Draft International Tax Enforcement (Bermuda) Order 2017
Draft Double Taxation Relief and INTERNATIONAL TAX ENFORCEMENT (KYRGYZSTAN) ORDER 2017
Mel Stride Excerpts(7 years, 4 months ago)
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The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft International Tax Enforcement (Bermuda) Order 2017.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to consider the draft Double Taxation Relief and International Tax Enforcement (Kyrgyzstan) Order 2017.
Mel Stride
May I say, Mr Hosie, what a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship? The draft orders deal with a replacement tax information exchange agreement with Bermuda and our first double taxation agreement with Kyrgyzstan. Both statutory instruments bolster the United Kingdom’s long-standing network of international tax agreements.
The UK has had a tax information exchange agreement with Bermuda since 2007. That arrangement has allowed for the exchange of information on request between Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and the Bermudan tax authorities. Under a further agreement, signed in 2013, certain financial account data are received automatically by HMRC directly from Bermudan financial institutions. The draft order will supersede that further agreement and replace the tax information exchange arrangement from 2007.
The new instrument allows for automatic exchange of bulk financial data. This important change ensures that the UK continues to align with current international tax transparency standards. Bermuda will provide HMRC with an increased amount of information on UK taxpayers. Bermuda has the status of a UK overseas territory, but it is a separate jurisdiction, with its own elected Government, and is responsible for its own domestic fiscal policy. Thanks to UK leadership, Bermuda is committed to global tax transparency standards. This instrument is an important part of Bermuda’s commitment to those standards and will enhance HMRC’s ability to check the compliance of UK taxpayers who have financial affairs in Bermuda.
There are no other substantial changes between the old instruments and the one proposed. It, too, reflects the model developed by the OECD. This Government are committed to maintaining an extensive network of tax information exchange partners and agreements, which are an essential aspect of securing UK tax revenues.
The fluid exchange of information between jurisdictions is a key tool in the arsenal of international tax co-operation. Since 2010, HMRC has secured more than £2.8 billion from those trying to hide money abroad to avoid paying what they owe. The arrangement under consideration will assist HMRC in maintaining its strong track record of countering tax avoidance and evasion.
The UK has not had a double taxation agreement with Kyrgyzstan since it gained independence from the former Soviet Union in 1991. It was Kyrgyzstan that suggested we rectify that situation. It first requested talks in 2008 and repeated that request to us in 2013, citing a desire to open up its economy to promote economic development. For our part, we were keen to close a gap in our DTA coverage in the region and ensure that UK businesses could compete on an equal footing with businesses in comparable countries that had already concluded DTAs.
The agreement reached will improve the business conditions for UK companies and individuals operating and investing in Kyrgyzstan, while reflecting that nation’s status as a developing country. The rates of withholding tax are reduced to 5% for interest, royalties and dividend payments to direct investors; the rate under domestic law in Kyrgyzstan is 10%. In addition, the agreement permits the taxation of services where they are performed in a country over an extended period—a feature of the UN model tax treaty. However, there are no unwelcome provisions permitting the taxation of leasing payments on a gross basis that either impede commercial activity or increase costs for consumers. The resulting treaty is therefore a good compromise that will encourage investment in Kyrgyzstan by UK businesses, to the benefit of both economies.
I trust that the explanations I have given are helpful. The orders strengthen the UK’s taxing framework on many fronts, and I commend them to the Committee.
Mel Stride
Perhaps I can respond to the speakers in reverse order and start with the hon. Member for Glenrothes, whom I thank for his comments. I am pleased that he welcomed appropriately the greater transparency and provision of information to HMRC that will flow from the order in the case of Bermuda. He raised the issue of tax transparency, but Bermuda is a sovereign country with a democratically elected Parliament that makes its own decisions in those contexts.
However, we have worked closely with Bermuda, particularly in respect of the work carried out by the European Union, to ensure that we further that transparency process. Most recently, the EU confirmed that sufficient progress is being made in that regard. Bermuda has embraced common reporting standards, which both Members on sides of the Committee welcome, to ensure that information is provided to other tax jurisdictions.
The hon. Member for Norwich South made a number of points. I was pleased that he welcomed common reporting standards and its early adoption across the overseas territories, as we do. He raised the general issue of low-income countries and the benefits or otherwise of entering into such agreements when they are negotiated with a high-income country.
I would point out that Kyrgyzstan requested the arrangement after all, and was under no compulsion to enter into any agreement as negotiated. The big benefits to a country such as Kyrgyzstan are in the medium to longer term. Various studies, such as one conducted by Vienna University, have looked at the economic impact of withdrawing withholding taxes, of lowering taxes, and of providing the kind of certainty that businesses require when they consider where to invest internationally. That is an important medium to longer-term consequence for those countries of this kind of arrangement.
The hon. Gentleman also talked about the anti-abuse provisions in the order and made specific reference to the BEPS project. The treaty was concluded before the BEPS arrangements came into effect, but there are anti-treaty shopping elements in the order to ensure that those anti-abuse provisions are robust.
The hon. Gentleman is right that there are no mandatory arbitration provisions in the treaty, because constitutionally Kyrgyzstan is not permitted to enter that kind of arrangement. We have respected that. He is right to say that there have been some delays. It has taken time to go through the stages of the negotiation, partly because the Kyrgyzstan Government requested various technical changes along the way. There were also some issues about language and translation because the agreement had to be very, very precisely translated into three languages.
On that basis, I hope the Committee will agree to these orders.
Question put and agreed to.
Draft Double Taxation Relief and International Tax Enforcement (Kyrgyzstan) Order 2017
Resolved,
That the Committee has considered the draft Double Taxation Relief and International Tax Enforcement (Kyrgyzstan) Order 2017.—(Mel Stride.)
Oral Answers to Questions
Mel Stride Excerpts(7 years, 4 months ago)
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Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride)
The Government are undertaking a wide-ranging set of analyses of the impact of our departure from the European Union. This is changing through time as we develop our approach and we move to a bold and comprehensive agreement with our EU partners.
Geraint Davies
The Chancellor knew in 2016 that the majority of people would prefer a soft Brexit to a hard Brexit. I am referring to remainers, plus people such as the Foreign Secretary, who said he favoured a single market and would vote for it. Now that the Chancellor knows that a hard Brexit will cost us £45 billion in lost tax receipts, will he at least acknowledge that people such as me on both sides of the Chamber who support our remaining in both the customs union and the single market do so in the name of prosperity and of upholding democracy?
Mel Stride
The Government have made their position very clear: we are leaving the European Union, and that means we are leaving the customs union and the single market. However, we are determined to negotiate a deal under which our trade with the EU27 is as frictionless as possible and we are able, as a globally facing nation, to secure free trade agreements with other countries around the world.
Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con)
Will the Minister confirm that the Conservative Government are and will continue to be the voice of British business, and that securing a strong economic future will be at the heart of the Brexit negotiations?
Mel Stride
I thank my right hon. Friend very much indeed for that question. I can of course confirm that we remain entirely committed to the strength of our economy and to supporting businesses up and down the country, not least in our negotiations with the European Union. I have some responsibility for the customs part of the negotiations, and we are committed to making sure that goods and services move as frictionlessly as possible across the boundaries with the EU27 following our departure.
Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)
Mr Speaker,
“I believe that the best way forward is for Britain to renegotiate a new relationship with the European Union—one based on an economic partnership involving a customs union and a single market in goods and services.”
Those are not my words, but the words of the Secretary of State for International Trade and President of the Board of Trade on his website. What representations has the Minister had from the Secretary of State in support of our membership of the customs union and single market?
Mel Stride
The Secretary of State for International Trade is fully committed to the options that we set out in last year’s White Papers on the customs union and on trade. We are taking forward legislation to make sure that our aspirations in that respect for our negotiations with the EU can be landed when the deals are concluded.
Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)
Yesterday, I met a delegation of business representatives from my constituency who are optimistic about our prospects when we leave the single market and customs union. They are examining the concept of a free port for Immingham. Will the Minister agree to meet them when they have further developed their thoughts so that we can try to overcome possible obstacles?
Mel Stride
I—or, indeed, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury—would of course be happy to meet my hon. Friend and the business colleagues from his constituency. We are potentially interested in free ports and will keep the idea under review.
Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)
Many Cabinet members have made their views clear about the single market and customs union. The Chancellor has said that he would like to see no tariffs with Europe after we leave the EU and no hard border in Northern Ireland. His exact words, which were in a letter to the Treasury Committee, were that he wants a deal
“that facilitates the freest and most frictionless trade possible in goods between the UK and the EU, and allows us to forge new trade relationships with our partners in Europe and around the world.”
Will the Financial Secretary therefore welcome the speech that the Leader of the Opposition gave yesterday in which he proposed a new UK-EU customs union that would, to quote the Chancellor directly, facilitate
“the freest and most frictionless trade possible in goods between the UK and the EU”
and allow us to
“forge new trade relationships with our partners in Europe and around the world”?
Mel Stride
I am here to speak about Government policy, as you have quite rightly indicated, Mr Speaker. However, if I may say so, Opposition Members’ zig-zagging in respect of their position on the customs union has been quite extraordinary. If I understand what is being suggested, it seems to me, at a first take, that the idea that we can be in the customs union yet go out and have a high level of control over deals and free trade arrangements with other countries just does not hang together.
Chris Davies (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con)
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride)
My hon. Friend will know that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor announced an additional £1.2 billion for Wales in the Budget. We maintain our position of ensuring that Welsh Government funding per head is some 15% or more above the rate in England. As a consequence of those and other measures, Wales is now one of the fastest growing of the nations and regions of the United Kingdom.
Chris Davies
Does my right hon. Friend agree that leaving the UK single market would represent a far bigger risk to the Welsh economy than leaving the EU single market?
Mel Stride
My hon. Friend is entirely right. It is a simple fact that some 80% of Welsh exports go to the other nations of the United Kingdom, compared with just 12% going into the European Union. Those figures speak for themselves.
Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)
Traditionally, Wales has lower wages than the rest of the economy. In the light of low productivity and growth forecasts, what are the Government doing to attract high-quality jobs to the Welsh economy?
Mel Stride
As the House will know, we are doing a great deal for productivity throughout the country. We have agreed two city deals in Wales, with £500 million for Cardiff and £115.6 million for Swansea. Since 2010, employment in Wales is up by 7.3% and unemployment is down by 39%.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
My question is this: what investment? The Government have broken their promise to electrify the main line between the two main cities in my country, they will not commit to the Swansea Bay tidal lagoon, and the Swansea Bay city deal is 90% Welsh public and private money. At the same time, the Government are subsidising the most expensive railway in the world—in England. When will the British Government stop taking Wales for a ride?
Mel Stride
I am surprised to hear the hon. Gentleman level those accusations against the Government because, as I have explained, we set aside an additional £1.2 billion for Wales in the recent Budget. I have referred to the two city deals, and we are also backing the south Wales metro, as he will know. We are committed to agreeing further growth deals with north and south Wales.
Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab)
Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (Con)
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride)
The Government are committed to driving up investment in Scotland; my right hon. Friend the Chancellor announced an additional £2 billion at the last Budget. We have already boosted city deals by £1 billion and have committed further to looking at city deals in Stirling, Tay Cities and the borderlands.
Andrew Bowie
I am sure that my right hon. Friend will share my concern, and that of my constituents, at recent statistics showing that trend-based productivity in Scotland had declined by 3.2% in the year end to September 2017—well below the levels of the UK and its lowest level in eight years. Does he agree that instead of making Scotland the highest-tax part of the UK and increasing the tax burden on businesses, the Scottish Government should be encouraged to follow this Government’s lead—encouraging enterprise, boosting economic development and growing UK productivity to its highest levels in 10 years?
Mel Stride
My hon. Friend is absolutely right to raise the critical issue of productivity, which is, of course, the responsibility of not just this Government but the Scottish Government. I totally agree with him about the tax matter that he raised. It is important that we keep taxes down. To the extent that that has been achieved in Scotland, it has been to a large degree because of the changes we have made to the personal allowance—a decision taken by this Government in this House.
Fiona Onasanya (Peterborough) (Lab)
Robert Courts (Witney) (Con)
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride)
In 2010, we had a post-war record level of deficit at 9.9%, and we have reduced that to 2.3% as of last year. The Office for Budget Responsibility forecast in November is that the deficit will further decline to 1.1% of GDP by 2022-23.
Robert Courts
Will the Minister give an estimate of the effect that our deficit reduction measures have had on relieving the tax burden for younger generations?
Mel Stride
My hon. Friend raises a critical point about the importance of getting the debt down to make sure that future generations do not carry the burden of it. That is why we have reduced the deficit by three quarters and why we are going to hit our reduction in the level of debt as a percentage of GDP two years early, in 2020-21.
Mr Sheerman
Mr Speaker, you will know that I am not the most radical Member on the Labour Benches, but I want to tell the Minister that if the Government had been successfully reducing their budget, my constituents in Yorkshire could forgive her. The fact of the matter is that we have had the money for the electrification of the trans-Pennine railway stolen from us, and the Chancellor refuses to give it back. When will he make amends?
Mel Stride
As the hon. Gentleman will know, whether he is young or a puppy or whatever he may be, we are awaiting the business case for the trans-Pennine project, and when we receive it, we will look at it most closely.
Rachel Maclean (Redditch) (Con)
Nigel Huddleston (Mid Worcestershire) (Con)
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride)
As a Minister at the Treasury, I am delighted if people voluntarily step forward to pay more tax than they are due. I am pleased to inform my hon. Friend that that is already possible by way of a gift to the Crown. I am looking at ways of raising awareness of that particular opportunity, and I would be happy to meet him to discuss such options. I would also point out to right hon. and hon. Members the very generous gift aid reliefs that the Treasury provides for those who wish to make direct payments to charities of their choice.
Joan Ryan (Enfield North) (Lab)
Mel Stride
The Government believe that work is one of the most important drivers of bringing people out of poverty, and we are rolling out universal credit as a consequence. There is evidence that that is more successful as a way of doing so than relying on legacy benefits. As the right hon. Lady will probably know, 200,000 fewer children are now in absolute poverty than was the case in 2010.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Ind)
Andrew Lewer (Northampton South) (Con)
Mel Stride
I am delighted to inform the House that considerable progress has been made in reducing the level of tax evasion, avoidance and non-compliance in the corporate sector. We have been at the forefront of initiatives launched with the OECD—the base erosion and profit shifting initiative, the profit diversion tax we brought in in 2015—and, as a consequence of clamping down in this area, we have brought in £53 billion from big business since 2010.
Ellie Reeves (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab)
Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (SNP)
Ryanair has announced the slashing of more than 20 Glasgow airport routes, a cut of more than 1 million passengers and the loss of up to 300 jobs. The high level of APD and the delay in introducing the air departure tax—caused by this Government’s not notifying the European Commission regarding the ongoing exemption for the highlands and islands—have been cited as a reason. Another is the Brexit uncertainty in the aviation sector. With more routes and jobs likely to go, what are the Chancellor and his colleagues doing to support the aviation sector during Brexit negotiations?
Mel Stride
As the hon. Gentleman will know, the devolution of ADT has been delayed after consultations between ourselves and the Scottish Government. Both Governments are satisfied with the arrangements. As for Ryanair, I believe that part of the announcement was also that the company would be extending the number of routes out of Edinburgh airport.
James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con)
If we want a sustainable rise in wages, we will need higher productivity. Does my right hon. Friend therefore welcome the recent improvement in the figures?
Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)
Artificial intelligence brings huge economic opportunities, but to date big tech companies have seemed even more likely than traditional corporates to engage in aggressive tax avoidance and concentrate power in the hands of a narrow, homogenous group of people. What will the Treasury do to ensure that companies in this growing industry pay their own way fairly and take account of their wider corporate responsibility to society?
Mel Stride
The hon. Lady will know that we made announcements in the Budget in respect of the taxation of digitally based businesses that operate from digital platforms and so create value as a consequence. We are consulting on the measures we may take. We said in our consultation document that it is possible we will look at revenue taxes as one particular approach. Our preference is a multilateral move with our partners in the European Union and the OECD, but we are prepared to go it alone if that proves necessary.
Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con)
The services sector makes a huge tax contribution to the public purse. What confidence can the Chancellor give to my constituents who work in financial services that our new free trade agreement will cover services as well as goods?
Draft Enactment of Extra-Statutory Concessions Order 2018
Mel Stride Excerpts(7 years, 4 months ago)
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The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Enactment of Extra-Statutory Concessions Order 2018.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. As the Committee will be aware, Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs continues to review extra-statutory concessions. This order is another step in that process, and it will put on a statutory footing four concessions that will simplify the administration of the tax system but ensure that minor reliefs continue to be available as before. I am grateful to those who took the time to help the Government to improve the legislation.
The first concession allows directors’ fees received by partnerships and companies to be treated for tax purposes as trading rather than employment income. That simplifies the accounting process of those fees for both the payer and the recipient.
The second concession is similar, in that it allows professional practitioners, such as doctors, dentists and solicitors, to treat incidental income from an office or employment as part of their trading or professional income. That, again, simplifies accounting processes for taxpayers.
The third concession exempts from tax certain compensatory payments made to volunteers and voluntary office holders of public bodies. The fourth concession concerns payments from local medical committees to part-time committee members. The order does not make explicit reference to that, but it is covered by the legislation for the other three concessions. The last two concessions mean that public bodies do not have to act as employers for tax purposes when making such compensatory payments.
I hope the Committee can see how valuable the concessions are in simplifying the tax system for employers and for individuals who provide their services and expertise to others. There is no issue of tax loss here, as the sums paid under the concessions are either taxed as part of trading profits or do no more than compensate for loss of income in undertaking public service.
The draft order will come into force on 6 April 2018. I commend the order to the Committee.
Mel Stride
I thank the shadow Minister for his contribution, for his support for the order and for his two questions. He is quite right. We consulted fully on this measure between 14 September and 9 November last year.
Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab)
The consultation received only four responses. Is that normal? What were the processes for publicising the consultation?
Mel Stride
On those specific questions, which are very relevant and pertinent, I would be very happy to come back to the hon. Lady, if some information does not wing its way to me in the next moment or two. I intend to cogitate on the important point that she has raised.
In the meantime, I shall return to the shadow Minister’s two questions. I await some information on NICs and directors’ fees. [Interruption.] That information has arrived: there is no impact on NICs in respect of his question. He also raised the scope of the concessions, and the change from “small” to “insubstantial”. I am fairly confident that that rests in the guidance that HMRC operates on those matters, but I am happy to come back to him on that.
Having answered those two questions, I return to the question that the hon. Member for Rotherham asked. Is it normal to get just four responses? The answer is that that is not unusual, given that the consultation was a very technical one. On that basis, I hope that the Committee will agree to the order.
Question put and agreed to.
Finance (No. 2) Bill
Mel Stride ExcerptsWednesday 21st February 2018
(7 years, 4 months ago)
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Wes Streeting
I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention because he makes exactly the point I have made since the general election. We put forward policies in our manifesto—by the way, they proved immensely popular across the country and led to a result that a lot of people were not expecting—and I think we should do a distributional analysis of such policies across the board to make sure that resources are properly targeted where they are needed.
In conclusion, we should not fear such information and evidence, which would lead to better-informed government. The greatest tragedy of this Prime Minister is not the fact that she is being held hostage by the hard Brexiteers on the right of her party; it is that she has not delivered on a single one of the sentiments in the fine words she said on the steps of Downing Street about creating a more equal society and tackling injustices that are still burning injustices even in one of the richest economies in the world in the 21st century. Sentiments are all well and good, but we need policies that are backed up by evidence and reason, and we need the ability genuinely to tackle the problems that the Prime Minister set out so long ago on the steps of No. 10, but which I fear she will never be able to implement before they boot her out next year.
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride)
Before I plunge into new clause 9, as indeed I will at some length, may I concur wholeheartedly with the statement made by the hon. Member for Ilford North (Wes Streeting) when he praised civil servants for their impartiality, objectivity and professionalism? In my experience of the Treasury, I have always found them to be exactly that. We should all register that important point.
