Police Service: New Governance Structure

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Thursday 1st November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Prescott]

My Lords, I offer my congratulations to the noble Baroness, Lady Henig. She a said a great deal with which I agreed. They were the arguments that I used when I voted against this legislation, but, of course, the Government persevered with it, very much at the pressing of the noble Lord, Lord Wasserman—I shall come to that in a few minutes—resulting in the policy that we have today. However, I have to admit my interest as I will be fighting in this election in two weeks’ time to become a commissioner and I admit to being a white male candidate—probably old as well—but I hope that I shall be able to put the case.

My case is about whether the new police governance structure which the Motion before us today is about, and the policy that the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, was critical of, are satisfactory for us. It cannot possibly be that there was a failure in the policy that the Government inherited. In fact, that was not the case; if anything, as the noble Baroness pointed out, it was a very successful policy. It is 20 years ago that Tony Blair announced that he would be tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime. His emphasis on the causes of crime was quite important, but it was laughed at at the time. But if we look at the analysis 10 years on, we find that the rate of criminal offences that have taken place has reduced dramatically. It is not just in my own area of Humberside, where it has gone down by 40%; in every area of England and Wales, crime fell by around 40%. Whatever the judgment in this House is and whether it is a democratic one or not, I assume that it is really about reducing the incidence of crime. Then there is also the participation of the social mechanisms involved in it; the criminal side and the police and social causes are two sides of the same coin in any successful policy—and that clearly came about.

So it cannot be that the policy is failing. I think that it is because the Government think—and there are a number of reasons given for it—that it is costing a lot more than it should. That is a fair point to make; the Government have an argument. Policing in austerity, as Her Majesty’s Inspector of Constabulary said, will have an effect. That is probably true, but is the choice then to cut about 20% in resources and get rid of 15,000 police? If anyone believes for a moment that that will improve the situation or help the decline in crime to continue, they are living in another world. Indeed, it is obvious that, whatever crime statistics you take, if you take away the resources and reduce the scale of policing, there will be an increase in crime. So you have to make the judgment whether the priority is to save the resources or to keep the community safe with an active police and social policy in this area. That is a judgment that we can all make. Certainly, this new policy of reducing on such a scale will have that effect. So I need to look at other reasons.

I can understand the argument on austerity, although I am bound to say that Her Majesty’s Inspector of Constabulary made it clear that these cuts were at twice the rate that they needed to be. In my area that makes quite a difference—and I think that that is so in every area. So while not rejecting the idea of austerity, we must ask whether it has to be so deep and quick as it is at the moment. I as a commissioner would be expected to produce a five-year plan within five weeks. I do not know what the extent of the cuts will be, and we still have the public expenditure review to come. We will have £23 million in cuts and I do not think that that is the end of it. They have already cut £500,000 from the community safety management programme, so we have not stopped the cuts. Presumably, whatever the circumstances, these cuts will continue.

You have to ask yourself why this is happening, in those circumstances. To a certain extent, the public expenditure cuts are one reason—then there is decentralisation. This Government talk about decentralising and taking policing away from the Home Office, but if you look at the proposals that have just come out the very opposite is happening. The policy concentrates more and more power in the hands of the Home Secretary. The proposals are to abolish ACPO; there will now be another council of chief constables, which will presumably report to the Home Office. The proposals are to replace the Inspector of Constabulary with Mr Winsor, and the report basically threatens the confidence of the police. The National Crime Agency is a body that can overrule the chief constable and it is related to who? To the Home Secretary. That concentrates power not in the local area but in the Home Office.

Then there is the abolition of police authorities, which is supposed to give greater democratic accountability. The noble Lord, Lord Wasserman, is a great force in democracy. Looking at his background, I do not think that he ever took part in an election. He is a great civil servant, great scientist and a great adviser on both sides of the Atlantic, but absolutely useless in understanding the democratic process. Of course, he is entitled to speak as an individual—but do not give us the quote of experience, because he has got none of it. The noble Lord, Lord Wasserman, has been one of the biggest gurus in the development—is he going to get up?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I hope not.

[Lord Prescott]

I presume that was to stop me in my flow. I hope that that will be taken into account when it comes to the eight minutes.

On the democratic accountability and the election of the PCCs, November is the worst time to hold an election—everybody agrees on that—with a voting system that does not necessarily mean that you need 50%. You can have a very low proportion of the vote and still be a commissioner. No doubt there will be a question about the legitimacy of someone being a commissioner on such a low vote. No money is being given for the election candidates, or information about the candidates. Do we really accept that this Government are interested in democratic accountability? It is a load of nonsense—they never have been. To that extent, we will get a low turnout.

The PCCs have been given the opportunity to provide a plan. They have to do that in five weeks—it is already ready and agreed with the Home Office. It just gets handed to us. I will not do that; I will not accept that kind of analysis. It is not fair. It is certainly not politically accountable because it is the Home Office telling us what we do with the plan when we should be asking the people in our area what should be the priorities in the plan. We are not doing anything about that and the chance to do so is denied to us because of resources. In all these areas we are finding a loss. In Humberside it is £23 million. We have the difficulty of cutting too fast and face a basically bleak future, with crime increased.

Why did we pursue this policy? I will finish on this point. The noble Lord, Lord Wasserman, is one of the gurus—I have read more about him: this guru has been over to America and come back here, and he is an adviser to the Home Office and to the Prime Minister. God help him, he does not seem to be getting many answers right but let us leave that aside. He has given that advice and yet he refuses to appear before the Select Committee in the House of Commons to answer what this new IT company will be doing. I understand that he will be chairman of this new IT company, which recommends £500,000 be paid to the chairman—three times the amount given to a Prime Minister. Is the noble Lord going to be chairman? I hoped he would speak after me but I notice that the organisation shoved him in front so I cannot ask him that. But I will tell you what this IT company will do: it will privatise the intelligence and technology. All this is about creating space in the police force for privatisation.

We saw that the Home Office is still trying to advocate privatisation, though Surrey and Midlands have rejected that so far. In my area, Lincolnshire already has G4S in. God help them. We saw what happened at the Olympics but G4S is already in on contract. This is about privatisation.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords—

[Lord Prescott]

The noble Earl must be fair: he got up before. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Wasserman: you are advocating democracy. You are adding more accountability. I read in one of his speeches that Lords should encourage people to vote. Why did he then sign an article saying that I should not be the commissioner in Humberside? Quite frankly, who the heck is he to say that and appeal to my electorate not to vote for me? I say to him: come up to my area, debate with the people as to who has the right to make that decision—advisers like him who will not speak openly, or politicians, who are accountable. I am a politician. I am accountable. Come up and debate with us instead of hiding behind your position.

Railways: London Midland Rail Franchise

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Wednesday 31st October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they will take regarding the London Midland rail franchise, following recent disruption of its services.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, London Midland has not yet breached its contractual cancellations benchmark, which is calculated as a rolling annual average. However, if the situation continues and cancellations increase, the department has a range of actions available, which will certainly require robust plans to improve performance and, potentially, further punitive measures. My honourable friend the Transport Minister Norman Baker discussed the matter with London Midland’s managing director last week to apprise him of the department’s concerns.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I am not sure that that will be much compensation to the thousands of travellers, particularly in the West Midlands, who have suffered from the cancellation of hundreds of trains in the past few weeks. Can I take the noble Earl to the general obligation contained in the franchise agreement, which is that the operator should undertake its job with a,

“degree of skill, diligence, prudence and foresight”?

