Welfare Reform Bill Debate
Full Debate: Read Full DebateDepartment: Department for Work and Pensions
Liam Byrne
Main Page: Liam Byrne (Labour - Birmingham Hodge Hill and Solihull North)Department Debates - View all Liam Byrne's debates with the Department for Work and Pensions
Welfare Reform Bill
Liam Byrne Excerpts(12 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Chris Grayling
It relates to someone who has not lived in the UK for most of the past 15 years, although she is a British national and has a link to the UK. The implication of the court case is that somebody who has a link to the UK but who has had no recent contact with it is none the less entitled to receive benefits. That is where we disagree with the European Court and why we think that its decision was wrong.
We think that the best way to close this door is to abolish the ESA youth provision, but it is not the only reason we are abolishing the youth provision. It is by no means the sole rationale for doing so, but as a matter of principle it is our view that we should make every effort to ensure that our benefits are paid only to those whom we think should be paid UK benefits—those who have recent connections to, or have lived in, the United Kingdom.
Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab)
I want to try to follow the Minister’s logic a step further. Is he going on to propose that British citizens who have retired abroad—for example, to Spain—will not be able to receive their pensions in the years to come? Is that the logical extension of his argument?
Chris Grayling
Of course it is not. We are saying that somebody should not be able to claim a benefit for the first time having not lived in the United Kingdom for many years. That is the argument that we put to the European Court, and it is a principle that we stand by. I emphasise that that is one of the reasons, but by no means the only reason, why we are taking this measure.
Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)
Obviously, the hon. Gentleman is not concerned with the facts at all. Cancer does not respect political boundaries. Do you not think that colleagues on this side of the House have suffered in the same way that you have? Such a person as you have described would clearly be in the support group.
Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab)
Follow the debate; you should know what you are voting for!
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. We do not need Front Benchers to join in as well. We have enough with the Back Benchers.
Chris Grayling
I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman is simply out of touch with the reality of what is happening in our country. He talks about the impact of the cap on children. But children are already having their life chances and opportunities damaged by growing up in households and communities in which no one is working. That is what we are seeking to change. The former Archbishop of Canterbury, Lord Carey, said last week:
“If we cannot make the rewards of hard work more appealing than a life spent on the dole then we will have failed a generation of children.”
That is the reality that we face today and it is why we seek to change the way in which our welfare state operates. The Government clearly have the support of the British people on the cap. If we do not reject the Lords amendment, the public will not understand why. This is a reform that is long overdue and the Government are determined to deliver it.
Mr Byrne
I rise to speak in favour of the amendment in my name and those of my right hon. and hon. Friends. I shall state at the outset that we wish to seek a Division on that amendment, and I am disappointed that the Government have tried to invoke financial privilege to defend against a vote on our amendment in the House of Lords, where they know very well that they will once again be defeated. I am, however, grateful that the Minister has incorporated half of our amendment, by ensuring that there will be a grace period of nine months, but I want to set out the dangerous flaws that have now been exposed in the “one cap fits all” approach and also set out what I think would be a better approach.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr Duncan Smith
The right hon. Gentleman says that he is upset that we are invoking financial privilege. Will he tell us why, throughout all the debates in the Lords and here, his party has not tabled an amendment to regionalise the cap at any stage, but instead chose to knock out child benefit?
Mr Byrne
Of course. The Labour party advanced the position in our amendment not, as the Minister said in a slip of the tongue, 10 years ago but well over one year ago. It was advanced by my predecessor and the Leader of the Opposition. During the passage of the Bill, we have talked extensively about the risks—[Interruption.] The Secretary of State might like to listen to the answer. We have given the Government ample opportunity to put in place safeguards against the dangers of their having to spend a lot of money patching up what is being done this afternoon. In the absence of those safeguards, I want to propose to him a better approach.
Mr Byrne
In a moment. I will give way to him as often as he wants.
We have set out a clear alternative approach. The Government have today burned one third of the savings that they proposed for this measure because they got the policy wrong. Today, by conceding a nine-month grace period, they have incorporated part of our amendment, but now I want to show the Secretary of State a better way of instituting a principle on which I think we both agree.
