Product Security and Telecommunications Infrastructure Bill

Julia Lopez Excerpts

Wednesday 26th January 2022 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Media, Data and Digital Infrastructure (Julia Lopez)]

I thank all hon. Members for their valuable contributions to this debate. I am pleased that the Bill commands cross-party support, which underlines the commitment of this House to make sure that every household and business in our country can access faster digital connectivity and feel assured that our tech is secure. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Boston and Skegness (Matt Warman) for laying the foundations for this Bill and for bringing his expertise to bear in today’s debate.

This Bill comes at an opportune time when cyber-attacks are on the rise and the pandemic has underlined the increasing importance of digital connectivity to how we live, work and socialise. The quality and security of that connectivity has an impact on people’s life chances today and even more so in the future, so we have to grip these issues now. That is why we have to view fantastic telecoms infrastructure as more akin to a key utility, notwithstanding the need for different regulatory approaches.

In that way, this should not be seen as a dry debate about technology. I appreciate the valiant attempts to spice up this debate, which is about people and how we give them and their communities the fundamental tools to live good lives and prosper. These networks are vital for the UK’s future competitiveness. We cannot stay at the heart of the global economy if our connections are not world class, which is something we want not just for pockets of our nation but for every community.

We must not see a digital divide emerge between well-connected urban areas and poorly connected rural areas. I know how passionate Members are about the connectivity of their regions, and I welcome their highlighting of the challenges. I pay particular tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for North Devon (Selaine Saxby), who is tireless in her pursuit of better broadband for her county. I encourage ongoing engagement with my Department so that we get high-quality intelligence about what is really happening on the ground as our operators roll out new networks and upgrade existing. I ask my hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury (Edward Timpson) to write to me in detail with some of his concerns about particular streets in his constituency.

As tech becomes a central driving force for our economy and our society, we have to be able to trust it without ordinary citizens needing deep expertise in cyber-security. That is why we want to make connected devices more secure by design, whether baby monitors or malevolent toasters, as highlighted by the hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (John Nicolson)—perhaps not as perilous a nightmare as that offered by my hon. Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Ruth Edwards), who discussed pictures of nude US Presidents. Cyber-attacks continue to be a serious and current threat to businesses and states, but this is also increasingly a phenomenon that is affecting all sorts of organisations, from local authorities and public bodies to individuals. The hon. Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore) raised an important point about the service of cyber officials and the tremendous work they do, and I echo his words.

My right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest West (Sir Desmond Swayne) made a typically zesty contribution, but I am glad that he has at least accepted that we ought to be debating these issues, as yesterday he was considering not allowing that. He is very concerned about lowered rents for landlords who are hosting telecoms infrastructure. We have discussed these issues in person. As he knows, the electronic communications code was changed in 2017. I should make it clear again—I know this will disappoint hon. Members—that we are not seeking to alter that pricing structure again. In our view, the prices being paid for rights to install communications apparatus prior to 2017 were much too high, and with digital communications becoming an increasingly critical part of daily life, that really needed to be addressed.

The argument has been made that delays in digital deployment are primarily a result of changes to the code in 2017 because the amounts offered by some operators are reduced, thereby disincentivising landowners from letting land be used. We do not think this is the case. We maintain that the 2017 valuation provisions created the right balance between public need for digital communications and landowner rights.

But that is not to say that the valuation changes did not create challenges, and the Bill is designed to make a positive difference to some of the David and Goliath situations raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Siobhan Baillie). To help ensure that fair outcomes are reached, we are introducing changes to encourage more collaborative discussion. The alternative dispute resolution provision will offer a particularly useful means of tackling situations involving either unreasonably low offers or unrealistically high payments. I am none the less happy to continue this discussion as the Bill progresses through the House.

My right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest West suggested that the Government are on the side of rapacious telecoms operators over landlords. I wish to assure him that that is not the case. We are getting good digital infrastructure to as many people as possible, as quickly as possible. I challenge the idea raised by my hon. Friend the Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare) that the telecoms operators are making a quick buck out of the networks they build. These are long-term investments, and the Government are pushing them very hard to deliver more, including by stripping high-risk vendors from their networks and rolling out infrastructure to communities that are not within easy reach.

I dare to suggest that some of the rarer and more emotive cases about community organisations receiving reduced rents are being used by certain lobbyists, some of whom are former Labour MPs, to obscure a larger, pretty hard-nosed commercial interest from companies that have bought up large numbers of telecoms sites and are concerned about receiving a lower return on their investment. Some of the same interest groups that oppose rent changes have written to me to express their support for better connectivity in rural areas. We should therefore not pretend that better connectivity does not rely on better access to sites and more realistic pricing for network operators who wish to deploy their services. Some hon. Members have pushed for the Bill to go further, particularly in relation to renewals and operator rights. Our policy aims align with that; we just need to make sure that the legislation is working as we hope. If amendments are required in Committee, we will actively consider them.

The hon. Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell) mentioned the recent report by the Public Accounts Committee on gigabit roll-out.

I thank the PAC for its detailed work. It expressed concerns about the absence of legislation, but here is the legislation, which the Secretary of State and I have championed since our arrival in the Department, building on the fantastic work of my predecessor. We have also launched a series of procurements in the hardest-to-reach areas and Building Digital UK will soon be established as an executive agency to drive that work. I am glad that the impact is already being seen in areas such as Eddisbury.

On the product security part of the Bill, I welcome the expertise of my hon. Friend the Member for Rushcliffe and I encourage her to engage in the new national cyber strategy, because we would benefit from some of her points. The hon. Member for Manchester Central expressed concerns about whether we are taking future technological developments into account. There are a number of secondary provisions in the legislation. Technologies are changing all the time and it is important that the legislation can change with it.

Finally, the Bill is not a silver bullet to address all the cyber challenges that we face. It is an important tool in our arsenal. The UK has established global leadership in the area and we are the first to develop domestic legislation that creates cyber-security requirements for consumer connectable products. The Bill will allow us to protect people across the UK, even as the world changes around us, and to keep pace with technology as it transforms our everyday lives. Combined with the measures on telecoms infrastructure, it will do a huge amount in the coming years to benefit our constituents and society at large.

I am sure that we can continue to work together to bring this important piece of legislation into law as soon as possible. We care passionately about connectivity for every community in our country and I am sure that the same spirit will continue as the Bill makes it passage through the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a Second time.

PRODUCT SECURITY AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS INFRASTRUCTURE BILL (PROGRAMME)

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)),

That the following provisions shall apply to the Product Security and Telecommunications Infrastructure Bill:

Committal

(1) The Bill shall be committed to a Public Bill Committee.

Proceedings in Public Bill Committee

(2) Proceedings in the Public Bill Committee shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion on Tuesday 29 March 2022.

(3) The Public Bill Committee shall have leave to sit twice on the first day on which it meets.

Consideration and Third Reading

(4) Proceedings on Consideration shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the moment of interruption on the day on which those proceedings are commenced.

(5) Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption on that day.

(6) Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading.

Other proceedings

(7) Any other proceedings on the Bill may be programmed.—(Michael Tomlinson.)

Question agreed to.

PRODUCT SECURITY AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS INFRASTRUCTURE BILL (MONEY)

Queen’s recommendation signified.

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 52(1)(a)),

That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Product Security and Telecommunications Infrastructure Bill, it is expedient to authorise:

(1) the payment out of money provided by Parliament of:

(a) any expenditure incurred by a Minister of the Crown under or by virtue of the Act; and

(b) any increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable under any other Act out of money so provided;

(2) the payment of sums into the Consolidated Fund.—(Michael Tomlinson.)

Question agreed to.

PRODUCT SECURITY AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS INFRASTRUCTURE BILL (CARRY-OVER)

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 80A(1)(a)),

That if, at the conclusion of this Session of Parliament, proceedings on the Product Security and Telecommunications Infrastructure Bill have not been completed, they shall be resumed in the next Session.—(Michael Tomlinson.)

Question agreed to.

Ultrafast Broadband: Devon and Somerset

Julia Lopez Excerpts

Tuesday 11th January 2022 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Media, Data and Digital Infrastructure (Julia Lopez)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Rees. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for North Devon (Selaine Saxby) for securing this debate, and for her proactive engagement with my Department on behalf of her constituents and in her role as the chair of the all-party parliamentary group on broadband and digital communication. She does tremendous work and I commend her for that. I am always grateful for these opportunities to speak to hon. Members because we have a shared goal of delivering fast and reliable internet to everybody in the UK. I genuinely welcome problems and challenges being highlighted along the way so that I can seek to address them with officials.

As many hon. Members have said, the pandemic has really highlighted the importance of digital connectivity in how we live and work, which, as technology advances, will only become more profound. Several hon. Members have highlighted that there is a risk of a digital divide emerging, and I agree. The hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard) talked about the movement of people into the region and, therefore, the additional importance of productivity gains coming from digital connectivity. My hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome (David Warburton) highlighted the issue of economic competitiveness for the region, which I am very alive to. I enjoyed his beautiful analogy of the beacons on the mounds—I hope that we have moved some way beyond that in the last few hundred years, but I am happy to look into any concerns that that is not the case. Other hon. Members highlighted the importance of levelling up and the work that they are doing as a group of MPs to highlight connectivity issues.

My hon. Friend the Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris) made some interesting comments about needing to prioritise those who are hardest to reach, and I wish to assure her that that is what the Government are doing. I will come to some of the issues relating to her region, but one of the first procurements we are looking into, which has already launched, is for Cumbria—which, as I hope hon. Members will appreciate, is one of the hardest-to-reach areas. Learning lessons from the Cumbria procurement will help us to manage the roll-out in other similarly difficult-to-reach regions.

