UK Relations: Libya

James Gray Excerpts

Tuesday 1st November 2011 Westminster Hall

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I agree with my hon. Friend, but after 42 years of absolute and tyrannical despotism, it is not unreasonable to have a referendum or plebiscite. Let the people decide. Give them the options. We in this country had a ludicrous referendum on changing the voting system, which I was furious about, as chairman of the all-party group for the promotion of first past the post.

[Mr James Gray (in the Chair)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman is straying off the subject.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

Sorry, Mr Gray. I had to get that one in; I could not resist. If we can have referendums on trivia such as changing the voting system, the people of Libya should be given the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to decide what constitution they want. I thank God that we have such a wonderful Head of State as Her Majesty. Some of the most stable countries in the world, such as Denmark, have monarchies. Interestingly, even in the Arab world, people have not rebelled or shown hostility to Governments in countries that have monarchies. I therefore think that monarchy is a stabilising factor.

I would like Niger to hand over Saif al-Islam and others associated with Gaddafi’s regime either to Libya, as my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham suggested, or the Court in The Hague. I want Saif al-Islam to be captured alive, and I hope that the Government will give me their perspective on that. Do they, too, want him captured alive, so that he can account for some of the crimes committed?

I would like the Government to help the Libyan authorities to find all the money stolen—the billions that have been squirreled away in vaults and bank accounts all over the world, from Liechtenstein to the Cayman Islands. Given the expertise that we have in our country, we should offer the Libyan Government some assistance. London is the financial capital of the world, and we can play a part in helping the Libyan authorities to find all the frozen and other assets that have hitherto not been traced.

One of the most important aspects of the matter is compensation for IRA victims. Colonel Gaddafi provided the IRA with Semtex for many years. I was slightly concerned to read a report in The Sunday Times last week that a private law firm was already asking the NTC to hand over £450 million in compensation. I have two concerns about that. First, that is unduly hasty. Although I am desperate for the families of IRA victims to receive compensation, it might be slightly too hasty to start asking for £450 million in compensation when Libya is practically on its knees, with limited electricity, water and other supplies, even though I would support such a request in the future.

Secondly—I shall emphasise this time and again—I certainly do not want a private law firm to be responsible for bilateral negotiations with the Libyan Government on compensation for IRA victims. It is not for a private law firm to undertake that huge job. I want every single penny piece of that money, when it is handed over, to go to the victims of IRA atrocities. I do not want a private law firm to get £1 million, £2 million, £10 million or £15 million—according to the various reports—of that money. Every single penny piece has to go to the victims. I have raised that point with the Prime Minister in a private meeting, and I expect to hear from the Foreign Office that it will take responsibility for the negotiations to ensure that the private law firm does not make any profit out of the case. We, the state, sacrificed hundreds of millions of pounds and put the lives of our service personnel at risk to liberate Libya, and it is for us to ensure that compensation goes to the victims of IRA atrocities. We do not want some private law firm dishing out the money and making the profits.

Christmas eve will mark the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Libya. I would love to attend the celebrations, but obviously I must be with my family at that time. I am sure that the Libyans would greatly appreciate it if somebody from the Foreign Office went to Tripoli to celebrate their 60th anniversary of freedom.

Will the Minister tell us what will happen about the prosecution of the killer of PC Yvonne Fletcher? Are we happy for this matter to be brought to justice in a Libyan court, or do we want the killer to be extradited to the United Kingdom? In the past, I have said that British justice could not be attained in a Libyan court under Gaddafi’s jurisdiction. During the Gaddafi regime, Scotland Yard had been going back and forth between Tripoli and the UK, and when it was close to getting its man, Gaddafi, in yet another game of cat and mouse, stopped issuing visas. However, things have changed, so I would be interested to hear what our line on that is.

When the new Secretary of State for Defence went to Libya, he said to British companies, “Pack your bags and come here to reconstruct Libya.” I totally agree with him; there are huge opportunities for British firms to help with the reconstruction of Libya. Will the Minister tell us what UK Trade & Investment is doing on that? I had the pleasure of meeting Lord Green, the head of UKTI, in the House of Commons recently, and he told me about some of the changes that he wants to put in place to make his organisation more effective. I would like to know exactly what is happening on the ground.