Mr Duncan Smith
Throughout this debate, we have seen a game played out by the Opposition: on the one hand they are in favour but then they vote against everything. I cannot understand why, if the right hon. Gentleman takes this principled position and if Labour has believed in it for a while, he has not previously advanced this amendment, which he apparently believes so passionately now needs advancing? Why not in the Lords? Why not here before? There is no answer except that he is trying to indicate one thing and run away with the other.
Mr Byrne
I spent much of this morning perusing the helpful Conservative party briefing on the Bill—I am sure that Government Members have a copy—page 2 of which contains a useful summary explaining how I, the shadow Business Secretary, the shadow work Minister and the Leader of the Opposition have set out clearly their support, in principle, for the Bill. However, we want to give the Government the chance to institute important safeguards—for example, not allowing the cap to kick in if someone has not been offered the chance to work and instituting new safeguards for homelessness, on which they have had to spend a lot of money today. The Government have not listened to any of that, and now they have had to come back to the House accepting half of Labour’s amendment and spending a huge amount of money, thus burning many of their savings.
Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con)
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Tracey Crouch
I am grateful to the shadow Secretary of State for giving way. Having read the Conservative briefing, he will recall saying last week that he thought the benefit cap right in principle. Why, then, will he vote against it this evening?
Mr Byrne
We will seek a vote on Labour’s amendment on Labour’s benefit cap, and we are disappointed that the Government are trying to invoke financial privilege to prevent us from having that vote again in the House of Lords, where the Government know they will lose.
It is important to start by debating a principle on which both sides agree—the principle that people should be better off in work. Back in 1971, my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) pointed out the dangers of the poverty trap and the possibility of changes in the tax and benefits system resulting in people not being better off in work. Frankly, little progress was made in tackling that problem during the 1980s and the 1990s, which was why the institution of tax credits under Labour was such an important part of our welfare reform. Together with the national minimum wage, it ensured that people were better off in work. It was wise, therefore, for the Government to accept the principle of tax credits in their proposed changes to universal credit. That, too, is a principle that we support, and it is why we are in favour of a benefit cap, but we would like one that does not backfire and one that works in practice. That is what our amendment sets out.
Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con)
Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the question put to him just now by Government Members? Does he or does he not accept that it is wrong in principle in the long term for a family to live indefinitely in an area where they could not afford to live if they were in work?
Mr Byrne
The principle on which we both agree and which we have advanced reforms to put in place is this: people should be better off in work than on benefits. That is why we are so frustrated with the Government’s failure to get people back to work. Five people are now chasing every job. That is the situation with which we now contend in many of our constituencies. In my constituency, 33 people are chasing every job. That is frustrating for those who believe that people should be better off in work than on benefits. That is why we are so disappointed with the performance of the Work programme.
Mark Field
In constructing a regional cap, will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that no more money is expended than by having a cap of £26,000— in other words, that the regional pot will remain as it is? If we are to go down that route, will he also support the idea of regional pay and regional benefits?
Ms Buck
Will my right hon. Friend help those Government Members to understand one simple fact: that housing support and council tax benefit are in-work benefits, and that—thanks to those benefits and the tax credits policy—it is virtually impossible for any household of comparable size and comparable housing costs to be worse off in work than on benefits? The whole system is constructed to avoid precisely that scenario. Will he also help those Government Members to understand that the impact of the cap hits not only Knightsbridge and Mayfair—the Government want to run the policy by anecdote—but outer London boroughs and suburbs, such as Enfield, Barnet and Brent, as well as Birmingham? Where will those households find somewhere that they can be priced into?
Mr Byrne
My hon. Friend did an extraordinary job of deconstructing the Bill as it went through Committee, and she is an acknowledged expert on this subject. Her point is absolutely right. The Minister was not able to confirm that somebody on £35,000 could receive, for example, housing benefit. I am reliably informed that that is, in fact, the case. Because the Government have not thought this measure through, we are now confronted with the extraordinary spectacle of a cap that appears to cost more than it saves. As was pointed out by the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), who is not in his place now, in some parts of the country that will not send the signal that people are better off in work than on benefits. Only the Government could have introduced a proposal that is, frankly, that much of a dog’s breakfast.