We have had a fairly wide-ranging debate. I hesitate to add that, on one or two occasions, it has been marginally informative. On one occasion—I will not name the Member—it was very informative because I actually learned something I had not previously known. The reason why it has been wide-ranging is that this is of course an extremely important issue. What I hope unites Members on both sides of the House is that every Member of the House deplores unwarranted inequality. It is not that we are all entirely equal—we are, of course, different—but we have a right to be treated with equal respect and a right to equal opportunity and aspiration, as it was eloquently termed my hon. Friend the Member for Stevenage (Stephen McPartland).
If I may, I will look at new clause 9 in a little detail. As I have suggested, it has been slightly absent from this debate, so let us bring it back to centre stage. The new clause seeks to require the Chancellor of the Exchequer to provide a
“review before the House of Commons within six months of the passing of this Act.”
In so doing, the Chancellor has to look at a number of aspects of the impact of the Finance Bill now going through the House. Under the new clause, the review would look at
“the impact of those provisions on households at different levels of income”.
As has already been pointed out at length, we have indeed brought back the household distribution analysis that looks at tax, welfare and public expenditure, and at the impact of those elements on different income levels by decile.
Under the new clause, the review would also look at
“the impact of those provisions on people with protected characteristics (within the meaning of the Equality Act 2010)”.
This is perhaps a good moment for me to say something very important. Ministers of course always seek to operate within the law, and the Equality Act is very clear about our duties as Ministers when we consider various policies that come before us. Those policies are not just those before us in the context of a major fiscal event, but policies and decisions we take day in and day out, some of which never even pass through this House. We do so not just because of the law, but because we think it is the right thing to do.
Under new clause 9, the review would also look at
“the impact of those provisions on the Treasury’s compliance with the public sector equality duty under section 149 of the Equality Act 2010, and…the impact of those provisions on equality in different parts of the United Kingdom and different regions of England.”
The new clause then focuses on the specific taxes covered by the assessment the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be required to present in the report. I want to make one important general point: in looking at regional aspects of spending and tax, it is far easier, for fairly obvious reasons, to consider the spending elements than the regional distribution when it comes to taxation.
Mrs Badenoch
Does the Minister agree that it would be so impractical to carry out such impact assessments that it would slow down Government business? Perhaps one of the reasons why the Opposition have tabled the new clause is to make it difficult for us to get our policies and the Finance Bill through.
Mel Stride
I thank my hon. Friend very much for that intervention, because she touches on the important point that there is an element of proportionality. As I will come on to argue, one of the difficulties with accepting the new clause is that a lot of the information is not available. That is not an argument for not going out and finding the information, but some of it would be extremely difficult to generate. I would not go as far as my hon. Friend in suggesting that this is a Machiavellian plan to gum up the works of Government, but I am sure some Opposition Members might be pleased to see that happen. I take the new clause in the spirit of the wording in front of me.
Dawn Butler
I just want to help the Minister a bit. The Women’s Budget Group, the Runnymede Trust and lots of other organisations, as well as the ONS and HMRC, accumulate the data that would be needed, so the data necessary to carry out equality impact assessments are available. In fact, the Treasury does some assessments anyway.
Mel Stride
The hon. Lady is suggesting that one particular set of analyses is an ideal set to present, and can be seen as in no way misleading, but entirely robust and entirely objective. If we are to reach such a quality of data, we will have to achieve certain specific aims, and one of the aims is to deal with the fact that a lot of the analysis to which she is referring is very selective—it does not look at the entire picture. For example, some of the analysis reflecting changes in income tax may show a benefit for one sex over another, but it may not take into account the impact of increased spending on childcare.
Mel Stride
If I may finish this point, I will then certainly give way to the hon. Lady.
A lot of these analyses simply look at the static situation, without taking into account the fact that the measures we are bringing forward will in themselves have a dynamic effect on the economy—for example, by driving up employment. Several Members have spoken very eloquently about the record level of female employment at the moment. That is benefiting women, but the interaction of our policies with that benefit would not be reflected in such an analysis. I have already mentioned that a lot of the information being sought is very difficult to verify and very difficult to obtain, particularly where it pertains to protected characteristics, such as sexuality, gender reassignment and pregnancy. It is very hard to identify those groups and the way in which they are affected, particularly in terms of all the taxes in new clause 9—I will come on to them in a moment—that the Opposition want us to address.
Mel Stride
I will make a final point before I give way to the hon. Lady. It has been a long time since we have jousted, and I have missed it, so I will certainly give way to her. There is a very important point about the impact in particular on households, which is one of the major thrusts of new clause 9. It is very difficult to disentangle the effect of income that may go to one member of the household, but is of course subsequently shared across the household. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has itself highlighted that as a particular barrier to getting robust information. I will now gladly give way.
Anneliese Dodds
I am very grateful to the Minister for his generosity in giving way, and for his kind words. I want briefly to mention that the Department for Work and Pensions does produce this kind of modelling for social security changes, which may be similarly complex in looking at the interactions of different elements, so why does the Treasury take a different approach? In relation to that, would not the assumptions be spelled out, so that any ambiguity could be made clear?
Mel Stride
I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention, but I bring her back to new clause 9. Whatever the DWP happens to be doing, whether it is right or wrong or whether it works, what we are facing here today and making a decision on is new clause 9. As I am working through new clause 9, I am arguing that it is not a practical way to seek to achieve that which the Opposition, quite genuinely and sincerely, are attempting to achieve.
Sir Oliver Heald
I wonder whether my right hon. Friend would like to say a word about the extent of research the Treasury already undertakes and publishes. It is my understanding that more than 2,500 Treasury papers have been published, so it is really a question, is it not, of where we draw the line? If a piece of research is proving very difficult, and would be very resource-intensive and so on, that will obviously make it less likely to be done than if it is a more straightforward piece.
Mel Stride
Yes. My right hon. and learned Friend makes a very important point. As I have already pointed out, around major fiscal events we have household distributional analysis, which covers welfare, taxation and public expenditure. It takes a cumulative approach to that information and it is often relied upon by Government to take subsequent decisions. We also have, on substantial individual tax and national insurance contribution measures, tax impact and information notes—the so-called TIINs—which were introduced in 2010 and were not there under the previous Labour Government. We are, therefore, doing a number of things, both in the context of major fiscal events and on a tax-by-tax, national insurance-by-national insurance change basis, which look to provide just the kind of information that informs decisions around equality.
The third part of new clause 9 relates to the taxes to which this analysis would apply. On income tax, as I have said, we are looking at impacts on households. We may raise the personal allowance, as we did in the last Budget. That is now up to £11,500. It could be argued that that disproportionately favours one sex over another, but when we look at the effect on the household, income is typically distributed within families, within households and within the family unit. That is extremely difficult—in fact, I would go as far as to say impossible—to capture.
Stella Creasy
The Minister made that point the last time we tried to discuss this issue. Forgive me, but he seems to be presuming that a household is a man and a woman. Has he managed to get his head around single person households and single women, because women’s incomes are disproportionately hit by Government policy? At the very least, could he manage to measure the women who are affected by his tax and policy changes who do not live with a man who might confuse him?
Mel Stride
If the hon. Lady can come up with a sure-fire way of identifying women who live with men who do not confuse them, we will probably make some progress. The point I am making is that this area is riddled with huge complexity, yet new clause 9 seeks to achieve the presentation of reports and assessments that have the imprimatur of Government and the Treasury upon them. They are relied upon to take very important decisions, yet the arguments I am prosecuting suggest that we would actually end up with an incomplete picture. In fact, I would go further than that and say that they could be misleading in a way that would be unhelpful to what I know the hon. Lady is seeking to achieve and indeed what the Government are also seeking to achieve.
Helen Whately
Does the Minister share the view expressed by many of us this afternoon that while those on the Opposition Benches are looking for very complicated analysis that may, unfortunately, be rather misleading, we actually have a very strong track record, if we take a step back, of reducing inequality and making things better for those on the lowest incomes?
Mel Stride
Yes. My hon. Friend makes an extremely important point. We know that the gender pay gap is at its lowest level on record, for example. That is a very substantial achievement and we are making considerable headway in that particular respect.
Some of the other taxes mentioned in new clause 9 include employment and disguised remuneration. Disguised remuneration is a highly complicated area, as the hon. Member for Oxford East (Anneliese Dodds) will know, having discussed it in some detail in Committee. The mind boggles as to how one would possibly unpack the effects on the various protected characteristics of that particular taxation. Pension schemes are also extremely complicated. Settlements and air passenger duty are perhaps a little bit easier than some of the others, but the point is that overall—and we have to look at the new clause in its entirety—new clause 9 is extremely complicated indeed.
Finally, there should be no doubt that those of us on the Government Benches are entirely committed to ensuring that we drive the equality agenda and drive it very hard indeed. We should, as my hon. Friend the Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Helen Whately) suggested, look to our own record in that respect. We now have more women in work than at any time in our history. In the past year, 60% of employment growth came from female employment. We have the lowest gender pay gap in full-time employment ever. Those companies employing 250 employees or more, as we have said often in this debate, are now required by law to provide a gender wage audit. Contrary to what the hon. Member for Brent Central (Dawn Butler) suggested, there are teeth. Penalties can be applied by the ECHR, and fines can follow where that is not done. For those who are disabled, we spend a record amount in excess of £50 billion a year on benefits. As has been said by a number of Government Members, the national living wage has disproportionately helped some of the most needy in our society. When we talk about equality on this side of the House, we mean it. I urge the House to reject new clause 9.
Dawn Butler
Having a detailed understanding of how policy choices exacerbate or eliminate inequality at every stage of policy making is key to tackling burning injustices and producing good policies. I wish to put new clause 9 to the vote.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.
Madam Deputy Speaker
Order. I beg the hon. Gentleman’s pardon. I have made a mistake, in that I thought the Minister had already addressed the House on this group. I also beg the Minister’s pardon.
Mel Stride
There was a ripple of dissatisfaction when you failed to call me to speak, Madam Deputy Speaker, but it was almost imperceptible. Thank you for correcting your error.
In this debate we have heard about a range of issues, including the changes the Finance Bill makes to the bank levy, the taxation of private finance initiatives, and tax avoidance and evasion. I will respond to each in turn, starting with the bank levy. Opposition Members have raised a number of objections to the changes to the levy made by the Finance Bill and to the Government’s broader approach to bank taxation. These are unjustified. This Government remain committed to ensuring that banks make an appropriate additional tax contribution, beyond that paid by other businesses, that reflects the unique risks they pose to the UK financial system and to the wider economy.
I shall address some of the arguments put forward by the shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury, the hon. Member for Bootle (Peter Dowd), which I felt focused far too much on the bank levy. It is indeed declining, but there is good reason for that. In 2015, when we took the relevant decisions on this, we recognised that the risks presented by our banks had eased quite considerably. Indeed, the Bank of England has recently carried out rigorous stress testing on the banks, and that was the first occasion on which not a single bank failed its stress test. That is indicative of the fact that one of the raisons d’être for the bank levy has started to recede. That is to say that the banks are less of a risk than they were before, and the charges on the assets and liabilities that they hold are therefore becoming less relevant. The hon. Gentleman did not focus so much on the surcharge to the banking tax, which came in from 1 January 2016 and which represents an additional 8% on the profitability of banks at the present time. Whereas corporations are paying 19%, we are now looking at a total rate of around 27% for banks.
Anneliese Dodds
I am grateful to the Minister for that explanation, but as we have said before, when we take both those measures together, we see that the reduction in the levy along with the surcharge results in a lower overall contribution over time. We have spelled out clearly in our previous debates that the overall amount coming from the banks is receding over time, even with the surcharge.
Mel Stride
That is not the case. I will explain some of the figures in a moment, but there are other elements that are not being taken into account. One is that the banks are not permitted to offset against their profits the PPI compensation payments. Also, they are now working to a more restrictive corporate interest restriction regime, under which they are allowed to roll forward only 25% of their interest chargeable to offset against profits. Taking all those measures together, we have raised some £44 billion more from the banks since 2010 than we would have done if we had treated them simply as any other corporate business.
Opposition Members have cited changes in revenue from the bank levy. They argue that this is declining, but it is misleading to consider bank levy changes in isolation when they form part of a set of wider changes to bank taxes announced in 2015 and 2016, including introducing the 8% surcharge. Overall, rather than reducing revenue, these tax changes are expected to raise £4.6 billion over the current forecast period. I think that the hon. Lady will be interested to hear that figure.
Anneliese Dodds
We have just looked at the projections up to 2022-23. For the current year, we see £3 billion coming in from the levy and £1.6 billion coming in from the surcharge. The projection for 2022-23 is £1.3 billion from the levy and £1.1 billion from the surcharge. That appears to be a significant reduction; in fact, it is almost half.
Mel Stride
Taking into account the respective changes, we will raise £4.6 billion over the forecast period as a consequence. My point is that it is simply not right to focus only on the declining part of the equation—the reduction in the banking levy charge—and not on the fact that we are raising more as a consequence of the 8% surcharge and the increased profitability of banks on our watch.
Mel Stride
Perhaps we can get into the nitty-gritty of this offline.
The average revenue from the bank levy between its introduction in 2011 and 2015-16 was around £2.6 billion. As a result of this package, however, yield from the surcharge and the levy in 2022-23 is forecast to be £3.2 billion. By 2023, as I have said, we will have raised around £44 billion in additional bank taxes since the 2010 election.
Opposition Members have also suggested that our bank levy is set at a low level compared with other countries. In fact, not all financial centres have a bank levy. The USA, for example, chose not to introduce one at all, and while several EU countries introduced bank levies following the financial crisis, it is not possible to make direct comparisons between these levies as the rules for each are different.
We have heard the argument this afternoon that we should reintroduce a tax on bankers’ pay. One of the aims of the changes to bank taxation announced in 2015 and 2016 is to ensure a sustainable long-term basis for taxing banks, based on taxing bank profits and the bank levy. By contrast, the bank payroll tax referred to in new clause 3 was always intended as a one-off tax. Reintroducing it would be ineffective and unsustainable compared with the package of banking tax measures that we have introduced. Even the last Labour Chancellor pointed out that it could not be repeated without significant tax avoidance.
Opposition Members also propose that HMRC should publish a register of tax paid by individual banks under the levy. Taxpayer confidentiality is rightly a core principle for trust in our tax system and HMRC does not publish details of the amount of tax paid by any individual business. While the Government continue to consider measures to support transparency over businesses’ tax affairs, we must balance that with maintaining taxpayer confidentiality in order to maintain public confidence in our tax system.
Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)
Does the Minister accept that the transparency that is being sought is down to the public, demanding it? After all these years of difficulty, and at a time when so many communities face council tax increases of 5%, there seems to be an inherent unfairness in the tax system.
Mel Stride
I just do not accept that. This goes back to my point about the balance of measures that we are taking. The Opposition are understandably focusing on the bank levy, which is indeed declining over time, but I point to the additional 8% surcharge, which is 8% more on corporation tax than other non-banking businesses are expected to pay. As I have said, the banks are also not permitted to carry forward interest rate charges to the same degree as other businesses, and they are not allowed to offset against tax the compensation payments that they have been making. All those things add up to additional tax and by 2023 will have raised an extra £44 billion since 2010 compared with what would have been raised from non-banking businesses.
Matt Western
At the same time as corporation tax is being reduced overall—I accept the point about the bank surcharge—does the Minister not accept that we are seeing a significant increase in council tax for the public?
Mel Stride
As my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Chris Philp) pointed out, as we have reduced the overall level of corporation tax from 28% to 19%—corporation tax, of course, applies to banks as it does to non-banking businesses—we have seen the tax take increase by some 50%. We have actually been raising more revenue as a consequence of those changes.
Finally, new clause 5 would require the Government to publish further analysis of the impact of the Bill’s bank levy re-scope. The Government have already published a detailed tax information and impact note on the proposed changes, and we have published information, certified by the OBR, on the overall Exchequer impact of the 2015 package of measures for banks. It is important to legislate for such changes now in order to give UK banks certainty on their tax position so that they can plan effectively for the future.
The changes in clause 33 and schedule 9 complete a package of measures that raises additional revenue from banks in a way that delivers a tax regime that is more sustainable, more aligned with regulation and more supportive of the competitiveness of UK financial services. We should pass them without amendment.
In her amendments, the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) calls for a windfall tax on private finance initiative companies. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Stevenage (Stephen McPartland), who outlined his vigorous work in this area in support of his constituents.
There are approximately 700 operational projects that originated under the initial PFI, representing £60 billion in capital investment. The vast majority of those projects were signed between 1997 and the 2010—620, or 86%, of all PFI projects in the UK were signed under the last Labour Government.
This Government have taken action to ensure that PFI contracts deliver better value for money for the taxpayer. That is why in 2011 we introduced the operational public-private partnership efficiency programme, which has reported £2 billion of savings. Even where it is not possible to find savings in a project, we are working with Departments and procuring authorities to improve day-to-day effectiveness and management of contracts. We have also made improvements through PF2 to offer taxpayers better value for money on new projects.
The hon. Member for Walthamstow argues that a windfall tax on what she sees as the excess profits of PFI companies would help to fund public services; I am clear that it would not. A retrospective windfall tax would instead do damage to any private investment in public services and would tax local authorities and NHS trusts rather than the providers it is intended to target. Even aside from those flaws, her amendments would not work as she intends, and I will set out why in more detail.
First, a windfall tax would cost this and future Governments who try to sign contracts with businesses, whether in PFI or in another area. This country has a hard-won reputation for tax certainty, and that important principle would be undermined by a retrospective tax targeting businesses that have legitimately entered into a contract with the Government. There would be extra cost for the taxpayer whenever the Government next needed to engage the private sector.
Secondly, as the hon. Lady knows, PFI contracts—she said that she has read many—are long-term agreements that typically include anti-discriminatory clauses. This means that when legislation is passed that targets PFI companies without applying to similar projects undertaken by other companies, the tax owed can be recovered from the procuring authorities. A windfall tax would therefore only be a tax on local authorities, NHS trusts and Government Departments that hold such contracts, which I am sure is not the outcome she seeks.
Amendments 1 and 2 propose that the bank levy could be extended to PFI groups, but PFI groups are not banks. Instead, they borrow money to finance projects and earn a return on them, in exactly the same way that many other businesses do. It is simply not possible to bring PFI groups within the scope of the bank levy. Most of the design of the tax could not be applied to such groups.
The changes proposed by amendments 3 and 4 also would not work as a windfall tax. The last Finance Act introduced corporate interest restriction rules to limit the amount of interest expense that a corporate group can deduct against its taxable profits. The amendments propose modifying those rules by limiting the ability of corporate groups to carry forward and offset their unused interest allowance against future profits. The limitation would apply only where the group contains a PFI company that has previously made profits that are deemed to be “excessive,” by reference to a statutory test. The changes proposed in the amendments are convoluted. As I have said, it would fall to the public bodies holding the PFI contracts to pay the extra tax resulting from these changes. But even if one could impose additional tax liabilities on PFI providers, this would not be a sensible way to proceed. It would be unlikely to change the tax paid by the PFI company, but would instead sometimes penalise other companies in the same corporate group. More likely, groups would simply restructure to avoid the tax.
Sir Vince Cable (Twickenham) (LD)
I rise to speak to new clause 2 in my name and in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), and I will say a few words about amendments 13 and 14 to schedule 3 that address a technical point of some importance raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael), who regrets that he cannot be here to speak to the amendments himself.
New clause 2 would ask the Office for Budget Responsibility to produce an independent, verifiable, non-political estimate of the yield that could be obtained by adding 1p in the £1—a 1% increase—to the standard, higher and additional rates of income tax. We are doing this not to give the Treasury computer some exercise—I am sure that it gets plenty—but to produce an estimate that we can all subscribe to of the revenue base that would exist for an earmarked tax to finance the NHS. This Report stage is clearly not the place to debate the NHS, but I want to raise the basic principle of how the Treasury might finance it.
