Railways: Fares
Earl Attlee Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Bradshaw
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have conducted any comparison of the level of railway fares in the United Kingdom compared with those in countries elsewhere in Europe.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the most recent major study that included comparisons of the level of railway fares in Europe was published by Passenger Focus. It showed that, although the overall picture is mixed, Great Britain compares favourably with other European countries in respect of many ticket types, particularly on longer-distance tickets purchased in advance. The study compared some other factors, such as frequency of commuter services into major cities, in which Great Britain also compared favourably.
Lord Bradshaw
Does the Minister agree that, although the fares are supposed to go up by RPI plus one, there are countless incidents of fares rising by much more than that—for example 9% from Sevenoaks to London. Will he ensure, and also ask his right honourable friend to ensure, that, when a cap is placed on fares, it is a cap that people can understand? The majority of people do not understand the way in which the fares baskets are compiled, which allows such breaches of common sense and of what is commonly understood.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I agree that it must be difficult for ordinary passengers to understand how ticket pricing works. The increase in regulated fares is implemented by train operators as an average across a basket of fares. This flexibility allows some fares to be increased by up to 5%—although only 2% on Southern—more than the average, while other fares must increase by much less or even be held flat to comply with the regulated average.
Lord Snape
Does the Minister agree that this largely synthetic row about rail fare increases takes place every year around new year, when there is not much bad news elsewhere? The British media love bad news, and it provides them with an annual story. Notwithstanding that, does the Minister agree with the figures that show that fares for travelling by train have increased in real terms by about 20% over the past decade, while the cost of motoring has reduced by 5% over that period? Are there not some inconsistencies here in government policy?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, first, the relative prices of motoring and travelling by rail vary up and down. The comparison does vary. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State asked exactly the same question as the noble Lord about the timing of rail fare increases—and he was not amused.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, will mortgages and savings accounts be available for those who wish to travel by HS2?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I know how much my noble friend supports HS2. The business case for HS2 is not predicated on premium fares.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I am surprised that the Minister takes a patronising attitude to what the public understand. The public understand fare increases quite clearly. The National Audit Office warned that if excessive fare increases occurred they would merely be reflected in higher profits for the train operating companies. The Prime Minister said that fares should not go up by more than 1% above inflation—in other words, 4.2%. How does the Minister justify fare increases of 9%?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, a fare increase of 9% can arise where you have the RPI plus one, plus the flexibility that is necessary in order that train operating companies can adjust their fares to suit changing conditions. For instance, let us suppose there was a new shopping centre in an adjacent town. It might be desirable to adjust the pricing structure to reflect that. If there were no flexibility, train operators would not be able to adjust their price structure but would have to stick with an old system.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno
My Lords, does the Minister realise that the main obstacle for many young people searching for employment is the cost of transport, especially since the discounted fares come in after 9.30 am and they might have to get to an interview by 9 am? Will the Minister take this up with the train operators, to see whether there might be more acceptable means of providing cheaper transport for young people?
Earl Attlee
My noble friend makes an important point. The Government recognise that, for those starting their employment career, being able to travel economically to work is important. My noble friend will be aware that a fares review is currently under way, looking at all aspects of the fares structure.
Lord Campbell-Savours
My Lords, fares payable on the day of travel are invariably far more expensive than advance travel tickets. On what basis are the European comparisons that the Minister referred to being made: the former or the latter?
Earl Attlee
The noble Lord asks a good question. Just walking up to Euston and buying a ticket is very expensive, and we do not compare well with our continental partners. However, when we look at advanced purchases, we compare quite well. One day, I wanted to go to the NEC to visit the motor show and I could not afford the walk-on fare; it was too expensive for me.
Lord Dykes
My Lords, on another item of major annoyance to rail users, will the Government encourage the installation of more quiet coaches on all long routes, to follow the excellent example of Virgin Trains, which bans mobile phones in the quiet coaches?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, this is largely a matter for the train operating companies. The difficulty for them is enforcing the quiet carriage rules. I like a quiet carriage, but some people do not adhere to the rules.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester
My Lords, the Minister is right to draw attention to the availability of advanced tickets, which represent decent value for money in the great majority of cases. Does he share my irritation when one discovers that it is cheaper to buy tickets for a journey by buying two or three tickets rather than a through ticket?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I was not aware of that particular anomaly, but I hope that the fares review will look at that.
Growth and Infrastructure Bill
Earl Attlee Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Judd
Before the noble Baroness turns to the amendments, perhaps I may ask her a question. I have great respect for her as a person and a Minister; I know that she very much cares about the qualitative dimensions of British life. On reflection, would it not have been better for the Government to say, “Our objective is to have the most efficient possible economic performance in Britain. We will include the rural areas in this objective. We are determined to have the best possible facilities to service that economic activity. However, we not only want our broadband system to be the best in Europe, we want our areas of outstanding natural beauty, including the national parks, to be the best in the world”? The Government’s purpose is to find a policy that enables both objectives to be reconciled.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I remind noble Lords that we are in Committee. Noble Lords may speak as many times as they like, but it might be for the convenience of the Committee if we allow the Minister to respond initially to the amendments and then I am sure my noble friend will be delighted to take further questions.
Railways: High Speed Rail
Earl Attlee Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Earl Attlee
My Lords, with the leave of the House I will now repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport in another place.
“With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement about our railways. Investing in transport infrastructure is not a choice. To create jobs and to rebalance our economy we need better roads, better airports and better trains. High Speed 2 is a central part of that investment: an engine for growth throughout our country. That is why, today, I am announcing our initial preferred route north from Birmingham and on to Leeds and Manchester. These new services will reach eight out of 10 of our largest cities: places such as Birmingham, Liverpool and Manchester, as well as Leeds, Sheffield, Newcastle, Glasgow and Edinburgh.
In all, 18 cities—and many more towns, too—will be served by HS2 services. HS2 will be completely integrated with the existing rail network, it will bring people and businesses together, it will create an estimated 100,000 jobs and it has the backing of businesses and cities across Britain. We will introduce legislation for the first phase in this Parliament and legislate for the second in the next one. Construction is set to begin in 2017. The first trains will run in 2026 and the second phase will open fully by 2033.
I would like to make three further points. The first is about the need for the line. HS2 will be the first main line to be built north of London for almost 120 years. Some say we do not need another, but the truth is that we are already good at squeezing the most out of our Victorian railway network and, yes, we will get even more out of it in the coming years with massive investment. We are electrifying 800 miles of track and building Crossrail and the northern hub upgrade. These will help to keep us going for the next decade or two, but what then?
Rail passenger numbers have doubled over the past 15 years and demand will keep growing. The west coast main line is filling up. There is not enough space for all the commuters, freight trains and intercity trains that need to use it. That is why I am publishing, after very careful consideration, my initial preferences for phase two of HS2. The case for going ahead rests on the capacity it will provide and on the new connections it will create. It is not just about faster trains to London, but also about changing the way our great cities work with each other. There will be easy links on journeys that are difficult today. It will give muscle to the economies of cities beyond London, producing an estimated £2 in economic benefit for every £1 that is spent.
I frequently hear calls from colleagues in this House for better services to their local stations. They are right to ask for them; High Speed 2 is part of the solution. By creating free space on existing routes, it will allow better services to places such as Milton Keynes and more trains for commuters in areas such as Staffordshire, Leeds and Manchester. I am determined to make sure the benefits of HS2 run much wider than the places directly served by the new line.
Let me turn to my second point: the detail of the route I am announcing today. This follows the Government’s announcement last year about phase one between London and Birmingham. On the western leg from Birmingham to Manchester, I propose two new high-speed stations. The first is in the heart of Manchester, right alongside the existing station at Manchester Piccadilly, allowing easy connections to places such as Salford, Stockport and Bolton and a journey time to London of just one hour and eight minutes, down from more than two hours today. The second station will be at Manchester Airport, giving direct access to the wider Cheshire area. HS2 also will serve Crewe via a dedicated link and high-speed trains will continue on the existing railway to Liverpool, Warrington and Runcorn. They will also benefit from greatly reduced journey times. Further north, near Wigan, HS2 will connect with the west coast main line. High-speed trains can then continue at regular speeds to places such as Preston, Carlisle, Glasgow and Edinburgh. I am working with our counterparts in Scotland on their aspirations for high-speed rail and I have already set out a long-term ambition to get journeys to Scotland below three hours.
