Electronic Communications and Wireless Telegraphy (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Lord Foster of Bath Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd January 2019 Grand Committee

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, I am informed that I can publish them.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, following that interesting exchange, I pick up where the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, began, by pointing to what he described as the Minster’s “carefully woven” speech. I confess that I do not quite agree with that definition, as the speech appeared to be a cut-and-paste version of the speech that was given by the Minister in the other place, Margot James, on 7 January. Having gone through that speech, I noticed that odd words were missed out in the noble Lord’s version. In the other place, the Minister thought that there may well be a case for Ofcom remaining involved in BEREC—the word “well” was missing in the noble Lord’s version.

More important, we should recognise that over the last 30 years the industry that we are dealing with, including within it the telecoms industry, has developed from a monopoly situation to a highly competitive market, with annual revenues now in excess of £40 billion. It therefore forms an important part of our economy. Because of the way in which the industry is intrinsically linked to the European Union, there is no doubt in my mind that Brexit will have a significant impact on it, not least because a number of UK providers operate in other member states but have headquarters in the UK. I also believe that Brexit will have a significant impact on the regulatory regime under which those providers operate.

The Minister said, as indeed did Margot James in the other place, that the draft regulations will provide “clarity and certainty” both for the operators and for the regulator. I am somewhat inclined to disagree with that view. Indeed, the technical notice to which the Minister referred, which was issued way back on 13 September last year, explained that, irrespective of the outcome of the negotiations between the UK and the EU, the regulations would not have a significant impact on how businesses operate under the telecoms regulatory framework or on how consumers of telecoms services are protected within the UK. That claim is highly questionable.

Before I turn to those impacts, I want to seek clarification on consultation, the issue that has occupied a few minutes between the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, and the Minister. In the other place, the Minister for Digital and the Creative Industries, Margot James, said:

“All the changes that the draft regulations will make have been considered on a case-by-case basis and discussed with the regulator and stakeholders where possible”.—[Official Report, Commons, First Delegated Legislation Committee, 7/1/19; cols. 3-4.]


One has to assume that she believes that, as the noble Lord said only a few minutes ago, extensive consultation has taken place. The noble Lord told us about consultation with the Broadband Stakeholder Group and listed its membership. Interestingly, he did not mention the other part of the equation, which relates to the telecoms industry. There is a major body—the UK Competitive Telecommunications Association, or UKCTA—which represents very many of the key stakeholders in that field: Virgin Media, Vodafone, AT&T, the Post Office, Sky, TalkTalk; I could go on. If extensive consultation has taken place, one would assume that that key body, UKCTA, has been involved in the discussions. Yet I have received a note from UKCTA—I would be grateful if the Minister could explain whether this is correct—which says:

“UKCTA has not had any advance notice of, or discussions about, the SI despite regular meetings with DCMS, the most recent being on Monday 14th January”.


Can the Minister explain whether what I am told is incorrect, and if it is correct, can he explain why, despite the Government having claimed that there has been extensive consultation, this important body in the industry and the sector has not been consulted? On the impacts of these draft regulations, which the Government say they do not expect to be significantly—

[Lord Adonis]

The noble Lord has just raised an extremely important point about consultation. As he knows, in the discussions which the Grand Committee has been having on these no-deal regulations, the issue of inadequate consultation has been a running theme. As we probe beneath the regulations, significant issues of substance come to the fore when the Government tell us that the changes that are being made are technical. In fact, the actual change brought about by this regulation is substantial, because it entirely removes the European Commission from the whole process of deciding on competition issues.

The noble Lord is much closer to this sector than I am, and he has clearly had contact with the UK Competitive Telecommunications Association—I have to confess that I was not even aware of the existence of that body until he mentioned it, which is a huge lacuna in my understanding of public affairs. The noble Lord told us that it had not been consulted but that he has been speaking to it. Can he tell the Grand Committee what its view is of these regulations? Clearly, that is a material point, but it will also be a material point when the House itself comes to consider these regulations, also in the light of the further consultation responses which the Minister has kindly agreed to publish after the meeting of the Grand Committee.

[Lord Foster of Bath]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his intervention. I assure him that I am more than happy to help to resolve the lacuna he has, and I will go even further and share with him a few thoughts that that association has about the draft regulations before us. I will take one particular one, which is its reaction, and the reactions of many other people, to the Government’s claim that the changes envisaged in these draft regulations will not significantly change the protections that are currently enjoyed by consumers of UK telecoms services. That claim is disputed, and I am keen to hear the Minister’s reaction to that, particularly in relation to the fundamental question of who will now supervise the regulator.