Let us take the cost side first. In this debate, we are in the happy position of not simply having to rely on costing an assertion made by Opposition Members. We are very grateful that we have got the analysis that was presented by our good friend, the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government. In a blunt warning—not to just anybody, but to the Prime Minister’s Office—the principal private secretary in the Department for Communities and Local Government said:
“we think it is likely that the policy as it stands will generate a net cost”,
and that was before the Government burnt all the money that they have sent up in smoke just this afternoon.
A cursory glance at some of the scenarios that we will see in, for example, the constituency of the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field) confirms exactly what is going on.
Mr Byrne
In a moment.
We are grateful to the Children’s Society for telling us that about half the families who will be affected by the current “one cap fits all” proposal will be families with five children, and on the basis of the first impact assessment—I think—the Children’s Society calculated that about 21,000 families would be affected.
Mr Byrne
I will give way in a moment.
Let us just see what that scenario looks like in London. The House of Commons Library tells us that a family in that situation will be taking a hundred quid in jobseeker’s allowance, £74 in child benefit, £255 in child tax credit, £32 in council tax benefit and—because of the high levels of rents in London—£350 in housing benefit. Under the cap, a family in that position will lose about £243. There is no way on earth that their rent will fall by that amount. Even out of London, a family in that situation will face losing £87 a week, and there is no way that their rent will fall by that amount either. Those families—some 21,000 of them—will be made homeless. Coincidentally, that is exactly the figure in the analysis produced by the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government. I am afraid that it is therefore rather ludicrous to suggest that there will not be widespread homelessness as a result of the “one cap fits all” approach, and if anyone wanted any proof of that, the Minister has just given it by telling us that he has had to burn a third of the savings that he proposes to make in sorting the problem out.
Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
My right hon. Friend is making a powerful case. Does he recall that, when the housing benefit capping measures were introduced, the Government said that rents would be likely to go down? What would he say to my constituent, a higher executive officer with Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, whose landlord has put her rent up by £100 from 12 January? She is below the cap for Brent, but she has been told that she will not be able to have a review of her benefits until 14 June.
Mr Byrne
My hon. Friend has highlighted a problem with which we are confronted in London and elsewhere. It was remarkable that the Minister managed to get through his speech this afternoon without making any reference to the latest DCLG estimates for how much rents in London and elsewhere are going to rise. According to some analyses that I have seen, they could rise by something like 41% over the next few years. Nowhere is that corrected or remedied in the Government’s proposals. One Department is simply not talking to the other.
Ian Paisley
Has the shadow Minister not just illustrated that this is a Greater London-centric issue, given that 60% of the high claims and high benefit payments are in the Greater London area? Across Northern Ireland, only one claimant is in receipt of an amount that would reflect a higher benefit. Yes, something needs to be said about London, but this issue does not affect the whole of the UK in the same way.
Mr Byrne
The hon. Gentleman is making the point that we tried to make in our amendment—namely, that a “one cap fits all” proposal does not look as though it is going to work. We have heard the Minister’s reassurances this afternoon that certain families will be referred into the Work programme, but I am afraid that the Work programme is failing. The off-flow rate—the rate at which people flow off benefits and into work—in the last quarter of last year was the lowest since 1998. People are not getting back into work, because the Government’s back-to-work programmes are failing. Perhaps the Minister will tell us what he is going to do about that problem.
Chris Grayling
I have two questions for the right hon. Gentleman, to which I would appreciate simple answers. First, as there are not yet any statistics to demonstrate how the Work programme is working, how can he make assertions about it? He does not know, one way or the other. Secondly, as he is skating round this issue in a big way this afternoon, will he tell us whether he supports the principle of a £26,000 a year benefit cap in London? Yes or no?
Mr Byrne
As I have rehearsed this afternoon, we simply think that a “one cap fits all” approach is not going to work. The Minister has had to put his hand in his pocket and spend a fortune to fix the problem. He tells us that the Work programme is working well, but the rate at which people are flowing off benefits and into work speaks for itself. It is at its lowest point since 1998. That tells us, I am afraid, that the back-to-work programmes are simply not going to work.
Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con)
The right hon. Gentleman says that some people will have to move home. Why does he think that that is unacceptable for the long-term unemployed? Every day, people’s circumstances change. They might lose their job, their marriage or their relationship, and those circumstances mean that they have to move home. Why should the long-term—often third generation—unemployed be exempt from the real world that so many people live in?