Turning to the eastern leg, we will construct three new stations to bring people and businesses in the East Midlands and Yorkshire closer to Birmingham, the north-east and London. The East Midlands station will be located between Nottingham and Derby at Toton. Links will be upgraded to provide fast access to both. The second station will be at Sheffield Meadowhall. It already has good connections and these can be improved further, allowing it to serve all of Sheffield and South Yorkshire. The third station will be located in the centre of Leeds, alongside the South Bank area. As with the western leg, there will be a connection from HS2 on to the existing rail network. A connection to the east coast main line, just nine miles from York, will allow the north-east to benefit, too—London to York in just one hour and 23 minutes, and Newcastle in just two hours and 18.
Lastly, a decision on how best to serve Heathrow will be taken after the outcome of the Airports Commission has been considered by the Government. From day one, though, HS2 will provide far faster journeys than now via a major new interchange at Old Oak Common, linking to the Great Western main line, Crossrail and the Heathrow Express.
The third point that I want to make today is about design and help for those most affected. I know that this is an issue that many honourable Members want the Government to take extremely seriously, and we are. I know that although the line will benefit the country as a whole, it will also create great anxiety among those close to the proposed route, so we will consult properly, design carefully and compensate fairly.
Let me stress that today I am announcing an initial preferred route. This is the start of the process, not the end. We are ready to listen, ready to improve. I want this line to create jobs and prosperity, not harm them, so, where businesses may be affected, we will work with them to find a solution. We will now begin a period of informal consultation on phase two. This will inform the official public consultation, originally planned for 2014 but which I can announce will be brought forward to this year. The aim is to reach a firm decision on the route of phase two in 2014.
I understand how proposals such as these can affect property markets. So compensation will be as generous as on the first phase, and more generous than when we built the motorways. Today I am launching a public consultation on the exceptional hardship scheme for those who must sell but cannot because of HS2. Under this scheme we will pay the full price, valued as if there were no HS2. This will be followed by the next stage of our property compensation scheme, once the final route is confirmed.
There are not many issues on which all the political parties in this House agree; it often feels like there are none at all. This, however, is one because, regardless of the nature of the Government when the first trains run in 13 years’ time, what matters are the jobs, the rebalancing of the economy and our country’s future prosperity. I commend this Statement to the House”.
That concludes the Statement.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am grateful for the positive endorsement from the noble Lord, Lord Davies. He thought that he had identified some differences between us; I do not think that he has succeeded. First, he said that he did not believe that this announcement has any current effect on the economy, and the effect would be all in the future, after the completion of the Crossrail project. However, HS2 Ltd has spent £188 million on this project over either the past financial year or the past 12 months; I am not sure which.
The noble Lord suggested that we should have one hybrid Bill. Noble Lords must understand that the hybrid Bill for phase 1 alone will create extensive and detailed powers. The work required to prepare the Bill is proportionate to the length of the line. It is much better to get phase 1 under way and, once it is, to seek approval for phase 2. There are several very large infrastructure projects under way, but they need to be consecutive, not concurrent. Therefore, Thameslink is nearing completion, Crossrail is starting, and we will then work on phase 1 of HS2 and, finally, start on phase 2. There is an interesting question of whether the phase 1 hybrid Bill should refer to phase 2.
The noble Lord talked about connecting services between HS2 and other cities. Of course, he is quite right. We are clear that the HS2 project must not interfere with and divert resources away from the rest of the railway network. Noble Lords will know that we are doing an awful lot of work elsewhere.
Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Davies, talked about the spur to Heathrow. The Government believe that the HS2 network should link to Heathrow, and our preferred route is for this to be built as part of phase 2. However, since January’s announcement, the Government have also established an independent commission chaired by Sir Howard Davies to recommend options for maintaining status as an international aviation hub. We have therefore taken the decision to pause work on the spur to Heathrow until after 2015. The proposals for the spur and station are not planned to be part of the phase 2 consultation in 2013. However, there will still be an opportunity to consult separately at a later time and include the spur in legislation for phase 2 if that fits in with the recommendations of the commission.
Lord Bradshaw
My Lords, first, we thoroughly support the recommendations. They are about capacity. However, you cannot talk about capacity and ignore the freight dimension, and the freight dimension has been totally ignored by the opponents of HS1.
Secondly, I want to talk about railway fares. We must be careful that we are not building what will be described in the media as a “rich man’s toy”. Is the Minister aware of recently published research which says that British railway fares are in fact lower than those in France, Germany and elsewhere on the near continent? Only fares at the highest peak here are more expensive than in Europe. Will the Minister contact the Rail Regulator and ATOC to see if we can stop these very large increases, often in commuter fares, which are so far above RPI plus one? Fares at RPI plus nine are not uncommon. The next time fares are revised we should attend to the fares basket, on which the fares are calculated, so that people are hit less. Commuters in places such as Manchester and Leeds have seen very little improvement to their services. They have rotten rolling stock that should have been got rid of years ago, and yet they are being called on to shoulder the burden of the investment when it will be a long time before they see any benefits.
Lastly, and briefly, outside the railway industry is where the benefits lie. If you look at Crossrail you will see already that the land and property values are rising very fast, but the railway gets no benefit in terms of the attribution of these in any economic forum.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, first, my noble friend touched on the needs of freight. He is absolutely right, because one problem that we face if we do nothing is running out of capacity on the west coast main line for both passengers and freight. So it is a major driver that we absolutely have to do this project to provide sufficient capacity for freight, because there simply are not the train paths for people to put on the services that they would like to run.
I am looking forward to answering an Oral Question on Thursday regarding railway fares, and my noble friend has been asking me numerous Written Questions about how the fares basket is calculated. One question that it is important to answer is: will it be more expensive to travel by HS2? The issue of fares will be considered in more detail as the project develops. However, our assumptions on the viability of HS2 and the expected fares income do not factor in or depend on a premium for high-speed services.
Lord Soley
Will the Minister assure me that, as in all other European countries, the Government recognise that our future hub airport, wherever it is located, must be linked to a high-speed railway line? Do the Government understand that?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the most cautious approach for me would be to rely on the Airports Commission, but I am sure that it will take that very much into consideration. In the noble Lord’s submission to the Airports Commission, no doubt he will have mentioned that very point.
Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. Will he pay particular attention to the cross-Pennine route between Yorkshire, Lancashire and northern Cheshire? We will get the real benefits for the north only if, in addition to HS2, we improve the links between the east and the west of our country in the north.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, my noble friend is right in general terms. HS2 is predominantly a north-south route and will link eight out of 10 cities, but to get the full benefit we need a complete network. We are doing everything we can to bring to fruition schemes that have a good business case.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, first, do I assume correctly that the £34 billion cost is estimated in terms of today’s money? If so, what is the cost likely to be by the time the scheme is finished in 2033? Secondly, how can the Government be so certain that the construction of HS2 will result in a better balance between the north and the south? Is it not possible that more people than ever would be attracted from the Midlands and the north to London and the south?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I cannot answer the noble Lord’s first question because I do not know what inflation is going to do. As to his second question regarding whether HS2 will benefit only London: no, HS2 will play an important role in rebalancing our economy, thereby enabling British cities to work together as an economic powerhouse. I have already said that eight of the 10 top cities will be linked together. London will have Crossrail; it is now the turn of Manchester, Leeds, Liverpool, Sheffield and the east Midlands, with further benefits to Scotland and a whole host of cities in the north. We are not simply building a railway—a way to get between two points more quickly—we are connecting people and markets, and providing a platform for development and regeneration around station sites.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester
My Lords, I offer my wholehearted support for the Statement and the Government’s strategy on High Speed 2. It is 50 years this year since the Beeching report and 30 years since the Serpell report, which noble Lords may have forgotten had as one of its options a national network of just 1,400 miles. The transformation in the popularity of rail travel and the recognition of the role that rail can play in our transportation has been little short of astonishing. The fact that we can talk credibly about new high-speed railways to the north of England and Scotland demonstrates the fact that demand for conventional rail travel is almost at bursting point, as the Minister said.
