No. 32 (The Royal) Squadron

Theresa Villiers Excerpts

Thursday 9th June 2011 Written Statements

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)]

As the House will be aware, work was carried out by the royal household in 2008 to consider the option for procuring a small aircraft for official travel within the UK. This work concluded that such an acquisition could not at that time be justified on the grounds of value-for-money.

The royal household therefore continue to make use of chartered air services and the scheduled market and, where irreducible spare capacity exists, will continue to make use of No. 32 (The Royal) Squadron.

Night Flights (Heathrow)

Theresa Villiers Excerpts

Tuesday 24th May 2011 Westminster Hall

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Mr Hollobone. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Mary Macleod) on securing this debate on this important issue, on which she has campaigned so hard for so many years. I also congratulate her on a powerful and well-informed speech, and I welcome the contribution from my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie), who is another steadfast campaigner on behalf of his constituents on noise issues generally and night noise in particular.

My last visit to Brentford and Isleworth ironically coincided with the day on which air space was shut because of last year’s volcanic ash crisis, but I recollect my earlier visit to Grove Road primary school with Councillor Barbara Reid, who is another leading campaigner on these issues, which gave me a real and personal insight into the impact of aircraft noise in the constituency.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Isleworth said, this is a timely debate, but I must acknowledge at the outset that we have a long and detailed process ahead of us before final decisions are made on the new system of controls on night flights at Heathrow. She will appreciate that there are some questions that I simply cannot answer now because that could prejudge the outcome of the consultation. However, the debate has provided valuable input into that decision-making process, and all the points that she and my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor made today will be carefully considered as part of the consultation process and in the run-up to the decisions.

I agree that night noise is widely viewed as one of the least acceptable impacts of aviation. My hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Isleworth set out with clarity the quality-of-life concerns that many of her constituents have about night flights. I am aware that it remains a key concern for people under the flight path in areas such as the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor. I assure my hon. Friends that the local impact of aviation on communities around airports and under flight paths is important for the coalition, and that is why one of our first decisions in Government was to scrap plans for a third runway at Heathrow, and to make it clear that we oppose new runways at Gatwick and Stansted. I thank them for their kind words about my role in that decision.

In September last year, I confirmed that there would be no revival of Labour’s proposals on mixed mode. I also confirmed that the airport will start to use alternation when operating with easterly winds, which will ensure a fairer distribution of aircraft noise around the airport. As has been said today, we recently published a scoping document kicking off the debate on how to deliver a sustainable future for aviation, which harnesses the economic benefits that my hon. Friends mentioned in relation to Heathrow and aviation generally, but does so in a way that also addresses the environmental impact of aviation, including its noise.

There have been controls on night flights at Heathrow for many years, with limits on movement and noise quotas to restrict the level of noise emitted. Restrictions prevent the noisiest aircraft from landing at night, and Heathrow operates a policy of runway alternation overnight to give residents a degree of predictability on flight paths and some respite periods. Even with those restrictions, however, I appreciate that night noise continues to be a key concern for local communities, as my hon. Friends have made clear this morning.

As has been pointed out, current protections are time limited, and in the coming months the Government will need to make a decision on the regime that will replace the existing controls when they expire in October 2012. That provides an opportunity to take a fresh look at the issue and explore the scope for a more effective night noise regime. The scoping document already mentioned began an extensive process of public engagement that will ultimately culminate in a decision about a new set of rules and controls for night flights over Heathrow. During that process, we will seek evidence on how best to balance the economic benefits of night flights against the social and environmental costs that they undoubtedly impose on communities that lie under the flight path. We want to hear from the widest possible range of stakeholders about how the current arrangements are working and what elements people would like to see changed, and I welcome the comments made this morning by my hon. Friends on that issue.

My hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Isleworth referred to the recent HACAN report, which suggested that a ban on night flights at Heathrow would produce a net benefit to the economy. I recently met John Stewart from HACAN to discuss that report, and my officials will give it proper consideration alongside other representations that we receive on night noise. Such representations will help inform the debate on policy development, and we must analyse evidence on the social impact of night flights, and the health issues mentioned by my hon. Friend.

One important issue for consideration is whether it is possible to deliver a more extended period of respite from night noise. I recognise that flights that arrive between 4.30 am and 6 am tend to be the most controversial, and we need to analyse carefully any evidence on the potential benefits that are derived from such early morning arrivals, and properly explore the operational scope for change.

My hon. Friend mentioned her concerns about enforcement, and when we look at the shape of the new regime we will certainly consider arrangements for its administration, transparency and enforcement. Transparency can be a real help in such situations, and give communities that are affected by all types of noise from Heathrow the confidence that rules are being complied with. Aircraft that breach departure noise limits are fined by the airport, and the revenue is used to finance local community projects. It is important that appropriate steps are taken to ensure that the current regime is properly enforced.

[Mary Macleod]

Does the Minister think that it might be worth looking into the levels of the fines imposed? They need to be a real deterrent or else airlines will keep breaching the existing noise limits.

[Mrs Villiers]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. That issue should be included when considering the new regime, and the airport is already looking at that matter in relation to current arrangements. There may well be a case for change.

My hon. Friend made an important point about the importance of mitigation and insulation as a fall-back method for dealing with the problems of noise. BAA has recently launched a local consultation on noise mitigation schemes, which could potentially broaden the scope of the existing schemes. It is important that my hon. Friend takes part in that consultation, and I will ensure that BAA is given a copy of this debate in Hansard so that it is made aware of the concerns felt by my hon. Friend’s constituents, and their desire to see a stronger and more effective regime in terms of insulation and mitigation.

Another issue for consideration is how we create the right conditions and incentives for airlines to deliver technological improvements that will support the policy goals we wish to achieve. As I have said, the current regime already bans the noisiest planes, and UK technology and know-how plays a major role in making commercial airliners quieter and more fuel efficient. Developments such as the A380 and the Boeing 787 Dreamliner also help to mitigate the effects of noise. As well as encouraging the aviation industry to reduce noise by improving aircraft technology, the Government are working with the International Civil Aviation Organisation to seek improvements in air navigation and airspace management in order to deliver quieter approaches and climbs.

Having obtained and considered responses on the broad themes regarding night noise that are included in the scoping document, we will then develop more detailed proposals for a new night noise regime. We plan to issue a consultation document on that next spring. Carrying out that process in the most effective way possible may require a limited roll-over of the existing regime. We have not made a final decision on that, but if we decide to run the current regime beyond its expected termination date of October 2012, we will need to consider whether to use temporary movement and quota limits to maintain the trend in progressive noise reduction required under the existing regime.

My hon. Friend referred to noise action plans, which are a requirement set out in the EU environmental noise directive. Seventeen major airports have been asked to produce such plans and noise maps, and we are in the final stages of considering whether draft plans submitted by Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted, Manchester, Birmingham and East Midlands airports meet the requirements of the directive. The directive does not require a complete reassessment of airport noise policy, but the plans have been a useful exercise and have prompted airports to reassess their approach and strengthen existing measures. Such plans will, I hope, be an important tool in maintaining the pressure on airports to take action on the issues of noise, insulation and enforcement mentioned by my hon. Friend.

The plans that emerge from that process should be seen as a starting point rather than an end conclusion. They should be treated as living documents and serve as a driver of good practice and help improve performance on local noise management and mitigation. As such, they should be subject to regular review and be adaptable to changing circumstances, including the new night noise regime.

I conclude by restating the Government’s commitment to addressing the local environmental impacts of aviation, and state that we acknowledge the concerns that local communities have about night flights. We now wish to move forward to develop a better night flights regime, and explore the scope for change. It is important that we engage fully with all interests and understand all the differing views, and today’s debate has provided a valuable opportunity to bring this important subject before the House and highlight some of the key issues.

Although I cannot give my hon. Friend all the answers she needs, I view this as one of the most important issues that I will face as a Minister. I have listened with care to all the points she raised, and I will continue to listen as the debate unfolds over the months to come. I urge her, together with my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor and their respective constituents, to take part in the consultation process on which we have recently embarked. I am confident that broad engagement from my hon. Friends and their constituents will strengthen and improve the eventual outcome of this important matter.

East Coast Main Line Call Centre

Theresa Villiers Excerpts

Thursday 19th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) on securing the debate and on his speech. I completely understand the concerns of those working at the Baron house call centre. It is clear that job losses are a very harsh blow to the people concerned. That is one of the reasons why the coalition Government are working so hard to try to create the right conditions for growth and the creation of new jobs.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

In the north-east?

[Mrs Villiers]

Absolutely, in the north-east and right across the country.

Before responding to the hon. Member’s questions, I must first clarify and reiterate the relationship between the Government and the east coast main line operator. East Coast Main Line Ltd is wholly owned by Directly Operated Railways Ltd, which is, as he pointed out, owned by the Government. East Coast and DOR are companies registered under the Companies Act and operate in accordance with their own articles of association and governance. This provides a framework for the operation of the franchise as a free-standing entity in readiness for the return of the franchise to the private sector, a return that was envisaged by the previous Government as well as the current one.

[Grahame M. Morris]

I am slightly perplexed by that explanation and tempted to think of the situation with the banks. The Chancellor and the Prime Minister have told us that influence is being exerted on the state-owned banks to ensure that they lend to small and medium-sized enterprises. Is the Minister suggesting that such influence cannot be applied on this company with regard to jobs?

[Mrs Villiers]

I will explain the relationship between East Coast and the Secretary of State. The aim is for that relationship to replicate the arrangements for franchises elsewhere on the network in order to ensure that the principles of private sector operation are embraced and maintained. The reason for that approach is so that the Secretary of State is able to protect the value of the franchise and the taxpayer gets value for money when the franchise returns to the private sector.

If the Department or my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State were to start intervening in the way the operator runs East Coast, for example by overturning decisions based on commercial considerations, they might well have to answer for their decisions in front of the Public Accounts Committee. I am afraid that we do not believe it a viable option to intervene on the basis of political or non-commercial considerations, even if the Secretary of State were minded to do so.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

On the threat that the Public Accounts Committee is going to question what the Minister does, may I just say as a former Minister that it can question anything a Minister does? So, that argument is a complete nonsense.

[Mrs Villiers]

The Secretary of State is under a duty to safeguard the assets vested in the Department for Transport. The East Coast operation happens to be one of those assets, so it would be irresponsible to intervene and overturn the operator’s commercial decisions.