The problem with the London Midland service is a shortage of drivers. I would have thought that that is ample evidence for an intervention into the franchise agreement. This company is not fit to run the franchise.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I share the noble Lord’s concerns regarding passenger experience. He is right that the problem relates to a shortage of drivers and the ability of London Midland to retain the drivers it has and attract new drivers. It is a competitive market. There is also a considerable lead time for taking on and training new drivers. This is a matter for London Midland. However, there are strong incentives for it to put the situation right.

[Lord Snape]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that since being granted a franchise London Midland has never recruited enough drivers or train crew generally, including conductors? Through the period of the franchise it has relied on its staff working rest days, Sundays and voluntary overtime in order to maintain the service. Without knowing the actual benchmarks to which the Minister referred, can he explain why on one day this year it cancelled no fewer than 100 services because of a lack of train crew? Is it not about time we did something to change this franchisee before all of us in the West Midlands take to our motor cars permanently?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, it would be premature to terminate the franchise at this point. There are severe penalties for breach of franchise. The noble Lord’s analysis of the problem may be right. However, it is important to understand that all train operating companies rely on rest-day working but only to the extent of about 3% or thereabouts, whereas this operator is now in the region of 6%. A shortage of drivers causes a serious problem for that operator but it is the train operating company’s problem.

[Lord Hughes of Woodside]

Can the Minister tell us what the benchmark is?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the short answer is no; the longer answer is that it is a moving annual average. The train operating company has the benefit of earlier good performance. However, if it carries on with the current trajectory, it will be in serious difficulties.

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, it takes at least a year to train a driver. If we try to cut it down, we face the horrors we saw at Ladbroke Grove some years ago when an undertrained driver caused 30 deaths. London Midland has a full number of drivers in training and will bring forward a new timetable in December covering most of its services. Instead of talking about punishments and retribution, could we prevail upon the train company to put all its efforts into using all available media methods to apprise customers of any cancellations as far in advance as it can?

[Earl Attlee]

I entirely agree with everything my noble friend says, particularly his point about customers making sure they check with National Rail Enquiries shortly before their journey to give themselves the highest chance of not arriving at the station to find the trains are not running.

[Lord Morris of Handsworth]

My Lords, is it not a fact that this Government and trains do not go together? First of all we had the fiasco over the west coast main line and Virgin. Ministers keep their jobs and some get promoted but, of course, civil servants get suspended. Some 3 million people are unemployed but London Midland still cannot get any drivers. To top it all we have the Chancellor—the Chancellor!—buying a second-class ticket and trying to travel first class. Is it not about time that we sent for Thomas the Tank Engine?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, first of all, there is no shortage of potential recruits to be train drivers, although a potential train driver needs to have certain attributes. The problem with the west coast line is one of franchising and procurement, but here the problem for the train operating company is in retaining and recruiting sufficient drivers to meet its obligations.

[Baroness Sharples]

Does not the present problem arise because the drivers were required to work during the Olympics, and now they need leave?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, my noble friend is more or less right. The problem is that the chickens are coming home to roost because leave was restricted during the Olympics period, so the drivers want to have their leave now. In addition, we are experiencing the problems of the half term, when drivers naturally want to be at home with their families.

[Lord Tomlinson]

Will the noble Earl explain to the rail company involved that recruiting drivers for training is one thing, and getting them through the training is another, yet if the company does not retain them we have the fiasco that we have today? Will he emphasise to the company that part of the process of retaining their drivers is to pay them a comparative salary to those of rail drivers in other organisations?

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord is basically right. Full driver terms and conditions, including salaries, are confidential to the drivers concerned; however, a glance at the London Midland website states that the company is advertising for qualified drivers at a salary of £42,620, while Chiltern Railways, by comparison, is advertising for qualified drivers and offering £46,344.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I have considerable sympathy for the Chancellor. Last weekend, I found myself totally confused by first class, second class, the price of tickets, which line to be on and everything else. When I showed my rail card with an old photograph of me, the ticket inspector said, “Gosh, you look like George Osborne”, which was a bit of a shock. Does not the noble Earl feel that we should try to simplify this plethora of ticket types and rules? It is totally confusing.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that the ticket system is very complicated and no one has fully grasped the nettle, as yet, to put in place a better system.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

My Lords, the noble Earl has repeatedly talked about the moving annual average. Does this mean that the rail company concerned is able to claim that it is always an average year in terms of its performance, in that it is worse than last year and better than next year?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, first, it is important to understand that the TOC has a target of continuously improving performance. Secondly, we need to understand that the penalties for breaching the contractual obligations are actually quite serious; so under the system of measuring performance it is possible for the TOC to have a few bad weeks and not be in breach of contract, but if it continues in that way, it will, under the terms of the franchise, eventually end up in breach of contract and be vulnerable to serious consequences.

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, does the noble Earl agree that it is not just the salary that matters with a job; job satisfaction involves all sorts of other factors such as being respected by your employer, being given decent working hours, being able to expect to work on certain days and not others, and always having something to anticipate that is good? This, I am afraid, is where London Midland has fallen down, and is why it is not retaining its drivers. Can anything be done to encourage it to be good to its workforce?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Countess is absolutely right. What actually encourages London Midland to sort this problem out are the provisions of the franchise that contain the necessary penalties.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, does the noble Earl share the pleasure and delight that I certainly do in the knowledge that his grandfather presided over a wonderful Labour Government, who in 1948 nationalised the railways? Does he agree that in terms of managing the railways, that Labour Government were a huge improvement on this Conservative Government?

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

I am sure that the whole House will not be surprised to hear that I am very pleased at my grandfather’s achievements. However, there is a difficulty in having one nationalised industry: it is very difficult to determine the appropriate salary for a train driver when you have only one employer. We have several employers of train drivers and our experience is that train drivers are finding out who is the best employer, either in terms of salary or, as pointed out by the noble Countess, in relation to other terms and conditions.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, do the Government have enough staff in the Department for Transport to micromanage all these franchises, to ensure that each driver is paid the right amount and that there are enough drivers, and then to impose the penalties if they fail? After the west coast main line franchise, possibly it should be recruiting another 50% of its civil servants.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I assure the House that my department does not have enough staff to micromanage the franchise. We have no intention of doing that. We receive reports on the cancellations but we do not need to micromanage.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

Is my noble friend not concerned that the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, may be suffering from a failing memory if he thinks that the days of nationalised British Rail were better than what we have today?

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend is quite right. As all noble Lords know, since the railways were privatised, we have seen a huge increase in passenger use and freight use.

Arrangement of Business

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Tuesday 30th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, because the Question for Short Debate, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, will now be taken as last business, the time limit for the debate becomes 90 minutes, rather than 60. Speeches should therefore be limited to nine minutes, except for the speech of the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, and that of the Minister, which remain limited to 10 minutes and 12 minutes respectively.

