Review of Gaming Machines

Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts

Tuesday 31st October 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will repeat in the form of a Statement an Answer to an Urgent Question made by my honourable friend the Minister in the other place responsible for gambling. The Statement is as follows:

“I am pleased to inform the House that I published a consultation on proposals for changes to gaming machines and social responsibility requirements across the gambling industry today. The consultation will run for 12 weeks, during which the general public, industry and all other interested parties will be able to voice their views on the questions raised. I appreciate some may not understand why we have to run a consultation, but this is the right process by which to proceed if we are to address this issue thoroughly and properly.

As you know, the Government announced a review of gaming machines and social responsibility measures in October 2016 and I am grateful to all those who responded, including individual former addicts, faith groups, local authorities and the bookmakers. The objective of the review was to ensure we have the right balance between a sector that can grow and contribute to the economy, and one that is socially responsible and doing all it should to protect consumers and communities.

While our consultation sets out a package of measures to protect vulnerable people from harm, the main area of interest has been the stake of B2 gaming machines, known as fixed-odds betting terminals or FOBTs for short. We believe that the current regulation of FOBTs is inappropriate to achieve our stated objective of protecting consumers and wider communities. We are therefore consulting on regulatory changes to the maximum stake, looking at options between £50 and £2 to reduce the potential for large losses and therefore the potentially harmful impact on the player, their families and the wider community.

We are aware that the factors which influence the extent of harm to the player are wider than one product or a limited set of parameters such as stakes and prizes, and include factors around the player, the environment and the product. We are therefore also consulting on corresponding social responsibility measures, on player protections in the online sector and on a package of measures on gambling advertising. Within this package we want to see industry, the regulator and charities continue to drive a social responsibility agenda to ensure all is being done to protect players and that those in trouble can access the treatment and support they need.

The consultation will close on 23 January 2018, following which government will consider their final proposals”.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, while I am grateful to the Minister for repeating that Statement, I confess it leaves me perplexed. The recent review and other sources have yielded facts enough: 430,000 gamblers with an addiction, up by a third in three years; a further 2 million problem gamblers at risk of developing an addiction; £1.8 billion lost on these machines each year, an increase of 79% in the last eight years; and a gambling industry whose yield, or the amounts it wins in bets, has increased to £13.8 billion from £8.36 billion in 2009, having spent a mere £10 million towards a voluntary levy last year on education and treatment. Some 450,000 children gamble at least once a week.

My question is simple: granted that we are armed already with factual and proven information, what is to be gained by having this consultation? Will the Government let us know clearly what they are probing for by holding this further consultation, and can they assure me that, with the grass-cutting season nearly over, it is not an exercise for lobbing things into the long grass?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, that is not an unexpected question. I can assure the noble Lord that we are not putting this into the long grass. He is absolutely right that there was a six-week evidence-gathering session. The evidence gathered has convinced us of the need to take action and reduce the maximum FOBT stakes. However, it is a complex issue and not about stakes alone. We are therefore publishing today a package of measures to address the concerns. We must strike the right balance between the socially responsible growth of the industry and the protection of consumers and the communities they live in. Our position is that the maximum stake should be between £50 and £2. We are consulting on that specific issue. This has to be done with due process to avoid any further problems which may come in the future with doing it in too rushed a manner.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, Liberal Democrats have been calling for a £2 stake on these highly addictive machines, which have been a catalyst of problem gambling, social breakdown and serious crime in communities, for nearly a decade. We therefore give a qualified welcome to the review, but, rather like the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, we are disappointed that a range of options rather than a firm recommendation is being given, and that we now have a 12-week consultation rather than action. Reducing the maximum stake to £50 would still mean that you could lose £750 in five minutes, or £300 if the stake was reduced to £20. I urge the Minister and his colleagues to resist Treasury pressure and move to take effective action by focusing on stake reduction to £2, which would put a clear and sensible limit on all high street machines. Can the Minister tell us what the role of the Gambling Commission has been and will be in the consultation? It has a duty to minimise gambling-related harm and protect children and the vulnerable. Will the Government act on that advice? Will the review examine the proliferation of betting shops on the high street and the self-referral or exclusion system, which is so ineffective? As well as reducing the maximum stake, will it look at limiting the spin rate? Finally, will the consultation address stakes in online equivalents to these games, such as blackjack?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes a predictable comment about Treasury pressure, of which there was none. The decision on stakes will come from DCMS and not from the Treasury—although it will take into account fiscal implications, as it does for any government policy. The Gambling Commission is involved in the consultation because it is involved also in the other package of measures covered by it. The consultation is not just on the stakes but on other matters such as tougher licence conditions. The noble Lord referred to spin rates. What one can lose where higher stakes are concerned depends on the spin rate. I can confirm that that will be included in the consultation. I urge the noble Lord and the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, to contribute to the consultation and make their views known.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

My Lords, last year, there were more than 200,000 occasions when gamblers on FOBTs lost more than £1,000 at a single sitting. All other forms of gambling with stakes of more than £2 are restricted to premises such as casinos, which do not have open access and are not on the high street. Does the Minister agree that the only way to rectify the mistake of the 2005 Act and restore logic and order to the gambling regime is to support a £2 stake?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

As I just said, the stake is not the only thing that matters. That is why we are introducing a package of measures. The level of stake is important, obviously, and that is why we are committed to reducing it. But there are economic impacts that must be taken into account, depending on the level of stake that is chosen. The spin rates are important, as are the other measures which may deter people from gambling. I hope the right reverend Prelate will contribute to the consultation.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend accept that it is not just the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths—whom we are delighted to see on the Front Bench—the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and the right reverend Prelate who have misgivings about this? This is a very disappointing Statement. This is a social issue where we look to the Government to give firm guidance and leadership and not to pussyfoot around. It really is important that the moment this—what I consider unnecessary—period of consultation is over, we have firm action.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I agree with the noble Lord that the Government should provide guidance and leadership. That is why we have said we believe that the stakes should be reduced. But we have also said—sensibly, I think—that these things have to be done in a proper way and if they are not done in a responsible and thoughtful way, according to the evidence, problems may ensue from that. This 12-week consultation is necessary.

[Lord Richard (Lab)]

My Lords, I confess I have almost totally lost the Government’s position on this. At one and the same time they say, “Yes, there is a problem. Yes, we have gathered the evidence. Yes, we know what the evidence is. Yes, it points unmistakably in the direction of doing something about this issue. Yes, we are convinced”—to use the Minister’s own word—“of the need to do something about it”, and what do we get? We get another consultation period. With great respect to the Minister, and indeed to the Government, merely saying something is appropriate does not make it appropriate. It does not make it right to have a consultation period just because the Government say it is. As far as I can see, there is absolutely no need for it. The Government have the evidence, they have the proposals—why on earth do they not do it?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

Because there is more to it than just the stake. As I said, there is an impact from the different levels of stake, and we have published an economic impact assessment today. The issue is the right balance between continuing a perfectly legal industry and social protection for consumers. That is why we have decided that the stake should be lowered. The 12-week consultation on this and the package of measures that goes with it will ensure that the decisions are made with due process.

[Lord Porter of Spalding (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that noble Lords are quite right to see this as being not FOBT but fobbed off? The stake is considerably too high, even if it is halved. It should not be possible for somebody to lose more than a week’s wages in a matter of moments. That money is lost to the local economy—it is being wasted—and we need to do something as quickly as possible to make sure that all the benefits of that money are spread across the whole community and not just into the bank accounts of a few businesses.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, if you do it without the proper consideration and it is judicially reviewed, the result may be that you wait longer.

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

My Lords, will the Minister give an assurance today that the review and report will include the areas where betting outlets are located? Many of them are located in areas of deprivation and cause great social harm, particularly among families.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord. These outlets tend to be in areas of social deprivation. That was included in the review. It is not my area of expertise but I believe that local authorities have been given powers to restrict these outlets, especially new ones.

Data Protection Bill [HL]

Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 30th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood (CB)]

My Lords, when I came into the Chamber, I had not the faintest intention of speaking in this debate. I do so, above all, for one reason: not because I am opposed to the amendment, although I am, very substantially, for the reasons given by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. I do so because, in my experience, it is very unusual nowadays to vote at the outset of Committee stage on so fundamental a question as that raised by the amendment. It is surely yet more unusual—spectacularly so—to do so on a manuscript amendment filed this morning, which none of us has had sufficient time to deal with, on a very tricky area of the law, which so fundamentally alters the original amendment. As we have heard, that amendment was completely hopeless. The noble Lord, Lord Lester, described it as “constitutionally illiterate”. At least this one tries to introduce the concept of a balanced right which previously was missing.

It is true that I come from a different tradition where you do not vote on anything or decide anything unless you have heard the arguments. I rather gather that there may be a whipped vote on the other side, so the amendment is going to be voted on by noble Lords who have not heard the arguments of the noble Lords, Lord Pannick, Lord Faulks and Lord Lester, and who do not recognise the difficulties and the fundamental importance of this amendment. I seriously urge that it is not pressed to a Division today.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken, many of whom do not appear to support these amendments. I particularly thank the lawyers in the House, who have instructed us on the legal position. I feel slightly like the lay person who was talked about, which I am, I hasten to add.