[Chi Onwurah]

I share the consternation and concern of my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) at the approach that the Minister has outlined. East Coast clearly does not have shareholders, as the other franchises do, but a shareholder could and, we hope, would respond to public pressure and outrage if decisions were made that went so against corporate responsibility, so it is only just that the Secretary of State should play a similar role.

[Mrs Villiers]

As I have made clear, the coalition Government’s adopted approach, which the previous Labour Government espoused, is that the franchise should be operated on a commercial basis by East Coast Ltd. It should not be the subject of political direction from the Secretary of State.

[Grahame M. Morris]

That is a crucial point if we are arguing about commercial decisions. As my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) said in an excellent speech, is there not a weight of evidence from banks, insurance companies and various private sector companies that overseas call centres are becoming less and less popular, including with customers, and that therefore any move would damage the potential to sell the franchise to the private sector? Is there not an argument that it would be beneficial to the future sale of the company to keep the call centre at least in the UK, but certainly in the north-east, where it is?

[Mrs Villiers]

The people best placed to make the decision about what is best for the East Coast operation are the specialist practitioners who run East Coast Ltd, not Ministers, not Members. Those practitioners are the best people to make the best decision about what is in the interests of fare payers and taxpayers. East Coast is confident that the new arrangements will deliver better services for passengers and far better value for money.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mrs Villiers]

As I will outline, should I get the opportunity, the options were fully explored in relation to continuing the relationship between the Baron house call centre and the East Coast operation, but it was found not to be viable in terms of value for money. If East Coast were to ignore value-for-money considerations, not only would the taxpayer suffer, but the fare payer would as well.

[Mr Jones]

Has the right hon. Lady, as a Minister, looked at the case in detail, taking into account not only the value for money for East Coast, but the cost to the taxpayer in terms of redundancy payments directly from the company and the unemployment benefit that will have to be paid in the north-east of England? Has she actually looked at the case in detail?

[Mrs Villiers]

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that East Coast has looked in detail at the viable option for the operation of the franchise.

[Mr Jones]

But have you?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Villiers]

I think that we have covered the issue with some clarity.

[Ian Mearns]

The Minister is saying that the people best placed to make those decisions are the people in charge of the commercial considerations at East Coast—the very people who have overseen the running-down of the service and the provision of a very poor service along the east coast main line.

[Mrs Villiers]

Of course I am well aware of the performance issues on the east coast route at the moment. However, I draw the hon. Gentleman’s attention to the improving performance of the train operator. The bulk of the problems that are currently being experienced are the result of problems with the infrastructure, over which East Coast has no control. I hope that in future, with the McNulty-style reforms, we will see shared incentives and improved performance from Network Rail. It is a mistake for the hon. Gentleman to blame those running the East Coast operation for the current performance problems. They bear a share of the responsibility, but the bulk of it, I am afraid, is Network Rail’s.

Turning to the facts of the case, National Express Services Ltd, or NXSL, was providing call centre services to National Express East Coast—NXEC—before its franchise terminated in 2009. NXSL is a separate commercial entity from NXEC and therefore was not taken over by Directly Operated Railways—DOR—at the handover. To ensure business continuity, contact centre services continued to be provided from Baron house to East Coast Ltd on a temporary basis, but two major problems stood in the way of this arrangement continuing on a longer term basis: first, the cost base of the Newcastle call centre; and secondly, the fact that telesales volumes have been falling rapidly across the rail network as customers switch to internet buying.

[Ian Lavery]

rose—

[Mrs Villiers]

I am going to continue for a moment.

In 2006, 11% of East Coast ticket sales were made over the telephone—today, that figure has fallen to just 1.9%—and 50% of East Coast advance ticket sales are now made via the internet.

Following the failure of the NXEC franchise, the services provided by the customer contact centre were reviewed by East Coast and by National Express. That review concluded that it was not commercially viable for the call centre to continue to provide telesales services to the new east coast operator.

[Ian Lavery]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mrs Villiers]

No, I have been very generous.

Greater flexibility was sought to enable a better response to sudden peaks in demand for call centre services—for example, as occurred over the winter. A priority for East Coast Ltd was to ensure a stable future for its contact centre services. Due diligence was conducted to establish if it was feasible for DOR to purchase NXSL and the contact centre and operate it as a subsidiary. However, this proposition was not viable because of the significant liabilities associated with the call centre. A working capital injection of approximately £2 million would have been required, plus further investment to turn around a loss-making business.

East Coast worked with National Express to see whether the Newcastle operation could be sold to a third-party expert in call centre services. Bids were received, but they faced the same purchase problems identified by East Coast and fell through when it proved impossible to agree a price. East Coast also considered whether some of the services could be provided in-house, but it is not a telephone contact centre specialist, and it concluded that it did not have the capacity or expertise to provide in-house services to the high standards that its customers wanted and that it was possible to get from a third-party supplier.

Having exhausted all possible options, East Coast concluded that the only viable way forward was to seek a new specialist supplier to provide call centre services. In parallel with National Express’s efforts to secure a third-party purchaser, East Coast initiated an Official Journal of the European Union procurement process to invite bidders to provide contact centre services. The legal requirements of that process meant that East Coast was not permitted to specify the location from which these services were to be provided. The Utilities Contracts Regulations 2006 prevent this unless a particular location is essential for the provision of the service. As the hon. Gentleman said, the outcome of the process was a contract with Intelenet UK for public telesales, group and assisted travel, ticket fulfilment and customer relations, and a further contract with Atos Origin for web support and web ticket fulfilment.

I appreciate that this process has a downside and is a real blow for those working at the National Express call centre, but there is an upside for passengers. I am advised that East Coast believes that the new contract—

Consumer Protection (Private Car Parks) Bill

Theresa Villiers Excerpts

Friday 13th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Crawley (Henry Smith) on securing a Second Reading debate on his Bill. I fully understand many people’s concerns about a minority of car park operators and the activities that have given rise to the Bill.

Aircraft Cabin Air Quality

Theresa Villiers Excerpts

Tuesday 10th May 2011 Written Statements

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)]

Cranfield university are today publishing their research into aircraft cabin air sampling on commercial aircraft in scheduled operation. A link to the report is being provided on the Department for Transport website.

The consideration of this matter by the Committee on Toxicity (COT) in 2007 provided an important opportunity to examine this issue in depth. Further scrutiny was provided by the investigation carried out by the House of Lords Science and Technology Committee.

The Department commissioned this independent research in 2008 (once tests had been completed to find suitable scientific equipment for the task) as a result of a recommendation by the COT—the first time such a study had been carried out by any country in the world.

The main conclusion of Cranfleld’s research was that there was no evidence of pollutants occurring in cabin air at levels exceeding available health and safety standards and guidelines. Levels observed in the flights that formed part of the study were comparable to those typically experienced in domestic settings.

The study monitored a total of 100 flights in five different aircraft types: Boeing 757, Airbus 319, 320 and 321 and the BAe 146. A series of air samples were taken at defined points on all flights, with additional samples taken during any “fume events” if any occurred. All flight crew, cabin crew and researchers were requested to complete a post-flight questionnaire, including questions about any fumes or smells that occurred during the flight.

The study’s objective was to analyse cabin air for volatile organic compounds, semi-volatile organic compounds, particles and carbon monoxide in normal operations during all phases of flight (e.g. climb, cruise, descent); and to detect and characterise any anomalous elevations of these elements during any “fume events” where unusual smells or similar occurrences were reported.

The European standard “Aircraft internal air quality standards, criteria and determination methods” sets safety, health and comfort limits for a number of substances, including two that were measured in the study—carbon monoxide and toluene. The study’s results indicate that concentrations of both carbon monoxide and toluene remained within these limits. In the absence of specific cabin air standards for the other pollutants measured in the research, the study referred to other standards and guidelines established, for example, for domestic (home) or occupational environments. Again, none of these standards or guidelines was exceeded.

I am grateful to Cranfield university for their rigorous and painstaking work. I am also grateful to the participating airlines which made their flight staff and management time and their aircraft available to the project. Without this invaluable practical help, the research would not have been possible.

The Department will always take the health of persons on board aircraft very seriously and I hope the publication of this thorough and independent analysis by Cranfield university will provide reassurance on this issue. We will continue to keep in close touch on all aviation health matters with the UK’s aviation regulator, the Civil Aviation Authority.

The Department will now take forward the one remaining cabin air study outstanding—the swab test research being conducted by the Institute of Occupational Medicine in Edinburgh.

When that has been finished all the completed research projects will be submitted to the Committee on Toxicity for their consideration so that the public can be assured that this matter has been thoroughly investigated.

Oral Answers to Questions

Theresa Villiers Excerpts

Thursday 5th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)]

3. What his most recent estimate is of the cost of the Crossrail project.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)]

Crossrail is at a relatively early stage of construction and the cost will be finalised over time. However, at this stage, we expect that the project will cost no more than £14.5 billion.

[Lyn Brown]

I understand that the Government have cut £1 billion from the Crossrail project, which will mean that its opening will be delayed until 2018, and that only part of the route will be open. Will the Minister confirm for me today when the whole of the planned route will be open and which bits will not be open in 2018? When will I be able to travel from Stratford to Heathrow?

[Mrs Villiers]

There will be a phased opening of services from 2018. We have lengthened the delivery time following an engineering-led review, which did a great job in reducing the cost of the project while still enabling the full benefits to be delivered according to the original scope. We shall make an announcement in due course on the timetable for the phasing in of services from 2018.

[Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)]

I declare an interest as the chair of the all-party Crossrail group. My constituents in Ilford will benefit enormously as a result of the improvements brought about because three stations in my constituency are on the Crossrail route. However, there is considerable disappointment on Redbridge council at the fact that, as a result of the cost-cutting exercise, the plans to remodel and rebuild Ilford station will not go ahead. The Minister has been invited to meet Redbridge council and visit the area. Is she likely to come to Redbridge in the near future to discuss that with my council?

[Mrs Villiers]

I pay tribute to the work that the hon. Gentleman has always done on Crossrail. The whole House will welcome confirmation that Crossrail has gone ahead; despite all the scare stories from Labour in opposition, the coalition is pressing ahead with it. We have made some savings on some stations. The plans for their redevelopment are less ambitious than they were, but they will still perform all the transport functions that were included in the plans’ original scope. Crossrail and the Department for Transport remain happy to work with local authorities to facilitate extra improvements that local authorities might want to fund and deliver to regenerate the surrounding area.

[Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con)]

4. When he plans to announce his consultation on the level of tolls on the Dartford-Thurrock crossing; and if he will make a statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)]

The south-east airports taskforce is looking at ways to improve efficiency, tackle queues and reduce delays at Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted. It is due to report in July.

