Abortion (Northern Ireland) (No. 2) Regulations 2020

Carla Lockhart Excerpts

Monday 8th June 2020 General Committees

[Mr Walker]

The hon. Gentleman is perhaps referring to litigation that is under way, which I of course cannot comment on. What I can say is that we gave very careful consideration, both in the consultation itself and in the follow-up to it, to all aspects of this legislation. We decided to follow the approach of GB law by not specifying particular conditions, but being clear that the approach to severe foetal impairment has to be for the individual woman, in consultation with medical professionals. We think that is the right approach; it is the approach established elsewhere in the UK, and indeed in many other jurisdictions.

The CEDAW report does not recommend or mandate specifics of how access should be provided. In particular, it is silent on issues such as gestational time limits for legal abortion, which it leaves open to the state to determine. The key requirement is to ensure access to services for women and girls in the circumstances I have set out, and abortions should be delivered as part of sexual and reproductive health services.

We recognise that this is a sensitive and personal issue for many people. We have heard many differing views about abortion in this House and the other place over the past 12 months, including in the debates on the reports under the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019. I extend my thanks to all hon. Members who have engaged with me over recent months in discussions about these regulations, and have contributed views and shared insights from the wider engagement that they have been having with a range of constituents and other stakeholders.

[Carla Lockhart (Upper Bann) (DUP)]

The Minister refers to the fact that a number of people have contributed to this debate, but does he not accept that the Northern Ireland Assembly—the place where this should be debated and decided upon—was unable to contribute to the debate and articulate its view? It voted on Thursday. Why has this Committee not taken cognisance of that vote?

[Mr Walker]

I respect the hon. Lady and the position from which she is arguing, but the Northern Ireland Assembly has had many opportunities to take forward these issues and provide a framework that would address the requirements of CEDAW, and it has not taken them. As she refers to the debate, I reiterate what I said in response to the urgent question last week: the Northern Ireland Assembly chose to vote on one aspect of these regulations and said that it did not like it. It did not debate the full details of the regulations themselves, and it did not provide a way forward that is compliant with CEDAW. I am very happy for it to debate these issues and take them forward, but it must do so in a way that is CEDAW compliant. It has every right to do that and reform these regulations, should it choose to do so in a way that is CEDAW compliant.

I appreciate that this is an issue on which views are deeply held, and I respect the fact that people coming at it from either side of the argument are doing so with the best interests of others in mind. I have no doubt that the arguments that we will hear today, across the whole spectrum of opinion on the subject, come from the heart and will be well informed. The starting point for the framework was that, as a result of the repeal of sections 58 and 59 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861, from 22 October 2019 carrying out an abortion is no longer a criminal offence, except for late-term abortion, to which the offence of destroying a child capable of being born alive would still apply.

In relation to complying with the statutory duty on the Government, our overarching policy aims were to ensure that the framework protects and promotes the health and safety of women and girls, provides clarity and certainty for the medical profession, and is responsive and sensitive to the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly being restored from January, where our legal obligation remained to act on this issue.

Towards the end of last year, we publicly consulted on the proposals for the new legislative framework. The consultation gave people and organisations in Northern Ireland an opportunity to provide input and views on how we could best deliver an abortion framework consistent with our statutory duty. We were clear in that consultation that this is not about whether the Government should deliver on our statutory duty, but rather about how we can most effectively deliver a framework as required.

The Government have engaged with a range of stakeholders in Northern Ireland during this process and in recent months, including political parties, medical professionals, women’s groups, abortion service providers, trade unions, civil society organisations, individuals with lived experience and church groups. We listened to feedback expressed in the consultation process and through various engagements, and we have responded accordingly. We have sought to balance the range of views against our statutory duty, and to take pragmatic decisions informed by evidence.

Many stakeholders have welcomed the regulations, including the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission. It is our firm view that the regulations provide a new legislative framework that is operationally sound, works best for Northern Ireland and delivers on the Government’s statutory duty.

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[Mr Walker]

As I said, we set out in our response to the consultation the detail of how each of the decisions in this process was reached. We recognise that the situation ante this regulation in Northern Ireland was that the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 had already removed the criminal sanctions, so we were under an obligation to create a framework, then reimpose criminal sanctions outside of that framework. That is the way in which we have addressed this.