On a political view, it is important to remember that only three weeks ago at Second Reading it was clear that the Bill was widely supported across the House. Many noble Lords highlighted areas where further scrutiny and perhaps improvement were desired, but the House was unanimous in the view that data protection laws needed updating, that the general data protection regulation standards were the right standards, and that we must do everything to maintain future free flows of data. We shared those conclusions because we understand the role and value of data in our digital world and how it is the basis of delivering education, social mobility and economic advantage. That is why it is so sad that in this first group of amendments, on the first of seven days of Committee, for a Lords starter Bill, the opposition parties have threatened to suspend the usual business arrangements whereby we can debate in Committee, meet subsequently outside the Chamber and often come to agreement before the Bill leaves our House—an arrangement which does not prevent votes when they are needed, but which has worked well in the past. I urge noble Lords not to put this at risk. The Data Protection Act has stood the test of time because it was not a partisan piece of legislation, and we must not allow this Bill to become one.

Many noble Lords have said that these amendments are made in good faith to ensure that the UK is given a data protection adequacy agreement by our largest trading partner. This is the right ultimate objective, but it is the wrong route to get there. Contrary to the charge of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, we have not forgotten the importance of a free flow of data. In fact, ensuring we maintain a free flow of data is our number one priority, and we want to achieve that from the moment of Brexit, not wait to become a third country and then start the application process for adequacy. I direct those remarks especially to the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones. That is why last year we committed to ensuring that the UK adopts GDPR standards. That is why in August we published our plans and ambitions for the free flow of data once we leave the EU. That is why we have presented this House with this Bill: a Bill which builds a comprehensive regulatory system for personal data that covers everything that could be scrutinised in future adequacy negotiations, including areas which are not currently subject to EU jurisdiction. That answers the question of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, on adequacy and the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones.

In the past, 12 countries have negotiated adequacy agreements with the EU Commission, including Canada, Israel, New Zealand and the USA. None of these was forced by the EU Commission to put the charter into their law in order to obtain adequacy. It is not a requirement and it is peculiar to suggest that it will be. It is a myth that we need this amendment to secure a future agreement. Why is that? The GDPR itself, which will become part of our law, says in Recital 4:

“This Regulation respects all fundamental rights and observes the freedoms and principles recognised in the Charter as enshrined in the Treaties, in particular the respect for private and family life, home and communications, the protection of personal data”.


Recital 173 says:

“This Regulation should apply to all matters concerning the protection of fundamental rights and freedoms vis-à-vis the processing of personal data”.


The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, was reported over the weekend to be claiming that the Government were scaremongering. We were not. We were deadly serious about the risks, so I am delighted that the noble Lord has now recognised that Amendment 4 needs further thought. What a pity, therefore, that he was unable to discuss it with the Government.

I listened to the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, who addressed the original Amendment 4. The problem, which I think has been alluded to, is that subsection (3) of the proposed new clause creates an absolute unqualified right to data protection. As attractive as that sounds, it is fatal, for two reasons. First, data protection is not an absolute right, as many noble Lords have said, and the GDPR says it explicitly, too:

“The right to the protection of personal data is not an absolute right; it must be considered in relation to its function in society and be balanced against other fundamental rights, in accordance with the principle of proportionality”.


Secondly, both the GDPR and the Bill create a number of exemptions from data rights, which we will debate over the next few weeks. However, while we may disagree on some exemptions, I think that we all agree on the important ones. Terrorists must not be given unrestrained access to information held about them by the security services. Scientists must not usually be prevented from advancing research and furthering understanding. Therefore, the original Amendment 4 creates a risk at precisely the time we need reassurance.

However, Amendment 4A is a welcome improvement. We received this amendment just before noon today. Data protection is not the simplest area of our law, and at Second Reading many noble Lords commented on the complexity of the subject. It would be irresponsible of the Government to accept an amendment of this sort with just a few hours to consider it. What does it mean for future data flows and trade? How does it interlock with the rest of our legislation on information rights? What will the courts make of it?

At best, Amendment 4A is unnecessary or may not achieve what it seeks to achieve. Two particular problems with it were mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. First, it has no value, and it only creates legal confusion. Secondly, subsection (4) of the proposed new clause is unwise. Rights often conflict; the Bill and the Human Rights Act manage those conflicts, while subsection (4) does not. At worst, as my noble friend Lord Faulks, outlined, it may have unintended consequences which nobody has been able to consider. Our initial analysis is similar to that given by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, that Amendment 4A probably does very little. It does little other than summarise what the Bill does. The Bill protects personal data rights, and Amendment 4A reminds us of this. None the less, with so much at stake, we must give this amendment full and careful legal analysis.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, has been placed in a difficult position. Labour is in a muddle over this. But that is exactly why we do not usually vote in Committee. This stage is for resolving muddles and for understanding the issues. It is not the stage for tabling amendments on the day and voting on them hours later, without even discussing it with the Government. I cannot see how this is a service to the House, which prides itself on careful reflection.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, reminded us at Second Reading about the number of Bills that he and I have worked on together. He said that this was the sixth. I pay tribute to the careful, detailed—and sometimes even enjoyable—scrutiny he has given. We have had many useful meetings. Today is the first day in Committee and the first group of amendments on the Bill. We should continue with the positive spirit that we have built together, setting out our arguments and concerns. We can continue to meet outside the Chamber, and I and the Bill team are always happy to listen to and meet other interested noble Lords. On Report, we can reflect and, where we disagree, we can divide.

Therefore, I hope that noble Lords will see that now is not the time and these are not the amendments on which we should divide at this stage. They are unnecessary and they may be deficient. This Bill is essential for our social and economic future, and we risk wrecking it at the first hurdle. I therefore ask the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.

Data Protection Bill [HL]

Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts

Monday 30th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, has raised the question of the meaning of “broadly equivalent”. It encapsulates a difficulty I have found throughout the Bill: the language of the GDPR and of the law enforcement directive is more narrative and descriptive than language to which we are accustomed in UK legislation. Though one might say we should just apply a bit of common sense, that is not always the first thing to apply in interpreting UK legislation.

In this clause, there is another issue apart from the fact that “broadly equivalent” gives a lot of scope for variation. Although Clause 3 is an introduction to the part, if there are problems of interpretation later in Part 2, one might be tempted to go back to Clause 3 to find out what the part is about and be further misled or confused.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords for their comments and the opportunity, I hope, to make things clearer. Amendment 5 seeks to make it clear that the applied GDPR does not apply to processing activities which fall outside the scope of EU law. Amendment 6 examines the differences between the GDPR and the applied GDPR. The applied GDPR exists to extend the GDPR standards for personal data processing to datasets outside the scope of EU law, which may be otherwise left unregulated. This is an essential extension because, first, we believe that all personal data should be protected, irrespective of EU legal competence; and, secondly, we need a complete data protection regulatory system to secure the future free flow of data.

Chapter 3 of Part 2 and Schedule 6 create the applied GDPR, which is close to, but not identical to, the GDPR. This is primarily because we have anglicised it as it sits within our domestic law, not European law. References to member states become references to the UK. As domestic regulation it is also outside the scope of the functions of the European Data Protection Board, so appropriate amendments are needed to reflect that. Otherwise the same general standards and exemptions apply to the applied GDPR as for the GDPR.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

Perhaps the Minister will respond to that because I, too, am troubled about the same point. If I am right, and I will read Hansard to make sure I am not misreading or mishearing what was said, the situation until such time as we leave through Brexit is covered by the GDPR. The extraterritorial—I cannot say it but you know what I am going to say—is still in place. Therefore, as suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, a company operating out of a foreign country which was selling goods and services within the UK would have to have a representative, and that representative could be attached should there be a requirement to do so. It is strange that we are not doing that in the applied GDPR because, despite the great improvement that will come from better language, the issue is still the same. If there is someone that our laws cannot attack, there is obviously an issue. Perhaps the Minister would like to respond.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

Quite apart from the get-out that Clause 3 is only a signposting, I can confirm that we are not derogating from the GDPR. We intend to apply GDPR standards when we leave the EU, so we are not derogating from the GDPR on extraterritoriality.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

This concerns Amendment 115, which is to a substantial part of the Bill; it is not the issue raised by the amendment I introduced. We are talking about page 158, line 34. Perhaps it would be better if I requested a letter on this point so that—again, I cannot say the word—does not bog us down.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

Extraterritoriality.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

Isn’t he so smooth? Unfortunately, I bet Hansard does not print that. However, extraterritoriality is important because it represents a diminution of the ability of those data subjects affected by actions taken by those bodies in terms of their future redress. It is important that we get that right and I would be grateful if the Minister could write to us on that.

I am satisfied with what the Minister said on Amendments 5 and 6. I am grateful and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, I refer the Committee to my registered interests: I am on the board of two small charities in the London Borough of Southwark.

I recall from Second Reading the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, who is not in his place today, talking about the effect of the legislation on small organisations—many others have made reference to it already. He referred to parish councils, which often employ just a part-time parish clerk. The noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom, spoke similarly about the effect on organisations. Both noble Lords had a point at Second Reading, as does the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, with her amendment today.

As we have heard, the amendment limits the scope of the Act to organisations employing more than five people and specifies for exemption organisations such as small businesses, charities and parish councils which meet the employment qualification of five employees or fewer. My noble friend Lord Knight of Weymouth made a valuable point about size and turnover—I think the noble Baroness accepted that in her intervention.

The amendment also makes the useful point that the exemption is not limited to these three specific groups but seeks to cast a wider net. I certainly want to hear from the Minister that community councils would be exempted, as well as the small not-for-profit sector and small co-operatives, which I am sure is the intention behind the amendment.