[Greg Hands]

I commend the Secretary of State and the Minister for their active and robust campaign to improve the passenger experience. I think that it has improved in recent months, particularly at Heathrow, but I polled my constituents and many of them disagree. Greg Taylor said:

“Compared to Asian airports…Heathrow is a disgrace”,

and James Max complained about

“bad baggage reclaim…expensive food and parking…poor public transport”.

How can my constituents get more involved in the process of improving the experience at Heathrow and other airports?

[Mrs Villiers]

My hon. Friend is right to give credit to Heathrow for real improvements over recent years. Although terminal 5 started pretty badly, it is now a high-quality facility, and the airport will be investing in a major redevelopment of other terminals, hopefully to bring them up to the same standards. But more needs to be done, which is why we will modernise the airport regulatory framework to put passengers at the heart of the system, to give the Civil Aviation Authority the power to intervene where airports fail their passengers, and to incentivise the sort of investment in improvement, to baggage handling and terminals, for example, that his constituents clearly want. We are also introducing a new consumer panel at the CAA to improve passengers’ ability to influence the regulation of the airport.

[Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)]

8. What steps he is taking to tackle uninsured driving.

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[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

11. What consideration he has given to electrification of the Barking to Gospel Oak line.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)]

We are committed to further electrification of the railways. However, electrifying Gospel Oak to Barking is not currently a strategic priority as a number of other schemes have stronger and more developed business cases.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

May I persuade the Minister that it is a priority and that the matter is of national as well as London importance? The Barking to Gospel Oak line is the only part of the London overground network that is not electrified, therefore running trains on it with diesel power is more expensive. Secondly, because the line is on a major freight route from the east coast, there has to be a change from electrified haulage to locomotive trains on that section. It would be of great benefit, both nationally and in London, if the line were electrified. Will the Minister look at it again and will she meet the secret group of Barking to Gospel Oak line MPs who would, I am sure, support the points I am making?

[Mrs Villiers]

I am happy to meet the group, as the hon. Gentleman asks. The problem is that electrification would be expensive, because tunnels, bridges and viaducts are close to habitation, and the passenger benefits would be quite limited because the route is already running brand-new diesel trains. The performance benefits—journey-time improvements—delivered by electrification would be limited. The combination of high cost and limited passenger benefits means that the scheme is well behind others, such as the midland main line, the Great Western line and the Wales valley lines in terms of best value for taxpayers’ money.

[Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)]

May I unveil myself as a member of the secret group of North London line supporters? I look forward to the Minister meeting us. I hope she will meet us on the line itself, so that she can experience some of the problems that my constituents face—we promise not to make her wear an invisibility cloak—and so that she can understand some of the challenges we face in London because the line is not electrified. Problems with the freight line affect homes in Waltham Forest and other parts of north-east London, so I hope she will accept our invitation. We look forward to showing her our patch of north-east London.

[Mrs Villiers]

Meeting on the line itself might be a little difficult.

On the freight points, the problem is that freight trains use many parts of the network that are not electrified, which is why the majority of freight trains are diesel. There is a real possibility that even if the line were electrified, the freight trains running over it would still mainly be diesel. I am afraid that the freight issues do not address the business case problems. We have limited funds; unfortunately, we have to make difficult decisions on priorities and although I am happy to listen to representations from the group, for the moment I continue to believe that other schemes have priority because they have a better business case.

[Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con)]

12. What discussions he has had with the Mayor of London on the operation of the transport network in London during the London 2012 Olympics.

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[Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con)]

T4. Will the Minister meet me as soon as possible to discuss the reinstatement of the Maidstone East to City of London service?

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)]

I am happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss the matter. I have given the issue careful consideration, but she will know that changes to the franchise, which require extra subsidy, would be difficult to approve in the current fiscal climate.

[Margaret Beckett (Derby South) (Lab)]

Does the Secretary of State recognise that there is strong cross-party support in the House, not only for British manufacturing in general, but in particular for the sole remaining British train maker, which eagerly awaits the award of the contract for the Thameslink line? What is the timing for that?

[Mrs Villiers]

We expect to make some announcements on that contract imminently. Towards the end the year, we expect to draw towards contractual close. We will make further announcements in due course.

[Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)]

T5. In Rugby, a significant number of vehicles on our roads have been brought into the country by foreign workers, and they remain registered in their home countries. When I raised the matter with the Minister, he advised me that such vehicles can be used for six months in a 12-month period, or until the visitor takes up residence. However, there is currently no database for tracking such vehicles as they enter and leave the UK. That means that the owners of many vehicles use UK roads without contributing to the costs of maintaining them. Will the Minister consider a review to rectify that?

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[Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)]

Wycombe air park will be subject to various security requirements in connection with the Olympics. I learned this week that those arrangements will threaten the survival of Booker gliding club. Will the Minister meet me to try to find a way forward for that valued resource?

[Mrs Villiers]

I am happy to meet my hon. Friend to discuss this important issue. We are very much aware of concerns about the imposition of airspace restrictions in relation to the Olympics. We believe that restrictions are essential to maintain security for such an important event, but we are always prepared to consider refinements to see whether we can respond to concerns expressed.

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[Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that a meaningful consultation will take place with rail user groups before any of the existing rail franchises are renewed? I am thinking in particular of Southeastern, which has just had its current franchise extended by two years, despite an appalling performance record on the north Kent coastal line and repeated customer complaints.

[Mrs Villiers]

When we issue new franchises, we carry out a detailed consultation process. We will be doing that when the current Southeastern franchise finishes. No consultation was carried out in relation to the continuation review, because this was a contractual term of the franchise that was agreed by the previous Government, which meant that an automatic extension was granted if targets were met by Southeastern. Those targets were met; we had no choice—the extension had to go ahead. In those circumstances, a consultation was not appropriate.

The Minister for Women and Equalities was asked—

Written Parliamentary Question (Correction)

Theresa Villiers Excerpts

Thursday 28th April 2011 Written Statements

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)]

I regret to inform the House that there was an inaccuracy in my written answer (45254) given on 14 March 2011, Official Report, column 97W, about assessment of the effects on competition in the railway industry of the acquisition of Arriva Trains by Deutsche Bahn. The correct answer is that the European Commission carried out an assessment of the Deutsche Bahn acquisition of Arriva plc in 2010. A copy of the European Commission’s assessment of the effects can be viewed on their website.

Railway Expansion

Theresa Villiers Excerpts

Wednesday 27th April 2011 Westminster Hall

[John Pugh]

I suggest that the ratio is 10:1, and perhaps an hon. Member will correct me if I am wrong. I speak with some bitterness, because I spent two years discussing the Crossrail Bill. Its Committee stage was one of the longest in the past 50 years, and it was pure endurance, but one could not help being impressed by the scale of what was being attempted, although there were days when one thought there were better uses for one’s time. It is an engineering marvel, and will link the bankers of Canary Wharf with their planes at Heathrow. I am not against that, but London is already probably the best connected capital in the world, and it already has a tube and bus network that is the envy of every other city in the UK. I genuinely doubt whether London’s contribution to UK plc will be massively affected whether or not we build Crossrail on the most expensive real estate on the planet, with all that is involved. If the bankers of Canary Wharf, like their Venetian counterparts, are forced to take a vaporetto along the Thames, life would not be greatly worse for the nation or the economy.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)]

I cannot help intervening. Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the coalition has embarked on the biggest programme of rail capacity expansion in modern history, which includes significant projects in the north of England, not just electrification, but most recently the announcement that the Ordsall chord scheme has had the go-ahead? That will provide significant benefits for people living in cities throughout the north of England.

[John Pugh]

I am not saying that the Government have done nothing. I am saying that, like all Governments previously, they have in the pending tray schemes on which they have reached no rational conclusion or that have not been investigated thoroughly, and many of them are in the north-west. Even taking into account the investment in the north, which I welcome, applaud and wholly support, the proportion of that investment—the Minister may contradict my figures later—compared with the proportion anticipated for London, including Crossrail and the Thames Gateway, does not chime with the general drive to rebalance the economy.

I accept that there is a problem with overcrowding in London. Anyone who travels on the Northern line at certain times of day will testify to that. However, that is largely because London’s population is always swelled by the enormous number of people coming here every day by train, not because they cannot do business elsewhere, but because getting into and around London is already quite easy for business purposes. It is not easy absolutely, but it is easy compared with many other places.

Anyone who takes a few cross-country journeys by rail, such as from Reading to Liverpool or somewhere that is not on the London axis, knows how difficult they are. Although there has been investment in the north, we often have regurgitated rolling stock that the south-east does not want or has finished using. The bulk of the new rolling stock is coming to the Thames Gateway and the London area, but in Lancashire—the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton will agree—we have the most appalling, aged rolling stock rolling up and down the northern line with no immediate improvement in sight. We have not gone as far as I would like in doing something about regional inequality in transport investment. If I transpose in my mind any of the schemes to which I have alluded and imagine them happening in London and the south-east, I conclude that they would take less time.

The Burscough curve is my scheme of first preference. There are two stations, half a mile apart, in a growing, substantial dormitory town. Trains of two major franchises cover two city regions: Merseyside and Preston, as well as central Lancashire. Those two conurbations have been identified as being poorly linked by transport, but linking those two city regions requires only half a mile of track. If that were the case in Southwark, Kensington, Walthamstow, Richmond or the Thames Gateway, I have no doubt that it would have been funded and done years ago. Colleagues may play the game for themselves with their own pet schemes. What is a no-brainer in London is often a half-century campaign elsewhere.

A simple example with which some hon. Members will be familiar is the snarl-up between freight traffic from the docks and passenger transport trains from Liverpool Lime Street station. That went on for a long time, and arose simply because of the failure to put in the Olive Mount chord. It was wholly supported by all the economic interests in the area, and it has now been done, but I genuinely believe that it would not have taken the same length of time had it occurred at Felixstowe, near Tilbury or elsewhere in the south-east.

I am encouraged by the pre-election support of the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes for smaller schemes. I am heartened by the Secretary of State’s view that even in times of austerity it is sensible to sustain capital investment in transport, and that is what the Government are doing. I am restrained by due and proper caution with regard to some of the schemes, their costs and so on, but we can all travel in hope and never arrive. The Department can set out clearly what it can achieve, or it can simply wash its hands of the matter and put it down to local decision making. I have given reasons why that is not the best outcome.

