European Forest Institute (Immunities and Privileges) Order 2024

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Wednesday 20th November 2024 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington]

That the draft Order laid before the House on 15 May be approved.

Considered in Grand Committee on 13 November.

Motion agreed.

Chagos Islands

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Thursday 14th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, the new Government were suspiciously quick to conclude the deal, within weeks of taking office, with the Mauritian Government, represented as they were by a close legal friend of the Prime Minister. They now seem strangely reluctant to allow anyone to see the actual text of this handover. Since then, of course, we have had two important elections, so can the Minister confirm what discussions the Government have had with the new US Administration and with the new Mauritian Government? Is this not a case of negotiating with the wrong people at the wrong time?

Today, the Chagossian Voices group sent a letter, signed by 200 Chagossians, to the Foreign Secretary, again confirming that no Minister has ever responded to its previous letters. Can the Minister confirm whether there are any plans to engage with Chagossians in these negotiations? Can she explain why no Chagossians have been consulted so far? The vast majority of Chagossians deeply resent their homeland being handed over on a subsidised plate to Mauritius, a country 1,000 miles away. Lastly, does the Minister think there are adequate safeguards in this treaty—which, of course, we have not yet seen—to allow the lease of Diego Garcia to be extended beyond its current 99 years?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, said, there have been changes of Government in the US and Mauritius. I take this opportunity to congratulate both President-elect Trump and the new Prime Minister, Dr Ramgoolam, in Mauritius, on their election victories. Changes of Government are an inevitable part of negotiations with fellow democracies. We have also had a change of Government in this country since these negotiations began. This is the conclusion of a few years’ worth of negotiation—11 to 13 rounds of negotiation took place under the previous Government. We were aware that this could happen, and we are working closely with our allies, in both the US and Mauritius, on making sure that everyone is comfortable with the deal and the treaty. We have no reason to think that this is not the case at this stage.

On engagement with Chagossians, it was not possible for them to be party to these negotiations because they took place between Governments. I regret what happened to the Chagossians in the past—it was over 50 years ago, but that in no way diminishes the pain and hurt that they will have experienced. I accept that Chagossians will be concerned about the arrangements reached. We have prioritised the security of the US-UK military facility on Diego Garcia. People can disagree with that and can say that prioritising security was the wrong thing to do, but that is what the Government have chosen on behalf of the people of the United Kingdom, because we think that was in the best interests of the UK. There are arrangements in the deal to allow Chagossians to visit and return, and some Chagossians will be able to take advantage of that.

The treaty will be published as soon as it has been finalised with the Mauritian Government, and there will be a process for Members of this House and the Commons to debate it.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

Given that there was no public information from the previous Government—of whom the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, was a member—about any of the 11 rounds of negotiations that took place, does the Minister agree that two points of principle should be adhered to now? First, for the treaty approval process, nothing should be done on behalf of the Chagossians without their involvement, and Parliament should have an ability to vote on the treaty proactively, rather than the limited process under the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act. Secondly, unlike what Nigel Farage or Kemi Badenoch might suggest, British foreign policy should be formed and set by us, not Donald Trump.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My understanding is that the process will be the usual one for agreeing these treaties. We need to be careful about the use of the word “consultation”, because there will be an opportunity to listen to the views of Chagossian communities and to understand that there is more than one view among them about this deal. It would be wrong to give the impression that there would be an opportunity to have a treaty changed in light of Chagossian voices. We can all have a view on that, and some of us might wish that it could be otherwise, but when we are dealing with a matter of security like this in the Indian Ocean, and with a treaty between two Governments, it is far better if we are up front and honest about what will be possible during that process.

[Baroness Whitaker (Lab)]

My Lords, is this not something of a trumped-up objection on the part of the Opposition? Does my noble friend agree that the previous Government never questioned the legitimacy of Mauritius’s eventual sovereignty over the Chagos Islands, very many years ago and internationally confirmed? Does she further agree that the majority of Chagossians do agree with this, and that all Chagossians are now being consulted by the Government? But can she say whether our Government are also discussing the resettlement plans with Mauritius?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

What is important is that Chagossians have the right to visit and return that the Mauritian Government will be free to enable. This is new, and some Chagossians have said that they wish to see this. It will now be possible under this deal. On the record of the previous Government, it is not for me to say whether the outrage is faux—others will judge. But I will say that I regret very much the implication by some on the Opposition Benches—by no means all, and I do not point the finger at the noble Lord, Lord Callanan—to attempt to co-opt other overseas territories into this, and to somehow suggest that there is a vulnerability there, which there is not. This is a unique situation, and I am glad that we have been able to move this forward and resolve it. It secures our base in the Indian Ocean and gives certainty on that and to Chagossian communities here.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, as the noble Baroness’s brief will probably be telling her, the Chinese are taking an immensely close interest in what is happening in the Chagos Islands and Mauritius. Can she reassure us that the Foreign Office has a clear focus on how the Chinese are playing this situation and what they are up to generally, in the Chagos Islands and in many other islands and coastal states of the Commonwealth, where they are involving themselves increasingly closely?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We consider this issue closely. I draw noble Lords’ attention to the fact that Mauritius is a close ally of ours and of India, and it does not take part in the Chinese belt and road initiative. It is our view that the stable, secure and long-term arrangement we now have protects the Chagos Islands from any interest from any other parties that we would not wish to see.

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

As a Minister of State who dealt with this matter a quarter of a century ago, I applaud the Government for reaching an agreement. Does the Minister agree that if the treaty were somehow derailed by some of its critics, surely the losers would be not just our country but the United States, Mauritius, the Chagossians themselves, the United Nations General Assembly, the Commonwealth, the African Union and international law?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

It is hard to believe that it was 25 years ago. We are confident about this treaty and the fact that it secures our presence in the Indian Ocean. We accept that when there is a change of Government questions are raised and it is right that new Governments will want to cast their own eyes over the deal that has been done. We respect that and will co-operate, but we are confident that we can answer any concerns that may exist, because we think this is the right thing for us, for Mauritius and for the Chagos Islands, in securing our security.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, will the Minister accept my welcome for what she said—that this treaty, when it has been concluded, will be brought to both Houses? If it involves the International Agreements Committee, on which I have the honour to serve, will she undertake that the committee will be given sufficient time to take proper evidence on the treaty before it?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

That would be very helpful indeed. My experience is that the more people find out about the treaty and the deal that has been done, the more likely that some of the concerns they will naturally have—we welcome questions and scrutiny on this—can be answered fully. I am not responsible for the scheduling and timing, but I am sure my noble friend the Chief Whip has heard what the noble Lord said.