We are clear that this is a situation in which CEDAW requires us to ensure that women and girls cannot be prosecuted for these regulations, and the regulations should not have—as, unfortunately, it was clear from some of the consultation responses, the criminal law previously did have in Northern Ireland—a chilling effect on availability, nor erect any barriers to access.

[Carla Lockhart]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Walker]

I will make a little bit of progress and allow the hon. Lady to come in before the end. Access to abortion services in Northern Ireland is now a matter for the Northern Ireland Department of Health, as well as the Health and Social Care Board and the Health and Social Care Trust, to take forward, as a new health service.

We continue to have full respect for the devolution settlement, recognising that health is a devolved matter, and to that extent have ensured that, where possible and practical, the regulations can be developed over time, in a way that works best for Northern Ireland by Northern Ireland. For example, the approval power for the Northern Ireland Department of Health to approve new locations in which services can be provided will allow it to respond to service needs and development over time, as the services are commissioned and embedded into health and social care settings in Northern Ireland.

Some interim service provision on the ground in Northern Ireland has now commenced, with early medical abortion services being provided as part of the existing sexual and reproductive health services in the Belfast, northern and western trust areas. This is to ensure access on the ground during covid-19, before fuller services have been commissioned by the Health and Social Care Board.

Of course, abortion remains a devolved issue in Northern Ireland going forward. That means that the Assembly is able to legislate further on abortion, subject to the usual Assembly and other procedures, including compliance with the European Convention on Human Rights. The UK Government will continue to ensure that we abide by our domestic and international legal obligations. The Government stand ready to provide whatever support and guidance we can both to the Northern Ireland Minister of Health and the Department of Health, to assist them in progressing work to set up abortion services in line with our new legislative framework.

As set out in our response to the consultation, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has written to the relevant Northern Ireland Ministers to ensure the implementation of all the recommendations under paragraphs 85 and 86 of the CEDAW report, and the Northern Ireland Office will continue to work closely with the Department of Health and other Northern Ireland Departments in continuing to progress this work.

I hope that the Committee will support these regulations. We believe that they will fully deliver on the requirements placed on the Government by section 9 of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 and allow us to move forward in a way that protects the safety of women and girls in Northern Ireland, will remove over time the need for travel for women and girls facing extremely difficult circumstances, and provide certainty and a clear framework for medical professionals. I commend these regulations to the Committee.

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[Mrs Miller]

My hon. Friend is right. The Select Committee report, just a year ago, found that there was a postcode lottery for provision and showed that lack of access to abortion in Northern Ireland drove many women to have to seek abortions in England, without the support of family and friends. There were some traumatic stories that were completely unacceptable.

[Carla Lockhart]

The right hon. Lady makes reference to the people who have spoken out and raised their concerns about their own personal situations. Will she also take note of Heidi Crowter, the Down’s syndrome campaigner, who has spoken out loudly and clearly, and said that this Government make her feel that she should not exist?

[Mrs Miller]

I pay tribute to the hon. Lady. She has spoken extremely eloquently, not just here today but in the Chamber, on that issue. She is right that there is a massive tension when it comes to abortion and what constitutes the grounds for it. She is right to speak out about that. Many people would agree with her that Down’s syndrome is not grounds for abortion, but I am sure, like me, she has met women who have been forced to take a pregnancy to full term, in the certain knowledge that their baby will die either before or shortly after birth. That is not right and cannot be countenanced. In making sure that individuals with Down’s syndrome have a right to life, we do not have to put in the way a prohibition on abortion for those who really require it.

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[Carla Lockhart]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Sir David.

I believe that the crux of this issue is one of respect: respect for devolution; respect for the devolved Assembly; respect for the will of the people of Northern Ireland; and respect for those with disabilities. I respect this place; I respect its role and its authority. As MPs, we should stand up and defend the authority of this place to rule on all aspects over which it has competence.

My colleagues in the NI Assembly ask for the same. Last week, 75 out of 90 Members of the Legislative Assembly indicated that they did not support abortion for non-fatal disabilities, yet this Government proceed. To borrow a phrase, those 75 MLAs want to “take back control” of abortion law. They want to defend the life of the unborn with a disability. Indeed, an open letter that Baroness O’Loan and I launched on Friday, to present to the Government, has more than 12,000 signatures already. That shows the depth of feeling in Northern Ireland.

In the time available, I will focus my remarks on regulation 7; as drafted, it legalises discrimination. While regulation 4 protects viable babies between 24 weeks’ gestation and full term from abortion, regulation 7 provides no such protection to viable babies of exactly the same age who have a non-fatal disability. So, this legislation provides less protection for a viable disabled baby than it provides for a baby who is the same age and not disabled.