West Coast Main Line

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Monday 29th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I would like to repeat the Statement made by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport in another place. The Statement is as follows:

“Mr Speaker, with permission I would like to make a Statement on the progress we are making to put right arrangements for the west coast main line and rail franchising.

First, I will update the House on the Laidlaw inquiry. Secondly, I will explain how we will ensure not only continuity of service on the west coast line after 9 December but an enhanced service.

On 3 October I announced the cancellation of the competition to run the intercity west coast franchise because of the discovery of unacceptable flaws in the procurement process run by the Department for Transport. I made it clear at the time, and do so again today, that this was a very regrettable decision prompted by mistakes that should never have happened. I also launched two independent inquiries, one of which has reported its interim findings to me and which I am today delivering to the House.

I asked the first inquiry, led by Centrica chief executive Sam Laidlaw, to look into what happened and why with the aim of establishing the lessons to be learnt. I also asked the second review, led by Eurostar chairman Richard Brown, to focus on any lessons to be learnt for the future rail franchising programme. I promised that both would conduct their investigations thoroughly, independently and urgently.

Given the public interest in this matter, the Laidlaw inquiry was asked to deliver an interim report to me by 26 October, and a final report by the end of November. I am grateful to the inquiry for meeting this first deadline, and working tirelessly to meet the second. I stress that today’s findings are precisely that—an interim report. There is more work to do. These findings are clearly a first stage. As Mr Laidlaw explains, they set out what went wrong, and from that basis he will now carry out further investigations into why this happened. From the start, my aim in dealing with this situation has been to be open and come forward with information for the House at the earliest opportunity. It is in that spirit that I make this Statement today. In the interests of complete transparency, I am publishing this interim report, with its provisional findings, and placing copies of it in the Libraries of both Houses.

To be blunt, these initial findings make uncomfortable reading, but they provide a necessary and welcome further step in sorting this out. The Government will need to see the full and finished report before they can comment in detail on any conclusions. This is crucial because of the independent nature of the Laidlaw inquiry and the need for the Government not to prejudge its eventual findings. But it is clear that the inquiry has identified a number of issues which confirm that my decision to cancel the franchise competition was necessary. These include a lack of transparency in the bidding process; the fact that published guidance was not complied with when bids were being processed; inconsistencies in the treatment of bidders; and confirmation of technical flaws in the model used to calculate the amount of risk capital that bidders were asked to provide to guard against the risk of default.

The Laidlaw inquiry also mentions factors,

‘that appear to have caused or contributed to the issues raised’.

We will look at these with interest and care, although once again we will need to see the final report before we can comment further.

Secondly, I would like to update the House on the progress we are making to ensure continuity of service on the west coast main line once the current franchise expires on 9 December. As I have said previously, we will ensure that passengers continue to be served by the same trains, with the same front-line staff, the same services, using the same tickets and, I am pleased to say, enhanced future timetables.

The department is making good in its discussions with Virgin on how it will operate the line for a short period of up to 14 months while a competition is run for an interim agreement. We are discussing its proposals for improved services over this period and an enhanced compensation scheme for delayed passengers. In dealing with this my department has been frank and open about its mistakes and is absolutely determined to find out exactly what happened. In the mean time, we will keep delivering for passengers and continue with the unprecedented levels of investment in trains, stations and railway lines. Combined with our decision to limit train fare rises to an average of inflation plus 1%, instead of RPI plus 3%, for the next three years, this demonstrates this Government’s total commitment to Britain’s railways”.

I commend this Statement to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his response—

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Earl Attlee]

—although it was, not surprisingly, a little bit aggressive. However, I would have done much the same if our positions had been reversed. I agree that it is not enjoyable to have to report such serious problems to the House. However, when answering questions on this issue I have aligned myself closely with my department and I have expressed confidence in all the officials who have briefed me. I still have confidence in all the department’s officials who brief me.

The noble Lord asked about the issue of pressing on with the franchising process when there was a possibility of something being wrong. We know that serious errors were made, and this interim report spells these out. The reasons why this happened and why the department pressed on regardless will be addressed in the full reports. However, in August, officials had assured the then Ministers that the department’s process had been robust.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, also asked me about the roles of Ministers. Before 12 September, my right honourable friend was advised by officials that potential concerns about two aspects of the franchise process had been discovered, but at that stage it was not clear that these would have made any difference to the outcome of the competition. He was advised that the right course was to continue to prepare the defence to the legal challenge. He asked that further investigations be conducted. In the later stages, from 24 September, this work was assisted by PricewaterhouseCoopers. On Tuesday 2 October, he was advised that the flaws were so significant that the competition would have to be cancelled, and he announced this on that very night.

The noble Lord also talked about delay to the whole franchising process. We will have to wait until we receive the Brown report to see what it means for franchising as a whole—and of course we will get that at the end of the year. He asked about liability as regards the various bidders in the franchising process. He would not expect me to comment on any claims for compensation.

The noble Lord’s initial point was that Brown and Laidlaw are compromised by being non-executive members of the departmental board. Sam Laidlaw has outstanding credentials to lead this review. He is a very senior business leader with a deep understanding of how big organisations work. He is the lead non-executive director across government on procurement and is familiar with the issues surrounding public procurement. As lead non-executive board member for the DfT, he has a thorough knowledge of how the department works, while remaining independent of it. The Department for Transport board was not responsible for approving the award of the intercity west coast franchise competition, and the department’s governance procedures for major contract awards did not require the board to be consulted. I refer noble Lords to paragraph 2.2 of the interim report, which adds a little more.

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, I am not going to join the chorus of criticism. That is water under the bridge, the situation is going to cost a lot of money, and it may take a long time to resolve.

I have some experience of models, how complex they are, and how very few people actually understand what is inside them. You virtually have to have a degree in econometrics to understand them, and to some extent it is in the interests of the consultants that it should be so, because it keeps them in work. The whole issue of subordinated loans, which is connected with long franchises, means that you are asking the banks to put up a lot of money into the very distant future. We know that the banks are risk-averse and a new method must be found of covering this liability, or else it will bring all long franchises down.

I would like an assurance from the Minister that all the stalled franchises will continue good housekeeping, small investment schemes, support for community rail trusts, and all those things in the time before a new franchise procedure is launched. I warn him that it is going to take a long time, possibly two or three years, to get a viable scheme going.

Is it not better, rather than having very long franchises, to build into the franchise process a reward for delivery of excellent service, whereby each year you get something off the next bid? If you have five good years and then rebid, you may get a 5% advantage over any other bidders. That would underwrite continuity, which is appreciated by the staff and the customers.

I have one final question: will the noble Earl give attention to the large-scale orders that are imminent from rolling-stock companies? I am talking about big money. These will not go ahead unless the department gives some reassurance to the rolling-stock companies that the franchises they let are going to use the rolling stock. That is extremely important, particularly for lots of jobs in Derby and Preston.

