Abortion (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2021
John Hayes Excerpts(3 years ago)
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Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab)
Thank you, Mr Hosie. I thank the Minister for his engagement and constructive approach on this issue. Like him, I respect the dearly held convictions of all those who make their case here today. I appreciate the strongly held, long-standing views of all those who have spoken and will speak today. But it is important to remember how we have reached this point and why these regulations are so important for women and girls in Northern Ireland. According to the United Nations, as we have heard, the existing laws amounted to a grave and systematic violation of women’s rights in Northern Ireland. This Parliament had, and still has, a duty to act to uphold those rights.
The amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) to the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 gave women in Northern Ireland a right to a safe, local abortion service. Parliament and MPs from political parties across the House made their will clear. No longer will we ask women to use unsafe, unregulated services or to make a heartbreaking journey across the Irish sea to seek an abortion in Britain. That is why, in the vote on it, the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend passed overwhelmingly. Nineteen months on from that vote, it is simply unacceptable that women and girls are still being denied safe, local services. This failure means that although the Act came into force more than a year ago, women are still being forced—in the middle of a pandemic—to make the heartbreaking journey across the Irish sea to seek an abortion.
It is worth reflecting on how an already cruel journey has been made even crueller in a pandemic. Many women and girls will have been forced to travel alone to unfamiliar cities that have been all but shut down, and denied a consoling hand or a smile. They have been forced to do so by political failure. Every single day that passes denies women the safe, local service that they are entitled to. At any time, that would be unacceptable; in a pandemic, it is morally unjustifiable.
Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) (Con)
The hon. Lady has cited the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) and what she said at the beginning of this process. At that time, she described the efforts that she was making as a mission to address “international obligations”. Are these international obligations or are they, as the explanatory notes say, not so?
Alex Davies-Jones
We have seen that this is an international obligation, and also a moral obligation, on us all. The CEDAW Act is clear, as is the UN, that we need to do the right thing to protect these women and girls.
I welcome the regulations before us today, which the Labour party wholeheartedly supports. They represent an important step forward in ending the cycle of inaction. However, I would be grateful if the Minister, in summing up, could provide some clarity on when exactly the powers would be used. He mentioned before the summer recess that this matter really cannot wait any longer. These women and girls need action now. Will the Government please give us an exact deadline for when the Secretary of State intends to use the powers in the regulations? He knows there is a court case in May relating to the human rights implications of the failure to commission these services. Will he act before then?
The Minister also mentioned that he has engaged extensively with Minister Swann, so will he provide an update on the discussions he has had with the Minister of Health and the Executive since the Government announced their intention to introduce fresh legislation? Has there been any indication of an intention to finally commission abortion services from the Executive? Will he also provide the Committee with an estimate of the number of women and girls already impacted by this inaction—those denied local services, those forced to use unregulated services and those who have been forced to travel to Britain?
As a Welsh Member of Parliament, I understand well the sensitivities around the devolution settlement, but I believe that the United Kingdom is at its best when we work together to uphold fundamental rights, and the obligation to do that lies with this Parliament and this UK Government. The Labour party has always been clear that where such rights are denied, there is a moral and legal duty for the Government to act. That is happening now in Northern Ireland. Quality healthcare and safe, local abortion services are a basic right. The time to act has long come and gone. For the sake of women and girls in Northern Ireland, it is vital that access to services is commissioned immediately.
Miriam Cates
I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. I understand that the regulations are law as things stand, but I will urge the Government later in my contribution to repeal section 9, which I believe is the right and moral thing to do.
It would be one thing for this legislation to bring Northern Ireland’s abortion framework in line with that for Great Britain, but the measures go beyond Great Britain equivalents. They mandate an abortion regime that is quite unrestricted and, I believe, unsafe. Unlike in England and Wales, there will be no requirement for two doctors to certify, and abortion will be routinely available at GP’s surgeries rather than only in restricted places. Although I appreciate the Government’s requirement for safeguards, the regulations could permit sex-selective abortion by default, as they allow abortion for any reason until 12 weeks’ gestation.
Sir John Hayes
What my hon. Friend is saying is, frankly, shocking. She is saying that, far from the claim that we are bringing Northern Ireland into line with the rest of the United Kingdom, Northern Ireland’s laws on abortion will be entirely different from those that pertain to the rest of the United Kingdom—considerably more permissive, and therefore further out of line with local opinion even than the laws that prevail in England, Wales and Scotland.
Miriam Cates
I thank my right hon. Friend for his intervention. I appreciate that this is a very emotive issue, as other hon. Members have said. Many of us have different opinions—I fully accept hon. Members’ opinions—but I would like to make progress on the particular point of view that I bring to this issue.
The enforcement of the regulations could not only permit sex-selective abortion, but allow abortion up to birth for babies with disabilities—even those disabilities that do not prevent people from living fulfilling lives. I am particularly concerned that, without necessary safeguards, women in abusive relationships may be coerced into abortions. The regulations and their enforcement introduce new possibilities for sex and disability discrimination, and go far beyond what is legally necessary or even safe.
Huw Merriman (Bexhill and Battle) (Con)
Given the various opinions and comments that I have been listening to, I thought it was poignant and relevant to reflect on the words of Lady Hale in the Supreme Court judgment of 2018, when the Court determined the matter of abortion in Northern Ireland. She said that
“this is not a matter on which the democratic legislature enjoys a unique competence. It is a matter of fundamental human rights on which, difficult though it is, the courts are as well qualified to judge as is the legislature. In fact, in some ways, the courts may be thought better qualified, because they are able to weigh the evidence, the legal materials, and the arguments in a dispassionate manner, without the external pressures to which legislators may be subject.”
I contend that she might have had this room and this debate in mind when she made that point.
Sir John Hayes
My hon. Friend is making an extremely contentious point, of course, with his usual style and elegance. He is saying that the Court took the view that it was better able to judge sensitive, controversial matters than democratically elected people are. That is, by the way, precisely the same view it took about Brexit, and it is extremely controversial and in my view reprehensible.
Sir John Hayes
It is a cause of regret when a confused Parliament does the wrong thing, but it is a cause of sorrow when a Government make that worse. The prevailing parliamentary confusion is based on a calumnia. To highlight the absurdity of where we stand, the Government now effectively acknowledge that today’s vote was secured on the basis of a misunderstanding, a misinterpretation, a mistaken grasp of what we had to do and must do. The argument of its protagonists on 9 July 2019 about section 9, to which these regulations pertain, was that it was vital to ensure that we met “our international obligations”. Indeed, after 9 July, even the Government suggested that that was the case. When confronted with the Stormont vote of 2 June 2020, the Secretary of State explicitly told the BBC that it made no difference because of our convention obligations.
However, the explanatory notes for today’s Committee make it crystal clear that none of that is the case. They say, of paragraphs 85 and 86 of the CEDAW report—I draw the Committee’s attention to these explanatory notes, for the purpose of clarity—that
“those recommendations are not binding and do not constitute international obligations.”
That directly contradicts what the House was told by the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) and others in July 2019. I have here her speech, in which she describes them as just that, “international obligations” that must be addressed.
The most striking thing about the regulations before us is how different they are from the last section 9 regulations—those of 2020. The 2020 regulations were concerned with abortion, but these regulations are much wider in scope, as my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge said. A clumsy, catch-all, calamitous approach is typical of the way Westminster has handled this topic. It still seems extraordinary to me that we should have greeted the restoration of Stormont in January 2020 with a vote only five months later to undermine devolution in respect of such a sensitive policy area.
We have heard from the Northern Irish representatives here, who after all speak directly for those who are affected by the regulations we are debating. Quite what the feeling is like in that place, a feeling expressed both in public consultation and in the votes in the now reconstituted Assembly—
Sir John Hayes
I will come back to those matters in a moment; first, I happily give way to the hon. Lady.
Charlotte Nichols
The point that the right hon. Gentleman made regarding people being directly affected by this is, I think, false. When I was a teenager and had my own abortion at the Liverpool Women’s Hospital, there were women and girls from Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland who had travelled to Liverpool for that service, and we have heard today about the number of people who are travelling over. It is not only people in Northern Ireland who are affected by this, because in areas such the one I represent, in GB, there will be people who are struggling to get on the waiting list for these services because people who should be able to access them in their own communities in Northern Ireland are having to travel here to get them. That is what we are seeking to address today.
Sir John Hayes
But these regulations apply to Northern Ireland, and what I said was that the people in the Committee who are elected in Northern Ireland by the people of Northern Ireland have spoken with absolute clarity about the views there—expressed not only in the Assembly and by both communities in Northern Ireland, by the way, but in every poll and test of opinion that has been taken in Northern Ireland, including among women. I think we have to pay some heed, rather as I pay heed to the hon. Lady’s experience from her own part of the country, to those who speak for and represent Northern Ireland.
