John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)
1. For what reasons Work programme contractors are not permitted to publish their performance data.
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)
I thought that this afternoon we might have been extensively debating the benefits cap, but no Labour Members have been brave enough to raise the issue; I cannot think why.
The Department is following guidance issued by the national statistician in order to comply with the code of practice for official statistics and to protect the integrity and accuracy of data. However, we propose to allow providers to publish data that do not compromise the official statistics and will issue guidance to providers shortly.
John Woodcock
As the Minister knows, under the flexible new deal, providers were allowed to publish their data if they wanted to. If he is confident in his Work programme and knows that he has got the contracting incentives right, about which there is some doubt, why on earth is he refusing to let these providers publish their data if they want to?
Chris Grayling
It is precisely because I am keen to get information out there that we are looking at ways to ensure that that can happen, despite the rules about national statistics, which we have to obey very carefully. If the hon. Gentleman wants some statistics about employment programmes, let me share a set with him. The flexible new deal, to which he referred, cost the taxpayer £770 million and delivered 50,000 six-month job outcomes. He can do the maths on that—it amounts to approximately £14,000 per six-month job outcome. That is one failure of the welfare-to-work programmes we inherited, and that is why the welfare-to-work package that we have put together through the Work programme will be better value for the taxpayer and do a better job for the unemployed.
Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con)
Following that robust answer, does my right hon. Friend agree that when we are able to publish these data, they are likely to show the success of putting work out to contract when we see that organisations such as the Shaw Trust are much better at providing work for disabled people than the work done in-house by the Benefits Agency?
Chris Grayling
When I visit Work programme providers —I have now visited most of them—I certainly find a great deal of enthusiasm, a sense of purpose and successful progress. I hope that that will show through in the official statistics when the time arises. I am not in the business of burying good news, and I very much hope that we will be getting the good news about the Work programme out there as soon as we possibly can.
Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)
I welcome the U-turn on the publication of data that the Minister has just announced. The White Paper, “Open Public Services”, which was published only last summer, included the following commitment:
“Providers of public services from all sectors will need to publish information on performance”.
So why did he write into the Work programme contract a ban on the publication of performance data by those providers?
Chris Grayling
As we can all see, one of the challenges that Labour Members face at the moment is that they are all over the place on policy. On Friday, they were attacking me for allegedly misusing statistics; today they are asking why I am not going round the rules set out for us by the Office for National Statistics. They need to make up their minds about what they really stand for, because at the moment they have no idea.
Stephen Timms
The Minister has signally failed to answer the question. We know that he did not ask the UK Statistics Authority, whose rules he regularly quotes, before he imposed this absurd ban. I welcome the fact that he has finally announced a climbdown today, but he cannot blame anyone for asking him what he was trying to hide.
Chris Grayling
I have absolutely nothing to hide. I have to say to the right hon. Gentleman, as I have been saying to him for weeks, that I am not in the business of burying bad news. None the less, the statisticians expect us to make sure that we have robust and clear statistics before we publish them. As the Work programme has been going for only six months, and we have barely started to make payments for providers’ success in getting people into work, he is, I am afraid, not portraying the reality of the situation. I am glad that he is pleased that we are going to try to get the good news out there as quickly as possible, but we have to stick by the rules.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
Is not the key point that statistics must be first approved by the UK Statistics Authority? Will Ministers ensure that when statistics are available, the success of the benefits cap is also published, with the approval of the UK Statistics Authority?
Chris Grayling
I will absolutely do that because, as my hon. Friend knows, we are all about trying to help people out of poverty by getting them back into work. The benefits cap is one part of a portfolio of policies—including universal credit, the Work programme and the migration of people off incapacity benefit—that will deliver the kind of change to our welfare state that we so desperately need and was so desperately lacking in 13 years under Labour.
Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)
The Minister will be aware that it is expected that the number of claimants on employment and support allowance who are routed to the Work programme will be about 150,000 lower than was expected when the contracts were let. What assessment has he made of the impact on their viability?
Chris Grayling
Overall, as the hon. Lady will have seen from the figures that we published before Christmas about expected numbers in the Work programme, we are likely to see more people in the harder-to-help groups go into the programme than was previously expected. However, she will also have seen from the previous sets of statistics on ESA that we have a larger than expected support group, which is partly because of policy changes that we have made in areas such as cancer, addiction and mental health in which we are trying to provide better long-term protection for people who are genuinely vulnerable.
Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con)
2. What steps he took to consult disabled people and representative organisations on the development of the personal independence payment.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Maria Miller)
We have consulted disabled people and their representative organisations at all stages of the development of the personal independence payment. That included a formal consultation in December 2010 and our response which was published in April 2011; an informal consultation on the draft assessment criteria in May 2011; and a 15-week formal consultation on the revised assessment criteria, which started on 16 January this year.
Nadine Dorries
I thank the Minister for that answer. Agate house in my constituency, a Leonard Cheshire home in Ampthill, looks after some of the most severely disabled residents. Some are born disabled and many have degenerative illnesses that mean that they will need greater levels of care in future. They will never need less care than they do today or be less disabled, yet they all have to go through the ignominy and bureaucratic process of an assessment of their allowance once a year. Will the Minister examine that matter? It seems an incredible waste of money, a bureaucracy, a waste of civil servants’ time and an embarrassment to residents. Could we change that?