I want to address the real problem of institutional inertia. We would never have found out that passengers do not suffocate in railway tunnels had we not sent passengers through them—that should not be done in an uncontrolled way, but we certainly managed to find out what happens. We do not know what happens if a scheme such as that at Todmorden progresses, because such schemes do not progress; they remain static. We will never find out whether restoring curves make sense, unless we restore them. That should not be done randomly, and I suggest that the Department rescues its paperwork on curves and their restoration, and prioritises its projects using criteria that can be understood. We must learn lessons by actually carrying out a project and make something happen.

We must also consider other alternatives. There is a long historic link between housing development, which the country sorely needs, and rail development. Housing development often provides a subsidy for rail development. A few years ago I attended a reception—other hon. Members may also have been there—at which the Kilbride Group promoted what it was doing for railway development in the south-west. That was linked to a major housing development, and a similar aspect of housing subsidy could creep into a project such as the Burscough curves. I am aware of the role played by that group and of the possibilities elsewhere. Given that so many people have banged on about this issue for so long, it would not harm the Department for Transport to invite those with such schemes in mind to some sort of seminar, at which problems and prospects on both sides could be aired.

It would also help enormously for the Department to point to an extra mile of track somewhere, and say why it had or had not worked, and to explain why it appears to be neither physically nor financially possible to put back track in England. That would be one way forward. It does not commit the Government to a single penny but it means that we can discuss the various schemes. A while ago I asked to speak personally to the Minister about the Burscough curves, but I understand that she had other priorities at the time and I lay no blame at her door for that. However, I am not comfortable with the strange, Kafkaesque world in which nothing really happens except that the odd consultant gets paid from time to time. The bizarre anomalies that lead to people supporting various schemes continue, but no final decisions are made. I suggest that there is a more intelligent way to do things.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. I, too, congratulate the hon. Member for Southport (John Pugh) on securing the debate, which has been excellent. Clearly, it raises important matters about smaller rail schemes and how, in many instances, they could benefit local areas by increasing economic prosperity and improving access to the rail network for local communities. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that smaller rail schemes clearly should be considered as we consider how best to deal with expansion on our railway network.

We need to consider all ways of making our railways work in the most economically efficient way. Given that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) rightly said, there will be serious capacity issues all over the rail network in the years to come, we need to think about the best ways of expanding the railways for the best value for money, which clearly involves looking at the types of scheme that have been discussed today.

With more and more people wanting to travel by rail, continued investment in increasing rail capacity and expanding the network are vital. With passenger growth expected to increase by up to 50% by 2020, and rail freight expected to grow by 30% during the next decade, substantial changes to the rail network will be needed.

Clearly there has been a great deal of debate in the House and media coverage about larger rail expansion projects such as Crossrail and Thameslink, the electrification schemes in Wales and the north-west, and the ongoing discussions about high-speed rail. Those projects will clearly attract the lion’s share of transport funding in the future. However, growing demand on the rail network can sometimes be satisfied, as we have heard today, by smaller enhancements, such as lengthening platforms to allow for longer trains or doubling single tracks. The former approach has been taken on some London commuter routes, and the latter is appropriate in rural areas that have become bottlenecks.

Of course, local rail expansion has been made more difficult—particularly given the expectation that these schemes and their business cases will be primarily led by local authorities, integrated transport authorities where they exist, local enterprise partnerships where they exist, and so on—following the comprehensive spending review, which left a 28% cut in local government transport spending. That has implications for the immediate future. Sometimes smaller rail projects will not be the best solution all over the rail network. As we see on an increasing number of routes, peak trains are already at maximum length and no further trains can realistically be added.

I welcome the campaigning work of the hon. Member for Southport and particularly the work that he has done to make the case for the Burscough curve, which will help to revive the disused electric track between Ormskirk and Burscough, thus bringing links to Southport. He must have found it a bit disheartening that the present Government in effect slapped a four-year ban on funding such projects, as he discussed in his speech. However, he is to be congratulated on showing the determination to find alternative sources of funding for the scheme, which will certainly benefit his constituents. I wish him well with that.

As many of us in the room are north-west MPs—the exceptions are the hon. Member for Chippenham (Duncan Hames), the Minister and her parliamentary private secretary, the hon. Member for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke)—I agree with the hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) that people could mistakenly think that this is a north-west conspiracy. However, he knows that there is a great deal of rail congestion in the whole of our region, and many commentators have said that smaller schemes, many of which make up elements of what is called the northern hub, are key components in improving rail services across the north of England.

One ambition of the northern hub project is to increase train services in the north by 40% during the next 20 years, including for cities such as Newcastle, Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and Sheffield. That would mean 700 more trains a day, which would make it possible for 3.5 million more passengers to travel by train each year. The estimated wider economic impact of the project is significant as it involves the creation of 23,000 jobs and a return of £4 for every £1 that is spent.

Although I welcome the recent announcement on the Ordsall curve, it has been frustrating for those of us who believe in the northern hub project that the Government have not yet made a firm commitment about when work on that worthwhile and economically beneficial project will begin. That would be a good starting point. I hope that any approval will not be piecemeal, however, because we need to take the northern hub project as a whole. I welcome the fact that the Ordsall curve will link Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Victoria stations by the end of 2016, but that is only one aspect of the northern hub scheme. There is no Government commitment to the entire programme, so I ask the Minister to give a firm commitment that the project will be included in the next Network Rail control period.

Labour clearly remains committed to dealing with overcrowding and capacity problems on the network, and to considering how best to use further rail expansion to do so in the most cost-effective way. However, rail expansion and investment decisions can have a real impact on regional growth, and may help to perpetuate a cycle of increasing disparity of wealth between regions. Such decisions will be all the more important in the light of the abolition of the regional development agencies.

Smaller rail schemes obviously have beneficial effects in all areas of the country. In a previous debate, I played a parliamentary version of rail Top Trumps with the hon. Member for Chippenham over who had the worst rail service in the country—I think that I won with my example of one train a week in one direction only. However, the hon. Gentleman made a powerful case for extra investment in his constituency. I was disappointed that the Government sneaked out their decision to end all funding for local rail schemes developed by local authorities and integrated transport authorities on the same day that they announced the public consultation on High Speed 2.

[Mrs Villiers]

Does the hon. Gentleman know of any local authorities or local promoters that complained about that announcement? The fact is that none of those schemes is ready to kick off before April 2012, so they will still be subject to the same three-year consideration for national funding as under the system that we inherited from the Labour Government.

[Andrew Gwynne]

If that was the case, putting a block on the schemes was a pointless exercise.

The Government’s decision means that no central funding will be available for new schemes until April 2015, which will obviously affect schemes such as that in the constituency of the hon. Member for Southport. Why was that decision not included in the announcement about the comprehensive spending review? Such an important decision should have been announced on its own, rather than being overshadowed by an announcement on the same day about the public consultation on high-speed rail. That is a blow to further passenger choice and to economic regeneration.

The Eddington review outlined the significant returns that can result from smaller projects that unblock pinch points, saying that variable infrastructure schemes to support public transport in urban areas are likely to offer the highest returns. A recent report by the Transport Committee clearly identified the way in which the south, and particularly London, has benefited from rail investment, which was a point made eloquently by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton and others. The report also noted that transport investment per head in London and the south-east was three times as much as in other regions of the country. I do not wish to be misrepresented, so I point out that Labour certainly supports investment in London and the south-east, but similar interest should be shown in the needs of the rest of the country, and my hon. Friend made a valid and powerful point in that respect. Some smaller rail projects might be a way to redress the balance, but we will have to wait to see what is included in the next Network Rail control period.

I wonder whether there is a greater role for tram-train, which was mentioned by the hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood. Such services could vastly improve local passenger services—and the passenger experience—by utilising existing infrastructure. It will be interesting to see the success or otherwise of the south Yorkshire trial and to note whether that can be adopted elsewhere.

Hon. Members will know that Labour is undertaking a fundamental review of all its policies, exactly as the Conservatives did when the Prime Minister became leader of his party. We are looking at all areas of policy, and I must tell my hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton that that includes the question of High Speed 2. I urge him to take part in that because his serious points about capacity on the west coast main line and regional economic disparities should be fed into the process. Whatever the outcome of the policy review, the party will remain committed to assisting the Government to secure the legal powers for High Speed 2 in the hybrid Bill. Like my hon. Friend, I urge the Government to do so for the whole of the Y-shape network, not only the route from London to Birmingham.

Local rail schemes can make an important contribution to solving transport challenges. Many of the points raised today will help to inform the debate. However, as we heard from a number of hon. Members, many local rail projects may be suspended until funding is identified. What the hon. Member for Southport said about building a viable business case was extremely valid, and it is difficult to pursue the process through a vast array of bureaucracy. How will the Government cut through that maze of bureaucracy to bring forward schemes promoted by local partnerships, as described by the hon. Gentleman?

Will the McNulty review make suggestions, and if so what is the Government’s view? What further advice does the Minister have for local authorities to get funding for their projects? Will she make a statement about smaller rail schemes such as the Todmorden curve? What work has the Department done to examine the benefits of reopening other disused rail lines? What will happen to the schemes that were in line for funding before the Government’s announcement earlier this year? The Southport scheme and others represent a small proportion of the schemes on our rail network, and we hope that those and many others will be given due consideration by the Government for the next control period.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)]

I join others in congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Southport (John Pugh) on securing the debate and on his eloquent and articulate speech. All contributions to this good debate have given us an insight into what approach to take on rail expansion, particularly with regard to local schemes. I highlight the fact that my hon. Friend the Member for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke) is in the room because he also takes a keen interest in local rail services in his constituency and campaigns to improve them.

My hon. Friend the Member for Southport acknowledged that there has been a problem in recent years due to a failure to address the increase in passenger numbers by increasing capacity. To be fair to the previous Government, they started to wake up to the problem, but rather late in the day. However, a significant programme of rail investment is now under way. That is a response to the sort of points that my hon. Friend made about the success of the railways in increasing passenger numbers, as well as about the significant economic and wider regeneration benefits that can be produced by the better connectivity that comes with the railways.

I assure my hon. Friend that there is no presumption against local rail schemes, as he indicated that there might be. He and other hon. Members have highlighted the benefits of local rail expansion, whether by reopening disused lines or providing better or more frequent services on existing track. The Government fully recognise the possible benefit of such schemes. I shall set out what assistance we can give on those and the sources of funding that local authorities might look to. However, it is also important to talk about some of the bigger capacity expansion programmes, because my hon. Friend is right that they are much needed.