The amendment needs a detailed response, as we have to be clear on what the Government think is reasonable for such organisations to have to comply with and how the Government will make it as simple as possible and not pile additional burdens on them. I hope the Minister will not say that these organisations already have to comply with the 1998 Act and that this legislation is only a very small increase in what is required. We will require a lot more reassurance than that from the Minister.

Amendment 152, also in this group, would place a duty on the Information Commissioner to advise Parliament, government and other institutions and bodies on the likely consequences, economic or otherwise, for industry, charities and public authorities of measures relating to the protection of individuals’ rights and freedoms with regard to the processing of personal data. The noble Baroness again makes a valid point and there is merit to placing this duty in the Bill.

If the Minister thinks that Clause 113, and specifically Clause 113(3)(b), is sufficient to provide the Information Commissioner with the power and the duty to do what is set out in the amendment, we need him carefully to set that out today for the benefit of your Lordships’ House.

Amendments 169—and Amendment 170, which would add “and charities” to it—raises some very important issues. It would place a duty on the Secretary of State to ensure that they or the Information Commissioner had a programme in place to ensure that information on the new duties that businesses and charities will be obliged to follow is publicly available. Again, these are very important and welcome amendments. Large businesses, large corporations and large charities will more than likely have the structures in place to ensure that they comply with any new requirements, but smaller organisations do not have compliance departments or lawyers on retainer to advise them. The Government have to get that message out to them. I particularly like subsection (2) of the new clause proposed by Amendment 169, which would require this information to be placed online and the Secretary of State to have regard to the creation of online training and testing to meet the requirements of the new Act. This group of amendments raises important matters on which I hope the Minister can give the Committee some reassurance.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have raised the amendments and commented on them, because the Government recognise the concern behind them; namely, to protect the smallest organisations from the additional requirements established by this and future data protection legislation and to ensure that all UK businesses and organisations are properly supported through the transition.

I fully concur with my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe that supporting UK businesses of all sizes must be a priority. I can assure her that it is of the utmost importance both for the Government and for the Information Commissioner. However, I cannot agree with the proposal in Amendment 7 that those organisations with five or fewer employees be exempted from the requirements of the Act. We are talking in this Bill not just about businesses but about individual rights of data subjects. As my noble friend Lord Lucas mentioned, it is right that individuals enjoy the protections that will be afforded by this new regime regardless of the size of the organisation with which they are dealing. People should not be afforded a lesser degree of protection simply because they have chosen to do business with, or indeed to voluntarily support, a small organisation. After all, the fact that an organisation employs few staff does not mean that a breach of data protection law will cause a correspondingly small amount of distress. Many of the most cutting-edge financial technology firms begin life in someone’s back bedroom, but it does not make their customers’ transaction history any less worthy of protection.

Amendment 7 is unlikely to have the intended effect because the GDPR does not permit such an exemption. As an area in which our ongoing relationship with the European Union will be of the utmost importance, I do not consider that such an amendment would be in the best interests of British businesses.

However, I understand my noble friend’s concerns that the smallest organisations may be the least well equipped to deal with the changes introduced by this regime. I was therefore pleased to learn recently—the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, mentioned this—that the Information Commissioner has announced the establishment of a dedicated telephone advice service for small and micro businesses to support them in implementation. The noble Lord also mentioned that the threshold was 250 employees, which represents quite a large organisation by today’s terms, with small businesses, especially in the tech field, growing up all over the place.

In respect of Amendment 152, I fully concur with my noble friend about the importance of monitoring the consequences of the Act for businesses and other organisations. I reassure her that there is already, quite rightly, a broad obligation on government to assess and report on the impact of all legislation that regulates business under the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Act 2015. In addition, the Information Commissioner will be required to advise Parliament, government and other bodies on both legislative and administrative measures relating to the new Act and to provide opinions on any issue relating to the protection of personal data. My noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe also asked about the impact on business. I confirm that the Government will publish a further assessment of the impact of the Bill on business very shortly.

With regard to Amendment 169, it is worth reiterating that the Information Commissioner has already provided general guidance, which is available online to all businesses, to help them understand their obligations. The commissioner is continuing to develop this guidance and has a programme in place for publication. I cannot go through it all but, in addition to the guidance the ICO has already published, it expects to develop this further between now and May into a fully comprehensive guide to the GDPR, including summaries and checklists, as well as more detailed content focused on key areas. This will also be available online from early next year. Later this year, the Information Commissioner will publish draft guidance on children’s data; on accountability, including documentation; on legitimate interests, including examples addressing universities maintaining alumni relationships; and draft guidance on security of processing, including joint work on high-level security principles. It will also provide sector-specific guidance. The Government are working with the Information Commissioner to identify appropriate areas and to work with sectors to deliver more guidance.

In respect of timing, I completely agree with my noble friend that it is desirable that up-to-date guidance about the new regime is available to businesses as soon as possible. As I have just set out, that is precisely what the commissioner is already attempting. But I fear that it may not be feasible, as the amendment requires, for final information to be published at least six months before the commencement of the provisions in the Act, not least because changes to the Bill may affect that guidance.

In respect of Amendment 170, I share the sentiment of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, in wishing to ensure that charities are provided with guidance to help them understand their obligations. I reassure him that the general guidance that the Information Commissioner has already published is designed to assist all organisations through the transition.

The noble Lord, Lord Knight, asked how the role of the Information Commissioner will develop and be resourced. My noble friend Lady Williams said at Second Reading that the Government take the adequate resourcing of the Information Commissioner very seriously and have provided for an appropriate charging regime in Part 5 of the Bill. I assure the noble Lord that we are aware that there are problems with the Information Commissioner at the moment and we are looking at that. But, possibly for the reasons that he mentioned, I am not able to make any binding commitments tonight. But I accept that there is an issue there. We are looking at it.

I assure noble Lords that the Government share the concerns raised in these amendments and are particularly pleased that the Information Commissioner is actively taking steps to provide dedicated support for small and micro enterprises, including the telephone service I mentioned earlier. With that in mind, I hope my noble friend feels able to withdraw her amendment.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

The Minister mentioned guidance a few times and said that it might not be ready in time. I was reminded of our debates—which he was not involved in—on the Housing and Planning Bill. We were told about guidance and regulations, and well over a year later we have seen next to nothing. This is such an important issue that we need to hear a little more from the Minister. I and many other noble Lords mentioned parish councils. I do not think he mentioned those. For example, I know the Deeping St James Parish Council in Lincolnshire very well. It employs only a part-time clerk. I think the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, made a similar point about parish councils at Second Reading. Perhaps the Minister could say something about that.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

Yes, I think my noble friend mentioned the parish council of the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, in her reply. I make the point again that individuals’ data rights have to be protected. Just because parish councils are small organisations does not mean that they should not take that seriously—and I am sure they do. With regard to the practicalities of how they cope with their duties, apart from the fact that the Information Commissioner is providing guidance specifically for small organisations, the parish clerk—who already often works for more than one parish council so they can share the cost—is in a good position to deal with the duties under the Bill and will be able to take the guidance relating specifically to small businesses and organisations from the Information Commissioner.

I admit that I did not follow the Housing and Planning Bill too closely. But I mentioned a lot of the guidance that will be available before the end of the year. The Information Commissioner is very aware of the need to produce this quickly. In addition, of course, she is actively involved in outlining the European guidance on which a lot of member states’ guidance will be based. Therefore, she is helping to set the tone on which her future guidance will be based.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

That is fine as far it goes. The point I am making is that we have heard guidance mentioned two or three times, in relation to two or three different organisations. I know that the Minister was not involved but we heard the same comments about guidance and regulations from the Government Front Bench when we were dealing with the Housing and Planning Bill. I hope we are not having déjà vu here. We hear these things are coming forward. These things are very important. I accept entirely that people’s data are important—of course they are—but, equally, getting this guidance right is important, as is organisations being able to have the information so that they ensure that they comply with the law. I hope the Minister can take back how important this is. He said it will all be after Report, at the end of the year. The Bill will have long left this House and we will be saying, “Where is this guidance then? You promised it and nothing has arrived”. It really is not good enough for the individual data subject or for business or for anyone else involved.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I agree with the noble Lord that, if nothing did arrive, it would not be good enough.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

My Lords, I was slightly disappointed when all my amendments were grouped, but bringing them together has led to an extremely useful and productive debate. I am very grateful to noble Lords right across the Committee for their support. I am also grateful to the Minister for saying that he will let us have a compliance cost assessment, which I will read with the detail and vigour that it merits, and for some of the other points he made.

I am a little disappointed about how we achieve some de minimis relief for the smaller organisations in these various sectors, including the ones mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, as well as on guidance—I am not sure we are quite there. We need to think a little further. I gave the Minister an example of the difficulties that the data analytics sector had had on consent. It would be good if he could look at that point and perhaps arrange for a meeting so that we could talk further. I will look in Hansard at the progress we have made in this very constructive discussion and possibly come back on Report on one or two points. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Patel (CB)]

My Lords, I speak to Amendments 11 and 13, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and Amendment 154, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, and to which I have added my name in support.

When I first read the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, I was concerned because I thought them quite restrictive. Now that he has spoken to them, I can see that he intended them to be wider, so I apologise to him that I did not have the opportunity to speak with him beforehand, so that I would have had that clarification. None the less, having said that, I am concerned that the amendment would restrict the interpretation of,

“a task carried out in the public interest”,

and a narrow list is set out in Clause 7(a) to (d). That is a major concern for universities and other institutions involved in research.