In the middle of last year, the chief executive of NHS England produced an estimate that about £6 billion was required to keep the NHS on a sustainable footing and to avoid a serious winter crisis—this was about £4 billion for the NHS itself and £2 billion for social care through local councils. In the event, the Treasury, in its November Budget came up with about £2 billion—we can argue about how much of that was real, but let us say it was £2 billion—but we had the winter crisis in any case, and it has been discussed here on many occasions. We have heard about the long trolley waits, the elderly people waiting in hospital for placements and the stress on staff. We hope the winter is now over, although we cannot be absolutely certain of that. The issue I want to raise is how we prevent this situation from happening in the next financial year.
The proposal that we have an earmarked allocation of revenue from a small increase in income tax comes from a commission that my party set up, consisting of not just supporters but a lot of independent people with authority in the NHS. It includes the former chief executives of NHS England, of the Patients Association and of the Royal College of Nursing, and the former chair of the Royal College of General Practitioners, among others of similar status. They argue that the only sensible, practical way now to prevent this endlessly recurring financial and then real crisis in the health service is to have a dedicated source of tax revenue.
There have traditionally been two objections to such a proposal, one of which was public opinion—the public do not like higher taxes—but the survey evidence from a big Sky poll some months ago suggested that if people were absolutely confident that the money would be allocated to the health service, about 70% of them would support such an income tax increase; other polls have suggested the same.
The second objection was a traditional Treasury one, which was that such an approach makes public spending and taxation more difficult to manage. I would cite as a counter to that the recent comments of the former head of the Treasury, Lord Macpherson, who presided over it in the five years when I was in the coalition Government. He is a massively impressive man. I confess that we did not always agree—he tended to regard public spending as some kind of disease—but none the less, he is a very authoritative source, and he appears to have been converted to the idea that such a measure is the only way in which the NHS can be put on a properly sustainable footing.
Looking ahead to the next financial year, which is what we are asking the Government to do, the question is: how are we going to avoid the kind of problems we have had this year? The first way is by the Government simply muddling through on their current spending assumptions, and probably in the next Budget, in the autumn, the Chancellor will come up with another rabbit out of the hat, which will be inadequate and too late.
The other alternative is to hope that there is some kind of advance payment of the “Brexit dividend”. I think that we are all familiar with these arguments about the £300 million a week that was supposed to come back—I think we have been promised £18 billion a year. We now know that this is almost entirely phoney and cannot be relied upon. Of course it was a gross, not a net, estimate, and we now know that we are going to pay out at least £40 billion. There will be continued annual payments through the transition period and possibly additional ad hoc payments on top of that.
Even on a fairly charitable view, we would be talking about five to six years before there is any dividend, and even that depends on a continued constant rate of growth. If growth slows down, as it almost certainly will post Brexit, this dividend may never appear. So if we cannot rely on a Brexit dividend and we are going to get past ad hoc financing, some new mechanism needs to be found, and the purpose of our new clause is to open up that discussion. I do not propose to press the new clause to a Division, but I am interested to hear how the Treasury currently regards earmarked taxation and whether its thinking has advanced in any way.
Finally, I wish to say a few words in support of the amendments tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland, one of whose constituents has raised a substantial point about an HMRC proposal in the Bill that relates to dormant companies and their pension funds. The proposal is that such schemes should be de-registered when the companies have become dormant. The reasoning behind it is perfectly sensible: some such funds have been used for scams, to the cost of the public and HMRC, so HMRC proposes to de-register them when such things happen.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland’s constituent has pointed out some unintended consequences of this apparently sensible proposal, one of which is that there are quite a lot of cases in which the pension funds of dormant companies have been taken over by other companies. There are other cases in which a sponsoring company may be dormant but the trustees have kept it going on a pay-in basis, and it is perfectly sustainable.
The other aspect of the proposal that potentially causes a problem is that de-registration could happen after a closure of one month. A good recent example would be Monarch airlines. As we all know, it takes a lot more than a month to wind up a pension scheme, so it is a bit pre-emptory. I do recognise, as does my right hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland’s constituent, that the power for HMRC would be discretionary. The Minister may say that we should trust HMRC always to get these things right, but it may be more sensible, as amendments 13 and 14 suggest, to have a carve-out to deal with cases that clearly do not fall within its remit.
The purpose of the amendments is to suggest that the de-registration activities should be restricted to the most recent six years, because that is when the scams have occurred and we do not need to go back into history. There should be a specific carve-out for cases in which there may well have been a pension fund succession. The provision would be that there should be at least one dormant employer and that a two-year period should be allowed for pension funds that have been maintained for a substantial time and are therefore clearly viable. Neither I nor my right hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland would pretend that those are necessarily the perfect solutions to the problem, but I hope the Minister will acknowledge that there is an issue and get the Treasury to reflect on it and perhaps come up with a superior solution.
Mel Stride
Given the limited time remaining, I intend to focus most of my remarks on the amendments and new clauses that have been spoken to in this debate.
I shall begin with new clauses 7 and 8, which seek reviews of the operation of the SDLT exemption for first-time buyers. As we know, housing is one of the great challenges of our age. We all recognise—we certainly have done in this debate—the importance of the supply side, which is why my right hon. Friend the Chancellor, whom I am delighted to see on the Treasury Bench, made such important announcements about funding for more housing. We can now look at hitting 300,000 new build homes in the next decade. The point was made that the OBR suggested that prices may increase by 0.3% as a result of our SDLT measure, but that observation is based on that measure alone and does not take into account the supply-side measures we are introducing.
Amendments 10, 11 and 12 relate to taxis and the vehicle excise duty supplement.
Julia Lopez (Hornchurch and Upminster) (Con)
I wonder whether I might make a suggestion on the amendments to which my right hon. Friend just referred. Cabbies in my constituency have raised legitimate concerns about vehicle excise duty. If I have read them correctly, it seems that the amendments that have been tabled to clause 44 would make all taxis exempt from certain vehicle excise duty rates this year, rather than just the new, electric-capable vehicles. As my right hon. Friend knows from our discussions about taxis, I and other London Conservative MPs have serious concerns about air quality in the capital, so I would appreciate his view on whether it would instead be better if we brought forward by a year—
Mark Pawsey
On behalf of 1,000 skilled workers at the London Electric Vehicle plant in my constituency, will my right hon. Friend look very carefully at the proposals to bring forward the exemption on electric vehicles?
Mel Stride
If we look at bringing forward this exemption, the important thing is that we should look solely at that element that relates to low-emission vehicles, rather than applying it to all taxis, as indeed amendments 10, 11 and 12 do, as tabled by the hon. Member for Ilford North (Wes Streeting). However, having listened to the representations from my hon. Friends the Members for Hornchurch and Upminster (Julia Lopez) and for Rugby (Mark Pawsey) and indeed from the hon. Gentleman who has tabled the amendments, we are minded to look sympathetically at bringing forward the exemption by a year for those taxis that have low emissions, albeit that they cost £40,000 or more. I know that my hon. Friend the Exchequer Secretary will shortly be meeting representatives from the London Taxi Company and that he will be furthering those discussions with them.
In the one minute remaining, perhaps I could turn to new clause 10, which calls for a review of the consequences of not backdating the refund of VAT in respect of the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service. The Chancellor made it clear in the Budget that, after lobbying from our Conservative colleagues in particular, we would allow such refunds going forward. In 2012, when the Scottish Government entered into those arrangements, they did so knowing what the VAT consequences would be, but we are taking action going forward.
Finally, I understand the desire of the right hon. Member for Twickenham (Sir Vince Cable) to have information on the effects of increases of income tax by 1%. However, there is no need for that now, as information is available on that. Time does not allow me to explain what that is, but I will speak to him after this debate, and on that basis, I hope that he will not press his amendment. I also take on board his comments about dormant companies and pension fund arrangements, but we do have to look to HMRC to make those judgments so that we ensure that these scams are prevented.
Anneliese Dodds
We have no time left, so I will press new clause 7 to a Division.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.
Mel Stride
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
The Bill makes a number of vital changes to our tax system, helping people to buy their first homes, working towards improving productivity in our country, and making our tax system fairer and more sustainable. This Government believe in
“a nation-wide property-owning democracy.”
That conviction is as strong now as it was when Anthony Eden first said those words in 1946, but it is obvious to all of us in the House that the ideal has been eroded, and that the next generation of potential homeowners are being shut out. In London, prices are nearly 13 times the average wage, and in the rest of England they are eight times the average wage. Home ownership has decreased by 20 percentage points among young people in just the last 15 years. This Government know that the most sustainable way to improve affordability is by increasing supply. That is why at the autumn Budget we took steps to address this. We announced the Letwin review to look at why planning permissions are not turning into homes, and we increased Government funding for new housing to £44 billion over the next five years.
But there are also things we can do in the short term to help young people in particular to get a foot on to the ladder, so this Bill provides for a stamp duty cut for first-time buyers. First-time buyers tend to be more cash-constrained than others, with stamp duty representing a key financial obstacle, on top of a deposit and conveyancing fees for purchases over £125,000. This Bill will help more people to negotiate these challenges and exempts first-time buyers from stamp duty for houses worth up to £300,000, and it provides discounts for houses worth up to £500,000. This will save homebuyers up to £5,000 and will mean 80% of first-time buyers will not pay any stamp duty.
This Government have presided over 20 successive quarters of economic growth, record levels of employment and a significant decrease in the Budget deficit, as well as among the lowest levels of unemployment in over 40 years. This has been achieved only because of fair and sustainable fiscal and economic policy, but Britain’s productivity growth is subdued and has been since 2008, and I hardly need to tell the House why this should concern us, for productivity is intimately linked to real incomes and to living standards. That is why in this Bill we are increasing the research and development expenditure credit from 11% to 12%, thereby increasing incentives to businesses to invest in R&D. We also need to encourage our entrepreneurs and help their bright ideas to become productive business, but, as Sir Damon Buffini pointed out in the “Patient Capital Review”, it is often those companies at the forefront of technological and knowledge-based development with the most productive potential that struggle for necessary capital. In this Bill we are therefore increasing the lifetime investment limit for knowledge-intensive companies through our venture capital schemes from £5 million to £10 million, and we are doubling the yearly amount an investor can put into these schemes to £2 million, provided that everything over £1 million is invested in knowledge-intensive businesses. Building an economy fit for the future relies on our harnessing technology, new ideas, and the expertise we already have; these changes will help to make that happen.
The Government will continue to work relentlessly to make our tax system fairer and more sustainable, and this Bill continues the Government’s work on tax avoidance and evasion, making sure that people pay their fair share. Since 2010 the Government have introduced over 100 avoidance and evasion measures, which have helped to secure and protect over £175 billion of additional tax revenues to go towards our vital public services. But the work is not done, and this Bill furthers that agenda, cracking down on online VAT evasion, making online marketplaces joint and severally liable for the unpaid VAT of their sellers, and preventing companies from claiming unfair tax relief on their intellectual property. Taken together, the measures in the Bill to tackle avoidance and evasion raise further vital funds for our public services.
I thank Members for the quality of the debate during the passage of this Bill, and I thank in particular the Bill Committee and those on the Opposition Front Benches, both Labour and Scottish National parties, for their professional scrutiny and the fair and effective way in which they conducted themselves.
This Bill is one of which this Government can be proud. It gives first-time buyers renewed hope of a place on the housing ladder, puts measures in place to boost productivity, and takes another step along the path towards an equitable and sustainable tax system. I commend the Bill to the House.
EVEL Analysis
Mel Stride Excerpts(7 years, 4 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride)
I have today published a written submission outlining the Government’s analysis of how the English votes for English laws principle relates to all Government amendments tabled for Report stage of the Finance (No.2) Bill.
The Department’s assessment is that the amendments do not change the territorial application of the Bill. The analysis holds if all the Government amendments be accepted.
I have deposited a copy of the submission in the Library of the House.
[HCWS470]
Treasury
Mel Stride Excerpts(7 years, 4 months ago)
Ministerial CorrectionsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mel Stride
I thank the hon. Member for Oxford East for her contribution and for welcoming the measures, albeit that she did caveat her remarks fairly heavily. She asserted that the Government are not doing enough, but bringing forward the change to the revaluation approach by two years is a £2.3 billion move. [Official Report, 29 January 2018, First Delegated Legislation Committee, c. 6.]
Letter of correction from Mel Stride:
An error has been identified in my response to the debate.
The correct wording should have been:
Mel Stride
I thank the hon. Member for Oxford East for her contribution and for welcoming the measures, albeit that she did caveat her remarks fairly heavily. She asserted that the Government are not doing enough, but bringing forward the change to the indexation approach by two years is a £2.3 billion move.
Andrey Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun Freezing Order 2018
Mel Stride Excerpts(7 years, 5 months ago)
General CommitteesRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the Andrey Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun Freezing Order 2018 (S.I. 2018, No. 60).
Good morning, Sir Edward. May I say what a great pleasure it is to serve under your—I think it is fair to say—popular chairmanship?
The order was laid before the House this year on 19 January and came into force on 22 January. That was to ensure that there was no gap in the freezing measures enforced against Andrey Lugovoy and Dmitri Kovtun in response to the Litvinenko inquiry report published in January 2016.
The independent inquiry chaired by Sir Robert Owen concluded that Mr Litvinenko was deliberately poisoned in 2006 by Lugovoy and Kovtun through the use of polonium-210. The inquiry also concluded that there was a “strong probability” that Litvinenko, an ex-KGB and ex-FSB officer and critic of the Russian Government, was murdered on the order of the FSB, the Russian domestic security service. Furthermore, the killing was “probably approved” by the then head of the FSB, Nikolai Patrushev, and the Russian President, Vladimir Putin.
In response to the gravity of those findings, in January 2016 the Treasury imposed an asset freeze on Lugovoy and Kovtun by making a freezing order under the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001. The 2016 freezing order had the effect of freezing any funds or assets that those two individuals held in the United Kingdom or with any UK-incorporated entities, denying them access to the UK financial system and prohibiting UK persons from making funds available to them.
Under section 8 of the Act, the duration of a freezing order is limited to two years. During those two years, the Treasury is required by section 7 of the Act to keep the order under review. In order to maintain the asset freeze, the Treasury was required to review the case and decide whether to make a new order. The Treasury has conducted such a review and decided to make a new freezing order.
The Treasury believes that making a new order remains an appropriate and proportionate measure to take. The relevant conditions, as set out at section 4 of the Act, are still being met: the Treasury reasonably believes that action constituting a threat to the life or property of one or more nationals of the United Kingdom or residents of the United Kingdom has been or is likely to be taken by a person or persons resident in a country or territory outside the United Kingdom.
The freezing order is consequently one of a limited number of measures available to the UK authorities to act directly against Lugovoy and Kovtun. The Russian authorities failed to co-operate at any stage with extradition requests or with the inquiry, which prevented progress on the Metropolitan police investigation into Lugovoy and Kovtun. There is little prospect of bringing them to trial in a British court.
We continue to believe that the freezing order acts as a deterrent, and as a signal that the Government will not tolerate such acts on British soil and that it will take firm steps to defend our national security and the rule of law. Were we not to renew the asset freezes against Lugovoy and Kovtun, we would risk sending a damaging signal that the consequences of murder in the United Kingdom are limited and time-bound if someone chooses to evade the UK justice system by remaining overseas.
Our relationship with Russia remains strictly limited because of the Litvinenko assassination and the illegal annexation of Crimea by Russia. We engage with Russia on a guarded basis, defending UK national security where necessary while ensuring that we address the global security issues of the day. We will continue to demand that the Russian Government do more to co-operate with the investigation into Mr Litvinenko’s death. That includes the extradition of the main suspects, the provision of satisfactory answers and our demand that Russia must account for the role and activities of its security services.
I urge the Committee to approve the order.
Draft Social Security (Contributions) (Rates, Limits and Thresholds Amendments and National Insurance Funds Payments) Regulations 2018
Draft Tax Credits and Guardian’s Allowance Up-rating etc. Regulations 2018
Mel Stride Excerpts(7 years, 5 months ago)
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The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Social Security (Contributions) (Rates, Limits and Thresholds Amendments and National Insurance Funds Payments) Regulations 2018.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to consider the draft Tax Credits and Guardian’s Allowance Up-rating etc. Regulations 2018.
Mel Stride
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David.
Let me begin by addressing the draft Tax Credits and Guardian’s Allowance Up-rating etc. Regulations. The Government are committed to a welfare system that is fair to the taxpayer while maintaining our protection for the most vulnerable in society. As in previous years, we are legislating to ensure that the guardian’s allowance and the disability elements of child tax credit and working tax credit increase in line with the consumer prices index, which stood at 3% in the year to September 2017. The draft regulations will maintain the level of support for disabled children in receipt of child tax credit, disabled workers in receipt of working tax credit and children whose parents are absent or deceased. Increases to these rates are part of the Government’s wider commitment to supporting the most vulnerable in our society.
The draft Social Security (Contributions) (Rates, Limits and Thresholds Amendments and National Insurance Funds Payments) Regulations will make changes to the rates, limits and thresholds for national insurance contributions and make provision for a Treasury grant to be paid into the national insurance fund if required. These changes will take effect on 6 April 2018. Re-rating will increase the national insurance contribution rates, limits and thresholds in line with inflation to protect taxpayers from rising prices. Before I deal with the substance of the draft regulations, I draw the Committee’s attention to their fiscal significance: they will enable the collection of £130 billion in national insurance contributions, which will work directly to support our national health service, pensioners and people who have been bereaved.
Let me outline the changes to employee and employer NICs, commonly referred to as class 1 NICs. The lower earnings limit of £6,000 for class 1 NICs—the level of earnings at which employees start to gain access to contributory benefits, including the state pension, employment and support allowance and jobseeker’s allowance—will rise in line with inflation to £116 a week. Employees will have to pay class 1 NICs at 12%. The primary threshold of £8,424—the level of earnings at which class 1 NICs have to be paid—will rise with inflation to £162 a week. The upper earnings limit is the level at which employees start to pay class 1 NICs at 2% on all earnings above a certain income tax threshold; the Government have committed to aligning this threshold with the UK’s higher income tax rate of £46,350. Employers have to pay national insurance at a rate of 13.8% above an earnings level called a secondary threshold. This threshold will rise with inflation to £162 a week, as it has been aligned with the primary threshold for employees since April 2017.
The Government are committed to reducing the cost to businesses of employing young apprentices and young people. The level at which employers of people under 21 and of apprentices under 25 start to pay employers’ contributions will rise from £866 to £892 a week.
The self-employed pay class 2, 3 and 4 NICs. Class 2 NICs provide access to contributory benefits for the self-employed, such as the state pension. The weekly rate of class 2 NICs to be paid will rise in line with inflation to £2.95, a flat rate for all the self-employed. The small profits threshold—the level of profits at which the self-employed have to pay class 2 NICs—will rise with inflation to £6,205 a year. The self-employed currently pay class 4 NICs at a rate of 9% on profits above £8,044 a year; that limit will now rise with inflation to £8,424. They also pay 2% above what is known as an upper profits limit; that limit will rise from £45,000 to £46,350 a year. The rate for class 3 contributions, which allow people to voluntarily top up their national insurance record, allowing access to contributory benefits, will increase in line with inflation from £14.25 to £14.65 a week.
The regulations also make provision for a Treasury grant of up to 5% of forecast annual benefit expenditure to be paid into the national insurance fund, if needed, during 2018-19. A similar provision will be made in respect of the Northern Ireland national insurance fund.
I trust that that is a useful overview of the changes that we are making to bring rates of support and contributions to the Exchequer into line with inflation.
Mel Stride
I thank the hon. Lady for her observations, and especially for her broad support for the measures that we are bringing forward today.
On the issue of the thresholds and the potential benefit to higher earners as a consequence of upratings in the future, of course at this stage we are not at the £50,000 limit, so that is not a debate for today. A second point I want to make, on the issue of looking after the most vulnerable, is that we are doing a number of things from a Treasury perspective outside the benefits system, which were announced at the Budget, including a national living wage increase of 4.4%. That is well above inflation, something that the hon. Lady understandably referred to. That will begin in April. Of course, the increase in the personal allowance will take even more people out of tax, as well as providing a tax break for more than 30 million people.
Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
The saving from the social security benefits freeze was estimated to be £3.5 billion, but because of increased inflation it is now estimated, according to the Library figures that we have obtained, to be £5.2 billion. Does the Minister think that the Government need to continue the benefit freeze under those terms?
Mel Stride
When looking at the impact of inflation on potential savings such as the hon. Gentleman describes, we have to bear in mind that many costs are going up for the Government as a consequence of increased levels of inflation. It is not simply something that can be looked at in isolation.
Anneliese Dodds
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way; he is being very generous. Is he aware that analysis by groups such as the Women’s Budget Group has shown that any benefits, particularly for the worst-off families, that might have come through the increase in the personal allowance and the national living wage are cancelled out by the social security changes? When those changes are taken into account, people’s incomes have been falling. Furthermore, the very worst-off families often do not benefit from the changes, because they are simply unable to accrue enough hours to reach the threshold in the first place.
Mel Stride
As I have been explaining, the national living wage increases and the rise in the personal allowance are clearly elements of this. We are also now rolling out universal credit, which will increasingly make sure that work pays. We believe that that is the best way out of poverty and the best way to improve living standards. To make some broader points, as a responsible Government we need to balance the costs of benefits with the compelling need to look after and support the most vulnerable in our society. I argue that that is why today’s measures effectively exempt from the freeze the categories of individuals whom we are discussing today, who are indeed among the most vulnerable in our society.
Between 2008 and 2015, jobseeker’s allowance rose by about 21%, child tax credits by about 33%, but earnings by only about 12%. The total spend on benefits in 1980-81 was £30 billion in real terms. By 2014-15, that had risen to £96 billion. We have to place this debate within the context of that overall fiscal framework.
Anneliese Dodds
I am very happy to talk about how the overall balance of benefits has changed over time. The most significant difference between the 1980s and now, when we look at the overall balance of social security, is the gigantic increase in housing benefit that has occurred over the period, particularly over the last seven years. We have seen a radical increase in the cost of housing, which has left many families struggling when their wages have not been increasing. That is the major difference.
If we were to look at a pie chart of social security in those two periods, housing benefit has driven most of the change—certainly not increases in support for unemployed people, where the amount of support that people get in relation to wages has fallen precipitously. It has fallen more in the UK than in most comparable countries. I am very pleased to put the debate in that context; it is important that we do so, and remind ourselves that changes in the overall burden of social security payments have often been the result of a failure to deal with structural problems, such as the arguably overheated housing market that we have at the moment.
The Minister mentioned increases in different tax credits and JSA. I do not believe that they have been above inflation. Certainly, unemployment support has gone down substantially. The element of JSA that is linked to contribution-based national insurance has substantially decreased over time. It is simply not the case that we are moving towards a more contributory system. Most analysts would suggest that we have actually had a residualisation over recent years.
The Chair
Order. Interventions should be short. I think that was about three interventions.
Mel Stride
Thank you, Sir David. We might be in danger of discussing matters that diverge quite far from the instruments themselves. To deal with the point raised by the hon. Lady, one of the most telling statistics in all of this is that in 2013—the latest year for which these figures were available—this country had the largest percentage of GDP spend on family benefits, including child benefits, of any country in the OECD. In the context of the economic challenges that we face, we need to be fiscally prudent at the same time as growing our economy, as we are. As the hon. Lady will know, we are near record levels of employment. We have the lowest level of unemployment for over 40 years, we have reduced the deficit now by three-quarters, and we go into the coming period after the Budget on the back of 19 consecutive months of growth. So there are many things that are driving up in the direction of improving living standards.
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
The Minister will also be aware that our record on helping the vulnerable is something to be proud of. The Minister has talked about reducing income inequality but we must also remember that many foundations—including the Joseph Rowntree Foundation—suggest that we have reduced relative poverty as well. There is always more to be done, but together with very low unemployment we can be proud of the fact that we have helped the vulnerable in society, whilst accepting that there is still more to be done.
Mel Stride
My hon. Friend is entirely right, and he will know that prior to the very recent figures, which still show that the level of income inequality is the lowest since 2010, it was the lowest in 30 years.
Mel Stride
I know that the hon. Lady is itching to tell me about it excluding housing and raise various points, but it is a recognised measure within the Gini coefficient. I do believe that this Government have a record of which they can be truly proud. There is more to be done, but I think we can all agree on these measures, to the extent that they are relieving measures for particular categories of individuals whom we all, on both sides of the Committee, seek to support. I hope that on that basis we can approve these measures.
Question put and agreed to.
DRAFT TAX CREDITS AND GUARDIAN’S ALLOWANCE UP-RATING ETC. REGULATIONS 2018
Resolved,
That the Committee has considered the draft Tax Credits and Guardian’s Allowance Up-rating etc. Regulations 2018.—(Mel Stride.)
Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Bill (Seventh sitting)
Mel Stride Excerpts(7 years, 5 months ago)
Public Bill CommitteesRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
I beg to move amendment 117, in clause 25, page 17, line 2, leave out “1998” and insert “2018”.
This amendment seeks to provide that the powers of disclosure cannot be exercised in breach of the updated data protection framework to be enshrined in the Data Protection Bill as enacted.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Buck. Amendment 117 is a tidying-up amendment. The Scottish Law Commission raised the point that the relevant data protection legislation for the purposes of the Bill will be the Data Protection Act 2018, not the Data Protection Act 1998. The amendment would simply make a technical change to ensure that the correct legislation is used.
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Buck. Clause 25 permits disclosures for customs duty purposes, but makes it clear that disclosures that would contravene the Data Protection Act 1998 are not permitted. Amendment 117 would provide instead that disclosures that would contravene the Data Protection Act 2018—currently the Data Protection Bill—were not permitted.
The Government intend that data protection safeguards will need to be complied with when powers under the Bill are exercised. Given that the Data Protection Bill is not yet in law, it would be inappropriate to refer to it in this Bill, but I am happy to assure the Committee that the Government are committed to ensuring appropriate data protection safeguards and will therefore seek to make the appropriate amendments at the appropriate time. In the meantime, I ask the hon. Lady to withdraw her amendment.
Kirsty Blackman
If the Government amended the Bill to specify “appropriate data protection legislation”, rather than “the Data Protection Act 1998”, that would fix the problem and ensure that the correct legislation is used. I am sure that the Minister has listened, so I will not press the amendment to the vote, but I hope the Government will make reasonable changes on Report or at another stage. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 25 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 26 to 29 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 7 agreed to.
Clause 30
General provision for the purposes of import duty
Anneliese Dodds
It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Ms Buck, and a pleasure to see the rest of the Committee.
Our amendments would qualify the powers in clause 30 that enable the Treasury to make, by regulation, a wide range of provisions relating to the imposition of import duty. In particular, amendment 81 advocates the inclusion of a sunset clause, whereby no regulations can be made under clause 30 after the end of the two-year period, beginning with exit day, when the UK is set to leave the EU.
The Government suggested on Tuesday that the Opposition’s contributions had been on the theme of greater parliamentary accountability, for which I suspect many of our constituents would thank rather than criticise us. Today, one of our themes will be the use of sunset clauses where appropriate. I hope the Minister will listen to our arguments with an open mind.
It is not just the Opposition who have argued for the use of sunset clauses in the Bill and more generally. The House of Lords Committee that examined the subject also recommended their greater use. My hon. Friends will elaborate on that point later. I will point out the Government’s inconsistent approach to this Bill compared with the use of sunset clauses in other areas.
The European Union (Withdrawal) Bill commits to ensure that delegated powers in many of the areas it covers will not be available in perpetuity but only for the period necessitated by leaving the EU, and yet even that approach is not adopted here. The Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act 2013—not necessarily an Act that I would otherwise support, because of its negative impact on health and safety regulation—appropriately suggested that sunset clauses could be a helpful mechanism to ensure that provisions are kept up to date. That commitment was placed into guidance on the conduct of impact assessments, which advocates that
“opportunities to use sunset clauses should be explored where appropriate.”
The use of sunset clauses was a core element of the better regulation agenda. In theory, the Government are still committed to that, although I was pleased to hear from the Prime Minister that she will remove some elements of it, such as the one in, two out rule.
There are many other historical parallels. Sunset clauses applied to legislation used during the first and second world wars, and to legislation dealing with a heightened terrorist threat. The lack of a time limit on some temporary legislation passed in the second world war exposed Governments to legal action in the late 1970s, when they tried to implement new control orders on the export of goods using the temporary legislation that had never been repealed.
I am not saying that sunset clauses are never abused. Arguably, in the US, President Bush sprayed them around routinely and inserted them into tax-cutting measures to try to hide the magnitude of revenue that the US Government would lose over time. However, they can play an important role when they are used appropriately, especially in trade and customs policy. The OECD’s policy framework for investment explicitly mentions the need to consider including sunset clauses in trade facilitation measures.
Antonios Kouroutakis published an interesting book a couple of years ago on sunset clauses. He shows that they have been used for centuries as a means of balancing the powers of the Executive with those of the legislature, especially when there is a need to develop parliamentary consensus and accelerate decision making when time is tight.
I am not sure about other Committee members, but I cannot imagine an epoch that fits those characteristics more fully than this one. The Government should aim to build trust across Parliament, not diminish it, and to achieve parliamentary consensus. I hope they will heed our call for a sunset clause in clause 30 and take it as the constructive suggestion that we intend it to be.
Mel Stride
Clause 30 allows the Treasury to make regulations for the purposes of import duty, which will prove necessary to ensure that the UK’s import duty regime operates effectively. As the Committee will be aware by now, the Bill contains several new powers to make regulations. As I have explained, although the Bill sets out the requirements for import duty, the need for more detailed rules will likely arise once the new regime is implemented. That is what the power in the clause allows for.
The clause permits regulations to be made to deal with administrative matters, the needs of which cannot be identified at this time because, for example, of unforeseeable changes in business practice. It is worth noting that the Union customs code, which establishes the current customs regime, provided powers to the Commission to make implementing and delegated Acts to supplement the rules set out in that code.
Amendment 81 seeks to limit the period in which the power to make regulations under clause 30 can be exercised to two years after exit day, as the hon. Lady outlined. The power will ensure that the UK can make the regulations necessary to deliver an effective import regime into the future. It allows the Treasury to respond as necessary to any future developments that might have a bearing on import duty.
The power will play an important part in ensuring we have the ability to address any circumstances that arise in the future that might require modification in the UK’s import duty regime, conceivably beyond the term of the period that the hon. Lady has suggested. It is for that reason that the power in the clause is not subject to a time limit. Amendment 81 seeks to impose just such a time limit of two years following exit day. If it were accepted, there would be a risk of limiting the Treasury’s capacity to make or require changes to the UK’s import duty regime in the future.
To pick up on a specific point raised by the hon. Lady about the Lords Committee and its assessments around sunsetting, it should be noted that the aims of this Bill are somewhat different from some of the other Brexit Bills that were referred to in that report. For example, while the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill makes provision for day one, with the understanding that further primary legislation will be made to supplement it, this Bill will be required in order to maintain a functioning customs regime and effective VAT and excise regimes on an ongoing basis. That is a key point. For those reasons, I urge the hon. Lady to withdraw the amendment.
Amendments 131 and 132 seek to apply the draft affirmative procedure to regulations under clause 30. As I set out to the Committee previously, the Bill ensures that the scrutiny procedures that apply to the exercise of each power are appropriate and proportionate, taking into account what could be covered by the regulations and the frequency and speed at which changes may need to be made. The Government believe that the negative procedure for regulations made under clause 30 provides an appropriate level of parliamentary scrutiny. The Government need to be able to administer the tax system effectively, for example to collect the right amount of tax from the right person at the right time. That clearly applies to the collection of real-time taxes such as import duties. Changes in circumstances, for example the emergence of a new category of goods or the proliferation of one means of importing goods, may need to be addressed in real time. Therefore, application of the draft affirmative procedure to regulations made under clause 30 is inappropriate. Unlike the negative procedure, the draft affirmative procedure will not be capable of implementing those essential policy changes immediately. Before the UK joined the EU, none of the provisions that could be made in secondary legislation in relation to import duty were subject to the draft affirmative procedure. For those reasons, the Government do not support the amendments.
Anneliese Dodds
I am grateful to the Minister for that explanation. However, I wonder if I could probe a little further. First, will it be possible for the Government to legislate in order to extend some of the provisions if necessary? Is that a theoretical or actual possibility? It is my understanding that it would be both. Therefore, it is not clear to me why he does not accept the sunset clause.
Secondly, the Minister referred to the need to insure that the Government can respond to calls for frequency and speed in processing new measures. He appeared to imply that that need might go beyond two years after the Government’s planned exit day. I wonder how many years exactly he envisages that we might need the last-minute decision-making proposed in the Bill. Will it continue indefinitely? If that is the plan, it might concern many constituents.
Mel Stride
The hon. Lady knows the answer to her theoretical question—whether in theory Parliament could, in the absence or with the existence of a sunset clause, none the less extend the provisions in the Bill—as well as I do. It is, of course, yes: Parliament can decide to do broadly that which it wishes to do in the legislative sphere.
How long we expect to rely on the provisions in the Bill and whether that will be beyond two years depends on a wide variety of circumstances, some of which will almost certainly necessarily be completely unknown at the current time. We do not actually know for certain whether there will be an implementation or transition period with the European Union and what the length of that would be, for example. That situation and the fact that, on an ongoing basis, we will need to make adjustments to regulations, potentially into the future, justify the measure.
The final point is that the clause and its powers do not amend primary legislation. They introduce new secondary legislation and the scope is restricted solely to those matters in relation to import duty. I hope that, on that basis, the hon. Lady might consider withdrawing her amendment.
Anneliese Dodds
We are willing not to have a vote on the amendment, but we hope that the Government have listened to our concerns, particularly on the need to ensure that there is appropriate review. The intention behind much of the push for greater use of sunset measures is the concern that these provisions could be extended to cover other areas potentially not directly connected to the UK leaving the EU, as the Government have said they wish to do. I hope the Government continue to be mindful that there are concerns that the measure is part of a wider attempt to allocate more power to the Executive, but I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 30 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Peter Dowd
It is a pleasure as always to see you in the chair, Ms Buck. I want to speak to Opposition amendments 6 and 82, which seek to amend clause 31. Clause 31 in its current form gives Ministers the powers to create a customs union between the UK and another country, overseas territory or multilateral body, including, for example, the European Union.
There has been much debate in this Committee of the possibility of the UK forming a customs union with the European Union after we leave. It is stating a fact that when the UK leaves the European Union it will also leave the European customs union. However, we have been consistent in our belief that it would be wrong to take the option of the UK forming a customs union with the EU off the table at this early stage of UK negotiations. Therefore, we welcome the Government making specific provision for the option of a customs union in the Bill.
There are a variety of customs unions, and an internal customs union between the UK and its overseas territories and Crown dependencies is far different from a customs union with a single country or a multinational organisation such as the EU. It is a welcome sign that the Government have considered that and ensured that clause 31 is drafted in a way to fit the scenario.
Although the Opposition accept the principle of what the Government are attempting to do, we once again take issue with the concealed manner in which they plan to do it. Under the measures in clause 31, the formation of a customs union would be made through the declaration of an Order in Council, completely cutting out Parliament, in effect, as I understand it—the Minister may wish to clarify that.
We have heard from Ministers on a number of occasions that their action is related to delegated legislation, for example, and that it is always commensurate and proportionate. Setting up a customs union, of whatever construction, without commensurate and proportionate parliamentary involvement is not consistent with the approach that the Government have taken thus far in relation to that commensurate and proportionate principle. It is simply a matter of the Government changing the goalposts capriciously. I completely acknowledge that the Minister may put me right on that.
This appears a rather strange way for the Government to uphold the central theme espoused by those advocating leaving the European Union—of “taking back control.” It confirms one of the central objections that we have made time and time again, and stated throughout this Bill and others, concerning Executive overreach and the centralisation of power. That issue will not go away any time soon. Conservative Members also have concerns about that.
Opposition amendment 6 would instead require a Minister to make a statement to the House of Commons on the establishment of a customs union, outlining the specific details of the customs union and how they were reached, as well as the effects of the new customs arrangements on trade with other countries and territories. I consider that—I think that most people will—to be the minimum level of parliamentary oversight that we should expect, and one that would ensure the Government are accountable to this House.
Several customs unions exist in the world, including the EU customs union, Mercosur and the Caribbean Community. There are more in the pipeline, with negotiations on potential customs unions taking place in the middle east, parts of Africa and between New Zealand and Australia. Under amendment 6 the House will be able to give proper scrutiny to what kind of customs union the Government have in mind. Is that a detail that Parliament need not bother about? Our view is that it is an important fact.
If the Government intend to keep the option of forming a future customs union with the European Union on the table, as clause 31 makes possible, they must consider the variety of needs of UK businesses, manufacturers and stakeholders. Customs unions are ordinarily designed to address trade in goods. However, the new UK-EU relationship will also need to deliver trade in services, cross-border Government procurement and, possibly, regulatory equivalence, as well as a host of other issues that others may want to comment on. I have made that point previously.
The debate on the UK’s future trading relationship remains controversial. The Secretary of State continues to shroud the progress of future deals in a veil of secrecy, under issues to do with commercial sensitivity, except when, as today, we are told there will be £9 billion of trade with China. The Government pick and choose what to tell us. We have consistently opposed such a level of secrecy, and we believe that Parliament should have the right to give proper scrutiny to future trade agreements and customs arrangements.
Amendment 6 would therefore ensure an open process, and a level of transparency around the negotiation and establishment of a customs union; it would ensure that the negotiation and implementation would be subject to parliamentary scrutiny. The amendment would also allow Members of the House, who bring diverse experience— a vast range of experience in many situations—and who represent a variety of key sectors and stakeholders, to debate an issue that is very important.
The Government would also be required under the amendment to consider the impact of the establishment of a customs union on trade with other territories and countries. That is an important factor, particularly given that, currently, the UK’s membership of the EU customs union means it is unable to enter into trade agreements outside the EU. Part of the issue is that we have seen what happens when Governments do not consider the impact of entering a customs union on trade with other countries.
We need only go back to the time when we first entered what was then the European Economic Community. We failed to take account of the impact on trade with Commonwealth countries, which then accounted for 20% of all imports and exports. The result was unhappy and damaging, with Commonwealth countries losing out. The Labour Prime Minister had to renegotiate better terms that ensured that trade with Commonwealth countries could continue. There is a history, and we need to make sure we get things right, as best we can. Parliament’s role is to tease those issues out, especially given the seriousness of this.
Amendment 6 is intended to prevent a scenario such as I have outlined by requiring Ministers to make clear to the House and other trading nations the possible impact of forming a customs union—internally or with another country or a multinational organisation—on trade.
Amendment 82 would limit the period for which a customs union agreed by the Government through delegated legislation could be in force. It would set the period at six years, after which the Government would have to introduce primary legislation if they wanted to extend the customs union. The amendment would be an important part of guaranteeing that Parliament, not the Executive, would have the final say in any customs union that was established. It would constrain and limit Ministers’ power and ensure that the long-term establishment of a customs union would receive the proper parliamentary scrutiny that such a move deserves.
Under clause 31, delegated powers could be used to bring the UK into a permanent customs union without a vote in the House of Commons. In that scenario, Members would not be able to assess the benefits of that customs union before the Government entered into it. There would also be no recourse to a reversal of the decision if it proved costly to the UK—other than through primary legislation, presumably, so let us do that first. Just as the Opposition have forced and required the Government to concede a vote to the House on the final deal reached in the negotiations between the UK and the European Union, amendment 82 would require the Government to put the formation of a future customs union to a vote.
There is of course a difference between a temporary customs union and a permanent one, and amendment 82 makes that distinction. While we accept that the Government may need the powers in clause 31 to put in place temporary measures as part of a transitional process, more permanent changes should receive proper parliamentary oversight and sanctions. We believe six years to be time enough for the House to consider the net benefits or costs of a customs union, be that an internal customs union with overseas territories and Crown dependencies, or a customs union with another country or a large, multinational organisation such as the EU. Six years would prove enough time for Members to assess whether that customs union protects UK manufacturers, supports UK businesses and works in the interest of the country.
