UK Relations: Libya

Bob Stewart Excerpts

Tuesday 1st November 2011 Westminster Hall

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I very much agree with my hon. Friend.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

At the point of capture, it is difficult to control forces that were not particularly under control in the first place; the testosterone is flowing. People probably just wanted to get rid of Gaddafi there and then. I do not blame those soldiers who killed Gaddafi. Like my hon. Friend, I regret it, but I understand exactly what was going on. They were in the height of battle, their testosterone was flowing, and they just went for it and killed him, because he was the tyrant.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I agree. In fact, my understanding is that one of the people involved in his death was from Misrata, and his sister had been raped by Libyan soldiers loyal to Colonel Gaddafi, so I concur with my hon. Friend.

To return to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon), I have tabled an early-day motion on the issue, calling on the Government of Niger to respect international law and acquiesce in ensuring that the relevant members of the Gaddafi clan—up to 30 loyalists are allegedly in Niger—are extradited to the International Court of Justice at The Hague. My first question to the Minister is this: what discussions is his Department having with the Government of Niger—and with the Governments of Mali and Algeria, where other Gaddafi loyalists are said to be seeking sanctuary? The most important of those loyalists is, of course, Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, who apparently is hovering somewhere around the Libya-Niger border. I hope that that man will not be killed. I would like him to be brought to justice in the Court at The Hague, and would like to hear what the Minister is doing to interact with the Government of Niger, and others, to achieve that.

[Bob Stewart]

I apologise for making a second intervention, but I have given evidence in five trials at The Hague, and the writ of the International Criminal Court runs only when a national jurisdiction has indicated that it has no intention of trying individuals who have committed war crimes in its territory. I should like the Gaddafi family and their supporters to go back to Libya. There will be a problem, because of the death penalty, but that is what I should like, because it is how the Court should work. A national jurisdiction tries those in question first, and if that does not work, they go to The Hague. I would prefer those people to go back to Tripoli.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

That is an interesting point, and the Minister will have to deal with the Government’s position on that. Do we want those people sent to The Hague, or should they go to Libya? I defer to the experience of my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) in those matters.

I am very supportive of the national transitional council, but I am deeply concerned—I feel passionate about it—that there has been no plebiscite. No referendum has been announced on the sort of constitution that the country will have. We have been told that there will be parliamentary elections in eight months’ time, and presidential elections in 18 months. I am extremely concerned that the NTC has already unilaterally decided to state that there will be presidential elections. I think that the last thing the Libyan people want is another Head of State who is a politician. They need to be consulted, so that they can decide what sort of constitution they want. I think that they want a unifying figure: someone who commands respect throughout the country, who is untainted by any previous association with the Gaddafi regime, and who can bring the whole country together in a unifying way. I am not embarrassed to put those issues forward; I do not flinch from doing so. Yes, it is a matter for the Libyan people, but our country has put our service personnel’s lives at risk, and we have a right to advise and caution the NTC in that regard.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

Yes. The hon. Gentleman makes a good point; there are allegations of atrocities on both sides. My hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham talked about testosterone and the desire to take revenge, and we have heard that serious human rights violations and massacres have taken place, such as the shooting of up to 50 Gaddafi loyalists with their hands tied behind their backs in Sirte. The hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) raises an important point, and I would like to hear from the Minister what the Government’s attitude is to ensuring that people are brought to justice.

I believe that the unifying figure who is untainted by Gaddafi and who commands respect in Libya is Crown Prince Mohammed, the heir to the Libyan throne. I have had the great honour and privilege of meeting him; he has lived in London since Gaddafi exiled him and his father from Libya. Gaddafi burned their house down in front of them and then banished them, and they have lived in London ever since. Crown Prince Mohammed’s father subsequently died, but His Royal Highness continues to live in London. Having met him on numerous occasions, I consider him to be, if I may say so, a friend. He is a tremendous counsellor, and I respect him greatly. I have met many leaders around the world in the past six years, but few of them have impressed me as much as Crown Prince Mohammed.

