Grand Committee
Arrangement of Business
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (The Countess of Mar)
My Lords, if there is a Division in the Chamber this afternoon while we are sitting, which seems likely, the Committee will adjourn as soon as the Division Bells are rung, and resume after 10 minutes.
Welfare Reform Bill
(13 years ago)
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Lord Wigley
My Lords, I was truncated once again shortly before we finished on Monday. I wanted to add just a few words to the powerful speeches that were made on this amendment—none more powerful than that of the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, who apologises for being unable to be here because he is chairing another committee. The points that he made on entitlement to benefit were central. If one is going to get into a situation where capping prevents people getting what Parliament has passed as being their entitlement, there is something that is fundamentally wrong. I suspect that the Minister will have heard the points that have been made. A colleague whom I shall not name suggested that I give the Government hell; I am not going to do that because I am sure that the Government are in listening mode and will take on board the points that have been made. They are central to arguments about social security and I hope that the Minister will respond in those terms.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, we are talking still about benefit caps. We left the debate on Monday, I think, accepting that families hit the cap, as the noble Lord, Lord Best, explained so straightforwardly for us, through the interplay of both high rents and large families, a problem particularly in London and the south-east, with 70 per cent of those affected in social housing. Amendments tabled during our previous day’s debate sought, first, a more appropriate comparator by excluding child benefit in particular from benefit cap calculations—this was an argument by my noble friend Lady Lister—so that we could compare like with like and not apples with oranges. A second group of amendments suggested, wisely, a transitional period of grace before the cap was imposed. This is a theme to which I think we will all want to return, because we need a period of grace for quite a lot of the measures being introduced in order for them to settle down before the whole weight of penalties comes into play. We ran a similar amendment on housing benefit earlier. A third group of amendments sought to exclude subgroups from the caps—for example, those in supported housing, carers and kinship carers.
I want to focus on two aspects of all the debates that we have had so far, plus on the issue of carers, which was raised so effectively by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, and issues of housing benefit raised by the noble Lord, Lord Best. I support the thrust of all the amendments. There was one golden rule of public finance that I learnt from my time in the department: amendments abating or removing cuts always cost more than the cuts originally saved, even if the situation is not restored to the pre-existing status quo. That may be the case here again.
I wish to raise some wider questions on Amendment 99A tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins. She argued powerfully that just as PIP will remain outside of UC and the cap, so, equally, should carer’s benefit not be included in the cap, because they mirror each other, as they do in real life. The financial pressures, the fatigue and exhaustion, the using-up of savings and the social isolation apply just as much to many carers as they do to so many disabled people. We know that the Minister is sympathetic to carers, as is the whole House. So far, however, we do not yet know how many carers face a reduced earnings disregard. We do not know how many carers will lose carers allowance, because of the possible uneven mapping of the existing DLA passported benefit to the new PIP. We also do not know whether CA will come within the cap.
Given that the Bill is going through Committee stage here I feel that we are entitled to require the Minister to give us this information before we start Report stage and that we should not have to wait until we get to the clauses specifically about carers. If a single carer—it could be no carers, or it could be 100,000 carers—loses their entitlement to a passported benefit they will come into the framework of in-work conditionality which we have to deal with before we get to the carers clauses, at which point the Minister tells us he will be able to give us the information we want. We cannot do it that way round. It is not fair to the carers and it is not fair to Committee Members, who have been trying to do our best to get from the Minister—I am sure that he wants to be helpful on this—this information on the situation in which carers will find themselves. We must know everything about this situation before Report; otherwise some of us will be demanding that we go back into Committee, in the middle of Report stage, in order to take on board information that should have been available to inform earlier debates. It is not a proposal I would wish to argue. It is annoying for everybody concerned, but I feel quite strongly that it is not reasonable to ask us to proceed in this way.
The second area is housing benefit. Again, I strongly support the amendments moved so powerfully by the noble Lord, Lord Best. However, perhaps I may widen the point to remind the Minister of where we are so far and what we so far know, and then to ask him what advice he would give to a housing association such as mine—I declare an interest as chair of Broadland Housing Association. First, there is under-occupying. So far we have learnt that many of our poorest tenants would be required to move to smaller accommodation—except that we do not have it; it does not exist and it will not be built in the next few years. So the tenants will stay put and be fined on average about £20 a week. They have no savings, so they will run up arrears. However, we will be asked to avoid evicting them on grounds of decency as well as cost savings. Although such tenants would not be intentionally homeless through arrears generated by benefit cuts—as the Minister has helpfully agreed on the record—we would in any event have to rehouse them, probably in the house next door, if we evicted them. We will get substantial arrears from—although not pensioners—perhaps one-fifth of our tenants. I do not know.
We will perhaps also be faced, as we found from the discussion last week, with some tenants who are up against the housing benefit or UC cap. They too will face arrears, and again we will be expected as social landlords to avoid evicting them for what is not their fault. Again, arrears for us will mount.
We may also face cuts in housing benefit for those with supported housing in its various forms, although obviously this is a much smaller group. Again their arrears may mount, and again those will pass to the housing association.
Finally—an issue which we have not yet debated—we will certainly face substantial arrears in the move to direct payments to tenants rather than to the landlord.
Each of these four changes in housing benefit from DWP will plunge social housing landlords into mounting arrears. What is my housing association to do? We cannot raise rents to compensate for those arrears because we are at our fixed-target rent and DCLG does not allow us to go above it. We cannot get extra revenues from HCA or DCLG—indeed, they have cut our capital revenues by some 60 per cent. Housing associations could well find their accounts qualified, at which point the banks may threaten to reprice their capital loans because of infringement of a covenant, at which point our building programme falls.
I suppose that we could cut staff but the Tenant Services Authority within the HCA requires us to improve services. A 95 per cent satisfaction rate on any of the criteria it produces is required, which means that there must be staff on the ground, and quite rightly so. The driving-up of standards equals staff, which means that you cannot cut in that field either.
Put those four cuts together and they could send many housing associations into the red. Any one or two of these proposed benefit changes would be difficult to manage, but to face all four would be unbelievably difficult. I warn the Minister that he could be jeopardising the financial stability of a swathe of housing associations across the country. How then will the Prime Minister’s newly voiced concern for affordable housing be met? Given that 95 per cent of all housing stock that will exist in 10 years’ time has already been built, we cannot adjust the stock to meet what I believe is very wrong-headed, and in some places downright indecent, changes to HB. Some of us feel very strongly about this and it would seriously jeopardise our support for UC. DWP’s cuts in housing benefit will be offloaded to housing associations as arrears.
Goodness knows that local authorities are strapped for cash with 30 per cent cuts, but at least they have other financial resources. Housing associations do not. I repeat to the Minister that his savings will be our debt. DWP and DCLG have to get their act together. As I suggested at Second Reading, not entirely jocularly, if we could persuade DCLG to give up its batty scheme of localising council tax benefit with all the savings that accompany it and trade it for protecting the housing benefit, which would finance the homes we need and keep people in the homes that they want, UC would be welcomed widely across the country. I warn the Minister to take this issue very seriously. It will be very difficult for those in the field of social housing to cope when his cuts become our arrears with no capacity to meet them.
Baroness Meacher
I support Amendment 99A, which would exempt from the benefit cap, as others have mentioned, claimants with entitlement to carer’s allowance or additional allowances within universal credit for claimants with regular and substantial caring responsibilities. I am sure that this amendment was moved extremely ably by my noble friend Lady Hollins.
Perhaps I may make a couple of comments about the cap more generally. As Cross-Benchers, we do not normally refer to any political activities that we might have undertaken even in the distant past. Over a quarter of a century, however, I have spent rather a lot of time knocking on doors. One incredibly powerful recollection that I have is that the perception of the so-called scrounger was always the biggest single issue on the doorstep, even bigger than immigration. We cannot get away from the fact that low-income earners bitterly resent neighbours who they regard as being on benefits and, apparently, seeming to do rather better than they themselves. It is important that low-income earners feel that they are benefiting from going to work, which was the objective of the tax credit system. I strongly support the principle of that, albeit that there were a few problems with complexity.
As for the political motivation behind the benefits cap, I understand that people must have that incentive to work and that those in work should not resent those who are out of work. I have concerns, however, which I believe others have expressed, about the cap as a mechanism for achieving that sense of fairness. My understanding is that the design of the universal benefit should achieve this objective if only, as others have said, the council tax benefit were incorporated within it—at least except for a small number of very large families and some people living in very high cost areas.
I suggest to the Minister that the Government give some thought to finding a formulation in the legislation to achieve their fairness objective as between claimants and low-paid earners without resort to the notion of the cap. I know that the Secretary of State is extremely committed to this cap because it is a beautifully simple little message about being tough on claimants, if one is really honest about it. However, the Secretary of State should think carefully about whether this is acceptable within the traditions of democracy in this country. The aim, of course, would be to avoid relinquishing parliamentary scrutiny of the Executive. That is important because the levels and structure of benefits should not be open to change by the Executive without reference to Parliament. I understand that that is possible with the Bill as drafted. I know that the Minister will correct me if I am wrong but that is my understanding.
As regards this amendment, if the Government are determined to have the benefit—and I still hope that they are not—one group of claimants who clearly should be exempt are carers. About 200,000 children in the UK are being raised by grandparents, older siblings or other family members and friends. These carers step in to bring up a child or children as a result of very difficult family circumstances which often involve drug or alcohol misuse, abuse or neglect, death or serious illness, domestic violence or imprisonment. These carers are saving the taxpayer very large sums. These households are often large, simply because they have children of their own and then bring in others, perhaps five or more; so they will be disproportionately affected by the cap. I am sure that others have already mentioned this issue but I hope that the Minister will address it directly.
The idea of imposing a cap or some form of benefit control on large families is presumably to discourage parents from having more children than they can readily cope with, but that argument does not apply at all to carers who take on other people’s children. I do not know what the Minister feels about that point. Is that actually the main incentive behind the cap in relation to these households? Have I misunderstood? I would welcome his clarification. I know that he will want to support carers and hope that he is in a position to hold out some hope of concession on this issue. I hope that, at the very least, he will take this matter away for consideration.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
I know that I have already spoken once but I want to ask a question now rather than jump up while the Minister is speaking, because I do not think that we have covered it so far. It is about free school meals. I believe it has been made clear that free school meals as an in-kind benefit will not be taken into account as a benefit received for the cap. However, the Government are currently consulting through the Social Security Advisory Committee about how such passported benefits should be treated with the universal credit. Has the Social Security Advisory Committee been advised about what would happen if it were to recommend that free school meals should become part of universal credit cash payment? Would that bit be treated as separate so that it is not taken as part of the cap, as it would be if it were still paid in kind, or would it be treated as income for the cap? That could be quite an issue in determining whether noble Lords want to support payment in kind or in cash. If the Minister will cover that in his response, I shall be very grateful.
Lord Northbourne
My Lords, I shall not speak at any length because I was not able to be here for the previous day in Committee, but I am very concerned about the effect of the Government’s proposals on carers.
On paying rent to tenants rather than landlords, does the Minister know what the estimated fraud is at present? A few years ago I set down a Question in the House and it emerged that payment to landlords was causing fraud of about £2 billion a year, mainly because they put in applications for addresses that did not exist. If that is the case it slightly affects the statistics, and it must mean that paying to tenants would probably be more efficient.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, before we adjourned on Monday we had very significant contributions from noble Lords, as we have had today. We heard a powerful case from my noble friend Lady Lister against the principle of the cap, and, indeed, a brave speech by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, about why in his view these clauses are irredeemable, a point which was reinforced by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, a moment ago. Nevertheless, I believe that we must try to amend Clauses 93 and 94, because to leave them unconstrained would leave some of the most vulnerable in our country subject to major injustice.
This second group of amendments seeks to introduce exemptions from the cap, either for particular groups or for specific benefits. Amendment 99ZB, moved by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ripon and Leeds, and Amendment 99AD, to which we have added our names, exclude, in the first case, child benefit, and, in the second case, all elements paid with respect to children, from the calculation of total income from benefits for the purposes of the cap. As we have seen, at present the proposals have a disproportionate impact on children who can, of course, do nothing themselves to change their behaviour to escape from the impact of the cap. Moreover, as discussed, the cap is not only unfair but inconsistent in its treatment of these benefits which are included as income for those out of work but not in calculating the level of the cap. We support these amendments, and if the Minister is not able to do so, we would ask him exactly why these benefits are to be included in the calculation of the in-work but not the out-of-work income.
Amendments 99A and 99AAA, spoken to respectively by the noble Baronesses, Lady Hollins and Lady Tyler, create exemptions for, first, carers, and, secondly, family and friends as carers. They have had support from the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, and the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne. Like them, we are keen to understand the Government’s thinking on this. The Government’s impact assessment says that the impact on those affected will be that they need to choose between taking up work—of course, the cap does not apply to those entitled to working tax credit—reducing their non-rent expenditure or moving to cheaper accommodation or area. Can the Minister tell us which of those options he expects families who are caring to take up? I believe that he should especially answer the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, about why he considers that carers do not fit the description of working hard and playing their full part in society.
Amendments 99AB and 99D, spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Best, and to which we have added our names, provide an exemption from the cap for those in supported, sheltered or temporary accommodation. We know that those families may be particularly vulnerable and face real problems if forced to move due to a reduction in their housing benefit. As the noble Lord, Lord Best, said, families in temporary accommodation have not chosen to live in high-rent housing; they have been placed there due to there being no other options available. It seems particularly unfair to penalise them for a situation over which they have had little control. As Shelter, Crisis, Homeless Link and the National Housing Federation have stated, the caps for households in temporary accommodation create the prospect of a spiral of homelessness where households lose their income due to the overall benefit cap, but are unable to access accommodation under the main homelessness duty because they are still subject to benefit restrictions.
Amendment 99AA and 99C create exemptions for those who have recently started claiming benefits because of job losses. At present, the benefit cap will penalise those who have just lost jobs for decisions about their rent level or family size taken while employed. If it achieves its intended effect of forcing families to move to cheaper accommodation, the benefit cap is likely to increase hugely the disruption caused by job loss for such families and reduce the chances of them finding employment rather than giving them the level of security that the benefit system was designed to provide for people who have lost their job.
My noble friend Lady Drake spoke with some force, as did the noble Lord, Lord Best, about the traumatic situation facing people when they lose their jobs and at that very point confront what might be the further traumatic consequences of the benefit cap. As my noble friend declared, a modern welfare system is intended not only to incentivise people to work and to address benefit dependency but to support hard-working families with a clear work ethic in managing a flexible labour market. Perhaps the Minister will say whether he agrees.
We are told that much of the thrust or motivation behind the Bill is to encourage people into work, to keep them there and to ensure that work is rewarded. The group of claimants who would be covered by the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lady Donaghy are exactly the people who do not need any such incentivisation. They have indeed been working, possibly for decades and perhaps in hazardous situations since all have been injured at work. It is part of our contract with employees, which goes back to some of the earliest social legislation of workmen’s compensation Acts, that those hurt in the course of their work should be compensated, ideally by the employer or, failing that, by the state. This benefit is paid to all who qualify regardless of whether they are in work. It therefore cannot ever act as a disincentive to earning as the recipient continues to receive this money regardless of whether they have other earnings. It is compensation for perhaps being less able to work, for finding work more tiring or for not being able to return to one’s original occupation, but it does not diminish the financial advantages of working as it is paid out alongside any earnings. The point made by my noble friend Lady Donaghy was that to save perhaps £1 million we hurt those who have already been hurt at work. Is that fairness? I do not think so.
There remain some fundamental questions to be answered. I hope that the interlude since Monday will have given the Minister the opportunity to marshal his thoughts on some of those. We heard on Monday a reiteration of the Government’s position that households getting out-of-work benefits should not,
“receive a greater income from benefits than the average weekly net wage for working households”.
Can the Minister say whether this policy overrides any cost implications? Should the reductions in benefit expenditure from the cap be less than costs engendered, be it through homelessness, reductions in the number of people being able to care, the extra expense of supporting disrupted vulnerable families or the costs of bureaucracy in administering the system, would the policy still be for the cap to prevail? The Minister stated on Monday:
“The benefit cap provides a clear, simple message that there has to be a maximum level of financial support that claimants can expect the state to provide”.—[Official Report, 21/11/11; col. GC 345.]
Yet, we heard the welcome news that childcare costs were to be excluded. So what is the principle—if any part of this policy could be described as principle—which determines those items of support that can potentially be received in excess of the cap and those which cannot? What is the policy?
Perhaps the starkest example of an unfair element in the proposal is, as outlined by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ripon and Leeds, the treatment of child benefit. This is a non-means-tested benefit paid to all families whether in or out of work and has very high take-up rates. It is included in the total of benefits but not included in the comparative income level. My noble friend Lady Lister called this patently unjust, as it is. Where there is a demonstrable, illogical injustice of this nature which collides with the rhetoric and intent of the cap, on what basis is the argument for justice jettisoned in favour of the cap? Perhaps the Minister will explain that to us.
The Minister is an enthusiast for the universal credit. This is the approach which merges in and out of work support, will be easily understood, will mean that it always pays to be in work rather than out of work and will change the paradigm of people’s attitudes to work. I think that the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, touched on that point. If all this is right, what remaining role is there for the benefit cap? Before we reach universal credit, the cap is apparently to be administered by local authorities’ deductions from housing benefit. Can the Minister tell us what happens if the housing benefit component is insufficient to cover that, possibly because of support for mortgage interest being included in the calculation rather than a rental housing benefit amount? Will universal credit mean a greater range of support is apparently at risk when it is introduced? Can the Minister tell us about the practicalities of all this when the housing benefit and council tax benefit service has been outsourced by so many councils? My noble friend Lady Hollis raised some very practical issues about the impact of this on housing associations. What will it actually mean?
These are not theoretical questions but questions that will be faced, and faced in the near term. I do not believe that we have yet had the answer to the question posed by several noble Lords on Monday, that if most of the people to be affected by the cap are those for whom there is no full work conditionality, what is the change in behaviour that this policy is designed to achieve? We need to hear from the Minister on these points and on the whole range of other questions that were raised earlier.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud)
My Lords, these amendments seek to provide exemptions on the face of the Bill from the application of the benefit cap for a wide range of different groups. I would like to start by repeating what I said on Monday. We have always been clear that we will look at ways of easing the transition for families and providing assistance in hard cases. We are very aware of concerns about the impact of the cap in specific scenarios. We have always said that we will take account of the sort of issues raised in this debate when preparing the regulations next year. The clause has been drafted to give us powers to set a cap that achieves its purpose in the fairest way possible.
Let me take this early opportunity to assure the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, that I have considered the requirements of the Human Rights Act and the European Convention on Human Rights in respect of this policy. I am content that the way in which we will implement these clauses will meet those requirements.
Let me also clarify early on the point about behavioural change and the logic of applying the cap to people with reduced conditionality—a question raised by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie. Our policy aim is to achieve a range of positive effects through changing attitudes and expectations. Clearly, we intend in particular to improve work incentives and reinforce the expectation that people of working age should work. However, it is perfectly reasonable to encourage and help people towards employment even if they are not currently expected to work.
I said on Monday that our original estimate was that only about 10 per cent of the households that might be capped would be subject to full conditionality, through the JSA regime. However, it is wrong to say that the remainder will have no work-related requirements. A significant proportion will be people subject to work-focused interviews or work preparation and who will be building towards work. I said on Monday that I would provide the Committee with a breakdown of the caseload of households which might be capped. I also said that we are in the process of updating our figures. These indicate that a higher proportion, about a third, will be subject to full conditionality. I will provide the full set of figures as soon as they become available.
The key point is that if we are to tackle the negative effects of the current system then it makes no sense to exempt people from the cap simply because they are not currently subject to full work-related conditionality. That would not change attitudes and would be very likely to further entrench the problems of worklessness and dependency that we are trying to address. We have therefore been very careful in providing exemptions and deliberately kept the list short.
We have always said that we will exempt households that are entitled to working tax credit and that there will be an exemption for working households on universal credit. I have already explained that I am not yet in a position to provide details of this, but I can assure the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, that we are very conscious of the issue of cliff edges and the need to consider the impact of thresholds on households whose earnings fall.
We have always said that we will exempt war widows and widowers and that we will exempt households with someone in receipt of DLA or constant attendance allowance completely from the effects of the cap. I can confirm that this exemption will also extend to those in receipt of attendance allowance and PIP when it is introduced.
I am aware of representations already made that recipients of industrial injuries disablement benefit should be exempt from the cap in the same way as recipients of DLA. However, I do not think that these groups are in exactly the same position. DLA is paid to people to help with the extra costs arising from their disability. Other than through constant attendance allowance, industrial injuries disablement benefits do not reflect whether the recipient’s disability or illness necessarily brings extra financial costs.
We will be exempting people who are in receipt of constant attendance allowance because it serves the same purpose as DLA, but that does not apply to other industrial injuries payments.
I welcome the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, on the important issue of carers. The DLA exemption will mean that the cap does not affect a carer in a case where, as she said, the person being cared for is a partner or dependent child. Households where a member receives carer’s allowance but no members receive DLA or PIP will however not be exempt. In cases where the recipient of DLA is not deemed to be in the same household as the recipient of carer’s allowance both will be looked at separately and for benefit cap purposes their individual entitlements will be assessed independently. We have also said that we will look at ways to ease the transition for families and provide assistance in hard cases.
On the passport, as I said, I will seek to set out our intention for the passporting arrangements for PIP to carer’s allowance before the start of Report stage. I hope that that is adequate assurance for the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
No, my Lords. The Minister made that clear at the last sitting, but unless we know the actual numbers, as opposed to the structure, we will not know how many carers currently enjoying carer’s allowance, if I may use that word, will lose it and, as a result, become subject to full in-work conditionality—a clause in the Bill that we have to deal with before we get to carer’s benefits.
Lord Freud
By the time that I am able to set out these arrangements Committee Members will have a tight band in which to make a judgment. Although it will not be precise I hope that there will be a reasonable degree of precision to enable Members to reach key judgments.
As I confirmed on Monday, support for childcare—
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
The Minister seems to be moving off PIP. When we discussed PIP earlier I asked a question and the Minister said that it would be appropriate to discuss it as part of the benefit cap. I do not think that he has addressed the question. How many people does he estimate will be affected by the cap as a result of the PIP waiting period going up from three months to six months, and will he consider backdating entitlement for those who then become eligible for PIP?
Lord Freud
Yes, my Lords; that is an excellent question in this sense. I have made clear that we are looking at transitional arrangements, and I will look at precisely this issue of the timing with PIP in the light of those transitional arrangements as people move through. Clearly I have already committed to looking at the three months and the six months, so I have something of a three-handed chess operation to get through, but I hope to come back with the pieces in the right place—or, rather, although the pieces might be in position, they might not be in the right place as far as the noble Baroness is concerned. It will at least be a clear understanding of the position. I absolutely bear in mind the point that she has made.
The noble Baroness’s other question was on school meals. I am happy to commit that, however we restructure the provision of the passported benefit of school meals, it will remain outside the cap in the same way as childcare.
With regard to the kinship care amendment, we have already discussed and recognised in Committee the valuable role that kinship carers fulfil. I made a personal commitment, supported by the Secretary of State, to look at a range of issues affecting this group. I have already had a number of meetings with organisations that support kinship carers to help me better understand their priorities. These carers are able to receive support for the children in their care through the benefit system as, unlike approved foster carers, they have access to child benefit and child tax credit on the same basis as parents. Any payments they receive from the local authority will be disregarded. This parity of treatment with parents will be continued with the introduction of universal credit.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
That is very helpful and clear, but the point being made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, and others was that kinship carers very often take on children additional to those already in their family. Therefore, we are much more likely to see fairly large households with possibly five or six children and, as a result, those families could immediately be up against the benefit cap. How would the noble Lord suggest that is going to be addressed?
