Bills
Live Bills
Government Bills
Private Members' Bills
Acts of Parliament Created
Departments
Department for Business and Trade
Department for Culture, Media and Sport
Department for Education
Department for Energy Security & Net Zero
Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
Department of Health and Social Care
Department for Transport
Department for Science, Innovation & Technology
Department for Work and Pensions
Cabinet Office
Foreign, Commonwealth & Development Office
Home Office
Leader of the House
Ministry of Defence
Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government
Ministry of Justice
Northern Ireland Office
Scotland Office
HM Treasury
Wales Office
Department for International Development (Defunct)
Department for Exiting the European Union (Defunct)
Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Defunct)
Department for International Trade (Defunct)
Reference
User Guide
Stakeholder Targeting
Dataset Downloads
APPGs
Upcoming Events
The Glossary
2024 General Election
Learn the faces of Parliament
Petitions
Tweets
Publications
Written Questions
Parliamentary Debates
Parliamentary Research
Non-Departmental Publications
Secondary Legislation
MPs / Lords
Members of Parliament
Lords
Pricing
About
Login
Home
Live Debate
Lords Chamber
Lords Chamber
Tuesday 13th May 2025
(began 2 months ago)
Share Debate
Copy Link
Watch Live
Print Debate (Subscribers only)
Skip to latest contribution
This debate has concluded
14:40
Introduction(s): Lord Harper and Lord Massey of Hampstead
-
Copy Link
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Charles Charles III, Charles III, by Charles III, by the Charles III, by the grace Charles III, by the grace of Charles III, by the grace of God
of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of our other realms and territories
King, Head of the Commonwealth,
Defender of the Faith, to all Lords Spiritual and Temporal and all other our subjects whatsoever to whom
these present shall come, greeting. Know ye that we of our especial
grace, certain knowledge and mere motion, in pursuance of the Life Peerages Act 1958 and of all other powers in that behalf us enabling
do, by these presence advance, create and prefer our trusty and
well beloved, Mark James Harper to
the state, degree, style, dignity, title and honour of Baron Harper of
the Forest of Dean in our county of Worcestershire.
And for us, our heirs and successors, do appoint, give and grant unto him the said name, state, degree, style, dignity,
name, state, degree, style, dignity,
title and honour of Baron Harper to have and to hold unto him for his
life. Willing and by these presence granting, for us, our heirs and
successors that he may have, hold and possess a seat, place and voice in the Parliaments and Public Assemblies and Councils of us, our
heirs and successors, within our
United Kingdom, amongst the Barons.
And also that he may enjoy and use all the rights, privileges,
preeminences, immunities and advantages to the degree of a Baron, duly and of right belonging, which Barons of our United Kingdom have
heretofore used and enjoyed or as
they do at present use and enjoy. In witness whereof we have caused these
our letters to be made patent,
witness ourself at Westminster in the full moon of the 12th day of May
in the third year of our reign. By
warrant under the Kings sign manual.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I, Mark Lord Harper, do swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful
Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and
Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Charles
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Charles III, Charles III, by Charles III, by the Charles III, by the grace Charles III, by the grace of Charles III, by the grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of our other realms and territories
our other realms and territories King, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, to all Lords
Defender of the Faith, to all Lords Spiritual and Temporal and all other our subjects whatsoever to whom
these present shall come, greeting.
these present shall come, greeting. Know ye that we of our especial grace, certain knowledge and mere motion, in pursuance of the Life Peerages Act 1958 and of all other
Peerages Act 1958 and of all other powers in that behalf us enabling do, by these presence advance, create and prefer our trusty and
create and prefer our trusty and
create and prefer our trusty and well beloved, Stephen Leigh Massey To the state, degree, style,
To the state, degree, style,
dignity, title and honour of Baron
Massey And for us, our heirs and successors, do appoint, give and grant unto him the said name, state, degree, style, dignity, title and
honour of Baron Massey to have and
to hold unto him for his life.
Willing and by these presence
granting, for us, our heirs and successors that he may have, hold and possess a seat, place and voice in the Parliaments and Public
Assemblies and Councils of us, our heirs and successors, within our
United Kingdom, amongst the Barons. And also that he may enjoy and use all the rights, privileges, preeminences, immunities and advantages to the degree of a Baron,
duly and of right belonging, which Barons of our United Kingdom have heretofore used and enjoyed or as
In witness whereof we have caused these our letters to be made patent, witness ourself at Westminster in
the afternoon of the 12th day of May.
In the third year of our reign. By warrant under the King's sign-
By warrant under the King's sign-
!, Stephen Leigh Massey, do swear by
Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty King Charles, his heirs and successors, according to law. So
First First Oral First Oral Question.
First Oral Question. First Oral Question.
14:50
Lord Woodley (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
I wish to question on the Order
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Paper study among them. Will pay tribute to the music of police, Prison and Probation Service is the importance of trade unions.
is the importance of trade unions. The government inherited a justice
The government inherited a justice system in crisis which placed a huge burden on staff and I am committed to making H NPPS a world-class organisation and I know that the
14:50
Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
organisation and I know that the Home Office colleagues are working hard to give police officers the support they need to tackle crime
**** Possible New Speaker ****
and keep the public safe. I thank the Minister for that
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I thank the Minister for that response, in a civilised society, our police, prisons and services
our police, prisons and services must never, ever be run on the cheap, crumbling prisons, shortages of staff, they are endemic. Does the
of staff, they are endemic. Does the Minister agree that it was a terrible mistake by the last
government not to protect these vital public services that are
themselves so important to
themselves so important to protecting the public, when they released their austerity agenda?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
What is clear, we inherited a mess, a prison system on the verge of collapse and decimated policing
of collapse and decimated policing numbers. This government took decisive action to eliminate
14:51
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (Liberal Democrat)
-
Copy Link
-
decisive action to eliminate precious and is committed to making sure that the situation never happens again stop that is why we
published the first annual statement on a prison capacity, published a 10
year strategy, and commissioned the independent sentencing review. This government is taking steps to rebuild neighbourhood policing,
which is why we have made £200 million available in 25/26 to support the first steps of
delivering 13,000 more neighbourhood
**** Possible New Speaker ****
policing personnel. The Minister promised last week a
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The Minister promised last week a seismic shift to improve it professional standard across the
professional standard across the Prison and Probation Service, he described reports of bullying, discrimination and harassment as a
14:52
Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
discrimination and harassment as a wake-up call and an opportunity to change. We agree, the retention rates are very bad, 10.4% of
probation officers leaving annually,
Probation Service officers, including assistants and trainees, that is over 12%. They have too much
to do with little experience. 7.8% of prison officers leave every year.
No morale is -- no morale is a major contributor but so is pay and conditions. What extra resources will the government be putting into
recruitment and retention in those services.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Last year, we recruited 1,000 extra officers and this year we
extra officers and this year we recruit 1,300, it is not just in recruiting staff, it is about embracing technology. Last week, we
embracing technology. Last week, we announced that we would recommend... Agree to all of the 12 ignitions of
Agree to all of the 12 ignitions of the review and we are grateful to that non-execs for the work done on
14:53
Lord Sandhurst (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
that non-execs for the work done on that. It is unacceptable that staff have to be working in conditions
when they are bullied, little and sexually harassed, and I are determined to stamp it out. So far
as retention, they are not where I would like them to be and I and
working very hard to make sure that HMPPS is a world-class organisation, that means high rates of training,
that means high rates of training, high rate of morale and high rates of success.
14:54
Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
There was reported a 12.5%
leaving rate between and three up to five prison officers. Given the
number of new recruits decreased by 35.4% during the same period, will the Minister explain what practical
steps the government is taking to
improve both recruitment and retention among prison officers.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The latest figures, we have 97% of the number of staff that we need,
of the number of staff that we need, clearly we have got a bit to go, a number of those staff are yet fully
number of those staff are yet fully trained. Before I was asked to come and do this role, I did a full
14:54
Lord Rogan (Ulster Unionist Party)
-
Copy Link
-
and do this role, I did a full review into the training of synopsis and I am fortunate that now I am in
this role it is more likely to happen. Training is a big part of the reason why staff leave to any,
we want to make sure that people build their whole careers in the prison service because it is skilfully learned, soft skills,
about how they speak to prisoners and offenders, that really makes a difference.
14:55
Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
My Lords, the police service in Northern Ireland currently has an
all-time low of 6,300 officers. The Chief Constable has taken approximately 200 million additional
funding to increase the headcount to
7,000 in 2028. Whilst I acknowledge that response with for funding the PSI is devolved, national security
is the responsible to of His
Majesty's Government. Given the threat from Republican terrorists to police and prison officers, does the noble Lord agree it is a comment on
the U.K.'s ministers step forward to bridge the funding gap to keep these
men and women safe? men and women safe?
14:55
The Lord Bishop of Gloucester (Bishops)
-
Copy Link
-
I am pleased to say that we are, as a garment, putting an extra £1 billion into policing, that will go
a long way to address the neighbourhood policing issues that we have discussed. we have discussed.
14:56
Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
My Lords, last week, I observed
the intensive supervision court in Birmingham where women serving community orders for low-level offences are closely monitored by
judges. Probation staff play a pivotal role. It is clear that the
work is high and intense, what steps is the government taking to urgently
ensure that problem-solving courts have the best chance of succeeding and other creative community
proposals that we hope will come out of the independent sentencing review?
14:56
Lord Reid of Cardowan (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
Hopefully, we will not have to wait too long, for the review, maybe I should ask some of the Lords about
the exact dates, but the best day I have had doing this job, was going
to the intensive supervision court in Birmingham, it was incredibly uplifting, seeing female offenders
coming out from the cells, looking very ill, and seeing those who had been engaging for six months, how
their lives have changed. They knew they had to engage with probation,
they had to engage with probation, housing and often drug and addiction work and if they did not, they went to prison.
14:57
Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
Can I congratulate and thank the government for the re-establishment
and the emphasis of neighbourhood policing. The run-down of neighbourhood policing was a terrible mistake by the last
government. Will the Minister accept, my noble friend the
Minister, except that neighbourhood policing is not just an essential element of effective policing, but
it is absolutely crucial to the confidence which the public have in
the police service because they can
see police on the beat and in their own neighbourhood.
14:57
Lord Bailey of Paddington (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
Neighbourhood policing is the bedrock of British policing. It is the right model for us. The last
government, we lost 20,000 police officers, we expect up to 3,000
roles by the end of next year. Every community deserve visible, proactive and accessible policing with
officers tackling issues that matter to people.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Police services countrywide struggle to recruit members from the black and ethnic minority
14:58
Baroness O'Loan (Crossbench)
-
Copy Link
-
black and ethnic minority communities, that is mainly because of the very low level morale against
black serving officers. What works are you doing to support those
**** Possible New Speaker ****
police officers? I am pleased to note that we have a race action plan that we are
a race action plan that we are working with and it is really
important we recruit fantastic people and we represent the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
communities that we serve. The Minister said there is an extra billion pounds coming into
14:58
Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
extra billion pounds coming into policing this year, however, not one
penny of that billion will go to Northern Ireland. Because policing is a devolved matter. Given that the Northern Ireland policing budget is
very significantly eroded by paying out for the dealing with legacy in
Northern Ireland, when will the government create ring fenced
funding to deal with the situation in Northern Ireland which will then
in Northern Ireland which will then allow Northern Ireland's police to serve the community in the way in serve the community in the way in which they wish to do so, properly staffed and properly resourced.
14:59
Baroness Blower (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
I will pass that question onto
the Northern Ireland Secretary who will be responsible for legacy
issues and write to the noble Lady.
14:59
Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
The government is taking all of the issues very seriously, across the criminal justice system, I
wonder if my noble friend agrees there is a slight risk that
everything might not be dealt with entirely coherently and does he agree with the voices... Many voices
agree with the voices... Many voices in this chamber and beyond, what is needed is a Royal Commission on the
whole criminal justice system as promised by the last government but not delivered. not delivered.
15:00
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
Well, we are a government of action and I and a Minister of action, I am already getting going.
For me, what is important, we have
had the independent review which we will hopefully talk about shortly, and the Levinson review ongoing, they are significant reviews and we
will implement the reforms quickly.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Second oral question. I beg leave to adjourn question standing in my name on the Order
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Paper. It is essential that financial penalties are collected and
penalties are collected and enforced, the tribunal service is using robust methods to do so,
15:00
Baroness Levitt (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
using robust methods to do so, including taking money from seizing
goods. They can be sent to prison
goods. They can be sent to prison
In 20 2324 financial penalties were collected at great rates. The government is investing in updated
government is investing in updated IT systems, and is already planning legislative changes which will reform the confiscation order regime.
15:01
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
I thank the Minister for the
answer. In March 2024, there were
£4.4 billion of unpaid criminal court fines, compensation orders and
surcharges. Does the Minister agree that steps should be taken urgently to deal with this unacceptable
situation, which is grossly unfair on those who do actually pay up and
leads to scepticism in the judiciary and society at large the effectiveness of non-custodial
**** Possible New Speaker ****
sentences? I thank my noble friend for the
supplementary question. Of the £4.4 billion which she referred to, £2.7
billion which she referred to, £2.7 billion is confiscation orders. And
billion is confiscation orders. And of that figure, £1.2 billion is purely interest full stop interest
purely interest full stop interest is paid at 8% on the confiscation order amount. There are legislative
order amount. There are legislative changes which are in the Crime and
changes which are in the Crime and Policing Bill which is currently in the other place.
I think it is worth
the other place. I think it is worth pointing out to my noble friend that in existing legislation there are
in existing legislation there are only very limited circumstances where a Crown Court can judicially
where a Crown Court can judicially cancel and and order and it contains
cancel and and order and it contains no powers to enter confiscation
order which means it accrues over the years including the interest. With respect to financial penalties,
the picture is very different.
Over a five year period, 80% of all
a five year period, 80% of all financial penalties, of orb finds a
financial penalties, of orb finds a means, are collected. And that figure of 80% has remained flat over
figure of 80% has remained flat over the last few years. So while I accept that the overall number is increasing, I think that gives an
increasing, I think that gives an unfair picture of the current
situation, and the government is addressing the reasons why that is an unfair reflection of the position.
position.
15:03
Lord Hogan-Howe (Crossbench)
-
Copy Link
-
... Often imposed on people who
can't pay them. One areas in which progress can be made is around criminal assets. This is usually around organised crime, is motivated
around organised crime, is motivated by profit. What the enforcement
by profit. What the enforcement
by profit. What the enforcement agency is having forensic accountants, people can actually trace assets, with often complex
trace assets, with often complex financial arrangements. The SSN had
one as did Police Scotland was up can you tell us how many forensic accountants there are? People might not know that police keep half of
not know that police keep half of the cash they seize, and 15% of other assets seized, not for
other assets seized, not for themselves, but for the purpose for which they were formed.
which they were formed.
15:04
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
I thank the noble Lord for that question. It is worth just saying that if somebody fails to pay a fine
and they are imprisoned for that failure to pay, the file is written
off. However, if somebody fails to
pay a compensation order and they are sent to prison, the compensation order amount is not written off so
they are different. The other point which I think is worth making which
goes to the point he makes about the work of forensic accountants, is a lot of the assets which confiscation orders are applied to our hidden
orders are applied to our hidden assets.
So there is an estimate, an informed guess if I put it like
informed guess if I put it like that, of what the amount is when making that confiscation order. But
making that confiscation order. But I take the point that the noble Lord
I take the point that the noble Lord makes it his question. If I can find anything in terms of the number of
anything in terms of the number of forensic accountants to give the advice to the court I will write to
him.
Took
Issue whether embassies across London only £150 million in unpaid
fines and charges was the under the Vienna Convention embassies are exempt from taxes but not from these fines and charges. What will the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
government do about it? What the government is going to do about it is right to the noble
15:06
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (Liberal Democrat)
-
Copy Link
-
do about it is right to the noble Lord. I know that this issue comes
up very regularly for if there was a simple answer to the question I'm sure it would have been found. It is
an issue, it undermines confidence in the parking fines system, it
undermines confidence within the wider unity of certain groups not
paying their fines. It is a serious issue and I understand that. When there is more I can say I will write to him. to him.
15:06
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
... Many financial penalties go uncollected for sub does the noble
Lord agree that we are in respect of
such offenders imposing far too many financial penalties? Shouldn't we be making more use of community service
and the Probation Services help in those cases where there is no hope
**** Possible New Speaker ****
of collecting payment? Very interesting question. One which I used to grapple with very
which I used to grapple with very regularly when I was in Westminster. What's the noble Lord is asking the
What's the noble Lord is asking the sentence to do is increase the sentence from a fine to a community
15:07
The Earl of Effingham (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
sentence from a fine to a community order. To increase the sentence for certain people who are unable to pay their fines. It may be that is taken
into When sentences make that
judgement but it is inflationary solution to a problem. Nevertheless,
solution to a problem. Nevertheless, When they impose fines have to take When they impose fines have to take into account the means of those the sentence was not
15:07
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
There is £5 billion worth of bitcoin cryptocurrency in government
accounts. Please allow me to repeat
that. £5 billion, which is actually the government's bank account. So I'm going to ask a similar question
to the one that Lord Lamont asked to the Chancellor of the Exchequer four
months ago which is, what other
governments plans for this windfall?
15:08
Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
I don't know the answer to that
question. £5 million, if it is in the government's accounts and how
the government's accounts and how free they are to use that money. If there is anything more I can add to there is anything more I can add to that I answer I will write to him.
15:08
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
When my noble friend write to the
noble Lord opposite about unpaid parking fines were embassies in London, would you also write to me
London, would you also write to me including my letter the details of unpaid congestion charges, also by
embassies in London? That is an amount which is escalating almost
amount which is escalating almost out of sight. And this is not a tax, this is a payment for services provided in London.
15:08
Lord Sikka (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
If I am able to find those
figures, I will indeed write to my noble friend.
noble friend.
15:09
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
Since 2018, they have been wealth
orders issued on seven, and not a single penny of 12 has been recovered since 2019 this seems to
undermine the government's defences against Unexplained Wealth Order illicit financial flows was top Can the minister explain whether
anything has changed since the Criminal Finances Act was introduced
in 2017?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I thank my noble friend for asking that question. I think the
asking that question. I think the figures he quoted reflect how difficult it is to actually track
15:09
Lord Vallance of Balham, Minister of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
difficult it is to actually track down the money when criminals are hiding the money, it is intensive
work, and it is something which I personally received presentations
on. The issue is one of resource and
to some extent. Certainly there is no lack of will to pursue criminals
who have unexplained wealth, and
**** Possible New Speaker ****
they need to be tracked down and charged as appropriate. Third Oral Question.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Third Oral Question. I beg leave to ask the question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Paper. UK has a world leading science
**** Possible New Speaker ****
UK has a world leading science base supported by some of the top universities and research institutions. And offers stages
15:10
Viscount Stansgate (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
institutions. And offers stages fellowships and professorships through UKRI. As the Integration
White Paper sets out, when I go further in ensuring that the very highly including top scientists,
researchers, opportunities to come to the UK and access our targeted
routes for the brightest and best global talent. We will set out details in due course.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I would rather like to think that the Minister's reply does not go quite as far as he personally would
15:11
Lord Vallance of Balham, Minister of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
quite as far as he personally would want to see. In America, the Trump Administration is mounting an attack on universities and scientific
research, but that is a matter for them. For us it is an opportunity of
an unparalleled nature and we must grasp it. Can the government not develop proposals that would attract
and encourage and facilitate not just talented individuals whole research groups who can come and do their work in the UK, in
universities around the country, and would my noble friend not agree that
this would offer the prospect of a brain gain of immeasurable potential
**** Possible New Speaker ****
for future growth? I thank my noble friend. It has always been the friend that we have
always been the friend that we have been the beneficiaries of brain gain full stop we have been attractive to overseas researchers and the top
overseas researchers and the top class for many years. Indeed one third of our Nobel Prize winner's are first or second generation
are first or second generation
immigrants. For 2025/26, UKRI has
15:12
Lord Clement-Jones (Liberal Democrat)
-
Copy Link
-
immigrants. For 2025/26, UKRI has roughly £770 million for talent funding of which £170 million is for
future leader fellowships. I do think there is an opportunity, as always is, to attract people from
overseas to the UK. Both individuals
and groups. Indeed there are mechanisms in place to do so. I'm looking very carefully at what further mechanisms can be put in
place to make sure that we remain a country that attracts the very
**** Possible New Speaker ****
brightest and best. ... The White Paper expresses the ambition to attract top global
15:12
Lord Vallance of Balham, Minister of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
ambition to attract top global talent including scientists measures such as the increased skills charge
alongside high UK visa costs and the challenging context of flat cash
real term cuts in research funding create barriers to recruitment. The
government seems not to be very clear whether it wants to attract international scientists or not. Don't we need a proper long-term
plan, of increasing investment to maintain the U.K.'s research leadership and attract talent?
leadership and attract talent?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The current SR period has £20.4 billion, the highest it has been.
billion, the highest it has been. The big thing is about talent attraction, that announced in the White Paper was geared towards that
White Paper was geared towards that Global Talent visa, so the level of highly people who can bring great
highly people who can bring great value added to this country was in the skilled worker visa area, what has happened is the desire to increase the threshold for that to
15:13
Lord Tyrie (Non-affiliated)
-
Copy Link
-
increase the threshold for that to aim for more qualified and talented people. In terms of the high talent
end of the system, there are very clear measures in the Integration White Paper to try to get those
systems better and faster. In terms of the cost, the cost of visas and
indeed the health surcharge is now met on UKRI grants and Arrives and
**** Possible New Speaker ****
grants as well. The widespread support for the government planned to launch an
15:14
Lord Vallance of Balham, Minister of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
government planned to launch an initiative in this field. Could we please have a date on which this is
going to be published? Could we have clarity on whether it will target
American academics have become very unsettled by the assault on academic freedom in the United States? Could
he also tell us whether the recent announcements on immigration by the
prime minister will have any adverse consequences for what was originally
planned? As I said in answer to an earlier question, I'm very keen to
make sure I'm keen to make sure we have a robust system to attract the best talent from all over the world.
I will be making announcements about that very shortly. In terms of the
that very shortly. In terms of the Integration White Paper, the Global
Integration White Paper, the Global Talent visa rules are ones that have been pulled out as ones that will become easier, they will be facilitated to make this happen. And
facilitated to make this happen. And another eyeless areas as well. So in terms of the highly skilled individuals we need, both for the
individuals we need, both for the service sector and for that tech sector and the companies, I think
sector and the companies, I think there are measures in the White Paper that make that easier.
Paper that make that easier.
Is my noble friend aware of the large number of charities that
support research that bring overseas senior academics to the UK? We
mentioned the Royal Society Wilson Fellowships, and scientific group in Israel, and there are a large number of others was to contribute
of others was to contribute
of others was to contribute
**** Possible New Speaker ****
There are a number of schemes. Over 200 million of funding goes to
Over 200 million of funding goes to the National academies to support core activities, the vast majority is spent on research and talent schemes, and 400 million was given
schemes, and 400 million was given to the Royal Society and Royal
Academy engineering for their specific fellowship schemes in terms of an endowment. The Faraday discovery Fellowship and engineers from the Green Futures Fellowship,
from the Green Futures Fellowship, there are many challenges which contribute and we are fortunate to
contribute and we are fortunate to have a charities, including bottom trust, which provide substantial
**** Possible New Speaker ****
funding for fellowship schemes. Other countries have been very
quick to act decisively in light of the severe by the Trump administration to US science
administration to US science budgets. Is it not a real danger of
UK falling behind, is it not something that should be addressed
urgently.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I am going to reiterate the point I made, it is important we make schemes available to people from all over the world, it is not about
over the world, it is not about targeting a specific country, we will do so, we are working on schemes at the moment to make attractive offers to individuals and
attractive offers to individuals and groups. This is an important area,
15:17
Viscount Camrose (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
groups. This is an important area, they have been many approaches to universities already, for people wanting to base themselves here, it
is important we do have a system that is sustainable and effective in making sure that researchers can
work in what is a world-class system. system.
15:17
Lord Vallance of Balham, Minister of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
Whether they are homegrown or imported, it is clear we will need
more researchers in this country. Equally increasingly, we are competing internationally for
research talent. What, therefore,
the assessment of our overall net attractiveness to researchers right
now and how does the government plan
**** Possible New Speaker ****
to monitor this going forward? An estimated 17% of RND workers
**** Possible New Speaker ****
An estimated 17% of RND workers in the UK were non-UK. In that year,
in the UK were non-UK. In that year, seven% were EU nationals and 10% were non-EU. In the University
were non-EU. In the University sector, about 37%, on top of research and teaching in
universities, who are non-EU nationals. And about 25% of the life sciences workforce was born outside
15:18
Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
sciences workforce was born outside the UK. There are many people we need, we always have needed them, we will need them, and we are
monitoring, carefully, how these
numbers are evolving. As part of the immigration white paper, the labour market evidence group being set up,
which is comprised of the industrial strategy advisory, Department for
strategy advisory, Department for Work and Pensions, Skills England and the Migration Advisory Committee, to make sure that we have Committee, to make sure that we have a clear view of future needs.
15:19
Lord Vallance of Balham, Minister of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
Would the Minister talk to his colleagues in the Home Office to
ensure that the graduate route, which was established some years
ago, and provides universities in the UK with academic talent and scientists from other countries, and
I can think particularly of the University of Bath last, where it
has helped and assisted by students. And scientists from Southeast Asia.
Will he ensure that graduate route is not minimised or undermined in
any way?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I thank the noble Lady for her question, in answer to the first part, I can confirm the Home Office
part, I can confirm the Home Office Minister heard that. Yes, they will be aware. The graduate visa system
be aware. The graduate visa system is an important system, the changes in immigration white paper,
in immigration white paper, effectively, reduce the amount of time after a graduate has finished
15:20
Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
their course, from 24 months to 18 months, to get a job. The reason for
that is clear, to try and make sure people get these jobs that are
highly and continued that rather than jobs that are not highly skilful. This is an important route, worth noting, the number of graduate
visas increased from 23 to 24...
2023 to 2024, by 49%. This is a
rapidly growing area, it is important to get this right and make sure that we get these people into
**** Possible New Speaker ****
high skilled jobs. I beg leave to ask the question standing in my name on the Order
standing in my name on the Order Paper to ask the question standing in my name on Order Paper and declare my interest.
15:21
Baroness Altmann (Non-affiliated)
-
Copy Link
-
**** Possible New Speaker ****
declare my interest. My Lords, it is clear there is a
desperate humanitarian aid into Gaza, it is hard to see how the proposal to distribute aid through
private companies would help the scale of the need, protect civilians, aid workers and be
consistent with principles. The UN and humanitarian NGOs have worked
with courage and determination to deliver aid into Gaza since the conflict began. These organisations
uphold humanitarian peoples and deliver a system that assistance to
**** Possible New Speaker ****
those who need it. I thank the noble Lady for her
answer, a little disappointing to hear she does not join me in
hear she does not join me in welcoming this proposal. Which should help at least 1.2 million people initially and up to 2 million
15:22
Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
people initially and up to 2 million later on. To receive humanitarian
aid under an independent mechanism. Does she agree with me, bypassing Hamas to stop them hijacking the
aid, is important? Especially in
light of onerous failure to do so and reports such as the Washington
Institute of near East policy, which shows that exploiting hijacked aid has generated at least half £1
trillion, 500 million, for terrorist operations.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The blocking of aid into Gaza by Israel has caused enormous
Israel has caused enormous suffering. And we are aware of the
suffering. And we are aware of the allegations that she refers to. We encourage Israel to share that information, share the evidence,
information, share the evidence, with the UN and NGOs. There is not any evidence that we have seen that
any evidence that we have seen that shows there is a systematic
diversion to Hamas, and we are unable to verify allegations through direct monitoring.
The UK provided
15:23
Lord Browne of Ladyton (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
direct monitoring. The UK provided aid ensures all mechanisms are in place but the situation at the
moment is dire. One in five people are facing starvation. There is aid
available to get into Gaza now if we can unblock those roots, the surest
way through is a ceasefire, release the hostages and get aid in. That is
essential if we are to protect and save lives.
15:23
Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
My noble friend, the Leader of the House, is she in a position to
remove the veil from the recently found Gaza humanitarian foundation.
Less than 2.5 months since this
company was put together. Could she tell us which private contractors are being set up to take the place
of the United Nations and its partners? And are they capable of providing not just the scale but the
diversity of aid that the UN and its partners would be able to provide to
the Gazans if the Israelis lifted the blockade?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I am not able to satisfy my noble
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I am not able to satisfy my noble friend on those points, I do not have that information, we have urged the Israeli government to share that information, to make an assessment
information, to make an assessment would be very difficult. At least we are ready to work alongside Israel,
15:24
Lord Purvis of Tweed (Liberal Democrat)
-
Copy Link
-
are ready to work alongside Israel, UN and other pop to -- other partners to ensure that aid is
delivered. We have to ensure they have the expertise to get the aid in
and the safety of both aid workers
as well. Over 400 aid workers have died providing humanitarian aid, it is one of the most dangerous part of the world to supply aid to stop I
think we should -- to supply 82. I
think we should express our attitude and thank those who put their lives
at risk.
The women and girls of Gaza have had such brutality inflicted on them. Now to submit to the indignity
them. Now to submit to the indignity of having to queue up, to profiteering mercenaries, hired by a
profiteering mercenaries, hired by a shadowy organisation, established in Switzerland, which will be operating
not under any humanitarian standards, not under any international mandate, and with no accountability mechanisms whatsoever
accountability mechanisms whatsoever to receive sanitary food and water
to receive sanitary food and water and medicine. What is the government doing to stop this terrible idea?
15:25
Baroness Deech (Crossbench)
-
Copy Link
-
At the moment, it is an idea, we have not seen evidence of it going
forward. I have to say, he is right on the point that humanitarian principles have to be consistent across every area that aid is
delivered. What I can tell him, today we are convening at the UN Security Council in New York, they
are meeting at the moment, to look
at what can be done to deal with what is an appalling situation in Gaza.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The simple, straightforward solution is for the hostages to be
15:26
Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
solution is for the hostages to be released and, note, we can see with our own eyes that the hostages are amongst the least well fed people in
Gaza. Why is the government always
so quick to believe Hamas and the United Nations organisations? Why does the government not to share the
widespread scepticism about Hamas, which is stockpiling the aid,
preventing lorries going in and why does the government not note how
**** Possible New Speaker ****
UNRWA has been infiltrated by Hamas? I would hope the noble Lady would
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I would hope the noble Lady would have had my first comment, the priority of getting hostages out, releasing the hostages, that is
releasing the hostages, that is
clear. Certainly, last week... Recently, we saw one hostage released he was a shadow of his
released he was a shadow of his former self. There is a lot of suffering, both the hostages who have been kidnapped, the families of
have been kidnapped, the families of those killed from October 7 and the
those killed from October 7 and the people of Gaza and the crucial thing has to be to get aid in, get the hostages out, but if there is a ceasefire, only then can we talk
15:27
Baroness Morris of Bolton (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
**** Possible New Speaker ****
ceasefire, only then can we talk about the future and see what can be done for the long-standing. Last week, the Palestinian
15:27
Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Last week, the Palestinian authority declared a famine in Gaza. It was not caused by a flood, it was
It was not caused by a flood, it was not caused by a drought or any natural causes, it is entirely man-
natural causes, it is entirely man- made. I welcome what the noble Baroness said about the conference
being held next week, can the UK government ensure that we point out
that there are aid workers already on the ground in Gaza who has been
working for years, ceaselessly, to help the Palestinians, and they
**** Possible New Speaker ****
should very much be part of the solution. The noble Lady is right, this is
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The noble Lady is right, this is not... Different aid is not something you can do on a whim, these are people who are
these are people who are experienced, who have expertise and the -- and note the areas on the ground. When I referred to the
ground. When I referred to the conference, the 1 Taking Pl today in
New York, but she is right, there is aid at the borders that could be delivered. People, one in five of the population, are facing
the population, are facing starvation.