As the Minister has stated many times, the Bill is a framework Bill. Clause 31 sets out framework powers that will give Ministers the ability to introduce regulations for the creation of a customs union. Our opposition to this matter is clear: while we welcome the Government including these powers in the Bill, as I said earlier, amendments 6 and 82 would guarantee that Parliament has the final say.
Mel Stride
Clause 31 caters for a situation in the future in which the UK has made an agreement with an overseas country or territory to enter into an arrangement to establish a customs union. The clause allows such a customs union to have effect for the purposes of import duty. It also allows HMRC to make regulations that might prove necessary to ensure that a customs union functions effectively.
As I previously set out, the Bill caters for a range of possible outcomes after the UK has left the EU. There are various circumstances in which the Government might wish to establish a customs union with a country or territory overseas, and to have that union apply for import duty purposes. One instance might be to establish a customs union with a Crown dependency—namely Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man.
The clause caters for any international arrangements such as this that establishes a new customs union. The clause does not provide the power to enter into an international agreement; such an agreement does not require a specific statutory basis. Instead, it simply allows the UK’s customs regime to reflect such an agreement by providing the means necessary to implement it. Once an agreement has been reached, an Order in Council will be required before it can take effect for import duty. That order can itself be made—this is a critical response to the remarks of the hon. Member for Bootle—only if it has first been approved, in draft, by the House of Commons under the draft affirmative resolution procedure. I am sure the Committee agrees that that will afford a high level of parliamentary scrutiny for each stage of the process.
It is likely that further provisions will be needed to make an international agreement effective for import duty purposes. The most obvious instance would be to ensure that import duty is not charged on the movement of goods between the UK and the overseas country or territory. For that reason, the clause allows HMRC to make any necessary changes in regulations.
Amendment 82 seeks to add a restriction to that process in two ways. First, it would limit the ability of HMRC to make regulations to five years from exit day. Secondly, it would make any Order in Council cease to have effect six years after exit day. Both of those positions are misguided. I am sure that I do not need to remind the Committee that establishing a new customs union with an overseas territory or country is likely to be a long-term process, not least because of the need to ensure that it reflects the UK’s new international trading relationship once we have left the European Union. It would therefore be wrong to limit the ability to adapt the UK’s legislation to a period of five years following exit.
More importantly, it would be rather perverse to make any customs union simply cease to have an effect on domestic law after a six-year period. As I explained, the level of parliamentary scrutiny that would apply to such a union is very high, requiring both an Order in Council and the draft affirmative procedure in Parliament, as well as all the potential debates and votes that may occur around the negotiations that led to that customs union arrangement in the first place.
There is therefore no case for time-limiting an agreement in the way proposed by the amendment. Indeed, it could make it far more difficult, if not impossible, to reach any agreement if our overseas partners were aware that such an agreement would no longer function effectively at a future point because of limitations on powers in our domestic legislation. I therefore urge the Committee to reject amendment 82.
Mel Stride
New clause 12 and its consequential amendments propose a process by which Parliament scrutinises and approves secondary legislation. The hon. Member for Aberdeen North referred to the process as the super-affirmative resolution procedure. I commend her on her creativity, but I must urge the Committee to reject what has been proposed.
As I understand the super-affirmative resolution procedure, it would initially require the laying in draft of any regulations, alongside an explanatory document and a declaration to which the new procedure would apply. It would also entail the appointment of a House of Commons Committee, which would initially have the power to recommend that more onerous procedures should apply to the draft regulations than those currently provided by the Bill. At the same time, those more onerous procedures would apply automatically to certain regulations, as set out in the amendments. The Committee would have the power to recommend that any draft regulations were rejected before they could be approved by the Commons under the affirmative procedure.
The powers of that Committee would be fairly wide, but at the same time, its remit would be relatively modest, only relating to the trade remedies provisions and regulations under clause 42 which deals with amendments regarding how EU law applies to VAT. I have already explained why it is entirely right that regulations for the trade remedies framework should be subject to the negative procedure. Clause 42, along with other provisions in the Bill, is necessary to ensure that the UK has a fully functioning VAT system once we leave the European Union. As there is limited direct EU legislation relating to VAT, the power in clause 42 is therefore equally limited. Given that limited scope, it is only right that its exercise should be subject to the negative procedure.
No case has been made that the existing and well-understood parliamentary procedures for making regulations are inadequate. To establish an entirely new procedure would mark a major precedent in Parliament and I cannot see any reason for doing so. That is particularly true in the case of limited regulation-making powers, which are the subject of the amendments.
Peter Dowd
Does the Minister not accept that this might be unprecedented, but so is leaving the European Union and all the institutions associated with it and all the mechanisms that go with it? That is unprecedented, so we need to have unprecedented parliamentary scrutiny of that unprecedented move.
Mel Stride
The word “unprecedented” could be applied to almost everything that happens in the future; it is always different to that which occurred in the past. I think it might be stretching Parliament’s patience if on every occasion we came across something unprecedented, we conjured up some unprecedented way of dealing with it. I really do not want to re-rehearse all my arguments on the relative merits, proportionality, appropriateness and so on of the various approaches that we take on those matters. To conclude, we believe that the various new parliamentary processes proposed would hamper the UK’s ability to respond swiftly to future developments and to provide an important but proportionate safety net to UK industry in a timely fashion.
Amendments 94 and 95 seek to retain the effect of direct EU legislation. Amendment 94 would do that by retaining EU regulations on VAT that will be brought into UK law as a result of the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill. According to the explanatory statement accompanying the amendment, that is so the EU legislation in the area will continue to have effect during the implementation period. Amendment 95 seeks to limit the power to exclude certain provisions of the VAT-implementing regulations.
The Bill enables the Government to respond to a range of outcomes. By way of background, the Value Added Tax Act 1994 and subordinate legislation already implements the majority of EU law on VAT, including the VAT directive. The 1994 Act as amended by the Bill will continue to apply post-EU exit. Few EU regulations apply to VAT and in the main those relate to single market reciprocal arrangements such as exchange of information. In the absence of an agreement, those will simply have no application—we would not want them to be incorporated into UK law for obvious reasons—which is why they are disapplied by clause 42(1). Removal of EU legislation that is no longer required or otherwise deficient is anticipated in the withdrawal Bill.
At this stage I will deal with the specific point made by the hon. Member for Aberdeen North about VAT, and how it operates now and might operate once we have left the European Union. She has raised issues that will certainly be very important—it is not the first time that she has raised such issues—to how businesses interact with what will then be the remaining EU27. I made it clear on Second Reading that we will look sympathetically and appropriately at the particular issue of the change from acquisition VAT to import VAT, including the change in timing of VAT payments with its effect on a large number of businesses as they trade with the European Union in future.
The note to amendment 94 refers to ensuring that EU legislation continues to have effect during an implementation period, but it may not be necessary to switch our provision on until after a transitional period or at all. Alternatively, EU regulations disapplied under clause 42(1) could be reinstated by the power in clause 51, which we will come to. What is ultimately required will depend on the outcome of the negotiations. However, we anticipate that the rules in an implementation period will be broadly reflective of the existing ones.
Amendments 89 and 90 seek to change the parliamentary process for some of the regulation-making powers provided in parts 1 and 3 of the Bill and their related schedules. For indirect taxation measures, it is common to have a framework in primary legislation supplemented by secondary legislation. The Bill establishes a comprehensive framework for a new standalone customs regime that will be underpinned by detailed and technical secondary legislation.
The trade remedies framework contains a great deal of such technical detail and the secondary legislation made under the Bill will comply with WTO rules, which is why we propose that the regulations are subject to the negative procedure. With that I ask Opposition Members to consider withdrawing their amendment, or at least the Committee to resist them.
Kirsty Blackman
I will begin by arguing slightly with the Minister and then I will go on to be a bit nicer to him—so it may start off badly, but it will get better.
The Minister said that the case had not been made for the operation of delegated legislation being inadequate. I believe that the case has been made that how delegated legislation in this House operates is inadequate, in particular by the gentleman from the Hansard Society who gave evidence in Committee. He was pretty scathing about the negative procedure in particular, but also about the other delegated legislation methods. Most of us around the House see the shortcomings in how delegated legislation operates, especially given the lack of scrutiny and amendability, whether by the Opposition or Back-Bench Government Members. There are major shortcomings in how delegated legislation works. I think that few people outwith Government would say that it is all working fine, because the Government have an interest in ensuring that measures have little scrutiny.
On the movement from acquisition VAT to import VAT, I appreciate that the Minister will consider it sympathetically. I am not sure whether HMRC would make any sympathetic changes as part of a public notice process or in some other way, or whether legislation would be needed to include VAT deferral methods or something similar. Whatever it is, it would be useful for it to happen sooner rather than later, and for the Government also to set out their intentions for how any scheme would work sooner rather than later, so business can have a level of certainty.
I was pleased by what the Minister said about increasing head count in HMRC to ensure that customs will work more smoothly. That is welcome, but the information that we have had thus far about the resourcing of HMRC has not been particularly in-depth; it has just been that head count will increase. There is no clarity about how those people will be deployed or what level of support businesses will receive from HMRC, for example, when they make both the change in relation to VAT and any customs changes that they need to make.
We expect that 132,000 firms will be caught by VAT on imports for the first time. That is a significant number of firms currently wondering how it is going to work. The sooner they can have that information, the better. We do not want negative impacts on our economy, although it is just the case that Brexit will have negative impacts on our economy, because the single market is better for our economy than any possible trade deal, even if it includes services. Although our preferred position is to remain in the EU and second best would be remaining in the single market and the customs union, whatever we can do to mitigate the impacts on businesses and on people who live in our constituencies—in towns, cities and rural areas—we will push the Government to do. We are trying to mitigate the worst possible excesses of the most extreme Brexit. We are driving off a cliff with a huge amount of spikes at the bottom. We are just trying to have fewer spikes at the bottom of the cliff. That is what we are asking for, particularly in relation to VAT.
I would like to return to these amendments and to new clause 12 on Report, so I do not intend to press them to a vote at this point, but I appreciate the Minister’s time and attention, as well as his comments.
Mel Stride
That was a thoughtful contribution, and I would like to respond to one or two of the points raised by the hon. Lady.
First, on delegated legislation, I am aware that there is a difference of opinion between the sides of this Committee generally about how rigorous oversight is relative to the measures to which the powers relate. The hon. Lady prayed in aid the Hansard Society’s evidence during the witness session, and I think that I am right in saying that the Hansard Society representatives stated that there was no circumstance in which the enhanced level of scrutiny proposed by Her Majesty’s Opposition throughout the various debates that we have had—that is not quite what the hon. Lady is putting forward—would appropriately apply to measures in the Bill, so I am not sure that this heavy version of scrutiny would necessarily be supported by the Hansard Society, although it would be interesting to know.
Secondly, I would like to address the point about Government not having an interest in scrutiny. We most certainly do, because it makes for better law. Even from a narrow perspective, there is always a Government interest in ensuring that there are no problems further down the line and that we do not need to revisit legislation to deal with the dissatisfaction of Parliament or, indeed, of Members of Parliament from our own party.
Mel Stride
New clause 14 and amendments 121 to 125 seek to add further parliamentary scrutiny of the way that certain powers in the Bill to make secondary legislation can be exercised. The Bill allows the powers in question to be exercised under the made affirmative procedure; the amendments would change that in certain circumstances to the draft affirmative procedure.
The Committee is aware that the Bill contains a range of powers to make regulations on a number of different aspects of VAT, customs and the excise regime, which will come into effect after the UK leaves the EU. New clause 14 is concentrated on a small subset of these powers, namely those that apply with respect to setting or increasing tariff rates, charging export and excise duty, some of the general rules for excise duty, and provisions under clauses 51 and 54, to the extent that they amend or repeal primary legislation. All those powers are subject to the made affirmative procedure.
In each case, the amendment would require a Minister who wished to exercise a power using the made affirmative procedure to make, on each occasion, a declaration that such a procedure is warranted, either for reasons of urgency, revenue protection or security continuity in the administration of the tax system. When a Minister does not make such a declaration, the regulation in question would default to the draft affirmative procedure.
I fully understand concerns about the inappropriate use of parliamentary procedures, but there is a compelling case for using the made affirmative procedure for the powers referred to in the amendments. We must not lose sight of the fact that the Bill is primarily concerned with the charging of tax and duty. Usual procedure when giving effect to changes in tax policy is the made affirmative procedure—that is a very important point in the context of the other examples I appreciate the hon. Lady making in this regard. The reasons for that are that any changes need to come into effect quickly—in some cases immediately. The made affirmative procedure is the standard mechanism for achieving that aim.
It is generally accepted that change in tax policy—such as when the Government change a rate of tax—should come into effect immediately. The use of the made affirmative procedure allows the Government to give effect to such changes immediately, in order to avoid a gap in UK legislation. The same principle will apply for matters covered by the Bill. At some point in the future, the Government might wish to amend the customs tariff quickly to reflect a change in international trade. That is vital for tax matters, and the reason why the made affirmative procedure is the norm for tax legislation. Because tax entails financial consequences for both taxpayers and the Exchequer, clarity and certainty are essential.
Although the intention of the amendments may be to improve parliamentary scrutiny, if they were adopted, they would create uncertainty for businesses, and that uncertainty would be in nobody’s interest. On that basis, I hope that the hon. Lady will not press new clause 14 and amendments 121 to 125. If not, I urge the Committee to resist them.
Anneliese Dodds
I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation. I question, however, whether the circumstances he just described as appropriate for the use of the made affirmative procedure do not fall precisely within the circumstances we ask the Government to demonstrate are in place within the declaration we are asking for. We say that it is possible for the made affirmative procedure to be used, provided the Government make clear that these measures are necessary for the protection of the public revenue or continuity in the administration of the tax system. Those are exactly the kinds of circumstances that the Minister has referred to, so it is not clear to us why he would not accept our amendment. We are saying that we do accept the use of the procedure in such circumstances as he just described: it is when things go beyond them into other areas that we are not satisfied with the use of the procedure.
Mel Stride
I understand the hon. Lady’s argument, but the matter comes down ultimately to the relevant level of scrutiny. The argument is strong that the circumstances that we are discussing, of a quick response and the ability immediately to set the tariff or change duties—things of that kind—lend themselves to the approach in question. If the central argument is about scrutiny, the question is whether the made affirmative procedure provides sufficient scrutiny. I maintain that it does. It requires in-depth scrutiny by the House, which would be subject to a Division if there were differences of opinion on the matter in hand.
Perhaps I may briefly pray in aid Joel Blackwell, the witness from the Hansard Society, who is getting a lengthy outing in our discussions today. I take on board the Opposition points about its being important, from his perspective, to maintain impartiality in the deliberations of the Hansard Society; we all respect it, which is why we were pleased to have him in particular as a witness. However, he did state that
“the Brexit Bills are going to have to be framework Bills—based on the fact that the legislation for Brexit is going to need some speed and flexibility”—[Official Report, Taxation (Cross-Border Trade) Public Bill Committee, 23 January 2018; c. 47, Q63.]
That is at the heart of our arguments that we are putting on these matters in general.
Anneliese Dodds
I shall not return to what the witness did or did not say. I think there may be a difference of opinion there. I am afraid I do not agree with the Minister’s description of the made affirmative procedure. In practice, of course, that procedure means that measures are in place from the moment they are laid, so they are immediately enacted. There need be no effective scrutiny by way of discussion by the House or other bodies, to allow them to stay in place over time. We are talking about a mechanism very different from what would usually be applied.
I shall not push the point. I appreciate the Minister’s comments. I just hope that the Government will heed our call for them to restrict the use of the measure to exactly the kinds of areas that the Minister just described—only those where the procedure is necessary to protect public revenue, or for continuity in the administration of the tax system. If its use goes beyond that, we fear we shall be in tricky waters. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Kirsty Blackman
I rise to support the amendments. I said in a previous sitting—one is encouraged to repeat oneself here—that one of the first things I said when I saw the clause was, “What constitutes a public notice? What does that even mean?” I am no more happy about it now that I have found out what the definition is. I am concerned that there are no rules about how such notices need to be shared. The Government probably need to look at putting into all laws that come forward what constitutes a public notice and what constitutes the public having enough notice of something.
With regard to this clause, it would be sensible for HMRC, whatever changes it makes, to ensure that everyone knows what those changes are and that all affected people are aware of them. Otherwise, we will have a situation where HMRC chases people for doing the wrong thing when they did not know they were doing the wrong thing, because the change was tweeted on the Prime Minister’s Twitter feed rather than put out in an accessible format. I do not imagine that the Government would be daft enough to put a public notice in a place where no one would see it, but it would be useful to have clearer rules about public notices. I therefore support what my honourable colleagues on the Labour Front Bench seek to do with the amendments.
Mel Stride
Amendment 140 seeks to limit the powers in the Bill to use public notices. However, a notable effect of the amendment would be to remove the ability to use regulations to cover matters that are dealt with in a public notice, which may limit the Government’s ability to package delegated legislation in the most effective way.
The circumstances in which provision can be made by public notice are well defined in the Bill. There is no power in the Bill to allow for provision that may be made by regulations to be made alternatively by public notice. I reassure the Committee that it is not unusual for public notices to be used to make provision in relation to the administration of tax regimes. They are typically used, for example, to make provision that is purely technical or administrative in nature; that may be subject to regular updating, including to take account of external factors; that may need to be changed swiftly; that is based on external sources; or that is not otherwise required to be set out in secondary legislation, but is included to improve transparency. An example in the Bill is the provision enabling the form and content of a customs declaration to be set out in a public notice.
Another effect of the amendment would be to disapply subsections (6) to (8) of clause 32 in respect of public notices, although they would continue to apply in respect of regulations. Let me reassure the Committee that those subsections do not widen the subject matter that public notices can be used to address. As I have stated, that subject matter is set out clearly by the relevant clauses and schedules. On that basis, I urge the Opposition to withdraw amendment 140.
Amendment 141 aims to require public notices published under the Bill to be made in a form that is accessible to
“all people who are likely to be affected by or interested in”
them. I sympathise with the amendment’s general thrust. It is, of course, vital that any public notice published by HMRC is made available in an accessible format to everyone affected. However, I assure the Committee that including such an obligation in the Bill is unnecessary. HMRC has extensive experience of producing public notices to communicate changes in tax policy to affected parties, whether individuals or businesses, as part of its wider engagement with bodies that represent customers. That includes ensuring that any information set out in a public notice is clear and accessible. Indeed, the Government already make everything we publish on gov.uk accessible and available in a variety of formats. The public notices published under the Bill will be no different.
HMRC also has good working relationships with a range of business representative groups and uses those channels to reach the wider business community. For example, it is normal practice to share advance drafts with business groups to seek their views. HMRC will continue to follow the same approach with its public notices on the changes introduced by the Bill. I therefore ask the hon. Gentleman to withdraw his amendments.
Jonathan Reynolds
I have listened intently to the Minister’s reassurance, particularly about the modesty of public notices and the undesirability of making more specific recommendations about their accessibility. I also listened to his point that public notices cannot replace regulation. However, the Bill states that regulations can replace public notices, which suggests that the burden of what is being considered is wider than the Government have declared.
Even in my relatively short time as a shadow Treasury Minister, I have seen relatively arcane bits of our regulatory constitutional apparatus used on several occasions, for instance to limit the scope of debate on amendments to a Finance Bill. Once powers are in place, they can be used for ends for which they were not intended when they were put on the statute book.
I do not intend to press the amendment to a vote, but I think that we may have to return to the issue on Report. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 32 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 33 to 38 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(David Rutley.)
Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Bill (Eighth sitting)
Mel Stride Excerpts(7 years, 5 months ago)
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Jonathan Reynolds
Welcome to the Chair for the final sitting of the Committee, Mrs Main.
As is explained in the explanatory notes, the Bill does not establish the rate of export duty, but the power to do so is contained in it so that it can be introduced subsequently through regulations made by the Treasury. As we discussed when considering amendment 1 to clause 8 during my first speech in Committee, it is vital to pay careful attention to the needs of manufacturers for the future of our economy. The Committee will be pleased to hear that I will not repeat that speech in its entirety, although I am sure colleagues would like to hear parts of it.