It is unsurprising—
Sir John Hayes
I will. I am going to give my hon. Friend a short lecture on law in a minute, because he is confused about it, as he was the last time we met in this Committee. Before I give way, perhaps he will chew on this. The Act to which the Good Friday agreement gave rise, the Northern Ireland Act 1998, says, at section 26, that there are only three grounds on which Westminster can intervene in a devolved matter in Northern Ireland: giving effect to international obligations; safeguarding defence or national security; and protecting public safety or public order. Given that we now know, from the explanatory notes for the Committee, that these were not international obligations, on what grounds are we doing what this Committee is being invited to do today, and on what grounds did we in Parliament pass the law that gives rise to these regulations?
Huw Merriman
I do not need a lecture in law because, quite frankly, I do not think my right hon. Friend is qualified. I referenced the judgment from the Supreme Court, which is qualified to give a judgment, that made it absolutely clear that the international obligations with regard to articles 3 and 8 of the European convention on human rights were not being complied with. Ultimately, neither of us is qualified on that front, unless he is going to become a Supreme Court judge.
The point that I wanted to make was on the suggestion that the Government, in what was a free vote, managed to dupe MPs to vote 328 in favour and 65 against. My right hon. Friend knows as well as I do that, when the Government try to fix free votes, Parliament, because it knows its own mind, tends to do the opposite of what the Government say. Does he really think that MPs are completely stupid in a free vote and do not know their own mind?
Sir John Hayes
I would never say that all MPs are completely stupid, as you know, Mr Hosie, but if my hon. Friend does not value as highly as he ought to the 1998 Act and the devolution settlement that arose from the Good Friday agreement, perhaps he will recognise two other pieces of law that are directly pertinent to our considerations.
The first is the 2005 agreement, whereby the devolved constitutional settlement in Northern Ireland established the consent for constitutional change, described as a fundamental principle of devolution. It made clear that in terms of constitutional change it was essential that the Northern Ireland Assembly took a view, and indeed made a decision, that was consistent with anything that this Parliament did. That is the underlying principle of consent in the devolved arrangement.
Moreover—I know my hon. Friend will have read his papers very closely before coming to the Committee—the Delegated Legislation Committee that looked at the matters before us made it very clear that what we are being asked to do today is entirely exceptional in terms of the devolution settlement for Northern Ireland or anywhere else in the United Kingdom. Unprecedented was the word that the Committee that studied the regulations before they came to us used to describe them.
It is unacceptable to argue that because we took a decision when there was no Assembly, now that the Assembly has been re-established, we should ride roughshod over the view that it took and that it takes about the issue. It is inexcusable that the explanatory memorandum should suggest that the new regulations, which are so much wider than the 2020 regulations, should depend on the consultation process for the 2020 regulations, which in any event was sharply criticised as being far too short and deeply controversial.
Having had a deeply controversial and inadequate consultation process for the first regulations, we have now introduced regulations that are more wide ranging and that could, as my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge suggested, lead to—
Sir John Hayes
Before I give way to the Minister, I pay personal tribute to him, because he has been incredibly courteous throughout; I have had many exchanges with him on the matter. I know that his personal views on these matters are not a million miles from mine, but I do not want to embarrass him by saying more than that. The truth is that he knows that with these regulations there is a possibility of us ending up with, rather than a circumstance whereby the availability of abortion in Northern Ireland is equivalent to that in the other parts of the United Kingdom, a circumstance, as my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge said, whereby abortion in Northern Ireland is offered more permissively than elsewhere. Perhaps he can correct me.
Mr Walker
I am very happy to correct my right hon. Friend on that point. I am certainly happy that we have had constructive engagement, and I hope that all Members on both sides of the House, and on both sides of the debate, will recognise the willingness to engage on these issues.
May I come back to my right hon. Friend’s suggestion that today’s regulations are wider in some way than the 2020 regulations? This is simply about the implementation of the 2020 regulations. Today’s regulations make no change whatever to them; they are simply about ensuring that what the House put into law in 2020 is delivered.
Sir John Hayes
The Minister says that, but it is clear from reading the regulations that, in certain circumstances, abortion can take place up to birth and that the 1967 Act’s insistence on two medical practitioners authorising abortion will not necessarily apply in Northern Ireland. I regard both those things as a more permissive application of the law than the one that pertains.
The 1967 Act may well be applied in theory more than in practice—I should not want to comment on that—but at the very least the risk of the more permissive regime that my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge described concerns the people of Northern Ireland, who fear that what is imposed on them might not only go against the expressed will of the people, but be altogether worse than that.
The hon. Member for Walthamstow made it perfectly clear that the essence of the argument used when the law was passed was that as there was no Assembly we had to act. She argued:
“I understand that, if it was not for the fact that we do not have an Assembly, this would absolutely not be the right way forward”.—[Official Report, 9 July 2019; Vol. 663, c. 183.]
That is what she said, with not a great deal of elegance; none the less, her point is made: it would absolutely “not be the right way forward.”
If it was “not the right way forward”, why on earth have we continued to pursue this path? When the Assembly was reformed, with a new Government, we had an opportunity to think again. It would not have been a huge step, given that the Assembly had the chance to vote on the matter. It has all the appearance of the Government dictating their will and of Parliament insisting that devolution counts only when the devolved Assemblies agree with people here. That is not something that you, Mr Hosie, I nor any democrat in this place could possibly sanction.
We must think too about the consequences for the Union and the continuing pertinence and relevance of devolution. If people in Northern Ireland come to believe what I have suggested—that their right to self-government is condoned by a Parliament that is so arrogant that it says that when they do not agree with the prevailing view here their rights can be torn away from them—how can they possibly continue to believe in the settlement or, indeed, even in the Union?
I was recently contacted by a clergyman from County Fermanagh, who decried the regulations as the final nail in the coffin of devolution. Indeed, an open letter was sent to the Prime Minister from 250 church leaders opposing today’s proposals. On at least four occasions, we have actively ignored the expressed will of Northern Ireland’s representatives on a matter of great importance to many in the Province. First, as has been noted, on 19 July 100% of Northern Ireland Members who take their seats voted against the process that resulted in section 9—a Northern Ireland-only provision on a devolved matter. Let me repeat that: a Northern Ireland-only provision on a devolved matter—a matter expressly devolved to Northern Ireland, yet it was imposed despite that opposition from Members who hold a specific mandate to represent the people there. At that moment we told the people of Northern Ireland that the voices of those elected to represent them would be ignored, and their history and deeply held views on this matter of conscience disregarded. By extension, we told the people of Northern Ireland that their opinion did not matter.
Secondly, we ignored the voice of the people of Northern Ireland in the consultation on the 2020 regulations, in which 79% of participants said they did not want the measure to proceed—seventy-nine per cent. is an even greater percentage than I managed to secure of the vote in South Holland and The Deepings—not much greater, but somewhat.
Thirdly, we ignored the voices of the people of Northern Ireland when we insisted on welcoming the restoration of the Northern Ireland Assembly while simultaneously ignoring its clear vote last year to reject the 2020 regulations. We now seek to forsake them again by forgoing further public consultation on the new regulations, at a time when the Assembly is working as intended, providing extensive and conscientious scrutiny of an imposed policy of the utmost sensitivity and profound local concern.
Carla Lockhart
I noted this with regard to my own speech but did not reference it. If the Committee was forcing a devolved issue on Scotland or Wales, would Members in this place agree to it? I think back to two examples. In 1957, Westminster voted to impose the flooding of the Tryweryn valley in Wales—
Carla Lockhart
Thank you, Mr Hosie. My point is that Welsh MPs voted against that, but the Government forced it through, which was recently described as “shameful”.
The same applies with the poll tax in Scotland, about which David Cameron apologised in 2006. One would hope that the lesson had been learned about not forcing things on the devolved Administrations, because that undermines and damages the Union. Therein lies my broad point.
Sir John Hayes
That is true, and the Committee that considered this issue before this Committee said that it was unprecedented in respect not only of Northern Ireland, but of any of the devolved nations. The decision that this Committee looks set to take—I will not put it more strongly than that—in supporting the regulations is so exceptional as to be noteworthy, as I described, and the hon. Lady has amplified.
It has been acknowledged that these issues understandably give rise to strong views, but on a matter as sensitive as this what is happening is particularly reprehensible. It would be reprehensible on a constitutional basis, regardless of the issue, but on a matter that causes such grave concern in Northern Ireland it is all the more so.
Today’s regulations are the continuation of a process that has fallen far short of the standards to which we as legislators should hold ourselves. I am not for one minute suggesting that people in Scotland and Wales think as the people of Northern Ireland do concerning abortion, but the precedents flowing from the way in which we are treating Northern Ireland with respect to the sustainability of the current devolution settlement across our kingdom are obvious.
Do not tell me that this is a matter of the sovereignty of Parliament, which we have heard suggested once or twice. Parliament has been sovereign since 1707. The fact that it can do certain things does not mean that it must do all things or should even do those things that it can. Parliament is sovereign by way of our constitution. By that constitution, it constrains itself by convention, and there are few more important conventions than upholding the Union and the Acts of Parliament that underpin it.
I recommend our Attorney General’s views on judicial activism and the creeping role of the Supreme Court in making public policy. If those views are not sufficiently persuasive, I recommend the views of the former Supreme Court judge, Lord Sumption, who has been clear that democratic legitimacy relies on the judiciary knowing what its constraints should be.