It is critical, the
starvation. It is critical, the sooner we can get the aid in the, the quickest way of doing so is to stop blocking the aid select can be
stop blocking the aid select can be delivered to those who are in desperate, dire need of it.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
desperate, dire need of it. Will the Leader of the House
except that the sidelining of trusted aid agencies and the militarisation of aid under the
militarisation of aid under the scheme will lead to large parts of Gaza where the most vulnerable and least mobile people live are without
**** Possible New Speaker ****
supplies. The noble Lady says there is a
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The noble Lady says there is a scheme in place, I'm not sure there is another scheme, there are
is another scheme, there are discussions about it but I have not seen any details. But there cannot
be any aid mechanism that does not have delivering humanitarian aid as
15:29
Lord Callanan (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
have delivering humanitarian aid as its sole priority. It cannot deliver political or military objectives, it is there to help civilians. That
will be the priority. If there is not action, almost immediately, people are going to die. Women and
people are going to die. Women and children in Gaza are facing loss of
life now. The figure that one in five people in Gaza are facing
starvation. That is just horrendous. Yes, the hostages must be released, we must get aid into Gaza, the
we must get aid into Gaza, the ceasefire must take place and then we can look at a long time span of peace in the region.
15:30
Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
One of the first things this government did, was to resume
funding for UNRWA which had been suspended by the previous government and this followed proving
allegations that under employees were members of Hamas and participated in the October 7 Mathers car. Nobody disagrees with
the idea that aid to get to those who need their allegations that have been proven that Hamas has been
stealing the aid. Can the noble Lady give assurance to the House that no British taxpayer aid has been diverted to Hamas?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Yes, we did resume funding for the very purpose of having people on the ground, people with knowledge
the ground, people with knowledge and expertise, to get aid in as quickly as possible save lives. I
15:30
Business of the House
-
Copy Link
quickly as possible save lives. I said in the beginning, the UK
funded... All of our funded aid looks at every possible mechanism to ensure the aid gets to where it is
needed which is most vulnerable. We will always do that and DfT we can
will always do that and DfT we can
**** Possible New Speaker ****
They have passed the Border Security, Asylum and Immigration Bill, to which they desire the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Bill, to which they desire the agreement of your Lordships. My Lords, the Border Security,
**** Possible New Speaker ****
My Lords, the Border Security, Asylum and Immigration Bill, I beg
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Asylum and Immigration Bill, I beg to move that this bill be read a first time. This will be read a first time.
As many are of that opinion say, "Content". Of the contrary, "Not
**** Possible New Speaker ****
content". The contents have it. This may be a convenient moment for the Lordships who wish to leave
for the Lordships who wish to leave the chamber to do so, as I said
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Third Third reading Third reading of Third reading of the Third reading of the Norwich
Livestock Market Bill.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Livestock Market Bill. My Lords I beg to move to move that this bill be read 1/3 time.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
that this bill be read 1/3 time. The question is that this will be read 1/3 time. As many are of that opinion say, "Content". Of the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
contrary, "Not content". The contents have it. I beg to move this bill do now
15:34
Urgent Question Repeat: The failure of the prison estate to protect staff from serious and sustained violence by high-risk inmates.
-
Copy Link
**** Possible New Speaker ****
pass. The question is that this bill do now pass. As many are of that
now pass. As many are of that opinion say, "Content". Of the contrary, "Not content". The
contrary, "Not content". The contents have it. My Lords we now come to an instrument previously debated in Grand Committee,
15:34
Lord Sandhurst (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
Infrastructure Planning (Onshore Wind and Solar Generation) Order.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath. I beg to move the Motion standing
**** Possible New Speaker ****
in my name on the order paper. The question is that this motion be agreed to. As many are of that
be agreed to. As many are of that opinion say, "Content". Of the contrary, "Not content". The
contrary, "Not content". The contents have it. Question to answer on an Urgent Question asked in the
on an Urgent Question asked in the House of Commons yesterday on the protection of prison staff.
protection of prison staff.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
My Lords, on 3 April, 'The Times' reported that Islamist gangs had
created Gross dysfunction in HMP Frankland in which large numbers of convicted terrorists are held. Just
convicted terrorists are held. Just nine days later, on 12th April, the Manchester bomber, detained in the
Manchester bomber, detained in the same prison, through hot oil over a
same prison, through hot oil over a prison officer. Then, on eighth May,
the Southport killer, detained in HMP Belmarsh through boiling water
over an officer there.
Both these terrible attacks work by radical
Islamist in category A prisons. My questions are these, what steps will
questions are these, what steps will be taken to isolate such prisoners from access to such dangerous
from access to such dangerous substances? Will tasers be issued in
substances? Will tasers be issued in category A prisons? When will stab vests be provided? vests be provided?
15:35
Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
My Lords, with the prison
population at 98.9% last month, with a 19% increase in assaults on prison
officers in the last year, up 19%, and a shortage of prison officers, it is a bagful of problems for the
Minister. I wonder whether he has
got an emergency plan for the set of problems? What will he be doing to ensure that our prison officers are
safe, and also that there are sufficient numbers of them to be
**** Possible New Speaker ****
able to do it? Like all noble Lords, I was shocked to hear about the serious
shocked to hear about the serious assaults against prison officers at
assaults against prison officers at HMP Belmarsh and HMP Frankland. It is a sorry state, and we will not tolerate any violence against prison
officers. Prisoners were violent towards staff will face the full
towards staff will face the full consequences of their actions. The specific incident at HMP Belmarsh is subject to police investigation, so we are unable to comment further at
we are unable to comment further at this stage.
In the past few weeks, since the attack at HMP Frankland we
15:36
The Lord Bishop of Gloucester (Bishops)
-
Copy Link
-
since the attack at HMP Frankland we have taken a number of steps to improve prison officer safety including trailing tasers, suspending the use of self cooked
areas for certain prisoners and reviewing whether protective body armour should be available to frontline staff. I would also add
that we have a zero tolerance policy towards extremist gang activity prisons was not staff clampdown
swiftly on any threatening behaviour and our staff turn up to work to
help people turn their lives around not to be insulted.
15:37
Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
Given that prison staff are working such a wide range of
prisoners, from those who are the most violent to the many who are imprisoned for repeated low level
offending, many of whom with drug addictions, and yet the training for prison staff is woefully short, a matter of weeks, and I think people
would be shocked to hear how short it is full stop what is being done to expand the training and
development, not only to the staff of your valued but so that they are developed and equipped to deal with
**** Possible New Speaker ****
such a wide range of situations? The interest in prison officer
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The interest in prison officer training, what was clear was the short period of time the county have
short period of time the county have to learn very detailed and complex skills of the job is too short. So I
15:38
Lord Hastings of Scarisbrick (Crossbench)
-
Copy Link
-
skills of the job is too short. So I have launched a trial in London where we are spending, giving far more time because I believe we
should have a 12 month training program not a matter of weeks. And it also should give officers the
it also should give officers the time to learn the more subtle skills of being an officer. One of the
of being an officer. One of the things that was clear to me is one of the best ways for us to tackle the problems in our Prison and
the problems in our Prison and Probation Service is to ask people to do the job.
15:38
Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
We agree that tax offices are reprehensible and cannot be
accepted. Would it not be a very progressive step to mass provide further protective and defence
equipment for offices across the board other than the category A
state? As the Minster will know, good relations between prisoners and officers will not be enhanced if it
is likely that the possibility of defensive equipment could be used in situations where it is plainly
unnecessary, and conversation de- escalates tension.
15:39
Lord Bellingham (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
My noble friend is right is the best way to de-escalates tension in
a prison is to understand the complexities and knowing prisoners. What is also clear is that if you
look at the tools that are available to prison officers, the best one is
to prison officers, the best one is their mouth. We also need to look at what we can do to protect our staff because our staff need protecting
because our staff need protecting some of our establishment we are dealing with some very complex and dangerous prisoners.
dangerous prisoners.
15:39
Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
One of the main causes of violence in prisons is the Radio
Liberty of illegal drugs. His boss, the Secretary of State mentioned the other day that it was her intention
to try and rid our presence of drugs by the end of this Parliament. Is
that realistic pledge?
15:40
Lord Walney (Crossbench)
-
Copy Link
-
The noble Lord is right, drugs are a massive problem in a prisons. 49% of people arriving in prison
tell us they are addicted to drugs. We put them in prison with serious organised scribbles you make a lot
of money out of selling drugs to them. Clearly we have a problem. I'm interested in not just tackling drugs going into prisons, how we
drugs going into prisons, how we
tackle drones, but how we get people to leave prison without being addicted to drugs similarly prison
they don't go back.
15:40
Lord Timpson, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
People who have been imprisoned because of their violent radicalism, but of course the problem remains of
radicalisation within prisons once prisoners arrive on the estate. What
assessment has the Minister made in
his early months of this within the prison system and the current level
of resilience that the estate and prison officers can take in
**** Possible New Speaker ****
protecting prisoners from it? Any gang member is a problem in
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Any gang member is a problem in our prisons. What we need to do is to make sure that we identify where they are and do all we can to limit
15:41
Legislation: Employment Rights Bill - committee stage (day 3) - part one
-
Copy Link
they are and do all we can to limit their activities. One of the things that we also know is that the best
way of dealing with these complex people is by trusting the staff and expertise at dealing with it. We
need to make sure we give them every tool at their disposal to make sure
that these people are not dangerous to themselves, to other prisoners,
**** Possible New Speaker ****
and importantly, to staff. House to be again in committee on
the Employment Rights Bill. Baroness Jones of Whitchurch.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Jones of Whitchurch. My Lords, I beg to move that the House now resolvers of into a committee on the bill.
committee on the bill.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
committee on the bill. The question is that the House resolve itself into a committee upon the bill. As many are of that
the bill. As many are of that opinion say, "Content". Of the contrary, "Not content". The
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Lord Lord Sharpe Lord Sharpe of Lord Sharpe of Epsom. My Lords, I rise to speak to
**** Possible New Speaker ****
My Lords, I rise to speak to
amendment 71 A, 71B and 75 standing in my name. According to latest statistics, and appear employees
fell by 33,000 in April, or 106,000 over the year. The number of job
vacancies also fell. Wage growth has slowed. This evidence suggests that the OBR was right and the provisions in this bill are already creating
net negative impact. The Chartered Institute of Personnel and
Development latest survey was widely cited at the weekend was it confirms that employers confidence is at the
lowest level since the pandemic.
And one quarter of employers are planning to make redundancies in the next quarter. Their economist was
quoted as saying, " Employment
Rights Bill is landing in a fundamentally different landscape to the one expected when it formed part
of Labour's manifesto last year. " This picture was also confirmed in KPMG's recruitment and employment
Confederation report. Recruitment activity across the UK continues to weaken at the start of the second
quarter. The chief executive of the RAC Neil Carberry has said it is a time for real changes to address
employer fears to boost hiring full stop sensible timetable and practical changes that due to
redtape firms complying with the bill will go a long way towards becoming nervous about taking a
chance on someone.
Last week the noble Lord called for this bill to
go on vacation because we need to get it. This raft of new statistics
proves his prescience. And perhaps the vacation ought to be permanent.
Instead we are being asked to consider further obligations to employers changes to Statutory Sick
Pay. A number of businesses across sectors and made it clear that while they support the principle of Statutory Sick Pay, they are concerned about the rate and
structure being proposed. Many have called for the rate of Statutory Sick Pay to be set at 60% rather
than 80% as a more sustainable and
proportionate figure.
The government claims to have consulted widely with businesses, with trade unions, and with various stakeholder groups, to
try to strike a fair balance. But based on the data and concerns
15:45
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
raised, we believe the right answer particularly for the initial period absence is 60%. To look at some of the other evidence, the British
the other evidence, the British Chamber of Commerce 2024 workplace survey, 54% of respondents said they
survey, 54% of respondents said they would be negatively impacted by the proposal for Statutory Sick Pay entitlement from day one. That is a
entitlement from day one. That is a clear warning sign that the proposed structure may have unintended
structure may have unintended consequences.
Further, in a survey with the London Chamber of Commerce,
with the London Chamber of Commerce, 38% of firms said they would have to freeze hiring as a direct result of
freeze hiring as a direct result of the Statutory Sick Pay changes. 30% expect a reduction in profits, and
expect a reduction in profits, and 33% anticipate lower wage increases for their existing staff. These are not abstract figures, they point to
a real-world economic decisions, that is being made in response to uncertainty and increased cost pressures.
The government has
rightly emphasised its goal of encouraging people back into the workforce, particularly after the long-term disruption caused by the
long-term disruption caused by the pandemic. We obviously support the same but to do so effectively we
must create the right environment. And support employees when they are genuinely unwell whilst giving employers the confidence affects
ability to hire. Amendment 70 1A
Amendment 71 A6 to do exactly that. This amendment proposes the Statutory Sick Pay should be paid at 60% for the first three qualifying
days, and raised to 80% thereafter.
This reflects the reality that short-term absence imposes different challenges on business than long-
term illness. It also ensures that
those who are acutely unwell and suffering from long-term conditions still receive the full financial support they need and deserve. This approach reflects the principle that
incentives should be tailored are not uniform. Not one-size-fits-all.
We need a more flexible and weighted
approach to sick pay and one that reflects the real operational pressures businesses face while maintaining adequate protections for workers. We believe this amendment
strike that balance.
It is also worth noting that during early discussions around the bill, the
government itself indicated that a range between 60% and 80% was under consideration. This amendment is therefore not a radical departure
from the government's own thinking
from the government's own thinking
I would also turn the attention of the House to concerns raised by UK
Hospitality. Take, for example, the
pub sector, which employs over 600,000 people across full-time and
part-time roles. The latest Statutory Sick Pay proposals are
predicted to add up words of 10 million to this sector, which is already struggling.
Currently, some
sickness days unpaid duty employees falling below the lower earnings
limit. However, stricter reporting requirements are likely to increase
the costs even further. I ought to remind the House that the government's own impact assessment
states, and I quote, overall, we have seen the direct increase in
cost as a direct transfer to employees in the terms of sector pay and is neutral on a net basis but
will improve equality. The wider impact are deemed uncertain given
the difficulty of predicting behavioural impacts.
Remember, this
impact assessment was conducted in a
fundamentally different landscape. We appreciate that the government
might not see amendment 71 with a flat 60% rate that is workable, that is why we are offering amendment 70
1A 71 AS a constructive alternative.
It recognises that long-term sickness requires stronger protection whilst addressing employer concerns about short-term
absence. It provides incentives for people to return to work, encourages
the genuine use of sick leave and gives employers confidence to invest
in their workforce.
Turning to amendment 75, as I mentioned, the government's own impact assessment
has stated that small businesses will face a disproportionate cost as a result of measures. The 5 billion
figure is, in our view, likely to be
an understatement and it entirely relates to increased administer burdens whilst failing to calculate
the knock-on effect on business costs and hiring behaviour. Particularly the impact of making it
more expensive to employ people. The impact assessment goes so far as to admit that the net effect on society
is, and I quote, uncertain, due to uncertainty on behavioural impacts.
What a damning phrase, that level of ambiguity is troubling, especially
when the stakes are so high for the smallest enterprises. So, we make no
apology for repeating that there is much too much uncertainty in this Bill, which weighs heavily on Small
and medium sized enterprises. This concern extends to the proposals regarding SSP. Let me be clear, we
do not oppose SSP, on the contrary,
we recognise its importance. It is critical that workers have financial support during periods of sickness
and that is a matter of basic decency and fairness.
However, the reason for amendment 75 is grounded
in magnetism. Small business cannot
plan, budget or comply. Without that clarity, we are asking them to commit to obligations that might
make them structurally unequipped. We must not lose sight of the fact that small businesses form the
that small businesses form the backbone of our economy, they are not large corporations with legal teams. They operate on time margins
teams. They operate on time margins and the need certainty, predict ability and time to repair.
I beg to move. move.
15:50
Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
Amendment proposed, page 11,
clause 37, leave out lines 21 to 24 and insert the words as mentioned on the Marshalled list.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I rise to speak to amendment 72.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I rise to speak to amendment 72. I am grateful for the support and the safe sick pay campaign and
the safe sick pay campaign and Health Foundation for their help. The amendment is a probing one. From
The amendment is a probing one. From a different perspective than the
a different perspective than the noble Lord. To which the bill makes very welcome improvements. Nevertheless, this scheme will fail
to provide adequate protection. Especially for workers on low
Especially for workers on low incomes who belong to marginalised groups.
The amendment requires
groups. The amendment requires detectives to review the rate of SSP prior to this year's budget to ensure that nobody is worse off as a result of the otherwise positive
result of the otherwise positive changes made in the Bill. Starting with the latter, I appreciate the time that my noble friend, the
time that my noble friend, the Minister, gave myself and my noble friend, Lady O'Grady, to discuss the unintended consequences of the
unintended consequences of the welcome removal of the Lower Earnings Limit and the replacement by the rule that employees will
receive 80% of the average weekly
earnings or the flat rate SSP, whichever is lower.
The problem is, the new rule means that a small
number of low-paid employees will be worse off than now. Because of the welcome removal of the waiting
period, the loss will be limited to those of work sick for more than three weeks. According to DWP, we
are talking about 13% of all
sickness absences. I accept this is a small proportion, but by
definition, we are talking about people with more serious illnesses. In the fact sheet, the DBP gives an
example of a cleaner working 11 hours across five days at national living wage, takes three months off
for cancer treatment, who would lose
£65 in total.
In SSP. They assumed the cleaner could make up some of it in Universal Credit. What if the cleaner was married to somebody
whose wages are not low enough to
qualify for UC? She would lose some of her independent income, and £65 might not sound like that much, to
those on decent incomes, but it can make a real difference to somebody
on a low income, particularly where a worker's earnings are not shared
fairly within the family. It is women in particular who are likely to lose out as a result of this unintended consequence.
I understand
why the government has rejected the alternative that has been put
forward. But I would ask them to look again at the proposal made by a number of trade unions and charities
that the formula uses a 95% rather
than 80% replacement rate. We seem to be the most straightforward way of dealing with this. I believe it is incumbent on the committee to
come up with a solution to ensure that nobody is made worse off as a
result of the intended consequences, of the otherwise positive change made by the Bill.
After all, the
Plan to Make Work Pay, we will ensure the new system provides fair
and replacement for people earning below the current rate. Turning to
the rate of SSP, the final report of
the commission noted that the expansion of SSP and the bill does not address the fundamental issue,
Statutory Sick Pay remains too low to provide meaningful financial
security during illness. Last year, the work and pension site with
concluded that SSP does not currently provide adequate protection for those who most need
protecting from financial hardship during periods of absence.
It
consequently fails to perform the primary function providing a basic
level of income protection. £118.75, it represents an earning replacement
rate of only 19% for an employee on
average earnings for 20% on a full- time Minimum Wage Act. One of the lowest rates in the OECD. The
interim reported the keep Britain working review pointed out our
European counterparts pay around 70 to 80% of an employee's wage when
they ask. The low rate in the UK all
too often spells real hardship and financial insecurity.
Especially for lower paid workers, women, disabled
workers, and members of racially
minority communities. Analysis by
Citizens Advice shows that 4/5 households in the bottom 3 deciles would not be able to afford the essentials such as bills and food
after four weeks on SSP. The Work and Pensions Committee noted there was almost complete agreement among
witnesses to its enquiry that it was too low and not enough to live on.
This included 90% of members surveyed by the professionals.
Cancer charities have wanted to how far cancer patients for below the
minimum standard needed to live a dignified life at a socially acceptable standard as measured by
my colleagues at Loughborough
University.
In a briefing, the quote a patient with leukaemia who says what people don't realise is that
costs also go up when you get cancer. A huge drop in income, that
he was not able to replace the benefits, the result was that he wrote he was an emotional wreck and
it was a very bad time. Mind found that two in three people with a
mental health program -- problem surveyed faced financial
difficulties. The court mentioned in on SSP which affected the ability to
pay bills, which hardly helps the recovery.
Indeed, 3/5 of respondents believe the reduction in income, as
a result of receipt of SSP had a negative impact on the mental
health. This is illustrated by a research respondent, quoted by the
Health Foundation, if sick pay have been enough, I would have been able to return to work. But instead, my
condition worsened drastically. I ended up in the last state, mental
health wise, I have ever been in. Forcing me to claim PIP and be unemployed for the past year and
1/2.
The hardship associated with receipt of SSP, particular need for
those on low incomes can result in present years, people coming into
work when sick, where it is contagious, spreading sickness. But
for them, their workers and employers. Present years and cost
businesses 44 days lost productivity
per year. Poor sick pay and minds the objective of economic growth.
Analysis by WPI suggests improve SSP
could boost the economy by over £4 billion per year. And reduce the
pressure on the NHS.
The Health Foundation ones that inadequate SSP
can create an incentive for some workers to move into the Social Security system without a clear
route back into work. The opposite
of what government policies how to she. They point out that when workers are financially supported
during sickness absence, they are more able to recover, take part in rehabilitation and return to work safely, and sustainably. The
implications of present years am
visible during the pandemic. Which, as the Minister told the committee
last week, exposed how precarious work and life are for those on low incomes.
Many forced to choose
between the health and financial hardship. Far too many people felt that they could not afford to stay
that they could not afford to stay
at home when they were infectious. Contrary to more generous sick pay for better health outcomes. We are
told by the experts, it is only a matter of time until the next pandemic. One way that we can
prepare is by ensuring that SSP is adequate. So, my Lords, this
amendment asks government to look
again at how to ensure nobody loses out as a result of the improvements to SSP and undertake a quick review
of its levels.
Welcomed by the wide range of charities, the TUC, and
major trade unions, as well over 100... Over 180 parliamentarians,
all of whom support the safe sick pay campaign. The New Deal for
working people says unequivocally that Labour will raise Statutory Sick Pay. The amendment built on the
Ricoh assurance in the Commons from the Minister that the government would monitor how effectively the
bills performed will support employees. We do not need monitoring
to tell us that SSP is too low.
Especially in the recent enquiry. The commission for healthier lives
called for a review that will result in an increase of SSP to a fairer
level by giving businesses the time and support they need to adapt. I do hope that my noble friend, the
Minister, will be able to provide Minister, will be able to provide
16:01
Baroness Coffey (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
I would like to speak to
amendment 73 tabled in my name, and it is regarding SMEs and an SSP
rebate scheme. I have made myself a
drafting error by calling it four days, it should have been three
days. My Lords, occupational health is a key factor both in helping
people to stay in work, but also in trying to prevent some of the illnesses but also getting back into
work quickly. It has been for some
time a key part of the strategy for successful business to do that.
I'm also conscious that particular SMEs are not always well displaced
currently to access. That is why
more recent strategies, that expanding that capability has been a
key part of DWP, which the present administration has continued.
Sickness rates significantly lower in the private sector compared to the public sector. But what is
common to both is there is an increasing prevalence of the primary reason for people being off sick due
to mental well-being. I am conscious
that this is not an easy situation to often challenge or interact with
if you don't have the experience to do that.
That is why increasing occupational health is needed. Why
is occupational so relevant to this? It used to be the case that
Statutory Sick Pay you could reclaim from the government the amount of
money that you may have paid out, used to be able to get a rebate for
that Statutory Sick Pay element for businesses. I know that because I
used to fill out the claims myself when I was working in industry. Over time that had been whittled down.
But it was finally abolished in 2014.
Instead though what the government did was create a new
health and work service, which was
designed to be referred to by SMEs for people who had been ill for a
few weeks. Again, as almost a provision operated by government, facilitated by government. One of
the challenges is this is continuing to be an issue. Many particularly
small businesses believe, certainly in the submissions made to me, that
they are worried about this starting from day one of people being unwell.
As a consequence, I do think it is important that we should investigate
the opportunity to get a rebate scheme for SMEs to try and keep the
status quo as it is today. It is in the interests of government support
SMEs when we are thinking, as we have already heard, the statistics show that unfortunately payroll employment is falling full stop I
was very pleased in office that we
actually saw it increasing, and indeed, I am certain that, in
wanting the government to succeed in its ambition to get 80% employment
rate that it needs SMEs to be taking
on people to work.
For me, this Bill, I have already explained, I don't think it will help with that
but I think one modest way to go towards this in alleviating some of
the issues would be to introduce a straightforward rebate scheme for
**** Possible New Speaker ****
SMEs. I want to speak in support of my
16:04
Lord Davies of Brixton (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I want to speak in support of my noble colleague Baroness Lister, in
noble colleague Baroness Lister, in support of more being done in terms of Statutory Sick Pay. Of course I welcome the government's commitment
to strengthen Statutory Sick Pay, by removing the Lower Earnings Limit,
and removing the waiting period. But government must go further to ensure
people with mental health problems have a secure safety net when they need time off work. And a pathway
back into work when they recover.
The UK has one of the least generous
sick pay schemes in the OECD in terms of this. It forces people to
remain in work when they are unwell which risks them becoming more unwell and eventually falling out of
work. Because Statutory Sick Pay is there, people who rely on it are
often remaining going into work when they are unwell. This risks them
getting more unwell to the point that they fall out of implant altogether. So we need a sick pay system that provides real security.
Also a sick pay system that is more compassionate, and that gives people
the time they need to get better and supports them to return to when they are ready. Reforming Statutory Sick
Pay is beneficial to the economy, to
businesses, and to people with mental health problems. As my noble
friend has emphasised, presenteeism, going to work when unwell, is costing the UK economy £24 billion a
year, figures induced by Deloittes. It reduces productivity and business competitiveness, as well as
aggravating a person's illness.
Introducing a flexible Statutory Sick Pay model which allows for partial payments alongside wages
would help people to gradually return to after a period of
sickness, or allow people to reduce their hours when they need to
without being signed off completely. Not only is this beneficial for the
employer, as employees are able to return to works sooner, but it also
keeps the employee connected to their workplace, and reduces the
likelihood that they will fall out of employment altogether.
Extending the length of Statutory Sick Pay
being paid from 28 weeks to 52 weeks, will enable more people to
stay in employment, reducing rehiring costs for businesses, and
preventing people falling out of employment and needing support from
employment and needing support from the benefits system. Ultimately we need to see a higher level of
need to see a higher level of Statutory Sick Pay, and I see no reason why, when you are sick, you
reason why, when you are sick, you should get any less than the National Minimum Wage.
National Minimum Wage.
16:08
Baroness Noakes (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
... The changes to Statutory Sick Pay in this bill is the impact on
smaller businesses, which is why I support the amendments in this group in the names of my noble Friend lady
coffee and Fox which provide for
coffee and Fox which provide for
rebates. I refer to this because it clearly undoes the harms that this
bill will cause. I could not find very much data on how much
businesses actually pay in Statutory Sick Pay.
I suspect that unless an
employer is unlucky enough to get an employee that has 'Long-duration energy storage: get on with it'
sickness, most will be paid relatively little at present because
the absence is less than four days. Most sickness absence, that is what
the data does show, are for minor illnesses. These are unlikely to exceed three days. The average days
lost per worker per year in 2023,
the most recent date I could find,
was just short of eight days.
Amongst small and micro businesses, that falls to around five days. Extending that days for which
payment is made is likely to increase the number of days lost to
sickness, as the current incentive to work if the illness is mild will
simply disappear. The government say they have no idea what the
behavioural impact of the changes will be, whether they will be positive or negative. But I would be prepared to bet that there will be
far more short duration absences which will qualify for Statutory
Sick Pay than they were before.
If I
am right that most SMEs don't currently pay much in the way of Statutory Sick Pay, the changes in
this bill will straightforwardly increase their costs. An average
small business, of between 10 and 49
employees, has about 20 employees. That means the average for a small
business will be paying for at least 100 days of sickness which they
don't currently have. And that would cover, it would amount to around
£2000 in additional costs each year.
Even if no additional sick days were
taken which I doubt. That is not a huge amount per business, but it does add up to many millions of
does add up to many millions of
pounds across the whole economy. It also of course comes on top of the jobs tax and are significant
increases in the National Minimum Wage. Which leads me to the likely real consequences of this change on
top of the others. And put simply, SMEs will not be hiring workers
unless they absolutely have to.
We
can already see the remnants of this from the survey of small businesses, and in weakening labour market, my
noble friend gave an up-to-date view
on that, and this will only get worse. Furthermore, all of those groups which we as a nation wants to
get back into work, in particular
those who are long-term sick, will simply not be attractive to
employers. Any hint of an illness record in a job applicant's background will count against them
going forward.
Because no employer will want to take on the additional costs that would automatically come
with that employee. I am sure I don't need to remind the committee
that SMEs employ nearly half of the private sector workforce. Reluctance
to hire amongst SMEs will kill growth, and will kill opportunities
for many of the groups that we need to be employed in this country.
to be employed in this country. There is a simple way to solve this
There is a simple way to solve this problem, and it is set out in Amendment 73, 74, the government Amendment 73, 74, the government would be wise to go down that route.
16:12
Baroness Lawlor (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
I rise to speak in support of
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I rise to speak in support of
Amendment 71 and 71A and 71B in the name of Lord Sharpe of Epsom and to
name of Lord Sharpe of Epsom and to support Amendment 73 in the name of
support Amendment 73 in the name of Baroness Coffey an amendment 74
brought by Lord Fox. Lord Sharpe's
amendment proposed a sensible modification to clause 11. And strike a more affordable approach
strike a more affordable approach for a business paying the employee full-time not worked as well as for
the compliance and record-keeping involved.
I say more affordable rather than fair because many
rather than fair because many businesses, particularly small and micro businesses, as we continue to
micro businesses, as we continue to hear at committee, will struggle to
hear at committee, will struggle to stay afloat and keep in business, given the juggernaut of additional costs and burdens, increased
obligations imposed by this bill.
Including those on, in this clause and of course the previous clauses
that we have discussed. In clause 11, such costs are to be imposed for those below the Lower Earnings Limit
as we have heard.
These will add to
the extra costs paid by employers. They will potentially open for the problems raised in the impact assessment. The modelling for which
suggests a rosier picture for business and the available evidence warrants. But it also raises
questions of behavioural response. Indeed, this consideration was a
fundamental principle addressed in the welfare state proposals by Sir
William Beveridge in his blueprint
in 1942. With the original National Insurance act framed as it contributory scheme with strict
conditions on benefit to avoid creating perverse incentives.
Here,
the impact assessment, and this
measure which models outcomes on the basis of a variety of factors
including some unproven assumptions suggests that while there is evidence suggesting overall sickness
absence may be reduced, but on the basis of evidence considered from other countries says, it is possible
that regulation changes induced behavioural response. And that
studies from other countries have found that the incidence of sickness absences are higher when sick pay is
more generous. There could be an increased number of sickness absence
days taken due to improved financial protection.
We can read that in
whatever way we like, and we have heard different interpretations of
more generous Statutory Sick Pay. I think it is incumbent on government to consider a return to some of the
original intervals in the National Insurance system in this country,
and to think further about not
and to think further about not
There is one of the reason why There is one of the reason why I would like to support these amendments, clause 11 implies those
low the lower earnings level can do as well as those on higher earnings
without improvements in their skills and productivity levels.
The government modelling has been based
on productive at present rather low skills level. That premise, and the
overall... That overall reflected by this Bill is misguided in that
additional cost to be borne by employers alone are to be paid for without productivity gains. And with
no regard for the wider context of the overall economy. Or its
buoyancy. Rather, the bill, including clause 11, locks the UK
labour market into being the lowest productivity economy amongst
similar, G7 economies.
In the lowest productive output per hour for the
UK economy. Not only has the UK disproportionately hired no skilled
labour and people earning low wages, but in topping up benefits,
including Statutory Sick Pay, T levels or for higher earners, it
offers no incentive to improve skills. Such an approach in the UK
labour market means lower earners by failing to encourage incentives to
Aspire higher, improve skills and education and ultimately lead to
their being... They will ultimately not be employable.
I will not go
through the GDP rates per hour, but they make depressing reading, with
the US earning the highest GDP per hour, in purchasing power, and
France and Germany earning more than the UK. The UK productivity was
around 19% lower than that of the
US. We improve productivity by having an incentive-based pay scheme
and that must be based on higher skills and higher aspirations. I
support the amendment for these reasons because not only because they would mitigate, slightly, the
burden on business, and could mitigate against potential behavioural changes, I would go
faster than my noble friends amendment and argue that a lower
proportion differential for the Lower Earnings Limit should be built into the measure as an incentive to
low skilled employees to improve their earning capacity by training
and education.
