Data Protection (Charges and Information) (Amendment) Regulations 2019
Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts(5 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Ashton of Hyde
That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 17 December 2018 be approved.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde)
My Lords, I declare an interest which every Member of this House who speaks will have to declare so perhaps I can save them the bother. I will benefit from the fact that I will not have to pay the £40 charge if the regulations are approved. Secondly, my wife is a parish councillor and will also benefit.
The original regulations were debated and approved in this House on 20 March 2018. Noble Lords may recall that those regulations introduced a new charging structure to fund the Information Commissioner’s Office. The authority for doing so derived at the time from the Digital Economy Act 2017, now superseded by the powers set out in Section 137 of the Data Protection Act 2018. As we promised during those debates, we are now looking to implement a new exemption from the annual data protection charge for elected representatives, candidates for election and Members of the House of Lords for processing that they undertake in the course of fulfilling their democratic duties.
The new data protection framework is about protecting personal data—that is, information that can identify individuals. Some of us in this House will be data controllers—we may hold personal data—and are responsible for how that information is processed. There may be a number of reasons why we hold that personal data—for example, we may have been entrusted with it by members of the public for particular aspects of parliamentary work—but, as data controllers, we have various obligations under the Data Protection Act, including how we look after that information.
While we have previously debated the importance of having an adequately funded regulator, there will be some situations where it would be unreasonable for some data controllers to pay the charge or where the charge would give rise to unintended negative consequences. For that reason, Schedule 1 to the funding regulations details a number of exemptions to the payment of the charge. For example, any data controller who processes personal data only for staff administration purposes, or purely for advertising, marketing and public relations reasons, is not required to pay.
During the parliamentary debate of the original funding regulations on 20 March last year, the Government undertook to review these exemptions. A public consultation took place last summer and has been available online since June 2018. The consultation sought views on whether each of the exemptions was still appropriate; a proposed new exemption for elected representatives, prospective candidates for election and Members of the House of Lords; and whether any other new exemptions should be introduced. Respondents were broadly supportive of the current exemptions regime. However, there was also support for one new exemption for elected representatives, candidates, including prospective candidates for election, and Members of the House of Lords.
The Government’s view is that activity deriving from elected representatives’ public offices and functions should not be liable to a charge. Charges of this nature potentially represent a perceived or actual barrier to democratic engagement. A number of respondents supported this view. In light of this support, we have decided to take this amendment forward for implementation, so I now come to the details of the instrument.
The amendment introduces an exemption for: Members of the House of Lords who are entitled to receive a Writ of Summons to attend this House specifically for the purposes of related functions; elected representatives, as defined in paragraph 23(3) of Schedule 1 to the Data Protection Act 2018 in connection with the discharge of their respective functions; and relevant processing undertaken by candidates, prospective and nominated, seeking to become elected representatives. These exemptions cover those who are acting on instructions or on behalf of such Members and elected or prospective representatives. Importantly, that is not to say that all processing of data conducted by those listed in the amendment, including all Members of this House, is automatically exempt from paying a charge. The instrument makes it clear that the exemption relates solely to processing carried out by these parties in connection with their democratic functions.
In the case of prospective candidates, the exemption would apply only to processing in connection with those activities related to election or re-election in a post. It is important to extend the exemption to anyone seeking to become an elected representative, not just to nominated candidates. This is because formal nomination, the stage at which candidates are defined in electoral legislation, occurs only in the immediate lead-up to an election. Activity to support re-election is likely to predate this stage. Excluding prospective candidates from this exemption would place them at a financial disadvantage compared with their incumbent counterparts. We have restricted the application of the exemption to data processing associated with the functions of our respective roles. This provides a safeguard against misuse, for example by individuals falsely claiming to be prospective candidates.
I want to be clear that the exemption relates only to the payment of the annual data protection charge. It is not an exemption from data controllers’ important data protection responsibilities. Anyone who does not adhere to those responsibilities and principles will face enforcement action by the ICO.
I hope noble Lords will agree that this amendment is important to encourage wider participation in the democratic engagement process. The removal of a requirement to pay the annual data protection charge to the ICO will ensure that all prospective candidates will start their electoral campaigns on a footing equal to that of elected representatives already in post. It also reflects the high regard the Government place upon those undertaking public functions. I beg to move.
Lord McNally (LD)
My Lords, we welcome this statutory instrument and the exemptions provided for. Like the Minister and, I think, everybody in this House, we do not want a tax on democracy, but people should be assured that the legal responsibilities remain the same and can be quite onerous. The Minister’s last remark was that we must not allow people to use the candidate or even the MP or Peer as cover for activities that would be outside the narrow exemption of this House.
This reminds me of debates we had some 20 or even 30 years ago—in the early 1990s—when we brought in legislation about the financing of political parties. I remember that those of us who had experience of working for political parties were very conscious that they are all made up of volunteers, often amateurs. There was a danger in that legislation—and I think there still is—of putting on to enthusiastic volunteer amateurs, who make our democracy work, very onerous financial responsibilities in terms of election spending and, in this case, very onerous data protection responsibilities. There might be a case for giving political parties some funding for advice, training and support to make sure that these responsibilities are understood and work well.
What the Minister has had to say is very welcome, and we are all involved in this, but it appears that the initial advice was a little confusing and caused concern. Once these regulations are approved, as I am sure they will be, I wonder whether the House authorities can issue some clear and definitive advice that will be of benefit to Members of this House. We look forward to this SI being passed.
Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)
My Lords, this seems a sensible measure and the issues have been well rehearsed. There was one area where there was some confusion in my mind, and I hope that noble Lords will not mind my bringing it to their attention now. I, too, am looking forward to not having to pay £40—that is good news, but in exempting Members from both Houses, candidates and so on from the need to pay that charge, we recognise that many of us have other duties and obligations not related to our being Members of this House. We are in employment, we run things and so on, and we handle people’s data other than in the sense that has been described. I guess they will have to pay their £40 or whatever it is, but my confusion lies in the hinterland between those two modes of operation: information gained in respect of activities of one kind can without too much imagination become useful in respect of those of another kind. I wonder whether some thought has been given to handling that kind of confusion and, if so, how. It would be helpful if the Minister could say something about that; otherwise, this seems like common sense and we would have no hesitation in wanting it to go forward.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have responded. This statutory instrument is unique among those I have dealt with recently in having gained a speedy and generally favourable response; I am grateful for that.
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McNally, for his welcome. He spoke about financing political parties and the need to give advice—as indeed did the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford. I can say that the House authorities will take that on board and provide some clear advice, taking into account the new requirements if this statutory instrument is passed; I am very pleased about that.
I acknowledge—the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, was right about this—that the approach to funding the ICO was originally set by the Digital Economy Act, which was superseded by the Data Protection Act. The method of funding the ICO, and the question of whether it is adequate, have been occupying us for several years. I am pleased that we have finally resolved it. The noble Baroness is right that we decided to do it this way and not as part of the GDPR. Supervisory authorities can be funded in a number of ways. The reason for doing it this way was that it did not involve much practical change from the ICO funding arrangements under the Data Protection Act 1998 and a register is not necessary.
The noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, talked about an ocean of calm within a broader picture that is possibly not so calming. I agree with her that it is a small but important issue. It is right to deal with an issue that promotes—or at least does not prevent—demographic engagement; and a commitment was made when the regulations were debated last year that we would look at this and take it forward. It is important to carry forward what we said; I take on board her points about the issues alluded to in the DCMS Committee’s report, as outlined this morning. Generally speaking, we have not yet had time to analyse it in great detail but, together with the Cabinet Office, we will be taking forward a lot of these issues around disinformation and its effect on elections, particularly through the online harms White Paper, which will be coming out soon.
The noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, mentioned that Peers have other duties; he asked about the way this exemption would apply in relation to their duties in the House of Lords and elsewhere. He is quite right that, if they are a data controller and have other duties that are not subject to an exemption, they would be required to pay the charge. I will mention this to the House authorities when they issue their advice and hopefully they can be clear. Ultimately, the Data Protection Act says that you must have lawful authority to handle personal data and it is up to you to make sure that is the case; if you handle personal data—other than data that has some limited exemptions provided in the Act—then you will have to pay the charge.
Lord Griffiths of Burry Port
I wonder if I could ask for a little more resolution on the matter. My mind is filled with pictures of activities that I myself have engaged in where, by doing work for which I am remunerated, I gain some kind of control of people’s data or the use of it, and at the same time I can be involved in an area where I am exempt from all that. Because of the homogeneity of the activities, one paid and one not, it is not difficult to see that the dividing line between what qualifies and what does not might be difficult to establish, even with the good will of the authorities of the House who write the best guidance that has ever been written.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
If the guidance does not produce clarity in the noble Lord’s mind, then I think the answer is to avail himself of the ICO’s telephone hotline, which is there specifically to answer questions such as the ones that he has asked. He will be able to give them the specific examples of where he is unable to be clear. That applies generally to people in public office such as him but also, importantly, to other small businesses; there is a specific small-business hotline that is there exactly to answer questions like his. I hope that has covered most of the issues.
Data Protection, Privacy and Electronic Communications (Amendments etc) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts(5 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Ashton of Hyde
That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 14 January be approved.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)
My Lords, today we are concerned with the protection of personal data once the UK has withdrawn from the EU, when EU law will cease to apply in the UK.
Noble Lords will recall from debates last year on the Data Protection Bill that much of our current data protection framework derives from EU measures. When the UK leaves the EU, the GDPR will be retained in domestic law through the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. That Act also permits fixes to be made so that the retained version of the UK GDPR continues to be operable in a domestic context. That is what the regulations before the House today are designed to do.
Before we look at the changes in more detail, it is important to make clear the general approach. The purpose of this exercise is to correct deficiencies arising from our departure from the EU. As such, these regulations do not significantly affect UK businesses or erode people’s data protection rights. We are looking to maintain continuity. This approach will put the UK in the best possible position to receive a positive adequacy decision from the EU.
Many of the amendments made to the GDPR by these regulations simply replace European Union-related terminology with UK equivalents. For example, there are many references in the GDPR to “member states” or “member state law”. These references have typically been amended by these regulations to refer to “the UK” and “domestic law” respectively, or removed altogether. For greater clarity post exit, the retained version of the GDPR as amended by these regulations will be known as the UK GDPR.
However, simply replacing European terminology with UK equivalents does not address all the deficiencies that arise as a result of our exit from the EU. The Government have given careful thought to how the UK GDPR and the Data Protection Act 2018 should approach these remaining deficiencies. I shall address a number of these important issues in more detail.
The GDPR and Part 3 of the Data Protection Act 2018, which implemented the law enforcement directive, restrict the transfer of personal data to third countries unless certain safeguards are met. One of those safeguards is where the third country concerned, or a sector within the country, has been deemed “adequate” by the EU Commission. Once an adequacy decision has been granted, data can flow freely to that country or sector. In the absence of an adequacy decision, data can still be transferred to third countries, but the onus is on controllers to make sure that alternative safeguards, such as standard contractual clauses or binding corporate rules, are in place to ensure that the data is protected.
Lord Adonis (Lab)
My Lords, if the Minister will forgive me, this is a crucial issue in what is going to happen. Where there is a data controller outside the United Kingdom in a no-deal scenario, will there be a requirement for it to have a representative inside the United Kingdom to replicate the existing EU arrangement? It was not clear from what the Minister has just said whether that will be an absolute requirement.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
If they fulfil those conditions that I mentioned, the answer is yes.
I would like to touch on what our exit from the EU might mean for the applied GDPR, as provided for by Chapter 3 of Part 2 of the Data Protection Act 2018. Noble Lords will recall that we created a separate regime which provides for broadly equivalent standards to the GDPR to apply to processing activities that are outside the scope of EU law and covered by neither Part 3 nor 4 of the Act, which deal with processing by law enforcement and intelligence services respectively. This regime currently applies, for example, where a controller other than the intelligence services is processing for national security or defence purposes.
As the EU GDPR will not, as a matter of domestic law, apply directly to any general processing activities when we leave the EU, these regulations are intended to simplify matters by providing for a single regime for all general processing activities. Those provisions in the 2018 Act that provide for the applied GDPR, together with other references to the applied GDPR in legislation, are removed. Importantly, the provisions in the applied GDPR which currently provide exemptions from specified provisions where these are required for the purposes of safeguarding national security or for defence purposes have been retained in the merged regime. These exemptions balance the need to protect personal data against ensuring that the UK’s security and intelligence community can continue to carry out its vital work to safeguard national security. I should emphasise that the merger does not itself alter the purview of EU law so where aspects of domestic data protection law were outside EU competence before exit day, this will not change as a result of this instrument. We have included provisions in the regulations to make that point clear.
I believe that the approach the Government are taking is an appropriate way of addressing the deficiencies in domestic data protection laws resulting from the UK leaving the EU. The aim of these regulations is to ensure continuity for data subjects, controllers and processors by maintaining the same data protection standards that currently exist under the GDPR and the Data Protection Act 2018.
My remarks have focused on the changes made to the GDPR and the Data Protection Act because they are the most significant. For completeness, I should add that the regulations make a number of minor amendments to other legislation, consequential on the amendments we are making to the UK GDPR and Data Protection Act 2018. For example, they amend references to the “GDPR” in other legislation to refer to the “UK GDPR”.
They also address a small number of non-exit-related issues. They clarify that the GDPR definition of consent applies for the purposes of the Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations 2003, and address two minor drafting issues that were identified in Schedule 19 to the Data Protection Act 2018, shortly before it received Royal Assent. I commend these regulations to the House
Lord McNally (LD)
My Lords, I am not sure the Minister is going to have quite the easy ride he had with the first statutory instrument. My eye was caught by a very detailed briefing by the law firm Fieldfisher on the consequences of this SI. It was the final paragraph that caught my eye. It says:
“From a broader perspective, the creation of a new data protection regime in the UK may present additional complexities for controllers and processors who are caught by both European and UK law and will therefore need to comply with both the GDPR and (in relation to UK customer data) something that looks like the GDPR but which may start to move away from it as time goes on”.
Those last words are ominous. There is no doubt that the GDPR was a great success for European co-operation. The noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, reminded us earlier of the wide range of issues that we will have to take into account in protecting our democracy from data abuses. There are similar dangers in the protection of our commercial and business life. The value of the GDPR is that it gives us a strength of certainty of European legislation.
I will delay the House a little with a reminiscence. Between 2010 and 2013 I was the Minister at the Ministry of Justice responsible for the earlier negotiations on GDPR. I went to a meeting in Lithuania and throughout the day I noticed that there was one person sat at the table who never participated, voted or said anything. At the end I turned to the British ambassador and asked, “Who is the guy at the end of the table—he has not said anything?” “That is the Norwegian,” he said. “He can come and listen, but can’t vote and he is not involved our decisions.”
I often think of that when I hear people banging on about sovereignty. Sovereignty was best exercised by British Ministers at the table briefed, I have to say, by officials who were the people to go to. I will not name any particular official, but there was one man to go to as GDPR clunked its way through the machinery. There were “light touchers” and those who had quite recently experienced a Stasi or state abuse of personal data and privacy, and balancing the requirements of GDPR was part of the diplomacy our officials showed. I was also greatly assisted by our parliamentarians in the European Parliament: my noble friend Lady Ludford was very influential in steering the GDPR through some choppy waters.
The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, who is not in his place, said a few weeks ago in one of our Brexit debates that the first time he went as a Minister to Brussels he felt resentment and animosity that he was being, as it were, dictated to by these foreigners. I do not think that I am being too misleading in saying that; I am sure that he will correct me later if I am wrong. He certainly did not feel at home there.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
Just to be clear, I did not say anything about the speed with which the European Commission would provide its decision.
Lord McNally
Oh, dearie me. It is always the EU’s fault that we have got ourselves on this particular window ledge.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I am not blaming anyone, but an EU adequacy decision can be given only by the European Commission. It is not a question of blame; it is just a fact.