Mrs Miller
Surely my right hon. Friend is arguing against himself. If the Committee decides not to act today in introducing laws that improve the situation in Northern Ireland the Supreme Court will have no better action to take than effectively to put law in place of a vacuum. The current situation has been judged to be in convention with human rights, so we have no choice other than to act on that particular point.
Sir John Hayes
My right hon. Friend is right; the Government’s best course of action is to repeal the changes that were made when there was no devolution settlement. There is the prospect of further legal challenge, which I would certainly strongly support given all the things I said earlier about the 1998 Act establishing the devolution settlement; about the fact that this has been described again today by a Committee of this Parliament as being unprecedented; and about the basis on which the Assembly was reassembled and its legal underpinning. What we are doing today is highly questionable and I recommend that the Government think again.
The Minister says that Northern Ireland has some opportunity to interpret the regulations and come forward with its own settlement that stays within the law but does not go as far as some would want. That is true. Northern Ireland can come forward with a settlement, but these regulations are effectively a gun to the head of the people of Northern Ireland, saying, “Either you do what we want by your own decision or we will decide for you.” I hesitate to say anything critical of the Minister because I regard him highly, but it is a slightly deceptive argument to suggest that the Northern Irish can sort this out when a gun is being placed against their heads.
Not for nothing are many people in Northern Ireland very proud of the “One Hundred Thousand” report, confirmed by the Advertising Standards Authority as showing that probably 100,000 people are alive in Northern Ireland today who would not be had the Province embraced the Abortion Act 1967.
Moreover, when talking about the sovereignty of Parliament we must recall that a key aspect is that no Parliament can bind its successors. Section 9 was passed in a Bill the introduction of which defined its purpose in terms of the restoration of the Executive. That was in a previous Parliament and it could have been—it would and should have been—this Government’s course of action to say, “That was then and now is now.” A different Parliament and a different set of arrangements in Northern Ireland necessitates a different approach. That would not have been unreasonable given what I said about the need to maintain the integrity of devolution.
Rather than asking Parliament to pass these regulations, the Government should recognise the current reality and instead ask our new Parliament to welcome the restoration of the Assembly and to repeal section 9, as I said in response to my right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke. In making that point, I would say to the advocates of abortion that that would be a debate to have across the House, but more especially in Northern Ireland. If those who want abortion to be more widely available in Northern Ireland make their case and persuade their elected representatives to share that view, living in a democratic kingdom, the majority view will prevail.
It is important to say that the regulations are of course about abortion and its availability in the Province, but they are about something much more: how much we value devolved decision making, how much we respect the different opinions that prevail in different parts of this kingdom and how much we really believe that the sovereignty of this Parliament is enhanced when we are big enough to say that people in different parts of the kingdom can come to different conclusions from the majority view here.
Do we care so little about the distinct regional identities of our Union, unless we take exactly the same approach to abortion in Northern Ireland as in the rest of the United Kingdom, that we would extinguish people’s opinions and eliminate the majority view there? Are we to honour devolution only when those to whom we give power agree with us? Will the Government be content to build their future on past mistakes? Is this an Administration who listen, or do they dictate?
To misunderstand the salience of those questions, or the significance of the answers, would be among the worst political miscalculations of any Conservative Government since the Union began in 1707. As we sit under the gaze of Joseph Chamberlain—
Karin Smyth
The Act of Union 1707 did not apply to Ireland, only to Scotland.
Sir John Hayes
That is true, but I did not claim otherwise. I said this would be one of the biggest mistakes since then.
As we sit under the gaze of Joseph Chamberlain, the radical who in the end became allied to the Conservative Government, and who always put conviction above convenience, perhaps today members of the Committee should put principle and conviction first, not convenience, and think again about the regulations. I invite Conservative members of the Committee—and, I hope, members across it—to oppose the regulations because that would send a signal to Government to think again, to listen, to redraw their plans and to behave in a way that maintains our Union, respects devolution and shows that, rather than ploughing ahead regardless, the Government are sensitive to the wishes and interests of the people in every part of the United Kingdom.
Abortion in Northern Ireland
John Hayes Excerpts(3 years, 1 month ago)
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Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) (Con) [V]
Given what the Secretary of State has just said about people being misled, will he be clear that the assertion that Northern Ireland is violating human rights obligations is simply untrue? CEDAW reports are not binding in law and the CEDAW convention, which is, does not even mention abortion.
Surely the Secretary of State must know that the imposition of this measure, against the express democratic wishes of the people of Northern Ireland, is not only unjust and unwelcome, but rooted in an entirely invalid assertion?
Brandon Lewis
I say to my right hon. Friend that this is a matter of domestic law; I have been clear about that. It is about the legal obligation taken forward from this House in 2019. It requires us and the Northern Ireland Executive to ensure that they have an offer and services that are CEDAW-compliant. My right hon. Friend is absolutely right that the implication and obligation of that are in domestic law; it is not an international law issue. But it is a domestic law.
These regulations are not actually about opening up the abortion laws themselves; they are about applying the laws in place that mean that Northern Ireland women and girls will have access to care in the same way as they would elsewhere in the United Kingdom.
Abortion (Northern Ireland) (No. 2) Regulations 2020
John Hayes Excerpts(3 years, 10 months ago)
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Mr Walker
The hon. Gentleman mentions treaties, but I did not; I mentioned a legal obligation, under which the House of Commons has placed us through section 9 of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019. As he will know, as a result of an urgent question last week, we debated at some length the fact that we were bringing this forward, and I provided answers as to why we were doing so, rather than—as some in his party suggested—repealing section 9. I think this is a perfectly rational approach to delivering on the commitments that the House has placed on us under the 2019 Act.
Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) (Con)
I am grateful to the Minister, who has behaved with genuine courtesy throughout the whole of this process. Would he comment on whether, in the write-round that precedes these things, our Attorney General expressed any concerns in respect of the legal and constitutional implications of these regulations? I appreciate that the Minister cannot detail any concerns—that would be inappropriate—but were concerns expressed by the Attorney General about the legal and constitutional implications?
Mr Walker
As my right hon. Friend knows very well, the Government never comment on legal advice. However, he is quite right to refer to the fact that there has been a write-round process, and the Attorney General of the United Kingdom has supported that process to allow these regulations to move forward.
This statutory instrument, the Abortion (Northern Ireland) (No. 2) Regulations 2020, came into force on 14 May and revoked the earlier regulations. These regulations have been made in accordance with the statutory duty that Parliament imposed on the Government last summer through section 9 of the 2019 Act. That duty was to make regulations to provide for lawful access to abortion services in Northern Ireland in a way that implemented the recommendations in paragraphs 85 and 86 of the 2018 United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women report of the inquiry concerning the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, under article 8 of the optional protocol of the convention on the elimination of all forms of discrimination against women. The CEDAW recommendations mandate access to abortion services at least in the cases of
“(i) Threat to the pregnant woman’s physical or mental health without conditionality of ‘long-term or permanent’ effects;
(ii) Rape and incest; and
(iii) Severe foetal impairment, including FFA, without perpetuating stereotypes towards persons with disabilities and ensuring appropriate and ongoing support, social and financial, for women who decide to carry such pregnancies to term.”
Mr Walker
I respect the hon. Lady and the position from which she is arguing, but the Northern Ireland Assembly has had many opportunities to take forward these issues and provide a framework that would address the requirements of CEDAW, and it has not taken them. As she refers to the debate, I reiterate what I said in response to the urgent question last week: the Northern Ireland Assembly chose to vote on one aspect of these regulations and said that it did not like it. It did not debate the full details of the regulations themselves, and it did not provide a way forward that is compliant with CEDAW. I am very happy for it to debate these issues and take them forward, but it must do so in a way that is CEDAW compliant. It has every right to do that and reform these regulations, should it choose to do so in a way that is CEDAW compliant.
I appreciate that this is an issue on which views are deeply held, and I respect the fact that people coming at it from either side of the argument are doing so with the best interests of others in mind. I have no doubt that the arguments that we will hear today, across the whole spectrum of opinion on the subject, come from the heart and will be well informed. The starting point for the framework was that, as a result of the repeal of sections 58 and 59 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861, from 22 October 2019 carrying out an abortion is no longer a criminal offence, except for late-term abortion, to which the offence of destroying a child capable of being born alive would still apply.
In relation to complying with the statutory duty on the Government, our overarching policy aims were to ensure that the framework protects and promotes the health and safety of women and girls, provides clarity and certainty for the medical profession, and is responsive and sensitive to the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly being restored from January, where our legal obligation remained to act on this issue.
Towards the end of last year, we publicly consulted on the proposals for the new legislative framework. The consultation gave people and organisations in Northern Ireland an opportunity to provide input and views on how we could best deliver an abortion framework consistent with our statutory duty. We were clear in that consultation that this is not about whether the Government should deliver on our statutory duty, but rather about how we can most effectively deliver a framework as required.
