stobart Group’s commitment to the Halton region and will ensure the continued investment from us that the area needs to maintain economic regeneration and growth. The investment from Stobart, Prologis and Halton Borough Council has transformed the area and created many important new jobs—the support from the Regional Growth Fund will further enhance that regeneration.”

Stobart Group has already invested £100 million to date in the development of its Mersey multi-modal gateway logistics site in Widnes, but this new private-public partnership saw the regional growth fund as an ideal opportunity to push on with the development of a further 100 acres, eventually creating more than 5,000 additional jobs and £170 million in gross value added. With the £9 million received in round 1, it is moving forward on opening up 1 million square feet of warehousing space served by rail and road.

That is a perfect example of how the RGF can bring public and private bodies together to stimulate investment and boost the economy. Stobart illustrates the private partnership success and collaboration that has emerged from the RGF. It successfully forged a business partnership between itself, a road haulage operator, infrastructure developers Prologis and Halton borough council. As we know, the sum is always bigger than its parts. That example proves the case most effectively.

I want to refer to other significant developments. The regional growth fund was set up to make key links between private-private partnerships and private-public partnerships, and we are seeing that, but this is the start of a brand-new way of thinking. It is a way of focusing money that we have not seen before, and we will learn as we go along, so instead of the negativity that we have heard today—

[Phil Wilson]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Esther McVey]

No, not just yet; I will in a second. When we talk in Westminster Hall about the confidence that business needs—we all know that that cannot really be defined but is necessary—it helps for all parties to give confidence to business.

[Mr Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con)]

My hon. Friend has touched on the importance of business confidence. I am sure that as a fellow north-west MP, she will be pleased to hear that Bentley Motors in my constituency, which has already invested £1 billion in its Crewe plant, has secured money not only in the first round but in the second round of the regional growth fund—a further £3 million to boost its research and development. The company has said that that will not only secure the current jobs, but create more jobs in the local area. For the south Cheshire area and Crewe in particular, that is vital to ensuring that business confidence remains and that businesses can continue to invest in future.

[Esther McVey]

That is indeed vital. When we talk in the House and our words are taken down in Hansard and when people look at it on the internet, people must not just hear doom and gloom, because in reality many positive things are happening and they are coming from private industry.

[Richard Burden]

rose—

[Phil Wilson]

rose—

[Esther McVey]

I will give way first to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard Burden).

[Richard Burden]

The hon. Lady has said that she hopes that the Government will learn as they go along about how to deliver the RGF more effectively. Why does she believe that there have been delays? I am sure that businesses in her area are complaining about that quite a lot. There have been many delays in delivering money already promised. Why does she think that is?

[Esther McVey]

Let me correct that. I do not think that the RGF will be delivered more effectively, but that it will change along the way, as small and medium-sized enterprises link together and put in bids for £1 million. Everybody knows—I was slightly startled by some Members’ comments about this—that due diligence must be done and that money must be targeted at the right people. That is what people in business do—full stop. These things take some time.

[Phil Wilson]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Esther McVey]

I will carry on, because I have nearly finished.

Thirty-four companies and other organisations across the north-west made successful bids in round 2. My hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mr Timpson) mentioned Bentley, but there is also the university of Liverpool, Pirelli Tyres Ltd, Northwest Aerospace Alliance, Sefton council and Liverpool Vision—the list goes on and on. There are 34 companies and other organisations in total, and they have benefited from some of this £3.3 billion, which is safeguarding jobs, as well as creating 37,000 new jobs, with a further 164,000 jobs in related supply chains and local economies.

Specifically on Merseyside, there is GETRAG FORD Transmissions in Knowsley, which has won support to expand capacity for the production of transmissions at the Halewood plant. Another development I would raise with the Minister is groups of SMEs bidding for £1 million. Last week, I brought a group from the Wirral Invest Network to Westminster to speak to him about how that could best be done. So, yes, the regional growth fund has done a tremendous job so far, against all the odds, but I would like it to be stepped up to help SMEs.

11:51

[Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab)]

The points I wish to make relate very much to the process surrounding how the regional growth fund works. The hon. Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey) talked about the need to spend money better, but the regional growth fund is spending it badly. All the evidence suggests that improvements can be made, particularly to the process. It cannot be right that only five or six firms out of 45 successful bidders have received money from the first round.

At last week’s Business, Innovation and Skills questions, the Secretary of State said that such an outcome was acceptable and that it was all part of the process, but the truth is that it is not acceptable. The lifeblood of any business is cash flow, and slowness in making awards will jeopardise the economic growth that the fund is trying to achieve. There are therefore real concerns about how the process is working and about its slowness. At the rate we are going, not all the awards will have been made to the businesses concerned by the end of this Parliament.

It cannot be right that the Department has issued nearly 30 press releases about the regional growth fund but has managed to allocate only five or six awards since the fund was set up. It also cannot be right that successful businesses have to hire consultancy firms to carry out the due diligence that is expected, as my hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson) said. Under the previous structure of regional development agencies, that due diligence would already have been done, which would have resulted in a much quicker process.

There are questions about transparency. We are unsure how decisions are made about successful and unsuccessful bids. It has been pointed out to me that LEPs, which were the creation of this Government, are not being fully involved in the decision-making process. For example, the LEP covering Sheffield was not aware that Sheffield Forgemasters was to receive the funding that it did. As has been said, there are also reports in today’s newspapers that one of the business men who sits on the fund’s advisory panel owns shares in one of the businesses that will benefit from the second round.

My final point relates to the £1.4 billion being made available over three years, which is just a third of what the previous Government put into regional development.

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, and there are two issues. First, we have had a great deal of discussion about how money should be going into business in the north-east and the north-west, but the south-west is also important. Secondly, the country is incredibly short of money, and we should surely be using this money for catalyst work and to build our skills base.

[Simon Danczuk]

I would not disagree, but my point is that the regional growth fund is not working effectively, although it might look attractive. We may have a limited amount of money, but it needs to be spent well, wisely and effectively. The measure of the regional growth fund, particularly given the amount being made available, was whether it would create private sector jobs to replace the jobs lost in the public sector. All the indications are that that is not occurring; indeed, we know that for a fact because unemployment—particularly youth unemployment—is going up. As a mechanism and policy, therefore, the regional growth fund is failing.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Simon Danczuk]

I am going to conclude.

In conclusion, awards are being made too slowly, there is too much bureaucracy, there is a lack of transparency and the amount available is inadequate.

11:55

[Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con)]

It is nice to follow the hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk). The regional growth fund must have got something right if there are majority of northern MPs here because the majority of the money has gone to the north, and that, in a sense, is where I want to start. First, however, I congratulate the hon. Member for Sheffield Stockbridge and Penistone (Angela Smith) on getting this debate and on the fight she has put up for her area.

I want to talk about the background of the north-south divide, which Opposition Members seem to forget. The division between the north and the south has been recognised by the Government and by Government Members from the north, but it is not clear whether the previous Government recognised it. In December 1999, former Prime Minister Tony Blair said the north-south divide was as myth and

“an over-simplistic explanation of the problems that regional economies face”.

One wonders where the problems did begin. To be fair, he told The Journal in Newcastle four months later that

“the North South divide exists, and I never said it doesn’t.”

Labour then set up regional development agencies in every region. Even at the time, some Labour Members criticised the fact that London had a regional development agency. At this point, I should declare an interest, having been a member of that RDA. I should tell the hon. Member for Stockbridge and Penistone that I never saw a great deal of transparency in the way that agency dealt with things, but perhaps that was because I was its minority Tory member.

I thought the point of RDAs was to deal with the north-south divide. However, my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey) has spoken about the relative decline of the north over the past 13 years. I want to give some figures to illustrate that. The latest figures I have for gross value added in the north—for what the north added to the national wealth—show that between 1995 and 2008, which is before the coalition Government took office, and with 100 being the average, the north-east saw a decline from 82.9 to 78.2, the north-west saw a decline from 90.2 to 86.4 and Yorkshire and the Humber saw a decline from 89 to 82.9.

If we go beneath that to the sub-region and look at my area, we see that Lancashire had a GVA of 88.7 in 1995, but that went down to 78.7 in the figures for 2008. That is a 10 point drop. What was the RDA doing if that was happening?

[Tom Blenkinsop]

What are the actual or nominal figures? What is this 82% of?

[Eric Ollerenshaw]

I am talking about a national average of 100 from 1995 to 2008. The hon. Gentleman’s area declined even further.

[David Mowat]

The point my hon. Friend is making extremely powerfully is that, in the last year of the previous Government, the north-south divide reached a peak for the previous three decades. That is extraordinary; it was brought about by the boom in the south-east and London, and it is a fact.

[Eric Ollerenshaw]

Let me move on.

I congratulate the Government on being among those who recognised that something needs to be done. Yes, the regional growth fund is not the biggest thing, and we want more to be done.

[Angela Smith]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Eric Ollerenshaw]

May I just continue a little further before I give way?

At the moment, however, we are learning as we are doing. I was here in May when some Members complained about the first round of bids. I suggested that it was following the old methods of the RDA in the north-west, and my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) has mentioned that, too. The areas prescribed were Greater Manchester and Merseyside—for obvious reasons, given European rules and all the rest of it; but there was a lack of actual support for good businesses in other areas, such as my own, which had the capacity to expand and take on more people. For example, Northern Tissue Group, with 150 employees—so it was not applying for the biggest grant—was denied a grant in the first round. I am pleased that in the second round it is still in discussions, and it looks as if it may well succeed.

[Angela Smith]

rose—

[Tom Blenkinsop]

rose—

[Eric Ollerenshaw]

I shall give way first to the hon. Lady, and then to the hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop).

[Angela Smith]

My constituency is Penistone and Stocksbridge, with an “s” in it. It is being misquoted all over the place.

[Eric Ollerenshaw]

My apologies to Yorkshire.

[Angela Smith]

Is the hon. Gentleman really saying that the Government can do more for less—for two thirds less? Is he really saying that they can deliver more growth and rebalancing of the economy on a fund that is only one third of the original sum on the table?