Perhaps I may ask the Minister one question and make a further point. Today is very much an endorsement of the approach of my noble friend Lord Adonis, who introduced the very first White Paper on High Speed 2 and set this whole process underway. It would be right for the House to pay tribute to him and his foresight in paving the way for the announcement that the Government have been able to make today.
With reference to what the Minister said about high-speed trains running north on conventional railways, particularly on the west coast main line, can he give an assurance that signalling and other infrastructure on the west coast main line will be sufficiently upgraded to allow these trains to run—obviously not at 300 kilometres an hour but certainly closer to a line speed of perhaps 140 or 150 miles an hour? That will require improvements to the signalling. In that way, it might be possible to achieve the target of reaching Scotland within three hours, which I agree is a very desirable aim.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am grateful for the support of the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester. I have no difficulty at all in paying tribute to the work of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis. This project is going to cover the life of certainly several Parliaments and maybe even several Governments.
The noble Lord talked about speed on the conventional system. One of the problems if we do not do HS2 is that we will have to do upgrade projects on the west coast main line that might look attractive in terms of a business case but, actually, one will eventually run out of capacity on that line, having spent billions of pounds on those projects. The noble Lord is right. I am not sure of the technical points on how we will reduce the journey times from Scotland to London to three hours, but I will happily write to him on that.
Lord Shipley
My Lords, I welcome the announcement very strongly. I have two questions for the Minister. The first relates to the date on which the second phase of the high-speed track north of Manchester and Leeds will join the east and west coast main lines near York and at Wigan respectively. Will the Minister assure the House that this will be done at the very same time as the link to Manchester and Leeds is opened? Otherwise, there might be a flight of investment capital from developers who wonder whether points north of Manchester and Leeds will actually be brought within the high-speed framework. The solution to that problem is for a guarantee to be given that it will be done in 2033, when Manchester and Leeds open. Secondly, I simply ask for confirmation that there will be no reduction in the plans for upgrading the east coast main line in the next 20 years, pending completion of the second phase of HS2.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, my noble friend asked me some important questions about opening events occurring at the same time. Unfortunately, I cannot give the assurance that the noble Lord wants; the date is too far away. However, I will take the point on board. My noble friend also asked me about the upgrading of the east coast main line. It is important to keep that line working properly, but of course we are talking about something quite a long way ahead. I therefore cannot give my noble friend any specific assurances, other than the key one that the HS2 project will not divert resources from the conventional railway system.
Lord Grocott
Like other speakers, I warmly welcome the Minister’s Statement. After all, in this country we built the very first railways and exported the technology to build railways across the world, although sadly in recent decades we have fallen behind. This is a very positive—and for me, exciting—development. I have two points to make from our history. The Minister might find the first reassuring; the second is a question.
The first, reassuring point was made by a railway historian working at the Ironbridge Gorge Museum in my former constituency. He helpfully reminded me that many cartoons and sketches of the 1830s and 1840s speak of cattle not producing milk, hunting and agricultural land destroyed, and the picturesque nature of the English countryside lost forever. I am sure that this is familiar to the House. We all understand the objections that will inevitably come from people along the line and I welcome the assurances that the Minister has given about full consultation. However, in a relatively short period of time, these railways became a treasured part of the landscape.
Secondly, I put the following less reassuring point to the Minister. This is an exciting prospect of about 300 miles of railway—I have not added it all up. The Victorians managed to construct thousands of miles of railway. They did it with picks and shovels, and they managed to do it pretty quickly. Is 2033 the earliest date we can talk about? I have always wanted to live until I am 93, and this would give me an added incentive, but surely it should be possible with JCBs and whatever else modern technology offers to slightly improve on that timescale?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, it is an exciting project. However, we need to be doing it for the right reasons, and I believe—as I think most noble Lords do—that we are. I am sure all noble Lords will agree that it is important that we have an effective and fair system of planning for these large infrastructure projects. However, as the noble Lord will know from his experience as a former government Chief Whip, the process for getting a hybrid Bill through Parliament is quite protracted; it is not an easy thing to do. However, we will do it.
Lord Deben
My Lords, will my noble friend listen carefully to the point that has just been made about speed? I, too, hope to travel on that first train. I would like it to come earlier because that makes it more certain that I will be in a position to do so. Secondly, will he congratulate his right honourable friend in the other House on producing a Statement that was as non-party political as possible, because we need consensus? It did not refer to the fact that since privatisation the use of the railway has increased enormously, and that all the fears that people had have been entirely reversed. It was right to leave that out of the Statement.
Thirdly, does my noble friend not agree that the grandchildren of the people who objected to the railways being built in the first place became those who were most determined to defend them after they had been built? We have to be very firm with those people who, for understandable reasons, do not understand that this country has been held back by its failure over many years to invest in infrastructure. Recent years have seen great change, with the growing of Crossrail and the rest of it. We are a very much more advanced country as a result. Frankly, nimbyism must not be allowed to stand in the way of Britain growing. Will my noble friend be tough about this? It will be easier to be tough if we do this more quickly. The longer we push it out, the more it will be possible for these people to gain support.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, first, of course I always listen very carefully to what noble Lords say. I am grateful that my noble friend thought that it was a non-party political Statement. However, it did say that passenger activity had doubled. In the past, when I had to repeat a Statement that had rather more political content, the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, did not resist the opportunity to give me a good and well deserved teasing.
We have failed to invest in infrastructure in the past. However, over recent years we have rather turned the tide and recognised the benefits of railways. I will be as tough as I can, but in my current position my capacity is limited.
Lord Ryder of Wensum
My Lords, in my experience, when I hear a Statement delivered by a Secretary of State in the other place claiming that the leaders of all the main parties are agreed on a major matter, it invariably turns out to be wrong. In this case, I am reluctant to spoil the celebration. However, in his first point, the Secretary of State in the other place made no financial and economic case at all for the scheme. While I do not expect to be around in 22 years when the scheme is meant to be finished, I am willing to bet that it will never be completed, because the expenditure that is now stated for the cost of the scheme will be inflated year on year, and ultimately a Government, either on this side of the House or the other, will put a stop to it. I am afraid that that has always been the case with the type of vast public expenditure that the Secretary of State effectively announced today without making any case in its defence.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, HS2 has a good business case. If local areas seize the opportunity it presents, we can expect the benefits to be even greater. We are continuing to work with stakeholders to realise these benefits. The latest available estimates suggest that HS2 will return around £2-worth of benefits for every £1 spent. HS2 has the potential to generate transport-user benefits with a net present value of up to £48 billion, and revenues with a net present value of up to £33 billion. The construction costs of HS2 are broadly similar to the sort of money we are spending on Crossrail, so the incidence of expenditure on the project will be affordable.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
My Lords, there was one slightly opaque sentence in the Statement, which otherwise I welcomed. It referred to consultations with the Scottish Government. Might I persuade the Minister to enlarge a little on that? The last thing we want is a good, high-speed service as far as the north of England and then second-rate ones thereafter.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I can assure my noble friend that there are ongoing discussions on that particular issue between my right honourable friend the Secretary of State and the Scottish Government. The southern portion of the HS2 system has the better business case and therefore it makes sense to start that first, safe in the knowledge that Scotland will still benefit from the reduced journey times to London.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, this is a visionary and exciting day, but is it not ironic that most of the existing railway network in this country outside London was built in about 20 years in the Victorian period, whereas it is going to take 20 years to build one and a half new lines now? Is it not time that people started to look at a long-term vision of high-speed rail in this country, extending from the north-east of Scotland to the south-west of England as well as routes to London?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the first point is that our democracy is a little bit more developed than when we started the railway system in the United Kingdom; it was easier to secure parliamentary approval in those days. I recognise that HS2 does not do anything for the West Country in itself, however noble Lords will know that the Great Western is a very fine line.
