Planning: Ancient Woodland

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Tuesday 13th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Redesdale]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to improve ancient woodland protection in the final version of the National Planning Policy Framework.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, ancient woodland and the substantial contribution it makes to our environment is very important to the coalition Government. We will reflect this importance in the final version of the National Planning Policy Framework, but noble Lords will understand that I cannot anticipate its content before it is published.

[Lord Redesdale]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. However, there is a great deal of concern that the caveat placed on the value of economic development as a reason for granting planning permission could be seen as a worry, especially as it is sometimes quite difficult to put an economic value on ancient woodland, which is clearly irreplaceable. Secondly, has the Minister considered dipping into his own pocket and contributing to the Woodland Trust’s Jubilee Woods campaign? It includes a copse for parliamentarians. Perhaps I may add before the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, laughs that I am sure that he will be contributing as well.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the first point is that no economic value can be put on ancient woodland, because it is irreplaceable. The consultation draft framework maintained a strong protection but, as with current policy, it did not entirely close the door on any loss of ancient woodland. For example, a loss might be justified where a local highway authority wants to make a road junction improvement to save lives. However, as we are carefully considering all the responses on this policy, I am not going to speculate about the content of the final framework.

[The Earl of Clancarty]

My Lords, will the Minister take note that the destruction of ancient woodland is not just a threat but a reality as, appallingly, we have lost 111 such areas in the past 10 years? Will he also take serious consideration of the wider picture of the potential loss to development of large areas of important woodland through council sell-offs, such as, indeed, the recent decision by Somerset County Council to sell a sizeable area of the Quantocks, a decision which many hope will be reversed—land which Wordsworth and Coleridge once roamed across and the public have had access to for a very long time?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Earl refers to incidents affecting ancient woodland. That was an incident of ancient woodland being taken but I suspect that it does not necessarily mean that the whole of the wood has been taken. When ancient woodland is sold, perhaps by a local authority, it does not alter the need to obtain planning consent for any development; and as noble Lords know, it is very difficult to get planning consent if it involves taking ancient woodland.

[The Lord Bishop of Newcastle]

My Lords, trees and woodlands are enormously important to us and to the future of our world, and the tree planting scheme to mark the Diamond Jubilee is yet one more example of that. However, can the Minister assure me that within the National Planning Policy Framework there will be proper protection for undesignated trees and woodland areas and an encouragement to create more community-owned woodlands in this country?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am sure that there will be protection for undesignated woodland. However, the point is that there is very strong protection for ancient woodland because it cannot possibly be replaced or replicated.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, as the Minister will know, the provisional ancient woodland inventory of England and Wales was prepared by the Nature Conservancy Council and is now commonly referred to as the provisional ancient woodland register. Is he satisfied that the ancient woodland register, being provisional, is an adequate basis for the protection purportedly afforded ancient woodlands by paragraph 169 of the NPPF?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am satisfied that the NPPF will protect ancient woodland.

[Lord Tope]

My Lords, the Minister has said that he will not speculate on the content of the final version. Can he tell us when our speculation will end, when it will be published and when we can judge for ourselves whether the final version of the NPPF gives equal weight to longer-term environmental and social concerns, as it undoubtedly will to more immediate demands for economic growth?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the short answer to my noble friend is: the end of the month.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe]

Like other noble Lords I have been waiting patiently for the noble Earl to respond to the other question from the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, about whether he will contribute to the fund that has been established.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am a classic impoverished Earl.

[Lord Hylton]

My Lords, in the present economic situation, would the Minister not agree that British woodlands and forests should be developed in the most commercial way possible while making allowances for ancient woodland? Does he also agree that such woodlands can be treated as quite small areas, rather like sites of special scientific interest?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, all noble Lords understand the environmental benefit of ancient woodland, but it has some commercial benefit as well. Interestingly, hardwood production in the UK amounts to half a million tonnes and total softwood production is 9.5 million tonnes.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, I should perhaps declare that I own a small tract of ancient woodland in south Suffolk. Given the increasing recognition of the revitalising influence of woodland in an increasingly denatured culture, are the Government sympathetic to trying to encourage the laying down of new deciduous woodland?

[Earl Attlee]

Yes, my Lords.

Railways: Great Western Franchise

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Tuesday 6th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the new Great Western rail franchise specification for trains between Bath, Bristol, Newport and Cardiff, and intermediate stations, will take into account recent increases in population and demand.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, recent increases in population and demand will indeed be taken into account. In drawing up the objectives for the new Great Western franchise, emphasis has been placed on the need to provide appropriate capacity for passengers, within the constraints of affordability and available infrastructure. We are looking closely at recent growth trends and forecast demand as part of the specification process.

[Lord Berkeley]

I am grateful to the Minister for that Answer. Presumably he will have read—because I sent it to him—a report of the West of England Partnership’s Joint Transport Executive Committee, which the committee will in fact discuss tomorrow, proposing a greater Bristol-area metro network with much more frequent regional trains and some extra new stations. Will he ensure that that kind of specification is included in the tender specification for the new franchise?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord raises an extremely important point. The Government’s objective is to strike an equitable balance of stakeholder interests: the fare payer, the taxpayer, the long-distance business traveller and the commuter. These stakeholders are obviously in conflict. Because of this, we urge our friends in the west and south-west of England to reach a consensus on their priorities so that we can use our resources to progress them to best effect.

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, the last Great Western franchise was almost a disaster from the day it was let. It has had to be rescued both with more rolling stock and more money. Will the Minister give an undertaking that, whichever bids are received for the new franchise, they are robust bids and, as it will be a 15-year franchise, that they will include quite a contribution of new ideas, new rolling stock and new infrastructure?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, my noble friend makes important points. Although value for money is high up on the agenda, given the challenges set by the McNulty review, the exact evaluation criteria are yet to be determined, but they will reflect the franchise objectives that, for clarity, are managing change, providing appropriate capacity, ensuring that the passenger experience continues to improve, operational and environmental performance, and delivering efficiencies.

