Public Service Broadcasters

Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts

Thursday 28th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lady Bonham-Carter and with her permission, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in her name on the Order Paper.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government recognise many of the issues and new challenges facing our public service broadcasters, highlighted by the Ofcom chief executive in her speech on 28 November last year. The Government are committed to supporting the PSBs to ensure that they continue to meet audience needs in future and remain at the heart of our world-class TV industry. This may mean PSBs collaborating to compete and forming new partnerships to achieve greater reach and impact. The BritBox proposal recently announced by the BBC and ITV is an example of this, and we look forward to seeing more detail on this service as it develops.

[Lord Foster of Bath]

I thank the Minister for his reply, but does he agree that in this fast-changing world—with US-based on-demand video streaming services such as Netflix, Amazon and now Apple increasingly penetrating the UK market—we need an agile regulatory regime that does not act as a brake on UK innovation? Netflix updates its platform once a week, yet it could take up to eight months for Ofcom to approve very modest changes to the BBC’s iPlayer. Should we not find a quicker way to approve BBC initiatives that benefit UK audiences and new proposals—such as the joint venture proposed by ITV and the BBC for BritBox—that could provide additional investment for new British content?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that we should have nimble and agile PSBs and therefore a regulatory system that is capable of dealing with that. The analogy he draws is not quite correct. Netflix can change its platform overnight because it has to consider only Netflix, whereas Ofcom has to consider the whole regulatory landscape. It is therefore important that it takes into account what effect it has if the BBC changes something such as the iPlayer. I take the point he makes about being nimble and agile and moving with the times. The chief executive of Ofcom made that point exactly when she said that it needed to be,

“a forward-looking regulator that supports the future success of UK TV, firmly rooted in the online world”.

[Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen (Con)]

My Lords, collaboration obviously brings opportunities, but will my noble friend comment on the importance of ensuring, and indeed what is being done to ensure, that PSBs carry on making programmes that the UK viewer wants to watch—as opposed, perhaps, to what the American viewer wants to watch?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My noble friend is absolutely right. This is one problem with US subscription services. They spend a huge amount on content. Netflix spent £4.6 billion on content in 2017 and Amazon spent £3.4 billion, but only £150 million of that was UK-made TV, whereas the public service broadcasters spent £2.6 billion on UK content.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the Minister’s replies to questions thus far put, but in the speech that occasioned the Question the Ofcom commissioner talked about competition and collaboration between the public service broadcasters and the great platforms that we are talking about—the FANGs. In other words, this is not just about competition between public service broadcasters and these various bodies; collaboration needs to happen between them. She points to certain instances such as “King Lear” and “Dracula” that are evidence of such collaboration already taking place.

I must not outlast my welcome, but I have one tiny thing to finish. Apart from BritBox—this thing that is coming between ITV and the BBC—I have recently been made aware of other boxes that are the result of piracy and people taking the market away from all the bodies that we have thus far discussed. What kind of eye are we keeping on such activities in this ever-emerging field?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The noble Lord is right that there has already been a lot of collaboration. Collaboration exists between Netflix and other subscription video on demand services and the public service broadcasters. That will continue and is being encouraged. Illegal boxes are illegal. They will be prosecuted within the law because they take away the benefits that public service broadcasting brings to ordinary citizens and consumers in this country.

[Lord McNally (LD)]

My Lords, one protection for public service broadcasters in the 2003 Act was prominence in the listings, yet now both the FANGs that have been described and the manufacturers are calculatingly getting around the listings to shunt public service broadcasting into the sidings. It will need from the Government and the regulator more than passive observation. Active action will be needed if the PSBs are to be protected.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I agree with that. That is why we promised to legislate when Ofcom gives us its recommendations for the online prominence regime. If it needs legislation, the Secretary of State says that we will do that.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, does the Minister recall that Ofcom found that RT had breached the regulations seven times? Is he concerned that the appeal by RT is taking a very long time? Meanwhile, it is continuing to pump out Putin’s propaganda all over the United Kingdom, with polemic programmes fronted by people such as George Galloway and Alex Salmond.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

One difference between this country and Russia is that there is a rule of law. The legal process is being followed, which includes regulation that Parliament has given to Ofcom, independent of government. That will be followed, and I trust that something useful will happen from it.

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

My Lords, will BritBox be available to British holidaymakers in Spain, France and so on, and to British expats who are resident there? I ask because I was approached on holiday in Spain some years ago by a local provider of British television who wanted to negotiate a legitimate fee-paying service with freeview suppliers, including the BBC and ITV. But when he approached the heads of the BBC and ITV, they were not interested. That does not seem sensible.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The difference with BritBox is that it is a commercial service and therefore that it will be in its interest to get as many people to pay as possible. It already exists in America. I cannot answer precisely on whether it will be available in Europe, but there will be different motivations for the BBC and ITV, as this is a commercial service and they will want as many subscribers as they can get.

Sackler Trust: Donations

Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts

Wednesday 27th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Clancarty]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the wider implications of the decisions by the National Portrait Gallery and Tate to forgo the intended donations from the Sackler Trust.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, the DCMS-sponsored museums operate independently, at arm’s length from government. Therefore, decisions on philanthropic giving and other donations are a matter for the trustees of the respective institutions. Individual sponsored museums and galleries operate their own procedures relating to propriety and ethics, fundraising and charitable objectives.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, first, looking forward, does the Minister not recognise that there needs to be some manner of formal public vetting of donors to our national museums and other institutions in the light of growing public awareness about where the money comes from, particularly with regard to sizeable donations? Secondly, does he not feel that it is high time that government reaffirmed a commitment to the proper public funding of our museums, so that private donations are the icing on the cake rather than something on which museums are now clearly over- dependent?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, with regard to the second question, the Government do support museums. Public funding amounts to about a third of all museum funding, and that is very important. One of the strengths of the museum and gallery sector in this country is that it has a diversified funding stream. The Mendoza review found that the amount of public funding that museums and galleries received over a 10-year period was roughly consonant. I do not think that public vetting of donors is a good idea. I do not think that the Government should be involved in assessing the rightness or wrongness of donors and whether they are suitable. It is very important that public institutions have their own trustees who look at these things, and many of them—the large ones, especially—have ethics committees to do just that.

[Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)]

My Lords, although due diligence is indeed necessary, does the Minister agree that deep gratitude is owed to the philanthropists who support our cultural institutions? Does he also agree that, if fastidiousness is pursued to the ultimate, many of our cultural organisations will not be able to do the very valuable work that they do? Does he agree that, if the noble Earl’s severe audit had been applied to the Medici, the Renaissance would not have occurred?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I do not think that that was the only reason for the Renaissance, but I take the noble Lord’s point. It is worth putting on record that this country has been extremely well served by philanthropists, including with respect to our great museums. I remind noble Lords that a quarter of the most visited museums in the world are in this country—and four of the top 10—at least partially because of the philanthropic gifts that the noble Lord mentioned. I am happy to put that on record.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister recognise that it is easier for national museums to attract these large philanthropic donors than for local and regional museums? We are well aware now that a number of local and regional museums endowed 150 or 200 years ago are now in severe difficulties as a result of cuts in government funding to local authorities. Is the DCMS actively concerned about the plight of some of our town and city museums around the country?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

As I have said a couple of times in the last two or three weeks, the museum sector is not affected by local authority cuts, to the extent that museums have found other methods of funding themselves. I think we should nail this one. The Mendoza report said that the funding for museums across the whole sector had been broadly flat. I take the noble Lord’s point that it is easier for a large national portfolio organisation to attract large philanthropic donations. That is not surprising, but it is exactly why Arts Council England, which we support, has made a big effort to spread its funding outside London. Last year, 70% of Arts Council England funding was awarded outside London.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

Does my noble friend the Minister know of any plans to review the Nobel Peace Prize, which as we all know is financed by the sale of munitions and explosives?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

As my noble friend knows, DCMS’s portfolio has grown dramatically in the last three years—but it does not yet include the Noble Peace Prize.