Airports: Heathrow
Earl Attlee Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Browning
My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Forsyth, and at his request, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, Heathrow has already incorporated all 14 recommendations of the 2011 independent Heathrow resilience inquiry into a £50 million improvement programme, including more snow clearance vehicles and improved operational command and control and passenger welfare procedures. These enabled Heathrow to reduce disruption significantly compared to 2010. Airlines have also improved their responses to severe weather. However, we are asking them to explain why aircraft de-icing problems occurred at Heathrow and what improvements are needed.
Baroness Browning
I am grateful to my noble friend, but we will all have witnessed on the television the misery of passengers and, of course, the damage done to the UK’s reputation. Is it not time for Heathrow to learn the lessons quickly so that we do not have these annual reports following what was, after all, a rather modest snowfall?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I agree that there has been some disappointment about performance at Heathrow, and my right honourable friend the Minister of State will be having a chat with its management. However, noble Lords will be well aware that TV loves to portray a bad news story. It is interesting that it did not portray the problems at other European airports, which were also very significant.
Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale
My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is not a question of de-icing or clearing the runways? British Airways comes on the television screens explaining proudly its problem that, “We run at 99% capacity. The slightest difference in allowing time between flights means that we have to cancel”. It turned out in this case that one in 10 incoming flights was cancelled on one day, and that on another it was one in five. Is it not time that an airport that is trying to pretend that it is an international hub stops running at a rate of capacity that is clearly outwith its capabilities to sustain?
Earl Attlee
I think that the noble Baroness is suggesting that an extra runway would solve the problem. However, I should point out that Charles de Gaulle airport experienced a cancellation rate of 40% despite having four runways.
Lord Bradshaw
My Lords, I have managed all sorts of transport terminals and routes. The only way to deal with the problems at Heathrow would have been to put in a contingency plan which reduced in advance the number of flights taking off and landing. Proper contingency planning is needed so that passengers are advised well in advance not to leave their homes, not to leave their hotels and not to sleep on the terminal floor. Will the Minister encourage the CAA and other aviation authorities to introduce such plans?
Earl Attlee
My noble friend is quite right in his analysis of a possible solution. Indeed, that is what happens. A committee called HADACAB determines whether we need to cancel some flights in advance in order to provide capacity to do things such as keep the runway clear. In addition, in future, as a result of the Civil Aviation Act 2012, the Civil Aviation Authority will be able to set resilience conditions on the operator’s licence, but that will not be until April 2014.
Lord Davies of Oldham
I am so sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, was unable to ask this Question. That would have given me the opportunity to agree with him twice in consecutive days, which would be some kind of record as far as he and I are concerned.
As the Minister is so well briefed as to tell us what other European airports suffered delays, will he put in the Library an analysis of these problems, because north American airports, which have vastly more problems with snow than the UK, seem to keep planes flying through a great deal of it? It would be interesting to have a real, proper comparison.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the way I would explain the situation with regard to my noble friends Lord Forsyth and Lady Browning is: out of the frying pan and into the fire.
As the noble Lord will understand, the meteorological conditions in north America are very different from those at Heathrow. It is interesting to note, however, that airports such as Zurich, Geneva and Basle also experienced cancellations.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
My Lords, I was one of those held in Madrid because of BA’s failure to take us on Friday. It re-booked us on Saturday, but again we were unable to fly BA. However, Iberia, closely connected with BA, had no problem whatever in taking us half an hour after the BA flight time. What is happening when a company such as Iberia, closely connected with BA, can fly and carry passengers without difficulty when BA cannot?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I suggest that the noble and learned Baroness writes to BA for an explanation.
Lord Elton
My Lords, I think I can keep going. In answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Ramsay, my noble friend said that Charles de Gaulle has four runways, but the comparison she was making was in capacity. We would like to know what percentage of capacity Charles de Gaulle is running at compared with Heathrow.
Helicopter Flights: Central London
Earl Attlee Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Earl Attlee
My Lords, helicopter operations in central London are strictly controlled, and last week’s accident was the first fatal helicopter accident in London since civil aviation records began in 1976. We are waiting for the Air Accidents Investigation Branch to complete its investigation to ensure that the reasons for the accident are understood before we consider whether any further measures are necessary. There is no reason to believe that helicopter operations over London are unsafe.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester
My Lords, the safety record of helicopter flying in London has indeed been very good, as the Minister said, but does he not agree that the number of new high-rise buildings around Vauxhall Cross has made the approach to Battersea heliport increasingly hazardous? Can he give an assurance that the inquiry into last week’s accident, which could have been so much worse, will include consideration of whether that heliport should continue to operate?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, it is not for me to prejudge the result of the investigation or to tell the Air Accidents Investigation Branch how it should conduct its operation, as I am sure the noble Lord understands. The Civil Aviation Authority is closely involved in the planning process, and it is unlikely that planning permission would be granted for a high building in the face of opposition from the Civil Aviation Authority.
Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I declare an interest as president of the British Helicopter Association, which is the trade association for the helicopter industry. Does my noble friend agree that there should be no knee-jerk reaction to this tragic accident? We need to understand the facts. These are always complex, and the Air Accidents Investigation Branch will be able to deduce what all the reasons were. Does my noble friend also accept that helicopter flying into and over London provides health support through the work of the Helicopter Emergency Medical Service, security through police helicopters and some of the military, and also contributes to the wealth of the capital through general helicopter traffic in support of business?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I agree with everything that my noble friend has said. In addition, I point out that the Civil Aviation Authority considered the operation of helicopters over London in 2005, and we are currently operating under the regime it recommended.
Lord Berkeley
Are not these helicopters known to everyone as being incredibly noisy? Surely, apart from the police and health helicopters, there is no argument for having a commercial heliport in central London. There is a perfectly good public transport service within London. Cannot these very important people use airports instead?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, we are not aware of any horrendous problem with helicopter noise, although I have answered an Oral Question in your Lordships’ House about it. The number of helicopter flights over London has almost halved over the past few years, and the level of noise disturbance has reduced accordingly—although, of course, the economic situation may be impacting on that. It is also clear that helicopters benefit the city both by supporting the economy and by providing essential support to the emergency services.
Lord Broers
My Lords, can the Minister tell us how often the charts are updated and whether pilots are tested for their knowledge of the charts? That building has been there only a few months. I declare an interest in that I live right next to it. I have just been waiting for this to happen.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, first, I am confident that the charts are up to date. Secondly, when any new structure —or a very tall crane—is put in place, if it is necessary aviators are warned about it through a well understood mechanism.
Baroness Walmsley
My Lords, is my noble friend the Minister aware that the planning application for the very tall tower into whose crane the helicopter may have crashed was turned down by Lambeth Council following massive objection from local residents? It was then passed by the Planning Inspectorate. I declare an interest as a local resident. Do the Government think that the criteria used by the Planning Inspectorate should take more account of local objections before overturning local authorities’ planning decisions, and does not this disaster demonstrate that local people usually know what they are talking about?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, when we have a disaster such as this we need to look at the technical aspects and listen to the advice from the Air Accidents Investigation Branch and the Civil Aviation Authority. As to the planning system, that is a rather different question; we have debated planning quite a lot recently in your Lordships’ House.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, one feature of the response to the crash was the speed and efficiency with which the emergency services dealt with the accident. Is the Minister aware that the fire appliance that arrived there early came from Clapham fire station, which, under the mayor’s proposals, is due for closure? Will the inquiry examine that point? Does not this crash indicate how dangerous it is to cut back on our essential emergency services?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, it is for the Air Accidents Investigation Branch to choose whether or not to comment on this matter. Provision of fire cover in London is a matter for the mayor under the legislation introduced by the party opposite.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom
Does my noble friend accept that many of the helicopter flights over London are carried out by the police when they carry out surveillance? It is an astronomically expensive way of doing it. Have the Government considered using drones for this activity?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am not aware of whether the police have considered using drones; that is a matter for them. I did ask whether balloons could be used rather than helicopters. The difficulties are, first, that balloons are more vulnerable to wind conditions and, secondly, that the helicopter needs to be able to manoeuvre over a street to get a good view of it. The advice I received is that a helicopter is the ideal way to undertake surveillance operations.