[The Lord Bishop of Exeter]

My Lords, the Great Western franchise is one of the most complex in the country, with a clear demarcation between the London-Swansea access and the London-Penzance access. It is vital that fair balance is maintained in the specification to reflect the needs of the whole community. However, in the West Country, there are very real concerns about whether that will be the case. In particular, there is a high degree of uncertainty about the integrity of the franchise specification. Can the Minister offer a clear statement for the Department for Transport about whether the specification will be a guidance document only for bidders or whether it will be regarded as the default position? Does he recognise that the danger is that bidders will front-load the premium payment for the franchise at the expense of essential elements within the specification and that the south-west peninsula could be the loser?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the right reverend Prelate asked several extremely complicated questions, and I think it would be better if I wrote to him. However, I have confidence in the whole franchising process. We are determined to strike the right balance between the needs of all stakeholders. As I said in my response to the Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, there is a conflict between stakeholders that needs to be resolved.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe]

My Lords, I will keep my question brief and simple. Will the Minister confirm that the present rolling stock on the line is quite inadequate, and that it would be totally unreasonable to expect it to continue to be used until electrification in 2018? In the circumstances, and with reference to his first Answer, will he confirm to the people in that part of the country who use the line that the franchise will invite new rolling stock?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, first, we need to be careful about being too specific about which rolling stock should be used. To do so would compromise the negotiations between the train operating company and the rolling stock company. However, a new fleet of IEP trains is expected to be provided for the franchise for InterCity services. This project was initiated by the previous Administration. The new operator is expected to take responsibility for the provision of other rolling stock on the franchise.

[Lord Cormack]

If the Government attach such importance to value for money, why are they persisting with HS2?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, HS2 is somewhat wide of the Question on the Order Paper.

[Baroness Corston]

My Lords, in his Answer to my noble friend Lord Berkeley, the Minister referred to conflicts in the greater Bristol and south-west England area. Will he confirm whether the department is looking kindly on the proposal for the greater Bristol metro?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the document that the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, referred to covers the Bristol metro. It would be very helpful to have a response from local stakeholders on how they want the balance to be struck between the needs of the metro system and those of longer-distance travellers.

[Baroness Randerson]

Will the Minister give us an assurance that the franchise will be let in a manner that is compatible with the establishment of a south Wales valleys metro—a project on which there is a considerable degree of consensus and unanimity in the area?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am sure that officials take all relevant considerations into account, but I cannot comment on my noble friend’s particular point.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, no doubt rail passengers will look with some hope—which we expect to be fulfilled—for the improvement of a service that has been the subject of considerable criticism and dismay among passengers right along the line. Will the Minister confirm that the terms of the franchise will allow fares to be increased by 8 per cent in 2013-14, and possibly thereafter?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am not aware of the noble Lord’s particular point, but we cannot operate a railway system for free; it has to be paid for, and paid for by fares.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, on this Cornish patron saint’s day, will the Minister support the continuance of the overnight sleeper service to Cornwall?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, unfortunately I omitted to ask about the overnight sleeper service to Cornwall. However, some of my ministerial colleagues have great affection for that service.

Gypsies and Travellers

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Tuesday 6th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Avebury]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their response to the communication from the Commissioner for Human Rights of the Council of Europe on the adequacy of the provision of accommodation for Gypsies and Travellers in the United Kingdom.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government replied to the letter from the Commissioner for Human Rights of the Council of Europe on 27 February. A copy was placed on the Council of Europe’s website on 1 March. The Secretary of State’s letter gave details of the measures the Government are taking to improve the situation of Travellers, particularly in relation to the provision of sites.

[Lord Avebury]

My Lords, my noble friend may be aware that local authorities are intending to provide planning permission for less than half of the accommodation that was shown to be necessary in the comprehensive assessment of need conducted during the previous Parliament. First, what immediate action are the Government going to take to increase the number of sites in order to match their legal obligation as identified by the high commissioner to provide adequate housing for Gypsies and Travellers? Secondly, have any of the local authorities and social housing agencies to which the Government recently granted a total of £47 million to build new sites identified the land they intend to use for this purpose, let alone applied for planning permission on it?

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, my noble friend’s question on whether local authorities have identified the land suitable for pitches is a matter for them. If I have any further information that I can give him, of course I will do so. In response to the most important question put by my noble friend, the new homes bonus will match fund the additional council tax raised for new homes, including Traveller pitches, for the next six years. Traveller pitches are usually rated as band A so at present local authorities will get a bonus of £959 per year for six years for each new pitch. Traveller pitches owned by local authorities and housing associations will attract an additional £350 per year enhanced bonus, like other affordable homes.

[Baroness Whitaker]

My Lords, one of the key points made by Dr Hammarberg in his letter to Mr Pickles was about the “significant hurdle” concerning the requirement that for planning permission, the applicant has to establish “Gypsy status” and demonstrate particular “working patterns”. Will the Government now dissociate the granting of planning permission from these inappropriate and restrictive criteria?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Government will publish the national planning policy framework by the end of this month, and shortly we will announce our conclusions resulting from all the consultations we have held related to Travellers.

[Lord Laming]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the Gypsy way of life is extremely hard and that the best hope for them and, indeed, for society as a whole is the provision of sufficient official pitches so that the children—the next generation—can receive a proper education and thereby have an alternative lifestyle available to them?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I agree entirely with the noble Lord’s point.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

Does my noble friend not agree that there is a serious problem here in that as local authorities provide pitches for Gypsies and Travellers, the number of Gypsies and Travellers increases, so we are always behind the curve? Is there not a problem here if we go on providing pitches and the demand continues to increase?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, there are some who think that; it may be the case or it may not. Our duty is to meet the need and we are doing that by means of the new homes bonus and other incentives to deal with the problem identified by my noble friend.

[The Lord Bishop of Exeter]

My Lords, would it not be helpful for the Secretary of State to meet directly with representatives of the Gypsy and Traveller community to discuss with them the issues raised by the Commissioner, and together with them develop measures to deal with those problems? Further, can he say whether the Secretary of State does have such plans?