[Lord Turnberg (Lab)]

My Lords, the drug for which the Sackler family have, quite rightly, been pursued has created enormous damage in America and elsewhere. On the face of it, they knew all about what they were doing, which is a great tragedy. But I am not quite clear—perhaps the Minister can enlighten us—whether it has been proven beyond doubt in a court of law that they did know what they were doing. The family themselves are denying it.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I believe that they have made an out-of-court settlement in one state in the US but that the case continues in many other states. It would not be appropriate for me to talk about a legal case that is ongoing.

Festival of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in 2022

Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts

Monday 18th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Goddard of Stockport]

To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps they are taking to ensure that the museum sector is able to support the proposed Festival of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in 2022.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, the festival of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is an exciting opportunity to celebrate creativity and innovation across the UK in 2022. The festival is still in the early stages of planning. However, we expect our excellent and vibrant museum sector to play an important role.

[Lord Goddard of Stockport (LD)]

The Minister kept his face straight there. I thank him for that Answer, but does he agree that there are many important collections up and down the country owned by local councils, whose funding has been decimated and which are now being forced to make impossible choices, in some cases leading to the disposal of those collections? Hertfordshire is recommending 90% disposal. The collections are based on local towns and cities; they are regional assets and parts of the town and place. We cannot lose them. The mark of a civilised society is how we treat our citizens. We have not been doing that very well for the past four years. Does the Minister agree that we should protect the history and heritage of this country? Once it is gone, we cannot get it back.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I definitely agree with the noble Lord that we should protect the heritage of this country. He also mentioned impossible choices. The Mendoza review showed that the museums and galleries sector is vibrant and that over the past 10 years—the 10 years of the review period—public funding to museums across the country was broadly flat. Some individual local authority museums have particular problems and each case is unique, but Arts Council England is helping them, and by and large most museums are in good shape. Hertfordshire has agreed that any money raised by purchases will be invested in the remaining collection in the first instance, including in the conservation and potential move of the nationally significant sculptures that it possesses. It has fully considered the Museum Association’s code of ethics.

[Baroness Bull (CB)]

My Lords, recent history shows that these large-scale national events work best when they are led by visionaries, are connected with communities, are delivered by independent bodies, and—with great respect—politicians stay clear. Let us contrast the Millennium Dome with the astounding success of the London 2012 Festival, Hull City of Culture or the 14-18 NOW commemoration. Who has been appointed to key leadership roles for this festival? What delivery mechanisms will be put in place to balance accountability to the funding body with genuine curatorial freedom?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I agree with the noble Baroness that it is better if Ministers stay out of it. That is why the intention is to have a commissioning body that is independent of government. It will have £120 million of extra money to spend, but nobody has been appointed to it yet.

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend include the world of horticulture, given our magnificent gardens and parks and the world-class flower shows we have each year?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, while I have great sympathy with my noble friend, I have just said that the delivery body will be independent of Ministers. However, I am sure it will take note of what my noble friend said.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, I grant that there must be this arm’s-length relationship between the organisation of the festival and the Government. However, when the body that oversees the festival is set up, can we find a way of ensuring that it is reminded that this is neither 1851 nor 1951 and that Britain is a much more diverse country now than it was then, so that we can celebrate diversity in the course of this festival? If we are looking for someone to lead and spearhead those who organise this festival, as the noble Baroness said, may I recommend someone who I know will be free from the summer and who has proven organisational ability and a great inspirational character, namely Mr Warren Gatland?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

This is meant to be a cultural festival—

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

It is not a sporting festival. I completely agree with the noble Lord’s previous point about diversity. Arts Council England is paying particular attention to that. He will have seen that the annual report mentioned diversity in the arts and culture sector. Equality, Diversity and the Creative Case was published in February this year.

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)]

My Lords, why is the title of this proposed festival as it is? In 1951 we had a Festival of Britain. We are now talking about a festival of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Surely it would be more appropriate to have a festival of the United Kingdom.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I do not know why that title was selected but it seems to explain exactly what the festival is all about.

[Lord McNally (LD)]

My Lords, is this new festival an opportunity to establish a museum of Brexit, where the record of this Government can be preserved for future generations? Would not the advantage be that there is already a perfect location in the Chamber of Horrors?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I imagine that the noble Lord wants it to be publicly funded, but I do not think that that is necessarily what the public want.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Does my noble friend agree that local authorities that disperse or sell collections, or propose to close galleries, are in fact repudiating the past and those who have been kind enough and benevolent enough to give? Does he agree that it is something that should on all occasions be avoided?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

No, my Lords, I do not agree. Sometimes museums have to do what the Mendoza review suggested—that is, to have a dynamic collections policy, which in some cases means getting rid of some pieces which are in storage and are not being preserved well because they are not in ideal conditions, and using the money raised to preserve the best items in their collection and to buy new items which might interest a younger audience.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

Will the festival take place before or after the general election that is due in 2022?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The plans have not been made but I believe that the festival will take place across the whole year, so it will happen either side of the general election, if it takes place in 2022. Many other interesting events will be taking place, not least Her Majesty’s Platinum Jubilee, the 100th anniversary of the BBC and the 75th anniversary of the Edinburgh Festival Fringe.

Mobile Roaming (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts

Thursday 14th March 2019 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 4 February be approved.

Relevant document: 17th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee (Sub-Committee B)

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, I provided a brief outline of the Government’s proposals in my answers to the Urgent Question in the House on 7 February. Since then, these regulations have been agreed in the other place. I am aware that the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee reported on this instrument on 21 February. It raised the impacts of inadvertent roaming, the loss of surcharge-free roaming and one-sided regulation as areas of interest, all of which I will respond to in my speech. I am also aware that the noble Lord opposite intends to move an amendment to this instrument, and I will comment on that when I have heard his arguments and those of other noble Lords.

We have been clear about the proposed changes to the law on mobile roaming since first publishing a technical notice on 13 September last year. That notice, subsequently updated, provides clear information to consumers, businesses and mobile operators on what the UK’s exit from the EU means for mobile roaming law. It also outlined what this instrument aims to do.

As I set out in this House on 7 February, within the constraints of leaving the EU, this instrument delivers the best possible outcome for all mobile users across the UK in the event of no deal. Mobile roaming is a service enabling customers to use their mobile devices to make calls, send texts and, increasingly, use data services outside the UK. Roaming offers are underpinned by commercial agreements between UK operators and operators in other countries, allowing British customers to use overseas networks at an agreed price. In the European Union and the EEA, the roaming regulation sets that agreed price. Only by limiting these wholesale rates can operators guarantee surcharge-free roaming to their customers. Obviously, the UK cannot impose limits on the wholesale rates charged by European operators once we leave the EU: only a central authority with power over all operators can do that. Despite that, the Government have examined all possible options to continue surcharge-free roaming in the event of leaving the EU without a deal.

We considered legislation to require that UK mobile operators continue to provide customers with surcharge-free roaming after exit, but if European mobile operators decide to start charging British mobile companies higher wholesale prices, which the UK has no authority to prevent, the costs of having to absorb the extra charges without harmonised wholesale charges may lead to roaming becoming unaffordable for many operators. This would lead to one of two outcomes. Either roaming services would be removed from some packages used by customers, or mobile services as a whole would become more expensive to compensate for the increased costs. In effect, consumers who do not travel would have to subsidise those who do. Neither of those outcomes is fair for consumers. We therefore concluded that it would not be feasible to guarantee surcharge-free roaming in the event of a no-deal exit from the EU.