The Government have engaged with a range of stakeholders in Northern Ireland during this process and in recent months, including political parties, medical professionals, women’s groups, abortion service providers, trade unions, civil society organisations, individuals with lived experience and church groups. We listened to feedback expressed in the consultation process and through various engagements, and we have responded accordingly. We have sought to balance the range of views against our statutory duty, and to take pragmatic decisions informed by evidence.
Many stakeholders have welcomed the regulations, including the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission. It is our firm view that the regulations provide a new legislative framework that is operationally sound, works best for Northern Ireland and delivers on the Government’s statutory duty.
Sir John Hayes
On the issue of the legality of these regulations, I understand the Minister’s reticence about discussing the legal advice from our Attorney General, but he will know that Northern Ireland’s Attorney General has also commented, and made those comments publicly available. That gentlemen has argued that regulations 7 and 12 are ultra vires and that, in respect of regulation 13, the Secretary of State may have been guilty of misdirection. Those are very serious remarks from a Law Officer. Would that advice not make it almost impossible to receive these regulations in Northern Ireland?
Mr Walker
My right hon. Friend refers to the Attorney General’s comments to the Executive, which, as he says, he has made public.
I am, for my part, very confident that we have the vires under the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 to carry forward the legislation. I have to say to my right hon. Friend, whom I greatly respect, that this issue has been a matter of contention over a long period. He, like me, would much rather that Northern Ireland politicians had been able to address the issue together and take it forward, but that has not proven to be the case. It was in recognition of that that this House told the Government to take action on this issue.
Mr Walker
The hon. Gentleman refers to statistics, and numbers of people. These are contested matters; we hear of different polls giving different results on these issues. What is very clear is that this Parliament mandated the Government to deliver on this issue. We have the vires to do so, and we have sought to do.
Mr Walker
It was the last Parliament, as my right hon. Friend points out. I believe that the majority by which that Parliament, on a free vote, mandated the Government to do this was around two thirds. I think it is very clear that this is the right thing to do, partly because of the issues raised by the hon. Member for North Down.
I know that a number of hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Strangford when he just spoke, have expressed that this has resulted in what they view as a more liberal regime than in Great Britain. I do not believe that that is the case, and we have sought to ensure proper and appropriate implementation of the CEDAW recommendations, in a way that means that the outcomes delivered will be equivalent to those in the rest of the UK, to ensure that women and girls have the same access to services in similar circumstances.
Therefore, many of the provisions in the regulations mirror provisions under the Abortion Act 1967 on such issues as conscientious objection to ensure consistency in the provision of services across the UK. The Government’s response to the consultation, published on gov.uk, sets out further detail on how the Government made their decision on each element of the framework, and the reasons behind each decision.
I will briefly turn to an overview of the key elements of the regulations. They provide for access to abortions without conditionality up to 12 weeks’ gestation. We judge that that provision is proportionate and appropriate in order to implement the CEDAW recommendation of ensuring access in cases of sexual crime, while avoiding building a system that could lead to further trauma for victims of rape or incest, or act as a barrier to access for those victims. A barrier to access would, in the Government’s view, be a breach of the CEDAW requirements.
Without a period of access without conditionality, the duty to report a crime that applies to everyone in Northern Ireland, including medical professionals, could create a perceived barrier to access for victims of sexual crime and lead to women or girls seeking alternative, unsafe options outside the health system, which we want to avoid now that there is lawful access. We know that that was an issue in preventing access to even the very limited scope of abortions that were legally available prior to October 2019.
The regulations also set out three further circumstances in which an abortion is legal: first, up to 24 weeks’ gestation, in cases where the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk or injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or girl greater than the risk of terminating the pregnancy; and, secondly, in cases of severe foetal impairment and fatal foetal abnormalities with no gestational time limit. That is where there is a substantial risk that the condition of the foetus is such that the death of the foetus is likely before, during or shortly after birth; or, if the child were born, it would suffer from such physical or mental impairment as to be seriously disabled. The third set of circumstances are cases where there is a risk to the life of the woman or girl greater than if the pregnancy were terminated or, where necessary, to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or girl, including in cases of immediate necessity—with no gestational time limit.
In such cases, the regulations require that two medical professionals, as defined in the regulations, certify in good faith that the ground has been met. Abortions are also allowed where it is immediately necessary to save the life, or to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health, of the pregnant woman. The CEDAW report is silent on the question of gestational limit in such circumstances. We consider that the above grounds are an appropriate way of delivering on our statutory duty and implementing the recommendations of the report in a way that will work effectively in practice. An intentional contravention of the requirements to certify that an opinion has been reached in good faith that one of the grounds under the regulations has been met to allow the abortion is punishable by a fine of up to £2,500.
The regulations allow for abortions to be provided by a doctor, nurse or midwife. They may be carried out in general practitioners’ premises, clinics provided by a health and social care trust, and health and social care trust hospitals, operating under the overall Northern Ireland health and social care framework. Early medical abortions are carried out by taking two pills. The regulations allow the second pill to be taken at a woman’s home, following the first pill being taken at an approved location. That mirrors the approach used in the rest of the United Kingdom.
The regulations allow the Department of Health in Northern Ireland to approve other places where abortions may take place—a power that mirrors the power for the Secretary of State under the Abortion Act. That could be used, for example, to approve third or private sector provision, or to enable greater use of telemedicine.
The regulations require the medical professional to notify the chief medical officer of the Northern Ireland Department of Health of the abortion, alongside other relevant data specified in the regulations. The Department of Health in Northern Ireland will then be responsible for annual publication of relevant data. To ensure confidentiality and the protection of personal data, the regulations impose restrictions on how the data can be used. Disclosure of information notified to the chief medical officer, other than in accordance with the regulations, is an offence punishable by a fine of up to £2,500.
We recognise the strongly held beliefs about abortion. That is why the regulations make it clear that no one will be required to take part in treatment for abortion to which they have a conscientious objection. The only exception is where that treatment is necessary to save the life, or to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of a pregnant woman.
That protection mirrors precisely the conscientious objection provision in the Abortion Act, is consistent with the interpretation of that provision by the Supreme Court, and does not extend to the ancillary, administrative and managerial tasks that might be associated with that treatment. The Government are satisfied that the current scope of the conscientious objection provision works satisfactorily in the rest of the UK, is human rights compliant, and is therefore appropriate to apply in Northern Ireland to the provision of abortion services under the regulations.
Finally, the regulations impose a criminal sanction on anyone who intentionally terminates or procures the termination of the pregnancy of a woman otherwise than in accordance with the regulations. That is about where someone is acting dishonestly or negligently, and it will not apply where a termination was done in good faith for the purpose only of saving the woman’s life or preventing grave permanent injury to the woman’s physical or mental health. It is not intended that a medical professional should be prosecuted where they form an honest opinion in good faith as to risk, but makes a factual error.
As an additional protection for medical professionals, the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions is required before proceedings can be brought under the regulations. Other criminal laws will continue to apply, including section 25 of the Criminal Justice Act (Northern Ireland) 1945, which prohibits the destruction of a child otherwise capable of being born alive. However, the regulations make relevant amendments necessary to ensure that abortions carried out in accordance with the regulations by the relevant medical professionals are not contrary to section 25 of the 1945 Act, and no woman or girl can be prosecuted with respect to ending her own pregnancy.
Sir John Hayes
In her advocacy of clarity and certainty, perhaps we can be clear and certain about those who were just named in the intervention by the hon. Member for Upper Bann. Can I ask a straightforward question? Will she back the Bill that will be presented to the House to prohibit the abortion of people with cleft lips and palates or clubbed feet, who are currently under the law in this country, let alone in Northern Ireland, being aborted, but could live and be successfully treated?
Mrs Miller
I will look carefully at the measure that my right hon. Friend is talking about because although this is a live debate, it should not fog what is a wrong and inappropriate system in Northern Ireland where women in very difficult situations have not been able to access a service which I am afraid his and my constituents would take for granted. That is not right.
Sir David, I will make progress and I am sorry to colleagues who would like to intervene—maybe I should speak a little more before accepting any further interventions. The simple truth that we found when we spoke to people on the ground in Northern Ireland of all views—it is our obligation as a Select Committee to have done that—was that there were some doctors who believed that referring women for an abortion in England was unlawful—fact; and that women were being forced to bring back the remains of their foetuses in their hand luggage because they were not able to be treated more formally for fear of being reported to the police. These are the sorts of things that we found in the Select Committee inquiry—practices that we would not accept in any other part of the United Kingdom. I gently ask DUP Members who are unhappy about this coming into play to look at the detail of those inquiry submissions to understand the reality of what was happening on the ground for too many women.
In the absence of an independent regulator of health in Northern Ireland, can the Minister confirm again—I asked him this question on the Floor of the House—who will monitor the implementation of these new regulations which have to include the expansion of training and medical facilities, because there is no independent regulator to do that? What obligations are there on the Northern Ireland Government to ensure that any future re-evaluation of this policy has to be human rights compliant and has to be compliant with the international obligations of the United Kingdom of which they are part?