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I would be very surprised if the appropriate Minister does not have discussions with the relevant organisations.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that about a quarter of a century ago a very distinguished High Court judge, the late Mr Justice Peter Pain, when hearing an application from a local authority in south Wales for an injunction to clear Gypsies from a lay-by said, “I will not grant this injunction because an injunction is an equitable remedy. To claim an equitable remedy you must be equitable. I will only grant the injunction to those local authorities which can show that they have taken seriously their statutory obligations in relation to Gypsies”.?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes an important and interesting point. It is much easier to have an unauthorised encampment removed if the local authority has already made appropriate provision.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, as the Minister has acknowledged, there is a shortage of adequate permanent and transit sites for Gypsies and Travellers, but, at the same time, the Government are dismantling regional spatial strategies, one of the objectives of which was to set targets concerning the number of pitches that each local authority should provide. What evidence do the Government have which suggests that the replacement duty to co-operate will better encourage local authorities to meet their own and their neighbours’ responsibilities?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, as I have said, we have not seen the full government policy because that will be announced shortly. The previous Government’s model of top-down pitch targets under regional strategies has not delivered. Between 2000 and 2010, the number of caravans on unauthorised developments increased from 728 to 3,895.

[Baroness Sharples]

If they are Travellers, why do they not travel rather than getting settled in one spot?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, some Travellers are static, partly because there are not the opportunities around the country and their patterns of work are changing. It would be better in those circumstances if they remained static so that their children could be properly educated, as suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Laming.

Roads: Traffic Lights

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Monday 27th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Spicer]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what consideration they have given to allowing traffic to turn left at a red traffic light in the way that certain authorities in the United States permit vehicles to turn right.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we believe it is unnecessary since, unlike in the United States, most UK traffic lights use traffic-responsive systems to reduce delays and improve traffic flow. In addition, the majority of UK signal junctions are provided with pedestrian facilities, which give a green signal only when conflicting traffic is stopped. Any proposal to allow traffic to turn through pedestrian signals would need to resolve the potential for pedestrian safety to be compromised.

[Lord Spicer]

I thank my noble friend for that Answer but the position in the United States needs to be made clear. According to the American embassy, ever since 7 December 1975 every state has permitted right turning on red traffic lights with no consequent detrimental effect on safety, and with a positive effect on the flow of traffic and, therefore, on energy conservation. Why can we not try something similar with left-turning traffic lights here?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the short answer to the noble Lord’s last point—why can we not try something similar here—is that we believe that it would increase the accident rate. It is very important to understand that the road layout in the United States, particularly in urban areas, is very different from that in the United Kingdom. There is far more space, the junctions are much larger and the cities tend to be laid out on the grid system.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, does the noble Earl agree that the main difference between the United States and here is that being a pedestrian is thoroughly discouraged in the US? You are supposed to drive around 50 yards if you have to and I do not think that there are any bicycles at all. Given that we have lots of pedestrians and a growing number of cyclists, does he agree that, if anyone is going to turn left on a red light, it would be much better if they were cyclists, if it is to be done carefully?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, noble Lords behind me are saying, “No way”, and I think they are right. There are already ways of giving cyclists priority over other traffic and improving their safety at junctions—for example, by introducing advance stop lines and cycle bypasses, and providing dedicated traffic signals for cyclists if required.

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, I am sure the Minister will be aware that New York City does not permit the right turn on red precisely because its layout is so similar to the kind that we see in cities and towns across the UK. Having spent many years driving in the United States, in places that permit a right turn on red, I can say that the problem is not traffic. You can see clearly whether traffic is in the way ahead and to the left, but it is virtually impossible to see whether pedestrians are crossing ahead and to the right. Therefore, in support of all those Members who have said that the difference is that we live in a pedestrian’s world, the United States regards pedestrians pretty much as aliens.

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend is absolutely right in all respects.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I am normally in favour of the British public moving leftwards with the greatest possible facility but on this occasion I agree with the Minister. Very serious accidents have recently been caused by large vehicles turning left and hitting either cyclists or pedestrians because their visibility was restricted. As the Minister has indicated, the fact that our junctions are so much more difficult than the grid system in the United States creates an additional danger and disadvantage.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am very grateful for the noble Lord’s observations.

[Lord Skelmersdale]

My Lords, although this question refers specifically to the United States, has my noble friend considered the position in France, where the conditions are very similar to our own?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, if you look at Paris the conditions are more similar but, as I understand it, Paris was relaid out at one point so the road conditions there are different from those in the United Kingdom. In addition, as I said in my initial Answer, our traffic light system is responsive, so allowing left turns would not give the improvements in productivity that you would get in other countries.

Consumers: Low-Cost Flight Information

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Monday 27th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, for introducing this Question for Short Debate and to all other noble Lords who have contributed.

In an open free-market economy such as ours, with its age-old emphasis on enterprise and initiative, there can be no objection to firms choosing business models that suit their aims, even if it causes them reputational issues. My noble friend Lord Black of Brentwood described some of the benefits of low-cost airlines. They have been innovative and successful, and have grown into important players in the aviation industry, employing substantial numbers of people and utilising great amounts of capital. Schedule airlines, operating to different business models, are holding their own. I should therefore like to add to the premise of the noble Lord’s debate that people buying scheduled airline tickets on the internet also need access to the information they require.

The UK aviation market is diverse and supports consumer choice. What suits a solo flyer with no baggage might not suit a family of four with hold baggage who would like a meal on their flight. The UK’s aviation market has evolved to support these different needs. As a consequence of this diversity and choice, air fares can come with a range of extras, fees and charges. Airlines are required to publish on their websites the information about these fees and charges, but it can be hard for consumers to compare them when they are shopping around for the best price for an air ticket, as has been pointed out by many noble Lords.

The Government’s position is to support the aviation consumer in two principal ways. First, there must be transparency about what is and what is not included in the price. The consumer must know how much to pay in total before he clicks to accept the deal. Secondly, adequate information must be provided for the consumer to make an informed choice on which airline to fly with, regardless of the business model that that airline follows. I will give examples in support of that position.

EU Regulation No. 1008 sets out common rules for the operation of EU air services. Crucially, it sets out the transparency requirements for the display of air fares. Prices are required to be displayed inclusive of all unavoidable and foreseeable taxes, fees and charges at all times. Optional services such as checked baggage or priority boarding are required to be offered on an opt-in basis only. These services should be clearly and unambiguously displayed at the start of the booking process. These requirements are designed to ensure that consumers are able to compare the prices of flights across a number of airlines and that consumers select only the optional extras that they require. The requirements are strongly supported by the Government.