[Eric Ollerenshaw]

There are a couple of things to say. My hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West has explained the economic circumstances, and I do not need to go through that again. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) keeps pointing out, the bureaucratic cost of the regional development agencies was something like £300 million, before any money got to any business through any due diligence process. We got rid of that, and what I regard as the success in round 2 is the fact that the companies in question are way beyond the normal areas, in Burnley, Wigan and as far as Carlisle and Cumbria—and I hope that my own part of Lancaster is part of that. That is a recognition of where success lies, and what we have learned from the mistakes of the regional development agencies.

[ Mrs Linda Riordan in the Chair]

[Tom Blenkinsop]

The hon. Gentleman is very generous with his time, and although we disagree, he is obviously fighting hard for his local patch. The only point I will make is about the regional growth fund and its significance in the north-south divide. I will go back to the nominal figures for how much was put into the north-east, for example. More, nominally, was going into the north-east. If the regional growth fund is such a great regional pot of cash, why is it less than the money that the Government are spending on mutualising the Post Office?

[Eric Ollerenshaw]

Yet again, because of the circumstance that we were left with by the previous Government. It seems we must go on repeating those figures. I think everyone understands—and that the hon. Gentleman knows it. I was not going to go into this—other hon. Members have mentioned it—but it is not just the regional growth fund that is relevant. There is also the national insurance contribution holiday for new start-ups, and the Localism Bill. Many Government Members believe that the Bill will equip local authorities to do a great deal more for themselves, and get through the sub-regional bureaucracy, which we have abolished, and do something for their areas. They are far more in the picture as to what is successful.

[James Wharton]

Opposition Members seem to think that the only money is Government money. Is not it the case that, because of careful targeting, funding through the regional growth fund is leveraging almost six times its own value in private investment, which is delivering the growth and investment that we need in our regional economies?

[Eric Ollerenshaw]

My hon. Friend makes the point about what we hope to get from the measures far better than me. All that I wanted to say to Opposition Members was what we have learned from the regional development agencies’ mistakes, their excessive bureaucracy and, in their last years, their failure to deal straightforwardly with business as business deals with things. Instead—

[Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)]

rose—

[Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)]

rose—

[Eric Ollerenshaw]

I am sorry; I must finish. I have only got a couple of minutes. Perhaps the hon. Gentlemen can intervene on other hon. Members.

Opposition Members talked about instructions from Whitehall, but I think, as a member of an RDA board, we got new instructions every month from Whitehall about where the money should go and on what it should be spent. There was no real discussion with straightforward business about what it wanted to do. I hope that what is happening now is the beginning of that approach.

I want to finish with certain questions to Ministers, as other hon. Members have done. We see what we are doing as a beginning. There is a huge north-south divide, and the Government seem to be learning while they are doing; but we have questions about where we go from here with growth funds, and in continuing to deal with the north-south divide, which has got worse in the past 13 years.

[Mrs Linda Riordan (in the Chair)]

I will call the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile) next, but perhaps he will keep his comments short, because I intend to call the shadow Minister at 12.10.

12:04

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

Thank you for calling me, Mrs Riordan. I will be as brief and as quick as I can. I congratulate the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) on securing the debate, which has been interesting, not to say feisty.

I thank my hon. Friend the Minister for giving some grant to Princess Yachts, which does not appear on the list. It is a very big, important manufacturer of luxury boats in my constituency. To give some context, Plymouth is the largest conurbation west of Bristol, and 38% of people in work there are employed in the public sector. There is a desperate need to rebalance the economy. I am delighted that the application was made with cross-party support. My hon. Friend the Member for South West Devon (Mr Streeter), the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) and I were very supportive of the application, and we are delighted that it came forward. It is the second of the Plymouth applications to have been granted; the Western Morning News and Plymouth university gained some funding in the first round.

Plymouth has a fine reputation. It is a global centre for marine science and engineering, and the decision made by my hon. Friend the Minister to put moneys into a significant cluster of economic activity will pay significant dividends much further down the line. We need—most certainly in Plymouth, which is a low-skill and low-wage economy—to develop the business of understanding, so that we can compete with countries such as China and India.

The help to Princess Yachts has been a real fillip. There was a threat of the company—which is no longer British-owned, but owned by people in France—relocating. The owners were considering sites in eastern Europe, and had identified a place. We can now try to ensure something like 300 new jobs that might otherwise have gone abroad.

This has been a very useful debate, and I am grateful to the Minister for listening to the issues. However, I would argue that the south-west, which is never the sexiest of places economically, needs help. I encourage my hon. Friend to visit us, and see for himself some of the excellent work in the burgeoning private sector.

12:07

[Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Riordan, as it was to serve under that of Mr Gray. I warmly congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith), not just on her timing, but on the excellence of the arguments that she put forward. Indeed, I welcome all the interventions and comments made by Labour Members, because we have been trying to address the issue in the round.

It is always important for hon. Members to speak up for their constituencies, as the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile) and others on both sides of the Chamber have done. However, the debate is about the overall effectiveness of the regional growth fund, and it is on its overall effectiveness, compared with previous funding streams, that it should be judged. It is relevant in that context to say a little about the comparison between the regional development agencies and the regional growth fund.

I am sorry that the Government do not like the repetition, but I repeat that it is a fact that the regional growth fund will have only a third of the money that the RDAs would have had over the same period. It is not surprising, therefore, that both rounds were massively over-subscribed. More than £6 billion-worth of bids were submitted for the two rounds, with only £1.4 billion up for grabs. As my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge pointed out, in the second round, three out of every four bids put forward were—I will be charitable—not able to receive funding under the RGF. The Government have now rather slyly confirmed that there will not be a third round. The Minister might want to comment further on that, because it was certainly indicated previously that there would be. We must realise that the bids that have not succeeded face 18 months without the prospect of support from the regional growth fund, in what is probably the grimmest economic climate for many years.

Having said that, I should be charitable to the Government. It is perhaps not surprising that the regional growth fund has been so slow to get off the ground, and that the funding has been so slow to be allocated. Ministers from a number of Departments have spent months suggesting that the regional growth fund could be the cure for all ills. They are on record in Hansard as suggesting that the fund could pay for housing pathfinder projects, the York railway museum, and even the “silicon city” proposal in east London. Those plans were all lauded by Ministers as worthy bidders for the fund. Ministers have obviously been taking inspiration from the parable of the loaves and the fish in the Bible, but I have not seen either the Minister or the Secretary of State walk on water recently.

On 12 April, the Government announced the 45 winning bids, but well over six months later, nearly 90% of first-round bidders still had not received their cash from the Government. Doubtless that was why, on “The Daily Politics” show a couple of weeks ago, Andrew Neil rather unkindly, in his crisp fashion, asked the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs a question to which she did not have a good answer. He said that:

“your coalition government, citing bureaucratic snags, has conceded that the £1.4 billion Regional Growth Fund has so far disbursed £5.8 million, why is government so useless?”

[James Wharton]

Earlier in this informative debate, the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) said that two and a half years of due diligence were conducted on the Sheffield Forgemasters loan, yet no money was given at that point. It is important that due diligence is conducted when Government money is given out. Regional growth fund money is often tied up with private investment, which can come first to allow projects to go ahead. Does the hon. Member for Blackpool South (Mr Marsden) acknowledge that?

[Mr Marsden]

It is important that there is due diligence. I will come on to explain why that is, and why the Government do not seem to have done it well.

As I was saying, nearly 90% of first-round bidders had not received their money. It is not only the Opposition saying that. In yesterday’s “Today” programme, the chief executive of the North East chamber of commerce, James Ramsbotham, was asked whether the money will help. Referring to the second round, he said:

“It’s…difficult to say, because of…the first tranche of the RGF…not a penny has been paid”.

I assume that he was referring to the north-east. He also said that

“the businesses that it’s going to are…already doing incredibly well…I do believe that it’s worth investing in success…although there is clearly a lot of debate about whether there should be more investment in jobs and in infrastructure”.

He said that the delay was serious and needed to be addressed. When asked about whether the Government should have scrapped the regional development agencies, he said that One North East had worked rather well to promote the area for tourism and business, that nobody would be doing that now, and that it would be a loss.

That brings us on to a broader point about the way in which the Government got rid of the RDAs and the impact on the regional growth fund. One of our criticisms is that the process of filtering the bids has had little regional input. The RDAs had good expert advisers, who could have been used either directly in the regional growth fund bids or in local enterprise partnerships. However, because the process has been driven by two of the horses of the apocalypse, in the shape of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, who wanted the mention of anything regional blotted out, those people have been lost. That is a great loss.

The Government have tried to hide behind excuses for the delays. Lord Heseltine stated last month that RGF money was never expected to come first, and that businesses would proceed with other sources of cash first. Yet the guidance on the RGF’s bidding criteria, as Opposition Members have already said, states that bidders would usually expect to receive the cash in line with other payments.

In the article in The Times that has already been referred to, the Minister made precisely that point. He talked about the problems that there had been with certain bidders not being able to draw down private sector funds, which was holding up the Government’s release of cash. The Government cannot have it both ways—they cannot on the one hand say that it is perfectly all right for the money to come at the end of the process, and on the other concede to The Times that the fact that the money has not been forthcoming is a serious part of the problem. That is part and parcel of the blurred and confusing way in which the Government have proceeded.

The Minister said in the article that due diligence should take about six weeks on average, but clearly that has not been the case; 40 bidders were still waiting six months later. Sometimes the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills seems to resemble the Spanish empire of Philip II, where the bureaucracy was so labyrinthine and took so long that a famous quote said, “If death came from Madrid, I would be immortal”. We all know what happened to the Spanish armada, and I hope that its fate will not befall the Minister, the Department or its officials. There is a serious point about how the Government have handled the process. I would like to hear from the Minister what will happen to the money that he says may not be distributed under due diligence.

It is also important to ask what input there is into the process within BIS. How many people are working on it? The Minister needs to answer the questions raised by the Opposition about external factors and costs, but I know from his answer to a question of mine on 8 September that only 11 full-time officials in the Department were working on the regional growth fund at that time. I leave Members to consider whether that is reasonable. Given that it has taken the Department a long time to deal with only five bids from round 1, how long do Members think it will take to deal with 119?