I wish to assure all hon. Members that the Government are not leaving the knobbly bits until last, but trying to deal with them early in the process. As my hon. Friend the Member for Newton Abbot says, these people really matter. We want to make sure that everybody is connected, not least because this matter now affects people’s life chances in terms of education, the economy and so on.

I want to address some of the other interesting points raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Newton Abbot about innovation and how we need to look at all kinds of technologies, not just fixed fibre. It might interest hon. Members to know that I conducted the UK’s first ever call on Open RAN technology earlier today. Hon. Members will be aware of some of the challenges we have had in removing some of the kit from higher-risk vendors following the Telecommunications (Security) Act 2021, which has left us with questions on the resilience of the technology we use. We are trying to increase the range of supplies in our network, and we see Open RAN as one of the solutions.

I am keen to work closely with partners such as Vodafone and small and medium-sized enterprises to roll out that technology so that our networks are not only wide reaching but resilient. That ties in with some of the work that we are doing on the shared rural network. We hope those things will tally, because the Open RAN technology is being tested in some of those rural areas first. I hope that reassures my hon. Friend.

The roll-out of gigabit broadband and the work we are doing on 5G is for me, as Minister for Digital Infrastructure, as much about future-proofing our economy and society as it is about delivering faster internet speeds, as important as that is. We will achieve that primarily through Project Gigabit, with several billion pounds of investment to support nationwide gigabit-capable broadband. The commercial aspect to that gigabit roll-out is the key part of the programme. We want to support commercial activity to go as far as it possibly can, and only then use taxpayers’ money to intervene where it is necessary.

We want to use as much capacity from the market as possible, and maximise that pace of delivery. Our interventions include local, regional and cross-regional procurement. We are looking at Cumbria as one of the first of those. We are looking at gigabit vouchers, which have been pretty successful, and giga-hubs, where we invest in public buildings, such as schools, and gigabit delivery via the remaining projects under the superfast broadband programme.

All suppliers have the opportunity to bid for procurements at all levels, and to get involved, working with communities to use gigabit vouchers in areas where no other delivery is currently planned. In the spirit of the cross-party working in which we all wish to engage, and the fact that this is a collective endeavour, I encourage all hon. Members to highlight the voucher programme to constituents who might not be aware of it, and to encourage suppliers to get involved in those critical procurements.

At a local level, communities from across the UK have seen massive increases in gigabit broadband coverage, spurred by commercial investment. Through listening to industry and working closely with Ofcom, we have made a made a number of policy and regulatory changes to stimulate the market, including Ofcom creating a new pro-investment, pro-competition regulatory system for telecoms in the UK that was introduced early last year. Our 130% super-deduction on qualifying plant and machinery investment means that we expect more homes to receive coverage by 2025 without a Government subsidy, which is critical if we are going to make best use of taxpayer cash.

We have also changed the law to make it easier to connect premises in blocks of flats. We are piloting innovative approaches to street works, which we think can speed up build by between 10% and 40%. We are also working with industry to set up a gigabit take-up advisory group to review how to increase consumer demand for gigabit, and incentivise further investment from the private sector in gigabit roll-out. Although many homes are able to get connected to gigabit, they do not always do so. We need to make households aware of the importance of gigabit connectivity.

[Luke Pollard]

On connecting buildings, does the Minister have a view on the progress made on allowing new operators—such as CityFibre, which is rolling out the fibre network in Plymouth—to use historic wayleaves, so that they do not have to negotiate afresh with landowners where there is an historic wayleave that would allow access and speed up the roll-out, especially in buildings where there is a lower speed but an established connection?

[Julia Lopez]

I assure the hon. Member that we have just introduced legislation that we hope will deal with some of those issues. We are in close contact with some of the operators, asking what they need to speed up the roll-out. Factors such as wayleaves, as he highlighted, are among them. I encourage him to support the legislation on Second Reading.

There has been an unfair amount of gloom about the progress we are making in this area. Although I welcome the Opposition’s commitment to cross-party work on this, I push away some of the more partisan points made by the hon. Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore). As a result of the measures we have taken, the UK has seen more than £30 billion of private sector investment committed, and one of the fastest gigabit broadband roll-outs on the continent. Today, more than 65% of premises can now access gigabit-capable networks, which is up from one in 10 in November 2019. I hope the hon. Member will acknowledge the good progress we are making.

On concerns raised by my hon. Friend the Member for North Devon about rural areas missing out again, I emphasise that it is not just towns and cities that have seen increases in coverage. Since 2018, we have provided gigabit coverage to more than 600,000 rural premises, which has made a huge difference to the work and home lives of local people. In Devon and Somerset, 66,000 further premises now have gigabit-capable coverage being delivered, as part of our superfast broadband programme, which is managed by Connecting Devon and Somerset. On the broader picture, some of the tricky areas are among our first procurements.

My hon. Friend the Member for North Devon stated that the south-west had 92% superfast capability and that her constituency had 87%. I am pleased to report increases in both, with the latest thinkbroadband statistics estimating a figure of 94% in both Devon and Somerset and nearly 92% in my hon. Friend’s constituency. That regional statistic will also increase to more than 96% once the current contracted delivery is completed. Even though those improvements are coming, I recognise it can be a long wait for many and that is a frustration for all of us, and some premises will still not be included in those plans.

BDUK is working in partnership with local bodies on the ground. We are working to make sure those relationships are functioning well, and we have a good amount of shared data on where coverage is happening. Nevertheless, most hon. Members are aware that delivery in Devon and Somerset has been slower than we would have liked because of the challenges faced by Connecting Devon and Somerset, which is the joint team resourced by a number of hon. Members’ councils. I do not think those challenges are typical, notwithstanding that other rural areas also share issues regarding the complexity of some builds.

I do not wish to go over old ground, but the previous contracts collapsed and that followed procurement by CDS in 2015, which failed to complete owing to an inability to agree terms with the supplier, which in that case was BT. Subsequent to the previous contracts being terminated in 2019, CDS will have had to undertake a new open market review and public review with suppliers to confirm which premises are not within any commercial plans and therefore require subsidy. That has been a lengthy process and it is important to minimise that risk of overbuild of other commercial networks, which has also been regularly highlighted by my hon. Friend and which was also a requirement under previous EU state aid rules. CDS then had to follow that with a compliant public sector procurement process, meaning that the new delivery contracts were agreed only at the end of 2020.

The same processes will also be required for contracts taken forward under our new gigabit programme, but rather than local authorities, BDUK will be in the lead for that process. BDUK brings together central resources and expertise and we hope that will mean we get a more consistent national approach to delivery while still working with councils to deal with local implementation issues. BDUK is currently part of the Department, but it will be spun out as a separate executive agency this year. That will give it greater autonomy and greater scrutiny from a new board. That is going to be an important step in focusing and giving greater priority to ensure a good gigabit roll-out from now on.

My hon. Friend talked to BDUK officials just yesterday. Other hon. Members have spoken about making the west country a priority area for connectivity and that connectivity-related issues are not just nice-to-have things to address. I assure them that I have had my own discussions with BDUK to see what more we can do for the region, because I appreciate that hon. Members have particular frustrations that need to be addressed. I want to work together to do that. We have officials in the room, so I wonder whether we can look at the GigaHubs programme as well to see if there is anything more we can do.

I also wish to address the point made by the hon. Member for Ogmore about Wales and his constituency. It is going to be important that we work closely with the devolved Administrations. I am meeting Kate Forbes MSP this week, and I will be holding similar meetings with counterparts in the Welsh Administration and will be happy to look into his constituency. The hon. Gentleman raised points about the Product Security and Telecommunications Infrastructure Bill, which includes measures on the electronic communications code that regulates agreements between landowners and telecoms operators. We are looking to try and deal with some of the problems that came after the 2017 changes, trying to move to a position where we can have more arbitration rather than litigation and getting better relationships between landowners and mobile network operators so roll-outs can happen much faster. I hope the hon. Gentleman will support that legislation.

Returning to Project Gigabit, we only want to intervene when it is necessary. The same applies to delivery under the superfast broadband programme by CDS. That is why the open market review and the public review process I referred to earlier has to be followed, even though it can take a significant amount of time. As I say, I appreciate the frustrations. CDS has followed that process and is now only intervening in premises confirmed as eligible for public subsidy. However, we recognise that commercial plans will be changing and to maximise that value for local bodies, we should take reasonable steps to make way for new commercial investments.

That is easier said than done and CDS will be mindful of the risks to some premises of descoping to make way for a commercial build if that then leaves other neighbouring premises without viable coverage. Those are tricky issues that I know my hon. Friend the Member for North Devon will appreciate. I simply encourage all local bodies to be open and transparent in their dealings with commercial suppliers and to make way for new commercial builds if they can, and BDUK will continue to reinforce that point to local bodies.

Conversely, although I welcome new commercial build plans, I urge commercial providers to target investment at areas that are currently not in scope for any other coverage. BDUK is also making this point with suppliers. That will help increase the number of premises that have gigabit access from at least one operator, rather than having fewer premises with multiple providers.

Several hon. Members talked about the voucher scheme, which is one of the mechanisms that we have to incentivise and encourage suppliers to provide coverage to areas not covered by any other plans. I encourage all commercial suppliers to use that scheme as much as possible, and I encourage everybody in this Chamber to highlight the scheme to their constituents. The voucher scheme can be hard work for communities, and it runs the risk of delivering a patchwork of coverage. However, it is a relatively quick means of supporting delivery in particular communities and has been used successfully by many suppliers, including some of the largest, to provide gigabit coverage in communities across the country.

Many areas of Devon and Somerset are making good use of the voucher scheme. I am pleased to say that 5,466 premises in Devon and Somerset have gained a gigabit connection because of it, and a further 2,645 premises are awaiting connection. That is a combined total of over £12 million of investment. In the North Devon constituency, 299 premises have gained their gigabit connection as a result of that scheme, and another 208 premises are awaiting connection. That is nearly £1 million of investment by the voucher scheme in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for North Devon.