I now turn to another specific proposal that will significantly help consumers. We wish to help purchasers to compare services from different providers on the basis of accurate information. Aviation markets can deliver best value only where objective service information is freely available so that passengers and freight owners have genuine choice between suppliers. We have therefore included in the Civil Aviation Bill currently being considered in Committee in another place a new information duty on the CAA either to publish, or to arrange for the aviation sector to publish, consumer information and advice that it considers appropriate to help people to compare aviation services. This new publication duty would allow the CAA to move into areas where it cannot always obtain information from public sources, such as delays, complaints, baggage handling and environmental performance. The CAA would be able to penalise companies that withheld the data requested. The CAA must also ensure that the benefits of providing information outweigh the costs, so that it does not duplicate existing information or provide data that consumers do not want. The best protection for consumers in terms of choice and value lies in the operation of a competitive market. Consumers need clear information on price and service quality in order to make informed choices, and to ensure that markets deliver consumer benefits in practice. I look forward to discussing these, and other, aspects of the Bill further when it is introduced into your Lordships’ House.

We share consumers’ concern about the high level of payment surcharges applied by some companies, and that often people are not aware of the level of these charges until almost the end of the booking process. This makes it difficult to compare prices and shop around for a good deal. It is not right that a business tries to hide the true cost of its services by implying that its prices are made up of elements beyond its control when they are not.

What are the Government doing? First, consumers are already protected against misleading pricing under the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations. Secondly, as mentioned by my noble friend Lord Black of Brentwood, last December the Government announced their intention to consult on early implementation of the payment surcharges provision of the new European consumer rights directive ahead of their transposition deadline in 2014. The provision will ban businesses, in scope, from charging customers fees which exceed the costs for using that means of payment. The Government plan public consultation on early implementation within the next few months, with the aim that new UK rules could take effect by the end of 2012. The Government will publish guidance prior to the change taking effect to help businesses adjust their pricing strategies to comply with the provision. I stress that this work is about ensuring transparency in headline prices, and not about price control. The aim is to ensure that only the true cost of using a particular means of payment can be charged separately where a business wishes to do so.

I have been asked several questions. I will my do best to answer them, but if I fail, I will of course write in the usual way. On the general point about ticket transparency and how consumers can effectively compare prices, including hidden charges, the Civil Aviation Authority has published a table showing the optional charges which apply when booking with major airlines operating in the UK. This is a valuable tool which will assist consumers in making informed decisions when booking flights.

The noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, asked me when we will stop airlines charging huge fees for printing a boarding pass at check-in. The business model adopted by some well known carriers requires passengers to check-in online and print their own boarding pass. This is legitimate so long as people are clearly aware of it. There is no restriction on the level of charge that an airline may impose for this service. The sum of €40 has been widely quoted. This appears rather excessive, and is unlikely to reflect the true cost to the airline of printing a pass. This practice, along with the identity of the carriers which employ it, has been well published, including in your Lordships’ House tonight. Wherever possible, consumers should take steps to avoid liability to pay the charge. If this appears unfeasible, it is perhaps a factor which they should take into account before booking the flight.

The noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, also talked about the EU 261 levy. EU Regulation 261/2004 gives air consumers rights to assistance and compensation in the event of their flight being cancelled or delayed for over three hours, or if they are denied boarding—that is, bumped off the flight for someone else. In April 2011, Michael O’Leary announced that Ryanair would impose a €2 EU 261 levy on its air tickets. This was marketed as a measure forced on the airline by the EU. In fact, it is a form of Ryanair self-insurance to pay for the obligations that Regulation 261 imposes on the airlines.

The noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, also asked how often consumers compare prices effectively, including hidden charges. I have mentioned the Civil Aviation Authority table. He also asked about the refund of taxes when passengers do not fly. Government taxes, such as air passenger duty, should not be paid if the passenger does not fly. Many carriers will refund this element of the fare on application. However, they may charge an administration fee for doing so and in practice this may swallow up most or all of the amount due to be repaid to the consumer.

My noble friend Lord Alderdice told us, with some justification, about his distressing experience of no-frills airlines. EU Regulation 1107/2006 gives those who are disabled or who have reduced mobility rights to travel. Wheelchair access to aircraft is not chargeable.

My noble friend also talked about the Which? super-complaint. In 2011, the Which? consumer magazine submitted a super-complaint to the OFT, calling for it to investigate excessive surcharges for paying by credit or debit cards.

My noble friend Lord Alderdice also asked about the delay in the implementation of the consumer rights directive until 2014. Although the directive will take two years to come into effect throughout Europe, it is due to be transposed into national law by mid-2014. The OFT has said that companies should be up-front about charges straight away, and the Government propose to consult on early implementation in the UK.

My noble friend also asked what assessment has been made of the effectiveness of Article 23.

[Lord Alderdice]

I asked whether what the Minister in another place said was true—that implementation would be delayed until the end of 2014.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I think it is probably better if I concentrate on answering as much as I can and, if necessary, write to my noble friend.

Aviation is fundamentally an international business. The Government do not intend to introduce tighter restrictions on airline pricing policies in isolation. The European Commission has undertaken a fitness check on the fare transparency requirements, during which it has taken evidence from airlines, the travel industry, enforcement bodies and consumer groups. Its findings have yet to emerge but we understand that the evidence suggests that the rules are not enforced consistently across Europe.

In conclusion, we take this matter seriously. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, for posing his Question this evening.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

I do think that the noble Earl should clarify the situation because now I am confused. I thought that he had given us a more helpful answer when he said that the consultation on the payment surcharges provision would take place during 2012 and that the new rules would be introduced in 2012. However, the last comment that he made in response to the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, left us somewhat confused. Will the Minister clarify whether the rules are likely to be introduced in advance of the European directive in 2014? What timetable are the Government working to?

[Earl Attlee]

The intention is that the Government will see the effect of these new regulations as early as possible. My speech was carefully crafted but if I have missed anything out I shall of course write to noble Lords to clarify any details as necessary.

Gypsies and Travellers

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Thursday 16th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Whitaker]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will consult on a fresh definition of Gypsies and Travellers which would entitle all persons with a cultural tradition of nomadism or of living in a caravan to Gypsy status for the purposes of planning policy and legislation.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Government published their new draft planning policy for Traveller sites for full public consultation last year. The consultation included a question about whether the current definition of Gypsies and Travellers for the purposes of planning policy should be retained. The Government are currently considering all responses to the consultation on their new draft planning policy.