The representatives of the manufacturing industry to whom we spoke in our helpful evidence sessions on Tuesday 23 January amply illustrated why such a consultative approach is important, by raising many legitimate considerations to which answers are required. Given the amount of detail in the Bill that is left to secondary legislation, all manufacturers seek is minimal reassurance that their interests will be taken into account. They are not asking for special measures, but pointing out that we are on the cusp of a complex post-Brexit world and that clarity is needed as soon as possible. It has been the Government’s choice not to include that in the Bill, as we have discussed, but we need some middle ground to address the resulting lack of certainty, given how it has inhibited the ability of UK industry to prepare for that future landscape.
As we draw towards the end of the Committee, I am only too aware that we are becoming increasingly committed to the process of adding detail by secondary legislation. That makes it even more important for the vital consultation with manufacturers to be enshrined in the Bill. We will not necessarily seek to press the amendment, but I hope that the Minister, through his comments, can provide reassurance for manufacturers at this stage.
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship again, Mrs Main.
The amendment would add the interests of manufacturers to the list of factors the Secretary of State and the Treasury respectively must have regard to when recommending or imposing a rate of export duty. The Government acknowledge the wide-ranging impact that any future imposition of export duty could have on the UK economy and that of our trading partners. We would consider imposing an export duty only in wholly exceptional circumstances. Of course, in practice the Secretary of State and the Treasury would have regard to many factors. The provision requiring the Secretary of State and the Treasury to have regard to productivity, trade, consumer interests and competition is sufficient and broad enough to encapsulate the economic and strategic interests of the whole of the United Kingdom.
Taking into account the interests of manufacturers will often form part of the Secretary of State and Treasury’s duty to consider how export duty will maintain and promote productivity in the UK, but it would be inappropriate to specify an exhaustive list of factors in the Bill. The Government believe that the scrutiny and procedure set out in the Bill are proportionate and enable us to respond quickly to exceptional circumstances to implement an export duty.
Amendment 79 would add the impacts on sustainable development to the list of factors the Secretary of State and Treasury must have regard to when respectively recommending a rate of export duty or considering whether to impose export duty, and the rate of duty applicable. Where relevant and possible, the Government will take into account the impact of export duty on sustainable development. However, it would be inappropriate to specify an exhaustive list in the Bill. Certain factors will be relevant in certain cases, and their importance may change over time.
Amendment 119 would add the public interest to the list of factors the Secretary of State and the Treasury must have regard to when respectively recommending a rate of export duty or considering whether to impose export duty, and the rate that should apply. The provision requiring the Treasury and the Secretary of State to have regard to productivity, trade, consumer interests and competition is sufficient to encapsulate the public interest by considering the economic and strategic interests of the whole of the UK.
Amendments 142 to 145 provide additional factors that the Treasury and Secretary of State must have regard to respectively when considering whether to impose export duty and the rate that should be applied. Clause 39(4) is broad enough to cover the economic and strategic interests of the UK. In particular, I question the necessity of considering food standards, environmental protection and the welfare of animals when setting a tax on goods leaving the United Kingdom. The amendments would not achieve the presumed aim of preserving standards in the UK. Lastly, the interests of producers are intrinsically linked with competition, productivity and the promotion of trade, which are already included in the Bill. I therefore urge hon. Members not to press the amendments.
Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Thank you for chairing the Committee this afternoon, Mrs Main. I appreciate having the opportunity to speak, and want to speak in favour of all seven amendments in this group.
Amendment 13 is about the Government giving consideration to the interests of manufacturers, which we spoke about at length in relation to import duty. I have previously made the case about the disproportionate or differentiated geographical implications of some of the changes the Government are making and some of the rules that they will have. That is particularly important in relation to manufacturing interests, given that those are mainly in the north of England and in Scotland, rather than further south. I therefore feel that it is relevant to take this consideration into account.
We have received written evidence from organisations about sustainable development. They say that it is important for the Government to consider sustainable development when making decisions about import or export duty—we are obviously talking about export duty in this case—and the Government should do that.
Amendment 119, which appears in my name and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife, relates to the public interest. I am not sure that I agree with the Minister when he says that consumer interest and the interests of promoting external trade, productivity and competition adequately cover the entirety of public interest. I think that consumer interest is different from public interest in this regard, and a number of our constituents would agree if they came to discuss this issue with us.
Amendment 142 relates to producers. Again, there is a geographical bias towards the north and the more rural parts of the four nations of the United Kingdom. Producers are generally in places that are a bit further away from London, and they have a significant positive benefit on the areas that they are in. People tend to be employed in agricultural produce, for example, in areas where there are few other types of employment, so having regard to the interests of producers is important.
I take the Minister’s point that the clause is about export duty rather than import duty, where food safety regulation may be more relevant. However, it is still relevant that the Government ensure that food safety is high up the agenda, given our conversations about trade deals, chlorinated chicken and the possible erosion of food safety now that the United Kingdom is planning to leave the EU and the food standards that come with it.
Amendment 144 is about environmental protection. Again, it would be a good statement of direction if the Government explicitly included environmental protection in anything that they do, given that America is not looking at implementing the Paris agreement. It is making negative changes that will impact on the future of the world for us, our children and our children’s children. I would not want to see the United Kingdom go down a similar route in the erosion of environmental protection standards, so it is really important that this proposal is included.
Amendment 145 relates to the welfare of animals as sentient beings. Given that we have had discussions in the House about the sentience or otherwise of animals, and it seems that a number of Members across the House are less keen to stress that animals are sentient beings, it is important that we have this written into the Bill.
Although the Minister’s comments were a bit helpful, they could have been more so. It would have been more helpful for the Minister to say, if he were so minded, that those factors will be considered when making the decision. In fact, we have a list of four factors that will be considered, and there is no opportunity for that to be wider. If the Bill said “any other relevant factor”, for example, that would encapsulate them all and the Minister could stand up and say, “We will of course consider the public interest and the interests of food safety and of environmental protections when we are making these decisions.” We would have a level of reassurance that those things will be taken into account.
All the amendments are important. I accept that they are specific to export duty, which is relatively unusual and pretty niche, but to have those things explicitly stated by the Minister in Committee or in the Bill would be incredibly useful, rather than the short list of four factors that does not allow for a wider consideration of the issues.
Mel Stride
I will respond because, as ever, the hon. Lady made some helpful comments.
On taking into account sustainable development and the interests of producers, I refer the hon. Lady to the point that she made herself, which is that the clause does not prohibit any of those matters being taken into account. The point I made earlier was that the Government certainly do not see the need to specifically reference those matters—or, indeed, the many other matters that the Committee and individual parliamentarians may feel are important in this context—in order that we do not have an exhaustive list, but rely on the common sense and good public policy making of the people who make such decisions.
Duties, whether they are import duties or export duties, which are potential though unlikely, are a slightly strange instrument to use in the food safety context. It would be much more appropriate for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to look at those issues and use its powers to take action where clear breaches of food safety have occurred or are likely to occur.
Anneliese Dodds (Oxford East) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to see you in the chair, Mrs Main. I am grateful to the Minister for those remarks. I want to focus on amendment 79 and press him a bit on sustainable development.
There is an important consideration here, which relates to our discussion earlier about what will happen if the UK leaves the EU without a deal and falls back on World Trade Organisation provisions—something I hope will not happen, but that the Government have not ruled out. The hon. Member for Aberdeen North asked the Under-Secretary of State for International Trade exactly where the powers are to create WTO schedules. I do not know if the Minister has the answer yet—perhaps we will find out later. There is a pertinent issue when it comes to laying those schedules if we have to accede to the WTO as a new member—that is, if we do not conclude a customs and trade arrangement that means we do not need to join separately. A number of the countries that have joined the WTO recently have found it difficult to apply the provisions of the general agreement on tariffs and trade that enable sustainable development, environmental considerations, human health and so on to outweigh having low or non-existent tariffs. When that has been offered to one country, it should therefore be offered to all.
China’s recent dispute about raw materials is a pertinent example. As with all the most recent accessions to the WTO, when China acceded, it was required to submit commitments on export duty that bound it to keep export duty at its current rate or to reduce it in relation to different product lines. If that had been part of the general agreement on tariffs and trade, China would have been able to invoke the WTO’s GATT provisions that say that human health can trump those other considerations, but because there were separate agreements, it was not allowed to invoke environmental considerations.
Kirsty Blackman
I want to follow up on the point about the WTO schedule. I appreciate that the Minister wrote to the Committee about it, but he did not answer the question that was asked, which was: where do the Government have the power to lodge schedules with the WTO? The question was not: where do the Government have the power to implement such schedules? That is the question that he answered; I appreciate that he answered it fully, but it was the wrong question.
As far as I am aware, the UK Government have not legislated to give themselves the power to lodge schedules with the WTO in this Bill, the Trade Bill or the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill. It is not about the implementation of them; it is about the lodging of them. As my colleague on the Labour Front Bench, the hon. Member for Oxford East, mentioned, there are concerns about the impact on sustainable development and such matters. It would be useful if the Minister were to follow up his letter with a further one that answers that question.
Mel Stride
I thank the hon. Members for Aberdeen North and for Oxford East for their contributions. On the issue of sustainable development, I can provide the Committee with reassurance that the Government take that area of policy extremely seriously. As the Committee will know, the UK Government have stated their commitments to the UN sustainable development goals that were agreed in September 2015. A publication released on 14 December 2017 outlined the Government’s response to the UN SDGs and their relevance to individual departmental plans. Trade policy is explicitly referenced in five of those 17 goals.
The hon. Member for Oxford East asked me about the letter regarding WTO scheduling, upon which I believe she may still be waiting.
Mel Stride
Oh, it has been received. I was going to say that if it had not been, she would receive it imminently. I am pleased that my desire has already been put into effect. I would also be very happy to write to the hon. Member for Aberdeen North about the various issues she raised regarding WTO accession.
Anneliese Dodds
I am sorry about the complexity of all the different amendments, but they reflect the Members’ concerns about the Bill as it stands in these particular clauses. I will not speak at length, because many of the issues have already been covered in our previous discussions.
In relation to amendment 14, my hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde has already detailed why we think it would be appropriate to use the expertise and the opportunities for consensus building provided by the Select Committee system in the Bill. I will not go over those arguments again; suffice to say, I hope the Government will consider the arguments that my hon. Friend made, take the opportunity afforded by the Select Committee system and apply it here when it comes to setting export duty and scrutinising the setting of it.
We have covered many of the principles underlying amendments 15 and 16 and new clause 8. Again, we are asking for greater parliamentary scrutiny—this time in the area of export duties. I was thinking about how else I could try to persuade the Government of our arguments, and one issue I decided to focus on was that we have often heard the word “technical” applied to many of these measures. Of course, they are technical when they are about minimal changes to rates, or just alignments between different measures, but we need to appreciate that they can have a significant impact on our constituents, because there are winners and losers when we change the parameters of trade.
Capital is largely mobile, but workers often are not. Academic evidence shows that there can be considerable dislocation when there are changes to trade rules. It may well be the case that, in the past, those matters were often seen as technical, but they have had real-world implications. That is particularly important in our country, where the kind of active labour market measures that might have enabled labour to be more mobile when there are changes to duties that affect working patterns do not exist to the same extent that they do in many countries. Recent research by the Resolution Foundation suggests that people have become less mobile in their jobs, potentially because they do not have that help to alter jobs. It is important to consider these issues carefully when there are not those compensatory measures there for people who might be negatively affected by trade measures that alter the pattern of economic activity in our country.
It is absolutely right and proper that we seek appropriate parliamentary scrutiny of measures that could have a significant impact on the availability of manufacturing jobs, especially in our constituencies. I hope that the Government will bear that in mind. Yes, some of the measures could be described as technical, but they will certainly have impacts on our constituents, and we should all be aware of that while we discuss them.
Mel Stride
Clause 39 enables the UK to establish an export duty if it is considered appropriate to do so. Clause 40 sets the parliamentary procedure for doing so. An export duty is, as the name suggests, a tax on goods leaving the country. I used the term “considered appropriate to do so” quite deliberately. The EU has no standing export duty. Indeed, I believe the last time the EU imposed an export duty was in the late 1990s, in respect of wheat.
However, the revised Union customs code, which came into force only in 2016, maintained the EU’s ability to impose an export duty. The EU decided it still needed to maintain the option to impose one in the future. Therefore, in an implementation period, where the UK may be following the EU’s common external tariff for a limited period of time, we may need to retain the ability to impose an export duty in case the EU chooses to apply one. In the longer term, it is right to maintain at least the option to establish one if the circumstances demand, just as the EU retained that flexibility when it overhauled its customs code. In allowing for an export duty, but not introducing one, these clauses reflect the status quo, except with a stronger role for Parliament in approving any future export duty.
Clause 39 allows for the imposition of a new export duty tax and for replication of any part of the customs regime in part 1 as may be necessary to administer it. In recognition of the exceptional nature of export duties, clause 40 specifies that the first regulations made under clause 39, imposing an export duty, are subject to the affirmative resolution procedure.
Amendment 14 would require the Treasury to consider recommendations about the imposition and rate of export duty made by a relevant Select Committee or contained in a resolution of the House of Commons when considering whether to impose export duty. The Treasury will listen closely to recommendations from a range of interested parties, including relevant Select Committees and Members of the House. In addition, Select Committees already have the power to question Ministers on the policy within their departmental remit. The Treasury will answer any questions from the relevant Select Committees.
The Bill will ensure that the Government can respond quickly to exceptional circumstances and impose an export duty, while still giving the House a vote through the made affirmative procedure. Therefore, the Government believe that it is not necessary to include this additional requirement in the Bill.
New clause 8 and consequential amendments 15 and 16 seek to put in place additional parliamentary processes for the introduction of, and any increase to, the rate of export duty. For indirect tax matters, it is common to have a framework in primary legislation supplemented by secondary legislation. The Bill introduces a comprehensive framework for a new stand-alone customs regime, which will be underpinned by the detailed and technical secondary legislation.
The Bill ensures that the scrutiny procedures applied to the exercise of each power are appropriate and proportionate, taking into account the technicality of the regulations and the frequency with which they are likely to be made. As currently drafted, the House of Commons would have a vote on regulations introducing export duty under the made affirmative procedure. The Government believe that to be appropriate and proportionate.
To sum up, although an export duty should be applied only in exceptional circumstances, it is right that the UK has the ability to impose one if it becomes necessary, including if the EU decides to impose one for a limited period while we may be aligned with the common external tariff.
Mel Stride
Clause 41 will amend sections 1 and 15 of the Value Added Tax Act 1994 so that, on withdrawal from the EU single market, all goods entering the UK will be classified as imports. The clause will also maintain the existing link between the VAT and customs duty on imports.
VAT raised approximately £120 billion last year via 2.2 million VAT-registered traders—about 20% of the Exchequer’s entire tax yield. It is therefore vital that our VAT system continues to operate effectively after EU exit, whatever the outcome. Part 3 of the Bill covers value added tax and consists of three clauses that will be key to maintaining a fully functioning VAT system. The changes ultimately required will, of course, be dependent on the outcome of negotiations. Our intention, as outlined in our White Paper, is to keep VAT processes after our EU exit as close as possible to what they are now.
Under existing EU and UK rules for intra-EU trade in goods for VAT-registered businesses, the VAT on goods coming into the UK from the EU is known as acquisition VAT. Such goods are not subject to routine customs control or customs duty. Clause 41 will make changes key to ensuring that, in the absence of an agreement, goods entering the UK from the EU will continue to be subject to VAT. It will abolish the concept of acquisition for goods that enter the UK from the EU, classifying them as imports instead.
Clause 41 will also replace section 15 of the Value Added Tax Act, which determines when goods are imported for VAT purposes and who is liable for that VAT, with a new section 15. This change merely reflects the fact that the customs rules will be contained in UK rather than EU law. Time of importation and liability for import VAT will still be connected to the equivalent rules for import duty. No other changes will be made as a result of the clause.
Operating in conjunction with schedule 8, clause 41 will ensure that goods coming from the EU will be classified and treated as imports in the same way as goods entering the UK from the rest of the world. The application of import VAT will ensure a level playing field on which EU businesses do not have a competitive advantage over UK businesses.
As the Government outlined in our autumn Budget, VAT-registered businesses currently benefit from postponed accounting for VAT when importing goods from the EU. The Government recognise the importance of such arrangements to business because of the cash flow advantage they provide. We will take that into account when considering potential changes after EU exit and will look at options to mitigate any impact on cash flow.
Clause 42 will make changes that ensure that the status of EU law in relation to VAT is clear. The European Union (Withdrawal) Bill lays out the Government’s general approach to EU legislation post-EU exit. On VAT, we need to take steps to ensure that the regime works effectively once we have left. The clause will result in EU legislation being retained in respect of VAT only where it is sensible to do so. The approach adopted is as we envisaged in the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill.
Clause 42 will disapply EU regulations that relate to VAT, except the VAT implementing regulation. In the main, those other regulations relate to single market reciprocal arrangements such as for exchange of information; depending on the outcome of negotiations, they will be superfluous after EU exit. Removal of EU legislation that is no longer required or is otherwise deficient is anticipated in the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill.
The clause will, however, retain the VAT implementing regulation as a tool to interpret EU-derived law. This is required for ongoing certainty and consistency of interpretation of the Value Added Tax Act, providing certainty to business and the Exchequer. Where appropriate, parts of the VAT implementing regulation can be removed by secondary legislation—for example, parts specific to EU transactions that, subject to negotiations, will not be required when the UK is no longer a member of the EU.
In line with the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill, clause 42 confirms that certain rights and obligations recognised before exit day will continue to apply for VAT, while rights and obligations no longer considered appropriate or relevant for UK VAT, such as those that relate purely to membership of the EU, may be disapplied or modified by regulations. The clause also reinforces that other provisions of the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill will apply, particularly clause 6, on “Interpretation of retained EU law”. VAT law and policy has been developed to a significant extent through European case law, including through application of that case law in the UK courts, so UK legislation and policy are inextricably linked with the case law. The clause reinforces that EU principles and case law on VAT that were determined pre-EU exit will continue to apply when interpreting domestic VAT legislation. For example, it identifies the Halifax and Kittel principles of abuse, which have been instrumental in tackling avoidance and “missing trader” fraud and have protected billions of pounds of revenue.
Amendment 133 seeks to change the parliamentary procedure for the exercise of powers under clause 42 from negative to draft affirmative. The Bill ensures that the scrutiny procedures that apply to the exercise of each power are appropriate and proportionate. The procedures take into account the technicality of the regulations and the frequency with which they are likely to be made.
Clause 42 outlines how EU law relating to VAT will apply post-exit. The powers in clause 42 relate to residual rights, powers and obligations in relation to VAT incorporated by clause 4 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill and to the VAT implementing regulation. They are therefore limited to those specific areas. The EU law affected by those provisions reflects the fact that we are currently in the EU. Once we exit, some of it will no longer be relevant or could not be applied in its current format. Given the limited width of the powers in the clause, it is appropriate and proportionate that their exercise should be subject to the negative procedure. The Government therefore urge the Committee to resist amendment 133.
Amendments 83 and 84 seek to limit the duration of the delegated power under clause 42 to the period ending two years after the United Kingdom leaves the European Union. They are two of a number of amendments that would time-limit powers in the Bill. As the Committee is aware, the Bill is drafted to cater for a variety of long-term outcomes from negotiations on our future relationship with the EU. It is essential that we have a fully functioning VAT system on and after EU exit, including during any implementation period. The powers in clause 42 have a part in ensuring that we are able to achieve that. As we do not know the outcome of negotiations with the EU, or exactly when the final outcome will be confirmed, it would not be prudent to time-limit those powers at this stage. I therefore urge the Opposition not to press the amendments.
Clause 43 introduces schedule 8, which makes changes to the Value Added Tax Act 1994 and other consequential changes relating to VAT to take account of the UK’s withdrawal from the EU, should they be needed. The principal VAT directive sets out the framework for the EU’s VAT system. Unlike the EU’s customs regime, there is little directly applicable legislation in the VAT sphere.