Lord McNally
I will close with another one where I am sure that the Minister is not going to blame the European Commission but say that it is its responsibility. During the period that I am talking about, the stature and influence of our then Information Commissioner had a major impact on how we put the GDPR in place. Again, the Minister was unable to give us any real reassurances about whether we will be at the table in co-operation, or whether it is these difficult foreigners who are going to stop us doing that.
Lord McNally
It is no use the Minister saying otherwise, because this is the reality.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I am sorry, I cannot let that pass. I never said anything about difficult foreigners.
Lord McNally
The Minister never said anything about difficult foreigners, but there has always been the impression that this would all be as smooth as smooth. “Do they not understand that we are trying to be helpful?”, we ask, when we have caused Europe so much disruption and cost by this act. In this case, it is essential that we are part of the ongoing dialogue. This GDPR is not the end of the process. As the House was discussing last week, these European laws are going to develop. How we then act and deal with them is going to affect where jurisdiction lies—with European or British courts.
Baroness Ludford (LD)
My Lords, first I have a couple of housekeeping questions which I hope are not too banal. I find considerable difficulty using the legislation.gov.uk website and its search function. Will the Minister ask his civil servants to check it out? Even if you search for “data protection 2019” under UK SIs, both the previous one and this are difficult to find. There was a 19 December version of these regulations, which were replaced in January. I must admit that I have not pored over every line of both to find the differences. Will the Minister explain why that was necessary?
Secondly, I want to ask about the absence of an impact assessment. Paragraph 12 of the Explanatory Memorandum states that:
“There is no, or no significant, impact on business, charities or voluntary bodies arising from this instrument”.
The pretext is that, while the Government recognise that:
“Data flows from the EEA to the UK may be restricted post-exit”—
because, if there is no deal, we will be plunged into a situation where there is no legal framework and no adequacy decision—
“that is as a consequence of the UK leaving the EU, not as a result of this instrument”.
That is the justification for having no impact assessment. However, if we left with a withdrawal deal and a transition there would be a legal framework, so this instrument, which provides for both a no-deal scenario and one in which there would be no adequacy decision, surely merits an impact assessment as well as the consultation to which the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, referred.
As the ICO has made clear, and as has been mentioned already, businesses may have to deal both with the ICO and with European data protection authorities in every EU and EEA state where they have customers. They may need a European representative if they process the data of people resident in the EEA or have customers in the EEA. There would be additional complexity if they had to comply with both the GDPR and the UK GDPR. They could face concurrent legal claims in both the UK and the EEA. Will the Minister amplify the justification for having no impact assessment? Data flows are crucial to many businesses, not just the tech industry—there is hardly a business or other organisation that they do not affect—so the rather blasé claim that no impact assessment is needed is not justified.
I am a bit confused—it may just be my lack of understanding—about the situation regarding EU adequacy decisions on third countries. Paragraph 2.8 of the Explanatory Memorandum says there will be,
“incorporated into UK domestic law … EU decisions on the adequacy of third countries and on standard contractual clauses, both of which are relevant for … international transfers”.
Paragraph 2.13 says:
“It will not be necessary to retain the EU decisions on adequacy and standard contractual clauses … so these are revoked by this instrument”.
If I have understood the Minister’s presentation, this is explained by the fact that we are recognising and incorporating past EU adequacy decisions, but that in the future, in a no-deal scenario, the UK will take over that function: I venture to suggest that that is not very clearly explained in the Explanatory Memorandum.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
Would it help if I just said that the noble Baroness is absolutely right in her interpretation?
Baroness Ludford
I do not often get that response from Ministers, so that is very gratifying.
Also, a second version of these regulations was published at the end of last week—I think the Minister referred to it—which is specifically about privacy shields in the US. I am rather surprised that we will have two separate considerations: why could they not have been incorporated into this debate? As the ICO pointed out in a notice a while ago, US companies will need to update their privacy shield commitments to state that they apply to transfers of personal data from the UK. That is a big deal for many companies. It is another reason for what I said about the need for an impact assessment. If that does not happen, a lot of companies will be in serious difficulty.
Will the Minister tell us what advice the Government are giving businesses on using standard contractual clauses or binding corporate rules in the absence of an adequacy decision? The European Data Protection Board issued a notice about this last week, on 12 February. Are the Government going to advise businesses, large and small, exactly how this will work? Lastly, what progress is being made on an adequacy decision? The Minister will know from discussions during the passage of the EU withdrawal Act and the Data Protection Act that many of us are worried about this issue. Last summer, the Government expressed their aspiration for a legally binding agreement that would be more than a unilateral adequacy decision and which would enable the ICO to have a seat on the European Data Protection Board. Essentially, it would be Brexit in name only and would retain all the benefits of being in the EU with regard to data protection structures. That aspiration is not recognised in the political declaration, which talks only about an adequacy decision, so the UK has been knocked back in that area. Perhaps the Minister could tell us precisely where we are. What signal is he getting from the Commission on an adequacy decision? Are we talking months or years?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
My Lords, I took the advice of the noble Lord, Lord McNally, that it would not be easy—and he has proved to be right. It is reasonable to take on board the frustrations that some of these SIs have caused—in my view, not so much because of the process which is gone through but the fact that some noble Lords do not want to leave the EU and are highlighting the effects. What they are highlighting may well be the case, but when we are trying to pass an SI such as this one we need to concentrate on its effect and—that did not take long.
Baroness Ludford
I am sorry but the Minister must accept this. It is absolutely true—I speak for myself and my Benches—that we would prefer to remain in the EU, but that is not the point about an impact assessment. There is a difference between crashing out with no deal and a transitional period when EU law would continue to be applicable and we would not need all these arrangements. That is what an impact assessment would have to assess. This is about a no deal crash-out and it is perfectly valid to distinguish that from an advocacy of remain.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I agree. That is why the Government are making all efforts to secure a deal. We agree that a deal is the best situation for the country. We are at one with that.
In answer to the noble Baroness, I will start with something which is my responsibility—the legislation.gov.uk website provided by the National Archives. I will take up the matter with it. I am told that it may be helpful to search for “draft statutory instruments” rather than “statutory instruments”. I certainly listened to what she said about the website not working and will check what we need to do.
The noble Baroness, the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, and others talked about the impact assessment and asked why it has not been published. The impact of this instrument, not the impact of leaving the EU, was assessed in line with standard practice following the existing Better Regulation framework. It is focused on the direct impact of the relevant SI compared with the current legislation. The whole point of this SI is to maintain an equivalent regulatory framework to protect personal data. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, quite rightly pointed out that it affects not only UK businesses but mostly EU and EEA businesses, which will have to have representatives in this country, and I will come to that. It is a reciprocal arrangement. If these regulations come into force and we have a UK GDPR, the same necessity for representatives will take place both ways, and I will come to that.
The analysis, to the best of the Government’s ability, of the wider impact of the UK’s exit from the EU was published in the Long-term Economic Analysis in November last year. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, talked about representatives and Article 27. He is correct that data controllers who offer goods and services to or monitor the behaviour of data subjects in the UK will need to appoint a representative in the UK, but that is a cost to non-UK businesses, which is what the impact assessment is meant to address. He is also correct that there will be organisations in the UK that will be required as a matter of EU law to appoint a representative in the EEA. The ICO provides data controllers with advice on this obligation and will continue to do so. If controllers and processors based abroad are routinely processing data, it is right that they should be accountable in the UK and have a presence here because this is about maintaining the status quo as far as possible, not about rolling back protections for individuals, so the representative is a point of contact for the data subject as well as the supervisory authorities, such as the Information Commissioner.
Lord Adonis
I understand that the Minister is saying that my supposition is correct that after a no-deal Brexit a UK data controller doing business in the EEA will have to have a representative in the EEA as well as in the UK because this will be a reciprocal obligation—the Minister is nodding, so he agrees. The key point is that that is a significant burden on businesses. There is no way of getting away from it. That is a new and significant burden on UK businesses as a result of the regime put in place by this instrument, so why is it not flagged up in the Explanatory Memorandum to this order? Indeed, to take up the point made by my noble friend Lord Rooker, why did our Select Committees not point this out in their analysis of this instrument? My reading is that this is going to be a burden on a very substantial proportion of businesses which conduct business that involves data. Therefore almost all of them that do business on the continent will be required to have a representative on the continent for GDPR purposes which they do not have to do now and will not have to do if there is a deal because we would have continuity of the existing GDPR arrangements.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
It is true that they may be required to have representatives in the EEA, and it is a reciprocal benefit. The impact assessment looks at the specific requirements of the SI, not at the requirements of leaving the EU. The long-term consequences for business—
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
I thought I was going to listen to a debate on a specific SI, but there are some very large principles here about the way in which this House should be handling the very large number of SIs which we are expected to get through in the next two to three weeks. If it is correct to say that the Treasury has now laid down that there should be no impact assessment because we can all rely on what the Government told us in general about the implications of leaving the EU, that seems to be close to being totally improper and at the very least to require a formal Statement to this House about how we are expected to deal with this very large number of statutory instruments.
In the circumstances, the most appropriate thing would be for the Minister to withdraw this statutory instrument and to come back in a few days after there has been some consultation on it among the Front Benches. If he is not able to do that, at the very least he should promise that tomorrow there will be a formal Statement to the House on how statutory instruments will be handled from now on. It seems that we are heading into an area where statutory instruments are not being properly scrutinised by this House.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I find it difficult to understand how the noble Lord can say that the SIs are not being properly scrutinised by this House, particularly in comparison with the scrutiny that this instrument received in the other place.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I agree with the noble Lord who is saying from a sedentary position that that is why he is here and why it is important. However, taking my personal experience of the telecoms SI, an hour and a half in the Moses Room and an hour in the Chamber seems to be pretty reasonable scrutiny. As for how the House in general and the Government are handling SIs—
Baroness Kramer
This is not just a matter of time; it is whether people have the appropriate information to be able to raise and challenge issues. That is the underlying issue that the Minister is running into in this House.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I understand that point, and the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, made it to me forcefully in the Moses Room. This SI has been laid for some time and there have been opportunities for noble Lords to talk to and engage with anyone from the DCMS. I take the point that it is sometimes difficult for Back-Benchers to get information if they do not ask the department. However, I think that the Front Benches have been fairly open in exchanging information on any SI—that is certainly the case in my department. I offered the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, opportunities to ask questions well before the debate, as I think he acknowledged.
It is not for me to say how the House and its sifting committees behave and how the two committees have liaised with each other. However, I will take the noble Lord’s request back to the usual channels. I will not commit to there being a Statement tomorrow but I will certainly take back his point to make sure that the usual channels listen to what he has said. The making of Statements will be up to them—that is not for me; nor is it for me to comment on the work of the sifting committees of your Lordships’ House.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, this morning I read a new Commons briefing on the amount of legislation that needs to have been completed to enable us to leave the EU on 29 March in good order. The answer is eight Bills, as well as, still, several hundred SIs. The Government Front Bench keeps telling us that it is perfectly possible to manage that within the next six weeks but, in spite of the remarkably light business that we have this week, it seems that we are very much in Alice in Wonderland territory here. We cannot manage all that within that period, even if we are asked to skimp on the SIs. We know that part of the problem is that the Civil Service cannot manage the impact assessments for these SIs because it is so overloaded and this Chamber is unable to do its job appropriately. The Government have therefore left it too late to be able to leave the EU in good order constitutionally and legislatively on 29 March. I would like the Minister to take that back to the rest of the Government Front Bench, and a Statement to the House on how we should manage this from now on would, I think, be appropriate.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I thank the noble Lord for his view. It is clearly not for me to promise a Statement to the House. As I said before, I will agree to take back what he said and put both interventions to the House authorities. They may or may not agree. If they do not, I am sure that he will be able to raise it in an appropriate forum direct with the usual channels—both via his own Chief Whip and also directly with the Leader of the House and our Chief Whip. However, it is not appropriate, in considering an SI, to move beyond that to the wider method used by the House to address statutory instruments. Ministers certainly feel that they have been scrutinised considerably. I do not see that the noble Lord, or others who have spoken on this, are suffering from a lack of information with which to scrutinise these statutory instruments; they seem to be scrutinising fairly effectively as far as I can tell.
My response to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, about the effect of representatives on business, is that the need to have a representative in the EEA is not as a result of this statutory instrument—it is as a result of EU law. Therefore, as I said before, the fact that we will no longer be part of the EU means that EU law will apply to us as a third country; until now, we have not been a third country.
Lord Adonis
I seem to have misunderstood. I thought we had got clarity on this situation. While we are a member of the EU, a company needs to have only one representative in the EU—if I have got that right—whereas under the no-deal Brexit scenario, if the company is based in the UK and does business involving data exchanges or transfer in the EEA, it will need to have two. That is a very important point. It is not the case that the status quo will continue: there will be a fundamental difference once we are outside, because then we will be a third country as far as the EU is concerned. The reciprocal arrangements mean that UK businesses doing business on the continent will need to have a data representative in the EU and vice versa, which is not the case at the moment in respect of the EEA. Is that correct?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I do not think that is correct, but I will write to the noble Lord to confirm it.
Lord Adonis
This is a fundamental issue; it goes to the heart of these regulations. The House should absolutely not agree to these regulations without us being clear in this debate on whether there will be a requirement to have data representatives in both the UK and the EEA reciprocally in the event of a no-deal Brexit. That is fundamental. My reading of these regulations is that this will be a requirement and that is what I took the noble Lord to be confirming earlier in the debate.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I think the noble Lord has mis-stated it. The reciprocity is that an EEA company will be required to have a representative in the UK and, likewise, a UK company will be required to have a representative in the EEA.
Lord Adonis
That is not the case at the moment, while we are in the European Union. That is the key point, is it not?
Lord Adonis
There will be a fundamental and massive increase in burdens as a result; this is the key point that I am trying to get across, which is not in the Explanatory Memorandum at all. It is not necessarily a point about leaving the EU. If we have an agreement, with an implementation period and so on, there will not be that requirement until we leave the existing regime. These are fundamental issues, which should have been brought up well before this debate started. The fact that the noble Lord cannot even definitively confirm the arrangement is quite a serious problem for us.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I am sorry, but I do not agree with the noble Lord. When we have the UK GDPR, which these regulations will bring into place, there will be reciprocity in the need to have representatives in each other’s countries. I agree that this will be a change. We do not need them at the moment because we are in the EU, but this will be a result of leaving the EU.
Baroness Kramer
I want to get some clarity on this and perhaps the Minister will be able to help me. He is quite clear that, for a wide variety of companies, there will need to be one representative in the UK and, he seems to imply, one representative in the EEA. Is that correct, or does there need to be one in each country within the EEA—or does the individual in the EEA have to deal with different regimes because of the different local regulators and because it is representing a third country in its work? I am trying to work out how great the burden that he has indicated will be, even though he does not think that it will be part of the impact.
Baroness Ludford
Before the Minister answers, I would like to press again this idea that an impact assessment is not needed since the impact comes from leaving. I say no to that; it depends how you leave. The Minister and I may differ on the desirability of the Prime Minister’s deal, whatever that is going to be, but there is a difference between crashing out and having a transition with a political declaration which may avoid the need for duplication; we do not know what the data protection provisions will be in the future relationships. We all hope that there will be a strong degree of mutual recognition, but the immediate impact of crashing out with no deal—with a void where any adequacy decision or future reciprocal relationship between regulators would otherwise be—is quite different. First, it is different from having a standstill transition and, secondly, it is different from having the prospect, or at least the hope, of a long-term relationship that preserves something of the single market. We need the impact assessment to assess the difference between those two scenarios; that is what the Minister does not seem to grasp.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I agree with the noble Baroness that, if we leave with a deal, that is a different scenario from leaving with no deal. That seems an obvious fact and it is why the Government are trying to leave with a deal, which is what the Prime Minister is trying to achieve. This is a no-deal exit SI to prepare for that eventuality. If we leave with no deal, the object of the exercise will be to preserve the GDPR standard of data protection, which this SI will do. To return to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis—sorry, it might have been raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer—the requirement to appoint one representative in the EEA is, as I said, a result of EU law.