However, leaving without a deal would not prevent UK mobile operators making and honouring commercial arrangements with mobile operators in the EU and beyond to deliver the services their customers expect, including roaming arrangements. The availability and pricing of mobile roaming in the EU in a no-deal exit would be a commercial question for the mobile operators. I am pleased to repeat that the main mobile operators—Three, EE, O2 and Vodafone, which cover more than 85% of mobile subscribers—have already said they have no current plans to change their approach to mobile roaming after the UK leaves the EU. The Government and, I am sure, the whole House welcome those statements. We want to reassure consumers further by giving them the best possible protection in the event of leaving the EU with no deal. We are doing that by retaining those protections not dependent on our membership of the single market.

We are protecting consumers by giving them control of their bills. The Government are legislating to make sure that the requirement on mobile operators to apply a financial limit on mobile data usage while abroad is retained in UK law. The limit would be set at £45 per monthly billing period, which is equivalent to the limit currently in place expressed in euros. After reaching this limit, customers are not able to consume more data unless they make an active choice to continue. This will apply worldwide, not just in the EU and the EEA.

We are also protecting consumers by letting them keep track of their data use. That is why this statutory instrument retains existing measures to ensure that customers receive alerts at 80% and 100% of data usage. Again, this will benefit customers travelling anywhere in the world.

Thirdly, we are protecting consumers in Northern Ireland. The EU roaming regulations require operators to take reasonable steps to protect customers from paying roaming charges for inadvertently accessed roaming services. This may include providing special tariffs, apps and easily accessible information so that customers can avoid incurring charges. We will be keeping obligations on mobile companies to help customers avoid paying charges for inadvertently accessed roaming services.

Retaining protection measures not linked to membership of the single market means clarity and certainty for consumers and businesses. These measures make sure that mobile users are able to manage their spending and data usage. They are working well for consumers at present, they can work well after the UK leaves the EU, and this instrument therefore retains these provisions. The retained provisions will also continue to be enforceable by the regulator, Ofcom, after we leave the EU. The Government are committed to ensuring that the law on mobile roaming will continue to function after we leave the EU. These regulations will help to do this and I commend them to the House. I beg to move.

Amendment to the Motion

Moved by

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for introducing this SI and for his very clear explanation of the issues that were raised by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, to which I may want to return. The department has had a good reputation in recent years for steering through some of the most complicated issues affecting modern society, concerning the internet, communications and related issues, with some skill. It is good that it is planning and thinking through some of the issues that have engaged this House, particularly in recent legislation concerning such issues as data protection and internet safety. We look forward to further work on that, with a White Paper coming soon. I never know what “soon” means, but the Minister is nodding so it will presumably be before Christmas.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

It is soon, verging on imminent.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

Variations on a theme are always interesting. However, I think that in recent weeks the department has not covered itself in glory. I thought that the decision on portability was wrong. Having seen the negotiations about that I know that there is considerable consumer interest in being able to take content that one has paid for on holiday and to use it in other territories. To find that being taken away after such a short period of time is going to be a disaster. I think that this issue about roaming is also going to be a problem for the Government when people realise what has happened and what decisions have been taken. I mention this because I want to go a little further into some of the background, although I know there has been some change and I hope that the Minister will flesh that out when he comes to respond.

We had a big discussion about roaming. I like this word “roaming”. It brings visions of going with one’s beloved at the end of the day with the sunset and enjoying whatever one does in those circumstances. Of course, it is not true when you cannot get the mobile signal that will allow you to communicate with your beloved these days. You cannot get it in London, let alone in the far reaches and romantic parts of the country. I do not know why I said that, but it gets us into a broader area of discussion and debate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, we use strange language in your Lordships’ House: we do not say “no”, we say “not content”; we “adjourn at leisure” and we have “Motions of regret”. On this occasion regret is the appropriate term because I suspect that if this statutory instrument is introduced, large numbers of UK citizens who wish to travel in EU 27 countries will very much regret the loss of the benefits from the EU’s roaming regulation 531/2012 and the subsequent amendments.

No longer when we go to those 27 countries will we be able to “roam like at home” with guaranteed surcharge-free roaming. No longer, as we heard from the Minister, will UK mobile operators be protected by the regulations on what the mobile operators in the EU 27 countries—and the EEA countries of Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway—can charge our operators for providing roaming services. There will be, as one website put it, a “wild west” where roaming charges are determined by commercial reasons and the relationships that exist between providers, which may lead to various preferential rates.

I therefore regret that we will return to a myriad of prices depending on which country we choose to visit, which supplier we use and which tariff or bundle we have. That said, I put on record that I welcome the decision by the Government, covered in this SI, to replicate the €50 financial limit. I note that the Government have translated that to £45, which is actually a worse pound-to-euro exchange rate than currently exists—the implication is that if we have a no-deal Brexit the situation will get worse, which I am pretty confident it will.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The noble Lord will find that the pound will fall, which of course benefits foreign tourism.

[Lord Foster of Bath]

I do not for a minute deny that there are some benefits, but overall it is certainly not good news. I was praising the Government; let me continue, because I also welcome that within this SI mobile operators will be required to give the alert to users when 80% and then 100% of their data allocation has been used.

There are some pretty obvious questions for the Minister. As he knows only too well, having referred to it himself, the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee has posed a number of questions. There is one in particular about which it would be helpful to hear what the Minister has to say:

“The House may wish to invite the Minister to explain why the possible effects of removing the EU guarantee of surcharge-free roaming were not evaluated, and press for further information on the likely impact on individual and business users”.


I hereby ask him, and hope that he will respond. I would also like to know what efforts the Government have made to broker some kind of deal between the UK mobile phone operators and the relatively small number of operators in the EU 27 countries. It would surely be disappointing if we were to hear that absolutely no efforts had been made.

I know that the Minister wearies whenever I raise BEREC—the Body of European Regulators for Electronic Communications—in your Lordships’ House. Indeed, he is already yawning. He knows that this body, on which Ofcom—our own regulator—sits, played an absolutely vital role in bringing forward these welcome EU mobile roaming regulations. Even if we leave the EU and Ofcom is no longer a voting member, I am sure the Minister will accept that BEREC will be absolutely fundamental in determining any future changes to mobile roaming regulations, and that those changes will have a significant impact on us and on people in this country who wish to travel to the EU 27 countries.

Clearly, we should therefore be seeking to ensure the best possible relationship between Ofcom and BEREC in the future. As the Minister knows, that is the Government’s position. Indeed, on 7 January in the other place the Digital Minister said that,

“the Government recognise that Ofcom would benefit from the continued exchange of best practice with other regulators, and from the exchange of information about telecoms matters more generally”.—[Official Report, Commons, First Designated Legislation Committee, 7/1/19; col. 6.]

In the light of that, what steps have the Government taken in conjunction with Ofcom since I last raised this issue with the Minister to seek to sort out what the relationship is going to be following Brexit? I hope we will not get the answer that nothing has been done.

The Minister referred to the technical note that was issued on 13 September last year and which was updated subsequently, in which it says, interestingly and perhaps rather overoptimistically:

“In the likely event of a deal, surcharge-free roaming would continue to be guaranteed during the Implementation Period”.


However, it goes on to say—the Minister has referred to this already—that in the event of no deal:

“Some mobile operators (3, EE, O2 and Vodafone—which cover over 85% of mobile subscribers) have already said they have no current plans to change their approach to mobile roaming after the UK leaves the EU”.


Can the Minister explain exactly what “approach” means in this context?

I note a number of recent advertisements. For example, Three put out an advertisement on Tuesday saying:

“Remain roaming even if the law changes. We’ll let you Go Roam at no extra cost in Europe, just the same”.