It is absolutely important that universities and other public bodies that carry out research functions are able to use,

“task carried out in the public interest”,

as a legal basis for processing personal data. Restricting this clause to apply only to those functions listed in paragraphs (a) to (d) would instantly make all processing of personal data carried out for research purposes with a university illegal. That is unless it could meet the stringent requirements of GDPR-compliant consent, which I will speak to on an amendment in the group that follows.

None the less, providing further clarity through regulations would ensure that “public interest” was not used as a catch-all for public bodies, negating the incentive to restrict the definition in the Bill in the way proposed by this amendment. I have no doubt that we will have a discussion and that the amendment is not intended to be so restrictive. I look forward to the Minister’s summing up.

I support Amendment 154 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara. However, under the GDPR, all users and controllers of data will need to be much clearer about the legal basis that they use to process personal data, and more explicit with data subjects about what is happening to data about them. However, this shift is also likely to generate a certain amount of confusion among researchers who process personal data as part of their studies.

An enormous amount of research using personal data is carried out by universities, which constitute public bodies. As it stands, the Bill defines “public interest” in quite a narrow way—and I shall come to that in more detail when I deal with a group of amendments in my name. But “public interest” is an underspecified notion that could be interpreted in many ways, in the absence of authoritative guidance—and it is that absence that the amendment under the name of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, deals with. Placing the requirement to produce codes of practice in the Bill will ensure that it is an undertaking that receives the urgent attention that it demands, and I support it for that reason.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, this is a rather unusual occasion, in that normally noble Lords say that they are going to read very carefully what the Minister has said in Hansard. In this case, I am certainly going to have to read carefully what the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, said, in Hansard. This is a complicated matter and I thought that I was following it and then thought that I did not—and then I thought that I did again. I shall set out what I think should be the answer to his remarks, but when we have both read Hansard we may have to get together again before Report on this matter.

I am glad that we have this opportunity to set out the approach taken in the Bill to processing that is in the public interests and the substantial public interests. Both terms are not new; they appeared before 1998, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said, in the 1995 data protection directive, in the same sense as they are used in the GDPR and the Bill. That is to say, “substantial public interest” is one of the bases for the processing of special categories of personal data, and this is a stricter test than the public interest test that applies in connection with the processing of all categories of personal data. The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, was wrong to suggest that the list provided in the 1998 Act in relation to public interest was genuinely exhaustive, I think. As he said himself, the effect of paragraph 5(d) of Schedule 2 was to make that list non-exhaustive.

In keeping with the approach taken under the 1998 Act, the Government have not limited the public interest general processing condition. The list in Clause 7 is therefore non-exhaustive. This is intentional, and enables organisations which undertake legitimate public interest tasks to continue to process general data. Noble Lords may recall that the Government committed after Second Reading to update the Explanatory Notes to provide reassurance that Clause 7 should be interpreted broadly. Universities, museums and many other organisations carrying out important work for the benefit of society all rely on this processing condition. For much the same reason, “public interest” has not historically been defined in statute, recognising that the public interest will change over time and according to the circumstances of each situation. This flexibility is important, and I would not wish to start down the slippery slope of attempting to define it further.

The Government have, however, chosen to set out in Part 2 of Schedule 1 an exhaustive list of types of processing which they consider constitute, or could constitute, processing in the substantial public interest. That reflects the increased risks for data subjects when their sensitive personal data is processed. Again, this approach replicates that taken in the 1998 Act. Where the Government consider that processing meeting a condition in that part will sometimes, but not necessarily, meet the substantial public interest test, a sub-condition to that effect is included. This ensures that the exemption remains targeted on those processing activities in the substantial public interest. A similar approach was taken in secondary legislation made under the 1998 Act. The Government intend to keep Part 2 of Schedule 1 under review, and have proposed a regulation-making power in Clause 9 that would allow Schedule 1 to be updated or refined in a timelier manner than would be the case if primary legislation were required. We will of course return to that issue in a later group.

Amendment 15 seeks to make clear that the public interest test referred to in Clause 7 is not restricted by the substantial public interest test referred to in Part 2 of Schedule 1. Having described the purposes of both these elements of the Bill, I hope that noble Lords can see that these are two separate tests. The different wording used would mean that these would be interpreted as different tests, and there is no need to amend the Bill to clarify that further.

Amendment 154 would require the Information Commissioner to develop a code of practice in relation to the processing of personal data in the public interest and substantial public interest. As we have already touched on, the Information Commissioner is developing relevant guidance to support the implementation of the new data protection framework. Should there later prove a need to formalise this guidance as a code of practice, Clause 124 provides the Secretary of State with the power to direct the Information Commissioner to make such a code. There is no need to make further provision.

I hope that that explanation satisfies noble Lords for tonight, and I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment. However, in this complicated matter, I am certainly prepared to meet noble Lords to discuss this further, if they so require.

[Lord Clement-Jones]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that very helpful exposition. I shall return the compliment and read his contribution in Hansard with great care. I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, if the Bill has already had a befuddling influence on me. It comes from looking along the Labour Benches too much in profile.

With this amendment, I feel somewhat caught between the noble Lord, Lord Patel, and a very hard place. Clearly, he wants flexibility in a public interest test, and I can well understand that. But there are issues to which we shall need to return. The idea of a specific code seems the way forward; the way forward is not by granting overmighty powers to the Government to change the definitions according to the circumstances. I think that that was the phrase that the Minister used—they wish to have that flexibility so that the public interest test could be varied according to circumstances. If there is a power to change, it has to be pretty circumscribed. Obviously, we will come back to that in a later group. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Data Protection Bill [HL]

Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 30th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

It might have been. The noble Lord has exposed a much greater issue than we thought we were grappling with. The case has now been well made that there are four pillars rather than the three that I adumbrated before. We seem to have a case for special treatment. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Patel, with his assiduous workload and high work rate will have made this point several times to officials and Ministers. However, if he is not getting the answers he needs, we have a bit of a problem here, so I hope that the Minister will be able to help us on that.

This goes back to an earlier debate about the public interest. It again worries me—I think the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, touched on this—that “public interest” is becoming an overworked term for rather too many issues. In other words, the argument here is not about the public interest at all; it is about the public good that would come from a differential approach, safeguarded by the ethics approach—I said that was new to me and I am grateful to hear about it—and about reinforcing the contribution that would make to an industrial strategy covering a much broader range of understanding about what we are doing, thus making this country a world centre for all that. So there is a power behind this that I had not appreciated and I am grateful to the noble Lord for explaining it. It is easy to analyse it in this way and come up with the answer that he might want, but is it the right way forward on this?

The noble Lord was wise to point out that there are constraints within the GDPR and limits on what the Government can do, but it must be possible to think more creatively about the problem that has come forward. If, as the noble Lord said, the GDPR opens up the question of not requiring consent in that very formal sense, and we are looking for an evidence-led policy initiative which addresses the public good, it behoves Ministers to think very carefully about how one might take it forward.

This may or may not be the only issue that requires this sort of approach, but the case has been made on its merits that more needs to be done. Listing existing bodies that are not included, to put it in the positive, in a list of issues—for example, the administration of justice is a function of the Houses of Parliament—is not the way into this issue. I appeal to the Minister to think creatively about this because it seems to me that we need a new approach here. I am very convinced by that and look forward to hearing what the Minister says.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, first, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Patel, for his insightful remarks and for providing us with evidence of his knowledge of this subject, and of the Bill’s potential implications for pioneering medical research. I am grateful to him for sharing his expertise on these issues. I am also grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller, who speaks on behalf of the Wellcome Trust. Other reputable medical research organisations and universities have also expressed concern about this issue. I understand about the issue of consent and whether it is GDPR-compliant.

On the concerns the noble Lord raised in relation to Clause 7, I mentioned at Second Reading, and on a previous group of amendments, that the list of tasks in Clause 7 is deliberately designed to be indicative and non-exhaustive. When I wrote to noble Lords after that debate, I committed to make this clearer in the Explanatory Notes and the Government will honour that commitment.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, mentioned that we might have to have a new approach to this problem. We are happy to think about these issues. At the moment we find that it is difficult to expand Clause 7 to cover every scenario where personal data has been processed in the public interest. Each addition to the list, however justified on its own merits, would cast greater uncertainty on the public interest tasks that continue to be omitted. However, I can reassure universities and research groups carrying out legitimate medical research, that, in the Government’s view, such tasks are in the public interest for these purposes. I will come later to how we take this forward.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Clement-Jones]

My Lords, the Minister gave the impression that medical research of the type described by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, was encompassed, or allowable, by the GDPR. Can he give chapter and verse on where in the mixture of article 6 and article 9 that occurs? That would be extremely helpful. I understand that obviously the Minister was also agreeing to look further in case those articles did not cover the situation, but it would be good to know which articles he is referring to.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I re-emphasise to the noble Lord that we think these tasks are in the public interest. However, I understand his desire for even more clarity than that. It would be sensible if I wrote to him and to other noble Lords taking part in the debate. I want to make sure that I get the legal basis right rather than just doing it on the hoof, so I agree to write to him and to all noble Lords who have spoken tonight. Again, as I say, we will work towards what I hope will be a more acceptable solution for everyone. Fundamentally, we do not want to impede medical research that is for the public good.