The NI Assembly vote was inspired by a remarkable woman, Heidi Crowter, who lives with Down’s syndrome.

She has expressed how the regulations

“tell people like me that we should not exist.”

Last week, I asked the Minister what his message was for Heidi. I hope he will address that in his closing remarks. I also hope that we will take a moment to appreciate the distress that Heidi has expressed, and that of every parent with a disabled child in hon. Members’ constituencies. What message are we sending to those loving parents? The moral argument for rejecting regulation 7 is clear. I have heard no compelling argument otherwise.

I will now consider the legal competence of regulation 7. The UN convention on the rights of persons with disabilities prohibits discrimination on the basis of disability, including the most serious form of disability discrimination that we are concerned with today—foetal disability discrimination. In 2018, Lord Kerr in his Supreme Court judgment said:

“UNCRPD is based on the premise that if abortion is permissible, there should be no discrimination on the basis that the foetus, because of a defect, will result in a child being born with a physical or mental disability.”

The Attorney General of Northern Ireland has pointed out that section 9(9) of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 states that the powers of the Secretary of State to make the regulations are subject to the same constraints that apply to the Northern Ireland Assembly. Section 6(2) of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 says that the Assembly is not competent to make any law that is contrary to EU law. The UNCRPD has been ratified by the EU, so is part of EU law.

Finally, and in some ways most fundamentally, the discriminatory way in which regulation 7 deals with disability suffers from the fatal flaw that it directly contradicts the recommendation of paragraph 85 of the CEDAW report, which section 9 of the 2019 Act requires the Secretary of State to engage with. Paragraph 85 is clear that changes to access to abortion provision in respect to disability must be made “without perpetuating stereotypes”, yet the manner in which the legislation has been framed directly and expressly does what Parliament requires it should not do.

I recognise the importance of women carrying babies with non-fatal disabilities from 24 weeks and the need for them to receive meaningful support, as required by paragraph 85. Specifically, it states that in a case of severe foetal impairment, there should be

“appropriate and ongoing support, social and financial, for women who decide to carry such pregnancies to term.”Nothing is forthcoming in the legislation, however, to help women who find themselves in such circumstances. When challenged on that by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, the Northern Ireland Office said that that has not been specifically excluded from the regulations because

“a woman and her child would be eligible for the normal disability and/or carer’s benefits and no additional legislation is required.”

Again, what does that say or do to help parents who want to choose life? It is totally inadequate and wholly unacceptable.

It is clear that although the Government have used paragraph 85 as their excuse for the manner in which they have drafted regulation 7, they have not had paragraph 85 in mind in the actual drafting of the legislation, but rather the Abortion Act 1967, which Northern Ireland rejected. As a result, we have 100,000 lives alive today, as opposed to the 9 million babies aborted here in this province. Their objective has been to make Northern Ireland abortion law with respect to disability compliant with the 1967 Act, rather than paragraph 85, as Parliament is required to do.

When Parliament voted for paragraph 85, it voted clearly against disability discrimination and demonstrated that it was 2019 and not 1990. What it has been given in the regulations, however, is quite the contrary. I cannot imagine that, having voted against disability discrimination in 2019, Parliament will want to affirm discrimination now.

Heidi Crowter asked me to quote two things to the Committee, which I proudly do for her. The first is:

“I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made”,

which is a Bible verse that she holds dear, as I do. Secondly, a famous singer sings that,

“You’re beautiful just the way you are”.

Regardless of what hon. Members think about any other aspect of the regulations, regulation 7 means that they are not fit for purpose. As drafted, they are an embarrassing liability. For that reason alone, these unamendable regulations must be rejected in their current form. Time should be allowed for the Northern Ireland Assembly to legislate, knowing the will of the people in Northern Ireland.

The Minister referred to the fact that the Northern Ireland Assembly had not adhered to CEDAW. The report for CEDAW was posted in, I think, July 2019. The Northern Ireland Assembly was in suspension at that time, so it would therefore find it difficult to be in compliance with CEDAW. This is just the tip of the iceberg and, due to time constraints, I am unable to touch on the fact that this legislation permits sex selection. It also gives a free-fire zone for abortion for any reason up to 12 weeks. It allows for coercive abortions and goes far beyond the will of the people of Northern Ireland.