Despite the deficit that we inherited, the coalition has placed a priority on capital spending on rail programmes for exactly the sort of reasons that my hon. Friend outlined. We have heard about the major electrification programme in the north-west, including for routes between Liverpool and Manchester, Liverpool and Wigan, and Manchester and Blackpool. As well as benefiting long-distance services, that enables local services to be operated by electric trains, thus providing faster journeys for passengers and releasing diesel carriages for use elsewhere on the network.

New Pendolinos will be added to the west coast main line in the months to come. We have announced plans for the electrification of the Great Western line between London, Newbury, Oxford, Bristol and Cardiff. Long-distance services on both Great Western and the east coast will benefit from the new fleet of intercity express programme trains. Line improvements are also going on for the east coast. A major redevelopment at Reading station will benefit railway users right across the south-west of England and south Wales. The long-awaited upgrade of the London underground has been secured. Crossrail and Thameslink are under way and will provide a major boost for public transport capacity in London and the south-east. Funding has been secured for the whole of the CP4 programme of capacity enhancements. More than 2,000 new carriages will be introduced on to the network across the country by May 2019, around 1,800 of which will be additional capacity. That will include 650 extra carriages by May 2014.

We are also consulting on our plans to deliver a Y-shaped high-speed rail network connecting London, Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds. I am grateful for the graciously expressed support of the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer). I assure him of our absolute commitment that the line will go to Manchester and Leeds, because we believe that will not only provide the vital uplift in capacity that he rightly highlights is needed on the west coast and east coast routes, but help to meet the ambition to rebalance the economy and close the prosperity gap between north and south. Our programme of rail and transport improvements includes significant investment in the north. When taking decisions about which investments to make, we of course take on board the wider regeneration issues and our ambition to rebalance the economy, not just the straightforward business case.

Further investment was announced in the Budget, including for the Ordsall curve, which is another important benefit for the whole of the north of England. A second project was the Swindon and Kemble redoubling, which will help to improve local services and resilience on the route to south Wales. The next high level output specification is in preparation, and we will give full consideration to the northern hub. The shadow Minister asked for the Government’s commitment to that, but I would be interested to know whether such a commitment is now official Labour party policy—I noticed that he did not specify that.

I welcome the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Southport about the Burscough curves. I know that he has campaigned for that project for a long time. I emphasise that the key first step to make progress on that is to get support from Lancashire county council and Merseytravel. It is important for local authorities to set priorities on a direct rail link between Ormskirk and Southport, and Southport and Preston. It is for local transport authorities to decide the best way to meet a local transport need.

[John Pugh]

Several hon. Members have voiced concern —the Minister is helping us a little with it at the moment—about the opaqueness of the procedure for getting these schemes to fruition. It would be helpful if the Department for Transport would give guidance to the campaign groups across the country about the stages through which they must go, the hurdles they must get over, who the groups need to get buy-in from, and who is necessary and who is incidental.

[Mrs Villiers]

Guidance is published on the Department’s website, but officials are always happy to engage with campaign groups and local authorities to help them to navigate something that is not an easy process. When one is talking about significant amounts of taxpayers’ money, we need to ensure that care is taken when judging how to deploy it. The Public Accounts Committee and the National Audit Office analyse very astutely whether we are making the right decisions on how money is spent, and that means that business cases have to be considered. My officials will be happy to engage with my hon. Friend on the issue. I will be happy to meet him to discuss the Burscough curves. My officials are heavily engaged with local authorities in the area about the Todmorden curve, which another scheme with considerable local support.

My hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) spoke eloquently about the potential for reopening the Poulton to Fleetwood line. I much enjoyed my visit there. If he is having problems engaging with Network Rail, I will be happy to take that up and to encourage Network Rail to work with the group mentioned by hon. Friend.

In response to my hon. Friend the Member for Chippenham (Duncan Hames) on the TransWilts rail project, I know that the Secretary of State has looked at that recently. Again, if progress is to be made, the first step is to get the support of the local authorities. We want local authorities to be more heavily involved in decisions about rail and we are actively considering how best to bring down the cost of such rail schemes so that it is more viable to deliver the kind of improvements that hon. Members have asked for. We hope that the McNulty review will generate ideas on that point. In addition, we hope that projects such as the Rotherham tram train and the Abbey line tram project will give us an insight into whether light rail can provide a lower-cost alternative for some of the schemes mentioned today.

Sources of funding for such local schemes might include the private sector, if developer contributions are available. The local sustainable transport fund or the regional growth fund are also available. The spending review has provided significant funds for major local transport schemes—£1.5 billion up to 2015. A number of schemes have already been given the go-ahead, including improvements to Leeds station and the extension of the Midland metro. Projects such as Kirkstall Forge and Apperley Bridge are under consideration.

A further funding source is available after a certain period. For projects that are primarily local in nature, we think that it is fair to ask the local authorities to take initial responsibility for getting the scheme up and running, and funding it. We recognise, however, that the railway network needs to adapt to population growth, and we are always prepared to consider the case for reopening disused local lines or the enhancement of local services on existing lines. When a local authority has chosen a rail solution to meet its transport needs, it is appropriate for it to demonstrate its commitment to that solution by taking initial responsibility for revenue funding. Once the service has run for a few years and demonstrated its success, we will then assess it on the same basis as existing franchised services. If the scheme has a good business case, and if the ongoing subsidy required is affordable and can be accommodated within available budgets, we are prepared to consider providing funding at a national level from the departmental rail budget. Schemes would normally be considered for such central funding after three years, but because of the constraints on the budget, we have made it clear that new schemes will not be considered for central funding on that basis until after 2015, although we do not believe that that will have an impact on any existing schemes.

Sikh Turbans (Airport Searches)

Theresa Villiers Excerpts

Tuesday 26th April 2011 Westminster Hall

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)]

I am delighted to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Scott. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal) on securing the debate on this very important issue.

I should first respond straight away to the request for a ministerial meeting. I am very happy to agree to meet representatives of the Sikh community to discuss the issue. I will also respond to the questions about the Government’s approach. I emphasise that the Government are fully aware of the major importance of this issue for so many hon. Members who have turned up today and for the Sikh community. I appreciate and understand, as do my right hon. and hon. Friends in the Government, the pivotal role of the turban in Sikh culture and religious observance, and the distress and concern caused by the possibility of a public hand search of a turban.

[Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab)]

All of us in this Chamber, when we see a turban, understand the spiritual nature that it signifies. Does the Minister agree that the values of Sikhism—tolerance, self-discipline and respect for others—would, when applied to this policy, sort it out straight away? What we actually need is for our European partners to be told in no uncertain terms that we stick by the Sikh community in Britain and we want them to be shown respect.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Villiers]

Absolutely. As I shall go on to outline in my speech, the key to resolving the issue in a way that the Sikh community are happy with is to secure a change in EU rules. The Secretary of State is focused on that, as am I, and I will outline what we are doing on that in my remarks. We are anxious to resolve the issue in a way that is consistent with Sikh beliefs and values.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

We are considering those in the Sikh community, and we appreciate and understand their circumstances. May I suggest that the Minister should also look at the issue of Christians having to go through a body search whenever they go through airports? I make that comment because some of my constituents have come to see me about this issue. Some have had metal parts put into their bodies through medical procedures, and have to be subjected to a strip search every time they go through an airport. We are looking at the issue in relation to Sikhs; will the Minister look at it in relation to Christians as well?

[Mrs Villiers]

We always keep security arrangements under constant review, but I think that all of us here would agree that this issue has special resonance and concern for the Sikh community. Protecting air passengers from the threat of terrorism is crucial. Although several high-profile attempts to blow up commercial airliners have been foiled since 9/11, aviation remains, I am afraid, an iconic and enduring target for terrorists. The recent cargo bomb plot demonstrated once again that those wishing to launch attacks on aviation are well informed about the processes in place—any potential vulnerabilities could be exploited by terrorists.

As the threat evolves and as the terrorist groups devise more sophisticated plans to attack aviation, so our response must evolve. Working closely with airports, we regularly reassess our security regime to ensure that passengers and cargo are effectively screened, and that we comply with our international obligations. However, at the same time, we are very aware of the impact of screening measures on all communities and on the travelling public generally. We are always open to ideas on how to reduce inconvenience for passengers and to improve screening.

[Fiona Mactaggart]

I note the Minister’s point. I challenge my constituency neighbour’s claim to represent more Sikhs than any other Member in the south—they have all moved to Slough now, and I represent them.

The issue is not only about getting European agreement but about consistency in UK airports. Previously, Heathrow had agreed to abide by the wand and swab arrangement, yet I hear from constituents working or travelling through there that it is not consistently applied. Would the Minister, in advance of any meeting with the community, meet with airport operators to ensure consistency within the individual airports?

[Mrs Villiers]

The DFT is of course in touch with airports. There were some teething problems associated with the trial of alternative screening methods, but we are anxious to ensure that they are resolved.

In April last year, new European rules on the screening of headgear came into force, requiring headgear to be searched by hand whenever a passenger or member of staff triggers a walk-through metal-detector alarm or is selected at random for a search when entering a secure restricted area. The new rules immediately triggered serious concern in the Sikh community.

The coalition Government were not in office when the rules were adopted in Europe, but we acted swiftly in response to the opposition expressed by Sikhs about how the new rules were operating. Meetings with the Sikh community were held, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State asked UK airports to delay implementation of the new EU rules while we discussed with the community how to address its concerns. The Department also raised the issue with the European Commission, and further meetings with representatives of the Sikh community were held.

Following those meetings, we conducted laboratory tests using explosive trace detection equipment to identify, if possible, an alternative to a hand search that would give equivalent protection. I am grateful to all the members of the Sikh community who took part in those tests. Initial results indicated that the most effective alternative process involved the use of ETD coupled with a hand-held metal detector. Although the lab work produced some encouraging results, scientists recommended that a larger on-airport trial would be required before any final conclusions could be drawn. We then acted quickly and got permission from the European Commission to proceed with a larger trial, to establish formally whether a combination of ETD equipment and hand-held metal detectors could provide an effective screening method for religious headgear as an alternative to the EU rules which had caused such concern.

The Commission agreed to our request and the trial started on 14 February. It will last for 18 months and represents a crucial step forward towards the solution that everyone present in the Chamber wishes to achieve. Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted are all taking part, along with 19 other airports around the country. The trial is now in progress or due to commence shortly at most major UK airports. Seventeen of the top 20 airports are taking part, including Birmingham, which serves the region including the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South West.