Mr Byrne
I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for making that point with such force. No one is against people having to move home or to lower-cost areas of accommodation. What people are worried about is 21,000 families being made homeless, local councils having to pick up the bill for that, and that bill having to be paid for by council tax payers such as hers. What conversations has she had with her constituents about how much their council tax bill is going to go up because there is a new bill for homelessness to pay?
Anna Soubry
I can assure the right hon. Gentleman, following conversations with my constituents in Broxtowe, that hard-working people overwhelmingly take the view that the long-term unemployed should no longer be better off on benefit than in work. That is not only for the sake of the public purse; it is a result of the compassion that we feel—[Laughter.] Hon. Members should not laugh; they should know better. In the real world, some of the people I used to represent as a criminal barrister were third-generation unemployed. It is for their sake and that of their children that they should be back in work, and that is what these measures have at their heart.
Dame Joan Ruddock
Let me remind my right hon. Friend and, through him, the House that we are talking about benefits and caps that are completely and utterly inappropriate in London where many people in receipt of housing benefit because of high rents are in work. When they are told to move, as the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) suggests, there is nowhere for them to move to. Our constituents are being told to move to outer boroughs, but Conservative Members know perfectly well that moving to Croydon, Bexley or Bromley is no solution for people who live in Lewisham, where rents are lower. Let me make a further point. I am told on good authority that Croydon, where it is suggested my constituents could move, is now looking to towns in the north of England to house its homeless.
Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that we are getting slightly misleading information about the percentage of people who are long-term unemployed? About 40% of them are on jobseeker’s allowance and have been for less than a year; a further 22% have been on employment and support allowance for less than two years; the remainder are on income support and are not required to look for work. These are not long-term unemployed people idling about; they are people who are either not required to look for work or who have not been on benefit for a particularly long time.
Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)
My right hon. Friend is making a powerful speech. In my constituency, as in that of the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley), rents might be £500 a month. That is not the sort of rent that we see in London, but one thing the areas have in common is landlords who are quite happy to take the money as often as they can, but who are not so happy to look after the property that the tenants have to live in. There are a number of rogue landlords. Is that not where the fire of Government Back Benchers should be turned—on those landlords?
Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD)
Having sat through almost every sitting of the Public Bill Committee, I do not recall this issue getting any traction at all, so it is quite a surprise to hear it come up now. The right hon. Gentleman says that one size does not fit all, so is he going to tell us what sizes do fit, starting with London?
Mr Byrne
I am going to do exactly that. The Minister makes an important point about regionalisation and localisation, but the point has already been made that we have a local component to the benefit system, and we have had it for 70 years. It was such a big feature of the benefit system that in 1942 William Beveridge devoted an entire section of his report to “the problem of rents”, as he put it. I know that the Conservative party tried to block the Beveridge report back then and that Conservative Members do not want to admit this problem now, but I am afraid that it is a problem that bedevils their policy.
Harriett Baldwin
I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman enjoyed my recently published Centre for Policy Studies policy that mentioned regional benefits. On that subject, for the most expensive part of the London would he set the benefit higher or lower than £26,000?
Mr Byrne
I shall come on to that directly, but I agree with the hon. Lady on one important point. It is important to take local factors into account. If we take out the pension system, the housing benefit bill is something like a quarter of the overall benefits spending. It has been localised for something like 70 years. Admitting a degree of localisation in the way we set a cap sounds as though it could be perfectly consistent with her proposals, although I have not read her pamphlet.
Let me give the House one more illustration of why this is so important. Perhaps the problem of the five-child family in London is included in the hon. Lady’s pamphlet. Almost half the benefits received by that family will consist of housing benefit, as opposed to only about a third of the benefits received by a family in similar circumstances living in a different part of the country. Pretty often, incidentally, that money goes to the landlord rather than the family in question. I believe that we should have a cap that is different in different parts of the country, but takes account of differences in housing benefit.
Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)
Would not a much simpler and more cost-effective solution for London be to do something to control the excessive rents that landlords are pocketing? Then we would not have to transport pensioners halfway around the country.