[Baroness Manningham-Buller]

May I correct an impression that medical research does not seek consent? It seeks consent whenever possible, and extensively. However, there are categories where something else is needed. I would not want to leave the House with the impression that there is a substitute for that. In some circumstances we need an additional safeguard.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I believe also that even when consent is obtained, the worry is that it may not be subject to GDPR compliance, even if consent was acceptable before.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I think we have already made the point and we do not need to come back to it. What I took from the noble Lord’s earlier contribution was that one way in which medical research is developed and carried out involves a consent process, and we would not want to change anything in that sense. However, for lots of reasons—the noble Lord gave three or four—you cannot always use consent. You may not want to go to the patient, or perhaps you cannot go to or find the patient. Alternatively, the noble Lord made the more general point that you often collect data without any real sense of where it might go in the future. We are not saying that any of that is good, bad or indifferent—one is no better than the other—but they all need to be considered in a broader understanding of the public good being best served by having the least restrictive system concomitant with appropriate procedures being in place. That is the line, with the ethics committee sitting at the top, that gets you to the point where that would be a fruitful conversation to have with Ministers.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McNally (LD)]

My Lords, I associate myself with the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Howe. We are in Committee and it is a probing amendment. When we discussed it with colleagues the feeling was that 13 might be the right age but, as the noble Baroness indicated, it needs probing and some thinking about.

There is a danger, particularly in a House with our age group, that we assume these technologies are understood by the young—even the very young. We all hear anecdotes of parents or grandparents who have to consult their eight year-olds on how to make various gadgets work, but that misses the point. A frightening amount of information is being freely given. I mentioned at Second Reading that my generation and my parents’ generation had thoughts of personal privacy that my daughter and her contemporaries seem to have no thought of. They are very happy to exchange information about themselves, what they do and where they are with gay abandon.

When we get to the very young it is very important to make sure—we will discuss this in later amendments, if not tonight—that there is sufficient understanding and information to make informed choices, otherwise we get into very dangerous territory indeed. Therefore we are, not for the first time, in the noble Baroness’s debt for raising these questions. Late as it is, it is right that we put on record that these things, along with the amendments that will follow in the next couple of groupings, need to be taken as a whole before we make a final judgment as to the right age.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I echo the comments of the noble Lord, Lord McNally, to say we are grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Howe. I acknowledge, particularly after her Second Reading speech, that she has not immediately demanded that the age be put back up to 16, which I thought she might. She has produced an interesting amendment.

Amendment 16 would give the Information Commissioner the power to determine the age threshold at which children can consent to their data being processed by online information services. This would be based on consultation and evidence. While it is certainly a preferable proposal to a blanket increase to 16, I am afraid I still cannot agree.

First, the Information Commissioner’s role as an independent regulatory authority is to administer and enforce the application of data protection legislation. As part of that role the Commissioner provides advice to businesses, organisations and individuals on the proper implementation of the legislation and on their rights under that legislation, and provides redress for breaches of individuals’ personal data. It also has an advisory function in relation to Parliament, the Government and other institutions. By contrast, the question of affixing the age below which parental consent is required has much broader-ranging considerations and implications, including an important moral dimension. Requiring the Information Commissioner to be the one to answer it would place on the officeholder an extra demand for which the office is neither designed nor resourced.

Secondly, the GDPR specifies that it is member states that should make this important decision. It does not give the power for states to delegate this choice to another regulatory body. Therefore, this amendment would make the Bill as a whole non-compliant with the GDPR. It is for those reasons that the Government consider that the question should be decided by this House and the other place rather than by a regulatory body. I realise that, in saying that, we leave ourselves open to further discussions on this matter.

Data Protection Bill [HL]

Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts

Tuesday 24th October 2017 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

That it be an instruction to the Committee of the Whole House to which the Data Protection Bill [HL] has been committed that they consider the bill in the following order:

Clauses 1 to 9, Schedule 1, Clauses 10 to 14, Schedules 2 to 4, Clauses 15 and 16, Schedule 5, Clauses 17 to 20, Schedule 6, Clauses 21 to 28, Schedule 7, Clauses 29 to 33, Schedule 8, Clauses 34 to 84, Schedules 9 and 10, Clauses 85 to 110, Schedule 11, Clauses 111 and 112, Schedule 12, Clauses 113 and 114, Schedule 13, Clauses 115 and 116, Schedule 14, Clauses 117 to 147, Schedule 15, Clause 148, Schedule 16, Clauses 149 to 171, Schedule 17, Clauses 172 to 190, Schedule 18, Clauses 191 to 194, Title.

Motion agreed.

Telecommunications Infrastructure (Relief from Non-Domestic Rates) Bill

Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 24th October 2017 Grand Committee

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, I refer the Committee to my registered interests as a local councillor and a vice-president of the Local Government Association. I support Amendments 1, 5 and 11 in this group, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock. They highlight some real problems for communities—be they urban or rural—which suffer from poor connectivity, and there has been no real incentive to improve the situation for them by improving speeds. The amendments add the condition that, for the relief to apply, it has to be focused on areas within a local authority where the average broadband speed is 10 megabits per second or less. I think I am right when I say that about 93% of homes and businesses in the UK are able to receive superfast broadband, but it is the copper version. The Bill is generally welcomed.

The noble Baroness is right to focus her amendments on areas with poor connectivity. There is a good argument for this as reliefs provide an incentive to do something that a business might otherwise not want to or be keen to do. The view may be taken that it is not economically beneficial, or something else could be more beneficial. The noble Baroness raises the important issue of how to ensure that those parts of England and Wales, urban and rural, which suffer from poor connectivity can benefit from the relief provided to companies. Otherwise, such areas run the risk of falling further behind. We can all agree that the benefits that fibre can bring could be enormous for all parts of the UK.

Can the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, respond to the concern expressed by the noble Baroness, as we do not want to see parts of the country falling further behind? How can we ensure that this relief, welcome though it is, actually benefits those areas with the worst connectivity?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Bourne has left this one to me. I thank the noble Baroness and the noble Lord for their contributions. I realise the point that some of these issues raise. I will make some general comments on the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, and then come to the substance of the amendment.

The noble Baroness referred to billion-dollar companies—I presume she meant BT. The relief applies to all companies, large or small, because fibre-optic cable is the way of the future. We regard laying fibre-optic cable as a good thing, regardless of where it is and who lays it, so we leave it up to the market. This Bill is a fairly blunt instrument—merely an enabling measure; it was announced by the Chancellor and it is merely to allow the relief to take place. On the very understandable issue of where it should be directed, we have carried out a number of measures to effect that. We understand the issue about rural and hard-to-reach areas—and, indeed, some of the areas in our cities that do not have adequate broadband. The specific amendments do not necessarily address the broad thrust of some of the remarks made by noble Lords, and I will explain why we do not think the amendments are particularly helpful. They would mean that the reliefs provided for in the Bill on new fibre applied only to those areas that currently receive an average speed of less than 10 megabits per second. They would undermine a fundamental part of what we seek to achieve through the Bill. We want to ensure that businesses and households throughout the country, including rural areas and cities, have access to faster broadband. In fact, by the end of this year, 19 out of 20 premises will have access to superfast broadband.

The universal service obligation will provide a digital safety net by giving everyone in the country the legal right to request a connection to broadband speeds of at least 10 megabits per second by 2020. As noble Lords will know, we are also considering a voluntary proposal from BT in that respect. I stress that the 10 megabits per second is a safety net; we want as many people as possible to have access to superfast broadband or better, which is why we have set a target of 95% superfast coverage by the end of 2017, which will continue to be extended beyond that to at least 97% of premises.

We have delivered a series of measures to ensure that all areas can and do have access to the broadband speeds that they need. For example, Defra has just made available £30 million of funding under the rural development programme for England, targeted at supporting rural businesses and growth for broadband services in those areas with speeds of 30 megabits per second or faster where that is not currently available or planned. In the 2016 Autumn Statement, the Government announced more than £1 billion to support digital infrastructure, targeted at supporting the rollout of full fibre connections for future 5G communications. The first wave of projects for our local full fibre networks programme has been launched, and includes a mixture of urban and rural areas. We are soon to launch a challenge fund for local bodies to bid for access to £200 million, with all parts of the UK free to participate, and we anticipate a significant number of applications from predominantly rural areas. We think that those projects will encourage further commercial interventions to build and extend fibre networks.

We support better broadband in all areas, but we believe that the amendment would limit the rate relief to only those local authority areas with an average of less than 10 megabits per second, which would damage the rollout of faster broadband across the UK. First, it would mean that much of the new fibre to be installed to the premises—FTTP—would be excluded from the relief. To deliver a network that is fit for the future, we need more fibre everywhere, including in areas that currently get more than 10 megabits. This amendment could deter significant investment and have the perverse result that less full fibre—the gold standard of broadband technology—was actually deployed.

Secondly, the amendment would exclude from the rate relief new fibre in those villages and rural areas that do not currently have high-speed broadband but happen to fall within a local authority area which does on average have high speed broadband. It would mean excluding from the relief whole areas where support is needed and where the measures provided for in the Bill would make a difference. At the moment, less than 3% of premises across the UK receives under 10 megabits per second, so the amendment potentially excludes up to 97% of premises from the relief.