Maria Miller
I thank my hon. Friend for her question and say to her that we absolutely share the objective of ensuring that the people with the severest challenges in living independently in our society do not receive undue assessments. At the moment there is no in-built reassessment under disability living allowance. She put her question in the present tense—I am not sure whether she was referring to other things for which people are assessed. I reassure her that under PIP, we do not intend to have fixed annual reassessments. They will be made based on individuals’ personal circumstances.
Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)
In their report “Responsible Reform”, disabled people and carers analysed the responses to the Government’s consultation and raised many issues about the replacement of disability living allowance. Carers UK has also expressed deep concern about the impact on carers of cuts to disability benefits, yet today we learn that 5,000 carer households will be hit by the mean reduction of £87 a week as a result of the benefits cap. Will the Minister now publish an assessment of the impact on carers of all the Government’s cuts?
Maria Miller
To give the House total clarity I should say that the report that the hon. Lady references was highly selective. It examined only about 10% of the responses that we received on the DLA and PIP consultation.
I will answer the hon. Lady’s question about carers directly as she, like me, wants to ensure that carers get the support that they need. We have already made it clear that carers will be eligible for carer’s allowance as a result of the person for whom they are caring being in receipt of either level of PIP.
Jenny Willott (Cardiff Central) (LD)
Many disabled people are deeply unhappy about the performance of Atos Origin in administering the work capability assessment. As a result, they are scared about the introduction of the new PIP assessment. What discussions has the Minister had with disability organisations about who will carry out the new assessments, and what reassurance has she been able to give them that the mistakes made with the work capability assessment will not be repeated with PIP?
Maria Miller
My hon. Friend will be aware that the new personal independence payment assessment will be separate from the WCA, and that any contracts that are in place for Atos are not at all connected with the new assessment that we need for PIP. In fact, a formal competition document is going out today to start the commercial process. To reassure her about the involvement of disabled people, I say that we already have an implementation development group, which involves disabled people closely at every step of the way.
Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)
Just for balance, I should like to put on record my thanks to those who gave us the Spartacus report, which was a challenging document and took apart some of the Government’s points.
The Dilnot report recommended that universal disability benefits for people of all ages should continue as now. However, under the new PIP the Government are scrapping low-rate care. Some 500,000 people, and probably more, could face escalating unmet needs that will result in pressure on council care services. What specific discussions has the Minister, as lead for the Office for Disability Issues, had on the changes with her colleagues in the Department of Health and the Department for Communities and Local Government, and with the Scottish and Welsh Governments, and what action has she taken as a result of any conversations?
Maria Miller
The right hon. Lady will know that we have been having very close conversations with both the devolved authorities and the Department of Health, and she is right that we have to consider the changes that are happening in the round. She should also be mindful of the fact that the changes that we are making under the PIP will remove something that we inherited from the previous Government—£600 million a year going out in overpayments to people whose conditions have changed and who no longer need the same level of support.
Jessica Lee (Erewash) (Con)
3. What steps he has taken to reduce the level of health and safety regulation affecting business.
David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)
8. What steps he has taken to reduce the level of health and safety regulation affecting business.
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)
Britain has the best record in Europe for the prevention of death and serious injury in the workplace. We should be proud of that, and we will seek to retain it under the Government. We also have one of the worst records in Europe for unnecessary health and safety red tape. The Löfstedt report, which we published in November, recommends significant changes to our regulatory regime. We accepted the recommendations and, with other planned changes, we aim to reduce the total number of health and safety regulations by 50% by 2014.
Jessica Lee
My right hon. Friend referred to the Löfstedt review. Does he agree that, by returning to a common-sense approach to health and safety legislation, businesses such as mine in Erewash can concentrate on positively contributing to the local economy rather than fearing unnecessary prosecution?
Chris Grayling
Absolutely. That is very much our hope. We have already implemented one of the key recommendations of the Löfstedt review. On 1 January, we established the first challenge panel, which will allow businesses that believe that they are on the wrong end of a wrong decision as a result of a health and safety inspection to have a quick, easy and simple way of challenging and, if necessary, overturning it.
Mr Ellwood
Is it not the case that a culture of hesitancy, leading to paranoia, developed under the previous Government? That culture saw the term “health and safety” justify bizarre decision making, such as cutting down trees in school playgrounds in case children climbed them, or council office light bulbs being replaced only by those who had completed the “how to use a six-foot ladder” course. I hope that we will see some change from this Government on those issues.
Chris Grayling
We hope that a simpler regulatory structure will contribute to that. If we take the example of schools, we have already shortened the forms that need to be filled in for a school trip from more than 120 pages to eight. I encourage every Member of the House, including you, Mr Speaker, to challenge daft health and safety decisions when you come up against them in your constituency. There is almost certainly no basis for them in health and safety law.
David Rutley
The average annual cost of compliance with health and safety regulations is more than £4,000 for businesses of fewer than 50 employees. What steps are being taken to reduce further the burden of health and safety regulations on our start-ups?
Chris Grayling
That is particularly important. One of the Löfstedt review’s key recommendations was that we should exclude altogether from health and safety rules self-employed people who do not endanger the lives of others in the course of their activities. We have accepted that recommendation and will introduce it shortly.
Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)
As a member of the Löfstedt review, I can confirm that there is a recommendation that has the potential to reduce significantly the net number of regulations. Will the Minister confirm that the review actually recommends consolidating lots of statutory instruments? It would not remove health and safety regulations and, more importantly, it is not a short, quick fix, but a very long-term systematic study that is needed.