Mr Byrne
I promise that I will give way to the hon. Lady in a moment.
A one-cap-fits-all approach will not work in London, and it will not work elsewhere. As has been pointed out by many Members representing all parts of the United Kingdom, the cap that the Government propose may not send people the signal that they are better off in work. Our argument is in our amendment, which says that the cap should reflect differences in housing benefit costs in different parts of the country. That has always been an element of our benefits system, but we would add a couple of extra safeguards. There should be a safeguard against homelessness and the kind of costs that the Minister has had to fix this afternoon, and—in my view—there should also be a safeguard against child poverty. Heaven knows, that is worsening enough under the present Government, and we do not want it to become worse still.
Harriett Baldwin
Will the right hon. Gentleman answer my second question? Would the regional benefit cap in central London be set higher or lower than £26,000?
Mr Byrne
The hon. Lady will have read our amendment, so she will know that we propose to take politics out of the issue, and to establish an independent commission to set the level of the cap. As has been demonstrated this afternoon, when it is left to politicians, they make a pig’s ear of it.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
What discussions has the right hon. Gentleman had with his colleagues in the Welsh Government about his proposals for a regionalised or localised cap?
Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)
I am still confused about exactly what the right hon. Gentleman’s policy is. He may not know that the average salary in his constituency is less than £18,000 a year. Does he propose to reduce the cap to £18,000 in his constituency, or will his constituents be gutted to learn that he is defending the fact that they can obtain more on benefits than they can on the average salary in his constituency?
Nick de Bois
The right hon. Gentleman might like to know that according to the Office for National Statistics, the average annual salary in Enfield North is £25,500, which is close. I can assure him that many of my constituents do not think it fair that while they are earning a gross salary of £25,000, it is possible to receive the equivalent of £35,000 on benefits, which means that work does not pay.
Mr Byrne
The hon. Gentleman will accept that there will be people, under the £26,000 cap, who could be better off on benefits than in work in some parts of the country, so surely he too will admit the wisdom of having a different cap in different parts of the country. That is why we suggest that principle, and why we suggest that an independent commission looks at the levels. We have seen the muddle that the Government have got into—a muddle that has cost the Exchequer £80 million this year, and will cost it £50 million in the year after that; that is the cost of sorting out the homelessness that it has, over the past year, been telling the House would not arise. If the Government tried to take politics out of the issue just for a moment, and focused on the good old-fashioned business of getting the policy right, they might be in a better position to put in place a cap that does not backfire.
Mr Redwood
I am interested in the right hon. Gentleman’s idea; I presume that the regulator would be called Ofcap, or conceivably Doffcap. Would his party tell Doffcap that it would have exactly the same amount of money as the Government are proposing, or does he think that there ought to be more money because the amount is not really generous?
Barry Gardiner
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way; he has been extremely courteous to the whole House in giving way so many times. May I ask him to comment on the idea, mentioned many times by Government Members, that the scheme will get people into work, including those in long-term unemployment? What does he think that they would say to my constituent, a very senior teacher, who says:
“I am a teacher and because of the cutbacks to local councils am unemployable owing to my experience and qualifications as I cost the same as 2 newly qualified teachers…I have survived these past months by selling my possessions and borrowing money”
but
“these avenues are virtually spent and I am in the situation of having to decide between food and heat, let alone how I will pay for my accommodation”?
This man has always worked in my area, has lived there most of his life, and has served my constituents and their children, yet he is being consigned to moving to another part of the country under this legislation.
Mr Byrne
That brings me to the final point that I want to make, which is about how the policy will be implemented. We are pleased that the Government will take on half of our amendment and introduce a grace period. The Secretary of State has made it clear, from a sedentary position, that the cap is not intended to apply to those who are in work, but we are still not completely clear about how many hours a week someone will have to work to secure that exemption. I understood, in Committee, that someone needed to be working at least 24 hours a week on the minimum wage for that to happen, but the whole thrust of universal credit is to ensure, and to encourage people to take, mini-jobs. If someone is working five, six or seven hours a week, would they, too, be exempt from the benefit cap?