Does that mean that Three has already done a contractual deal with the EU 27 mobile operators and knows what prices it will be charged? If Three can do it, why have the Government not worked with all the other operators to secure certainty for them? Can the Minister explain what EE meant when it told the BBC only a few days ago:

“We are working closely with government on this”?


Can he inform us what work is being done by the Government with EE and what benefit that will bring to British customers?

We note another issue raised by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. It drew our attention to the Explanatory Memorandum, which says:

“Mobile operators noted that absent a cap on the charges EU operators can apply to UK operators (as currently regulated by the EU), any increases in costs would likely be passed on to customers”.


It goes on to point out that the effects of all these changes could mean that,

“roaming services could be removed altogether from some customers”.

Can the Minister tell us what estimate the Government have made of that possibility that roaming might disappear altogether? It is certainly not covered in the impact assessment.

The technical note to which I have referred also advises UK citizens visiting EU 27 countries post Brexit to,

“be aware that Ofcom rules allow cancellation of your contract free-of-charge if your operator makes certain price increases”.

I gave the Minister advance notice that I would raise this matter, so I hope that he will be able to help us by saying what “certain price increases” enable us to cancel contracts and switch to another provider free of charge. The technical note cross-references Ofcom’s Guidance under General Condition C1—contract requirements. I confess that I simply could not understand a word of that document and what it means, so I went to other sources, and in particular to the Which? website, which was infinitely more helpful. That says:

“Rules set by the regulator Ofcom mean that customers can leave mobile, landline or broadband contracts penalty-free if a provider ups prices mid-contract if the rise is of ‘material detriment’, for example a rise that’s bigger than the RPI rate”.


Is Which? correct in defining material detriment as a rise bigger than the RPI rate? More importantly, I—and I am sure the House—would like to know whether that applies to a rise in mobile roaming rates while abroad. After all, that is a bolt-on to the contract that we all have with our providers, not the main contract. So the question is: if the main contract conditions for calls, texts and the use of mobile data remain the same but there is a significant increase in the cost of mobile roaming when in the EU, does the material detriment rule apply in those circumstances so we can switch contract and get a better deal with another supplier?

I look forward to the Minister’s response. While I was looking at the Which? website for help with some of these definitions, I noticed the words of Alex Neill of Which?, who said:

“Two-thirds of people think free roaming is important when travelling in Europe, so any return to sky-high charges for using mobile phones abroad would be a bitter blow for millions of consumers”.


That is why we should regret this SI if it ever has to come into force.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I am slightly surprised that I am on my feet already. I thank noble Lords for their contributions. I will try to ask their specific questions before coming on to the point in the amendment to the Motion.

The noble Lord, Lord Foster, made a general point about “regret” being the correct word in these circumstances. Of course it is obvious that “roam like at home” in the EU 27, which has been with us for 18 months, is a good thing for consumers, and I think that many of us who have been abroad in the EU 27 or possibly even the EEA countries have benefited from that. In fact, we have had that not just in the last 18 months; wholesale charges have been capped to some extent for nearly 10 years. Therefore, I agree that there are detriments. However, it is true that consumers are used to dealing with the absence of “roam like at home” in every other country in the world, and there are now many ways by which one can alleviate that, such as the increased use of wi-fi and apps that allow you to communicate over the internet—and of course the ultimate sanction is to switch roaming off. However, I accept that it is a useful thing.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, in speaking to his amendment to the Motion went a bit wide of the issue, as is his wont, but it was interesting nevertheless. He talked about roaming in the UK, which is a domestic issue, not the question of roaming when abroad. It is true that in previous debates—I remember debates with both noble Lords on the subject of domestic roaming—we have said that we were not in favour of it because it prevented investment and stopped competition, and it is true that in most countries roaming at home is not an accepted practice. However, we want to have high-quality mobile connectivity where people live, work and travel in this country, we have committed to extending geographic mobile coverage to 95% of the UK by 2022, and we are looking at ways to achieve that target.

Particularly in rural areas, it is possible to allow customers to be switched on to a network service if their provider has none. I can confirm to the noble Lord that the new statement of strategic priorities for Ofcom, which is our suggestions for what it should consider, has recommended that it further examine the costs and benefits of domestic roaming and to retain the option of requiring operators to introduce rural roaming.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Foster of Bath]

On that point, the Minister said that the operators have no plans to introduce charges. In fact, the government document I referred to said that they had no plans to change their approach. Can he guarantee that he has confirmation from the big four that they have no plans to introduce mobile roaming charges following a no-deal Brexit?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

We have had discussions with operators, and it is correct that they have said that they have no plans to do that after Brexit. They have not said that if they are charged increased charges by foreign operators, they will absorb all the costs ad infinitum, for the rest of time, irrespective of what they are. That is not an unreasonable position. The point is that since roaming as if at home has been introduced, consumer requirements have changed, what consumers want has changed, the methods and technology has changed and consumer data usage has changed. For example, I think there is four times as much data being consumed as phone calls. It is very difficult to compare the situation 10 years ago, before any caps came in, to what will happen now.

However, in this country, there is competition between operators, which does not exist in all European countries, so the competitive element is very much at the forefront of consumers’ minds, but we are not requiring operators to accept a differential status, a one-sided regulation. I shall come to that later. When the Regulatory Policy Committee considered the impact assessment, it said that it was satisfied that any impact on price changes will not be a direct result of this SI.

The noble Lord, Lord Foster, asked who we have consulted. We have consulted the big four operators O2, Vodafone, EE and Three, the mobile virtual network operators Sky, Virgin Media and Lebara, trade bodies Mobile UK, the Broadband Stakeholder Group and many consumer groups. He also asked what were the views of the mobile network operators. They expressed similar concerns about this scenario. Of course they were concerned about not being party to the EU roaming regulation, but that is a function of leaving the single market. They did not believe that the regulation mandating surcharge-free roaming could and should endure, for the reasons I mentioned, but I confirm that they said that, because of customer demand, they have no current plans to reintroduce roaming surcharges. That is not an unlimited guarantee forever, as I think I said.

As for BEREC, I agree entirely with both my honourable friend in the other place and the noble Lord, Lord Foster, that our relationship with the European regulator has been beneficial not only to us but to BEREC. We are one of the leading regulators in the EU. Of course, if there is an agreement and an implementation period, the Government will seek arrangements with the EU or BEREC and, if there is no deal, it will be desirable for the Government to seek participation in BEREC. We have agreed in government—not just in DCMS but more widely—that that is beneficial. We will therefore continue making overtures to BEREC to try to have an arrangement that will involve not full membership but, if you like, associate membership where we can contribute our views.

I turn to the amendment to the Motion, which implies that we should not have done what we said we would and capped roaming charges. I explained in my opening speech why the UK cannot retain surcharge-free roaming in law in the event of no deal. The instrument recognises this by correcting deficiencies in retained EU law and removing rules on wholesale and retail charges that are simply unworkable if we leave the EU without a deal.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, prayed in aid the recommendations made by consumer bodies. As I said, we have had a number of conversations with them and provided detail of those interactions to the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee in advance of its report. I mentioned that it noted the benefits of surcharge-free roaming, but the fact is that when the UK is outside the single market, we will not be able to control the charges levied on UK mobile operators by their European counterparts, because this Parliament has no authority over them. The consumer organisations recognise that. For example, Which? stated on its website on 7 February 2019:

“In order to keep ‘roam like at home’ going, it is likely a similar mutual cap”—


by which it means on wholesale prices—

“would have to be agreed for it to be cost effective for mobile operators”.