Chris Grayling
Let me pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for his work on that committee—his contribution was much appreciated and greatly valued. He is absolutely right, though I emphasise that there is a mix. Today, we have begun a consultation on scrapping the first seven regulations that we have identified as superfluous or duplicating other provisions. As I said at the start of my remarks, our approach is not about undermining health and safety, which protects people from death and serious injury in the workplace, but about creating a streamlined and simple system that businesses can understand quickly, easily and cost effectively.
Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)
The Minister will know that the Health and Safety Executive estimates that, each year, £22 billion is lost in the UK economy because of health and safety failures. Surely any reduction in health and safety regulation risks increasing that figure.
Chris Grayling
That does not follow because the Löfstedt review—and the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller)—identified many areas in which the rules and codes of conduct are too complicated and difficult for businesses to understand. We need to get back to a simple regime that is easy to understand and does what it is supposed to do: protect people from death and serious injury in the workplace.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
Given that the Löfstedt report does not say that our health and safety legislation is either excessive or wrong, will the Minister also say that and stop peddling the myths on health and safety legislation—the Löfstedt report says that they are myths—that some of his colleagues keep peddling?
Chris Grayling
The hon. Lady misunderstands the challenge we face. It is not Members of the House peddling myths; they are peddled all around the country, by local authority inspectors and middle managers in organisations who blame health and safety for things that have no basis in health and safety law. If we have a simplified regime that everyone can understand, it is much less likely that they can get away with doing that.
Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con)
4. What plans he has to support residential training colleges for disabled people.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Maria Miller)
DWP adult residential training provision is delivered in nine colleges. The Sayce review of specialist disability employment provision recommended that funding should focus on the individual rather than the institution. While the Government consider how to proceed following the recent public consultation, and to support the colleges through any period of transition, I have committed to provision continuing through to the end of the academic year ending summer 2013.
Stuart Andrew
I am grateful for that answer. Residential training colleges have built up a great deal of expertise in supporting disabled people back into work. How will my hon. Friend ensure that that expertise is preserved?
Maria Miller
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We need to ensure that that expertise is protected and retained. That is why I have given a personal commitment to the colleges for provision to continue through to summer 2013. Indeed, other parts of DWP are supporting colleges to broaden their approach, particularly those such as Enham in Hampshire and near my constituency, which delivers the Work programme in the Thames valley and on the Isle of Wight.
Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)
5. What assessment he has made of the information technology systems which will support universal credit.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
Universal credit is on track and on budget. The systems are not new or complex. After all, more than 60% of the total developed system is based on reusing existing IT. New developments will use tried and tested technology. The key difference between how this Government are doing things and how they were done before is that we have adopted commercial “agile” design principles to build the IT service for universal credit in four stages, each four months long.
Sarah Newton
I thank my right hon. Friend for his answer. Given the billions of pounds that were wasted by the previous Government on failed IT programmes, this matter is vital to me and my constituents. Will my right hon. Friend therefore explain to colleagues more about the testing regime before the new system is implemented?
Mr Duncan Smith
I should tell my hon. Friend that I am not complacent about delivery. Hon. Members on both sides of the House know that IT developments can have difficulties and can go wrong at key points, even when we are not expecting them to do so. I am trying to ensure that Ministers are directly involved at every turn. We get weekly updates and have fortnightly meetings with those in charge. I set up a programme board, which I chair, and a senior sponsorship group, which includes Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, the programme board and the Department for Work and Pensions. The major projects review group has regular reviews. “Agile” principles make it easier for us to pinpoint where there might be failures.
Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab)
This morning on the “Today” programme, the Secretary of State declared that he knew where and who the families were who would be most adversely affected by the introduction of universal credit. They will lose their homes, their children will lose their schools and they will have to find new medical treatments. Why does he need that system, and has he begun the process of informing those families about the cataclysm that he will bring down on their heads?
Mr Duncan Smith
With respect to the hon. Lady, she is mixing up policies. This question is about universal credit, but she is referring to the cap. I am sorry that no Opposition Member tabled a question on the cap—there might be a reason for that, but I do not quite know what it is.
What I said this morning was quite clear. I said that when it comes to the cap and smaller numbers of people, we have worked very hard over the last nine months or so to ensure that we know who will be eligible to fall within the cap. We know exactly all their details, which will make it easier for us to help them through the process. She should have a word with Opposition Front Benchers, and ask them why they did not ask a question about the cap.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
When the Secretary of State introduces the new IT system, will he consider introducing a skills database for all those who want a job, enabling employers to dial into the database and match the skills required with the person seeking a job, as against the other way round as at present?
Mr Duncan Smith
That is a very good idea and I am certainly ready to discuss it with my hon. Friend. If we can make something work, it would be brilliant.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
The information technology necessary for university credit will depend on the Revenue’s new PAYE real time system. Is the Minister confident that every employer will be using the system successfully by next October?
Mr Duncan Smith
We are working towards that, and so far it has been a success. Small companies of nine employees or fewer will have access to free software upgrades, so those that do not have a software payroll system will not incur any great charge. We are running trials that will start in April and that will join with the DWP in October. We are on target and we will continue to work towards that date. That is our expectation and ambition.