On my noble friend's amendment, 73, and amendment 74, a
rebate scheme, I support these. Cover up for lost income for
sickness goes back historically
1911. It was again, enshrined in the blueprint by beverage. With elements
of contributing social insurance then in existence, extended right
across into a single system of contributing insurance under the
national insurance act. Statutory Sick Pay was based on a three-way contributory benefit paid by the
employer. The employee and the taxpayer, for the best part of 100
years.
To help working people with
income to cover sickness. Throughout the period, the employee contribution arrangements were designed as part of a three-way
scheme to promote incentive, maintain a link between contribution
and benefits and keep costs and claims under control and link
benefits to contribution. As the employee element was eroded and in
the 1980s and 90s, during the twists and turns of attempts to control
escalating public expenditure, limits were introduced, and we have heard about the limits from my noble
friends, Baroness coffee.
They were
whittled down between 1983, to 1991,
I will spare you the triggers, from
1994, we arrived at the 80%
investment rate. 100% commencing after four weeks, instead of six
weeks. In April 1995, that was
abolished, but there was a percentage threshold scheme put in its place. But all the time, it was
recognised that employers were
compensated for high levels of sickness absence, they could recover
part of Statutory Sick Pay costs, when the had a specified percentage
of total class I.
The amount
reimbursed being the excess of Statutory Sick Pay paid above the
percentage threshold. So, for these
reasons, I support the amendments. And in lieu of the fact that
contributions continue, and have in
the retrograde manner, been increased considerably under the NIC
act, which went through this House
earlier this year. Increase disproportionately with the damage already seen to the labour market,
which we continue to hear about and
businesses who are more reluctant to employ the very people we need to employ, I suggest it is fair and
proportionate that there should be a rebate as proposed in the modest
amendment of my noble friends, and the more ambitious one of Lord Fox.
16:22
Baroness O'Grady of Upper Holloway (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
I write in support of Lady Lister and amendment 72, and I add my
thanks to the safe sick campaign, the Health Foundation and other
organisations. I heartily welcome the commitment to strengthening SSP
by removing the Lower Earnings Limit and the waiting period. Nationally
representative survey, conducted for the TUC, found that around half of
employees get their full pay, as
usual, when sick. But around 28% were forced to rely on SSP alone. It
also found a clear, class divide.
When it comes to who gets what.
Eight in 10 of higher earners, over 50 grand per year, get full pay.
Compared to only one third of lower
earners. The pandemic exposed just
how precarious life is for those in insecure, low-paid work. We do not
know how many preventable illnesses were caused by people struggling to work and spreading virus because
they could not afford to stay at home. But we do know, as we heard,
forcing people back to work, when they are ill, is bad for workers and
bad for business, it puts pressure on the NHS, and it is costly for the
economy.
I am very grateful to the Minister for taking time to meet
Baroness Lister and myself to discuss our concern that the formula
adopted by the government could leave low-paid workers, who are just above the Lower Earnings Limit,
worse off. The DWP's answer, has
been that the abolition of the working days ensures that for the
first three weeks, those losses have
been offset. Surely the policy intention of the government and
commitment to abolish the waiting days is not to make up for losses caused by its own formula.
Surely
the policy intention should be to
ensure that every single worker, who relies on SSP, is in fact better
off. And surely we need to protect those on long-term sickness, who
are, for example, receiving cancer
treatment. I note the government's concern that the formula must be
designed in such a way to avoid workers getting more in sick pay than they would in wages, and to
avoid a cliff edge. I remain unconvinced that it is beyond the
wit of DWP to come up with an approach which both protects that
position, without penalising a group
of low-paid workers.
Secondly, as we have heard, this amendment seeks a review of the rate of Statutory Sick Pay, as the Resolution Foundation
has pointed out, unlike many, many other European countries, the rate
is not linked to earnings.
Apparently, at £180 -- £118.75 p,
SSP equates to 27% of the National Minimum Wage. In 1999, SSP was
equivalent to 43% of the National Minimum Wage. That is a big drop for
a decade and more, SSP has failed to
keep up with the cost of living or increases in the living wage.
The work and pension Select Committee
has confirmed that the SSP rate is
not enough to live on and the Covid public enquiry hearing in December
2023... Matt Hancock was quizzed by
Sam Jacobs, who is counsel for the TUC, and former Health Secretary
agreed that the rate of SSP should
be higher. How could he argue otherwise, when the UK has
languished at the bottom of the OECD league for Statutory Sick Pay under the previous government and when we
know that such a low rate of SSP is
a danger to public health.
Now, I understand that perfection must not
be the enemy of the good. But an SSP rate that works out at around three
pounds per hour is some way short of
either perfection or good. This amendment implicitly recognises that
this wilful legacy of neglect, tackling it, will not be achieved
overnight. But it would be welcome if the Minister could reassure us
today that both the formula and the rate of Statutory Sick Pay will be
reviewed before the Autumn Budget and rightly so.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
My Lords, I would like to start
**** Possible New Speaker ****
My Lords, I would like to start by declaring interests, I am an employer, found on enlisted business, mind gym, a behavioural
business, mind gym, a behavioural science business and an expert in
science business and an expert in corporate training, to improve employee well-being and productivity. I am also a
productivity. I am also a commissioner at the EHRC. I rise to support the opposition amendments in
16:28
Baroness Cash (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
support the opposition amendments in
this group, 71, A and B, 70 -- 74, A
and B and C. I want to make clear that I understand all of us here, everyone here is driven by compassion for those who need
protection. And I pay tribute to the
speeches from the benches opposite.
And from my noble peers. I am very concerned about these proposals. And
I am grateful to Baroness O'Grady for drawing attention to the
Resolution Foundation report on this because they have identified that
some of the points, which support the amendments on this side of the House, and I will return to this, the government has said come on
record, it wants growth.
We support
that goal. It wants businesses to succeed, we support that goal. It also wants... I said, it wants to
reduce the number of people out of the workforce on long-term sickness.
Currently, 2.8 million. We support that goal. What we do not understand
is how a nurse the government believes that this legislation, and
these proposals, are going to
achieve any of that. They are based
on compassion, I have no doubt, but they are pursuing a culture of
incapacity and dependency that will impede the stated aims.
I will explain why. Because we are referring to SSP and not to long- term sickness. But they are related
to each other in our culture. Our sicknote culture in Britain today.
Mental health, now accounts for 50% of all new sickness claims. Bear in
mind, when we are talking about SSP, we are talking about 50% of those being mental health issues. What
qualifies? A diagnosis of stress? No
root? Burnout? All of these are signed off on a GP sicknote. They
are transient, there is confusion between transient, life, because --
life difficulty and clinical Simon Wessely has put it like this.
We are apologising normal human experience, grief, worry, frustration and now all treated as
medical conditions. The new statutory sick proposals run against
all of the scientific evidence, in
which I have declared I have been immersed for the last 10 years. Also the sociological data from other
countries, which show that what is intended by this act isn't going to
be achieved by the way it is being framed. I appeal to my noble peers
on all benches, to please, if it is helpful, I will share the research,
I will happily meet and talk with any member of the government
benches.
As a number of neuroscientists and psychologists, over the last 20 years, the last
five, have identified what is happening, why we have this massive increase in people being sick, long
term. Professor Lisa Feldman
Barrett, a leading neuroscientist has shown that our brains are due
don't them from context, she tells the most extraordinary story of a
young teenage girl who lives in a
tribe of the word and she is in a culture and I am not for a second advocating this, it is such a striking story about how the brain
works.
She is in a culture where women are treated very badly, the women all think they are pests. That
women all think they are pests. That
is how they deal with it. They go about their lives and she is getting good grades at school and she is
sleeping night and doing fantastically well, to succeed in her life. She then watches a Netflix documentary that tells her about domestic abuse. I concepts, which in
this tribe had never worn fruition. It may well have done so, but in the
context of the documentary, domestic abuse was shown to cause certain
things.
Guess what, her exam grades dropped. She stopped sleeping, she became very, very ill. Her brain suddenly predicted, from the
different context that she should be feeling differently to how she was feeling before. That is what
happens. When we set the cultural
context. I am excited, if I am, my
husband would have words. We are excited about an event, we are anxious or taking an exam. The same
physiological measures show up, on the data. We are predicting the
emotion differently.
This is what is happening, in our workplaces, in our
lives, up and down the country and we are destroying the future of this
country and levelling it with debt, further young because we are not addressing this and we are worsening it with these proposals,
facilitating it. Daniel Kahneman, I
can go on and on, with the research. He has shown a behaviour is shaped by a framing disengagement, if
disengagement is framed as a safe, or sanctioned, or subsidised, it
becomes a default under pressure.
I go back to the Resolution Foundation's report, as referenced by Baroness O'Grady, what she didn't
mention there is that when there is more generous in Statutory Sick Pay, there is more absence. When, in
other countries, where they have a
day one writes, they have reduced percentage rate of payment, to ensure they balance that tension
between going off sick, unnecessarily, for reasons they do
not need to use. Martin Solomon,
also talks about learnt health and was that when people face stress with the agency or structure, they
stop trying, even when recovery is possible.
Belief in our ability to function is critical to actually
doing so. I can go on and on. The evidence is so clear that if we demand nothing, we will get nothing.
To be very clear, this is mental
health we are talking about and contextualising mental health. I know it is not what the opposition
benches would like to hear. I urge you to listen. My opposition, not
the government benches, thank you. So the government benches and may not want to hear this, but I am
urging you to think about what you are trying to achieve, with this
legislation and what the outcomes
are likely to be.
We do have to immerse ourselves only in the
academic research, because there is a sociological data, proof of what I'm saying, from looking at other countries. In Sweden, they did, what
this government is proposing to do. They made generous sick pay
provisions and reforms and it led to a rocketing absence level, until
they had to go back in reform again. Introducing a tightened eligibility, reimposing assessments and setting a
fixed sick leave durations. That, then is what these absence levels
came down, no increase in hospitalisation.
In Denmark, where
hospitalisation. In Denmark, where
encouragement to return to work is filled into sick leave, requiring people to stay connected and take part in phase returns, meant
outcomes are far better than in the UK and dependency is lower. And in
the Netherlands, employers, only get support for sick leave, where they are required to keep really engaged and have proof that that is part of
the whole system. These new
additional entitlements aren't being kind to people. They are not being
kind to a generation of young who are watching economic inactivity in
their homes.
Of course there will be people that need to be a specifically categorised with physical illness. Of course there
are people who are really very sick. It with a 50% mental health sickness
rate, I urge the government to reflect again, on these clauses.
16:37
Baroness Smith of Llanfaes (Plaid Cymru)
-
Copy Link
-
I rise to speak in support of
Amendment 72, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Lister and I with the noble Baroness, Lady
O'Grady signed it. This would require a review of the rate of
Statutory Sick Pay and the head of his Majesty's government Autumn
Budget, 2025. It requires the Secretary of State to determine, following that review whether the rate should be changed, alongside a
written statement, setting out the reasons over that determination. I think it is important for us to
remind ourselves about what this amendment entails.
As my noble Lords
are aware, statutory sick pay is a government scheme, requiring employers to provide a most employees, in the UK that are absent
from work, due to sickness, with a minimum level of pay, during that
period of absence. Statutory sick pay or SSP numbers £118, 75p per
week, following an increase last month, which an eligible employee can receive the four days if they
are ill and not working, except for the first three days of that sick
leave.
To be eligible, one must be classed as an employee and have done some work for the employer, and at
least an average of £125 per week,
previously £123 and had been ill for more than three days, in a row. It is only on the fourth day that they
receive SSP. The scheme, as it stands is ineffective and causes
hardship. And as we have heard, from the noble Baroness, Lady O'Grady,
according to the tea you see, 28% of employees receive only basic SSP,
when ill.
Meaning they are reliant on this very small amount during that period of illness. They add
that there are one point one union workers earning below the previous
SSP amount of £123, per week, who
are not even eligible for SSP, with
Considering also the penalty of the three-day delay, until an eligible employee can claim SSP, it is clear that reforming SSP is both necessary
and overdue. I therefore welcome the provisions under the Employment Rights Bill that we see SSP payable
from the first day of incapacity to work, by way of clauses 10 and 12.
And the removal of the lower earnings limit that is the requirement to earn at least £125
per week, through clauses 11 and 13.
Clauses 11 and 13 of this bill also certain legislation that the rate of
SSP would be set at the lower of £118.75, or 80% of the employees are
normally included earnings. That payment is extremely low, by international standards, as we have
heard, like many laws, it is one of
the lowest rates in the OECD.
And if you were to divide this amount, by a
typical 40 hours worked, by full- time employees, in a week, this provides under 3 pounds, per hour,
to employees that are ill. Of course many workers, will work more than 40 hours per week, decreasing this
hourly amount even further. In the context and I think we all must remember this, in the context of rising housing costs, food prices,
energy and household bills, such a small payment is adequate to meet
basic living standards.
And I ask your Lordships' House macro, do we
believe that those people can survive on a 3 pounds an hour. I think that is an important question
that we must consider as part of a
when we look at this amendment. In
fact, in the context of Universal Credit, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation estimates are that to afford essentials, the adults, in a household, a single adult requires at least £120 a week and a couple
£205 a week, just for the basic
essentials, alone.
It is clear that
a review of the adequacy of the SSP rate is crucial, to ensure people are not plunged into poverty, just for becoming ill. Which is something
that happens to all of us. Subsection 7, under amendment 72, makes provisions for the Secretary of State to ensure that no employee
receives less Statutory Sick Pay than they would have received, before this bill is enacted, as a
result of changes, under clause 11 this is important, because according
to the TUC, and 80% replacement rate, as in the bill would see 300,000 workers entitled to a lower
300,000 workers entitled to a lower
rate of SSP, than currently.
Many of these individuals work for multiple employers, work part-time and received no wages. And according to the save the sick pay campaign,
three quarters of those impacted will be women. Disabled people will
be disproportionately affected and
almost half are between 20 and 54. Using the SSP amounts in place before April, the save six pay
campaign outline an example of an
employee who would now lose out. That employee working for multiple
employers, earning £123 a week, with their employers would have received
£116.75 a week, other Statutory Sick Pay, because they earned above the
Lower Earnings Limit.
Following this bill as it stands, that same employee would see a 16% reduction in their entitlement and receive
only £98 a week, as this would represent 80% of their earnings.
Many workers, particularly those in low paid positions already struggle to avoid the shortfall caused by
SSP, when ill. And increasing that
shortfall will make it more unlikely that workers will have adequate savings to mitigate the loss in
their income. Subsection 7 of
amendment 72 provides a way for the Secretary of State to rectify the situation and ensure no one is worse off as a result of SSP changes, as
part of this bill.
It is vital that his Majesty's government does not
intentionally or unintentionally cut sick pay for hundreds of thousands
of workers. So I will now briefly turn to some of the other amendments
in this group and also some of the debate that we have had so far as part of this group. Amendment 73, in
the name of Lady Baroness, Baroness Coffey and amendment 74, in the name
of Lord Fox, call for the establishment of a scheme for
reimbursement of Statutory Sick Pay course, incurred by companies, with
fewer than 250 employees.
This is an interesting proposal, as we have heard from Baroness, Lady coffee and
we are yet to hear from the noble Lord, Lord Fox. I look forward to hearing and the Minister's response
in terms of the practicalities of
such a proposal. And, just one other thing I would like to note as part of this debate is I feel very
strongly that the mental health is the health and this also isn't just to do with those facing mental health conditions, at all. This is
wider than that.
I think it is important just to note that this is
about all workers who have been signed off of work due to lots of different types of reasons, in terms
of why they might be ill from work.
That does include mental health. Of course the aims of these amendments are different to that of amendment
72. In them and 72 would help address gaps in the bill, as it stands on the matter of adequate
sick pay for workers. Gaps that cause some concern, in relation to
the consequential effects on a low
And I hope the Minister, when responding to this debate will address the concerns that I've highlighted, in my speech.
Namely
the adequacy of the rate of SSP, as set out under this bill. Her assessment of the effect on low income workers, without relying on the welfare system to offset that
effect. And if his Majesty's government will commit to a review of SSP rates, so that workers are not punished, by measures, as part
of the bill, expected to strengthen their workplace rights. Thank you
**** Possible New Speaker ****
very much. Very brief. I think there is actually been some excellent debate
actually been some excellent debate in this group and I wanted to ask for some clarification, maybe from
for some clarification, maybe from the government, in particular, about something I'm confused about. I'm
something I'm confused about. I'm
something I'm confused about. I'm I think the noble Baroness made a
I think the noble Baroness made a really useful, insightful contribution to this discussion that
contribution to this discussion that brought another layer to it because I think there is a danger of us
talking about these discussions technically on the one hand and also in a rather old-fashioned way, and I
in a rather old-fashioned way, and I think now there is a lot more evidence and new phenomena we need
evidence and new phenomena we need to take into account.
The reason I wanted to think about this amendment
wanted to think about this amendment is because it's looking at the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
impact on... I'm sorry to interrupt. We are
**** Possible New Speaker ****
not debating 74A at the moment. I've got the right group, I just
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I've got the right group, I just said the wrong thing. It's the wrong
group... Are right, thank you.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
group... Are right, thank you. I think -- I thank all noble Lords have spoken in what has been a
Lords have spoken in what has been a very interesting debate. We close last week with a couple of de-
16:48
Lord Fox (Liberal Democrat)
-
Copy Link
-
last week with a couple of de- grouped Conservative amendments and I promised to speak about Statutory
Sick Pay. Last week, noble Lords spoke firmly against the
government's proposed changes. I
think, for my part, I have seen evidence that businesses are arguing
strongly for the status quo or to the threshold. But I'm not a
behavioural scientist -- while I'm
not a behavioural scientist, I can read through. The party with the
majority in the Commons have made it clear where they stand on that issue
and that has been reasserted with some of the stronger comments we heard from the benches opposite.
Businesses, I think, have drawn the
same conclusion. Most businesses I
have spoken to are seeking ways to ameliorate this rather than eliminate it, which is probably
unlikely. I was interested to hear the noble Lords from the
Conservative frontbench speak to 71A and B. Their version of amelioration
seems to be to reduce the amount of
SSP or at least severely limit the amount of SSP. We heard a different
story from the noble Baroness Lister and the noble Baroness O'Grady who set out the reasons why SSP is
important and the rate is meaningful.
To contextualise
poverty, we are talking about the poorest people who are working
people but still extremely poor. It seems to me difficult to
overestimate the generosity of this scheme, but that appears to be what
I've heard from several of the -- several on the Conservative benches. This is a very modest offer and I think the Baroness Lister with her
statistics set that out, as did the
noble Baroness Smith. Before I talk
to my own amendment 74 and 73, I will just deal with the others.
The
noble Lord Sharpe and Lord Hunt called on amendment 75 for a reviewer to report within two years.
I mentioned there is a subsequent
group, which has also impact
assessment in it so not sure where were debating them separately. Rather like Baroness Fox, I'm going
Rather like Baroness Fox, I'm going
to mention 74A to C. There is a slight mismatch of timings.
Amendment 75 is after two years, 74 B and C there is a slight mismatch of timings.
Amendment 75 is after
two years, 70 6:04 months and 75 after one year. There need to be
impact assessments whatever your
Lordships site. Perhaps, it will be a more systematic calendar than the
one suggested. There needs to be
pre-emptive impact assessments. It would be good to hear the Minister spell out the detail of the impact
assessment of business on the current proposed measures. If, as
the Minister says, the cost will be relatively modest, than the cost of
amendment 73 or 74 would also be relatively modest, which takes me to
the point in question.
As we've
heard very eloquently from the noble Baroness coffee, she and I have come
with very similar suggestions in terms of amelioration, which is what I was talking about earlier. And
like the noble Baroness Noakes, I
prefer the noble Baroness's version.
We need to sit down and work out a way whereby a rebate scheme can be
introduced. We care deeply about SMEs. They drive a huge part of our economy. This is a way of making
sure they do not get disadvantaged as employees and get what they
deserve as SSP.
I hope that the Baroness will be able to make a
positive noise about that and we can
sit down and have that conversation. I think what we've heard today is that SSP is absolutely vital for a
section of society who are themselves already massively
disadvantaged. I do not think we should be drawing lines and pushing them further down. We should be
finding ways of making sure that
they are not disadvantaged even more. At the same time, we should find ways of making sure that our
SME sector is not also disadvantaged.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
My Lords, I think we've had a really good debate on these issues
really good debate on these issues and I hope that I can do justice to
and I hope that I can do justice to the questions and points raised. If I begin first with amendment 75,
tabled by Lord Sharpe and Lord Hunt on independent reviews into the
on independent reviews into the effects of SSP reforms on small and
effects of SSP reforms on small and medium enterprises.
As the noble Lords will be aware, the government has already undertaken a regulatory
has already undertaken a regulatory impact assessment, which was published on 21 November, 2024, and
published on 21 November, 2024, and can be found on guv.uk. -- gov.uk.
can be found on guv.uk. -- gov.uk. In the regulatory impact assessment, the government estimated that the cost of delivering these measures
cost of delivering these measures will cost businesses a modest £15 extra per employee. Can I assure
noble Lords that the government
remains committed to monitoring the impact of these SSP measures.
We intend to conduct a post- implementation review of the
measures in the Employment Rights Bill within five years of implementation. Additionally, the Department for Work and Pensions conduct regular employer and
employee surveys and will continue to do so, providing further monitoring of the impact of SSP
changes on a range of employers and employees. I would also draw attention to the Keep Britain
Working review. This independent review will consider recommendations
to support and empower -- enable employers to promote healthy and
inclusive workplaces.
It will support more people to stay in and return to work after periods of
sicknesses and help people with sicknesses and conditions. Whilst
I'm on the variety of sicknesses
that people on disability and care.
-- incur. Our proposals have to be seen in the wider context of the
bill. What this bill is intending to do is to improve the experience of employees at work so measures like
taxable working, guaranteed hours and protection from harassment could and we believe will reduce stress at
work, potentially leading to fewer
incidents of burnout and therefore if you were related absences.
First,
that is an important challenge that we intend to monitor. If I now turn
to amendment 73 in the name of Noble Baronesses Coffey, this would
introduce a rebate scheme to
reimburse SMEs. I think it was four days but she clarified she meant three days as her intention. I thank
the noble lady for her interest in SSP and I appreciate her extensive
knowledge and experience with this area as the former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. As previously mentioned, regarding
waiting days, the changes we are making to SSP will cost businesses around an additional £15 per
employee.
A relatively modest amount in comparison to the benefits of
reduced present ESM and the positive impact this will have on the West
paid embers of society -- presenteeism. We previously delivered rebate schemes. This was
abolished duty SMEs under using it and feedback that the administrative burden was complex and time-
consuming. So I would suggest that a rebate scheme that only covered the first three days of sickness and absence would also be quite administratively burdensome, both
for businesses to claim and for the government to process.
Previous SSP rebate schemes also did not
encourage employers to support their employees. We know that employers
having responsibility for paying sick leave helps maintain a strong link between the workplace and the
employee, with employers encouraged to support employees to return to
work when they are able. And if I then stick with the team -- theme of
rebate schemes and return to Lord
Fox's amendment 74. This rebate scheme... I would reiterate the
point I made earlier about SSP changes and the experience of
previous rebate schemes.
I have to say that I would agree with the
noble Lady that we have moved away from the Average System of social
16:59
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
insurance and the cost and the
insurance and the cost and the
-- Beveridge system. I -- Beveridge system. I don't -- Beveridge system. I don't believe a rebate is the best way to support SMEs at this time. We will be
SMEs at this time. We will be considering the findings of the aforementioned review which is expected to produce a final report
expected to produce a final report of recommendations in Alton. The noble Lord Lord Fox through a challenge to me which is we should
challenge to me which is we should keep talking about this and, of course, I'm very happy to do so.
course, I'm very happy to do so. Turning to amendment 71A and 72B
Turning to amendment 71A and 72B There was no clear consensus from stakeholders on the percentage rate.
stakeholders on the percentage rate. The government believes that the 80% rate strikes the right balance between providing financial security
to the lowest paid employees when they need to take time off work to recover from illness and limiting
the cost of business. Otherwise, as the noble Lord Lord Fox says, if we
are not careful, we will be penalising the very poorest in our society.
And crucially, the total amount saved by businesses if the
rate was set at 60% compared to 80%
was wrong is around 30 million. This is a pound difference per employee
per year. Specifically, on the noble
Lords amendment 71 A to set the rate
at 70% for the first days, the amounts saved by businesses become even smaller, with the difference in cost being a matter of pennies.
Given the minimal savings for businesses, the complexity for employees and administrating
different rates is difficult to
justify.
The noble Lady Baroness Noakes asked about the data we had
on the duration of sickness absence.
The DWP employee survey from 2023 showed that 64% of individuals don't
take any sick 's absence at all and of those that did, 87% have absences
of three weeks or under. Therefore, for short-term absences, the removal of waiting days is likely to offset
for the 300,000 who could earn less
If I now go on to amendment 72, this has been tabled by my noble friend, Baroness Lister of Burgess said.
As
I have just said, it is designed to balance support for the employee with the cost of the employer. Lord
Lister, Lord Davies, Baroness O'Grady and the noble Baroness Smith raised a more fundamental challenge
And indeed made very compelling
cases. As a noble Lords porno the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions already carefully reviews and sets the rates for Statutory Sick Pay, each year, as part of the
Social Security rating process and this rate is agreed by Parliament. The formula and the rate of SSP, if we do change it, will be reviewed
throughout this process.
I would
also say to my noble friend Baroness
Lister and others that removing the waiting period means that all
employees will receive a £60 extra at the start of their absence, rising to £150, if they work two days per week, compared to the
current system. We also know that increasing the rate of SSP substantially increases costs, for
example a rate of 18% of the National Living Wage, and cost businesses an extra £1.3 billion, a
With the changes were already making throughout this bill, we believe
that the current rate is fair and achieves the right balance between providing support for employees, whilst minimising the cost to employers.
Now I understand my noble friend has included in her amendment
provision for ensuring that no employee will receive less SSP as a result of these changes. This was
the point raised by Baroness
That by removing the waiting period, no employee will be entitled to less SSP, for the first three weeks of
sickness absence, which from a survey of UK employees represent 80% of all sickness absence. In fact the
vast majority will receive more than they do now, as a result of these
changes.
So I can assure the noble Lady, Baroness Smith, that we are not cutting SSP, for hundreds of
thousands of workers. Baroness O'Grady, challenged the DWP to come
up with a more comprehensive formula. I can assure her that this
has been looked at in detail and I know she knows, because we discussed
it when we met and produced a fact sheet to support this. It is more complicated than we would like to
think. And the truth is it has to be a scheme that is simple enough to be
easily implemented by employers.
I
hear what she says. I wish it was that simple, but unfortunately it
isn't. However, those who additionally, who need additional financial support, whilst off sick
may also be able to claim more help through the welfare system. DWP recently published a fact sheet, which I hope my noble friend has
which I hope my noble friend has
found useful. I can assure my noble friend that the government does of course remain committed to monitoring the impact of the changes we are making, to strengthen the
statutory sick pay and how the SSP is used by employers and how it supports employees, including a
lower paid employees.
So, this is an issue that will be kept under review, but My Lords, in the
meantime, I hope the amendments can be withdrawn.
17:05
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
I would like to thank the noble Lady the Minister very much indeed for her response and indeed all
noble Lords for their contributions to what has been a very thoughtful
and I think a valuable debate. In particular, noble friends Baroness
Noakes, Baroness Coffey, Baroness Lawler and Baroness Cash, for bringing her unique expertise in the area of behavioural science, to this
debate. It is crucial that the government fully recognises the many provisions in this bill are
interlinked, as we've heard from all sides of the House.
Changes in one area can have unintended ripple effects in others. As I have said,
we support Statutory Sick Pay, but we must also acknowledge that these proposed changes will result in higher costs, for employers. My moments were an attempt to find, noble foxes words, to ameliorate
some of those costs. To find some sensible compromises. I'm
disappointed that the government has
chosen to reject them. Businesses cannot plan, cannot invest and cannot hire with confidence. As I pointed out opening remarks, the facts are plain, jobs are being lost
now.
Regarding an SME rebate scheme, as highlighted by my noble friend, Baroness Coffey, in her amendment 73 and spoken to by my noble friends
and spoken to by my noble friends
Baroness Noakes and Baroness Lawler. Also, Lord Fox and his amendment, 74. The government has stated that final decisions will follow consultation with business, through
secondary legislation. The impact assessment plans for an extensive engagement with small and medium- sized businesses to test where
mitigations can be made. SMEs have spoken, they have asked for a rebate
scheme as a use during the pandemic.
It is therefore disappointing that the Government is not accepted the amendments to provide that support. I would suggest that the noble Lady
the Minister takes up the offer to
talk more on the subject, a conversation we would like to be party to. I'm pretty sure we will be returning at report. If I may just
paraphrase Baroness O'Grady, the wit of man, to design a simple scheme that works. I beg leave to withdraw
**** Possible New Speaker ****
my amendment. Is it your Lordship's pleasure that the amendment be withdrawn? It
is by leave withdrawn. And they're amendment and 71 B, Lord Sharpe, not moved? 72, Baroness Lister, not
moved? 72, Baroness Lister, not moved. The question is other clause 11 at stand part of the bill? As many as are of that opinion, say,
many as are of that opinion, say, "Content". Of the contrary, "Not content". The contents have it. After clause 11, Amendment two 73,
After clause 11, Amendment two 73, Baroness Coffey? Not moved.
And 74,
Baroness Coffey? Not moved. And 74, Lord Fox? Not moved. In that case we moved to 70 for a, Lord Sharpe of
moved to 70 for a, Lord Sharpe of Epsom. -- 74 a.
17:08
Lord Hunt of Wirral (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Epsom. -- 74 a. After what has been a fascinating, wide ranging and
fascinating, wide ranging and important debate on Statutory Sick
Pay, I just would like to focus on the impact that these changes are
going to have. In particular on
absenteeism, on short notice shifts and on enhanced sick pay schemes. So
I rise to speak to amendment 74 a,
74 B and 74 C. We will continue to make the point that this bill does
bring with it a raft of unintended consequences.
Turning to 74 A, the
importance of this amendment cannot be overstated. Absenteeism is a
critical issue for many businesses,
especially those in hospitality, retail and other service-based
industries. Where staff shortages can lead to disruption,
cancellations and even closures. With the removal of a waiting list
for SSP and the expansion of eligibility, it is essential that
all of us should understand fully how these changes are going to
affect absenteeism patterns, across
various sectors.
And one of the sectors most concerned, with the
potential rise in absenteeism, that these changes will cause, is of
course hospitality. Many businesses,
in this sector, do rely on the part
time, hourly or zero hour contracts, employing younger workers, students, or those with fewer financial
or those with fewer financial
responsibilities. As we know, the significant portion of the workforce
in hospitality earns below the lower earnings threshold, for Statutory Sick Pay. And also, may only be
employed for a limited amount of hours.
These workers are typically less dependent on their income, often are still living at home, or
with fewer financial obligations.
This brings us to a major concern. If these workers know that they will
still receive the statutory sick pay, regardless of their financial
needs, then there may be little incentive for them to attend work,
they feel under the weather, or if they simply feel they would prefer a
day off. The concern is that the reforms could result in workers
taking sick leave when it may not strictly necessary.
As at the financial implications of their
doing so would be mitigated by the
statutory sick pay payment. For
example, if a student worker, or part-time employee knows that they
will still receive statutory sick pay, even if they don't meet the earnings threshold. They may not feel the same level of obligation to
feel the same level of obligation to
attend work. This is particularly true in a sector such as hospitality, where work provides either temporary or supplementary
income.
As such, the absence of a financial pressure could lead to
increased absenteeism, in the short
term, which could, in turn, lead to operational challenges, for
hospitality businesses. Especially those that already operate with
small teams, a high turnover of
staff, or both. As I've mentioned, we believe that it is essential for
the government to thoroughly
evaluate how these Statutory Sick Pay provisions would affect absenteeism. Particularly, as I've
said already, sectors like hospitality, where the risks of absenteeism are most pronounced.