Therefore, I hope that the Committee will recognise that the amendments should not be included in the Bill. However, we agree that improving broadband in those areas with less than 10 megabits is a priority, which is why we have put in place the universal service obligation. The new fibre rate relief as proposed through the Bill will support that objective. I hope that, with this in mind, the noble Baroness will withdraw her amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Pinnock]

My Lords, obviously I support Amendments 4, 8 and 13 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, which draw attention to the issues that he has just spoken about. Amendment 15 in my name asks for an impact study after 12 months to see how effective the provision is. In this instance, there have been difficulties that I have struggled with, as with the earlier amendment proposing a local authority boundary for an assessment of an average 10 megabits per second.

In Amendment 15, I have used “rural” as an accepted definition of areas which, on the whole, have poor broadband connectivity. If this was accepted by the Government, obviously it could be extended to all parts of the country. I am focusing again on the need for the Bill to use public funds effectively, by targeting their impact where they can make the most significant difference. Subsection (2)(c) of my proposed new clause refers to mobile phone connectivity. This relates to the fact that until we get 5G coverage, which I believe will be in 2020—it could be a year or two later—connectivity will depend on fibre-optic cables going as far as the mobile phone masts. This will have a big impact on those many families who cannot afford broadband but rely on mobile phones for their connectivity everywhere. They rely on them for accessing public services, which are now digital by default. If they can, they also make job applications via their phones, rather than having broadband to the house. That is why I raise these issues today.

The fundamental part of the amendment is to have a pause or period in which the Government assess the impact of this rate relief and ask: is it doing what we hope it will do? Can we improve the quality of mobile phone coverage by ensuring that some of the fibre-optic cable that is laid goes to mobile phone masts, in preparation for 5G coverage?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords for laying out their amendments clearly. As the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, said, these amendments are very much linked to the last group on which I answered—the first group today.

Amendment 4, which was moved by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, seeks to ensure that there is a requirement for recipients of the relief to,

“give due consideration … to rural and hard to reach areas”.

In a similar vein, the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, proposes an amendment to require a report on the impact of these measures on rural connectivity. Although I might support the spirit of these apparently reasonable amendments, I do not believe that they are necessary. I share the concerns of many noble Lords that rural and remote areas should not be left behind in the drive to improve and extend high-quality broadband connectivity. I declare an interest: I live in a rural area and am absolutely aware of the problems to which noble Lords have alluded.

The relief provided for in the Bill is available across England and Wales. No area is excluded or exempted, and we have engaged with the Welsh Government to support the application of the measure in Wales. Providers deploying fibre connectivity in the countryside will receive the same rates relief as those deploying in the hearts of our great cities. That is important because the problems of slow speeds are the same, regardless of where the household is located. When we talk about social deprivation, for example, it is still a problem in an inner city as well as a rural area.

Providers are free to deliver connectivity wherever the market allows. However, to ensure that people living and working in rural and remote areas can and do have access to the broadband speeds that they need, the Government have delivered a series of measures, which I mentioned in my previous answer—but I shall remind noble Lords of them just briefly. There is the superfast rollout programme, which is worth about £1.7 billion of public money. We are currently consulting on the broadband universal service obligation, which will apply across the United Kingdom, with at least 10 megabits per second. Then there is the local full fibre networks programme, worth £200 million, and the rural development programme for England at £30 million for broadband. Those measures have been a great success, with 45% of households with superfast in 2010 rising to 95% by the end of this year.

It is clear that the relief will be alongside a package of measures put in place by the Government to help spread to those living and working in rural and remote areas the benefits of economic growth and access to services that better broadband connectivity will bring. Together, they will also lay the foundations needed for the next generation of mobile technology, known as 5G, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, referred.

The noble Baroness’s proposed new clause in Amendment 15 would require a report on the impact of the measure on rural connectivity. I support the outcome—that is, an understanding of the impact of Government’s action in this area—but my concern is that requiring a report on the impact on rural connectivity may have an adverse effect. Telecoms networks take time to plan and build, and investors rely on certainty. A report on the relief after 12 months is premature, given the time taken to deploy networks. My noble friend Lord Bourne will cover reporting arrangements in greater detail later, but my concern is that if the Government are required to report so soon, it could create uncertainty over whether the relief will continue, and lead to unintended consequences.

On subsection (2)(c) of the noble Baroness’s proposed new clause, on mobile coverage, I note that the main benefit of the measure to mobile will be in aiding the deployment of 5G. It will take longer than 12 months for the next generation of mobile technology to appear; we do not quite know what it is yet.

Of course, we will monitor the effectiveness of the scheme in providing new fibre, which will include rural areas, but we need to allow the sector appropriate time to build networks in all areas. Ofcom reports on infrastructure deployment every year, and we should see the impact of all the Government’s measures in this field in due course. In view of those explanations, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

The Minister made the point, with regard to the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, that 12 months may be too soon. After what period of time does he think a report would be useful? Would it be 12 months, 24 months or 36 months?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

Ofcom reports every year, so I do not think it would matter whether it is 12 months or 24. My point was specifically on mobile coverage for which the 12 months would not be appropriate, because 5G has not really been invented yet, so there certainly will not be any visible signs on mobile coverage. Essentially, we are saying that we want fibre-optic cable to be laid over all areas of the country to improve future mobile reception and also fibre to the premises, which is what the future gold standard is. We need it everywhere, not just in rural areas. While we accept that rural and hard-to-reach areas have a problem, I have laid down a series of other measures to deal with those areas specifically.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

I thank the Minister for that response and for his response to my other question. I am happy at this stage to withdraw my amendment.

Battle of Passchendaele

Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts

Thursday 19th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, I start by saying how grateful I am to my noble friend Lord Black for initiating this debate and to all noble Lords, both for making such moving speeches and for their kind words about the commemorations so far. Being the Minister responsible for the First World War commemorations is an honour, a great responsibility and, frankly, having listened to your Lordships’ speeches, rather humbling. I am also humbled because how does one sum up in 20 minutes speeches that have covered, in typical House of Lords fashion, subjects as varied as life and death, the meaning of life, art, the Royal Flying Corps, comradeship, mental health, the meaning of memory, fake news, the nature of sacrifice, the role of animals, the debate over military tactics, links to the Europe of today and, inevitably, Brexit?

Let me concentrate on what we have done to commemorate the third Battle of Ypres and how the First World War commemorations have extended across the country, with a little about 2018. As noble Lords have explained, the Battle of Passchendaele and the whole third Battle of Ypres is hugely significant: significant for the huge losses sustained, the horrific conditions and the lessons learned; significant in the context of the wider war, in trying to break the stalemate and increase attritional pressure on Germany and in regard to the U-boat threat outlined by the noble Lord, Lord West; significant for the impact at home on families that lost husbands, brothers, sons, and some daughters and sisters; and significant for the way the country was galvanised and reorganised to support those at the Front. Those losses affected communities across the country and across the world, and I hope noble Lords will agree that that has been commemorated appropriately by the Government.

The three months of fighting around Ypres in 1917, that would come to be known colloquially as Passchendaele, were marked by a series of events delivered by the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport and its partners. The events were attended by their Royal Highnesses the Prince of Wales and the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge, their Majesties the King and Queen of the Belgians, and the Prime Minister, as well as thousands of descendants and members of the public.

The event on 30 July in Ypres, at the Commonwealth War Graves Commission’s Menin Gate, took place in the presence of 200 descendants of those commemorated on the gate, and built on the poignant service held there every night by the Last Post Association. It provided an opportunity for reflection and remembrance beneath the memorial, which records more than 54,000 soldiers who died before 16 August 1917 and have no known grave. That was followed by a public event in the Ypres market square, attended by thousands of members of the public and watched by some 1.5 million people at home in the UK. With performances by well-known actors, musicians, military personnel and the National Youth Choir of Scotland, it made the most of our artistic talent to pay tribute to those who passed through Ypres before us, many never to return. Of course, those losses were not just during the battle; in the days before the battle began, on average 500 men a day were killed by shelling alone.

The next day, a formal commemorative event at the Commonwealth War Graves Commission’s Tyne Cot cemetery focused on the third Battle of Ypres. Some 4,000 descendants of those who served at Ypres were present and another 1.3 million people watched live on the BBC in the UK. Those of us who were privileged to be there would, I think, also like to echo the comments of my noble friend Lord Black and the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, on the excellent work of the commission in maintaining those sites in perpetuity, in such a dignified way, and record our appreciation for the commission’s support in delivering the events. It was also particularly appropriate that, on the evening of the Menin Gate event, the chairman of the Last Post Association, Monsieur Benoit Mottrie, was awarded an honorary OBE in the Cloth Hall in Ypres by the Duke of Cambridge for,

“services to commemoration and remembrance of British and Commonwealth armed forces”,

recognising his huge contribution and that of the Last Post Association.

The events also saw the participation of nearly 100 National Citizen Service volunteers and participants in the Commonwealth War Graves Commission’s centenary intern scheme. They supported the delivery of events and were a visible presence throughout, interacting with descendants and families, from whom I heard many appreciative comments. They exemplified the theme of youth, to which I will come in a minute.

The events delivered huge media interest in print, online and on social media, reaching a broader audience than any of our previous events. The #Passchendaele100 hashtag reached 122 million potential impressions, engaging many people who had not previously connected with the centenary programme.

My noble friend Lord Black mentioned the impact on the Commonwealth. Australia and New Zealand have also recently delivered their own commemorative events in Ypres to mark their own significant dates. I understand Canada, whose troops finally took Passchendaele itself, will do so in November.