On Thursday past, the Minister used language such as “on balance”. There is nothing balanced about what the Government are doing. They are permitting the termination of lives, against the will of the Northern Ireland people. I would say that, on balance, the Government need to quickly recognise the errors of their way. Some 79% of the people of Northern Ireland who responded to the consultation on the regulations said no, they did not want a change in the legislation, and they wanted the Northern Ireland Assembly to act in this regard. The regulations will see the most liberal abortion laws foisted on the people of Northern Ireland. If the Government proceed, a Province that has been life affirming and values life will revert to a society that destroys life and terminates existence.

I ask the Committee to take note of the fact that both lives matter. We hear much about women’s health—as a woman, I agree that we need to adhere to women’s health and ensure that they have everything in place to assist them—but both lives matter; there is also a baby in the conversation. I call on hon. Members to hear the silent scream of the baby being terminated. I thank hon. Members for listening, and I appreciate the opportunity to speak on this issue.

[Stephen Farry]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David. I rise to speak in favour of the regulations and to give an authentic Northern Ireland voice in support of the actions that Parliament has taken. In doing so, I thank all hon. Members who followed the leadership of the hon. Member for Walthamstow in passing the relevant clauses to the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 in July last year, and I thank the Northern Ireland Office for its work in taking forward the regulations over the past year. Today they are part of the law, subject to the further confirmation of Parliament.

I recognise that there are many progressive voices in Northern Ireland who welcome the changes. I pay tribute not just to Sarah Ewart, whom I mentioned previously, but to many other campaigners who have been pushing for reform over the intervening decades, including through organisations such as Amnesty International and Alliance for Choice.

I am a former Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly, and it has always been a source of great frustration that the Assembly has been incapable of passing even the most modest reform to Northern Ireland’s abortion laws. People may reflect on the past with some degree of regret that opportunities were not taken and that there was a resulting need for Parliament to intervene. I was a member of the Assembly when the Act of Parliament was passed, and in no way, shape or form did I feel imposed on or overruled, or feel that my mandate had been unrecognised. Rather, I was pleased that someone was taking action to address the situation in my part of the United Kingdom, and that the rights of women were to be upheld properly. Parliament is for the UK as a whole, and there are responsibilities on the UK Government to ensure that all parts of the country follow and are in compliance with international human rights standards, including article 8 of the European convention on human rights, CEDAW and the recommendations of the committee more recently.

Hon. Members have referred to the fact that the Assembly voted the way it did last week, and I will make some references to that. First, it is important to bear it in mind that this is an issue of rights, and rights are not addressed through majoritarian processes. There are duties on legislators to follow the rule of law and human rights standards, and to ensure that things are in place in that regard. Public opinion in Northern Ireland has changed dramatically in recent years, particularly among young people, and opinion polls have shown that there is majority support for a range of reforms to be taken forward in Northern Ireland, so I do not recognise that Parliament is acting contrary to the wishes of the majority of the people of Northern Ireland. In any event, it still has an overarching duty to ensure that the law is human rights-compliant.

If we are to be truthful about the situation in Northern Ireland, it was not the case that abortions were not taking place. Our abortion issue was being exported to other parts of the UK, creating a situation of huge trauma for the women involved, and also creating difficulties for people in more challenging socioeconomic situations and for women in situations of domestic violence and coercive control, who were not able to avail themselves of their rights in the same way that women in other parts of the UK were. I therefore welcome the actions that are to be taken forward.

It is important to recognise that the context of Northern Ireland will still be very difficult. We still have a considerable degree of controversy that Members will no doubt express today. Sadly, we will hear more about it in due course. There is a risk that some of the controversies around the guidance will create a chill factor and make it difficult for healthcare professionals to fulfil their responsibilities. Indeed, we could see a situation in which women are denied their lawful rights in terms of reproductive healthcare, so it is important that we provide a stability of certainty for professionals.

I also recognise that the regulations re-introduce a risk of criminal sanctions against healthcare workers. The hon. Member for Bristol South has already alluded to that. Given the ongoing stigma in that regard, I encourage the Minister to do what he can to give further reassurance that the reinstatement of criminal sanctions cannot be used to prosecute healthcare workers who act in accordance with criminal guidance and who also act in good faith.

I want to put on the record concerns around exclusion zones. I appreciate that the Minister has made it clear that that will be under continued review. Indeed, a wider debate is happening across the UK, but it is important to put it in context. Given the degree of stigma and controversy in Northern Ireland and that there have been considerable problems historically, and indeed today, around the harassment of women who try to access their healthcare rights, it is important that a reconsideration is given due attention as quickly as possible.