The UK regulator is Ofcom, which is probably the most highly regarded regulator throughout the whole of the European Union. It is a regulator in which most of us have great confidence, but from time to time it can make questionable decisions. Within the EU arrangements there are processes which provide for oversight of decisions of all national regulatory authorities, including Ofcom. These processes are covered under Regulation 7, particularly 7(1). As the Minister knows, they ensure oversight of a regulator’s decision by the Commission, and peer review by other EU regulators—in this case by members of BEREC, which the Minister has already referred to: the Body of European Regulators for Electronic Communications.

Post Brexit, the EU checks and balances against bad regulatory decisions will clearly fall away, yet safeguards to ensure regulatory certainty, and safeguards against bad regulatory decisions, are critical to ensuring that businesses in this sector can have the confidence to make major investments. Can the Minister provide a clear explanation of how, under these draft regulations, Ofcom will be held to account post Brexit? Can he confirm that, for instance, the Digital Economy Act, which went through your Lordships’ House some while ago, has weakened the telecoms appeal regime and that all that appears to be left for those who believe that an Ofcom decision is wrong is the judicial review process? As the Minister said, in certain cases there might also be the opportunity to go to the Competition Appeal Tribunal, but in the majority of cases it would appear that we are left with only judicial review, which, as noble Lords know, has undergone some quite significant and worrying changes in recent times. Therefore, does the Minister agree that this is a significant diminution of the protections against bad decisions by the regulator, however infrequently they are likely to occur?

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[Lord Adonis]

My Lords, the noble Lord is making a very powerful argument about the weakness of consultation and the problems that will be caused by these regulations. Is he suggesting that Ofcom itself said to him that it was not content with these regulations in their current form and that it is worried about the regime that will apply after a no-deal Brexit? That would be a very serious state of affairs if that were the case.

[Lord Foster of Bath]

That would be taking the interpretation of the conversations and correspondence I have had with Ofcom a step too far. I do not think that Ofcom feels that it is its place to comment on the rightness or otherwise of the regulations. However, it is pointing out very clearly that when these regulations come into force, its ability to do the work to the level that it wishes will undoubtedly be diminished because of its inability to influence future EU legislation which will have a significant bearing on companies that operate in this country. Equally—I shall come on to this in a second—its ability to engage in discussion and debate with fellow regulators in this field across the 27 EU countries will depend on what happens now.

I hope that the Minister will agree to extend his remit just a little in this discussion. It would be enormously helpful to hear from him what he understands the situation will be not only in relation to a no-deal Brexit but, if the Prime Minister is successful in achieving her deal, what it will be during the implementation period and then after it. So there are three possible scenarios in which it would be helpful to learn from the Minister how he thinks the arrangements will operate.

It might help him if I shared with him my own understanding of what the situation is likely to be and possibly made his response much briefer, because he could then say that I have got it right. In the debate on 7 January in the other place, Margot James acknowledged that,

“the Government recognise that Ofcom would benefit from the continued exchange of best practice with other regulators, and from the exchange of information about telecoms matters more generally”.

She went on to say:

“Ofcom intends to seek observer status after the UK has exited the EU”.—[Official Report, Commons, Delegated Legislation Committee, 7/1/19; col. 6.]


Can the Minister confirm that this is a huge oversimplification of the process that now applies in the event of a no-deal Brexit? In the past, it would have been a relatively simple matter for Ofcom to seek observer status. Under the rules that applied until December 2018, just a month ago, BEREC could simply have invited Ofcom to have observer status and that would have been fine, but the BEREC regulations have changed and are now very different. I am sure that the Minister will confirm that, under those regulations, the only possibility of Ofcom having even observer status on BEREC is if the European Union has agreed to it. That would require the UK Government specifically to negotiate such an arrangement with the EU. I would be grateful if the Minister could confirm that that is the case, because it is very different from saying that Ofcom will seek observer status. The Government will have to engage positively in negotiations with the European Union to bring that about.

Can the Minister also confirm his understanding of the position of Switzerland? It is a very good example, because its regulator was an observer member of BEREC. With the change in rules in December 2018, it no longer has observer status and the Swiss Government are currently in extensive negotiations with the European Union to see whether agreement can be reached for that to happen—there is no certainty that it will, any more than there will be certainty, for reasons that I shall come on to in a few minutes, about an agreement on this matter being reached between the UK Government and the European Union.