--- Later in debate ---

[Noble Lords]

Too long!

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Baroness’s description of the current definition is right. Some of the responses to our consultation on our draft new planning policy for Travellers’ sites suggested that there should be a separate consultation on the definition. The Government are considering all the responses to the consultation. We shall have to wait to see what emerges from that.

[Lord Laming]

My Lords, does the noble Earl accept that one of the greatest challenges in respect of those who live a nomadic life is to secure continuous and proper education for the next generation—the children—so that they can have not only a choice in their lifestyle in the future and settle into society but fulfil their potential as human beings?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right, which is why I saw a separate briefing from officials at the Department for Education.

[Lord Tebbit]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Avebury]

My Lords, can we now assume that there will be a further consultation on the revised national planning policy framework that incorporates a version of the Traveller document, as recommended by the CLG Select Committee? If so, will the new composite document include a revised and more inclusive definition of Gypsies and Travellers for the purposes of both housing and planning which is based on the Housing Act 2004?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am sorry that I cannot be more helpful to my noble friend but we will have to wait to see what the Government’s response is. However, we will not have to wait too long.

[Lord Tebbit]

My Lords, should there not be an assumption that those of us who live at a fixed abode cannot have the advantages of also living in a caravan and wandering around? Equally, should not those who want to wander around and live a nomadic life accept that there are disadvantages to it and not expect us to divvy up in some way or another to subsidise them?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes an interesting point. However, we all know what the problem is: poor education among Travellers; poor health outcomes; low life expectancy; and severe discrimination. We have policies to mitigate all these. However, at strategic level, successive Governments do not appear to understand what legitimate economic activity consistent with their culture Travellers should be engaged in. I will be taking up that matter with my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Richard]

My Lords, does not the problem go rather deeper than the way in which the Minister seems to be approaching it? The noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, put his finger on one of the issues. Is not the fact that there are not enough sites in this country the real reason why so many people who want to live a nomadic life cannot do so? Therefore, they have to go into static accommodation, which they probably do not want to be in anyway, and which no doubt has planning problems and upsets the neighbours. However, the real problem here is that there are not enough sites for nomadic peoples to go to.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord is right in his analysis. The problem is to find a long-term solution, which is why I referred to the problem of economic activity. Without legitimate economic activity for Travellers, local communities will not be keen on having Traveller sites near them. That is the nub of the problem.

[Lord Kilclooney]

My Lords, during this period of consultation, will the Government look further at the apparent ease with which foreign Gypsies and Travellers enter the United Kingdom?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am not sure exactly which problem the noble Lord refers to, because there are a few, but I will communicate with him outside the Chamber.

[Lord Boswell of Aynho]

My Lords, as a matter of equitable treatment, is it not reasonable that if we are asking Gypsies and Travellers to meet their obligations under the law we should at the same time devise the most sensitive and comprehensive measures of their nature and definition, so that they can avail themselves of their proper rights as a minority—and they should receive those rights as well as meet their obligations?

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

I broadly agree with what the noble Lord is saying. Everyone has rights but they also have obligations—and the obligations are to comply with the law.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall]

My Lords, I wonder whether the Minister could return to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Laming. The noble Earl said that he had received a briefing from the Department for Education on the issue raised by the noble Lord. Is he prepared to share with the House what the briefing says?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I will have to write to the noble Baroness.

Cyclists: Accidents

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Wednesday 8th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to reduce the number of serious bicycle accidents in London.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am sure that all noble Lords will agree with me that every road accident is a tragedy. With regard to the roads in London, under devolution it is for the mayor and Transport for London to decide their cycling priorities and allocate their budget accordingly. We will of course continue to work closely with them to improve safety.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

Is the Minister aware that more women cyclists are killed or suffer very serious injuries on these junctions than men? The reason, it is believed, is because the women wait at the red lights and the men go through them. Large vehicles turning left have a degree of difficulty in seeing people. For that reason, I would like his comments on the so-called “Trixie” mirror—not named after me, and nothing to do with me, I might add—which is proposed for large lorries. Will he also suggest that the Government look into the possibility of the system just being introduced in Paris whereby at dangerous junctions they will have specific lights for cyclists?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Baroness asked me about the male/female ratio. We are aware of the hypothesis. The figures for accidents are mercifully low but, unfortunately, increasing. It is difficult to extract measurable data to formulate policy or make effective regulations. The noble Baroness also talked about “Trixie” mirrors; these mirrors are placed on traffic signal posts and help HGV drivers to see cyclists on their near side in the blind spot at signalised junctions. The department provided approval to TfL to extend the use of these mirrors across the cycle superhighway network, and it will consider further requests for “Trixie” mirrors by other authorities. Unfortunately, I was not aware of the situation in Paris.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that in the present mayor’s time in office accidents have actually increased? It is thought that he has increased the free-flowing of cars and lorries through the junctions, and reduced the time for pedestrians and cyclists to go across. He has also reduced the amount of space on the road for cycle lanes, and things like that—in spite of bringing in the new “Boris bikes”, which of course we all welcome. Could that be looked at? Do the Government think that the idea of a £200 million fund from the Campaign for Better Transport in London to help cycling facilities would help to reduce deaths?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, it is true that, in 2011, 12 out of the 16 cyclist fatalities in London involved a goods vehicle, with seven involving construction vehicles, but it is too early to see whether there are any undesirable trends. Both Transport for London and my department will study these matters very carefully indeed.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate]

Will the Minister indicate what proportion of these accidents are caused by people jumping the red lights, as the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, suggested, and what the Government are doing to encourage the police to enforce the provision?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the last point is the important one. It is an operational matter for the police how they enforce the law. Clearly, the mayor and other authorities will look closely at the police’s performance in driving down road traffic casualties generally, but in particular those of cyclists, because they are vulnerable road users.