I say again to the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, regarding the impact on business of Article 27, that we think that if controllers based abroad are routinely processing the data of people in the UK then it is right that they should be accountable and have a presence in the UK, because it is about trying to maintain the status quo as far as possible for individuals and not rolling back their data protection. The representative is a point of contact for the data subject as well as supervisory authorities such as the Information Commissioner.
I turn to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord McNally, about the complexity for organisations potentially subject to dual regulation. The point of this instrument was to ensure the minimum disruption to organisations and to data subjects by trying to retain the effect of the data protection legislation where possible. The relationship is absolutely changing but the instrument ensures that we can co-operate on an international level with not only the EU supervisory authorities but those in other countries; that is why we have kept Article 50 of the GDPR. Where he is right, and I accept that he is right in this, is that if we move away from the GDPR—if the UK GDPR moves away from the EU GDPR—that will have consequences for the adequacy decision that we hope to achieve, which will be reviewed by the EU Commission. It is important that the EU has confidence that our data protection regime is “essentially equivalent”, which is what the adequacy decision is based on. Anything that we do in future will have to bear in mind that our data regime is essentially equivalent so that it gives the EU confidence.
I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, that in previous times there were elements that were outside EU competence that it could not look at, but now of course in an adequacy decision it will be able to look at those. Again, as it does in other adequacy decisions, it will look at the overall adequacy requirement and say whether or not it is essentially equivalent. That is why the adequacy decision is not immediate. Where we start in a good place compared to other regimes is that we have started with an equivalent regime to the extent that we have enacted the GDPR, which other third countries have not. We start on a level playing field in that respect.
The noble Baroness talked about the US privacy shield and the reason why we are going to lay another set of regulations. The discussions on the US privacy shield were ongoing when this SI was laid and therefore we could not wait. It was our priority to lay this SI so that we had an ongoing regime in the event of no deal. Now that that has been agreed between us and the US, though, another SI will be laid—it may even have been laid—to ensure that the US requirements continue, and I think that will happen very soon.
The noble Baroness asked about the EDPB’s recently published guidance on the implications of the UK’s exit. That guidance confirmed that, if the EU Commission does not make an adequacy decision in respect of the UK, EU firms will need to put in place alternative transfer mechanisms, such as standard contractual clauses to continue to transfer personal data to the UK.
The noble Baroness suggested that the political declaration only covered adequacy. That is not right: paragraph 9 addresses the free flow of data while paragraph 10 addresses regulatory co-operation.
The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, and the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, talked about consultation. The difference between this SI and many others is that the Data Protection Act came into force less than a year ago; it was enacted after extensive discussions in this House and the other place, after the referendum discussion had taken place. Those noble Lords who participated in the Data Protection Act discussions, which lasted for many weeks, all know that matters such as data adequacy were raised numerous times. The whole purpose of the Act, and the mixture between regulations and derogations from regulations, was that we would be on as level a playing field as we could be when it came to getting an adequacy decision.
Baroness Ludford
Forgive me, but I would like to follow up on that. I really think the Minister is overselling what is in paragraph 9 of the political declaration. Last June, the Government issued a technical note about wanting a legally binding data protection agreement, and I described that earlier as a “Brexit in name only” kind of arrangement. They wanted that because there are,
“benefits that a standard Adequacy Decision cannot provide”.
Except for one sentence in paragraph 10 that talks about arrangements for appropriate co-operation between regulators, paragraph 9 is about a standard adequacy decision—no less but certainly no more. It talks about the European Commission recognising,
“a third country’s data protection standards as providing an adequate level of protection”.
It is not what the Government hoped for last June. I do not understand why the Government are trying to pretend. We can all read paragraph 9 once we have googled it and reminded ourselves, so to say that it is more than an adequacy assessment process is simply not true.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I understand the point from the noble Lord, Lord McNally, that our new position will not be the same as being in the EU. If we were a third country, I would expect us to have less influence than if we were a member of the EU. I am not denying that; it seems obvious. He is absolutely right that the GDPR was influenced by the UK, not only by officials in the negotiations but specifically by the ICO, which is regarded as one of the leading regulators in Europe. Of course, it will not have the same position as it did if we are not in the EU; I take that point.
However, I do not base everything on just the political declaration, which may or may not have some influence. It is also that we have retained Article 50 of the GDPR. I cannot remember the exact words, but it is on the basis of that that the EU talks about international co-operation with third countries, so there is a mechanism. As I said to the noble Lord, Lord McNally, it will not be the same, but there are bases for international co-operation. The EU wants that to happen and understands that in things such as data protection, you have to have an international consensus. In fact, on that, it is more important to go beyond the EU and do it internationally. Other organisations should—and do—take views on this. I think we are at the start of the journey on control of cross-border data flows and it will provide a further basis to influence behaviour.
On adequacy, it is easy to ask for detailed timelines on when this will take place. It will not take place on exit day, because it is not possible for the EU to give an adequacy decision unless you are a third country. Preliminary discussions—which, as the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, has indicated, may take some time—could begin now and we are ready to begin those discussions as soon as we can. We are already liaising with the European Commission—in fact, senior officials were in Brussels for talks last week—and we have liaised with member states on this subject. When the EU is ready to begin discussions, we are confident that we will be ready, but it is impossible to say how long that will take because, as the noble Baroness said, it is not a decision that is in our gift.
However, we start from a position of regulatory alignment on data protection. We implemented the GDPR and the law enforcement directive. We have also taken a GDPR approach on data protection to areas that were outside EU competence, such as law enforcement and national security, so we start in a very good position. In fact, it is such a good position that the UN special rapporteur on the right to privacy declared that the UK now co-leads in Europe and globally on privacy safeguards, and has made significant improvements in its oversight system since 2015. He said that,
“the UK has now equipped itself with a legal framework and significant resources designed to protect privacy without compromising security”.
It is important to note that there is a strong mutual interest in data adequacy.
The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, said that it is unsafe to pass this SI. I would like to point out what that would mean, if it is not passed and we have a no-deal exit. It would mean that we would cease to have properly functioning data protection law. The whole basis for adequacy decisions, which I think we all agree is very important, would go, because we would not be on a reciprocal basis—
Lord Adonis
Would the noble Lord agree that a better course would be for the Government to rule out no deal?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I am talking about data protection. We want a deal; I think everyone agrees on that. The question is whether going into a negotiation saying that is a good way to approach the negotiation.
As well as the basis for adequacy going, there would be no transitional arrangements to enable lawful personal data to transfer to the EEA. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, is concerned about business expenses; for that reason, that would not be a sensible way of going forward.
On the adequacy decision which my honourable friend Margot James mentioned, I do not have her remarks before me, but I believe she said something about two years. I think what she meant was that other countries’ adequacy decisions have sometimes taken two years, but we see no reason for it to take two years in the UK’s case, because, as I said, we are equivalent. I think I have answered most of the points that noble Lords raised.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
I apologise for interrupting the Minister again. He said we are now undertaking “preliminary discussions” about how this would be handled if we leave without a deal, but that these discussions “may take some time”—I think I heard him say that. Is he suggesting that, if we leave without a deal on 29 March, there will be an unavoidable gap in mutual recognition of data protection law, which we—or rather businesses—will have to cope with somehow? That may have a significant adverse impact.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
Yes, because it is literally impossible to have an adequacy decision until you are a third country. Therefore, you cannot have an adequacy decision in advance. What you can do, and I should have said preliminarily that we have been discussing this—I raised it over a year ago—is start the discussions with the EU, but the decision itself cannot be made before exit day. It is impossible.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
There are mitigations which prevent that—standard contractual clauses and binding corporate rules. Plus, it depends a lot on the proportionate approach that the regulators in the EU take. There would be an impact; we would have to arrange mitigations, which would be a cost to business. That is what has been set out in the technical notice to business.
Baroness Ludford
The Minister is making a very good case for why there should have been an impact assessment.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I am making a very good case for why we want a deal. As I have said several times, we want a deal.
I think I have been through most of the questions raised by noble Lords. The important thing about this statutory instrument is to have a fully functioning data protection regime. If we go back to the original reasons why we passed the Data Protection 2018 with a fair bit—a lot, I would say—of cross-party support, the reason that it is important is to give individuals protection for their personal data. We must bear that in mind. These regulations will preserve that protection for individuals and set us on the road to a successful conclusion of our adequacy agreement when we get to the stage where the EU will allow us to negotiate it. That is why I beg to move.
Electronic Communications and Wireless Telegraphy (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts(5 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Ashton of Hyde
That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 29 November 2018 be approved. Debated in Grand Committee on 23 January.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con))
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their contributions to the extensive debate in Grand Committee on Wednesday 23 January. I committed then to provide further information concerning the engagement with stakeholders that had occurred, especially with the UK Competitive Telecommunications Association. I wrote to all noble Lords who participated in the debate and placed a copy in the Library on 29 January. I hope that that was acceptable to noble Lords and I beg to move.
Lord Foster of Bath (LD)
My Lords, we had a full debate in Grand Committee on this statutory instrument last week and I place on record my gratitude to the Minister for the comprehensive letter that he sent to many of us following our deliberations on that occasion. I am sure that it will be a great pleasure to the Minister to know that I do not intend to revisit all the points that I raised on that occasion, with the exception of one, which is very important.
A general point has been occupying and concerning Members of your Lordships’ House in relation to our leaving the European Union, not least during a debate on 30 January on the Trade Bill. There was much discussion about the vital importance, following our exit from the European Union, of remaining as close as we possibly can to all the various organisations within the European Union that determine the rules on which trade between the UK and the European Union will depend.
The Minister will be well aware that, in relation to the specific business and trading arrangements that will occur between the UK and the EU, with this instrument we are talking about the broadband and telecoms industries. I note with great interest, in the light of the debate that we have just had on roaming charges, what the Government said in their technical notice issued on 13 September last year, which stated that,
“irrespective of the outcome of the negotiations between the UK and the EU, we do not expect there to be significant impacts on how businesses operate under the telecoms regulatory framework and how consumers of telecoms services are protected”.
But we have just heard in relation to roaming charges that that simply does not stack up and that there will be serious implications for our telecoms and broadband sectors. They are very important to the economy of this country. For instance, telecoms has revenues of something like £40 billion. There are going to be significant impacts.
The Minister was very clear in relation to roaming charges that because we are leaving the European Union we cannot participate in harmonised roaming arrangements. We have to accept that we have to face the consequences of a no-deal situation. I suggest to the Minister that there is one area in which we could try to do what we can to mitigate some of the consequences that will occur following exit, in relation to the way in which we seek to participate in the very body that will determine the rules under which our telecoms and broadband organisations will have to operate. As the Minister well knows, as we have debated this on many occasions, that body is BEREC. It brings together all the relevant regulators, including our highly regarded UK regulator Ofcom, to discuss all the rules that will affect everybody.
The House will be well aware that very recently the European Union introduced the new Electronic Communications Code, which will have a significant bearing on how all the industries throughout the 27 and within the UK operate in future. In future there will be further changes to those rules, and it is therefore very important that we do everything in our power to remain involved. I accept that there will not be the opportunity to be a full member with voting rights, but it is important that we remain as close to BEREC as possible. That view is shared by many organisations, not least Ofcom. It has pointed out that in future BEREC will be hugely influential in, for instance, changes to the European Electronic Communications Code, and in any new guidelines on international roaming, net neutrality and many other issues. It said:
“Even if the UK is not bound to follow EU laws, the approach taken at EU level on these issues will continue to be relevant to the UK and to many of the companies we regulate, many of whom also have operations in other EU countries or are subsidiaries of international telecoms groups that have substantial operations in other countries”.
It gives the examples of Telefónica, Three, Virgin Media and Vodafone, and goes on to say:
“There are also more general benefits from participation in EU networks since they provide a forum in which we can cultivate and sustain bilateral relationships with our EU peers, at both senior and working levels, to exchange experiences and share best practices”.
It is clear that Ofcom believes it is important to remain as close as it can to BEREC. I believe it is important for our telecoms and broadband industries in the UK, and I am delighted that the Government seem to share that view: in the other place on 7 January the Minister, Margot James, said that,
“the Government recognise that Ofcom would benefit from the continued exchange of best practice with other regulators, and from the exchange of information about telecoms matters more generally”.—[Official Report, Commons, Delegated Legislation Committee, 7/1/19; col. 6.]
Given that we are all agreed, the question is: how is that going to be achieved? When we debated this in the Moses Room, the Minister said very clearly that he was confident that, because Ofcom is such a highly regarded regulator, BEFEC would be very keen to involve it. One would hope that that would be the case.
However, the Minister is also aware that he is part of a Government who have signed up to the withdrawal agreement, which contains within it at Article 128 a very clear statement that our bodies and expert groups, such as Ofcom, will not be able to participate in gatherings such as BEREC. It is clear that they cannot do that, or can do so only in certain circumstances—I suspect the Minister is about to get up and give the exceptions; if he wants to do so rather than me, I am happy to give way.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
That is kind of the noble Lord. Is he aware that this is a no-deal SI and that therefore the withdrawal agreement does not apply?
Lord Foster of Bath
I absolutely accept that; my point is that we need to look at the attitude of the Government towards their relationship with bodies such as BEREC. If, even without a no-deal situation—that is, even within the withdrawal agreement, where it is hoped there will be a deal—the Government are supporting a mechanism that they have written themselves, which makes it difficult for Ofcom to be involved in BEREC, then we should have some real concern.
I have drawn attention—I will not repeat the detail in your Lordships’ House now—to how Article 128 makes it difficult for Ofcom to be involved in BEREC. During the debate on the Trade Bill, the Minister concerned gave a very different interpretation of that situation. He made it clear that he thinks it will be perfectly possible for Ofcom to be involved. I challenged that Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Bates, on whether he agreed with my interpretation or with that of his noble friend. I was somewhat surprised by the answer he gave. He said:
“The noble Lord, Lord Foster of Bath, made an interesting point about the reputation of Ofcom, which of course we all recognise as a world-leading authority. He then offered me a pretty difficult choice of choosing between his persuasive speech and the words uttered in Committee by my colleague in government, my noble friend Lord Ashton of Hyde. Given that I speak from the Government Benches, I am afraid that I must side with my noble friend Lord Ashton in this regard”.—[Official Report, 30/1/19; col. 1156.]
So two Ministers now have disagreed with my interpretation of whether we will be able to participate closely with BEREC. I end with a simple question for the Minister today: will he give a clear assurance that, in the event of no deal, it will be the Government’s intention to take all necessary steps to ensure the maximum co-operation between Ofcom and BEREC?
Lord Pannick
I share the noble Lord’s concern. It is all very puzzling. That agreement is of course a premise that contradicts the premise of these regulations. As the noble Lord says, these regulations are entirely on the premise that there is no agreement. What is puzzling is that if there is an agreement, the circumstances in which Ofcom would be able to participate in BEREC appear to be very restrictive indeed. There is therefore real concern that, in the event of no agreement, it might be said by BEREC that the circumstances in which Ofcom could participate could not be greater than the circumstances if there were an agreement. That is why I ask the Minister to confirm that it is the Government’s intention that Ofcom should be able to participate, which is obviously sensible and desirable for everybody. Has there been any discussion with our European colleagues on whether that can and will be secured in the event of no deal?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their questions and comments. If I may, I will restrict myself to the matters which pertain to this SI which, as the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, has just outlined, is a no-deal SI. I thank noble Lords, especially the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, and my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe for their comments—I omitted to thank my noble friend for supporting me last night and I am glad she is doing so again, despite that.
It is worth touching briefly on the issue raised by the noble Lord, Lord Foster. He said in Grand Committee that he expected to raise this again, so I thank him for that warning. He has quoted me a number of times, referring to what I and my honourable friend the Minister have said, and alluded that there was a problem between us. There is not. He neglected to mention that in Grand Committee, I also said that Ofcom,
“does not have the right to do these things”.
We were talking about membership of BEREC and attending meetings. I continued:
“That is not surprising, because we are leaving the EU. Why should it have the right?”—[Official Report, 23/1/19; col. GC 97.]
I made the point that as we leave the EU, there is no right to do that. However, that does not mean that we would not wish to pursue this, so let me address the points the noble Lord made about the potential difficulties.