Priti Patel (Witham) (Con)
6. What steps he plans to take to reduce the cost of sickness benefit paid to UK citizens living abroad.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
We are bound by EU rules to pay sickness benefits abroad when people are eligible. I emphasise that they need to be eligible, and the same rules apply to the contributory element on employment and support allowance and incapacity benefit—there are no additional limits. We are determined to clamp down on people claiming when they are not eligible, and we are arguing that through at the moment, even in the Commission.
Priti Patel
In the light of the significant sums being paid in sickness benefits to UK citizens abroad will my right hon. Friend update the House on the legal dispute between the Government and the European Commission? Will he assure me that he will fight the Commission all the way on this matter?
Mr Duncan Smith
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), is in the Councils on this one. My hon. Friend refers to the Commission’s idea that the habitual residency test should be abolished. That is quite wrong and we disagree with it fundamentally, but we are not alone: a large number of European nations disagree with the Commission and we join them in saying that this is a step too far—a leap into an area that has always been preserved for national Governments and in which it has no right. We will fight this, and I believe that we will win.
Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
This is a very serious issue, but will the Government’s programme of closing the DWP’s overseas network in many countries around the world help or hinder efforts to ensure that benefits are paid only to those entitled to them?
Mr Duncan Smith
I believe that the hon. Lady’s question is not directly relevant to whether we are able to spot whether people are eligible, because anybody who claims will have to go through exactly the same checks as they would in the UK. That in itself will be a bit of a deterrent in their trying to claim something from a foreign doctor.
Chris Kelly (Dudley South) (Con)
9. What recent progress he has made on delivering universal credit.
Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)
19. What recent progress he has made on delivering universal credit.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
Design work is well under way. As I said earlier, we are continually testing with staff and claimants to ensure that it works and that we make progress. On 8 December the major projects review group panel report acknowledged that significant progress had been made over the past few months.
Chris Kelly
How many households are expected to receive a higher entitlement as a result of the universal credit, and how will it help hard-working families in constituencies such as mine?
Mr Duncan Smith
Universal credit will be a major sea change for my hon. Friend’s constituents, who will appreciate the fact that for the first time ever we will guarantee that work pays. Figures show that 2.8 million households will have higher entitlements under the universal credit.
Caroline Dinenage
Is there any flexibility in the way in which the universal credit will be paid? For example, could it be paid weekly rather than monthly, and could its housing component be paid directly to landlords in order to protect vulnerable families?
Mr Duncan Smith
I thank my hon. Friend for that question. She has raised an issue that has been raised by a number of people. The reason why we want to try to pay universal credit monthly is simply that when unemployed people go back to work, they sometimes have to adjust to their wages being paid monthly rather than bi-weekly, which often causes them problems. One of the reasons why they often fall out of work is that they cannot settle on that. We want to try and pay the universal credit monthly, so that it assists them. We will give every bit of assistance we can to all those who have difficulty to help them manage their budgets, which will include a new test on the way we pay housing benefit and the way it will be allocated through their bank accounts. I also give my hon. Friend this undertaking: we will have set-back proposals to make it absolutely certain that we can assist those who genuinely cannot do so to pay their relevant bills.
Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)
Before Christmas it was announced that, at least initially, local authorities would have no role in the universal credit assessment. Will the Secretary of State tell me what impact that will have on those working in housing benefit departments in local authorities? Will his Department be helping with redundancy costs if large numbers of people working in housing benefit departments lose their jobs?
Mr Duncan Smith
The reason is that we will be talking full time, all the time, to local authorities. We receive a huge amount of information from them, so we are not talking about stand-alone assessments being made; rather, the functioning of universal credit requires that, at its best, it should be done in one location. However, we will be in constant contact with local authorities about the needs in their areas, and we will be with them all the way through in the way this is applied.
Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)
May I press the Secretary of State a little further on the matter of paying housing benefit directly to landlords? A number of my constituents have found that when they are overdrawn or beyond their overdraft, the bank snatches the money, leaving them still unable to pay their rent, so that they get into worse and worse difficulties. Will he reconsider?
Mr Duncan Smith
I recognise that, and the point is that although the vast majority of those who receive local housing allowance make their payments on time, there is always a group that does not. The way to deal with that is to recognise that we need to help landlords by not allowing those kinds of people to get away with it—for example, by paying a little bit at the two-month point, which sets the clock back to zero. We can make adjustments that way, and we can also deal with those who have difficultly by assisting them and, where necessary, making direct payments. However, those payments should always be the exception, to try to help people manage their budgets.
Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)
10. What estimate he has made of the average cost to a small business of real-time reporting of PAYE information to enable calculation of universal credit entitlement.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
Real-time information—there was a question about this earlier—should not be an additional cost to business, and I do not believe it will be. Ultimately, it will help to reduce administration burdens for employers. RTI will also be good for Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, because it will help to eradicate some of the errors caused by HMRC waiting a year before adjusting what it has already paid and then trying to chase people for that money. The fraud and error savings that will arise from the RTI programme—which the DWP considers vital for the universal credit—should be around £700 million, which is an important feature.
Dame Anne Begg
I do not think that the businesses I speak to have any idea whatever that this is about to hit them ahead of the introduction of auto-enrolment, which they are more conscious of and worried about. However, that may be academic, because from what I am hearing, HMRC’s timetable for real-time information has slipped. It will not be ready to roll out RTI universally across the country on the date that the universal credit is introduced. What happens to universal credit if RTI is not in place on its launch date?