BBC World Service

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Thursday 14th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, the BBC World Service provides impartial, accurate news and journalism in 42 languages to 320 million people globally. It remains the world’s most trusted international news broadcaster. The Government recognise the World Service’s value as a soft power asset and its contribution to countering disinformation and ensuring access to free and impartial news. We value the emergency response services stood up recently in Gaza, Ukraine and Sudan to provide vital safety and security information.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that Answer. It is welcome that the Government have improved funding of the BBC World Service in the coming financial year, but is the Minister aware that in the past, cuts in the World Service have led to frequencies being withdrawn and immediately being taken over by the Russians and the Chinese in order to push out their propaganda? Surely, the BBC World Service is source of great strength to this country. Could we not have a long-term funding arrangement to secure what is, after all, one of Britain’s greatest assets?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I agree with my noble friend. Although decisions about where to operate and what channels to use are clearly for the BBC to make—it is independent of government in that way—it is a service that we have insufficiently valued and promoted over the years. I am pleased that we have been able to improve the situation somewhat so far, but I completely agree with my noble friend that a long-term solution is what is really needed.

[The Earl of Courtown (Con)]

My Lords, in her Answer to the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, the Minister mentioned the issue of disinformation, which is of prime importance and obviously a threat to democracy around the world. What steps is she taking further to promote the BBC World Service as a trusted source of information?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, that is a very good question. At the moment, 75% of those who listen to the World Service live in places that do not have good levels of media freedom, so we need to work with the World Service to promote what it does, both around the world, as the noble Lord says, and here in the UK. I think more people would benefit from and feel pride in knowing what the World Service has done to counter disinformation around the world.

[Lord Birt (CB)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a former director-general of the BBC. For nearly a century, the BBC World Service has been a key element of the UK’s soft power globally. For almost all of that time it was directly and completely funded by the FCO. Can the Minister articulate any justification at all for the World Service being funded in whole or in part by the UK licence fee payer?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

That is not a decision that this Government made. Looking back, it was a mistake to put that burden entirely on the licence fee payer. We are looking at long-term solutions and we are open-minded about what they might be, but I repeat: the important thing is that we preserve all that is good that the World Service does for us around the world, but it needs to be on a much more secure footing so that we do not have the annual discussions we have had to have. It needs to plan, and it needs security to enable it to continue to do the amazing work it does.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

My Lords, there is a tension here between having an independent BBC, which we are all grateful for—indeed, that is part of its integrity—and it being part of our strategic soft power. Could the noble Baroness tell us a little bit more about the strategic approach His Majesty’s Government are taking to thinking about the key places we need to engage with, not least in countering the deliberate disinformation coming from China and Russia, which is fundamental to the future of our democracies?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

It is vital that we maintain the independent position the BBC has, so that it makes its own decisions. However, this Government want to refresh the approach to soft power. We are establishing a soft power council, in which I hope the World Service will take part. From my point of view, it is absolutely legitimate for the Government to say that we are worried about these circumstances in these places and to share our understanding of situations around the world, and it is for the BBC to tell us to back off and to make its own decisions. My aim is to have a collaborative, respectful relationship with the BBC, preserving at all times its independence and ability to make its own choices.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, I agree with the comments the Minister just made and thank the Leader for her response to me two weeks ago, when I raised concerns about World Service cuts in Lebanon. Does the Minister share my concern that, although the BBC World Service is critical for supporting civil society in many conflict areas, the more recent government development cuts of £2 billion—a reduction from 0.58% of GNI to 0.5%—could put at risk the very kind of programmes that support civil society resilience in many conflict areas? I welcome the extra support for the BBC World Service, but will the Minister make sure that there are not cuts elsewhere to programmes that support civil society in these critical vulnerable areas?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We are reviewing development spend, as noble Lords would expect. We do not have the luxury of limitless funds to spend. We are spending a lot of our development money on housing people who arrive here in the UK for 12 months after their arrival. We need to get that spend down so that we can spend it much more wisely on preventing conflict, educating women and girls, supporting freedom of religion and belief, and all the other really positive, important work that we want to do in country. That is our aim.

[Lord Grade of Yarmouth (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my interests, past and present, as listed in the register. The Minister referred to a long-term strategy for the World Service. Such a document exists. I chaired a group commissioned by the then Foreign Secretary, Jeremy Hunt. This report got lost in one of those infrequent reshuffles of the last few years, but it stands today as a blueprint for enhancing the BBC World Service’s influence in exercising the great soft power that exists for Britain’s foreign policy. Will she dust it down and read it?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for bringing that to my attention. I was not aware that there was a strategy dating back to that time, but I commit to finding it and reading it.

[Baroness Coussins (CB)]

My Lords, will the Minister undertake to conduct and publish, before any future funding formula for the BBC is agreed, a dedicated impact assessment for the World Service which takes into account criteria such as the value of soft power and the need for built-in budgetary flexibility, so that the World Service can respond to geopolitical situations in times of jeopardy, which is part of what the charter says it is there for?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The key thing is that we reset the relationship we have with the World Service and stop using the BBC as some kind of political football. In recent years, and without the knowledge of many people, BBC Monitoring and the World Service have provided the most accurate assessment of the Russian war dead in Ukraine. They are educating women and girls in Afghanistan who have been excluded from education. They are the most reliable source of information in areas of conflict, where there is very little else available that can be trusted. We call what they are doing soft power; I think that is the wrong name for it, frankly. Other nations are investing heavily in their propaganda. We do not do that. We allow the independent, high-quality journalism of the World Service to speak for us and to support people in country. I am immensely proud of it and we need to work long term to support it.

[Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford (Con)]

My Lords, we have already heard today of the importance of the BBC World Service as a voice for accurate reporting in many conflict states and politically restricted states, but just this week we had a Question about the risks journalists face in order to do this reporting. Can the Minister say what support and measures the Government are offering to ensure the safety and security of journalists and staff in hostile environments?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

It is vital that journalists be able to go about their work in telling the truth, often in the most difficult of circumstances. They have full consular support from us. We are a member of several multilateral organisations supporting media freedom and the rights of journalists to do their work. We will continue that. I am proud of what the UK has done over many years in this space. We will continue to do that as a new Government.

European Forest Institute (Immunities and Privileges) Order 2024

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Wednesday 13th November 2024 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington]

That the Grand Committee do consider the European Forest Institute (Immunities and Privileges) Order 2024.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, copies of this order were laid before this House on 15 May 2024. The order was laid in draft before Parliament on 15 May, in accordance with the International Organisations Act 1968. It is subject to the affirmative procedure and will be made once it is approved by both Houses. The order was approved in the House of Commons on 23 October 2024.

The main legal recourse to grant privileges and immunities to international organisations with a presence in the United Kingdom is the International Organisations Act 1968, which specifies the maximum privileges and immunities that may be accorded in the UK to various categories of international organisations. The provisions of the Act are applied to different organisations by means of Orders in Council. This order will confer on the European Forest Institute, referred to as the EFI, a bespoke set of privileges and immunities to enable the organisation to function and operate effectively in the UK. It does not confer legal capacity, as this was conferred on the EFI in the European Forest Institute (Legal Capacities) Order 2005.

This order will contribute to the fostering of closer collaboration between the EFI, its members and the UK Government, and support the establishment of an EFI UK office. In addition, in granting these privileges and immunities, we will be able to host an expansion of the EFI’s international partnerships facility in the UK through the opening of a UK office. The international partnerships facility is a global centre of knowledge and expertise that supports policy and governance reforms to improve forest governance and safeguard the world’s forests.