The main purpose of BEREC is to ensure the consistent implementation of the EU regulatory framework. That is significant, not least in influencing the development of EU soft law. On the UK’s position, it is true that Ofcom has been a member of BEREC since 2010, and has been actively involved in that time. It is a well-respected, national regulatory authority. As I said, on leaving the EU—which is what we are dealing with here—it will not be possible for Ofcom to retain its membership automatically. That is right, as we will not participate in the EU regulatory framework. In the event of no deal, Ofcom’s ability to participate will be governed by the BEREC regulations themselves, as the noble Lord, Lord Foster, said.
The new BEREC regulation provides that BEREC should be open to the participation of regulatory authorities from third countries, where those countries have entered into agreements with the EU to that effect. There has to be a bilateral agreement, as I said, but that agreement need concern only the observer status of BEREC; it does not have to be a future economic framework, or a data adequacy agreement. The noble Lords, Lord Pannick and Lord Foster, asked whether we have done anything to ensure that. They also asked about our future intentions on trying to become an observer of BEREC. We are doing what Switzerland, which is in a similar position to us, is doing. Ofcom has already had conversations with BEREC; it is keen to have observer status and the Government encourage that. We will have to see how that develops.
The questions the noble Lord, Lord Foster, raised about Article 128 of the withdrawal agreement do not pertain to this. However, if they do, that will be in the context of a deal and that is the best way of encouraging co-operation. We want to get a deal and I hope that we do. The Government encourage Ofcom in its attempt to be an observer. As I said in Grand Committee, we think it would be of mutual benefit and that it would be of benefit to BEREC, apart from anything else; we encourage Ofcom in its endeavours.
Motion agreed.
Mobile Roaming Charges
Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts(5 years, 8 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat in the form of a Statement the Answer to an Urgent Question in another place. The Statement is as follows:
“Delivering a negotiated deal with the EU remains the Government’s top priority. This has not changed. However, I am sure the House will agree that we must prepare for every eventuality, including a no-deal scenario. We have taken a number of steps as a Government, working with businesses, consumers and the devolved Administrations, to make sure that we deliver the best possible outcome for mobile users in the event of no deal.
The Government will legislate to make sure that the requirements on mobile operators to apply a financial limit on mobile data usage while abroad is retained in UK law. The limit would be set at £45 for each monthly billing period, which is the same limit as the one currently in place. We will also legislate to ensure that customers receive alerts at 80% and 100% of data usage. These measures would mean clarity and certainty for consumers and would make sure that they are able to plan their spending and usage accordingly.
I know that there is also concern on the island of Ireland, and in some other areas, about the issue of inadvertent roaming. This is when a mobile signal in a border region is stronger from the country across the border. So, the Government also intend to retain through UK law the EU roaming regulation provisions that set out how operators must make information available to their customers on how to avoid inadvertent roaming.
The Government are working hard to make sure that everyone is prepared and ready for all outcomes. I encourage all businesses to read our technical notice on mobile roaming in the event of leaving without a deal, which we published last summer. This is one of 106 technical notices to help businesses understand what they would need to do in a no-deal scenario so that they can make informed plans and preparations.
However, we should be clear that surcharge-free roaming for UK customers may continue across the EU as it does now, based on operators’ commercial arrangements. Leaving without a deal would not prevent UK mobile operators making and honouring commercial arrangements with mobile operators in the EU—and beyond the EU—to deliver the services their customers expect, including roaming arrangements. The availability and pricing of mobile roaming in the EU would be a commercial question for the mobile operators. However, many mobile operators, including Three, EE, O2 and Vodafone, which cover more than 85% of mobile subscribers, have already said that they have no current plans to change their approach to mobile roaming after the UK leaves the EU.
I hope that the steps I have set out will reassure the House that as a Government we are committed to a smooth and orderly transition as we leave the EU. In our telecoms sector, just as in all sectors, we are putting the right plans in place for all outcomes as we leave. That is the role of a responsible Government and that is what we will continue to do”.
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
Well, my Lords, that sounds extraordinarily complacent and very much, “Not me, guv”. Has the Minister seen the report on the Huffington Post UK website about proposals from his department that pave the way for major increases to mobile phone bills for UK citizens travelling in Europe post Brexit? Our businesses, manufacturing firms, struggling SMEs and new start-ups are already having to prepare for how they will do business in Europe post Brexit. This will be a bitter blow for those companies marketing their products or looking for investment in the EU.
Is this not just another cost to British businesses from the Government’s mishandling of Brexit? In effect, it is a trade tax. Given the similar proposals in the statutory instrument on credit cards forcing higher charges on UK businesses, does the Minister really understand the impact that this double whammy is going to have on UK enterprise? Will he commit today, in the interests of UK plc, to withdraw both of these orders and think again?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
My Lords, I think that there may be some misunderstanding about this. The Huffington Post commented on an SI that was laid which is a no-deal SI. The best way that noble Lords and Members of the other place can prevent these changes happening is to agree a deal. However, if there is no deal we have to face the inevitable consequences of that. A lot of the issues that have arisen not only with this subject but with other SIs stem from not distinguishing between the effect of the SI itself and the effect of leaving the EU. In this case, it is not fair to say that we have not prepared for that. In fact, the technical notice that outlined all these considerations was issued in September. It is not a question of simply withdrawing the instrument; if we are no longer in the EU, we will not be able to prevent EU operators increasing charges to UK operators. They will then have to accept those higher charges, which inevitably will be passed on to consumers. The issue is that if we leave the EU we will not be able to participate in the harmonised wholesale roaming prices, so I do not accept the analysis of the noble Baroness. That is why it is not possible to withdraw the SI, if we are acting responsibly in the event of no deal.
Baroness Ludford (LD)
My Lords, the best way to avoid these changes is of course no Brexit. Surely the Minister will agree that the slashing of mobile roaming charges in the EU is one of the biggest successes for British consumers, travellers and businesses. British Ministers and MEPs played a big part in this triumph to stop rip-offs and nasty surprises on bills. Now the Government intend to steal this benefit from British citizens, even though they think it likely that costs will be passed on to consumers through the choice they have made. Why have the Government chosen—and it is a choice—not to impose a retail roaming price cap? Is this deregulation policy a foretaste of the Government’s intentions in other sectors? What estimate have the Government made of the total extra costs for a British holidaymaker arising from the reintroduction of roaming charges, the loss of the EHIC card, likely increases in the cost of travel insurance and EU fees for a visa-lite? Should the Government not put this choice back to the British people so that they can decide whether they want to Brexit at all?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I do agree with the noble Baroness on one thing: this has been a great benefit since it was introduced 18 months ago. Of course, it did not exist until then. When we decided to leave, there were inevitable consequences. What I do not understand from her question is how she thinks, within the powers available to the UK, we could do something different. If we set a retail price cap, UK operators will have to accept all the increased charges and as sure as anything, those will have to be passed on to all consumers. The difference is that she would penalise all consumers, while this measure affects only those who roam in the EU.
Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)
My Lords, I think it fair to say that over many years, British MEPs were involved in this progress for the consumer. It is one of the great benefits we got—however else people might feel about this—from our membership of the European Union and the work that was done in the European Parliament. I know there are some restrictions on what my noble friend can do. However, great powers are available to the Government in their dealings with the telecommunications companies—most of which are international, based not just in Europe but here in this country—to make it clear that we do not expect them to penalise those who have these hard-fought-for benefits, to make up for which other allowances have been made to the telecommunications companies.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I agree with my noble friend, and that is why we are retaining in UK law the requirement for them to notify their customers about the amount they spend on roaming per month at the same limit expressed in pounds sterling as is currently available, putting into law that they have to notify their customers when they reach 80% and 100% of their data usage and requiring them to take reasonable steps to prevent inadvertent roaming. We understand that they have responsibilities and that it is a consumer benefit, but that is why we are doing that. We have had constructive discussions with the telecoms industry. Partly because of the competition environment in this country, unlike in some others, consumers have a choice. At the moment, as I said, those that cover 85% have said that, despite the changes that would happen in a no-deal Brexit, they have no plans to increase. They will accept the increased costs while they can.
Lord Rooker (Lab)
My Lords, as my noble friend on the Front Bench said, this is exactly analogous to what is in a statutory instrument waiting somewhere in this House on credit card use outside the UK. When that issue came before sifting committee B a few weeks ago, we noticed that the restrictions on charges were only for UK use. Our advisers had already been back to the Government to check why this was the case. We were told it was a conscious decision by the Treasury to allow extra charges on UK citizens using their credit cards in Europe. In other words, it could be stopped. This is exactly the same situation, and it is not good enough for the Minister to say, “Oh well, we will see competition”. The fact of the matter is that the idea was to transfer EU law for our citizens to be exactly the same on 30 March as on 29 March. In this case, it is not. We are deliberately allowing people to be ripped off, and it is a conscious decision by the Government. We were informed of that, and in due course we will get the chance to debate the credit card issue.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
First of all, I point out that this did not appear at the sifting committee, because we made the conscious choice to allow this to be an affirmative SI when it could have been a negative one, so we are not trying to evade—
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I am glad the noble Lord, from a sedentary position, admits we have been generous on that. I have not noticed a lack of scrutiny from him on other SIs. Moving on, it is not true to say that this is a conscious choice to penalise consumers. If we are not able to participate in the EU harmonisation of wholesale prices, there are inevitable consequences of that. This SI therefore tries to retain the benefits for consumers that are able to be put into UK law, which we are doing, bearing in mind that we will no longer be part of the EU single market.
Lord Hain (Lab)
My Lords, surely the Minister could agree that “no plans to”—his words—is not the same as a guarantee. In the EU we have a guarantee of no additional data roaming charges or voice roaming charges outside our bundle. He is not providing any guarantee at all, and it is about time he did.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
That is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the position. Currently, we have a guarantee because we are part of the EU single market. If we leave the EU single market, which is what this SI is about, we will not be able to provide that guarantee. Therefore, I am incapable of giving the noble Lord the guarantee that he asks for. We have been completely open about that. That is why I said that the four companies have no plans for increases. Of course there is no guarantee about that, and we would not be in a position to command it if we are not in the EU. The issue is not about the SI but about the consequences of leaving the EU.
Broadcasting (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
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Lord Ashton of Hyde
That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 13 December 2018 be approved.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)
My Lords, now that we have disposed of the business expected to be brief, I am glad that we can get on to the main business.
These instruments are being made under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. They make appropriate amendments to correct deficiencies in domestic broadcasting law in a no-deal EU exit scenario. I think we can all agree that, no matter what our respective views on EU exit are, we need to ensure that television services available in the UK are regulated properly and that the public continue to be effectively protected from harmful content after we leave the EU. We also need to make sure that the same laws and rules that are currently in place in the UK continue to apply, providing continuity and certainty.
I have to stress that these draft regulations address only the necessary technical amendments to ensure that the law is operative on exit day, rather than introducing sweeping new powers into law. The Delegated Legislation Committee has been content with these draft regulations and Her Majesty’s Opposition in the other place agreed that,
“this is a necessary measure that has to be taken”.—[Official Report, Commons, Sixth Delegated Legislation Committee, 29/1/19; col. 5.]
As noble Lords may know, the European Union’s Audiovisual Media Services Directive currently underpins several pieces of UK primary legislation, including the Communications Act 2003. We are therefore using Section 8 powers from the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 to fix deficiencies in primary legislation to ensure that Ofcom continues to have jurisdiction over services that are available to UK audiences, or are established in the UK.
Let me summarise the main provisions of the draft regulations and why they are important. If we leave the EU without an agreement in place, the Audiovisual Media Services Directive will no longer apply. The directive—“AVMSD” as it is commonly known—establishes minimum content standards and provides for freedom of reception and retransmission for audio-visual services such as television and video on demand. Crucially, AVMSD provides that a service which is regulated in one member state can adhere to that country’s rules while being available all across the EU. Services are thus allowed to operate with a single regulator’s licence, regardless of where the service is received in the EU. This is known as the country of origin principle.
In the event of the UK exiting the EU without a deal, the country of origin system of authorising services would be deficient, as reciprocal arrangements created by AVMSD would no longer exist. Without the amendments carried out through this instrument, television services originating in EU member states would still be allowed to be broadcast in the UK without a licence, thereby leaving the UK with no possibility of regulating the content of such services and protecting UK viewers from harmful content. The draft regulations remedy this deficiency by introducing the country of destination principle, which will require any television service that is available in the UK, whatever its country of origin, to be licensed by Ofcom.
However, a licence will not be required for television services provided by broadcasters in those countries that have signed and ratified the Council of Europe’s European Convention on Transfrontier Television, known as the ECTT, which the draft regulations would implement into UK law. The ECTT was signed and ratified by the UK in 1993, but it has not been implemented into UK law because of a disconnect clause in the convention which provides that EU member states must apply the relevant EU legislation in their mutual relations instead. The convention provides for a similar system of freedom of reception and transmission between the parties to the convention as the country of origin principle. All but seven of the EU 27 countries are parties to the ECTT.
Lord Puttnam (Lab)
My Lords, is there anything in the Ofcom response to indicate that any of these changes will benefit the UK production economy, or indeed the UK economy in general? Is there anything in the Ofcom response that suggests this is not negative?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
My Lords, I am very grateful for all those interesting points and particularly for the speed at which they were delivered. We might set a record on this SI, with any luck.
Lord Adonis
Does the noble Lord think we are going too fast? We can certainly slow down.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I cannot always keep up with the noble Lord, but I will try. I am very grateful, as I said in our last outing, for his interest in DCMS matters, which is fairly new.
I shall start in a fairly random order with answers to some quick questions before we get on to some of the points that the noble Lord, Lord Foster, made. The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, asked whether non-ECTT EU countries would be required, therefore, to be licensed in this country. The answer is yes: we have identified 50 to 60 channels which may need a licence from Ofcom in order to continue to be received in the UK. These are mainly specialist minority channels, religious channels and adult services.
Lord Pannick
May I ask a question in relation to that? Would it not be more sensible, given that these broadcasters have been broadcasting into this country already and have been licensed in an EU member state, to grant them a licence automatically, rather than their having to apply? Then, of course, Ofcom would regulate them thereafter. If there is a problem, Ofcom may impose conditions or sanctions on them.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
If I am allowed to continue, those services that now need to apply for a licence so that they can continue to be available to UK audiences will have a grace period of six months, so they will continue to broadcast into this country. They will have six months to apply for a licence. It is necessary for them to apply for a licence because they should still be regulated by Ofcom in this country; otherwise we cannot control what they produce because we will not have recourse to the EU dispute resolution services. Of course, the six months is not a difficult problem for them because they start on the same basis—today, they are regulated by the AVMSD. We will start on an equal footing for Ofcom to begin to regulate them after the grace period of six months.
Lord Pannick
I am grateful to the Minister, but that does not address my point. Why should these broadcasters, who are already broadcasting into this country with, presumably, no difficulty at all, have to go through the administratively burdensome task of applying for a licence after six months? Why should Ofcom have to consider the details of their case and grant them a licence? Would it not be more sensible to say, “Let us continue the status quo, let us deem them to have a licence and, thereafter, Ofcom can regulate them”? Why a new licence? That is my question.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
Effectively, that is what is happening after six months. They are being allowed to continue for six months, after which they will have to have a licence. The reason Ofcom is licensing them is so that, in the future, we can make sure that the content they produce is in accordance with the licensing conditions, which we would not be able to do if we were relying only on the AVMSD.
The noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, asked about the Ofcom response and whether there was anything positive or negative. First, there was not a response per se, so it was not asked that question. It was, of course, consulted and the basis of this SI—here I have to disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Pannick—is not trying to create new policy, because all it is trying to allow is for television channels that would otherwise not be regulated to be regulated, because the method by which Ofcom regulates channels is using the AVMSD, and that will not apply any more. Where the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, is correct is that he gets to the crux of the problem, which is that leaving the EU is the issue that may or may not create a problem for broadcasters, not the actual details of this SI.
The noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, asked what advice I would give broadcasters. My advice to them would be to read the technical notice that we published in September: it precisely answers the question of what they should do and gives such things as the order of priority for being recognised in EU countries, whether it is establishment criteria or technical criteria such as satellite uplink. That is explained there and it makes the point, which I shall come to later, that ECTT may not be the answer in every case and that they should take advice and will possibly be required to have a licence. I shall come to that in a minute. I was foolish to think this would be quick.
The noble Lord, Lord Foster, mentioned video on demand. It is true that one of the differences is that the ECTT does not cover video on demand because, as noble Lords mentioned, it is a relatively old convention. I have to echo my friend in the other place: we are aware of the need to consider a long-term approach to regulating those video on-demand services that are available in the UK, but we cannot do it in this statutory instrument. It would be new policy, to take the point of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, if we started regulating video on demand. There are some video on-demand channels today, for example, that come from America and are unregulated. We accept that it is a problem and we will have to deal with it in the future, but not through this SI.
The noble Lord, Lord Foster, and my noble friend Lady McIntosh talked about support for the sector: I think they were talking about the creative industries in general rather than just broadcasting. There is no change in the direct impact on such things as creative sector tax relief, which will still apply because they are established in UK legislation and the cost is entirely borne by the UK Exchequer. We have provided reassurance that the Government will underwrite the payments of awards for programmes such as Creative Europe, and have entered into a number of bilateral film and television co-production agreements with other countries, including Canada, Australia and China. I think my noble friend was talking about co-production in particular. We are also party to the Council of Europe’s Convention on Cinematographic Co-production, which will continue to operate after exit. There is a new version of that convention which we are intending to sign.
Lastly, and very importantly, this SI means that, by implementing the ECTT, UK content will continue to qualify as European works. The EU Commission has confirmed that will be true, even if we leave with no deal.
Baroness McIntosh of Pickering
Presumably this is potentially one of the measures in the £39 billion package that we will agree if we have a deal on leaving, because that particular line of the European budget, to which we will have been subscribed in this seven-year period, relates to co-productions. It was very specific, and has brought benefits to this country. I do not expect my noble friend to have the answer at his fingertips, but I would be grateful if he could write to me.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I thank my noble friend. I do not have it at my fingertips—mainly because this is a no-deal SI, and that is the basis on which I have prepared—but I will write to my noble friend with that answer.
The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, mentioned in a rather pessimistic way that this was the end of the jewel in the crown of broadcasting. I was not sure whether he was talking about broadcasting or the creative industries. I have mentioned that we will continue to support the creative industries. I agree that they are a jewel in the crown. We are, of course, aware of some reports in the media about broadcasters relocating their licence to other countries. But the reports also suggest that companies are relocating only a minority of their workforce, in order to comply with the licensing requirements. There are no signs of a mass exodus from the UK. It is too early to tell, but the technical notice spells out clearly that it is not always necessary to transfer even the head office or the editorial elements of a company to qualify for an EU licence under the AVMSD. Most broadcaster satellite uplinks are in France or Luxembourg, so, if you can use technical methods such as the satellite uplink, technically you can get a licence in one of those two countries because that would bring you under the jurisdiction of the AVMSD.
Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)
My Lords, on the question that the Minister has just addressed, have the Government made any assessment of the likely impact on the creative industries, a sector whose income they broadly welcome on a regular basis?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
This SI does not relate specifically to the creative industries; it is more to do with the broadcasting industry. There is a link between the broadcasting industry and the creative industries, but this deals with things such as production, which have historically tended to follow broadcasting. We have not made that assessment yet, because it is too early to tell, but clearly there is the possible danger that, if all broadcasters move their editorial and head offices to an EU country, production might go with them. Obviously, that would depend on where they go. It is too early to tell on that specific point, but the tax credits and other things I talked about will specifically help the creative industry, rather than broadcasters.
Lord Liddle
I am grateful to the Minister for answering the points I raised, but I am concerned about two things. First, I am a bit disturbed to hear that the Government are reading about what is happening in the newspapers, rather than being in constant consultation with this important sector of the industry. Secondly, if there were good will, the European convention might be an adequate substitute for European regulation; but in this situation we are talking about no deal, where there will be no good will.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
We are not—as noble Lords might have realised—reading about this only in the papers, although we do read them. We have had extensive consultation—not perhaps the public consultation where all pros and cons are publicised, as the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, would prefer. But noble Lords should be under no illusions: we have had extensive consultation on this situation and this specific SI, not only with Ofcom, which has been instrumental in drafting the SI to address the problems of regulation of television services—how they should be construed and defined—but with the sector. We have organised round tables at ministerial and official level. We have included AETN, AMC Networks, BBC Studios, Channel 4, Discovery Channel, Disney, ITV, NBCUniversal, Nordic Entertainment Group, Sky, Sony, WarnerMedia, Viacom and Viasat. We have met these and further broadcasters on a bilateral basis, because a lot of these discussions are commercially sensitive, depending on what they are going to do with their establishments to meet the problems of Brexit. I reiterate that this is an issue about Brexit, not about this SI, which is about the regulation—making sure that a regulatory system exists if we have no deal.
Lord Griffiths of Burry Port
I say simply that to have mentioned in the memorandum that this impressive list of people had been consulted in various ways might have allowed us to finish in record time, as the hope for that had been expressed.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I take that point, although I would not bet on it myself. On that point, I emphasise that the ministerial round tables took place not just once but regularly between August 2016 and March 2017, led by the Secretary of State, and in March and July in 2018, led by the Minister. But I take the point about explaining that. The difference between this and the SI we talked about the other day is the commercial sensitivity of the decisions that have to be made in moving head offices, the effect on the workforce, and so on.
I will address the general issue of whether we are being complacent about relying on the ECTT. We acknowledge that it might be possible that some services will require two licences—one for the purposes of the AVMSD, and one for Ofcom—because this is the case for services which are available in both ECTT and non-ECTT countries. In the way that these services are received—by satellite—it is difficult to exclude some countries from the distribution. There are about 500 Europe-facing services out of the 1,200 that Ofcom currently licenses. To date, we are aware of about 130 licences moving. It is fair to say that broadcasters are concerned about the risk of dual regulation, and are reluctant to rely on the ECTT—it is considered an untested convention, as EU law has been in place for so long. Nevertheless, I am sure noble Lords would agree that we should not ignore conventions and international agreements that we have signed up to, nor should the other countries which have signed them.
Lord Foster of Bath
If we follow the Minister’s logic, he said earlier that there are about 50 or 60 channels that are currently not EEA members but which are based there, and which will need a licence. They will get a six-month period, a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. In view of what the Minister is saying, is it not quite likely that the number of channels that are in EEA EU countries will themselves decide to get an Ofcom licence? What assessment has he made of the number that may well choose to do that, and in considering that, is he aware that the latest information I have received is that only one company is considering basing all of its planning on the ECTT? Following from that, presumably there will potentially be a large number of people wanting licences from Ofcom, so can he also tell us how long it will take Ofcom to deal with each licence and whether it will be able to get through the requisite number in the six-month period?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I do not agree with that premise. We have said that we will apply the ECTT, and in fact, this SI brings it into law.
Lord Foster of Bath
That was not the point I was making. The point is that I understand that it is quite likely that a number of companies that are providing services to the UK, which could rely on the ECTT to not require a licence, will, none the less, make the decision that it is in the best interests of their protection to seek such a licence from Ofcom. Presumably, they will be required to do it within the same six-month period, so there is a potential problem with the number of licences that Ofcom can handle.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I am still not clear why, given that we have explained that we will accept ECTT countries, they think they should have to take the precautionary approach of getting a licence as well.
Lord Foster of Bath
I will give a specific example: it could be in relation to the differences that exist in the advertising regime, to pick up the point I raised earlier in my initial contribution about any changes that we might make. Given that there is not a formal legal redress system under the ECTT, they may feel it better to have a licence here and simply stick to the rules that we impose.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
Of course, that is a possibility that was not available to them under the AVMSD, and it may be of benefit to them. It is impossible to say. I agree that they may do that. I think it is unlikely, but the noble Lord is absolutely right that it is possible.
Very few services would be able to rely solely on the ECTT. First, the main broadcasters already have a physical presence in the EU, which brings them into EU jurisdiction. As I said, it is also extremely difficult to limit services to being available in purely ECTT countries because of the way that satellite transmission works. One of the problems with the AVMSD is that it does not set down any hard and fast rules about which services fall to be regulated; it talks about services receivable on standard consumer equipment, which is a benefit that the new Ofcom definition will address.
To date, we are not aware of any companies currently licensed in the UK which intend to rely on the ECTT. The smaller companies based in the UK which provide an EU-facing service only would be able to access the AVMSD market under the technical criteria, based on their satellite uplink. Therefore, I do not think we are being complacent about relying purely on the ECTT. The evidence for that is the fact that in the technical notice, we specifically said:
“If the service is available in the EU and only available in one or more of the 20 ECTT countries noted above, freedom of reception should be permitted in accordance with ECTT. However, you should seek local legal advice to check how national law deals with ECTT obligations to permit freedom of reception of the service and what action (if any) needs to be taken … You should be aware that you may need to have two licences”.
We have been clear on that.
Finally, I confirm to the noble Lord, Lord Foster, our commitment to regulate video on-demand services. Just to reiterate, a letter that my honourable friend the Digital Minister wrote to Kevin Brennan in the other place says that the Government are aware of the need to consider a long-term approach to regulating video on-demand services in the UK but that such changes cannot be introduced under the draft regulations.
I hope that I have covered most of the points that noble Lords raised. I am grateful for them.
Social Media: Online Anonymity
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Lord Kennedy of Southwark
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking, or intend to take, to deal with online abuse by people using anonymous social media accounts.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)
My Lords, online anonymity is an important part of a free and open internet—but being anonymous online does not give anyone the right to abuse others. The Government have made it clear that more needs to be done to tackle all kinds of online abuse. We will publish a joint DCMS-Home Office White Paper this winter, setting out a range of legislative and non-legislative measures and establishing clear standards for tech companies to help keep UK citizens safe.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, does the Minister accept and understand the huge concern of law-abiding citizens that people are hiding behind anonymous accounts and making threats to kill, to rape, to assault and to bully, using racist, anti-Semitic and Islamophobic language? The platforms that host these people have done nowhere near enough to deal with this problem. If they will not get their own house in order, the Government must make them, through legislation. Will the Minister impress on his colleagues in government that the forthcoming White Paper must make that clear to them?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I am happy to be able to agree with the noble Lord. Let us be clear: when abuse exceeds the threshold and moves into criminality, in most cases so-called anonymous perpetrators are actually traceable, so they can be prosecuted according to the law. I recognise the public disquiet about this, and, as the noble Lord said, we are considering what more can be done, by non-legislative means but also, when required, by legislation—and there will be legislation. We will consider what to do about anonymous abuse specifically, and we will address that in the online harms White Paper, which, as I said, is due out this winter.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
My Lords, does my noble friend recall that we got a dramatic improvement in attitudes towards health and safety when we made the directors of the company personally liable for it? Should we not do the same for internet service providers?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
One of the things we are considering is a duty of care. That might include holding directors personally responsible. We have not decided that yet, but it is certainly an idea worth considering. As it is a White Paper that is coming out this winter, there will be a consultation on it, so we welcome views from my noble friend.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, the Law Commission, in its scoping report last November into abusive and online communications, said that one of the key barriers to the pursuit of online defenders was,
“tracing and proving the identity of perpetrators, and the cost of doing so”.
I heard what the Minister said about the White Paper’s contents, but will the Government include a provision allowing the stripping of anonymity in circumstances of online crime? Have the Government had any discussions with the police or other enforcement agencies to understand the issues they face in tracking these perpetrators and bringing them to justice?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
It is certainly something worth considering in the White Paper, but as far as dealing with the police is concerned, the Home Office is working with policing to identify ways to tackle this when it goes over the threshold into criminality. These are relatively new crimes; the police will have to evolve methods to deal with them. We have also worked with the office of the Director of Public Prosecutions. There is a digital intelligence investigation programme, aiming to ensure policing has the ability to investigate the digital elements of all crime types. Also, the Home Office is working with the College of Policing to drive improvements in overall police capability to investigate and prosecute online offences.
Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)
My Lords, going back to the Minster’s original response, in what sense does he believe anonymity helps freedom of speech?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I said “if”—we do not think only about this country. That is one example. If you are a 15 year-old girl who is being abused, being able to go on to the internet to ask for health advice or let people know about it is an example of where anonymity can sometimes help.
Baroness Fall (Con)
My Lords, our children grow up in a world that is under huge pressure from social media. They never get a day, or, indeed, a night off. This is a world where no one seems to take accountability or responsibility for what is said at all. While we all argue among ourselves about what to do, I urge the Minister and those drawing up the White Paper to start with the simple but powerful principle of transparency. We should not allow people to hide behind the veil of anonymity.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
As I said, sometimes anonymity is the right thing, but I take on board what my noble friend says. We definitely believe that tech and social media companies need to take more responsibility. We have said that. The Secretary of State plans to visit them to outline some of the measures we propose to take. There is absolutely no doubt that there is general feeling in the public that something needs to be done to control these large social media companies. People have to take responsibility. We will make sure that that happens, with legislation if necessary.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, will the Minister get a copy of the speech made today by Tom Watson, the deputy leader of the Labour Party, on this subject, and consider each of his proposals carefully?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
As I said earlier, this is a White Paper and we are having a consultation. We certainly welcome views from everyone. I will make sure that the letter is looked at in the department—I probably will not even have to tell them to do that. However, we are trying to build a consensus. We have to take into account libertarian views, the need to preserve innovation for tech companies—which is so useful to our economy—and to protect vulnerable people, especially children.
Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)
My Lords, could we return to the issue of policing resources, which was alluded to earlier? There are two areas which have serious concerns for the police and also, therefore, perhaps for the Government. One is the recovery of digital evidence, which has already proved challenging in rape cases and other sexual offences where mobile phones have to be examined in great detail. The second point is that this is a people process as well as a hardware process. Both require lots of people, and at the moment, this explosion of criminal offences means that it is demanding an awful lot of people and cost at a time when police numbers are dropping. It is something that the Government have to consider seriously.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
Regarding the first part of the noble Lord’s question, we are supporting the Digital Public Contact, which will deliver a single online home for policing and provide a secure digital channel for the public to upload evidential material in a digital format. I have explained what we are doing with the College of Policing.
As for the second part of the noble Lord’s question, my noble friend the Home Office Minister is sitting next to me and I am sure has listened to his point.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)
My Lords, are the Government really prepared to take these companies on? I pray in aid the Government’s approach to getting them to pay proper tax in this country. Despite the huffing and puffing we have heard from the Chancellor, no action has been taken. Can the Minister assure me that the Government are prepared to take them on?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
In the area that we are responsible for, regarding online harms and safety, we are. As far as tax is concerned, that is a different matter and I do not have the responsibility for it. However, I am sure that the Chancellor will listen to the noble Lord’s views.
Broadcasting: Public Sector Content
Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts(5 years, 9 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)
My Lords, Ofcom has consulted on proposed changes to the linear EPG code and on how the prominence regime may need to change to ensure that public service content remains accessible, regardless of how consumers access it. That consultation closed in October 2018 and we look forward to receiving its findings in due course. If Ofcom makes it clear that there is a problem which needs fixing by legislation, we will look to bring that forward.
Baroness Benjamin
My Lords, children are being increasingly exposed to inappropriate content on social media, and public service broadcasting plays an important role in providing parents with a safe, trusted space where children can access high-quality, entertaining educational content—especially now that the new BFI contestable funding will be available to programme makers. However, it is difficult to find these PSB channels because no two electronic programme guides are the same. They are confusing and very frustrating. Does the Minister agree that it is essential we update the EPG rules as a matter of urgency, to ensure that viewers can easily access this excellent PSB content?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I agree that PSB content is important—in fact, 83% of people think that children’s provision by public service broadcasters is important. Ofcom’s consultation on the rules for prominence and proposed changes to the linear EPG includes a proposal for prominence for children’s PSB channels. Ofcom already has the powers to review and revise the code, so any final decision on changes to the linear prominence regime is a matter for it.
Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)
My Lords, it is unusual for both of my questions, carefully prepared, to have been answered before I put them, but that will not stop me asking the Minister to repeat the assurance he gave that, if the Ofcom report suggests that legislation is necessary, the Government will do it.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I can do better than that. I will repeat what the Secretary of State said to the DCMS shadow Secretary of State:
“The Government has made clear that if the Ofcom report concludes that there is a problem with the current prominence regime that needs fixing with the legislation, then we will look to bring that forward”.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)
My Lords, does public sector content include “Songs of Praise”, which the BBC insists on moving about to different times on Sunday, presumably with the ambition that it should eventually lose its audience altogether?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
As my noble friend knows well, editorial decisions are for the BBC, not the Government.
Viscount Colville of Culross (CB)
My Lords, the Sky Q box prioritises access to its services over PSB catch-up services. Many television manufacturers have partnered with Netflix to prioritise its services on their channel controllers. Is the Minister not concerned that the PSB digital channels, paid for with public money, are losing out in the battle for channel prominence to the video-on-demand giants?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
My Lords, I recognise that most of what we have talked about today is for linear services. Of course, a change is taking place: people now have subscriptions for watching on-demand programmes on their internet browsers. This creates a number of challenges and we have agreed that, if Ofcom makes suggestions that take that into account, we will bring legislation forward when the time arises.
Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury (LD)
My Lords, I fear I will ask the Minister to repeat, yet again, what he has said. Does he not agree that prominence is not a perk for PSBs but a fair and essential exchange? I do not know how many of you listened this morning to Radio 4’s “Start the Week”—a really quite frightening public service broadcast programme about the tech titans’ struggle for our individual attention. Will the Government commit to supporting the urgently needed updating of prominence rules through legislation?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
My Lords, I think I have done that—twice. We are aware that the technology is changing, and noble Lords might be interested to hear an example. More UK households now own a voice-activated smart speaker than own Britain’s third most popular pet: a rabbit.
Ofcom: RT News Channel
Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts(5 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the findings of Ofcom’s investigations into the RT news channel.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)
My Lords, investigations into RT are a matter for Ofcom as the independent communications regulator. On 20 December 2018, Ofcom announced that the RT news channel broke broadcasting rules in seven programmes. Ofcom is minded to consider a statutory sanction, and it is right that it makes decisions without government interference. On 17 January, RT announced that it will be seeking a judicial review of Ofcom’s findings. It is vital that as a society we remain vigilant regarding the spread of harmful disinformation, and Ofcom has strong powers to tackle it where it occurs in broadcast news.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, I am really grateful to the Minister for a very helpful Answer. Does he agree that it is ironic that RT takes advantage of the freedoms in this country that are not available in Russia? Will he nevertheless take some government action to stop RT, the Russian television agency, the Sputnik news agency, based in Edinburgh and London, and indeed all the social networks spreading the Kremlin’s fake news throughout this United Kingdom?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I thank the noble Lord. I agree, although I would not want to comment specifically on RT, for the reasons I have mentioned. However, in 2017 the Prime Minister said that the Russian state has been launching,
“a sustained campaign of cyber espionage and disruption”,
which has included,
“meddling in elections and hacking the Danish Ministry of Defence and the Bundestag”.
Therefore, I agree with the noble Lord’s view.
Regarding disinformation generally, we are working with the DfE to include information for schoolchildren on how to make judgments about what they read on social media, and a consultation will be coming out this year. We are also launching a programme of adult internet literacy, which will be very important in enabling older members of society to understand how this new technology works. In addition, we are engaged with international partners, such as the G7, the UN and the Council of Europe, but, above all, we are introducing the online harms White Paper, part of which will deal with tackling disinformation. Generally speaking, we will look at illegal harms and the much more difficult area of harms that are legal.
Viscount Ridley (Con)
My Lords, will my noble friend take into account the fact that RT and other Russian actors have produced strong propaganda against the shale gas industry and that this is having a real effect on the debate in this country?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
As I have said, RT is regulated by Ofcom, which is independent of government, and I know that it will do its job.
Viscount Colville of Culross (CB)
I declare an interest as a series producer for the Smithsonian Channel and CNN. A week after the ruling on RT, the personal details and photographs of journalists working in Russia for the BBC were leaked online. This action was publicly condoned by President Putin’s press office and was seen as an act—indeed, part of a pattern—of intimidation. At a time when the BBC’s Russian service had seen an annual increase of 20% in its audience, what are the Government doing to protect the BBC World Service and the Russian service within the Russian Federation?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
The BBC’s charter was renewed for 10 years. Its job is to provide impartial news, and Ofcom regulates those services. It has been given the financial backing to do that—£3.8 million of licence-payers’ money. I believe that an extra £219 million has been provided over the next four years to increase the number of Russian language programmes that the BBC World Service can produce.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)
It is clear that Ofcom is doing a thorough and effective job on this very difficult case. We hope it will move forward in an appropriate way. Does this case not raise the wider question of whether the holder of the broadcast licence here is a fit and proper person to carry out the duties for which it is responsible? The issue came up recently during the Sky takeover; there was common ground in the House that the existing rules, both through statute and through the precedents set in previous cases, mean that this is not an effective test. Are the Government going to do anything about that?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I do not want to talk specifically about RT for the reasons I mentioned. Ofcom has sanctions which can include fines, suspension or revocation of a licence if Ofcom deems that suitable.
Lord McNally (LD)
My Lords, is the Minister aware that Ofcom licenses many hundreds of broadcasters in London? This is a good example of what the noble Lord, Lord Howell, often refers to as Britain’s soft power. Is it not very important that we leave Ofcom to the job it was given with the powers it was given? The idea that some kind of political or government pressure was involved does not set a good precedent with regard to closing radio or television stations. We should let RT make its case to Ofcom, let Ofcom use its powers and then see what happens.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I completely agree with the noble Lord. That is why I said in my initial Answer that it is right for Ofcom to make decisions without government interference.
The Earl of Erroll (CB)
My Lords, the Minister is right that Ofcom is not responsible to the Government. but am I right in saying that it is responsible to Parliament?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I am not sure; I do not know whether it is responsible in a statutory sense but of course ultimately Parliament can decide what it wants. The main point is that, in a democratic society such as ours, the regulator of the news and of broadcasters should not be linked to government, especially the Executive. That is the situation we have now and I believe that it is working well.
Florence Nightingale: Bicentenary
Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts(5 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Crisp
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to commemorate the bicentenary of the birth of Florence Nightingale in 2020.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)
My Lords, the Department of Health and Social Care is working with the Chief Nursing Officer for England on plans for the occasion, and will focus on rightly celebrating those in the nursing professions. Plans include supporting the Nursing Now campaign across the NHS in England. In addition, the Florence Nightingale Museum—located across the river within St Thomas’ Hospital—is in early discussion with partners, including the Heritage Lottery Fund, regarding a number of events to mark the bicentenary.
Lord Crisp (CB)
I thank the Minister for his encouraging response, and I had better declare my interest as chairman of Nursing Now, which he just referred to. Florence Nightingale is a truly global figure —the foundational and inspirational figure for nursing and health systems worldwide. This is an enormous opportunity for the UK. We should be using this bicentenary not just to celebrate nursing and other great nurses such as Mary Seacole, but as an opportunity to promote the contribution the UK makes to health globally. This is a great post-Brexit—I assume it will be post-Brexit—opportunity to promote UK expertise in everything in health, from academia to commerce. The World Health Organization is debating her bicentenary today, and will be making a major announcement about what it intends to do. The UK needs to do the same.
Does the Minister agree that this is a tremendous opportunity for the UK that we must grasp? Will the Government join the WHO, Nursing Now and others to promote nursing and support plans to develop young nurses worldwide?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that this is a very good opportunity to support nursing both in this country and abroad. I pay tribute to those in the nursing profession; those of us who have had care from nurses will understand what I mean.
As I said, the NHS is celebrating the year of the nurse in 2020 and will be organising a number of activities, culminating in an international conference organised by the Florence Nightingale Foundation in October 2020. As far as Nursing Now abroad is concerned, I know the noble Lord is meeting the DfID Minister on 5 February to ask for more practical support. I can confirm that we support the aims of the Nursing Now campaign and its promoting the importance of health workers to achieve the goal of universal health coverage.
Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen (Con)
My Lords, Florence Nightingale was ahead of her time in realising the importance of data and statistics—in her day I think it was called information and relevant points. Does the Minister realise that today is Data Privacy Day, and that my Private Member’s Bill, the Health and Social Care (National Data Guardian) Bill, has received Royal Assent? Does he agree that this is a very good sign for the health service going forward?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
My Lords, as the DCMS Minister, I am aware of course that it is Data Privacy Day. Council of Europe Convention 108 is the only binding international instrument which is signed by 54 states, including Russia. Data Privacy Day celebrates the anniversary of its signing in 1981 and I agree with my noble friend that it is an important day. She is right that Florence Nightingale was an important statistician, and she was the first female member of the Royal Statistical Society in 1858. The national data guardian legislation that my noble friend took through the House as a Private Member’s Bill is excellent because it promotes trust in health data so that we can gain the maximum benefit from it.
The Lord Bishop of London
My Lords, as the noble Baroness rightly said, Florence Nightingale not only cared for the sick and wounded but was a statistician, thus providing the foundation of our infection control today. Does the Minister agree that the best tribute to Florence Nightingale is to ensure that nurses today have enough time and resources to continue their own professional development, which contributes not just to the National Health Service but to the health and economic status of this country?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I completely agree with the right reverend Prelate: we want more nurses and we want to encourage nurses to join the profession and, importantly, to stay in it. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State has recently launched his long-term plan, which addresses in part the problem of the lack of nurses.
Lord Griffiths of Burry Port
My Lords, I would not have wanted to give way to any Bishop other than the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London, who has extensive experience of her own in this very field. We have noted the body of people who will be organising the celebration—quite properly—and we look forward to those celebrations, but they have insisted that if we are to honour nursing properly, we should be looking forward rather than back. Some 40,000 health service nursing vacancies need to be filled. Might something as simple as reinstating bursaries for nurses become government policy? Others have thought about it; I am sure that the Minister will want to say something positive about it, too.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
Of course, that is not directly relevant to the DCMS, but I am aware that it is an issue. That is why the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, who was previously Secretary of State at the DCMS, established a DHSC-led nurse supply board to drive progress with health bodies on a range of measures, including a national recruitment campaign, action to encourage nurses who have left the NHS to return to practice, and a programme to encourage nurse retention and to look at situations where suitable nurses might be turned away by disproportionate language controls. We are addressing the issue. The one thing on which I think we all agree is the tremendous benefit that the nursing profession brings to us and countries abroad.
Electronic Communications and Wireless Telegraphy (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
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Lord Ashton of Hyde
That the Grand Committee do consider the Electronic Communications and Wireless Telegraphy (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)
My Lords, digital infrastructure is central to the future of the UK economy. People now rely on being connected through calls and online services more than ever, whether at home or on the move, while communications networks underpin critical areas of the economy. This dependence will only grow with the deployment of new technologies such as 5G and full fibre, which will support innovative new services across manufacturing, logistics, agriculture and healthcare.
The current regulatory framework has created the right conditions for the improvement of connectivity in the UK. It has brought about regulatory certainty and long-term stability for the sector, creating a balance between robust competition, protection for consumers and innovation. However, that framework derives from an EU regulatory framework consisting principally of a number of directives which have been implemented in domestic law.
The UK’s withdrawal from the EU gives rise to deficiencies in that legislation if we leave the EU without an agreement in place. These regulations address those deficiencies and so provide clarity and certainty for communications providers and for the regulator, Ofcom. That is why this statutory instrument is before the Committee today.
I should make it clear at the outset that this SI is concerned with the core of the regulatory framework, in particular the Communications Act 2003. Other matters of relevance to the sector, such as legislation on cross-border data flows, mobile roaming and spectrum decisions, are addressed by separate instruments.
It is also important to observe that the EU framework has already been implemented in domestic law. We are not concerned here with incorporating swathes of EU legislation into UK law, but with making corrections to ensure that the law continues to function appropriately. Furthermore, the scale of those corrections is limited. While the EU framework aims to establish a harmonised telecoms market, that market is policed by national regulatory authorities in each member state, with the European Commission having only a supervisory role.
This SI is intended to ensure that Ofcom can continue to carry out its existing functions effectively. It does not transfer a plethora of new functions to Ofcom or the Secretary of State.
The Government published a technical notice on 13 September 2018 which set out that,
“irrespective of the outcome of the negotiations between the UK and the EU, we do not expect there to be significant impacts on how businesses operate under the telecoms regulatory framework and how consumers of telecoms services are protected”.
This SI is an important part of ensuring that continuity and certainty.
The domestic telecoms framework establishes key regulatory principles such as: the promotion of competition between operators; the protection of consumers of telecoms services; the efficient use of radio spectrum, and the independence of the regulator and its functions. As I have said, these rules derive from a set of EU directives and regulations which have already been implemented in UK law, predominantly in the Communications Act 2003 and in the Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006.
I have said that this instrument makes mainly minor and technical amendments to ensure the continuation of the regulatory framework. An example of such an amendment is the removal of a duty on Ofcom to ensure that its activities contribute to the development of the European internal market, set out in the Communications Act 2003.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
May I continue, if the noble Lord does not mind? My speech is a tightly woven whole, and it might answer some of the questions he is coming to. Later, I will of course answer as many questions as I can.
I will concentrate in the remainder of this speech on those corrections which I expect to be of the most interest to noble Lords. I turn first to the existing requirements on Ofcom to notify, consult or provide information to the European Commission and to other EU bodies.
Ofcom is required to consult with the Commission, the Body of European Regulators for Electronic Communications—BEREC—and the national regulatory authorities of other member states before imposing certain types of regulatory measures. In the case of certain proposed remedies, if the Commission expresses reservations, there is a “standstill” period during which Ofcom must co-operate with the Commission and BEREC. In certain other cases, the Commission can veto the proposed measures.
The Commission’s role is to ensure compliance with the EU regulatory framework and a harmonisation of the approach taken by EU regulators, in order to develop the single market. After EU exit, a power for the Commission and BEREC to scrutinise Ofcom’s decisions in this way will no longer be appropriate, and so this instrument removes these requirements.
Ofcom will continue to need to comply with procedural statutory requirements, including consultation, before it takes regulatory decisions. Once taken, those decisions remain subject to the same scrutiny as today—in particular, the right for affected parties to appeal to the Competition Appeal Tribunal.
EU law also requires Ofcom to provide information to EU bodies. Again, the information requested by EU bodies is generally provided to enable the European Commission to monitor compliance with the European framework or to ensure the harmonisation of measures across the EU. This will not be required when the UK is no longer part of the EU. However, sharing information with the Commission, EU bodies or other regulators in the EU may remain beneficial to the UK after exit—it can help foster co-operation on regulatory matters. That is why this instrument makes amendments which clarify that Ofcom may notify or share information where it considers it appropriate—for example, regarding network security breaches.
Other amendments have been made to ensure the retention of protections for consumers and to enable the regulatory framework to develop in a way that will bring about consistency for industry. In relation to consumer protection, Ofcom has put in place various rules to protect consumers of telecoms services, some of which implement specific requirements of EU law. This instrument makes provision to ensure that Ofcom is able to maintain consumer protection measures which are currently required under the relevant EU directive.
Turning now to corrections that will bring about consistency for industry, Ofcom has existing powers to regulate communications providers with “significant market power”, or SMP. SMP regulation is based on competition law principles, as set out in EU competition law, and enables Ofcom to impose regulatory remedies on providers with SMP to address competition issues in a particular market. This instrument amends the Communications Act 2003 to ensure that, after exit, references to dominance in a market are to be construed consistently with the concept of market dominance in the Competition Act 1998 rather than EU competition law.
This approach ensures that there is a single concept of market dominance across UK competition law post exit. It ensures consistency with the amendments to the Competition Act 1998 which this House approved on 4 December. In other respects, Ofcom’s powers to identify dominant players in the market and to make remedies will remain the same as pre-exit.