Many consultants have come to see me and have said, “Look, we have been tasked with finding various companies to do x, y and z in Libya, but we cannot find British companies to do it. The only companies that are prepared to do anything are Danish, Austrian or German, and we are desperate to find a British company to carry out the work.” British companies are hesitant about going to Libya because of security issues and other such matters. I very much regret that. We are the ones who go in and liberate the country, and then everyone else goes in and gets all the business. The British are rather circumspect about such things, but we cannot afford to be. We should not be embarrassed to go out there with our companies for the mutually beneficial reason of reconstructing the country. We must stop this British sentimentality. We must not think, “Oh no, we must not sully our fingers with the business aspects of this.”

--- Later in debate ---

[Daniel Kawczynski]

Many British businessmen coming back from Tripoli have alleged to me that they heard that Mr Blair personally benefited financially from various transactions with the Gaddafi regime—

[Mr James Gray (in the Chair)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman is stepping beyond the usual realms of courtesy in this place.

[Robert Halfon]

I have made my point about the previous Government’s appeasement of Gaddafi, which sets the context, but I understand what my hon. Friend has said.

Of course, getting rid of a tyrant does not mean that we have got rid of tyranny. The experience of much of Iraq shows that the first steps after dictatorship are incredibly important. NATO and western Governments must continue to nurture genuinely democratic forces in post-Gaddafi Libya and help to rebuild the country. Any prospect of extreme Islamists or al-Qaeda gaining ground must be ruthlessly crushed. However, the threat of Islamists should not be overstated. They are less prevalent in northern Africa than in the rest of the middle east. It may take a few years to achieve democracy, but that was also the case in Japan and Germany after the second world war.

I am vice-chairman of the all-party parliamentary group for the autonomous Kurdistan region in Iraq. That region sets a precedent for democracy. The Kurdish people suffered chemical genocide under Saddam Hussein and lived in terror under the Ba’athist regime. I have visited the region, and I have seen the democracy, the rule of law, the religious tolerance, the free press and the vigorous political opposition. It can be done, and the Libyan transitional national council must do the same.

The signs are encouraging. There are reports that the Libyan leader of the opposition invited the representative of Libyan Jews in the UK, Raphael Luzon, back to Tripoli to take part in the political process. Yesterday, I met Mr Luzon, who is a senior Jewish politician, in the House of Commons. He is known by the key people in the transitional council, who, he said yesterday, invited him back to work with the Government and perhaps stand for office, which is a very encouraging sign.

As we reopen our embassy in Tripoli, now is the time for the British Government to encourage the forces of liberalism in Libya. We should impress on the national transitional council interim Government that we stand with them against Islamic fundamentalists, and that we hope they will revive a good relationship with Christians, Jews and other minorities.

I also hope that the Foreign Office can help to obtain compensation for exiled Libyan Jews. Gaddafi’s law 57 of July 1970 gave the Libyan regime powers to seize the property of Jews who had fled after the pogroms of 1967 and before. Not a penny in compensation has been paid to dispossessed Libyan Jews or other victims of the Gaddafi family. As the country reconciles, I ask the Minister to consider compensating victims and the families of those who have been killed with some of the assets sequestered from Gaddafi. We now know that Colonel Gaddafi’s son lived in some splendour in a large house in north London—bizarrely, it is not far from where I spent a few years of my childhood.

During the past 60 years, Arab states have ethnically cleansed ancient Jewish communities, creating the largest population of refugees in the region—far larger than that of the Palestinians—and incurring property losses many times greater. My grandfather lost his material possessions when he was forced to leave Libya, but at least he could get away and rebuild his life here, unlike the Libyan people who have been oppressed for so long. We hope that their suffering is coming to an end. I commend what the Government have done, and I hope that they will work closely with the new Libyan leadership to help them develop democracy. I look forward to visiting Tripoli when it is more stable and retracing my dear grandfather’s and father’s footsteps.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I congratulate the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) on securing this timely debate.