The Select Committee recommendations included the very useful recommendation that the General Medical Council should run a campaign to raise awareness about how to complain about a doctor if they fall short on standards expected under the law, particularly with regard to abortion. That would help to increase public confidence and, perhaps, confidence among doctors about what is lawful and what is not lawful, because in our conversations with doctors only a year ago, it was clear there was a huge amount of confusion.
Sir John Hayes
This is a contentious issue. Abortion debates always arouse, stimulate, catalyse strong opinions. But this, in essence, is not about abortion. These regulations and this debate are about devolution. They are about the willingness of this House to respect the settlement that it made with the people of Northern Ireland. It is my contention that these regulations—these proposals—are unconstitutional, unwanted and unwise. The risk that we run by voting for them is of opening a Pandora’s box in respect of our constitutional settlement with Ulster. If we take this out of the box, why not something else? What is to be next? All at a time when that settlement is fragile, this tests it to a point where I would not be sure that it will not break.
As a Unionist, I have protecting the strength of the United Kingdom at the heart of my political credo, and I know the same is true for colleagues across this Committee and, indeed, the whole House. With that in mind, I urge members of the Committee and the House to reflect on the importance of devolution in the context of Northern Ireland. The UK Government have an ethical duty to honour their promise to the people of Ulster, as well as a constitutional duty to preserve our Union.
It was that sentiment that I imagine the hon. Member for Walthamstow had in mind when she initiated the measures to which these regulations give flight. She said:
“I understand that, if it was not for the fact that we do not have an Assembly, this would absolutely not be the right way forward, but we do not have an Assembly and we will not have one any time soon.”—[Official Report, 9 July 2019; Vol. 663, c. 183.]
Of course, the truth is that we do now have an Assembly, and that Assembly has the understandable expectation that it should decide on matters on which we ask it to do so. The extraordinary behaviour of the Government—I say that with all respect to the Minister, who, as I said at the outset, has behaved with great courtesy and decency in the discussions that we have had with them on this subject—given that there has been an election since the original decision was taken to impose their views and these regulations on Northern Ireland, flies in the face of the devolution settlement.
Huw Merriman (Bexhill and Battle) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend consider the right that I have to effect legislation as an hon. Member? I did so last year, and I expect that legislation to come into force. Will he also consider the point that treaty obligations are a requirement for this institution to take into account and not for the Assembly in Northern Ireland?
Sir John Hayes
To be clear, when that decision was taken, Stormont was not sitting and there was no prospect of its doing so. We were not to know then—I am sure that my hon. Friend voted in good faith—that Stormont would reassemble and thereby be able to come to a view about these matters. This is a devolved matter, after all. Were this a matter that would normally be decided by this Parliament, I would not be able to make the point that we are imposing our view in an area of policy that we chose to devolve to the Assembly.
It would be no different if we were doing this in Scotland or Wales. It not only risks the settlement in Northern Ireland, but undermines the very principle of devolution. I was here when we first debated that, and I think I voted against it when the Labour Government introduced it, as most of my party did. I have no doubt that my hon. Friend would have done so too, had he been here. However, the settlement that we came to went through, and that is where we are.
Huw Merriman
My right hon. Friend is very generous in giving way. The point that I would make, though, is that treaty obligations, which are what the Supreme Court said Parliament was out of step with, are a duty and requirement of this place, and not a devolved matter.
Sir John Hayes
I am not sure that that is the view that the Northern Ireland Attorney General took. I refer my hon. Friend to his advice, of which I have a copy if he wants to read it in detail; I cited it earlier. I am also not sure, although he would have to ask this question of course, that it would necessarily be the view that our Attorney General would take. However, that is not for me to judge or gauge, and since I could not encourage the Minister to give any greater clarity about the Attorney General’s advice, perhaps I will leave it there.
Sir John Hayes
I wish to make some progress, and then I will happily give way again. The key thing is that the will of the people of Northern Ireland is clearly quite different from the view of the last Parliament, when the essence of the changes that the regulations make legal was considered. For any Parliament to fly in the face of the will of the people is, as I have described it, not only unconstitutional but unwise.
It is quite clear that the regulations are unwanted in Northern Ireland. The Minister referred to the consultation, to which 79% of respondents stated their opposition to the furthering of abortion provision in Northern Ireland.
Sir John Hayes
I do not want to give way too often, because I know that others want to contribute, but I will happily give way to my hon. Friend.
Richard Graham
On that specific point, what percentage of the population responded to the consultation?
Sir John Hayes
That is a question for the Minister, not me, because he will have those figures to hand, but he was the one who made great play of the consultation, not I. He cited the consultation in his opening remarks. Indeed, he celebrated the fact that the Government had consulted widely. I was simply clarifying that in that wide consultation the overwhelming majority of people who responded were not in favour of what we are being asked to support today.
There have been other tests of opinion and other polls. The University of Liverpool released a poll showing that only 5% of Northern Irish voters wanted abortion to be provided up to 24 weeks, which is what the regulations do. The strength of feeling on the issue transcends the usual divides in Northern Ireland. According to polling, 58% of Sinn Féin voters and 54% of Democratic Unionist party voters believe that abortion should be allowed only if the mother’s life is at risk.
I could go on about polling, but I will simply make this point: it would be easy to assume that women took a different view from men, or that the young took a different view from those who have lived longer. In truth, women are less supportive of the regulations than men, and the young are less supportive than their parents and grandparents. In Northern Ireland, the regulations are certainly unwanted. That was illustrated last week, as has been said, when the Northern Ireland Assembly voted to oppose the regulations, passing a motion that states:
“That this Assembly welcomes the important intervention of disability campaigner Heidi Crowter and rejects the imposition of abortion legislation which extends to all non-fatal disabilities, including Down’s syndrome.”
The regulations are unwise. Seventy-nine of the 90 MLAs in the Northern Ireland Assembly voted against abortion on the grounds of non-fatal abnormalities. Despite that, the regulations permit abortion up to birth on the grounds that the unborn child has been diagnosed with Down’s syndrome, a cleft lip or palate, or a club foot. If we vote the regulations through, what does that say to the people in Northern Ireland about how we view their opinion? Even more importantly, what does it say to those disabled people in that part of our kingdom, indeed in the whole of our kingdom, about how we regard them? I say it would broadcast loudly and clearly that we do not regard them very highly at all.
Furthermore, the regulations go much further than the requirements set out in the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 and further than the provisions that apply in England and Wales. Specifically, they allow for abortion on demand without certification through to 12 weeks, which will allow sex-selective abortion to be available during that period. It is the first time that no ground for abortion has been allowed up to 12 weeks. Some will say, “Well, that won’t happen. That’s alarmist. Why on earth would people abort a child on the basis of its gender?” I do not share that uncynical view, because we know there are cases where people have done so, and there are places in the world where that is common. We do not want it happening here, and anything that risks it should, frankly, send a shiver down the spine of any member of the Committee.
Indeed, the Government have curiously—I would go so far as to say remarkably—chosen to impose on Northern Ireland a more permissive regime than the one that applies in England and Wales. I do not have time, and you would not permit me, Sir David, to go through all the areas in which the regulations are more liberal than the regime that applies to the rest of the kingdom. That raises the issue of consistency, certainty and clarity—all used as arguments in favour of the regulations by my right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke, who has now left. How bizarre—[Interruption.] My right hon. Friend is back; her ears must have been burning. If it is clarity, certainty and consistency that we want, why on earth would we want to impose a different regime in Northern Ireland from that which prevails elsewhere?
Yet there is a substantially different regulatory approach to abortions proposed for Northern Ireland from that in England and Wales. The Northern Ireland regime will allow all GP surgeries to be approved locations to do abortions, allowing this serious procedure to take place in a dramatically increased number of locations compared with England and Wales.
Carla Lockhart
Does the right hon. Gentleman also agree that the legislation has no reference to inspections of places where abortions can take place, which leaves difficulty in managing where they can and will take place?
Sir John Hayes
That is true, too. It is also true that whereas an abortion can be carried out in England and Wales only by a doctor, the regulations extend that. The issue of home abortions, with the woman taking a pill—there has been quite a lot of publicity in the national press in the last few weeks about how that can go wrong—is also catalysed by the proposed changes.
Dame Diana Johnson
I am concerned about what the right hon. Gentleman just said. The past president of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, Professor Lesley Regan, has made it clear that the safety of women taking tablets at home is not to be disputed. He needs to consider what he said about things in the press, because that is not backed up by scientific or professional evidence.
Sir John Hayes
Up until now, we have taken the view as a Parliament that, because abortion is a serious matter, there should be a structure and framework governing where it takes place that maximises the prospect of the safety that the hon. Lady and I want to guarantee. That is why we put it into the hands of medical professionals, and put limits on the places where it can happen. That is why we have a legal framework, and prohibit—indeed, penalise—abortions that take place outside it. My anxiety, like hers, is about guaranteeing safety and security, and I believe that that is done by the existing provisions. We therefore do not need to change them.