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, the “Trixie” mirrors to which the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, referred, have to be fitted on traffic signals and have to receive the assent of the Department of Transport under present regulations. Most authorities that wanted to use them would have to submit a form to the department for the Secretary of State or his representative to sign. Would the Minister look at that bureaucracy? He mentioned that the Government were re-examining the regulations with a view to improving them by 2014, but I do not think that comes under the definition of “soon” that we heard on an earlier Question.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes an important point about the need for the department to approve traffic signs. It is important that the traffic signs are consistent right across the United Kingdom to avoid a plethora of different designs of traffic signal, which would be very confusing to motorists.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that, without trying to lay blame on cyclists or lorry drivers, we want to promote safer cycling and a greater awareness among lorry drivers? I venture to suggest that the problem is not just in London, although I cycle practically every day so I am aware of it. For the Minister’s benefit, I can say that the Paris experiment is about allowing cyclists to go through red lights where the situation is safe, so that will be interesting. Finally, could he give us any information on the number of accidents where wearing a cycle helmet would have improved the chances of a fatality not occurring?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Government encourage the use of cycle helmets but we think it undesirable, as did the previous Administration, to make them compulsory because this could have the unintended effect of reducing cycling despite its undoubted health benefits. On the question of turning left, my noble friend Lord Spicer has an Oral Question about left turns coming up shortly. As part of my research on that, I have just had a working lunch with the chief examiner of the Institute of Advanced Motorists.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, would the roads of London not be less congested and safer for cyclists, and indeed for us all, if there were restrictions on the hours in which delivery vehicles could operate?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord has asked a slightly wider question. There is a freight operator recognition scheme—FORS, a membership scheme—that aims to improve freight delivery in London. It is free, voluntary and open to any company operating vans or lorries in the capital. It has been developed by TfL and is a reward and recognition scheme with the aim of improving safety and operational efficiency.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

My Lords—

People Trafficking

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Thursday 2nd February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, on securing a debate on this important matter and I thank him for raising it today with his usual skill and measured tone. I broadly accept your Lordships’ analysis of the situation. The Government certainly share the noble and right reverend Lord’s forcefully put view that human trafficking is a horrendous crime that needs to be addressed in a systematic and co-ordinated way. Right at the top of that process is my right honourable friend the Home Secretary, and I can assure noble Lords that she takes this matter very seriously.

As noble Lords have rightly observed, estimating the numbers of adults and children trafficked into and within the UK is difficult owing to the hidden nature of this criminal activity, but through the national referral mechanism we are starting to gain some valuable data about the scale of the problem. We know how many victims are referred. What we do not know is how many trafficking operations were successfully deterred or disrupted by the policies of this Government and the previous Government. However, for those victims we do indentify, our systems are now much more able to support them, according to their individual needs. I do not accept that Ministers underestimate the scale of the problem just because we cannot accurately measure it.

In answer to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby, I agree that this is a moral issue. I am sure that Ministers would still not be happy even if we had reduced the numbers to only 100 people being trafficked. We would not stop until we could get it to almost zero. I assure the House that this Government continue to use all resources at their disposal to identify, prosecute and convict traffickers, often working with other countries to bring the perpetrators of this crime to justice.

The noble Baroness, Lady Goudie, talked about the problem of forced labour within the UK. I can assure her that the Government are well aware of that problem.

We continue to review our approach to trafficking to ensure that we remain one step ahead of those seeking to exploit our borders. My noble friend Lady Jenkin raised the problem of men being trafficked out of the UK to places such as foreign construction sites. I was not personally aware of this but I will discuss it with my officials afterwards.

Free movement between the UK and the Republic of Ireland continues to be of immense importance to the economic, social and cultural well-being of both countries. I can assure noble Lords that the UK and Irish Governments are working in partnership to prevent abuse of the common travel area by strengthening its external border while preserving the right of free movement within it for those who are lawfully present. That is enforced by the UK Border Agency and the police carrying out intelligence-led operations to target the potential abuse of the CTA and to identify those who would otherwise seek to avoid UK controls.

Many noble Lords have expressed concerns about the vulnerability of children seeking to travel on Eurostar. Children and any accompanying adults looking to travel to the UK by Eurostar are routinely interviewed at our juxtaposed controls in France and Belgium. Officers seek to establish the relationship between children and the adults who are accompanying them or meeting them on arrival in the UK before allowing them to leave the juxtaposed border control. If trafficking is suspected, they are immediately reported to the appropriate French or Belgian authorities.

The UK Border Agency closely monitors all trains arriving from Brussels and Lille and carries out detailed checks on passengers where it is suspected that a passenger has evaded the juxtaposed controls. Full ticket controls are routinely mounted at St Pancras, Ebbsfleet and Ashford upon notification of a potential passenger who is seeking to arrive in the UK with a ticket to Lille. To supplement this, multi-agency child safeguarding periodic monitoring exercises advised by Paladin are also conducted at St Pancras. We are currently working closely with our Belgian counterparts and Eurostar to resolve the underlying issues.

My noble friend Lady Doocey raised the problem of unaccompanied children. The travel documentation and letter of consent for all unaccompanied children on Eurostar services are examined by border force officers at the controls. It is important to understand that the form signed by the parent or guardian is not designed to be a reliable check in itself; rather, it is the starting point for any inquiries that might be made by the authorities as they see fit. My noble friend also asked me to give undertakings as regards this being an operational matter for Eurostar. Officers regularly contact the parents or guardians of unaccompanied children to verify the letter of consent for travel to the UK. If there is any cause for concern on the authenticity of the consent of the parent or guardian or about the reception arrangements in the UK, officers will interview the parent or guardian. If doubts persist after all appropriate checks have been undertaken, the UK Border Agency may prevent the child travelling to the UK unaccompanied. For those children who do travel, staff at St Pancras identify unaccompanied children as they disembark and escort them to the concourse to ensure that the sponsor is present and is known to the child.

However, in my capacity as government spokesman for DfT matters in your Lordships' House, I have asked my officials to seek a visit by me to Eurostar at St Pancras. I would expect to include an examination of British Transport Police operations in that visit. I am sure that as a high-profile and responsible operator, Eurostar will be keen to show me first hand how it deals with the problems which my noble friend has identified.