The VAT system in the UK is set out in the Value Added Tax Act 1994. The main body of the Act sets out the general rules, and the schedules set out the detail of areas such as the scope of tax reliefs and registration requirements. As is usual in tax law, the Act provides a range of powers for the detailed rules—in particular in relation to the administrative framework of the tax—to be set out in secondary legislation, of which the Value Added Tax Regulations 1995 are an example. That allows us to react quickly to changing circumstances or to threats to tax, or generally to ensure its effective administration and collection. Appropriate parliamentary scrutiny is provided for that secondary legislation. Statutory instruments that deal with the administration of tax are generally subject to the negative procedure, whereas those that make more fundamental changes are generally subject to the affirmative procedure. The changes made by schedule 8 are fully consistent with those principles.
The changes made by schedule 8 remove the many references to EU law and EU-specific rules and processes. In particular, they remove references to “acquisitions” and “dispatches”, which would no longer apply to trade in goods with the EU. Instead, they would become “imports” and “exports”. That requires the removal of numerous sections and schedules of the VAT Act associated with EU trade, and consequential amendments to many others. The VAT Act contains many existing powers, which schedule 8 amends to reflect those changes. Most changes are therefore necessary housekeeping to reflect changes to cross-border trade arising from our exit from the EU and changes in the Bill. They do not affect domestic trade or the underlying principles of the system.
However, there are some areas where, depending on the outcome of negotiations, more fundamental changes may be required. For example, there is a new power in relation to small parcels sent from abroad, to be used in the unlikely event of the contingency scenario. That enables the transfer of the liability to account for import VAT from the UK recipient to the overseas seller, and provides for the necessary administration and compliance framework. There is also a power to govern the VAT treatment of goods entering the UK from another territory in a UK customs union, which would allow for a modified treatment for trade with the EU if that is the result of negotiations.
In addition, there is a new provision that enables HMRC to obtain information from businesses so that it can share that with others, subject to appropriate safeguards, if doing so is part of an international VAT agreement. That would ensure that the UK can give effect to agreements that help combat international avoidance and evasion. That power can be used only if the agreement facilitates the administration, collection or enforcement of UK VAT. That mirrors the power for excise.
Clause 43 and the associated schedule 8 are necessary to maintain the UK’s VAT system, provide certainty for the UK’s cross-border trade and maintain revenue flows as we leave the EU. They also, along with other powers in the Bill, provide the ability to make changes to reflect the outcome of negotiations.
Peter Dowd
Yes, two buttons: control and whatever it is. As I have mentioned, we are not alone in this view, which is shared by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. The Government ought to respond to our genuine concerns in this matter, and we will persist in asking them until they do respond to our genuine concerns and those of other agencies, bodies, organisations and people.
Mel Stride
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his invitation to do some gymnastics, but I do not think they will be necessary, because his questions are easily answered. He referred to my cut and paste button in respect of “appropriate” and “proportionate” and he is right; there is a cut and paste button for those terms, because they are extremely important. At the heart of this is his cut and paste button, in which he regularly says something along the lines of, “All we are asking for is appropriate scrutiny on these important matters.” So the argument has gone back and forth over every area of the Bill as we have ranged across the various clauses.
Moving on to the hon. Gentleman’s remarks about the House of Lords Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee and its comments on sunset clauses, and his specific question about why we would have sunset clauses in the context of the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill but they would not be appropriate in the case of this Bill, the answers are clear and require no gymnastics at all. They are that the aims of this Bill are different from those of other Brexit Bills.
For example, while the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill makes provision for day one, with the understanding that further primary legislation will be made to supplement it, this Bill will be required in order to maintain a functioning customs regime, an effective VAT regime—as we are currently discussing in the context of these clauses—and an excise regime on an ongoing basis. There is a fundamental distinction between bringing the EU acquis into UK law and handling that process, which is the principal rationale for the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill, and what is happening on a dynamic, ongoing basis in terms of a customs, VAT and excise regime.
Anneliese Dodds
Can I read from the Minister’s remarks that the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill does not seek to create new institutions in, for example, environmental policy or other areas, which potentially need to be just as flexible in many ways as the taxation and customs system? I am struggling to grasp the essence of the Minister’s distinction here. Maybe he could provide more information.
Mel Stride
I have made the point about the day one situation with the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill and the primary legislation, and so on, that will follow. I will resist the urge to start debating another Bill, other than to repeat the points I have made about this Bill. We are of necessity in the context of customs, customs duties, export duties, import duties, VAT, excise regimes and excise duty. We are dealing with a rapidly changing set of measures going forward. We are in the middle of a complex negotiation, the outcome of which is not clear at this particular moment. That is why in many instances in this Bill where we have had these ongoing repeated debates about whether a stiffer, tougher form of scrutiny is necessary, we feel that a balance has to be struck, which is appropriate and proportionate—to use my cut and paste button again—between the needs of parliamentary scrutiny where it is appropriate, and the ability to get on with the job and ensure that this country is match fit for life outside of the European Union in terms of its imports, exports and trade.
Anneliese Dodds
I am grateful to the Minister for his response. However, we have been informed that the reason why sunset clauses are appropriate in the EU (Withdrawal) Bill and not in this Bill is because this Bill needs a more dynamic system—if I understand the Minister’s comments correctly—whereas that is not necessary in the EU (Withdrawal) Bill. I am still struggling, because if we look at an area such as environmental legislation, we have the institutions that are created, the overall framework and then the calibration within it that would respond to scientific information—levels of pollution, for example. There is also an international context with different treaties. Perhaps this is something we could correspond about another time, but I am struggling to discern the fundamental qualitative difference between this policy area, which apparently cannot be amenable to sunset clauses, and those contained in the EU (Withdrawal) Bill.
Mel Stride
I will be brief, because we are beginning to go around in circles, but I am very happy to discuss any of these matters offline, or to receive a letter from the hon. Lady, on the points she has raised.
Peter Dowd
We will not press the clause to a vote, because we have persistently made this point all the time. I completely accept that it gets pretty tedious, but it gets pretty tedious from this side as well, when we keep on getting told that Parliament cannot have the scrutiny that it constitutionally and rightly deserves. We will come back to this point.
I have to say that other nations and democracies, much younger than this one, are perfectly capable of dealing with such issues, very detailed issues, without this sort of carte blanche approach that the Government seem to take, where they want to block every opportunity for us to scrutinise. They are not even prepared, when things might have calmed down in relation to the processes of exit, to give us the opportunity to check them via a sunset clause and that is deeply regrettable.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 41 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 42 and 43 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 8 agreed to.
Clause 44
Excise duties: postal packets sent from overseas
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Mel Stride
I thank the hon. Lady for those well-made observations. We certainly want to ensure that whatever transition there is to the new regime for small parcels is handled correctly, for exactly the reasons that she has given. I am very close to that as a Minister; in fact, I will meet Royal Mail next week to discuss exactly those points. I will, of course, be happy to share that information and take any further questions that she might have.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 44 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 45
General regulation making power for excise duty purposes etc
Jonathan Reynolds
I beg to move amendment 85, in clause 45, page 31, line 24, at end insert—
‘(3A) The power to make regulations under this section—
(a) insofar as it is exercised to replicate or apply, with or without modifications, any EU regulations mentioned in section 47(1), ceases to have effect after the end of the period of two years beginning with exit day; and
(b) insofar as it is exercised to make provision of the kind described in subsection (2)(k), ceases to have effect after the end of period of five years beginning with exit day.”
This amendment, together with Amendment 86, limits the duration of certain delegated powers under Clause 45 to periods aligned with other proposed limitations relating to withdrawal from the EU and to customs unions.
Mel Stride
Clause 45 provides powers to make changes to ensure the UK has a fully functioning excise regime after EU exit. The powers mean that the UK will be able to implement a range of negotiated outcomes. They also ensure that, after EU exit, we retain the same ability to legislate for excise that we have now.
EU legislation impacts on a number of areas of the excise regime. One example is the existing holding and movement regime for excise goods, which is based on a framework set up by the European Union. It allows the free movement of goods while ensuring excise duty is collected in the country of consumption. The UK needs the ability to make changes to the excise regime to reflect a range of negotiated or non-negotiated outcomes. The power will also ensure that, after EU exit and the repeal of the European Communities Act 1972, we maintain the same ability to legislate for excise as we have now.
The clause gives the Government a power to make regulations generally for the purposes of excise duty on alcohol, tobacco and fuels. It includes, among other matters, when the excise duty becomes due, who will be liable for excise duty, reliefs and the rules around the holding and movement of excise goods. It also ensures that, after EU exit, the Government have the same ability to legislate for excise as they have now. It does not, however, enable HMRC to set excise duty rates.
The excise regime is largely set out in secondary legislation made under various existing powers. However, we can anticipate that the primary legislation that underpins it may need to be amended. The clause allows any regulations made under this section to amend or repeal primary legislation using secondary legislation. It does not allow secondary legislation to amend or repeal provisions in the Bill.
Any negotiated outcome could include key administrative features such as the collection, control, management and enforcement of excise duties. Changes could also be needed in those areas if there is no negotiated agreement. The goods it could be applied to are alcohol, tobacco and fuels.
On repeal of the 1972 Act, we will retain the legislation made under it, but we will no longer have the power to amend that legislation. Clause 45 will ensure there are no gaps in HMRC’s powers to deliver the necessary changes to the excise regime as a consequence of EU exit. For example, the Government made consequential amendments to primary legislation in the last substantive overhaul of key excise secondary legislation in 2010. They relied on the powers provided for by the 1972 Act, which will not be available in future. The power could also be used to ensure that there are clear arrangements in place so that goods in transit between member states before EU exit are not subjected to additional controls or requirements after EU exit.
The power has, however, been limited in a number of ways. It does not allow any changes to duty rates. Clause 49 ensures that the power is no wider than necessary. It is limited to making provisions in respect of the excise duties on alcohol, tobacco and fuels. Those are the duties most impacted by EU legislation and EU exit. It is important that the Government can act quickly in case of changing circumstances, but it is also vital that Parliament is able to scrutinise the use of these powers. Clause 48 sets out the proposed scrutiny arrangements.
Amendments 85 and 86 seek to limit the duration of the power contained in clause 45 where it is exercised to replicate or apply EU regulations. They also intend to limit the duration of the power to make provision for excise duties in connection with the UK forming a customs union with other customs territories. The Government oppose the amendments. The Bill is drafted to cater for a range of long-term outcomes from negotiations on the future relationship with the EU. We do not yet know the outcome of negotiations with the EU or exactly when the final outcome will be confirmed. It would therefore not be prudent to include a sunsetting clause.
The clause provides the Government with the power to legislate for the excise regime to implement the outcome of negotiations. Just as importantly, it ensures that we can legislate for excise in the future—after exit—with the same flexibility we have now. It is essential that we have a fully functioning excise system on EU exit and the powers contained in the clause are necessary to achieve that.
If the amendments are accepted, after the relevant sunset period the Government’s ability to legislate quickly to respond to changing circumstances and future business processes will be limited. For example, the current excise duty suspension arrangements secure the movement of goods through a number of different countries, potentially over a large geographical area. On leaving the EU, the movement of excise duty suspended goods may be permitted only within the territory of the UK. The clause may allow further simplifications for compliant traders if the risks to revenue are considered to be lower in the United Kingdom.
Amendment 85, relating to subsection (2)(k), refers to clause 31, which allows for arrangements that establish a customs union, as we debated, between the UK and territories outside the UK to be given effect by Order in Council. If the UK forms a customs union with any other customs territory, the Government may need to adapt the excise regime accordingly to ensure that the UK can enforce and maintain the operability of the excise duty regime. For example, if an arrangement is made with any territory where free movement of goods is allowed now or in the future, the UK may wish to ensure that excise duties can be controlled and collected without customs formalities at the border, as is now the case. The requirement to make such arrangements may not be limited to the period following EU negotiations or the implementation period.
Clause 48 sets the procedure for making regulations under clauses 44 to 47. The powers in clauses 44 to 47 are necessary to ensure the alcohol, tobacco and oils excise duty regimes continue to function as required after EU exit. The clause ensures the use of those powers is subject to appropriate scrutiny. It also includes provision to streamline procedures where the new excise powers are combined with some existing powers. That gives the Government the flexibility to make the changes to the excise regime needed after EU withdrawal. A smaller number of statutory instruments will therefore be required and the legislation will remain accessible to users.
Clause 48 sets the procedure for exercising the powers in clauses 44 to 47 and gives further detail to their scope. On procedure, the clause sets out four scenarios in which regulations made using the powers will be subject to the made-affirmative procedure: first, where the changes amend or repeal any Act of Parliament; secondly, where changes extend the descriptions of goods on which excise duty is chargeable; thirdly, where changes extend the cases in which stamping or marking of goods is required; and fourthly, where changes restrict any relief or rebate. In all other cases, the negative procedure applies. That is in line with the existing approach to excise regulation-making powers.
A large number of changes need to be made to excise secondary legislation to maintain a functioning excise regime after exit. The Government plan to use existing powers as well as the new powers in the Bill. Clause 48(7) will streamline procedures to allow existing excise powers and the new powers to be combined in some cases. The streamlining applies only if regulations made under the existing powers would be subject to the negative resolution procedure—not where the affirmative procedure is to be used. Such streamlining gives Government the ability to maintain a functioning excise system after EU withdrawal. It reduces the number of statutory instruments to be laid on the same subject matter, making more efficient use of parliamentary time and limiting fragmented legislation, which is harder for business and its advisers to follow.
In some cases, that will have the effect that some provisions that are currently subject to the negative resolution in the Lords and Commons will be subject to the negative procedure in the Commons only. However, Commons-only scrutiny is in line with the convention that tax legislation is not subject to Lords scrutiny. The majority of excise regulation-making powers created in recent times are similarly subject to Commons scrutiny only. For example: the alcohol wholesaler registration scheme, introduced in 2015; the raw tobacco approval scheme, introduced in 2016; and the remote gaming duty, introduced in 2014. Members can be assured that, if the Government combine powers, they will not do so to make a trivial provision only to remove Lords’ scrutiny and bring this special procedure into play.
Amendments 135 and 136 seek to require that regulations made under clause 47 are subject to the draft affirmative procedure. Clause 47 gives the Government the power to exclude or modify EU rights, powers, liabilities and obligations relating to excise duty that continue to have effect in UK law after exit by operation of clause 4 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill. Some of those rights and obligations will no longer be appropriate after exit. Some may need amendments to deal with the outcome of negotiations with the EU. Therefore, this power has a part to play in ensuring that we have a fully functioning excise regime.
The power in clause 47 is targeted and proportionate. It is specific to the areas saved by clause 4 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill, and in addition, it may only be exercised in relation to excise duties on alcohol, tobacco and fuel. It is appropriate and proportionate that the power should be subject to the negative procedure and not the affirmative procedure. That reflects the specific nature of the power in the clause and the speed with which regulations may be required.
The Bill ensures that the scrutiny procedures that are applied to the exercise of each power are appropriate and proportionate. They take into account the technicality of the regulations and the frequency with which they are likely to be made.
Clause 48 ensures that the scrutiny procedures that apply to the exercise of the powers in part 4 are appropriate and proportionate. As far as is practical, the procedure that applies to excise regulations made under these powers is in line with the approach to procedures on existing excise powers.
Jonathan Reynolds
There is clearly a fundamental difference of opinion about these clauses. We absolutely support the right and ability of the Government to possess the requisite powers on exit to set the regime that is required. What is in dispute is whether those powers should remain on the statute book for a long time.
It seems entirely reasonable that the Government could come back to legislate for the power that they need in future, rather than giving themselves such a fundamental transfer that changes the balance of power between Parliament and the Government, but we may have to return to that question. Further groups of amendments are on the selection list that cover sunset clauses, so I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 45 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 46 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 47
EU law relating to excise duty
Anneliese Dodds
We have already discussed clause 47 to an extent, so I will just offer a couple of brief observations in relation to amendment 134. My reading of clause 47 is that it disapplies the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill provision that EU legislation should be copied into UK law, and empowers the Treasury to make alternative provisions on excise duty.
Some of our witnesses suggested that that could result in an unnecessarily complicated approach, and I do not feel that the Minister explained why the Government will not just retain the EU customs code during the transition period. The Minister has referred to a cut-and-paste approach. Yes, there is a lot of cutting, but then there is some spraying about of some elements and not others. It is perhaps not as well thought through as we might have hoped.
As with many Opposition amendments, amendment 134 asks the Government to include a sunset clause of two years for the application of these measures. We seek to ensure that the empowerment of the Treasury in these provisions is time limited. As my hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde said in relation to the sunset clause he discussed, the measures could be extended by Parliament if that was felt necessary, but having a sunset clause would prevent the inappropriate extension of the powers that the clause grants.
Mel Stride
Clause 47 makes changes that ensure that the status of EU law in relation to excise is clear. The European Union (Withdrawal) Bill lays out the Government’s general approach to EU legislation after EU exit. We need to ensure the consistency and certainty of the existing excise and VAT regimes to ensure that they work effectively after exit.
Excise is an important contributor to national revenue—receipts for 2016-17 were around £48 billion—so it is important that we have clarity on the rules, including the status of EU law in relation to excise. The approach adopted by this clause is consistent with the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill. It results in EU legislation being retained only where it is sensible to do so in respect of excise. There is a similar provision for VAT in clause 42.
Peter Dowd
We want transparency and openness, and that is why we are demanding sunset clauses, unlike the Under-Secretary of State, who would like this House to be as dark as Erebus. We want a sunset clause, and Parliament, the people and the Hansard Society all demand a sunset clause. We insist on sunset clauses and we will persist in insisting on them.
Mel Stride
Clause 51 confers a power on the Treasury or the Secretary of State to make regulations for VAT, customs or excise in consequence of, or otherwise in connection with, the UK’s withdrawal from the EU.
The Bill contains a comprehensive set of provisions to establish a stand-alone customs regime and to ensure that VAT and excise legislation will function as required on EU exit. The Bill does that through a mixture of primary legislation and powers to make subordinate legislation. Together the provisions will allow us to deal with a range of negotiated scenarios, as well as to prepare for a non-negotiated scenario. That will ensure that the UK’s customs, VAT and excise regimes function as required upon EU exit and thereafter.
The UK’s future arrangements for customs, VAT and excise will become completely clear only when negotiations are concluded. We cannot of course be certain what the detailed arrangements to be agreed will be, which is why the power in the clause is drafted as it is and why it is not possible to give an exhaustive list of the situations in which the power may be used. For example, we will need to use it to implement agreements with the EU that might involve alternative provisions to those made in the Bill, such as different amendments to those made to the VAT Act 1994 by schedule 8. Equally, the power will need to be used to address deficiencies similar to those dealt with in clause 7 of the EU (Withdrawal) Bill, to amend existing legislation to ensure that it is consistent with replacement domestic legislation; to legislate for policy decisions made in preparation for, or as a result of, a non-negotiated scenario; to transition existing EU trade remedy measures; or to legislate to deal with unforeseen developments arising from EU exit.
It must be noted that that the power is not an unlimited one: the scope of the power is, first, limited to VAT, customs and excise legislation; and, secondly, to changes that are made in consequence of, or otherwise in connection with, EU exit. As changes potentially required as a consequence of, or in connection with, EU exit may relate to primary legislation, the power extends to amending primary legislation, including the Bill. Given that we need to prepare for or implement a range of outcomes, including those that may differ from those set out in the Bill, it is appropriate that the power permits the Bill itself to be amended.
The affirmative procedure will be required for any use of the power to amend primary legislation in consequence of, or otherwise in connection with, EU exit. Any regulation that makes changes to primary legislation will have to be approved by the House of Commons if it is to have effect beyond the 28-day period starting from the day it is laid. That is unless clause 52 applies, in which case the relevant period extends to 60 days. The clause itself will make no changes but confers a power on the Treasury, or the Secretary of State, to make changes in the future in consequence of, or otherwise in connection with, EU exit.