There are two important challenges. Before we come to that, it is important that we try to put the issue to bed. Parliament has acted and the clauses in the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 have been repealed. There is a duty in primary legislation to have regulations. Where those regulations are voted down, that duty still continues and further regulations need to be put in place and need to be CEDAW-compliant. That duty is there and continues to exist. It is important that we try to recognise that this debate is now settled, and the same applies to the Northern Ireland Assembly, which has the ability to pass its own measures, but again, it is important that those are CEDAW-compliant. That must be our benchmark.

[Carla Lockhart]

The hon. Gentleman and I will differ on this issue. For the benefit of his constituents, will he make it clear whether he supports abortion for Down’s syndrome up to birth—yes or no?

[Stephen Farry]

I support CEDAW-compliant regulations. It is important that we do not place this in a pejorative way around certain circumstances. Every situation and crisis pregnancy that a woman experiences is a very personal circumstance. The decisions and choices that that woman has to make are often very difficult. We have to give respect and support in that regard.

In that context, I shall make my two final points. The first is that there is a need for the Northern Ireland Office to continue to have a dialogue with the Department of Health and the wider Northern Ireland Executive about ensuring that there is the full provision of services in Northern Ireland. So far, we have seen piecemeal provision; that needs to go further. I regret to report that the Minister of Health in Northern Ireland, rather than treating this as an operational healthcare matter, has referred it back to the Northern Ireland Executive, which is a political cauldron. That will create difficulties in terms of getting decisions to proceed with the full commissioning of services. It is important that the Northern Ireland Office remains fully abreast of that situation and continues to follow up on the encouragement that it has given to date to ensure that those measures are put in place.

It is also important to ensure that there is a proper roll-out of information and guidance, including on websites, for the public to understand what the service situation is, but also to ensure that that is passed down throughout healthcare staff, because there is ongoing confusion. In that context, we could see a situation in which there are rights on paper but not in practice.

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[Sir John Hayes]

That is a question for the Minister, not me, because he will have those figures to hand, but he was the one who made great play of the consultation, not I. He cited the consultation in his opening remarks. Indeed, he celebrated the fact that the Government had consulted widely. I was simply clarifying that in that wide consultation the overwhelming majority of people who responded were not in favour of what we are being asked to support today.

There have been other tests of opinion and other polls. The University of Liverpool released a poll showing that only 5% of Northern Irish voters wanted abortion to be provided up to 24 weeks, which is what the regulations do. The strength of feeling on the issue transcends the usual divides in Northern Ireland. According to polling, 58% of Sinn Féin voters and 54% of Democratic Unionist party voters believe that abortion should be allowed only if the mother’s life is at risk.

I could go on about polling, but I will simply make this point: it would be easy to assume that women took a different view from men, or that the young took a different view from those who have lived longer. In truth, women are less supportive of the regulations than men, and the young are less supportive than their parents and grandparents. In Northern Ireland, the regulations are certainly unwanted. That was illustrated last week, as has been said, when the Northern Ireland Assembly voted to oppose the regulations, passing a motion that states:

“That this Assembly welcomes the important intervention of disability campaigner Heidi Crowter and rejects the imposition of abortion legislation which extends to all non-fatal disabilities, including Down’s syndrome.”

The regulations are unwise. Seventy-nine of the 90 MLAs in the Northern Ireland Assembly voted against abortion on the grounds of non-fatal abnormalities. Despite that, the regulations permit abortion up to birth on the grounds that the unborn child has been diagnosed with Down’s syndrome, a cleft lip or palate, or a club foot. If we vote the regulations through, what does that say to the people in Northern Ireland about how we view their opinion? Even more importantly, what does it say to those disabled people in that part of our kingdom, indeed in the whole of our kingdom, about how we regard them? I say it would broadcast loudly and clearly that we do not regard them very highly at all.

Furthermore, the regulations go much further than the requirements set out in the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 and further than the provisions that apply in England and Wales. Specifically, they allow for abortion on demand without certification through to 12 weeks, which will allow sex-selective abortion to be available during that period. It is the first time that no ground for abortion has been allowed up to 12 weeks. Some will say, “Well, that won’t happen. That’s alarmist. Why on earth would people abort a child on the basis of its gender?” I do not share that uncynical view, because we know there are cases where people have done so, and there are places in the world where that is common. We do not want it happening here, and anything that risks it should, frankly, send a shiver down the spine of any member of the Committee.