Let us be clear on the implications of the noble Lord’s amendment to make provisions to retain surcharge-free roaming. The policy would explicitly put British companies at a disadvantage, compared with foreign competitors, by capping their retail charges but allowing EU operators the freedom to charge them whatever wholesale rate they like. It would put roaming at risk for some operators, thus removing competition. It could therefore force British network operators to increase their overall prices to recoup the foreign charges, so the policy could increase consumers’ costs.

However, it is worse than that. It would mean that people who choose to remain in this country are subsidising those travelling to Europe. The policy would increase the risk of legal uncertainty. Lastly, it would penalise heavily smaller mobile virtual network operators, because they use the physical networks of the main operators and therefore must accept the increased costs without a corresponding network usage to offer EU operators in return. To sum up, the policy could increase costs, have a negative impact on consumers and increase the legal risks around future roaming policy.

Which? suggests that the UK should seek to include mobile roaming in a deal with the EU and in trade deals with other countries. As government Ministers first set out in Answers to Written Questions last June, mobile roaming could form part of any trade negotiation we have with other countries after we leave the European Union, and the Government are exploring all options. Any arrangements on mobile roaming would be subject to negotiations. In the meantime, as I said before, there is no reason to prevent commercial negotiations between UK and EU operators.

For reasons noble Lords will understand, it is too early to detail exactly the future arrangement with our European partners. In the event of a no-deal exit, the amendments in the SI are essential. They will ensure legal clarity for consumers and businesses, retain all operable parts of current roaming law and protect consumers in the event of a no-deal exit. Meanwhile, I repeat that the largest four operators have no current plans to reintroduce charges, so on exit day and thereafter there will be no change.

I hope therefore that we can all agree that it is in the clear interests of British consumers and businesses that this SI is in place in the event of a no-deal outcome. In the light of my remarks, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment and I hope that these regulations will be approved.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I am grateful to the Minister for a full and wide-ranging debate. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Foster, for adding to my comments on the amendment so that we could debate and discuss it.

I am left with two thoughts. First, this Government have not been slow to interfere in a market where they felt that the competitive environment was not as perfect as it could be; I am thinking of the price cap brought in for domestic energy, which was accompanied by a commitment to look more widely at how prices are set in the market. That is not terribly different from mobile operators relying, as they do, on those who generate and those who sell. The two sides of the energy equation have analogues in what we are talking about here in mobile telephony. I take the general point that, after consideration, the Government decided that this was probably not the best decision to take, but I wonder exactly how they have balanced the interests of operators—both small and large—against those of consumers. I wonder whether we have missed an issue there. The consumer groups the Minister mentioned were unanimous in their view that there was a case for a better regulatory approach. At this stage, the arguments are pretty finely balanced.

Secondly, although I was glad to hear about the measure to look at both home roaming and the wider context, including 5G and all the other issues that must be addressed, Ofcom’s capacity will be squeezed. The Minister did not provide a timescale for the consideration or when the results would come back to this House, but we can look at that outside this session. I hope that there will be time for that. I want it recorded that I am glad that, at last, there is a solution to some of the not-spots and our difficulties with our mobile telephony. We will support the Government seriously pushing Ofcom to come up with a proper plan for this going forward. With those thoughts, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Public Authorities: Algorithms

Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts

Thursday 14th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Clement-Jones]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what consideration they have given to the standards and certifications required for the algorithms used in decision-taking by public authorities and agencies.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, last year the Government published the Data Ethics Framework, which sets out clear principles and standards for how data is used in the public sector—an important tool guiding the ethical use of algorithms and AI technologies. The Government have also recently set up the Centre for Data Ethics and Innovation, which will provide independent, expert advice on the governance of data and AI technology. The centre’s first two projects will study the use of data in shaping people’s online experiences and the potential for bias in decisions made using algorithms. This work and the centre’s future work will play a leading role in ensuring transparency and accountability in the ethical use and design of algorithms.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, some 53 local authorities and about a quarter of police authorities are now using algorithms for prediction, risk assessment and assistance in decision-making. The Centre for Data Ethics and Innovation, for all its virtues, is not a regulator. The Data Ethics Framework does not cover all aspects of algorithms. As the Minister will know, it was quite difficult finding a Minister to respond to this Question. Is it not high time that we appointed a Minister—as recommended by the Commons Science and Technology Committee—who is responsible for making sure that standards are set for algorithm use in local authorities and the public sector and that those standards enforce certain principles such as transparency, fairness, audit and explainability and set up a kitemark so that our citizens are protected?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, there was no difficulty in finding a Minister in this House: answering the noble Lord’s very sensible Question was pinned on me at a very early stage. The point about the Centre for Data Ethics and Innovation, which will publish its interim report on algorithms in the summer—relatively soon—is that it will look across the whole area and highlight what should be done in regulation terms. It will be one of the things that we expect the centre to look at, so the genuine concerns raised by the noble Lord can be considered at by this forward-looking body.

[Lord Geddes (Con)]

Would my noble friend explain what an algorithm is? Should I be concerned about it?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I am not an expert, but I am sure that the noble Lord can go back to his school days and remember from his study of Greek that Euclid was producing algorithms in 300 BC —he will remember that this was for finding the greatest common divisor of two numbers. Essentially, an algorithm is a set of rules that precisely defines a sequence of operations. Today, they are used mainly by computers for calculations, machine learning and artificial intelligence.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, clearly, I must voice the general opinion expressed in other ways in appreciation of the Minister’s reply to a very pernickety noble friend of his, who is sitting on the Bench behind him. We have heard reports of information that will come from the data ethics people in the summer, and we have a White Paper on online harms coming very soon and then a period of consultation. I always seem to be stuck at the Dispatch Box acknowledging that the answer to the question I really want to ask will come in months’ or perhaps years’ time. The noble Lord who put the question is quite right: things are happening in the field of technology now, with all those local councils and police forces using algorithms to forecast possible courses of action and take policy decisions in light of what they think will happen. We are told that consultative experiences are about to happen, but is it “when” or “if”? It would be good if the Minister could somehow bypass or short-circuit the labyrinthine things that are happening elsewhere and give us some reassurance that certification for things which are already happening in the field and shaping our future can be looked at critically.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

It is not completely fair to say that nothing has happened. In areas where personal data is used, for example, that has to be used lawfully under the aegis of the Data Protection Act. The Information Commissioner recently said that she was minded to issue guidelines on the use of data in respect of children. The Information Commissioner is a powerful regulator who is looking at the use of personal data. We also have the Digital Economy Act, and we have set up the Data Ethics Framework, which allows public bodies to use the data which informs algorithms in a way that is principled and transparent. Work is going on, but I take the noble Lord’s point that it has to be looked at fairly urgently.

[Baroness Grender (LD)]

My Lords, when the Chancellor asks the Competition and Markets Authority to scrutinise the transparency of Google and Facebook, are the Government confident that they are applying the same rules of transparency to public services in the UK? Is not waiting for an interim report a little bit too late, when the HART system used by Durham Police to predict reoffending, for example, is already well under way? Does the Minister accept that failure to properly scrutinise these kinds of algorithms risks the racial bias revealed by the investigation into the Northpointe system in Florida?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I understand that there are issues about facial recognition systems, which are often basically inaccurate. The essential point is that biometric data is classified as a special category of data under the Data Protection Act and the police and anyone else who uses it has to do so within the law.

Brexit: Museums and Galleries

Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts

Monday 4th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lee of Trafford (LD)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and declare an interest as the chairman of the Association of Leading Visitor Attractions.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, DCMS is working with our world-leading national museums and galleries in England to evaluate the potential impacts of Brexit and supporting them as they develop and implement their plans. Due to the ongoing uncertainty, some national museums and galleries have implemented elements of their plans for Brexit, particularly around the movement of objects in March and April.