Lord Freud
My Lords, I accept the importance of this issue. There are a lot of angles to it, but I fully accept its importance and the argument that discouraging kinship carers could actually have a perverse effect, certainly in terms of cost.
The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, raised the issue of children at risk. We as a Government take our responsibilities to vulnerable children and vulnerable parents very seriously. It is clear that such families are likely to have multiple problems that may not be solved by benefit payments alone. The noble Baroness is concerned that the benefit cap will force such households to be constantly on the move, which will make it harder for local authorities and support services to keep track of them. We recognise that a more co-ordinated cross-government response is needed, and so last December the Prime Minister announced a new national campaign to try to turn around the lives of the most troubled families in England—there are around 120,000 of them—by the end of this Parliament. Local areas are being encouraged to develop a new approach to supporting these families. It involves redesigning services so that each of the most troubled families is supported by a single key worker who helps them turn their lives around and engage successfully with education and employment. I can assure noble Lords that my officials will work closely with other departments to support the Prime Minister’s plan for these vulnerable families and ensure that those who may be subject to the cap will be given all the help and information available.
Baroness Sherlock
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that important information about the 120,000 or so problem families—I think that is the term being used. The three categories in Amendment 99B, which was tabled in my name and that of the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, were children who were subject to a child protection plan, a child in need assessment or a common assessment framework team. Does he believe that those three categories are covered by the 120,000 problem families definition? I confess that this is not my specialist area, but the reason I ask is that I understand that those families, at whom that policy is targeted, are people who are presumed to be taking significant funds from a large range of public agencies. It is quite possible for a child to have a potential vulnerability that a social service department is looking at without the family necessarily being in that position. The questions I was raising were about vulnerable children, not necessarily the children the Minister is describing, but I may have misunderstood. Perhaps he can help me.
Lord Freud
My Lords, I am not quite sure, off the top of my head, how the mapping of these vulnerable families is worked. The sign just made to me by the noble Baroness, which normally is a sign for “Can I have the bill please?”, we can convert to mean, “Can I have a letter?” and I will be pleased to do that.
Baroness Sherlock
I would settle for a few million but a letter will do nicely.
Lord Freud
On the child benefit cap, Amendment 99ZB would require us to exclude child benefit when calculating a household’s total entitlement to welfare benefits for the purposes of applying the benefit cap. Amendment 99AD would go further and require that we exclude all-child related benefits. Both would result in household’s being able to receive benefits at a level above that which we have announced for the benefit cap. We believe that ultimately there has to be a limit to the overall amount of financial support that households in receipt of out-of-work benefits can expect to receive in welfare payments. Like other welfare benefits, benefits for children provided by the state are funded by taxpayers and should be taken into account along with other state benefits when applying the cap.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
My Lords, perhaps the Minister will say more about that. I do not know about other noble Lords but I am afraid that I do not find that enough. I understand the broader argument about the limits and, as the Minister knows, I disagree. There has been talk about a level playing field. Will he explain to the Committee how the Government justify the fact that child benefit is being taken into account on one side of the equation and not on the other when we know that all those families on median earnings are getting child benefit? That is what I do not understand. In the previous session, I think it was my noble friend Lady Hollis who referred to comparing apples and pears. We are not comparing like with like.
Lord Freud
My Lords, I acknowledge that we are not comparing like with like. We are looking at a sensible level at which to put the maximum benefit payment. The level that we are looking at is the equivalent of a household earning £35,000. I think that one can overelaborate the logic, which I will not attempt to do here.
Amendment 99AA, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Best, would introduce a grace period. I accept that there will be occasions when changes occur that are beyond a household’s control. We have said that we are looking at what transitional arrangements might be appropriate. The arguments that I was laying around the PIP are equally applicable here.
Lord Boswell of Aynho
Perhaps my noble friend will assist me. I have been worried a couple of times in this debate, both the other day and today. I would be grateful if he could clarify what seems to me to be a certain ambiguity in the use of the word “transition”—of course, not necessarily from his lips. This can mean one of two things: it can mean either a running-in arrangement to make it softer and more acceptable, and better understood before the policy is introduced, as it were, in macro; or it can mean the micro issue about how one deals with the individual case which is to be handled in a humane way. Does he agree that those are both important but distinctive characteristics? As we develop this argument perhaps into the next stage of the Bill, can we make sure that we keep them both in mind and address them separately?
Lord Freud
Yes, my Lords. Empson wrote a book called Seven Types of Ambiguity and my noble friend has cited two of them. I can clear up this particular dual ambiguity: the word “transition” here applies both to the running-in of the system and to the timing of how it will affect particular people when the system is fully run in.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
Some of the Minister’s common phrases are “soon” and “very soon” and we are beginning to decode them. Another one is about the possibility of discretionary housing allowance being extended to plug all possible gaps in the system, and we have had some discussion on that. It would be very helpful if he could circulate a paper to us on all the areas where he has assured us that there are going to be transitional arrangements so that we can see what they will look like.
Lord Freud
My Lords, I do not think that I am in a position to do that. I think that I will have to leave it to Hansard to pick up where I have applied the phrase “transitional arrangement”.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
Forgive me, the question was not how many times the noble Lord has used the phrase but what it means in practice. Is there a three-year run-in? What are we talking about here?
Lord Freud
All I am able to say at this moment is that there will be transitional arrangements and help for hard cases.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
The noble Lord again raises the issue of help in hard cases. Can he give us some indication of what he counts as hard cases, and of which, within the potential group of people who will be hit by the cap, he would say were soft cases?
Lord Freud
My Lords, I am being enticed by the velvet tones of the noble Lord. I am afraid that as we build the regulations to tackle the issue of hard cases, I can only say that we are looking at transitional arrangements. I am sorry but I cannot go any further at this stage.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
I think that we understand that. However, does the Minister recognise the dilemma with which the Committee is faced? We have a broad framework which the Minister says gives the opportunity of reducing the cap, but we have none of the detail which is absolutely crucial to understanding how it will work and who it will impact. Without providing that he is facing the Committee with an impossible dilemma. Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, is right and these clauses are irredeemable.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, it also means that the noble Lord will face a lot of amendments on Report, which he would not need to face, calling for breathing spaces or a transitional period of one year for people who suddenly lose their jobs or are suddenly exposed, at 27 or 28, to living in a single room, and so on. If he were able to give some clarity about what he proposes, he could wipe out possibly a dozen amendments.
Lord Freud
My Lords, I have been set a challenge and a reward. It would be lovely to collect on that, but I cannot make any further assurances.
I shall continue to speak to the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Best. Apart from the transitional arrangements that I have talked about, the underlying position is to ensure that people understand that they have to take responsibility for the decisions that they make in their lives in the light of what they can afford, and they cannot always look forward to the state stepping in to make good any financial shortfall.
I shall continue on to the more technical areas raised by the noble Lord, Lord Best, on temporary accommodation and supported and sheltered housing. The amendments provide an exemption for households to which local authorities owe a duty because they are homeless, or threatened with homelessness, and for those living in supported or sheltered accommodation. As I said on Monday, discretionary housing payments will not be included as part of the cap, but in wider terms it is too early to say how we shall treat those cases for housing cost purposes in 2013 and beyond. We are exploring options for the treatment of housing benefit for people living in temporary accommodation within universal credit and the overall benefit cap.
Noble Lords may be aware that we recently consulted on high-level proposals to change the method by which help with rent is calculated for those who live in certain supported housing in the social and voluntary sector. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, indicated, there is a series of issues here. We are working very closely with local authorities, housing associations and other government departments, including the devolved Administrations, on these very issues. Our considerations will, obviously, include possible interactions with the benefit cap.
Finally, Amendment 99C, in the name of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ripon and Leeds, would place a requirement on the face of the Bill for exemptions for a range of groups. These include groups that we will provide exemptions for through regulations, and others that we have already discussed during the course of our debates today. The amendment also includes an exemption for lone parents with a child under five. I have made it clear that the cap is intended to act as an incentive to work. I acknowledge that we currently do not require lone parents with children under seven to work, although we are seeking to reduce this to five, but that does not mean that we do not want to encourage them to find employment Indeed that is the very reason why we provide extra support through work-focused interviews.
Each of these amendments would undermine the fundamental principles underpinning the cap—that ultimately there has to be a limit to the amount of benefit that a household can receive and that work should always pay. I have listened carefully to the measured and detailed arguments put forward today and will take them into account when deciding on the final design of the cap. In the mean time, I urge the noble Lords and the right reverend Prelate not to press their amendments.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
If I may say so, several questions remain unanswered by the Minister. First, if it were established that the cost and consequences of the cap outweighed the benefits savings, would he still support and seek to introduce the cap?
Lord Freud
My Lords, we have done an estimate of the cost and benefits savings of the cap and we have looked clearly at the wider ramifications. The question is theoretical in practice. Clearly the message that we are trying to get over is a behavioural one much more than a cost-based one.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
If that is the case, and the Minister has made that point on several occasions, what does the benefit cap provide that is not catered for within the new world of universal credit? I thought that universal credit was all about merging in and out of work benefits, simplicity, making sure that work always pays and changing people's attitudes to work. That is all that the universal credit is about. How does the cap sit with that and what does it produce in terms of policy outcomes in addition to what the universal credit produces?
Lord Freud
My Lords, the main difference is the simple message behind the cap: in the end, there is a limit to how much the state is prepared to support someone. That is a clear and simple message that can be readily understood in a way that, however simple universal credit is, that message would not be.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
One accepts that it is a simple message, but I am trying to understand the policy outcomes that the Government expect to achieve from that, which are different and in addition to the policy outcomes that they expect from universal credit.
Lord Freud
My Lords, what we are looking at now is a three-tier persuasion towards behavioural change. We have a conditionality regime; we have a universal credit that removes the concern of many welfare recipients that if they go to work they will be worse off; and we have a specific limit on how much benefit people can actually earn. That acts as a very precise work incentive, which is a long-term work incentive.
Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay
Perhaps I could help the Minister. Surely the answer is that when the universal credit comes in fully it will deal with exactly the point that the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, is making. That is why it is such a good idea, but it will take a long time and cost a lot of money so this is an interim arrangement. Is that not the position?
Lord Freud
I welcome my noble friend’s support because he has expressed the argument much better than I possibly could.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
Is the Minister telling us that this is just an interim, transitional arrangement? I thought it was a permanent proposition.
Lord Freud
I return to the principle. As I understand it, this is a principle with which the Opposition agree: that there should be a limit on the amount of benefit a household can obtain. We have set that limit at the equivalent of £35,000 of earnings before tax and national insurance.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood—of wherever he is of—would comment, if he were here, but he spelt out a very powerful argument of principle about entitlement. I have not heard the noble Lord address that argument and, in his absence, I would be very grateful if he could do so.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
Basically, the noble Lord is constructing universal credit based on meeting several different objectives and many of us support this very strongly. However, he then artificially reduces the amount that some people will get under the very structure he has set out to meet the objectives he has outlined. It is that inconsistency of a deliberate cut to an entitlement, constructed by himself through universal credit, that we find unacceptable—so far it has not been explained to us—particularly when some of the consequences may cost us more.
Lord Freud
My Lords, the best piece of information I can provide the Committee on that question is that it is the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope. I think I am reduced to going back to the basic principle that there should be a limit and we have set that limit at the equivalent of £35,000. We are going round in circles slightly.
Lord Best
I thank the Minister for helpful and hopeful words about the transitional arrangements—the 26-week period of grace that was the subject of my amendment. On my other amendments relating to excluding sheltered and supported housing and temporary accommodation, I think the Minister was saying that that was still a work in progress, so my hopes are not dashed on that.
The overarching point that I have repeated a little here is that it is fair enough to have a limit, if the Government, for political or wider reasons, believe it to be necessary, but the limit affects people in very random ways. If you live in a nice three-bedroomed council house in Wales—as I described it earlier—costing £85 a week, you will have £415 left to spend on other things. If you live in a crummy flat in the East End of London at a rent of £325 a week, you will have an awful lot less to spend out of your £500 on all the other things you need. The cap hits people in a rather random way, which is why I have been arguing that we should take housing out of the equation and look at the other factors where the fairness principle might have greater applicability.
The underlying question I would leave with the Minister is: how are we going to manage the movement of people from a high-rent area of the country—they may be in privately rented property or have a number of children—to the cheaper areas of the country? We are looking at something like 200,000 people and 50,000 households. The Minister has suggested that some people will deploy savings, but savings will run out quite quickly if they are being dipped into at an average rate of £93, and for some people up to £150, per week. Such people do not have large amounts of savings and their savings will run out quite quickly. We know it is rather improbable that landlords will drop rents dramatically to cover these and other benefit caps.
In most cases we do not expect people to be going out to work—90 per cent of them are not required to go out to work—so although some might be coerced or incentivised to go out to work, the great majority of the 50,000 will still be in homes where they will not be able to stay because the gap between what they will receive to pay their rent and the rent itself is too wide. They will have to leave. Are we making contingency plans for this movement of a couple of hundred thousand people from the more expensive parts of the south-east and south-west to the inexpensive parts of the country? The move will be expensive.
I pick up on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, about the cost of this cap. If people stay put and wait until they are evicted, an eviction will cost the housing association or social landlord something like £9,000. It is not just the legal costs but the fact that when the people move out you have to redecorate the house and you have a period of vacancy. All those things add up. We reckon that an eviction costs about £9,000, but if people go voluntarily and we can move in at the right time and do things in a more sensible way, the cost is about £2,500. However, on average you are looking at the landlord paying several thousand pounds when people move out.
There is also the question of providing education. When people arrive in new areas, their children will need to attend new schools. Social services departments will have to be notified if children are under the care of social workers. All these things will cost an awful lot of money, let alone just the simple transportation of people’s belongings, the cost of their rail fares and the costs involved in searching for a new home. All this is incredibly expensive. If we are to move 200,000 people because we feel, for whatever reason, that it is not fair for them to continue to occupy homes in expensive areas, are we putting in place the contingency plans that the local authorities in particular will need to get their heads around?
Lord Freud
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Best, for that area of inquiry. We are looking to get early support for families in a number of ways well before the cap comes in. We are looking at a process whereby families on benefit face the same choices that low-income working families face. We are looking to achieve significant behavioural change through this measure. I assure the noble Lord that we are working hard with local authorities and other departments as well as with the devolved Administrations on the implementation of this measure.
Lord Wigley
I find it fairly disturbing that the Minister accepts that 200,000 people will be moving to places where low rents are charged—the noble Lord, Lord Best, referred to that—such as Wales. Is this a land clearance from central London to rural Wales?
Lord Freud
I wish to make it clear that I absolutely do not accept that figure. I have said that we are introducing a lot of measures in advance to make sure that that figure does not arise.
The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds
My Lords, will the Minister develop a little further the argument as regards Amendment 99C, which concerns the lone parent with a child under the age of five? It seems to me that there needs to be more discussion about the whole question of whether people in those circumstances —this would apply to kinship carers as well—are being encouraged to seek work or to move back into work. It is often argued that they should not be working and that the important thing is that they look after their child under the age of five, or, if they are kinship carers, that they give up work in order to take on that responsibility, which may have suddenly arisen. It seems to me that we ought, therefore, to take much more seriously the possibility that they ought to be exempted because we do not, as a society or a Government, want them to be working.
Lord Freud
My Lords, I hope I made clear my sympathy on the kinship carer point. I am looking at it in the round. On the lone parent point, I am afraid I am reduced to the underlying principle that there is a level of pay for people, which we have set at the equivalent of earnings of £35,000. Do not forget that, by definition, half the households in the country receive less than that amount because it is the median amount, and that is why we have fixed on that figure.
Lord Northbourne
I wonder whether the Minister can give some sort of comfort to those of us who feel, as the right reverend Prelate does, that raising children under five is a business very often for the mother or the father and that they are providing a much more important service to society and to the world, as well as to their child and themselves, if they concentrate on doing that instead of trying to do two things at once in order to keep up with the regulations in this proposed Bill?
Lord Freud
My Lords, I think I am reduced to making the mainstream point that the amount that such families can look to is the equivalent of what up to half the households in the country earn, which is £35,000.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Best, spelled out the challenges that some 200,000 people could face. The Minister may dispute the precise numbers, but he said that we are looking at a lot of measures to make sure that it is not 200,000 people. Can the Minister explain what types of measures are involved? What sort of measures are going to alleviate the challenges that the noble Lord, Lord Best, spelled out?
Lord Freud
Clearly one of the most important areas of support that we can supply is helping people find work. One of the areas of support here is clearly Jobcentre Plus, and we are exploring that area pretty actively.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
Are we seriously saying that, whether it is 90 per cent or two-thirds of the people affected by this who, under all the other rules and constructs that the Government have brought forward, are not required to get in to work, they are going to use this as a lever to force them in to work? Is that what they are saying?
Lord Freud
That is one of the areas of support. If we have about one-third of families who are subject to full conditionality and others subject to partial conditionality, by which we mean moving towards work over a period, a very substantial proportion of the group can be helped into the workplace.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
Is the Minister really saying that it would be supporting, say, a lone mother who has a baby to, in effect, require her to take a job as the only way she can avoid the benefit cap or to move to an area where she does not know people and has not got the support network she needs for her baby? I cannot believe that that is what the Minister is saying.
Lord Freud
There is a combination there. Those are the choices that half of the low income working families need to take, although they are not even low income families—this is pretty high income. I am not specifying any more, but we will look at hard cases. I do not want to be “loaves and fishes” about hard cases either, which I know the noble Baroness would want to accuse me of, but those are the two areas relevant to that case study.
Lord Wigley
We seem to be getting into a bigger hole on this. If the idea is that 200,000 people, or whatever the lower figure is—I accept that the Minister has a figure and we would be very glad to know what it is—will move to areas of low rent in order to get work there, does the Minister not realise that the reason the rents are low there is that people do not have work?
Lord Freud
My Lords, we are going round in circles. Noble Lords seem not to like this, although my understanding is that, as a principle, the Opposition approve of the benefit cap. There is a general level of support for it. I want to lay out the ground that working people with earnings of less than £35,000 already face these kinds of choices with regard to housing. Noble Lords seem to be arguing that people who are not working should be in a better position than those in work by protecting them from having to make this kind of choice. Bluntly, it was that kind of approach that has created or has been partially the cause of the high level of dependency that we have in this country.
I have, bluntly, said all that I can in this area. We can go round and round, but I am not in a position to offer very much more in the way of elaboration.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
I just want to pick up on my noble friend Lady Lister's point. We know that most lone parents come out of a relationship: very often out of a marriage. These are not people who are regarded by others on the estate as shirkers who need to be driven—that sort of mentality. We could have a situation where, before they separated, the total household earned income was perhaps over £30,000 and there was some housing benefit because it was a three-bedroom property in an inner city area at a fairly high cost. He then leaves and she is left with three small children under the age of five in their existing home, which is rented. As a result, they are facing the benefit cap. How on earth do we think that any of these proposals under universal credit or the benefit cap could or should alter that behaviour, the judgments that they have to make and the possibilities open to them? All it can do is turf them out and send them up to Middlesbrough, as far as I can see.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I suspect that we have taken this as far as we can today, but I am sure that we will return to it on Report—perhaps we should already be thinking of booking an extra couple of days for that. I have a technical question for the Minister. As I understand it, before we get to universal credit, the variety of benefits that people have will be looked at. That will go into the calculation on one side. We will compare that with the earnings comparator and the difference will be withdrawn by way of reduction of housing benefit. Is that right? So that will be administered by local authorities.
What if people are in receipt of mortgage interest support or the housing benefit element is not necessarily sufficient to cover the shortfall? What happens with all the local authorities that have outsourced their housing benefit and council tax arrangements? There are a lot of them. Have they been engaged? Presumably, there are extracontractual costs because they will be required to do things in excess of current entitlements.
On universal credit, is it likely that the withdrawal will be in respect of only the housing component of the credit or will the broader range of support that is in universal credit be subject to the clawback?
Lord Freud
No; we have made it clear that it would apply to housing benefit and not to other benefits. The cap will not have full coverage until universal credit comes in.
Baroness Drake
I did not get the chance to mention this when other issues were being discussed. The Minister gave a blunt message on what had caused benefit dependency. But the Bill is also setting the welfare system for people who have no record of benefit dependency. They are hard-working people who from time to time experience difficulty. We know that the Government are considering greater flexibility in the labour market. The newspapers have rumours about making group redundancies easier. Large-scale redundancies are much easier because it cuts the amount of consultation and makes it easier to dismiss people. I should like to push the Minister on the point that, notwithstanding the Government’s position on a cap, the transition to that cap needs to be considered so that the principle of the cap is not broken when hard-working people who do not have a record of benefit dependency are trying to engage in the labour market.
Lord Freud
I fully accept that point, as I have already indicated. I shall bear that point very much in mind as we go through the next stages.
Baroness Donaghy
My Lords, I deliberately did not intervene on the industrial injuries benefit interval because I did not want to interrupt the flow of the debate. The Minister will not be surprised that I was disappointed by his response to my amendment. This is about signals. I was very moved by the contribution by the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, on the distinction that people make between hard-working people and so-called scroungers. My amendment concerns working people—of course, not all are still working—who were injured in the course of their working lives. I do not think it is adequate just to say that it is different from disability living allowance.
To pick up a point made by my noble friend, Lady Drake, if the Government are trying to get over messages, they must be seen to support those who have spent their lives working, and even those who have been injured in the course of that work. I ask him whether he would be prepared to reconsider. I am not talking about the amounts of money, as we all know that in this area they are very small, but there is an important point of principle here and this is an opportunity for the Government to reinforce their message.
Lord Freud
My Lords, I will not make any promises on this but I will have another look at it. That is the weakest of possible promises. In fact, I am trying to say that it is not a promise at all. The signal I am giving is that I will have another look at it, but that is no guarantee of anything happening.
The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds
My Lords, I am very grateful to all those who have taken part in this long and detailed debate on this group of amendments. I am grateful to the Minister for the way in which he has engaged with the discussions. I take a certain amount of hope from some of the things that he has said about taking account of the arguments, which we have shared, and about some specifics, such as references to attendance allowance, to childcare costs, repeatedly, and to free school meals, that there will be exemptions which we can see in those areas. I am also encouraged by the beginnings of a discussion on the issue of carers, in particular kinship carers. I very much hope that that can be taken further in our debates. I am rather less encouraged by the comments on housing benefit, but I hope that there can be ways in which, at least in terms of transitional arrangements, we can move forward on those as well.
The area in which I am least encouraged relates to the amendment on child benefit. We still have not got a real answer to the question of why child benefit counts on one side of the scales and not on the other, a point that the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, has made several times in this debate. We can only use the figure £35,000 on the basis that we are not comparing like with like, otherwise it does not make sense as a figure to be used. That seems to me to be regrettable and I hope that the Minister will be prepared to have another look at this and to discuss just what the place of child benefit—perhaps the key benefit—is within the whole of our society, over many years, in terms of the cap. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Freud
“( ) A statutory instrument containing the first regulations under section 93 may not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before, and approved by resolution of, each House of Parliament.”
Lord Freud
“(a) to determine that payment related to the provision of support of children and for childcare costs should be paid to the main carer of those children,(b) to determine that payment related to the provision of support for housing costs should be paid to a person liable for payment of those housing costs, so far as those costs are not paid directly to the landlord, or(c) to determine that, where applicable, payments of universal credit shall be split between claimants in order to ensure payment is made in accordance with paragraphs (a) and (b).”
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, I think that the Minister was hoping for a Division during the previous discussion like I have never seen a Minister hope for a Division, but he was not saved by the Bell.
We have two amendments in this group. Amendment 102ZA would allow for the person mainly responsible for meeting particular costs to receive that part of universal credit intended to meet such expenses. It would enable the main carer, who is primarily dealing with the costs of children and childcare, to receive the elements of support related to this, and the person responsible for meeting housing costs to receive the part of universal credit that relates to housing costs. Amendment 102B would allow for the elements of universal credit to be calculated in such a way that facilitated this aim, tapering away each element individually to enable a fair proportion of each component of universal credit to be paid to the relevant member of the household. The amendment is therefore the corollary of the earlier amendment, in that if the payment can be split between two recipients, it should also be withdrawn, whether for reason of the taper or of any benefit cap, in the same proportion, rather than be taken either from the childcare element or the housing element.