Indeed, the Government have curiously—I would go so far as to say remarkably—chosen to impose on Northern Ireland a more permissive regime than the one that applies in England and Wales. I do not have time, and you would not permit me, Sir David, to go through all the areas in which the regulations are more liberal than the regime that applies to the rest of the kingdom. That raises the issue of consistency, certainty and clarity—all used as arguments in favour of the regulations by my right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke, who has now left. How bizarre—[Interruption.] My right hon. Friend is back; her ears must have been burning. If it is clarity, certainty and consistency that we want, why on earth would we want to impose a different regime in Northern Ireland from that which prevails elsewhere?

Yet there is a substantially different regulatory approach to abortions proposed for Northern Ireland from that in England and Wales. The Northern Ireland regime will allow all GP surgeries to be approved locations to do abortions, allowing this serious procedure to take place in a dramatically increased number of locations compared with England and Wales.

[Carla Lockhart]

Does the right hon. Gentleman also agree that the legislation has no reference to inspections of places where abortions can take place, which leaves difficulty in managing where they can and will take place?

[Sir John Hayes]

That is true, too. It is also true that whereas an abortion can be carried out in England and Wales only by a doctor, the regulations extend that. The issue of home abortions, with the woman taking a pill—there has been quite a lot of publicity in the national press in the last few weeks about how that can go wrong—is also catalysed by the proposed changes.

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[Ian Paisley]

It is a pleasure to serve under your experienced chairmanship, Sir David.

This is an issue that is vastly controversial and provokes much thought; in some quarters it provokes concern, anger and frustration, and in other quarters it provokes much happiness. Those are the differences we are in. This divides parties, it divides families and it divides homes. I think everyone recognises the controversial and difficult nature of this.

However, hon. Members should be under no illusion whatsoever: today’s proceedings, when they are voted for—there is no doubt that they will be passed, given the Government’s majority—will not stop the confusion. The promise that this will end the confusion over regulations and all the rest of it in Northern Ireland is complete and total nonsense, as the Chairman made clear when he was addressing the issues to do with points of order. He said he was in the dark about how we got here.

If a Chairman as esteemed as you, Sir David, is in the dark about how the Government got themselves into a position where they are pushing through important regulations about criminality, social and constitutional change and the right to life of the pre-born in a two-and-a-half hour, crammed-in session, in an Upper Committee Corridor in this House, when we were only allowed 17 minutes on the Floor of the main Chamber last year in a previous Parliament—not this Parliament—to deal with the amendments that came from the House of Lords, if that is the fact of how we are going to deal with legislation that affects Northern Ireland in such a massive way, there is zero respect being paid not only to hon. Members from Northern Ireland, whatever their different opinions, but to women in Northern Ireland. This is not the way we should be legislating for anyone or any matter in that regard.

That is why I reiterate the points I made earlier and agree wholeheartedly with the speech of the right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings, who said that the way this has been carried out is an affront to the people of Northern Ireland. The hon. Members who are privileged to vote on this matter today, while the vast majority of Members from Northern Ireland are completely denied a vote on the issue, will have to ask themselves whether they are content that, by the end of these proceedings, they will have helped to pass the most permissive abortion regulations in the whole of the United Kingdom.

The abortion regulations that are being passed for Northern Ireland, as we have already heard in the to and fro, do not mirror what occurs in this part of the United Kingdom, but are completely different. Hon. Members have spoken in the past in this House about having to ensure that English laws represent English votes, and we have English votes for English laws procedures in place to do that. Northern Ireland Members have a right to ask, “Will this House make laws that reflect the character of Northern Ireland?”

The strength of this Union is that it is made up of very different component parts: peoples who have different views, peoples who are divided in many ways. The House should at least respect those differences. If it is good enough to have English votes for English laws, this House should recognise that the changes to be brought about should at least reflect the views of the people in Northern Ireland. As I have already indicated, the regulations are not a mirror image of the law in Great Britain. I hope that I am not being unfair to the Minister, who is an absolute gentleman and always deals with us courteously, but it is wrong to help Members through the Lobbies to vote for this legislation by suggesting to them that, “It mirrors what happens in the rest of the UK, so it is okay—we can push it on through and those Paddys will just have to accept it because it is the same as in the rest of the United Kingdom.”