I accept that the Minister is slightly stretching the issue, but I hope that he will confirm that under transitional arrangements of the withdrawal agreement—if the Prime Minister is successful in getting her deal through—the key provision is Article 128 along, in part, with Article 8, which states clearly the UK has no right to participate in decision-making or governance of any EU bodies and no right to attend meetings. During the transition period, there will no opportunity for Ofcom to be involved—with, however, one caveat.

The caveat comes in two parts. It says that there are exceptions: Ofcom may be allowed to pop along for the odd meeting and to participate in discussions but not have a vote, but only in the very limited case where BEREC is discussing a specific case that relates to the United Kingdom or if, by having Ofcom present, it would be beneficial to the EU as a whole. That is a decision for it to make. I would be grateful if the Minister could clarify the point. My understanding is that if the Prime Minister is successful in getting a deal, during the transition phase, the position of Ofcom will be even worse than it would be if it had observer status. That, I believe, would be significantly detrimental to the UK. Post Brexit, if the Prime Minister is successful with her deal, clearly the situation will be somewhat uncertain because it will depend on the interpretation of and success of the negotiations. However, the draft political declaration covers the issue in paragraphs 33 to 35 and 40 to 42. It would be helpful to hear the Minister’s views on how he thinks that this will work out.

My final point is simply this. All of this is dependent on an agreement. Whether we are in the situation of a no-deal Brexit as regards the regulations before us or even if the Prime Minister achieves her deal and we have a transition period with an exit being subject to whatever arrangements have been made, it will all depend on whether the UK has achieved a data adequacy agreement with the European Union. Nothing can happen unless we have one because it is absolutely crucial. I could read out to noble Lords many learned articles about whether it would be possible for the UK to get a data adequacy agreement easily or even to get one at all. For instance, criticisms are already raging about the impact of the investigatory powers legislation, the GDPR regulations, the e-commerce and e-privacy regulations and so on. Whether those will enable us to get a data adequacy regulation or prevent us doing so is very unclear indeed.

I have raised some important points and I look forward to the Minister’s response. Above all, however, he must give us a clear understanding of the Government’s view about the likelihood of us getting a data adequacy agreement. The Minister in the other place made it absolutely clear that if the Prime Minister gets her deal and we have a transition period of almost two years, it will take the whole of those two years to get agreement on data adequacy. She went on to say that if we have a no-deal Brexit, the chances are that getting such an agreement will take even longer. Does that not mean that all of the claims that there will be no significant impact as regards these regulations on people in the UK, both service providers and the regulator, really do not stack up?

[Lord Adonis]

The noble Lord has referred to the data adequacy agreement, which is clearly an important issue. What is his understanding of what the impact would be on the United Kingdom if we did not secure such an agreement in the event of a no-deal Brexit? Presumably it will be quite a tall order to get such an agreement in the next eight weeks.

[Lord Foster of Bath]

Let me give the noble Lord one example. I said earlier that for Ofcom to become a member of BEREC, it is no longer a case of it going to BEREC and saying, “Please can we have observer status?” It will require a negotiated agreement between the UK and the EU. In my view and those I have spoken to about this, the agreement will not be reached unless we have an adequacy agreement. If the adequacy agreement is going to take at least two years and may not be achieved anyway, then during the whole of that period there is no way of Ofcom performing any role whatever within BEREC, for example.

[Lord Adonis]

Does the Minister want to respond to the noble Lord, Lord Foster, before I and my noble friend speak?

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[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The noble Lord asked a lot of questions. Underlying it all is the fact that this SI is there in the event of no deal. Of course, it is not surprising that references to and some of the effects of being in the EU are going to change. The essential point of the SI is that telecoms regulation is performed by national regulatory authorities with EU supervision. The issue is whether the supervision element is significant. The whole point of the SI is to make the regulatory system the same after we leave. The noble Lord made a lot of mileage out of whether we would remain a member of BEREC—

[Lord Foster of Bath]

The issue is not about the regulatory regime staying the same but about who is regulating the regulator. I hope that the Minister will come on to that.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

Yes, absolutely. I will come on to that because nobody regulates the regulator today.

The noble Lord asked me to go beyond no deal to what happens to our membership of BEREC if we have a negotiated deal with an implementation period. During that period, the UK will no longer be a member state of the EU but, as is set out in the terms of the withdrawal agreement, common rules will remain in place. That is why we expect Ofcom to continue to participate in BEREC in line with the terms of the agreement, in the way that the noble Lord, Lord Foster, mentioned.