The EFI would host a small, permanent UK-based team, as well as drawing internationally renowned expertise into the UK. With London a major hub for private sector climate finance, there are potential opportunities to bring international forest and finance experts together to foster new financial initiatives, aimed at protecting the world’s forests and tackling climate change and nature loss. The order affords the director, the head of office and EFI staff members a bespoke set of privileges and immunities which diplomatic agents of a diplomatic mission established in the UK are entitled to, including an exemption from the suit and legal process. However, no immunity is conferred in the case of a motor traffic offence or damage caused by a motor vehicle. This is now a standard clause included in statutory instruments and treaties providing for privileges and immunities.

The Government consider these privileges and immunities necessary and appropriate to deliver on the interests and commitments that the UK has towards the EFI. The privileges and immunities conferred will enable its staff to operate effectively in the UK. They are within the scope of the International Organisations Act and in line with UK precedents. The EFI’s board members, and representatives of members, are subject to “official act” immunities. These immunities cover the inviolability of official papers and documents, customs provisions and immunity from suit and legal process, within the scope of official activities. The order also covers the inviolability of the EFI premises and archives, taxes and customs rates, and an immunity waiver.

The support for the EFI’s establishment of an office in the UK is a unique opportunity to reinforce the UK’s leadership on international forests and climate policy. The UK has been involved with the EFI for over 10 years, including through the FCDO’s flagship forest governance, markets and climate programme. Together with the EFI, we have supported national processes on forest and land-use governance in 17 countries across the three tropical forest basins. The EFI is key to that work and the UK remains committed to the organisation. I beg to move.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, for her comprehensive introduction to this subject. She will not be surprised to know that we are fully supportive of the European Forest Institute. It is a good idea for it to be based in the UK and we support the instrument that the Minister has brought before us today.

The EFI plays a pivotal role in advancing research, fostering innovation and developing evidence-based policy recommendations for the extremely important subject of sustainable forestry. As ecological degradation threatens forests worldwide, the institute has a key role to play and its work is becoming ever more vital. As the Minister said, this order seeks to grant immunities and privileges to the EFI, in line with a number of similar agreements that we have established with other international institutions—I took some of those orders through Grand Committee a matter of months ago. Immunities such as those outlined in the order are essential for allowing the EFI to operate independently, free from local administrative and judicial interference.

The UK has historically been a leader in international environmental co-operation. Supporting the EFI aligns with our commitment to combat climate change. It reflects our shared desire for forests that are productive, biodiverse and resilient against the stresses of modernity. The only question I have for the Minister is whether she has any more of these orders coming forward for other international organisations or whether this is the only one outstanding at the moment. We support this order.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his support. It is very good when we can agree on important issues such as this on a long-term, bipartisan basis. It is good to be able to work in this way on an issue such as forestry, especially in a week when the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary are at COP in Baku, where deforestation and the responsible management of forests will no doubt be discussed. I welcome the support from the Official Opposition.

Motion agreed.

West Papua

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Wednesday 13th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what representations they are making to the government of Indonesia to ensure that the recommendations of the UN Human Rights Committee regarding the indigenous population in West Papua are fully implemented.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, the UK welcomes the recommendations of the UN Human Rights Committee in response to the second periodic report of Indonesia under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. We regularly raise our concerns about the human rights situation in Papua, both with the Indonesian embassy in London and directly with the Government in Jakarta. In July 2024, the Foreign Secretary raised Papua with the then Foreign Minister, Retno Marsudi.

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth (CB)]

I thank the Minister for her reply. Since Indonesia invaded and occupied West Papua there have been the most appalling human rights atrocities. Perhaps as many as 300,000 people have been killed, and particularly worrying at the moment is the way West Papua is being repopulated by people from Indonesia so that the indigenous population is in danger of becoming a minority in its own country. The world does not know about this, because Indonesia refuses to allow the press, NGOs or human rights commissioners in. What further steps could the Government take to press the Indonesian Government, and what further steps might they take with the UN itself? This situation has gone on for far too long.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The noble and right reverend Lord raises his concerns about this issue consistently, and we respect him for doing that. As I say, we will continue to raise concerns through the Foreign Minister and others. Minister Dodds visited Indonesia in September, and she also raised concerns about Papua.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are committed to universal human rights. The Minister may anticipate my question, as I have mentioned it before in the House. When are the Government going to appoint a special envoy for freedom of religion and belief? Contrary to the promises that have been made, this has not happened. This is a bipartisan issue, which we all support.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

This is very much a bipartisan issue, and so it should always be. The Government will be making announcements about trade envoys and others, I hope very soon.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, has the Minister been briefed on the Human Rights Watch report from September, which recommended that the Indonesian Government unconditionally release West Papua and other detainees in exercise of their fundamental political rights, and specifically for the new Indonesian Government, just formed, to permit UN human rights monitors to visit West Papua? This would honour a commitment that the previous Indonesian Government gave in 2018 but that has yet to be honoured. Have His Majesty’s Government specifically asked for that latter point with the new Administration?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We support the work of the UN Commission on Human Rights in this regard. As the noble Lord suggests, this was raised in recent dialogue with Indonesian political representatives.

[The Lord Bishop of Manchester]

My Lords, do His Majesty’s Government agree with the Pacific Conference of Churches that the future for West Papua, alongside Mā’ohi Nui, or French Polynesia, and Kanaky, or New Caledonia, lies in self-determination? If so, what conversations have His Majesty’s Government had with the Indonesian Government to put the case that they should give freedom to those territories they have invaded and annexed?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The issue here is that we support self-determination but recognise the territorial integrity of Indonesia. There are many cases where there are independence movements, including, it should be noted, here in the UK. It is usually wise for international partners to raise these sorts of issues in a very careful way. We have raised issues of human rights, but we respect, as I have said, the integrity of the borders of Indonesia.

[Lord Gold (Con)]