Many noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Massey of Darwen, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, are concerned that we might not be compliant with the EU directive because we do not appear to have a national rapporteur. However, the UK is already compliant with this measure through equivalent mechanisms in the form of the UK Human Trafficking Centre as the central repository for data and the interdepartmental ministerial group for oversight. I believe that this meets the need identified by the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich. This equivalent mechanism is broadly in line with practice among our EU neighbours. We are aware of only two countries within the EU that have an independent national rapporteur on human trafficking—the Netherlands and Finland—and I am not convinced that they each operate in the same way. Several noble Lords have referred to the interdepartmental ministerial group. We recognise the need to work across government and we will consider how to strengthen the group to fulfil the national rapporteur role in the coming months. It is important to understand that the EU directive on national rapporteurs requires a national rapporteur or equivalent mechanism to assess trends in human trafficking and activities on anti-trafficking, and to work with civil society organisations and to report. It does not require the role to be independent.

Responsibility for the care, protection and accommodation of child trafficking victims falls within the designated responsibilities of local authorities for safeguarding and promoting the welfare of all children under the provisions of the 1989 and 2004 Children Acts. To support local authorities, we recently revised practice guidance on safeguarding trafficked children with the Department for Education, which will aid practitioners in identification and safeguarding of child victims of this horrible crime. Once a child is placed in care, a care plan is drawn up by their allocated social worker bringing together a range of information and support. The social worker will assess suitable accommodation, educational support and other services based on need. This care plan is regularly reviewed by an independent reviewing officer to ensure that the child’s needs are being met. This will include stability, safety and emotional well-being. IROs are also able to assist the child in obtaining legal advice. My noble friend Lord McColl of Dulwich talked about his important amendments to the Protection of Freedoms Bill. I am sure that my noble friend Lord Henley is looking forward to responding in due course. New guidance for IROs makes it clear that every child has the right to be supported by an advocate. The advocate must accurately represent the child’s wishes and feelings, irrespective of personal views on the child’s best interests.

Another key area is that of missing trafficked children, a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, among others. Your Lordships should not underestimate the progress the Government have made on this. The first CEOP scoping report on this issue, published in 2007, found a shocking 55 per cent of trafficked children missing from their care placement, but with effective work at a local level to tackle this issue, the most recent CEOP strategic assessment showed that this figure had been reduced to 18 per cent. Local authorities such as Hillingdon, Hertfordshire and Harrow are leading the way with proactive, multi-agency partnerships to identify and safeguard trafficked children from going missing from care. Simple changes to the way they handle, for instance, a child’s access to accommodation front doors, mobile phones and other issues have allowed them to make great progress in reducing the number of children going missing. The national picture is still not good enough but the figures are undeniably heading in the right direction. The new human trafficking strategy commits us to working to raise awareness of these issues locally to ensure in all areas where there is evidence that a child has been trafficked, care planning and activities to support the child must minimise the risk of traffickers reinvolving the child in exploitative activities.

As usual, where I have not been able to respond fully to noble Lords’ substantive points, I will, of course, write. In summary, I can assure the House that this Government will lead the fight with our partners at all levels to ensure that our response to this crime remains an effective deterrent to drive down the number and level of people affected.

[Lord Rosser]

As the Minister is closing his comments, in the light of what he said about the Government’s determination to fight human trafficking—I am sure that is the case—is it the Government’s view that sentences for human trafficking are appropriate, bearing in mind that the average determinate custodial sentence for drug trafficking appears to be some 50 per cent higher than that for human trafficking?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, that is a detailed question on which I shall have to write to the noble Lord. An interesting problem is that it can be very difficult to secure prosecutions for trafficking. Often we see criminals being prosecuted for offences other than trafficking because it is easier to secure the evidence. I neglected to answer the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Bew, about a possible gap in the legislation in Northern Ireland. I can assure him that we have not revoked anything and that there will be no gaps.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

Before the noble Earl sits down, I hope that I may ask one question. I do not have a copy of the directive with me in the Chamber but my recollection—it may be wrong—is that the national rapporteur or equivalent mechanism is required to be independent. Perhaps the noble Earl will check that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I received inspiration from the Box, saying that that was not a requirement. If I am wrong about that, I will, of course, write to noble Lords. However, the key point is that we are in line with what other European states are doing.

[Baroness Doocey]

I am very pleased that the Minister will visit Eurostar. I am sure he will find that he is knocking at an open door. Will he also agree to speak to the specialist agencies concerned with child trafficking that work at St Pancras and the Paladin team as I think he might get a slightly different view of the situation regarding the border controls and how the whole thing operates than he has given us today?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am sure that interested organisations will read this debate in Hansard. If they want to send me the right questions to ask interested parties, I will take careful note of them.

[Baroness Goudie]

Will the Government consider fining Eurostar for letting in trafficked people, as happens with airlines?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I think the noble Baroness is referring to the controls imposed on airlines where the passenger does not have the correct document. I am confident that Eurostar will not willingly allow someone to be trafficked. However, we need to understand that this is an activity of those involved in organised crime who are extremely skilful at achieving their ends.

Motion to Adjourn

Moved by

Rail: Great Western Passenger Franchise

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Tuesday 31st January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will ensure that the new Great Western passenger franchise provides the capacity and service quality to meet the expected growth in passenger numbers.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, on 22 December, the Department for Transport launched a consultation on the new Great Western franchise. The consultation document contains the Government’s objectives for the new franchise. These include: providing appropriate capacity for passenger services that is both affordable and delivers value for money for the taxpayer within defined infrastructure and rolling stock constraints on the Great Western network; and ensuring that the overall passenger experience improves throughout the life of the franchise.

[Lord Berkeley]

I am grateful to the noble Earl for that Answer. I have read the document to which he referred and good things are certainly said about the problem of overcrowding. However, he will be aware that according to government statistics eight of the 10 most crowded trains are on First Great Western, and there have been serious overcrowding problems at Bristol and in Cornwall. Given that there will be a long franchise and that the number of passengers may greatly increase, how will the Government incentivise the successful franchisee to run more coaches or trains so that it does not have to go to the Treasury begging for more money?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I entirely agree with the noble Lord on his analysis of the overcrowding problems on the current franchise. He will be aware that the difficulty with the current franchise is that it does not incentivise the operator to increase capacity. However, there will be significant capacity increases, especially with the introduction of the IEP train.