The
impact assessment called for, in
amendment 74 a will enable us to better understand the extent to
which these reforms would result in higher absenteeism rate and whether
there are any other unintended and undesirable consequences, such as
workforce disengagement, or a lack of motivation to work in sectors
where employees may not be so
financially reliant on their income. So, in particular, it is vital to
understand, one ) How absenteeism
levels might change, especially in sectors where a younger less
financially reliant workforce.
Secondly, the operational
challenges, businesses would face, due to potential increases in
absenteeism. And thirdly, a wider economic effect of these changes.
Including potential impacts on
service quality, customer satisfaction and employee morale.
Turning to amendment 74 the proposal to remove the waiting period for
statutory sick pay and the Lower Earnings Limit, represents a
substantial shift in how sick pay
obligations are structured. -- 72 B. It carries serious financial
implications, particularly for low margin sectors.
Such as retail, hospitality and for small and medium
sized enterprises, more broadly. So this amendment seeks a modest but
necessary safeguard. It asks the government to publish within six
months, a report on the impact of the Statutory Sick Pay reforms, on employers ability to offer enhanced
sick pay and occupational health and
well-being services. As of 2024, 28%
of UK employers offer occupational
health services. While 27% provide sick pay, that goes beyond statutory
minimums.
While we certainly want to
see those numbers improve, we must, surely, understand why provision
remains relatively low. A survey
conducted, last year, found that 43% of business leaders cite financial
constraints as the primary barrier
to offering enhanced sick pay. Others highlighted legal complexity,
that was a 31% and administrative
burden, 28% and staffing challenges,
Rather than addressing those challenges, the government has to
recognise that this bill threatens
to amplify them.
The government's Statutory Sick Pay proposals risk undermining businesses that are
already striving to do more for their staff, for the quarter of
employers offering enhanced schemes, rising baseline costs may make those
schemes unsustainable. For those not
currently able to offer more than a statutory minimum is, this bill then
moves the possibility of enhanced
provision even further out of reach. Moreover, many employers have
developed flexible, tailored schemes, adapting to the needs of their workforce and industry.
These
schemes recognise that one size fits all rarely works in practice. If
costs increase further without corresponding support, these
personalised schemes may be scaled
back or scrap entirely. -- Scrapped entirely. Let make make clear that
improvements do not guarantee
competition. Businesses will often choose to enhance their benefits to attract and retain talent but this only happens when they have the
financial headroom to do so. When taxes are lower and regulatory
burdens are predictable, businesses are incentivised to invest in
occupational health and better sick pay, but the current Statutory Sick
Pay proposals on top of national insurance increases and other cost
pressures leave micro, small and medium-sized businesses stuck at the
margin without the means or the flexibility to compete on workforce
support.
All this, I must add, is being pushed forward with an absence of clarity. The government's own
impact assessment admits that the behavioural impact of these measures
remain uncertain yet the costs are
all too real and immediate. That is why this amendment is so important. Doesn't ask for the policy to be reversed, on the that its
consequences be measured. It offers a chance to step back, evaluate and understand how the reforms are
impacting employer behaviour, benefit provision and ultimately
workforce health.
And finally,
amendment 74 C, the proposed changes
to statutory sick a, particularly the removal of waiting days and the lower earnings remit -- limit are
intended to support workers by providing them with access to sick
pay. These changes will create significant operational challenges for businesses, especially in the
context of short notice shift scheduling. The government's
approach to short notice payments is that workers should be eligible for
payment if they are expected to work a shift even without formal confirmation.
While we understand
the need for flexibility in the
scheduling of shifts, particularly in sectors such as retail, hospitality and transport, the proposed reforms could exacerbate
some already considerable logistical
challenges. As the legislation stands, with more workers potentially qualifying for SSP from
day one of illness, businesses will likely face an increase in short-
term absences. This will require
employers to adjust shifts at the
last minute, possibly without the certainty of knowing when SSP applies.
This leads to a direct
conflict between the two approaches. First, the flexibility proposed by
the government in short notice payment provisions could make it more difficult for businesses to
manage absenteeism, increased absenteeism due to illness. When
workers can call in sick and expect
SSP from day one, businesses will inevitably be forced to deal with
more absences at short notice. This situation could leave employers uncertain about when to issue SSP
payments. This would increase the administrative burden.
Secondly, with SSP reforms increasing
eligibility for sick pay, the potential for last-minute cancellations and redeployments
grows. For businesses already facing tight margins, especially in sectors where flexibility is essential, this
could create confusion and financial
strain, as workers would be expected
-- would expect to be paid for shifts for which they have not been fully confirmed but had reasonably been expected to work. Moreover, the
interaction between these changes could create competing obligations.
Whilst the predictable terms and
conditions act requires clear scheduling notice, the SSP
provisions could create a situation where businesses are caught between
the need for flexibility and staffing, unpredictability and
payments.
Employers may be forced to choose between ensuring flexibility and staffing and avoiding non-
compliance with the new rules of the SSP. In conclusion, we support the principle that providing better
support for sick workers, we must recognise that these changes,
especially when combined, coupled
with the increase in at short notice absences, these are going to play place significant burdens on
businesses if not properly aligned
with existing regulations, such as
those introduced by the workers
trade -- terms and conditions act.
It will make it harder for employers
effectively to manage both sick pay and shift scheduling. I do,
therefore, urged the Noble Baronesses the Minister to continue
-- to consider the potential conflicts between these provisions
and look for ways to align them to
avoid creating undue burden on businesses, particularly small and medium-sized enterprises. I beg to move.
17:23
Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-affiliated)
-
Copy Link
-
Amendment proposed. After clause 11, insert the following new clause
**** Possible New Speaker ****
in the words as printed on the Marshalled List. I actually should have spoken in
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I actually should have spoken in the other debate, even though... But
the other debate, even though... But I will carry on. I also want to
I will carry on. I also want to refer to the issue of absenteeism but I feel as though I wondered into the skivers debate and I don't necessarily want to be involved in
necessarily want to be involved in that. I am not worried that sick pay
that. I am not worried that sick pay will create a nation of skivers or
will create a nation of skivers or everybody saying they are sick.
everybody saying they are sick. There seems to be a conflict in government priorities in relation to our attitude to work and our
our attitude to work and our attitude to sickness. There do seem to be some tensions between the
to be some tensions between the discussion around the welfare system and PIP, for example. And the
and PIP, for example. And the concerns raised about -- in the
debate about larger numbers claiming disability benefits, especially for
mental illness. I actually thought that the questions asked by the...
Wes Streeting, the Health Secretary,
in terms of the problem of overdiagnosis, encouraging a culture in working age adults, especially
young people, feel themselves to be incapacitated and dependent on the
state in a demoralising way, in such a way that they are written off, it
is actually a very mature way to look at that discussion. I thought that it was something we should
consider. In relation to our discussion, I think we have to acknowledge as well a phenomenal
that we discussed quite a lot in the Mental Health Bill of it becoming --
being unwell, particularly being
mentally unwell as integral to many
people's identities, and the figures that we are given in the earlier debate but I was meant to speak, which was when Baroness Cass made
the point about, and other made the point about huge numbers of people
who are now off from work or in
terms of disability due to mental ill-health would indicate note that there is an increase in mental ill-
health but there is an increase in new cultural phenomena of people feeling they are not able to cope in
some capacity.
The reason why I raised this in relation to this bill as I think the government are having
a mature and interesting discussion
on welfare over there, but I cannot see how this is in conflict with the Statutory Sick Pay provisions and
the debate we've had in relation to this bill. So I did therefore think
that amendment 74A which calls for an impact in relation to
absenteeism, I'm concerned in a different way from the absenteeism,
which is if it is the case that Liz Kendall is the Minister or Wes
Streeting incentivises or encourages people who have been on long-term
sick leave to return to the workforce, may be others care home
jobs that have just been created.
But will they willingly do that or will they take advantage of this new
flexible sick leave from -- sick pay from day one? I'd like to know whether that would be likely to
happen. How would employers be encouraged to employ them? I think Baroness Noakes made this point. How would they be encouraged to employ
somebody who has been on long-term
sick leave? If you say to them you
can have sick pay from day one, it becomes a bigger risk for the employer to take on that particular
person.
The very people that we or the government wants to get back into work. And for their own sake,
they should be in work because it's not doing them any good. Just finish on this, I think we just need to be
honest in this discussion that
having time off sick at the moment is something that was so hard fought for for all those years to get sick
pay. We do live in a different period were sickness is viewed differently. It's almost like a
badge of honour in some instances.
It's also become a kind of way of coping. I will just give an example. When I was involved in further education as a teacher, it was the
first time I ever came across, 25 years ago, people were starting to
take stress-related sick time. And it was often when there had been a
political dispute at work or there had been some big row at work or some disciplinary action that happen. Instead of it being dealt with politically, people took
stress-related leave. Stress-related
sickness, I mean.
Fair enough. That was fine but it was one or two
people. At one point in the further education Department of humanities, one third of the staff were of with
stress. It was a dysfunctional department, as you can imagine. I agreed with the Minister when she
said earlier that we were hoping that a happier workplace, we can
that a happier workplace, we can
have less stress. I agree with that point. I genuinely think that there is something else going on. I think
that sickness has become a way that people express their problems in a range of ways.
People lose the habit
of work. My concern is that what is happening with this bill, particularly in relation to some of
the less flexible ways that it has been dealt with and sick pay in this instance is that, actually, we
incentivise those regressive ways that people are retreating from the
workplace. There was a report out
today, by the way, that says Gen Z believe the workplace itself makes
them ill and that workaphobia needs to be taken into consideration.
It's
an academic study, so the language is a bit odd. That's why people
should be treated with leniency about not going into the workplace because they themselves find going into the workplace and attracting
far too stressful. Is that kind of nonsense, to be frank, that I hope
we won't encourage inadvertently with this bill.
17:30
Lord Vaux of Harrowden (Crossbench)
-
Copy Link
-
I'm also a bit puzzled by the groupings, like the noble Lord Lord
Fox. I'd like to speak to this group rather than the last one. Everything
I say to this group applies just as
This group requires impact
assessments were carried out on the various effects of the bill that
Frankly a lot of this would not be
necessary if the bill had been properly thought through from the beginning. If there wasn't so much detailed to be filled in later by regulation and in particular for
proper risk assessment having carried out in the various changes proposed.
This bill, would buy the
government's own admission put disproportionate impact of over £5 billion. It will have potential
impacts on the employment opportunities for those with poor employment records. So it really is
a deeply unsatisfactory that it should have not been properly impact assessed. The Regulatory Policy Committee rated the impact
assessment is not for the purpose. I think it's worth reminding noble Lords what they actually said. "Given the number of each of the
measures will be proportionate to undertake the labour market and broader analysis to understand the
broader analysis to understand the
overall impact on employment, wages and output and particularly the passthrough of employer cost to employees.
" The eight individual IA's and the summary IA need to
provide us analysis and evidence, in
relation to the rationale for intervention, identification of options, including the impact on small or micro businesses and
justification for the preferred way forward. It is a damning that was
not done before this bill was presented to us. Before the noble Lady the Minister pointed this out I
do have to proceed that the statutory sick pay individual impact
assessment, within the impact assessment is in fact the only one
of 23 that is rated as good.
In itself a pretty damning statistic. However, the monitoring and evaluation plan, for the Statutory
Sick Pay part is rated as weak. So,
the noble Lord Hunt has already referred to the potential unintended behaviour aspects, that arise, which
are not in any way covered in the
impact assessment. In fact there is a complete copout, it says it can't do this, because of the behavioural impact. So sadly these proposed amendments and amendment 75, in the
previous group are clearly
necessary.
As are the others that we are going to be debating later on today and throughout the committee
process. The five year review that the noble Lady the Minister referred
to frankly doesn't cut it. Given the significance of the measures, in this bill and how quickly they will have an impact, 5 Years Is Way too long to wait to understand whether
it has been damaging or not. I do
not wish to test the patience of the House by repeating this speech multiple times, during the process of the committee, so I would ask the noble Lady the Minister to take my
support for proper and timely reviews and impact assessments, of the impact of this bill, as we go forward.
17:34
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
My Lords, as a noble Lords of
identified we are now continuing the
debate on Statutory Sick Pay and to specifically address at the impact of these measures on businesses. I
believe it is important to highlight
that statutory sick pay system and
the changes we brought about, as part of this bill, is designed to balance providing support for the individual, whilst minimising the
cost to the employer. This group of amendments, 74 A, 74 B and 74 C,
tabled by Lord Sharpe and Lord Hunt seem to require impact assessments on absenteeism, enhanced sick pay
schemes, occupational health and short notice should pay working.
As
I mentioned earlier and is the noble Lord, Lord Fox has already identified, the government has
already taken, undertaken a Regulatory Impact Assessments Bill which considered the likely direct business impact on SSP changes. This
included considering the impact on a small and medium enterprises and
In the red glittery impact
assessment, the government estimated that the cost of delivering these measures would be, as I said before, approximately £15 extra, per employee. A relatively modest
amount, when compared to the positive impact changes it will have on employees and overall
productivity.
And I have to say that
I do thank the noble Lord, for these are three amendments, tabled, all of which require impact assessments. And I'm looking forward to debating those with the other 23 also
requests for impact assessments that
the opposition have already tabled. So I think we have a pillar four of
request for impact assessments. And I do reassure the noble Lord that we
are, of course, at the same time, updating our Regulatory Impact
Assessments Bill and operating a post-implementation review of the measures.
So I think probably there the opposition requests are not
the opposition requests are not
necessary. If I start with amendment 74 A, requiring an assessment on
impact and the changes to SSP and absenteeism. We do acknowledge that
the overall sickness absence may increase as a result of the bill. This isn't a loophole. Nor is that the government not considering the
There is a very objective of these changes are to enable the lowest paid employees to take time off,
when they are sick.
Under the new system, employees will be able to take the time they need to recover from short-term illness, without struggling through work. And often
risking the spread of infectious
diseases, such as influenza. Similarly, employees with long-term, or fluctuating conditions should feel able to take a day of the sickness absence to manage their conditions, to prevent it from
worsening. Noble Lord, Lord Hunt suggested employees might be encouraged to misuse of the system. I have to say that if employers have
the right policies and practices in place, that risk of inappropriate absenteeism can and should be mitigated.
Additionally I believe
that noble Lords amendment would be quite difficult to deliver in
practice. There is not a standard measure of absenteeism, vs
legitimate sickness absence. And in many instances, it would depend on whether you asked employer or the employee. The government does intend
to build upon the red glittery impact assessment and as I have said, you do intend to conduct a post-implementation review of the measures, in the employment rights
bill. If I turn to amendment 74 B, to assess the impact of the reforms,
in this bill on employee ability to confirm enhanced sick pay and occupational health services,
particularly low margin sectors like I appreciate the novel's concern about the potential impact on this matter.
And the government certainly agree that it would not be in anyone's interest for there to be a
rollback of occupational sick pay, or occupational health provision. However the government's view is that these changes should only serve
to strengthen the link between the workplace and the employee. I would
question why any business would want to use these changes, as a reason to reduce the support they provide their employees to help them stay in
and return to work. The noble Lady,
Baroness Fox asked about the government's policy of getting people back to work and she was
I think we are talking about a balance here, where people are sick, they should have the right to be of
sick.
I also accept the point that she is making that being at work can in itself be a healing experience. We shouldn't lose sight of that.
There is a positive, there can be a positive health impact, from being at work. And I would, once again,
draw noble Lords attention to the written working review, as they settled earlier, in the debate, the
Charlie Mayfield, considering recommendations on how the
government can support and enable employers to promote healthy and
inclusive workplaces. I support more people to stay in, or return to work, after periods of sickness,
absence.
That review is expected to produce a final report, in the autumn of this year. I believe that
much of the keep Britain working review will address other noble
Lords concerns. I hope this reassures them that the Government is taking the matter seriously and we look forward to the results of
that review. Finally, I tend to amendment 74 C, to review the effects of the SSP changes on ship management, at short notice
scheduling in the workplace. As discussed in the moment 74 A, the number of sixes absences may go up as a result of these changes.
This is because it will enable employees
to take time off when they are six.
May I again reassured noble Lords that the government is committed to understanding the impact of these
We intend to conduct a post- implementation review, of these measures, in the Employment Rights Bill, within five years of
implementation. Additionally, as I set out earlier, in the earlier debate, the Department for Work and Pensions conduct regular employer and employee surveys, that will
continue to do so, providing a further impact of SSP changes, and a
range of employers and employees.
However, this amendment would require the government to collect a
significant amount of data, from businesses on what the House will
understand is a wide range of
issues. We believe this would be challenging for them to provide,
typically with less than six months. This is the very thing that the noble Lord is seeking to avoid, extra bureaucracy that he is talked about. For example asking employers
including SMEs to accurately record and report to government, the frequency of shift cancellations and
redeployments, because of sickness absence isn't practical, or reasonable.
So I think we have had a
worthwhile debate, a short debate on these issues. I hope you have persuaded noble Lords and that we
are on the case and it these issues and I hope, therefore, that the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
amendments can be withdrawn. The Minister said, during her
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The Minister said, during her remarks, that it would be a cost per employee of a £15 stop she said that
employee of a £15 stop she said that in the earlier group as well. I ask the noble Lord the Minister if she can provide any more information on this? It seems counterintuitive, if
this? It seems counterintuitive, if the average six days per employee is around eight days, which is what the
most recent survey data showed. That implies that the employers, they are already bearing the cost of something like seven point five days and are only going to be paying for an extra half day, which doesn't
an extra half day, which doesn't seem to be consistent with the evidence of the nature of absences that also exist.
Most are at the
that also exist. Most are at the shorter end and probably going to be
below the level at which they are currently being reimbursed by Statutory Sick Pay. This has been
Statutory Sick Pay. This has been troubling me for some time, but I
hope that the noble Baroness will be able to provide some further information. I do not expect it from the dispatch box, I would be delighted if it were to come from
**** Possible New Speaker ****
the Dispatch Box right now, if she could write to me, I would be most grateful. I suppose that the simple answer
to that is it is in the regulatory
to that is it is in the regulatory
to that is it is in the regulatory The noble Lord did acknowledge. One of the things that we got a fair rating for. I referred the noble Lady to that, which I think will give more details.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
give more details. I have read it and there is no more detail in the impact assessment, on the £15. That is why
**** Possible New Speaker ****
assessment, on the £15. That is why am I asking the noble Baroness the Minister if she can provide further detail on how that £15 is arrived at. I'm happy to write to the noble Lady.
17:43
Lord Hunt of Wirral (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Lady. The other frontbenchers, that
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The other frontbenchers, that I'm very grateful to the noble
I'm very grateful to the noble Baroness, the Minister. I think we have had a very important debate. I'm particularly grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Berkeley. Because, we haven't really
Berkeley. Because, we haven't really spent enough time worrying about the
people who were just unable to work. Working conditions have changed so
Working conditions have changed so much and stress related sick leave
is a huge issue.
As is what the noble Baroness referred to as losing
noble Baroness referred to as losing the habit of work. These are issues that we have to think about very
that we have to think about very carefully. There is an important and
complex issue of so-called present which deserves greater attention in our discussions about workplace
our discussions about workplace health and productivity. --
presentism. I did have in mind some research carried out by Robinson
Cooper. Their 2023 data, drawn from
over 3,000 UK respondents, 60% of employees recorded working while they were unwell.
So-called present
to use them, in the last three months. That is an important issue
which has to be taken into account, in any impact assessment. The
distinction is essential because not
all forms of working while unwell are inherently harmful. Some such as
pragmatic or therapeutic persons can be beneficial for both the employer and the employee. The challenge lies
and the employee. The challenge lies
in when it becomes a detrimental and ensuring that workplace policy including Statutory Sick Pay reform
support businesses in managing that balance effectively.
I'm also
grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Faulks on, in reminding us in the finding of the Regulatory Policy
Committee. We just need to be aware of the severe criticism that was
meted out about a bill which is
making such profound changes, whilst in the gleam of uncertainty -- Lord
Coe. None of us can be sure what effect these changes are going to
have. I think it is been a valuable debate, and grateful to the noble Baroness the Minister.
I would just
Baroness the Minister. I would just
like her to ponder, as to what discussions, what conversations the government has had, with businesses who are currently providing enhanced
sick pay, or occupational health
And how have those this -- those
businesses described the risk?
Particularly in relation to their ability to sustain or expand those
schemes. As we have discussed under earlier amendments, the interaction between SSP changes and short notice
shift management remains alive concern.
Many businesses, especially in hospitality, care and retail,
operate in high turnover and dynamic scheduling, so it would be helpful at some stage to know what feedback
the government has received from
employers in these sectors about the potential conflict in increased SSP eligibility and their ability to
manage short notice absences. We
manage short notice absences. We
**** Possible New Speaker ****
will I am sure return to this issue at Report Stage. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Is it your Lordships leisure that
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Is it your Lordships leisure that the amendment be withdrawn? It is by
the amendment be withdrawn? It is by leave withdrawn. Amendment 74 B,
leave withdrawn. Amendment 74 B, Lord Hunt, and 74C. The question is
Lord Hunt, and 74C. The question is that the amendments stand en bloc. All of those in favour say,
All of those in favour say, "Content". Those in the contrary say, "Not content". The contents have it. Amendment 75, not moved.
have it.
Amendment 75, not moved. The question is that clauses 14-17
The question is that clauses 14-17 stand as part of the bill en bloc. All of those in favour say, "Content". Those in the contrary
17:48
Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
"Content". Those in the contrary say, "Not content". The contents have it. After close 17, amendment
**** Possible New Speaker ****
76, Baroness Lister. I rise to speak to amendment 76
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I rise to speak to amendment 76 in my name. I'm grateful to those colleagues who have added their
colleagues who have added their names to the -- and to the Fatherhood Institute for their help.
The only scratch the surface of a policy that is letting fathers down
policy that is letting fathers down badly. It is disappointing to
discover that paternity pay will not be paid from day one. Could my noble
be paid from day one. Could my noble friend the Minister explain why it
friend the Minister explain why it won't be? The amendment goes through a review of parental grave --
a review of parental grave -- parental leave.
The purpose now is
parental leave. The purpose now is to ensure that it covers a number of key issues relating to fathers
key issues relating to fathers entitled to paid leave in their baby's first year, mainly measures
designed to prove fathers -- improve
the take-up by fathers, taking into
account examples of taxes. -- Best practice. The aims are simple. I
hope we will all agree. To strengthen the rights of fathers or
second parents to be active parents, which will also strengthen mothers
and respect of mother's labour position.
This will in turn achieve
greater gender equality. The situation is pretty woeful as far as fathers are concerned. This has
practical, cultural and symbolic effects. It is in fact saying that
fatherhood is of less importance to family life. Insofar as the labour
market accommodates responsibilities for childcare and need only do so for mothers. If we want to surround boys with positive symbolic messages
about masculinity, what better place to start than to give their fathers
the time they need to build strong relationships during infancy that
last a lifetime, thereby ensuring that fatherhood is valued.
I don't have the time to give details of what fathers are entitled to
what fathers are entitled to
compared to mothers. As well as
offering one of the lease offers in the OCD, the UK has a huge gap
between mothers and fathers entitlement to leave in the baby's first year. I 2022, most countries
in Western Europe had 12 weeks or less. The partial extension of day
when rates does not touch the sides
when it comes to the current, shoddy treatment of fathers, which has resulted in low paternal take-up of both paternity and shared parental
leave.
Paternity leave is dealt with
by other amendments in this group, so I will focus just on parental leave. Take-up among fathers of the shared parental leave scheme
shared parental leave scheme
introduced 10 years ago is a pitiful 5% of eligible fathers, according to a 2023 government report. The scheme
is also skewed against the lower income families with just 5% of the
tiny population of SPL users coming from the bottom 50% of earners. Shared parental leave does not constitute an independent right for
fathers, it depends on the entitled mother transferring part of her
leave.
The government warned at the time that this was going to fail in its aim of encouraging fathers to
take the leave and so it did. This is in part because of the way the
scheme was structured, part because of the low rate of payment means that many fathers can't afford to
take it, and in part because some
fathers are excluded altogether. This matters for fathers, mothers,
children and family life. As well as for the government's number one parity of economic growth.
It
matters for fathers because it takes it very difficult for them to play
and equal hands-on role in the upbringing of their infant children, which increasingly fathers wish to
do. Matters for mothers because to quote the women's budget group
unpaid care is a root cause of
women's economic inequality. So long as women carry so much of the responsibility for childcare in the
private sphere, the enter the public sphere with one hand tied behind
their back.
To many women's career -- career is full of the cliff where
they become mothers. Unequal division of childcare responsibilities as a key driver of
gender inequality and the gender pay
gap. It matters with children in two-parent families, not just for the relationship with their fathers
but also the evidence suggest that
for educational and cognitive development and for family relationships. Research indicates that paternal engagement during the
first year can foster ongoing engagement until a child is aged at least 11, and that this positive
effect builds over time.
Matters for families as it can affect family
well-being and stability. It matters
for economic growth as well. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation for progressive policy calculated that more generous provision for fathers
earmarked for six weeks could deliver nearly 2.7 billion net to
the wider economy as a result of strengthening mothers labour market
position. The amendment requires a review to take account of
international examples of best practice because we have so much to learn from the many countries who
are way ahead of us on this issue, particularly the Nordic and some
other countries who have for years included a reserve period of parental leave for fathers on a use
it or lose it basis in their schemes.
To suggest that this model
together with adequate payment, and I emphasise that, is the best way of ensuring fathers take up the leave. This would lead to our more
equitable division of childcare responsibility between parents and enabling mothers to participate in
the labour market on more equal terms. Mostly, it is a better and
more effective model and extending
parental paternity leave -- model of
extending paternity leave. For the first two weeks, it signals clearly
that the father can take it at a later date, ideally on his own, helping more mothers resume employment any.
As the Father
Institute notes, fathers are seen as
key to reducing the gender wage gap and the gap in men and women's participation in paid employment.
Both of these act as an impediment to economic growth. In a book I wrote many years ago on feminist
approaches as -- approaches to citizenship, I identified such
schemes as a key policy lever for promoting greater gender equality
and recognising the importance of care to men as well as women, and
also to the wider society.
Much as I'd like to see this as one result
of the review, I should stress that the amendment in no way ties the
government's hands as to this or any other outcome apart from the provision of adequate take-up data.
It could be seen as soft amendment
to run Microsoft Corp. Amendment --
soft cop amendment. I fear it will
be met with vision. I hope that my friend will be able to accept the
amendment in this or some other form as a signal of intent.
If not, at
the very least, I would ask you to make clear on the record the government's acceptance that the current situation disadvantages
fathers unfairly and that there must
be a clear explicit aim of the review to create a system that properly supports fathers and other
second parents to play a full role in their infant children's lives. At second reading, she expressed
respect for the points that I and the noble Baroness lady pen made
about parental leave and the desire
to go further -- Penn.
However, she
also said that we need to go further. The current situation is totally unbalanced, as between the rights of fathers and mothers.
Moreover, workers are gendered
beings and Toro reform of parental leave is no way antibusiness. -- Is
in no way antibusiness. -- thorough reform. It would contribute to
economic growth. Thus, on both gender justice and pragmatic,
economic grounds, I hope the government will accept the amendment and send a strong, symbolic message
to mill workers that their role as fathers is fully recognised and valued.
I beg to move. -- male workers.
17:59
Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (Liberal Democrat)
-
Copy Link
-
Amendment proposed. Insert is
printed on the Marshalled List.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I rise to speak to amendment 76
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I rise to speak to amendment 76
-- 86 in my name. This follows on from Baroness Lister's remarks on amendment 76. Amendment 80 would
amendment 76. Amendment 80 would extend statutory paternity leave to six weeks and allow new fathers to
six weeks and allow new fathers to take this leave at any point within the first year after the child's
the first year after the child's birth. This is rather than being restricted to the current 56 day window. At present, eligible fathers
window.
At present, eligible fathers are entitled to just two weeks of
leave, paid at a rate of less than half of full-time earnings at
minimum wage. The take-up remains low and affordability is a major factor. 62% of fathers say they
factor. 62% of fathers say they
would take more leave if statutory paternity pay was higher. Greater equality in parenting is essential to achieving greater equality in the
workplace. At present, the unequal distribution of caring
responsibilities is a major driver of the gender pay gap.
On average,
women's earnings fall by approximately 40% following the birth of her first child and often
do not recover. By contrast, men's
In 2013, the Liberal Democrats led a
significant step forward. It gave families option to shelter 50 weeks
of leave, 37 weeks of paid. However, it was only a first step and further
reform is clearly needed. Take up of both the shared parental leave and paternity leave remains far too low. Affordability is the central
Affordability is the central
barrier, a poll conducted recently found that 62% of fathers would take more leave if a statutory pay will increase.
The current statutory
rate, as I said, less than half the full-time earning of a minimum wage is insufficient to allow families
with a meaningful choice. This amendment reflects long standing
Liberal Democrat proposals, calling for a more general and flexible
system, in addition to extending the duration of paternity leave, with support increasing statutory
paternity pay to 90% of earnings, a
cap for higher earnings. Also advocating for requiring large
employers to publish their parental leave and ensuring greater transparency and accountability from
hell parental leave is often across the workplace.
This is a practical
and necessary reform that would support early bonding between
fathers and their children, reduce the financial penalty of caregiving
and promote greater gender equality, both at home and in the workplace. My Lords, turning briefly to
amendment one three six in my name. This purely deals with the gap in the legislation and extends
statutory adoption to their self- employed contractors, taking into account the fact that many are
required to work, not an employer employee relationship. I also wish
to briefly comment on and show support for amendment of one three nine, which is in this group in Baroness Penn's name which would make a statutory paternity pay a day
one right for new fathers and
families.
Present eligibility for and paternity pay allows for six
months of consistent services. This allows far too many fathers,
vertically those in part-time or agency work excluded at the very
moment their support is most needed. This isn't just about fairness in the workplace. It is about
supporting families in those precious first days. It is about
allowing both parents to share the load, bond with their child and begin family life on equal footing.
The current system entrenches outdated assumptions about who
provides care, making paternity pay
available from day one would send a powerful signal that would value roles in early childhood and every
child regardless of their payments parents history deserves a good start.
I hope they will consider this amendment thoroughly and
18:05
Baroness Penn (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
consider with this bill. Amid those
consider with this bill. Amid those
consider with this bill. Amid those I will speak to members 127, 128 and 139 in my name. But before doing so I would like to add my support to all the amendments in this group, particularly Baroness Lister
particularly Baroness Lister
particularly Baroness Lister Zimmermann 76, to which I've also added my name. As we have heard already our current system parental
already our current system parental leave is in a desperate need of reform.
And for some of that reform I accept a review is necessary. How can we improve the shared parental
can we improve the shared parental leave, something that I was proud to have worked on in the coalition
have worked on in the coalition government. But I think I and the noble Lord had accept hasn't delivered the change that we want to
see. And how to extend parental leave to self-employed people, mums, dads and adoptive parents at a
dads and adoptive parents at a proper rate of pay.
As the noble
Lady Baroness Lister will no, I do think she is being too generous to
the government with her mind, when this government first took office, the employment rights Minister
committed to the review of parental leave being completed, within their
first year. Now it is meant to be launched within their first year. In a report in the Commons and the Minister only committed to a launch
This This bill. This bill. I This bill. I think This bill. I think even This bill.
I think even on This bill. I think even on the This bill. I think even on the most optimistic timetable will be after 4 July. So, as well as giving important clarity, to the point that
the noble Lady, Baroness Lister has called for, that the review will cover key issues including measures designed to improve fathers a take- up of parental leave, such as a dedicated period of leave and
adequate payment and the inclusion of self-employed fathers, could the noble Lord the Minister give us a reassurance on timelines, will the review be launched within this first
year in government and how long will the review be.
Six months with seem like a reasonable period of time to report back on its outcomes, but I look forward to hearing from the
Minister, what the government's plan Perhaps, while necessary in some areas, it is important not to confuse a review, with action. The Minister kindly met with me, last week to discuss my amendments and it
was clear, and that meeting, that the review would not be a consultation on specific proposals, that would have to come later. So added to any timelines for action,
consultation on the outcomes of the review and then subject to its
In reality we are talking about the timeline extending over several years.