My Lords, the deliberate abuse going on is terrible. If the Government are going to be consistent with their policy, should they not be doing something more than talking to the ambassador for Indonesia? We have seen elsewhere that they are prepared to stop trade. There is £3.5 billion-worth of trade going on with Indonesia each year. Perhaps the Government should stop some of it.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We have a range of options, as the noble Lord indicates, and these judgments can be very finely balanced around how to have influence and how to become an irrelevant voice on the sidelines. We encourage Indonesia to co-operate with the United Nations. I do not think that all we are doing is talking to the Indonesian ambassador —although of course we do that. These issues have been raised by the Foreign Secretary and by the Minister for Development, Minister Dodds, in person, in Indonesia, at ministerial level.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister is right to be realistic. Is there any evidence whatever that taking action against one country on trade would make any difference? Quite frankly, if we go down that road then there will be hardly any nations we can trade with.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Every circumstance is different. All the situations where we have concerns are unique. Sometimes it is not possible to raise concerns through dialogue. Sometimes the nature of the relationship is such that that is completely unproductive; we can all think of examples where that is the case. In the case of Indonesia, we have a good relationship with the Government there. We seek to use that relationship to raise these concerns. I think that is the right approach.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I am sure the Minister is aware that the alien and invasive crop of palm oil, which was imposed on the people of West Papua little more than a decade ago, has caused enormous destruction and is very much associated with the human rights abuses that the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, raised in his Question. I do not know whether she is aware of an excellent anthropological study of this, In the Shadow of the Palms: More-Than-Human Becomings in West Papua, which describes how, for the indigenous people of West Papua, oil palms are like sessile triffids that have come in and destroyed their environment and their communities. Can she assure me that no palm oil from West Papua is coming into the UK?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We have worked with the Indonesian Government on sustainable palm oil. I have not read the anthropological study that the noble Baroness refers to, but if she wants to send it to me I would be very happy to look at it. We very much support the role of indigenous communities, particularly in promoting biodiversity and preventing deforestation. They are vital partners and we will achieve very little unless we work closely with indigenous communities.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, should we not be concerned about the Indonesian colonisation of West Papua, which, as the noble and right reverend Lord said, has led to the deaths of tens of thousands among the indigenous population? Will the Government do all they can to stir the international community into action on this matter?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I think the international community is aware of the situation in Papua, hence the interest from the United Nations. We will continue to work through that method, and bilaterally, to raise the issues that we are all so concerned about.

[Lord Spellar (Lab)]

My Lord, I congratulate the Minister on the very measured approach that she is taking. Can she reassure us that the Foreign Office recognises the crucial importance of Indonesia, which is the fourth most populous nation in the world, the most populous Muslim nation, and a crucial part of the economic and security infrastructure in the Indo-Pacific? While we make those representations, can we also advance our relationship?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Whenever possible, influence should be gained through a good relationship and, sometimes, by being a critical friend. The noble Lord’s points about the wider Indo-Pacific and the security situation are things that a responsible Government here in the UK need to take into account.

[Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Con)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for her answers to the noble Lords, Lord Spellar and Lord Watts. Will she take this opportunity to congratulate Indonesia on having last month deposited its formal application to join the CPTPP? Will she congratulate it on, like us, having had a recent democratic and peaceful transition of power, where the new Government keep the same trade policy towards the Pacific bloc as the previous one? Will she take this opportunity to confirm that we will not engage in the kind of protectionism disguised as environmentalism that has led the rapeseed oil industry in Europe to come up with, effectively, a sabotage of any trade deal, thereby opening the door towards the UK being Indonesia’s chief trading partner in this part of the world?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We note the approach to the CPTPP by Indonesia. We believe in free trade and we want to strengthen our trading relationship with partners through the CPTPP, as the noble Lord would expect.

Journalists Detained or Killed Overseas

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Wednesday 13th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Black of Brentwood (Con)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper, and I declare an interest as patron of the Rory Peck Trust and note my other interests in the register.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, we urge the South Sudanese Government to protect journalists and end impunity for human rights abuses. We consistently pressed them to conduct a thorough and credible investigation into Christopher Allen’s death, which resulted in the formation of the investigative committee in 2003 and the subsequent report in March 2024. The UK is examining options to strengthen support for British nationals abroad, including a right to assistance in cases of human rights violations.

[Lord Black of Brentwood (Con)]

My Lords, in August 2017, journalist Christopher Allen, a UK-US citizen, was brutally murdered by government forces in South Sudan while reporting on the conflict there, his corpse despoiled and trophy images of it displayed and filmed in an act of barbarity. No one has been brought to justice, and the report the noble Baroness mentions was deeply flawed and was condemned by international lawyers and press freedom groups as a whitewash.

I have two points for the noble Baroness. First, what pressure will the Government bring to bear on South Sudan to facilitate a proper, independent report which allows Christopher’s family finally to learn the facts about his killing and establish lessons for the UK Government? Secondly, what action will the Government take to bring an end to appalling levels of impunity? Some 80% of the killings of journalists worldwide go unpunished, which directly puts the lives of British journalists in jeopardy.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his supplementary question, and he is absolutely right to draw attention to this issue. We recognise the criticisms about the report that he outlined. We want to know what happened. When you lose a member of your family in such circumstances, in the conduct of their work in a dangerous situation, the family is entitled to know what happened. Sadly, I am afraid that I do not have a great deal of optimism about getting another investigation that would be any more credible or shed any more light on what happened. However, I thank the noble Lord for again bringing the House’s attention to Christopher Allen’s case, and we send our deepest sympathies again to his family.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, in the second part of the noble Baroness’s very welcome reply to the Question that has been put to her, she referred to providing assistance in cases of human rights violation. I welcome the fact that it was a manifesto commitment to do that. Considering the recent meetings that the Foreign Secretary has had with his Chinese and Egyptian counterparts, can the Minister outline what concrete steps His Majesty’s Government have taken to secure consular access to Jimmy Lai, a British publisher who was unjustly jailed in Hong Kong, and Alaa Abd el-Fattah, a British blogger who has been arbitrarily imprisoned in Egypt for the past 10 years?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

As the noble Lord knows, I believe that we have answered questions on Jimmy Lai very recently, but we continue to raise these cases at ministerial level with the relevant Governments, and we remain deeply concerned that we have been unable to gain the access that we would wish.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her Question. We in the previous Government were very much focused on this; can the Minister reassure us about the focus of this Government on media freedom globally and the international alliance that the previous Government set up with Canada? Secondly, the previous Government were exploring the issue of compensation. She may recall that, back in 2014 under the leadership of my noble friend Lord Cameron, we set up a compensation fund for victims of terrorism abroad. Efforts were made to see whether we could also look at extending the scope of that fund, which—from memory—sits with the Ministry of Justice.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

In thanking the noble Lord, I note that sometimes, where there is a change of power in our democracy, former Ministers take with them different things; the noble Lord takes with him a desire to make sure that the torch is received by the incoming Government and that we will carry on doing the work that he initiated. We respect that. I will consider the points he makes about compensation; as he rightly says, that may well lie in other departments, but he was right to raise them.

[Baroness Boycott (CB)]

My Lords, so many conflicts now are incredibly dangerous that reporters who are on the front line—often the faces and the voices that we see and hear on our news channels—are not the people who actually shoot the footage and get out there on the front line. Often, these freelance journalists are inadequately protected. I know that they are protected by some statute, but could the Minister look to see whether, in the case of broadcasts that we see here in the UK, we could at least offer them flack jackets and some level of support, and ensure that, if they do get into trouble, they are helped and, possibly, returned, if that is necessary, to the UK or a place of safety?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We respect enormously the work that is done by journalists. We advise against all travel to South Sudan, and yet we know that it is important that the truth of what is happening there is reported by brave journalists. We will offer every assistance that we can, should they need it.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that aid to South Sudan comes in different strands, including humanitarian development and direct budget support. As far as the latter is concerned, that is money paid by the UK Government to South Sudanese government departments, where there is obviously some leverage that can be made. Therefore, can she comment on what pressure is being put on them and how they are using that leverage in a constructive way?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