Mr Duncan Smith
From the word go, we have not needed the full system of real-time information to be ready for universal credit. We get our information from essentially two feeds, which we have already been working on with HMRC, long before any further timetables. The reality is that RTI will dovetail nicely with universal credit, but we do not need it for that, and we are not expecting it to be ready at the start of universal credit. We were never expecting that, and we have been working on that basis. However, RTI will come in—it is “on timetable”—and those involved will be working hard to produce it.
Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab)
11. What recent progress he has made on the introduction of the workfare scheme.
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)
We do not operate a workfare scheme. I think the hon. Gentleman might be referring to mandatory activity; in which case, I can confirm that we have schemes in place as part of people’s job search. They include mandatory work activity and the community action programme, which is being tested as part of supporting the very long-term unemployed.
Grahame M. Morris
May I press the Minister to give a fuller answer to the question that my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock) asked a little earlier? Profits at Poundland soared by 34% in 2011, with people on workfare forced to work for free in Poundland stores and being told at the beginning of their placement that there is no prospect of permanent employment, while they carry out the same duties as paid employees. Who is the real beneficiary of workfare: the taxpayer or the shareholder?
Chris Grayling
The hon. Gentleman is telling a lot of complete nonsense to the House. The reality is that Poundland is one of many major retailers taking part in our work experience scheme, which is providing young people who are out of work with their first opportunity to get into the workplace so that they can show a potential employer what they can do. More than 50% of young people who go through the scheme move quickly into employment afterwards, including, in some places, with Poundland.
Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)
There is a lot of noisy criticism from those on the left about asking people to work in return for benefits. Does the Minister think that they are right?
Chris Grayling
My hon. Friend is right; those people keep harking back to the future jobs fund. Let me give the House a simple comparison. The future jobs fund resulted in about half the participants getting into work, at a cost of between £5,000 and £6,000 per placement. The work experience scheme is resulting in more than half the participants coming off benefit and going into work at a cost of about £300 per placement. Which one do you think is better value for the taxpayer, Mr Speaker?
Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab)
12. What estimate he has made of the number of children who will be living in poverty in 2015.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Maria Miller)
The Government do not forecast in the way that the hon. Gentleman’s question suggests. Child poverty is dependent on a number of factors, and we know that the most sustainable way of reducing it is through parents going to work. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will take this opportunity, when asking his supplementary question, to show his support for the benefit cap, which will be one of the best ways of ensuring that work pays, for families throughout our country.
Mr Hamilton
The Minister will have a long wait. The independent Institute for Fiscal Studies has said that child poverty, as measured by the Child Poverty Act 2010, will rise by 400,000 by 2015, and that 200,000 children will be forced into absolute poverty. That means that the Government have no chance of meeting the targets set out in the Act, which both parties supported. Does the Minister believe that those forecasts are wrong? Also, will she make a commitment not to overturn amendments to the Welfare Reform Bill passed in another place when the Bill comes back here?
Maria Miller
As I have already said, the Government are not really into the forecasts that the hon. Gentleman is looking at, but we are firmly committed to eradicating child poverty. The IFS projections do not tell the whole story; they do not take into account fundamental things such as behaviour change, or our significant investment in early intervention, our education reform policies and our policies in other areas.
Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)
Bearing in mind the great importance given to the issue of child poverty across the House, will my hon. Friend tell us what steps she is taking to assess the amount of child benefit being paid to the non-resident children of EU workers in this country? What can be done to ensure that those benefits are minimised?
Maria Miller
We all want to ensure that the money available goes to the children who need it most, and I am sure that we will look carefully at my hon. Friends’s question.
Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)
Given that 92% of single parent households are run by women, will the Minister tell me what she is doing about the alarming rise in female unemployment, which is rising at a much higher rate than that of male unemployment?
Maria Miller
The hon. Lady will know that the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling) is doing a great deal to support women and men back into work in these very difficult times. I should like to commend him for the excellent work that he is doing further to expand the Work programme.
Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)
Families with children that are currently in receipt of disability living allowance are among those who are worried about what they read in the papers about the Government’s welfare reforms. Will the Minister take this opportunity to reassure them that they will not experience any reduction in the cash value of that benefit under the reforms?
Maria Miller
My hon. Friend is referring to the future of the personal independence payment. He will be aware of my firm commitment to ensuring that that payment is focused on helping those who need help the most. He will have seen from our recently published documentation that our initial work in that area shows that more of that money is going to people who really need it in order to live independent lives.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
13. What steps he is taking to protect the interests of people with small pension pots.
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Steve Webb)
The problems associated with small pension pots can include higher charges, losing track of a pension or facing barriers to moving the pension and getting a decent annuity. That is why we published a paper last month that sets out some radical options for some form of automated transfer system to make it easier for people to build up one large pension pot.
Rehman Chishti
Does the Minister have evidence on the number of small pension pots that will be created after automatic enrolment?
Steve Webb
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that question. There is a risk that without action, in an auto-enrolment world hundreds of thousands of new small pension pots will be created each year as people change jobs. That is why it is doubly important that we should have some mechanism to combine those pots so that they are a pension worth having.
Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab)
The UK is in the grip of a private pensions crisis, with 60% of private sector employees saving nothing for their retirement. In the light of that fact and in the light of the emergence of new competitors in the auto-enrolment market, will the Minister consider ending the statutory restrictions on the national employment savings trust scheme so as to better serve the auto-enrolment market?