We have deliberately designed Project Gigabit to ensure that coverage is delivered in every area of the country, and not to leave those harder areas until last. We think that that will add to the gigabit coverage currently being delivered through superfast contracts. We want to reach as far as possible beyond 85% gigabit coverage by 2025, and every area of the country will be under contract by that stage. However, it is not the case that rural areas will be left with no coverage once that has been completed. The latest stats from thinkbroadband show that North Devon currently has 32% full-fibre coverage. That is ahead of the UK average of 30%, so when it comes to gigabit there is a good story to tell, and a good start has already been made.

[Selaine Saxby]

I thank the Minister for her clarifications this afternoon. We have already talked about the low take-up of gigabit in some areas. Is she able to clarify whether that is because some of my constituency is served by small providers who are not wholesalers, which is not the same as having Openreach or CityFibre and is therefore further reducing take-up?

[Julia Lopez]

I am afraid that I do not know enough about the commercial relationships and situations in my hon. Friend’s constituency to be able to provide a detailed answer; I will have to go to BDUK and get further details.

Many people are satisfied with their superfast speeds, and question why we need gigabit. Gigabit is actually about future-proofing homes and businesses across the country. Constituents across the country should understand that, although technology is advancing quickly, it is going to be taking even greater strides in future. We may see the delivery of more healthcare requiring fast speeds and new types of factories requiring really great connectivity. We need to ensure that we are thinking not just about speed, but about capacity, resilience and connectivity. We need to ensure that, when more applications and technologies require this kind of digital infrastructure, it is there, ready and waiting to be used.

In March 2020, the Government announced that they had agreed a £1 billion deal with mobile network operators to deliver the shared rural network—this relates to my hon. Friend’s concerns about notspots. The deal will see operators collectively increase mobile phone coverage across the UK to 95% by the end of that programme. That is underpinned by legally binding coverage commitments. In the south-west, 4G coverage from all four operators will increase to 87% from the current 75%, and from one operator from 97% to 99%, thanks to the shared rural network.

I was interested in the comments of the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport on the trainline piece of work. I believe that that may be happening in other parts of the country, but I am happy to look into this particular project for him and see whether there are any conversations that the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport needs to have with the Department for Transport. I recognise that the current roll-out will still leave some premises in the region with sub-superfast speeds, and in any case we now want to increase access from superfast to gigabit.

In our quarterly Project Gigabit delivery updates, which I hope hon. Members have received, we set out a target timetable for our regional supply procurements. For Devon and Somerset, we are targeting a procurement start in February to April 2023, with contract commencement early in 2024. This procurement is currently set up to include 159,600 premises, but the number could change depending on the market’s build plans.

The timetable for procurement was drawn up after extensive consultation with industry and local bodies and reflects the need for coverage from current contracts to be clear. Unfortunately, that is where hon. Members are seeing some of the challenges that their region had previously under superfast have an impact on how quickly we can get going with the gigabit stuff, which I regret.

It also increases the chances that the suppliers in the current programme will be able to bid for projects and continue building once their current deployment ends. We must be cognisant of the fact that only a certain number of people have the expertise to deliver some of this work. If those companies are engaged in superfast work, they may not have the capacity to bid for some of those gigabit contracts, which is regrettable.

All the procurements will, of course, be open to every interested supplier and I hope for good levels of competition. Our approach keeps open the potential for using smaller local supply procurements and the larger regional and cross-regional procurements that I think we want the likes of Openreach to be bidding for. We will seek to use each of those options as effectively as possible.

While we all welcome a large single supplier volunteering to complete coverage in Devon and Somerset commercially, we will need to see what results from the competitive procurement process. We should all welcome competition. It is positive that many more broadband network providers are now able to deliver significant levels of coverage, compared with the position in the past when only one national operator was undertaking a new roll-out. That is where our efforts to get a really good commercial market going are reaping dividends.

I am confident we will be successful in ensuring coverage through these procurements. I very much look forward to working with my hon. Friend and others in this Chamber, all Members from Devon and Somerset and all other interested parties, so that we can get the connectivity that is not only important to speed and life chances now, but ever more so into the future.

Oral Answers to Questions

Julia Lopez Excerpts

Thursday 6th January 2022 Commons Chamber

[Nick Fletcher (Don Valley) (Con)]

1. What assessment her Department has made of the potential merits of requiring streaming content providers operating in the UK to use the British Board of Film Classification rating system.

[The Minister for Media, Data and Digital Infrastructure (Julia Lopez)]

Happy new year to you, Mr Speaker, and to the House. I also welcome the new shadow team.

The Government launched a consultation in August last year to level the playing field between traditional broadcasters and video-on-demand streaming services, to provide a fair competitive framework and ensure that UK viewers receive equivalent standards regardless of the tech they use. That included looking at audience protection measures such as the role of the British Board of Film Classification age ratings. That consultation closed in October. We are now considering our response to the consultation and will publish the next steps in due course.

[Nick Fletcher]

Does my hon. Friend agree that these certifications not only protect our young people, if they are adhered to by responsible parents, but help us as adults to determine what we want to watch in our own homes?

[Julia Lopez]

I thank my hon. Friend for his tremendous campaigning work to protect children online and for sharing with the Department details of his recent meeting with the BBFC. We have great trust in its best practice age ratings and, as I have set out, we are currently considering its role, as part of the VOD consultation. We are trying to strike the right balance between freedom of expression, protecting audiences from harm and making sure that traditional broadcasting and streaming services are held to the same standards. If my hon. Friend has additional ideas on how best to do that, I have sent him the details of the lead official in this area and we would welcome his further engagement.

[Allan Dorans (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (SNP)]

2. What recent discussions she has held with (a) Cabinet colleagues and (b) civil society groups on the proposed Online Safety Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jacob Young (Redcar) (Con)]

6. What plans she has for the future of the TV licence fee.

[The Minister for Media, Data and Digital Infrastructure (Julia Lopez)]

The Government are in the process of determining the level of the licence fee from April this year. We need to deliver value for money for the licence fee payer while ensuring that the BBC can continue to provide high-quality services. We have been having constructive discussions with the BBC, and I believe we are close to reaching an agreement, but I cannot comment further while those negotiations are ongoing. An announcement will be made in Parliament in due course.

[Jacob Young]

The Minister will know that there is growing support for scrapping the licence fee or axing the TV tax, not least in Redcar and Cleveland, where the Bilsdale mast fire left people without TV reception, yet most were not given any sort of refund. Does the Minister agree that this is not an acceptable situation and that if the BBC were a satellite, broadband or phone provider, a refund for time without service and, in some cases, even further compensation would have been expected? Given that the BBC is using my constituents’ licence fees to pay celebs hundreds of thousands of pounds—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I think the Minister got the question.

[Julia Lopez]

I thank my hon. Friend for highlighting the plight of his constituents after the mast fire in Bilsdale. I have been working very closely with Arqiva to try to restore those services urgently, and I believe 98% of households have now had their Freeview restored, but I believe the BBC has also been issuing refunds. It has got to something like 11,000 refunds now; if my hon. Friend wishes to take this issue up with the BBC, I recommend that he do so.

[Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

7. What progress she has made on her review of the Gambling Act 2005.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mark Eastwood (Dewsbury) (Con)]

15. What steps her Department is taking to help support the UK film and television industry.

[Julia Lopez]

The Government’s actions helped the film and TV industry bounce back from the pandemic, with production now stronger than ever. Our support includes the £500 million production restart scheme, supporting over 88,000 jobs, and the cultural recovery fund, supporting over 200 independent cinemas. We have also built on the UK global screen fund.

[Andy Carter]

One reason why we have such a successful TV and film production sector in this country is the broad ecosystem of large, medium and small businesses that all contribute to that global success. Could I take the Minister back to the point raised earlier about Channel 4? Can she reassure me that specific regard is being given to the small and medium-sized businesses in my constituency and across the north of England who rely on Channel 4 for their first entry into network television commissions? What steps is she taking to ensure they are not disadvantaged?

[Julia Lopez]

I would like to provide him with those reassurances. That is very much on my mind, and that of the Secretary of State, as we look at this issue. I read with interest my hon. Friend’s piece in The Times on Channel 4 and levelling up, and the contribution that the broadcaster makes in that regard. In so far as we are minded to sell—no decision has yet been taken—it would be done in order to secure the future of the broadcaster and looking at the wider sector. I assure him that the independent production sector is doing incredibly well and is moving away from a reliance on the public service broadcasters anyway.

[Mark Eastwood]

I appreciate the support given to our TV industry. However, a big question remains on the viability of the BBC licence fee in today’s modern society. With hundreds of commercial and subscription channels currently available, I urge the Minister to look at the possibility of phasing out this outdated payment model and to consider other options for the BBC to be able to fund itself.

[Julia Lopez]

The current licence fee funding model is fixed for the rest of the charter, until 2027, but we will be reviewing the model well in advance of the next charter period. We are considering all options. I appreciate the concerns he raises, which I know are shared by a number of others.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I had the greatest respect for the hon. Gentleman as a Whip, and we used to have this challenge of Front Benchers’ questions needing to be short in topicals, so I was hoping he would set the right example, as I am sure he will next time.

[The Minister for Media, Data and Digital Infrastructure (Julia Lopez)]

We have put forward an important piece of legislation on this, to get our ambitions out there on improved wireless and broadband connectivity. I would be keen to engage with the hon. Gentleman further on these issues, but we think we have struck the right balance between the mobile network operators and those who receive rents.

[Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con)]

I know that my hon. Friend the Minister will agree that the singing of the national anthem is something that provides a great sense of unity and pride in our nation. In this year of the Queen’s platinum jubilee, will he take steps to encourage national broadcasters to play the national anthem and ensure that the BBC restores it at the end of the day’s programming before it switches to News 24?

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

We know that over Christmas children and young people would have been watching mainly streaming services rather than terrestrial TV, so can I press the Minister? Would it not be an easy and quick win to require all streaming services to use the British Board of Film Classification age verification system? We know that Netflix does, but Disney does not, which causes confusion for parents. This would be an easy, quick win for the Government, as well as everyone else.

[Julia Lopez]

I know that the right hon. Lady is passionate about this issue, which is something we are actively looking at, as I mentioned earlier. Those ratings are already voluntarily taken on by the likes of Netflix and others, but we are looking at what more could be done.

[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

If there is evidence that officials in the Department have inadvertently advised the Secretary of State on the application of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 and the HMRC film production company manual, would this be of concern to her, and would she agree to meet me and my constituent about this matter?

Draft Network and Information Systems (EU Exit) (Amendment) Regulations 2021

Julia Lopez Excerpts

Monday 13th December 2021 General Committees

[The Minister for Media, Data and Digital Infrastructure (Julia Lopez)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the draft Network and Information Systems (EU Exit) (Amendment) Regulations 2021.

The regulations were laid in draft before the House on 26 October. This short but very important statutory instrument makes technical corrections to the UK’s network and information systems legislation, which arose as a result of the UK leaving the EU. These corrections will allow the Information Commissioner, in her role as the regulator for digital services providers, to be informed of important cyber incidents affecting online marketplaces, online search engines and cloud computing services in our country.

Before moving on to the amendment at hand, it is important that we first consider the context that we find ourselves in. The NIS regulations were introduced in the UK in 2018, implementing the EU’s 2016 directive on security of network and information systems. The regulations provide a legal framework to protect the network and information systems of essential and digital services. They do this by directing operators of essential services and digital service providers to take steps to protect—against cyber-attack and physical fault—the security of those systems that their services rely on.

Beyond ensuring the security of their network and information systems, these organisations have other duties as well. One of the most significant, and the most relevant for this statutory instrument, is the duty to report to their regulator incidents that have a substantial impact on their services. Such reports are critical to the regulator’s ability to react and to implement the NIS legislation. The regulator can then provide advice, report the incident to the national technical authority—in this case the National Cyber Security Centre—or take enforcement action if appropriate.

[Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend think that these changes not only fill a gap from our leaving the EU but create an environment whereby we can perform better than if we had remained in the EU?

[Julia Lopez]

I would like to provide my hon. Friend with a very positive story about Brexit through these regulations, but this is quite a technical and narrow change. When it comes to his ambitions, we have a much more ambitious agenda in the coming year or so.

Without the information required, the regulator is not aware of the incident, and citizens and businesses relying on that service are affected for longer. The threshold for what qualifies as a reportable incident for the majority of the six sectors is set in statutory guidance by the relevant regulators. Only one sector—digital service providers, which are regulated by the Information Commissioner—has its set in legislation. All other regulators are able to react to the changing circumstances and amend the thresholds as necessary.

The Information Commissioner is limited by that retained EU law. That is due to how the NIS directive was established. In the EU, digital service providers are regulated at Union level, rather than at individual country level. For that reason, the thresholds that establish whether an incident has had a substantial impact on the security of a network and information system were not left to individual member states to establish, as is the case with all other sectors. These were set out in a Commission implementing regulation, which harmonised the rules across the whole EU. Following our withdrawal, it remained embedded in the UK statute book by virtue of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. Therefore, the thresholds remain at the level suitable for the EU, which has a population of 500 million, not for the just under 70 million of our own population. That means that they are unable to be changed to reflect our new position as an independent country outside the EU.

Parameters such as the amount of users impacted or user hours lost from an incident are set far too high currently for the UK, and considerations relating to impacts on EU citizens are not appropriate for our own NIS legislation. The Information Commissioner has received only one report since we left the EU. That is not surprising if an incident must have a noticeable impact on an economy the size of the EU in order to be reported in the UK. Without incident reporting, the commissioner will not have an understanding of the threats to and impacts on the sector, and will not be able to identify threats, provide guidance or take enforcement action if appropriate. For the NIS regulations to remain effective in protecting the essential services provided, we have to be able to set the reporting thresholds at a suitable level for our own country. This statutory instrument is designed to resolve that issue by removing those deficient provisions in retained EU law and allowing the Information Commissioner to set the thresholds to a level that effectively reflects our position and size.

The enabling provisions under section 8 of the 2018 Act allow changes to be made to rectify EU exit-related deficiencies only. I am content that the amendments made in this statutory instrument do not introduce new policy, although we have ambitions in that regard; rather, they are meant to ensure that the original policy objective is achieved. The Information Commissioner has already carried out a consultation on the level of thresholds to be set to represent the UK market, and the practice of setting appropriate thresholds for reporting is already in place for every other competent authority. This statutory instrument will bring digital service providers in line with all other operators of essential services in the UK.

Additional amendments in the statutory instrument cover textual changes as a consequence of the UK’s withdrawal from the EU. This includes a requirement for digital services providers to consider the geographic impact of an incident in relation to the UK rather than across the UK. The NIS regulations form part of the Government’s toolkit to protect digital services, which citizens rely on in their day-to-day lives, and help to support the functioning of the digital and physical economies. That is why it is essential that we maintain the framework for protecting our essential services and deter those who seek to act in a subversive manner towards them. For those who do unfortunately fall victim, it is necessary to provide support in guidance. To do this, competent authorities have to be informed of such incidents.

This statutory instrument incorporates much-needed amendments to the NIS legislative framework, which will lead to increased security of digital service providers and their network and information systems. Although the amendments are minor and technical in nature, they are none the less critical for maintaining the effectiveness of the NIS legislation and for providing the Information Commissioner with the right information to support digital services in the UK. I commend the regulations to the Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Julia Lopez]

I thank members of the Committee for attending and for their patience in debating the regulations. I also welcome the hon. Member for Ogmore to his position. I am very glad that he supports the regulations, and I very much appreciate the warm welcome he gave me. I look forward to working with him collaboratively where we can and to addressing his concerns when he raises them.

I assure the hon. Gentleman on our general approach to cyber-security. We entirely understand how important this area is. To that end, this week we are launching a new national cyber strategy, which is a whole-of-Government approach but also a whole-of-society approach. Huge efforts are going to be required by each of us as citizens; otherwise, any vulnerability in the system will have an impact on all of us. As we have seen during the pandemic, more aspects of our lives have gone online, and with that comes a consequent risk.

I completely agree with the hon. Gentleman on the importance of joint reporting and collaboration. We held the future tech forum at the Science Museum a couple of weeks ago, and we started some of those discussions with ministerial counterparts in EU countries. There was an EU representative present and I look forward to working collaboratively with them.

My hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield was absolutely right to refer to the importance of the relationship with Israel. I met the ambassador when I was at the Cabinet Office and we talked about where we can collaborate more closely when it comes to cyber-technology, because it is such an important area. It is the area of the future, where I fear we will be fighting many of tomorrow’s battles.

We have been assured that the ICO has the resources to deal with the extra reporting. I also say to the hon. Member for Ogmore that we will consult on NIS regulations early in the new year. We will also be looking at expanding the list of people that this applies to. I entirely agree with him about the importance of dealing with small businesses, which are going to be holding increasing amounts of risk. We are doing a huge number of things in that regard, including improving the skills base from which they can recruit cyber expertise and introducing a new royal charter so that people can be assured of the cyber expertise that individuals hold. At the moment, that is a very messy landscape. I hope that that assures the hon. Gentleman on some of the initiatives that we are working on. If he has any further questions, I shall be happy to engage with him. I commend the regulations to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Telecoms Diversification: Taskforce Recommendations

Julia Lopez Excerpts

Wednesday 8th December 2021 Written Statements

[The Minister for Media, Data and Digital Infrastructure (Julia Lopez)]

I would like to update the House on a package of measures and policy interventions we are announcing today to progress the Government’s 5G diversification strategy and the recommendations of the telecoms supply chain diversification taskforce.

Following a 5G diversification taskforce recommendation, the Government have worked closely with industry to confirm a date by which 2G and 3G networks will be switched off. The Government can now confirm that the mobile network operators do not intend to offer 2G and 3G mobile networks past 2033 at the latest. The Government welcome that some individual operators will switch off their networks, particularly their 3G networks, earlier than this date, and will announce their own plans about when and how they intend to do this. The Government welcome the responsible switching off of these networks, and will continue to work with network operators to ensure a smooth transition that meets the needs of business users and consumers, including vulnerable groups.

The Government are also announcing, together with UK mobile network operators, a joint ambition for 35% of the UK’s mobile network traffic to be carried over open and interoperable radio access network (RAN) architectures by 2030. The RAN is the part of the network that communicates directly with our devices, typically visible in the radio masts we see across the UK. Most networks today are characterised by closed “black boxes” in which all of the components are highly integrated and provided by a single, highly scaled vendor. “Opening” the RAN seeks to disaggregate these components and functions, lowering barriers to entry and promoting innovation. The Government welcome the steps taken by operators and suppliers to position the UK as a leader in the development of open and interoperable RAN technology and are pleased to commit £250 million of investment to support and accelerate this programme of work.

As part of this work to promote interoperable RAN, the Government will be providing just over £36 million of investment to fund projects that span key technology challenges to Open RAN adoption as part of the Future RAN Competition (FRANC). This investment will also support industry, academia and local authorities across the UK to realise the benefits of high-speed networks and create new commercial opportunities. Finally, the Government are investing a further £15 million in the SmartRAN Open Networks Interoperability Centre (SONIC Labs) to expand it into a fully-fledged interoperability testing facility that will break down barriers and support industry in developing interoperable solutions. This investment will enable the lab to expand its programme of interoperability testing and international engagement. These projects will be subject to final grant funding agreement.