Although the scheme is called a regional growth fund, there appears to have been little or no regional input in the process, with decisions taken in Whitehall. Taking the panel as an example, we know who is on it, but 15 months after the process was launched, we still do not know clearly what the panel does and how it does it. It would be helpful if the Minister could explain precisely the link between the panel’s advice and the decisions made. That is extremely important, particularly in light of two articles in The Times and the Financial Times today. The FT article dealt with an issue that the Opposition have already raised—the interests of one of the members on the panel. The article in The Times drew some conclusions on how there seemed to be a relationship between the distribution of bids, political areas in the country, and companies that are significant backers of the Conservative party. That is for The Times to say; it is not for me to comment on. I prefer to take up what is said at the end of the article. The Minister has to listen to this. The article states that the process is getting a lukewarm welcome from the CBI and from the director general of the British Chambers of Commerce, who said:

“The speed at which this funding is delivered will be fundamental to the success of the Regional Growth Fund.”

The Government must move faster. The deputy director general of the CBI said:

“Despite its size, this fund does not have the capacity to plug the finance gap. The Government needs to look at other funding options to help these firms grow.”

Those are exactly the points that the Opposition have made throughout the process. We believe in the principle that money that is meant for the regions should stay in the regions.

There are three key criteria regarding regional growth policy on which the Government should be judged: the conduct of the RGF and how adequate it is as a replacement for RDA funding; how adequate LEPs are to take over the RDA structures—I have already referred to the failings in the system—and mechanisms for releasing European funding to the regions. The Minister needs to address all those issues, particularly the role of investment in transport infrastructure.

The Minister and the Secretary of State preside over a fund into which they do not put any money—the money comes from the Department for Communities and Local Government, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and the Department for Transport. That showed in the first few months, when, as I said, those Departments steamrollered the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and pushed it out of the way. It is now trying to claw back the role, but too much time has been lost in that process, and too much time is still being lost because of the incompetence of the process of due diligence.

12:19

[The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) on securing this debate. She will not be surprised to hear that I accept neither her analysis nor her arguments. One of the points that has come from the many excellent contributions, to which I will respond if I can in my reply, is the issue of confidence. The official Opposition will want to raise issues because good scrutiny is part of Parliament, but they should remember that confidence is important for business. Labour needs to be careful not to talk down the economy. I absolutely agree with balanced scrutiny, but point-scoring does not help our constituents, and we should bear that in mind.

The Government believe that if we are to have a sustained recovery, we need a resilient economy—an economy that is balanced between public and private, and between industries. My hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) made a good point when he mentioned the significant drop in employment in manufacturing during the 13 years of Labour Government.

We are also well aware that we need an economy that is balanced across the whole country, which is why we have set out a comprehensive approach to local growth to replace the old RDA system. My hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) was absolutely spot on: whatever individual cases may be made about specific projects, the sad reality is that after £16 billion and 10 years of an RDA system that was expressly established to close the gap between north and south, the gap got bigger. A responsible Government cannot ignore that simple fact.

Our strategy incorporates a range of elements, including the regional growth fund. It includes the local enterprise partnerships. The 38 in place cover 99% of the English economy. Local business and civic leaders set what they believe are the right priorities for their local area. We also have 24 enterprise zones, which will accelerate growth in key areas. In Yorkshire and Humber, the area of which the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge is a part, we see three specific enterprise zones—one in the Sheffield city region, one in the Leeds city region and one in the Hull and Humber area. With those programmes, we have ensured that where we are able to, given the difficult circumstances that we have inherited, we have put money into key infrastructure. For example, we have pressed on with the controversial high-speed rail investment, which is very important for the midlands and Birmingham and the whole north-east.

[Tom Blenkinsop]

rose—

[Mr Prisk]

If the hon. Gentleman will allow me to get on to the regional growth fund, I will let him come in at that stage.

The regional growth fund complements our other growth policies. Worth up to £1.4 billion of public money, it has two crucial objectives: to unlock the private sector investment to enable key projects to proceed, and to support areas that are especially dependent on the public sector, to enable them to have more balanced and resilient economies in the future.

We have had two popular bidding rounds, and the results of the second were announced yesterday. I am sorry that the Labour party is upset that not everyone won. Well, that is life. The reality is that it is a competitive fund, and it seems peculiar that Labour does not understand that rather obvious principle.

Let us look at round 1, which was the subject of Labour’s criticisms. We invited bids up to 21 January this year. We received 464 bids, the total value of which would have been something like £2.78 billion. In April, we were able to confirm the 50 conditional allocations, totalling in the region of £450 million of public money. Importantly, that £450 million of taxpayers’ money was offered up in the knowledge that having looked at those schemes, we could lever in investment from the private sector of £2.5 billion—a balance of five to one. I am pleased to confirm to the Chamber that more than half of the successful projects that we identified in April are already under way. When complete, the schemes in round 1 are expected to create or safeguard 27,000 direct jobs, or a further 100,000 indirect jobs. There are very good quotes from General Motors about how it that is already under way with the Vivaro van project in Luton. We have also heard about Bridon in Tyneside and Bentley in the north-west. My hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey) mentioned Stobart, and up in Teesside, the restart project is under way.

What worries me about this debate—Opposition Members seem or choose not to understand this—is that the whole point about the programme is that the regional growth fund is designed to unlock private sector investment and lever it into schemes, and as anyone who has been in business knows, that means that payments made by Government will often come in the latter stages of development.

[Tom Blenkinsop]

Labour Members fully understand that public-led investment attracts private-led investment. Will the Minister confirm how many RGF projects have European regional development fund match funding, and whether the Treasury is retaining those ERDF funds from the regions?

[Mr Prisk]

There is a very small proportion of funds related to ERDF in round 1, and even fewer in round 2. My point, which the Opposition do not want to accept, is that when the public sector seeks to invest money, it is doing so to unlock the private sector investment. If we do not get that private sector investment, there will be a problem. The Opposition seem to believe that everything that we do should be measured solely and entirely by how much Government spend. Have they not learned from 13 years that it is how we spend the money that is important?

[Angela Smith]

There is the other issue of the assets that belonged to the RDAs, which could be used to help unlock private sector investment. What will the Government do with those assets? Are we going to have a fire sale, or will we use those assets to invest in infrastructure and private sector growth?

[Mr Prisk]

It is self-evidently the latter, which is why we established the local stewardship model. It is why in July we offered Members of this House the opportunity to meet Ministers, and why we are repeating that exercise on Thursday. We are determined to ensure that the assets are used for the benefit of the local economy. I hope that the hon. Lady will come to that meeting so that she can understand that.

[Richard Burden]

The Minister has talked about confidence and about unlocking and levering in investment from the private sector. Does he not accept that the performance of the RGF is important in maintaining confidence? Let me give him an example. As far as Longbridge is concerned, it is difficult to get the confidence from the private sector to unlock investment when the Government are not clear about what is going on. We can only point for so long to the investment that the previous Labour Government made by way of a new college and a new innovation centre. The private sector wants to know whether this Government back the Longbridge project as well. It really needs answers pretty soon.

[Mr Prisk]

After the dithering by the Labour party over Longbridge and that site, the hon. Gentleman should be a little careful about what he says. We made the situation crystal clear to the owners, the local enterprise partnership and the city council. Those discussions are in hand, and I am confident that they will be concluded successfully.

[Jason McCartney]

I thank the Minister for coming to the royal armouries in Leeds just a few weeks ago to speak to the Leeds city region LEP. Some 600 energetic, enthusiastic and positive business leaders are really moving forward with this. I take on board his point about business confidence. Camira Fabrics, Thornton & Ross Pharmaceuticals, Newsholme Food Group and Equi-Trek horse boxes in my patch are all going out there and making it happen. Does the Minister not agree that the regional growth fund is just part of the package for growth? We also have the enterprise zones, the LEPs and 450,000 apprenticeships; that is up 50%. Yesterday, a young entrepreneur got in contact with me about the enterprise allowance. The regional growth fund is just part of our package, while the Opposition only have an unfunded cut in VAT.

[Mr Prisk]

I could not have put it better myself.

[Mr Marsden]

Oh, yes, you could.

[Mr Prisk]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that flattering remark. May I return to the issue of due diligence? The Opposition tell us that the situation is disgraceful and has been going on for months and months. The reality is that the average time for due diligence is three to six weeks. That contrasts sharply with the performance of the Labour party when in government. It established the automotive assistance programme. It took 15 months for that to deliver a single penny. Why will the Opposition not accept their own failings?

Take the trade credit insurance scheme, which was launched as a £5 billion package. Thousands of people were supposed to benefit from it. In the end, one company benefited, at a cost of £81,500. When the Opposition talk about due diligence, they need to be a little careful about how they make their arguments. In particular, they should be careful about the reference to allegations in newspapers concerning individuals. The hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) referred to allegations about one of the panel members, Mr Moulton. Let me make it clear that Mr Moulton took no part in decisions on any areas in which he had an interest, and that includes in the decision on Redx.

Let me turn to the second round. That round has improved in leverage on the first round. It is not £5 of private money to £1, but £6 to £1. When we look at the scheme as a whole, we will see that a third of a million jobs are being safeguarded, and £8.5 billion is being levered in from the private sector to help many of the jobs and businesses to which many hon. Members have referred. I hope that the Labour party can look, just for once, at the facts rather than engaging in cheap point-scoring. This is an important debate. We all want jobs to be created; I hope that Labour will share in that debate.

Alcohol (Under-18s)

Tuesday 1st November 2011 Westminster Hall

12:30

[Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)]

Thank you very much, Mrs Riordan, for calling me to speak. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first time in a Westminster Hall debate. I suspect that it is not what I am about to say that is causing colleagues to leave Westminster Hall so quickly.

At the outset, I declare an interest, in that the father of the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, the hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire), who is the Minister responding to the debate, is a constituent of mine. I hope that that fact might sway the Minister when he makes his remarks.

This debate has been prompted by continuing concerns in Newquay, which is in my constituency, about under-age drinking, including its health impacts, its role in causing antisocial behaviour and the part that parents can play in providing children with alcohol for consumption in an unsupervised setting.

The Chamber will be aware that, like many other seaside towns and many of our city centres, Newquay has had its share of problems associated with binge drinking. The Chamber may be interested to know that 5,000 unaccompanied 16 and 17-year-olds arrive in Newquay every year during a four-week period, mostly to celebrate the end of their GCSEs. Sadly, this annual pilgrimage—some might call it a rite of passage—has become associated with drink-related antisocial behaviour.