I have limited time. I start with Robin Cook, as did the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham. With respect to him, he misquoted Robin Cook, as people so often do. Robin Cook, for whom I have great admiration, said on Monday 12 May 1997:

“The Labour Government does not accept that political values can be left behind when we check in our passports to travel on diplomatic business. Our foreign policy must have an ethical dimension”.

As the debate has progressed, that matter has become even more relevant to today’s discussion. The debate has been more backward-looking than I expected, but it is helpful to consider some of the points made as we look forward to the future of Libya and progress in that country, which hon. Members from all parties welcome.

I am sorry that there has been a partisan element to this debate, because I know that the speakers, whom I respect, believe in an ethical dimension to foreign policy. They seem, however, to have short memories. Robin Cook established his reputation in the arms to Iraq debate in the 1990s. That debate involved a Conservative Government, and—

[Mr James Gray (in the Chair)]

Order. We are drifting a little wide of the topic. We should focus on UK relations with Libya.

[Ian Lucas]

Well, there has been a great deal of criticism of Labour regarding the ethical dimension of foreign policy, and we must—

[Mr James Gray (in the Chair)]

Order. My ruling is that we return to the question under debate, namely UK relations with Libya. Nothing else is in order.

[Ian Lucas]

I accept your ruling, Mr Gray, although Hansard will record our previous discussion of other matters.

We need a balanced approach when considering the history of different parties’ approach to foreign affairs. From the outset, the Leader of the Opposition made clear his support for the Prime Minister’s decision to support, quite rightly, the actions in Libya. When difficult interventions were happening in Libya, he supported the Prime Minister throughout. Of course, there were times when particular aspects of policy were not succeeding, when the Opposition held the Government to account, as is our role.

There is now a broader consensus across the House on the ethical dimension of foreign policy. It is unhelpful to misrepresent the previous Government’s position—

[Mr James Gray (in the Chair)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman must now return to the question under debate, or he will resume his seat. We are discussing UK relations with Libya, not the ethical foreign policy of the previous Labour Government, or indeed any Government. The question is UK relations with Libya and nothing else.

[Ian Lucas]

I am delighted that last week, the UN voted unanimously to end the no-fly zone, which has now been lifted. The new resolution is another important landmark towards Libya’s democratic future. The state has a historic opportunity to build on human rights and to ensure that freedoms are protected. We in the United Kingdom have a great tradition of working with developing democracies to try to establish democratic values, and I know that the Minister will support that.

Britain’s future involvement in Libya is important. The shadow Foreign Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Mr Alexander), warned in September how a liberated country can quickly become a lawless and violent one. We have seen the end of armed conflict in Libya, and we are now seeing a steady transition to democratic government. The country must now embark on the delicate process of developing institutions. We know from our own history how difficult that is in the aftermath of civil war—Oliver Cromwell was not able to build enduring institutions in the UK. The problems that Libya now faces are serious, so we need to ensure—I think that the hon. Member for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) put this well—that the Libyan people are at the forefront of addressing them. It is important that we support their work in developing institutions.

Will the Minister make clear how he sees our role with Libya developing? Will the emphasis be on bilateral relations with Libya, or will we continue to work through NATO or the UN? What is the current format for the working relationship with the new Libyan Government, and how will that develop?

There is a great appetite in the House for developing relations with Libya. It is a matter for not only the Government, but Parliament as a whole. I am sure that there will be interest throughout Parliament in developing the nascent democracy in Libya. There is great interest in establishing working links, as well as economic links, with Libya. Companies in my constituency already export to Libya and have done so for a number of years, which, to pick up what the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham has said, is something that we need to develop. There is no shame in that. The Defence Secretary was right to say that there are business opportunities in Libya, and I am pleased to hear that Lord Green has already visited Libya and is assisting in the rebuilding of that country in a way that suggests that we can contribute as a nation. We have an opportunity in both the democratic and commercial spheres to assist with the development of Libya.