Amendment 102ZA seeks to mitigate the risks associated with paying all universal credit to one person, in particular the risks for women if the current proposal goes ahead unamended. Concerns have been raised by a wide range of organisations, including the Women’s Budget Group, Oxfam, Platform 51, the Child Poverty Action Group, Women’s Aid, Daycare Trust and the Children’s Society.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, my Amendment 102A is in this group and I think that the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, has used most of the arguments that I was going to use. I will merely stress the importance of why the payment would be much better paid to the main carer who, in most of these instances, is the mother. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, said that the payment is usually her only source of income. Equally, we know from experience that it will be spent on food and resources such as that which will keep the household together. When there is violence in a family, the payment would also allow a mother to have enough personal income, albeit family income, to seek help from a refuge and so on. I hope that the Minister will think hard about making the payment available, regardless of the circumstances, to just one person. As we have heard, in cases where the payment goes to one person, something like 80 per cent of applications are made by the male in the household.
On the inequalities that exist in some households and the importance of encouraging women who will, under these circumstances, be fighting for their children as well as for themselves and for the opportunity to lead a decent life, I hope that the Government will think carefully about this and will not continue with the approach of just one member of the household being able to apply for the payment.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
My Lords, I support the two overlapping amendments, Amendments 102ZA and 102A, as well as Amendment 102B, to which I will not speak specifically. Clause 97 is the Groundhog Day clause. Back in the 1980s I helped to lead a charge against the then Conservative Government’s attempt to pay the family credit through the wage packet. I then helped to persuade the previous Government of the error of their ways when they proposed to pay working families’ tax credit through the wage packet. I was able to do this using JRF-funded research that I had just carried out with Jacky Goode and Clare Callender into the distribution of income within families in receipt of benefits. It demonstrated the importance of paying benefits for children to the mother, who was in all those families the parent with the main responsibility for the day-to-day care of the children. Indeed, once out-of-work families had migrated to child tax credit, we would have achieved that for out-of-work families as well as those in work.
It was with a heavy heart that I realised we were back to square one and having to persuade the Government of the day why it is so important to pay money for children direct to the parent who has the main responsibility for the day-to-day care of the children and for day-to-day budgeting. But this time the stakes are that much higher because so much is being wrapped up in the universal credit, particularly because, as Amendment 102ZA refers to, payment for housing costs are also at issue. We need to bear in mind here our earlier debate about the hazards of payment of rent as part of the universal credit.
Lord Freud
My Lords, Clause 97 provides that in the case of a benefit awarded jointly, such as universal credit, it can be paid to whichever person in a household they themselves nominate, or for all or part of it to be paid to either person regardless of their nomination.
Amendment 102A seeks to ensure that the child and childcare elements of universal credit are paid to the responsible carer within a household. Amendment 102ZA also seeks to ensure that the child and childcare elements of universal credit are paid to the responsible carer and that the housing element is paid to the partner responsible for housing costs.
Under universal credit, couples living in the same household will make a joint claim for the benefit payment. It is not correct to think of, as has been said, a man claiming for the household. In couples, both will be claimants, which is an important change under universal credit. We have outlined our intention to make universal credit a single payment to a household. This decision will ensure that the household can see clearly the effect of their decisions about work on total household income and ensure that claimants can take responsibility for budgeting. Households budget and organise their finances in different ways, so we want to enable couples to decide between them where their payment should go. It is not for the Government to dictate how a family arranges its finances.
We recognise, however, that there may be cases which require alternative arrangements and the Government intend to retain powers to split payments to couples as a safeguard. We are still considering the circumstances in which we would split payments and further details will be included in regulations. Examples of when the power is used could include where there is proven abuse of the money by one partner or where children are deemed to be at risk.
On the point made by the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayter and Lady Howe, on domestic violence, where there is abuse or children at risk we will have the power to split payments and we are talking to stakeholders about how this should work in practice. Let me try to be clear: when it becomes apparent that one partner is not managing money properly, we have the ability to switch the money entirely to the other partner, which is the appropriate safeguard.
The Government will also have the power to pay the housing element of universal credit direct to the landlord in exceptional cases. We are currently considering with stakeholders the specific circumstances in which this power could be exercised and again will set out further detail in regulations.
Lord Freud
However, in circumstances where a universal credit award is split, neither party will receive specific elements such as housing or childcare. They will each receive a proportion of the total award and decide for themselves how best to use the money. This adheres to one of the key principles of universal credit, which is that claimants must be responsible for their own budgeting.
In answer to the specific question from the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, contributory benefits will continue to be individualised entitlements, but we are looking at options for payment of benefit in cases where a household has entitlement to both contributory benefits and universal credit. It may be simpler to make a single payment of universal credit in that situation, but that is just one possible option and we have the power to cover different approaches.
We are, however, committed to ensuring that people can access support to manage their payment and help them budget effectively. This is likely to include access to nationally available advice and guidance, locally delivered targeted support and improved access to budgeting products.
Budgeting products, I know, mystify the noble Baroness. It is easy to think about universal credit and such areas in slightly Victorian terms. When we look at what universal credit is and the support mechanisms that are under it and wrap it up, we see that there are a huge number of options. I am actively looking at those and interested in encouraging access to what are popularly known as jam jar accounts. Those accounts allow partners to allocate part of their payment for specific purposes, particularly the ones that need to go to utility bills and rent. Such accounts incorporate direct debits and such things. There is a lot of work to be done in this area and I hope to be able to share that with noble Lords as we develop it.
We are talking to a lot of people about this. As well as to the banks and the financial services industry, we are talking to local authorities, housing associations and the voluntary sector about how to deliver this. I may have some more information about how this will start to work. I hope that it will break us out of what could be a 20-year debate into the opportunities offered by modern technology. I hope that I will be able to keep noble Lords updated.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
Will the Minister be able to update us before we get to this on Report? I am sure that we will want to return to this on Report.
Lord Freud
I would like to. I have people working on this and we are beginning to think quite differently about how these issues can be addressed—what is universal credit, what is a banking product and where is the join. We must not forget that, at a simple level, a universal credit is a payment stream with budgeting advances. It does not take a lot of imagination to see how it could join up with a more formal banking product and we have to work out where the line is drawn.
Turning to Amendment 102B, I appreciate that the intention behind it is to demonstrate that the taper can be applied to individual elements within the overall universal credit award so that payment of—
Lord Freud
My Lords, I was just tidying up on Amendment 102B. We are not looking to put the taper on individual elements, and I have described why we do not want to go down that route because it is quite different from what universal credit is. With these explanations, I urge the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Sherlock
Before my noble friend responds, will the Minister explain one thing to the Committee? He has explained why he wants to make clear to a claimant household exactly what income is coming to it as a result of universal credit and the different components to help them understand that. Why does he then have a problem with separating payments as opposed to assessments?
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
To save the Minister jumping up and down, I asked him a specific question about monitoring the impact on the distribution of income within households which I would be grateful if he would answer. I do not think he answered it, although the reply has been so fragmented because of the Divisions that we may have missed it.
Lord Freud
On the first question, I think we should look at this rather differently. It is one payment to the household. On whether we can look at how the household can do different things with that payment, I am very happy to look at all the budgeting supporting mechanisms. I am actively looking at them, and I hope I will get some more information on that.
To be honest, I have not got on the top of my head the detail on the monitoring. We will be looking at it very closely when that comes in and will be devising a structure to do that. As noble Lords know, we are planning to have a very substantial research exercise around universal credit, mainly because it is an almost unique research laboratory opportunity in that we can capture in one place all the different behaviours. I am looking very closely at how we can get world-class research behind many aspects of the universal credit.
Baroness Sherlock
This is the last time I shall intervene, I promise—and that is a strong promise rather than a weak one, I can assure the Minister. I understood him to be saying that the state does not want to intervene more than it has to in the financial affairs of families, and I can see that and agree with it, but if putting different amounts of money into different subsets of a bank account is going to encourage people to budget, somebody is still going to have to go through the process of working out which elements of the total award relate to different elements—children, rent et cetera—and deal with the complicated bit of that, which is understanding how tapers apply. When the Minister thinks about this again, will he consider whether the assessment can be for a household but when you get the answer, you simply split the amount and give it in two different directions? Is that not much easier than the Minister getting embroiled with the FSA or the FCA and complicated financial services market products?
Lord Freud
I am thinking about this area. I do not think I am thinking in quite the same way as the noble Baroness, but I am looking at it and hope I will be able to have a vigorous conversation with her on where that comes in at a later stage.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
I thank the Minister for his responses, although I may not like their content. I also thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Howe, Lady Lister and Lady Sherlock, for their support on these issues, which are very real. My guess is that there will come a time when the Government will have to revisit this when they see the results.
The words of the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, ought to be resonating around. She spoke about vulnerable women and inequalities within households. She said:
“These are women fighting for their children”.
We are talking about people without great access to income needing to feed their children. Very often, it will be a mother living with a man who is not the father of those children. This is great—I am a stepmum and well used to these relationships. But we have to understand that we are very often talking about not the idealised couple but the couple struggling to get their relationship together. Not to enable the woman as a right to have access to that, I find a little strange.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I imagine that this will be extremely brief. This is a genuinely probing amendment on a point of detail. Clause 98 covers payments on account and under the Bill there are three different legs under which those payments can be made. The first mirrors the existing provision of SSAA 1992. The second provides for payment to be made where a claimant is in need. Examples of how it might be applied apparently include where benefit has been claimed but the first pay day has not yet been reached. Regulations will provide the detail of the test of need. New Section 5(1)(r)(iii) enables the Secretary of State to make a payment on account where, again, subject to criteria set out in regulations, it can reasonably be expected to be recovered. I think such payments will replace the existing social fund budgeting loans. However, part of what this clause does is to repeal Section 22 of the Welfare Reform Act 2009, a provision which is not yet commenced.
The thrust of the question really springs from a sentence in the Explanatory Notes which says in respect of that provision that, had it been commenced,
“it would have extended the range of situations in which a payment on account could be made beyond the existing section 5(1)(r) … It would have extended making payments on account to situations similar to those that will be covered by new section 5(1)(r)(ii)”.
My question is: is there anything that Section 22 of the Welfare Reform Act 2009 would have permitted in terms of payments on account which are not now facilitated by those three legs in Clause 98? I beg to move.
Lord Freud
In the interests of time, I can give an assurance that there is nothing extra to worry about.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
Nothing extra to worry about is good enough to worry about with this Bill. I am grateful for that. Perhaps it can be dealt with in correspondence. It was a genuine inquiry about whether that swapping of the provisions precluded something which would have been allowed. I accept the noble Lord’s assurance on that. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Ramsbotham
“Benefits payments to prisoners
(1) Regulations shall provide that a person undergoing imprisonment or detention in legal custody who, at the time that imprisonment or custody commences, is in receipt of any of the qualifying benefits, shall be assessed, during his time in imprisonment or custody, for eligibility for those benefits at the time of his release from imprisonment or custody.
(2) For the purposes of this section, the qualifying benefits are—
(a) universal credit;(b) jobseeker’s allowance;(c) employment and support allowance;(d) income support;(e) personal independence payment, to the extent provided for in regulations made under section 84; and(f) any other benefits provided for in regulations made under this section.(3) Regulations made under this section shall provide that the assessment required under subsection (1) shall commence as soon as a person is received into imprisonment or custody.
(4) Regulations shall in particular provide that a person appointed by the Secretary of State shall record, at the time a person is received into imprisonment or custody, details of any qualifying benefits which are in payment at that time, together with any personal information needed to establish the person’s identity, including but not limited to their national insurance number.
(5) An assessment of eligibility under subsection (1) shall be completed in such time as to ensure that the person assessed receives payment of any benefits for which he is assessed as being eligible no later than one week after his release from imprisonment or custody.
(6) Regulations under this section shall be made by the Secretary of State and shall be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure.”
Lord Ramsbotham
My Lords, this amendment has its genesis as long ago as 1996. As Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Prisons, I found that, at the end of their sentence, prisoners were released with a discharge grant of £46 or, if they had no address to go to, £92. The numbers claiming £92 went down when home detention curfew or tagging was introduced because, in order to qualify, they had to give an address. They were then required to go to their local jobcentre and sign on for whatever benefits they were entitled to, so having to live on their discharge grant until those came through, which could take up to three weeks and sometimes longer. I ask Members of the Grand Committee how they would cope if they were a single parent with dependent children having to live on £46 for three weeks, probably having lost their accommodation thanks to the rule brought in by Mr Peter Lilley in 1995 whereby council accommodation would be forfeited after 13 weeks of absence and their possessions removed. That is not to excuse those who break the law, but it offers an explanation for the appalling high reoffending rate among recently released offenders.
When I was Chief Inspector of Prisons, and on several occasions since then, including in your Lordships’ House, I have asked why benefit claims could not be processed while someone is in prison so that on release they do not receive a grant but the first of future regular payments. As very many prisoners are receiving some form of benefit before they go into prison, it should not be beyond the wit of man to suspend those payments during the period of imprisonment and resume them on release. However, every sort of reason has been put forward about why that is impossible, which I put down to lack of will power: the prisons from which they are released may not be in the same geographical area where they live and, therefore, not in the area where their nearest jobcentre is; there are no Jobcentre Plus employees in prisons who could process the claims; or the prison into which they were received and which suspended their payment may not be the same one from which they are released. I think all this is baloney and that the Government, by not grasping the nettle, are contributing to the reoffending rate.
My amendment is designed to put an end to that nonsense by regulating that individual benefit claims are processed during a person’s imprisonment so that the discharge grant becomes a thing of the past, except for those who do not qualify for benefit. There are other spin-offs to this process that can only help the conduct of imprisonment, because an individual’s national insurance number is a unique identification weapon armed with which there is no reason why one cannot pass information regarding individual claims around the system. Unique national insurance numbers, without which benefit claims cannot be made, will also help to prevent identity fraud, because pretending to be someone else will deny provision.
My amendment specifically mentions those who were in receipt of benefits at the time of their reception into custody, but I shall amend it at a later stage to include the assessment of all people inside and the initial assessment of those whose entitlement is discovered only when they are in custody. What I am proposing is in fact in line with something that has already been set in train regarding the work programme. The Deputy Prime Minister announced on 16 August that the Government intended to mandate prison leavers to the programme immediately on release from prison, with national implementation for jobseeker’s allowance claimants from March 2012, and to work with the Ministry of Justice on a pilot integration of reoffending outcomes into work programmes.
To enable that to happen, Jobcentre Plus advisers will process jobseeker’s allowance claims in prison—although for some extraordinary reason it is said that discussions with claimants will be voluntary and not mandatory. They will then make a record of all prison leavers that will be retained for 13 weeks from the date on which they leave custody. If a claim for jobseeker’s allowance is made during that time, the prison leaver will be referred to the work programme at the point of claim. To a layman, this all seems convoluted and bureaucratic. If the Department for Work and Pensions really is fully committed to supporting the rehabilitation of offenders, why can officials not sit down with those from the Ministry of Justice and work out a system that applies to every single prison leaver, not just those who are in the market for the work programme or jobseeker’s allowance?
The reason for proposed subsection (3) in my amendment is that, all too often, resettlement essentials in prison are left until the very end of a sentence, in which case it may be too late to process benefit claims. However, if processing is started immediately so that a prisoner’s status on release is well known in advance, that will be avoided. This applies to the work programme as much as to the universal benefit. Of course there will be problems with those serving short sentences but, as I have suggested, suspension and resumption rather than initiation may well be the required process.
Bearing in mind the unnecessary reoffending and misery that present procedures have caused for too long, I have corresponded with both the Ministry of Justice and the Minister over this amendment, being amazed that successive Governments should not have done something to rectify this over the years—particularly this Government, in view of what they currently have in hand at both the MoJ and the DWP. I am very grateful to the Minister for his response to my letters but, with respect, I suggest that in drafting his answer his officials may not have made the connections that I have tried to describe. I therefore ask him to reconsider his written refusal to support my amendment, dated 26 October, and meet me to discuss further action before Report. I beg to move.
Baroness Meacher
My Lords, I have not prepared any comments on this amendment, but it seems to me to be of enormous importance. I cannot imagine that the Minister would not wish to support it.
One very obvious proposal would be for every prison to work out the release rate of their prisoners and to determine how many hours per week of a Jobcentre Plus person they need in the prison to process all these prisoners in order that they are paid their full benefit entitlement before, I suggest, they go out of the door or within the first week.
It is a fact that a very large number of prisoners reoffend within that very early period following release, which seems almost inevitable. What else are these people supposed to do? I therefore hope that the Minister will indeed meet my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham to consider how to do it. It has surely to be done; it is a matter of how best to do it—whether to have people in the prison doing this work to overcome the problems of people moving from one area to another and even while they are in prison. I can see that that is a problem for individual jobcentres, but, one way or another, I hope that this can be resolved.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, briefly, I also support what my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham said. It clearly makes sense and is essential for the rehabilitation of offenders to be begun and appropriately carried through. Above all, the idea of applying it to all people, not necessarily just those who would have qualified in the first instance, must be a sensible way forward. I would have thought that the business of suspension and resumption would apply to very short sentences. I, too, very much hope that the Minister will rethink and at least have these conversations for the long-term benefit of what we are all trying to achieve—less offending in the first place.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, has made a very powerful case, particularly for those serving short sentences. One can be reasonably confident that the benefit entitlement with which they enter prison will remain the same when they leave it. Could the Minister help me by fleshing out his thoughts a little further on a situation in which you cannot know in the same way, under universal credit, whether someone leaving prison is going into the household of a former partner with children or whether that household has broken up while he has been in prison? What question marks will there be? It was much easier to arrange when we were dealing with a single benefit, such as jobseeker’s allowance, which was not particularly related to the network of other benefits that a household might receive. It would clearly work for those serving short sentences or for somebody who was single throughout their sentence and expected to come out single. Could the Minister help us on how he would handle a situation in which a person was going back into a household with children, where there might be rent to be paid from his universal credit entitlement? He might go back expecting that payment to be made to him. Perhaps the Minister could help us on that.
Lord Ramsbotham
Thank you very much. I am glad that the noble Baroness raised that point. It reinforces something that many of us have been saying for a long time: the prison system of this country is not organised to help itself. The trouble is that prisoners are scattered all over the country by an incoherent national population management structure, as opposed to—as recommended by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, after the Strangeways riots in 1990—prisons being grouped into what he called community clusters or regional clusters so that nobody ever left their region. Therefore, all the resources of the region could be applied to the rehabilitation of their own offenders. It will be very difficult for the Ministry of Justice to resolve the questions that noble Lords have asked under the present distributed system. If prisons were regionalised and the prison authorities properly hooked into all the authorities in the region, it would be much easier to liaise with the regional authorities responsible for finding out that sort of detail. That should of course be part of the whole rehabilitation process anyway. The questions that the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, posed are absolutely ones that should be referred to the Ministry of Justice. We should ask, “How will you ensure that these are answered, because they must be?”.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville
My Lords, my role in this Grand Committee has been very much in the light of that line from Milton:
“They also serve who only stand and wait”.
The occasions on which I have spoken have been unexpected to the Committee and have surprised even me. I am indebted to my old friend, the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, for having moved his amendment. He will not remember, but in my last month as a Member of Parliament, I had just such a case. It was the first time that I had ever had one. A man had been in prison for drug-related offences and had just come out. At my surgery, he described to me the nature of the problem with which he was then confronted. I cannot remember whether we spoke on the telephone or face-to-face, but I recall saying to the noble Lord—of course I knew his background—that we had known each other a long time and even played cricket together, sometimes on the same side and sometimes against each other. I laid out the case and the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, said in despair, “You are describing what happens so often, so often, so often”. I am only sorry that by virtue of leaving the House of Commons at that moment, I never heard how the story ended. I speak now because it is quite clear not only from today but from my earlier experience that there is a real problem that we must deal with.
The Earl of Listowel
My Lords, I will speak briefly to support my noble friend and also to ask whether, if there is some difficulty with achieving this as a one-off from the start, one might start by focusing on women in custody. They are more likely than men to have dependants. I see also the problem raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis. Unfortunately, one of the drawbacks of incarcerating so many women in this country is that once they are taken into custody, the family breaks down. If the Minister can go only part of the way in this context, I hope that he might think in particular about the issue of women in custody.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, as I have often said, my education on these issues has grown thanks to the Minister, but I am afraid that today he was trumped by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, from whom I learned that one may use the word “baloney” in your Lordships’ Committee. Given his reputation, I am slightly hesitant about speaking on this, but I will add a few comments. I must say that the last time that the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, told us his story about Degsy in Liverpool, we got significant movement from the Minister, so I hope that his charm will work equally well today.
The amendment seeks to ensure that people who are coming out of custody get swift access to the benefits to which they are entitled. The Prison Reform Trust report, Time is Money, stated that eight out of 10 former prisoners claim benefits. Obviously, delays in accessing them can lead to enormous financial hardship and stress. It can also increase the risk of reoffending. We also know—although I am sure not as well as the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham—how many people in prison have multiple needs.
The transitions of entering or leaving prison, or becoming homeless, often lead to both personal and financial crisis. We think of coming out of prison as very positive, but it can be traumatic for people with multiple needs. With no financial contingencies, these people usually rely on a benefit system that they experience as complicated, slow and unhelpful. In extremis, some return to crime, as that was their proven source of income. The report found many problems experienced by people who were just out of prison, such as: delays of up to four weeks before the first payments, with little or no explanation; problems with claims that had been started before they had gone to prison, and which had to be resolved before any new claims could be made; problems of claims being delayed because they had no fixed address; disputes over prison admission and release dates, where timings can be crucial; and problems caused by not closing down a claim on entry to prison, resulting in a fraud investigation and the suspension of the new claim. Many of the people we are talking about have multiple needs. About one-third of people in prison do not have a bank account, which makes the payment of a deposit for housing or to cover early expenses even harder to organise on release.
As the noble Lord said, help beforehand with immediate access to benefits is key if the person is not to feel the need to return to using other people's money simply to survive. It emphasises the point that has been made about the need for help and advice while in prison. This will be particularly the case over the next few years, when the whole benefit system will have changed; the one that they knew on going into prison will be quite different from the UC world when they come out. We also know that in one survey that about half the prisoners had debts that awaited clearance on release, and one in three owed money for housing. That gets them started on a real problem of owing money on existing housing. It also touches on an earlier amendment about splitting a joint universal credit if they return to a partner with children and then want to take over responsibility for the housing amount. There could be some difficult readjustment or re-entry. When publishing a book about returning from the war in 1945—I remind noble Lords on that side of the table that we had a really good election result that year—it was interesting that it was difficult for stable, loving marriages when a man came home from the war and wanted to take over financial responsibility. So these things affect whole swathes of people. It is a stressful time, and getting benefits lined up early is really important.
The Centre for Social Justice, which is often mentioned in this Committee, has also highlighted the problems faced by people leaving custody. Its report, Locked Up Potential, recognised that delays in processing benefits meant that many people who are discharged have no source of income when it is most urgently needed. I am sure that the Minister is very familiar with its recommendations, which are that:
“To bridge the finance gap, with the objective of reducing the resulting crime which it can fuel, we recommend that all prison employment and benefits advisors be required by the Department of Work and Pensions … and the MOJ to initiate core benefit applications at least three weeks prior to a prisoner’s nominated release date”.
It would be helpful if the Minister could let us know what discussions the DWP has had with the MoJ about responding to the recommendations in that report and ensuring that those leaving prison are not left with gaps and delays in getting the financial support that may be essential to them in starting a new life outside custody.