I point out to noble Lords that there is every reason to suppose that the EU would want that, because Ofcom is one of the leading telecoms regulators in Europe—if not the leading one. The interchange between Ofcom and other European regulators has been extremely beneficial, not only for them but for this country. There is every reason to think that they would wish to continue that—

[Lord Foster of Bath]

I am sorry. The noble Lord is entitled to assert whatever he likes, but I specifically read out a section from the withdrawal agreement, which says, and I repeat, that the UK has no right to participate in decision-making or governance in any EU body of any type and no right to attend meetings. I have given the two caveats: the first relates to any discussion that,

“concerns individual acts addressed to the UK”,

or persons residing or established in the UK; and the second is that the presence of the United Kingdom is,

“necessary and in the interests of the Union”.

It is all very well for the Minister to say that he hopes that it will be perfectly all right and that the EU will have us for other things, but a specific clause in the withdrawal agreement says the opposite.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I was going to read out that exact clause to make my point. If it is,

“in the interests of the Union”,

or where the discussion concerns acts addressed to the UK and its citizens, it provides that the UK will continue to participate in EU agencies and bodies. I think that those two things apply and, as I was saying, the reason why I think that is the mutual benefit Ofcom has. It is a world-leading, well-respected regulator. However, I accept that it does not have the right to do these things. That is not surprising, because we are leaving the EU. Why should it have the right? I think that we have come to stalemate on that point.

The noble Lord mentioned the fact that BEREC rules have changed and that it is not just a question of having been invited to be an observer. He is absolutely right: either there has to be an agreement with the EU as part of a future economic partnership or a bilateral agreement can facilitate it. Under that facility, which the EU has deliberately put in the new BEREC regulations, Ofcom can—under a bilateral agreement—be a member of the board of regulators, the working groups and the management board.

I will move on to data adequacy later. The important issue that both noble Lords mentioned is, crudely put, whether the regulator will still be regulated. The European Commission does not regulate Ofcom. It has a supervisory power, which is principally designed to ensure the consistency of regulatory practices across the EU, in order to contribute to the development of the single market. It is quite understandable that the EU should want to harmonise national regulators to facilitate the single market. Of course, if we leave the EU, that will no longer apply. The role of the European Commission in telecoms regulation is unique and should not be compared to EU scrutiny powers over other UK economic regulators. There is sufficient accountability in the domestic system, because Ofcom decisions can be challenged in the courts—of course, the primary area in which they are challenged is in the statutory appeal before the Competition Appeal Tribunal.

In fact, the withdrawal Act is not a vehicle for policy changes, as I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, will remind us. We think that, under the terms of the Act, recreating a domestic equivalent for the oversight of Ofcom’s decisions will be considered going beyond what is appropriate to correct the deficiency.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I do not think that you can argue it both ways. Of course we will not be involved in the EU supervision, given that the whole point of the supervision is to affect the European single market, of which we will not be a part. To set up a completely new supervisory authority, with a completely different function from what it had before, would, I think, be beyond the powers of the withdrawal Act—it will obviously be different if we are not talking about EU supervision to maintain regulatory harmony.

I come to both noble Lords’ points about the consultation, because I do not believe that they are true. The noble Lord, Lord Foster, made a reference to the UKCTA—its members, by the way, are also members of the BSG—and read out the names of a number of companies that are part of the group which facilitated the round tables. There may be a disagreement with us, as my information is that it was asked to at least one of the round tables. It has met DCMS and has had the opportunity to raise concerns about the SI—as he said, it met DCMS only very recently—and of course our technical notice explains some of the problems and issues about telecoms regulation when we leave the EU, so it is not as though it did not mention it. Therefore, some of that body’s members have sat round the table with DCMS; they have been asked. There is no requirement to send the draft SI to industry, but it had every opportunity to contact DCMS and every opportunity to raise it at the meetings that the noble Lord referred to. We have ongoing and good relations with all parts of the sector, so there is absolutely no reason why, if there is a problem, it could not be raised with DCMS. I do not accept that in this case the consultation has been insufficient. We have had regular and continued consultation with the industry, not only with the telecoms sector but also with consumers and Ofcom itself.

[Lord Foster of Bath]

I do not think that it is necessary to pursue this; I am merely making a simple request. Given that this body says that it has not been consulted—I entirely accept the Minister’s point that the draft regulations have been published and so it could have read them and perhaps could have come forward and said, “Can we discuss this?”—can the Minister just give the Grand Committee an assurance that it will now be invited to come and have a discussion about its concerns on these draft regulations? Then we can move on.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

It is of course a bit late to consult it on the regulations, but we will definitely do so in future. I will try to find out where we have a disagreement on fact—whether it was able to be consulted—and will let the noble Lord know about that. I appreciate his allowing me to move on.