A few weeks ago, I raised directly with the Prime Minister how important it is for him, or at least one of his aides, to meet Crown Prince Mohammed to seek his guidance and views. Foreign Office officials have met Crown Prince Mohammed, but to my knowledge no Foreign Office Minister has yet met him, which I am concerned about. I understand that the Foreign Office does not want to be seen to be manipulating the situation in Tripoli—of course it is for the Libyan people to make decisions—but a member of the el-Senussi family who has extraordinary respect in his own country is living in London; the least the Foreign Office can do is engage with him effectively and properly and find out from him what is happening on the streets of Libya.

The Foreign Office will of course be told a lot by the national transitional council about what the council wants the Foreign Office to know, but I am hearing from Libya—from town councils and the people on the streets of Tobruk, Benghazi and other cities—that many people are holding exhibitions about the history of Libya, which is something that they were deprived of under Gaddafi. Many people are holding exhibitions about the royal family, the late King Idris and Crown Prince Mohammed.

The Foreign Office must be careful. Having spent so much taxpayer money on pursuing the liberation of Libya, we want to ensure that the Libyan people are consulted, and that their will comes through. If they wish to have a constitutional monarchy, as I believe they do, that should be put to them in a referendum, so that they can decide of their own accord, rather than the unelected NTC unilaterally deciding that the Libyan people should have a politician as their Head of State in perpetuity.

[Bob Stewart]

I, too, have met Crown Prince Mohammed, although he is not as big a friend to me as he is to my hon. Friend. I know that Crown Prince Mohammed has had contact with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, so it is fully aware of the situation. I subscribe totally to my hon. Friend’s contention that there should be a general election before a presidential one, and I, too, would like someone such as Crown Prince Mohammed to become Libya’s Head of State. However, it cannot be done just like that; the Libyan people have to ask for it. That is fair.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I agree with my hon. Friend, but after 42 years of absolute and tyrannical despotism, it is not unreasonable to have a referendum or plebiscite. Let the people decide. Give them the options. We in this country had a ludicrous referendum on changing the voting system, which I was furious about, as chairman of the all-party group for the promotion of first past the post.

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[Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD)]

Thank you very much, Mr Gray, for calling me to speak. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) on securing this timely debate. In introducing it, he once again showed his expertise and personal experience, and we are indeed lucky to have him. He set out a compelling account of some of the legacy issues involved in the future of Libya, and he raised other important issues.

As we know, a week ago on 23 October the national transitional council of Libya celebrated the country’s new-found and hard-fought independence. That marked the end of the first chapter in a new story for Libya. Back in March, I welcomed UN Security Council resolutions 1970 and 1973, as well as NATO’s Operation Unified Protector. It was my view then, and it remains my view today, that we could not have stood by and watched the inevitable bloody reprisals of a despotic regime. We were right to take action, and we were right to do so with the clear backing of international law and indeed of neighbouring countries.

Like my hon. Friend, I commend our forces, who stood in harm’s way in the long tradition of our military’s fight against tyranny. However, the success that should be praised above all, as my hon. Friend so eloquently put it, belongs to the Libyan people who rose up, defied a dictator and seized control of their own destiny. They are doubly brave, because they have not only thrown off the shackles of the Gaddafi state but embarked on the long and arduous journey towards a free and democratic society of their own choosing.

As we have seen in other countries during the Arab spring, and indeed as we have seen throughout history, democracy is a long and hard journey, and it is not a quick or close destination. Like the people of every democracy, including the British people, the Libyans have much work to do, and we must help them whenever they ask for it. Securing the future of Libya must now be a priority for Her Majesty’s Government.

Since the end of the conflict, we have seen swift action by the Department for International Development to put in place a programme of humanitarian aid. That work builds on DFID’s success during the conflict in providing much needed aid on the ground in Libya—at the borders and inside the Libyan border—to help those who needed help most. DFID’s work has been seamless with the work of other organisations, such as the World Health Organisation, the International Organisation for Migration and the International Committee of the Red Cross. It is right that DFID continues to play a leading role in the stabilisation and reconstruction efforts in Libya.