So am afraid that is not good
enough on areas where there is clear evidence to support action, now. And that is on improving paternity leave. It has been said that we are
On how bad are paternity leave is in the UK and how unequal our provision is, between mums, dads and a second
parents. And yet if you increased paternity leave to 6 weeks pay at 90%, of the salary, capture average earnings, as my amendment 127 does,
the evidence of the benefits, is overwhelming. As Baroness Lister has said, it will improve things for dads, this week is mental health awareness week and according to research by downshift in November,
more than half a dads experience multiple symptoms of depression in
the year that the baby is yawn.
82% of that better paternity leave is the number one thing that the
government can do to protect dads mental health. We have heard how it
will support a new mums and kids too. It will support economic growth
and that is supposed to be this government's number one priority.
government's number one priority.
This week it is important and I'm acutely aware that in our discussions on this bill, that we have heard of the concerns from employers that they have expressed
about many different aspects of this
government's plans.
But, in the context of our earlier debate, on a Statutory Sick Pay, it is important to remember the statutory paternity pay is reimbursed, for businesses.
At a rate of 92% for larger businesses and 108 point 5%, for those who qualify for small business
really. And of course, it is not only the pay that affects business, it is the prospect of more
administration and disruption, which can be a concern, which is why, for small businesses, the government
small businesses, the government
Because we are so far behind, many other countries when it comes to paternity leave we can look at
whether those concerns have been borne out in practice, when leave is more generous.
And the short answer is, that they haven't. A study done by the National bureau of economic
research in the US on a Danish parental leave said no reduction in output and decline in well-being when parents took time off, the
One of the reasons of the better paternity leave has a potential to bring such significant economic
gains is that although you lose the dad economic output for the time he is off, the losses are limited to that period, only, while for mothers you see an increase in the labour
market participation and hours work, on a sustained basis.
Increasing the level of economic activity, overall.
I think the clock with research. Reimbursing paternity pay would have course, the cost to government, but
again increased economic activity as a result of the policy would offset
Tells Tells employees Tells employees that Tells employees that that's Tells employees that that's all Tells employees that that's all they
can expect. The Government inverses
re-employers. If a firm wants to go further than statutory entitlements, they burden the cost. That is
particularly difficult. While there are long-term benefits, we get benefits to society for supporting people to start and grow their
families.
We should recognise that. The CIPD asked employers about their views on paternity leave, in 2022 and 2024 and almost half are supported extending the statutory
paternity leave, with only 24%
Briefly turned to other amendments in this group, which make smaller but nonetheless important improvements to our system paternity leave. First amendment 139 which
takes a new day one right paternity leave is included in this bill, and
makes it paid. I have to confess, from everything this government said, I thought it would be paid. As they always talk about extending the right paternity leave and unpaid
parental leave.
Parental leave is always unpaid, so by specifying it for one but not the other. It feels
a little misleading. It also makes no policy sense. We know the biggest
Of paternity leave is financial. The
current statutory rate may be low, but it is far better than nothing at all, particularly at such a point of financial stress and family's lives. It makes no sense to me that
Ministers and the government acknowledged that paternity leave should be a right, but introducing it in a way that makes it hard, if not impossible for those who most
needed to actually take it up.
And the subject, the subject of costs to
business at My Lords, this would be minimal, as I've said, they are reimbursed for this course. And them
at 128 will require businesses, 250 or more employees to publish their
website. That would help people when the thinking about job me to have
transparency on what their entitlements are and it would help create a race to the top. The companies we need to keep pace with
their competitors to attract talent. I like almost every other measure in this bill, this policy has actually been consulted on.
And it showed
that 98% of respondents supported the proposal, including a 96% of businesses and business
One of the consultees could be considered, so Keir Starmer he was asked about this policy, by mums netting 2020 and said, "I completely
support this, in fact I'm really surprised it hasn't already happened. I will wholeheartedly support this. So perhaps, in responding to this debate, the level of the Minister can explain to the Prime Minister why this hasn't happened already and why his government doesn't want to take the opportunity on this bill, to correct it.
18:14
Baroness Morrissey (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
I am also pleased to support and
them at 76, in the name of Baroness Lister and to add my voice to others
in the chamber, parental leave in this country. To concern the number of multinational businesses that
have fallen behind the practices of
other countries. I appreciate as my colleague Baroness Penn is really said, some members of this House
might consider this to be a matter best lead to businesses, rather than government policy. Unfortunately, in
my experience, many British employers, not the ones, cited by Baroness Penn, but the others take a
very old-fashioned view of paternity leave, leaving the UK a risk of
continuing with this unusually gendered approach to parenting and child care.
Which is ultimately detrimental to society, to women, to
detrimental to society, to women, to
men and to the economy. As set out in my register of interest, chair the diversity project, which seeks to future proof, the investment industry's ability to attract and develop the very best talent. We
have been working, with almost 120 member firms, on enhance paternity leave and paid. There are a number
of early adopters, Aviva, Mercers, Janice Henderson and Gia spare who
have all reported positive impacts on culture, retention and staff
morale.
Dragons Den style, I see the Lord shivering there. A competition at our international women's day,
somewhat ironically enhance paternity leave was voted
overwhelmingly by the audience as a single biggest game changer for
women's change. I endorse Baroness Lister's point and others that this would help drive gender equality.
The diversity project has practices mentioned by others. I would look to
the evidence of the impact of enhanced parental leave on jobs, on
society and businesses. One such study entitled the economics of paid
parental leave, published in America found that over 90% of US employers,
of all sizes, including small and medium-sized businesses offered equal paid parental leave to men and
equal paid parental leave to men and
women.
90% reported no discernible
women. 90% reported no discernible
With Britain now as an outlier, I look forward to hearing the
Minister's response to amendment 76, which calls for a proper review of the current situation and to bring
the current situation and to bring
back proposals to Parliament to modernise Britain's family leave policies, encourage and support the role of fathers and family life, encourage more career progression
encourage more career progression for women, create more positive cultures that support Britain's long-term economic success.
long-term economic success.
18:17
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (Green Party)
-
Copy Link
-
I rise to speak to amendment 127,
128 and 129. In fact, all of the amendments in this group have real
value. In my relatively long life,
when I have argued endlessly for human rights, I think there can only
be one or two times when I have stood up and argued for men's rights
because I feel they have 20 of them and they do their own arguing that.
Here, of course, this is a human rights issue.
It's not just men's rights, it's women's rights as well.
The women, the mothers will benefit if the fathers have parental leave because statutory paternity leave
doesn't only support families in their first weeks. It helps to
rebalance society by moving away from a statutory parental leave the
system which sends a strong message that parenting is a women's job and
that men should keep working and stay out of the home. That idea is
not just present in the legislation. It's embedded deeply, deeply rooted
in many people's prejudices.
The imbalance between maternity and
paternity leave is structurally embedding gender differences which
do not benefit society. This legislation can set young families
up for a stronger start ensuring that new fathers have plenty of playtime -- paid time off work in
those first crucial months of a child's development. I do hope the
child's development. I do hope the Prime Minister was listening to the noble Lady 's remarks and that he
noble Lady 's remarks and that he will perhaps urge this House to adopt at least some of these
amendments.
18:19
Lord Russell of Liverpool (Crossbench)
-
Copy Link
-
I put my name to amendment 76 in the name of Baroness Lister and amendments 127 and 128 and the name
amendments 127 and 128 and the name
of Baroness I rise as one of the
only two fathers in this debate so far and I think the only grandfather. I thought it might be helpful to have a balance in the
group of amendments which is about an imbalance in the respective roles of fathers and mothers. It seems to
me that there are three key reasons
to act, rather than to think, and
dance on the head of an ever smaller pin.
The first is the early years argument. I, together with other
noble lords and ladies, will be arguing the case for the early years being included and thought about
very deeply in the children's well- being and Schools Bill. And indeed,
the Secretary of State for Education said that early years was her first
priority. It is an arguable that changing our approach to paternity pay and giving fathers the
opportunity to have a much greater
presence in the lives of their children in the early years and also very importantly in support of their
partner and spouse, particularly if she is working or is attempting to work, is frankly a no-brainer.
So,
in that context, I think that is a
very good first reason. I think the
second reason is that the economic arguments for this are also very, very strong. The report by the
Joseph Rowntree Foundation which came out literally only three weeks
ago, which was mentioned I think by the noble Lady Baroness Lister, is
fairly convincing. I quote from it. Building on the evidence from other countries and the impact of
paternity leave, the Centre for Progressive policy, one would imagine that her Majesty's government would be in favour of an
Institute with a name like that, modelled the economic costs and benefits of more generous paternity
leave options.
This model was built
to help policymakers understand the labour market effects and associated
economic and tax costs of varying paternity leave terms in the UK. Its conclusions were very simple. The
modelling shows a positive economy wide affect of 2.68 billion, driven
by the gains achieved when more women move into work and work more
women move into work and work more
The modelling also shows that the increase in labour market outputs for this policy option is mainly driven by those at the bottom and
middle of the labour market.
Policy
you would think was very close to the government side. The third and
final reason is that for 31 years I was professionally a head hunter. As a head hunter, you become relatively
expert in what I might call the
psychology of attraction and repulsion. What it is that makes people attracted to particular types
of employment or employer, and what it is that detracts from that degree
of attraction. I do think that there is evidence to show increasingly
that companies which are thoughtful
and which are progressive and transparent about the offering they are making to both fathers and
mothers stand a much better chance in this labour market, first of all of attracting people a real talent
who have many choices they could follow up on, and secondly, very
importantly, relating back to some comments that Baroness Fox make --
made in a previous group, that many individuals who have a degree of
trepidation about looking at going into work for potential employers because they are uncertain of the
working environment and how it might impact on their ability to have a
full part in family life, is indeed an important element.
For those
three key reasons I support having
not only a hard look at paternity leave, because as the noble Lady said, we have been looking at this
longer than is necessary or good for us. So, for the good families and
us. So, for the good families and good of children, please, can we
good of children, please, can we just get on with it? -- for the good of families and for the good of children.
18:24
Baroness Whitaker (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
I rise to speak to the amendment in the name of Baroness Lister. All
the speeches to be set out a very
strong case. When I worked in an organisation, I had women colleagues whose partners could not afford to take even the leave they were
entitled to, this further bargaining
the tired mother and losing those
irreplaceable bonding first days to the detriment of both child and
father as lots of Your Lordships' House that. That funding and support
-- that bonding and support is just as important for adopted fathers,
stepfathers, and why should self- employed fathers be unequally treated? They are just as much fathers.
I do hope the Minister will fathers. I do hope the Minister will carry out the review as set out in this amendment.
18:25
Lord Bailey of Paddington (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
I rise in support of amendments
127, one to eight and 139 by
Baroness Penn. I am also a father so I have an interest their. These
amendments will be very useful because currently, as it stands, it is only the well-paid who get access
to serious paternity leave. As
someone who comes from a community that has suffered horribly, horribly
from the absence of fathers, that
early bonding is very important. The impact it has on educational outcomes and finances of the family
are hugely important.
My community is more than three times more likely to be involved in poverty and all the downsides that poverty provides
because of that lack of paternal connection to the family in the
first place. Were also in a country
that is facing a very low birthrate. Many young men in this country will tell you they cannot afford to have
children and paternity leave will be a big part of that. So the idea that
we want to support our birthrate in this country, a demographic
timebomb, is very important.
Also, the mental health of men in this
country has been poor for a very long time. Art of turning that around is raising how fatherhood is
perceived in order for those men, particularly young man, to lean into
that role and also give them upright around being a father that has a very strong knock-on effect for the women involved, help to return to
their own career, as we heard from so many members of Your Lordships'
House, and in the poorest immunities, many of the real
breadwinners are actually the women in the household.
If they could be supported back to work, that has a
profound effect on the mental well-
being of the entire family. I have been on a journey to make this a day one right. Because of the profound
effect that a lack of fatherhood and
a lack of father's presence has on many in society, it should be a day one right. Basically, some things
are just worth paying for. If this has a cost to the government, so be
it, because the benefits, the upsides, socially and financially, are massive and beyond measurement.
The last thing to say as well is the benefit to companies is profound. It
has been well documented. Many have already said that. The challenge
will be for smaller companies were one or two people are a significant
proportion of the workforce. That is where this conversation has to be
sold. That is where the rhetoric around this is very important. If smaller companies can adopted, I
believe it will happen. Companies already know the benefits for the workforce.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I beg to move the debate on this amendment be adjourned. The question is that the house be
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The question is that the house be
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The question is that the house be resumed. As many... The question is the debate on the amendment be
the debate on the amendment be adjourned. All of those in favour say, "Content". Those in the
say, "Content". Those in the
We should allow the Minister to continue other businesses and -- outside the house. I beg to move
outside the house. I beg to move that the house be resumed to consider the statement.
We won't
consider the statement. We won't
return to the bill before 19:08.
18:29
Division
-
Copy Link
The question is that the house be resumed. All of those in favour say, "Content". Those in the contrary
say, "Not content". All of those in favour say, "Content". Those in the
The The issue The issue will The issue will be The issue will be decided The issue will be decided by The issue will be decided by a
The issue will be decided by a
division. I will tell the committee
18:30
Lord Bailey of Paddington (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
the group in the next five minutes, then that would be... But we've had a good debate on this, and it's an
important topic and I think it supported the houses able to finish
having the hearing with any other backbenchers that might wish to
contribute, and also hear from the
Minister. All the House may not be aware, but we've agreed through the
usual channels we have a dinner break to accommodate having the statement and hear from the Minister
and statement from the House.
We are ultimately in the whole House is
hands, but that's why we are
breaking out. I know it's not usual to break midway through group, but as I said it's been agreed through the usual channels would take a
dinner break at 6: 30. It will take priority. So perhaps we could see if
**** Possible New Speaker ****
this could be resolved. I have had confirmation from my side that usual channels have
**** Possible New Speaker ****
agreed. I think the Noble Lord for his
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I think the Noble Lord for his explanation. And stop groaning, you.
explanation. And stop groaning, you. The normal practice is if it says at a convenient point, that means at
**** Possible New Speaker ****
the end of a group. Surely. As I said to the noble Lady
**** Possible New Speaker ****
As I said to the noble Lady
**** Possible New Speaker ****
As I said to the noble Lady Baroness Jones, said the whole House excuse me, I understand this is not unusual, but this is in no way unprecedented as I understand it. We
unprecedented as I understand it. We have broken in the middle of groups
have broken in the middle of groups before. It's not ideal, but we are where we are undertakers in the best interests of the whole House,
especially agreed through the usual channels to be able to hear from both front benches and any other backbenchers on this group in good time and also in the meantime hear
time and also in the meantime hear from the Minister on repeat statements if we get the best of all worlds.
I'm sorry this is in our usual practice and intend not to do
**** Possible New Speaker ****
it in future committee days. At the question again. The question is that the House be
18:32
Urgent Question Repeat: Trade negotiations (around 6.30pm)
-
Copy Link
question is that the House be resumed. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Content". Of the contrary, "Not content." The
contents have it.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
What time? Questions in a statement made in the House of Commons on Tuesday
18:33
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
sixth May on trade negotiations.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
We on these benches welcome free trade. It is a cornerstone of a
trade. It is a cornerstone of a prosperous and competitive economy. It benefits everyone from workers to businesses and from consumers to
businesses and from consumers to industry sectors. Trade allows us to access a broader market to promote
access a broader market to promote innovation and to create jobs. When done right it provides opportunities for UK to grow and to succeed on the global stage. This deal is a
global stage.
This deal is a reminder of one of the key benefits
of Brexit. No longer bound by the limitations of collective EU
limitations of collective EU decision-making we now have the freedom to forge our own trade agreements, tailored to the strengths of our economy and aligned with our national interest. That
with our national interest. That sovereignty over trade policy is a fundamental asset and one that used
fundamental asset and one that used wisely can bring real and lasting prosperity. So I have to confess I'm at a loss to understand what the
at a loss to understand what the government has repeatedly said that this is a matter of opinion and not
fact.
However what we acknowledge the importance of trade agreements and the positive elements of this UK US steel, we must approach it with a
critical eye and an understanding of the broader context. Trade deals are
not simply about negotiating numbers or quotas. They must also be about fairness, sustainability and long- term growth. And in this case I'm concerned that the deal while a step
in the right direction does not go far enough in delivering the kind of comprehensive ambitious agreement we
need. The agreement announced with United States contain some very welcome steps, for example tariff
reductions on cars, access for UK beef producers and the removal of punitive levies on British steel and aluminium to name but a few.
And the
government is right to highlight the thousands of jobs that will benefit
from these provisions. But for example, take the automotive sector. There are more questions that need
answers. Reducing Terrace from 27.5 to 10% is undoubtedly welcome, but
this deal only covers a relatively small quota of 100,000 cars. A figure that represents just a
fraction of total UK car exports. What happens when that quota is reached? Are we going to see tariffs
increase again, and whether the long-term assurances for our manufacturers and workers? And more
strategic and forwardthinking approach is needed.
Also this cannot
be the end of the road. If we are to make the most of our new trading freedoms, we must push for a
composite free-trade agreement, one that goes beyond quotas and partial
tariff relief and that delivers true long-term certainty for British businesses across every sector. The 10% reciprocal tariff on a range of
UK exports remains in place, affecting sectors that are critical to our industrial base and our export strength. The government must
be clear, when will negotiations begin to eliminate these tariffs? Or
have they already started? We urge ministers to move beyond vague
commitments that work will continue and to set out a clear timetable and a strategy for achieving a more
ambitious deal.
There is particular disappointment in the pharmaceutical sector for example where the UK has
not yet secured a carveout from remaining tariffs. This is an industry where Britain leads the
world and we are talking about jobs, innovation and the secure delivery of life-saving medicines, so we must see more urgency from the government
on this front. And what of the creative industries, specifically
film and television? The failure to secure any protection for the sector is alarming. The threat of 100%
levies on UK made films exported to the US remains a serious concern.
This is a world leading industry
with the potential to deliver billions to our economy and showcase
British culture on the global stage. It deserves far greater attention
from the government. We on these benches are not here to oppose free
trade. We champion it. But we do want to see trade deals that are ambitious, balanced and compressive, deals that reflect the best of Britain and support all our key sectors from farmers to filmmakers,
sectors from farmers to filmmakers,
from scientists to steelworkers.
The Noble Lord the Minister was also somewhat vague in answer to the Noble Lord Purvis of Tweed's question yesterday on parliamentary
scrutiny of the deal. In an effort to save her from writing many letters, perhaps she can update us
on this now. This deal is a good start, and that deserves to be recognised that the government must
recognised that the government must now finish the job. We call for greater transparency, clear timelines and firm commitments to extend this agreement into a full
extend this agreement into a full and fair free-trade deal that truly reflects the potential of post Brexit Britain.
Brexit Britain.
18:37
Lord Purvis of Tweed (Liberal Democrat)
-
Copy Link
-
I look forward to the Minister answering the Noble Lord's question
answering the Noble Lord's question
to me. Referring exclusively to India agreement. We have debated in
this House on a number of occasions, UK India trade, and on those
occasions I have expressed the
long-standing idea that free trade is a long-standing part of our
country, benefits consumers and businesses alike and the means by which it is Fair Trade and is
inclusive means that trade can be beneficial for wider policy ambitions on climate sustainability
reduction of poverty, and social justice, and these are the
parameters of which we will judge any agreement that this government signs with other governments as we
did with the previous administration, and specifically on
agreement on India.
We started because from the position that we would wish this agreement well and the government in ensuring that it
is the basis upon which India trade can develop. This is a complex time
in international trade with it being
buffeted by policies and chaos and uncertainty from the United States, and the fact that India has now signed an agreement with UK and on
Monday this week the second -- round
of negotiations between India and the European Union on FDA showed
those of us who believe in whitening free trade around the world need to ensure that we redouble our efforts to reinforce the global trading environment, and the rules upon
which it is based.
The India
agreement has been launched with a high degree of boosters last seen
under the Boris Johnson administration, and of course we would be a world leader in trade, if
press release was a commodity. The
government says we have a series of anticipated benefits as a result of this agreement, no doubt the Minister will rehearse some of those
in her text and reply to the Noble Lord and myself, but looking carefully at the government's technical papers, and not the press
release, we can see that the cash
figures of potential GDP growth, she may quote them in a moment, are purely a mathematical extrapolation
of potential global trade in 2040 which the government has then converted into pounds to, taking a
starting point of 2023.
So it
doesn't take into account the Trump administration's disruption of global trade. All of the cash
figures presented are purely illustrative. The technical papers
also helpfully suggest that the government made a policy decision to
round up to 0.1% for the growth figures, rounding up to 0.1% highlights that there is probably
likely to be modest results as a result. Furthermore, very deep in
the governance papers is that the government to get its very ambitious figures on UK trade growth, they've
taken the starting point as the baseline of 2019.
Which doesn't take
into consideration the pandemic, the Ukraine war, the Trump supply chain
issues. So it started at High Point in order to get higher. All of this
means that we don't necessarily oppose the agreement in principle, but we look at it from perhaps a more realistic and sober
perspective. And the issue then becomes how we will support our businesses to take advantage of the
new market access arrangements. According to the United Nations data
figures, India has seen its exports rise over the last 10 years by
13.2%.
This is an export market where obviously the UK consumer
wishes to benefit from. UK exports over the same time have expanded by
only 5.1%. This is marginal growth over a decade, so it's right that we want to be part of a growing market.
But the European Union export growth
has expanded by over 9.5% over the same period, nearly double the UK
rate. So we now have barriers erected, additional cost, more bureaucracy with the European Union, and we are trying to reduce them to
India.
So the fundamental issue is not that we have a tariff agreement, is how British businesses will see
the Indian market as barrier free, open and accessible across all
states, reliable under a rule of law with less corruption, more transparency so that we can trade more and businesses are supported
more to access the market, which this agreement theoretically
facilitates, so I'd be grateful if the Minister could say the practical steps of actively supporting
businesses that will take advantage of this agreement. Because there is
little reference so far in what the
government has said, I hope the Minister can confirm that the agreement will include a human rights chapter.
With clearly articulated mechanisms to address human rights supply chain concerns
that have been raised in this House
on number of occasions including by myself, for example on broadcasting
and Civil Liberties. So if there is to be market access on digital and media and broadcasting, then are we
ensuring that that is reciprocated and the restrictions that have been put in place for media have been
lifted? Will the Minister confirmed that there will be a climate chapter in the agreement and that demonstrates this agreement reduces
emissions rather than contributes? And given the fact that as a reference -- as I referenced on
reference -- as I referenced on
Monday, India and the UK and EU announce their intent for an agreement by the fourth quarter of
this year, and whether or not this happens is out of the governments hands, complete you understand, but any comparative advantage that we are likely to have as a result of
this agreement is likely to be impacted if there is indeed an agreement between India and the European Union and on rules of
origin and other areas of standards, how will we triangulate between India and EU trade? Finally, can I
ask the Minister with regard to
potential trade diversion, and to preference erosion as a result of this agreement? In the previous
government's scoping document, it had in annex nine of the technical
paper, and the House is well aware I look for all the juicy details in
all these agreements is in annexes, and typically after page 200, and
that showed that with all of the likely potential trade benefits for
the UK of over £5 billion, which is very similar to this government's estimate, it's likely there will be
trade preference and trade erosion
of over 3.25 of over £3.25 billion.
That means that we have to discount all of the benefits from the India
agreement with the diversion of trade and the preference erosion
from other countries. Primarily, Bangladesh and Pakistan, Kenyan and Senegal, Ghana, Indonesia,
Philippines and Jamaica. From alone, the previous government estimated
that trade erosion would be £1.5
billion less trade with the UK. So I hope that the government will have an impact assessment which clearly articulates the likely trade erosion
and trade preference. And yes, I do ask the government whether or not
there will be primary legislation required as a result of this and the extent of it and when we are likely
extent of it and when we are likely
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I thank noble Lords for their responses to the question and the Ministers policy statement. It is
18:46
Baroness Gustafsson, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
Ministers policy statement. It is lovely to see the support for trade that we all share. I'm happy to
answer questions but I would like to step back and consider the agreement we are due to discuss in context.
Fundamentally, as Lord Purvis says,
the UK is a trading nation. The issue is deeply rooted within our DNA. Stronger trade ties with
partners around the world in
championing free, fair and open trade delivers back here generating growth, boosting wages and
supporting wages in every corner of the UK.
This openness to trade has
cemented the UK's reputation with
the home of iconic brand sought- after around the world, but it is why we have been clear eyed pursuing
a deal with India, one of the fastest growing economies in the
world. Despite the strong ties linking our nations, there is space to strengthen with economic
connections. This is a modern, compressive agreement that will
increase UK GDP by £4.8 billion in the long run and bilateral trade
which is already £43 billion will
increase by 25.5 billion.
15.7 billion of which is expected to be
UK. For the first day this deal enters into force, India agreed to
cut tariffs worth 400 million times and it will jump to £900 million after 10 years. It has unlocked unprecedented access to the
procurement market in India giving access to 40,000 tenders worth £48
billion. New commitments in customs and digital trade will make it
easier and cheaper to deal with India than ever before. I hear the
challenge about how the spreadsheets work and the models that sit behind it, and are we being optimistic?
These are very realistic measures, but ultimately an approximation of the benefit this opportunity will
bring us.
It is also not a limit. We will benefit above and beyond, but I
can assure you this is based on modelling worldwide standards, but at the signing of the trade deal,
and impact assessment will be published to give you some more small print to go through which I
know you will enjoy. We looked in access to service companies and stronger ties in areas like
anticorruption and provided business with the certainty at the time it is
dearly lacking. I welcome the support this deal has had from across the House and those who
recognised it for what it is, a landmark agreement with one of the most exciting and dynamic economies
in the world.
I have been warned by the support from the businesses who
will use this deal including British Chambers of Commerce, the Institute
of directors, the Scotch whiskey association, National Farmers Union, Food and Drink Federation, techUK,
the Premier League, Standard
Chartered, and more. I want to address the double contributions convention which we agreed to negotiate, implement and parallel with this free trade agreement.
There has been speculation and misinformation regarding this element of the agreement. To set the
record straight, it is reciprocal and designed to prevent the double
payment of social security contributions for those workers
known as detached workers, sent by workers on a temporary basis and long-term jobs are based in their original country.
This is for the
benefit of both countries and the UK
agreed numerous GCC over recent years including Iceland, Norway and Lycian sign in 2023, Switzerland in
-- -- DCC. -- DCC. -- -- DCC. -- Iceland. -- DCC. -- Iceland. There -- DCC. -- Iceland. There have -- DCC. -- Iceland. There have been
claims the agreement undercuts UK
workers. The double contributions convention supports UK workers particularly those in the world- class service sector. The agreement
will boost wages in the UK by £2.2 billion, putting money into the pockets of working people right
across the country.
I'm well aware that many in the House will be keen
to understand the intricacy of the agreement and have a knife in detail. They published a summary
document that looks at every part of
the agreement. --- an eye for detail. As with any free trade agreement, parliamentarians will have ample opportunity to scrutinise the deal which is subject to the
usual ratification procedures under the government act in 2010. It will
also be scrutinised by Parliament
via the standard processes outlined in the CRAG act.
It will be
scrutinised and passed by Parliament in the usual way before ratification. I hear the challenge
about human rights record and the UK
is a leading advocate for human rights around the world and we remain committed to the promotion of universal human rights. Where we
have concerns, they are raised with the government of India including at ministerial level. It has been
undertaken separately to trade negotiations but they are part of building open and trusting
relationships with important
partners.
I feel the avenue for communal trade support our ability to work in those matters greatly.
There is also a question about if we are eroding the trade and how that
will be received. We send out further information on the impact
assessment. The free trade agreement will include India's first ever trading development chapter in an
FTA, but the UK and India will monitor the effect of the agreement on developing countries and
facilitate effective dialogue in this space will undermine our search
and funding and look at future development programs.
To conclude,
the trade minister outlined in the
other place that the UK business, certainty and stability during a time of global uncertainty and
instability and it will give British businesses access to the biggest markets abroad while raising wages
and driving growth at home.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I would like to thank the noble lady for the account of the agreement, with India and with the
agreement, with India and with the
agreement, with India and with the United States. The process will be for the India deal with respect of
for the India deal with respect of the House and the arrangements will be triggered, but she said nothing
about the deal with the United States. Could she reply to the question what parliamentary scrutiny
question what parliamentary scrutiny process will be applied to the deal with the United States? And
with the United States? And secondly, could she say if the United States deal is consistent
United States deal is consistent with the UK most-favoured-nation
with the UK most-favoured-nation treaty treatment under the General agreement on tariffs and trade.
agreement on tariffs and trade. Also, whether the US agreement will
Also, whether the US agreement will fulfil the provisions to give a
**** Possible New Speaker ****
waiver to any discrimination? I said I would follow-up in writing in respect of that which I will do so in the response as I
will do so in the response as I commented yesterday. My parliamentary knowledge is not yet
**** Possible New Speaker ****
at section 24. I warmly welcome this statement,
particularly in its emphasis in negotiations with India or the Scottish whiskey injury and the
Scottish whiskey injury and the benefits it will leave the Scottish
18:55
-
Copy Link
benefits it will leave the Scottish economy. Could I ask the Minister if she will confirm that this will reduce tariffs in Scottish whiskey
from 150% to 75% at entry moving to
40% after 10 years? Briefly just to see that Labour has succeeded in
see that Labour has succeeded in negotiations where the previous Tory government patently failed, does my noble friend think it would be appropriate that the team should
appropriate that the team should celebrate with a dram and if she needs any advice on the Scottish needs any advice on the Scottish whiskey she can partake, I'm more than happy to provide that.
18:55
Baroness Gustafsson, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
Wonderful to hear and they were
the celebration indeed and I am delighted as a result of the deal
Scotland will benefit from a variety of exports which includes whiskey
of exports which includes whiskey where the current 150% tariff will
where the current 150% tariff will reduce to 75% from day one of the deal and reach 40% after 10 years
deal and reach 40% after 10 years and the Scotch whiskey association described it as a once in a generation landmark moment which is transformational for Scotch whiskey
exports.
exports.
18:56
Lord Lansley (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
Many of us on the international agreement Committee at an earlier stage were looking at the difficulties of negotiating a deal
with India and realise it is significant and welcome. It is not as comprehensive as we had hoped
that it might be. Positively, I would like to say I'm glad to see the procurements opportunities it
offers, and could the Minister tell
us in that regard access to procurement in India is large-scale, but what we need is something
digitally available like electronic
daily.
Is there an access for small businesses to procurement opportunities through that kind of
mechanism? Secondly, we had hoped at
one time that we might and it might be significant to have a dispute settlement provision in the deal and
I don't understand that there is such a thing, but are there side letters about giving assurance to UK
investors in India for the future? With regards to parliamentary scrutiny, the CRAG provisions will
apply, but would the Minister reiterate what we call the Brimstone rule, if our international agreement
rule, if our international agreement Committee recommends it should be debated by the House, that such a
debated by the House, that such a debate would take place before the government proceeded to
ratification? ratification?
18:57
Baroness Gustafsson, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
For example on the investor treaty, and how we make sure we get
investor protections for people looking to invest across borders,
the bilateral investment treaty is not included as part of the free trade agreement and that is the next stage of the agreement and that will
be what gets followed up afterwards. The negotiations are ongoing and
will be part of future conversations. You asked a second
conversations. You asked a second question would you mind repeating? question would you mind repeating?
18:58
Baroness Hoey (Non-affiliated)
-
Copy Link
-
The rule is that the government commits that the international agreement Committee said the deal should be debated, the treaty
debated by the House, that debate takes place before the government
**** Possible New Speaker ****
proceeds to ratification? Would you mind if I follow-up on that one? Thank you.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
that one? Thank you. The Minister will know not all these trade deals apply to Northern
these trade deals apply to Northern Ireland. In the other place yesterday, the Secretary of State
yesterday, the Secretary of State for business said basically it was because of the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement and the Windsor Framework
Agreement and the Windsor Framework and we need to protect the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement. What
Belfast/Good Friday Agreement. What is the detail of businesses in Northern Ireland treated differently in the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement
in the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement and we should be left within the European Union courts and rules in
**** Possible New Speaker ****
the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement? Perhaps the noble lady would
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Perhaps the noble lady would accept we are getting tied of the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement being
**** Possible New Speaker ****
used in so many different ways. I hear the frustration and we want businesses in Northern Ireland
want businesses in Northern Ireland to benefit to the fullest extent they can and that is what we expect.