The regulations do not mirror what happens in the rest of the United Kingdom in four key and distinct ways. The rules and regulations that would be introduced are much more permissive in terms of the gestation time limits that are allowed for abortion. They are more permissive on the issue of sex selection, which is outlawed in the United Kingdom and cannot now be protected in my part of the United Kingdom because no reason has to be given for a termination. They are more permissive in allowing abortion and termination on the basis of disability; and they are more permissive on the social reasons that have to be given, but not the medical reasons on the question of mental wellbeing.

The regulations do not mirror the law in the rest of the United Kingdom. People have talked about having two doctors’ opinions; zero doctors’ opinions are required in Northern Ireland by the regulations. Medical opinion can come from a midwife, a nurse, or anyone with a medical qualification, but the regulations do not specify that a doctor’s opinion is required in Northern Ireland. The 1967 abortion law was brought in on the basis that a doctor’s opinion was key to allowing the decision, and that has been completely done away with. On that key point, the suggestion that the regulations mirror GB is completely and totally erroneous.

Under the regulations, in Northern Ireland no reason has to be given for the termination to take place up to 12 weeks’ into gestation—no reason whatever. That is not the case in the rest of the United Kingdom, where reasons have to be given. In Northern Ireland, that opens the door to sex selection; it opens the door to other social reasons and to other issues that do not form any part of the regulations and practice in the rest of the United Kingdom. That goes well beyond even what CEDAW requires. CEDAW made it clear that there was a deficiency in the Northern Ireland regulations as they stood, because of rape, incest and fatal foetal abnormality issues. That no reason has to be given means that the laws in Northern Ireland would be at variance with and completely different from what happens in the rest of the United Kingdom. That does not mirror the United Kingdom.

On the highest sanction for illegal termination, the practitioner may decide that they are or are not satisfied with the reasons that are given, but are wrong in coming to that decision. If that person is eventually brought to court, the highest sanction that that person will face is a level 5 fine, meaning that, for something that is criminal law in the rest of the United Kingdom, a person can buy their way out of that problem with less than £5,000. That is the fact. The regulations do not mirror those here, where, if someone breaks that law, they face anywhere between five years to life in prison. That really makes a significant change in terms of how the regulations would be interpreted and applied in Northern Ireland. Even the Republic of Ireland, which has changed its abortion regulations, recognised that the punishment had to be by way of imprisonment of up to 14 years. Allowing people to buy their way out of that problem does not mirror what happens in the rest of the UK.



As I have already said, sex-selection terminations will be permitted, as it is not an offence to terminate for any reason. The regulations fail to mention sex selection. The Government have had ample opportunity to include sex selection and make it clear that it is not allowed, but they have been silent. As the Government have failed to mention it, how will the laws that outlaw sex selection in GB extend protections to unborn life in Northern Ireland? Maybe someone does not want a girl or a boy and then decided, “That’s a good enough reason.” It is a travesty, and it is wrong. It does not mirror what happens in the rest of the United Kingdom.

[Carla Lockhart]

My hon. Friend makes a valid point about sex selection. Does he agree that it is normally girls who are aborted? We talk so much about women’s health and women’s rights, yet it is girls who are aborted in the womb.

[Ian Paisley]

My hon. Friend makes the point exceedingly well, and we should listen to her words. This legislation does not protect the rights of women and girls, or of the unborn. It dismisses their rights—that is the fact.

The Attorney General for Northern Ireland has claimed that the Secretary of State has exceeded his authority. That is why the regulations, if and when they are passed, will unfortunately run into further controversy—no doubt they will be challenged. They will not bring an end to a difficult argument or suddenly solve it. We are in the process of dealing with difficult issues all the time, and the suggestion that the regulations end a difficult problem is just complete and total nonsense. If it was so easy, most hon. Members would welcome that. However, in claiming that the Secretary of State has exceeded his authority, the Attorney General for Northern Ireland made the following comments:

“It is doubtful that the legislation gives adequate ECHR protections to the rights of those opposed to these regulations, whether on conscience or philosophical grounds.”

He went on to say:

“It is inappropriate for the provision. In light of the political context that now exists in Northern Ireland, these provisions are actually lawful.”

Let me just complete the quotation. He goes on to say:

“It is disproportionate, contrary to article 9 of ECHR as well as article 8, to require those who undertake ancillary, administrative or managerial tasks to act contrary to their conscience.”