We know that the coalition Government have decided not to continue with the progress to work scheme, which provided support to ex-offenders. That support will be provided through the work programme, although as we have heard there will be some difficulties there. It would be useful to know what decisions have been made about access to work programmes for ex-offenders and whether they will be fast-tracked to receive this support. If not, what alternative arrangements are being put in place to ensure that they receive the tailored employment support that they might need? While I hope that the Minister will respond to discussions for talk, I also hope that it will not just be talking the talk but walking the walk and that we will get some progress.
Lord Freud
My Lords, I have listened with interest to the noble Lord’s remarks and acknowledge his expertise on penal policy. I can also say that I am utterly delighted to meet the noble Lord. I can say now that I do not accept his amendments and I hope that what I describe of what we are actually doing will leave him joyful, both after what I describe here and after our meeting, which will happen as soon as we can. I believe that the route that we are going down will prove more beneficial in the long run than what he has suggested in this amendment, which is more expensive and resource-intensive, in terms of in-prison assessments.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
Regarding the payment on account, I do not know whether it is exactly the way to go forward, but I think it is the only way you can make this work. However, on the assumption that most people coming out of prison may well be under the age of 35, will the Minister confirm that he expects the payment to include at least the HB single room rent, as well as the jobseeker’s allowance? At £67, the jobseeker’s allowance will not go very far in paying rent. Therefore, the payment on account benefit of UC would include a putative amount for both elements—both what we know is called JSA and what we currently call housing allowance.
Lord Freud
My Lords, there are two things here: budgeting advances and a process of how we move people on to the system that we are looking at. I cannot set that out in detail, but we will be doing so in regulations as we elaborate that system.
Lord Ramsbotham
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply and I also thank those who have contributed to the debate. I have to admit that I am encouraged. However, there is a “but”, and my “buts” are always about the maintenance of momentum. The noble Lord mentioned those on the work programme, but what about those who are not and what about those who are falling between the cracks? When we meet, I should like to explore the question of all the people whom one finds in prison, such as the one that the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, quoted, who fall through the cracks and do not get picked up.
I take issue with the business of leaving things until late. The Prison Service is notoriously bad at leaving things until they are late, and it is the same with housing and debt management. The sooner you can start work on it, the better. It will not be expensive because it can be done by the people in prison, provided that they are brought into the process. It should not be left.
I am very grateful for the Minister’s offer of a meeting. I look forward to it because there is obviously more to discuss, and indeed I shall have one or two examples of that in my Amendment 107, which we shall come to later. That amendment is connected with what happens to people when they come out of prison. In the mean time, in the spirit of the Minister’s reply, and with my thanks for its comprehensive nature, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Meacher
I think I slightly missed my cue. I apologise. I rise on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, who gives her apologies to the Committee. My noble friend is unable to be with us due to a commitment in Birmingham today and she asked me to speak. I rise to give notice of our intention to oppose the question that Clause 99 stand part of the Bill. I must express my gratitude to Sue Royston of the CAB service for her help with this contribution.
The purpose of this amendment is to remove Clause 99, which requires claimants to apply for a revision before they can appeal. This clause would mean a mandatory extra step in the system, which complicates the process for claimants. The extra step has a strict legal time limit within which the application must be made. This inevitably means that some vulnerable people will lose their right to appeal, having failed to submit their application in good time. It will create extra work and extra expense. The reconsideration process is already in place anyway when someone appeals; the DWP just needs to use it more effectively.
What does the proposal mean for the process of challenging a decision? At present someone who receives a decision they disagree with has a month to challenge it. They can either ask the decision-maker to reconsider the decision or they can put in for an appeal. If they appeal, the DWP still has a duty to reconsider the decision. If, after reconsideration, the decision is unchanged, the appeal is passed on to the Tribunals Service automatically. This means that at the start of the process claimants have only one legal time limit to meet if they appeal. If the new proposal set out in Clause 99 is passed, someone who receives a decision they disagree with will have a month from the date of the decision to ask for a reconsideration. Then, when the claimant receives the result of that, they will have only a month from the date of the new decision to submit their appeal. Both of these deadlines will be strict legal time limits and a late reconsideration or appeal will be accepted only if good cause is proven. We all know that good cause is a very tough hurdle and very much a matter of discretion. One can never be sure that the decision is fair.
Perhaps the Minister can explain why the Government regard this change as necessary. In the equality impact assessment published in October, one reason given by the DWP for this proposal is:
“We wish to ensure that as far as is reasonably possible, disputes between claimants and the relevant decision making body regarding social security, child support and certain other decisions are resolved through internal processes”.
It makes no sense to suggest that this proposal is to ensure that decisions are resolved through internal processes. The process for doing this is already in place. If a claimant wants to challenge a DLA decision and appeals, time is given to collect evidence and a proper reconsideration of the evidence is made. Where a good cause is presented, the decision is frequently overturned. The taxpayer is saved the cost of an appeal and the claimant the stress of that appeal.
However, in ESA cases, until recently it was very common to send in an appeal one day and get back the reconsideration by return of post refusing to change the decision—the appeal had been forwarded to the Tribunals Service before any evidence could be collected. The reconsideration process has recently improved. However, the improvements are patchy. One CAB in the south-west reported that it had started to see an improvement in the reconsideration process, but ever since the reassessment process started in earnest, it appears that the decision-makers have been overwhelmed and in not a single case where the CAB has helped claimants appeal has the decision been overturned on reconsideration, and yet at tribunal the CAB service has a success rate of 90 per cent. Clearly something is going rather badly wrong.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, has made a powerful argument about why the current provisions cannot be properly implemented and why they are not sufficient. In welcoming the Minister to his first slot at the Dispatch Box today, I ask him whether it is possible, perhaps not today, although today if he can, for him to set out for us each of the benefits that would be affected by these proposed changes, what the current arrangements for those benefits are in respect of appeal provisions, what happens to payment or otherwise in the interim and the extent to which that would change under these new provisions? That would be important in helping us to understand what might happen in practice.
I may have missed the point when the noble Baroness was speaking on this issue, but is there a time limit for the DWP to respond to a reconsideration request? There are time limits which flow from it, but under these new arrangements, what causes the DWP to have to respond quickly or within a fixed timetable, particularly if for some of the benefits the dispute is about whether a benefit should be in payment at all? It might be an argument about the capital rules for universal credit or about the category that somebody is in. If it is ESA, I think the claimant gets the assessment rate until the matter has been settled. If the noble Lord is able to clarify that, it would particularly help us understand the import of these proposed changes.
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, has eloquently explained her concerns and those of her noble friend Lady Grey-Thompson, who cannot be with us today, about Clause 99. Let me try to address them.
I assure your Lordships that the time limits for claimants wishing to request a revision, or make an appeal, in relation to most social security benefits are not changing. What is changing is that claimants will need to ask for the decision to be looked at again before they can appeal. I hope that noble Lords will agree that it is in everyone’s interests for disputed decisions to be resolved at the pre-appeal stage wherever possible. Previous figures have indicated that approximately 65 per cent of cases overturned historically were a result of additional evidence being provided that was not available to the decision-maker.
While the claimant will be required to apply for reconsideration within one month of being notified of a decision, the process for making the request is informal. It does not require the claimant to supply a substantial submission and can be done by telephone, face to face or in writing, so claimants should not be subject to additional expense.
The purpose of Clause 99 is to allow DWP to focus on revision rather than responding to appeals, enabling more disputes to be resolved at an earlier stage. Claimants will still be able to ask for a written explanation of the decision and, where they do, the one-month time limit for applying for reconsideration will be extended. In the event that a claimant fails to request a reconsideration on time, the deadline can be extended where there are special circumstances—for example, a hospital admission —which make it impracticable for the claimant to meet the deadline. I assure the noble Baroness that when a request for reconsideration is made beyond the one-month deadline, no formal submission of reasons will be required. They can be supplied by telephone, allowing a decision-maker to consider whether they meet the criteria for an extension of the deadline.
This clause does not change which decisions carry appeal rights; it will simply require claimants to go through the internal reconsideration process first. The purpose of this is to ensure that the decision-making and appeal process is both fair and proportionate.
Although reconsideration is already practised in DWP, there is no legislative requirement for it to be carried out when an appeal is made. Clause 99 will introduce this requirement. Currently, decisions are routinely reconsidered on appeal, so the reconsideration process takes place after the claimant has already decided to appeal to the tribunal.
Under the new arrangements, DWP will use direct contact with the claimant to gather additional evidence relevant to the decision and will provide an explanation of the outcome of the reconsideration. The process will allow a claimant’s decision to appeal to be informed by whether reconsideration had provided them with a clear justification for the original decision, and a clear explanation of it.
Some parts of DWP have already introduced a more robust and independent reconsideration process. However, claimants may often have already made a formal appeal before this process begins. As the noble Baroness has rightly pointed out, under Clause 99, where a decision is overturned upon reconsideration, this will save the taxpayer the cost of an appeal and the claimant the stress of appealing.
The noble Baroness makes the point that, under the current process, no one can get to a tribunal without confirming their intent to carry on. However, if a claimant does not respond to the TAS1, the appeal does not simply stop. The tribunal will still be required to make a decision to strike out the appeal.
Currently, the claimant has 14 days to respond to a TAS1, which is sent along with the DWP response to the appeal and often the reconsideration outcome. Unless the claimant appeals early, which is the issue that we are trying to resolve, this gives the claimant only a short time to consider this information and make an informed decision on whether to proceed with their appeal or to withdraw.
Clause 99 will allow the claimant to make an informed decision about whether to appeal, having passed through a less formal process. There is currently no time limit for the DWP to complete the reconsideration process, nor is one proposed, but it is important to the DWP that each stage of the decision-making and appeals process is carried out within acceptable timescales and does not result in unreasonable delays for claimants. The department is considering carefully how best to monitor and evaluate this in future.
The noble Baroness expressed a concern that claimants will not qualify for payment of ESA pending reconsideration. No appellants should be left without support, since other benefits such as JSA may be available. No decisions have yet been made to change ESA. The main focus of the DWP is to make the correct decision, based on all the available evidence, at the earliest point. Clause 99 will also help claimants distinguish between revision and appeal. The process will be clearly explained via decision letters, leaflets and through direct contact with claimants.
The noble Baroness referred to costs. There will, of course, be costs, particularly relating to IT changes, to implement this clause. The DWP expects to meet these within its spending review settlement. Furthermore, savings are expected to be made in both the DWP and the Ministry of Justice via a reduction in appeals.
I do not think that I have responded in detail—
Baroness Meacher
It seems to me that this is a tricky subject area. I am struggling as regards what benefit there might be in introducing Clause 99. It seems to me that one is shifting the responsibility from the DWP to get on and undertake one of these reconsiderations to the claimant requesting that this happens. I am sure that the Minister will accept that these claimants have a pretty difficult life to manage anyway. To add on another process that they have to go through is going to cause all sorts of problems. Why cannot the DWP improve its processes as regards the reconsiderations so that they can happen automatically if a claimant is concerned about a decision? The DWP should get on and undertake a reconsideration, asking for any further evidence or whatever it wants. If it comes out with the same decision, it then informs the claimant and asks him or her whether they wish to pursue their appeal. I am not clear about that process. Can the Minister help me with that?
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, we are not trying to introduce a new stage—reconsideration and appeal have existed before; we are trying to get a better process of reconsideration before we get to appeal so that we can avoid a large number of appeals that occur. We are introducing an element of flexibility and informality so that claimants are not held quite so rigidly to deadlines, information and the form in which it comes. We plan to make the process more streamlined for them as well as for the department. We require Clause 99 to effect that.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
I understand the thrust of the point the noble Lord has just made but I am also trying to understand the position of claimants who ultimately rely on a successful appeal to end up in the right category. If I understood what the Minister said, the reconsideration needs to take place before they can get to an appeal, and there is no timeframe within which the DWP has to go through that reconsideration process before that appeal starts. Other things being equal, that would mean that it could take longer for those who rely on a successful outcome of an appeals process to end up in the right category. The extent to which that matters depends on what people are being paid in the interim. If, under ESA, they are paid the assessment period rate—the JSA rate—until the appeal has run its course, at least they may have some resources. However, if the issue is whether or not the benefit is payable at all, as there may be a dispute about capital, as I said earlier, they would receive nothing for that period. That is part of the worry. However, we understand the point about streamlining and the improvement that the noble Lord is seeking to make.
Lord De Mauley
I am grateful to noble Lords for allowing me the opportunity to clarify that. It is important to the department that each stage of the decision-making and appeals process is carried out within an acceptable timescale and does not result in unreasonable delays for claimants. Alongside implementation of this power, we intend to make further improvements to the reconsideration process, which will include suitable arrangements for monitoring and, where appropriate, improving the speed of the process.
Taking the second point made by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, which is allied to that to a great extent because it is a matter of how a claimant affords to live in the mean time, whatever the outcome of the appeal, the tribunal’s decision takes effect from the date of the original decision. So if the tribunal rules in the claimant’s favour and, for example, makes an award of benefit where the original decision was that the claimant did not qualify, all the arrears of benefit will be paid in full from the date that the claim took effect. I do not think that that particularly addresses the noble Lord’s concern.
The noble Lord and the noble Baroness expressed the concern that claimants will not qualify for the payment of ESA pending reconsideration. I have said before and I will say again—I hope that this will address the point made by the noble Lord—no appellants should be left without support since other benefits such as JSA should be available in those cases. He also asked a broader question about benefits more generally and generously offered me the opportunity to write to him or meet him. I would be grateful if we could expand on that in such a forum.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
I am grateful to the noble Lord for that and very happy to deal with that matter through correspondence. However, what does he believe to be a reasonable timeframe within which the reconsideration should routinely take place? What is the target and the plan for the department?
Lord De Mauley
I do not have an answer for the noble Lord. He is right to raise this issue. Perhaps I may include that in the correspondence.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
The Minister is being very helpful on this but I want to go back to the point made by my noble friend. This stemmed originally from what the noble Lord, Lord Freud, corrected, which was a misapprehension in the press some time back that people would lose ESA et cetera while they appealed. This was presented as an issue of moral hazard: why would anyone ever not appeal if they knew that through the process of appeal they would get a benefit even if subsequently this was not confirmed?
The other side of that moral hazard issue is: how many people, and under what circumstances and what benefits, could lose their income even though ultimately it might be reinstated by an appeals tribunal and backdated? During the process, which could very well take six weeks, what do they live on? The noble Lord may be able to respond now but, if not, perhaps he can write to us about in what circumstances, with what benefits and with what clients there could be a situation in which someone could lose their benefit, even though they were appealing and might subsequently be reinstated? During that process they could be living basically on the kindness of strangers.
Lord De Mauley
I understand what the noble Baroness wants and I am grateful to her for allowing me to write.
Baroness Drake
If there is an intention to put much more emphasis into making the reconsideration stage effective and efficient, is the department intending to commission an independent audit of that and to publish the findings so that people can have confidence in the effectiveness of the changes at the reconsideration stage?
Lord De Mauley
It will not be an independent process but it will be monitored closely in the department.
Baroness Meacher
I thank the Minister for that full response and the detailed explanations about a number of these tricky issues. I have no doubt that my noble friend who is unable to be with us today will read Hansard carefully and may want to come back to it later.
“(8) For the purposes of this section, “entitlement” means the amount that would have been awarded to the claimant had the claim been correctly represented and all relevant material facts disclosed for the period to which the overpayment applies.”
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
In moving Amendment 103ZZZA I shall speak also in support of Amendment 103ZA tabled in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, to which I have added my name. In fact, Amendment 103ZZZA has been designed with the help of the Child Poverty Action Group to complement and support Amendment 103ZA, and it is just an accident of drafting that it is being taken first. I shall therefore start by speaking to Amendment 103ZA, which also has the support of Carers 2000 and a large number of charities and churches. The purpose of the two amendments is to apply to universal credit the rules on recoverability of overpayments that reflect those currently applied to most benefits in regard to official errors that a claimant could not have known about and to provide for the offset of underlying entitlement from overpayments, a concept that I shall explain in a moment.
The current rules on the recoverability of overpayments that apply to most benefits provide for recovery where overpayments have arisen because of,
“misrepresentation or failure to disclose a material fact by a claimant or by any other person”.
This is a fair and just test which has been in place for many years and has been tried and tested in case law. Its purpose is to allow the recovery of an overpayment which arises as the result of a claimant’s actions or failures, whether innocent or fraudulent, but protects the claimant in a case where the overpayment arises because of official error by the benefit authorities. In other words, it sanctions recovery in the case of negligence by the claimant but offers protection in the case of negligence by the state. I believe that this is a fair and just balance which reflects the responsibilities of claimants to correctly notify their circumstances when claiming benefit and the benefit authorities to calculate correctly and pay awards based on the information available to them.
Clause 102 proposes to allow recovery in all cases regardless of culpability. I believe that this alters the balance of responsibilities and justice unfairly in favour of the state. It would mean, for example, that a claimant could be presented with a large bill for repayment amounting to thousands of pounds many years after an overpayment occurred, even though the overpayment was due entirely to the negligence of the benefit authorities. In return for providing accurate and up-to-date information, I believe that a claimant is entitled to the accurate calculation of payment of entitlement by the benefit authorities and that the state should bear any losses caused by its own negligence.
In the other place the Minister of State accepted that there are some real issues around whether vulnerable individuals can or cannot be aware of the error that takes place when overpayments are made without them realising it, and they only discover afterwards that they have incurred a substantial debt. We have to be careful and sensitive in that situation. He went on to say:
“The real question about the clause, however, is whether it is sensible to establish safeguards in primary legislation that apply absolutes to a situation and which effectively say, ‘You can never do anything’”.—[Official Report, Commons, Welfare Reform Bill Public Bill Committee, 19/5/11; col. 1018.]
That recognition of the sensitivity of this is welcome, but my answer to the Minister’s question in this instance is “yes”. The Government’s view however, is, of course, “no”. Although the Government appear to have recognised the justice of the case, they have done so only by indicating that they will provide for non-recovery in cases of official error in a code of practice on recovery. Can the Minister say whether that code of practice will be published, whether it will be made public, and exactly what it will cover?
I do not believe that a code of practice is sufficient, and I would argue that it is essential that provision is statutory so that an aggrieved claimant has the right of appeal against recoverability to an independent tribunal. The claimant should have a clear right rather than be vulnerable to discretionary decision-making. The Government have expressed their confidence that the introduction of universal credit will significantly reduce the scope for official error. If that is the case, the administrative burden of retaining protections for claimants unjustly prejudiced by official-error overpayments should be greatly reduced.
The system of automatic recoverability, perhaps supplemented by a non-statutory code of practice as proposed in Clause 102, mirrors the system which applied to tax credits. This system has blighted the administration of tax credits, caused widespread injustice and hardship and has been widely condemned in the media and in reports by the Parliamentary Ombudsman and the Select Committees in the other place. It has also resulted in thousands of complaints to MPs, the Revenue adjudicator and the ombudsman.
Amendment 103ZZZA provides for the offset of underlying entitlement when calculating overpayments. Underlying entitlement means the entitlement that would have been paid to the claimant had the claim been made correctly at the time. For example, an overpayment might arise if a claimant had separated from their partner and the claim continued to be paid as a couple claimed for several weeks after the date of separation. The claimant had not declared the change of circumstances immediately and had told their personal adviser that they were not aware that they needed to because they had hoped that the separation was temporary. I think that sometimes, in those circumstances, you do not really want to face up to what is happening. If the claim is cancelled from the date of the separation then the claimant must make a new claim. However, had they immediately declared the change then their claim would have been reassessed as a single claim, so it would have given rise to entitlement as a single claimant which could be offset against the overpayment as underlying entitlement. I am sorry that that is slightly complicated.
This mirrors the provision in the housing and council tax benefit regulations which ensures that only the true amount of excess entitlement is recovered. This provision is particularly needed in relation to universal credit because there is a requirement for the benefit to be claimed by either a single claimant or by both members of a couple, which, as is the case with tax credits, results in many notional overpayments when there is a change of status from single to joint claims and vice versa. The Revenue has belatedly recognised the need for the offset of underlying entitlement in such cases and introduced non-statutory provision for this from January 2010. This Bill gives the opportunity of providing for offsetting on a statutory basis, ensuring that it is applied fairly, openly and consistently.
It may be that it is intended to do this in regulations. I must apologise because I have seen the draft regulations only today. I have had a quick look at them and it seems that they are perhaps intended to do that. I am glad that the Minister is nodding but it would be even better if he put it formally on the record so that we know that that is the case. I am very happy that for once the Minister is nodding rather than shaking his head when I am speaking. There is another question that I hope the Minister will be nodding at as well. Can he assure the Committee that there will be a right of appeal to an independent tribunal in the case of a dispute as to whether an overpayment was caused by official error and should or should not be recovered; or—I do not see any nodding going on there—if there is no such right of appeal, how will a claimant be able to challenge a decision to recover an overpayment?
In conclusion, this might appear to be a rather techy amendment. However, the strong lobbying by a wide number of churches and charities signals its significance. The reason they are so concerned is in part because they believe it to be simply unfair that a claimant might have to pay for a mistake made by the state. They are also concerned because they know from their own work what this would mean in terms of hardship and possibly increased debt to moneylenders and loan sharks as claimants’ benefit was reduced below the statutory minimum. Heaven help them if they are also subject to capping. I hope the Minister will look favourably on a small but important amendment, which serves to protect the underlying rights of claimants. I beg to move.
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope
My Lords, I support the case that the noble Baroness has made. I am particularly interested in the answer to the question about an independent appeal right in these circumstances. That would be very useful indeed and I hope that the Minister can confirm that that will be true.
I have four amendments in this group. They can be dealt with with reasonable dispatch but they deal with a very important issue that surrounds the whole question of amounts recoverable by deductions from earnings. During the Bill’s Commons stages the Government amended Clause 102 to add a new Section 71ZD(3)(e), which addresses the,
“level of earnings below which earnings must not be reduced”.
That is very welcome, as far as it goes, but I wonder whether the Minister could say a bit about whether any thought has been given to how that will be delivered and how that protection will be rolled out. That is important.
Baroness Hollins
My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 103ZA, which is in my name. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, for speaking about it earlier and also to the noble Baroness, Lady Healy, and my noble friend Lady Meacher for their support. This Bill gives considerable discretion to jobcentre officials over many decisions and this amendment is about an area of their discretion that has been limited since the Supplementary Benefits Act 1976. Members of the other place have now proposed that this limit to their discretion should be removed. The provision of the 1976 Act was repeated in Clause 71 of the Social Security Administration Act 1992, in which the Secretary of State has to prove that a claimant must have either misrepresented or failed to disclose a material fact in order to recover an overpayment, thus protecting claimants from the recovery of payments arising entirely out of official error. Previously there was no provision for the recovery of administrative costs either, which the current Bill could also change.
Think about a claimant who has a letter from officials telling him that he is entitled to universal credit, which is paid to the landlord in rent. However, six months later, officials tell him that they have made a mistake and ask him to repay several thousand pounds—money that has already gone to the landlord, either direct from the local authority or from the claimant. The issue that then has to be discussed with the claimant is whether he or she could have known it was an error. If it can be proved that the claimant could not reasonably have known that it was, then the state has to bear the cost of the state’s mistakes. It is difficult to understand why such a reasonable and just law should be repealed.
This amendment is proposed by Caritas Social Action Network and the Zacchaeus 2000 Trust and I am grateful to them for their detailed briefings. It is also supported by more than 20 NGOs, including organisations from five different Christian denominations, the Royal College of Psychiatrists, AdviceUK, Community Links, Derbyshire Unemployed Workers’ Centres, Mind, Money Advice Trust, the National Housing Federation, Save the Children, Shelter and the United Kingdom Public Health Association. All of them, in one way or another, are working for the poorest citizens of the United Kingdom.