Amendment 120 seeks to ensure that the power to make regulations under the clause is exercised only when it is necessary to do so. The Government oppose the amendment because it limits their ability to prepare effectively for EU withdrawal. The Bill is drafted to cater for a variety of long-term outcomes from negotiations on the future relationship with the EU.
In that context, the power is necessary to ensure that the UK can deal with a range of possible consequences of, or matters arising in connection with, EU withdrawal, and maintain fully functioning customs, VAT and excise regimes in a range of scenarios. Changing the wording to “necessary” may narrow the power in such a way that the Government cannot prepare effectively for EU withdrawal. That is because some of the uses for the power may be appropriate, but it may be hard or cumbersome to prove that they are necessary. For example, policy decisions may be made in consequence of, or in connection with, EU withdrawal where one option is chosen over others. That is “appropriate”, but it may be said that they are not “necessary”, since one option is not necessary in the sense that other options are available.
Anneliese Dodds
Surely in that case it would be possible to specify that one of the two options will be chosen and that that is a necessary choice between the two. I am struggling to grasp the need to avoid the word “necessary”.
Mel Stride
The point I would make to the hon. Lady is that if we had more than one option, one of them may be appropriate but not necessary, because if we chose that particular option there would necessarily be another option that could be chosen. The essential point is that the word “necessary” is not necessary, but in fact unhelpful—[Interruption.]
Mel Stride
It is difficult to sound exciting or entertaining when discussing a single word.
Mel Stride
There are moments. Amendment 97 inserts a sunset provision disallowing regulations to be made under the clause after 29 March 2021, while also allowing the Secretary of State to alter the date so that the date of sunset relates to the day of the end of a transition period. Amendments 98 and 99 are consequential to amendment 97. The Government oppose the amendments because they too would limit our ability to prepare effectively for EU withdrawal. We do not yet know the outcome of negotiations with the EU. Therefore, it would not be prudent to include a sunsetting clause at this stage.
Kirsty Blackman
I am feeling slightly sorry for you, Mrs Main—having to chair a Committee that erupts into riotous laughter, which is most unusual for a customs Bill Committee. I appreciated the Minister’s speech, but I think he is losing his oomph somewhat—[Hon. Members: “Oh!”]—although I am sure he will find it again.
We are reaching the end of our discussions. I am sure all members of the Committee are quite glad about that, because I am not sure how much more we can discuss sunset clauses. However, I have a few more points to raise about our amendments. Amendment 120 would replace the second “appropriate” in clause 51(1) with the word “necessary”, because otherwise Ministers will be given an incredible level of power to use their own discretion to decide what is appropriate. We have raised concerns before about the level of power that such clauses give Ministers. Changing “appropriate” to “necessary” would allay some of those concerns: it would be a stronger test and would require a stronger case from Ministers. I think that is a reasonable request.
Before I move on to Executive privilege more generally, may I address something the Minister said? When he raised his concerns about having a sunset clause that specified a date of 29 March 2021, he said that the agreement might be made very close to that date. That is incredibly worrying, given that we do not yet have any agreement or any idea what things will look like on exit day. The Government and the EU look likely to push the matter as close to the wire as possible, because it seems that there is an awful lot of distance to travel—particularly since the Government do not actually know what they want. If businesses face the same situation approaching 29 March 2021, after a two-year transition process—if the Minister wants to call it an implementation process, that is absolutely fine—and two years after having gone through a crazy period when they had no idea what was coming round the corner, that will be a major problem for them. It will be a major problem for productivity, as has been mentioned throughout. It is incredibly worrying that, at the end of a two-year transition period, we might still not be clear about exactly how things will look a very short period afterwards.
On what the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde said about the duty to check the powers of the Executive and not to alter the balance, I argue that we actually do need to alter the balance. I find this job incredibly frustrating in a number of ways because of the extreme power of the Executive. In a lot of cases, they do not have to use their parliamentary majority—they do not currently have one—because they have Executive privilege to do a number of things that I do not believe they should have the power to do. In many cases, only Ministers are able to table amendments, programme motions and so on, because the Executive have that power. They also have the power to set the agenda. That means that, for parliamentarians outwith the Government—whether they are on the Government Back Benches or in opposition—things are more difficult.
The current system of Executive privilege is completely unbalanced. It should be shifted towards the Government having to use their parliamentary majority to do things. That would make this a better place. I am shocked that more parliamentarians are not as enraged as I am by that, and that it is not brought up in the House more often. It is not a good way to run a Parliament, and it should be changed.
That is important in relation to the Bill because the absence of sunset clauses gives Ministers powers in perpetuity that I do not believe they should have in perpetuity. In some cases, I do not think they should have them at all; they should have to be adequately scrutinised by Parliament and have to get measures through votes. The absence of sunset clauses gives Ministers powers for ever more, and I do not believe that should happen. It may be that, 10 years down the line, a Minister decides that something relates to the UK leaving the EU and therefore makes what he thinks is an appropriate change. I do not believe that should continue to be possible.
That is particularly important in respect of clause 51. I can see some of the arguments the Government may make about other clauses—they may say the changes they permit are just tinkering with technical regulations in relation to VAT, customs or excise duties—but in this clause Ministers give themselves power to make more fundamental changes. That completely fails the people who voted for Brexit to take back control. The Government say they intend to support that view and to assist people with taking back control, but what they are doing here absolutely will not achieve that aim; it will concentrate power for ever more in the hands of the Executive. The Government need to think carefully about that.
Mel Stride
I thank the hon. Lady for her contribution. I will not rehearse the entertaining conversation we had about “appropriate” and “necessary”, but I understand her points. However, I maintain that there is a logical, lexical complication with—[Interruption.] Yes, I am getting drawn back into the debate again. I do not want to go there.
The second, pertinent point the hon. Lady raised was that the Bill, by not having the sunset clauses that she seeks, conjures up the possibility of us catering for a very late deal. Although it does indeed allow for that eventuality, that is not the same as us suggesting that we expect it to happen. We are balancing the likelihood of a very late deal, which I suggest is extremely low, with the consequences of that happening, which would be significant. In a sense, it is almost analogous to why we insure our house. We do not expect it to go up in flames during our lifetime, but given the consequences of that happening, it is prudent to insure. On that basis, we are applying the same kind of principle in this particular situation.
Kirsty Blackman
Thank you, Mrs Main. Both amendments would change the word “appropriate” to “necessary”. The first amendment relates to the powers that Ministers have over changing statutory instruments. The second also relates to statutory instruments, but in terms of transitional, transitory or saving provisions. We have previously rehearsed why I think “necessary” is a better word to use in these circumstances. The Minister thinks “appropriate” is better, so I imagine he will not need to speak for long in responding to my amendments.
Mel Stride
I will be brief. I am aware—it is one reason why I have been speaking fairly rapidly—that we still have a little to get through, and I do not want to deprive the Opposition of the opportunity to fully scrutinise what remains of the Bill. Clause 54 confers a power on the Treasury or the Secretary of State to make provision in consequence of the Bill. As the hon. Lady might expect, the Government do not feel that the amendments are either appropriate or necessary. On that basis, I hope she will consider withdrawing it.
Kirsty Blackman
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 54 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 55
Commencement
Anneliese Dodds
I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s support. Due to the changes to the deployment of HMRC in Scotland, the issue is very relevant to many of her constituents. I am pleased that the Government seem to be moving in the right direction. We have a commitment to more staff, which is positive, and the Minister’s responses to my written questions seem to focus more on additional numbers and less on redeployment, as they did in the concerning responses previously. Surely, given the potentially increased amount of activity that a new customs regime would necessitate, we need to be on stronger ground if we are to avoid a difficult time for British businesses and retaliatory measures from the rest of the EU if it feels that we are not upholding our obligations.
Mel Stride
Amendments 17 and 20 and new clause 9 seek to require HMRC to review its staffing and IT requirements, with the Chancellor to report that to Parliament before commencement. The Government oppose the amendments. It is not appropriate to legislate to require such a review, because HMRC staffing and IT requirements largely depend on the outcome of the negotiations with the EU and the details of the new customs regime, which will be set out in secondary legislation.
I assure the Committee that the Government are preparing for every possible outcome, and the activities required by the amendments are already happening as part of HMRC’s business planning. I am in discussions with HMRC on a regular basis, including with the head of HMRC, on the details of how we will ensure we have the technology in place.
We have had a number of conversations in Committee about the customs declaration service and the challenges of all the additional declarations that that system may yet have to handle, as well as the hon. Lady’s points on personnel. I am aware of the points she made on access to the various ports, given the changes to the structure of offices in the transformation programme that HMRC is undergoing. She is correct that the figure we will be looking at in terms of additional personnel is between 3,000 and 5,000. I suspect it will be nearer the upper limit than the lower limit, but those decisions are imminent. I hope that those reassurances will lead her not to move her new clause and to withdraw the consequential amendments.
Anneliese Dodds
I am grateful to the Minister for those clarifications and commitments, particularly on staffing. It is good to hear that the Government are considering ensuring that there are sufficient human resources. However, as I hopefully made clear in my remarks, I am concerned that, from an international perspective, we will still be under capacity. There may be reasons for that, but I would like the Government to explain them. We seem to be radically below par compared with other comparable nations.
When it comes to IT, the Government have now accepted that there are many challenges, and I understand that the CHIEF—customs handling of important and export freight—system will now be run on for a period. That is sensible, but it would have been good to get that agreement earlier, because not having that assurance before caused business some concern. Obviously, the CDS programme was announced before the European referendum—it has been a long-running process—but it is important that we recognise the additional pressure that that switchover will put on services at the very time a new customs regime might be coming in. I will not press the amendment, but we may move the new clause, as with a number of other new clauses. I am grateful to the Minister for those clarifications, so I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Kirsty Blackman
I will be brief. Jeremy White from the Chartered Institute of Taxation said:
“The only frictionless trade known to man is customs union.”––[Official Report, Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Public Bill Committee, 23 January 2018; c. 28, Q33.]
I wholeheartedly agree. The Scottish National party’s position is and has always been that we should remain in the customs union with the EU. That is the only sensible way of eliminating all barriers to frictionless trade.
The thing about having a free trade agreement that removes tariffs is that tariffs are not the only barriers to trade. They are not the only thing to cause friction at borders and problems for companies and individuals. The non-tariff barrier issues include things like stacking lorries, which we heard about in relation to the issue of roll-on/roll-off; how companies and organisations will make customs declarations; the digitalisation or not of customs declarations; and the standardisation of rules of origin, which is the biggest issue relating to the customs union. Those who are exporting to the EU will have to complete rules of origin documentation, having never had to do it before. If we do not have a shared external tariff, that will happen.
I am absolutely clear that this is a good new clause. We need frictionless trade with the European Union, but I am clear that the only way to achieve that is by being in the customs union.
Mel Stride
Amendments 18 and 21 to clause 55 and new clause 10 seek to require the Treasury to review the likely effects of the Bill on frictionless trade with the EU, and for the Chancellor to report that to Parliament before commencement. I assure the Committee that the Government are committed to providing information on the impact once the outcome of the negotiations is clearer.
We believe that putting those requirements on the face of the Bill is unnecessary. Any changes will be set out in secondary legislation, and Parliament will of course have the ability to consider, scrutinise and decide upon the content of that legislation in the normal way. Furthermore, any review that is carried out before the outcome of the negotiations will necessarily be somewhat speculative.
Peter Dowd
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Kirsty Blackman
I have significant concerns about the way this clause is going to work, given that the UK Government’s priority in the Border Force has been immigration rather than customs staff. Therefore, there has been an erosion of the customs staff who have got experience and understanding of the frontline. I am not yet convinced. Although the Government are talking about putting extra people into HMRC, I have not heard enough about equivalent extra staff being put into the Border Force so that it can appropriately police things in relation to customs. I have significant concerns about the border experience, and I note that that is not just on the south coast of England. We have borders when things come in on international flights or ports outside the south coast of England. It needs to be taken over the whole geographical spread of the United Kingdom.
Mel Stride
Amendments 19 and 22 to clause 55 and new clause 11 seek to require HMRC to review the likely effects of the Bill on the border experience of importers and exporters, and those engaged in associated economic activities, and the Chancellor to report that to Parliament before commencement of the Bill. The reasons why the Government will resist them are similar to the reasons given for resisting the last group of amendments. It is not appropriate to legislate for such a review, because the experience of businesses at the border will depend on the outcome of the negotiations with the EU, the resulting details of the new customs regime and the resulting changes needed to maintain a fully functioning and legally operable VAT and excise regimes.
To respond to the specific points the hon. Member for Aberdeen North made about the Border Force, it is absolutely vital, as she has suggested, that we have appropriate resource. Of course, that is a Home Office matter and not within the direct remit of HMRC or the immediate scope of the Bill, but I reassure her that we are working across Government and closely with the Home Office to ensure that, whatever occurs in the negotiation and whatever the results for our day one arrangements, we will be ready in terms of both the Border Force and Customs and Excise.
Peter Dowd
The Minister has heard what I have to say. We will not be pressing the amendment, although we will press the new clause. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Kirsty Blackman
This is the last section on which I will be moving anything. Amendment 102 is a consequential amendment and relates to amendment 103. Amendment 103 requires an impact assessment to take place on the changes of the EU VAT area, as we have rehearsed, and the move from acquisition VAT to import VAT.
I am neither convinced nor clear that the Government have adequately undertaken an assessment of the impact. Some 132,000 new businesses will come into paying import VAT for the first time. I do not know that the Government are aware of how much of an impact that will have on those businesses. I am not yet at the stage where I believe the Government have done enough impact assessments.
I was pleased that the Minister talked earlier about looking sympathetically at having a system of VAT deferral or something of that sort to improve cashflow issues for businesses. I appreciate his saying that and look forward to more details about how that will work, so that businesses can make adequate plans. That is not the only issue that occurs on leaving the EU VAT area. For the other issues mentioned earlier, for example on triangulation simplification where companies would have to register for VAT in more countries, I am again not convinced that the Government have adequately assessed the impact they will have on businesses. They are therefore not in a position to explain that impact to businesses and assist them in mitigating it.
On new clause 13, I appreciate that the Minister has said he is sympathetic to making changes on the VAT deferral scheme, but I intend to press new clause 13 to a vote so that it is written on the Bill and is not just words from the Minister that the Government agree to a VAT deferral scheme. The new clause would ensure that. I do not intend to push amendments 102 and 103 to the vote, but I may seek to return to amendment 103 on Report.
Mel Stride
I will start by addressing new clause 13. The hon. Lady will be aware that the issue of the potential move from acquisition VAT to import VAT and its effect on cash flow for businesses was raised by the Chancellor in the autumn Budget. We are very aware of that, as the Chancellor has indicated.
On Second Reading, from memory, I was intervened on by my right hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan), the Chair of the Treasury Committee, who raised the same issue. Prior to that, I had had a meeting with her to discuss the matter in some detail. I was able to provide her with an assurance on the Floor of the House that was sympathetic—I think that word was used—to the issue. We certainly do not wish for a situation in which we are significantly damaging businesses as a consequence of any changes. Indeed, in this debate I have clarified that, under the terms of section 38 of the Value Added Tax Act 1994, we have the powers to make the kind of changes that my right hon. Friend and I would probably agree are appropriate.
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for not pressing amendments 102 and 103, which seek to prevent the Government legislating for a future outside the EU VAT area before we produce an impact assessment on the effects that leaving the EU will have on imports.
Peter Dowd
I welcome that point. I would speak to the amendment but I will not, given the time. Does the Minister have any indication what the timetable might be for that structure in relation to deferrals, or can he come back to us?
Mel Stride
That question prompts another question: at what point do we reach that matter in the negotiations with the European Union? It is not possible to answer that question because it depends on when we get our deal and where the parameters around VAT, imports and exports are. All those matters land in that negotiation. I reiterate the reassurance that we have the ability and the powers within the VAT Act to act accordingly and we have a firm intention to ensure that we deal with the concern we have all identified.
Kirsty Blackman
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 55 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 56 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
New Clause 1
Setting the customs tariff: enhanced parliamentary procedure
“(1) This section applies to—
(a) the first regulations to be made under section 8, and
(b) any other regulations to be made under that section the effect of which is an increase in the amount of import duty payable under the customs tariff in a standard case (within the meaning of that section).
(2) No regulations to which this section applies may be made by the Treasury in exercise of the duty in section 8(1) except in accordance with the steps set out in this section.
(3) The first step is that a Minister of the Crown must lay before the House of Commons a draft of the regulations that it is proposed be made
(4) The second step is that a Minister of the Crown must make a motion for a resolution in the House of Commons setting out, in respect of proposed regulations of which a draft has been laid in accordance with subsection (3)—
(a) the rate of import duty applicable to goods falling within a code given in regulations previously made under section 8 or in the draft of the regulations laid in accordance with subsection (3);
(b) anything of a kind mentioned in section 8(3)(a) or (b) by reference to which the amount of any import duty applicable to any goods is proposed to be determined; and
(c) the meaning of any relevant expression used in the motion.
(5) The third step is that the House of Commons passes a resolution arising from the motion made in the form specified in subsection (4) (whether in the form of that motion or as amended).
(6) The fourth step is that the regulations that may then be made must, in respect of any matters specified in subsection (4)(a) to (c), give effect to the terms of the resolution referred to in subsection (5).”—(Peter Dowd.)
This new clause establishes a system of enhanced parliamentary procedure for regulations setting the customs tariff, with a requirement for the House of Commons to pass an amendable resolution authorising the rate of import duty on particular goods.
Brought up, and read the First time.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time.
Mel Stride
On a point of order, Mrs Main. Is this an appropriate moment to say a few words to thank the Committee? Perhaps I should begin by thanking you, Mrs Main, and Ms Buck, for the exemplary and impartial way in which you have both chaired our proceedings. I also thank all members of the Committee for the convivial and positive way in which we have conducted our proceedings, occasionally with a little levity creeping in, which is always a nice sign, I think.
Mel Stride
Yes, Mrs Main, necessary and appropriate levity has been put into our proceedings. I thank all Members for their contributions, as I always say on this occasion, particularly those on our side. When my hon. Friend the Member for York Outer intervened, that was a stellar and special moment. It was a highlight on our side of the Committee.
I thank the Opposition Front-Bench spokesperson, the hon. Member for Bootle, before he disappears into the sunset—probably under the auspices of his own sunset clause. I thank him for his usual good humour. His Henry VIII quote was particularly good, but I am convinced that, as with all the others, he probably just makes them up. I can assure the hon. Member for Aberdeen North I will get my oomph back on Report. My mojo will be in fine form. I thank the hon. Member for Oxford East for the assiduous approach that she has taken to her duties on the Committee and for not mentioning on this occasion the dead dog and the bicycle, for which I am ever so grateful.
I thank the Treasury and HMRC, in particular my officials, Tom Doherty, Matthew Parry, Emily Marsh and Fraser Eccles, for all the support that they have given to me personally, and the other Departments, the Department for International Trade and the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, that have contributed to the process. I thank our new Minister, the Under-Secretary of State for International Trade, my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness, who put in a fabulous performance on his first Committee as a Minister, with great force and great style. I thank the Whips on both sides, who are the unsung heroes. I always thank the Whips because I care about my future and my career.
I thank Hansard and the Doorkeepers. I also extend a heartfelt thank you from the whole Committee to the witnesses who appeared before us—perhaps specifically to Joel Blackwell, who has emerged as the most celebrated witness of our proceedings. I thank them all for having contributed in such a positive way.
Peter Dowd
Further to that point of order, Mrs Main. I thank you and Ms Buck for the eloquence in which you have chaired the meeting, and for your forbearance. I thank the Clerks, Hansard and the Doorkeepers for their sterling work; they have even more forbearance. I thank colleagues who have undertaken scrutiny in a forensic, good-humoured and professional fashion, and that includes the Members on the Government Benches. I also thank all our staff, Sam Goodman, Tom Peters, Sophia Morrell and Jack Jenkins, for their hard work on the Bill.
The whole debate has been pretty commensurate and pretty good. I finish with a couple of things: the Government epitaph will be “Down with sunsets!”; and, finally, “Parting is such sweet sorrow”.