The tragic deaths of 16-year-old Paddy Higgins and 18-year-old Andrew Curwell in 2009 served as a wake-up call to the local community in Newquay that action needed to be taken to protect children and young people when they visit Newquay to prevent similar accidents occurring in the future. Newquay has risen to that challenge. The formation of the Newquay Safe Partnership has seen organisations and individuals including Devon and Cornwall police, Cornwall county council, residents, local businesses and organisations representing pubs and clubs, the off-licence trade and providers of accommodation working together to tackle alcohol misuse and irresponsible behaviour.

[Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, as has been stated in a recent report by the think-tank Demos, parental involvement is vital? That report shows that, if income, education, ethnicity and gender are discounted, styles of parenting are very influential, and it also showed that a combination of discipline, affection and parental involvement ensure that 16-year-olds are less likely to engage in dangerous drinking.

[Stephen Gilbert]

The hon. Lady has pre-empted a point that I was going to make later, namely that in many cases parents underestimate their influence on their children. She is right to quote the Demos research.

Public services in Newquay have risen to the challenge of dealing with under-age drinking. We have seen the introduction of Challenge 25, with staff being given training to spot fake identity cards; there is a confidential phone number to report proxy buying, which is the buying of alcohol by adults for children; and a code of conduct has been introduced for bar crawls. The police have introduced a “follow you home” scheme, which sees the local Newquay force inform parents and local authorities in an individual’s home town about instances of antisocial behaviour that take place on holiday. There are also new minimum safety standards for local providers of accommodation, and there is concerted police action to seize alcohol in the streets and on public transport. Coast Safe, an alcohol awareness and seaside safety lesson package for teenagers, was launched yesterday. It was put together with the help of Newquay schoolchildren, and it is sponsored by St Austell Brewery. It aims to provide a resource for schools across the country to reduce loss of life and serious injury among young people by encouraging sensible drinking and responsible enjoyment in seaside towns.

The cost of crime in Newquay in 2008-09 was more than £9 million. The success of the Newquay Safe Partnership is that it has reduced that cost by more than £250,000. Nuisance behaviour is down by 22%; violence is down by 7%; and drug offences are down by 14%. I commend all the people who are involved in the Newquay Safe Partnership scheme.

Although most parents want to introduce their children to alcohol in a responsible and measured way, one contributory factor to the binge drinking and antisocial behaviour that we see in Newquay, and indeed in other seaside towns, and it is a factor that the police remain concerned about, is the way in which some parents send their children to Newquay with huge amounts of alcohol. I will give some examples of this parental behaviour supplied by Devon and Cornwall police, which put the issue into context and which may benefit the Chamber.

One Newquay guest house has reported that parents regularly turn up with their children and a car boot full of booze. When told by the management that that is unacceptable, parents seek to meet their children elsewhere in the town to pass the alcohol to them. In one case, 67 cans of Special Brew were seized from four children who were visiting Newquay for a weekend. Another guest house reported finding 350 items of alcohol in one room that had been let out to just six children who were visiting Newquay. A local caravan site seized more than 353 cans and bottles containing alcohol from 16-year-olds during a 10-day period, including 117 cans of Stella and 5 litres of vodka. On one day in July this year, police confiscated 443 cans and bottles containing alcohol from children arriving in Newquay on public transport. One 16-year-old girl arrived in the town for a four-day break with £300 in her wallet, and later that same day she was found incapacitated by alcohol and her parents were asked to come to Newquay to collect her. A youth mentoring scheme reports that 70% of young people have been given alcohol by their parents.

As I have said, the vast majority of parents want to introduce their children to alcohol in a responsible and supervised way, but it seems that some parents are not considering the impact of leaving their children unsupervised in an unfamiliar town with large amounts of alcohol. When police and other local authorities or local people, such as the managers of hotels or guest houses, try to reproach parents about their behaviour, they are often met with hostility. Police were told by the parents of one 16-year-old boy, who had 64 cans of Special Brew seized from him, that they were “spoiling his fun”.

In Newquay, as in other seaside towns, local public authorities effectively adopt young people when they are in the town.

[Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend, who is making a fantastically positive speech about what has been happening in Newquay to tackle these very difficult problems. In case that people think that under-age drinking is a particular problem for Newquay, I want to back up my hon. Friend by saying that it is a problem all over the country and certainly in other seaside towns around Cornwall. It is important that we see this as a national issue and not just a problem in Newquay. It is also important that we learn from the fantastic work in Newquay.

[Stephen Gilbert]

My hon. Friend is exactly right that this is not a problem that is unique to Newquay. It is a problem that Newquay perhaps now has expertise in tackling, but I hope that the lessons that we have learned, the successes of schemes such as the Newquay Safe Partnership and the way in which we are now moving forward to tackle the parental supply of alcohol can be instructive to all parts of the country.

[Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)]

Should we not address not only the issue of parents sending children away to places such as Newquay with alcohol but the supply of alcohol that is routinely provided in children’s own homes? Indeed, should we consider making it an offence for parents knowingly to supply other people’s children with alcohol at parties on their own premises, which we would otherwise call proxy buying?

[Stephen Gilbert]

My hon. Friend has opened a can of worms by raising the responsibilities that parents have to not only their own children but other people’s children in their homes. Parents often underestimate their influence over their children, whether it involves setting an example or supplying alcohol for parties. She has made an excellent point, and I hope that the Minister will respond to it when he winds up the debate.

We know from research by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, which published a paper on this issue in June, that if a young person finds alcohol easy to obtain their chances of drinking excessively increase fourfold. Equally, if a young person sees their parents drunk, it doubles the chance that they themselves will get drunk. In that report, parents emerge as one of the crucial influences on teenage drinking. Shockingly, that research, which was based on a survey of 5,700 children, found that one in five children claim to have been drunk for the first time by the age of 14 and that half of all 16-year-olds report having been drunk.

Last weekend, further research from the schools health education unit showed that children as young as 12 say that they drink the equivalent of 19 glasses of wine per week. In that survey, 83,000 school pupils were questioned, and 4% of 12 and 13-year-olds said that they consume 28 or more units of alcohol a week, which is more than the maximum amount suggested in the adult weekly guidelines for alcohol. Clearly, it might not be possible or appropriate to use legislation to solve this widespread cultural problem, but we must ensure that legislation passed by this House does not create an opportunity for the problem to get worse. I welcome the steps that the Government are taking to crack down on people who sell alcohol to children, including the doubling to £20,000 of the fine for under-age alcohol sales and the extension of the period of closure that can be given as an alternative to prosecution when premises are found to have been involved in supplying alcohol to children.

I want the Minister to touch on a number of issues that continue to cause me and the police concern. The first is section 149 of the Licensing Act 2003, which prohibits the proxy purchase of alcohol by adults for children. The section has been successfully used in Newquay in a campaign supported by Crimestoppers, with a number of individuals being prosecuted when there was evidence that alcohol has been bought by an adult and supplied to a child. There is a clear problem, however, with parent dealers, who when questioned by the police often say that they did not buy the alcohol for their children—they just happened to have it and handed to them. Any well-prepared brief could drive a coach and horses through the attempted prosecution of a parent under that legislation.

Another legal avenue at our disposal are child neglect provisions, but they would apply only to under-16s, leaving a hole where the slightly older, but still vulnerable, 17 and 18-year-olds are. Will the Minister, therefore, undertake to review section 149, and look at tightening up rules on parental supply, perhaps stipulating that parents must be on hand to supervise the drinking of any alcohol that they supply to their children?

A second legislative hole is in the Confiscation of Alcohol (Young Persons) Act 1997, which provides the police with the power to confiscate but to make an arrest only if the request to hand over the alcohol is not complied with. Because of the significant pressure on local police forces, it is often not possible for them to make an arrest even if such action is desirable, and their power in that regard must be strengthened.

I firmly believe that we must look again at alcohol pricing, and I have raised the issue in the House. Even with the changes recently announced by the Government, supermarkets’ ability to sell alcohol at prices that are so much cheaper than in pubs and clubs causes genuine concern to many people.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for initiating this important debate. He has painted a powerful picture of the effect of alcohol misuse in his constituency. Does he agree that we must have a minimum price of at least 50p, as recommended by the British Medical Association, if we are to make a difference?

[Stephen Gilbert]

I am not expert enough to say where the price should be set, but I agree that the Government need to take a concerted look at minimum alcohol pricing, because what has been done to date does not go far enough. I firmly agree that minimum pricing is the only real way forward. The hon. Gentleman’s point is backed up by a 2008 report by the university of Sheffield, which showed that minimum pricing is the best way to reduce alcohol harm, and the report forms the basis of a handbook being produced by the World Health Organisation on its approach to dealing with alcohol-related harm.

The Minister will be aware, as early-day motion 2264 makes clear, that of the 4,000 price promotions under way in February, only one would have been affected by the current Government policy to prevent the sale of alcohol at a cost below duty plus VAT. Will the Minister undertake to meet me and representatives of Devon and Cornwall police to discuss minimum alcohol pricing and the further steps that the Government can take? Will he also look, with colleagues in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, at the ubiquity of alcohol in supermarkets? If a licensing regime and hours are felt appropriate for clubs and pubs, should they not also apply to supermarkets and other outlets? The Minister will be aware that the Association of Chief Police Officers is considering a national policing alcohol harm reduction strategy, which covers the role of parental control and supply. Will he engage with officers who face this problem across the country, and take concrete steps to help the police to keep children safe?

The problem of alcohol abuse requires a deep-seated cultural change. A single debate here today will not achieve that, but I hope that it will help to promote discussion about parents’ role in supplying children with alcohol for unsupervised consumption. As well as ensuring that the police have the necessary powers to combat under-age drinking, we need a greater emphasis on education. The charity Drinkaware has recently launched a “Your kids and alcohol” campaign, which emphasises the importance of parents talking to their children from an early age about drink, ideally in their pre-teens before the influence of peers increases. Drinkaware’s advice to parents is clear, “You have more influence than you think.” Most parents assume that they are the last people their children would turn to to talk about alcohol, but research shows that children between the ages of nine and 17 would go to their parents first. Parents need to talk to their children, and keep talking, before their friends do. Giving children the facts earlier ensures that they get accurate information with which to challenge what their friends tell them and make responsible choices.