They are all concerned that overpayments of universal credit and council tax that claimants could not reasonably be expected to notice would be left to build up over time into significant cumulative debts that the state could then recover through court action or reductions in benefits. Such debt recovery would jeopardise basic living costs, housing security, payment of utilities bills and nutrition, and risk damaging mental health.
An additional concern relates to the announcement by the Minister for Employment in another place that the standard allowance of the universal credit will be £67.50 a week for a single adult. The Joseph Rowntree minimum income food standard is £46.31 a week for a healthy diet. The sum of £67.50 will not cover the weekly cost of all essential items for an adult, let alone the additional repayment of overpayments, debts or arrears.
The burden could be further increased, for example, through the state additionally recovering the costs that it incurs when making recoveries through the courts, or through employers recovering administrative costs that they incur when instructed to reduce a claimant’s wages in order to offset a benefit overpayment. In both of these circumstances, people may end up with debts larger than the sum they were originally overpaid by—a seemingly illogical and unjust situation.
Another concern is that it seems possible that the DWP would be able to recover the overpayment from landlords, or from anyone who happens to be living with a claimant who is a beneficiary of the benefit concerned. The recovery of large blameless overpayments will have a devastating effect, not just on the claimant but on all other members of the household, which might include children, a pregnant woman or a disabled person who has particular additional nutritional and health needs.
It is inevitable that a new IT system for the delivery of welfare will create errors that are the fault of the employer entering information, officials at HMRC or the jobcentre. This is most likely when pilots are being run to test the system. The poorest citizens and their families should not have to pay the debts arising from any faulty consequences of the Government’s reforms.
As well as these immediate and potentially devastating impacts, such significant financial burdens all too often result in mental health difficulties or exacerbate existing ones—a link consistently highlighted by prominent institutions such as the Government Office for Science or charities such as the Royal College of Psychiatrists and Mind. Numerous reports have drawn attention to the direct correlation between large debts and family breakdown, illustrating the further dangers of subjecting those dependent on benefits to unexpected reclaims. Clearly such consequences would be utterly at odds with the Government’s intentions with this Bill.
Assurances have been given in the other place that officials will exercise common sense and considered decision-making, so as not to cause undue hardship. But the removal of the existing safeguard in primary legislation will mean that each case is ultimately based on the discretion of different officials, and would leave absolutely no guarantee that decisions will err on the side of protecting vulnerable people. This could lead to expensive litigation, if advice and legal aid could be found, which could have been avoided had the prohibition remained in place. However, it is more likely that the vulnerable claimant will pay, because of the lack of advice and legal aid, all of which has been cut. Then the claimants will suffer the stress of unmanageable debt and an increased risk of mental health problems and family breakdown.
It should be emphasised that the proposed amendment would not affect recoverability when overpayments result from the misrepresentation or withholding of relevant facts by a claimant, thus providing no respite for those seeking to defraud the system. Rather, it seeks to maintain three decades of protection—rightly afforded, in my view, to benefit claimants—from human error or technical fault by departments, landlords or local authorities, and any future errors as the result of the new IT system.
I urge the Minister to give this amendment serious consideration, to reinforce an existing provision that protects those whose health and welfare will be further compromised without it.
Baroness Healy of Primrose Hill
My Lords, I will also speak to Amendment 103ZA. I will be brief. It may appear overly generous on the part of a cash-strapped Government already making severe cuts in benefits and public services not to demand repayments. However, in the interests of natural and administrative justice it cannot be right to request repayment when every penny is already allocated to get a family through the week—and now to be the month. Benefits are about to be cut and will no longer keep pace with inflation. Housing, energy, food and travel costs are all rising at frightening speed. With the best will in the world, I cannot comprehend how a family which is already struggling can be asked to pay back more than its members are currently being paid either in wages or benefits or both. Many charities and churches have raised the alarm over this element of the Bill. I strongly urge the Government to reconsider such a course. It may seem small in the overall picture of state spending but would be enormous for a family on an already modest income.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, my noble friend Lady Hayter is going to do Front-Bench duty on this group of amendments. I want to speak briefly to Clause 105, where a probing amendment has been put down, to make sure that we have understood what is happening in respect of the statute of limitations.
My understanding is that, at the moment, to take action to recover sums which are outstanding, you cannot go back more than six years: they are statute-barred at six years. The issue is what an action is for these purposes. The clause clarifies that, other than proceedings in a court of law, recoveries of sums due are not actions. The consequence, as I understand it, is that they are not statute-barred, so unless you need to take action through court proceedings, as a result of this clause there is no statute of limitations applying to debts arising under the Social Security Act or the provisions that are set down in the clause. That seems to be a departure from the existing position.
Moreover, the clause says that the amendment is regarded as having always formed part of the 1980 Act, so that it is retrospective, and does not just operate from the date this clause comes into existence, except in respect of proceedings. I have a question as to what, for these purposes, the proceedings are which would still remain outside the retrospection of this clause. But more importantly, what assessment has been made of the additional amounts that might be brought in scope for recovery as a result of these changes to the law?
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, as has been set out my noble friends and other noble Baronesses, the amendments relate to how and in what circumstances the state will seek to recover overpayment of universal credit from claimants. As many here, although not me, will remember, the issue of overpayments caused a considerable headache for the previous Government when tax credits were introduced, so it is vital that the present Government get this part of the Bill right. I am sure that anyone with those memories will support this.
In this Bill we have the added complication that, in addition to overpayments being recoverable from the claimant, they will also be recoverable, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, has mentioned, from landlords in certain situations. I am not talking about dodgy landlords but those who are blissfully unaware that the rent they were receiving was not from their tenant but was due to some sort of overpayment, whether by accident or design on the part of the tenant claimant or by error on the part of the DWP. We know that at present there are some cases of overpaid housing benefit that can be recovered from a landlord. Could the Minister tell the Committee whether this clause widens the set of circumstances in which benefits can be recovered? Also, what type of benefit could be recovered from landlords, rather than from claimants? What consultation has taken place on this proposal with the NLA or any other representative of landlords?
I have certainly heard anecdotal remarks from both actual and potential landlords. By the way, I am not someone who thinks that lots of anecdotes add up to evidence. However, I have heard that the idea that landlords might be asked to make good some overpayment made to a tenant when they have no way of recouping it from the tenant is a further disincentive to entering or remaining in this market. I remind the Minister that this comes just at a time when access to private rented accommodation, especially the one-bedroom type quite favoured by small landlords, is so needed due to the housing shortage; to take in the swathe of refugees from the social housing sector as his policy on underoccupation kicks in; and as families may be forced to leave high-rent London for far distant places, as we heard earlier today. We need to encourage landlords to make properties available, not threaten them that they may be left paying for overpayment of a tenant’s claims.
Amendment 103ZZA seeks to ensure that the recovery of any overpayment leaves the claimant with the correct entitlement based on their circumstances, as my noble friend Lady Lister spelt out. Again, this draws on the experience of tax credits, where in some cases claimants were asked to pay back overpayments on the one hand while applying for additional entitlement because of a change in circumstances on the other. The amendment would make sure that the end result is that the claimant receives the payment to which he or she is entitled.
Amendments 103ZZB, 103ZZC, 103ZZD and 103ZZE seek to replace references to earnings with those to income, and then to ensure that the recovery of overpaid benefits cannot leave a claimant without sufficient income on which to live. As has been said, within the current system protections of this type are in place, setting limits on the amount by which the DWP, local authority or HMRC can reduce benefit payments to recover an overpayment. Could the Minister let us know what limits the department intends to place on the recovery of universal credit, and whether they will meet the aim of ensuring that claimants retain a minimum amount on which to live?
Amendment 103ZA ensures that benefits overpaid as a result of official error cannot be recovered when the claimant could not reasonably be expected to know that he or she was being overpaid. In explaining new Section 115C in Clause 113, the DWP says that negligence constitutes not exercising the care which the circumstances demand; that is, being careless. It gives the example of not checking statements made in a claim. However, this amendment is quite different. It is not about lack of care; it is about lack of knowledge. The claimant cannot be expected to know that the amount they were receiving was in fact an overpayment.
Each of us, perhaps even some very rich people in this Room, would know whether £1 million came into our bank accounts as opposed to the £1,000 that we were expecting. However, I have to confess that when the DWP pays my pension I have no idea whether the amount is correct. It is difficult to determine that, partly because I do not get a monthly statement—the equivalent of a pay slip—from the DWP and partly because it is four-weekly and every now and again there is a month when I receive two payments. If that happened to fall in January and then perhaps in October and I got a double payment, I am afraid that I would have absolutely no idea whether that was the correct timing for my extra bonus month—it is always very nice—or whether it was an error, and I have precious little way of checking. This amendment is about ensuring that any overpayment which the claimant could not be expected to know was wrong should not be clawed back. I promise noble Lords that it is not intended to protect my own position; it is tabled simply in the interests of fairness.
Lord Freud
My Lords, I am delighted to hear such full-hearted support for monthly payments. First, I would like to speak to Amendment 103ZZA in my name. This amendment is technical in nature and seeks to restore the policy intent and simple premise that where a claimant has a debt, the debt should be recoverable from them. In the majority of cases, overpayments of benefit, penalties, payments on account and certain hardship payments will be recoverable from the claimant and will be recovered by deduction from the benefit that is paid to them. As the Bill is drafted, however, the Secretary of State is prevented from recovering such payments where the claimant’s benefit is paid directly to a third party, for example a landlord. This means that recovery from a claimant is limited to deduction from those benefits paid directly to them. This is unintended and so this amendment seeks to ensure that where a claimant’s benefit that is subject to recovery is paid to a third party, recovery may be made from that benefit.
This ensures that the DWP maintains the same powers of recovery as it does presently for recovery by deduction from housing benefit where it is paid directly to a landlord. Although the claimant may have other benefits from which deductions could be made, to do so adds both cost and complexity to the recovery process. In such cases, where no benefit is payable other than that paid to the third party, the DWP would be reliant on negotiating repayment from non-benefit income or potentially using direct earnings attachments to recover from debtors who are in pay-as-you-earn employment.
The situation becomes even more difficult where the debtor will not negotiate repayment, has no benefits paid directly to them and is not in pay-as-you-earn employment. Without the amendment, this would result in a situation where the DWP or local authorities have no effective way to recover the overpayment or penalty. I am sure noble Lords will agree with me that where there is an obligation to repay benefit debt, the fullest possible powers should be available to the relevant authorities to make recovery by the most efficient means.
I shall now address Amendments 103ZZB, 103ZZC, 103ZZD, 103ZZE, 103ZA and 103ZZZA. These opposition amendments seek to achieve a number of objectives, but are primarily concerned with protecting debtors. I am sure that there is no disagreement over the need for safeguards for vulnerable claimants and those in financial difficulty. We recognise, like the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, that protection needs to extend to the calculation of overpayments as well as their recovery. In common with the noble Baroness, we recognise that such a provision has value in ensuring that an overpayment reflects the true loss of public funds and for this very reason, such a provision already exists in secondary legislation relating to the recovery of overpayments of current benefits.
Like the noble Baroness, we believe that similar provisions should apply here, but feel that such a provision sits more happily in secondary legislation. For that reason, I am happy to offer my assurances that it is our intention to make provision for such a calculation in the regulations to be made under Clause 102, new Section 71ZB(4), which allows regulations to provide that recoverable amounts,
“are to be calculated or estimated in a prescribed manner”.
Placing the provision in secondary legislation allows for both flexibility and review.
Concerning the other issues raised within these amendments, I believe that future overpayment recovery from working-age claimants will be more streamlined and efficient than it is presently. Recovery will thus provide both greater returns and better value for money for taxpayers. For example, under the previous Administration, it was believed that there was a right under common law to recover overpayments occurring due to official error, and the DWP thus requested repayment of those overpayments on that basis. I see that noble Lords who may have been responsible for those requests are in agreement. The Supreme Court, however, ruled that there was no such right and that is why we are legislating to bring the law for working-age benefits back in line with the policy of the previous administration—a policy that we support.
Prescribing that an overpayment caused by official error would not be recoverable if the claimant could not reasonably be expected to know that they were being overpaid brings forward a need to make subjective assessment of the debtor’s capacity to understand entitlement before the overpayment is determined. Although I sympathise with the lack of understanding of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, about all the incredible overpayments that she gets and the £1 million that goes into her bank account on a regular basis, I have to say that that is not workable in this context. The DWP will not be prescribing those circumstances for the discretionary write-off or non-recovery of an overpayment. Cases will be considered carefully on their individual merits because each case is different.
As mentioned earlier, the code of practice will outline the policy as to whether recovery should be pursued, and lead to considered, consistent decision making. in response to the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, I am happy to confirm that that will be published in the form of a leaflet.
Considering whether an overpayment can, or should be recovered, the DWP will look at a number of factors, not solely whether the claimant received the money in good faith. It will have regard to ensuring that deductions from benefit or earnings—
Baroness Meacher
Will the code of practice be available to us before Report so that we know whether we have a reasonable situation?
Lord Freud
Yes, I am pleased to confirm that it will be available in draft. I want to avoid the cost of printing up a leaflet.
We will ensure that deductions from benefit or earnings to repay an overpayment should not lead a debtor to suffer undue hardship. That remains a cornerstone of our overpayment recovery policy. As presently, future benefit recovery will be subject to regulations that provide for a maximum rate of recovery. In many instances, however, this maximum rate of recovery may still prove unaffordable for some claimants. In such cases, the DWP will discuss an alternative repayment rate.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
I realise that the Minister is going fast, but let us be quite clear. In the past, and I stand to be corrected, my understanding is that when there has been official error and overpayment we would request a repayment. If that request was not responded to or met, effectively, that was pretty much the end of the story. In particular, somebody with a history of disability, poor health, financial pressures and so forth, almost invariably would not reply.
We need to hear from the Minister whether he is moving from request to require; whether he is moving the discourse from the first to the second. I thought that the first was reasonable, so that if they could afford it, they should repay, but if it was unreasonable, then they did not. If he is going from request to require, we need another step in the procedures to try to ensure that those from whom he will require the repayment of debt are in a reasonable position to do so. He cannot just change the words. He has to institute another procedure and another step in the equation. I know that the Minister is going fast but perhaps he might reflect on this and write to us so that we can take this up later. That must be the case.
Lord Freud
I am going to come on to that point, which is critical. Although the starting point for overpayment recoverability will be that almost all overpayments of working-age benefits within the scope of Clause 102 will be recoverable upon application, DWP will consider a claimant’s means, income or expenditure if the debtor considers that they are in hardship.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
The point is that under the previous system the recipient determined what would happen. What the Minister is suggesting is that the DWP will determine whether recovery takes place.
Lord Freud
No. I think what I said is that if the debtor considers that they are in hardship, they can say that and then there is a process built on that.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
I am sorry to take up the Committee’s time, but previously if the recipient said that they were not going to do it, that ended it. There was not an assumption that there was space for negotiation. What the Minister seems to be suggesting is that there will be a requirement, and then the claimant has to opt out rather than the old arrangement, which is that if the recipient said that they were not in a position to repay, that ended the matter. It is a question of where the power lies. Under the old system, the power of refusal lay with the claimant. The Minister is suggesting that it will lie with the DWP, and only if the DWP is persuaded will the claimant be allowed to opt out.
Lord Freud
Yes, that is the process. It becomes a requirement, and then if the claimant says, “Look, I can’t afford that rate, I’m in hardship”, then it is adjusted. That is a regular process. In practice, only half the people now make repayments at the maximum rate. That is a very well established process which works pretty well, and I do not think we need to put in extra processes.
My noble friend Lord Kirkwood—Kirkwood of Kirkhope, some people were unaware—asked about an independent appeal right. There is just a general appeal right here for overpayments, and I think that covers this as much as anything else.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
Is that an appeal that is open to landlords as well?
Lord Freud
What we are talking about, and what I was describing, is where a payment would be going directly to a landlord, but it is for the rent. There would be recovery from that, so then the obligation becomes the debtor’s to replace that amount for the landlord, so, no, the landlord does not have a right to appeal because it is not his money. It is just a direct payment device.
As my noble friend recognised with his amendments, claimants may have other debts that are being repaid that will impact their ability to repay their DWP debt. In such an instance, we may agree that recovery should be suspended until a particular financial commitment of the debtor ends. Additionally, because we recognise that hardship need not solely be financial, these considerations will include whether recovery is likely to be a threat to the health and welfare of not only the debtor but their immediate family. Exceptionally, where it is warranted, DWP may decide not to pursue or to stop pursuing recovery. These hardship situations are well established and balance the needs of the debtor and those of the taxpayer. I believe that this approach is more effective than the prescriptive considerations set out in the amendments. This approach ensures that those claimants who are able to meet the repayment obligations do so and recognises that in some instances there is a need to take into account a claimant’s specific personal circumstances. I trust I have assured noble Lords that these amendments are unnecessary as we already have protections in place to ensure that a debtor does not suffer undue hardship when deductions from benefits or earnings are made and that, where appropriate, a claimant’s individual circumstances will be fully considered.
The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, asked about limits on universal credit recovery. Recovery will be subject to a maximum rate, as it is currently. This will differ depending on whether the payment is wholly universal credit or a combination of universal credit and earnings. We still have well established hardship considerations. If repayment causes difficulty in those circumstances, we will be able to discuss it. I therefore urge noble Lords not to press these amendments.
The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, has given notice of his intention to oppose the Question that Clause 105 stand part of the Bill. Clause 105 clarifies that the Limitation Act does not apply to the recovery of benefit overpayments and of social fund and tax credit debts by methods other than court action. It ensures that recovery of such debts by deduction from ongoing entitlement can continue beyond the six-year limitation period for bringing court action. DWP has long taken the view that the statute of limitations has no application to the recovery of benefit overpayments or social fund debts by means other than court action, including by deduction from continuing benefit entitlement.
However, in a 2009 case involving recovery of a housing benefit overpayment by a local authority the High Court came to a different view. DWP was not involved in that case, but given that it could be read as applying also to the recovery of other benefit overpayments and of social fund payments, we believe it is necessary to introduce this measure so that we remain able to balance the recovery of public funds against the financial circumstances of the debtor. In many cases, seeking to recover social security or tax credit debt by means of deduction in a period of no more than six years would place an unfair or impossible burden on the debtor and their family.
We are not proposing anything new; Clause 105 merely clarifies a long-standing and well accepted interpretation of the application of the Limitation Act limitation to the recovery of social security and tax credit debt. The provision ensures that all deductions of benefit made more than six years after the debt became due since Section 9 of the Limitation Act came into force were, or will be deemed to be, legitimately made. It is retrospective to cover the legality of recoveries of six years of debt already made under the presumption that that was the legal position.
By contrast, without this clause—Egyptian calligraphy is very complicated—we may be forced to endeavour to recover all overpayments within six years, and this would imply higher recovery rates and potentially hardship for claimants affected. We have made this measure retrospective to cover all recoveries already made, as I have already said. I hope this clarification will convince the noble Lord and the noble Baroness to allow Clause 105 to stand part of the Bill. I beg to move.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
My Lords, I will be very brief. I thank the various noble Lords who have contributed and really strengthened the case that was made. Readers of the Official Report may not be able to tell a joke when they see it—my noble friend was not supporting monthly payments, and we will be coming back to that on Report.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
I am very glad that the noble Lord has put on record that the question about underlying entitlement will be covered in the regulations. I am sorry that he is not prepared to put into statute the protection of claimants where it is the department that has made the mistake, not the individual. I am unhappy with so much discretion, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, made that point. I am very pleased that the code of practice will be published in the form of a leaflet and that noble Lords will be able to see it before Report. I welcome that, and I welcome what I think the Minister said that there would the general right of appeal on overpayment questions. It is good to have that on the record. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Freud
Lord De Mauley
My Lords, this might be a convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until Monday at 3.30 pm.
House of Lords
Lockerbie
(13 years ago)
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Lord Selkirk of Douglas
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will continue to make representations to the National Transitional Council of Libya to make available any evidence in their possession concerning the attack on Pan Am flight 103 over Lockerbie in 1988 to the Lord Advocate and the Scottish police to assist their investigation.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)
My Lords, the Government will continue to support the Dumfries and Galloway Constabulary’s investigation into the Lockerbie bombing. We will approach Libya’s newly formed transitional Government about getting the Dumfries and Galloway police back to Libya at the earliest opportunity to take forward their investigations. The National Transitional Council chairman, Abdul Jalil, has assured my right honourable friend the Prime Minister that the new Libyan authorities will co-operate with the UK on this and other ongoing investigations.
Lord Selkirk of Douglas
While I welcome the Minister’s statement, does he believe that the recent capture of Colonel Gaddafi’s intelligence chief, Abdullah al-Senussi, and of the intelligence archives in Tripoli, may finally provide the vital information that would assist the Lord Advocate with his ongoing inquiries? I ask this question as one of the two former Ministers who were at the crime scene within a few hours and who met some of the relatives shortly afterwards. In order to bring closure to the families of 270 victims, is it not highly desirable that they should learn from any new evidence exactly what happened 23 years ago, and precisely what the background was to this monstrous crime?
Lord Howell of Guildford
Yes, it is desirable and yes, indeed, it was the most monstrous crime. We are seeking confirmation from the Libyan Government regarding the reported detention of Abdullah al-Senussi. We have been clear that no effort should be spared in bringing him to justice. Al-Senussi’s arrest, if confirmed, would offer an opportunity to uncover the truth behind some of the former regime’s dreadful crimes. As I just said, the Government will continue to support the Dumfries and Galloway Constabulary’s investigation into the bombing. We would want any new evidence to be made available to it and indeed to the Lord Advocate. I am confident that the new Libyan Government will act in accordance with Chairman Jalil’s commitment to co-operate with the UK on this and other investigations, and bring closure to the concerns and misery of the families of the victims.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
My Lords, would my noble friend agree that it would also shed light on this matter if the report of the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission were published in full, so far as is possible?
Lord Howell of Guildford
Of course, there has been the report of Sir Gus O’Donnell. It has been placed in the Library and it was fully discussed when it was produced some weeks ago. Further light needs to be shed on this and I am confident that, with the full assistance of the new Libyan Government, we will get the papers and the evidence to show exactly what was said and by whom.
Lord Empey
My Lords, can the Minister tell us that in addition to pursuing the issue of Lockerbie, the Government will rigorously and vigorously pursue the issue of compensation for all UK victims who were damaged by weapons supplied to the IRA by the Gaddafi regime and that the Government themselves will lead those negotiations rather than leaving them to third parties?
Lord Howell of Guildford
At present we are looking at all possible options with the Libyan Government to get a resolution on the legacy issues, including this one, which is certainly a very high priority. It is very early days for the new Libyan Government as they have only just been appointed, but we want to see a broad proposal for embracing questions of compensation, reconciliation and, indeed, investment in Northern Ireland. We are trying to develop a broad approach with, and led by, the Libyan Government.
Lord Elystan-Morgan
My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is utterly natural and inevitable that parliaments the world over should seek to have as much light as possible cast upon the perpetrators of the Lockerbie bombing? However, technically speaking, a request should be made formally by the Scottish Parliament themselves—bearing in mind, of course, the transfer of jurisdiction in relation to that. As for this Parliament, could the same principle not also apply to casting light upon those who were responsible for the murder of WPC Yvonne Fletcher?
Lord Howell of Guildford
On the second point about WPC Yvonne Fletcher, that is most certainly so. We are in touch with the Metropolitan Police about reopening their investigations into the perpetrators of that hideous crime. On the former question, the decision was made by the devolved Scottish Government and it is a matter for them to pursue. We have indicated that the Government in London will give full assistance to the devolved Government in pursuing their inquiries.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, can the noble Lord inform us about the state of health of Mr Al Megrahi, who was released by the Scottish authorities on the grounds that he had only six months to live?
Lord Howell of Guildford
We have passed a request from the devolved Administration to the Libyan chargé d’affaires in London asking that the supervision arrangements of Al Megrahi’s licence are observed. Part of the investigation by the Dumfries and Galloway police will also embrace the question of his condition, but we are awaiting the precise details of his health from the Libyan Government now.