Scrap Metal Dealers Bill
Earl Attlee Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Earl Attlee
“( ) This Act expires at the end of 5 years beginning with the day on which section 1 comes into force.”
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 2 and 3. These three government amendments relate to the expiry and review of the Act. The Government made a commitment during the Bill’s Report stage in the other place to lay these amendments and I hope that noble Lords will view them in good favour.
Amendment 1 inserts an expiry clause into the Bill whereby the Act will automatically expire five years after commencement of the licensing requirement in Clause 1. Clause 18 contains a review provision and I would expect the Government of the day to carefully consider the outcome of the statutory review and bring forward an appropriate response to provide some long-term certainty for the regulation of the scrap metal industry.
While I am sure that the industry would prefer longer-term certainty, the review and subsequent expiry will see early action if this regulation is proving costly, difficult, or ineffective. That said, the Government are confident that the provisions in the Bill will have the desired effect and that any subsequent legislation will be based around this regulatory regime. However, having listened to the arguments made during the Bill’s passage in the other place for the inclusion of an expiry clause, we agreed to its inclusion, which is why we have laid this amendment today so that the Bill will automatically expire five years after commencement.
Amendment 2 modifies the review clause from five to three years. The statutory review will require the Secretary of State to assess the extent to which the Act’s objectives have been achieved and a shorter review period will therefore allow this consideration to be made at an earlier stage. This review will play a pivotal role in the development of future legislation and tie in with the timetable for bringing forward any new legislation after five years.
Finally, Amendment 3 reduces the scope of the review to remove the need to assess whether the Act should be repealed. This requirement is no longer necessary because Amendment 1 inserts a sunset clause—the expiry clause—and the Act will therefore automatically be repealed after five years. The review should, however, focus on assessing the effectiveness of the regime and recommending any future legislation required.
These three amendments will achieve the right overall framework for the future of this regulatory regime and allow for the Government of the day to bring forward effective long-term regulation following an assessment of the effectiveness of the Bill before us. I beg to move.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester
My Lords, I hold the noble Earl in the highest regard, so I know he will not take personally the criticism that I going to direct at the amendment which he has moved this morning. In my time here, I can recall a number of occasions when attempts have been made in this House to add a sunset clause to a Bill that has come to us from another place. In every case, these clauses had been felt necessary in order to improve an otherwise unsatisfactory Bill—often to insert a safeguard into a measure that was controversial or threatened civil liberties and human rights. That is not what we have in front of us this morning. This amendment will not improve the Bill; indeed, it will damage it in two material respects.
First, passing the amendment will delay the Bill’s enactment, as it would have to go back to the other place to get the amendment agreed. Given the track record of a small number of Conservative MPs who routinely try to use procedural devices to block Private Members’ Bills, who can be certain that those who threatened to talk out this Bill on 9 November—or some of their friends—would not attempt to do the same thing again? If, however, we pass the Bill unamended, it would not need to return to the House of Commons and could obtain Royal Assent almost immediately.
My second objection to the sunset clause is that it sends the worst possible signal to all those who are desperately attempting to tackle and defeat the metal thieves. Heroic efforts have been made in the last year by the British Transport Police and the civil police, local authorities, trade associations, reputable scrap metal dealers, the churches, the War Memorials Trust, the energy companies, Network Rail and the train operating companies and the Home Office. They have all worked tirelessly to bring down the incidence of metal theft, catch the offenders and ensure convictions.
As I said at Second Reading, as a result of all this activity, the British Transport Police told me that,
“there has been a decrease in reported metal theft of 52%”.—[Official Report, 30/11.2012; col. 412.]
There have been numerous press reports of successful prosecutions and convictions. In my own area recently, we saw the conviction of all eight members of a Romanian gang which had travelled from Birmingham to the Cotswolds to steal engineering cable from the railway worth nearly half a million pounds on the line between Evesham and Moreton-in-Marsh—two towns not known for their incidence of high crime. How can it make sense for this House now to agree an amendment which would take this vital new law off the statute book altogether in five years’ time and give whoever is in government then the headache of having to pass such a law all over again?
Thanks to the diligence of the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, and the Commons sponsor, Richard Ottaway MP, we have an excellent Bill in front of us, which, as every noble Lord who spoke on 30 November believes, will do the job expected of it. I am aware that the Minister in another place gave a commitment to give this House the opportunity to consider the addition of a sunset clause—not to improve the Bill, but in order to buy off the two Members who habitually cause trouble for Private Members’ Bills. The noble Earl has fulfilled that commitment by moving that amendment this morning. It does mean that the House is obliged to accept it.
Lord Rosser
A three-year review does not mean that it automatically ceases after five years, which is the effect of the sunset clause. The two are different. The first is a review: the sunset clause means that the Bill ceases to exist unless further action is taken.
What guarantees will there be that the Bill, if the amendment is agreed, will not be subject to similar threats of being talked out that it has already experienced when it returns to the Commons once again as a Private Member’s Bill. It could be talked out either by the two Conservative Members already involved, who have after all already tasted blood, or through various amendments to the amendment that we are now considering by one or more other Members who might be less than impressed with what has already happened in the Commons and the way that the Government have dealt with it. They may feel that the Government should now be left with a choice of either having no Bill or bringing forward their own Bill.
The noble Earl does not know what will happen to the Bill if it has to go back to the Commons because it has been amended in your Lordships’ House. He cannot give any guarantees, since I assume that the Government are not at this stage thinking of taking the Bill over.
Agreeing to the amendment will create further delay and uncertainty for this Private Member’s Bill which, once again, will run the risk of being talked out in the Commons. The way to avoid further delay to the Bill becoming an Act and the way to avoid the uncertainty caused by the risk that it will be talked out if it has to return to the Commons, is to not agree to the amendment or, far better, for the noble Earl to withdraw his amendment.
Failure on the part of the noble Earl to do that will surely show that addressing internal party problems is of more concern to the Government than securing the passage of the Bill as quickly as possible in the interests of all those who have suffered the consequences of metal thefts, whether from our war memorials, churches or railways. I urge the noble Earl to withdraw the amendment and let us get this Bill to the statute book as quickly as possible and not delay unnecessarily. There is no dishonour in this House in doing that.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who contributed to this important debate. First, the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, talked about the need to use Private Members’ Bills. The noble Lord knows perfectly well how difficult it is to secure time for a government Bill. My noble friend Lady Browning’s comments reminded me of my Road Traffic (Enforcement Powers) Bill that I ran as a Private Member’s Bill in your Lordships’ House on behalf of the Labour Government and the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. I experienced similar problems trying to get the Bill through the House of Commons because of the sadly deceased Mr Eric Forth.
There is no benefit to be gained from inadequate reform of the scrap metal industry. The clause would allow for the system of regulation to be fully reviewed and assessed and for the government of the day to re-legislate in five years. The Government are not making these amendments because we do not have faith in the Bill delivering what is required. We believe that the Bill will be effective and that the review will bear testament to that.