The interventions demonstrate the Government’s commitment to delivering their diversification strategy and building lasting and sustainable supply for the infrastructure that underpins our entire digital economy. The Government will continue to update the House as this work progresses. Full details of the announcement will be published on www.gov.uk today.

[HCWS450]

Building Digital UK update

Julia Lopez Excerpts

Friday 3rd December 2021 Written Statements

[The Minister for Media, Data and Digital Infrastructure (Julia Lopez)]

Broadband plays a pivotal role in today’s society. Its significance has been highlighted by covid-19 and its importance will only increase in future years. Tackling the digital divide means ensuring that everyone in the UK can access and use digital communications services. Achieving this means ensuring the right infrastructure is in place to deliver nationwide connectivity for all.

In 2020, the Government committed to a new programme of work which would see a £5 billion investment in fixed broadband infrastructure and £0.5 billion in mobile broadband infrastructure over the coming decade. The programmes are a top priority for the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, and represent a significant increase in ambition and scale from previous schemes.

The organisation responsible for delivering the investment in broadband infrastructure, Building Digital UK (BDUK), has historically delivered spending commitments as a directorate within the Department. However, BDUK requires expert and independent board oversight, appropriate operational autonomy and delegated authority to further drive effective delivery.

I am therefore announcing my intention to establish BDUK as a specialist delivery Executive agency of the Department of Digital, Culture, Media and Sport in April 2022, to drive the effective execution of BDUK’s substantial portfolio of delivery commitments.

As an Executive agency, BDUK will be a clearly designated unit that will be administratively distinct but will remain legally within the Department.

The objectives for BDUK are complex, challenging and on a demanding timescale. The move to an Executive agency will improve the likelihood of success by enabling BDUK to deliver in a manner tailored to its specific requirements, reducing dependencies on central departmental functions for critical path activity.

[HCWS440]

National Data Strategy Mission 1 Policy Framework

Julia Lopez Excerpts

Wednesday 24th November 2021 Written Statements

[The Minister for Media, Data and Digital Infrastructure (Julia Lopez)]

I am pleased to inform the House that the Government are today publishing the “National Data Strategy Mission 1 Policy Framework: Unlocking the value of data across the economy”, which sets out the Government interventions needed to make private and third sector data more usable, accessible and available across the economy, while protecting people’s data rights and private enterprises’ intellectual property.

A commitment to developing this framework was set out in the “National Data Strategy”. Published in 2020, the strategy outlined for the first time in a single publication our ambitions to unlock the power of data. Since then, we have launched a monitoring and evaluation framework against which we will check our progress in delivering these ambitions. We have also begun a public consultation on reforms to the UK’s regime for the protection of personal data.

The publication of this framework underlines our commitment to a thriving and responsible data economy where the power of data from the private and third sectors is unlocked. The Government now have a set of levers for intervention and principles for when to apply them, as well as seven priority areas for action to take forward. These include making sure we have good data standards, encouraging the use of privacy enhancing technologies and data intermediaries and developing international co-operation to support the UK’s data agenda on the world stage.

We will continue to engage widely to implement the national data strategy, including working through the National Data Strategy Forum.

A copy of this update will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses.

[HCWS415]

Touring Musicians: EU Visas and Permits

Julia Lopez Excerpts

Thursday 18th November 2021 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Media, Data and Digital Infrastructure (Julia Lopez)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dr Huq, and I am really glad to be here to discuss the important issue of touring. I am particularly grateful to the Mother of the House for engaging on this issue and setting out some of the economic, cultural and quality-of-life reasons why music is so important to us all. I certainly agree with her; I do not want the UK to become a cultural Galápagos, and I am confident that it will not. I am very glad that she has also spoken directly to the Secretary of State, and has acknowledged our mutual desire to get movement on this issue. I am also very grateful to her for offering to work in close partnership on this issue, and I shall take her up on that offer.

I appreciate the contribution made by my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome (David Warburton). He is an accomplished musician and a great champion for the industry, and I look forward to working with him. He also makes a very important point about the importance of services as well as goods, an issue that I agree is too often overlooked. I also emphasise that the cultural industries are not niche industries but real economic drivers of growth. I also thank right hon. and hon. Members for the quality of the contributions we have heard today, especially from members of the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee. I feel compelled to insert a Tom Jones pun, but the less we talk about sex bombs in this place, the better. [Laughter.]

I am also very grateful to the chairman of the DCMS Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull (Julian Knight), who has made a similar point about how important DCMS is as a Department. This is not some Ministry of Fun: it too often suffers from that perception, but it is a serious economic Department and it needs to have that place within Government—I would say that now that I have moved, wouldn’t I? On the cross-departmental working issue, I reassure Members that I had a former role in the Cabinet Office, so I have contacts there. I understand how some of the European issues work—the committee structures and so on—and I am very keen in this new role to champion DCMS within those committee structures, and make the point that this is an incredibly important issue. I appreciate the comments that have been made about Lord Frost; I have no desire to promote myself to his position, nor would I have the power to, but he is doing some very difficult and complex work, and we appreciate the work that he does for the Government.

As we all know, the UK has left the EU, and it was inevitable following this that there would be changes in how creative professionals toured. I appreciate that the situation has been exacerbated by the pandemic, which has led to uncertainty in the sector, which we are seeking to resolve.

Hon. Members talked about the difference between some of the larger groups, with more money behind them, and the complexity for a smaller band or individual that is touring, and how it can be very difficult to navigate the bureaucratic issues around touring. I very much hear that issue, so throughout this year my Department has been working very hard to support the touring sector by clarifying arrangements, helping the sector to adapt and, where possible, looking at what we can do unilaterally and with EU member states to make things much easier.

Indeed, I had a very good meeting yesterday with representatives of the touring sector; in fact, I think it was the seventh meeting of the touring working group. It was a really productive meeting. I took down a lot of notes myself about some of the issues that I need to raise with ministerial colleagues.

However, this week was also a positive week. We have made good progress with Spain in relation to short-term visas for touring artists, and I will meet the Spanish ambassador next week, when I hope to ensure that we have worked through all the different issues, so that there is not just a headline but we actually have the details in place. I also hope to use this moment of engagement with Spain to encourage the final six countries to follow suit and provide clarity for people on the issue.

It is clear that although some significant issues remain—I am not a Minister to try to gloss over any issues; I want to work through them—I also wish to emphasise that I think the arrangements are more workable than has at times been portrayed. It is important for all of us to try to build confidence in the sector and to say what can be done, as well as highlight some of the issues that remain.

Touring generally involves the movement of people, goods and vehicles. I will initially focus on visas and permits, but I will address some of the other issues in turn, to highlight what my Department has done and is doing to progress these issues, notwithstanding the fact that some issues are within the remit of other Departments.

In the negotiations for the trade and co-operation agreement with the EU, we sought to ensure that touring artists and their support staff did not need work permits to perform in the EU. However, those proposals were rejected. Our recent trade deal with three European Free Trade Association countries, which include those provisions, was based on the same offer, which shows that it is workable.

I am aware that there have been calls for the Government to negotiate a visa waiver; that issue was raised by a number of hon. Members here in Westminster Hall today. We have engaged extensively with the industry on this proposal, but unfortunately we do not think it is viable. It is not Government policy to agree visa waivers, and the EU did not offer a visa waiver for paid activities during the TCA negotiations. What it did offer was a reciprocal visa waiver agreement covering all current member states and any future member states for short stays, for example as a tourist. However, nothing in this proposal would have compelled member states to change their visa regimes for paid engagement, and we think that remains incompatible with our manifesto commitment to take control of our borders. In addition, we do not think that it would meet the sector’s needs. We enable visa-free visits by EU citizens, but we wish to retain control of how we apply this policy, and it is important to stress that no major G7 economy has agreed to lock in its visa systems with the EU in this way.

Lord Frost has used the TCA’s committee structures to note the importance of this issue to the Government and we have also raised touring during the most recent meeting of the EU-UK’s Trade Specialised Committee on Services, Investment and Digital. However, our focus is now on working directly with EU member states and, as we have seen with the good progress this week, it is they who are principally responsible for deciding the rules governing what work UK visitors can undertake in their country.

We first want to address the uncertainty that is felt by some in the sector. It has been apparent that the information available online from member states regarding visa and permit requirements for touring musicians is at times lacking in detail and difficult to follow. As I have said, Spain has been a particular focus, and touring was raised with the Spanish Government by Ministers from across the Government, including by Ministers from the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, from the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office, from the Department for International Trade and from the Cabinet Office, as well as by our ambassador in Madrid. Following that, as I have said, I am very pleased that there has been movement on this issue this week.

[Kevin Brennan]

I am not sure that the point about the G7 and visa waivers is a particularly strong one. After all, three of the G7 countries are France, Germany and Italy, so they are members of the European Union. The others are Canada, Japan and the United States, which are all many thousands of miles away from the European Union. We are the only G7 country that—as the Chair of the Select Committee, the hon. Member for Solihull (Julian Knight), said—is 20 miles away from the European Union and in the case of Northern Ireland no miles away. So I would not rely on that point as a very strong argument against locking in our system to a visa waiver agreement in relation to the creative industries.

[Julia Lopez]

I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s intervention and I also appreciate the point he made earlier about wanting to disentangle this issue, so that it is not an immigration issue; this is about the importance of our creative industries and their economic power. I am happy to explore this issue further in response to some of the points that have been made here this afternoon.

Spain is a major market for UK touring artists, and it is one of the big ones that we wanted to solve. The sector has done tremendous work in advance of the announcement. It was a good example of where we can all work together to dismantle remaining barriers.