It is true that there are different options we can use to approach South Sudan. We can disengage or we can use various levers. We have a relationship with the Government there, and our view is that that is the best way to have some influence. We have a team in Juba, and we provide assistance to people in the most desperate situations. It is one of the most difficult areas on the planet at the moment. Our Minister for Development, in her first visit to Africa, chose to visit South Sudan just to make sure that we use every opportunity to raise our concerns.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, the situation in Juba, South Sudan, requires the kind of reporting and free media that the Minister states, and I agree with her very strongly. However, in Sudan, with the world’s greatest humanitarian crisis and the conflict going on, there is scant reporting and still very brave journalists who are under very considerable threat. The Disasters Emergency Committee has told me that it is not willing to open a humanitarian appeal for Sudan because of the lack of public awareness of the Sudanese crisis. Will the Government support UK-based media and those who are seeking to allow the public to understand that the world’s greatest humanitarian crisis is going on? Those who are responsible for asking the public for support are not being asked.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I was not aware that the DEC took that view. I will look into that, following the noble Lord’s question. It is clearly right that journalists should be able to report from situations that they feel we need to know about, and we respect their freedom to do that and support it. I assure journalists who wish to report from Sudan that they will have the support of the British Government in doing their job.

[Lord Curry of Kirkharle (CB)]

My Lords, the situation in South Sudan is dangerous for all citizens, not just journalists. Democratic elections planned for this month have been cancelled. Can His Majesty’s Government explain what they are doing to achieve stability and to re-establish democracy in South Sudan?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

It is true that progress on the peace agreement has been slow and progress towards holding democratic elections is not what we would want to see. We continue to press upon the Government in South Sudan the importance of making progress and our continued support for the peace process. However, the institutions needed for elections are not sufficiently developed as yet. None the less, we will continue to make the case for free and fair elections in South Sudan.

[Lord Camoys (Con)]

My Lords, there are more than 1,400 political prisoners in the Russian Federation, at least 63 of whom are journalists and media actors. There have been reports of Russia targeting journalists in the Ukraine war. Does the Minister know how many British journalists are in Ukraine, and how does she plan to keep them safe?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The truth is that I do not know how many British journalists are in Ukraine or whether anybody would be able to answer the noble Lord’s question. However, we work with media organisations, we listen to Reporters Sans Frontières and we take the concerns that they raise seriously and use every lever that we can, multilaterally and bilaterally, to ensure the safety of journalists, who, as I have said, do such an important job for us. It is vital that we understand what is happening in Ukraine.

China: Human Rights and Sanctions

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Tuesday 29th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, we are told that when the Foreign Secretary visited China, he raised British citizen Jimmy Lai’s sham detention, and we welcome that. Jimmy is 76 and is being held in solitary confinement, yet the Foreign Secretary has still not met Jimmy’s son, despite his coming to the UK on multiple occasions and asking for a meeting. Yesterday in the other place, the Foreign Secretary failed to answer whether or not he would meet Jimmy’s son, so let me give the Minister another opportunity. Will Ministers meet Jimmy Lai’s son—yes or no?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

That is quite an easy one because my colleague, Minister Catherine West, has met Jimmy’s family on several occasions, both in opposition and since being appointed as a Minister. I also recall from reading the transcript of the Commons exchanges yesterday that the Foreign Secretary did indeed commit to meeting Sebastien Lai.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, the Foreign Secretary said yesterday in the House of Commons

“this Government will set a long-term, consistent and strategic approach to China”.

That would be welcome. He went on, however, to criticise the previous Government in 2015 for what they termed a “golden era” of their relationship with China. Have the Government committed in their strategic audit of their relations with China, which I support, to include all the preferential trading agreements the UK has offered China? This includes financial services, where Chinese state enterprises which have some element of involvement in human rights abuses may be involved in preferential market access to British financial services. Will that review be public?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his support for the China audit. I think the most helpful thing I can say at this point is that the audit will be thorough and cross-government; the whole of Whitehall and all departments will be included in that audit.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

I am astonished that the Foreign Secretary did not offer a Statement to the House of Commons but forced an Urgent Question, which has, of course, limited our opportunity to ask questions as well. Is it because he understands that there are some western democracies that, in the recent past, have got their people out of Chinese Communist Party prisons, yet his kowtowing visit means that he came back empty-handed as far as Jimmy Lai is concerned?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I must disagree with my noble friend on his assertions and the tone in which he put his question. My right honourable friend David Lammy, the Foreign Secretary, went to China because he wanted to raise these issues. Unless we engage with China, we do not get the opportunity to raise these issues. He raised the case of Jimmy Lai. He has called for Jimmy Lai to be released, as well he should. This is consistent with his position in opposition. He has gone further and made sure that every Minister in their engagement with China continues to raise on every occasion the case of Jimmy Lai. He should be released.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the United Kingdom consistently led on the situation of the Uighurs in Xinjiang. Last year, at the UN Third Committee and subsequently at the Human Rights Council, 51 member states, led by the United Kingdom, signed a statement. I note with some degree of disappointment that there was a statement presented this year at the same forum, where only 16 countries, the United Kingdom included, came behind an Australian- led permanent representative statement. What action will the Government take to continue to ensure the UK’s leadership on this important issue?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We will continue to lead on this issue where we can in international fora. I am grateful for what the noble Lord said, and we share his concerns on this. But, to reiterate, the Foreign Secretary raised Xinjiang and the Uighur people in China last week, and he will continue to do so because our concerns have not changed since the change of Government. He will continue to raise those issues whenever and wherever he can.

[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Lab)]

I will ask the Minister about the situation for parliamentarians in this country who were sanctioned because of raising what was happening to the Uighur community in Xinjiang province. Two Members of this House—myself and the noble Lord, Lord Alton—and five Members of the House of Commons were sanctioned. I understand that that was not raised in the Foreign Secretary’s meeting with the leadership in China. Preserving our right to raise human rights issues, without feeling that there will be consequences for doing so, should concern this House.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I completely agree with my noble friend, as does the Foreign Secretary. These issues are raised. The sanctions against parliamentarians for things they have said are completely unwarranted and unacceptable. The Foreign Secretary met with Speaker Hoyle before his trip to China to reiterate that this was a concern to him. It is a concern to the Foreign Secretary and to all of us in the Government. It is inappropriate that parliamentarians in this and the other House should be sanctioned in this way, and we will consistently raise this with China.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, I am sure that it is right to raise where Chinese behaviour is deplorable and to challenge China robustly, but should we not seek to switch the emphasis to a less defensive and more positive side? We can outsmart the Chinese by showing that our kind of liberal capitalism, when we reform it—it needs reforming—is vastly superior to anything they can deliver, and that freedom under the law and free speech are of more benefit to nations than falling under the Chinese hegemon, as they will find in time. If the security and prosperity of the developing world are the prime requirement, the Commonwealth contains six of the fastest-growing economies in the world—a very much better bunch than the dodgy deals of BRI and other arrangements with the Chinese, where countries just find themselves loaded with more and more debt. Is there not a more positive side to take, as well as raising these issues that have very properly been raised?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

On this Government’s approach, we want a consistent, strategic and pragmatic relationship because we think that is the best way to make progress on some of these issues that are of concern to all sides of the House. The way that we are describing this is that we will co-operate where we can, compete where we need to and challenge where we must.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, did the Foreign Secretary raise the appalling treatment of Tibetans, particularly the sacrilege by which some of their wonderfully famous and sacred sites are being destroyed? If this was raised, does the Minister know the answer?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I am frantically looking through the read-out of the exchange to see a reference to Tibet. I assure the noble Baroness that the Foreign Secretary raised a number of foreign policy and security matters, particularly issues around human rights. As she would expect, you do not get an instant result in these sorts of exchanges—diplomacy is about consistency and it takes time. But we are now in a period where we want a consistent, stable and pragmatic relationship. For 14 years, the relationship has blown hot and cold, and we have not had that stability and consistency. So that is the approach we will see from this Government.

[Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Con)]

My Lords, the Chinese state is not the first autocracy in the world and it may not be the most repressive, but it is by far the most technologically advanced. The ways in which the People’s Republic uses face recognition technology, surveillance technology and apps that monitor your phone is without precedent, as is the way it uses notionally private companies, such as Tencent, Weibo and Alibaba. Has the Minister’s department made any assessment of whether this kind of surveillance state could be exported; in other words, whether China’s allies and client states might be offered the package of a panopticon state to use on their own citizens?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, we are concerned about surveillance and threats to, for instance, BNO passport holders or others here in the UK, and we monitor that extremely closely. We take our responsibilities towards human rights, compromises of freedom of religious belief and other issues of privacy very seriously.

[Lord Garnier (Con)]

My Lords, what assessment have the Government made of China’s intentions to act aggressively in a military sense in the western Pacific? Do they agree that it is highly likely to come very shortly? What are we doing about it?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, we take the issues of freedom of navigation on the high seas extremely seriously. These were raised with China by the Foreign Secretary, and we made our position on these issues very clear.

South Asia: Minority Faith Communities

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Monday 28th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon, for securing this debate on such an important topic. In the light of his heartfelt introduction, I pay tribute to his previous leadership and activism on this agenda, including but not only when he was a Minister at the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office.

I thank all noble Lords for their insightful and heartfelt contributions. This is a topic unlike any other in the portfolio of any Minister; it is something that I think we all feel to our fingertips. Freedom of religion or belief is something that, as the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, closed with, we enjoy in this country, and we are grateful for that. It is a right that we wish to see extended across the globe, but, sadly, the situation—and not just in south Asia, as the noble Lord pointed out—is not a good one.

The Pew Research Center’s latest study revealed that global government restrictions on religion hit a new high two years ago. This is why we must continue to champion freedom of religion or belief—or FoRB, as we call it—for all, and challenge threats to it wherever they occur, including in south Asia.

Given the devastating ongoing conflicts around the world today, respecting freedom of religion or belief and promoting interreligious dialogue can build trust between communities and contribute to securing sustainable peace. That is the work that we wish to see extended everywhere we can. However, as noble Lords have made clear through their contributions, sadly that is lacking in too many places today.

Across south Asia, many countries have seen a rise in incidents of violence and discrimination directed towards minority communities. This is deeply concerning. We have heard today examples and stories of hideous abuses. In Pakistan, in addition to the accounts we have heard from noble Lords, there have been at least four targeted killings of Ahmadi Muslims this year alone. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Sahota, for sharing his family’s experience of Sikh communities in Pakistan; his insights are of great value to this House.

In September, in Pakistan, two men were killed by law enforcement officers in separate incidents of violence relating to allegations of blasphemy. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Newcastle and the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, raised the blasphemy laws, and we are grateful to them for bringing them to our attention. As noble Lords may know, in May, a large mob violently assaulted a Christian man and his family in Punjab, on accusations of blasphemy. An elderly man died in hospital a week later as a result of his injuries. Elsewhere in south Asia, recently enacted and proposed legislation in Sri Lanka risks limiting fundamental freedoms too. Sadly, the list of examples is far too long.

The situation is troubling, to say the least. The noble Lord, Lord Callanan, pointed us in the direction of data from the Pew Research Center. He told us that three of the 19 countries that scored very high on the Government Restrictions Index are in south Asia: Afghanistan, Pakistan and the Maldives. He also told us that three of the seven countries that scored very high on the Social Hostilities Index are in south Asia: India, Afghanistan and Pakistan. We can see that Pakistan and Afghanistan are among the four countries globally classified as having among the highest levels of both government restriction and social hostilities involving religion.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sugg, asked me to offer her some hope on Afghanistan. I am not sure that I am able to do that this evening, and she will understand why, but I am grateful to her, as I am sure all noble Lords are, for bringing her concerns to the debate this evening. She rightly asked me about women and girls. We know that in conflict and religious persecution it is often women and girls who bear the brunt. I reassure her that the programmes we have on gender-based violence and raising awareness of the harms of early and forced marriage are continuing. I hope that we can continue to have her support for those.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sugg, asked about the Bishop of Truro and his work. The Bishop of Truro’s 2019 review provided recommendations for FCDO support for freedom of religion or belief. In 2022, as she will know, an independent review assessing the department’s implementation of the recommendations was largely positive. I think some of the credit for that may go to the noble Baroness—I am not sure—and certainly to the noble Lord. With this concluded, we are going to look ahead to build on it and on the work that the previous Government did in this area.

Recognising that human rights are universal, indivisible, interdependent and interrelated, this Government continue to champion freedom of religion or belief for all, across the world. It is our firm belief that no one should live in fear because of what they do or do not believe in. Across south Asia, the UK is taking action. The Government regularly raise the importance of religious tolerance and freedom of religion or belief, including at the highest levels. To give just one example, Minister Falconer recently underlined its importance when he met Pakistan’s human rights Minister in September.

Through our programmes, we are directly supporting communities and affected populations and addressing drivers. In Sri Lanka, the UK Integrated Security Fund is working to strengthen social cohesion, countering hate speech and, which is also important, documenting cases of intimidation and attacks against religious minorities. In Pakistan, our accountability, inclusion and reducing modern slavery programme supports policy development and community empowerment to protect marginalised groups. Bringing together community and faith leaders, it promotes interfaith harmony and has reached over 35 million people with information and awareness about rights and government services. The John Bunyan Fund continues to support projects around the world that specifically aim to protect and promote freedom of religion or belief.

Listening to and, when we can, championing the voices of affected communities remains for this Government, as for the last, of the utmost importance. In India, the British High Commission in New Delhi and our network of deputy high commissioners across the country regularly meet religious representatives and have run projects supporting human rights. We have hosted ministerial level round-table discussions with various religious representatives.

I was asked by the noble Lords, Lord Ahmad and Lord Jackson, about Manipur. The situation is incredibly serious, as the noble Lord, Lord Jackson said; it is complex, and we understand that. We are going to continue to monitor it very closely through our deputy high commissioner in Kolkata. It is appropriate to say that we send our deepest condolences to all those affected. I commit that we will continue to raise our concerns directly with the Government there, including at ministerial level.