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend Lord Bradshaw made some important points but, of course, for answers to many of them we will have to wait to see what the Brown report says. However, I agree that we need to be careful to keep what is good about the current franchising system. At this stage, in advance of the report, I would not want to comment on how long it will take to get the franchising system running again. Rolling stock is of course a separate issue from the franchising problems, but he makes an important point and I will draw it to the attention of my right honourable friend the Minister of State.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

My Lords, I have stated to the noble Earl previously that every week when I come down here I travel on the Virgin Pendolino and travel home the same way. I hope that the officials in his department will take into consideration that the dedicated staff who work for the company feel insecure about what is happening. They had some relief when they were told that they had extra time—14 months—but that is not all that long when you are dependent on a livelihood. To illustrate to the noble Earl how dedicated these men and women are, perhaps he remembers the flooding in Cumbria that caused subsidence. At very short notice, these good people were able to get every passenger off at Preston and bus them beyond Carlisle to make sure that they continued their journey north. That is the kind of dedicated people the staff are. We often talk in this House about people raising families and working, particularly women. Many of those who work for Virgin are young women raising families. They arrange childcare so that they can get up early in the morning to carry out their work and ensure that their families are looked after. I ask that all concerned bear in mind that there is a dedicated workforce who are entitled to consideration.

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord makes an important point about the human element of this problem. I take this opportunity to make it quite clear that the front-line staff will not be adversely affected. It will be the same staff running the trains and the same rolling stock. In the short term, passengers will not notice any difference. As I said in the Statement, we may even be able to enhance the service. However, it is important to remember that there is a human element to this problem.

[Lord Snape]

My Lords, will the Minister accept some sympathy from me for having to deliver that preprepared Statement? It referred to the Government having been “frank and open” about this shambles, as my noble friend on the Front Bench rightly called it. Does the Minister accept that the Government have behaved in no such way and that, up to hours before the revelations emerged as a result of the proposals for judicial review, the previous Secretary of State and her successor were assuring us all that the contract was robust and that no problems were foreseen?

I wish to press the noble Earl on the question of cost, to which my noble friend on the Front Bench referred. None of us for a moment believes that the costs will be confined to the £40 million of the existing franchise. Has the department, for example, received any communication from FirstGroup, which was previously awarded this franchise and whose share price has declined by 20% since the emergence of the fact that the system was flawed? How much does the Minister estimate this whole thing is going to cost the British taxpayer? I repeat the noble Lord’s plea that in future the front-line staff who have to operate the west coast main line be kept fully informed about what is happening.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, as for the noble Lord’s last point, the staff on the west coast main line are of course the responsibility of Virgin. I assure the House that I have repeated many political Statements, and I have done so this time again without the opportunity of editing it because I am just repeating a Statement made by my right honourable friend in another place. As to the noble Lord’s substantive point about when my right honourable friend knew that there was a problem, as soon as he was told that the problem could have affected the outcome he cancelled the award of the contract immediately.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, I endorse what the Minister has just said. I have no detailed knowledge of these matters, and of course I share the dismay about the very serious difficulties that have emerged. However, I ask the noble Lord, Lord Davies, for example, speaking from the opposition Front Bench as he has just done, to take a little care. What would the reaction of the then Government have been if all this had happened, say, three years ago, when they were still in office? I dare say we would have had a whole lot of dissembling, lack of transparency and flannel and not the forthright and straightforward replies which Ministers have given on this occasion and for which I believe they are to be commended. Of course it is a deeply unfortunate situation but I think that Ministers have acted as best as they can and that they are to be commended for their transparency and forthrightness on this occasion.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I suspect that the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, is thinking: there but for the grace of God go I. In defence of the noble Lord, he had to come to this House and explain the problems at HMRC, which, frankly, I think he did.

[Lord Low of Dalston]

My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, who spoke earlier, I do not wish to join in any hue and cry, but does the noble Earl not agree that what has happened calls into question the wisdom of the Government’s approach to downsizing the Civil Service as a response to the economic problems that the country faces? Does he not agree that this situation might suggest that they have been going too far and too fast in this? Is it not the case that what has happened here strikes a body blow at the credibility of government processes? When next we get a statement from any department that says that it has employed the most robust processes it is possible to conceive of, who is going to believe that?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, as Sam Laidlaw has stated, these are initial views about potential contributory factors that he will continue to investigate in advance of his final report. Laidlaw has chosen not to criticise any particular individual or groups of people. Tackling the deficit and getting the public finances in order require the Government to tighten their belt like any other organisation. In doing its bit, my department made careful and well considered reductions in its headcount that were designed to save the public money while continuing to deliver on all its priorities, including rail franchises.

[Lord Clark of Windermere]

My Lords, I raise my point this evening in the spirit of making sure that we learn the lessons of this very serious exercise. Today, the Minister has very clearly laid out the position. He described the situation from the report as very serious. He talked about things such as technical flaws in the bids and the lack of transparency. However, these revelations contrast markedly with what we were told merely a few months ago. My question to the Minister is simply this: why were Ministers not alert to these very serious flaws in the bid, and can Sam Laidlaw, in his investigation, look at this specific aspect and report on the person who chairs the board at the Department for Transport?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord talked about lessons learnt. As I said, the next stage of the Laidlaw report will look at why the errors occurred and at the lessons to be learnt. The interim report is not very long and should be available in the Library. I urge noble Lords to read all of it. I read it just this afternoon, so it is not a long report. The noble Lord asked me a point-blank question. Perhaps the answer is that officials did not realise that the flaw existed or how serious it was.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

My Lords, I have no inhibitions at all about making strong criticism of what happened over this franchise. I think it has been a complete and utter disgrace and a fiasco. Indeed, when we consider the humiliating spectacle of the Government having to go cap in hand to the very franchisee who was rejected to ask it to continue running the railway, it is clear that we have got into a very serious situation indeed. Quite frankly, I believe that this Statement smacks of complacency about the whole matter. Let us just have a look at what the interim inquiry says about it. Sam Laidlaw refers to a lack of transparency in the bidding process and the fact that published guidance was not complied with when bids were being processed. Why not? Finally, he talks of inconsistencies in the treatment of bidders, and that is the most serious of all because it smacks of corruption somewhere in the department. I am sorry to have to say it but it has to be said in the light of that particular sentence. I ask the noble Earl whether the department is now shown to be not fit for purpose. Is there going to be a root-and-branch reorganisation of the department to see that this sort of thing never happens again in relation to railways or, indeed, any other franchises in which the department might be involved?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, talked about strong criticism and of course it is justified. Ministers are not denying that the problem is serious. The Virgin bid was not rejected; it fell victim to a better bid from FirstGroup. The noble Lord talked about inconsistency in the treatment of bids. There is no evidence of bad faith on the part of officials. As we understand it, it was purely an error. Finally, he talked about reorganisation of the department. We will have to wait to see what Sam Laidlaw says about the reasons and the lessons learnt. I will not promise that we will reorganise the department but I assure the House that we will make sure that this problem does not arise again.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

The noble Earl said that there was nothing wrong with the process, but it was shown that everything was wrong with the process. In fact, Virgin went to the High Court because it believed that the process was wrong. Quite frankly, I believe that the noble Earl, whom I respect and like very much, is being rather complacent.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am certainly not being complacent; I am talking about a very serious problem.

Government: Cars

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Thursday 25th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hoyle]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government why the Government Car and Despatch Agency car allocated to the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills was not manufactured in the United Kingdom.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the main car allocated to the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills has recently been replaced with one manufactured in the UK. Since 17 September 2012, the Japanese-produced Toyota Prius was changed for a Toyota Avensis manufactured at the Burnaston plant in Derbyshire.