Throughout the centenary programme we have tried to reflect three themes: remembrance, youth and education. We believe the events ensured that the centenary was marked as widely as possible and that a new generation came to understand what Passchendaele means. This will also ensure that, as a nation, we appropriately commemorate the centenaries of 2018, which we will mark with a series of events. These include events to mark the appointment of Marshal Foch as commander-in-chief of the Allied armies in March, the centenary of the Battle of Amiens in August, and of course the Armistice on 11 November, which, suitably, next year falls on Remembrance Sunday.

There is also a wider government-led programme to help communities across the country to engage with the centenary. Historic England, working in partnership with the War Memorials Trust, Civic Voice and the Imperial War Museum, is helping communities rediscover, care for and conserve local war memorials. Funding is available for repair and conservation, and more than 300 projects have already shared £1.3 million of grants through the War Memorials Trust. There are also many projects taking place across the country funded by the Heritage Lottery Fund. I pay tribute to the work with the Heritage Lottery Fund of the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, and thank her for explaining that. Since April 2010, the fund has awarded more than £90 million to more than 1,800 projects. Grants of between £3,000 and £10,000 for community projects are available via the Heritage Lottery Fund’s “Then and Now” programme. Applications will be accepted at any time up to 2019.

As my noble friend Lord Black mentioned, the Imperial War Museum’s Centenary Partnership programme, which now has more than 3,700 members from over 60 countries, helps to deliver a vibrant programme of events, activities and resources to enable millions of people to engage with the centenary. The Imperial War Museum also announced yesterday its “Women’s Work 100” programme, which will develop projects, collections and stories across the Centenary Partnership to explore the working lives of women during the First World War, including the very brave women who worked as nurses, very much on the front line. The women’s work collection is closely linked with the formation of the museum itself in 1917, and almost immediately plans were put in place to ensure that the role of women would be recognised and recorded. The centenary is a fitting opportunity to revisit the collection and highlight the enormous changes that occurred during the war.

For many people, an abiding memory of the Somme commemorations was 14-18 NOW’s “We’re Here Because We’re Here” project, which saw uniformed actors take to the streets of the UK. Its full plans for 2018 will be released early in the new year. So far its programmes have been experienced by 30 million people, of whom 4 million are aged under 16. The poppies sculptures, of which I know my noble friend Lord Black has been a great supporter, will also continue their tour of the country in 2018, having been to Derby, Belfast, Hull and Cardiff so far this year. Yesterday, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State announced that the poppies will appear at Hereford Cathedral, Carlisle Castle, Middleport Pottery in Stoke-on-Trent, the Imperial War Museum in London, Fort Nelson near Portsmouth and the Imperial War Museum North in Manchester in 2018.

As has been mentioned, the first day of the battle saw the most Victoria Crosses awarded on a single day during the First World War, including Army doctor Noel Chavasse’s posthumous bar to the VC that he had won on the Somme. I am pleased to say that the VCs of the First World War are being marked by the DCLG’s Victoria Cross commemorative paving stone project, which commemorates each Victoria Cross recipient by laying a memorial paving stone in their place of birth. Two Passchendaele VC winners, Captain Thomas Colyer-Fergusson and Second Lieutenant Dennis Wyldbore Hewitt, who were both born in Westminster, have been commemorated with paving stones in Victoria Embankment Gardens. They were also commemorated with the “Mud Soldier” statue displayed in Trafalgar Square in July by VisitFlanders.

More than 1,400 schools have visited the First World War battlefields as part of the Department for Education-led tour programme. The Great War Debate programme has seen 13 debates take place nationwide, with more than 1,200 young people having the opportunity to hear high-profile historians, including Sir Hew Strachan and Professor Annika Mombauer, bring a fresh perspective to their studies. The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, asked how we could be sure what happened and suggested that the events should be multidimensional to address the subject in different ways. He might like to know that there is a four-day academic seminar on the Home Front led by Sir Hew Strachan. I hope that all the other events that I have described will achieve the multidimensional approach that we seek.

In conclusion, I pay tribute to the team at DDCMS who have worked so hard to deliver the commemoration—I was grateful for the kind words of the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, about them; to the First World War advisory group, of which the noble Lord is a member; and to the work of the Prime Minister’s special representative for the First World War commemoration, Dr Andrew Murrison MP. Thanks to them and all our other delivery partners, I am confident that as we move to the final year of the centenary we will build on the achievements of the previous years and ensure we mark the tumultuous final months of the war in a fitting way. We owe it to those who served, fell or were wounded, in body or mind, to continue to ensure that they are remembered with admiration and gratitude.

Brexit: Creative Industries

Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts

Wednesday 18th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, the creative industries are one of the UK’s greatest success stories, contributing more than £87 billion to the economy and around £20 billion in exports. The Government have been working closely with the creative industries to understand the impacts and opportunities presented by our decision to leave the EU, as well as working with them on an early sector deal, as part of the industrial strategy, to secure the sector’s continued prosperity and growth.

[Baroness Quin (Lab)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my specific interest in the register, although my Question relates to the creative industries more generally, which, as the Minister has acknowledged, have been a very successful area of our economy. I believe they have been the economy’s fastest-growing sector in recent years. Is the Minister aware of just how successful and influential the sector has been in formulating European policy, and how concerned it therefore is about a loss of influence in future, as well as some of the specific issues concerning market access, content and country origin, and of course funding? Will he assure us that these industries will be able to participate in those European policies and programmes that have been so successful in bringing jobs and opportunities to the United Kingdom?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I absolutely agree with the noble Baroness that the creative industries have been not only European leaders but world leaders. As far as Europe is concerned, we absolutely want them to go on contributing in that way. That will be part of the negotiations. We want them to continue to be part of things such as the European creative fund. With regard to other EU funds, if various industries apply for grants the Chancellor has agreed to guarantee to continue paying those after we leave, until the project’s expiration.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, for many working in the creative industries the most pressing concern is whether they will be able to travel to other countries in Europe at short notice to work. Some UK musicians travel within Europe more than 40 times a year. Surely in that and many other instances—the Minister will be aware that the advertising industry raised this concern yesterday—the implementation of visas will be unrealistic and detrimental to the sector.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The noble Earl makes a good point and we are only too well aware of it. One of my department’s roles is to make sure that the aspects raised by the creative industries are known throughout government, in particular to the Department for Exiting the EU and the Home Office. My department is working closely with the Home Office and the Migration Advisory Committee.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I declare an interest by way of my family involvement with the creative industries. May I pursue the thread of the previous question? The richness of the performing industries comes from their diversity—one thinks particularly of music—and the wealth and range of talent that has been brought over to the countries of these islands from continental Europe. Is there not a danger that those who live in the other 27 member states will perceive that there is a barrier to coming here and stop coming, which would impoverish the cultural scene in these islands?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

If they perceive that, there is that danger, so we must work very hard to make sure that that perception does not exist.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, while acknowledging and agreeing with everything that has been said and welcoming the tone of my noble friend’s responses, will he also recognise the enormous importance of collaboration and co-operation between the great museums and galleries of Europe? That has been responsible, among other things, for bringing some of the finest exhibitions not only to London but throughout Europe. It would impoverish us all and the generations after if there was an impediment to that.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I agree with my noble friend. Collaboration in the cultural scene applies not only to Europe but to other countries in the world. We want to make sure that that collaboration continues and is improved. I mentioned Creative Europe. It is important as a fund not only for the relatively small amount of money that we have received but because it is a totemic fund that encourages partnership and enables us to take a lead role in that.

[Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury (LD)]

My Lords, I know that the Minister agrees that skills are key to the continued success of our creative industries, even more so now with the uncertainty of Brexit. Does he agree with the finding in Sir Peter Bazalgette’s recent review of the creative industries that it is imperative that the Government commit to designing the education and skills framework to support the sector? Will the Government look again at the proposed reforms to the EBacc and introduce a creative subject?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

On the first part of the question, we welcome Sir Peter Bazalgette’s report. The Creative Industries Council is looking at it and will take it into account when it produces its proposals for an early sector deal. Education is outside the remit of DCMS, but I am sure the noble Baroness’s point will have been noted by that department.

[Lord Cashman (Lab)]

My Lords, I refer noble Lords to my interests as set out in the register. May I point out the negative consequences of a reduction in freedom of movement for the pool of talent coming into and out of the United Kingdom, not least in the performing industries? Therefore, will the Minister make certain that the talent unions, such as the Writers’ Guild of Great Britain, Equity and the Musicians’ Union, producers and others are part of the consultation group that meets the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport to iron out the problems that they foresee on the road to Brexit?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

We have had many conversations with subsectors in the creative industries, and we are certainly open to more. We know that access to talent and skills is a key concern for the creative industries. That is why we are working closely with the Home Office and the Migration Advisory Committee, through its consultation, to feed in the concerns and demands of the sector.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend accept what this Government and previous Governments have done to support creative industries through tax relief, from which Screen Yorkshire and the UK film industry have benefited? Will he use his good offices to ensure that these tax reliefs continue? I should declare my interest as I was a shadow Minister campaigning for these tax reliefs and subsequently benefited from them.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I certainly accept the remarks of my noble friend. For example, since film tax relief was introduced in 2007, 2,070 films have been made accounting for £8.9 billion of UK expenditure. Only recently, we introduced tax relief for children’s television programmes and theatre tax relief, and we hope to continue to do so.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

The Minister mentioned the Bazalgette report, commissioned by the former chairman of the Arts Council, which we welcome. It is a wide-ranging view of what needs to be done in the creative industries to make sure they are a success. As a former Treasury Minister, the Minister might be interested in two or three of the points which play to his strengths, I am sure. Will he advise us of where we are on the review looking at whether the current HMT definition of R&D tax credits captures legitimate R&D activity in the creative industries, which goes back to the film tax point that has just been made? Will he also explain why the creative industries fail to get virtually anything from Innovate UK funding? Currently only 2% goes to the creative industries.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The Creative Industries Council is reviewing the suggestions in the Bazalgette review, which we commissioned. There are many of these, the most important being the proposal for creative clusters. The council expects to come back to the department with its proposals by the end of the year. I am not sure why Innovate UK supplies only 2%. Nevertheless, as the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, said, the creative industries have been a tremendous success story and are growing at one and half times the rate of the rest of the economy.