[Lord Lee of Trafford]

Is the Minister aware of the sickening abuse suffered by some front-of-house EU nationals at a number of our great cultural institutions, making many reluctant to wear name badges? That aside, there are three areas of particular concern: the ability to recruit and retain staff, particularly those with language skills; the worry that overseas visitors may give the UK a miss this year, until Brexit issues are clarified; and, importantly, whether DCMS and the Treasury will replace the EU culture funds vital to many building projects and exchange programmes.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, on the noble Lord’s first point about staff being abused, we were aware of that, particularly after the result of the referendum was announced, but we are not aware of it recently. I should make it absolutely clear that it is deplorable, unacceptable and should not happen and that we welcome foreign nationals working in and visiting our museums. It is possible that tourism may go down, but we are optimistic. In fact, VisitBritain forecasts that visits will grow by 3.3% this year, which is similar to the average rate.

Turning to European cultural funds, for the museum and gallery sector these are remarkably small. One or two individual museums have had European funding and we will guarantee to support funding until the end of the multiannual financial framework. However, to put it into perspective, all public funding for museums and galleries is about £844 million a year. The biggest European fund, Horizon 2020, has given €14 million in the entire seven-year multiannual framework.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend accept that many of the greatest exhibitions in London and the provinces depend on loans from kindred institutions in Europe and elsewhere. Will he give an assurance that this will be at the forefront of the Government’s thinking? If some of these wonderful exhibitions ceased to be, scholarship would suffer, our museums and galleries would suffer, and we would suffer.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I completely agree with my noble friend and this has been one of the issues that we have discussed with the museums and galleries. In fact, some of the contingency plans I mentioned are about exactly that: the movement of objects. Museums are using a different route, not taking the short cross-channel crossings, and are allowing more time for that.

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke (Lab)]

My Lords, further to the point about the disincentive for people coming to the United Kingdom to work in the industry, whether in galleries, museums or the hospitality sector, £1 spent in a remote community can generate a further £7. However, that requires people to be available to work in hotels, shops and galleries. There is a clear disincentive for them to come. It is six weeks until Easter and the hospitality industry is gearing up for the next season, but it is already saying that it is unable to recruit the young people who make up the backbone of the industry. What will the Government do about that, especially if there is the supposed 3.3% increase in inbound tourism? People will not come back if they do not get good service.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I completely agree, and that is why, as I said in an Answer on tourism last week, the tourism sector deal concentrates on skills, recruitment and avoiding a high turnover in jobs. It is trying to make those jobs more long-term to provide the service that visitors rightly expect. The third-quarter figures were down, particularly for short-haul visitors, but they have rebounded. The Office for National Statistics reported a 4% increase in October.

[Baroness Grender (LD)]

My Lords, given last week’s finding of the employment tribunal regarding the National Gallery 27, which supported their legal claim to worker status—having been denied it for decades—does the Minister regret that precious resource from a DCMS body was spent in legal action to justify shoddy work practices? Will he ensure that their claim is settled soon and that the National Gallery is held to account for it? What advice are the Government now giving to other bodies using taxpayers’ money to apply the worst practices of the gig economy?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I am not sure that the noble Baroness’s representation is completely correct. The case, as I understand it, was about workers and the employment tribunal has made a ruling. We expect all our arm’s-length bodies to obey the law. If there is a dispute over that, that is what employment tribunals are for. They are called arm’s-length bodies because their trustees have to arrange and run their organisations in accordance with the law. The Government should not get involved.

[Baroness Hooper (Con)]

My Lords, I am a former trustee of National Museums Liverpool; I believe the Museum of Liverpool is still the only national museum outside London. I thank my noble friend for reassuring us on the replacement of European Union funding, but can he also reassure us on the issuing of visas for experts, researchers and students, who make so much of our museum opportunities?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I am not sure that the Museum of Liverpool is the only national museum outside London; there are the Science Museum Group, the Royal Armouries and the V&A that has just opened in Dundee. I have probably missed one. The point about visas is important, which is why the Government have allowed people to come for three months on a tourist visa. If they want to stay and work in the UK, they will be able to do so for 36 months, subject to security and identity checks.

Theatre Tickets: London

Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts

Thursday 28th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Glasgow]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have any plans to address the cost of theatre tickets in London and any effect this has on theatregoers.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, commercial theatres in London are responsible for setting their own ticketing price structures. Theatres supported by the Arts Council also operate independently of government and have autonomy in setting their prices. However, many theatres in London operate schemes to encourage more people to attend performances through free or discounted tickets and audience numbers have continued to grow.

[The Earl of Glasgow (LD)]

My Lords, as the Government are almost certainly aware, West End theatre is thriving at the moment. However, the price of a decent seat in the stalls, for example, has nearly doubled in the past three years. The Government may not be aware that the main beneficiaries of these higher prices are not so much the producers of the plays and musicals, but rather those who control access to theatres: the theatre owners, the ticket sellers and the discredited secondary ticket market. London theatres are already becoming too expensive for many regular theatregoers and I hope that the Government will take this issue very seriously. As we all know, one of the many reasons that people come to London is its theatres, but they are gradually becoming too expensive for anyone to be able to attend the major plays.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, the noble Earl has highlighted an issue at the very top of the range. Some of those ticket prices have gone up and I think the average top ticket now costs more than £100. However, there are many examples of theatres making a big effort to offer cheap prices. For example, the Donmar Warehouse offers free tickets to those aged under 25 each month via a ballot, while the Royal Court Theatre has discounted nights. There are many examples of where theatre seats can be obtained for much less than the top prices.

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend bear in mind that some of us wonder what this has to do with the Government? In saying that, if people do not go to the theatre in London, surely he should be promoting the wonderful provincial opportunities that we have in this country, be they in Manchester, Leeds, York or Newcastle—and indeed, in view of the Question asked by the noble Earl, in Glasgow as well.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I completely agree with my noble friend. That is why the Arts Council spends so much money—an increasing proportion in fact—outside London. We are trying to promote the arts in general outside London and the Arts Council is taking very proactive steps to do that.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, has the Minister seen the study by the National Campaign for the Arts which shows that ticket prices in all areas of the arts are rising at a rate well above inflation because of the reliance on earning money from the public through ticket prices? The result is that the demographic has narrowed and attendance overall falls, while regional inequalities are exacerbated. Will the Government now seriously consider increasing public funding to address these concerns?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The Government spend just under £0.5 billion a year on the arts, along with providing £860 million of tax relief for the creative industries, so we are doing a fairly large amount already. My figures are slightly different. UK Theatre has advised that in real terms—thus taking inflation into account—the overall average price being paid for a ticket has risen by 2% since 2013.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)]

My Lords, I remind the House of my interests as in the register. I wonder if the Minister agrees with me—I think he does, because he has virtually said it—that it is very misleading to look just at headline ticket prices. It is true that London theatres are expensive if you want the best seats in the stalls on a Saturday night, but it is possible to go to the theatre in London for quite modest sums. I also ask him to confirm that putting on a live performance of any kind, particularly at scale, is extremely expensive and very difficult to achieve, requiring a great variety of skills and talents. The more we support it, the more likely we are to find homes for all our young people who might be looking to those industries for jobs in the future.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I completely agree with the noble Baroness. As I said, the Arts Council specifically is looking at trying to increase the diversity not only of audiences but of people who work in the industry. For example, we will imminently announce the Youth Performance Partnerships, a scheme for five regional hubs for performance and drama. It will reach up to 10,000 young people over the next three academic years.

[Lord Moynihan (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as co-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Ticket Abuse. Given the lead this House has taken in delivering effective consumer protection legislation against unscrupulous ticket touts, will my noble friend the Minister do everything possible to promote face-value exchanges for ticketing to address the continuing blatant disregard of the law by companies such as Viagogo?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I absolutely agree with my noble friend, and I believe enforcement action has been taken against Viagogo. It is not 100% certain that it has complied with the court order, in which case it will be taken back to court. We take it seriously and, as my noble friend knows, have taken measures to crack down on the worst abuses in secondary ticketing, such as bots.

[Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury (LD)]

My Lords, I pick up on the question from the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope. So many of these smash hits playing on the London stage and so much of the talent, both front and back of house, come through the regional subsidised sector. However, it is struggling, partly because of local government funding cuts. Can the Minister assure the House that funding to this sector through the Arts Council and theatre tax relief will be protected in the upcoming spending review? I declare an interest as a trustee of the Lowry.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

There are 186 National Portfolio theatres in the country, the vast majority of which are not in London. As for the spending review, we will advocate as hard as we can for the arts.

Online Safety

Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts

Tuesday 26th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Massey of Darwen]

To ask Her Majesty's Government what action they are taking, in the light of concerns over child bullying and suicide arising from online activity, to strengthen controls over internet providers.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have been clear that more needs to be done to tackle online harms, including cyber-bullying and suicide and self-harm content, and that the internet companies have a responsibility to their users. The forthcoming White Paper on online harms will set out a range of legislative and non-legislative measures to keep UK users safe online.

[Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for that helpful response. As he said, we are constantly bombarded with stories of suicide, self-harm and bullying on the internet. What can the Government do to co-ordinate efforts to combat such activity online? In doing so, are parents and children involved in discussions on co-ordinating initiatives? Do the Government recognise the importance of not only protecting but empowering children to be resilient and aware of the danger of the internet so that these terrible things do not happen?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

Obviously, I completely agree about the importance of this subject. There is a growing realisation that despite what the big social media companies say they are doing, it is not enough. Hardly anything is more important than protecting children. We support an open and free internet—we think that it is good for the economy, human rights and free speech—but we acknowledge that the Government have a duty to make sure that social media and big tech companies are held to account. We will put out the online harms White Paper to do that. On involving young people in discussions and increasing their resilience, my noble friend Lord Agnew introduced what the Department for Education is doing for relationships education, sex education and health education in secondary schools. The proposed guidance and regulations cover subjects such as how to stay safe online, critically considering information and how people present themselves online, rights and responsibilities, how data is gathered, shared and used, the benefits of balancing time spent online and other important areas, such as consent.

[Baroness Benjamin (LD)]

My Lords, an NSPCC survey found that six out of 10 parents do not think that social networks protect children from inappropriate content, such as self-harm and suicide. Nine out of 10 parents support the regulation of social networks to make them legally responsible for protecting children because, unfortunately, many parents lack the knowledge and confidence to protect their children effectively from online threats. What are the Government doing to encourage and improve digital literacy, especially among parents? Will the Government consider introducing age verification on social media sites as soon as possible to keep our children safe?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I do not want to give anything away but the noble Baroness has set out many of the reasons for bringing forward the White Paper. I agree with how the public feel. It is a question of building trust in these big companies if the benefits are to continue. We will cover education in the White Paper—that has already been talked about—including for parents. The UK Council for Internet Safety has already developed a framework to equip children and young people for digital life and a practical guide for parents, but we will see more on that subject in the White Paper.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, the White Paper has been amply referred to; we all look forward to it. I was at a seminar led by the Secretary of State the other day, where he made very high claims for it. He said that things have never been done like this before—that is, in a way that will have an impact on the whole world of IT. He set his standards very high indeed so we will be watching to see whether the proposals match his great statements. I worry that whatever we propose from within our own geography, not just on social media but on global social media, will depend on similar responses from other parts of the world. We have an international treaty to limit nuclear weapons. Knowing what we now know, is it not time that we started an initiative to bring the international community on board and into the conversation, recognising that this is a universal problem that needs a global response?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I agree, which is why we are already consulting with our international partners. There are different views of how the internet should be taken forward, but for child protection and the more egregious things that social media companies do, there is an issue of internationalism, not least how regulations are enforced. That is something we are considering, and one of the benefits of doing it in the traditional way of having a Green Paper, a White Paper and then legislation is that we will continue to have consultation with noble Lords, which we are prepared to listen to. We will set out the views of where we think we are going, but we are open to consultation as well.

[The Lord Bishop of Chelmsford]

My Lords, instead of simply—and importantly—mitigating the harms done on the internet, might we consider a step change about designing the whole thing differently? Does the Minister agree that, instead of thinking about Facebook, Twitter and the like as platforms, if we thought about them as public spaces, required to have a duty of care like any other public space and be regulated accordingly, we would find ourselves in a different place? Is this something the Government are considering?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I agree with the right reverend Prelate, and that is something the Government are considering.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I welcome the response that Matt Hancock has given to the father of 14 year-old Molly Russell, who took her life in 2017, having visited one of these suicide sites. That was a year in which the suicide rate among young females increased by 38%. As long ago as 7 December 2006, I asked the Government to amend the Suicide Act 1961 to enable the,

“banning of internet sites which may incite people to, or advise people on how to, commit suicide”.—[Official Report, 7/12/2006; col. WA 157.]

This is an issue I have raised on a dozen occasions since then, along with the noble Baroness, Lady Massey. While I welcome the White Paper and legislation, will the Minister confirm that this is an urgent issue, which ought to be dealt with as expeditiously as possible?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I agree that it is extremely important; we should expect social media companies to have responsibility, and we should hold them to account. The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care has met social media companies, and written to them on this issue. He had a round table on 7 February to discuss what more can be done, and his department will be hosting a follow-up round table in two months to review progress, so they are taking it seriously. In addition, bearing in mind what the right reverend Prelate said, we are thinking about those issues, as the noble Lord will see when the White Paper comes out.

Libraries: Closures

Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts

Tuesday 19th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Pinnock]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of the closure of local libraries in England since 2015.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, while the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport does not record details of public library closures for councils in England, it monitors changes to library service provision throughout England. If DCMS receives representations that changes agreed by a council might mean that that council is failing to meet its statutory duty to provide a comprehensive and efficient library service, it carefully considers the evidence before deciding whether a local inquiry is needed.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

I thank the Minister for his reply. He will know that the Government set up the Libraries Taskforce, which produced an action plan in 2016. I thought it was quite an admirable report, which stated:

“Libraries change lives for the better”.


It included reference to tackling social isolation and saving the NHS an estimated £30 million a year. Can the Minister tell the House how libraries can improve lives when in the last year alone £30 million less was spent on local libraries and a further 127 were closed?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Baroness that libraries are important. We certainly think that good libraries are a valuable asset. They strengthen communities and become community hubs. We agree that we should make sure we monitor the role local authorities have in providing a comprehensive and efficient library service. It is not helpful just to look at straight numbers of openings and closings. Sometimes it is the right thing to close a library and to produce a better, more centralised library that is in partnership with other local community areas. We support the idea of it and monitor very carefully the statutory duty local authorities have.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, the i recently quoted a librarian who spends much of her time helping with universal credit claims. She said:

“People talk about cutting library services without really acknowledging we’re doing a lot to prop up services that haven’t been provided by the Jobcentre”.


Will the Government now acknowledge and fund this vital work that libraries are doing to prop up the universal credit scheme?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I take the noble Baroness’s point. Libraries do more than just the traditional providing of books. The role of libraries has changed because the nature of society has changed with the internet. That is why we funded libraries to have access to the internet so that people who do not have it can get it, and over 99% have. I agree that in some cases libraries fulfil roles that other public services used to do. That is why, as I said, we monitor local authority provision, but we have to remember that this is a devolved responsibility. Local authorities have a duty to provide a comprehensive and efficient library service.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

Will my noble friend pay tribute to the scores of volunteers in North Yorkshire who have enabled a series of isolated rural libraries to remain open, and to North Yorkshire County Council for providing the facilities? I am learning the joys of e-books, another facility that rural areas are benefiting from.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I agree with my noble friend. Community libraries and volunteers are both very important. There is no doubt that a number of libraries have closed and the library service is under pressure, as are a lot of other local authority services. The percentage of local government expenditure spent on libraries has in fact remained pretty constant, showing that many local authorities value the services of libraries and continue to make difficult choices to preserve their numbers. One of the ways they are doing so is by getting partnerships with other organisations, in which volunteers play a very important role.