[Lord Touhig]

My Lords, will the successful bidder for the franchise be required to provide new rolling stock? As a regular user of the service, I can testify to delayed and cancelled trains because of mechanical failure, sweltering or freezing carriages because air conditioning does not work, lavatories blocked or flooded, and on one train that I travelled on recently the brakes seized and part of the train had to be evacuated because of appalling fumes that filled the carriages. The one redeeming feature of the present operator is that it has excellent on-train staff, who have a difficult job working for a company that for many of us is still known as “Late Western”.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the bidders are able to take into account the condition of the rolling stock when they bid, with the exception of the IEP rolling stock, which they have to adopt. We need to avoid telling the bidders which rolling stock they have to use because otherwise that would compromise their negotiations with the ROSCOs.

[Lord Snape]

My Lords, will the Minister consider something revolutionary so far as this and other franchises are concerned? The franchisee should set the fares, tackle overcrowding and run a proper financial risk for the length of the franchise; under the present system, the Government set the fares, the leasing companies own the trains and, if anything goes wrong, the so-called franchisee hands in the keys and the taxpayer picks up the Bill. Does he agree that, whatever system we have at the moment for running trains, franchising it certainly ain’t?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord contributes to the consultation, because he makes some valid points.

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, will the Minister address his mind to the fact that, on many of the franchises throughout the kingdom, the carriages in use are full to overflowing, but the Department for Transport holds the trump card in the acquisition of new rolling stock, because it has to give permission before that can be done? Under the new franchise, does he envisage that whoever wins it or other franchises will have reasonable freedom to negotiate, without the dead hand of the department?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the reason why it is necessary for the department to have the final say is so that it could take over the franchise and run the rolling stock. The noble Lord, Lord Snape, talked about the franchisee handing in the keys. Franchisees might want to do that if they negotiated a rolling stock agreement that had a balloon payment right at the end. Obviously, the department would refuse that. We are very keen that bidders are able to negotiate freely with the rolling stock companies, with the exception of the IEP, on this franchise.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, will the electrification proposals have an adverse temporary effect on capacity on the lines? In that context, will the Minister give an assurance that the Government will still consider electrification of the Great Western line through to Swansea?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, on the noble Lord's first point, he is absolutely right that there will be disruption on services from Paddington due to the electrification, but it is obviously worth doing. On the wider point about electrification from Cardiff to Swansea, we shall have to wait to see.

[Lord Rosser]

My Lords, an issue raised by train operators is that, as the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, said, if they want to increase rolling stock capacity to meet extra demand, they have to secure the approval of the Department for Transport either to use existing rolling stock more intensively or to lease additional rolling stock from the leasing companies. The approval of the Department for Transport is also required before train operators can speed up scheduled services following improvements to the infrastructure. Will the Government make provision in the new Great Western passenger franchise and in existing and other new franchises to enable the train operator to make such changes in future, subject to the other terms of the franchise remaining the same, without having to go through the, at times, time-consuming and lengthy procedure for obtaining prior approval from the Department for Transport?

[Earl Attlee]

I think that the noble Lord broadly describes some of the difficulties of franchising. We will have to see what the result of the consultation is.

[Baroness O'Cathain]

My Lords—

[Baroness O'Cathain]

My Lords, in view of the disconnect that seems to exist between the passenger experience and the views of the Department for Transport, would it not be a good idea if the 50 most senior members of the Department for Transport had it within their remit that they have to travel on the “Late Western” line at least once a month?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I do not think that would be a practical requirement. However, one objective of this franchising round is to ensure that the overall passenger experience improves throughout the lifetime of the franchise.

Parliament Square (Management) Bill [HL]

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Friday 27th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Marlesford for tabling his amendment and enabling a little more debate on this topic. I have been looking forward to it all week. The management of Parliament Square is an issue to which I know he and many of your Lordships attach considerable importance, although hitherto I have only commented in private. My noble friend Lord Campbell of Alloway will understand that I shall confine myself to the merits of the amendment, and my noble friend Lord Elton raised other issues.

The Government are committed to restoring rights to non-violent protest. The Government are also committed to ensuring that everyone can enjoy our public spaces and do not consider it acceptable for people to camp on Parliament Square. I am sure that this view is shared by the majority of people in the United Kingdom. I therefore recognise my noble friend’s intentions in bringing forward this Bill and the Government share his desire to see the square cleared to enable its use by the wider public, including protesters.

On the specific amendment, I understand my noble friend’s concern in relation to the storage box structures on Parliament Square which are also used to display protest messages. I would, however, consider that these structures are already captured by Clause 2(2)(b) of the Bill as their function as storage boxes means that they should be captured in the definition of a,

“structure that is designed, or adapted, (solely or mainly) for the purpose of facilitating the sleeping or staying in a place for any period”.

However, my noble friend is a skilled and experienced parliamentarian. I fully understand why he has tabled his amendment and I cannot imagine him leaving a loophole in his original drafting. In relation to hand-held placards, the Government consider that these can be used to facilitate the right to effective peaceful protest and it would not be appropriate to ban their use on Parliament Square. However, if they are left overnight, then they would constitute litter that would be cleared away by the appropriate authority.

As my noble friend is aware, the Government brought forward provisions in the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act to enable tents and other structures, such as those outlined in the Bill, to be removed. The Government commenced these provisions on 19 December 2011 and we consider them a proportionate means by which to manage the disruption caused by the encampment. I am convinced that the Act is properly drafted. On 16 January 2012, the Metropolitan Police Service led an operation to enforce the provisions and remove the encampment in so far as possible given the High Court injunction that is in place in relation to one of the protester’s sites pending a judicial review hearing, as observed by my noble friend. He has by implication made it clear that he does not expect me to comment on the proceedings.

The Government agree with my noble friend that it is necessary for all enforcement agencies to work closely together if Parliament Square is going to be managed in a way that promotes its enjoyment and use by all. That is why we have worked with the Greater London Authority, Westminster City Council and the Metropolitan Police Service to ensure that effective enforcement protocols for the PRSR Act provisions are in place.

Once again, I thank my noble friend for moving his amendment and I hope that he is reassured by the provisions the Government already have in place through the PRSR Act.

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have kindly spoken on this amendment. It sounds to me as though people are reasonably happy that the amendment should be included in the Bill.