Twenty-one EU states have now confirmed that they offer visa and work permit-free routes for musicians and creative performers. I recognise that the visa and permit situation for touring has changed since EU exit, and it requires adaptation, but it is important to recognise that those routes exist. We try to provide clarity on gov.uk, so that people understand the arrangements before they have to leave.

At present, six EU member states do not offer visa or work permit-free touring. We have lobbied and will continue to lobby those countries to allow creative professionals to tour easily. As I say, I want to use the Spain breakthrough as a moment to re-engage with those member states. Those countries would benefit from the cultural exchange and the positive financial spill-overs that touring inevitably brings. UK Music, as others have said, has found that in the UK, for every £10 spent on a ticket, £17 goes back into a local economy. Therefore, if those EU member states change their position, we believe that they will find a similar benefit. We have emphasised that point in our engagement.

Ultimately, those are decisions for those six member states, but we are using the diplomatic tools at our disposal to get a good outcome for our industry. It is important for the Government and the sector to work together in that effort. As I said, yesterday I spoke to the sector and to the touring working group, and the Secretary of State engaged earlier this week with Sir Elton John in a productive and positive meeting. As singers and performers know, combining our voices will make the greatest impact. I appreciate the help of everyone in the Chamber in making the case.

To turn to the concerns about the movement of goods and vehicles, there are new requirements, with potential costs and paperwork to do with the ATA carnet documentation, and the movement of merchandise or of instruments made from protected materials. Some of those were raised in the meeting yesterday. The new cabotage rules can limit the movement of vehicles to a maximum of three stops. As I mentioned at the start of my speech, those changes could be particularly concerning for emerging artists. We have worked across Government to provide clarity on the issues. In many cases, the arrangements are much more workable than is at times reported—that is not to diminish the concerns expressed.

For example, a UK band can pack a van with their instruments, equipment and up to nine people and travel around the EU without being subject to the TCA cabotage restrictions. They may also take their portable instruments and equipment without the need for carnets, and EU rules state that each individual is able to take up to €1,000 of merchandise into the EU to sell on tour without paying customs duties.

In cases when a carnet is required, that is a single document that can be used for multiple items as many times as required in approximately 80 countries around the world for a 12-month period. Carnets have long been a familiar feature of touring. They were needed whenever touring was taking place beyond the EU, including for example to Switzerland, so this is a case of adaptation.

[Kerry McCarthy]

Will the Minister clarify? When she says that there is one carnet, but everything has to be listed, my understanding is that with a drum kit, someone cannot just say, “Drum kit”, but must specify every different cymbal and drum. Is that the case? Even though it is all on one piece of paper, that could still amount to a huge amount of bureaucracy.

[Julia Lopez]

I appreciate the hon. Lady’s point and I am happy to take it away. I am fairly new to this area, so with some DFT issues I will not be able to give clarity on all the details. I am happy to write to her.

I have also been listening to the music sector’s concerns about the possible designation of St Pancras as a port designated under CITES—the convention on international trade in endangered species—for artists carrying instruments made of protected materials. The number of CITES ports in the UK has already increased from 24 to 36 over the past year, and the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and Border Force are working together to look at the possibility of St Pancras being added to that list. I am keen to accelerate that.

The Government have engaged with the sector’s concerns about the restrictions to do with cabotage and cross-trade that apply to single-use trucks, issuing a call for evidence on options in the summer. It is worth reiterating that during negotiations for the TCA, we proposed specific market access rights for specialist hauliers carrying out tours for cultural events, but the EU did not agree. To help artists navigate such issues, we have developed creative sector-specific landing pages on gov.uk to signpost relevant guidance. We continue to work across the board to encourage updates to guidance and to ensure that rules are clear and accessible.

The UK’s cultural and creative industries are an integral part of our economy across the UK, and they play a huge role in a truly global Britain. That point was made by a number of hon. Members today. We continue to support our creative industries through a range of export support programmes, including the music export growth scheme. We also recently launched the export support service, where UK businesses can get answers to practical questions about exporting to Europe. In our meeting yesterday, a Department for International Trade official highlighted some of the new services available to musicians. These are all with a view to strengthening the international reach and reputation of our creatives, and the benefits they bring to our economy, culture and society. I will continue to work with Departments, the creative industries trade and investment board, and sector representatives, such as UK Music, to see what more can be done to help the industries adapt to these new arrangements with the EU.

To conclude, leaving the EU has led to a number of changes. We recognise the uncertainty and concerns felt by our musicians and the creative sectors, and my Department and the Government as a whole have worked very hard to support them. Across issues relating to the movement of people, goods and vehicles, we have engaged extensively with the sector to understand and grip those concerns and help people adapt. Like hon. Members, I want to see UK creatives tour and perform in the EU not just for our musicians but because they have so much to offer people in member states, and I hope we can make sure that can happen.

Oral Answers to Questions

Julia Lopez Excerpts

Thursday 18th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

13. What progress the Government have made to help support touring musicians work in Europe.

[The Minister for Media, Data and Digital Infrastructure (Julia Lopez)]

We are working hard to help touring musicians to work in Europe. Arrangements are, in many areas, much more workable than has been reported. I am pleased to say that after this week’s very good announcement from Spain, 21 member states now offer visa and work routes for musicians and performers. Accompanied portable musical instruments do not require a carnet and splitter vans are not subject to EU cabotage rules. We recognise, however, that challenges remain. I had a very productive meeting with the sector yesterday to work through remaining concerns. We also continue to work with the remaining six member states that do not allow visa and permit-free touring.

[Chris Elmore]

I appreciate what the Minister says in terms of Spain, although it should be pointed out that the industry is saying that it has been working with its counterparts in Spain and actually the Government have not been terribly helpful, so it has been up to the community themselves. The Minister mentions cabotage rules. As she has been working with the industry, will she set out when these issues will be resolved? It is all well and good having meetings, but if things are not resolved, we are destroying options for our talented musicians to travel around Europe. They cannot take their speakers and mics and all the other things that they need in order to do their jobs. The Government really should be doing so much better on this issue.

[Julia Lopez]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising his concerns. I reiterate that there has been a real team effort on this. We have had fantastic working with our embassy in Madrid, with the industry and with Ministers from across Government, so I would push back on that. We discussed some of the technical issues on transportation only yesterday with the Department for Transport, and there are various things that I am going to take away and discuss with the Secretary of State for Transport. These are very live issues. There is a debate later today where we can discuss these things in more detail, should he be minded.

[Alex Davies-Jones]

I wholeheartedly welcome the news that musicians will no longer need visas to go on short-term tours in Spain, and I am hugely grateful to those in the sector, particularly the Association of British Orchestras and Live, who have worked so tirelessly on the matter. This just goes to show that these problems are not insurmountable and can be overcome. However, as the Minister stated, there are still six member states where problems persist. Will she provide an update on the discussions she is having with those six member states so that musicians and touring bodies are able to carry out their work overseas?

[Julia Lopez]

Yes, we are hopefully going to use this moment with Spain to make progress with the remaining countries. As there are only six left, we think that we can make a lot of good progress, and we will be having meetings accordingly.

[Selaine Saxby (North Devon) (Con)]

8. What steps her Department is taking to help improve internet connections in rural communities.

[The Minister for Media, Data and Digital Infrastructure (Julia Lopez)]

Thanks to the work of the industry and record Government investment, we are making phenomenal progress to deliver the biggest broadband roll-out in UK history, and also tackling the digital divide between rural and urban areas. Some 60% of UK homes and businesses can now access gigabit-capable speeds, and over 97% can access superfast broadband. But there is much more to do, and I recently updated the House on our Project Gigabit delivery plan to target early coverage of those without superfast.

[Selaine Saxby]

I still have constituents in North Devon who are not part of either the rural roll-out programme backed by Building Digital UK or any commercial roll-out. However, some villages with commercial gigabit-capable fibre are being over-fibred by taxpayer-funded BDUK contracts. Will my hon. Friend work with organisations such as Connecting Devon and Somerset to give them more powers to edit contracts so that taxpayers’ money is not used to over-fibre?

[Julia Lopez]

I thank my hon. Friend, who is a formidable campaigner for her constituents in North Devon. I was glad to respond in more detail to some of her concerns in a debate we had last week. The telecoms market is thriving, as she knows, and there is a lot of movement on the ground. I assure her that officials in BDUK are working extremely closely with Connecting Devon and Somerset and local suppliers in Devon so that we can avoid over-build where possible. I am sure that we will be in touch very closely throughout this process to make sure that her constituents get what they need.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

The digital divide between cities and valleys is getting wider in south Wales. Gigabit broadband is essential for our economy, yet it has barely begun in Blaenau Gwent and we are being left behind. Will the Minister prioritise working with the Welsh Government and Ofcom to deliver better internet so that levelling up is not just a hollow slogan?

[Julia Lopez]

I am very keen to work with the Welsh Government, in so far as I can be helpful, with their roll-out. I completely agree with the hon. Gentleman about the importance of tackling the digital divide. This is going to be a real issue. We are very cognisant of it and looking to do all we can to make sure that there is not that disparity between those with great internet access and those who do not have it.

[Matt Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con)]

10. What steps her Department is taking to help support horse racing.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Speaker]

I am sure it is a straightforward yes, and then we can move on.

[The Minister for Media, Data and Digital Infrastructure (Julia Lopez)]

Yes.

[Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op)]

Up and down the country, local councils are setting their budgets for next year. Due to the lack of help in this Government’s Budget last month, there will be more closures of leisure centres and swimming pools. When will the sports Minister step in to provide funding to stop these devastating losses?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mick Whitley (Birkenhead) (Lab)]

Channel 4 makes an enormous contribution to job growth and region-based media production. In fact, of the 200 independent media production companies that Channel 4 has commissioned over the past two years, almost 140 rely on the broadcaster for at least half their work. Will the Minister concede that the privatisation of Channel 4 will endanger hundreds of jobs and make a mockery of the Government’s levelling-up agenda?