[Lord Hoyle]

I welcome that news because—and I think the Minister will agree—the department should act as a shop window for our highly successful British motor industry. I believe that the news will be welcomed all around this House.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his comments. The government ministerial car fleet is about 50% British and 50% foreign. However, I will add a note of caution, because the supply chain for the motor industry is international now. For instance, the BMW Hams Hall engine plant produced 433,000 engines for BMW plants around the world.

[Lord Brabazon of Tara]

My Lords, Toyota is a leading manufacturer in this country and a great asset to British manufacturing. It makes a great many cars here and, better still, exports a great many of them. Does it really matter if the particular model concerned is not made here, when Toyota contributes so much to this country?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, my noble friend makes an extremely good point.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, carrying this over to other areas of manufacturing, does the Minister agree that if we do not buy something in this country, other people will not buy it? This is particularly pertinent to defence contracts. In the White Paper, we said we would try to sell lots of things abroad; but no one will buy stuff if you do not buy it yourself. It is rather important that we buy things that we make here.

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord is absolutely brilliant at asking questions that are wide of the Question on the Order Paper.

[Lord Wright of Richmond]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that, when I was in the Diplomatic Service, there was a requirement that ambassadors and heads of mission abroad should use British cars? I had great difficulty in getting a definition out of the Department of Trade and Industry as to exactly what a British car was.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the reason for that was in one of the very first answers I gave—that the motor industry supply chain is very much international. Another point to remember about government procurement is that we are bound by the European procurement rules, which restrict our course of action. However, we are 50:50 British and foreign in the fleet.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, an undoubtedly British car is the London taxi, which is symbolic of everything London stands for in terms of transport. The company Manganese Bronze is in very serious trouble, to the extent that 400 taxis have been withdrawn because of steering difficulties and the firm is not able to manufacture any others. This is extremely serious as far as the London taxi service is concerned, which is of course valued by very large numbers of people. Has the department begun thinking about the answers to those problems?

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord is even more ingenious than the noble Lord, Lord West. He knows perfectly well that the specifications for London taxis, which are very peculiar, are determined by the mayor’s office.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, the change is welcome, but would the Minister speculate on what would be the response in France, for example, which is subject to the same EU rules, if government entities were not to buy vehicles wholly manufactured in France?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the important thing is that we adhere to the rules.

[Lord Addington]

My Lords, is it not a point of pride that this Government are using far fewer cars and that our Ministers are now travelling on public transport, and thus might be in a better position to make decisions about the future of that transport?

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend makes an important point. I do not even use public transport to get to the Department of Transport. I walk; it takes me 10 minutes exactly. The important thing is that we have reduced the size of the ministerial car fleet from about 200 to 92.

[Lord Bates]

Will not my noble friend consider increasing the number of cars available to the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, so that it can travel widely communicating the news that we have had the fastest growth in GDP, by 1%, over the past quarter and that employment is at a record level in this country?

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend is ingenious as well. Government cars are issued to Ministers when they are needed.

[Viscount Simon]

My Lords, following the question from my noble friend Lord Davies of Oldham, and, again, I fear, being slightly wide of the Question on the Order Paper, is the noble Earl aware that the company that manufactures black cabs has ceased trading and that the companies that will replace them are, I believe, based in Germany?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am aware of the difficulties of Manganese Bronze and the cabs, but that is of course a little wide of the Question on the Order Paper.

Disabled People: Blue Badge Scheme

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Thursday 25th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harrison]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the results of the consultation on the workings of the blue badge scheme for the disabled.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the consultation on the personal independence payment and eligibility for a blue badge closed just three weeks ago. The responses are currently being read and analysed. This is an important decision to make and Ministers will take the time needed to ensure that all the relevant issues are taken into consideration. The Government will announce their decision shortly and will publish a summary of the responses.

[Lord Harrison]

My Lords, given that general practitioners know best the mobility and medical capabilities of current blue badge holders, was it not a bureaucratic and costly folly to vest within overpressed and understaffed local authorities the sensitive task of assessing eligibility for a blue badge, especially when that task was so often assigned to box-ticking junior staff with absolutely no medical knowledge? When will this Government respond to this semi-detached Prime Minister and do something about those who deserve blue badges getting them?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the only thing I agree with the noble Lord on is his point about box-ticking. Applicants’ GPs act as patients’ advocates and are not always best placed to assess mobility or to advise on badge eligibility. In 2008, the Transport Select Committee reported that using an applicant’s own GP to assess eligibility,

“is likely to produce a bias in favour of approving the application”.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, surely the GP is best placed to make that judgment?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we think it is better to have an independent assessment.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

My Lords, why are GPs considered to be qualified to decide on just about everything else on commissioning but not on this?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the policy is to have independent assessment to avoid putting the GP in an invidious position.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

Is it the case that the ministry took the view that it could not rely upon the integrity and the professional competence of the practitioner, and was there any evidence to support that prejudice?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, disabled people’s groups, such as the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee, agree that greater use of independent mobility assessments is needed to determine eligibility fairly and robustly.

[Lord Richard]

My Lords, will the independent assessors be medically qualified?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, independent health professionals such as physiotherapists and occupational therapists are often best placed to assess eligibility due to their professional knowledge of mobility.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

My Lords, is it not a fact that in the central London boroughs, where disability badges are slightly more restricted and you must have an additional badge from the local borough, the system has been working very well? People from the borough also rely on a report from a GP. Does the Minister not think that the more serious problem is abuse of the blue badges, whereby very fit people are using them when they have nothing to do with a disabled person?

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend makes a very good point. There is nothing to prevent an applicant producing evidence from his or her GP outlining their condition. My noble friend is quite right to identify the abuse, which is a big problem. However, the blue badge improvement service will greatly assist in reducing the abuse.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, if there is a reduction in the number of badges given out as a result of the consultation, will those who lose their badges be eligible for an appeal process and will that not add a further cost to the whole system?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, there is an appeal process—I have unfortunately forgotten exactly what it is, but I shall write to the noble Lord. It is important to understand that the number of blue badges issued has gone up and up. There are already 2.5 million badges. As you increase the number of blue badges, you can get into a position where you dilute the benefits.

[Lord Dubs]

My Lords, in assessing the results of the consultation, will the Minister bear in mind that there are sometimes quite confusing differences in the operation of the scheme for disabled drivers from one London borough to another? If one lives in a particular borough and uses a blue badge only there, it is easy, but if one goes into the central London boroughs—Kensington, Westminster and Camden—the rules are different and it is extremely confusing for people because they do not know what the rules are and they are not clearly stated anywhere. The best thing might be if all the boroughs operated in the same way.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I shall draw the noble Lord’s points to the attention of my honourable friend Mr Norman Baker.