Once the trial had been approved by the European Commission, I am afraid that we could no longer postpone the implementation of the April 2010 rules, which I know caused disappointment—I fully recognise that—but our obligations under the EU treaty meant that we had no choice. Airports had either to comply with the EU regulation or to volunteer for the trial of the revised procedures for screening headgear. We were left with no other course of action.

[Mary Macleod]

I congratulate the Government on making progress on the issue, while trying to find a solution that works for everyone. Can the Minister clarify what ongoing discussions are happening between the Europe Minister and the European Commission to find a resolution as soon as possible?

[Mrs Villiers]

A number of discussions have taken place with the European Commission. I shall report to it after this debate, to emphasise the serious concern expressed in Parliament about the issue and the importance that hon. Members place on achieving a resolution as quickly as possible.

[Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)]

The issue is important not only in the Sikh community; all other faith communities, as far as I am aware, are supportive of the view of the Sikh community, because they understand the respect-for-faith issues. The matter is now the dominant political issue in the Sikh community.

Before the Minister finishes her speech, I hope she can assure us that the Government’s position is that the outcome should be: no hand interference with the turban and no forced removal of it. If she can give that position statement on the Government’s behalf, we will know that we are aiming at the right place and, hopefully, that the negotiations will be a success.

[Mrs Villiers]

Certainly our aim is to reach a solution that avoids public hand search and removal of the turban. That is what we want to reach, but we must be certain that effective alternative screening methods are available.

My officials have been working with the airport industry to encourage the widest possible participation in the alternative screening method trials, but such trials are voluntary. We cannot compel all airports to take part, but we are seeing real progress as the trial proceeds. We are getting a valuable, real-world opportunity to see how the technology works in practice. Only by such testing can we demonstrate and be certain that the method works. Only then, with such evidence, can we hope to secure a change to the European rules so that one day, we hope, all airports will offer the alternative screening method using a combination of ETD and hand-held metal detectors. My officials will pass the trial data to the European Commission, as part of our efforts to secure a resolution.

We are continuing to work hard with airports to ensure that the introduction of the trial methods proceeds smoothly and that any teething problems are resolved. Airports are committed to working with the community to resolve those difficulties.

My hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South West highlighted concerns about search procedures in other EU member states. We have no power to tell other member states how to run their security procedures—that is a matter for them—but I appreciate the concern and unhappiness expressed in other member states about the searching of religious headgear.

[Mr Virendra Sharma]

Is the Minister willing to write to the partner states expressing the concerns of Members and of the communities represented at the debate, so that the member states can start listening as well? As previous speakers have said, there is a lack of understanding in the European countries about Sikh and other faiths.

[Mrs Villiers]

That is a good idea. I am happy to write to the equivalent Ministers in other member states, pointing out the concerns expressed.

The strength and vibrancy of our Sikh community in the UK gives us a special interest in the issue, an insight we can usefully share with our European partners, so we will be doing our best to lead the debate not only with the Commission but with other member states. We are working hard for a solution. I appreciate that there is real frustration. Achieving the change we need will take time. Unfortunately, amending European law is never a speedy process. However, I would like to assure the Sikh community, all my hon. Friends and other Members present at the debate today that the Government take the issue very seriously.

Further meetings with the Sikh community are planned for May. We will continue to work hard on the issue and to engage closely with community leaders to maintain the highest levels of passenger security, but to do so in a culturally sensitive way which we hope will address the concerns of the Sikh community.

Question put and agreed to.

High-Speed Rail

Theresa Villiers Excerpts

Thursday 31st March 2011 Westminster Hall

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)]

Is my hon. Friend aware that the analysis of the business case for RP2 does not take into account the huge cost that would come from disruption to services as a result of the kind of upgrade she is talking about?

[Andrea Leadsom]

I thank my right hon. Friend for her intervention. I had not written that into my contribution because there is so much to say. As she well knows, HS2 requires the complete rebuilding of Euston station, and it would be extraordinarily difficult for services to be able to continue on the west coast main line during that period. In addition, as I am sure she knows, the proposals in RP2 are not the same as the first incremental improvements to the west coast main line in the first phase of regeneration, which required rebuilding virtually the whole of the track and the signals. The incremental proposals are entirely achievable while existing network services are utilised along the west coast main line.

[Mrs Villiers]

Does my hon. Friend accept that the more intensively a transport system is used, the higher the price paid in terms of lack of resilience? One of the major concerns about RP2 is that the line is intensively used at present, and the kind of even more intense use that she advocates would have a significant impact on it and cause major deterioration in reliability. There would be a significant negative impact on the quality of the passenger experience.

[Andrea Leadsom]

I thank the Minister again, but I have to disagree with her. There is no evidence that suggests that RP2 would involve a desperately intensive use of the west coast main line. Not only that, the capacity created by it would significantly exceed the likely demand, certainly in the short and medium term. Other rail experts argue that the forecasting model that is being used by the Department for Transport is suitable for forecasting demand up to 10 years only, not the 43 or 45 years for which the Department is forecasting. There is no clear evidence that my proposal would entail that intensity of west coast main line usage.

Another significant benefit of RP2 is that it can be delivered far quicker than HS2, thereby dealing with the problems of overcrowding now, rather than leaving the commuters of Manchester, Birmingham, Rugby and Milton Keynes to wait until 2026 for proper relief. The danger that is inherent in forecasting out to 45 years, as the Department has done, is removed by using RP2. It can be implemented incrementally—it is not all or nothing—and problems can be dealt with as they arise.

I fear that HS2 is a flawed project. There is no doubt that we have to improve our transport infrastructure, but I urge the Department to reconsider RP2, which is cheaper and more environmentally friendly. It would deal with the problems sooner and far more accurately than HS2.

I shall conclude with a final call to action. The original mandate of HS2 Ltd was to look at the feasibility of, and the business case for, a new high-speed rail line between London and the west midlands, and to consider the case for high-speed rail services linking London, northern England and Scotland. Because of that mandate, HS2 Ltd inevitably has a vested interested in seeing HS2 built. For the credibility of the project, the Department should undertake an independent comparison of the merits of HS2 versus RP2. Legitimate concerns have been ignored because of the insistence that opposition is just nimbysm. We must put that aside and have a rigorous debate on how to achieve our shared goals while getting the greatest bang for our buck. Thank you, Mr Walker.

[Mr Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry North West) (Lab)]

I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom). This is, indeed, a most important debate, and I would like to thank the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone), who is a member of the Backbench Business Committee, for giving it to us. As he made clear, we had wished for a debate on the Floor of the House, and he almost promised us one once we are further into the consultation period. I am pleased to see such a good cross-party alliance forming here against HS2, and I hope briefly to follow the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire in setting out some of the reasons why it is a monumental waste of money and diversion of scarce resources.

I assure my hon. Friends who represent certain London and home counties constituencies, and others such as my right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth), that those who oppose HS2 absolutely recognise the need for more capacity. We recognise that greater connectivity would be of great benefit, but we believe—I agree here with the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire—that Rail Package 2, which was worked out by Atkins, as the Minister knows, offers a much better prospect for being able to do that in a shorter time and on a much more cost-effective basis than HS2. I will say a few more things about that in a moment, if I may.

Those who represent Manchester and Leeds will naturally have an interest in seeing their constituents and businesses able to come down to London much more quickly than they can at present. I urge them to read about and get into the alternatives in RP2. It does most of what they could reasonably expect, given the scarcity of resources for capital projects, and all other areas of revenue expenditure as well, that this country faces in this difficult period.

The project mysteriously appeared at the tail end of the previous Government’s tenure of office, and was somehow or other—remarkably quickly—brought to the fore by Lord Adonis. One has to congratulate him on his coup in that respect. To many people, it came out of the blue, and provided the preponderant Tory part of the present Government with a marvellous reason for being able to cover their strange decision against the Heathrow extension—I know that many people had an interest in it. They managed to cover it by being able to say that they would replace it with HS2 going up to Birmingham and on to the north. It does not really do that at all. It is a great pity that the coalition Government missed the opportunity at least to subject this huge expenditure to a proper review. Instead, they jumped on the bandwagon to justify their stance over Heathrow.

As for the justification for HS2, I pay tribute to the work done by the HS2 Action Alliance against the project and I recommend its papers to everyone in the debate—I am sure some of them will be available, and Members should study them. For those of us who are against the project, it is a relief not to have to fix the numbers or to choose the numbers that suit our case best, as all Governments and Oppositions do, because every time we look at the Government’s numbers, they collapse. The Department for Transport brought some numbers out last March, and they brought some more out this year. Every time they bring numbers out and we examine them—there is no party political point in this—they are downgraded, just like current Government forecasts. At the end of my speech I will return to the point about what the Government should do in the present situation.

If one adopts some realistic assumptions on demand for HS1 and on the time benefit, the net benefit ratio is now down to 50p per pound spent. No time currently spent travelling by rail is counted at all, but the entire time spent on HS1 is counted at an annual rate of £70,000 a year, and every minute is brought into the so-called net benefit ratio. That is a monstrous distortion. One does not have to calculate other figures; one simply has to expose what the Government and the Department are up to.

Another point that has been made is that there is no alternative. I will deal with the subsidiary points in a moment. As I said, there is an alternative: it is called Rail Package 2, and it is in the Atkins alternatives. Before the Department published the revised forecast earlier this month, we urged it to study RP2. Instead, it bundled it together with two or three inadequate alternatives and tried to tar them all with the same brush. What we need the Government to do—they have made a useful start in this respect—is to set up an office to objectively and independently consider major infrastructure projects, in the same way that they set up the Office for Budget Responsibility. We do not have such an office, and nobody has looked at this issue other than the Government and the Department, whose minds are set in favour of HS2. What we are embarking on is not consultation; those who are against the project and those who are in favour of it can put their points, and ne’er the twain shall meet. The outcome, of course, will be a Division in the House in due course.

The Government are not listening; their mind is made up. Instead of just putting forward the same old flawed figures, why do they not look at the situation again, study RP2 objectively, try to develop it and see what alternatives emerge? They should do that productively and positively, not so that they can dismiss RP2 before they have made a decent analysis of it.

[Mrs Villiers]

I am sure I am not going to convince the hon. Gentleman on everything, but I hope that I can convince him that the Government have an open mind on this issue. We are listening to the concerns that are being expressed now and that will be expressed during the consultation. That is one reason why about half the route we inherited from our predecessors has been altered with a view to mitigating its local environmental impact.