As we know, the national transitional council itself has called for a continuing NATO military presence in the region. I, like many others in the House, welcomed the end of NATO military operations in Libya at midnight last night, but we must be prepared to offer assistance if the need for it arises. Consequently, I welcome the recent visit of the Chief of the Defence Staff to the Doha conference on Libya and the support that he offered to the national transitional council, in terms of assistance with specific capability requests for military support as Libya makes its transition to democracy.

With the end of military operations and the return to relative peace and normality, a new and exciting chapter in Libyan history is beginning. It is my view that Britain must build on the work that we have started with the Libyans—for example, we are already providing support for policing. I commend the work of the stabilisation unit to date, and I hope that the Minister will give assurances that it will be properly resourced in the future. We must continue to help to build the institutions of a civil society and to promote the rule of law.

It is vital that the relevant Departments of the UK Government involved in all areas of reconstruction, assistance, enterprise and business work together in a co-ordinated fashion to achieve the optimum results in the shortest possible time. Unco-ordinated efforts run the risk of duplicating work, wasting resources and hampering the emergence of a well-defined, strong and confident Libya.

We should also be working with other countries involved in the reconstruction of Libya, particularly our NATO partners. It would be nonsense if we succeeded in working together to protect the Libyan people in war but were unable to help them coherently in peace.

[Bob Stewart]

The most important matter that must be addressed by those in authority in Libya is ensuring the security and well-being of the Libyan people. Unless those aims are achieved and unless they remain a constant focus, we run the risk of other, less scrupulous people seizing power in Libya. Also, I totally accept the hon. Gentleman’s point that we could put British military teams into Libya to help to train the Libyan armed forces.

[Stephen Gilbert]

The hon. Gentleman has made my point far more eloquently than me. He has also pre-empted a point that I will come on to later, which is the deweaponisation of Libya.

Overall, we need to see clear direction on the relative importance of the bilateral support to Libyan efforts. At the moment, DFID is ramping up its efforts in Libya, while the Ministry of Defence is scaling down its efforts. If we are to remain engaged in an integrated way, all Departments need to be at the table, and we need clarity from the Government about our overall objectives. How active will we be, Minister? What is good enough in terms of the peace-building effort? And is our main focus going to be trade, governance, stability or all those issues?

An example of the current confusion is the potential divergence between the DFID-led public safety efforts, which my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham has mentioned, and the MOD’s interest in the security architecture. Unless Her Majesty’s Government know what they are trying to achieve collectively in Libya, it will be hard to determine where the various pieces of the jigsaw fit together.

It is important that we are realistic about what the UN and the EU can and cannot do, and what they will and will not do, in Libya. At present, far too many assumptions are being made in Whitehall that the UN will deliver everything that we want it to deliver in the time frames required. It will not do that, particularly within the security sector. Bilateral engagement with Libya by the UK and our NATO allies will be required, but with a view to bringing in the UN, where possible and as soon as possible.

In seeking to aid Libya in its transition, we must also be mindful of how our actions are seen. We should only seek to help Libyan people at their own behest. All our stabilisation efforts must be owned by the local communities. We must never impose, nor appear to be imposing, our systems, beliefs, culture or demands upon the Libyan people. If there is to be a successful transition in Libya to a strong democratic state, it must be a transition that the Libyans themselves have decided upon. Only then will it become entrenched and real.

Of paramount importance in post-war Libya is ensuring that the very weapons used to free the people do not remain in the country long enough to enslave them once again. When a country is awash with small arms, it is at risk of descending into sectarianism, vigilantism and terror. We are already helping the national transitional council in seeking the dangerous weapons that were stockpiled by Gaddafi, and DFID is already helping with demining projects, but we must go further and encourage a much wider demilitarisation of Libya and its people.