We all enjoy a drink, but we must recognise the dangers that unsupervised drinking can present to children and the need for parents to help educate and protect them. I look forward to the Minister’s reply.

12:45

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (James Brokenshire)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Riordan.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) on securing this debate, and on his approach in advancing the case about parents’ responsibility in respect of their children. I also congratulate him on representing such a wonderful constituency. Many of my family members hail from the area around St Austell, and I have very happy memories of spending lots of time there during my childhood and thereafter. He is a very lucky Member of Parliament to represent such a fantastic area, with so many wonderful people, sights and places to visit.

I always encourage people to flock to the wonderful coastal resorts in Cornwall, such as Newquay, for their sheer beauty and wonderful landscape. However, I would not want their enjoyment to be interrupted or hindered by the wanton and yobbish behaviour of people who are there just to get drunk and cause mayhem in communities that have so much to offer. That behaviour must be challenged and addressed. I pay tribute to the work of the agencies in Newquay for the steps that they have taken and continue to take to ensure that the town is a very special place, the benefits of which can be enjoyed by both young and old. For many years, I have enjoyed the wonderful north Cornish coast, and I hope to continue to do so with my children.

I have heard what my hon. Friend has said and have first-hand experience of the context. He knows that I visited Newquay the summer before last, as Minister with responsibility for alcohol policy, and that I was lucky enough to spend an evening with some of the partners and agencies involved in the Newquay Safe Partnership, including Superintendent Julie Whitmarsh. I also visited the Central Inn to get a sense of the challenges and problems that the town had been experiencing. I pay tribute to what the local police, the local authority, the Newquay Safe Partnership and others have achieved in the face of the challenges involved in tackling alcohol-fuelled crime and disorder. I was shocked and disturbed by the accounts of some the worst excesses of irresponsible drinking by young people, and I was outraged to hear about the actions of irresponsible parents in, essentially, assisting that behaviour.

I have looked back at the press commentary that followed my visit to Newquay in July 2010, when I said to the Western Morning News:

“I was just astounded by this virtual mountain of alcohol that had been taken after being supplied by parents. I think it is utterly irresponsible. As a parent you have the ultimate responsibility towards your child, and thinking that they are going to be safe when they are loaded up with booze is unbelievable.”

That was my view then, and it is my view today. I endorse my hon. Friend’s approach in underlining this important issue.

I realise that the issue is complex. My hon. Friend and others have made some thoughtful and interesting points in the debate. They have scoped out the relevant challenges in this sphere for agencies and the Government, and they have underlined the responsibility that all parents have to their children. I shall try to respond to as many concerns as I can in the time allotted.

Along with other towns, Newquay faces particular problems every year. Hon. Members were right to say that those problems should not be regarded as specific to Newquay, and it would be wrong to characterise the town in that way. Alcohol misuse affects many communities—we see it in our town centres, in rural and seaside towns and in other leisure areas, too. The holiday season is particularly challenging for the west country and other coastal resorts, which have become a destination of choice for young people who want to celebrate the end of their exams or generally have a good time. Sadly, dangerous levels of binge drinking too often become synonymous with such celebrations. My hon. Friend has referred to the tragic cases of Andrew Curwell and Paddy Higgins, the teenagers who lost their lives two years ago as a consequence of alcohol misuse. Many other young people have suffered life-changing injuries or circumstances as a result of accidents.

In a broader, national context, more than 1 million hospital admissions are alcohol-related, which is twice the number of admissions in 2003. Statistics also suggest that more than 40% of violent crime is alcohol-related. With that in mind, I am not surprised by the latest statistics relating to Newquay, which show that seven out of 10 drunk youngsters in Newquay were supplied with alcohol by their parents. Like my hon. Friend, I saw some outrageous examples of parental irresponsibility during my visit to the town last summer, when parents were providing their children with excessive supplies of alcohol. In one incident, the police confiscated 370 bottles and cans from a small group of teenagers, including a bottle of 63% rum, which was believed to have been supplied by a parent. I was astounded by the virtual mountain of alcohol that I saw seized by police in Newquay and the stories that I was told about parents abusing the police simply for trying to protect their children from harm.

What can we do to tackle the problem and change such behaviour? To start, the Government take a tough stance on alcohol. We are clear that we will not tolerate the scale of alcohol-related harms that have been experienced over the past decade. That is why we passed the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011, which introduces a package of new measures to rebalance the Licensing Act 2003 in favour of local communities. It gives local community leaders greater tools and powers to shape the type of night-time economy that they and their communities want to see.

We also take under-age drinking very seriously indeed and have used powers under the new 2011 Act to send out a strong signal. We have doubled the maximum fine available to the courts when sentencing irresponsible businesses that persistently sell alcohol to under-18s. However, my hon. Friend will be quick to point out that we are talking about not children who buy alcohol illegally themselves, but our response to parents who are prepared to give their children large quantities of alcohol.

As my hon. Friend has said, the law already enables the police to charge an adult with the criminal offence of buying alcohol on behalf of a child who is aged under 18. That offence carries a maximum £5,000 fine. In addition, the police can issue a penalty notice for disorder for the offence. Those powers give them an option to impose a swift financial punishment to deal with misbehaviour and provide a practical deterrent to future reoffending. The law also allows for the punishment of parents who are wilfully negligent towards their children, although, as my hon. Friend has said, only in relation to those aged under 16.

The use of such powers may not be relevant or appropriate in all circumstances, and it will depend on the facts of the case and on whether there is a reasonable prospect of conviction based on the available evidence. However, those powers provide the police with an option in criminal law. It is for local police to decide their response to local crime priorities.

I hear clearly the points made by my hon. Friend about the practical application of the law and certain offences. We will continue to listen and be guided by the Association of Chief Police Officers in connection with law enforcement. He makes an important point about ensuring that the law is used effectively and robustly. However, we do not want to legislate unnecessarily or be overly prescriptive. This is a difficult problem that needs careful consideration.

Parents are well placed to introduce alcohol to their children sensibly. The answer lies in educating them and their children. That is why we endorse initiatives such as Coast Safe and why the new alcohol strategy, which I shall discuss shortly, will address advertising and so on, a concern which several hon. Members have raised. Newquay Safe Partnership has introduced innovative schemes to address the town’s problems and has worked in conjunction with Drinkaware. Some have said that the Government should go further in reflecting good local practice that works well, which was great to hear. The success of such schemes results from good partnership work such as in Newquay, which involves not only the police but trading standards, the local authority and some responsible businesses. Many hoteliers in Newquay closely co-operate with the police, and we should not lose sight of the strong partnership links that have helped to make a difference.

People argue that we should consider the raising the age limit for consuming alcohol to 21, for example, as it is in parts of the United States. We have not gone down that route, however, because many of the problems that we have alluded to relate to much younger children. It is important, therefore, to focus our attention differently, which is why the Government have not been attracted to that route.

My hon. Friend has highlighted particular sections of the 2003 Act. I will consider closely his comments on proxy purchasing to find out what advice or guidance can be provided and how to work proactively with the police in that context. I highlight the ongoing work with other Departments. The Government are working on an alcohol strategy, and Department of Health Ministers have been playing a leading role. The strategy will consider the culture of drinking in our society and how commercial alcohol advertising and social networking play a role in that culture.

The chief medical officer has published guidance for parents, health professionals and young people emphasising the importance of parents in shaping behaviour. I agree that schools have a clear responsibility to prevent drug and alcohol use as part of their wider pastoral role, which will be supported by the revised, simplified schools guidance that the Department for Education is working on.

I am conscious that time is defeating us. I thank my hon. Friend for securing the debate. The Government are conscious of the issue, and the new Department of Health-led strategy, which will emerge soon, will touch on a number of the themes that he has rightly brought to the attention of the House. This is work in progress and more remains to be done, but the Government are taking things forward.

Ukraine

Tuesday 1st November 2011 Westminster Hall

13:00

[Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair this lunch time, Mrs Riordan. I am extremely grateful to Mr Speaker for agreeing to let me have this debate on our relations with Ukraine at what is obviously a crucial time for that country. The trial and subsequent jailing of Yulia Tymoshenko, who was the Prime Minister of Ukraine and one of the key leaders during the orange revolution, has put Ukraine back on the front pages, and, unfortunately, not for a happy reason. It is important that we have this opportunity to consider what is going on and to ask the Government how they intend to respond to the situation.

We need to be clear that Ukraine is not a far-away country about which we know little. What happens in Ukraine matters very much indeed. It is the largest country in Europe and has a population of 40 million people. It achieved independent national status in 1991, and in 2004, during the orange revolution, the people of Ukraine demonstrated their commitment to and desire for a fully open liberal democracy. We should support all those people who have been campaigning for political reform in Ukraine and demonstrate, at what is clearly a difficult time for them, that we are concerned about what is going on in their country.

Ukraine also has a strategic significance for us and the rest of Europe. It is on the crossroads between Europe, Russia and the Caucasus, and has become one of the major corridors for oil and gas from east to west. That role as a corridor for energy transmission has provoked the recent crisis, because Mrs Tymoshenko was prosecuted for exceeding her powers in signing the deal with the Russians. Many in Ukraine feel that it has severely disadvantaged them, because it agreed too high a price for the gas. The situation is surrounded by many claims of corruption in Ukraine. I do not believe that many people outside Ukraine see this as anything other than a ham-fisted attempt by the current Ukraine Government to settle political scores and to exclude Mrs Tymoshenko from the political scene. Neutral observers from Denmark who are expert in looking at judicial processes have also made some serious criticisms about the way in which the trial was undertaken.

I was fortunate to be able to visit Ukraine in the first week of October. I am a member of the all-party group on Ukraine and I apologise on behalf of its chair, the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale), who cannot attend the debate. I visited Ukraine after the trial, but just before the sentence was announced, and met a lot of people. During that week, I did not meet anyone who thought that the trial was legally valid or morally or politically justified. I met people who were critical of Mrs Tymoshenko’s period in office and who had opposed her politically, but those self-same people were, none the less, critical of the trial and what had gone on. My impression is that the Ukraine Government embarked on that course of action without fully understanding the implications for their reputation either at home or abroad.