[Mr Robinson]

I am grateful to the Minister. I hope that we can take that assurance at face value, as we are meant to. The test will be whether the Department is prepared objectively to get into the detail of RP2, because it has not done so yet. The Government should just study the papers produced by the HS2 Action Alliance and look at where they have tried to conflate a whole set of different alternatives. The Government and the Department—not the Minister, of course—should look at where they have tried to obfuscate the obvious advantages of RP2. From being 25% of the capital cost of HS2, RP2 has suddenly become 50%. That is all about the sudden increase in the cost of the rolling stock for RP2. Why has that happened? Can the Minister answer that basic question? After all, the Government say that they have studied this objectively.

[Mrs Villiers]

There are two different ways to analyse RP2, one of which involves purchasing rolling stock and one of which involves leasing it. That may be the source of the hon. Gentleman’s confusion.

[Mr Robinson]

We have suddenly gone from finding rolling stock available to having to purchase it. The change is not justified; it is not even spelled out. People will have their houses razed and they will suffer enormously. Every taxpayer will have to pay well over £1,000 towards HS2, but there is no real justification for this project yet.

If the Department is serious, if it wants to get back some credibility with those who look at these issues and if it wants to justify a real national case to people, including some in my constituency, as well as citizens elsewhere in Coventry and in Stoke, who will simply be bypassed and have a much worse service from HS2—businesses in Coventry will be adamantly against it, and those in Leeds and Manchester can no doubt be brought to say that they are, too—the least it can do is set up a proper inquiry into the business case for HS2 and explain why RP2 would not be a far better alternative or, at the very minimum, a valid alternative.

Conversations with Centro have made it clear that we need the added capacity, and no one in the debate has any doubt that HS2 would provide it, but at what cost? It will cost £18 billion to Birmingham and £30 billion to Manchester and Leeds. The cost per job created will be £600,000, which is monstrous. It has been said that that is about four times more than a normal job, for which the cost is £150,000, but even that figure is a gross exaggeration, and infrastructure projects can create jobs elsewhere in the economy at a much lower cost. The figure of £600,000 is mind-blowing.

Incidentally, I cannot imagine where the Treasury is on this. It has never been known to be terribly favourable to transport projects—on the contrary. It is also notorious for cutting waste and stopping projects that do not have a proper financial justification. How has the Department managed to convince the Prime Minister and now the Chancellor that it is in favour of the project? I cannot imagine why the Treasury has not stopped it. The only reason can be that the Government need something to explain why they have come out—this was purely for electoral reasons—against the development of Heathrow.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dan Byles]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) on securing the debate after months of dogged perseverance, along with myself and the hon. Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson), and for her tour de force of a speech, which I think we all agree made the points very eloquently. I am also delighted to see Mr Speaker here; he obviously has a great interest in the matter.

The high number of Members attending demonstrates the importance of the issue, not just to those whose constituencies are affected, but to the entire country. It also clearly demonstrates the need for a full debate on the matter on the Floor of the House before the end of the consultation period. This involves a huge sum of money on a hugely important national infrastructure project. I believe it deserves full debate and discussion by the House.

Due to the large number of Members wishing to speak, and in particular due to the excellent job that my hon. Friend made in pointing out the serious flaws in the business case, I will not speak for too long. I see no need to repeat many of the points that have been made. We have heard that the net benefit ratio is potentially lower than some of the alternatives that we do not believe have been adequately explored. The NBR depends on extremely optimistic passenger growth numbers over which there are serious questions. As the hon. Member for Coventry North West said, we know that the Department for Transport’s record on estimating passenger numbers for HS1 was frankly diabolical. To risk £17 billion of taxpayers’ money on what might be equally diabolical passenger forecast numbers would be very wrong, without considerably more work being done.

I oppose the proposal in respect of the national business case. However, I would also like to point out my serious concern about the possible impact of the project on the regions. There has been a lot of discussion and talk about the benefits of rebalancing the economy and pushing economic growth from the south-east to the regions. That is often used as a principal argument in favour of this project. However, I do not believe that the Department or HS2 Ltd have adequately analysed the evidence from existing high-speed rail networks in other countries. The impact assessments produced by HS2 Ltd clearly demonstrate that one of the costs of HS2 will be slower and less frequent train services for some of the surrounding towns and cities—a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry). I am less shy than the hon. Member for Coventry North West in saying that Coventry will see its direct rail services potentially slashed from three to one an hour. The remaining one will be slower.

[Mrs Villiers]

That is simply not true. There are some indicative forecasts in the HS2 analysis about how services might be configured in future. The reality is that Coventry is going to continue to enjoy frequent fast services. With HS2, it gets additional capacity for other journey opportunities, in particular, commuters get vital relief from overcrowding and lack of reliability as a result of overcrowding on the network.

[Dan Byles]

I am delighted to hear the Minister say that that is not true.

--- Later in debate ---

[Frank Dobson]

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. Another point is the connection with HS1. We are told that great strategists with vinegar-soaked towels around their heads came up with HS2 as the first stage of a great, high-speed rail network. They seemed not to notice that they had not proposed a connection with the only existing part of the high-speed rail network, High Speed 1, which comes into St Pancras station.

[Mrs Villiers]

I assure the right hon. Gentleman that the mistake that the previous Government made in not providing for a link between domestic and international services has been remedied by the current Government; such a link is part of our plans.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Slaughter]

I shall say a word in favour of nimbyism in a moment.

Yes, it is true that my constituency will suffer no loss of property, and I am obviously delighted by the fact. Indeed, 5,000 jobs and a minimum of 1,600 homes will be created by the new infrastructure. It will be a positive development in one of the most deprived areas of the country—White City, Shepherds Bush and Old Oak. I should say that I live five minutes from there, but it will put my constituents 10 minutes from Heathrow and just over 40 minutes from Birmingham. These are the sort of projects of which the country used to be proud, and it used to seek mitigation for them rather than avoiding them altogether on the basis that such decisions are difficult to make.

Having said that, I believe that the project is good not only because the route and the interchange have some parochial benefit but because they give direct access to the Great Western line, Crossrail, the Heathrow express and HS1 just a few minutes outside central London. That is an improvement.

I have two caveats for the Minister, if she will take the advice. First, the Government need to look for friends wherever they can, but they have not done that so far. Last year’s debate was on 11 March, almost a year ago, and the Minister was then Opposition spokesman. Her aggressive stance rather belied the fact that she supported the announcement made by Lord Adonis. Her questions then are ones that she could answer today. She asked:

“Will they match our commitment to start work immediately on taking the line beyond Birmingham to Manchester and Leeds as part of stage 1?...Why will they not match our commitment to start construction by 2015? What guarantees can they give that fares will be kept within the reach of ordinary families on modest incomes?”

Those are all questions that the Minister might want to answer today. Rather churlishly I thought, she then said about Old Oak:

“Although we do not rule out use of that site for dispersal, the idea that some kind of ‘Wormwood Scrubs international’ station is the best rail solution for Heathrow is just not credible.”— [Official Report, 11 March 2010; Vol. 507-08, c. 450.]

I remind the Minister of this every time the subject comes up, and I know that she is happy to eat those words.

[Mrs Villiers]

rose—

[Mr Slaughter]

I shall give way in a moment. So that bygones can be bygones perhaps the Minister will say, “I would be delighted if it was called Wormwood Scrubs International” when she comes to open it.

[Mrs Villiers]

It would be a pleasure. I hope that the hon. Gentleman is aware that the Government’s proposals include a direct link to Heathrow as part of phase 2 of the project.

[Mr Slaughter]

Absolutely, but that was always in Lord Adonis’ mind. The report that he commissioned from Lord Mawhinney clearly said that Old Oak was an appropriate, good-quality terminus and connection point to the airport, and pointed out that the Conservatives’ previous scheme of having the interchange at Heathrow would cost between £2 billion and £4 billion more; he effectively rubbished that scheme in favour of the Adonis project, which is what we have gone back to.

As I say, we should let bygones be bygones—except for this point. When the Secretary of State launched the scheme on 20 December, he made a statement in the House without presenting Members with plans and documents, so we were entirely in the dark. He went to Old Oak and launched the scheme that morning, giving notice to everyone, including the Conservative party, but not the constituency MP. The Minister and HS2 are rather short of friends at the moment, and they should look to cultivate people a little more if they wish to continue to have them speak out on their behalf.

As far as I am aware—other Members may have seen it—there is no HS2 briefing for this debate. I had no correspondence until I approached HS2 about a visit to the site. The consultation is not adequate. The only consultation for my constituents is to be held at the Westfield shopping centre, which is a long way from the site and an entirely inappropriate location, for one day; it happens to be tomorrow. If the Minister has some influence, she could take the message back to High Speed 2 that it is not making friends through its their approach.

A more serious point is this. Notwithstanding what I said in response to the hon. Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry) about the effect on individual constituencies, mitigation will be the key to the project’s success. That applies to my constituency, as much of the tunnelling will take place from the Old Oak interchange. When it comes to the disposal of spoil, the road network in the area is entirely inadequate given the traffic that will be generated. We may not have anything quite like the Chilterns in Shepherds Bush, but we do have Wormwood Scrubs. It is a large open space that is ecologically sensitive, and I have been protecting it not for years but for many decades. If HS2 and the Government wish to have, if not their support, then at least the acquiescence of hon. Members, they need to go a lot further.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Walker. This has been an excellent, high-quality debate, with some great contributions from hon. Members from all parties, and I congratulate them all. I congratulate the hon. Members who secured the debate: my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom), the hon. Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson), and my hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Dan Byles).

I welcome what seems to be qualified support from the shadow Minister; we are not quite sure where he is going on this matter. I reassure him that we are fully committed to taking high-speed rail to Leeds and Manchester. We were the first to champion that in opposition, and we continue to do so. In response to a number of questions, let me say that work is under way on route and station options for the route north of Birmingham. HS2 Ltd has been asked to report to the Secretary of State on those options later this year.

It is good to see my right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Mr Randall), and my hon. Friends the Members for Lichfield (Michael Fabricant), and for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright), here. They have all been assiduous in pressing their concerns on Government and representing their constituents fully. Their frequent representations have been much valued by the Secretary of State and continue to have an influential impact on our thinking.

Let me turn to the points raised in debate. First, on the local environmental impact, let me make it clear that I fully recognise the concerns of those whose homes and communities could be affected by the preferred line of route. Responding to the concerns of the hon. Member for Coventry North West, we are putting a huge amount of work in to mitigate and reduce the potential impact. Approximately half the length of the preferred route to the west midlands in the plans we inherited has been changed. We have added more than a mile and half of green tunnels to maintain local access and minimise noise and visual impact.