Economically, relations between the UK and the new Libya should now move towards development support and enterprise opportunity. In order to prosper fully, Libya will require serious investment and expertise. To that end, I welcome my hon. Friend’s suggestion that there should be an insurance scheme to protect British businesses as they venture into Libya to set up operations.

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[Robert Halfon]

I thank my hon. Friend. Being British, I blush at such compliments. I do not want this to turn into a mutual love-in.

Yesterday marked the end of British military involvement in Libya, seven months after the no-fly zone was authorised, and I would argue that it was one of the most successful NATO operations in history. It proved, all the more importantly after the Iraq conflict, that intervention can work and that Britain can fight for peace and democracy. Although I was disappointed at the manner of Gaddafi’s death because it would have been better for him to be tried in the international courts, I wish that my grandfather, Renato Halfon, was alive now to have seen his demise.

In 1968, after some anti-Jewish pogroms, my grandfather was forced to leave Libya and, as an Italian Jew, he went to Rome. He had planned to return to Tripoli once the pogroms had subsided, but Gaddafi took power in 1969 and all the Jewish businesses and my grandfather’s home were taken. The same thing happened to the Jews and the Italians. Luckily, my grandfather had sent my father to England some years earlier. I love Britain—I was born here and would not live anywhere else—but I feel a deep concoction of Jewish and Italian from Libya, which has been awakened by recent events. I listened with considerable interest to the story that my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham told about being in Poland, particularly the part about the oranges, and about what motivated him to fight for freedom in Libya.

It has been good to have conversations with my father and his friends from Libya to try to understand what it was like in those days. My grandfather had a clothing business and sold clothes to the British, and he always said that they were the only people who paid on time. He loved this country more than anything; he thought that the streets were metaphorically paved with gold and that everyone in England was a gentleman. It is worth remembering that King Idris was installed as monarch of Libya in 1951 by the British, in the aftermath of the war, when Libya gained independence from Italy and the old colonial name Tripolitania disappeared.

Although my grandfather and many other people had contempt for Gaddafi, we must acknowledge that in the early days the colonel was not a monster. My father remembers him becoming a rapidly popular figure, who before the coup used to walk down the famous Italian street in Tripoli, Corso Vittorio Emanuele—I think it is now called Jadat Istiklal—shaking hands with passers-by, including my father, wearing a broad serene smile and speaking loudly. He was articulate and nurtured dreams of pan-Arabism, and because of King Idris’s benign weakness, he became known as the liberator. Astonishing as it might seem, he was seen as sympathetic to western interests, and so the Americans, who controlled the large Wheelus air base outside Tripoli, did nothing to stop the coup d’état against the king. No one imagined that Gaddafi would become the monster he did and impose a 42-year totalitarian regime. Now he has gone, everyone is asking, “What next? Will it be a repeat of Iraq in the aftermath of the overthrow of Saddam Hussein?”

It is worth emphasising that a yearning for freedom is deep in every human breast and should be nurtured and supported. The Libyan people deserve freedom just as much as we do in the west. For years, the realist school of foreign policy—I am sure that the Minister is not of that school—has argued that the middle east is not ready for democracy and that democracy cannot be dropped from a B-52 bomber, but actually it can. The NATO planes showed that by providing cover as the rebels advanced on Tripoli, although that is not the only way to do it. We must remember that liberty is a human right for everyone, whatever their background or race. Sometimes it requires military intervention, and sometimes it requires hearts and minds—so-called soft power. Our foreign policy should be directed at supporting groups of resistance to dictators, and at funding radio and TV stations and the internet, in the same way as the CIA did in the cold war to try to combat communism. Where is the middle east equivalent of Radio Free Europe?