I want to reflect on a point that I have touched on briefly already about non-fatal disabilities. I find it deplorable that, in contradiction of all the notions of equality that we rightly promote in the 21st century, a child diagnosed with Down’s syndrome, a cleft lip, a cleft palate or a club foot can continue to be aborted. As the hon. Member for Upper Bann said, that clearly discriminates against disabled people. The last time that abortion regulations in England and Wales were examined in real depth was 1990, before the passing of the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 and the Equality Act 2010. That is why, as I said earlier, I am pleased that a Bill is being introduced that will address that inequality. These regulations permit abortion up to birth on the grounds that the unborn child has been diagnosed with Down’s syndrome, a cleft lip, a cleft palate or a club foot in Northern Ireland. Where a child is capable of being born alive in Northern Ireland, this law will permit different treatment of those with disabilities and those without disabilities. That lawful discrimination will continue until the child is born. If this House were to endorse these regulations, we would be endorsing discrimination on the basis of disability. We would be endorsing applying the Equality Act to some and not all. We would effectively be saying that some lives matter less.
In conclusion, I urge Members to reject these regulations for two main reasons: devolution and equality. They are unconstitutional, and may actually be illegal—I have not got time to pursue that at great length, but that is certainly the view of the Attorney General for Northern Ireland; the question of whether they are legal was asked earlier; he certainly thinks that they are not.
Sir John Hayes
I will not, because I am about to reach my exciting peroration, but I will happily send the hon. Gentleman the advice if he has not seen it already.
On the grounds of devolution and promoting and protecting the interests of people with disabilities, we should reject these regulations. They are unwise, unconstitutional and unwanted. If that has not persuaded members of this Committee, let me finish not with my words but those of Heidi Crowter, a 24-year-old woman with Down’s syndrome who, when reflecting on the regulations that I imagine some people on this Committee plan to vote for, said:
“it makes me feel like I shouldn’t exist”.
Stella Creasy
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David, as we debate these important regulations. This is an opportunity for this House to come together an uphold the human rights of all UK citizens. I start my contribution by paying tribute to the work that many have done to get us to this point. I thank the Minister, who has been patient and diligent and listened to all sides of the debate on this matter before arriving at these regulations. I also thank the shadow Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol South, who has been an incredibly diligent and thoughtful advocate for the importance of getting these regulations right. I thank my colleague and hon. Friend, the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North, who has been a stalwart campaigner for the right of a woman to have the equal right of a man to choose what happens to her body—unfortunately, this is still a contested issue in 2020. I thank the former Chair of the Women and Equalities Committee, the right hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller), who gave a brilliant speech earlier today about the things she heard and the work that Committee did.
Above all, I thank the many voices from Northern Ireland who have been able to be heard over the past couple of years, in this place and outside, as a result of us as a Parliament taking on something that, for years, people have said was too difficult to deal with. This has been a difficult debate, and I recognise there are strongly held opinions on all sides of the House about this matter, but because we put it in the “too difficult” box, we have denied the voices of thousands of women in Northern Ireland who have been speaking about their human rights. That has changed over the past couple of years, and I pay tribute in particular to the Alliance for Choice, the London Irish Abortion Rights Campaign, Amnesty International and Together for Yes, as well as women such as Sarah Jane Ewart, who have been incredibly powerful and brave in telling their story about the consequences of this legislation.
These regulations are needed because almost a year ago, this House recognised that it was important to repeal sections 58 and 59 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861, which put having an abortion in the same category as child-stealing and using gunpowder to blow this place up. However, repealing those sections was only 50% of treating every single woman in the UK as an equal citizen. We need these regulations to clarify what the provision of abortion in Northern Ireland is. I stand with the hon. Member for North Down, who is very welcome in this place and has clearly stated the simple truth that not regulating for abortion—banning abortion—does not stop it happening, but means that it happens in an unsafe manner. It puts lives at risk.
We know that for generations, Northern Ireland has been exporting its need for abortion to the rest of the United Kingdom. We know women who have had to make that horrific journey under horrific circumstances: not just Sarah Jane Ewart, but thousands of women who have had to travel, if they can at all, because they do not want to continue an unwanted pregnancy. At the heart of this regulation is a very simple question: do we have the right to force a woman to continue an unwanted pregnancy? If we say yes, then of course, we can stand up to those human rights organisations that have told us countless times over the years that we are torturing our own citizens—that is how they have described deciding for somebody else what happens to their body, in this most graphic way. That is why it is right that this place acted, and it is why I must respectfully disagree with the right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings when he says that this is somehow illegal.
These regulations stem from that moment last year when we recognised our human rights obligations as a United Kingdom, and expressly said that devolution does not deny those rights to some women in the United Kingdom. Indeed, in that moment we were sticking to article 27 of the Vienna convention, which states that a party to a treaty
“may not invoke the provisions of its internal law as justification for its failure to perform a treaty”
and paragraph 39 of CEDAW’s general recommendation on the core obligations of states, which says that states cannot use their delegated powers to absolve themselves of responsibility to all women. It is clear that for too long, this place has denied its responsibility to the women of Northern Ireland, and today’s regulations put that right. They do so in a sensitive and CEDAW-compliant manner, so that we treat the women of Northern Ireland with the respect we would wish for all women.
We are required to follow the ECHR, and it is right that this place deals with this issue, because it is our law—the Offences Against the Person Act 1861—that created these challenges in the first place. Whatever legislation the Northern Ireland Assembly wishes to bring forward on this matter, which it can do, it could not take action without dealing with that Act, so it is right that this place seeks to act—
Stella Creasy
I will, but I want to make reasonable progress, to allow the Minister time to answer some of the questions. I give way happily.
Sir John Hayes
I want to be clear about this. When the hon. Lady spoke on this subject in the House before the last election, she said clearly that the reason she was advocating what she was, was the absence of Stormont; were Stormont sitting, she would not do so. Now, she is making a completely contradictory argument, that Stormont should never have had the powers at all. If she thought that then, why did she not say so?
Stella Creasy
I am grateful that the right hon. Gentleman appears to have listened to what I said in the House. If we are honest, in debates, it sometimes feels that that is not always the case for those on opposing sides. If he listened to what I said then—and what I say now—it was that devolution did not absolve us of our responsibility. Indeed, the requirements of the European Court of Human Rights cross-cut to Northern Ireland as part of the Good Friday agreement.
The right hon. Gentleman says that we have always devolved this but, I genuinely suggest to him, the absence of legislation on Northern Ireland was in 1967. That was before the 1998 Good Friday agreement, which enshrined the responsibility of this place to uphold the human rights of the people in Northern Ireland, leading to the creation of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, which sought to address this issue but, as we discussed, was not able to do so because of a technicality. Does he want to suggest that there is a clear demarcation? Furthermore, I have not yet heard him advocate that other forms of human rights such as on torture should also be delegated to Northern Ireland. We do not do that; we recognise that some rights are universal and that, collectively, we have a responsibility to uphold them.
My point last year was that for too long, because of the absence of the Assembly, this issue had not been addressed. I ask those who today say that we should not agree to the regulations, if not these regulations, where is the alternative? Now that the Assembly is up and running, it can come up with alternative proposals. As yet, it has not.
The risk is twofold: first, the continuation of the abuse of the human rights of the women of Northern Ireland, whereby they are forced to continue an unwanted pregnancy because there is no safe, legal and local service for them; and, secondly, in the absence of regulation, now that we have repealed sections 58 and 59—I agree with Government Members who made this point—there is a gap, a lacuna, in what services are provided that needs to be addressed.
If the right hon. Gentleman wishes to advocate devolution, he should advocate what CEDAW-compliant regulations the Northern Ireland Assembly should be coming up with, so that we may navigate this terrain of being part of the United Kingdom, of upholding our human rights obligations and of recognising the role of local institutions in identifying how those regulations are provided. He should not be saying simply, “Put it back in the ‘Too Difficult’ box—let’s not go there.”
Having said all that, it is important for us to look at the legislation, at the regulations before us, and I am sure that the Chair wishes me to do so. The regulations implement what polls in Northern Ireland have been telling us for some time: the vast majority of people do not consider this to be a criminal matter but a medical one, requiring medical regulation, which is what the regulations do. That is the view of both the MLAs and the broader public. However, there is common ground to be found: we need to find a medical way of moving forward.
Ian Paisley
My hon. Friend makes the point exceedingly well, and we should listen to her words. This legislation does not protect the rights of women and girls, or of the unborn. It dismisses their rights—that is the fact.
The Attorney General for Northern Ireland has claimed that the Secretary of State has exceeded his authority. That is why the regulations, if and when they are passed, will unfortunately run into further controversy—no doubt they will be challenged. They will not bring an end to a difficult argument or suddenly solve it. We are in the process of dealing with difficult issues all the time, and the suggestion that the regulations end a difficult problem is just complete and total nonsense. If it was so easy, most hon. Members would welcome that. However, in claiming that the Secretary of State has exceeded his authority, the Attorney General for Northern Ireland made the following comments:
“It is doubtful that the legislation gives adequate ECHR protections to the rights of those opposed to these regulations, whether on conscience or philosophical grounds.”