How the House of Commons decides to handle a Bill is clearly a matter for that House. I agree that the House of Commons has problems in the way that it handles Private Members’ legislation—in a way that we do not. I do not accept that this Bill would be at an unacceptable risk if we sent it back to the other place amended. The Government are fulfilling their commitment, made in the House of Commons. We expect individual Members of the House of Commons to fulfil their commitments.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, if the Bill is amended as my noble friend proposes and it then goes back to the other place and there are difficulties, will the Government take it on and ensure that it reaches the statute book?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am confident that individual Members of another place will undertake to meet their commitments. Perhaps I may carry on.
We should not risk the House of Commons being reluctant in the future to accept government commitments in the circumstances of private legislation. My noble friend Lady Browning talked about honour and the word of a politician. How right she is to do so. We all know in our hearts what the right thing to do is. The noble Baroness, Lady Farrington, is correct in what she says—
Lord West of Spithead
My Lords, the noble Earl says that we all know in our hearts what the right thing to do is. As has already been said, the Government fully support this Bill—it has the support of all parties—so all this amendment is doing is delaying it and introducing real uncertainty as to what will happen to it in the future.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I will come on to talk about the future, but I am confident that it is not a problem.
As I was saying, the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington, is correct as usual, but that is trumped by the need for the House of Commons to be able to rely on government assurances made in respect of a private Bill.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, does the noble Earl intend to tell us that the Government gave an assurance as to the result of your Lordships’ consideration or merely that the Government would table an amendment, which they have in honour fulfilled. However, it is for this House to decide. The Government cannot give a commitment that your Lordships will vote in favour of that commitment.
Earl Attlee
The noble Baroness is, of course, absolutely and precisely correct, but my advice to the Committee is to accept this amendment.
I was asked whether there are any plans for the Government to include the contents of this Private Member’s Bill in a government Bill. The current Government do not have any such plans and it would be for the Government of the day to decide on the most suitable legislative vehicle to relegislate in this area. I would also point out in response to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, when he identified problems with renewing legislation, that as a defence spokesman he will know that the Armed Forces Act has to be renewed by order every year and by Act of Parliament every five years, but that does not mean that members of the Armed Forces do not have confidence in the legal arrangements of the Armed Forces.
I was asked the broad question of whether the Bill could not simply be re-enacted after five years. The outcome of the review could well recommend that the Bill meets its requirements and should be continued after five years. The Government of the day would have to make the case back before Parliament; that could be one approach that is taken. The principle of parliamentary sovereignty means that any future Parliament can legislate as it sees fit at any given time, even if this means acting inconsistently with the previous parliamentary intention.
Noble Lords will be aware that provisions to extend the life of a Bill are relatively easy to make, either by a Bill with a tightly worded Long Title or through an appropriate clause in a rather wider Bill. That would meet the need and it is not a difficult thing to do, as experienced noble Lords well know. In answer to my noble friend Lord Skelmersdale, I have already explained how the review system will work. Once the Bill becomes law, the fact that it was a Private Member’s Bill will make no difference. My noble friend Lord Forsyth asked whether, if an amendment is not agreed, a Bill can go to Royal Assent. Yes, of course it can, as all noble Lords well understand. If we do not agree this amendment, the Bill will go on to Royal Assent and become law. That is simple fact. However, future government assurances about Private Members’ Bills will carry a lot less weight, and I am not convinced that that is in anyone’s interests. Therefore, I beg to move.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
Before my noble friend moves the amendment, could he explain the principle that a Bill will carry less weight when it has been passed by both Houses?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, perhaps my words were not clear. I did not mean that the Bill would carry less weight, but that a government assurance made at the Dispatch Box in respect of private legislation would carry less weight. If future Ministers experience the same problems in the House of Commons, they will not be able to get out of the problem so easily.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I apologise for interrupting my noble friend once again. My noble friend Lady Browning, who is a lady of considerable integrity, has done what she said she would, the Government have done what they said they would do, and their assurances have been met. However, neither the Government nor the movers of a Bill can anticipate and pre-empt the decision of a House of Parliament.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I have already agreed exactly that point with the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington. The Committee can decide this amendment as it pleases, but my strong advice to the Committee is to agree to it.
Marine Navigation (No. 2) Bill
Earl Attlee Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Wilcox for her concise and cogent introduction to her Bill; the House would expect nothing less. I also thank all noble Lords who have taken part in its Second Reading today. The Bill covers a variety of issues affecting maritime activity, but all are focused on giving responsible organisations greater freedom to act to maintain and enhance safe and efficient operations.
I recognise that some noble Lords have concerns about the potential impact of one or two clauses in the Bill. It is right that we should give careful consideration to those concerns. My noble friend Lord Selsdon made one of his usual fascinating speeches; they are not to be missed and are essential reading and viewing.
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked why the Prince of Wales’s consent was not required for this Bill. The House authorities confirmed to parliamentary counsel that the Prince of Wales’s consent was not required for this Bill, so it was not sought. The Prince’s consent was required for the previous Bill because it made provision about lighthouse authorities and therefore directly affected the Duchy as the local lighthouse authority for the Isles of Scilly. That provision is not part of this Bill. As the noble Lord acknowledged, the Bill does not impose measures on harbour or local lighthouse authorities; it enables them to seek changes to their powers if they choose.
Pilotage is a profession that emerged in the earliest days of maritime trade, in recognition of the need to provide valuable ships and their cargo with safe passage into harbours or through dangerous waters. The Rolls of Oleron—a code of sea laws first promulgated by Eleanor of Aquitaine in the 12th Century and introduced in England during the reign of King Richard I—exacted severe penalties on any pilot who lost a ship in his care. He was to be beheaded. Whether this draconian punishment served to improve standards of pilotage, I could not possibly say. I can say, however, that it forms no part of our current pilotage legislation—the Pilotage Act 1987. Although this may be an extreme example of an earlier legal provision now deemed redundant, it is reflective of the tides of change and the need to modernise legislation on occasion. This Bill contains such modernising legislation.
The 1987 Act gave the function of managing pilotage services to individual Competent Harbour Authorities, which are best placed to understand the potential dangers to shipping in their own waters. This Bill would give the CHA greater control over Pilotage Exemption Certificates, the PEC mechanism. My noble friend Lord Caithness talked about some of the worries that people had when he introduced that legislation.
My noble friend Lady Wilcox eloquently explained the purpose of PECs and I only wish to add that we in the Government consider that PECs are a proven, sensible and safe mechanism that forms an important element of pilotage provision in the waters of a CHA. Nothing in this Bill reduces the standards by which a PEC applicant is to be assessed. It concerns only eligibility.
The evidence from the Chamber of Shipping is that this measure could provide great encouragement to ambitious deck officers in the UK ferry industry. Opening up the path of progression, subject to careful examination, rewards both dedication and hard work and helps the ferry industry to prepare the next generation of senior officers.
The noble Lord, Lord Chidgey, suggested potential pilotage problems on the Humber. In making his argument against Clause 2, I did not recall him explaining why the CHA would issue a PEC to an incompetent person. As I said before, the clause concerns only eligibility. Further it is not clear to me why an officer can be first mate on one ship and have a PEC for a particular ship and harbour but if, for some reason, he becomes second mate on a similar ship, plying to the same harbour, he cannot have a PEC. The law, as it stands, also means that you can have only two PEC holders on any ship.
The noble Lords, Lord Berkeley and Lord Greenway, touched on the problem of the shipping industry being under intense commercial pressure and we know they are quite right. Like the noble Lord, Lord Chidgey, the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, does not explain why Clause 2 in my noble friend’s Bill requires a CHA to lower the standards of pilots. The clause concerns only eligibility. The noble Lord also questioned whether a second mate on a dredger would have the necessary qualifications. The answer is that the CHA will not grant a PEC if the officer is not competent of piloting that ship in that harbour.
My noble friend Lord Caithness talked about the definition of a deck officer. Many years ago I came across the term “deck officer” and I have no difficulty at all in understanding what we mean by it. I am sure that my noble friend Lady Wilcox will take comfort from the support of my noble friend who, as he pointed out, is a former shipping Minister with considerable experience. My noble friend teased the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, on the effect of the passage of the Bill if we did not include Clause 2. I thought I heard the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, say that he hoped that the Bill will indeed pass.