Businesses in Northern Ireland exporting goods and services benefit
from this free trade agreement just as businesses elsewhere in the United Kingdom will. Businesses
exporting from Northern Ireland will benefit from the free trade agreement and it should be a good
news story. When we think about businesses importing into Northern
Ireland from India, with Indian originating grids entering Northern Ireland, they will do so under the
free trade agreement providing that the goods are not at risk of entering the EU.
This is where the
Windsor Framework kicks in and that will make sure that under the usual process of the Windsor Framework
process of the Windsor Framework that that is protected, but business operating within Northern Ireland operating within Northern Ireland will benefit from the terms of the free trade agreement.
19:00
Baroness Gustafsson, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
To welcome these trade
agreements, I congratulate the government on achieving them. I note
that my dioceses in Manchester has a large Indian diaspora community will work hard to help exports as a result of this when they have the
result of this when they have the
result of this when they have the opportunity. I do not know if the question from the LibDem bench was answered a few moments ago,
answered a few moments ago, referencing human rights and climate change.
I would like to widen that slightly and think of this upcoming
slightly and think of this upcoming trade strategy that the statement referred to, asking if there is any
ethical component, moral matters, considerations in any part or if
considerations in any part or if considerations in any part or if
Element to commit a little bit on the environmental aspect, and I
think this is Indian's first-ever chapter on the environment within a
free-trade agreement, so it really is a plus for them, and it's going further than ever before.
It
requires India to promote high and continually improving levels of environment protection, reaffirms
our joint Commitment to the Paris agreement and standards through
non-derogation commitments. It's a great step and it's a big first step, but a free-trade agreement
step, but a free-trade agreement can't fix all environmental issues, and we are clear that the environment issues that are most effectively tackled when we work
directly and closely with our partners through this international
partners through this international approach. And I think having a deal like this really solidifies our relationship and provides much broader access and opportunity to exert their influence.
19:02
Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
I would like to thank my noble friend the Minister on the
frontbench for her statement. I welcome this trade deal, and I for one welcome the Belfast good Friday
agreement and also the Windsor Framework and believe that we should
be availing of every opportunity to
notwithstanding certain shall we say threats that may be made, notwithstanding that, I would ask my Noble Friend the Minister in light of previous questions, what discussions will be held with the
Northern Ireland Executive about
potential opportunities for trade between Northern Ireland and India
between Northern Ireland and India to avail of every opportunity and our ability also to access the UK Internal Market and the EU in terms
of goods? of goods?
19:03
Baroness Gustafsson, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
I think this free-trade agreement presents a whole selection of
opportunities for trade between India and Northern Ireland. But it's
not the only one. And I think we as a government will be working closely with those devolved governments to
think about those opportunities and build on them, collaboratively and
talking from my particular area around things like investment. We
are working very closely with those governments to understand what are those trade and investment opportunities? And how do we as that
central government really amplify some of those opportunities and when I'm travelling the world talking to these other investors and sharing
opportunities that exist, not just here within this mile radius of
where we stand today but all across the UK that benefit can be felt
throughout.
throughout.
19:04
Baroness Lawlor (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
My Lords, I thank the noble Lady
**** Possible New Speaker ****
for her question.... One of the points made, which is
**** Possible New Speaker ****
One of the points made, which is you mentioned that Indian firms could send their employees to work
could send their employees to work here. Does the government have any idea of the numbers involved? And
idea of the numbers involved? And what the government put a cap on those numbers? Bearing in mind the
those numbers? Bearing in mind the Prime Minister's statement yesterday and that of the Home Secretary. And
and that of the Home Secretary. And what mechanisms will be in place to ensure that when the three years are
19:05
Baroness Gustafsson, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
over, those employees will return? And finally, the noble Lady the
Minister mentioned that there was a
worry which she answered that they would not undercut British workers.
But may I ask the noble Lady, what steps will be taken so that UK
workers here, local workers can
avail of the opportunities of this deal by seeking employment with Indian firms?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you. And you provide some reassurance there. We are talking
reassurance there. We are talking about here is there is no change in the visa process, the points-based immigration system. That is not
immigration system. That is not affected or implemented, so there's
affected or implemented, so there's no change or different routes for these applications as a consequence
these applications as a consequence of this deal. What this is articulating is in those limited instances where you have those detached workers that are employed by an Indian company doing a short-
by an Indian company doing a short- term contract within the UK, they are not paying those social
are not paying those social security, in both situations.
While
security, in both situations. While this is not doing is changing their visa application in any way, changing the immigration policy around that. So that will be consistent with the current
19:06
Baroness Falkner of Margravine (Crossbench)
-
Copy Link
-
processes that are in place to make sure that any pieces that do get granted I replied and people are understood to be in the country
legally and where they are not, forces come in where they normally
**** Possible New Speaker ****
would. I declare an interest as chair of
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I declare an interest as chair of the equality and human rights commission, but I am speaking in a personal capacity today. I haven't
heard the Minister explain to the House whether in following the usual processes that will be publishing
processes that will be publishing and human rights assessment and the other impact assessments raised by
other impact assessments raised by Lord Purvis of Tweed in advance of
19:07
Baroness Gustafsson, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
the debate in this House? And on a related, on a slightly different point, can I also say to her that in
the projections and the wonderful figures that her modelling paints
for a future some decades out if I
might say so, have they taken into
account the long-term impact of geostrategic instability in that
particular region, South Asia? We are witnessing that now as we speak.
The geostrategic instability.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Yes, thank you. So in terms of the process, and then the time about the impact statement, the
the impact statement, the negotiations are concluded, so we
negotiations are concluded, so we are going the final stages to get this treaty signed which will be happening as quickly as possible, hopefully in the coming months. There will be a process as we talked
19:08
Lord Lilley (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
There will be a process as we talked about for the CRAG and will be discussed at parliamentary level, and the full impact statement will
be released as well as the full trade agreement on signature, so there should be available in coming
months shortly. With regard to the human rights aspect as I've talked about, that is something that is
**** Possible New Speaker ****
subject to an ongoing conversation and will be dealt with separately. I strongly support the free-trade
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I strongly support the free-trade elements in this deal, not just
elements in this deal, not just because it's a Brexit benefit, which I'm sure the Minister welcomes, but
I'm sure the Minister welcomes, but given the Indians strongly wanted to link immigration to this free-trade deal, could you give us an assurance that the strange loophole in the
that the strange loophole in the intracompany transfer arrangements
intracompany transfer arrangements although not incentivised by the tax issues which she referred, they haven't been given a guarantee that
haven't been given a guarantee that it will continue.
And can you say where there has been any change in
where there has been any change in the situation since the last published figures which showed that two thirds of all the intracompany
transfers coming into the country come from the contractor route,
19:09
Baroness Gustafsson, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
which means that people are actually migrants employed by a contractor
and then supplied to British firms. And that 97% of those come from
India. It's a loophole that seems to
be geared to the needs of the Indian
desire to explore some of their people. Can she confirm no assurance has been given that this loophole will not be closed? It was 26,000 people in a single year from India
in the last available figures.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I think I would like to repeat some of the statements that I made earlier here. And that is that we
are not giving away visas, not creating new routes as part of this
creating new routes as part of this deal. And existing mobility routes have been expanded to cover additional sectors, so people say
19:10
Baroness Hoey (Non-affiliated)
-
Copy Link
-
additional sectors, so people say that there are broad number of sectors that will now be considered that mobility visa, but that doesn't
necessarily change the quota, so it's the same number of people
accessing those facilities. Those facilities have not changed. It's just we will consider a broader
range of sectors when considering those visa applications. To qualify for the roots professionals must
for the roots professionals must demonstrate to meet strict criteria for professional experts and qualifications as consistent with the current process.
19:10
Baroness Gustafsson, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
The nobility is very honest and straightforward I know, as all Noble
Lords of course R. But would you like to state which seem to be no
other government minister wishes to state that we wouldn't be having this discussion and these deals if
we hadn't actually left the European Union.
19:10
Lord Lilley (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
I do try and be as honest and straightforward as I possibly can, and I think I will refer back to the
numbers we talked about when we talked about modelling the numbers. And there is a lot of what if and
what House but the reality is we have to deal with the state of the world as it is today. And that
presents some threats in some corners but some opportunities and
others. And I think what was in front of us was the opportunity to really build and expand on our relationship with India in a way
that supports both our nations, and it's an opportunity we grabbed with
**** Possible New Speaker ****
both hands and made the most of. Very grateful to the very frank and open reply of the noble minister
19:11
Baroness Gustafsson, Minister of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
for my question, which I found actually rather worrying. I hadn't realised that there were existing restrictions on the intracompany
transfer route to particular sectors. And this is going to be liberalised and widened to
additional sectors. Could you possibly write me and put it in the
library what the extent was before, how wide it will be in future and some estimate of the extra migration
some estimate of the extra migration into this country which is going to come, and whether any account was taken of that in the statement on taken of that in the statement on migration from the Home Secretary the other day?
I can assure you that that worry
is unfounded.
The numbers will not be changing, but I'm happy to write you to follow up in terms of the
you to follow up in terms of the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
sectors that will now be included. Could the nobility write to me
and let me know what numbers are involved in these company transfers
to this country as matters stand? Have forgotten the idea of the numbers for whom companies will want
numbers for whom companies will want permission to send here?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
permission to send here? I would be very happy to write
**** Possible New Speaker ****
you, yes indeed, thank you. Has to meet again in committee on
**** Possible New Speaker ****
the Employment Rights Bill. I beg to move the House do not
19:13
Legislation: Employment Rights Bill - committee stage (day 3) - part one
-
Copy Link
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I beg to move the House do not resolve itself into a committee on the bill. The question is the House do not resolve itself into a committee and
resolve itself into a committee and the bill. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Content". Of the contrary, "Not content." The
contrary, "Not content." The
76. 76.
19:13
Lord Harlech (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
I rise to speak in support of amendments 127, 128, and 139 in the
name of my Noble Friend Baroness Penn and in so doing declare my
interests as an employer and also the father of a four-month-old son.
The amendments in this group seem to deliver a fairer, more modern and
more economically rational approach to paternity leave in this country. These amendments are modest in scope
but transformative in impact. They are not about political ideology.
They are about justice, equality, family well-being, and economic prudence.
The case for action is
overwhelming. Today in the United Kingdom we grandmother is 52 weeks
of maternity leave, fathers receive just two weeks. And they are paid a
mere £187, 18p per week for it, which is less than half the national
living wage. That's not support. That's a symbolic gesture. And it's
one that fails our families, fails our economy and fails our vision for a truly modern and inclusive
society. As we heard, the UK has the least generous paternity leave system in Europe.
And we ranked 40th out of 43 OECD nations. While 22
OECD countries offer six weeks or
more of well-paid reserved paternity leave, the UK offers just 0.4 weeks
of full-time equivalent paid leave. Is that the legacy that we wish to defend? These amendments seek to
correct that imbalance. They do
three vital things. Make statutory paternity pay day one right, just like paternity leave will be under
the bill. Increase paternity leave from two to six weeks and raise the
rate of pay to 90% of the father's salary, capped at median earnings.
And require transparency from large employers by mandating publication
Each of these reforms is supported
by robust evidence and economically justified and most importantly backed by overwhelming public
support. The government rightly
proposes to make paternity leave a day one right, yet it does not extend that logic to pay. What
message does that send? That a father may take time off but go
without income to do so. This is
that the arrangement in the House and perhaps if the government is about fairness and workers rights,
it may be something it wishes to take up with the commission.
Research shows the biggest barrier
to fathers taking paternity leave is affordability. Nearly 3/4 of those cut leave short because they could not afford to stay off work any
longer. What use is leave if it is
unpaid? Why six weeks and why 90% pay? We know from Sweden, Germany
and beyond the reserves well paid leave for fathers leads to profound benefit for families, women's
equality, for children and national prosperity. OECD data shows that in countries offering fathers six weeks or more of well paid leave the
gender wage gap is 4% smaller and the women's labour force participation is higher.
Why?
Because shared caregiving allows mothers to return to work soon and
on fairer terms. It is not just a women's issue, but a fairness issue
for all parents and smart economic policy. The economic argument is
striking. Closing the gender pay gap could boost UK economic output by 23
billion and increase paternity leave to six weeks or 90% pay would
generate an economic benefit of 2.6
billion. This is based off of sound modelling endorsed by reputable analysts including the Joseph
Rowntree Foundation.
Moreover, 90% of businesses surveyed by the CBI
say inclusive workplace practices
help them attract and retain talent. Nearly 3/4 of employers who offer enhanced paternity leave report higher productivity, something we
were discussing in this country in
earlier groups and this is a solution to help it, and employee
engagement. Let us discard the myth that this is a bureaucratic cost,
but really it is a smart investment for business. Let us remember the human case. Better paternity leave
benefits children.
Children with engaged fathers like Lord Bailey was
saying earlier benefits children. Children with engaged fathers show a
higher academic achievement, greater resilience and stronger social
skills. It benefits mothers when care is shared and women can more easily return to the workplace and
pursue their career. It benefits fathers, longer paternity leave
leads to better mental-health, something we were hearing about earlier, stronger father-child bond
and more engaged parenting throughout childhood. If we want to
build a society where men are not just allowed but expected and supported to care for their
children, then this is the place to start.
I will close with a final
point, the public is with us on this point. 81% agree that more generous
paternity leave is good for families
and the country. Support is across party lines and all back the
measure. This is not a fringe issue. It is a mainstream demand and a
moral necessity. We have an
opportunity, perhaps a once in a generation opportunity, to reshape the way this country supports
fathers, mothers and children in their earliest days together.
A
proposed amendment is reasonable, grounded in evidence and long overdue. I urge the government to
**** Possible New Speaker ****
accept them. It is a pleasure to follow the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
It is a pleasure to follow the compelling case for these amendments. I rise to speak in
19:20
Baroness Smith of Llanfaes (Plaid Cymru)
-
Copy Link
-
amendments. I rise to speak in strong support of Amendment 76 and 139 tabled by Baroness Penn and
Baroness Lister. The UK statutory paternity leave just two weeks paid
at £187 just two weeks paid at £187.18 p per week is the most
limited in Europe. In many OECD countries, six weeks leave is at the equivalent of full pay and is
standard. By comparison, our offer
is inadequate and outdated. Eligibility for paternity leave is
restrictive and requires continuous employment with the same employer for 26 weeks before the 15th week
prior to the due date, excluding many fathers especially those in insecure work, the self-employed, or
those working in the gig economy.
Many are forced to take unpaid leave
or use holiday just to be present at the start of their child's life. The
impact is significant. The TUC
report half of families struggle financially when a parent takes paternity leave and one in five do
not take the leave they are entitled
to, mostly for financial reasons. Research found that 70% of fathers
who did not take full leave had to cut it short due to cost. This is not just about finances and affects
bonding with the child, support for
the mother or birthing.
The lack of
accessible leave limits shared parenting and is a contributor to the gender pay gap and pension pot
inequality in their future. The Employment Rights Bill includes provision to address some of these
issues. Clause 15 and 16 removes the qualifying period for unpaid parental paternity leave and clause
17 removes the requirement to take
adoption leave before parental leave allowing paternity adoption leave to
be taken followed parental leave. This clause fails to tackle the
lower amount of statutory paternity pay and fails to extend fathers and second parents, leave entitlement
past two weeks.
While the Labour Party committed a manifesto to
review the parental leave system more broadly I believe the Employment Rights Bill divides an
opportunity in the here and now to implement changes that will make a real difference to families and
people considering having children.
As Lord Bailey mentioned in terms of
the lower birthrates at the moment and that is an important context to consider in these amendments.
Amendment 139 from Baroness Penn is a practical and immediate step
forward, and would require statutory paternity pay to be a Day 1 right, removing unnecessary barriers to the
thousands of working parents.
Amendment 76 from Baroness Lister
backed also by Baroness Penn with mandate and comprehensive review of
paid parental leave in six months of the bill becoming law. Importantly,
it sets the terms to consider a statutory non-transfer payment of paid leave for second parents.
Raised pay levels and includes the
self-employed. This is not a social issue but an economic one and many noble Lords mentioned the modelling
by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation and the scent of progressive policy
which suggests increasing paternity
leave to six weeks at 90% of earnings could contribute to .68 billion to the UK economy by
supporting mothers to return to work and encourage shared care from the
outset.
Countries with more than six week paid paternity leave have a smaller gender pay and participation
gap. The international example shared by noble Lords during this
debate, and benefits are clear and
public supports reform. Only 18% believe the current offer is sufficient. Other amendments have
been spoken to, including amendment 18 from Lord Palmer and amendment
127 from Baroness Penn proposing extended leave and further paid. The
case for reform is clear and compelling and has been made in this
group.
The Employment Rights Bill offers an opportunity to modernise paternity leave, benefiting
families, the economy, and gender equality at work. I urge the Minister to consider the strength of
the argument presented today and
respond with the action it deserves. respond with the action it deserves.
19:25
Lord Ashcombe (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
I rise to speak in support of Amendment 127, 128 and 139 in the
name of Baroness Penn. I would like to think the birth of any child is
an important day in the eyes of the father as well, yet when it comes to parental leave, granted by
companies, they are treated very
differently. 52-week for the mother and two weeks for the father. On this basis as we have heard, the
United Kingdom compares very unfavourably with other European
nations.
In addition, 22 OECD nations offer six weeks pay, and the
equivalent of 100% salary. Statutory pay for these two weeks, this country is currently the lesser of
the government weekly rate and £187.18 p or 90% of the average weekly earnings. A modest amount by
any measure and the average hard- working man is paid just under £700
a week. We have heard from other noble Lords the benefits to fathers
themselves, mothers and children when fathers are permitted to spend a longer period of time with the
family in the earlier period of the
child's life.
I wish to draw on my personal experience and as I have
said before the company I work for, the large insurance broker, has a very mature policy on maternity leave with fathers being allowed to
take up to 16 weeks when the company will ensure they continue to be paid the equivalent of 100% salary for
the time away from the workplace.
Importantly, the job remains open for this period of time in order to facilitate retirement. This is not
available to me when my son was born in the 1990s.
I have not yet reached
in the 1990s. I have not yet reached
grandfather Lord Woolf of Liverpool.
I am sure our competitors offer something similar as competition for
staff is always an ongoing issue and
benefits count enormously in any discussion should a member of staff wish to move. It helps to find the
culture of the company which cares not only for itself but also the
lives of their colleagues. I do not believe as suggested in amendment
128 asking for parental leave policies to be published by large companies.
An owner's request and
enables comparable and encourage
best practices across the industry and I support it. -- onerus. Happy
staff tend to do good work and this is a stressful time in family life.
Mental health of staff is important as we refer to Lord Bailey of
Paddington and others this
afternoon. It is one thing for a large company to offer a long period
of paternity leave with the balancing of colleague workload. But it becomes more challenging as the
company gets smaller.
I am not suggesting for a moment that all
companies should offer generous
periods of paternity leave as my own as much as I would have enjoyed at
the time. The birth of any child I hope is an exciting and nerve wracking experience which can be
ameliorated by parents being able to spend more time together during this
period. Two weeks of eternity leave is simply not enough and I would encourage the government to extend
this statutory period for paternity leave as suggested in the amendment
to six weeks with a more generous level of salary that will hopefully
encourage fathers to take time off as proposed in amendment 127 which I
demonstrated is often exceeded in many workplaces.
I would like to
look briefly at amendment 139 and I change my opinion during the debate
in the name of Baroness Penn. I
believe companies of all sizes feel
Day 1 paternity leave is a step too far as a new employee has not even walked through the door. However if
the government insists on this, it only seems right that fathers should
receive statutory pay as a minimum. Companies obviously still have the opportunity to decide if they go
further as would be the case for
employees who have been part of a workforce for a certain period of time.
19:30
Lord Gascoigne (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
I rise to support Baroness Penn in support of Amendment 127 and in
doing so declare I have an interest and I'm increasingly discovering it
is a growing financial interest in the form of my two daughters who say
the form of my two daughters who say
I confess I'm glad that does my Noble Friend Baroness Penn leading the charge here on this amendment
and the noble Baroness Baroness
Lister leading the group. Because I rise with some trepidation, and unconscious though I'm not alone in this, that in speaking to this amendment as a man I am putting
myself slightly in the firing line that somehow I imply that a man who
should have the exact same as the woman who is this just carried and
given birth to the child.
But as has been said, this isn't about more rights for the man. It's more than
that. It's about ensuring a dad can
But to crucially be there for the mama. And I'm lucky and immensely grateful that on both occasions when my wife gave birth to our children
that I had to supportive bosses, one of him I'm delighted to still be my boss in the form of the opposition
Chief Whip. When the time came my Noble Friend worked with me to give me support in time I wanted to be with my family and long with other colleagues when I was in the
government website is, two of whom I'm pleased to say I see here in the form of Lord Evans and Lord Hollick, we all work together to ensure that
we all work together to ensure that
we all got the time we wanted to be home, but especially me.
This is an unique but I was lucky that it was offered, lucky that it was an open
dialogue, that I can ask for what I like without recourse and was complete understood, and lucky that support extended beyond the time I was at home. I was also lucky that
my child was healthy and that I had
my in-laws to help out. To me as
with so many in the country, I want to be at home to help but also share those early moments. I think as was said earlier about the precious
moments in a young child's life.
I was there to help, tidy, ferry,
feed, give cover and support my wife who was recovering after surgery,
and if I made to give a personal, expect personal circumstances, on both circumstances in which my children were born, the birth wasn't
simple. The first required emergency
surgery, only to return for another stay in hospital a week after returning home, and was second child again it was, get it despite being a
planned cesarean. The surgery didn't go and are required weeks of continuing hospital visits.
There is
no way at all that my wife on her return could have looked after a newborn child, never mind our eldest
or indeed herself. And I say this not for sympathy, not to say that
I'm special or unique or that I deserve any better support than others. The general statistics show
that labour on average can run up to 18 hours and whilst around 46% of
women who give birth in England stay one day in postnatal care, around 40% of women stayed two days, there is an increase over the last decade
of Caesareans, amounting to over 40% of births.
And here it is worth reflecting that the advice on the
back of Caesareans is that they should be weeks for the mother of not lifting anything heavier than your own baby. And not everyone is
able to have a family network or wider family network to rally in
support, so whilst I was lucky I had that support from work, some aren't lucky. They can't and don't have a choice and have to return to work sooner than they would like as the
noble Baroness Smith was saying just recently.
And to divert online the other day the one that was back working 24 hours after the child was
born. I'm a realist and know that money doesn't grow on trees and many businesses already provide longer and better parental leave. Some may say that they have concerns about
the impact of business and the economy, and I won't comment on the bill as a whole but is busily right that each and every day we should be
supporting and helping businesses to grow. They pay the taxes and employ people.
Research shows that three quarters of employers who offer
extended leave see an increase in productivity and dating and also
100% of father's advice ability is a deal breaker when looking for
employment. So in conclusion, as my Noble Friend was saying earlier,
Baroness Penn, it is good for parents that they help so they can help and support one another. It's good for the child to ensure that
support is there for them to build bonds as part of a new unit, and it's good for forming another
special bond, a bond between an employer and employee, and I hope
that all Noble Lords, including my own party, especially my own party, recognise the merits of this
amendment as something good for both business and families.
19:35
Baroness O'Grady of Upper Holloway (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
I only wanted to speak very
briefly, but I did want to observe how heartening it is to hear right
across the House support for the
amendments in this group, and in particular I wanted to just speak to Lady Lister's and Lady Penn's, as
I've already shared with Lady Penn, when I was at the TUC, I very
vividly remember having
conversations with young men who were working as riders and delivery drivers, and they really really
wanted to be good dads.
They had
young babies, young children. And what was most important to them, and
I hope others would also reflect this in paying attention to how we
make working families lives better, they wanted predictability of shifts, wanted guaranteed hours so
they knew how much money they could
earn, but they also really wanted paid paternity leave. So to keep it
really brief, I just had a couple of questions for my Noble Friend the
Minister before she responds.
And the first is really whether we can
accept that the starting point for a
review would be to recognise that the UK compared to other countries
is so ungenerous in its paid paternity leave. We don't need a
huge review. In fact know that. That's our starting point. And if we
are to move into the 21st-century,
we also need to recognise that new dads from all sorts of backgrounds
really want time to bond with their babies and be involved more equally
in their care.
Secondly, whether this review will focus specifically
on paid paternity leave. And on the
simple premise that unless it is paid, there are a whole swathes of
new dads who simply cannot afford to
take it. And I've been really encouraged by the discussion around the House because I think there is a cross-party consensus that actually
we all want to see new dads having
that opportunity, but also we all know the benefits that will bring
for women, closing the gender pay gap, opportunities for children,
having a better life too.
19:38
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
I'd like to begin by thanking my
Noble Friend Baroness Penn for her very thoughtful amendments in this group. And also acknowledge the valuable contributions from all Noble Lords in this debate. In
particular the noble Lady Baroness Lister for introducing her amendment, but also to the noble
Lord Palmer for introducing his. And perhaps more importantly, reminding
the House of the coalition government's work in this area, the
Conservative led coalition government's work in this area. Although I note that he didn't heap
praise on the then Secretary of State for Work and Pensions my right honourable friend Iain Duncan Smith.
We fully recognise and support the
intention behind these proposals to strengthen support for families and particular to enhance the role of
paternity leave in allowing fathers to spend essential early time with their children. This is a laudable aim and one that clearly finds broad
sympathy across the House. However, while the objective is clear and commendable we must also consider the practical implications of how
such policies are implement it. Particularly in relation to the
impact on businesses. Many employers large and small continue to face significant challenges in the current economic climate as we've discussed at length this evening
already.
The introduction of new
requirements even when Ltd to large employers must be approached with care and I acknowledge my Noble
Friend Baroness Penn addressed many of those concerns directly in her speech. With regard to the reporting obligations set out in amendment 128
by my Noble Friend, I know that these would apply to businesses with
250 employees or more. And while this threshold does help to focus
the requirement on larger organisations, we should still be mindful of the potential administrative and financial burden such reporting could entail.
Even in
such reporting could entail. Even in
that category, the result is significant and may be as equipped equally to take on new reporting
functions. A pointy thing was also addressed by Noble Friends Lord Bailey and Lord Ashcombe. That said, transparency and data collection can play a valuable role in shaping
effective policy and if it can be clearly demonstrated that these measures will bring mutual benefits,
improving employee well-being and retention for example but without
imposing disproportionate costs on
employers, it certainly something we should pre-prepared to consider further.
Optimally we have to strike the right balance ensuring mean for support for families whilst also safeguarding the viability and fix
ability of the businesses that
ability of the businesses that employ them, and that is the lens through which we should view not
through which we should view not through which we should view not just this amendment but the wider bill.
19:41
Lord Leong (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
This has been a wide-ranging and exciting debate. I'm very grateful and thank all Noble Lords who have
contributed and I take this opportunity to congratulate the Noble Lords Lord Harlech on his
four-year-old son. Four month old
son. Sorry. I would like to begin by recognising the key role that
parental leave plays in supporting families, and wish it was available
when I became a much older father some 18 years ago. I'd like to also
thank the Noble Lord Lord Gascoigne for sharing his story about the difficult time he had with the birth
of his children.
This government
understands that the my arrival of a child whether it's through birth or adoption is the most transformative
time in a family's life. We also understand that the current parental leave system needs changing. So that it better supports working families.
We have committed to do this and are taking action in a number of
different ways. Through this bill the government is making paternity leave and parental leave day one
writes. Meaning that employees will be eligible to give notice of the
intent to take leave from the first day of employment.
Which I hope many
Noble Lords will welcome this
position. This brings leave in line with maternity and adoption leave,
**** Possible New Speaker ****
some find the system.... The nibble of the Minister said
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The nibble of the Minister said that this brings paternity leave in
that this brings paternity leave in line with maternity leave, but the maternity leave, the right to pay is also a day one right, 70 acknowledge
**** Possible New Speaker ****
also a day one right, 70 acknowledge that the bill does not create that alignment between maternity and paternity? Noble Ladies absolutely right. I
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Noble Ladies absolutely right. I just say the leave is the same with
just say the leave is the same with maternity leave, but not the pay. So
maternity leave, but not the pay. So this brings the centre line with maternity leave and adoption leave, thereby some find the system. We also remove the restriction preventing paternity leave and pay
preventing paternity leave and pay from being taken after shared parental leave and pay to further
parental leave and pay to further support working parents in assessing entitlements available to them.
Separate from the spill, planning work is under way for the parental
work is under way for the parental leave review, which will explore how well the current system supports working families and what
improvements could be made. Let me turn to amendments one to seven, 81,
139 and 139. This amendments seek to make changes to paternity leave and pay. Amendments 127 and 139 are both
in the name of noble Baroness Baroness Penn. Amendment 127,
statutory paid to six weeks and decrease the rate of pay to the
level of 90% or National Minimum
Wage or pay rather, although the drafting relates specifically to pay.
And in 1396 to make statutory paternity pay day one writes all
employees by removing the current continuity of working requirements.
The Noble Lord Lord Palmer has laid to similar amendments, 80 and 138.
Amendment 80 would also increase the minimum length of paternity leave from two to six weeks a required
regulation to introduce the ability to take paternity leave at any time
in at least the first year following
birth or adoption. Amendment 138 calls for extent on the existing flat rate of statutory parental payments to be increased from
doubling the rate from 184 23 £68.06
p.
I hope to reassure both the noble lady and the Noble Lord in part by
highlighting several reforms to paternity leave and pay which took effect in April last year. These
changes now allow eligible parents to take their leave and pay into nonconsecutive weeks, take their
leave and pay at any point in the first year after birth or adoption
of a child, rather than only within the first eight weeks as was previously the case. And to give
short notice for each period of
I hope Lord Palmer will agree that while well intended, amendment 80 is
not necessary if paternity leave is taken for the reasons I just
explained.
Moving to parental pay, amendment 139 makes statutory
paternity pay a day one right, and
current no pay entitlement is available from day one including maternity pay. Parental pay
**** Possible New Speaker ****
entitlement require employees... Did he just say there was no day
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Did he just say there was no day one right to parental pay including
for maternity?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
for maternity? I will read it again. Amendment 13 Nate makes statutory paternity
13 Nate makes statutory paternity pay a day one right. Currently no parental pay entitlement is available from day one including
**** Possible New Speaker ****
paternity pay. The allowance is available from day one and that is a same rate of pay as statutory paternity pay.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
pay as statutory paternity pay. She is right, paternity is
**** Possible New Speaker ****
She is right, paternity is available from day one. Parental pay entitlement makes an average earning
entitlement makes an average earning test calculating if newly employed parents have met this threshold will present a significant challenge to
present a significant challenge to employers who administer parental
employers who administer parental payments. Amendment one 127 and 139 presents a burden while finances are
under pressure. Increasing the level
of pay generally, any changes will need to take account of the economic situation, financial impact on
employers and the need of parents and in consultation with business
and stakeholder.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions is
required by law to undertake an annual review of benefits and state pension including statutory payment.
This is based on a review of trends in prices and earnings in the
preceding year, generally as the benefit of parental payment is in
line the CPI. Statutory Maternity Pay, statutory paternity pay, and
statutory adoption pay all increase by 1.7% in April 2025 in line with
September 2024 CPI figures.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Would the noble Lord acknowledge licking the payments to CPI, what is
licking the payments to CPI, what is happening is we have a bigger gap between statutory payment and salary as the minimum wage increases by a
as the minimum wage increases by a greater degree. The process the Minister laid out increases the
Minister laid out increases the problem of pain not coming anywhere close to replacing wages.
close to replacing wages.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
close to replacing wages. I thank her for that. That is the situation as it is now. Until it
situation as it is now. Until it changes, this is what it says. Depending on individual
circumstances, there is additional financial support available to parents, universal credit, child
parents, universal credit, child benefit and an assured maternity grant and is available alongside
grant and is available alongside statutory parental pay. Turning to the issue of Shared Parental Leave where farmers and partners --
where farmers and partners -- fathers and partners want a longer period of shared pay and Shared
Parental Leave and pay offers 50 weeks of leave and 37 weeks of pay
which can be created for parents to share of the maternity entitlement the mother does not intend to use.