He went on to say:
“It is inappropriate for the provision. In light of the political context that now exists in Northern Ireland, these provisions are actually lawful.”
Let me just complete the quotation. He goes on to say:
“It is disproportionate, contrary to article 9 of ECHR as well as article 8, to require those who undertake ancillary, administrative or managerial tasks to act contrary to their conscience.”
Sir John Hayes
My hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle suggested that the regulations might be made lawful by reference to a treaty. Will the hon. Gentleman let the Committee know, perhaps by way of a confirmation, that the regulations cite no treaty and relate to no treaty?
Ian Paisley
It is absolutely clear that we are not breaching any treaty; indeed, the Minister said so himself when I intervened on him earlier. No treaty is being contravened, and we are under no obligation whatever. We are doing something because it is politically expedient to do something. We are genuflecting to a committee that does not have the standing that the Minister and the Government give to it. That is why there will be many people who echo your words, Sir David—I hope I do not quote you incorrectly—by saying, “I’m confused about how we’ve got ourselves into this position.” If that is the case, these little committees all around Europe—
Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill
John Hayes ExcerptsMonday 8th July 2019
(4 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Notices of Amendments as at 5 July 2019 - (8 Jul 2019)
Mr Lewis
I do not dispute the fact that the hon. Gentleman, in every intervention he has made on Northern Ireland over a very long period—it is his home, not mine—has sought to be sensitive. A referendum is not the ideal solution, but to those who believe in gay marriage and believe that the rules on abortion need to be changed and brought into line with those in the rest of the UK, I would say that that will not be achieved by these amendments, given the parliamentary arithmetic. My solution provides an opportunity to achieve a breakthrough that cannot be achieved otherwise, given this perpetual debate and stalemate around the Executive and Assembly and given the parliamentary maths.
Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) (Con)
I do not necessarily agree with the hon. Gentleman’s position, but in his defence a referendum would at least refer the issue back to the people of Northern Ireland. It would be perceived as immensely arrogant were the House to dictate to the people of Northern Ireland on subjects that we have already acknowledged across the House are extremely sensitive.
Mr Lewis
I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman. This should constitutionally be a matter for the people of Northern Ireland. We should not disregard the history of Northern Ireland or the nature of the sensitivities and the fragility that prevail. Too many people refer to Northern Ireland as a post-conflict society. That means ticking boxes saying, “It’s resolved, it’s all sorted, Northern Ireland has moved on.” Anybody who lives in Northern Ireland or cares about it knows that that is not the case. The hon. Member for St Helens North (Conor McGinn) understands that better than anyone. When we consider these issues, we have to take account of those realities.
I understand that my solution will not be supported by many. Campaigners will say, “We believe in universal human rights, and anything other than that is a dilution of our principles.” However, in the current climate, given the parliamentary maths and the stalemate over the Assembly and the Executive, there will no gay marriage or changes in the abortion law in Northern Ireland. That is a fact. We can table as many amendments as we want in this place, but that is the reality, as is the position of the current Government. I therefore suggest that the Government take a brave and courageous step, and, in respect of these sensitive issues, give serious consideration to the option of a referendum. As part of that, they would have to commit themselves to legislation to enact the outcome of the referendum, if it required legislative change.
I will support the Government tonight because I believe this to be the least worst solution, but there needs to be a wake-up call for the leading parties in Northern Ireland. They think that the regrettable failure of leadership can go on for ever because they dominate the vote in their respective communities—that is the political reality of Northern Ireland—but around the world, the certainties of elites and establishments are being shattered. We are seeing Brexit in our own country, and we saw Donald Trump defeat Hillary Clinton. Those are two examples of the crumbling of elites and establishments who thought that they were in the ascendancy.
If the current leaders continue to fail in their duty to run Northern Ireland, they may wake up one morning to find that the silent majority of Unionists and nationalists has been raised in support of credible alternatives. That may be hard to believe, but never say never in the context of the current turbulence around the world. Northern Ireland should and can have a great future, but its people are being let down by its leaders. Victims of violence and institutional abuse are being given neither justice nor closure, and too many young people are being left behind because austerity means that too many of the promises of the peace process have not been delivered.
Let me point out to the Secretary of State that as a consequence of austerity, the investment that Northern Ireland should have had following the peace process has not been delivered to the level at which it should have been delivered, despite some of the deals that have been done with, specifically, the Democratic Unionist party. Overall, the people running Northern Ireland have not received the peace dividend that they were promised because of austerity, and that needs to be taken into account in future budgetary decisions about Northern Ireland.
It is sad that politics is sharpening the sectarian divide when it should be healing and weakening the divides of the past. The silent majority in Northern Ireland deserve better. It is time that politicians on all sides did their duty, and put the people of Northern Ireland first.
Stella Creasy
I recognise that the hon. Gentleman and I are on different sides of this, but if he will forgive me, I will come to the international obligations that we as a country have signed up to that I believe are relevant in considering this Bill. This Bill allows for action in the absence of an Assembly, but it does not absolve us of our responsibility to comply with international obligations.
Stella Creasy
If the right hon. Gentleman will allow me, I will make a little progress and then happily take an intervention from him.
For me, there is a simple point. This weekend, many of us will have proudly celebrated Pride. We will have seen the rainbow flag and talked about the importance of standing up for the rights of gays, lesbians and transgender people across the world. We have seen persecution in Chechnya and in Europe under the Orbán legislation, and we have stood up and said that we as a nation want to be a beacon. We have even said that we should kick countries out of the Commonwealth that do not uphold gay rights. There was an outcry in this country when people saw legislation introduced in Alabama under which doctors are prosecuted for performing abortions, while Georgia is saying that no woman can have an abortion later than six weeks, by which time most women do not even realise that they might be pregnant.
There is a simple rule for those of us who have been consistent—as I hope that the hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) would recognise that many of us have been—whether we have fought the global gag rule, or stood up for the importance of international development investment in maternity healthcare. We cannot argue that we are beacons of human rights around the world if we do not get our own house in order. We are told consistently by the international agencies that we have signed up to that we have a problem in Northern Ireland—in particular, that we are treating women there as second-class citizens. This Bill speaks to what we do in the absence of an Assembly that is able to fulfil those international obligations. If those obligations do not mean anything, what does this place do, when sometimes it has to speak for those whose voices cannot be heard?
I was at the Council of Europe two weeks ago, when the Government were boasting about being about to ratify the Istanbul convention on violence against women, but the legislation that the Government have introduced to try to do that will not even cover Northern Ireland. The Bill before us will not deal with the gap, so women in Northern Ireland will not have protection from stalking. They do not have coercive control legislation, and will not get the support of the domestic violence commissioners, yet the Istanbul convention is a piece of international legislation that we have signed up to and committed to. We have said that it speaks to our support for human rights.
On abortion in Northern Ireland, in the years since we had an Assembly, we have been directly criticised by the United Nations. The United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women has explicitly said that the UK cannot invoke its internal arrangements to justify its failure to revise the Northern Ireland laws that violate the convention by denying women in Northern Ireland the same rights as women in my constituency of Walthamstow or the Minister’s constituency: the right to have a safe, legal and local abortion.
Sir John Hayes
Now that the hon. Lady has made progress, let me deal with the two points that she has raised that I want to contradict. First, as the hon. Member for South Antrim (Paul Girvan) said, it is highly debatable whether abortion falls into the category of rights that she has described. Indeed, people such as Professor Mark Hill, QC, contradict that view. Secondly, in any case, as she will know, the legislation that underpinned devolution in 1998 largely devolves matters of international obligation to the Northern Ireland people, so if even she thinks this is a right, it is a right that should be decided upon by the people to whom we have devolved power, else devolution means nothing.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
I promise to be brief, as a number of Members have done, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I hope we can get some points across. I am very disappointed that the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy), for whom I have a great deal of respect, even though we disagree passionately on this issue, did not want to give way and engage in a debate on some issues, because there are important facts that need to be put on the record. First, it is important to say that no woman has gone to jail in Northern Ireland on the issue that the hon. Lady so passionately raised—it has not happened. It does not happen. Lots of things are on the statute but do not happen. Women are not regularly taken off to jail and imprisoned on these issues in Northern Ireland. It might happen in other parts of the world but it has not happened in Northern Ireland.
The last time the Assembly debated the important and sensitive matter of abortion and abortion rights was in 2016, when 59 of the Members present—an overwhelming majority—did not want to change the legislation in the way that the hon. Lady has argued for and 40 Members did. A considerable difference in opinion existed but a clear majority were against the points that the hon. Lady passionately made and is rightly entitled to hold. Those points are not, however, supported across the community in Northern Ireland.
The one point I did raise with the hon. Lady, directly, in an intervention, was: is the right to terminate an unborn life a European convention right? Terminating the life of an unborn child is not a right, according to the European convention on human rights. People can wave other conventions, decrees and subsections of meetings that have occurred around the world involving other conventions and other groups, but the totem—the one we are all signed up to and the one that will stay in place after we leave the EU—the European convention on human rights, does not uphold this “right” or see the termination of the unborn life as a right.