Steve Webb
The hon. Gentleman raises an important issue. The Labour Government introduced the constraints on NEST—and for a good reason, as it ensured that NEST focused on its target market. The situation has moved on and competitive developments in the market have emerged that were not necessarily foreseen. We are reflecting on the role of those constraints and I look forward to discussing the issue further with the Select Committee on Wednesday.
Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)
14. What assessment he has made of the likely effect of the closure of the social fund on (a) homelessness, (b) hardship and (c) use of payday loans.
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Steve Webb)
The social fund is not closing as payments for maternity, heating and funeral expenses will continue. Some discretionary payments, particularly community care grants, will be replaced by targeted local provision at the same total level—so it is not a cut in the budget—and universal credit will provide a better service with payments on account supporting many people in need of short and longer-term credit.
Alex Cunningham
I am grateful for that update. For some people, the social fund is a crucial safety net, allowing them to avoid catastrophe. One of the major concerns about its abolition is that people will no longer be able to claim crisis loans to pay rent in advance when they move into private rented accommodation. What provision will there be to help formerly homeless people pay rent in advance when moving into independent accommodation?
Steve Webb
I know that the hon. Gentleman had written his question before he heard the answer, but the social fund is not being abolished. The new system under universal credit of payments on account will actually be more flexible, allowing people to draw down their universal credit ahead of time. That will be more efficient than the current rigid system of crisis loans.
Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)
What discussions has the Minister had with the Welsh and Scottish Governments about the transfer of some responsibilities to local authorities and with what result?
Steve Webb
We are localising to English local authorities and, as the hon. Gentleman says, to the Scottish Government and the Welsh Assembly. We take the view—we have had a positive response on this from the Welsh Assembly—that the ability to shape a system for Wales is welcomed. Whether the Welsh Assembly chooses to do that through Welsh local authorities or at a national level in Wales will be a matter for it.
Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)
15. If he will set a limit on the charges which pension fund managers may levy for the administration of pension funds.
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Steve Webb)
Initial evidence ahead of the roll-out of auto-enrolment later this year is that the creation of NEST, with its relatively low charges, and competition in the market are leading pension providers to offer products for auto-enrolment with lower than average charges. However, we believe that charging levels are important and have taken additional reserved powers under the Pensions Act 2011 to cap charges under auto-enrolment if that proves necessary.
Hugh Bayley
The report produced for the Government by Dr Christopher Sier shows that pensioners are losing out because of the excessive fees and charges levied by private pension fund managers. What action will the Government take to cap the amount that private fund managers can milk from the funds they manage on behalf of pensioners?
Steve Webb
I think the hon. Gentleman was a Minister in our Department under the previous Administration, and as he knows they chose not to cap charges but to give themselves powers to cap them if it proved necessary. At the moment, our judgment is that the early roll-out of auto-enrolment will deal with big firms who will give good deals and low charges and that we have more competition than was perhaps expected, with NEST coming in at around 0.5% and other providers at or below that point. We are encouraged by developments in the market but we are absolutely prepared to use the capping powers if it proves necessary.
Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)
16. What recent progress he has made on the youth contract.
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)
Since the launch of the youth contract, we have been engaging with employers, providers and stakeholders to give them an active role in shaping the delivery of the new offer. As a result, employers are now starting to sign up to support the delivery of the youth contract and we remain on track to implement it in April as planned. Let me pay tribute to all the employers that are currently and have committed in the future to offering places in our work experience programme and in sector-based work academies and to offering in other ways to support what we are trying to achieve.
Mr Jones
I thank the Minister for his response. I welcome the youth contract and I am sure it will help many of our young people into employment, but having spoken recently to a number of local business people, particularly from small businesses, I have concerns about the general level of awareness of the policy. Will my right hon. Friend assure me that he is doing all he can to raise awareness of this crucial policy with employers?
Chris Grayling
I can indeed. I met representatives of the major business representative groups a few weeks ago. Communicating with individual businesses is certainly a challenge but we aim to do everything we can to ensure that employers are taking up the wage subsidies available from April. It is worth noting that later this evening we will debate the Opposition’s plans to create 100,000 supported jobs, but that through the wage subsidies in the youth contract we are offering a similar opportunity to 170,000 young people.
Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con)
17. What progress he has made in assisting members of troubled families into employment through the use of payment-by-results programmes.
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)
We launched the programme before Christmas, funded by European social fund money. This is the second major foray that this Government have made into payment by results, and I am confident that the payment-by-results approach, combined with the support that is available to those families if they move into the Work programme, will provide a transformational level of support in the lives of some of our most challenged families.
Jack Lopresti
I thank my right hon. Friend for his answer. Given that past Governments have not had great success at helping certain families get back into work, why does he think his approach will be more successful?
Chris Grayling
The big difference is that we are adopting the payment-by-results approach. The organisations taking part in the programme can be paid only at certain points—first, when they agree an action plan with one of the individuals in a problem household; secondly when they deliver that action plan, which might mean the person completing a training course or something similar; and thirdly when that person gets into employment. The taxpayer does not pay the bill unless that happens, and that is a much better deal than ever happened under the previous Government.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
In Bristol, we had the pilots for family intervention projects that involved working with families who had a multitude of problems to tackle some of these issues. Does the Minister accept that this is not just about working through one Department such as his own? Other Departments such as the Department of Health and the Department for Education, as well as drugs funding, will need to be supported if we are to succeed in tackling these problems.