Lord Selkirk of Douglas
Does the Minister accept that the Lord Advocate has put in a formal request to the National Transitional Council and that a statement has been issued by the Crown Office to the effect that the trial court of Mr Al Megrahi accepted that he did not act alone?
Lord Howell of Guildford
I am not sure that I can comment on my noble friend’s second point, but it is certainly correct that the Lord Advocate has put in a formal request, and indeed has made that absolutely clear to my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary. We are collaborating closely on this.
Health: Flu Vaccine Research
(13 years ago)
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Baroness Knight of Collingtree
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they propose to fund research into more effective flu vaccines, in the light of the recent report in The Lancet.
Earl Howe
My Lords, research on the development of new flu vaccines is being actively carried out by academic departments in universities, biotechnology companies and vaccine manufacturers. There are number of improved vaccines in the final stages of development and licensed products may become available over the next few years. The department does not fund the development of new vaccines, but does support some work on basic research and research to inform policy in this area.
Baroness Knight of Collingtree
My Lords, did the Lancet report not warn that the currently used vaccine is effective for only six out of 10 of the persons receiving it, and that the virus can actually change to outwit that vaccine? Has my noble friend studied a more recent report from the chief virologist at Barts and the Royal Hospital about a new vaccine which not only gives lifelong protection in only one jab but also overrides the virus changes? Would it not be a real boon for patients if this were looked at more carefully, and perhaps brought in? It would save a lot of money for the NHS.
Earl Howe
My noble friend is extremely well informed. I have not seen the report that she mentioned. The only licensed vaccines currently supplied to the UK are inactivated trivalent influenza vaccines, but it is expected that within the next few years others will become available, including a live attenuated trivalent intranasal vaccine next year. In the future, an adjuvanted vaccine and a quadrivalent vaccine may also become available. The JCVI—the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation—has looked at some of these new vaccines and believes that they present exciting prospects for greater efficacy.
Lord Patel
Does the Minister agree that it is currently the task of the Health Protection Agency to track these infections globally and to do research to make sure that we are prepared if there is a pandemic of a different flu virus? Does he therefore agree that any proposals that lead to the Health Protection Agency—which is recognised worldwide for research and expertise —not being allowed to carry out research as it currently does are flawed?
Earl Howe
My Lords, we are very clear that the Health Protection Agency performs a major public service and we have no intention of disrupting the work that it does, least of all by interfering with its research. As the noble Lord knows, the proposals are to shift the Health Protection Agency into the new, larger government agency, Public Health England. The World Health Organisation is actually the body that monitors the strains of flu worldwide and issues twice-yearly warnings to countries about the strains that are emerging so that countries can prepare for their forthcoming winter flu season.
Baroness Wall of New Barnet
My Lords, does the noble Earl agree with me that—despite the view of the noble Baroness, Lady Knight, about the Lancet report, which I have read—there is still an important need for people who work in the health service to have the current vaccine? It is not taken up by everybody, despite many trusts trying to ensure that everybody does take it up. Is there a stronger message that could go out from the Government that it is really important to do this? Forcing people is perhaps too much, but certainly it is a real issue.
Earl Howe
The noble Baroness is quite right. The Chief Medical Officer wrote to the NHS on 25 May, citing four studies that provide strong evidence of the benefit of influenza vaccination for front-line healthcare workers. These studies show clearly that healthcare workers can transmit influenza to patients, that vaccination of healthcare workers can prevent that transmission and that vaccination of healthcare workers can lead to better health outcomes in the vulnerable patients with whom they very often deal.
Baroness Jolly
My Lords, can my noble friend confirm that there is a problem with supplying the H1N1 vaccine? If that is the case, how is it proposed to target it more effectively and what steps will be taken to make sure that vulnerable people are targeted first?
Earl Howe
My Lords, there were supply problems last winter, but my advice is that there are none this winter. Indeed, the quantity of vaccine that has been ordered for this winter’s anticipated flu outbreak is considerably larger than was the case last year. The Government also have a reserve stock of vaccine to be deployed in the event of local shortages.
Baroness Thornton
My Lords, the recently published Department of Health report on winter preparedness says that by the end of the 2010 flu vaccine season, only about 50 per cent of those under 65 years old in the clinical risk groups had been vaccinated. The Chief Medical Officer states that we need to,
“ reach or exceed 75% uptake”,
of this group and for pregnant women. Unlike Scotland and Northern Ireland, I understand that this year there will be no advertising campaign in England to raise awareness of the importance of flu jabs. Will the Minister rethink this policy to ensure that this target is achieved?
Earl Howe
My Lords, the difficulty with advertising is that there is no evidence either way as to whether an advertising campaign has an impact on vaccine uptake, although there is no doubt that it has an impact on vaccine awareness. Without a marketing campaign last year, it was notable that the flu vaccine uptake was very similar to that achieved in previous years. We believe that the best way to access those who are at risk is through GPs. We know that from surveys that ask patients what has prompted them to get vaccination.
Lord MacKenzie of Culkein
My Lords, has the Minister seen reports in the nursing press that student nurses are being denied the influenza vaccine, despite advice to the contrary from the Chief Medical Officer? Can he comment on that and see whether something can be done about it?
Earl Howe
My Lords, although student nurses are not technically employees, as the noble Lord will know, they will be working for a particular NHS trust, with that trust’s patients, and it is therefore the trust’s responsibility to consider the safety of the student nurse and indeed the patients that they care for. If student nurses are going to be carrying out front-line work, particularly with vulnerable patients, then the trust should follow the advice we have issued on healthcare workers generally.
Education and Skills Act 2008
(13 years ago)
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Baroness Walmsley
To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they plan to commence the duty on school governing bodies to invite and consider pupils’ views, introduced through section 157 of the Education and Skills Act 2008.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford)
My Lords, the commencement of Section 157 of the Education and Skills Act 2008 is under review. Section 176 of the Education Act 2002 already requires schools to have regard to statutory guidance on consulting pupils, and remains on the statute book. We are revising the guidance published under Section 176 and have been working closely with a wide range of interested parties, including children’s charities, in its development.
Baroness Walmsley
I thank my noble friend the Minister for that reply. As we move towards the celebrations of the 20th anniversary of the UK ratifying the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child on 16 December, it is very important that that guidance is consulted on and is very clear to schools. Can my noble friend say when that guidance will actually be published, so that people can be quite clear about how schools should go about implementing the UN convention, in particular, article 12, which is about the child having a right to have his or her voice heard and opinions taken seriously on any matters affecting him or her?
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, I agree with my noble friend about the importance of the guidance and it being clear and intelligible. I am not able to give a specific date today as to precisely when we will be publishing that. I fall back on the normal formulation of “soon”. I know how much the issue matters to my noble friend and I will make her point and point out the arrival of the anniversary to my honourable friend in the department.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, will the Minister agree that, by becoming a school governor and making an important contribution to their school’s well-being, pupils can gain early experience of citizenship that will be so important later in life, so this will be a really important step in the right direction? Can he please encourage his fellow Ministers to encourage all those who are going to make that decision in future?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I agree about the advantages and benefits that could come from schools involving their pupils in decisions affecting them and the school. No one will know better than the noble Baroness the extent to which that happens, given the large number of schools—I think 95 per cent of schools—that have school councils. Many governing bodies have pupils as associate members. I know the noble Baroness would like to go further and faster on that, and we had a good debate about it during the Education Bill. I agree with her in that, where schools want to find ways of involving and encouraging children, I would very much support that. Where the Government and the noble Baroness parted company during the Education Bill was over making that a requirement and compulsory in both primary and secondary schools. However, the principle of involving children is an important one.
Lord Tebbit
My Lords, would my noble friend like to consider that, as we have had more and more of this sort of guff promoted through the education system, the standards of education, knowledge and discipline of children at school have steadily fallen. Would it not be a good idea to get back to the idea that teachers teach, pupils learn and that one has to learn to take orders before one can give orders?
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, if my noble friend had been able to sit in on some of our extremely lengthy deliberations on the Education Bill, particularly as we ground through Committee in the Moses Room, where all those present were extremely resilient in the hours they put into debating it, he would know that a significant part of the current Education Bill has precisely the sort of measure that he would welcome—giving greater authority to teachers to teach. We all know that orderly environments are environments where children are safer, and environments in which children are safer are those where they can learn better. Therefore, I completely accept the need for an orderly environment. What I do not accept is that there is necessarily an either/or between looking after the interests of children and wanting to make sure that they learn in an orderly environment. It is possible to do both.
Baroness Hughes of Stretford
My Lords, at Third Reading the Minister told us that he estimates about 95 per cent of schools have a school council or some form of consultation process for pupils. That means that, despite the guidance he referred to, for pupils at more than 1,000 schools there is no such forum that we know about. Contrary to the view expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, does the Minister agree that engaging with pupils is not only good practice for the schools, but also encourages responsibility and active citizenship among the pupils? Therefore, in addition to the guidance, what do the Government intend to do to ensure that all schools have some appropriate consultation and active participation mechanisms for students?
Lord Hill of Oareford
In all these things, one needs to strike a balance between seeking to move in the direction of involving children and being overly prescriptive in the ways one goes about doing it. We think the balance is about right in terms of the degree of guidance that we give and the way that schools are responding. One of the other developments, which will probably not be welcomed by my noble friend Lord Tebbit, is that the Government have said that they are looking at ways of strengthening the role of the office of the Children's Commissioner, and are thereby looking at making sure that children’s rights as set out under the UN convention would be enforced.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
My Lords, I congratulate the Minister on saying that the Children's Commissioner is going to be given greater powers. That is an extremely important advance, of which many Members of this House would very much approve. Taking up what the noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, said, would the Minister agree that for children to have their views heard does not mean that children are giving orders?
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, I am afraid that I got lost as to whether I am supposed to give a negative or positive reply to the question. It is absolutely the case that for children’s views to be heard we need to have orderly and disciplined environments in schools. It is extremely important to emphasise that point; it is the case, over quite a long period of time, that there has been a balance towards treating adults more like children and children more like adults. I would quite like the balance to shift back towards treating adults more like adults and looking after children and treating children like children, to give them the care and support they need. Then they can grow up and flourish.
Colombia
(13 years ago)
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Baroness Coussins
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether their discussions with the President of Colombia during his visit will include the subject of monitoring the human rights and environmental impacts of British and multinational corporations engaged in mining activities in Colombia.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)
My Lords, discussions covered a range of issues, including human rights. We agreed a joint declaration on human rights. We held a “green growth” event, in which we discussed the importance of environmental impact assessments for the mining industry. Our embassy in Colombia was a founding member of the Colombian Mining and Energy Committee, which includes government, industry and civil society observers. It looks at compliance with the voluntary principles on security and human rights.
Baroness Coussins
My Lords, what advice do the Government provide for British companies operating in Colombia to help them to comply with the ILO Convention No. 169, which gives indigenous populations the right to free and informed consent to projects that will affect them? There have been disturbing reports of companies that wish to exploit indigenous lands by colluding with misinformation campaigns and forced mass displacement. Can the Minister assure the House that no British companies are involved in such activities and, instead, that they are encouraged to help the new Colombian Government to deliver on their commitments to human rights?
Lord Howell of Guildford
I can assure the noble Baroness that the embassy meets regularly with representatives of indigenous communities and discusses these things. More specifically, as with other embassies, we encourage and expect British companies to respect human rights in the places where they do business. Both the UKTI and the Bogota embassy provide advice, including on prior consultation, for British companies to ensure that this happens. The embassy also has monitored very closely two particular companies where there were concerns, and I could certainly inform the noble Baroness, if she so wishes, at any time on the details of how they got on. But the answer broadly is that, yes, this is the way we wish to move and, although there are British interests in some of these companies, they have been under very close monitoring and pressure and there has been some improvement.
Lord Avebury
Is my noble friend aware that the UN special rapporteur on indigenous peoples said on 31 October at the Peace Brigades International conference in London that it was important to assist indigenous peoples to build their capacity for negotiation? Would DfID consider funding the training of indigenous peoples in Colombia to develop their skills and knowledge so they can negotiate effectively with political authorities and multinational companies so as to produce development agreements that protect and advance their interests?
Lord Howell of Guildford
As I just told the noble Baroness, officials in our embassy meet regularly with indigenous and Afro-Colombian communities. Additionally, the embassy is funding a project in Colombia aimed at developing the role of organisations in protecting the rights to the territories. We are also providing technical assistance to the Colombian Government to work towards effective implementation of the new land and victims law, which aims to return land to huge numbers of displaced people and compensate victims. We are also funding projects to support access to justice and protection of human rights defenders, and we will continue to provide support for the Colombian Government wherever possible.
Lord Judd
Is it not the case that in situations like Colombia the absence of human rights leads to further instability and alienation and that it is absolutely essential, not only in Colombia but across the world and, indeed, within the United Kingdom itself, to recognise that stability and security require people to be able to fulfil their potential in a situation founded on the belief in and conviction of human rights?
Lord Howell of Guildford
The noble Lord, who has campaigned endlessly and bravely in these many areas, is absolutely right; human rights and human responsibilities—closely associated with the necessary degree of trust and investment—produce higher living standards. The whole package goes together nowadays in this increasingly transparent world; it cannot be avoided. Governments around the world will have to face it. We shall do our best here, both to face our own conditions and indeed to encourage others.
Baroness Hooper
My Lords, would my noble friend the Minister not agree that the President and his Foreign Secretary, by coming to Parliament to meet and talk with parliamentarians, as he did on Monday, and by meeting NGOs and lobby groups specifically about human rights, as he did yesterday, demonstrated a willingness to listen and to take action to remedy the inheritance and consequences of violence, terrorism and drug trafficking that have overshadowed his country in recent years? Should we not now concentrate on improving our trade and cultural links with Colombia in order to improve the lot of the people and help them to return to normal relations with the rest of the world?
Lord Howell of Guildford
Yes, President Santos has just had a very successful visit here, and my noble friend is quite right that he has an active reform agenda, which he has carried forward with vigour, and which is moving his country to what some people call a “new Colombia”. It is certainly a very dynamic country, one with increasing trade and linkages with this country, and one that we are determined to befriend and support in its reform phase. So yes, President Santos has acted with vigour on the human rights front and is carrying forward changes that were undoubtedly needed.
Lord Stern of Brentford
My Lords, would the Minister agree that conflict and insecurity are deeply damaging for both human rights and environmental protection, and that the level of conflict and insecurity in Colombia over the past 10 years has been dramatically lower than in the preceding 40 or 50? Would he also allow me to observe that President Santos is an alumnus of the LSE? I chaired his presentation to the LSE yesterday and these questions of human rights and environmental protection were discussed very frankly and directly.
Lord Howell of Guildford
Yes, I certainly allow the noble Lord to observe that valid and very constructive point; it is certainly so. It is also, of course, a fact that the revolutionary guerrilla movement, the so-called FARC, has grown weaker over the years. Indeed, noble Lords will have read the reports only a few weeks ago about the killing, finally, of the terrorist leader Alfonso Cano. The FARC operation goes on, but in a much reduced way, hidden away in the mountains, and President Santos has been the first to point out that its aims are pointless, and that it should come to peace and negotiation and have its grievances properly and democratically aired. He is taking a lead in, as I say, a new Colombia.
Legal Services Act 2007 (Appeals from Licensing Authority Decisions) (No. 2) Order 2011
(13 years ago)
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Lord McNally
That the draft orders laid before the House on 15 September and 17 October be approved.
Relevant documents: 29th and 30th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 15 November.
Rehabilitation of Offenders (Amendment) Bill [HL]
Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Bill
(13 years ago)
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Lord Henley
The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley)
My Lords, in moving Amendment 1, I shall speak to Amendments 2, 3, and 4, which are also in my name. I can give an assurance to the House that those are the only amendments on the Marshalled List. These are a small number of necessary technical amendments to the Bill, which fulfil commitments I gave at Report stage in relation to the transitional period. I shall briefly explain why we need to make these amendments.
Amendment 1 is consequential to the amendment that was passed at Report to the reporting measure in paragraph 10 of Schedule 1. Paragraph 10, as amended, provides that in addition to requiring the individual to report to a police station at specified times and in a specified manner, the Secretary of State may require the individual to comply with directions given by a police constable in relation to such reporting. This technical amendment is necessary to ensure that the definition of “TPIM decision” in Clause 17(3) includes a direction given by a constable in relation to a reporting measure.
Government Amendment 2 is, again, consequential to an amendment that was made to Schedule 1 at Report. Paragraph 1, as amended, provides that an individual subject to an overnight residence measure may be required to remain at, or within, their residence. This technical amendment makes an equivalent change in relation to a residence measure imposed on a person subject to an enhanced TPIM notice, imposed by virtue of a temporary enhanced TPIM order made under Clause 26 of the Bill.
Government Amendment 3, again, is necessary in consequence of an amendment made at Report. That amendment made it clear that an individual subject to a reporting measure under paragraph 10 may be required to comply with directions given by the police in relation to reporting. However, it introduced a small drafting inconsistency as it referred to directions given by a police officer rather than a constable, which is the term used elsewhere in the Bill. The two terms are intended to have the same meaning and the purpose of this amendment is to remove the inconsistency by substituting “constable” for “police officer”.
The final amendment, Amendment 4, returns to an issue on which I made an undertaking at Report. It will extend the transitional period provided by the Bill from 28 to 42 days. This is the period, following the coming into force of the Bill, during which the control orders in force immediately before commencement of the Bill will remain in force unless revoked or quashed before the end of that period. It is intended to ensure that there can be a safe, orderly and managed transition from the old to the new system. As the Government have consistently made clear, the police have confirmed that extensive preparations are being made and that arrangements will be in place effectively to manage the move from the control order system to the TPIM system. However, as I made clear at Report, we have received advice from the police that as the transitional period will fall over Christmas and new year, a small extension to that period is necessary. This will assist the effective management of the process of transition over the holiday period. I beg to move.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I am sure that we are all grateful to the noble Lord for bringing forward his first three amendments. However, I want to raise a couple of points in relation to Amendment 4. Essentially, it is to put a straightforward question to the noble Lord as to whether the 42 days that his amendment would now give for the transition period is sufficient. I do so in view of reports today that senior police officers believe that they are not fully prepared for the introduction of the new law to replace control orders.
During the passage of this Bill, we have had quite a number of debates about the principle of control orders and I do not seek to open up that question, as the House’s view is very clear on that matter. I have always recognised that the use of control orders should be a last option because they impose intrusive restrictions on individuals who in most cases will not have been convicted of a terrorism offence. But the fact is that their use was endorsed by the senior police officer who gave evidence to the Public Bill Committee in the other place. Twice in the past few months the Home Secretary has argued, first in the case of CD and then in the case of BM, that the use of control orders, particularly the relocation measures, was necessary.
The Government are saying that we can move on from the use of these control orders because alternative measures that are either in the Bill or will be put in place alongside the Bill, including much greater surveillance, will provide the reassurance that is required. That is a big ask of the police and security services. It is surely significant that the senior representative of the Metropolitan Police, in evidence to the Public Bill Committee, said earlier this year:
“To get the resources that we anticipate we need will take more than a year, in terms of being able to get people trained and to get the right equipment”.—[Official Report, Commons, Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Bill Committee, 21/6/11; col. 9.]
It is fair to ask the Minister whether the police and security services are now completely satisfied that they are now able to provide the additional surveillance and other measures that would allow control orders, particularly the exclusion measures contained within the current legislation, to move into abeyance as a result of the Bill. The fact that the Minister is appearing before us today to increase the transition period from 28 days to 42 days is not without significance, and of course was done on the advice of the police and security forces.
The question before us and the Government is whether a two-week extension is sufficient. Given all the challenges that we face in the area of security and potential terrorism, and given the Olympic Games, I ask the Minister—I am sure that this will be raised in the other place when the Bill goes back there—whether, even at this late stage, we ought not to consider giving the police and security services some more time in order to ensure that sufficient resources, people and training are indeed in place.
The reports this morning appear to suggest that there are senior officers who do not believe that they are sufficiently ready. I ask the Minister to comment on that. Can he give me some assurance that the security of our country is not being put at risk? Again I ask: would the Government not be better advised, before the Bill goes back to the other place, to legislate for the option of keeping control orders until we are certain and confident that the surveillance measures are fully in place and that sufficient officers are appointed and trained to do the job that they will be required to do?
Lord Lloyd of Berwick
My Lords, I find myself unable to support the argument that has been put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. Indeed, it seems to be very much a repetition, on a rather smaller scale, of an argument that we heard over and over again on Report, all based on the views of one particular senior police officer. I for my part am completely satisfied with the view that has been taken by the Government. My general view is that the sooner we get rid of the old legislation, the better.
I have one other problem, which I do not know whether the Minister will be able to answer. It turns on paragraph 2 of Schedule 8 combined with paragraph 7 of Schedule 8. As I understand it, paragraph 2 provides that the old law will continue to apply to those who are currently under control orders. Paragraph 8 says that that will be so even though the 2005 Act would have expired, quite apart from this Bill repealing it. Is that the position? If so, when do the new provisions begin to apply to those who are currently under control orders? Every controlee will ask himself, “Have I been affected by this Bill or not?”. In particular, he will ask himself when the two-year period under Clause 5 starts in his case. It seems that the control order will continue to apply, but it cannot be kept in place indefinitely under the provisions of an Act that we have repealed.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, like the noble and learned Lord, I have made it clear that the sooner control orders end the better. Will the Minister confirm that the extension to 42 days is not a matter of giving the police another two weeks to get their arrangements in order but because it became clear that the period of commencement would be within the Christmas and new year holiday period, which was not wholly convenient? Forty-two days would take the period into the new year as a matter of convenience. That is what I understood to be the explanation when we heard about this last week.
Lord Henley
My Lords, I shall start with the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath. As always, my first advice to him would be not to believe everything that he reads in the papers. Having said that, I am grateful to him for raising the point. It is very important and it gives me the opportunity to explain why we are doing this. I set out what is behind Amendment 4 when I dealt with that.
My noble friend Lady Hamwee asked whether we were extending the detention period to 42 days just because the police asked for it or because the police asked for it because it was over Christmas and new year. I can assure her that that was the point that the police made to us: things will be slightly harder if this happens then than they would be if it happened on some other occasion.
The police service has worked very closely with both the Security Service and the Home Office throughout the legislative process to ensure that all the plans and preparations that are being made are tailored to the Bill in the appropriate manner and to ensure that everything is as it should be. The Metropolitan Police has also confirmed to the Home Secretary that it has put in place arrangements to manage that transition from control orders to TPIMs. Indeed, the Home Secretary received detailed briefing as recently as Monday from the Metropolitan Police on the transitional plans that had been drawn up. The Home Secretary is fully aware of what is going on. As I made clear on Report, we recently received advice from the Metropolitan Police that, in reviewing its plans as they were being developed, the extension of that period over Christmas and new year from 28 days to 42 days would be required to ensure that the necessary arrangements could be put in place. It is simply a safeguard to ensure that smooth transition.
In relation to paragraph 2 of Schedule 8, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, asked whether the controlees themselves would ask questions about how they were being affected. I would prefer to write to the noble and learned Lord, if I may, to make sure that I get that absolutely right.
I end by giving an absolute assurance to the noble and learned Lord, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, and the entire House that all we are doing is absolutely necessary. Whatever happens, we will not put the security of the country at risk. We have taken advice from the police and the security services on this matter. It was suggested that we should make this extension from 28 days to 42 days. That is what we are doing.
Lord Henley
Lord Henley
Lord Henley
Public Bodies Bill [HL]
(13 years ago)
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17:43 - Division on Amendment 49C - Ayes: 233 / Noes: 236 - Amendment 49C disagreed.