Finally, what would happen if a partner left their spouse, and that spouse, who had four children and lived in a constituency or neighbourhood across the river, automatically found themselves in receipt of benefits that were above the cap? In that tragic situation of family break-up, what happens to the parent looking after the children? Those are important transitional issues that I hope the Minister can clarify.
Frank Dobson
Will my right hon. Friend take at least a minute or two to try to get across to Government Members that housing benefit is not kept in people’s handbags or wallets? It is paid out to grasping private landlords, and until we do something about those landlords, the housing benefit bill will continue to soar.
Mr Byrne
The Minister with responsibility for pensions asks what we did about it; again, in the Conservative party’s briefing for today’s debate, there are some interesting figures about the rise in housing benefit over the past few years, but of course closer inspection of the DWP forecast for the next few years shows that housing benefit is set to rise, year on year, at the same rate as in the past 13 years. That is why Labour has been right to expose the dangers of cutting investment in new housing and the lack of any policy making from the Government on what should happen to the private rental market.
This afternoon, Labour has set out its proposal for a benefit cap that will work in practice. We hope to press it to a vote and that the Government will think again about giving the other place a chance to vote on it—just to reinforce that point.
Mr Redwood
This is rightly difficult territory. I am relieved to hear that Ministers have reconsidered the transitional arrangements, and I am pleased that the Opposition welcome that. In the noise and heat of the debate, important truths are getting lost or ignored. We are not generous enough towards the disabled, and I was pleased to hear that they are completely exempted from the proposals, which should be widely welcomed across the House. The exemption of war widows, who often have very little to live on and whose former husbands sacrificed so much to help our country, is extremely welcome, as both parties in government have asked their loved ones to go into battle on our behalf.
I am also pleased to hear that anybody in work is exempted. The Government’s case revolves around something with which I believe the Labour party normally agrees: working should always be worth while. In today’s debate, there has been more heat than light. If the Labour party, the Conservative party and the Liberal Democrat party all believe that it should be more worth while to work, we need such a provision to achieve the desired effect. It comes down to the last-minute proposal that there should be some regional differentiation of the cap. We are no longer arguing for or against caps—we all now believe in that type of headgear—but Labour believes that there should be different fashions of cap across the country whereas, on the Government Benches, the passion is apparently for uniform caps.
Mr Redwood
My hon. Friend is ahead of me in my argument. So far, I think I have carried an expectant and worried Labour party with me. Labour agrees with all the exemptions, agrees with the delayed transition and agrees that we need to make working worth while.
Mr Redwood
No, I like representing my constituents and I suspect that the two jobs would not be compatible. I am very grateful for the kind offer, however, and I notice that the right hon. Gentleman prefers the name Ofcap to Doffcap. As Labour has not yet put forward proposals to deal with the people it describes as fat cat landlords, I think it might well be a case of Doffcap to the landlords, as we seem to be discussing how much money we will route to the landlords through the housing benefit mechanism.
I suspect that if I strayed into the subject of proposals for the housing market and landlords, you would rule me out of order, Mr Deputy Speaker, but perhaps that is a debate for another day. There might be common ground on how we can get better value for the public money being spent while ensuring that we do not cut off the supply of housing, which would be a very stupid thing to do by clumsy intervention. We need more housing at an affordable level for people on modest incomes.
We are talking about a group of people on very modest incomes, and it ill behoves people on decent incomes, such as Members of the House, to be too mean about it. We have the conundrum, however, that we always want to make it worth while for those people to work. We all accept that there will be a cap, but, if it is to be a regional cap, before deviating from the Government’s proposal to the Labour proposal we would need to know what Labour has in mind for the total costings and how the proposal would work fairly within an area as well as between areas.
Mr Redwood
I thought it was now common ground that for a large number of people on certain kinds of benefit, work is not worth while. We are trying to solve that problem, so despite all those things that the hon. Lady truthfully reports to the House, we still have that problem, with which both parties are wrestling. That is why the Labour party is not here today saying, “There is no problem: we are going to vote against the whole thing,” but is here with an alternative proposal at the 11th hour—the last possible chance to consider this.
Let us go back to Labour’s argument on the regional cap. If it had come with a properly costed and working proposal, I might have been sympathetic to it, but we do not yet know from Labour what is the total package of money available. We have not even been told whether it wants to live within the budget that the Government have come up with for the proposal or whether it thinks the overall proposal is too mean. If it wants to spend much more, it will not solve the “Why work?” problem because provision will become too generous again and it will have a public spending problem.