What is not required is appeasement. Appeasement often works in the short term but never in the long. The previous Government, as well as some of our universities and businesses, lost their moral bearings when it came to dealing with the Libyan regime. I happened to support Tony Blair and the invasion of Iraq, yet the complete contrast between that and what his Government did with Libya was astonishing. While senior new Labour Government figures hobnobbed with Gaddafi and his family, academic institutions accepted millions of pounds in blood money from the regime, and companies rushed to Libya to sign commercial deals. The London School of Economics, in perhaps the most shameful episode in the university’s history, went cap in hand to Gaddafi and treated him like some kind of king from over the water. I am glad that one of the professors implicated in that disgusting scandal resigned today, according to reports in The Times.

The leader of the Labour party talks about predator and producer capitalism, and I do not think there has been a more horrific example of predator corporate capitalism than the commercial dealings between the previous Government and so-called big business and the Libya regime. I do not say that to make a party political point; I just cannot get my head around how the previous Government could do some good things in Iraq but behave so disgracefully when it came to Libya. The release of the Lockerbie murderer, al-Megrahi, marked the low point of that kind of appeasement by the establishment, and I would argue that the political establishment’s flirtation with Gaddafi was akin to the appeasement of Hitler before the second world war by British upper-class aristocrats.

In having the courage to support intervention and ignore the armchair generals who said we could not or should not get involved, the Prime Minister did much to correct Britain’s moral compass, but I urge the Minister and the Government to launch a serious inquiry into the previous Government’s relations with Gaddafi. We must learn from what went wrong, so that we never, ever, do such a thing again with such an evil regime.

[Bob Stewart]

It was not so much the armchair generals. The armchair generals were right that we had no land forces that we could have put in. We did what we were able to do, which was to use our Air Force, but we certainly could not put troops on the ground, so the armchair generals and the Government were right to say that we could not do so.

[Robert Halfon]

I bow to my hon. Friend’s incredible experience in these matters, but I was not arguing about what kind of intervention it was. In fact, Britain has shouldered too heavy a burden, and other NATO countries should have done more. However, many so-called armchair generals argued against any intervention per se.

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[Ian Lucas]

It is important that we grasp the opportunity to contribute commercially, which means creating jobs in our own constituencies. We, as parliamentarians, have a responsibility to be outward-looking on occasions such as this. Perhaps we should not focus purely on issues such as Europe, when big issues are happening around the world. We should look at the opportunities in Africa, China and beyond. It is important that, in these extraordinary times, we use the increasing communication with countries such as Libya for the benefit of our own constituents.

[Bob Stewart]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Ian Lucas]

I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, who has made a number of interesting contributions to this debate.

[Bob Stewart]

The business infrastructure in Libya is excellent, if we consider that it is in Africa. We should waste no opportunity to get in there again. I know that a number of companies are already there and that British companies have been kind of operating throughout the troubles over the past six months. I totally endorse what the hon. Gentleman has to say.

[Ian Lucas]

I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s contribution. There are opportunities in the commercial sphere. A number of organisations have been referred to, such as the British Council and the Westminster Foundation for Democracy, and I add the BBC World Service, which can make a positive contribution to building democracy in Libya. We have a huge opportunity.

I have not visited Libya, but it is extremely important and has massive potential. It is a neighbour of countries that are becoming increasingly important, such as Egypt. Will the Minister touch on how he sees those relationships within the new Mediterranean developing as we progress? We are in extraordinary times in north Africa and the middle east, because the changes are having profound effects on our relations and on the lives of and individual possibilities for the people of Libya.

We have long-established relationships with Libya, for many of the reasons that have been referred to in this debate. We should use those opportunities to assist the people of Libya, who must lead what happens. We must be prepared to stand ready to assist whenever we are asked. We have much to give.

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[Mr Browne]

The short answer is no. I have not had a clear indication, but I share the hon. Gentleman’s concern. If I can sum up the sentiment of the debate, I think we all feel uncomfortable about the manner of Gaddafi’s death, even if we do not lament his passing. I, and I am sure the whole House, hope that Libya’s future will be based on the rule of law, not reprisals. Although Colonel Gaddafi was the most high-profile Libyan, I hope that his death is not indicative of the state of justice and the construction of society in the new Libya that will unfold in the months and years ahead.