[Julia Lopez]

We are currently looking at all the consultation responses we have received on the question of whether to move ahead with the privatisation of Channel 4. We will look at the question of the independent sector and its health. The sector is thriving at the moment and the impact of the public service broadcasting sector on it is reducing, but it is something we will look closely at.

[Richard Burgon (Leeds East) (Lab)]

Joe Nihill, a 23-year-old former Army cadet from Whinmoor in my constituency, tragically took his own life after accessing so-called suicide forums. His mother Catherine and his sister-in-law Melanie are running an inspirational campaign to ensure that what happened to Joe does not happen to other families. As we wait for the online safety Bill to progress, will the Secretary of State join me in congratulating Catherine and Melanie on their inspirational campaign and in sending a firm message to tech giants that they will now have to take action to remove these suicide forums that prey on vulnerable people?

Telecommunications (Security) Bill

Julia Lopez Excerpts

Consideration of Lords amendments
Monday 8th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Media, Data and Digital Infrastructure (Julia Lopez)]

I beg to move, That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 4.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Lords amendment 5, and Government motion to disagree.

Lords amendments 1 to 3.

[Julia Lopez]

I am pleased that the Bill has returned to the House from the other place and for the chance to speak to it. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Boston and Skegness (Matt Warman) for his tremendous work in bringing it through the House earlier in this Session and in the last.

The Bill will create one of the toughest telecoms security regimes in the world. It will protect networks, even as technologies grow and evolve, shielding our telecoms critical national infrastructure both now and for the future. As the House will be aware, the Bill introduces a stronger telecoms security framework, which places new security duties on public telecoms providers and introduces new national security powers to address the risks posed by high-risk vendors.

I will briefly summarise the changes that have been made to the Bill. Lords amendments 1 to 3 were tabled by my colleague in the other place, Lord Parkinson. Lords amendment 4 relates to reporting on supply chain diversification and Lords amendment 5 relates to reviewing actions taken by Five Eyes nations regarding high-risk vendors. I will speak first to Lords amendments 1 to 3.

The important role of parliamentary scrutiny has been raised in debate throughout the passage of the Bill. In the other place, particular attention has been paid to scrutiny of our strengthened telecoms security framework. In its report on the Bill, the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee noted that the new codes of practice were central to this framework, as they will contain specific technical information for telecoms providers. The Committee recommended that the negative procedure should be applied to the issuing of codes of practice. We carefully considered the Committee’s recommendation over the summer, and tabled amendments 1 to 3 in the other place to accept them.

The amendments will require the Government to lay a draft of any code of practice before Parliament for 40 days. Both this House and the other place will then have a period of time to scrutinise the code of practice before it is issued. These amendments demonstrate that we have listened and that we are committed to every aspect of the framework receiving appropriate parliamentary scrutiny. I commend these amendments to the House.

I will now speak to Lords amendment 4, regarding diversification. This amendment would place an annual requirement on the Government to report on the impacts of their 5G telecoms diversification strategy on the security of public telecommunications networks and services. It would also require a debate in the House on that report. The Government cannot support the amendment for two reasons. The first objection relates to the flexibility necessary for diversification. A reporting requirement of this nature is restrictive and premature. This is an evolving market that is rapidly changing, and we need the flexibility to focus our attention where it will have the greatest impact. While our focus is currently on diversifying radio access networks, once that part of the mobile network has been diversified we will move on to focus on other areas. Committing to reporting on specific criteria would limit us to reporting against the risks as we find them today and would not afford us the flexibility that diversification requires.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

I am very interested in what the Minister says, because one of the major themes, and one of the big failures of the 5G debacle over Huawei, is the fact that we do not have diversification in the network. How will the Government be able to do a stocktake every year so that we as parliamentarians, and others, will be able to judge that what is being said about a commitment to diversification, which is in a lot of policy papers, is actually happening in practice?

[Julia Lopez]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his comment. Hon. Members will be able to raise in the normal way, through parliamentary questions, scrutiny at oral questions and Committee work, what we are doing in this area. We are reporting regularly on some of our diversification efforts and some of the money that we are spending from the spending review.

[Mr Jones]

I accept that, although the current Government’s response to parliamentary questions these days is sometimes lacking. What benchmark, then, will the Government use for ensuring diversification? I accept that the Minister is the Minister today, but there will possibly be a future Minister—she will not be there for ever—so how are we to judge that we are actually going to get that diversification? Without that, we will end up as we have done now, with a network that is market-led and diversification is not in the market.

[Julia Lopez]

I appreciate the right hon. Gentleman’s concerns. We are committed to reporting to the House on a regular basis, but we do not want to limit ourselves on specifically what we will be reporting on in technological terms, because this is a rapidly evolving marketplace and we need to make sure that we have the flexibility to deal with particular infrastructure challenges as and when they come along.

My sense is that this amendment is intended to hold the Government’s feet to the fire on delivering their diversification strategy. If that is the case, a reporting requirement of this nature is unnecessary. This House and the other place already have mechanisms to hold the Government to account through parliamentary questions, as I said, and through the various Select Committees that can ably scrutinise this work. That is the appropriate way for scrutiny to take place.

Our second objection relates to focus. This is, first and foremost, a national security Bill. It is intended to strengthen the security and resilience of all our public telecoms networks, be they fixed line or mobile—2G, 3G, 4G, 5G and beyond. While the Government’s 5G telecoms diversification strategy has been developed to support that objective, it is not the sole objective of the strategy. This is market-making work. It is not a panacea to raise the security of our public networks. Moreover, the current scope of the strategy is not to address the entire telecoms market but to diversify a specific subset of it. The amendment extends the Bill beyond its intended national security focus and creates an inflexible reporting requirement on a strategy that will need to continue to evolve. We have been insistent on this position, and that is why I ask that this House disagrees with Lords amendment 4.

Lords amendment 5 would require the Secretary of State to review decisions taken by Five Eyes partners to ban telecommunications vendors on security grounds. In particular, it would require the Secretary of State to review the UK’s security arrangements with the vendor and consider whether to issue a designated vendor direction, or take a similar action, in the UK. I welcome the intention behind the amendment, which demonstrates that those in all parts of this House and the other place take the security of this country and its people incredibly seriously.

However, while we support the spirit of the amendment, we cannot accept it for four reasons. First, the House will recall that the Bill will provide the Secretary of State with the power to designate specific vendors in the interests of national security for the purpose of issuing a designated vendor direction. In clause 16 there is a non-exhaustive list of factors that the Secretary of State may take into consideration when issuing these designation notices. That list illustrates the kinds of factors we proactively consider on an ongoing basis as part of our national security work. A decision by a Five Eyes partner, or any other international partner, to ban a vendor on security grounds could be considered as part of that process, so this amendment would require us to do something that has been part of the Bill from the outset.

[Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP)]

The key remark that the Minister made there was that it “could be” considered. We have seen the Government’s failures previously in relation to Huawei, so why should we have confidence moving forward that this will be any different?

[Julia Lopez]

I appreciate the hon. Member’s comments. When the Secretary of State is looking to designate a vendor, she will put that to the House to be scrutinised, and we will be scrutinised on this issue through the usual procedures that I have outlined in my previous comments.

[Sir Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford Green) (Con)]

I welcome the Minister to her place. If we look back over the past few months, even the past year or so, we see very much that the resistance early on by the UK Government with Huawei, when other Five Eyes countries were banning it, has led to a remarkable back-cost for replacing all this stuff because we failed to take an early decision. While the amendment may not be perfect, it indicates clearly a big weakness in the Government’s position, even in this very good Bill. If Five Eyes countries, which are our main allies in intelligence, spot there is a problem, we should pause, investigate the reasons why, and then come back to the House with the reasons why we disagree or agree. The amendment aims at doing that, so perhaps the Government should think about amending the Bill in such a way.

[Julia Lopez]

I appreciate my right hon. Friend’s comments, but it is important that we do not put in primary legislation the specific partners that we should have to listen to on these specific issues. It would create a hierarchy of diplomatic networks.

[Sir Iain Duncan Smith]

With respect, these are not specific partners; these are our closest allies when it comes to intelligence sharing. They do not get any closer than this. Working with them, as we do in sharing intelligence, means that using systems for sharing that intelligence would corrupt our own ability. I wonder whether the Minister could just slightly reset: these are not just partners.

[Julia Lopez]

I appreciate my right hon. Friend’s comments. The amendment would require us to do something that has been part of the legislation from the outset. We believe that our existing approach is the right way to continually consider the decisions of our international allies and partners, whether or not they are part of Five Eyes. That brings me to the second objection to the amendment, which is that it is unnecessary because we regularly engage with our Five Eyes partners and are committed to a close and enduring partnership with them. We agree with the other place that where possible, the UK Government should consider the actions of other countries when developing our own policies, and that is exactly what we do already. It is what we have been doing before and during the passage of this legislation.

The intelligence and security agencies across Five Eyes retain close co-operation, which includes frequent dialogue between the National Cyber Security Centre and its international partners. This dialogue includes the sharing of technical expertise on the security of telecoms networks and managing the risks posed by high-risk vendors. There are mechanisms in place for the NCSC to share this and wider information with the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport.

Collaboration with our Five Eyes partners forms an intrinsic part of our national security work. The alliance was not created through legislation and it has not required legislation for us to develop and strengthen that relationship, and the amendment would set an unhelpful precedent. We do not need the amendment to compel us to work with our Five Eyes partners.