I do not think that it would be right for us to become completely fixated with the trial of one person, but unfortunately it seems to be part of a pattern of developments that has led from an open situation to an illiberal one. Other politicians in Ukraine, on both a regional and national level, have been put on trial on charges that some people think are trumped up. The judiciary is appointed by the Executive, so there must be question marks about how independent it is. A survey of the content of the state-owned television channel found that 97% of its broadcasts were supportive of the Government, which is a completely unbalanced situation. Moreover, although the presidential election of 2010 was felt to have been run on a free and fair process, there were more question marks about the way in which recent local elections were run. There are important parliamentary elections to come in a year’s time, so we need to look at the overall political situation in Ukraine. The Tymoshenko trial and sentencing highlight the issues.

Ukraine faces a major strategic choice. Negotiations have been ongoing for an association agreement with the European Union, and the Ukraine Government have repeatedly said that they want to go ahead with it. On the other hand, however, for historical reasons they are pulled towards Russia. I think that some people in Ukraine think that, as an alternative to going along with the EU association agreement, it might be desirable to join the customs union, which Mr Putin is putting together, between Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan. The Ukraine Government need to find a way forward that maintains good relations with all their neighbours.

We in this country have a long democratic tradition. Our democracy goes through positive phases and phases whereby we may be a little concerned about what is happening, but we know that it takes a long time to build a democratic society. It is partly about institutions, formal arrangements and the law, but it is also about practices, behaviour, common and shared understandings, and the give and take required for a well-functioning democracy. Ukrainians face trying to achieve that with two significant handicaps. The first is the role that some of the oligarchs seem to play in their democracy, and the second is the economic crisis that they face. I was shocked to learn that the Ukrainian economy is 30% smaller now than when the country achieved independence in 1991. Not only is the economy smaller, but there is far greater inequality in the country. It is not therefore surprising that some people are not entirely enamoured of the new politics. High unemployment has led to high levels of emigration. It is unclear, but perhaps 3 million or 4 million people have left Ukraine. They will, by and large, be people in their 20s and 30s. Such a situation has left behind a number of social problems, for example, abandoned children and old people not cared for. Ukrainians really do have a lot on their plate.

We should not be too sanctimonious about the matter because it was advisers from Britain, the European Union and America who rushed over to Ukraine and the other countries of the near east in the 1990s and enjoined on them a process of privatisation. In retrospect, that process was too far, too fast. Major industries were sold at knock-down prices into monopolistic markets. Therefore, the people who bought them were able to exploit market positions and make speedy fortunes. That is particularly problematic at the moment because people are sending their profits out of the country to Cyprus, which is an offshore tax haven. That has created a situation in which economic decisions are politicised and political decisions are subject to economic pressures. There are many reports of corruption in the country. Furthermore, at the moment, Ukraine is vulnerable to the crisis in the eurozone because obviously those countries are part of its major export markets.

Having tried to set out some of the context, I would like to ask the Minister what the Foreign and Commonwealth Office will do about the negotiations for the EU association agreement. Over the past month or so, Ministers have made several statements. I hope that the Minister will tell us that our message is that the trial and sentencing of Mrs Tymoshenko is unacceptable. Is it his intention to halt the negotiations? Is that the position the British Government want to take?

While we are making clear what we find unacceptable, I would also like to ask the Minister what we are doing to strengthen civil society. When I was in Ukraine, I was disappointed to discover that the technical assistance programme has been halved in the past 18 months and that no Minister has found time to visit Ukraine since the general election. I encourage the Minister or his colleagues to visit Ukraine. It is very beautiful, very fascinating and also extremely important.

We need to make it absolutely clear that we expect Ukraine to be a country that respects civil liberties, where the judiciary is independent and the media are free. As well as setting some standards, we also need to offer some support to the Ukrainians.

13:12

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr Jeremy Browne)]

Thank you, Mrs Riordan, for giving me the opportunity to wind up this brief but important debate. I am also pleased to have my first chance to speak under your chairmanship.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) on securing the important debate at a time when there is deep concern in Europe about recent developments in Ukraine. More generally, there is a tendency for many hon. Members to use Westminster Hall to raise constituency issues, which is quite appropriate. However, it is nice to have wider debates that affect our national interest and broader values as a country, and for hon. Members to be able to come to Westminster Hall and discuss such topics.

To assess the implications of the conviction of former Prime Minister Tymoshenko, we need to look at the wider picture and broader erosion of democratic standards in Ukraine during the past 18 months. The hon. Lady said that she regretted that no Minister had recently been to Ukraine. The Minister for Europe would have responded to the debate if he had not been travelling. He is not in Ukraine—I cannot remember which country he is in at the moment—but he travels frequently. I am sure he would welcome the chance to visit Ukraine at the earliest opportunity.

We need to consider the erosion of democratic standards in Ukraine and to answer the following question: why does Ukraine and what happens there matter to us in the United Kingdom? A stable, prosperous and democratic Ukraine that is anchored to European and Euro-Atlantic institutions is in the United Kingdom’s national interest for several reasons.

As the hon. Lady said, first, Ukraine is of immense geo-strategic importance, as it borders four European Union member states and, of course, Russia. We must also consider the size of the Ukrainian market, coupled with its near double-digit gross domestic product growth potential. That might not be the same as having double-digit growth but, if political and other institutions were put on the necessary footing, there is clearly the prospect for Ukraine to become an increasingly economically prosperous country. Obviously, that would offer significant opportunities to UK exporters and investors, as well as being of more immediate benefit to the people of Ukraine. Ukraine is also making a significant contribution to safeguarding international security. For example, it is the only non-NATO partner that regularly contributes to NATO missions.

Finally, Ukraine is a major part of the European energy security jigsaw. It is an important transit route from the east to Europe, with 80% of Russian gas sold to EU customers transiting through Ukraine. Of course, that matter is the nub of the issue, but it is also hugely important to the Ukrainian economy and makes the country more widely important in terms of the energy requirements of countries elsewhere in Europe. Ukraine’s closer integration with the EU offers the surest way of ensuring that not only Ukraine’s long-term interests, but ours and those of our European partners are met. If developments in Ukraine are damaging its prospects for EU integration, it is a matter of concern for the UK and our EU partners, as well as being of more narrow and immediate concern to the people of Ukraine.

Ms Tymoshenko’s conviction and the ongoing cases against a number of her former Ministers and officials give rise to serious concerns about where Ukraine is heading. Those concerns are a symptom of broader problems in Ukraine. We also have worries about blurring divisions between the three branches of power—the judiciary, the legislature and the Executive—and about the erosion of media freedoms and a worsening of the business climate as corruption becomes more prevalent. There is an unhappy cocktail of transgressions of liberalism. It is not simply a matter of considering the trial in isolation or how politicians are treated by the courts. There is a wider issue about civic society and its ability to debate and consider issues through the media and elsewhere, and the overall atmosphere in which business is conducted.

In the case of Ms Tymoshenko, it is worth stressing that it is not for the UK to comment on the guilt or innocence of any individual in a court case. Our concerns, which are supported by the views of international experts, relate to processes and principles. In this case, we are specifically concerned about the political motives behind the prosecution without sound legal grounds of Opposition figures, and the way in which any trials are conducted.

The Danish Helsinki Committee for Human Rights, which has been following several trials including Ms Tymoshenko’s, recorded several serious violations of fundamental legal principles in direct contradiction of common European values. Such a damning conclusion by such an esteemed observer should give us pause for thought and concern. Moreover, as friends of the Ukrainian authorities and as advocates of their EU integration, we have an obligation to tell them when their actions are incompatible with their ambitions. It is regrettable that, so far, our clear and repeated expressions of concern appear to have fallen on deaf ears.

It is worth stressing that point: the Government wish Ukraine well. We wish to see the country develop, play a full part in Europe and have a positive relationship with the European Union on many different bases—culture, commerce, educational collaboration and politics. However, all that depends on Ukraine’s improving its basic civic processes. We are keen to make those points clear to Ukraine. We are frustrated that, given those points were made in a spirit of friendship and in wishing the best for Ukraine, we have not so far managed to make more progress in convincing many people in Ukraine that that is the best way forward for their country.

There can be no doubt about the UK’s position. Only a few weeks ago, on 12 October, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister told the House that

“the treatment of Miss Tymoshenko…is absolutely disgraceful. The Ukrainians need to know that if they leave the situation as it is, it will severely affect their relationship not only with the UK, but with the European Union and NATO.”—[Official Report, 12 October 2011; Vol. 533, c. 329.]

Ukraine tells us that it wants to join the European Union one day. The UK continues to support that objective. We remain enthusiastic about further enlargement of the EU to the east, if the criteria are right and the circumstances are correct. However, that cannot happen until Ukraine shows that it adheres to the highest democratic standards, including respect for human rights, the rule of law and an independent, transparent and fair judicial process. The conviction of Ms Tymoshenko and the ongoing cases against other former members of the Government call into question Ukraine’s commitment to those values, and could pose a major obstacle to the signature and ratification of the association agreement, and the deep and comprehensive free trade agreement with the EU.

It is right to stress, not least because the EU has been the subject of some debate here in the UK in recent weeks, that those core values, to which member states are required to subscribe as a condition of membership of the EU, offer us and others a powerful lever for raising standards across the continent as a whole and persuading aspirant members of the desirability of advancing in a way that means that they meet the standards that we, in this country, often take for granted.

What exactly has to happen for us to be able to continue to support Ukraine’s integration with the EU? The UK, along with our EU partners, wants to see all Opposition leaders, who have been detained on the basis of flawed trials, freed and able to participate in the political process, including in next year’s parliamentary elections. Ukraine needs to show the political will to move towards joining the European club by embracing—not just in words, but deeds—the EU’s values. The challenge facing the Ukrainian authorities is therefore clear, and we very much want to make that explicit to them.

Arising from this debate and from our wider diplomacy, I hope that there will be no ambiguity about the position of not just the British Government, but the British Parliament and British society. In these debates, I am always struck by how much agreement there is and how much all of us in this House, who may have differences of opinion on domestic political issues and occasionally on international political issues, nevertheless share the core principles and values of democracy and civic society that are embodied in how we practise politics in this country, and are happily embodied in European Union. We wish to see them practised more widely still, including in other European countries that are not—or at least not yet, in some cases—in the European Union.