[Baroness Brinton]

My Lords, given the debate that has gone on about the new process, I have just been through it and have found it to be very smooth and very fast. It is extremely helpful and the advice from various medics was useful. The noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, asked about abuse of disabled bays. What can the Government do to encourage the reduction of abuse? In France, the supermarket chain, E.Leclerc, has a notice under wheelchair signs that says, “You take my space; you take my handicap”.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I should make it clear that the blue badge scheme has no effect off road on private land. However, supermarkets are bound by the provisions of the Equality Act and need to provide disabled parking bays. I am quite confident that a supermarket will take into consideration that a blue badge is on display and I would imagine that most responsible supermarkets would do their best to avoid abuse of disabled parking spaces because it is a morally bankrupt thing to do.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

The Minister has adduced two reasons for why there may be improvements to the blue badge scheme. The first is that it may reduce fraud, which we would all welcome. The second, which I think much of the House would be very doubtful about, is that doctors have been too lenient in the past and that it is best if they are kept at some distance from the issue. In that case, what estimate has the department made of the reduction that is likely to occur in the number of blue badges issued?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, in future, the number of blue badges to be issued will depend on the results of the consultation and on what decision Ministers make. Our problem is that the passported benefit is from the personal independence payment rather than the higher rate mobility component of the disability living allowance. That is going to be a different system. It is bound to produce a variation but we do not know exactly what that variation will be. Another difficulty is that the data sets are quite poor, so it is difficult to assess what the outcome will be.

Isles of Scilly: Helicopter Services

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Wednesday 24th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure a lifeline passenger service to the Isles of Scilly following the closure of the helicopter service on 1 November 2012.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Isles of Scilly Steamship Company, which operates the ferry and fixed-wing services, has already announced plans to increase those services to meet some of the passenger demand following the closure of the helicopter service. My honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Mr Norman Baker, has recently met, and is due to meet again, delegations including the Isles of Scilly Council to discuss transportation to and from the Isles of Scilly.

[Lord Berkeley]

I am grateful to the Minister for that reply because it marks some progress, even if the Isles of Scilly Steamship Company is now a monopoly supplier of transport services. Is he aware that during the five months between now and the beginning of next April, there will be only a small fixed-wing service of aeroplanes that are susceptible to wind and fog— for example, the service did not run yesterday? If the evidence of last winter is taken into account, the service would not run for 22 days over five months. With a population of around 2,000 people earning the fourth lowest wages in the UK and a reliance on tourism, those who use the aeroplane service have to pay £140 return. Does the noble Earl agree that in Scotland, most of the islands have both air and ferry services as lifeline services, and the fare for the equivalent distance is £25 return? Will the Government now look at a lifeline service for the Scilly Isles so as to take this forward and make the service comparable with that in Scotland?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord used the word “monopoly”, which implies that there can be only one operator. It is a free market and other operators can come in. We need to see how the market develops. The noble Lord also talked about the “lifeline”, which is a term generally used to describe vital transport connections between mainland and island communities. However, it carries no formal or legal status. The Government recognise that many people regard maritime passenger and freight services to the Isles of Scilly as a lifeline, and that is why we have said that we are committed to ensuring that these continue.

[Lord Cameron of Dillington]

My Lords, are the Government aware that the cost of transport to the Isles of Scilly is four times more expensive than that from the mainland to the Scottish islands over an equivalent distance? As a result, businesses and the tourist industry in the Scilly Isles are suffering badly and are in rapid decline when compared with those industries in the Scottish islands. The total absence of a ferry service, as already mentioned, between November and March means that running a business or even leading a normal life is becoming a pretty precarious enterprise in the Scilly Isles.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I have read carefully the report produced by the Council of the Isles of Scilly comparing transport services to the islands with those of Scotland. It is a well written report, but I would point out that the situation in Scotland is different because it involves much more complicated and wide-ranging services that cannot be operated on a commercial basis. At the moment, the service to the Isles of Scilly is operated on a commercial basis.

[Baroness Trumpington]

Perhaps I might ask the Minister whether the air ambulance service will operate in that area when the ordinary air service ceases.

[Earl Attlee]

As ever, my noble friend asks a very good question. There is an air ambulance service that can deal with medical emergencies. In addition, there is the search and rescue service from the Royal Naval Air Station at Culdrose.

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, following up the point made by my noble friend Lady Trumpington about medical services, these are very important because one of the key issues that has been identified is that fixed-wing services cannot substitute for the helicopter service in terms of speed or indeed handling individuals. I understand that the cost of RNAS Culdrose offering that service is £14,000 per return trip. What provision will be made over this winter for medical emergencies, not just for individuals but for medical supplies and blood samples, so that the islands are not isolated in this key way?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the problem we face is that we have lost the helicopter service to the Isles of Scilly for the time being. I understand that the Isles of Scilly Steamship Company, which operates a fixed-wing air service, has now made arrangements with the local primary care trust to take over some of the transportation of patients and medical supplies, including blood products and samples, which were previously carried by helicopter, having secured the appropriate CAA licences. Noble Lords will recall that the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, identified that there were only a few days in the year when helicopter services could go to the Isles of Scilly but fixed-wing aircraft could not.

[Lord Greenway]

My Lords, is it not the case that the Isles of Scilly Steamship Company also operates two cargo vessels, one of which sails three times a week during the winter, and which carries a few passengers?

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord is correct. However, we must also understand that the problems of transport services to the Isles of Scilly make for increased costs for the people living on the islands, so we need a solution that is not too expensive but which meets the needs of the people on the islands.

[Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde]

My Lords, I was pleased to hear that the Minister has read the comparative study produced by the Council of the Isles of Scilly, which demonstrates very clearly—and factually—just how poorly the Isles of Scilly compare with the islands of Scotland. The Minister has just said that they are different. They are different because we recognise in Scotland that these services are not commercially viable and therefore the Government pay, but the Isles of Scilly is a commercial arrangement. Will the Minister consider changing the designation for the Isles of Scilly to give them the same status as that of the islands of Scotland?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we could make a public service obligation if the market failed. The market has not yet failed. In addition, there would have to be a competitive bidding process. We do not want to interfere at this point because we want to see whether there will be a commercial solution to the problem.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the Minister has given some encouraging news about the increase in services, but he will appreciate that the House is still greatly exercised about communication with the Scilly Isles, particularly during winter. If we find that the Scilly Isles are effectively cut off for a number of days in winter, I hope that the Minister will return to this issue and take some action.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I assure the House that my honourable friend Mr Norman Baker takes these matters very seriously and is on the case.

Civil Aviation Bill

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Wednesday 24th October 2012 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Earl Attlee]

That the amendments for the Report stage be marshalled and considered in the following order:

Clauses 1 to 13, Schedule 1, Clauses 14 to 30, Schedule 2, Clauses 31 to 47, Schedule 3, Clauses 48 and 49, Schedule 4, Clauses 50 to 55, Schedule 5, Clauses 56 to 59, Schedule 6, Clauses 60 to 72, Schedule 7, Clauses 73 to 76, Schedules 8, 9 and 10, Clauses 77 and 78, Schedule 11, Clauses 79 to 82, Schedule 12, Clauses 83 to 90, Schedule 13, Clauses 91 to 99, Schedule 14, Clauses 100 to 112.

Motion agreed.

Bus Industry

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Thursday 18th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Bradshaw for tabling this debate. The noble Lord, Lord Snape, asked why there is a 10-minute Back-Bench speaking limit. That was a decision of the Procedure Committee approved by your Lordships’ House. It is a shame that there are not more contributors, but perhaps on a Thursday afternoon we can understand why.