That takes me to our third reason for resisting the amendment, which is that the UK needs to have the flexibility to develop and encourage international relationships in addition to Five Eyes. Naming individual countries in this way would set an unhelpful precedent for national security legislation in future. As I have acknowledged, it is important that we consider the policies of our Five Eyes partners, namely New Zealand, Canada, Australia and the US, when developing our own policies, but we also need to consider the policies of a wide range of other countries, including those of our European neighbours, such as France and Germany, and those of other nations, such as Japan, South Korea and India. Stipulating in primary legislation the countries whose policies the UK Government should consider when developing our own national security policies, whether Five Eyes or other countries, would be unhelpful, given the wide-ranging nature of our international collaboration. It would be highly unusual to refer to specific countries in legislation in this way, and this Bill is not the right place to create such a precedent.

The fourth reason for resisting the amendment is that it is impractical because of the many different ways in which other countries operate their national security decision making. The amendment would require us to act whenever a ban takes place in another Five Eyes country, but it may not be immediately clear when a country has taken a decision to ban a vendor, particularly if they have relied on sensitive intelligence to make that decision.

It may not always be apparent why a particular country has banned a particular vendor. There could be any number of reasons why a foreign Government would choose to restrict a company’s ability to operate within that country. Those reasons may not be based purely on national security grounds. I welcome the intention behind the amendment, but we cannot accept it because we feel that it is duplicative, impractical, restrictive and, ultimately, unnecessary.

In summary, the House is presented with a strengthened Bill as Lords amendments 1, 2 and 3 will increase the chances of parliamentary scrutiny of the telecoms security framework. As I have set out, however, it would be inappropriate to agree to Lords amendments 4 and 5. I thank the other place for its scrutiny of the Bill. I commend Lords amendments 1, 2 and 3 to the House and ask that the House disagrees with Lords amendments 4 and 5.

[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)]

I thank colleagues in the other place who have worked hard to improve the Bill. National security is the first duty of any Government and Labour will always put our country’s security first.

The pandemic has shown how important telecommunications networks are. I declare an interest as a former telecoms engineer, but I am sure I speak for the whole House in thanking all those who have kept our networks going during the pandemic. We have been dependent on them to work from home or to keep in touch with family and friends. This House could continue its important work thanks to telecommunications networks, as well as the hard work of House staff and the Speaker’s support.

A secure network is of the utmost importance. Labour welcomes the Bill’s intention while recognising its limitations. I am pleased that the Lords amendments that we are discussing reflect issues that Labour has been raising.

Lords amendment 1 seeks to improve transparency in the use of the Secretary of State’s powers to issue codes of practice to communications providers through the negative procedure. It reflects amendments that we tabled in Committee in response to the sweeping powers that the Bill gives to the Secretary of State and Ofcom. As the Comms Council UK said,

“the Minister will be able to unilaterally make decisions that impact the technical operation and direction of technology companies, with little or no oversight or accountability.”

The House has a duty to ensure that those powers are proportionate and accountable, so we are happy that the Government have bowed to pressure from Labour to strengthen parliamentary scrutiny, even if, in our view, it does not go far enough. Two consequential amendments to Lords amendment 1 set out the conditions for the 40-day scrutiny period and ensure that that time cannot be disrupted by recess or Prorogation so that this House and the other place have sufficient time to scrutinise the code.

Lords amendment 5 is cross party and designed to ensure that the Government review a vendor that is banned in a Five Eyes country. We support the amendment and find the Government’s opposition concerning, as we believe it could threaten our national security.

I find the Minister’s arguments against the amendment somewhat confused. She claims that the amendment is unnecessary because we already monitor Five Eyes countries and would always respond to the actions of our closest intelligence partners, but if that is true, why not formalise it? We are stronger together, specifically with our Five Eyes allies. Instead of putting forward further arguments, I turn to the eloquent explanation of Conservative peer Lord Blencathra:

“All it asks the Government to do…is to review the security arrangements with a telecoms provider if one of our vital, strategic Five Eyes partners bans its equipment. We are not calling for a similar immediate ban, or an eventual ban, we are just saying let us review it and come to a conclusion.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 19 October 2021; Vol. 815, c. 99.]

We will support the amendment.

Lords amendment 4 requires the Secretary of State to report on the diversification strategy’s impact on the security of telecommunications networks. It would also allow for a debate in this House on the report to further strengthen parliamentary scrutiny. Labour supports the removal of high-risk vendors from our telecoms networks, and given the grave situation into which successive Conservative Governments have allowed our networks to fall, it is essential that the Government have the powers to remove Huawei at speed. However, we are left with only two providers, and as we heard repeatedly at every stage of this Bill’s progression, two providers is not diverse, is not resilient and is not secure.

We cannot ensure national security without a diverse supply chain, but I fear that the Government still just do not get it. Let me just take two of the Minister’s arguments. The first argument seems to be, as far as I could comprehend it, that requiring reporting would be “restrictive and premature”, but surely if the Government’s intention is to diversify the supply chain—and we have heard that we cannot have a secure network without a diversified supply chain—the only way a reporting requirement would be limiting is if the Government have no actual intention of doing anything about diversifying it.

The Minister’s second argument seems to be that this is too technologically specific. Lords amendment 4 says:

“The Secretary of State must publish an annual report on the impact of progress of the diversification of the telecommunications supply chain on the security of public electronic communication networks and services.”

Would the Minister tell me what in that is specific as to the technology? Indeed, the only specific aspect of technology is a requirement to include future technologies that may be used as a platform, such as cloud computing. I find the Minister’s reasons for not supporting this amendment concerning. I fear that the Government are just not serious about diversifying our supply chain, and that they do not really have a plan for it.

The Minister mentioned asking parliamentary questions. Just last week, I asked her what funding was available for 5G diversification, and she talked about

“a Future RAN Competition (FRANC) and opening the doors of the SmartRAN Open Network Interoperability Centre (SONIC Labs).”

I want to know how diversification is being achieved and how local sovereign UK capability is being built, not an acronym soup that is ad hoc, hard to digest and dangerously complacent.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ms Nusrat Ghani (Wealden) (Con)]

I rise to speak in favour of Lords amendment 5, which was championed in the other place by my Friend, Lord Alton and which focuses on the Five Eyes partnership. The Minister said that the amendment was unnecessary, but I would argue that if she were to accept it, it would provide a safety net. Last year, the Government were forced into committing to removing Huawei equipment from the UK’s 5G network, which followed on from a ban by the US and Australian Governments. We had even found ourselves in a situation in which one of our closest allies publicly threatened to stop intelligence sharing with us for the first time in our 75-year partnership. I would argue that this amendment would ensure that we did not find ourselves in a similar place again.

Let me give the House an example. Despite being blacklisted by our closest ally for its ongoing links to the ongoing genocide in the Xinjiang, and a Chinese intelligence law which means that the company can not only harvest data but provide data back to the Chinese state, the surveillance company Hikvision continues to be embedded in councils, hospitals and city infrastructure up and down this country. Earlier this year, I led a Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee report, “Uyghur forced labour in Xinjiang and UK value chains”, which also looked at data harvesting. I was deeply unimpressed with Hikvision’s response, and I want to put on record that I thoroughly support the Foreign Affairs Committee’s recent recommendation that the Government should forbid Hikvision from operating in the UK. My Select Committee continues its work on Xinjiang, and I look forward to meeting TikTok in the near future.

The amendment would provide a fantastic safety net to ensure that we do not find ourselves in a difficult relationship with our Five Eyes partners again. Why would we want to risk that? I urge the Minister to recognise the motivation behind the amendment, which would enable trust and deepen our intelligence sharing alliances with our closest partners as well as ensuring security at home. I also urge the Minister, if she has the time, to read the “Uyghur forced labour in Xinjiang and UK value chains” report, and in particular to focus on article 7 of China’s national intelligence law, which states that any company that is registered in China has to provide data to the Chinese Communist party on demand, and also to deny to any other state that it is doing so.

[Julia Lopez]

With the leave of the House, I close this debate by thanking hon. Members for their contributions to the debate and for making a number of extremely important points about national security. I am keen to address those not only now, in this legislation, but in the future, through horizon scanning for some of the challenges that are coming up.

I appreciate that some of the trust in the system has been undermined by the Huawei situation, and I am sympathetic to concerns raised about reporting, diversification and resilience. My hon. Friend the Member for Solihull (Julian Knight) is absolutely right that this legislation is just one part of a wider security framework. The development of 5G and full-fibre networks brings new security challenges, which we must be prepared for.

This legislation sets up a strong regime for handling and removing high-risk vendors from our public networks, but it is just the start. Specific security measures will be set out in secondary legislation; there will be a lot of work to do in the next stage as we draw up that legislation, and we will be publishing a code of practice explaining the technical guidance that providers can follow to comply with legal duties.

The final secondary legislation and code will be agreed through public consultation, which I hope will provide another opportunity for hon. Members who have concerns in this area to provide adequate scrutiny. I am alive to some of those concerns, but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Boston and Skegness (Matt Warman) has outlined, MPs and Peers have had multiple chances to scrutinise and feed back on our diversification strategy, and we will continue to report on developments.

[Bob Stewart]

I remind the Minister that the members of the ISC present tonight have written to the national security adviser on the revision of the memorandum of understanding from the Prime Minister to the ISC. We really do expect some changes to that, so that we can close the gap on supervision of things that other Select Committees cannot look at.

[Julia Lopez]

I thank my right hon. Friend for that point. This issue has been raised throughout the passage of the Bill; I am alive to those concerns from the ISC, which bring particular expertise and scrutiny on matters on which others cannot, by virtue of their security importance. I understand that the ISC’s Chair has written to the Cabinet Office on the matters raised, but I wish to engage with the Committee on its important work. I believe I may—