I take this opportunity to reference Nepal. We regularly interact with an interfaith group of different leaders, including representatives of believers in Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Sikhism, Jainism and Om Shanti religions. We support the Tibetan Buddhist community, who face discrimination, and ensure that that is visible and impactful.

Noble Lords referenced Bangladesh. As the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, and others said, there has been a great deal of political upheaval in recent months in Bangladesh. The UK will continue to engage with a wide range of civil society and other stakeholders to understand fully what is happening and their concerns. We will continue to support freedom of religion or belief through our development programmes there.

As noble Lords will know, we also work multilaterally. We are an active member of several alliances working to promote and protect freedom of religion or belief, including the Article 18 alliance. These coalitions of member states work to advance this cause around the world. Just this month we have taken several measures. FCDO officials participated—I take the point that it was not a Minister; I believe it was when the noble Lord, Lord Collins, who has ministerial responsibility for this, was at CHOGM, but ordinarily he would very much have wanted to be there—in the international ministerial conference in Berlin, which was focused on freedom of religion or belief and AI.

We also delivered a statement at the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe conference on freedom of religion or belief and fundamental freedoms, given how crucial human rights are to the organisation’s comprehensive view of security. Last week the UK was pleased to participate in an interactive dialogue with the UN special rapporteur in New York, discussing connections between freedom of religion or belief and peace, which is the focus of her recent report. Earlier this month we co-sponsored a Human Rights Council resolution that extended the mandate of UN special rapporteur Richard Bennett to monitor and report on the human rights situation in Afghanistan, including the situation of minority groups, for another year.

The Whip is coughing at me, but I do not want to sit down without answering the point about the special envoy. Noble Lords will probably notice what I have said the last few times I have been asked about this. Their support for the position is noted. I do not have anything new to add today, but I am sure it will not be long before I have something more to say. I assure noble Lords that the torch from the previous Government has been received and we will continue to carry it forward because it is such an important issue.

Red Sea: Houthi Attacks

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Thursday 24th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to respond to Houthi attacks on global shipping passing through the Bab el-Mandeb straits and Southern Red Sea; and what recent advice has been given to UK flagged merchant ships travelling through that area.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, given that my noble friend is in uniform, I feel underdressed on this occasion.

My noble friend asks a serious Question. UK forces have participated in five joint operations with US forces against Houthi military facilities to degrade their ability to persist with their attacks on international shipping in the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aden. We continue to defend the freedom of navigation, safe passage and British lives at sea. We share with British shipping regular updates containing relevant security information, which support commercial decision-making.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend the Minister for her Answer. I am sure she shares my admiration for our ships that have been involved there in very difficult circumstances and the aircraft that have carried out the attacks.

Having one ship there means that we need three ships. If we put two ships there, we need six ships. This being Trafalgar week, I think of Nelson, who said he would die with “lack of frigates” engraved on his heart. He had 210 frigates in his Navy. Today we have six operational frigates in our Navy. For many years we have been warning that this is the state we would get to. Looking to the future, ships are being built but very slowly. Can the Government speed up the rate? For example, the Japanese build a large destroyer in three years. We take eight years to build a small frigate. Can the Government pursue this, to speed up the building rate and get a quicker drum beat?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, as my noble friend would expect, we are committed to making sure that our military, be that on air, land or sea, is adequately equipped and has everything it needs to do its important job. We currently spend around £54 billion on defence and are working hard to get to a point where we can meet our commitment to spending 2.5% on defence.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is beyond urgent to put global pressure on the parties in the Middle East to bring the conflict to an end, given the devastation, loss of life and instability, as in this case, that it has produced? What action are the Government taking?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The implication of that question is that somehow the behaviour of the Houthis regarding shipping is related to the instability and the war in Israel and Gaza. We do not accept that. The behaviour of the Houthis needs to stop. It is a threat to security and stability more widely in the Middle East. We do not accept the Houthis’ contention that their behaviour is in any way related to the situation in Israel, Lebanon or Gaza.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, just to add to that question, will the Minister look at the wider situation regarding the peace agreement in Yemen? Until there is more momentum behind the peace talks in Yemen, this problem in the Red Sea is not going to be solved.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Until the horrendous attacks by Hamas on Israel on 7 October, the peace process was progressing. An envoy was engaged, and it looked as if there may well be some progress. Sadly, that is not the situation that we are in at the moment. We will use every diplomatic lever that we can, in addition to the measures we are taking to defend shipping and prevent further attacks, to bring about stability and de-escalation.

[Lord Beamish (Lab)]

My Lords, one effect of the attacks on shipping in the Red Sea is the increase in maritime insurance premiums. London is a world leader in maritime insurance. What discussions are taking place with the maritime insurance industry to ensure that shipping is insurable?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Clearly, the cost of insurance has been impacted by the activities of the Houthis. We have seen much shipping diverted around the Cape of Good Hope, which takes much longer and is more expensive. We are concerned about this. London is host to the International Maritime Organization, so we play a leading role in international maritime security. We continue to monitor closely the implications of this activity on the cost to shipping, which is one of the reasons why the action we have taken has been so decisive. We will continue to work as hard as we possibly can, using whatever levers are available, to prevent this danger to life and to stability in the region.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, one of the things that affect the security of the Red Sea routes, as we have discussed before, is security in the Horn of Africa. With the current inability of Ukraine to export its grain to that region—it is now almost exclusively going to western Europe—Russia has seized the opportunity to back-fill the provision of that grain to the region and to use food as a political tool to spread its malign influence. What are the UK Government doing to counter Russia’s activities in this regard?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The behaviour of Russia in this instance, as in many others, is deplorable. This shows how interconnected many of these conflicts are, meaning that our response to these issues and the posture that we adopt need to be carefully calibrated so that we work very carefully, consistently and with some effect—although we want to achieve far more to make sure that aid can get into Yemen and that the people of Somalia and Ethiopia get the support they need. The activities of Iran and Russia have been devastating to the lives of many people living in those countries.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, I think we all wish to commend the professionalism of our Royal Navy personnel, so evident in this part of the world. In particular, HMS “Diamond” has been protecting shipping in the Red Sea. She called in a couple of weeks ago to refuel at Diego Garcia. Can the Minister confirm that the recent transfer of sovereignty of BIOT to Mauritius will not in any way obstruct the ability of the United Kingdom to protect UK-flagged merchant shipping in the region?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Absolutely. I am happy to provide that assurance, particularly since, as I am sure the noble Baroness is aware, the Houthis have made statements on wishing to extend their activities into the Indian Ocean. She is completely right to raise that, and I can provide the assurance she seeks.

[Lord Turnberg (Lab)]

My Lords, the Houthis have cast the United Kingdom as one of their enemies. People have been marching on the streets of Britain disgracefully supporting that. Will the UK Government proscribe the Houthis now?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We are doing everything we can to de-escalate the situation. We do not seek a conflict with the Houthis. We have had to take military action to respond to the threats to shipping, including to British vessels, and we will continue to do that as we need to. Everything we do is with the aim of de-escalation, not least because that is what the people of Yemen need. They are experiencing extreme hunger. We need to be able to keep getting the aid into the north of Yemen for the sake of those people.