17:59 - Division on Amendment 50A. - Ayes: 197 / Noes: 239 - Amendment 50A disagreed.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 1 to 46.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, this Bill has already been on a long journey, and has changed a great deal during that journey. Since its Second Reading in this House in November last year, it has been subjected to rigorous challenge and scrutiny through Committee and Report before being sent to the Commons.
The Government listened carefully and adjusted the proposals in the Bill. We continued to consult, listen and adjust as it moved through the Commons. Most of the amendments to which I am speaking were introduced by the Government in the Commons as part of the continuing process of scrutiny and modification. It is a pleasure to follow in the footsteps of my noble friend Lord Taylor, who did such an excellent and widely praised job of negotiating this Bill through its earlier stages in this House.
The Public Bodies Bill was notable during its time in this House not least for such contentious issues as Schedule 7 and the provisions on forests. However, it can and should be remembered as an outstanding example of the way in which the breadth and depth of experience in your Lordships’ House was used to improve a piece of legislation. I appreciate that this is a large group of amendments and that many noble Lords will be keen to move on to debate other issues in the Bill, and I will therefore set out as succinctly as I can the issues in these 46 amendments.
Amendments 1, 30, 31, 35 add co-operative and community benefit societies, as well as charitable incorporated organisations, to the definition of “eligible person” to which the functions or property of a body or officeholder can be transferred under the general order-making powers of the Bill. These amendments were welcomed by all sides in the Commons. I hope that they will also be welcomed here.
Amendments 2 and 3 require Ministers to secure Treasury consent before making an order that modifies an existing funding arrangement. This is in accordance with normal practice across the whole range of government.
Amendments 5 and 14 provide for there to be no requirement for a Minister or Welsh Minister to consult a body or office that is defunct. This does not exempt the Government from the need to consult—that is, to consult persons whom the Minister considers to be substantially affected and persons deemed to be appropriate—because the rest of the provisions in Clause 10 and 19 continue to apply. These amendments simply allow the Minister to lay a draft order without having to attempt to consult a body that has no members.
Amendment 21 adds stamp duty land tax to the list of relevant taxes in Clause 26. That clause limits the taxes that can be varied under the Bill to a list of relevant taxes. Stamp duty land tax was previously excluded from the list because there is an existing stamp duty tax relief for statutory reorganisations involving public bodies included in Section 66 of the Finance Act 2003. However, this relief does not cater for transfers to a non-statutory body for consideration. Stamp duty land tax should therefore now be included within the list of relevant taxes because there is a possibility that some transfer schemes will include land transactions falling outside the current stamp duty relief.
Baroness Quin
My Lords, given that the Minister referred to the amendment on regional development agencies, perhaps I could raise a point in relation to them. I am very disappointed that the Government did not change their mind on their approach to regional development agencies, particularly in my home region of the north-east where there has been strong support for an agency over a long period of time. Indeed, a former member of this House, Lord Burlison, to whom I pay tribute, was very active in setting up a home-grown regional development agency there before it was sanctioned by government. That shows the longevity of this issue in our region.
One area where the regional development agency was active was in supporting applications for European funding for regional projects in regions such as mine. It is not clear who will take over that role. A great deal of money is going begging at the moment. Given that we are in a time of financial stringency, it seems quite wrong that in an area such as the north-east, which has high unemployment, regional projects are not going ahead because no advice is available to bodies applying for regional funds, and nor are there matching funds. This very important issue is gaining prominence in the region. I would be grateful if the Minister would at least address it in his reply.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, this is an extraordinarily different Bill—as the Minister said—from the one that was published. Frankly, it was then an appalling Bill, with its unprecedented number of Henry VIII powers and with profound and chilling implications for many organisations that carry out public functions. I contrast the Bill as it was—the so-called cull of the quangos—with the proliferation of quangos, including the biggest quango in the world, that we will see as a result of the Health and Social Security Bill that is before us at present. Noble Lords applied themselves to the Bill in the best way that this House does, in a very impressive example of the House enacting its role in our legislative process properly and fully. As a result of the changes that this House made, including the removal of Schedule 7 and of those clauses that would have enabled the sale of the public forestry estate, the Bill left this Chamber a much improved piece of work—not with all the changes that we on these Benches would have liked, but much improved.
In part that was because the Government, and especially the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, responded properly and appropriately to the concerns expressed by the House and by many people and organisations outside it. Further changes were made in the Commons—hence the number of amendments under consideration today—and I am pleased to say that we on these Benches warmly welcome Amendment 1, moved by the Minister. We also welcome the amendments relating to S4C, and some others. However, like my noble friend Lady Quin, I am deeply unhappy about the amendments relating to the RDAs. Their inclusion in the Bill encapsulates the topsy-turvy legislative process that the Government seemed bent on pursuing earlier in the Session. The saga of the abolition of the RDAs was a disgrace—a prime example of pre-legislative implementation that has had a profound and a negative impact on some regions, for example the north-east and the West Midlands. It is clear that not all RDAs were working as well as they should have been—but why abolish all of them just because one or two needed improvement?
Having said that, we will not vote against the amendments because we recognise that it is the end of the road, notwithstanding the paucity—or perhaps complete lack—of consultation on the issue, and the fact that there was extraordinary pre-legislative implementation of the abolition of RDAs, which we deeply regret. I hope that the Government will not pursue such policies in future but will seek to ensure that they legislate before they implement.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart
My Lords, I join my noble friend in expressing appreciation of the way in which our colleague and noble friend Lord Taylor of Holbeach handled this Bill at an earlier stage. His careful consideration of the points that this House was making has considerably enhanced its quality. I do not dissent from the view that the Bill was ill-considered when it first reached us. Indeed, it is an exemplification of the point made by a number of committees of this House on the necessity for pre-legislative scrutiny in matters of such importance.
A change that is particularly welcome is the nature of the scrutiny of the orders that will be brought forward in secondary legislation in consequence of the Bill. I am happy to see that that has remained, enabling further consideration to be given to some of the particular proposals. I am also glad that the Government have given further thought to the future of S4C and have included in the Bill a duty requiring the Secretary of State to ensure that sufficient funding is available. There was widespread concern in Wales that the original proposal would result in a serious contraction of Welsh language broadcasting. It is to be hoped that this change, which I gather has been welcomed all round, will remove that anxiety.
The RDAs were a particularly remarkable happening which, like the changes, were introduced even before the legislation was before the House. It is too late to cry over that spilt milk, but it may be said that the work done by the RDAs, including scrutiny of the European Union regional development funding and where it should be directed, must be done with effectiveness. I hope that the new arrangements for that will be reported with openness and frequency to enable Parliament to consider how successful those changes have been. On the face of it, they were rather remarkable changes to have been made without much prior consultation. What happens to European funding in particular is not a matter that is considered only by us, but will be considered by European Union institutions to see whether the money has been properly spent.
This House has proved its effectiveness and capability, its broadness of vision and its particular knowledge in preparing to tackle some of the outstanding problems that the Bill generated. I cannot think of legislation that has been given more careful or extensive attention that the one before us today. That it was worth while is manifested by the amendments that my noble friend has announced, and which were broadly approved in another place, and which by and large—indeed, almost universally—are to be welcomed. I hope, however, that such legislation will never be introduced again so soon after a general election, bouncing Parliament into decisions of such fundamental importance over such a broad spectrum of our national life.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
My Lords, I would like to underline what my noble friend has said about Sianel Pedwar Cymru. It has caused considerable delight in Wales that the Welsh authority will now have the funding from the Government without compromising the status and editorial independence of the channel, which gives so much entertainment in Wales.
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, could I ask the Minister to explain further the purpose of Amendment 55, which adds Dover Harbour Board to Schedule 5? It is a bit extraordinary to include one port from among 120 or so in this country, most of which are trust ports. I declare an interest as a commissioner of a trust port in Cornwall. Why add one port to a list including the Environment Agency, British Waterways Board and all these other bodies that we have debated, on the basis that the local MP thought that it was a good idea? Is this a precedent for local MPs around the country to come up with ideas for privatisation or mutualisation of their ports, and to come before the Ministers saying “Let us add this to the list and have fun”? As the Minister said, there is a perfectly good route for privatisation of ports in the Ports Act 1991. I would be grateful if he could explain the purpose behind this amendment.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Royall of Blaisdon, for her kind words about the way in which the Government have dealt with this Bill. Unavoidably, a commitment to prune the proliferation of public bodies over the last two generations meant that the Bill was very complex. Therefore, I believe that a period of digestion in both Houses was justified. It was a complex Bill and we have done our best to digest the criticism of it.
Anticipating that there would be criticism concerning RDAs, I spent some time last weekend reading up on regional growth theory and a whole range of other things. I am still not entirely sure whether I hold to the spatial equilibrium theory or to the agglomeration growth theory, or whether I think that economics claims to be unduly scientific and sometimes does not entirely understand what is happening on the ground.
I can assure the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, that this Government are strongly committed to reducing regional disparities. None of us can be happy that the gap between London and the south-east and, above all, the north and north-west of England, in terms of incomes, house prices and even life expectancy, has widened so much under the successive Governments of different parties over the last 20 to 25 years. The regional policies of the last Government did not reverse that trend. As noble Lords will know, we are now in the process of setting up a regional growth fund and local economic partnerships based on city regions rather than the wider regions. I have to say, looking at the Yorkshire region, that the wider Leeds region is rather different from the wider Hull region, but that is an area that we shall continue to debate as these new measures are put in place. More will be announced in the autumn Financial Statement.
On the question of the European regional development fund, the Government have of course paid attention to it as it is an important part of this. The programmes will now be guided by local management committees which oversee ERDF investment and assess progress. These committees draw their membership from government departments and a wide range of local partners, including local authorities, LEPs, educational institutions, the voluntary sector and members of the business community. So the LEPs will play an active role in the delivery of European regional development funds, both through their membership of the local management committees and as potential applicants for funding. I can assure the noble Baroness that we do not intend to let that pot of money stay unused.
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked about Dover Harbour Board. One has to say that Dover is a rather larger and more important harbour than some of those in Cornwall with which he is concerned, so the argument for making an exception of Dover partly rests upon the importance of that port compared to many others. I accept that to some extent this is an anomaly, the result of an extremely powerful and well organised local campaign. We shall see how far this provides an innovation that may spread elsewhere. The noble Lord may think that a Conservative MP supporting a people’s port proposal is slightly counterintuitive. That is the degree of innovation that we are concerned with but, again, we shall see how this develops. There was very powerful feeling within the town, and in a democratic country one should occasionally—perhaps frequently—take the strength of local opinion into account.
Having answered some of the points raised, I beg to move that these amendments be now agreed to.
Lord McNally
That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 47.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, to assist the House, I will move the Motion on Amendment 47 formally because that will enable the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, to move his Amendment 47A, to which I intend to speak in support.
Amendment 47A (to the Motion on Amendment 47)
Lord Ramsbotham
As an amendment to the Motion that this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 47, leave out “agree” and insert “disagree”.
Lord Ramsbotham
My Lords, as the Minister has already announced the Government’s intentions, which he informed me about earlier this afternoon, I do not intend to detain the House with the contents of the speech that I would otherwise have given.
I would like to thank and congratulate the Government on the decision that they have come to. By deciding to retain the Youth Justice Board, they have provided a service to two separate organisations and bodies: first, the youth justice system as a whole, which has benefited from the leadership and direction of the Youth Justice Board since 1999; and, secondly, the Ministry of Justice itself, because it has retained an independent body capable of directing and overseeing the youth justice system on its behalf that is accountable and responsible to Ministers. This is particularly important in the light of the riots in the summer, because during that period the Youth Justice Board played an enormously important part both in liaising with, overseeing and helping the youth offending teams out in the community and in overseeing the introduction and reception into custody of people who required a great deal of help.
An interesting by-product of that is that people have realised that there is one group of young people in the criminal justice system who are not receiving the degree of oversight they could, and they are referred to as young adults, particularly those in the age group 18 to 21. I remember complaining about nothing being done for them in my thematic review, Young Prisoners, in 1998. There has been nothing done for them since. They are the poor relation and they are showing it. In the Youth Justice Board, the Ministry of Justice has a trained and experienced group of people who could take on this responsibility and help it out of a problem that is in urgent need of resolution.
Having said that, because all the reasons for my disagreement were discussed when the Bill came through the House, I beg to move.
Lord Warner
My Lords, I too would like to associate myself with the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. I do not know whether this is career enhancing or not, but I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord McNally, on his influence in his department. I do not know what he slipped into the water at the Ministry of Justice, but he might like to give a supply of it to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, so that he can do the same at Richmond House in relation to the Health and Social Care Bill.
I pay tribute to the Youth Justice Board under the leadership of Frances Done and John Drew, the chief executive. They have shown enormous resilience during this rather lengthy process in which a sword of Damocles has been hanging over them as to their future. It is a tribute to their professionalism that they have kept going and have continued to provide a sterling service. As the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, said, during the London riots they did a good job and dealt with some very difficult situations. I think the whole House would want to pay tribute to their work.
Lord Elton
My Lords, in the briefest speech yet, I wish merely to say that there is more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner that repenteth than over 99 troubled Ministers.
Baroness Linklater of Butterstone
My Lords, we are absolutely delighted with this news. It is the triumph of sweet reason and I congratulate the Minister on what has been his absolute grit.
Just to say a brief word, it is difficult to exaggerate the importance of the work of the Youth Justice Board as it is currently operating. It works in the interests of the most vulnerable, difficult and challenging children. In doing so, the board is meeting the interests of us all as its work has implications for both our society today and the nature of our society tomorrow, of which these children will be part. It is also difficult to exaggerate the value and quality of the organisation that the YJB has become over the past few years under Frances Done and John Drew. Further, it advises the Secretary of State for Justice on the operation of the youth justice system. It is the overarching and co-ordinating body for the secure estate for children, for youth offending teams and, increasingly, for other government departments and agencies in both the voluntary and private sectors that make provision for children who offend. This is a great development and another reason why we should rejoice in the continued life of the Youth Justice Board as we know it.
It is worth reminding ourselves that, while the Minister, Crispin Blunt, already has wide-ranging powers of oversight in statute, he needs the wisdom and advice of a highly experienced and knowledgeable arm’s-length body that is expert in the field of children to inform and advise him. It is excellent to learn that he will continue to have that help from the YJB. I was going to say a bit more, as did the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, about the board’s remarkable success in keeping the show on the road and doing such extraordinary work during the riots. It is a story that is not well understood or loudly told, but it has been absolutely extraordinary.
I end by saying that we are delighted and grateful that the work of the YJB can continue. It is the best possible news for the children whose challenges and needs can still be met, for their families and for society as a whole. We are the richer for this decision.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, perhaps I may add my voice to all those who have already applauded the Government on their sterling efforts and on seeing good sense. As one of those who perhaps was responsible for gently urging the Government to turn, I think it is only right and proper to add my many congratulations to the Government on taking this important step—not least because, having had the advantage of the help, advice and support of the YJB, I know that Ministers in the Ministry of Justice will quickly come to realise that they could never have made a better decision.
The Earl of Listowel
My Lords, I also want briefly to thank the Minister for this announcement and to say how grateful I am to the Government for the careful way that they have listened to the concerns of noble Lords, for the meetings with the Secretary of State and for their attempts to adjust their plans in order to meet those concerns. I am extremely glad to hear this good news today. There is much more work to be done. As the population of children in custody reduces, as it has been, those remaining in custody are more difficult and challenging, so we need the best possible systems and approaches in place to deal with these higher levels of need. Again, I would like to express my thanks to the Minister and the Secretary of State for this decision.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I too was going to speak about heaven and sinners, as did the noble Lord, Lord Elton. But I would like to put on record that the sinner in this case is not the Minister, who I know will have done a fantastic job in persuading the department of the folly of its ways. The Minister himself is certainly not a sinner; he is more heavenly.
We on these Benches are absolutely delighted that the Government are doing the right thing. It might seem churlish, but I have to say that I wonder why it has taken a whole year for them to reach that decision. It was a whole year of insecurity, not just for the Youth Justice Board but for the youth justice system itself. As we know, the Youth Justice Board does a splendid job. By any standard of measurement it is a success story. As the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and others have said, following this summer’s disturbances —when there is, properly, great consideration being given to the need to tackle youth crime—the need for this excellent body is even greater. We should heed the wise words of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and look at the increased potential of this particular body in the difficult times in which we live.
We should pay tribute to the work of the Youth Justice Board itself, but also to the work and the voice of noble Lords all around this Chamber, led by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, my noble and learned friend Lady Scotland, my noble friend Lord Warner, the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, and others, all of whom have played a huge role in persuading the Government that it would have been wrong to abolish this excellent board. Long may it continue in its excellent work, which is to the benefit of the youth of this country, but also to the benefit of each and every citizen of this country.
Lord McNally
My Lords, I will certainly wish to see in Hansard the description of me by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, as heavenly. I will see what can be done about getting the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Warner, expunged, because they definitely would be career threatening.
I intervene briefly to make it clear that, as I said at the beginning, we will not be asking the House to oppose the noble Lord’s amendment, and therefore ask to insist upon the amendment to remove the Youth Justice Board from Schedule 1 to the Public Bodies Bill. Noble Lords will recall that this House removed the YJB from the Bill on Report in March. Subsequently, a government amendment reintroduced it to the Bill in the other place. The Government realise that the future of the Youth Justice Board is an emotive issue. It is an issue in which this House has always taken the closest interest. It has therefore not been a surprise that noble Lords have scrutinised and challenged our plans for the future governance of youth justice.
I want to be absolutely clear that this Government remain committed to maintaining a distinct focus on the needs of children and young people in the youth justice system. We have never proposed to remove youth offending teams, nor have we ever proposed to dismantle the dedicated secure estate for young people or to effect a takeover of youth justice by the National Offender Management Service. We always intended it to be kept separate. The Government have consistently made clear that we want to build on the strengths of the Youth Justice Board. We recognise that since it was established by the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 the Youth Justice Board has helped to transform the youth justice system. It oversaw the establishment of local youth offending teams, and has fulfilled an important role in reducing offending and reoffending among young people. It has also driven up standards in the discrete secure estate for young people.
During the debate on the future of youth justice, the Government set out to persuade Parliament that now that an effective youth justice system was in place, the oversight provided by the YJB was no longer required and direct ministerial accountability for youth justice should be restored. However, we have listened to the debates in both Houses during the passage of the Bill. We have listened to the points raised by respondents to the MoJ consultation and in the responses to our Green Paper. We acknowledged that there was considerable opposition to our proposal to abolish the Youth Justice Board. I must be clear, though, that the abolition has never been about saving money—the MoJ does not have major savings contingent on its abolition. That is why we are no longer pursuing the abolition of the Youth Justice Board as part of this Bill.
The Government still believe that there should be more direct ministerial accountability and involvement in youth justice. We believe, as many in this House believe, that there is a strong case for reform of the Youth Justice Board, and we will consider our options for achieving reform outside the Public Bodies Bill. For example, we have wide-ranging powers already open to us under the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 and other powers, which the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, and I think at an earlier date my noble friend Lord Elton, referred to. We will consider whether we can use these powers in the context of more direct ministerial accountability but will do so in consultation with the Youth Justice Board and with the intention of working harmoniously with it.
I also have to put on record that the Youth Justice Board will remain within the context of the Cabinet Office’s policy on public bodies and its stipulation that all non-departmental public bodies should be reviewed at least once every three years. I will also remind the Cabinet Office that your Lordships’ House will continue to keep a close interest in the Youth Justice Board, so if it wants to back into that bacon-slicer again in three years’ time, it is up to the Cabinet Office.
I know that at these times this House can get very self-congratulatory, but tribute has been paid and the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, read out the roll of honour. I have been in this House long enough to know that when the Ramsbothams, the Eltons and the Linklaters coalesce with the Warners, you are in trouble as a Minister. That was true in the previous Administration as well. The other point that has come through in contribution after contribution is that the real influence and power in all this has been the reputation of the YJB itself. It has been able to call on friends in its time of need because of that reputation. I associate myself with the tributes that have been paid on all sides of the House to its response to the riots during the summer and the very effective way in which it dealt with the problems of young people at that time.
I assure the House that we will continue to work closely with the YJB on all our youth justice priorities. Indeed, I want to put on record, as others have done and as I did in Questions earlier in the year about this, a sincere tribute to the work of Frances Done, the chair, and John Drew, the chief executive, and all the staff of the Youth Justice Board, who have carried on meeting the needs of the most vulnerable groups of young people over the last year while under the threat of abolition. I fully appreciate that that is not a happy position to be in. However, I can also say with absolute certainty that, even through this difficult period, the working relationship between the Ministry of Justice and the Youth Justice Board has been maintained effectively and at the highest standard. That is a tribute to the leadership and the staff of the board. The Government therefore support the noble Lord in his amendment and ask that this House insists on this amendment as passed.
Lord Ramsbotham
My Lords, I thank the Minister for the comprehensive nature and the spirit of his reply. I am very glad that he recognised that this House maintains an interest in the Youth Justice Board, because the House has a great deal of interest in expertise in the development of young people. I am very glad that the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Warner, and the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, mentioned by name Frances Done, the chairman, and John Drew, the chief executive, because during this period they have done two things: first, they have shown leadership of the system itself; and, secondly, they have show leadership of the board and the staff working for them during very uncertain times. They deserve the thanks not just of this House but of the nation. I do not propose to keep the House any longer because, thanks all those who have contributed, we have covered all the issues, including the thanks and congratulations to the Minister. I therefore beg to move that the House agree with the amendment.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 48.
Lord McNally
That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 49.
Amendment 49A (to the Motion on Amendment 49)
Lord Newton of Braintree
As an amendment to the Motion that this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 49, leave out from “agree” to end and insert “disagree with the Commons in their Amendment 49 but do propose Amendment 49B in lieu”.
“Conditions on the exercise of powers under sections 2 to 5
(1) Unless the conditions in subsection (2) of this section are met, a Minister may not make any order—
(a) under section 2 to merge the Administrative Justice and Tribunals Council and the Civil Justice Council;
(b) under section 3 to modify the constitutional arrangements of the Civil justice Council;
(c) under section 4 to modify the funding arrangements of the Civil Justice Council; or
(d) under section 5 to modify or transfer functions of the Civil Justice Council.
(2) The conditions are that—
(a) the Minister has laid before both Houses of Parliament a report setting out in detail how the Government proposes that the functions of the Administrative Justice and Tribunals Council and the Civil Justice Council will be carried out in future;
(b) 60 days have elapsed between the laying of a report under paragraph (a) and the laying of any order for any of the purposes set out in subsection (1) above;
(c) the Minister has laid before Parliament a response to any report of any Committee of either House of Parliament on the Administrative Justice and Tribunals Council or the Civil Justice Council published within two years of this Act coming into force; and
(d) two years have passed since the coming into force of this Act.”
Lord Newton of Braintree
My Lords, I am as delighted as anybody by what has happened on the previous amendment. I am also pleased that a concession has been offered to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, though I do not yet know what her reaction to it will be. I bound to say that that leaves me feeling slightly plaintive as the only one to whose modest concerns the Government appear to be unwilling to make any move at all. I have down an amendment in lieu but that is not the one that I am moving. I made it clear to the Minister earlier this morning that I would only move the amendment if it had any attraction to the Government as allowing them to make a move in my direction.
Lord McNally
I am advised that if the noble Lord is not going to move these, he should now speak to the amendment that he is going to move, which is Amendment 49C.
Lord Newton of Braintree
I am sorry. Because of the complexities of this process, on which I had taken advice earlier, that is certainly right. I am not moving Amendment 49A, a point on which I had given the Minister notice earlier. I intend to move Amendment 49C.
Lord Newton of Braintree
As an amendment to the Motion that this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 49, leave out “agree” and insert “disagree”.
Lord Newton of Braintree
My Lords, I beg to move Amendment 49C, with which I also wish to speak to Amendments 50A, 51A and 54A, which are related to the other amendments in what I regard as a group.