Mr Redwood
Ministers are very capable of setting out their own figures. I do not have, at the top of my mind, all the detailed figures the right hon. Gentleman wants, which are properly things for Ministers to report to the House, but they have detailed the total savings overall and they are trying to live within that budget. As has rightfully been reported to the House today, they have given up some of the savings to accommodate the transitional period. It is entirely fair to ask the right hon. Gentleman, who is a specialist, as is the Minister he shadows, to tell us how much difference there would be in his proposals. Clearly, Labour has not yet thought through what the total should be.
There is another, very difficult, issue to consider with regionalism: there are big divergences in house and flat prices within, as well as between, regions. We should recognise this point, which in some ways makes this policy a bit easier to stomach than some on the Labour Benches suggest. I heard a former Westminster councillor saying that she had done some work on the situation of families who would be caught by the cap in Westminster. Naturally I was worried and wanted to hear what her answer was. She said she had found a considerable number of properties that she thought would be suitable for those families, quite close to where they were currently living, which happened to be rather better value than those in which they were currently living, supported by benefits. That seemed rather good news to me. Members from London constituencies will know that within London there is a huge variety of cost in property—often street by street, not merely borough by borough—so I do not think the proposal is quite as penal as some on the Labour Benches suggest. That makes it quite difficult to set a regional cap because such a cap might be no more appropriate as an average than the national cap.
Mr Redwood
I am grateful to the hon. Lady.
I am conscious that others want to speak so I shall not extend my argument further. I just want to make the point that in order to consider fairly what is an interesting proposal from Labour, the minimum we would need to know is the overall cost in comparison to the Government scheme and how these difficult problems of judgment within areas or regions would be settled. That is an important consideration.
Mr Byrne
Presumably, the fact that homelessness will not be created, which is what the Secretary of State has argued over the past year, is the reason why he has had to find another £80 million—to solve a problem that does not exist. In direct answer to the challenge put by the right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood), our amendment suggests that the right place to start this debate is by having a level for London and a level for outside London. That would begin to address the problem he is highlighting.
Mr Redwood
That is something we need to think rather more about, but unfortunately we have little time to do so. That suggestion might have been helpful, but there is also the problem of the big variety of levels within London. We need to know the extent to which the Labour party wants to validate the current high rents and whether there might be some other solution to the problem of very high rents that lies behind some of this difficulty.
The conclusion I must come to is that the best offer on this issue at this late stage is the Government’s. Something must be done to move things in the right direction and make it more worth while to work. All of us, on both sides of the House, are extremely concerned that in recent years, under both parties, although quite a lot of jobs have been generated a very large proportion of them have gone to people who have recently arrived, because they think the jobs are good enough and that the pay is high enough. There have been reasons—perhaps very good reasons—why people who are settled here and out of work have not wanted those jobs or been able to take them, but part of the answer must be that we have the wrong balance between benefit and work income, and we need to do something about that.
Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)
It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field), who always provides the House with a thoughtful contribution. It is important to state that the number of newly elected Government Members shows that we were elected on a promise to get to grips with the welfare state. I represent a constituency where the average wage is very low, yet the jobs created there over the past few years have been taken predominantly by hard-working people from eastern Europe. I think that there is something completely wrong with the system if I can meet people on the streets in Llandudno and Llanddulas who tell me that they are better off not taking employment. There is a passion for these changes on the Government Benches, a passion for change that will allow people to do the right thing with their lives and take a job.
I am intrigued and disappointed to see that not a single Labour Member from Wales is in the Chamber to discuss this issue, and I think that I know why. It is because time and again Government Members have asked the shadow Secretary of State to tell us whether his proposed regional cap is for an increase in London, with no change in the rest of the country, or for a reduction in other parts of the country. I do not know a single Labour Assembly Member, councillor or MP who has advocated a lower cap in Wales than in the rest of the country, so it is pretty clear to me that the concept of a regional variation is based on increases in expensive parts of the country but no reductions elsewhere. The Labour party has provided no financial information on its proposal.