Sir John Hayes
The hon. Gentleman will know that our Supreme Court has determined that there is no general right to abortion, and in international law states are given considerable leeway about how they treat such matters. I could not reconcile any of that with a speech from the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy). I appreciate her passion, but passion is no substitute for sense.
Ian Paisley
The other point I wish to make is about what my constituents in Northern Ireland want. What do the people of Northern Ireland want? It is right and proper to say that the Labour party fought valiantly up to 2003 to get in place an agreement to ensure that the Northern Ireland Assembly would take crucial, key and tough decisions. I must say, there were times when we disagreed with how the Labour party went about it, but ultimately Labour signed off on agreements that allowed for that to happen. I am disappointed that those on the Labour Front Bench have now decided that on certain issues they can have a pick-and-mix approach to what the Assembly should or should not do.
Labour party Front Benchers should be steadfast, at one with and—if it is not too pointed to say this week, as we go into the marching season—in step with the Conservative party and the Government of the day when it comes to making sure that we do not break the established convention, which is that on these issues there is agreement that the Assembly in Northern Ireland should take decisions. The Labour party should not encourage otherwise or diverge from that by saying, “Well, on certain things that are contentious, or that we really like, or on which we are under pressure from our Back Benchers, we will support the notion that Parliament should legislate separately.”
There is a long list of priorities—it has been read out by other Members—many of which would be higher up list for the ordinary folk of Northern Ireland than some of the matters that people will raise tonight and tomorrow. We have to make sure that we have a consistent approach. We could say that we are going to have devolution and put all the energy and passion into that. The hon. Member for Walthamstow should put the same passion she has shown on this issue into encouraging the parties in Northern Ireland to get around the table, to get on with making that agreement and to bring governance back to the Assembly in Northern Ireland, because were that to happen, perhaps some of the pithy matters that have been put on the agenda in this House would be properly discussed and debated, and laws would be either upheld or altered and changed as the case may be—as the Assembly would want.
Let me go back to the question of what my constituents want. In a recent ComRes survey, 64% of the general population of Northern Ireland agreed that changing the law on abortion in Northern Ireland is an issue that should be reserved to the Assembly in Northern Ireland. That 64% is an overwhelming number of people who want the Assembly to take decisions on that matter. That is why I say again that the imperative should be that we encourage the parties, including my own party, to get on with resolving the outstanding issues.
Sixty-six per cent. of women in Northern Ireland, irrespective of social, cultural or political background, want the Assembly to make laws on these issues. They do not want this place to make those laws. More importantly, as other Members have remarked, they do not want this place to rush into making legislative decisions on Northern Ireland on a hop, skip and a prayer approach, which results in really bad law. They want really good decisions to be made and good law to be put in place. They do not want decisions that are rushed and that leave us with bad law, especially on the sensitive issue of the termination of human life.
Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Bill
John Hayes ExcerptsWednesday 24th October 2018
(5 years, 6 months ago)
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Stella Creasy
I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention. Sadly, on both issues opinion polls show us that the politicians in Northern Ireland are behind the public consistently; indeed, they are behind their own supporters when it comes to both issues. [Interruption.] The right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes) is chuntering from a sedentary position; I understand that he has philosophical objections on some of the issues in this debate, but I hope he will have respect for the people of Northern Ireland and therefore agree that the case should be heard as to why the Secretary of State should be asked to protect their human rights and to be held to account for what is happening.
Mr Hayes
That means I will not have to chunter from a sedentary position, so I am grateful to the hon. Lady. Just to be clear about public opinion in Northern Ireland, the latest polling, which was authoritative—it was not a rogue poll—shows that the overwhelming majority of Northern Irish women favour the status quo, and interestingly that was broken down by age and younger Northern Irish women are no more in favour of changing to the position the hon. Lady wants than older ladies.
Stella Creasy
I am fascinated by the poll the right hon. Gentleman cites. Let me give him the direct data from the Amnesty International poll taken this year, which says that 65% of people in Northern Ireland think abortion should be decriminalised and 66% think Westminster should act in the absence of the Assembly. Let me also cite for him the Sky News poll of 2018 that shows that 76% of people in Northern Ireland support equal marriage. I say to him gently again that I understand that he has philosophical objections on some of these issues, whether from religious or moral conscience, and I respect that, but it is not enough to say this is about devolution on that basis. He needs to be honest with this House that his objection is about conscience, because there is not a devolution objection to this new clause. The new clause respects devolution, but it also asks us to respect human rights.
Ten years ago we had the opportunity to change things for women in Northern Ireland and that did not happen, and as a result we know from studies that 10,000 women have either had to travel to England to have an abortion or have taken pills bought online. If we reject this new clause, are we really trying to say that 10 MPs matter more than those 10,000 women whose lives have in the last 10 years been affected by our failure to act?
Offences Against the Person Act 1861
John Hayes Excerpts(5 years, 10 months ago)
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Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)
I, too, thank the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) and everyone who supported her in securing this debate. It is of vital importance, not in a party political sense—or any political sense—but in a human rights sense. Two issues are involved here. The first is that it is simply appalling in 2018 that abortion is still treated as a criminal issue, rather than a medical one. More than 100 years—only just more—after women were given the vote, we are here debating an Act from 1861 when not only was it all men in the Chamber who decided, but it was all men who voted for all the men in the Chamber to decide. The other issue is that even now women in Northern Ireland are the only women in the UK who are denied a fundamental human right: the right to choose—the right to control their own bodies.
I have heard the debate about devolution. Even as someone who has campaigned consistently for devolution and whose party has campaigned tirelessly for it, I cannot find myself supporting that argument. I listened to what the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Deidre Brock) had to say, but then I listened to what the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Jess Phillips) said and thought, “If I were one of those women sitting at home listening to us today, what would matter to me more: devolution and a political principle; or my human rights?” The answer would be my human rights and my right to choose. It would be my daughter’s human rights, my niece’s human rights and the human rights of every woman I know above a political principle.
If that is not enough, perhaps we should look at what the legislation says, because human rights are not devolved. There is a precedent from 2007. When the DUP blocked the EU gender directive, Westminster stepped in and intervened. Legislation also gives the UK Parliament responsibility for meeting international obligations such as United Nations treaties ratified by the UK. UN bodies have found that Northern Ireland abortion law is incompatible with human rights treaties ratified by this Parliament. That is also the view of Amnesty International, which has said:
“Northern Ireland laws have been repeatedly found by UN treaty monitoring bodies to be in significant violation of the various human rights treaties the UK is state party to.”
We are not trying to usurp the rights of the Stormont Parliament; it is not sitting at the moment—
Christine Jardine
I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not mind, but because of the time limitations, I am not going to give way.
We are not trying to usurp the rights of that Parliament; we are simply trying to establish the rights of women throughout the UK, to put those rights on an equal footing, and to give every woman the choice. If we repealed sections 58 and 59, the Parliament in Northern Ireland would, as we have heard, be able to decide for itself how to proceed. I give my complete support to today’s debate, not just for myself, but for those women who have a right—a human right—and for our children throughout the UK. I want them all to be on an equal footing.
Sir Peter Bottomley
There is no need to provide the answer now, but, at some stage, it would be interesting to know whether there is a debate and a variety of views in the DUP. That is important in Northern Ireland.
The second question is whether we can take out the idea that this is a rarity. I do not normally talk about personal circumstances, but I have been involved in about 10 conceptions, three of which brought children who were born alive. The other seven were aborted naturally—they were miscarriages. I have had people living in my house desperate to have children, who have gone through late miscarriages—incidentally, those who think that the heartbeat starts at three weeks are out by about 100%, because it is about six to eight weeks, but that is an unimportant detail. The question is clearly this: if there is going to be a deliberate termination, can it be as soon as possible rather than as late as it can be under the current procedures? That is one reason why we need to examine the need to have two doctors to approve a formal medical termination or whether one is sufficient, and what the protocols should be.
We need to approach this matter in this way: the world is not as we would like it to be. It is clearly wrong that, in this country, there are about 190,000 abortions a year. If we allow some people to come in from Spain, Ireland or Northern Ireland for abortions, that leaves about a 40% chance that someone in this country will be involved in a conception that is ended by a deliberate termination at some stage. It is common, and it is not something for the criminal law. It is about understanding how conception takes place, whether people want an extra child when they already have five children, whether they have conceived with someone to whom they have to say, “I’m sorry, what did you say your name was?”, or whether they say, “We have lived together for two years and we hadn’t planned this.” Those are the sorts of circumstances that require openness and open discussion.
Mr John Hayes
Any legal circumstances where abortion was not in some way limited or restricted would certainly be a rarity. We have heard in this debate that abortions cannot take place from a much lower age in most countries of the world. Would my hon. Friend support that kind of reform?
Sir Peter Bottomley
My right hon. Friend will have heard me say that if a deliberate abortion is going to take place, the sooner it takes place the better. It is better that people do not face those circumstances, but when they do, the earlier the better. That is clearly right. The civil law will need to replace the criminal law.
Members who have contributed, on both sides of the House, have earned the respect of those outside. If those who oppose change can respect those who want it, we can have a better debate.