I turn to harbour directions. Since 2000, the Department for Transport has encouraged harbour authorities to secure powers of general direction to support the effective management of vessels in their harbour waters. This recommendation has always been a prominent feature in the Port Marine Safety Code, the non-statutory guidance produced by the department and Maritime and Coastguard Agency in association with representatives from the ports industry, trades unions, and other maritime experts. Given that ports have long been advised to seek this power in order to manage risk effectively, it is very welcome that this Bill seeks to provide a straightforward mechanism to do so.
The Royal Yachting Association has been doing sterling work with the ports associations and the Chamber of Shipping to develop non-statutory safeguards. A code of conduct on harbour directions is envisaged and a draft version is already well advanced. At their most recent meeting on Monday 14 January, discussion focused on a few drafting tweaks that are still required and I expect it will be possible to report further progress at Committee stage. This is a perfect illustration of how the mature maritime sector can be trusted to get on with the job without requiring government interference.
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, talked about problems of the Port of Dundee applying directions to recreational users on passage plans. The Port of Dundee confirms that it is its intention that this direction will apply to work boats and not to recreational users. Full consultation took place and changes to directions were made where necessary.
The General Lighthouse Authorities—the GLAs—are three distinguished organisations with proud histories of serving all those who navigate around these islands. The safety of mariners is their raison d’être and this goes beyond their statutory duty of providing aids to navigation. Just last autumn, a Northern Lighthouse Board ship passing St Andrews spotted red flares sent up from a fishing vessel taking on water. The incident ended happily, thanks to the alertness and presence of mind shown by the GLA crew.
The three clauses relating to the GLAs would confirm operational practices of benefit to the modern mariner and allow the GLAs to undertake additional commercial work. In doing so, it would enable the generation of additional income to pay for the GLAs’ essential role in providing marine aids to navigation around Great Britain and Ireland. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord MacKenzie of Culkein for giving us a more detailed insight into this activity.
I am always grateful to have the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, on my side, but we are fortunate to have several experts available in your Lordships' House. The noble Lord pointed out that GLAs’ commercial operations have to show a profit. I also point out that the Department for Transport improves significant contracts so matters cannot get out of control with large loss-making contracts undercutting commercial operations. That simply would not happen.
The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, talked about the potential for PEC holders on a ferry, perhaps, losing experience because there were several PEC holders on the given ship. My understanding is that the PEC holders are reassessed by the competent harbour authority every 12 months. If they started to get rusty, they would experience difficulties in renewing their PEC.
I trust that I have provided some reassurance to noble Lords that the Bill would protect and enhance marine safety and that there are real safeguards to ensure that the powers of harbour direction are used appropriately. I join my noble friend Lady Wilcox in commending it to the House.
Airports: Capacity
Earl Attlee Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Spicer
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the average percentage of total capacity used at London’s commercial airports over the past six months.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, between May and October 2012 there were 525,000 commercial air transport movements at the five largest commercial London airports: Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted, Luton and London City. These air transport movements used around 86% of the available runway capacity.
Lord Spicer
My Lords, why are we allowing the London airport system to run out of capacity?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, we are not. We have set up the South East Airports Task Force to look at short-term measures to gain some capacity at Heathrow. In the rather longer term, we have the aviation policy framework, which we are committed to publishing in March 2013. Finally, we have set up the Airports Commission, headed up by Sir Howard Davies.
Lord Clinton-Davis
Is it not likely that non-British airports will heartily welcome the Government’s unpardonable delay in selecting an international hub airport, whether at Heathrow or elsewhere? What does the Minister say about that?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, this problem was not unforeseeable. It has been coming for many years, including when noble Lords opposite were in government. We need to get a consensus and find a lasting solution that will survive a change in Governments.
Lord Bradshaw
I hope that the noble Earl will ponder the following: a great deal of the heat in the debate about air capacity is caused by the bidding war that has broken out between various airports and airlines. Will the noble Earl ensure that the Davies commission will, to the best of its ability, be governed by the fact that we should create extra capacity only when a real need is demonstrated?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am confident that the Airports Commission, headed up by Sir Howard, will consider all relevant matters.
Lord Soley
The Minister will know my opinion on this but I put it to him very strongly that just about everyone in business has been saying that delaying this infrastructure project is crucially bad for the British economy. It is the delay that is causing the problem. If the Government picked up the previous Government’s policy and continued with it we would not be in this situation now. That would not cost a single penny of public money. Please, please move on this for the sake of the British economy, investment and jobs.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, it is important for businesses to put their own submissions in to the Airports Commission, as I think the noble Lord has already done himself.
Lord Elton
My Lords, institutions can scarcely run at 100% capacity, any more than you can have 100% full employment. There has to be some slack in the system. How long does my noble friend think that the 14% capacity that he says is now available will last? What steps are being taken to meet the moment when it is full?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, DfT aviation demand forecasts suggest that with no new runway Gatwick Airport could become full from around 2018 and Stansted from around 2030. That is why we have set up the Airports Commission to advise us on viable options for solving this problem.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe
My Lords, to come back to the original Question, there is a 14% underuse capacity in the five major London and south-east airports. What plans do the Government have to utilise that capacity, given the failing to direct daily flights to some of the major economies around the world and new developing economies? What can be done immediately and what will the Government do?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, it is important to understand that we are very well connected by Heathrow Airport. It is connected to the rest of the world better than most other places in Europe.
Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, my noble friend’s Question referred specifically to commercial airports, but not far from Heathrow lies Northolt—principally a Royal Air Force airport but used for some other domestic and international semi-commercial flights. What problems and constraints exist in the further use or development of Northolt to add value to what otherwise would be part of the same hub of London airports?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I understand that there are some difficulties with the runway orientation of Northolt airfield. I am sure that that is a factor that the Airports Commission will take into consideration.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, in his opening response the noble Earl referred to the fact that a consensus was necessary to make progress over the considerable period of time needed to expand airport capacity. Although he quoted 86% for the south-east airports, we know that Heathrow is at over 99% utilisation and has no scope at all for development. The Opposition have offered to the Government for more than a year now the opportunity to establish a consensus by joint talks. Could the noble Earl at least persuade his ministerial colleagues that these should take place, and that they would be aided by a somewhat earlier timetable for the commission’s report? Why is it having to report after the general election when the urgency of the situation is apparent to everyone?
Earl Attlee
The noble Lord makes a strong point. The Airports Commission will report with its initial findings by the end of the year. I would be delighted to talk to the noble Lord privately when we get that initial report. But it takes time to do the job properly.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I wonder if the Minister might remind the House that capacity at Heathrow is for 90 million passengers per year. Currently it has only 70 million passengers a year, because airlines are using small aircraft in order to keep their slots alive and are developing most of their flights within the UK and near continent, not for the long distance routes. Will he explain to the House that capacity is far more complex and that there is a great deal of capacity with the potential for much better utilisation already in London?
Earl Attlee
I agree with my noble friend that if you use bigger aircraft you can get more passengers through Heathrow for the same number of flights.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester
My Lords, what proportion of the capacity at Heathrow do the Government estimate will be released if their plans to build High Speed 2—initially to Birmingham and then to Manchester and Leeds—are fulfilled? Is it not the case that when high-speed railways are built on the continent, domestic aviation diminishes and as a result there is spare capacity at airports?
Earl Attlee
The noble Lord makes an important point, but it will not solve our underlying problem that we will still eventually run out of capacity at the London airports.
Public Service Pensions Bill
Earl Attlee Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Earl Attlee
That it be an instruction to the Committee of the Whole House to which the Public Service Pensions Bill has been committed that they consider the Bill in the following order:
Clause 1, Schedule 1, Clause 2, Schedule 2, Clause 3, Schedule 3, Clauses 4 to 15, Schedule 4, Clause 16, Schedule 5, Clause 17, Schedule 6, Clause 18, Schedule 7, Clauses 19 to 24, Schedule 8, Clauses 25 and 26, Schedule 9, Clauses 27 and 28, Schedule 10, Clauses 29 and 30, Schedule 11, Clauses 31 to 38.