Channel 4: Privatisation (Communications Committee Report)

Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts

Tuesday 17th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Best, and his committee for all their work on this subject, and to all noble Lords for their interesting contributions today. I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, who has just spoken in his first outing on DCMS. I congratulate him on his speech and look forward to many further contributions from him on DCMS subjects in future.

I also thank noble Lords who approve of the Government’s actions on this matter, a somewhat rare and pleasant experience for a member of the Government. Clearly things have moved on somewhat since the committee’s report was published last summer, but the issues raised remain vital in ensuring a successful future for one of the UK’s most important cultural assets. I am therefore very pleased to be here today and to have the opportunity to listen to noble Lords’ views and set out the Government’s position.

Channel 4 is an important part of the UK’s broadcasting landscape, as the noble Lord, Lord Best, laid out clearly at the beginning of the debate. Commercially funded yet publicly owned, and operating as a “publisher-broadcaster”, it has a unique role in providing for audiences and stimulating the wider creative industries. Channel 4’s remit includes requirements to be distinctive, to innovate, to promote alternative views and new perspectives and to appeal to a culturally diverse society. In the 35 years since it was launched, it has made an indelible mark on UK culture and society. The noble Lord, Lord Best, and my noble friends Lord Sherbourne and Lord Holmes mentioned the Paralympics as an example of landmark programming.

Yet the channel faces challenges from what is a very fast-changing broadcasting landscape, particularly given its reliance on advertising revenues, a challenge highlighted by developments in the advertising market over the last year or so. Channel 4 is a public asset. It is therefore entirely sensible for the Government to consider from time to time how best to secure its future, including whether it would be better placed to succeed under private ownership. As noble Lords will be aware, the Government set out earlier this year that Channel 4 will remain publicly owned. I know this was welcomed by members of your Lordships’ Communications Committee, as confirmed today by the noble Lord, Lord Best. I reaffirm today the Government’s commitment to a publicly owned future for Channel 4. I hope that will partially reassure—temporarily, at least—the noble Lord, Lord Birt.

As a publicly owned broadcaster, though, Channel 4 must deliver value for the public who own it. That value can come in different forms, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, pointed out, both on screen and off. Off-screen, Channel 4 has delivered value through its pivotal role in the development of the UK’s independent production sector. The sector is now world-renowned, generating £3 billion of revenue each year. Channel 4 provides on-screen value by delivering the remit prescribed in legislation and in meeting the programming quotas set by Ofcom. My department’s written evidence to the committee’s inquiry set out that:

“The government regards C4C’s ability to deliver against its remit and maximise public value in a sustainable manner as a priority”.


Channel 4 has a strong record in many areas of its remit—as the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, says, in some areas it exceeds it—but there is room for improvement. The committee concluded, as the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chelmsford has reminded us today, that the current programming for older children and young adults is “unsatisfactory”, echoing concerns raised by Ofcom over recent years. We have made it clear that we expect a stronger commitment from Channel 4 in this area. We have also given Ofcom new powers through the Digital Economy Act to impose children’s content quotas if it deems that necessary. The provision of other areas of core public service content, such as arts programming, has also been low. More broadly, the Government have also made it clear that we want Channel 4 to deliver even more of the innovative and challenging public service programming that it was set up to offer. We look forward to seeing how the new chief executive and director of programmes take on this challenge.

Both on and off-screen, we believe Channel 4 must deliver value for the whole country that owns it. This means contributing to balanced economic growth, stimulating creative industries and serving audiences across the UK. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, for her support—albeit, I have to say, slightly geographically qualified—for this concept. PACT, the TV production trade body, has found that of the £2 billion budget for UK productions in 2016 just 32% was spent outside London. Similarly, only one-third of UK production-sector jobs are based outside London. As has been mentioned, only 3% of Channel 4’s staff are based outside London, and it spends around twice as much on programming made in London as in the rest of the UK combined. Furthermore, earlier this year Ofcom said it had concerns about Channel 4’s representation of people in the nations and regions.

We feel that decisions about Channel 4’s programming should not all be made in the bubble of Westminster. Very importantly, people seeking to work in the media should not feel that they have to move to London. This is a barrier not only to people from different regions but to people of less affluent financial backgrounds. This point was ably made by the noble Lord, Lord Storey.

The transformation of Salford’s MediaCity over the past decade, led by the BBC, is truly impressive. With more than 250 companies employing more than 7,000 people, it has become a world-class cluster. It demonstrates that the television sector in the UK does not have to be all about London, but I accept that the BBC and Channel 4 are not an exact parallel, and I would not claim them to be.

As a result, we launched a consultation earlier this year on how Channel 4 could increase its regional impact, primarily through moving staff and increasing commissioning. We published the results of this consultation last month. The overwhelming majority of respondents stated that Channel 4’s regional impact would be enhanced if more of its people and activities were located outside London. A significant majority further agreed that increasing Channel 4’s commissioning quotas, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, and my noble friend Lord Holmes, would be an appropriate and effective way to enhance Channel 4’s impact in the nations and regions. Alongside the consultation, we have commissioned external consultants to analyse the potential regional economic benefit and cost of relocation and increasing commissioning in the nations and regions. This will be published imminently, and we will see whether it addresses the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Gordon.

As the Secretary of State set out in her speech at the Royal Television Society last month:

“TV must reflect the real world and the country that we live in”.


Relocation may not mean relocation of the whole business, but the Government are clear that Channel 4 must have a major presence outside London. We are also very interested in the potential for Channel 4 to increase its commissioning in the nations and regions.

We look forward to working with Channel 4’s incoming chief executive, Alex Mahon, who is due to start at the beginning of next month. We await her plans for Channel 4, and will continue to work closely with the channel over the coming months. This will not be an overnight process, I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, but we hope to reach agreement with Channel 4 on the direction forward by the end of the year.

A couple of points were raised during the debate. I cannot let the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, about diversity on the board go unanswered. Last year, the Secretary of State approved the appointment of four individuals who met the job descriptions of the post, which was advertised by Ofcom, out of the five put forward by Ofcom, so it was very much in answer to the specific job descriptions that they were selected. Ofcom is currently undertaking a process to recruit three new non-executives to the Channel 4 board, and I am confident that it will make every effort to ensure a diverse field of candidates.

The noble Baroness, Lady Quin, made the very reasonable point that we cannot expect Channel 4 to solve the regional deficit on its own. We agree, and we do not think that there is a direct comparison with the BBC, but it is true that more than half the BBC’s public service staff are outside London, whereas 97% of Channel 4’s staff are in London. We feel that, as a publicly owned broadcaster, it must do more for the whole country.

In conclusion, Channel 4 is a vital public asset, it is one that we support, and it will remain so. In continuing under public ownership, the Government are clear that Channel 4 must play its part in a country that works for everyone. It should strengthen the creative industries that are such a successful part of our economy and provide a platform for new voices and untold stories from across the UK, celebrating the diversity mentioned by the right reverend Prelate.

I again thank the committee for its work on this important matter, and I look forward to returning to discuss progress on these issues in due course.

Smoking: Broadcasting Code

Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts

Wednesday 11th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Storey]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they plan to strengthen the broadcasting code in relation to smoking on reality TV shows, particularly those aimed at young people.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde)]

My Lords, as the independent regulator, decisions on amending the Broadcasting Code are rightly a matter for Ofcom. Ofcom takes the protection of children and young people very seriously, and that is why there are already specific restrictions on the portrayal of smoking on television.

[Lord Storey (LD)]

I thank the Minister for his reply. I do not know whether he is a regular watcher of “Love Island”, but the ITV website describes that programme as an,

“emotional feast of lust and passion in the sun”.

The same website says that the programme captures,

“56% share of 16-34 viewers”.

On this programme, those contestants are regularly smoking. What message does that send to young people—that I can live a glamorous life if I smoke as well? I am surprised that the Ofcom Broadcasting Code says that smoking must not be,

“glamorised in … programmes likely to be widely seen, heard or accessed by under-eighteens unless there is editorial justification”.

Does the Minister think that Ofcom should take action on this matter?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I am not a regular watcher of “Love Island”, but I cannot help noticing that the House is unusually full today. Obviously, as I said, it is a matter for Ofcom. The Broadcasting Code is there to be regulated by Ofcom, and that is what Ofcom is there for. Any complaints about a programme will be investigated by Ofcom, and it is up to anyone who has concerns about smoking in this programme to complain to Ofcom. Incidentally, to put this into perspective, Ofcom had just under 15,000 complaints last year and 75 related to smoking on “Love Island”.