There is an important issue about data adequacy, which the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, mentioned. He asked whether it would happen in the next eight weeks. Of course, what he does not realise is that it cannot happen in the next eight weeks, because you cannot have data adequacy until you are a third country. You will never get data adequacy until exit day; when that will be is another matter. Data adequacy is an important issue. We have said that there will be no restriction on personal data flowing from the UK to the EU; the issue is entirely about personal data flowing from the EU to the UK. What are we doing about it? We have spent a lot of time talking to member states, explaining our mutual interest in having data adequacy. We should not forget that we start from the exact same position, because we have implemented the GDPR. We are therefore in a good position.

The EU has indicated—it has not said it formally—that it will be ready to discuss data adequacy as soon as exit day comes. We are ready to do that, but in the meantime there is a possibility that there will be a gap between when we leave the EU and whenever we get data adequacy. To cope with that gap there are mitigations and ways round it—standard contractual conditions for contracts, for example. We are ramping up the speed of publication and are making industry aware of this. There will be a significant amount of progress on that over the next few weeks. It is always frustrating when you spend time talking to trade bodies—we are talking to about 50 companies a week at the moment, and we will double that—and, despite all that work, people still say that they were not aware of it. We saw that with the GDPR. However, we have a publicity campaign; work is going on to try to make people aware and, for example, to encourage them visit the ICO website, which gives examples of ways to mitigate in case of a gap.

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[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I am sorry that the noble Lord is not looking forward to my reply—he would not be the only one. Let me answer some of his points.

He asked how many hours have been put into the production of the SI. I cannot tell him exactly, but we have been working on it for about 18 months to allow for the engagement of stakeholders and other government departments and the appropriate legal checks. The consultation might not be to everyone’s liking in the sense that it was not formal, but it was real and I shall share some more information with the Committee about who turned up. It was real and, for the reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, gave, we may be vindicated in our decision not to include another regulator on top of Ofcom. I think I have covered that.

When the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, talks about whether it is regulation or supervision and a lessening in oversight, the point to bear in mind is that telecoms have always been regulated by national regulators. The EU Commission has a very particular role in this connected with EU matters—namely, the single market. It is obvious that if we are no longer in the EU and the single market, not only will that supervisory function not be performed by the EU because we will not be in it but there will not be a harmonisation problem.

[Lord Foster of Bath]

I said that I would not intervene but I am intervening. The Minister is well aware that the financial consequences of telecoms companies, for example, in the UK, which do not abide by regulations imposed by the European Union will be significant. Even following Brexit, there will be huge impacts, one upon another. Therefore, to suggest that Ofcom does not have to have regard to that is just wrong.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I may have missed the noble Lord’s point. The regulatory framework set up through EU directives and regulations has been implemented in UK law and is administered and regulated by the UK. It will change, so in certain cases we have provided that Ofcom, the regulator, will bear in mind the current status of EU directives but in future will have the liberty to move away from them, which is only to be expected because we will not be in the EU. Therefore, we have taken account of EU law as we are trying to maintain the existing regulatory framework, although I accept that in future we might move away from it. The noble Lord, Lord Foster, says that it is changing. It is, and the basis of this SI is that we are leaving the EU, so there is change.

The noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, asked about paragraph 7 of the Explanatory Memorandum: why Ofcom may exchange information with the EU Commission or BEREC. The reason is that it will be given the option to do so if it is in the best interests of this country. It would be perverse to deny it the option to do that, so we are giving it that power. Both noble Lords rightly made the point that it will not, ex officio, be a member of BEREC. We expect it to be either an observer or a member of the various groups that I mentioned, and we hope that it will be. Whether it is or is not, we think it would often be in the regulatory interests of this country to exchange information. I think it is extremely likely that it would do so and I am sure that regulatory information will flow the other way. It is the subjunctive, I feel, in answer to the noble Lord’s question.

I am grateful for the consideration of the instrument and expect a very brief further discussion—consultation, possibly—later; I have made commitments on that. We think that the amendments contained in the SI are essential to ensure legal clarity, to reduce litigation risk and to protect consumers. Beyond that, we have agreed on the necessity for the regime to exist to correct deficiencies in retained EU law. On that basis, I hope that noble Lords will be able to approve the consideration of the regulation.