Some might ask why we should remain so open to Ukraine when we have imposed sanctions on Belarus, for example, for detaining Opposition leaders. The Government’s view is that Ukraine is in a very different category from Belarus. While we are bitterly disappointed by recent developments, Ukraine remains among the most democratic states in the Commonwealth of Independent States. Belarus, by contrast, is one of the most repressive countries not just in Europe, but in the world. We remain convinced that the association agreement and the deep and comprehensive free trade agreement represent the best opportunity to embed democracy in Ukraine, transform its economy and contribute to long-term stability and prosperity in Europe. It is the Government’s strategy to have that engagement—not to regard Ukraine as beyond the pale, but to demonstrate the criteria it needs to fulfil and the progress it needs to make to become a mainstream and successful European country.

We are making those points in concert with our EU partners. The Government’s main objective is to encourage Ukraine to take the steps necessary for European integration, and to speak frankly and critically when necessary while underlining that adhering to the core EU values of democracy, fundamental freedoms and the rule of law is a prerequisite for closer association. Let me emphasise the next point so that there is no mistake either here, or for anybody in Ukraine who chooses to read the transcript of this debate: as far as the UK is concerned, the core principles of democracy, fundamental freedoms and the rule of law are non-negotiable. They are not a point on which we can seek to reach a halfway house with Ukraine. The EU-Ukraine summit in December will be an important opportunity for the Government to make that position clear, and we intend to do so.

We firmly believe that we should proceed with the initialisation of the association agreement, indicating that negotiations have been concluded and locking in almost four years of hard work. However, we should make it clear that formal signature by the EU and member state Governments, followed by ratification by the European and member state Parliaments, will be jeopardised without a satisfactory resolution of politically motivated trials and convictions. I urge the Ukrainian authorities to reflect on that point.

[Helen Goodman]

Why should the association agreement be initialised? One way to proceed would be for us to say, “Well, this has happened; now we are going to put the brakes on”, rather than saying, “Well, we will sign this thing in a month’s time and then there is a whole year for Ukraine to make adjustments”. Why is the Minister not going down that route?

[Mr Browne]

My understanding is that the judgment being made is, given that four years has been spent in trying to bring to a head this body of work, it would make sense to consolidate it at this stage. However, that does not commit us, as a Government or as a country, to proceeding through to ratification either here in Parliament or at European level. There is no commitment with which we are then obliged to follow through, if that initialisation is completed.

This is not about backing Ukraine into a corner; it is about reiterating those core democratic EU values that Ukraine has adopted in part, and which underpin integration with the EU. That is the same process of integration that the Ukrainian authorities tell us is their strategic objective. President Yanukovych came to power promising to make Ukraine

“a modern and dynamic country”—

and he has consistently identified EU integration as his No.1 priority. The majority of his people support him in that ambition. The UK and our EU partners have explained to Ukraine what it needs to do to make integration with the EU a reality. The door remains open. We wish to make it clear to Ukraine that the door remains open and we will not slam it at this stage in proceedings, to answer the hon. Lady’s question further. It is for Ukraine to decide whether it wishes to commit to EU standards and cross the threshold. The Government hope that it will decide to do precisely that.

Cruise Ship Safety

Tuesday 1st November 2011 Westminster Hall

13:29

[Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)]

In March this year, a constituent of mine, 24-year-old Rebecca Coriam, disappeared while working for a British employment agency on a Bahamian-registered, American-based, Disney cruise ship in international waters off the coast of Mexico. Rebecca was living her dream, working as a member of the youth staff on the cruise ship, Disney Wonder, which was cruising out of Los Angeles on a seven-day cruise along the Mexican coast. Rebecca was last seen shortly before dawn on 22 March. She failed to report to work at 9 am and the alarm was raised shortly afterwards. The crew initiated a search of the ship, and she was listed as missing at sea. While the Disney Wonder sailed on to her next destination, the Mexican coastguard searched the waters behind the ship and found nothing. The Disney Wonder is registered in the Bahamas and, under international maritime law, it is the responsibility of the Bahamas Maritime Authority to investigate Rebecca’s disappearance. Despite an ongoing investigation of more than seven months, Rebecca’s family are still awaiting news of what happened to their daughter.

The reason for calling the debate is the recognition that while international maritime law requires cruise ships to take every possible measure to provide safe passage, those measures are often ambiguous and are incorporated into UK and international law through a variety of legislation. When something goes wrong at sea, it is frequently impossible to establish responsibility and to ensure a thorough investigation. Victims are often left without protection, without support and with little prospect of securing justice.

Cruising is now one of Britain’s favourite holidays, with around one in nine package holidays being cruise vacations. The number of people cruising has doubled in the past 10 years, including around 1.62 million British people last year. Despite the global recession, the UK cruise industry expects to reach a total of 2 million passengers by 2014. Cruising also has the massively beneficial effect of bringing tourists to the UK. In 2010, a record 116 ships visited 47 UK ports from 53 different cruise lines, bringing 541,000 visitors to the UK. Those figures are more than double those recorded as recently as for 2003. Yet how many of those holidaymakers, passengers and crew realise that, if something goes wrong on their ship, they may be almost totally unprotected?

The first issue with incidents at sea is that national jurisdiction extends only so far beyond a nation’s border. Once a ship is more than 24 miles from any coastline, it is on the high seas, in international waters, and the law of that ship is then the law of the country whose flag it flies and responsibility for crimes on board the ship lies with the legal authority of that country. That in itself creates a number of problems, because, to avoid stringent safety rules and regulations and for tax purposes, many cruise companies register their ships in countries with little affiliation to the actual operation of their company. For example, nine of the largest cruise companies operating in the UK, which regularly carry hundreds of thousands of British citizens every year, have a total fleet of 93 cruise ships: 42 are registered in the Bahamas, 25 in Bermuda, 15 in Panama, four in Malta and one each in Cyprus, Italy, Ecuador and Liberia. As for the three remaining ships, when preparing for the debate, I could not track down in which country they were registered.

In Rebecca’s case, the Disney Wonder cruise ship was registered in the Bahamas. If I briefly describe the investigation that took place into Rebecca’s disappearance, it will become obvious why I have serious concerns about the protection of British citizens while at sea. One officer from the Bahamas Maritime Authority boarded the ship—one officer, three days after Rebecca’s disappearance, for a ship with a capacity of 2,700 passengers and 950 crew. Little formal questioning of the ship’s crew or passengers occurred, little effort was made to gather or secure evidence and little if any forensic investigation took place on board. After seven months, Rebecca’s family are still awaiting news of what happened to their daughter. How could we have allowed that to happen to a British citizen? We have the disappearance of a young Englishwoman, hired by an English corporation to sail on a cruise ship out of a US port, and yet not a single British or American police or forensic team went on board the cruise ship in the days following her disappearance.

Contrary to that pitiful investigation, however, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office website, under “Travel & living abroad” then “Cruise ship passengers”, states:

“Significant crimes against British nationals on any ship can in certain circumstances be reported to UK police and may be investigated even though they occurred outside the territory of the UK.

A crime may also be reported to the authorities in the port/country in which the ship was docked (or was headed) when the crime was committed with the result that local law enforcement agencies may also be involved in the investigation”,

yet only one officer from an authority that is internationally recognised as almost toothless investigated the disappearance of a British citizen. In my opinion, that is appalling.

I myself am an enthusiastic cruiser, and I do not intend to berate the British cruise industry. I like to think of myself as someone who pays attention to detail when taking my family abroad, and yet before I was approached by the Coriam family in March of this year, I had no idea, if anything happened to me or my family on board a cruise ship, that the UK authorities or even the authorities in the countries that we were visiting would be impotent to help me seek justice. The Minister must acknowledge that the risks associated with the practice of flagging ships in obscure countries, such as the Bahamas, Panama, Liberia or Ecuador, are unknown to the vast majority of those 1.6 million British citizens who cruise each year. Passengers must be made aware of the jurisdiction that they will be sailing under before they book a cruise holiday and of the potential downsides of sailing under a flag of convenience.

If people go on holiday to the Bahamas and something happens to them, they expect it to be investigated by the Bahamian police. If people were to fly from London to Hong Kong in an aircraft, they would quite rightly not expect the Bahamian police to investigate a crime that happened on board. For crimes in the air, because of the Tokyo convention of 1963, the country of landing has jurisdiction. Similarly, if people go on a cruise ship owned by a US company sailing off the coast of Mexico, they do not expect to be totally reliant on the Bahamian police. If airlines can sort out the problem of jurisdiction through the Tokyo convention, why cannot cruise ships? Rebecca’s case highlights the urgent need for greater clarity of jurisdiction if we are to sufficiently and swiftly seek justice on behalf of British citizens.

I want to make it clear that not only cases of missing people must be considered when discussing crimes at sea. Violence, theft and sexual assault also occur on cruise liners, and investigations are often as fruitless as in the cases of missing persons. There are no centrally collated records of crimes at sea. In fact, many cruise ships are not even required to keep their own logbook of incidents on board. It is not unsurprising that cruise ships and cruise companies do not publish the number of offences that occur on board, and only by trawling through international records and news reports and through contacts with victims and their families can campaign groups such as the International Cruise Victims association and Victim Support collate figures. International Cruise Victims states that at least 165 people have gone missing at sea since 1995, with at least 19 so far this year alone.

Sexual crime on board cruise ships is also a problem. Incidents of sexual assault and sexual victimisation are significantly more common on board cruise ships than on land. The south Florida newspaper, the Sun Sentinel, obtained copies of FBI reports of serious crimes on board cruise ships between December 2007 and October 2008. The sexual assault and sexual contact reports from just one ship, the Carnival Valor, which is registered in Panama, indicates the possible scale of the problem: 15 January 2008, female passenger victim; 21 January, female passenger victim; 6 March, female passenger victim; 21 March, 16-year-old female victim; 24 March, female crew victim; 8 June, female crew victim; 13 June, 16-year-old female victim; 9 September, female crew victim; 17 September, female passenger victim. Just one ship in less than one year reported nine sexual assaults and sexual contacts to the FBI.

Improving the prevention and investigation of crimes at sea needs a twofold approach, which includes tightening safety regulations governing cruise ships and clarifying international co-operation when investigating crimes. Last year in the United States, President Obama signed into law the Cruise Vessel Security and Safety Act 2010, which is designed to increase security, law enforcement and accountability on cruise ships in international waters and for ships that visit US ports. I urge the Minister to consider implementing a similar Act in the UK. Bringing together the variety of laws that currently govern cruise ships into one concise and comprehensive set of regulations would go some way to improving the safety of cruise ships. However, that is only the tip of the iceberg.