[Lord Geddes (Con)]

My Lords, can UK-flagged merchant ships be armed if the owners, captain and crew agree?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Regarding decisions on maritime security, we have constant conversations with those responsible for shipping and give advice on security. We have not advised shipping to divert away from this route, but clearly those responsible are making decisions for themselves. We have seen a large number of vessels divert around the Cape of Good Hope, for obvious reasons.

[Lord Sandhurst (Con)]

I thought the question was about arming vessels, not the route they took. Can the Minister answer that, please?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The answer I provided may not be the one that noble Lords opposite wanted to hear but, none the less, it is my answer. We work closely with those who are responsible for maritime security and for shipping. I think that is what a responsible Government would do. That is as far as I will go today.

Ukraine: North Korean Troops

Baroness Chapman of Darlington Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd October 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Baroness Chapman of Darlington) (Lab)]

My Lords, it is highly likely that the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea has begun to send troops to Russia. This is a deeply concerning development that risks prolonging the war and augments DPRK’s already significant support to Russia, including munitions and arms that are being used by Russia in its illegal war against Ukraine. This further illustrates Russia’s growing reliance on third-country support and the deepening military co-operation between Russia and DPRK, which has security implications for Europe, the Indo-Pacific and the wider world.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, I doubt anybody in NATO would wish to see a shooting war with Russia, far less, God forbid, a nuclear conflict. The aggressor, Putin, threatens the West throughout with dire consequences unknown if there is any escalation of the war, yet he is now apparently bringing in thousands of North Korean troops to assist him, from an ally in the axis of evil. Putin is already waging war against the West. In the UK, Litvinenko was murdered 18 years ago, we had the Salisbury poisonings and only last month we had the warning from Ken McCallum of MI5 about Putin’s intention to disrupt British life. Will the Minister please go back to her colleagues in the department so that we can further assist Ukraine in defeating the aggressor? In particular, will she lobby for allowing Storm Shadow missiles and other weaponry to be used for attacks on Russia, because the best way to maintain peace in Europe is to defeat the aggressor, Putin?

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

Before my noble friend responds, this is called Question Time for a reason. We want short, sharp questions.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I am grateful to my noble friend the Chief Whip. With absolute respect for the long experience of the noble Lord, Lord Robathan, and the conviction and passion that he brings to his question, there were several points in there. We have discussed Storm Shadow at length in this Chamber. The only person who benefits from us discussing it in this way is Vladimir Putin. I will not say any more than what I have already said on Storm Shadow, but I absolutely agree with the noble Lord that this is further evidence of Russia’s hypocrisy, as he alluded to, its recklessness and its absolute disregard for international peace and security.

[Lord Stirrup (CB)]

My Lords, we read and hear a lot about the military pressure Russia is exerting on Ukraine, but are not the increasing numbers of North Koreans involved in the conflict, along with the widening of the pool of prisoners from which Russia seeks to recruit soldiers, evidence that the pressure is far from one-sided? Does this not underscore the importance of sustained resolve on the part of the West?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The noble and gallant Lord is correct, and that is what we will have. We have gone over this ground very many times, but it is always worth repeating that the defence of Ukraine is the defence of Europe. The consequence of the West doing anything other than showing the resolve that the noble and gallant Lord recommends would be to send a deeply worrying message that we fail to stand up to aggressors such as Putin. That must never, ever be something we can tolerate. We stand united in this House, in the country and with our allies.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, part of the pernicious relationship between North Korea and Russia is the supply of military equipment, but the disturbing BRICS summit, which many of our trading allies are currently attending with Putin, means that there are too many countries supplying component parts that can be channelled through North Korea and end up being used on the battlefields of Ukraine against our ally. Will the Minister ask the Office of Trade Sanctions Implementation—a new development that we welcome —to be proactive in ensuring that component parts for military equipment from our trading allies do not end up in Ukraine, and to look at widening our trade sanctions?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Our sanctions regime and the legislation that surrounds it apply to any UK entity, be that in the UK or worldwide, as the noble Lord knows. We will speak to anyone we need to, using any appropriate channels, to try to dissuade others from supplying Russia through whatever means. All anybody supplying Russia with munitions, troops or anything else serves to do, whether they are an ally of ours or not, is prolong this illegal war and the suffering of the people of Ukraine.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My Lords, we on this side stand united with the noble Baroness and the Government in our support for Ukraine. Yesterday, it was reported in the Daily Telegraph that South Korea could send lethal weapons to Ukraine after North Korean troops land in Russia. Could she therefore confirm whether the Foreign Secretary was privy to any conversations during his recent visit to South Korea about whether it will provide support to Ukraine?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary recently spoke with his counterparts in South Korea and, indeed, in China. Noble Lords can rest assured that he raised at the highest level all the issues we would want him to raise regarding Russia, Ukraine and China.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that if North Korean troops were deployed in Ukraine or North Korean materiel were passed to Russia, that would be a breach of UN Security Council resolutions for which Russia voted in favour?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

It would clearly be a breach. It is deeply concerning, and the most recent reports seem to indicate that it is highly likely, hence the deep concern we are expressing at the moment.

[Lord Houghton of Richmond (CB)]

The effective control of escalation in this conflict appears to be vital. Can the Minister in any way reassure the House that we are a fundamental part of some international mechanism that assesses escalation risk?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Everything we have done has been with a view to avoiding escalation, because that is the last thing we want to see. However, the reports we have had in recent days are a significant step, and we are deeply concerned. So, our approach will be to discuss the implications of this closely with our partners, as noble Lords would expect.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

Will the Minister please reflect on two points made this week at the All-Party Parliamentary Group on North Korea, which I co-chair? The first was that the young soldier who walked across a minefield in August is representative of many North Koreans who would like to escape from that tyranny. Can we reach over the heads of their armed forces commanders and make sure that they receive messages in Korean, so they know that they are entitled to take up Korean citizenship in the Republic of Korea should they defect? The second point concerns the United Nations commission of inquiry report 10 years ago. It found crimes against humanity by the North Korean regime and called for a referral to the International Criminal Court. That has never been done. When is the United Kingdom going to raise this?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I will give consideration to the last point the noble Lord raised, which is very important. On his point about the young Korean soldier, we have known for a long time that the people of North Korea are not masters of their own destiny and do not make their choices freely and willingly. It is desperately sad that we now seem likely to see further decisions made on their behalf, but not in their interests.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that this very serious recent development reinforces the importance of the UK’s programme for training Ukraine’s troops? Will she give the House an update on that programme?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The noble Lord is right: this is an important contribution that we make and will continue to make. It sits alongside measures announced yesterday—the £2.6 billion additional funding for Ukraine, to be supported by interest on seized Russian assets, alongside the £3 billion per year that the UK has committed to for as long as Ukraine needs it.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister said in her initial Answer that she thought that the deployment of North Korean troops would prolong the war. When does she think this war is going to end, with or without the North Koreans?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I only wish I had the answer to that. All I can say is that the way this war ends and the circumstances in which it concludes must be and can only be the decision of the people of Ukraine.