As well as resolving issues from Libya’s past, we will work closely with the new authorities on the issues critical to Libya’s future. Security is a key concern, even though the new authorities are making steady progress and police are returning to the streets. The national transitional council has planned for a proper police force and a national army that integrates many of the revolutionary forces. We are offering help in that process, including through the presence of a British policing adviser and with communications and logistics for the new police forces. We are helping the NTC to secure and disable man-portable air defence systems, and we are supporting mine clearance in Misrata, Benghazi and other affected areas. We will also offer technical advice to help with the destruction of remaining Libyan chemical weapons stocks under the auspices of the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons.

The Government are also working with the International Criminal Court in The Hague to pursue and bring to justice the remaining indictees, Saif al-Islam Gaddafi and Abdullah al-Senussi. We want to ensure that they are held accountable for violations of human rights and international humanitarian law, and for the attacks targeting the civilian population perpetrated by them. We are encouraging all Libya’s neighbours who are ICC state parties and have a legal obligation under the Rome statute to co-operate with the ICC, including on enforcing ICC arrest warrants should those individuals enter their territory. UN Security Council resolution 1970 urges all UN member states to support the ICC investigation and implement the arrest warrants. We are making that position very clear.

The UK has played a leading role throughout in responding to Libya’s humanitarian problems. We have provided support through the International Committee of the Red Cross and supplied surgical teams and medicines to treat up to 5,000 war-wounded patients. We have also brought 50 severely wounded Libyans to the UK and are providing treatment in the UK to another 50 Libyans who have suffered amputations during the conflict. UK medical experts are also working with Libyan medical staff and are training them in the care of those who have been brought to the UK, so that they can take that knowledge back to Libya and work with others who have suffered such terrible injuries in the fighting.

Women and young people have an important role to play in rebuilding Libya. We are engaging with women across different sections of Libyan society to determine how best to provide support. That includes looking at the issues that women face as a result of the conflict and how women can participate in developing a new Libya.

[Bob Stewart]

I shall make only one point. I suspect that the Minister will not mention the matter of Crown Prince Mohammed, but perhaps he could write to me and my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) about what exactly the Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s attitude is towards the Crown Prince, who seems a very decent man.

[Mr Browne]

I am grateful for that intervention. Let me make it clear: the British Government do not have a position on the ideal constitutional arrangement for the new Libya. That is a matter for the Libyan people to determine for themselves. There will be a referendum on the constitution of Libya. On the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham, there will be an opportunity for the Libyan people to express their support for the arrangement that is put before them.

Let me finish by talking about trade and commerce, which was raised by many contributors. Getting the economy running again in Libya is crucial to achieving political progress and stability. We are committed to helping the Libyan authorities build a strong and sustainable economy. Through UK Trade and Investment and our embassy in Tripoli, we are providing advice and assistance to British businesses, so that they are ready to compete for business opportunities now and in future, when the time is right for their business.

In late September, Lord Green, the Minister responsible for trade and investment visited Libya. He met senior leaders, who assured him that all legally obtained contracts would be honoured and new business welcomed. He discussed business prospects arising from the estimated $200 billion post-conflict reconstruction programme and, the day after his visit, Lord Green briefed more than 150 UK companies on how the Government planned to support their engagement in Libya. The Export Credits Guarantee Department has agreed to provide insurance cover for business deals up to a total of $250 million. That is an initial tranche of cover and it will be re-evaluated at regular intervals.

The Libyan people have now embarked on the transition to a pluralist and democratic society. Although we should not expect that that will always be a smooth path, the UK will continue to support Libya in that goal and in building a revitalised relationship between the United Kingdom and Libya that addresses past wrongs and lays the foundation for future progress. The NTC’s goals are ambitious, but already it has many times proved wrong those who underestimated it. We have confidence that it can continue to do so, and that a new bilateral relationship between Britain and Libya will bring greater benefits to the people of both our countries in future than at any point over the past four decades.