[Lord Snape]

Will the Minister then use his enormous influence to see that when there is next a 90-minute debate and there are only a few of us, we can take 90 minutes instead of gabbling through everything in 10?

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I can assure the House that noble Lords have been challenging enough in the debate so far without it being extended.

Buses play a vital role in our economy. Sixty-three per cent of all public transport trips are made on local buses, a total of 2.3 billion bus journeys in 2010-11. The bus is essential for many people to get to work and education and to visit doctors and hospitals. For many, the bus is a lifeline and, without it, they would not be able to socialise. More than half of those who rely on the bus outside London do not have access to a car.

As many noble Lords have pointed out, customer satisfaction with their bus journeys is high, with 85% of passengers being satisfied with their service. The under-21s make up a third of bus passengers and use among the over-60s is increasing as a result of the national concessionary pass. A recent study by the University of Leeds has reinforced the importance of buses to a healthy and growing economy. I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Snape, for his positive comments about the bus industry.

The Government remain committed to improving bus services, and expenditure on buses reflects this. This year, the Government will spend around £1 billion on the concessionary travel entitlement and £350 million in direct subsidy to bus operators in England. Another £200 million has been allocated to funding major bus projects in the past year, including improvement schemes in Bristol and Manchester.

In March, we provided £70 million through the better bus area fund to deliver improvements in 24 local authorities, £31 million to invest in low-carbon buses and the second instalment of a £20 million package to support community transport. Many bus improvement schemes have also been funded as part of the Government’s £600 million local sustainable transport fund. All this funding demonstrates how important the Government consider bus services to be.

However, the Government also recognise that improvements can and must be made, so earlier this year they outlined their plans for buses in a document entitled, Green Light for Better Buses. The proposals include reforming bus subsidy, improving competition, improving local authority capability in tendering, incentivising partnership working and multi-operator ticketing, and making bus information and ticketing easier to access for all, particularly young people. Here, I pay tribute to the work of my honourable friend Mr Norman Baker, a Minister who is absolutely committed to public transport.

There is no doubt that we are operating in challenging economic times, and this is no different for bus operators. The Government want to ensure that the bus market is still attractive to operators, both large and small, by ensuring that funding is allocated in the fairest way while giving the best value for money to taxpayers. However, we recognise the problems that are experienced by smaller operators.

The Government have recently launched a consultation on the future of the bus service operators’ grant, which is paid to bus operators—I shall say more about this in a moment. The grant is currently paid direct to bus operators in a fairly blunt and untargeted way that is related to fuel consumption. Some local authorities have told us that they can make the bus subsidy deliver better value for money by working in partnership with their bus operators to grow the bus market. That is what the better bus areas are intended to do, and the available top-up fund will give them an additional incentive to innovate.

The better bus area policy relies strongly on partnership with commercial bus operators rather than on contractual relationships. Thus, better bus areas are quite distinct from quality contract schemes where all bus services would be tendered and the bus service operators’ grant automatically devolved to local authorities. The characteristics of local bus markets vary, so different solutions will be appropriate in different local areas. The Government believe that it is for local authorities to decide which route they should pursue.

The Government are committed to protecting the national bus travel concession, which is of huge benefit to around 11 million people, allowing free off-peak travel anywhere in England. This generous concession provides older and disabled people with greater freedom, independence and a lifeline to their community. It enables access to facilities in and beyond their local area and helps these people to keep in touch with family and friends. It can also bring benefits to the wider economy.

There is no statutory obligation to provide discounted-price travel to young people but many commercial and publicly funded reductions are available. I have been encouraged to see that in Norfolk, prompted by the council’s successful bid to the better bus area fund last year, several local bus operators are working in partnership with the county council to introduce a reduced bus fare for 16 to 19 year-olds. I welcome this initiative and hope to see more like it.

I will try to answer as many questions as possible. Obviously, I will write where I am unable to do so. Both the noble Lord, Lord Snape, and my noble friend Lord Bradshaw asked me about the Traffic Management Act. Local councils and TfL already have powers to enforce moving traffic conventions, including bus lanes, cycle lanes, yellow box junctions, “no U-turns” and “no entry” signs, et cetera. Authorities outside London that have taken civil enforcement powers can enforce moving traffic conventions in bus lanes. Over 80% of authorities already have these powers. The Government support the remainder taking those powers on.

We recognise that there is a strong desire from some local authorities outside London to have all the extra powers in Part 6 of the Traffic Management Act to enforce all types of moving traffic offences, as those in London do. We are considering this, but Ministers want to be sure of the traffic benefits of extending these powers outside London and have therefore written to Nottingham and Sheffield as part of the city deals process, proposing some projects to analyse the traffic benefits of implanting Part 6 in these regions.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked about funding a quality contract through a better bus area. Areas intending to pursue a quality contract scheme may also choose to pursue a better bus area. However, we would need to understand how this would work, both with and without a quality contract. Moreover, BBAs are strongly based on a consensual approach with bus operators. Again, we need to understand how this would work in a quality contract area where the bus operators could easily change. This is a consultation and we are interested to know whether and how this could work.

My noble friend Lord Bradshaw talked about the cost of bus fares and suggested that they are too high and rising. Overall, fares were the same level in March 2011 as in March 2010, with a 2% decrease in non-metropolitan areas and increases of 0.9% in metropolitan areas and 1.4% in London. Across the country, fares can be quite variable, with a wide range of ticket types.

The noble Lord, Lord Snape, talked about the problems of young people and high fares. Of course, bus fares can be a high proportion of a young person’s income. The noble Lord talked about the problems of job hunting and suggested that we needed a simpler process for young unemployed people to claim their travel expenses. The Department for Work and Pensions provides a range of support with travel costs for the unemployed through Jobcentre Plus, which is best placed to decide who needs support with transport costs.

My noble friend Lord Bradshaw asked what was being done to reduce antisocial behaviour on public transport. I recently experienced an extremely distressing incident on a train, so I know how much of a problem this is. A wide variety of people and organisations are involved in helping to reduce antisocial behaviour and to deal with it when it occurs. These may be transport operators, local authorities, local police and PTEs, Transport for London, town centre managers, and many others. They may deliver measures in partnership with or through others, such as voluntary organisations.

The department has convened a public transport crime liaison group, chaired by my honourable friend Norman Baker, bringing together passenger representative groups, police, local authorities and operators to hear about their work on reducing crime and to share best practice. I recognise that this is a serious problem.

My noble friend Lord Bradshaw talked about the problem of increased fuel prices of 58% due to the decrease in BSOG. We are determined to bring down the deficit. BSOG must help to achieve that, and the 20% reduction did just that. We are now looking at making the remaining BSOG more efficient.

[Lord Snape]

How much has the deficit been increased or reduced by freezing fuel duty for motorists generally?

[Earl Attlee]

That is a rather wider question, and I would be delighted to write to the noble Lord on that.

My noble friend Lord Bradshaw talked about ring-fencing BSOG. It is vital that local authorities have flexibility to use funds to best effect. However, it is also important not to get turbulence in the bus market when changes take place as we reform the BSOG, so we will ring-fence BSOG for tendered buses for a transitional period.