They can take leave together for nearly 6 months or interspersed periods of leave with periods of
work. I turn to amendment 136 laid by Lord Palmer and supported by
Baroness Whitaker which calls for
individuals who are self-employed and within six months of the passage of the bill. It requires the
contractors to be defied in regulation to set up a clear
description of who would qualify for statutory adoption pay in this
statutory adoption pay in this
eligibility.
I would reiterate the gratitude to all adoptive parents who provide learning and stable homes to children who are unable to
live with the birth parent. Currently, parental leave and pay
entitlements are generally not available to the self-employed. This
focus on providing parental leave and paid to employees is rooted in understanding that employees have
less flexibility and control over working conditions compared to those
who are self-employed. There is the exception of maternity allowance which is available to the self-
employed mothers as an important health and safety provision, making
sure mothers take time away from working to recover from childbirth,
bond with the child and establish breastfeeding if they wish to do so.
For parents that do not qualify for
adoption pay, those who are self- employed or contractors, statutory
adoption guidance and advice for local authority to consider making payment similar to maternity
allowance. In November 24, the government published keeping children safe and helping families
strive as we allocated £49 million
to the adoption and special guardian support fund for the financial year. This enables local authorities and
adoptive agencies to offer a wide- ranging of tailored support
including physiotherapy, family
therapy and creative family therapy to adoptive parents.
We also look at adoptive family needs. I turn to
amendment 128 tabled by Baroness Penn which commits the government to
introduce in regulation required organisation who employ more than 250 people to publish information about parental leave and pay
policies. It is true parental leave and pay policies are not extras, but
essential policies that manage the professional and personal
responsibilities and play a huge role in addressing social and economic issues. The bill contains a
number of different issues with support of working families most
notably by putting in place legislation that makes it unlawful
to dismiss a pregnant woman, mother son maternity leave and mothers who come back to work after a six-month period except in specific
circumstances.
Making flexible working the default except where not
reasonably feasible and the requirement that large employers look at the action plan and we feel
we are striking the right balance between doing more to help working
families while ensuring this changes
it for employees to respond and adapt to and we do not believe this is the right time to legislate to require publication of parental
policy. I turn to amendment 76
tabled by Baroness Lister which
makes it the legal requirement for the Secretary of State to begin a review of paid parental leave within six months of Royal Assent and lay
it before Parliament within 18
months.
As I share the desire of noble Lords and Baronesses that made the amendment today, I want to see
changes in the parental leave system to better support families and I thank them for clear dedication to
improving the lives of parents and children. I recognise their concerns at the current system reinforces
updated gender roles. The responsibility for children remains for some families with the mother.
For many, this is through choice,
but it is also reflected on those
fathers and partners a short period of time to be with partner and child during the first year of life.
Shared parental leave is available
to qualifying fathers and partners who take the longer period but take
up remains low. Family life has changed dramatically since the 1970s when they passed employment
protection act that established the right to maternity for working mothers. We all agree the
improvement needs to be made and
this government has worked and made parental leave a day one right of
the bill. This removes the layer of complexity and makes the system more
accessible.
More needs to be done and I recognise the point raised by
Baroness Lister in amendment 76 that looks at the disparities in the current system. The plan to make
work pay and a manifesto commitment
committed to a review of parental leave system within the first year of the Labour government to ensure
it supports working families. Planning is underway and we hope to
**** Possible New Speaker ****
provide further details soon. Just to confirm, the government
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Just to confirm, the government will meet the manifesto commitment to start that review within the
to start that review within the first year and could the Minister give a timescale for not just when the review will start, but when it
**** Possible New Speaker ****
the review will start, but when it will be completed? I can give commitment that we
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I can give commitment that we will do this in the first year of
government. We are conducting and planning the review within the first year of Labour government. It would
be premature to make further
legislation in this space before the parental leave review has taken place. We will take the ideas from
the noble lady and take them into consideration and I look forward to updating the House on the review. Before I conclude, we understand the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
concerns... Before he exits the review, the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Before he exits the review, the review clearly reflects on a number
of issues in this bill and it makes an awful lot of sense if you are going to do this in the first year
which by the way is not very much
longer to be able to present us with the findings of that view and we can reflect them in what we bring back
**** Possible New Speaker ****
at report stage. I thank him for the intervention
and I will speak to officials and update noble Lords on this review.
update noble Lords on this review. We understand the concerns raised by micro and small businesses about
micro and small businesses about proposed day one rights to paternity leave and these employers work with lean teams and tight margins. Any
lean teams and tight margins. Any perceived increase will raise
questions about cost and continuity. Introducing day one right is about fairness and consistency and ensures
fairness and consistency and ensures all fathers regardless of tenure have the opportunity to support
**** Possible New Speaker ****
have the opportunity to support family at a critical time. I would like to interrupted again because he talked about the
because he talked about the importance of day one rights to paternity leave and giving fathers the right to take that leave, but as
Baroness O'Grady said, unless it is paid, swathes of dad will not be
paid, swathes of dad will not be able to afford it. -- Dads. Why will they not make it paid?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I thank her for this, but as I said in my previous paragraph, we
said in my previous paragraph, we are making day one rights the review
are making day one rights the review and we look at all of the issues
and we look at all of the issues brought forward and until we get the review done I cannot comment on anything at this stage. If we look
anything at this stage. If we look at businesses, this supports loyalty
at businesses, this supports loyalty and improves retention in a competitive hiring environment, demonstrating commitment to family friendly practices and attracts and
friendly practices and attracts and keeps skilled employees.
We
encourage the workforce planning across training and flexible staffing arrangements can mitigate
disruption during short absences and small employers have managed a similar situation around the holiday
similar situation around the holiday leave and illness stop this is not about adding burdens but building a
about adding burdens but building a workplace culture where they build value from the start. We are committed to working with small
businesses to ensure transition is smooth, supported and sustainable. I
reassure all noble Lords of government commitment to parental leave and respectfully ask the amendment is withdrawn.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Before he sits down, could I make an observation having listened to him reading from the brief, I wonder
him reading from the brief, I wonder how many who have read the brief
how many who have read the brief have been able to take paternity leave? It didn't sound like it. As
Baroness O'Grady said inherent invention she was very happy with
invention she was very happy with the support across the House for paternity leave being changed and
19:59
Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
changed quickly. Those of us in the House in front and to the side of the Minister were able to witness
the body language of backbenchers. As he looked at the body language, I
would suggest that going and sitting
down with them as a group between now and report stage might be helpful.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I thank him for that. I will take
**** Possible New Speaker ****
him up on that idea. I would like to thank everybody who contributed to this debate. I
who contributed to this debate. I particularly thank the fathers who
did and made it very much an issue for fathers and brought your
for fathers and brought your personal experience to it. That is very important and I value it. I
very important and I value it. I don't think Baroness Penn pushed on the question in the timeline. I do
the question in the timeline.
I do
the question in the timeline. I do not think we really got... It is starting to happen, it will start
starting to happen, it will start within the first year of a Labour government, but it remains a
government, but it remains a question about when it will finish and perhaps the Minister can take
and perhaps the Minister can take away that question and see if he
could bring back in a letter a clear idea of what the timeline will be and what it will look like before
report stage because I must say, if
the scenario that Baroness Penn laid
out is how it is going to be a would find it very disappointing and it would be very disappointing for many
people in this House who supported the raft of amendments so
And could I ask, suggest that a copy
of this debate is given to the Minister who is responsible for this review? Because I think it would help that minister, whoever it is,
see just how strongly all across
this House is the feeling that this needs looking at.
And looking at in particular from the perspective of
fathers. And the raw deal that they
get. As the noble Baroness Jones pointed out, this is a human rights
issue. And I too I mean I'm more used to talking about women's rights
than men's rights, but I hear this is one of those issues where the two come together, and one supports the
other, and it's so good to see it kind of acknowledged across the
House in that way. And I have to admit that I kind of, I mean my
noble friend the Minister said he hoped we would be reassured, but I have to admit I wasn't reassured,
I'm sorry, but I felt that there was a lot of talk about better support
for working families, of course.
But what I didn't really hear, and I
will read Hansard, is a kind of clear acknowledgement that this is
about a better deal for fathers, and
then from that flows a better deal for mothers, a better deal for children, a better deal for families
and also the economy and the Noble Lord sharp talked a bit about the
costs, but actually this could be
good for the economy, good for business. And I think perhaps that needs to be recognised more.
So I
won't say any more now, but I would ask that my suggestion that this
debate brought the attention of the Minister responsible for the review
is taken seriously. Thank you very much for nodding at the Frontbench
there in front of me. I can't speak
for the body language of all my
colleagues here on the backbenches, but I think it's been a very good debate. It's been worth having. We need to think about what we want to
do at report.
But perhaps, I'm sure it will come back in some form of report, and I would ask that the
officials perhaps give more thought to what is really motivating this
debate in what they then, is presented at report stage back to us
because I'm not sure really that
they got it. And this is too
important for it not to be God. So I will leave it at that. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment, and look forward to continuing the forward to continuing the conversation across the House.
20:04
Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (Liberal Democrat)
-
Copy Link
-
Is a geologic spacer the
amendment 70 6B withdrawn? By leave withdrawn. Amendment 77, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Not moved. I'm sorry.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I'm sorry. I distracted him.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you, I apologise.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Thank you, I apologise. I beg to move my amendments, and I'm speaking on amendment 77, 78,
I'm speaking on amendment 77, 78,
79, 135 and 144. In my name. So amendment 77 extends to foster carers, the leave given to carers,
carers, the leave given to carers, and I hope Noble Lords will see this as a necessary clarification, which
as a necessary clarification, which is all it is. Amendments 70 and 79
focus specifically on kinship carers and on requiring larger employers, those with over 250 staff to review
those with over 250 staff to review the support they offer to unpaid
the support they offer to unpaid carers.
Amendment 70 and 79 table to my name seek to address a
significant gap in employment rights for kinship carers by introducing a
new entitlement to kinship care leave. Amendment 78 proposes a provision to establish its right while amendment 79 links the
proposed entitlement to the broad
prohibitions of the bill. These amendments respond to a pressing social need. Over 130,000 children
across the UK are currently being
raised in kinship care arrangements, more than three times the number in
foster care.
Despite the critical role kinship carers play, often
stepping in during times of crisis to prevent children from entering
the care system, they receive far less support. Including in the workplace. Introducing a specific
entitlement to kinship care leave
would provide families with much needed time and space to adjust. To make necessary arrangements and to
ensure the child's well-being, which
Not only will this help Children and Families Act also help relieve pressure on the formal care system
costs are often excessive and emotional toll I'm sure is
significant.
In enabling kinship carers to remain in employment while fulfilling their caregiving
responsibilities, these amendments recognise the long-term social value
of keeping children within loving familiar family environments.
Amendment 70 and 79 introduce a
right to kinship care leave, and link it to broader employment
provisions. 130,000 children in the UK as I say are in kinship care,
more than three times the number in
foster care. Kinship carers often step into family crises, preventing children from entering state care,
yet they lack formal workplace protections.
These amendments would provide time for families to adjust
and support children's transition,
especially vital in the sudden or emergency situations. I maintain
that supporting kinship care is cost-effective and reduces reliance
on costly private care providers profiting from a family meltdown.
This is about reshaping workplace
culture to reflect the reality of modern families and assure children can remain in loving stable homes. These proposals align with broader
efforts to reform the care system and should be viewed as part of a
compassionate pragmatic approach to
child welfare.
Amendment 135 would
make carers leave a paid entitlement. I don't really need to add more to it than that. But
turning to amendment 144, I will speak to the amendment which would
require employers with more than 250 employees to consider what support they offer to unpaid carers within
their workforce when publishing their gender equality action plans.
This is a modest, very modest but important step towards recognising
the hidden pressures faced by most employees, most often women who
juggle paid work with unpaid caring responsibilities.
Unpaid carers are
the backbone of our social care system will stop where would we be
without them? Yet the contribution is routinely overlooked and
workplace policies, policies of the gender pay gap reporting. By including consideration of unpaid carers in gender equality action plans, we would acknowledge that
real-life factors contribute to disparities in career progression,
earnings and job security. Employers cannot meaningfully address gender
inequality without addressing the care but in that disproportionally fulsome women. This is a practical
and proportionate way to ensure that unpaid carers are no longer invisible and workplace policies.
Drafting my words to say today, this
late evening, I didn't realise how important kinship care was. One
talks about the mothers, the fathers, but very often it's the aunts, the uncles, the grandmothers,
people who are keen to the child --
kin who were not recognised in the system within which our system
**** Possible New Speaker ****
requires in the hope Noble Lords will support my amendments in my name, which I beg to move. Proposed after clause 17 insert the new clause on foster carer's
the new clause on foster carer's leave, the words of which are on pages 6 and seven of the marshalled
list. Amendment 77.
20:11
Lord Brennan of Canton (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
**** Possible New Speaker ****
list. Amendment 77. I beg to speak in relation to my amendment. It's a privilege to be
able to rise to move amendment 81, although the amendment stands in my name, I'm just a vessel in this
case. The credit for getting this amendment to this stage and in this shape should go to the members of the House of Commons women's and
equality committee, but in particular to the wonderful chair of that committee, my good friend Sarah
Owen MP. Her tireless and passionate advocacy in raising the issue of the
need for bereavement leave following pregnancy loss has successfully I
believe persuaded the government that action is necessary on this
particular matter.
And therefore I hope that the end of this group amendments are when my Noble Friend
the Mr replies, that they will be able to indicate support for
amendment 81. Or confirm at the very least that the government will bring forward the equivalent amendments at
report. Listening to and reading the
stories of women and their partners affected by pregnancy loss is very moving and to a very powerful
experience. But unlike other parts of the pregnancy journey, for
example IVF, there is often a cloud of secrecy around miscarriage.
Leading sometimes to a feeling that many women have that it is somehow their fault when pregnancy loss
occurs. Sarah herself, who has
spoken publicly with great courage, emotion and eloquence about her own experiences of pregnancy loss, has
referred to this feeling. And that feeling is compounded if having
miscarried and experienced the related physical and emotional
trauma, a woman is expected to apply for sick leave in order to deal with
the bereavement of pregnancy loss. Miscarriage is not a sickness.
It's
not a disease. It's not the equivalent of having a heavy cold or
any other infectious condition, but
having to take sick leave to deal with the heartbreak of miscarriage
trauma reinforces the idea that there is something wrong with the woman. That is the evidence that Sarah Owens committee received when
they did their enquiry into this matter. And it's also the case that
taking sick leave will often trigger an HR process from an employer,
which can enhance the feeling of insecurity of employment at a time
of great probability that the woman concerned.
Pregnancy loss bereavement should be treated the
same way as any other kind of
bereavement suffered by workers. And should therefore be a right in law
and enacted through this bill. In addition, this measure would help lift that veil of secrecy and guilt
around miscarriage and build more compassionate and human workplace
environments. Sarah Owen herself has spoken movingly about this when
describing and discussing her own experience of miscarriage. And she
said in the Commons, " I experienced pregnancy loss when I was an MP, and the kindness of colleagues in this
place got me through.
But at no point did any of them wrap their
arms around me and say, get well soon. They all said, I'm sorry for
your loss." I believe this amendment
can help to drain that well loneliness that can be felt when pregnancy losses left acknowledged.
In employment law. And in the workplace, particularly as it is
such a common occurrence. And of course partners need to be involved
too. The committee heard compelling testimony from women who had experienced miscarriage that
partners needed time to grieve their loss as well as to accompany partners to doctor's appointments
and so one command they had from a witness nearly bled to death on the way to hospital because her husband
Questions arise about cost to employers, but there are those
welcoming the change.
Smaller businesses wanting a level playing field in order to do the right
thing. The NHS, largest public sector employer of women has been
offering paid bereavement leave for
the last year and the Women and Equalities Committee say that cost
Equalities Committee say that cost
is an extra. -- Inexorable. I hope that they introduce the statutory entitlement to bereavement leave and
pregnancy loss before 24 weeks will stop and to reassert our values of
humanity, compassion and a desire for fairness and equality.
I know
that if it does so this will be a
moment of both sadness and joy for those who experienced miscarriage.
Sadness at the reminder of their loss and of what they had to go through without this provision. Joy
at knowing that in future pregnancy
at knowing that in future pregnancy
loss bereavement will be a right for leave so that women and partners will not have to experience the
added pain of not having a right to statutory leave at the time of the
greatest trauma.
I thank Sarah as a friend and comrades for entrusting
me with carrying this amendment forward on her behalf in the House. An exceptional person, a brilliant
MP and I'm glad to tell everyone
also a wonderful mother.
20:17
Baroness Grey-Thompson (Crossbench)
-
Copy Link
-
I speak to amendment 134 in my name. The aim of the amendment is simple but vital, seeking to provide
day one financial support for parents and children diagnosed with serious or life limiting illness,
creating statutory right for parents to take a period of paid leave to
care for their child. This includes those aged between 29 days and 16
years old receiving or have received start types of medical or palliative
care. The duration of the leave will be need to set out in regulation.
The amendment is tabled after a lot young boy named Hugh who lost his battle against cancer at just six
years old. His parents founded the charity It's Never You to support parents and children diagnosed with
a serious illness. They have been campaigning for three years to change the law and are in the
gallery tonight to listen to the debate. Throughout the treatment, Kerry and Frances saw immense
challenges faced by parents, not just emotional and physical strain, but also the severe financial
but also the severe financial
pressures that come with it.
Each year, 4000 families in the UK spend two months or more in hospital with their child undergoing treatment for
a life-threatening owners. These parents are being forced to make the impossible choice of earning a
living or being with their child. The current system leaves them
unsupported at eight most vulnerable moment in their lives. They sell their homes and clothes and go to
sites like GoFundMe to cover basic living costs that can go against
them in an application for universal credit. No parent is entitled to
financial support in the first 90 days of a child's illness.
After
that, they can apply for Disability Living Allowance which helps with the cost of caring for a sick child, but even then successful
applications can take up to 20 weeks
to be approved. 90% found that immediate financial support would
have made a critical difference to the hardship they faced following diagnosis and treatment. The
amendment builds on an important
progress made to the neonatal care leave and pay act and under this act parents and babies are admitted
within the first 28 days of life and require a hospital stay of seven continuous days or more are entitled
up to 12 weeks of statutory leave with pay eligible.
This is in
addition to existing maternity and paternity entitlement. Regarding these recent legislative changes,
the employment rights Minister said no parent should have to choose
between being with a vulnerable
newborn or returning to work. We are giving parents peace of mind to focus on their family. Considering
the statement, I would like to ask the Minister one question. The government recognises no parent
should have to make a choice between their child's health and employment, so why are they so reluctant to
provide financial support to vulnerable parents in an equally
devastating situation?
20:21
Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
I rise to speak on amendment seven. Amendment 77 and amendment 79. I congratulate Lord Palmer
bringing this forward. Both types of
carers serve a huge... Provide a huge service allowing children to
remain in loving family settings. Both types of carers are subject to wider consideration as children's
welfare and the Schools Bill, but there is a need to ensure the essential caring role is
acknowledged by making provision to have a right to leave as do
employees.
Foster carers at least
receive fares and allowances and are looking at the fostering network with the local authority being less
than the national allowance to foster carers and even those are out
of date and failed to meet the cost
of caring for a child. It is a sense of recognition allowing them to
enable to respond to situations and leave work as the same way birth
parents are able to do. There are over 150,000 children in kinship
care in England and yet there is a lack of understanding amongst the general public as to what kinship
care is and involves.
It is any situation a child has been raised in
the care of a friend or family member who is not their parent. May
be temporarily or long-term. Kinship care is need employment because they
step up in times of crisis to provide love and care for children who may otherwise be sent to the
care system and that situation has gone about because of tragedy or
trauma. They move in with the family
and it can be difficult and they need support, but often it is not planned to take on parenting
responsibility so they may need to
spend time attending children's services and be involved in court proceedings, find a nursery or make arrangements with the child's school
and GP.
Sometimes children's services place an expectation of
kinship carers where they temporarily stop working. If they think it is necessary to meet the
needs of the child. If they look at local authority support and a
financial sense if the situation is dependent on where the carer lives,
the type of arrangement and if the child or was previously in the care system. Kinship carers often become
dependent on Social Security which
is simply not right or fair. Surveys by the Family Rights Group charity
have found a charity have found 1/3 of working age kinship carers are not in paid employment because of
care responsibilities.
Six in 10
give up work or give up their hours
to care for a child. A doctor is entitled to 52 weeks of leave and 39
weeks of pay to settle a child into their home with 90% of average weekly earnings for the first six
weeks followed by a payment that stands at £184 a week and employers
can usually reclaim almost all of those costs. There is no equivalent
in payment for kinship carers and
there should be an amendment that introduces significant steps towards that.
Providing kinship care with
paid leave provides families of financial security and the need to
direct it to the Treasury for kinship carers remaining in employment, reduce and not to
mention wider social benefits in
well-being and GDP. Foster carers and kinship carers don't simply
provide a service to the children they look after but the government
by listening to the bans on children's services and saving on
public expenditure. I hope my noble friend recognises this given the assurance that she will bring
forward the government amendment to write a very obvious wrong in terms
write a very obvious wrong in terms of leave for foster carers, kinship carers and recognise a vital service that they provide.
that they provide.
20:26
The Lord Bishop of Sheffield (Bishops)
-
Copy Link
-
I thank Lord Palmer for tabling
an amendment 78 and 79 to which I have added my name in support. My
comments will be brief. I would like to add my voice to other noble Lords
in the chamber in appreciation of the debate we have heard today on the detail of the bill which I think in many ways indicates the interrelatedness of the issues
before us and what it is to live well together and enable the
flourishing of every person throughout their whole life.
I am
grateful to the Minister for her engagement with me on the matter of
kinship care over several months. I acknowledge the evolving view of how
best to ensure sustainable support for kinship carers. I appreciate the
Minister is open to further conversation and I look forward to
these. Part of the challenge is about finding an agreed workable definition of kinship care but there is more work to be done on this,
recognising amendment 79 sets out in some way to go about this task.
It
is about finding the right balance to achieve what is needed in
supporting kinship carers and not so open as to be unworkable in law and
unrealistic and affordability. -- In affordability. It is about what kinship care is, but I do not think this challenge is unresolvable. The
longer we take to get to this point, the more lives being impacted.
Kinship carers are overrepresented in health, education and the social
care sector so to withdraw from the labour market has an obvious impact
on wider society.
The north-eastern region I serve has the highest rates
of children in kinship care and the impact of this in real terms given multiple and systemic factors of
inequality is immense. Amendment 78
grants kinship care as the right to take statutory paid leave as Lord Palmer said akin to the title meant
-- entitlement of adoptive parents with protected time with children
entering care as they settle in to
the new arrangement. Further, it would enable caregivers to remain in employment while they adjust new responsibilities of continually
contributing to the economic growth of this government and what it
strives for.
In conclusion, I wish to thank the Minister for her willingness to meet with me and
engage with these amendments and urge her to consider the difference
these amendments would make to the lives of kinship carers, to those growing up in their loving care and
to wider society. to wider society.
20:29
Lord Young of Cookham (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
The Right Reverend Prelate makes a strong point of more support for kinship carers. I added my name to
135 and 144 to demonstrate cross- party support for a square deal for
party support for a square deal for
carers. Before adding a brief road to what has already been said about carers, a quick word about amendment 77 on foster care. My wife and I
were registered foster parents in the borough of Lambeth and we did short-term fostering. Typically when
a mother went into hospital and
somebody needed to look after her existing child or children.
It isn't
clear from the wording of amendment 77 how short-term foster parents might qualify for the amendment that
became law. If the definition of
amendment 78 that the fostering of a child had to last for a year, then they would qualify even though they
might have been doing short-term fostering for up to a year with a series of different children. Short-term fostering can last from
two days for up to two years. But
two days of short-term fostering may qualify for leave on its own, but
probably not.
I think we need some clarity on entitlement if this is to
go further. A quick word on amendment 135 and I declare an
interest as part of the All Party Parliamentary Group on young carers, young adult carers. What this
amendment would do is change the carers leave act which didn't
include remuneration as a matter that had to be considered in an
employment contract. I note that during the package of the carers leave act which was a Private
Members' Bill supported by the then government, but then in opposition and now the government challenged the previous government on why it
was not producing carers leave as a
paid entitlement, and in second reading on March third 2023 Baroness
Blake responding to the Labour frontbench said " we fully support
the bill although we believe carers
leave should be paid.
We have to ask why it has taken the government so
long to introduce legislation and necessitate its introduction in a
The Labour spokesman in the Commons
was even more forthcoming. On 21st
October, 2022, he said, again responding from Labour's front
bench, and I quote, we of course support the bill but it falls short of what paid -- unpaid carers really
need which is paid carers leave. We need to sort out a new deal for
working people.
The next Labour will
legislate to introduce is that to ensure that working people can respond to family emergencies as and when they arise without being left
out of pocket. Despite these
commitments, such a provision is completely absent from this bill. Perhaps the Minister can explain
why. Now, I understand all the reservations about putting it more
obligations on employers, even though some leading employers
already do this. They do paid Carer's Leave on its nonstatutory
basis. Perhaps the Minister could explain what the practice is in that
department.
I note in passing that
it would be a 1.8 billion gained through increased worker retention, reduced recruitment and so on, from this measure. A similar case to that
which we heard made in the previous debate on paternity leave. I welcome the government's determination to
support people back to work and to
aim at 8% -- at 80% of employment rate. That together with the recent
recognition that carers an ability to work is costing the economy makes
a strong case for this amendment.
I think the case for this amendment has been transformed by yesterday's
White Paper on immigration, with its restriction on recruitment from overseas for those working in social
care, particularly in care homes. We've already heard the concerns of those who run these homes that this
key source of recruitment will be
cut. There is no sign at all that social service departments will be
able to afford the higher cost of care if we are to recruit and train enough people locally. And the NHS
social care have a high number of working carers.
Many people leave
because of a lack of flexibility and
support if they are at the same time unpaid carers. Some may be entitled to Carer's Allowance if they qualify
under the rule and that makes no sense. I believe there's an opportunity here to retain existing
carers and recruit new ones if there
was more flexibility than there is at the moment. And finally, the government has committed to review the implementation of the Carer's
Leave Act 2023 and examine all the benefits of introducing paid Carer's
Leave.
Finally, I ask how is that review progressing? Will V take account of the changed situation since yesterday?
20:34
Baroness Pitkeathley (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
I rise in support of amendments
relating to unpaid carers. It's always a pleasure to follow the
noble Lord young -- Young. I declare
an interest. The amendments in question would in turn provide employees with a statutory right to
paid Carer's Leave and require employees from employers with over
250 employees -- require employers
with over 250 employees to pay
Carer's Leave. And please it received cross-party support. I have long campaigned for greater
long campaigned for greater
employment rights for those with unpaid care responsibilities.
This bill is very welcome and includes many provisions which have a
positive impact on working carers. Millions of people are now doing
this juggling act. Paid work with their unpaid caring responsibilities. This juggling act
is very difficult to maintain. Despite pockets of good practice, a lack of support and understanding
from many employers and too few rights in the workplace too often leaves carers with no choice but to
give up work or turn to part-time or
insecure work. Many people are estimated to quit work to provide
unpaid care every day with real and lasting consequences for them and their families.
That's not only bad
for them but add for their employers and bad for the economy. As recently as March, the government provided a
new estimate of the cost to the economy of carers being unable to
work which Lord Young quoted. It was
a staggering £350 billion -- £37
billion a year. A huge figure. We
have made good progress in recent years. Indeed, the entitlement to a week of unpaid Carer's Leave was secured through the Carer's Leave
Act in 2023 and it was a positive step in the right direction.
However, it was always intended to be just that, and we said this endlessly during the passage of the
bill, as some noble Lords will remember. It was a first step to be built on. I welcome that the
government is committed to review the implementation of the current right to unpaid Carer's Leave under
the Carer's Leave Act 2023. I consider whether there is a need for
paid Carer's Leave. However, I urge the government to go further and
faster to seize the opportunity that is there in front of it.
Indeed, it is clear to me that we should be
doing everything we can to ensure all carers who are able and wish to
work are able to do so. This is part
of what the government is trying to do in other areas. Encourage people back into the workforce. Carers UK
's evidence shows that 80% of carers say that additional Carer's Leave
would better help them to juggle work and unpaid care. And 50% of carers would find it easier to return to work after a period of
absence if they had access to paid Carer's Leave.
Almost half of those who've given up work or retired
early, and many people take early retirement specifically to take up caring responsibilities, said that
Carer's Leave would help them to stay in employment for longer had it
been available at the time. The
modelling that Carers UK has undertaken based on existing practice estimates it would cost the government between 5.5 million and
£32 million annually to introduce paid Carer's Leave, depending on the
rate of compensation employees receive. I know that a large figure
but it is in fact a small price to pay when compared with the huge contribution made to our economy by
carers.
Amendment 144 relating to equality action plans as necessary
due to the gendered nation -- nature
of caring. Women are still much more involved than men. The impact this
has on women's employment
specifically is huge. Anderson the government has been engaging with
carer friendly employers lately. --
I understand. These include TSB, Centrica. That support should not be the preserve of employees who
happen, just happen to work for
certain employers. I agree with the government that this bill is pro-
business and pro-worker.
These amendments are as well, and that's why I hope they will be supported by the government. the government.
20:40
Lord Hogan-Howe (Crossbench)
-
Copy Link
-
I would like to support Baroness
Grey-Thompson in her amendment 134. She is highlighted there is a glaring gap in our welfare system. It fails to provide adequate
immediate support for parents whose children are full seriously ill. Well the neonatal care act
recognised the need for a non-means tested leave and payment when a child is critically kill --
critically ill, that vanishes when
the child grows older. Parents whose children full seriously ill will be
navigating benefits not suited to their immediate requirements.
Currently, there are three options
available to parents seeking that support. The first is Universal Credit, which is means tested and is
not easily accessible. The second was mentioned by Baroness Grey- Thompson. Disability living allowance, which can only be applied
for three months after a diagnosis and then takes an additional 20 weeks, so approaching half a year to
weeks, so approaching half a year to
process. DLA is also required... The third option is 18 weeks of unpaid parental leave taken in blocks
throughout the calendar year.
In
these cases, families face an impossible choice. Financial
insecurity or being at their child
side during watches -- what is the most dramatic time of their life. This amendment addresses that gap,
providing a grant to the parents of
a chronically ill child. It will be approved quickly by the consultant
with renewal every month. According to data from the Treasury, there are
drugs data from the Treasury -- according to data from the Treasury,
the cost of caring of a chronically ill child estimated to be around
£750 per month.
According to estimates from a charity, if the
government were to provide during this Period, it would cost around £6
million. Significant amount but compared to many of the options that have been talked about today at the
lower end of national spending in terms of revenue. So this amendment
seeks to extend the principles of the neonatal care act two children
under the age of 16 in cases of serious illness. It builds on a clear precedent and introduces a
compassionate, practical solution,
and non-means tested support at the moment of crisis.
The impact on
employers will be minimal, affecting only a few thousand families a year. The benefit to those families would
be profound. This is precisely the kind of change where legislation can make a life changing difference at
very little cost. I would urge the government to consider this amendment which is in keeping with the spirit of this legislation.
20:43
Baroness Smith of Llanfaes (Plaid Cymru)
-
Copy Link
-
I rise to give my remarks in
relation to these amendments. I would like to add support to the noble Lords amendment on a
miscarriage lead. I'm glad to see that it has made its way in this
House. Firstly, I would like to speak to amendment 135 tabled by
Lord Palmer, which would establish
Carer's Leave as a paid entitlement. I will keep my remarks brief in this
regard but I speak from lived experience. I became an unpaid care at the age of 12.