The Minister will doubtless tell us about the extremely high standards that pertain to ships flying the red ensign, and he will be totally right. However, by the end of this year there will be no cruise ships registered in the UK. The last three ships—the three Cunard Queens—have re-registered in Bermuda in the past few days. He will also tell us about the high standards imposed on ships registered in Crown dependencies, and he will be right about that, too. I am sure that he will also tell us about the high standards that the UK imposes on cruise ships that dock in the UK, about which he will also be right. However, the vast majority of British cruise passengers sail ships registered in different jurisdictions, which might be the Bahamas, Panama or Liberia. The majority of British cruises now sail from ports outside the UK, of which there were almost 1 million in the past year alone.

When it comes to crime against British subjects on ships registered with a flag of convenience from ports outside the UK, British nationals such as Rebecca can be almost alone and unprotected if they are the victim of crime. They may not even be aware of that until it is too late. It is vital that passengers be made aware of the jurisdiction they will be sailing under before they book a cruise holiday, and they must be made aware of the potential downsides of sailing under a flag of convenience.

It is also imperative for the UK authorities to take greater responsibility for investigating crimes against UK nationals that occur on the high seas. I urge the Minister to work with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to co-ordinate with the International Maritime Organisation and with international law enforcement agencies such as Interpol to help synchronise a more coherent structure for criminal investigations in international waters and on ships flying flags of convenience.

More needs to be done to safeguard British citizens on cruise ships. I hope that the Minister and his Department will take on board these concerns and ensure that action is taken to do just that.

13:43

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mike Penning)]

It is a pleasure to serve for the first time under your chairmanship, Mrs Riordan. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester (Stephen Mosley) on securing this debate. He will acknowledge that I have met Rebecca’s family, and I have made promises, which I will keep.

I pay tribute to Rebecca’s family. They have had a tragic loss, which has been exacerbated by not knowing what actually happened to her. However, that has not stopped them campaigning for justice for Rebecca and for other victims in not only cruise ships but the whole maritime fleet.

Cruising is a boom industry; it is popular. My hon. Friend mentioned the figures: 1.7 million Brits went on a cruise this year, and the figure is 20 million around the world. The vast majority of them have cruised in safety, although I accept my hon. Friend’s point. The figure of 1.7 million is due to rise to 2 million in the next three to four years. We must not be complacent. There are things that we as a nation have control over and things over which we have no control. Sadly, Cunard has recently announced that the three Queens have been re-flagged outside the UK. Weddings were a particular issue for cruise lines. I got married in an old-fashioned church, but these days people want to get married in myriad different places, including on cruise ships. Under British law, people cannot get married on a British ship, but I will amend the legislation as soon as I can so that people will be able to marry on board a ship. Weddings can be held in many different places in this country, but not on a British ship, which is ludicrous.

There is no doubt that the infraction proceedings and the mess I inherited from the previous Administration on differential pay has meant that we are having some ships flag away. That is very sad, and I have done everything possible to help, but the blame lies firmly with the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers and the Nautilus union. They took the British Government to the European Commission for not implementing legislation. I hope that they have seen the error of their ways, because we are now seeing British jobs and British ships being flagged abroad.

I am sure that my hon. Friend will agree that crime takes place not only on cruise liners, but in merchant fleets around the world. One of the most serious crimes, rape, has taken place, and has clearly not been investigated properly. Cases of missing persons, as in the case of Rebecca, have also not been properly investigated. The simple truth is that the country in which the vessel was flagged is not capable of doing the sort of investigation that we and Rebecca’s family would like. As far as I can work out, it did hardly anything; it was very half-hearted. I am sure that Disney is conscious of its image, but it was more interested in getting the ship back to sea than in investigating the case of the missing member of their crew.

I pay tribute to Rebecca’s family and the dignity that they have shown. I made promises about what I could do immediately, which included writing to the Bahamian authorities and asking them to inform me exactly where the investigating was going. I also instructed the marine accident investigation branch to register the UK as a substantially interested body. I have instructed the branch to register a substantial interest in every case where there is a British citizen involved on any ship anywhere in the world. That is a significant move. It is not something that we had been planning on doing, but this particular case has opened our eyes as a country. We are using the skills of the marine accident investigation branch, which is world-renowned. If a British citizen happens to be on holiday on a cruise liner—not on a beach—they should get the protection that we would normally expect from a British Government.

We have also been supportive of the Cheshire police, to whom I pay tribute. They have taken on the mantel and been heavily involved, but they have been frustrated by the way the case has been handled. We and the Foreign Office will continue to support them in the ongoing investigations.

Last year, I attended a conference of red ensign Crown dependencies in Jersey—I am the Minister responsible for the red ensign not only in the UK but in other Crown dependencies. I stated that flag states have a detailed, moral and ethical responsibility towards those who travel on their flagged ships; I do not think that point has been highlighted in that way, and I shall continue to emphasise it. At the conference, a senior police officer made exactly the same point as that raised by Rebecca’s family and my hon. Friend. Who takes responsibility for an investigation into something that did not happen on a flagged ship? That is a difficult question, and we have had many meetings to look at where the responsibility lies.

My hon. Friend alluded to the Americans and, like me, President Obama is in an interesting position. Although I have a large number of flagged vessels, I do not have any cruise ships under me, and neither does President Obama. When we talk to the rest of the international community about how to join investigations together and be taken seriously, we must be careful not to preach to people about things for which we are not responsible in the same way. As I am sure my hon. Friend knows, the American flagged fleet is small and insignificant in world terms, which is unusual for such a huge nation. That is because many years ago, America flagged off many of its ships to Panama and the Marshall Islands for political reasons. We must not be hypocritical in telling countries what they should do when we do not have responsibility for cruise ships.

As I stated earlier, however, this issue goes beyond cruise liners. It is crucial that people feel safe on a ship, whether they are at work or travelling for leisure, and whether they are on a cruise liner or, speaking more loosely, a cargo freighter going round the coast on a regular basis. The issue is also crucial for women—I will be slightly sexist on this point—because historically women did not serve on ships in the way they do today. I have had the pleasure of presenting the cadet of the year award for the past two years—I have managed to survive that long in this job—and each time the merchant navy cadet of the year was a lady. That shows where the industry is going, and the skills and expertise that women can bring to it. At the same time, however, women need to be protected. Sadly, I have read about an instance of a female crew member who was raped. The incident was not investigated properly and was followed by a suicide. That did not happen in our territorial waters, but that is not the point. Such things do happen.

I promised Rebecca’s family that I would do everything I can to help, and that I would go to the top when looking at international responsibility. The International Maritime Organisation is based just across the river in a Department for Transport building—my colleagues will love my mentioning that—which is the only United Nations establishment in the United Kingdom. As promised, I wrote to the IMO’s outgoing secretary-general detailing not only Rebecca’s case but the other cases that we have heard about. I had a follow-up meeting with the secretary-general and his officials, together with the incoming secretary-general from Japan, who will take over in the new year. That meeting was very positive and unlike in previous attempts by the US, we appear to have started to pull a consensus together.

The IMO safety committee agreed guidelines previously at the 89th committee, and we will table a motion, to which I hope other member states will agree, asking the security council within the committee to look formally at the whole issue on an international basis. That will not, of course, take away from the responsibilities of individual member or flag states within their territorial waters, but it will start to implement a correct procedure for events that occur on what we commonly call the high seas. That is hugely important to Rebecca’s family and others who, in many ways, have had their lives destroyed by events on the sea.

The international community can no longer ignore its responsibility to ask, through the IMO, how we can better deal with such situations. Countries used as flags of convenience—for want of a better word—need to cope with the investigations that are necessary when certain events happen, as sadly we know they will. Some of the ships are like small towns; the largest has 7,000 guests and 2,000 crew members. That is bigger than many of the towns we represent; it is like two wards in my constituency, all on one ship. When there is such a cramming together, there will be good and bad people there, just as in any other society.

People go on holiday, just as I did as a young man when I went to Benidorm all those years ago. They want to have a good time, but others spoil it for them. That happens, and there are criminals in our society. If someone rapes, they are a criminal; if they are involved in crime on a ship, no matter where in the world, they are a criminal. It is therefore important to pull together and look at how to address the situation. The crux of my hon. Friend’s argument is that where we do not have responsibility for the ship and the flag nation is not capable of addressing its responsibilities, we must look at how the international community can pull together.

I passionately believe that we have some of the greatest police authorities in the world. The Association of Chief Police Officers has shared guidance on best practice, which is used extensively around the world. My hon. Friend will probably agree that we also need to name and shame some of those cruise operators that do not take their responsibilities—for want of a better word—as carefully as they should.

We must not, however, denigrate all ship companies. I have a cutting in front of me from the Evening Standard. It mentions a P&O-registered ship that had a man overboard the other night in the middle of the Atlantic ocean. A passenger saw what they thought was someone in the water and raised the alarm. The ship dispensed three lifeboats and many lifebuoys, made a complete U-turn and—miracle of miracles—the man was pulled out alive. I think that P&O should be praised, and particularly the captain of the ship involved, the Ventura. The ship obviously had a code of best practice and a set of skills in place so that it could respond to such an event.

I have also heard of instances where a ship has hit a trawler in the English channel and a fisherman has died. The ship knew it had hit someone, but carried on. Those are two extremes in an industry that is expanding not only because there are a greater number of cruise ships, but because of the sheer size of the ships to which our ports now have to adapt. The largest ship in the world, the Emma Maersk, can function with a crew of 13 or 14 people. How can they respond to certain situations?

We must also not take away from the responsibilities of the one person who I have not yet mentioned—the captain of the ship. The captain of a ship on the high seas is the sole person responsible for the ship. If the ship is flagged by any country, including the UK, that country also has responsibility, as does the international community.

We have fulfilled the promises I made to Rebecca’s family in my office a few weeks ago, but we will not be complacent in any shape or form. We will push on. There is an IMO conference in London later this month. There are some indications that, as I hope, our proposals will be supported, and we can show the rest of the world that, yet again, the UK is leading in safety on the high seas.

Question put and agreed to.

13:59

Sitting adjourned.