I am all in favour of debate on this issue. My right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) made the point extremely well that there is an argument to be had about the regional variation in pay and benefits, but it is completely unacceptable for the Opposition to turn up with a proposal that is uncosted, untested and, in my view, intended to get the Labour party off the hook rather than contribute to any change. I do not consider myself to be a cynic on this matter, but I wonder why, when the Chancellor highlighted in the autumn statement the possibility of looking at regional pay, the Labour party attacked the proposal, yet it is now looking at proposals for a regional cap, as logically a regional benefit system must follow. I can only conclude that the difference is that benefit recipients are not union members, but public sector workers are.
Mr Byrne
I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman felt the need to add that rejoinder. There is already a very localised dimension to the benefits system: housing benefit. We have had a localised housing benefits system for about 70 years, and that is why the amendment states that, if we are to have a different solution for London, compared with the rest of the country, it is housing benefit differences that should be taken into account if an independent commission is appointed to set the cap levels. We already have that in place in this country.
Guto Bebb
That is an interesting comment. The right hon. Gentleman almost implies that there are no differences between housing costs in other parts of the country. In Wales there are certainly huge differences, for example between Cardiff and north Wales. In my constituency, there has been growth in the population of young people in villages such as Penmaenmawr and Penmachno, and it has been driven by young people who are working but cannot afford to live in the most prosperous areas. They have moved into areas where it is cheaper to buy because that is what they can afford. Why are people who do work and do take responsibility expected to commute to own a house, while that is not the case for somebody who is in receipt of housing benefit? That is another challenge to which we need to respond.
Richard Graham
My right hon. Friend makes an important point. I have heard from many charities, whose work I deeply respect in many ways and who are active in my constituency, and the strength of their words on some of these issues does amount to scaremongering. I hope that, as on housing benefit, they are proved entirely wrong.
I hugely congratulate the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) on the ingenuity of his argument. I have no doubt that were he to go more deeply into the private sector, as I believe he is starting to do, he would be a fantastic salesman of unsellable products. Today, we have heard from him an extraordinary, last-minute and uncosted proposal that leaves us none the wiser about what the Opposition really believe. I sympathise with the right hon. Gentleman. He said that if we left matters to politicians, they would make a pig’s ear of it. He is right: he did. From the man who was in charge of the spending of taxpayers’ money and realised that he had spent it all, that was a hugely motivational factor for many Government Members, who realised that politicians had made a pig’s ear of it and perhaps it was time for people from outside politics to come in and try to do something to help.
Mr Byrne
The hon. Gentleman is very generous and I am grateful for his compliments. But he must accept that Ministers have so badly thought this policy through that they have had to face the indignity of coming to this House and promising to spend £130 million solving a problem that they have told us for the last year would never present itself.
Richard Graham
As the right hon. Gentleman will have just heard, I came into this House from outside politics, with a background in the public sector, the charity sector and business, where making concessions and being flexible in achieving goals was generally considered to be a merit. Perhaps if he had shown more flexibility in his approach to the handling of taxpayers’ funds, we would not be in quite the situation that we are today. I am sorry, because I enjoy his company, but I came to the conclusion that his approach today does not remotely add up to a policy. It is simply the continuation of a welfare culture by his party that amounts to gross irresponsibility, married to a something for nothing culture.
In summary, the Bill achieves the following goals. It protects the weak, the disadvantaged and the disabled. There are transitional arrangements in place to help families who are unintentional victims of the Bill in places with high housing costs such as London. It does ensure that workers who are paying the tax that goes to support an enormous benefits bill can see that the Government are taking steps to cap the amounts that are paid out. It is the right thing for Gloucester and for this country, and the amendment is a clumsy, last-minute fudge rather than any solution. I have no hesitation in rejecting it and supporting the Government’s proposal.
Mr Byrne
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. This has been an important debate, yet the Government have ensured that no time was available to discuss Labour’s amendment and to put it to the vote before the knife fell at 5 o’clock. They declared financial privilege on the amendment in order to stop it being debated in the House of Lords. What advice would you give me, Mr Deputy Speaker, on how to ensure that this place is able to vote on Labour’s benefit cap?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Further to that point of order, I call Mr Iain Duncan Smith.