I know means to
juggle education, work and caring responsibilities while having to
repeat my story to NHS staff,
college tutors, employers, and DWP. The obstacles faced are not unique. I know that a number of carers I
spoke to in the past and continue to do so continue to face these
obstacles, but what those experiences taught me is it led me to campaign on those issues. And proud to have influenced positive
policy changes in Wales that make
life a bit easier for young carers trying to stay in education.
Would be helpful to millions of young people with caring
responsibilities. People I was. The government has made it clear that getting people back into work as a priority, yet it also recognises
that unpaid carers inability to work costs the economy £37 billion a
year. Supporting carers into and to
stay in employment must be seen not only as a social priority but also an economic one. Introducing paid
Carer's Leave is not an expensive proposal. Modelling by Carers UK say
it would cost between £5,500,000.30 2 million a year.
This depends on the rate of compensation. Set against the cost of lost
productivity, height turnover and pressure on health and social systems, this is a modest and
worthwhile investment. It would directly benefit over 2 million
working carers. It would offer financial security, flexibility and
dignity. It could mean billions in savings from reduced staff turnover
savings from reduced staff turnover
It could empower carers to apply for
jobs they might otherwise feel shut out of, helping to broaden participation in the workforce and unlock that untapped potential.
Turning to amendment 144, also tabled by Lord Palmer, this would require employers with more than 250
employees to include within their gender equality action plans information on how they support
unpaid carers in their workforce. We must not stop at simply getting carers into work, we must also ensure they are supported to stay in
work. According to the census nearly one million working age unpaid carers have left employment because
they could not manage their caring responsibilities alongside paid
work.
Carers UK research also shows that as many of these individuals could have remained in employment if
only they had received more support
from their employer. That is why this amendment is not just sensible, it is necessary, requiring
transparency from large employers and carer support ensures accountability and progress, particularly when many unpaid carers are women and gender inequality
remains persistent in the workplace.
Both of these amendments speak to
revision of a more compassionate, inclusive and economically resilient
inclusive and economically resilient society, one that recognises and values unpaid carers and removes the barriers that they face.
Sorry out barriers that they face. Sorry out of the House to support both of these amendments.
20:47
Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
Amendment 135 to which I have added my name, it's a pleasure to
follow Baroness Smith especially
given she spoke from lived experience. Which I think it's really important. I recently
attended a policy breakfast about support for working parents and
support for working parents and
carers sponsored by the Centre for care Sheffield University. The unanimous view was that the leave has to be paid to make a real difference and that is the message received from carers themselves
gathered by Carers UK.
Many, especially those on low income, many of whom as we have heard are women,
of whom as we have heard are women,
simply can't afford to take unpaid leave. In the words of the Centre for care statutory right to unpaid carers leave in the context of a gender segregated labour market with
a substantial gender pay gap is likely to substantially exacerbate
inequality. The evidence they have collected shows we compare badly with many other countries where paid carers leave is now taken for
granted.
As I said at second reading, the case rests not simply on huge difference it would make to the lives, health and well-being of
carers, social and moral case, but also in the strong economic case. It would increase the likelihood of carers, we've heard of carers entering or remaining in the labour
force thereby supporting the government's aim to increase employment and promote economic
growth. As the government supported task Finnish group noted supporting carers to remain in paid work
represents an economic opportunity. TSB who provide their own carers support scheme are clear about the value provides for them as employers, and therefore is one of
many organisations calling for the bill to include provision for paid
carers leave.
It's not just big employers who are supportive, the CIPD consultation with its members
that support among SMEs was not much lower than that among large employers. The original new deal for
working people promised paid carers
leave, I got a different quote than Lord Young of Cookham here. At the
Commons third reading of the Private Members' bills which introduced
unpaid leave just a couple of years ago, the Frontbench spokesperson said the next Labour government will be committed to building on this
legislation and introducing a right to paid carers leave in our new deal
for working people.
But although he responded sympathetically on the issue at report stage in this bill,
in the Commons, the report, the Minister could only say that because
the right to unpaid leave was and
acted -- in acted recently we are reviewing this measure in considering whether further support is required, so I would echo the question of Lord Young, whether the
Minister could explain this shift in attitude. I completely understand
that the government needs to consider how paid leave should be
designed, not least because we need
to learn from other countries.
Is the consideration with regard to the need for further support given the body of existing evidence which
overwhelmingly demonstrates the case for it. Surely we should show our
commitment to unpaid carers by writing into the bill what is in effect a principle, and in principle
provision to cover the introduction of paid leave wants a review of the
details is completed. This would be wholly in line with the spirit of the bill, consistent with the government's emissions, not least its overriding pursuit of economic
growth, while demonstrating support for a group at considerable risk of poverty.
The government have demonstrated their commitment to
carers with action already taken on carer's allowance. Although I have
to say it's loss for thousands of carers as a result of the planned cuts points in the opposite
direction. All the more important
therefore to use this bill to demonstrate our commitment to carers
desperately trying to juggle responsibilities in the labour market and to their loved ones and our recognition of the importance of
care to our society. care to our society.
20:52
Baroness Coffey (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
I rise to command the various beaches that have been made particularly on care, but also on
the challenges that carers face and I am sure the debate will continue about the issue of remuneration for
carers leave. The reason I am contributing to this group of amendments is actually amendment 81
amendments is actually amendment 81
in the name of Lord Brennan. For me it seems quite an odd place for this
to have been grouped alongside the other issues recognising the very serious situation of identity loss.
-- Pregnancy loss. What I wasn't aware before the noble Lord spoke is
this was relating to an enquiry at the other end, I've only just started reading aspects of that report so I'm not fully informed as indeed he was and is in presenting
this, but I'm conscious that there are some issues in here that I am
concerned about. In terms of thinking through, there are only three other countries in the world
that currently include this, parts of this pregnancy loss in terms of
being formally considered for bereavement.
That's not a reason not to do it, but I think it's important
to do it, but I think it's important
to recognise that we would still be quite considerable outlier and I think it does need careful consideration, I'm not dismissing it in any way but I'm conscious that
the government responded in March
2025, sorry March 25, I'm slightly
disappointed we haven't yet seen an amendment tabled. I appreciate some of these things take a bit of time but I had hoped at Committee stage
we'd be at the point of being able to consider what the government was
going to table in this regard.
It is accurate to say as the government sets out its response to committee
but has already set out in guidance, number of these issues are already
covered in terms of pregnancy or
maternity related illness. I heard what Lord Brennan said about this
becoming a potential HR issue, it is
absolutely scrim in a three -- discriminatory for any such illness in any way of which miscarriage
clearly has one, and the other ectopic pregnancy would be covered
very straightforwardly by that.
I think I have a particular concern
about in his amendment to be a four
where it widely castor that of any
medical abortion. Already recognise that any abortion after 24 weeks is
automatically covered in bereavement leave. The same is true of
stillbirth which again in the UK is
considered to be the loss of pregnancy 24 weeks and above. The
two are not causal, they are not related there is a correlation in the timing but it's just so happens
that we have our current abortion limits with certain exceptions to 24
weeks.
So I am concerned that in effect proactive abortions taken
prior to up to 24 weeks would be covered in this potential amendment and I don't know if that is the
intention of the government in its response, as I have said to the House already I have another chance
yet to read the entire report from the Women and Equalities Committee.
I think also when I look at two BB
-- I have friends who have not always successfully had children
through IVF.
Thankfully many people do but many people recognise when they enter into that some of the challenges that they definitely will face. In trying to have a child by
IVF. As it stands on average success
rate for a woman below 38 is about
35% success rate for any particular embryo transfer loss. Once a woman
starts to go over the age of 40 that falls to, it's actually gone up from 2012 from eight% success rate to 10%
success rate in 2022. I think it's that sort of careful consideration
that needs to be thought about by the government and this House by your Lordships when we decide to
extend certain entitlements while recognising the heartbreak that can
happen at certain moments in people's life and these particularly sensitive moment, I'm conscious this is a sensitive issue to bring up at
this point in the bill but I do believe that I would like to understand this in more detail, I will take the time to do some more
will take the time to do some more research myself but I'm very keen to hear whether government is thinking because I appreciate it's given a certain kind of wording to the House
certain kind of wording to the House of Commons select on this point but quite where this is stretching and further details to the House would
be very welcome.
20:57
Lord Fox (Liberal Democrat)
-
Copy Link
-
I thank all speakers from your Lordships house what I think has
been an excellent debate and it's a genuine pleasure for me to participate hopefully quite briefly.
Lord Brennan gave a moving speech which was made more moving by the
knowledge that Sarah Owen is at the
bar today and I would like to thank them for their contribution, but
especially Sarah. Amendment 81 has our support not least as a catalyst to try to have the sort of debate
that we need to have and the careful consideration that Baroness Coffey
also alluded to but I hope it can start to move things forward.
We also support amendment 134 which was
so ably explained by Baroness Grey-
Thompson and supported by Lord Hogan-Howe, this again is an important issue that we would, we
want to have more conversations
about following this debate. My noble friend gave a very spirited
and strong advocacy for kinship care and that was supported across the
House from others, here is another area where there is absolutely clear
and present need for carers to be brought into the carers community
officially.
The point on fostering was also well made by my noble
friend and the point made by Lord Young about short-term fostering is
something that we should seek to
bring in to that as well. All of these amendments are in a sense
broadening the scope of carers and where we should be considering, all
of them I hope the Minister will be able to stand up and say, let's have a debate following this particular
group, let's talk with interested parties to see how some or all of
this can start to be moved forward.
I hope you will excuse me if I focus on carers unpaid carers leave. I had
the great honour of piloting Wendy Chamberlain's Private Members' bills
through your Lordships house -- and paid. As Lord Young pointed out in
one of his other guises the strong support of the Conservative
government. During that time I had a chance to meet a lot of carers and a
lot of employers of carers. Big
companies, the noble Lord mentioned Centrica, and much smaller companies.
All of whom set out the
advantages of having the proper strong relationship with their carers and the starting point that
we established through that Private Members' bills of unpaid carers
Members' bills of unpaid carers
But this is an opportunity to take it to where it should be and I'm afraid the noble Lord Young and
indeed Baroness Lister shut my Fox when I was going to come up with
quotes from the then opposition and the now government on the necessity
for this to become a paid leave.
Just briefly to explain why. Because
unpaid carers are across our society
everywhere. Many people at some point in their time but -- will
become unpaid carers, whether it is
for a manly member -- family member, partner or friend. It can take many
forms. Can be physical care, washing, dressing, feeding for people who can't do that for themselves, and it can be other
things like taking people to medical appointments and helping them to deal with the mechanics of a life.
There are huge pressures faced
currently by the NHS with record levels of demand. Unpaid carers have
never been more important in the daily lives of so many people in
this country. That's why it was important to get that first bill on
the stocks and that's why moving it to the next stage is really
important. We know from the 2021
census that over 20 million people in the UK are juggling work and unpaid care, and every year, 1.9
million people become unpaid carers.
Staying in work whilst providing unpaid care leave for a relative or
someone else can be incredibly challenging. We know that. But it means is that those pressures often
either force hundreds of thousands of people out of work or force them
to reduce their hours. So, that's
why we are proud to push amendment
135, and that is why I am delighted with the support we've had across Your Lordships' House. This is the
bill that can deliver a paid Carer's
Leave.
This is the bill that should deliver a paid Carer's Leave, and I
think Your Lordships' House has made it clear what it thinks the government should do in response to amendment 135.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I agree with the noble Lord Lord Fox, whose Fox has not been short.
Fox, whose Fox has not been short. This has been such an interesting,
This has been such an interesting, important, fascinating and deeply moving debate. And we owe a debt of
moving debate. And we owe a debt of gratitude to Lord Palmer for
gratitude to Lord Palmer for introducing in a very positive way the fact that unpaid carers are the
the fact that unpaid carers are the backbone of the hall care system.
backbone of the hall care system. And also for bringing us up to date with the reality of families faulty
with the reality of families faulty -- families. Have we not united in saying what we want now the
saying what we want now the government to do? It will be very interesting to hear what the
interesting to hear what the response is. I do hope the government will use every moment
between now and Report Stage to be more specific on how they wish to
respond to the issues that are being thrown up in this debate.
I would,
like Lord Palmer, just want to acknowledge the importance of
kinship carers. The grown parents,
kinship carers. The grown parents,
the ants, the ankles -- aunts, the
siblings. These individuals do so often take on significant responsibilities with little
preparation or so port and they always do so with compassion and
commitment. Kinship carers and their
contribution cannot be overstated. The Right Reverend Prelate, the
Bishop of Newcastle, has reminded us that they help prevent children from
entering care system.
They keep families together and they often do so at a great personal and financial
cost. I also have to acknowledge the contribution of my noble friend Lord
Young of Cookham, who had some wonderful specific quote to share
with the house. There is a very
important strategic alliance here,
particularly with Baroness Lister and others. It will be important to
respond positively to the points that they have made. I believe there
is a genuine case for us to explore
how we might better support those who take on these caring
responsibilities in such difficult circumstances.
Whilst I appreciate
that statutory leave may not be straightforward to implement, especially in the current economic
climate, there is a rule, as Lord
Fox suggested, for a wider conversation -- there is a room.
Therefore, there should be further consultation on this matter with
kinship carers themselves, with businesses, and with wider public, to understand the practicalities and
to gather the necessary evidence. If we can find a solution that is proportionate, workable and rooted
in the realities faced by both carers and employers, then I think, I believe it is something that
deserves our consideration.
As
Baroness Smith said there is room
here for a modest move forward. This would make a significant
contribution. We have, of course, to acknowledge the moving speech of the
noble Lord about bereavement leave,
and also how he spoke movingly of
his Commons colleague, Sarah Owen, the MP for Luton North, who has
blazed a trail of understanding some
areas that previously have not been properly understood, and we need to
respond positively to that.
I also
felt that Baroness Grey-Thompson talking about serious childhood
illness paid leave supported by Lord
illness paid leave supported by Lord Hogan, how that is another area that we do need to explore how better we
we do need to explore how better we can tackle these challenges. So in
can tackle these challenges. So in all these areas, I am confident we can work towards a sustainable strategy.
21:09
Lord Katz (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
This has been another wide-
ranging debate and I'm grateful for the contribution of all noble
others. It has been moving and profound. I would say there is
unanimity across the house. We should do as much as we can to support carers. We have to ask
ourselves how best we do that and we are indeed picking up the pattern
from the last government and we have passed the care leavers act. I want
to begin by joining in paying
tribute to the noble Lord on the issue of kinship care and to the
noble Baroness Grey Thompson for tabling her amendment.
Also, of
course, thank you to my noble friend
for tabling an amendment 81. I will try to do my best to get through
them at a decent pace. I will begin with kinship care and speak to Lord Palmer's amendment. I want to begin
by joining and emphasising how much I am the government appreciate
kinship carers who offer loving
homes to children who cannot live with their parents. I'm sure the whole house shares these sentiments. The government is committed to ensuring that all employers are
employed parents and carers -- that
all employed parents and carers are
appreciated.
We seek to create legal definition of kinship care to
establish eligibility thick kinship care the. As we heard from the
Bishop of Newcastle, from my noble friend Lord Watson and indeed Lord
Palmer himself, the amazing work done by kinship carers across the country supporting children at times
of great stress and need in their own households and in doing so relieving local authorities in the
wider system. We recognise the current support for families needs improvement. We have already begun to work to improve the system for kinship carers.
We are defining
kinship care through other legislation that is currently in this house. Later this year, we will begin trialling kinship allowance
and several local authorities. Just on that, I'm pleased to say that for the first time through the
government's... We will create a
definition of kinship care. And the
duty to promote educational achievement of children in kinship care. This will help ensure all local authorities interpret the
definition formally in relation to the duty for partnership information required, reducing ambiguity in
potential disparities in information
provided.
This will hopefully make life much easier at the sharp end of providing kinship care. This is a
vital part of our commitment to keeping families together and
supporting children to achieve and thrive. Am also very pleased to say the government has recently announced a £14 million package to
trial a new kinship allowance. This is the single biggest investment made by any government on kinship
care today. It is the first of its kind. This financial commitment
could transform the lives of children who can no longer live at
home.
It would enable children to be raised within their extended families and communities. As we heard from Lord Palmer, we must
minimise disruption in their formative years and ensure they have a normal life. In addition,
qualifying and applying kinship carers may already in a fit from
workplace rights. This includes a
day one right which grants... Unpaid parental leave which through this
bill we are making a day one right. Employers may not automatically have
the responsibility as a result of being a kinship care -- employees.
They may acquire parental
responsibility through an order. The government has also committed to a
review of the parental leave system to best support working families. This will be conducted separately
and work is already underway for a
silvery. Turning to amendment 170
174 amendment 77 on foster care. -- Turning to amendment 77 on foster
care. At times when we were facing significant changes, foster parents
often not only offer care and security but also emotional support
and consistency.
I want to pay tribute to all those who step forward to provide foster carer, not least Lord Young of Cookham who has
now changed his place but is very much with us in the chair. It is
important to acknowledge that
support already exist. They can
respond swiftly to a range of issues
such as caring for a foster child. If foster carers looking after a child with a long-term illness or disability, they are entitled to
Carer's Leave. This provides them with up to a week of unpaid leave in a 12 month period to manage
healthcare needs or attend appointments.
Those fostering with an intention of the ring may also be eligible for paid adoption leave
providing they meet the necessary criteria. All employees are entitled to flexible working arrangements
from day one of their employment. Given his existing provisions, it
doesn't seem right to add a new entitlement without a proper assessment of the need for it and
the impact it might have. I'm now going to turn to amendment 135
It would not be appropriate without
an assessment, will such an assessment be undertaken because I
think it's important.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Provide him with more details but I covered some of the issues around reviewing carers sleeping around later on in my speech. I thank him
**** Possible New Speaker ****
for his intervention. With all due respect this bill is
**** Possible New Speaker ****
With all due respect this bill is full of situations where the consultation for the implementation
consultation for the implementation of it is yet to be completed. One
of it is yet to be completed. One more consultation in primary legislation having adopted the principal would hardly stain the
principal would hardly stain the integrity of the spell so if the government wanted to could very well
take on kinship care and fill in the details later, that's what it's
**** Possible New Speaker ****
doing with the rest of the bill. I think possibly we may be talking slightly cross purposes but
talking slightly cross purposes but I would be very happy to write some
I would be very happy to write some Forward. I'm going to turn to paid carers leave and amendment 135 which would introduce a statutory entitlement unpaid carers to receive their usual wage while taking
Carer's Leave Bill. As drafted the responsibility for covering these costs would lie with the employer.
Lord Palmer and Lord Young of Cookham spoke powerfully on the rock
vital role played by unpaid carers during the second reading of the bill, and also tonight and I would
also like to pay tribute to Baroness Pitkeathley for the work she has done on fighting for carers and also
Baroness Smith hearing her direct
experience of caring as Baroness
Lister remarked it's the sort of lived experience that brings so much
to our houses consideration.
I like to emphasise that the government is committed to supporting those who
combine work with care. However there are not insignificant concerned with the amendment which
hasn't changed since it was for -- first brought forward and the other place. It doesn't give due consideration to the potential significant costs on places and
businesses and especially small businesses, and also this would create a situation of differential treatment between those taking leave
A family member or lot one under the
-- taking other forms of lead such as maternity or paternity leave.
Those taking Carer's Leave Bill be paid the normal wage what other
forms of leave are paid at the statutory rate means unpaid carers will be treated more favourably. So what the government doesn't support this amendment for these reasons I
want to assure noble Lord that His Majesty's Government is fully committed to ensuring unpaid carers able to combine work with their
caring responsibilities. We are reviewing carers leave which was introduced in April 2024 and gave employed carers a new right to time
off for work and we seem tonight as
Lord Fox noted, the depths of
feeling and concern that this has --
is done properly, we have as I said earlier had the but on of the carers leave passed over and we want to make sure we get this right hence
**** Possible New Speaker ****
the review we are undertaking. I'm sorry to enter up but I quite take my noble friend point but we
take my noble friend point but we were very clear we weren't saying how it should be paid, we were just asking for an acknowledgement of the principle that it should be paid and
principle that it should be paid and leaving it up to the government to
then review the details of how it should be, so it would be good to have at least an acknowledgement
have at least an acknowledgement that that perhaps is where the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
government is heading. I'm afraid I may disappoint my
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I'm afraid I may disappoint my noble friend slightly but I will say it's important that if we are going to review the things we review everything in the round and we don't pre-empt that review at the Dispatch
pre-empt that review at the Dispatch Box. We are considering whether further support is needed including potential options for paid leave, whilst being mindful on potential impact on businesses. I think it
impact on businesses. I think it would be worth to spend a little bit more time discussing the review has
more time discussing the review has several noble Lord have asked about it, the review is now underway and the officials and the Department for Business and Trade have orally
spoken to over 70 employers, third sector organisations and charities such as Carers UK in the course of undertaking the reports.
We've held events across the UK and Wales,
England and Scotland and this in engagement will continuously review progresses alongside both qualitative and quantitative research stop to answer a couple of
questions on the review, Baroness Coffey we will be considering
international examples and Lord Young of Cookham, we will be taking into account the immigration white paper which he so keenly observed
had just been published. The review will assess the impact of unpaid
carers leave introduced last year and considering what further support
is needed including potential options for paid leave while being mindful of any potential impact on
businesses.
To respond again to Baroness Lister we don't want to pre-empt the outcome, we of the
review we must allow it to run its course to ensure we make a considered evidence-based decision about what further support most
benefits unpaid carers. Now going to turn as time runs on to speak to amendment 134. I want to begin by
thanking Baroness Grey-Thompson and also Lord Hogan-Howe for bringing
attention to this issue. Particularly paying tribute to the work done by their charity, it's
never you, who have worked with Baroness Grey-Thompson on this amendment.
As she said I want to
join in her paying tribute to the people who have so bravely
campaigned tirelessly campaigned in memory of their son Hugh. I'm so
pleased they could join us in the
House to understand how seriously I think the whole house takes the issue they have raised and gives us again the opportunity to thank them
for their hard work on the issue. This amendment would extend provisions on neonatal care leave
paid to the parents of all children up to the age of 16 who are seriously elf an extended period of time entitling parents to pay time-
of-flight -- paid time off work at the statutory neonatal paying that A
full stop I acknowledge how difficult childhood illnesses can be for parents.
Equally I want to
recognise the vital role played by parents and other family members who provide care in such circumstances
will stop the importance of being able to spend time by the bedside of a loved one who is unwell cannot be
overstated. Responding directly to Baroness Grey-Thompson, government
is reviewing an existing as I've already mentioned entitlement to carers leave in considering whether
further changes may be helpful in supporting those who provide care to
loved ones alongside work. For instance employers are able to offer enhanced parental leave yonder the
four weeks in the year and I would can encourage employers to consider
doing this in unusual circumstances such as a child becoming seriously ill, it is important that parents
and disabled children are supported to return to remaining work if this
is what they choose to do.
Parents of seriously ill children may be protected under the Equality Act 20.
These may well be more appropriate avenues through which to consider
the issue. Whilst I'm afraid the government can't support the
amendment at this present time I understand that officials in the palm of the business and trade have
extended an invitation to the it's never you campaign in order to further discuss their proposals as part of their ongoing review of carers leave and I hope that noble
Lord 's take that as a promissory
note seriously we take the issue.
I
certainly hope that they will be able to contribute their valuable perspective to this ongoing piece of
work. Turning to amendment 144 on carers action plans this would inquire require employers to
consider caring is a matter related to gender equality within equality
to gender equality within equality
To clause 31 of the bell. I thank Lord Palmer for drawing attention to the disproportionate impact felt by women when it comes to providing unpaid carers, particularly women in
the workplace will stop this is undoubtedly an important issue for the provision is designed to emphasise gender equality issues but this risks inadvertently strengthening existing assumptions of who provides care within our
homes families and society.
The
clause can already accommodate consideration of the needs of carers we want to ensure that the variety
of actions can be taken to support employees in a range of circumstances for top so we fully expect action plans to consider
those with caring response butties. Action plans are a vital step in
supporting employers to make progress on closing the gender pay gap, and acknowledging the needs of those who provide unpaid carers who will no doubt play an important role
in this. Given that it's a significant contribution, contributing factor for the gap.
Finally I will speak to amendment 81
tabled by Lord Brennan of canton and I think I would like to say the whole house was moved with his words
on the issue and he called himself a
on the issue and he called himself a
If you excuse my poor plan for this time of night the amendment will extend the scope of bereavement to include pregnancy loss before 24 weeks, this would apply to those experiencing miscarriage, ectopic
pregnancy, in molar pregnancy, termination underlined successful IVF due to embryo transfer loss.
The loss of a baby at any stage is
incredibly sad and difficult. As Lord Brennan said is not a disease
or an illness, the government acknowledges this is a clear gap in
support for those who suffer pregnancy loss before 24 weeks and there is a need for time to grieve and recover. As many noble Lords
across the House have recognised, was helpfully highlighted so
helpfully highlighted by the work of the women and the qualities committee and it would be most
remiss of me right now not to join my noble friend Lord Brennan indeed
other noble Lords in paying tribute to the work of the committee but particularly the work of my own
friend and comrade Sarah Owen who is so movingly told of her own experience and the wider peace
around this very important and sensitive issue, we appreciate the way the committee has brought this
way the committee has brought this
issue forward.
We fully accept the principle of bereavement for pregnancy loss is raised in the amendment and we look forward to
further discussions with my noble friend and other noble Lords as the
bill continues in this House. As my noble friend Lord Brennan said, this
can help bring a more compassionate, more human face to the workplace as people deal with events that frankly
this current point in time carry far too much stigma, secrecy and basic
Whilst...
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Could the Minister confirm that
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Could the Minister confirm that the meaning of his words then that it is the intention of the government to bring forward amendments he is about to get you at
**** Possible New Speaker ****
report stage in this regard? I think it won't come as a
21:27
Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (Liberal Democrat)
-
Copy Link
-
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I think it won't come as a surprise to my noble friend that we can't accept the amendment in front of us today, we are very happy to
of us today, we are very happy to work with the noble Lord to ensure that your Lordships house can consider this most important issue
again at the report stage and so I therefore respectfully ask that this amendment and the other amendments
are withdrawn.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I feel humbled by this debate. It started off for me with Lord Watson
and the Right Reverend Prelate, and it went on on the same vein right
it went on on the same vein right across the House. The feeling that there was this bill which is called
there was this bill which is called the Employment Rights Bill, and to recognise that within employment rights there are carers who have
rights there are carers who have been ignored and need to be paid for
been ignored and need to be paid for what they are doing for people and for the system that they underwrite.
for the system that they underwrite. This bill, the government has really
This bill, the government has really not replied in a positive enough terms on this. We will come back to
terms on this. We will come back to this at report stage on specific amendments and by that time I hope
amendments and by that time I hope the government, the ministers will go back to their colleagues in the
go back to their colleagues in the other place and say across the House from all parts of this House there was the feeling that unpaid carers
need to be recognised in the
Employment Rights Bill and that kinship carers need to be recognised who have not been recognised before
and we hope the government has heard this and we look forward to a positive response by report stage.
I
**** Possible New Speaker ****
beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Is your Lordships pleasure that
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Is your Lordships pleasure that this amendment is withdrawn?
Amendment by leave withdrawn. Amendments 78 through 80 Lord Palmer not moved. Clause 18 amendment 81
not moved. Clause 18 amendment 81 Lord Brennan not moved. The question
Lord Brennan not moved. The question is that clause 18 stand part of the bill. As many are of that opinion say, "Aye", and of the contrary, "No". The "Contents" have it. We now
"No". The "Contents" have it. We now come to amendment 82 Lord Hogan- Howe.
21:30
Lord Hogan-Howe (Crossbench)
-
Copy Link
-
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Howe. I rise to speak to my amendment supported by Lord Paddick and Lord
supported by Lord Paddick and Lord Evans for which I'm grateful. This amendment seeks to extend the group of people in the Criminal Justice
System who have the right to time off to settle their duties to add
special consuls. In 2018 section 50
of the point act was amended to include lay observers in prisons, immigration visiting committees for
immigration centres, and short-term holding facilities.
This added to
the right of magistrates and JPs to take time off from their employment. Of course each of these volunteering
groups are essential to the functioning of effective functioning of the Criminal Justice System. Some
of the special constables who have existed since being created by the
special constables act 1831, but really today's version was crated by
the police act of 1964. Special constables are special by name and
special by nature in my view. They are unpaid volunteers who have all
the powers of a regular Constable and take all the risks that their colleagues take as well.
Of being
stabbed, assaulted, people abusing or spitting at them, they are paid
expenses but of course this covers their outgoings and they make no
profit. They deal with issues such as suicide, terrible road traffic collisions and many other things that officers regular officers have
that officers regular officers have
After being trained, they are usually expected to be on duty for
at least four hours a month. Most do very much more than that. Some work
every weekend.
During breaks in
employment, they work almost full time hours. Some keep this up for 20 years. They were designed to be contingency for were, backfilling
the police officers who would expected to join the armed forces. Given many of the internet -- uncertainties in the world at the
moment comments are realistic to expect we might call on them in the
For me, they have always been a
weight of a community and the police station holding their colleagues to
account and not captured by the
police at the time.
20% go on to
become full-time officers. It's not a bad way of testing whether they
would like to be a police officer. Presently, their numbers are
dropping quite dramatically. In
September 2023, they were 600
602,030 -- over 6000. That is just
one third of the figure it was 10 years ago. In this context, under
the grounds of equity, we need to enhance the volunteer offer to
encourage recruitment, retention and diversity. The government has said it wants to boost neighbourhood
it wants to boost neighbourhood
21:38
Lord Paddick (Non-affiliated)
-
Copy Link
-
21:42
Lord Fox (Liberal Democrat)
-
Copy Link
-
21:42
Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
21:44
Lord Katz (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
21:50
Lord Hogan-Howe (Crossbench)
-
Copy Link
-
21:58
Baroness Levitt (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
21:58
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
21:58
Lord Hogan-Howe (Crossbench)
-
Copy Link
-
21:58
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
21:58
Lord Hogan-Howe (Crossbench)
-
Copy Link
-
21:58
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
22:00
Lord Hogan-Howe (Crossbench)
-
Copy Link
-
22:00
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
22:02
Lord Bellingham (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
22:02
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
22:03
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (Liberal Democrat)
-
Copy Link
-
22:03
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
22:04
The Earl of Effingham (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
22:04
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
22:04
Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
22:05
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
22:05
Lord Sikka (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
22:05
Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
22:07
Oral questions: Encouraging scientists from around the world to do their research and work in the United Kingdom
-
Copy Link
22:07
Lord Vallance of Balham, Minister of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
22:07
Viscount Stansgate (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
22:08
Lord Vallance of Balham, Minister of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
22:08
Lord Clement-Jones (Liberal Democrat)
-
Copy Link
-
22:10
Lord Vallance of Balham, Minister of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
22:10
Lord Tyrie (Non-affiliated)
-
Copy Link
-
22:11
Lord Vallance of Balham, Minister of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
22:11
Lord Turnberg (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
22:12
Lord Vallance of Balham, Minister of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
House House of House of Lords House of Lords - House of Lords - 13 House of Lords - 13 May House of Lords - 13 May 2025.
22:12
Lord Mair (Crossbench)
-
Copy Link
-
22:14
Lord Vallance of Balham, Minister of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
22:14
Viscount Camrose (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
22:15
Lord Vallance of Balham, Minister of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
22:15
Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
22:16
Lord Vallance of Balham, Minister of State (Department for Science, Innovation and Technology) (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
22:17
Oral questions: Gaza Humanitarian Foundation
-
Copy Link
22:17
Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
22:17
Baroness Altmann (Non-affiliated)
-
Copy Link
-
22:19
Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
22:19
Lord Browne of Ladyton (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
22:21
Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
22:21
Lord Purvis of Tweed (Liberal Democrat)
-
Copy Link
-
22:22
Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
22:22
Baroness Deech (Crossbench)
-
Copy Link
-
22:23
Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
22:23
Baroness Morris of Bolton (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
22:24
Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
22:24
Baroness Blackstone (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
22:26
Baroness Smith of Basildon, Leader of the House of Lords and Lord Privy Seal (Labour)
-
Copy Link
-
22:26
Lord Callanan (Conservative)
-
Copy Link
-
This debate has concluded