The noble Lord, Lord Snape, asked about BSOG in rural areas. There are no plans to cut BSOG total. BSOG for tendered services will be devolved to local transport authorities. There are lots of them in rural areas, and therefore more flexibility for local authorities best to support bus services as they see fit. Commercial BSOG outside BBAs will remain the same for now, but how we apply it will be reviewed later.

My noble friend Lord Bradshaw asked how much the Competition Commission inquiry cost the taxpayer. I do not have the figure to hand, but I will write to him. He also asked about better bus area bids excluding population areas under 100,000. We have yet to issue guidance on the criteria for designating BBAs for devolved BSOG. However, we will be looking for proposals that can help to grow the economy and reduce carbon emissions. BBA 2012 was mainly aimed at large urban areas as being more able to meet the criteria.

The final point that I can address is whether there is any incentive for better bus speeds to take driver management systems, such as RIBAS, into account when bus systems are assessed. The criteria against which better bus area bids were judged included reduction in carbon emissions, which indirectly would offer a potential incentive for operators to use driver management systems such as RIBAS, given their positive impact on fuel efficiency and carbon emissions. The long-term goal of decoupling bus subsidy from fuel consumption will incentivise greater fuel efficiency within bus service operator fleets, which, in turn, should incentivise the use of driver management systems.

[Lord Bradshaw]

The Minister has several times referred to subsidy to bus operators in respect of things such as concessionary fares. That is a subsidy to the passenger; it is not a subsidy to the bus industry.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I accept my noble friend’s point.

The Government believe in buses. The vision is for a better bus with more of the attributes passengers want: more punctual, interconnected services, an even greener and more fully wheelchair-accessible fleet and the wide availability of smart ticketing. A more attractive, more competitive, greener bus network will encourage more people on to buses, create growth and cut carbon.

House adjourned at 5.04 pm.

Railways: Franchises

Earl Attlee Excerpts

Wednesday 10th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I wish to ask the Question of which my noble friend the shadow Leader of the House has given private notice.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, first, I refer to the answer that I gave the House yesterday. The Secretary of State has asked Sam Laidlaw to look into the west coast procurement process with the support of independent advice. This review is due to provide findings by the end of October and it would be premature to speculate on them. A second review will examine the implications for the wider franchising programme. Both reviews will be published reports. As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, yesterday, if there are any questions about the thoroughness and integrity of Sam Laidlaw’s inquiry, I shall be happy to debate these when his findings are made public. It is in the interests of the taxpayer that the review is conducted swiftly and thoroughly, and I have every confidence that the Laidlaw review will uncover exactly what went wrong and why.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the question asked by my noble friend Lord Adonis yesterday, to which the Minister referred, indicated that these reviews are being carried out by officials in the department that is in the middle of this debacle, and they will inevitably involve the conduct of senior officials, including probably the Permanent Secretary, and Ministers. Therefore, how can they be carried out effectively by junior Ministers? Furthermore, how can the Minister justify the point that was addressed to him in another question yesterday? Ministers received warning of flaws in the franchise process on 10 August, a month before both the Secretary of State and the Minister of State were somewhat surprisingly reallocated to departments far away from transport.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord asked how Sam Laidlaw and Richard Brown can perform their duties. The answer is that they will do so with integrity, and I am sure that the noble Lord is not suggesting that they are unable to do that. He also suggested that officials have acted in bad faith. I can assure the House that there is no evidence whatever of officials having acted in bad faith. It is a serious mistake but there is no evidence of bad faith.

[Lord Bradshaw]

Will the noble Earl think about the fact that the franchise process is probably irretrievably broken? Will he ask his right honourable friend the Secretary of State to make a bid for room in the legislative programme in the next Session of Parliament, as I believe it is inevitable that this Act and its successors will have to be reviewed?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I do not believe that the franchise process is inevitably broken, but that is a matter for Richard Brown to review. Professor David Begg has been reported in the Financial Times as saying:

“Because of this procurement failure we risk becoming far too negative and throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We can fix this, we’ve done it before”.

Wise words indeed, and the first and correct step is these two fairly quick inquiries.

[Lord Morris of Aberavon]

My Lords, is not the basic problem the division of responsibility between those who operate the coaches et cetera and those who operate the track? That is one reason why the Department for Transport has a most difficult task indeed. Is the Minister aware that when I chaired the joint inquiry into the finances and management of British Rail, rather a long time ago, not one witness ever suggested such a split? Given where we are, will the Government consider having an independent body of expertise to advise all government departments on the allocation of major contracts?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, if we need a more fundamental review of the structure of the rail industry, and in particular franchising, I am sure that the Brown review will suggest that. I redraw the House’s attention to what Professor Begg said over the weekend.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The noble Earl is deliberately avoiding answering the question that is being asked by my Front Bench, which is a question that I tried to ask yesterday. Were Theresa Villiers and Justine Greening informed by civil servants, prior to the appointment of Mr McLoughlin as Transport Secretary, of discrepancies in the calculations concerned with these bids? The answer is simply yes, they were aware, or no, they were not.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, that matter is to be determined by the Laidlaw inquiry.

[Lord Martin of Springburn]

My Lords, every Monday I use the Pendolino to come here and every Thursday I go back using it. Could I put on record that it is an excellent service? Whenever it has been late it has been because it has had to slow down for the safety of the passengers. The staff are excellent and provide a good service to everyone on that train. It would be a great worry for those who come from further north if there were uncertainty over this service.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord is one of the first to worry about the passengers. I take this opportunity to reassure all noble Lords and passengers that the service on the west coast main line will continue after 9 December.

[Baroness O'Cathain]

My Lords, in view of the fact that it has been stated that the franchise system is broken and that track and train should never have been divided, the reality is—I would like confirmation of this—that, because of the European Union, we had no option but to divide train and track.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I would not like to deny that what my noble friend has said is true.

[Lord Adonis]

My Lords, twice this afternoon, the noble Earl has cited Professor David Begg and his view that the franchise system can easily be rectified. Is the noble Earl aware that Professor David Begg is a non-executive director of First Group, the company to which his department awarded the franchise before it had to be cancelled, and that therefore he is not an entirely independent observer of these events? Does the noble Earl understand what the word “independent” means; it means that one should be apart from the matter that one is reviewing.

How can Sam Laidlaw, for whom I have the highest respect—he is an executive of great integrity—possibly be judged to be independent when he is a non-executive director of the department whose actions are the subject of an inquiry in this case, including the actions of senior civil servants and Ministers who are with him on the board? Does the noble Earl not recognise that the findings of such an inquiry will always be tainted until they are properly and independently conducted and that proper independent review cannot take place under a non-executive director of the very department that has conducted probably the single biggest failure in British public policy since the poll tax?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I answered the noble Lord’s second point yesterday. On the first point, Professor Begg chaired the Commission for Integrated Transport, which was set up by the party opposite.

[Lord Craig of Radley]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that the Treasury was involved in considering and approving the figures worked out by the Department for Transport that proved to be at fault? If so, will the review take account of the contribution that the Treasury has made to this fiasco?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am sure that the reviews will look at all causes of the fiasco. The difficulty is that the error was not obvious until officials started looking very closely at the figures in the light of the judicial review.