Telecoms legislation also includes certain directly applicable EU regulations, which require correction. This instrument revokes the regulations that provide for financial assistance from the EU’s Connecting Europe Facility to support telecoms, including funding to install wi-fi equipment in public spaces. This recognises that this legislation concerns EU funding mechanisms that cannot be retained simply by converting them into domestic law.
In the event of a no-deal exit, UK organisations will no longer be eligible for such funding. However, even if the EU stops making payments to UK organisations delivering CEF-funded projects after exit, the government guarantee will support UK organisations to meet their obligations—including continued project delivery—until completion. The HMG guarantee will also cover successful applications submitted to the EU before exit day but where the award was made after exit.
This instrument also makes corrections to the eCall legislation so that it continues to operate effectively after exit. eCall is an initiative established by the European Commission as part of the intelligent transport system project. It enables a mobile transmission to be sent to emergency services by a vehicle when it is involved in an accident. The eCall legislation refers in parts to technical standards. This instrument confers a legislative power on the Secretary of State to make provision to replace the standards listed. This will enable the standards to be updated, should this be necessary, to ensure continued public safety and effective operation of the eCall technology.
Finally, this statutory instrument revokes the 2009 EU regulation establishing BEREC, the body of national regulators from EU member states. Ofcom is currently a member. The main purpose of BEREC is to ensure the consistent implementation of the EU regulatory framework. BEREC’s membership is therefore limited to the regulators of EU member states. Ofcom will not be a member after exit, but as the UK will no longer be part of the EU regulatory framework, this will not have significant effects on regulation in the UK.
However, the Government and Ofcom agree that it may well be beneficial to have a continued exchange of regulatory best practice with other regulators and an exchange of information about telecoms matters more generally. The new BEREC regulation provides that BEREC participation should be open to third countries where appropriate agreements are in place. Ofcom intends to seek observer status after the UK has exited the EU, in the way that other regulators of states in the European Economic Area and EU candidate countries currently participate.
We are committed to ensuring that the regulation of telecoms markets continues to function appropriately after exit, providing regulatory certainty and the right conditions for continued investment and development. I commend these regulations to the House.
Lord Adonis
Before the Minister sits down, he said that he would come to my points later but he did not—although I accept that his speech was carefully woven and made a coherent case for the regulations. However, for the purposes of the Grand Committee, by far the most important issues in the Explanatory Memorandum are raised in paragraphs 10.2 and 10.3. These show that there were quite significant differences between the Government and some consultees on the shaping of the regulations and, in particular, whether there should be continuing obligations for consultation and reference in respect of decisions made by Ofcom as regulator, replicating the current powers and role of the European Commission. These look to be significant issues and the Minister did not mention them at all in his remarks. It seems to me to be important for the Grand Committee to understand what the consultation was, why the Government decided not to go with the view that there should be a regime that replicates that of the European Commission and why the Minister believes that we should go with the Government’s view rather than that of the consultees, who, I should say, are not named in paragraphs 10.2 and 10.3 so it is very hard for us to know who they are. Is this a matter on which we should seek further information and debate before we agree this regulation?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I am very happy to answer that; it is a reasonable question. The Government undertook extensive consultation with the telecoms industry, the regulator and other interested groups such as consumer associations. I shall start with the telecoms industry and come to why we should accept what was said.
The Broadband Stakeholder Group assisted us in organising our consultation, which has continued from summer 2017 until now, so it was over a long period, and it counts all the major providers of telecoms and broadband services in its membership: Arqiva, BT, Cisco, CityFibre, EE, Ericsson, Gigaclear, Openreach, Sky, TalkTalk, 3, Virgin Media, Vodafone and Wireless Infrastructure Group, and also from the sector were included Tech UK, INCA, which is the body representing UK alternative smaller telecoms infrastructure providers, consultancies, law firms, the BBC, Avanti, a satellite company, and the Federation of Communication Services. They were all consulted, and, as the noble Lord said, the main area of interest concerned EU consultation. This was discussed from summer 2017 until October 2018.
The main difference is that the function of EU supervision is really to promote the harmonisation of the EU single market. Obviously, that is not appropriate if indeed we leave the EU. The appeals process to the decision that Ofcom will make continues, so the appeals tribunal will still exist and operate in exactly the same way, and so will the administrative court, which enables the telecoms industry to go to judicial review.
In fact, the European Commission has never once vetoed an Ofcom decision, so we do not think it is of huge significance but, as I said, the main reason for not replicating that is that it affects European harmonisation rather than the national regulatory system.
Lord Adonis
I am very grateful to the Minister, but will he confirm that many members of the stakeholder group disagreed with the line that the Government are taking, which is not to have a continued consultation role with the European Commission? That is an important issue which is not properly brought out in these papers. The reason they did, which I take to be implicit in paragraph 10.2, is that they do not think that Ofcom should have unfettered power to act without consulting appropriate parallel competition regulatory authorities. Specifically mentioned in paragraph 10.2 is the Competition and Markets Authority, but I take it that the European Commission is seen to be a parallel body from that point of view. Will he expand further?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
Yes, the body they would appeal to is part of the Competition and Markets Authority; it obviously has a completely different dynamic to the European Commission, which is there to harmonise the single market. It is true that they expressed those views, and it is probably fair to say that the sector would like as many avenues for appeal as possible—it is regarded as a reasonably litigious sector—but it was felt that because that was for harmonisation, it was not appropriate.
I can say that the industry, including that part of the stakeholder group referred to, is keen that the SI should be taken forward, because it wants clarity and a consistent regulatory framework. To that extent, it is happening.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)
The Question is—
The Deputy Chairman of Committees
It might be helpful if I put the initial Question, which is that the Grand Committee do consider the draft Electronic Communications and Wireless Telegraphy (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, I am informed that I can publish them.
Lord Foster of Bath (LD)
My Lords, following that interesting exchange, I pick up where the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, began, by pointing to what he described as the Minster’s “carefully woven” speech. I confess that I do not quite agree with that definition, as the speech appeared to be a cut-and-paste version of the speech that was given by the Minister in the other place, Margot James, on 7 January. Having gone through that speech, I noticed that odd words were missed out in the noble Lord’s version. In the other place, the Minister thought that there may well be a case for Ofcom remaining involved in BEREC—the word “well” was missing in the noble Lord’s version.
More important, we should recognise that over the last 30 years the industry that we are dealing with, including within it the telecoms industry, has developed from a monopoly situation to a highly competitive market, with annual revenues now in excess of £40 billion. It therefore forms an important part of our economy. Because of the way in which the industry is intrinsically linked to the European Union, there is no doubt in my mind that Brexit will have a significant impact on it, not least because a number of UK providers operate in other member states but have headquarters in the UK. I also believe that Brexit will have a significant impact on the regulatory regime under which those providers operate.
The Minister said, as indeed did Margot James in the other place, that the draft regulations will provide “clarity and certainty” both for the operators and for the regulator. I am somewhat inclined to disagree with that view. Indeed, the technical notice to which the Minister referred, which was issued way back on 13 September last year, explained that, irrespective of the outcome of the negotiations between the UK and the EU, the regulations would not have a significant impact on how businesses operate under the telecoms regulatory framework or on how consumers of telecoms services are protected within the UK. That claim is highly questionable.
Before I turn to those impacts, I want to seek clarification on consultation, the issue that has occupied a few minutes between the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, and the Minister. In the other place, the Minister for Digital and the Creative Industries, Margot James, said:
“All the changes that the draft regulations will make have been considered on a case-by-case basis and discussed with the regulator and stakeholders where possible”.—[Official Report, Commons, First Delegated Legislation Committee, 7/1/19; cols. 3-4.]
One has to assume that she believes that, as the noble Lord said only a few minutes ago, extensive consultation has taken place. The noble Lord told us about consultation with the Broadband Stakeholder Group and listed its membership. Interestingly, he did not mention the other part of the equation, which relates to the telecoms industry. There is a major body—the UK Competitive Telecommunications Association, or UKCTA—which represents very many of the key stakeholders in that field: Virgin Media, Vodafone, AT&T, the Post Office, Sky, TalkTalk; I could go on. If extensive consultation has taken place, one would assume that that key body, UKCTA, has been involved in the discussions. Yet I have received a note from UKCTA—I would be grateful if the Minister could explain whether this is correct—which says:
“UKCTA has not had any advance notice of, or discussions about, the SI despite regular meetings with DCMS, the most recent being on Monday 14th January”.
Can the Minister explain whether what I am told is incorrect, and if it is correct, can he explain why, despite the Government having claimed that there has been extensive consultation, this important body in the industry and the sector has not been consulted? On the impacts of these draft regulations, which the Government say they do not expect to be significantly—
Lord Adonis
Does the Minister want to respond to the noble Lord, Lord Foster, before I and my noble friend speak?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I do not think that I can stop the noble Lord speaking whenever he wants.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
The noble Lord asked a lot of questions. Underlying it all is the fact that this SI is there in the event of no deal. Of course, it is not surprising that references to and some of the effects of being in the EU are going to change. The essential point of the SI is that telecoms regulation is performed by national regulatory authorities with EU supervision. The issue is whether the supervision element is significant. The whole point of the SI is to make the regulatory system the same after we leave. The noble Lord made a lot of mileage out of whether we would remain a member of BEREC—
Lord Foster of Bath
The issue is not about the regulatory regime staying the same but about who is regulating the regulator. I hope that the Minister will come on to that.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
Yes, absolutely. I will come on to that because nobody regulates the regulator today.
The noble Lord asked me to go beyond no deal to what happens to our membership of BEREC if we have a negotiated deal with an implementation period. During that period, the UK will no longer be a member state of the EU but, as is set out in the terms of the withdrawal agreement, common rules will remain in place. That is why we expect Ofcom to continue to participate in BEREC in line with the terms of the agreement, in the way that the noble Lord, Lord Foster, mentioned.
I point out to noble Lords that there is every reason to suppose that the EU would want that, because Ofcom is one of the leading telecoms regulators in Europe—if not the leading one. The interchange between Ofcom and other European regulators has been extremely beneficial, not only for them but for this country. There is every reason to think that they would wish to continue that—
Lord Foster of Bath
I am sorry. The noble Lord is entitled to assert whatever he likes, but I specifically read out a section from the withdrawal agreement, which says, and I repeat, that the UK has no right to participate in decision-making or governance in any EU body of any type and no right to attend meetings. I have given the two caveats: the first relates to any discussion that,
“concerns individual acts addressed to the UK”,
or persons residing or established in the UK; and the second is that the presence of the United Kingdom is,
“necessary and in the interests of the Union”.
It is all very well for the Minister to say that he hopes that it will be perfectly all right and that the EU will have us for other things, but a specific clause in the withdrawal agreement says the opposite.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I was going to read out that exact clause to make my point. If it is,
“in the interests of the Union”,
or where the discussion concerns acts addressed to the UK and its citizens, it provides that the UK will continue to participate in EU agencies and bodies. I think that those two things apply and, as I was saying, the reason why I think that is the mutual benefit Ofcom has. It is a world-leading, well-respected regulator. However, I accept that it does not have the right to do these things. That is not surprising, because we are leaving the EU. Why should it have the right? I think that we have come to stalemate on that point.
The noble Lord mentioned the fact that BEREC rules have changed and that it is not just a question of having been invited to be an observer. He is absolutely right: either there has to be an agreement with the EU as part of a future economic partnership or a bilateral agreement can facilitate it. Under that facility, which the EU has deliberately put in the new BEREC regulations, Ofcom can—under a bilateral agreement—be a member of the board of regulators, the working groups and the management board.
I will move on to data adequacy later. The important issue that both noble Lords mentioned is, crudely put, whether the regulator will still be regulated. The European Commission does not regulate Ofcom. It has a supervisory power, which is principally designed to ensure the consistency of regulatory practices across the EU, in order to contribute to the development of the single market. It is quite understandable that the EU should want to harmonise national regulators to facilitate the single market. Of course, if we leave the EU, that will no longer apply. The role of the European Commission in telecoms regulation is unique and should not be compared to EU scrutiny powers over other UK economic regulators. There is sufficient accountability in the domestic system, because Ofcom decisions can be challenged in the courts—of course, the primary area in which they are challenged is in the statutory appeal before the Competition Appeal Tribunal.
In fact, the withdrawal Act is not a vehicle for policy changes, as I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, will remind us. We think that, under the terms of the Act, recreating a domestic equivalent for the oversight of Ofcom’s decisions will be considered going beyond what is appropriate to correct the deficiency.
Lord Adonis
I am grateful to the Minister, but does he not accept that this could be argued both ways? It is clear from reading the materials available to me that one could say that replicating the status quo means having some consultation and appeal role for a competition body above Ofcom, which is the role currently played by the European Commission, or one could take the Government’s view that there should not be such a role. It appears to me that the reason why this has happened is twofold: first, because the whole government mindset is to have as little Europe as possible—as a matter of prejudice the Government do not want any continued consultation role for the European Commission, even if that might be in the best interests of Ofcom and the robustness of our regime, given how intertwined our companies and industries are—and, secondly, because Ofcom would obviously prefer not to have any oversight. Any regulator in Ofcom’s position would much rather not have somebody else marking its homework. It appears that the Government have been unduly swayed by Ofcom in drawing up these regulations, particularly in the light of the observations from the noble Lord, Lord Foster, that key industry groups have not even been consulted.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I do not think that you can argue it both ways. Of course we will not be involved in the EU supervision, given that the whole point of the supervision is to affect the European single market, of which we will not be a part. To set up a completely new supervisory authority, with a completely different function from what it had before, would, I think, be beyond the powers of the withdrawal Act—it will obviously be different if we are not talking about EU supervision to maintain regulatory harmony.
I come to both noble Lords’ points about the consultation, because I do not believe that they are true. The noble Lord, Lord Foster, made a reference to the UKCTA—its members, by the way, are also members of the BSG—and read out the names of a number of companies that are part of the group which facilitated the round tables. There may be a disagreement with us, as my information is that it was asked to at least one of the round tables. It has met DCMS and has had the opportunity to raise concerns about the SI—as he said, it met DCMS only very recently—and of course our technical notice explains some of the problems and issues about telecoms regulation when we leave the EU, so it is not as though it did not mention it. Therefore, some of that body’s members have sat round the table with DCMS; they have been asked. There is no requirement to send the draft SI to industry, but it had every opportunity to contact DCMS and every opportunity to raise it at the meetings that the noble Lord referred to. We have ongoing and good relations with all parts of the sector, so there is absolutely no reason why, if there is a problem, it could not be raised with DCMS. I do not accept that in this case the consultation has been insufficient. We have had regular and continued consultation with the industry, not only with the telecoms sector but also with consumers and Ofcom itself.
Lord Foster of Bath
I do not think that it is necessary to pursue this; I am merely making a simple request. Given that this body says that it has not been consulted—I entirely accept the Minister’s point that the draft regulations have been published and so it could have read them and perhaps could have come forward and said, “Can we discuss this?”—can the Minister just give the Grand Committee an assurance that it will now be invited to come and have a discussion about its concerns on these draft regulations? Then we can move on.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
It is of course a bit late to consult it on the regulations, but we will definitely do so in future. I will try to find out where we have a disagreement on fact—whether it was able to be consulted—and will let the noble Lord know about that. I appreciate his allowing me to move on.
There is an important issue about data adequacy, which the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, mentioned. He asked whether it would happen in the next eight weeks. Of course, what he does not realise is that it cannot happen in the next eight weeks, because you cannot have data adequacy until you are a third country. You will never get data adequacy until exit day; when that will be is another matter. Data adequacy is an important issue. We have said that there will be no restriction on personal data flowing from the UK to the EU; the issue is entirely about personal data flowing from the EU to the UK. What are we doing about it? We have spent a lot of time talking to member states, explaining our mutual interest in having data adequacy. We should not forget that we start from the exact same position, because we have implemented the GDPR. We are therefore in a good position.