Chris Grayling
I absolutely do that. Two points regarding the contracting of this support are crucial to what the hon. Lady says. The first is that referrals come from local authorities so that they know they are taking people from their problem family register and are not duplicating effort. Secondly, the contracting was based very much around the effectiveness of the firms in the bidding process at showing they could form the kind of partnerships that she rightly says are so important.
Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
Today in the other place they will be debating an amendment on the benefit cap. I believe that that system will help to restore fairness by setting a cap for those on benefits of £26,000 a year after tax or £35,000 a year before tax. I cannot understand why those who have said they would support this and were in favour of it have voted against it as often as possible.
Mr Ellwood
I congratulate my right hon. Friend and his team on the work they are doing to modernise the benefit system following the mess that was left by the previous Government. On the benefit cap, does he agree that those who oppose it need to explain to those who are in work but who earn less than £35,000 a year why people on benefits should be better off than they are?
Mr Duncan Smith
My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. The reality is that almost everybody out there beyond the politicians and the game playing believe it is reasonable to say to people who are on benefits that if they are not working, they should not earn more than those who are working and paying their taxes. I am astonished at the Opposition, who do not seem able to get it. I understand from a recent poll that even their supporters are overwhelmingly in favour of the proposal.
Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab)
I hope that the Secretary of State will not mind if I sustain his attention on the benefit cap for a moment because there will be an important debate in the other place this afternoon on the cap. This is a policy we support because, like him, we believe that people should be better off in work than on benefits. However, I want him to be absolutely straight with the House about what the cap will and will not achieve. Will he tell the House how much the housing benefit bill is going to rise over this Parliament as a result of his failure to get people back to work?
Mr Duncan Smith
There are two things to say about that question from the Opposition. If the right hon. Gentleman is, as he says, in favour of the cap, why does his party keep voting against it? Today, in the other place, it has tabled what is officially a wrecking amendment on the cap. Labour Members cannot weasel their way out and say that they are in favour on the one hand and against on the other. On housing benefit, I remind him that under his party, housing benefit pretty nearly doubled in 10 years, and it was set to rise far more than it will under us.
Mr Byrne
Perhaps I can help the Secretary of State: the truth is that over the course of this Parliament—over four years—the housing benefit bill is set to rise by an extraordinary £4 billion. We do not want, on top of that, another bill for council tax payers—a bill to clean up the cost of homelessness. The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government has already warned us that 20,000 people will be made homeless as a result of the way in which the cap will be introduced, and this morning, the Department for Work and Pensions published an impact statement that puts up the number of families who will be affected by the cap by a third. It is almost as if the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions is making the policy up as he goes along. I hope that this afternoon he will accept Labour’s safeguards against a new risk of homelessness. If he dismisses that risk—if he wants to be so glib about it—why does he not accept the amendment this afternoon? If he does not, we will support the lord bishops’ amendment to safeguard against a new bill for council tax payers. That is the way that we will get this vote—
Mr Speaker
Order. The right hon. Gentleman has had his say, and we are most grateful to him.
Mr Duncan Smith
First, I do not accept the bishops’ amendment, because of course it would raise the cap on the level of income to roughly £50,000; it would be rather pointless having a cap set so high that nobody could ever hit it. Interestingly, I have just had an e-mail from a vicar, who wondered why the bishops fail to recognise that he is paid only £22,000 a year. He wonders why they are getting excited about £26,000 being a poverty-level figure. As regards housing benefit, let me remind the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) that we are saving £2 billion a year; housing benefit doubled under him.
Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)
T4. Will my right hon. Friend tell me what the Government are doing about migrants who live in the UK and claim benefits without working or paying tax? Will the Government consider recording the nationality of benefit claimants?
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)
I can confirm that we will record the nationality of benefit claimants when universal credit is introduced in 2013. I also confirm to my hon. Friend that where we have identified people who have a question mark over their benefits and immigration status, investigations are already under way. For 27% of the people whom we looked at in our data matching process, we are not yet able to make a match between benefit claimant status and immigration status. We will continue to do detailed work to make sure that there is not a hidden problem, left behind by the previous Government, relating to benefit tourism and inappropriate claims.
Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)
T2. The benefits bill this year will be some £15 billion higher than in the last year of the Labour Government, and that costs about £600 per family per year. What will the Government do to cut unemployment, which is what is pushing up the benefits bill so fast?
Chris Grayling
Of course, we will debate this again tonight, but as I keep saying to the House, we will sort out the problems in our public finances to deliver stability in our economy. We will deliver the best possible support to business through the various measures that we have introduced, including enterprise zones and changes to the tax system. Through the Work programme, our work experience scheme, and the youth contract, we will deliver the best possible support to get the unemployed back into the workplace.
Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con)
T9. My constituent, Dr Christine Davies, has contacted me with examples exposing the unfairness of Child Support Agency arrangements, which often fail to take into account the living costs of the non-resident parent. These are parents who are trying to engage with their children and do the right thing, but who are left to live on as little as £30 a week. What are Ministers doing to deal with this unfairness?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Maria Miller)
I thank my hon. Friend for his question, and I assure him that we are working very hard on reform of the maintenance system, which still fails to support around half of all children in separated families. He talked about cases in which both parents want to stay involved in their children’s upbringing; he and I share that objective, and I hope that he will continue to support the reforms that we are taking forward, which will provide far more family support to enable that to happen.
Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab)
T3. What advice can the Minister give the 3,259 people in St Helens who have been told to downsize their home, despite the fact that on existing turnover it will take five and a half years for them to do so while, in the meantime, losing their benefit? What advice would he give those constituents?
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Steve Webb)
I think that the hon. Gentleman is referring to social housing over-occupation. If people are in a particularly difficult situation, local authorities have been given an enhanced amount of discretionary housing payment to help them make that transition. It is vital that we tackle 1 million empty bedrooms in social housing.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
Going back to the issue of testing the disability living allowance, will the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Maria Miller) reassure the House that testing will be localised, humane and fair?
Maria Miller
I thank my hon. Friend for his question, and I pay tribute to him for all the work he does to make sure that things are right as we reform the benefits system. I can absolutely assure him that we will look at ensuring that the new face-to-face assessment is done in a fair manner, and we are going out to commercial contracting on that.
Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
T5. During the recent Westminster Hall debate on the future of Remploy, I was pleased to be able to tell the Minister that at the Wythenshawe print factory sales continue to increase while operating costs are falling. What action has she taken since then to procure additional print work for the factory from Government Departments and agencies, and when does she expect to be able to confirm that the factory will remain open?
Maria Miller
That was an important and useful debate to ensure that the work that we are doing in government is made clear. I have asked officials to look at the situation that he raised regarding Wythenshawe to make sure that the appropriate sales teams are in place. He asked when we are going to talk about our long-term decisions, and I can assure him that we will respond on that as soon as is practicable. We are in year four of a five-year plan, and it is important that we have those new plans in place.
Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con)
I was pleased that the Minister affirmed her commitment to residential training colleges, including the college of the Royal National Institute of Blind People in my constituency. She may be aware of recently published figures from the Select Committee on Work and Pensions showing that 1,000 people who have suffered sight loss are still looking for opportunities to be helped back into work. Does she agree that those colleges provide a valuable opportunity to help those people find employment?
Maria Miller
I pay tribute to the work that my hon. Friend does to support her local residential training college. I absolutely agree that colleges such as the one in her constituency have a valuable role to play, particularly to offer specialist advice and support. I hope that the commitment that I have given the colleges to ensure provision through to the summer of 2013 will help them to plan for a future in which we focus more on individuals than on institutions.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
T6. Recent reports have shown that more than £3 billion of pension charges are hidden from consumers. Will the Minister tell us what the Government plan to do to make it possible for pension fund trustees and consumers to compare charges between pension funds?
Steve Webb
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that charges are a crucial issue, so we are working with the National Association of Pension Funds and others who have undertaken an industry-led initiative to make charges information-transparent and consistent, and we are pleased to support them in that.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
May I assure the Secretary of State that a great many of my constituents object strongly to paying through their taxes for people to get more in benefits than they can get on a working wage, or to live in property far beyond anything that they could afford on their wage? It is important that we get the transition right, but the principles are sound.
Mr Duncan Smith
I absolutely agree with my right hon. Friend. It is remarkable that there is overwhelming support. Yes, he is right about making sure that we get the transition right, but the principle behind this and its application are vital. I simply cannot understand why the Opposition snigger and wriggle on this issue, failing to do what is right, and failing to do what is proper or to face up to their responsibilities.
Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab)
T7. The disability advocacy group Black Triangle has said that 11 disabled people have committed suicide in circumstances in which the coroner said that it was as a result of assessments as part of the work capability assessment. Is that figure right? Can the Minister advise whether he has looked into what legal liability the Government may have and, in particular, whether there is exposure under the corporate manslaughter legislation?
Chris Grayling
It is always a matter of regret when any person on benefits or indeed any person at all commits suicide. We always look carefully at reports that suggest any link between anything we do and people finding themselves in such a position. Let us be clear: the principle of trying to help back into work people who have been on benefits long-term is very important in supporting people who have mental health problems. If we do not reassess people, we will never be able to identify those who can benefit from that help.
Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con)
Average earnings in my constituency, Stourbridge, are £23,700 a year, on which there is a tax liability of some £5,000. Does my right hon. Friend agree that to oppose or to equivocate on the policy of a cap on benefits is an outrageous insult to all hard-working people in this country?
Mr Duncan Smith
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The cap is fair and popular, and it helps to put right the welfare system that we inherited, which is in a mess and is trapping people in dependency when we could free them. My hon. Friend is right that the Opposition position is ludicrous. The right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) has taken more different positions on the issue than a Jane Fonda work-out.
Mr Speaker
I call Mr Jim Cunningham, not necessarily on the subject of work-outs, but on whatever appeals to him.
Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)
May I ask the Minister whether employers can still take a pensions contributions holiday and, if so, how many?
Steve Webb
Where employers run defined benefits pension schemes, if they are in deficit and have a recovery plan agreed with the Pensions Regulator, there is no obligation on them to overfund above 100%, and there are Inland Revenue rules that affect surpluses, which are still in place.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that those well-intentioned but misguided individuals who oppose the introduction of a benefits cap are in serious danger of killing with kindness the very people they seek to help, by condemning them to a lifetime of benefits dependency and worklessness, which the benefits cap will seek to reverse?
Mr Duncan Smith
I fully understand those who on every principle and in every regard oppose the cap, but I cannot understand those who say they are in favour of it and then vote against it.