Large sections of the routes have been lowered into deeper cuttings, reducing the number of viaducts to cut down on visual intrusion. We have made several route alterations to avoid settlements and important heritage sites. Under the revised proposals, the Chilterns will be crossed predominantly in tunnels and deep cuttings, or alongside the existing A413 transport corridor. The number of properties where high noise levels will be expected has fallen from about 350 in previous versions of the plans to around 10 properties, and we will plant 2 million trees between Birmingham and London. We will continue to listen to ideas for mitigation as part of the consultation process, at the end of which we will carefully consider all representations.

Let me turn to the points on the business case. On the criticisms made by my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire in relation to our passenger growth figures, the consultation document forecasts that passenger demand will roughly double for long-distance services on the west coast main line. That projection covers 30 years and is based on modest growth rates of just under 2% a year; that compares to a 5% growth rate between 1994 and 2009. If anything, the numbers are cautious. For example, demand between London and Manchester rose by almost 60% over the four years to 2008.

My hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth (Christopher Pincher) expressed concern about the methodology in relation to other industry practices. There is widespread industry consensus, as highlighted by the both the shadow Minister and my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech), that the west coast main line will be full within around a decade; some people think sooner, some later, but there is consensus that the line is filling up fast.

My hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire also expressed the concern, in her eloquent and well-argued contribution, that our analysis does not take account of the fact that time can be used productively on a train. We have listened, and we have carried out sensitivity testing on our numbers, and the results we have had indicate that factoring in productive time would have a broadly neutral impact on the business case for HS2, because failing to deliver a new line would leave trains more and more overcrowded, making it less and less feasible to do any productive work on the trains currently on our network.

As for the allegation made by one or two hon. Members that we are proposing a rich man’s railway, and the concerns expressed about fares by the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) and the shadow Minister, our research indicates that 70% of passengers would be travelling for reasons other than business, with leisure trips particularly important. All our modelling is based on fares that are in line with existing services. Our assumptions about the expected fare-box do not factor in or depend on any premium for high-speed services.

The hon. Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) and other hon. Members expressed concern that the project would see the rest of our railways starved of funds. There is simply no evidence to back that allegation. On the contrary, despite a crisis in the public finances as grave as any that this country has faced in its peacetime history, the coalition is investing more than £30 billion in road, rail and local transport schemes throughout Britain over the next four years, and that includes the most extensive programme of rail upgrades in modern history, to which was recently added the Ordsall Chord scheme, which was welcomed by my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Withington.

Budgets have not been set beyond 2015, but we expect the case for investment in transport to continue to be strong in the years ahead, as evidenced by the commitments that we have made on Thameslink, Crossrail, electrification, the intercity express programme, and road improvements that stretch beyond the current spending review period.

A key element in the crux of the arguments by opponents of HS2 is the question of whether journey time savings delivered by high-speed rail will be worth the cost of building the new line. The Government’s proposals, as hon. Members have pointed out this afternoon, are about more than just speed. One of the biggest advantages of our plans is that a new line would release additional capacity on our existing railways, benefiting places such as Coventry and Milton Keynes, as my hon. Friend the Member for Weaver Vale (Graham Evans) pointed out. That would help to address crowding problems for long-distance passengers, and provide more space for commuter services and the freight services that the hon. Member for Luton North championed so well, and it would also improve network resilience and reliability.

[Mr Ainsworth]

I recognise what the Minister says about Coventry. The city is split, and the council is opposed, as is my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson), but I cannot understand how it would be damaged by being only eight miles to the east of what would be the country’s major transport spine. The benefits are clear for anyone who wants to see them.

[Mrs Villiers]

The right hon. Gentleman puts the case very well. Coventry stands to benefit hugely from the plans under consideration this afternoon. Journey time savings matter. For example, the Y network would enable people living in Manchester and Leeds to get to Canary Wharf in roughly one hour and 40 minutes, and Heathrow in 75 minutes or less. I assure the shadow Minister that the plans for phase 2 include the direct link to Heathrow that we called for in opposition.

I believe that bringing the capital within 49 minutes of Birmingham and 80 minutes of Manchester and Leeds would spread the massive benefits of London’s global pull. It would do more to bridge the north-south divide than virtually all previous efforts to address a problem that has defied solution for decades, which is probably one reason why so many people north of Birmingham support the project so strongly.

[Mr Robinson]

The Minister spoke about regional benefits, and we increasingly see the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister emphasising in person the north-south divide. First, how does she explain the fact that of the jobs created—about 30,000—seven in 10 will be in London, not the regions? Secondly, does she really believe that £600,000 a job is good regional investment policy?

[Mrs Villiers]

The project will create jobs throughout the country. The suggestion that all the cities that are calling for high-speed rail will see their economic growth sucked away by London just does not hold water. Look around Europe, where cities such as Lille and Lyons have been transformed. In Europe and Asia, cities are fighting hard to be on the high-speed rail networks that other countries have the courage and determination to deliver.

[Andrea Leadsom]

Does my right hon. Friend accept that unemployment in Lille rose after high-speed rail went there?

[Mrs Villiers]

What I know is that Lille’s prospects were transformed by high-speed rail, and its unemployment level fell to much closer to the French average. If people in Lille were asked whether high-speed rail was bad for them, or whether they would like it to be shut down, I suspect that they would say no.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) said, shrinking journeys between cities in the north will have a hugely beneficial impact, enabling them increasingly to merge into a single economic area. I emphasise that with its potential to regenerate regional economies, create thousands of jobs, and boost our national economy by about £44 billion, the project is about much more than shaving half an hour off the journey time to Birmingham.

That brings me to the next allegation—that the project is not affordable. In practice, most of the spending will not kick in for at least five years, so it is not competing directly with other priorities in the current period of austerity. Spending will then be phased in over the period of construction, which we all know is, sadly, a long one. The annual average cost will not be out of line with projects such as Crossrail, as my hon. Friend the Member for Weaver Vale pointed out. The figures in the consultation document also make no allowance for possible private sector contributions, which could be considerable, as hon. Members have pointed out, particularly in relation to the expected benefits of station redevelopment.

Perhaps most important is that delivering a major uplift in inter-urban transport capacity is not some nice-to-have luxury. It is absolutely essential if we are to prevent a capacity crisis on the west coast line and other key transport corridors in the years to come. No Government can afford to sit back, ignore the problem, and pretend that it does not exist.

Despite the valiant efforts of my hon. Friends the Members for South Northamptonshire, and for North Warwickshire, and the hon. Member for Coventry North West, the opponents of HS2 have not made a convincing case that there is a better way of dealing with the expected growth in demand for inter-city travel. My hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Chris White) suggested that information technology will provide the answer. I certainly hope that future advances in technology will make video-conferencing an alternative to more journeys, but I am afraid that after in-depth research, the Committee on Climate Change concluded that the net impact of such technology on travel is likely to be minimal, and I am afraid that improvements to the existing network just cannot provide the capacity that HS2 would. The Government are already committed to delivering a 30% uplift in capacity on the west coast line, with new carriages being introduced from April 2012, but that will simply not be enough to meet the demand for inter-city travel in the decades to come.

In response to the shadow Minister’s question about the capacity to deliver, HS2 would deliver 14 trains an hour, each of which would have about 1,100 seats. RP2 simply will not meet the future needs of this country’s transport system. The practical realities of further work on the existing line have a serious downside. As the right hon. Member for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth) said, passengers were subjected to a decade of disruption with the improvements to the west coast line, which have just been completed.

For the information of my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire, the work required at Euston for RP2 would be considerably more disruptive than those required there for HS2, because they would have to be carried out within Euston’s current footprint, making it much more difficult to keep current services going. Disruption would be much worse this time, because the west coast line is twice as busy as it was seven years ago.

The most viable journey time savings that could be achieved using the existing line would involve cutting out intermediate stops, which we all know would be deeply upsetting for the affected communities. Moreover, line upgrades cannot deliver any released capacity benefits, and squeezing even more into the current timetable to allow more intense use of the line would compromise resilience, and is virtually guaranteed to lead to a serious deterioration in reliability. In contrast, infrastructure-related delays on HS1 average just 6.8 seconds. The simple truth is that whatever is done to the existing line, it could never match the economic benefits of faster journey times, capacity uplift, and regeneration that HS2 would deliver.

The hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) called for leadership in delivering the project, and we intend to provide that. He asked whether appropriate rolling-stock designs were available. Our research and analysis is based on rolling stock that is already in use in the many countries that have embarked on high-speed rail. My hon. Friend the Member for Weaver Vale pointed out that the high-speed rail link is a manifesto promise, and it is one that we intend to keep. My hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth expressed concern about the current status of compensation, and I assure him that the exceptional hardship scheme is already in operation.

Lastly, I will address the allegation that high-speed rail is not green and offers no environmental benefits. Our analysis shows that the shift from road and aviation that would come with delivering the west midlands section of the line would broadly offset any increase in carbon emissions from the new line, despite the significant increase in passenger journeys that it would accommodate. We would get a major economic boost without increasing carbon emissions, which is just the sort of sustainable growth most people in the country say we should have. The modal shift resulting from the Y-shaped network to the north of England would be greater still, with as many as 6 million journeys by air and 9 million by road expected to migrate to rail. The carbon benefits of rail over aviation are set to grow as we make progress on decarbonising the electricity supply.

The consultation under way is one of the most wide-ranging ever undertaken. We will listen to and consider all responses with care, including those that will help us further mitigate potential local impact, which I know hon. Members are concerned about. I genuinely believe that with care, effort and high-quality engineering, we can address the worst local impacts and provide much-needed reassurance to the constituents of hon. Members who have taken part in the debate. Similar things were done for HS1.

Today, we still rely almost entirely on railways built by the Victorians, and I think it is time we started catching up with the high-speed rail revolution on which our European partners embarked more than a generation ago. I believe that we can—and should—aspire to the sort of high-quality long-distance travel network that other countries take for granted. Our high-speed rail plans provide a once-in-a-generation chance to address the transport capacity needs of our economy in the future, transform our economic geography, and generate a boost for jobs and growth worth billions of pounds. We know that it will not be an easy process, but we should not let this opportunity slip through our fingers. I have welcomed the opportunity to set some of our plans before the House this afternoon.

Question put and agreed to.