The EU has indicated—it has not said it formally—that it will be ready to discuss data adequacy as soon as exit day comes. We are ready to do that, but in the meantime there is a possibility that there will be a gap between when we leave the EU and whenever we get data adequacy. To cope with that gap there are mitigations and ways round it—standard contractual conditions for contracts, for example. We are ramping up the speed of publication and are making industry aware of this. There will be a significant amount of progress on that over the next few weeks. It is always frustrating when you spend time talking to trade bodies—we are talking to about 50 companies a week at the moment, and we will double that—and, despite all that work, people still say that they were not aware of it. We saw that with the GDPR. However, we have a publicity campaign; work is going on to try to make people aware and, for example, to encourage them visit the ICO website, which gives examples of ways to mitigate in case of a gap.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, the Minister has done a conscientious job of explaining the regulations and dealing with the concerns raised by the noble Lord, Lord Foster. However, I did not greatly care for the intervention at the beginning by the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, which sought to prevent me from posing questions to the Minister. I hugely respect the noble Baroness, but it is important to understand what is going on in this Grand Committee. We are making significant changes to the law. It is true that we are doing so in an emergency situation because we have to agree things in the next eight weeks in case the United Kingdom crashes out of the EU without a deal, but we should not minimise the fact that we are making significant changes to the law. Because of the emergency nature of events, we are doing this by means of statutory instruments, but the fact that these are called statutory instruments does not make the changes to the law less substantial.
The changes to the law involved in this one statutory instrument would, in the normal course of events, require primary legislation, with Second Reading, Committee, Report and Third Reading. We would have ample opportunity to engage with the Minister, move amendments and probe issues around consultation and appeal mechanisms and so on, which we have been debating across the Floor. Because of the constraints of the statutory instrument process, all this is being done by means of one statutory instrument, with one debate in Grand Committee and potentially another in the Chamber.
When we went to the Chamber on the venture capital regulations yesterday, I had expected that the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Bates, would present the regulations to the House in the light of the debate that had taken place in Grand Committee and to reply to that debate. I thought that he would do the same on the interchange regulations; the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, who is in her place, had raised a lot of significant policy issues on those regulations. But things did not happen at all as I had expected. What happened was that the noble Lord, Lord Bates—
Lord Ashton of Hyde
The noble Lord is kind to let me in. I think he is in danger of making a generic speech here. In this SI, we are retaining the status quo in telecoms legislation. We are trying to maintain EU law, which has been implemented in UK law. I accept that there are changes—for example, the European Commission is mentioned in relation to supervision—but obviously those changes will result from our coming out of the EU. I do not accept that, in this case, we are making substantive changes. I suppose that one area that one could argue we are changing is giving the Secretary of State powers to amend regulations so that the eCall system works. That is clearly to everyone’s benefit who drives or travels in a car. That is one area where we are possibly giving the Secretary of State more powers, but I do not accept that there is a whole swathe of legislation that normally would have required to be made through primary legislation.
Lord Adonis
I am grateful to the Minister for that intervention, but I note that the issues raised in paragraphs 10.2 and 10.3 of the Explanatory Memorandum indicate that significant players in the industry do not accept the statements that he has just made. They do not accept that this is the best way of transposing the status quo into a new regime following a no-deal Brexit. On the contrary, as I will explain in a moment, they think that the Competition and Markets Authority should have replicated the existing role of the European Commission, but the Government decided not to do that. I accept that the Minister has said what he said in good faith, but what he said is not the view of a large number of players in the sector.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
The noble Lord is surely not suggesting that every time we have a consultation we should agree on everything with every person who is consulted.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, the problem with this situation is that we do not know what happened in the consultation, because nothing has been published. Let me read out what paragraph 10.1 says, so that it goes on the record. Under the heading “Consultation outcome”, it says:
“Informal consultation has been undertaken with Ofcom, whose views have been taken into consideration in development of the instrument”.
In the case of informal consultation, nothing is published. Indeed, I am anxious to read the letter that Ofcom sent to the noble Lord, Lord Foster, because it will be the only thing that has come out in public saying what Ofcom actually thinks. For the process of making the law, the right course to pursue would have been to have had a formal consultation, with Ofcom’s formal view, but the Government did not do that. At the moment, we are legislating in the dark.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
Ofcom has been consulted all along. It worked with DCMS in drafting the SI. It is keen to retain its independent status. It will not come out and say, “This is a joint DCMS/Ofcom SI”, but it has been consulted all the way along. It was instrumental in the drafting of the SI.
Lord Adonis
I do not for a moment expect that Ofcom should be required to agree. On the contrary, it is the job of the Government and Parliament to decide what the law and the regulations will be. However, it is our responsibility as parliamentarians to be fully informed about what the stakeholders think. Nothing has been published. The consultation with Ofcom has been informal. We have no details of the consultations referred to in paragraph 10.2. The noble Lord, Lord Foster, told us that the UK Competitive Telecommunications Association, which some of us had never heard of before, was not consulted. The Minister says that it was consulted. This issue of what in fact happened is still not resolved across the Grand Committee. The whole situation is unsatisfactory.
To complete the broader point that I was making in respect of the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, I do not think it reasonable to curb the rights of noble Lords to question Ministers on fundamental changes to the law of the kind that are being proposed simply because it is inconvenient to the Government, but that is what the noble Baroness and other Ministers have sought to do.
Lord Adonis
I am very grateful for the noble Baroness’s explanation but I do not believe that I was in any way infringing the courtesies of the House in seeking to question the Minister. The job of a Grand Committee is to elicit from Ministers information which is relevant to our consideration of these matters. However, we do not have the equivalent of a Committee stage in which we can propose amendments and hear explanations from the Government, which can then be questioned, so the only mechanism that we have in Grand Committee is to ask direct questions before the Minister sits down. Therefore, I do not accept for a moment that I was infringing the courtesies, the Standing Orders or the reasonable procedures of the House.
Unfortunately, it has become a pattern in Grand Committee for Whips to seek to curb proper debate and discussion. They are trying to railroad through these significant changes to the law with the minimum debate and the minimum questioning possible. I absolve the Minister from any intent to refrain from giving information, because he has been very forthcoming.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
Perhaps I may help. There is another way in which the noble Lord could find out the information that he requires. He knows well in advance that these SIs are coming up, so he could always write to me and ask.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, I would be delighted to write to the noble Lord when his next lot of SIs are due to come before the Grand Committee and ask him for more information, but until I have heard the explanation and his account, it is often difficult to know what questions one wants to ask. I should observe that at the moment we are having these statutory instruments at the rate of about 20 to 30 a week, so, although I take my duties as a Member of the House very seriously, it would not be possible for me to correspond with Ministers in advance of each of them in a way that would be productive, given that we are going to debate them in any event.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
The noble Lord would be able to spend less time in Grand Committee, so he would have some more spare time.
Lord Adonis
I am not sure whether the noble Lord meant that as a serious contribution to the debate. I cannot think of anything that I would find more felicitous than engaging in correspondence with the Minister, so I would be happy to do that hereafter.
I sense that we will return to the issues raised in paragraphs 10.2 and 10.3 of the Explanatory Memorandum when the regulations go to the Chamber. The Minister has already undertaken to publish the relevant minutes of the Broadband Stakeholder Group and it is important that we have an opportunity to take account of those before these regulations go to the House. If the Minister does not mind my saying so, we will need to have resolved what consultations have taken place with the UK competitor telecoms authority and its members, and having that information before the House would be useful too. That is important to enable the House to make a judgment on the issues raised in paragraphs 10.2 and 10.3. Perhaps I may read to the Grand Committee what is said there:
“Some stakeholders expressed concerns that removal of the requirement for EU consultation on certain Ofcom proposed regulatory measures (and in particular the Commission’s ability to require Ofcom to withdraw its proposed measure in some circumstances) … amounted to loss of a valuable check on Ofcom’s decision-making. Those stakeholders proposed that an equivalent function be recreated domestically (for example, requiring the Competition and Markets Authority to approve certain of Ofcom’s proposed measures”.
The Minister has just said that doing that would involve a change in the status quo. However, the contention of stakeholders in the sector is that, far from constituting a change in the status quo, it would transpose an equivalent function to the one currently performed by the European Commission once we leave the European Union. To me, the issue set out in paragraph 10.2 is significant, and the noble Lord, Lord Foster, who is much more knowledgeable about the sector than I am, made the concern of the sector a significant part of his remarks.
I entirely agree with the Minister that the Government should not be expected to give a veto to telecoms companies and other stakeholders which is in any way unreasonable. I accept that; as a former telecoms correspondent for the Financial Times, I am only too aware of the market power of those bodies, and it is important to have strong regulators. I am not saying that those telecoms companies and interest groups are necessarily right—the Government might be right not to give further supervisory powers to the Competition and Markets Authority that would lead to further appeals, litigation and huge expense to the public—but my concern, which goes to the whole procedure of dealing with these no-deal regulations, is that this is an important issue. I think that the Minister would accept that it is a pretty significant issue in terms of the construction of the regulatory regime. This decision has been taken on the basis of no formal consultation, and the views of stakeholders have become apparent to your Lordships only during this debate and were brought up particularly by the noble Lord, Lord Foster.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
That is not right. That is why the Explanatory Memorandum specifically mentioned their views. It is not that the noble Lord has found them at the last minute, because he was citing the very Explanatory Memorandum that told him that there were opposite views, which we disregarded for reasons with which I think he agrees.
Lord Adonis
Let me correct myself. The Minister is quite right that the Explanatory Memorandum mentions that at paragraph 10.2. However, all it says is “some stakeholders”, so there is no explanation of who those stakeholders were. The noble Lord, Lord Foster, brought out who they were and why they hold those views. For our next consideration of this measure, we need to know more about which stakeholders expressed the views in paragraph 10.2 and why they did so, so that we can form a view as to whether the Government’s judgment, which is that there should be no role for the Competition and Markets Authority, is correct or whether the right approach would have been to have given some supervisory role to the CMA, as is envisaged by the stakeholders in paragraph 10.2.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
This may help the noble Lord and cut down on the time. I have been told that we will continue to consult the industry on the scrutiny of Ofcom’s draft regulatory decisions, but we do not believe that this SI is the vehicle for such policy changes—because that is what they are. I committed to the noble Lord, Lord Foster, that I would outline the people whom we had consulted. I take his point about a formal consultation; we decided not to do that, but that is not to say that there has not been extensive consultation, which I have agreed to make clear. I hope that the noble Lord will accept that we will continue to consult on that, but will not do it through this SI.
Lord Adonis
I fully accept what the Minister said. He has been very forthcoming in making further information available to noble Lords. It would be very useful to us to have that further information before these regulations go to the House. We need that further information so that we can form a judgment on whether the Government’s decision as to how they will frame the regulatory regime after 29 March, if we crash out of the EU, is correct or whether it would have been appropriate to have in domestic arrangements some function equivalent to that performed by the European Commission; for example, by requiring the CMA to approve certain of Ofcom’s proposed regulatory measures. I hope that the Minister will be able to make that information available to the House so that we can form a judgment when this regulation comes to the House.
Lord Griffiths of Burry Port
We will have to have a consultation about that in order to find out who forms which view about Dante’s Inferno.
There are two focal points to my remarks. I wanted to ask about the data adequacy agreement but the Minister has answered that. I also wanted to ask: who regulates the regulator? I was very interested indeed to read about Ofcom. While I in no way have the level of expertise of other noble Lords who have spoken, just reading the text—I know how to do that—what hit me between the eyes begged questions: is this regulation or supervision? Are we talking about harmonisation? I have sat in on several debates to try to gauge what is happening in consideration of these statutory instruments and I am beginning to form the view that between where we are now and where we expect to be if all goes according to plan, in several instances there will be a lessening of the oversight and direction that we have currently through our membership of the European Union.
For example, I listened to the debate on nuclear safeguarding yesterday. I was not convinced by either the debate or the material I read that the concerns being expressed would be adequately met. It was a similar case as regards non-native invasive species. Again, I was left with questions which may be answerable: I am not an expert in these fields. However, simply because we are under pressure to agree to these statutory instruments, we must not go on driving them through in such a way that in the end the accumulation of feeling about what we are achieving is that we are making too much haste and should have a bit less speed. I know that there are just 70-something days and the pressures that we are under, but in the end we will have to live with what we decide now.
All of those Acts of Parliament were carefully gone through. I have just one brief observation to make about Ofcom because the others have been made. Most of my consideration was on paragraph 10, but I will not cover that at all. However, in paragraph 7, I find that again and again what Ofcom is required to do while we are a member of the European Union “may” turn into something later. The indicative mood turns into—what? Is it the optative or is it the subjunctive? The word “may” allows itself to be interpreted either way. The optative reflects the mood of wishful thinking while the subjunctive reflects the mood of doubtful assertion. I am truly interested in knowing whether Ofcom’s different field of endeavour and focal points amount to it having the same quality and weight of oversight that it currently enjoys and whether the subjective element which is being introduced by the verbs I have described allow for a different way for it to operate or a different mood to be generated. I do not know, because the words do not allow me to make a deduction and I have certainly not heard this mentioned or dealt with in our discussion thus far.
I said that I would not detain noble Lords for long and I shall not. I am normally an optimistic person and I end my short interventions by saying that I look forward to the next one. However, I sit down on this occasion in a more desultory manner, not sure that I do.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I am sorry that the noble Lord is not looking forward to my reply—he would not be the only one. Let me answer some of his points.
He asked how many hours have been put into the production of the SI. I cannot tell him exactly, but we have been working on it for about 18 months to allow for the engagement of stakeholders and other government departments and the appropriate legal checks. The consultation might not be to everyone’s liking in the sense that it was not formal, but it was real and I shall share some more information with the Committee about who turned up. It was real and, for the reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, gave, we may be vindicated in our decision not to include another regulator on top of Ofcom. I think I have covered that.
When the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, talks about whether it is regulation or supervision and a lessening in oversight, the point to bear in mind is that telecoms have always been regulated by national regulators. The EU Commission has a very particular role in this connected with EU matters—namely, the single market. It is obvious that if we are no longer in the EU and the single market, not only will that supervisory function not be performed by the EU because we will not be in it but there will not be a harmonisation problem.
Lord Foster of Bath
I said that I would not intervene but I am intervening. The Minister is well aware that the financial consequences of telecoms companies, for example, in the UK, which do not abide by regulations imposed by the European Union will be significant. Even following Brexit, there will be huge impacts, one upon another. Therefore, to suggest that Ofcom does not have to have regard to that is just wrong.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I may have missed the noble Lord’s point. The regulatory framework set up through EU directives and regulations has been implemented in UK law and is administered and regulated by the UK. It will change, so in certain cases we have provided that Ofcom, the regulator, will bear in mind the current status of EU directives but in future will have the liberty to move away from them, which is only to be expected because we will not be in the EU. Therefore, we have taken account of EU law as we are trying to maintain the existing regulatory framework, although I accept that in future we might move away from it. The noble Lord, Lord Foster, says that it is changing. It is, and the basis of this SI is that we are leaving the EU, so there is change.
The noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, asked about paragraph 7 of the Explanatory Memorandum: why Ofcom may exchange information with the EU Commission or BEREC. The reason is that it will be given the option to do so if it is in the best interests of this country. It would be perverse to deny it the option to do that, so we are giving it that power. Both noble Lords rightly made the point that it will not, ex officio, be a member of BEREC. We expect it to be either an observer or a member of the various groups that I mentioned, and we hope that it will be. Whether it is or is not, we think it would often be in the regulatory interests of this country to exchange information. I think it is extremely likely that it would do so and I am sure that regulatory information will flow the other way. It is the subjunctive, I feel, in answer to the noble Lord’s question.
I am grateful for the consideration of the instrument and expect a very brief further discussion—consultation, possibly—later; I have made commitments on that. We think that the amendments contained in the SI are essential to ensure legal clarity, to reduce litigation risk and to protect consumers. Beyond that, we have agreed on the necessity for the regime to exist to correct deficiencies in retained EU law. On that basis, I hope that noble Lords will be able to approve the consideration of the regulation.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)
The Question is that the Motion be agreed to. As many as are of that opinion will say “Content”; to the contrary “Not-content”.