[Lord Tope (LD)]

My Lords—

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, libraries are not the only public cultural assets suffering from the Government’s continuing cuts to local councils. Is the Minister aware of the intended sale next month by Hertfordshire County Council of 428 artworks, including work by Barbara Hepworth, Julian Trevelyan and other well-known British artists, despite a petition signed by local people to stop the sale? What is the department’s response to this sad and still avoidable selling off of publicly owned work?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I was not aware of that, but I will ensure that the Minister for Arts, Heritage and Tourism is made aware, if he is not already. It is sad when local authorities sell public artworks, but I accept that they have difficult decisions to make, and that is what local authorities are for. The important thing is that decisions that affect local communities should be taken locally.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, this is a question in which all Members of this House can take a personal interest. Each of us could give testimony on what libraries have meant to us. When they were small, our children relied on them often, and even in the age of social media, it is the same thing all over again with our grandchildren. When local authorities have had to cut their budgets by 60% in recent times, closing libraries offers an easy way of saving money, but simply to say that the Government have outsourced responsibilities to local authorities is not good enough to address this question.

Even if the DCMS has not conducted its own impact assessment, the unions have, and without repeating the statistics, it is a horrendous picture of dissatisfaction from those working in libraries at the service they are obliged to offer the public with fewer and fewer resources. Do the Government not feel it appropriate to put this further up the priority list and address this question with urgency, for the good of us all, and our families?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

It is very easy to blame the Government when devolved decisions are not to the liking of people living elsewhere, such as noble Lords. I accept that when difficult decisions have to be made, they cause issues. We support local libraries by providing things such as wi-fi. Through Arts Council England we provide the Libraries Opportunities for Everyone Innovation Fund, the private finance initiative and the Libraries Taskforce; all are examples of DCMS centrally supporting the library service. I accept that local authorities have had to make difficult decisions. Libraries actually have been retained and it is worth bearing in mind that many local authorities have refurbished or opened new libraries. Therefore, it is a question of priorities and what a local authority thinks is important for its area.

Brexit: Tourism

Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts

Tuesday 19th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to guarantee the adequate staffing of tourism and hospitality projects following the United Kingdom’s withdrawal from the European Union.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have been clear that we want EU nationals who have built their lives here to remain and that EU nationals will continue to be able to work or study in the UK. We will continue to engage with the sector on the future immigration system, which will cater for a range of skill levels across sectors. The tourism sector deal is in negotiation, and it has a strong focus on future-proofing the sector.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)]

Is the Minister aware that KPMG forecasts that we will lose 1 million workers in the tourism industry over the next few years? In Llandudno—where I am from of course—there is great concern over tourism job losses. Not only that, but there is a threat to Welsh agriculture following our new status and the threat of a possible loss of 7,000 jobs at Airbus. In Parliament, I am told that over half of our catering staff are from outside the United Kingdom. Do the Government wish to be remembered for causing the worst recession in nearly a hundred years?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

No, my Lords. Tourism in Wales, to which the noble Lord referred, is a devolved competence and Visit Wales is in charge of that as part of the Welsh Government, but I am not going to rely on that. We have been engaging with the sector extensively over the last two years, and we are aware of the immigration priorities. The sector has submitted evidence to the Migration Advisory Committee on the shortage occupation list. In respect of specific levers to mitigate workplace shortages, we need to improve productivity, invest in skills and career development, and reduce high turnover. These are a key focus of the proposed tourism sector deal, which has now entered into formal negotiations; we hope to announce it shortly.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, I understand that the review body has accepted the case for farm workers being given a special deal after Brexit. Who has this review group been talking to? Is it talking to tourism industry groups and musicians et cetera? It seems to me to have lost the ability to see what is going on in the economy.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I do not know what review group the noble Lord is referring to, but I can assure him that, via the Tourism Industry Council, the tourism sector is engaging and the Home Office has said it will engage on the issue of seasonal workers. We need a provision, where if an industry is reliant on seasonal workers, like some agriculture is, the future immigration system is capable of handling that.

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

Would my noble friend like to bring a sense of balance to this discussion, and perhaps some common sense?

[Lord Dobbs]

Thank you. Like other Members of this noble House, has my noble friend noticed the latest employment figures from today? They show a record number of jobs in the UK economy, a fall—again—in unemployment and a record level of women in employment: the highest number of women employed in our economy in our history. Does he not think that that should be emphasised rather more than all the doom and gloom we keep getting?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

Of course, I agree with my noble friend that it should be emphasised. The issue this brings for certain sectors is whether they can compete in attracting the workforce. As far as the tourism industry is concerned, this sector deal will try to address that, because we need a higher-wage economy which will increase productivity. We need to use things such as automation and training to avoid the turnover that exists in the tourism industry. However, I certainly agree with my noble friend that the Government’s record on employment is excellent.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, would the Minister be prepared to say at the Dispatch Box that any university student who is offered a place by a British university, as registered under the Higher Education Act, and anybody employed as a researcher or an academic at those universities, will be able to come here without any question being raised about how much they are earning?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I think it would be foolish of me to make Home Office policy at the Dispatch Box without having considered it very carefully, but I will look at what the noble Lord says and tell my noble friend from the Home Office about it.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, referred to high employment. That is the very problem: hotels and restaurants in the tourist industry, in Wales and elsewhere, are unable to find labour. Some of the workers who had come from continental Europe are going back, partly because of the value of the pound and partly because of uncertainty. In these circumstances, there needs to be a positive programme to ensure the availability of labour; otherwise, industries such as tourism, which are vital to Snowdonia and elsewhere, will crumble.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I am sure that Visit Wales is addressing the problems for the tourist industry in Wales. As I said, the tourism sector deal is trying to raise career prospects in the tourism industry by increasing skills, reducing turnover and enabling technology such as automation to help. From 2021, the new immigration system will address some of those points, and the Home Office has clearly said that it will engage over the next few months—that is the point of a White Paper.

[Baroness Doocey (LD)]

The Government have introduced a seasonal agricultural workers scheme to address that sector’s reliance on migrant labour to do seasonal work. This is very much to be welcomed. Could the Minister explain when the Government plan to do the same for the tourism industry, which faces exactly the same problems and brings into the UK economy £127 billion a year?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The noble Baroness is correct: it represents 4% of the UK’s GVA, so it is an important sector, as I mentioned. I completely understand the issue. The only specific exception that the immigration White Paper has talked about so far is for seasonal workers in agriculture. There is a case to look at other industries, such as tourism, and that is why the Home Office has said it will engage. We at DCMS will certainly liaise and engage with the tourism sector—there is a meeting of the Tourism Industry Council next month.

[Baroness Crawley (Lab)]

My Lords, do the Government know exactly how many workers have been lost to the hospitality and tourism industry in the last couple of years, even before Brexit happens? What are the Government doing to assist those companies that feel they might close down?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The issue is rather the other way: the tourism industry has increased dramatically. The number of visitors has increased. I am not aware that the number of jobs has fallen; I think it is the reverse. There is a shortage of labour that has been filled from the EU. That is why, in the next two years, we will encourage and welcome EU workers. That is why we have said that, until the new immigration system comes in, those who are here already are very welcome to stay and work.