Public Bodies (Abolition of the Railway Heritage Committee) Order 2013
Earl Attlee Excerpts(13 years, 2 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Earl Attlee
That the draft order laid before the House on 29 October be approved.
Relevant documents: 10th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, 15th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I welcome the opportunity to say a few words in prime time about the draft order to abolish the Railway Heritage Committee and transfer its functions to the board of trustees of the Science Museum. The need for the order arose from the Public Bodies Act taken through your Lordships’ House by my noble friend Lord Taylor of Holbeach.
First, the Government fully recognise the valuable work that the RHC has carried out over a number of years in indentifying and designating railway artefacts and records of historical significance so that they can be preserved for future generations. During its life, the RHC has designated more than 1,300 artefacts and many thousands of important historical documents, including the Brunel drawings of the Great Western Railway, the collection of British Transport Films, paintings by Terence Cuneo, coaches from the Royal Train, a travelling Post Office sorting van and the GNER archive.
Apart from its secretary, the members of the RHC are unpaid, giving their time free of charge. Their passion and enthusiasm are noteworthy, providing a good example of the volunteering spirit that is so vital in preserving this country’s rich railway heritage. As your Lordships will be aware, the Government were originally minded to abolish the designation function along with the RHC on the basis that no equivalent protection exists for other transport sectors. However, the Government do listen and were persuaded of the unique position that railways play in this country’s heritage and, as a result, agreed to the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, during the legislative passage of the Public Bodies Act that the RHC’s designation function should not be lost but instead transferred to the board of trustees of the Science Museum.
There are many benefits to that approach, not least of which will be the streamlining of the process by transferring it to a larger group, the Science Museum Group, where economies of scale can be utilised by employing resources across a wider range of duties. The Government carried out a targeted six-week consultation which revealed that, although there was significant support for the RHC, the majority of respondents appeared to be pleased with the proposal to maintain the designation function and transfer it to the board of trustees of the Science Museum. Many recognised the need for rationalisation of the functions or expressed a view that the exercise of the designation function is more important than the vehicle through which it is delivered. There was strong support for the board of trustees of the Science Museum being ideally placed to take on the role in future, especially if it appoints external panel members to ensure that there is no conflict of interest between it carrying out the designation function and its role as a governing body of the National Railway Museum.
The Government are determined to reduce unnecessary bureaucracy, overheads and management layers wherever possible, and believe that this is a good example of where these objectives can be achieved. The RHC’s main committee and three sub-committees will be replaced by a railway heritage designation advisory body with a chair and around 10 members, a number of which will be drawn from the RHC to ensure a smooth transition of expertise. I am pleased to report that a shadow version of this advisory board has already been set up, with its first meeting having taken place on 22 November. Also, once the designation functions have been transferred to the board of trustees of the Science Museum, they will be governed by the provisions of the National Heritage Act 1983, which should allow the board of trustees greater flexibility to create a more efficient organisation.
The cost of running the RHC is currently about £100,000 a year, which would be largely reduced and absorbed within the existing budget of the Science Museum Group. The back-office functions will be more streamlined, as they will be absorbed within the existing structure of the Science Museum Group. It is anticipated that the appointment of the external, non-Science Museum Group members to the advisory board will negate any potential conflict of interest between the board of trustees of the Science Museum carrying out the designation function and its role as the governing body of the National Railway Museum. We are confident that this will ensure that the National Railway Museum does not receive unfair preference. I understand that most members of the new advisory group will be external to the Science Museum Group and will include representation from Scotland and Wales.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I am somewhat surprised that the Minister did not think that there would be a view from the opposition Front Bench on this issue, particularly given the Government’s record in handling this matter. Speeches from both sides of the House have clearly stated the advantages of preserving volunteers and their work, the spirit that they bring to that work and their achievements, which are on record. When they swept this particular element of largely volunteer work and constructive work by communities, the Government were seeking to establish the great society.
Lord Davies of Oldham
I am grateful to my noble friend, but he will forgive me if I feel that the challenges that we ought to put down today are not to former members of the Cabinet but to Ministers who speak in this House on behalf of members of the Cabinet still exercising power at present. The Minister should recognise that the contributions today have shown how necessary it was for him to make the shift that has been made regarding the original intention of abolition, and not to care little about what happens subsequently. It is quite clear that the Government have understood that necessary work needs to go on, but my noble friend Lord Faulkner has identified where they are still falling short of giving a guarantee that this work will be carried out as thoroughly as it has been done in the past. I hope, therefore, that the Minister will give some clear answers to my noble friend, because the anxieties of the House are manifest.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am grateful for the kind words from the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester. Noble Lords supporting him seemed to be a bit more strident than the noble Lord himself. As your Lordships will be aware, I am also very keen on the preservation of our country’s transport heritage, particularly road transport vehicles. Sadly, I do not have enough time to get involved with railway preservation. However, no one should underestimate the sterling work of the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner. You can have thousands of volunteers on the ground, as referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, but you need the support of people such as the noble Lord to skilfully interface with central government.
In moving his amendment, the noble Lord talked about the scope of the order. The noble Lord will know that Ministers gave very careful consideration to these matters but, for the reasons outlined in my opening remarks, it was not possible to accede to his request. However, we recognise that the structure of the rail industry has changed in recent years, and indeed a number of respondents to the consultation indicated that they should be included in the scope of the designation powers.
Wider changes to the way in which the designation process operates, which would require changes to the 1996 Act, would also be beyond the scope of what can be done in relation to the RHC under the Public Bodies Act. The Department for Culture, Media and Sport will carry out a review within three years, after the designation function has transferred to the board of trustees of the Science Museum, in order to establish whether further bodies, or classes of bodies, should be included within the scope of the 1996 Act and whether the burden on bodies, as a result of the exercise of the designation function, can be reduced.
The noble Lord referred to the problem of well meaning members of the public and the benefits of having the RHC, or an equivalent, to determine these designation matters. I agree entirely. The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, with whom I have never debated before, spoke about the work and the need for the designation function. He is quite right—that is why I was able to persuade my right honourable friend the Secretary of State to retain the designation function.
The noble Lord, Lord Snape, made a great speech but seemed to have missed the point that his noble friend had saved the designation function. It will carry on, as requested by my noble friend Lord Cormack. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked what the difference was between the RHC and the Science Museum Group. It is not just about the costs but about improving efficiency and effectiveness.
I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, will feel free to withdraw his amendment and that the House will agree my order.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester
My Lords, it has been a very interesting debate and I thank every noble Lord who has taken part in it. In all parts of the Chamber, there have been impressive demonstrations of support for the work of the Railway Heritage Committee, for the cause of railway heritage as a whole and, indeed, for the role of our railways in our society. I thank every noble Lord who has participated.
As I shall be playing a part in the work of the Science Museum advisory board, I hope very much that I will be able to satisfy the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, and my noble friend Lord Snape that in future we will do as good a job as the Railway Heritage Committee has done. I am particularly pleased that there has been such praise for the work of the Railway Heritage Committee, which I have not been a part of for the past three years. I am sure that the members of that committee will be very gratified that there is such support for the work that they have done and that their efforts are being appreciated. I have to tell noble Lords that back in 2010 they did not feel that they were being appreciated and it appeared that the committee was being abolished almost by a stroke of the pen.
My noble friend Lord Snape referred to the sterling work by Mr Michael Portillo in saving the Settle to Carlisle line. If he is interested, and if I might be allowed a small commercial, your Lordships will find in the Library a book, of which I am the co-author, that was published last week called Holding the Line: How Britain’s Railways Were Saved, in which the saving of the Settle to Carlisle line is described in some detail.