These amendments are designed to preserve some amendments inserted into the Bill by this House on an amendment of mine at Report—an amendment on which I had strong support from various parts of the House, including my noble and learned friends Lord Mackay and Lord Howe of Aberavon, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, who I am delighted to see in his place. My noble and learned friend Lord Mackay is manifestly not in his place, because I am. I do not want to read too much into that; he supported me before and I have not checked what his view would have been on this occasion, though I hope he would have continued to support me.
The purpose of my amendments was not to frustrate the Government’s original intention to abolish the Administrative Justice and Tribunals Council, if that is what they continue to wish to do, but simply to give them scope for greater flexibility if they wanted to do something more creative, on reflection. Let me be quite explicit in respect of the Civil Justice Council, which is named in some of these amendments. I say this particularly to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf. I had neither wish nor intention to damage the Civil Justice Council in any way, but I have long thought that there could be scope for some rationalisation between these bodies, and I am encouraged by the fact that the Master of the Rolls appeared to indicate that view in his remarks to the annual conference of the AJTC last week.
I shall not rehearse the arguments, as I set them out pretty fully on Report and noble Lords are slightly past wanting to hear them. But I shall make 10 points. First, good administrative justice—a fair system accepted by citizens for resolving disputes between the citizen and the state—is part of the bedrock of a society like ours. The second is that the Ministry of Justice has a sort of responsibility in this area, but its main specific responsibility is simply for that part of it that is covered by the Tribunals Service, not by much other essential machinery. It is not responsible for local authority tribunals, including those very important ones, to many citizens, that deal with education, exclusion and appeal matters and other local authority issues. It has no policy responsibility for ombudsmen, who are a key part of this whole set-up, and it has no policy responsibility for decision making and complaints handling of individual government departments, which is another crucial factor in administrative justice.
My next point is that the Council on Tribunals, now the Administrative Justice and Tribunals Council, is agreed to have played a major part over 50 years in improving a system of administrative justice that was bordering on a disgrace in the middle 1950s. There have been major improvements to which the council, under both titles, has contributed, not least the creation of the new Tribunals Service.
I am not sure which point this is—I have 10 in all. My next point is that the creation of the wider remit of the reformed Administrative Justice and Tribunals Council was fully supported less than four years ago by every group in this House, including the then Conservative opposition Front Bench and the then Liberal Democrat Front Bench. So to an extent this is going back to something that was committed to very shortly before the election. There was no manifesto commitment to its abolition and no mandate that can be claimed for its abolition.
My next point is that a key ingredient was the need for an independent voice for the interests and needs of the user of administrative justice systems. That cannot and would not be done by the Ministry of Justice—by people whose primary day-to-day accountability is to the Minister, not to the user or the stakeholder.
My next point is regarding the Parliamentary Ombudsman, whom people may like or not, but the Ombudsman’s comments on the proposed abolition in relation to the consultation document is worth a guinea per minute and quite short. I am not going to read it all out, but one paragraph of it says that her extensive contact with the Ministry of Justice in its various guises over many years gives her no confidence whatever in the ability of the Ministry to assume the functions of the AJTC. She goes on to say that however well-meaning and diligent individual officials may be, the Ministry simply lacks the institutional history, capability and technical knowledge to do that. I say hear, hear to that.
Then there is a devolution angle, which the Minister may not even have thought about. The Administrative Justice and Tribunals Council has a Scottish Committee and has always had one, based in Edinburgh. Since its reincarnation as the AJTC, it also has a Welsh Committee. Both these bodies are valued by the devolved Administrations. Nobody has made any decisions, but the Scottish Administration is looking at the possibility of creating a civil justice council, embracing the work of the Scottish Committee of the AJTC. Northern Ireland, which at present has nothing much at all in this field, is also looking at a model of that kind. From what I was told on Thursday, Wales, too, is looking at a council that would take on the work of the Welsh Committee. Would it not be ridiculous if, as a result of this, England—which started all this—became the only part of the United Kingdom without a body to provide what has been provided in England by the council and tribunals of the AJTC for more than 50 years in respect of oversight and a voice for administrative justice? I think it would be almost unbelievable.
Finally, not everybody will know—I hope the Minister does, certainly his departmental colleague, Mr Djanogly, does—that the Public Administration Select Committee in another place is conducting an inquiry into this abolition proposal. Having attended the hearing yesterday, I make the following points. First, the Ministry, according to the Minister in the other place, Mr Djanogly, as I heard him, intends to take in all the AJTC staff alongside building some modest increase in its own previously non-existent capability even to offer policy advice in this area. I must say that casts huge doubt on the savings figures we have been given, and it was clear yesterday that nobody knows what those figures are.
Secondly, it appears to be accepted by everyone that the MoJ cannot replace much of the work that the AJTC does, especially on the user front and in creating effective stakeholder relationships on a wide scale, as represented by the conference that the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, attended and spoke at with great distinction last week. I do not believe the MoJ can do that. I do not know what the report will say, of course, because it has not yet been written, but from what I heard yesterday, I think it is highly likely that the Public Administration Select Committee will say that the Government need to look again at this. If they do, that means that an important committee in another place will in effect be saying that another place itself needs the opportunity for further reflection on this proposal. I suggest that your Lordships should give it that opportunity and I intend, subject only to the miracle of the Minister saying something that I do not expect him to say, to seek the opinion of the House.
Lord McNally
My Lords, I had better intervene now so that I do not keep my noble friend Lord Newton in suspense for too long. Alas, as he knows, because we have discussed this on a number of occasions, I am not able to deliver the kind of assurances that I was able to deliver for the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, can the Minister clarify whether he is seeking to wind up the debate?
Lord McNally
No, I am not seeking to wind up the debate. I thought that it would be useful for me to say something now so that there would be something for the noble Lord to attack me on afterwards—and then I can attack him after that. No, I thought it would be useful at this stage to state where we are coming from because, as I say, I had a number of conversations with my noble friend Lord Newton. I had a meeting with him and my noble and learned friend Lord Howe and I took their concerns back to my colleagues.
However, I have to make it clear that the purpose of the Government today is to restate their intention to abolish the AJTC outright, using the powers in Clause 1. I also make it clear that the Government have no intention of merging the AJTC with the Civil Justice Council. There is no appetite within Government or the senior judiciary to add to the CJC to the Bill. I am pleased that following a Division in Committee, noble Lords agreed to the proposal to abolish the AJTC. I am conscious that what my noble friend Lord Newton has been trying to do—I still use the term noble friend, as I hope he will—is to give the Government some wriggle room on this matter. Sadly, as I have just explained, the Government do not want wriggle room on this matter but to abolish the AJTC.
The Government’s rationale for abolition has been made in both Houses and on a number of occasions. The Government are committed to this reform because the AJTC is an advisory body whose functions are either no longer required or, in the case of its policy functions, are more properly performed by the Government themselves. The abolition of the AJTC will have no direct impact on judicial independence or—
Lord Borrie
My Lords, an intervention by the Minister may well have been useful but he is using every sentence he now utters in opposition to any move of any kind. Does that mean that there is no point in any of us intervening further in this debate after he sits down?
Lord McNally
Absolutely not. I have heard Ministers make such speeches in this House but I will take advice from the Clerks. I am very willing to sit down and to listen to all the debate but the idea was to make it clear where we were coming from. As is shown by the Marshalled List, the Government do not intend to accept any of the amendments tabled by my noble friend Lord Newton. That is abundantly clear. Whether the noble Lord wants to hear that at the end of the debate or now is a matter of choice but I will look to the Clerk for guidance.
I understand that if I want to speak early for the assistance of the House, it is fine. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, will accept that and that we can go on. I do not see where it disrupts the debate and I look forward to his contribution, as I always do.
As I say, the abolition of the AJTC will have no direct impact on judicial independence or judicial decision-making. I want to make it clear that the AJTC is not a tribunal or any other form of judicial body. While it has observing rights, it is not an inspectorate and does not have the range of monitoring and reporting powers that an inspectorate would expect to have. The AJTC was set up to advise the Lord Chancellor, Ministers of the devolved Administrations in Scotland and Wales and the Senior President of Tribunals on administrative justice. One of the council’s functions is to keep under review the constitution and working of tribunals. However, we have moved on from a structure in which tribunals were funded by the department whose decisions they reviewed. We now have the unified Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service supporting the majority of central government tribunals and ensuring that tribunal users have access to timely and effective justice. Previously disparate management, procedures, appeals and funding mechanisms are now administered centrally by the Ministry of Justice. There are also a number of ways by which ministerial accountability is assured for the performance of Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service, further reducing the need for the kind of oversight that the AJTC provides.
The Ministry of Justice is committed to maintaining and developing its overview of the end-to-end administrative justice system. It is working with other departments and the devolved Administrations in Scotland and Wales to ensure that there continues to be a UK-wide overview of administrative justice. It also has close links with the Cabinet Office, which leads on ombudsman policy.
Much is made of the AJTC’s ability to offer independent advice and I understand the principle; it is an important one. However, independence must be weighed against the effectiveness of such bodies if being so far removed from the centre means that they lack the ability to influence and drive change. I urge this House to view the Government’s proposals for administrative justice policy in this light.
It is my belief that officials are well placed to provide Ministers with objective, expert and impartial policy advice on administrative justice matters. That is what officials do in every other justice policy area. Officials have forged links with stakeholders in the administrative justice field that will enhance their role and capability. Indeed, the department intends to establish a group of administrative justice experts and key stakeholders, particularly those who represent the views of users. In practice, that will likely include those who practise or have practised in relevant fields. Such a group will provide a valuable forum for sharing information and best practice and will be used to test policy ideas and, initially, to help prioritise the administrative justice work programme.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart
In the light of the concerns that have been forcefully expressed on a number of occasions in this House, will my noble friend consider whether the new arrangements could be made rather more transparent than has been the case in respect of some ministries in revealing what the consequences of these inquiries are? Perhaps an annual report could be produced for a number of years so that we can judge how effective the proposed changes are in the event.
Lord McNally
I am happy to take that suggestion back. It sounds a reasonable idea although I do not know what the cost would be. All I can promise my noble friend is that I will take it back and let him know, via a letter that I can put in the Library of the House, what the reaction is to that. The AJTC’s budget for the 2010-11 financial year was £1.3 million, compared with the Civil Justice Council’s budget of a relatively modest £312,000. That reflects the fact that AJTC members are paid while CJC members are not.
So it is for reasons of efficiency, economy and effectiveness that the Government are not seeking to modify any of these proposals. There is no other public body that could easily take on the functions of the CJC, which is why we retain it. However, I insist that the reasons for abolishing the AJTC are as sound now as they were when this House took that decision some months ago. Although I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Newton for offering us the wriggle room, it is not wriggle room that the Lord Chancellor wishes to take advantage of. He wishes for this House to confirm the decision that it initially took and proceed as soon as possible with the abolition of the AJTC. I hope that is of help to noble Lords in the contributions that they want to make to this debate.
Lord Woolf
My Lords, I wonder if I might add my support to each of the points made by my friend, the noble Lord, Lord Newton. With the greatest respect, the Government have misunderstood why his latest proposal would be very positive indeed. The approach that has been developed over the period for which I have been concerned with administrative law in different capacities is to see that access to and the administration of justice are both significantly influenced by what happens in tribunals. Therefore, there has been a policy of ensuring that there is no geological gap between what the tribunals and other bodies of that sort, including the ombudsmen, do and what the courts do.
At various levels and in various parts of the administrative justice system to which the noble Lord, Lord Newton, and the Minister referred, there are now judges in place who play a leading role either directly or indirectly. They play it indirectly through the increasing incidence of direct appeals to the Court of Appeal from certain bodies and, where that is not possible, through judicial review. It is important to the rule of law that these bodies should be doing what is required of them.
What we have found is that both the criminal and civil courts need a council of the sort that the Civil Justice Council provides—one that brings together those who have personal and direct experience of the sharp end of running these bodies as chairmen, deputy chairmen or in some other such capacity, and very experienced practitioners. They should provide a brains trust, which could feed back from these bodies into the justice system as a whole. They can then perform their immediate responsibilities of improving the criminal or civil law, taking into account the position of these other bodies, and of improving the quality of what happens in the bodies to which I have referred,
The Minister made a case that all this could be done by the Ministry of Justice. No one has greater affection or admiration for the Ministry of Justice than I have, but I have to admit that there are certain fields in which practitioners have a greater insight than the ministry has. In the field of criminal justice, which is very important, and in the field of civil justice generally, which is equally important, it is now accepted that there should be a council, in addition to what the ministry can provide, to provide this extra insight into the subject. It is no answer to say that this insight can be achieved by the Ministry of Justice because such a body would supplement the ministry’s task and shine a light on this important area of providing justice that would otherwise not be available.
There has been a great improvement in the Bill—thanks to the debates on it—regarding the ability of the Ministry of Justice to listen. Having listened in turn to what the Minister had to say, I would to say to him, with the greatest deference and respect, that although there has been listening there has been no understanding of the nature of the body being put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Newton. For the reasons that he gave, I urge caution before deciding that this body should receive the chop. It should not be a sacrificial lamb.
Lord Borrie
My Lords, we have just heard a most helpful intervention from the noble and learned Lord because he has put the issue of the Administrative Justice and Tribunals Council into context. It is concerned with that part of the judicial scene that consists largely of tribunals—under one name or another—that seek to do justice as between the individual and the state. It is a field of judicial work that has become increasingly significant and understood by the public and the courts—because sometimes, through judicial review or appeal, the courts have had to hear cases that have been attended to first by tribunals.
During our earlier debates in this House, I proposed an amendment that was, I should say to the Minister, only narrowly lost. It would have deleted this body from the list of bodies in the Bill that were for the chop, as the noble and learned Lord put it. I was grateful then for the support of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe, other noble and learned Lords in this House, and of course the noble Lord, Lord Newton. I do not know whether the noble Lord would agree with me, but one of the disadvantages of our debates on this subject is that the body is in the wrong place alphabetically. The trouble is that because its initial is A, it came at the beginning of a great list of bodies. Therefore, when seeking an amendment whereby this body would be deleted from the schedule of those bodies that were for the chop, we had to have a debate and vote fairly early on in our discussions. With respect to all those who took part, I do not think that the body received the justice it deserved to ensure its continued existence.
The noble Lord, Lord Newton, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, have just emphasised the significance and importance of the AJTC and the fact that it should not be abolished because it provides an independent voice on matters which are of tremendous importance to this relatively new set of bodies—we are talking about 50 or 100 years but that is new in the law—which deal with disputes between the individual and the state.
There is a case to be made for independent advice from a body such as the AJTC, formerly known as the Council on Tribunals, which had a slightly narrower remit. Its significance was that there were practitioners of all kinds who were independent and represented the customer—the ordinary person appearing in these cases. Those practitioners included academic lawyers. I state an interest in that I once was such, but they provided useful input into the Council on Tribunals, in part because they knew something about the ways in which these cases were decided in other countries. Therefore, a knowledge of these matters and how other countries deal with them was brought to bear in the Council on Tribunals.
The noble Lord, Lord Newton, has stated very clearly that, while of course the assistance and guidance of civil servants in the department is invaluable and essential, useful advice can come from elsewhere, especially when it is given not by a narrow group but with each person representing him or herself on a whole range of interests concerning tribunals. Those people come together and discuss the vital maters affecting tribunals, and that will be lost if the AJTC is abolished.
The attempt by some of us to preserve this body in some form at an earlier stage was defeated, and I have perhaps been biased in my remarks as to how that came about. However, it would be of great service to the community and to the rule of law in this country if we took a step today through the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Newton, to ask the Commons to look at the matter again.
Lord Pannick
My Lords, the policy of the law over the past few years has been to focus more attention on tribunals and to do so because they are quicker and cheaper than the courts and they often have expertise that judges, for all their qualities, do not have. Surely we should be very slow indeed to abolish the body which will help to ensure that this policy of the law is promoted efficiently, economically and in an independent manner.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, perhaps I may add a few words to those already so ably spoken by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf. He mentioned that the civil justice and criminal justice systems are already covered by a council, one for each. Noble Lords will know that approximately 63,000 cases come before the civil justice courts and that approximately 223,000 come before the criminal courts, but 650,000 cases come before tribunals. Although this afternoon we have talked loosely about administrative law, one has to understand that this is the meat and drink of the lives of ordinary men and women in our country. We are talking about the benefits system, immigration and all the issues that touch the lives of many poor people who do not have the wherewithal to go anywhere else. Therefore, this council’s role is at least, if not more, important than the councils that are being preserved for the civil and criminal justice systems. It is acknowledged by all who know the council’s work that it is a very precious resource. It safeguards the situation for the citizen, and in these days of fiscal austerity the need for it has never been greater.
Legal aid is being threatened. The proposed restrictions are severe. If implemented, the citizen’s need for an avenue through which administrative acts by the Government of the day can be challenged will be enhanced. The question is: if this amendment is not passed and if the Government are not asked to think again, how do they propose to retain the independence that has always been deserved and needed by the individual? How then do we ensure the transparency and fairness which we have all come to recognise as an integral part of administrative justice? I ask the noble Lord to think very seriously indeed about whether the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Newton, is not a lifeline which the Government should now seize.
When dealing with mistakes—and I honestly believe that this is a very grave mistake indeed—Confucius gave the following advice, and I will read it just to help the Minister, who may be minded to accept it:
“Be not ashamed of mistakes and thus make them crimes. But a man who has committed a mistake and does not correct it is making another mistake”.
I suggest that Confucius was right, and that the noble Lord should avoid that trap.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, the noble Lord has already given his views. He has had a little time perhaps to reflect on the debate, and one can only hope that having heard the debate he might come back a second time with a somewhat more responsive point of view than we originally heard. I certainly, from the opposition Benches, once again support the noble Lord, Lord Newton, on this. I thought he made the case eloquently once again for the value of the Administrative Justice and Tribunals Council and the impact for good that it has on the performance of many government departments in Whitehall. In particular, I pay tribute to the council for its focus on what it describes as improving initial decision-making as it affects members of the public. That is surely the importance of the council; it is concerned with administrative processes in relation to members of the public.
My noble and learned friend Lady Scotland referred to legal aid. It is interesting to reflect—indeed, my noble friend referred to this earlier in our debates—on the council’s comments on the impact on legal aid. I am not raising the issue of legal aid; the point is that the council has said that it believes that the Government bear responsibility for,
“causing many of the appeals in the administrative justice system … through poor … decision-making, poor communications … delay or through overly complex and … incomprehensible legislation and regulations”.
The council has been making these points for over 50 years and it has undoubtedly led to improvements in these administrative processes. There is clearly still some way to go. From what the noble Lord, Lord McNally, has said, we are to believe that everything will be all right because his department will be able to analyse the performance of different government departments, comment on them and encourage them to improve their administrative processes.
Is it realistic to think that the Ministry of Justice will be able to make that kind of statement and identify faults in administrative processes in other departments of government, let alone in itself? Of course, the Ministry of Justice will have to be subject to some kind of scrutiny by the team of officials that will be based in the Minister's department. The history of trying to influence government departments in this area surely shows that an external advisory body would be much more likely to have an impact, particularly if it were able to make public statements about the faults it finds in decision-making processes, than would a unit in the department of the noble Lord, Lord McNally.
Lord McNally
My Lords, when one gets advice from people ranging from Confucius to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, it is necessary to take a pause. However, I would like to House to return to the first principles of the Public Bodies Bill. The intention was to look at a range of bodies that had grown up to perform various functions. The philosophy behind it is one that I support. Over the past 20 to 30 years, Governments have got into the habit of passing the buck. When in doubt, one should set up an advisory body, an inquiry or a tsar—anything to prevent a Minister having to stand at the Dispatch Box and take responsibility for something that has been done. It is partly against that trend that the Public Bodies Bill set off on its journey some months ago.
Although it is always very tempting to take up the kind of options offered by my noble friend Lord Newton, as I said in my helpful opening guidance remarks the Lord Chancellor and the other place have listened. Both Houses came to a firm conclusion on abolition and therefore I am not tempted to go down the side road offered by my noble friend, however attractive it might be. We have mentioned the public expenditure aspect of this. Whenever one addresses problems, there is a tendency to say, “It is only £1.3 million”. However, that is more expenditure. Perhaps I may humbly say that you always know when a lawyer is insulting you because they are very polite about it.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
I wish no disrespect to the noble Lord. I have just two comments. First, I wish he had taken part in our debates on the Health and Social Care Bill. His noble friend Lord Howe is busily seeking to hand over all responsibility for the NHS to the biggest quango there will ever be. Secondly, on the question of cost, will he reflect on the evidence that the council gives about poor decision-making, poor communication and delay because of overly complex or incomprehensible rules? Surely, the impact of the council is to help the Government to reduce expenditure. Does he think that his department will be publishing advice like that on the performance of itself and other government departments?
Lord McNally
Indeed. One of the thrusts of our argument is that the sooner the Government get back into the habit of taking responsibility for their own inefficiencies, the better. My department and HMCTS are already working closely with DWP on a range of initiatives to improve initial decision-making. It is about time that government departments took responsibility and I concede a whole range of areas where initial decision-making is poor and causes expense. But that is not a reason to pass the buck to some other body. The job is for government to get on with improving the efficiencies.
The Ministry of Justice is well placed to ensure that administrative justice is a key part of the wider justice reform agenda. We are committed to developing a strategic UK-wide approach. We are also committed to ensuring that the right decisions are made the first time. When disputes arise we will provide proportionate, timely and cost-effective solutions and drive ongoing improvements in the system. The MoJ already has strong links with the devolved Governments and other government departments and is already demonstrating the benefits of this. The department is currently considering priority areas and the resources needed to take them forward. At present there is a core team consisting of staff of a range of grades which has access to the wider justice policy group. The team can freely call on legal and analytical experts.
Other issues were raised. Any idea of a merger with the CJC has been ruled out by the judiciary. I mentioned in my initial intervention that we would establish a group of administrative justice experts and key stakeholders to draw on their views. As for the Public Accounts Committee inquiry, my honourable friend Jonathan Djanogly gave evidence yesterday. We will certainly take note of any recommendations that the committee makes. However, I do not think that it will remove the central piece of our analysis, which is that the AJTC is an advisory body that is no longer required in the field of administrative justice. Robust governance and oversight arrangements are now in place with regard to tribunals and the development of administrative justice policy is properly a function of government. A source of advice that is independent of government is not a prerequisite. Civil servants in the MoJ already offer Ministers balanced, objective, impartial advice, and they can draw on expert advice on administrative justice reform.
The Government will ensure that they exercise effective oversight of the administrative justice system in a way that best serves its users. They will develop, maintain and enhance a UK perspective of the system as well as enhancing their links with stakeholders. The Government will expand the channels by which best practice can be shared and collaborative working developed across the administrative justice system.
I have been asked to think again but I say to the House that we have had ample time to think about this. This House has already made one decision on this body. The amendments of my noble friend Lord Newton may be either helpful or ingenious, whichever way one likes to approach them. However, at this stage of a Bill, when the other place has had ample time and ample consideration of these matters, the Government are entitled to say to this advisory House that we have listened to this advice but that we want to abolish this body.
Lord Newton of Braintree
My Lords, I started off slightly plaintive and have ended up more than slightly depressed. I can assure the Minister that I do not wish to become personal non-chums with him. Actually, I rather sympathise with him having to trot out all this stuff for the third or fourth time. He said he thought that the arguments were as sound now as they were at the beginning. From my point of view, they are as weak now as they were at the beginning.
I will make very few points as there is no point in going over all the ground again. I am hugely grateful to those who have spoken in my support. Rather unusually for this kind of debate, they have not only supported me and repeated some of the things that I have said, but all of them have added something significant to the arguments in the debate. I will not pick noble Lords out except for the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, because the Minister said that the judiciary rules out any idea of this being combined in some way—the noble Lord used the word “merging”—with the work of the Civil Justice Council. At least in historical terms, you cannot get much more senior than the noble and learned Lord Woolf. I also have from three separate sources a report that the Master of the Rolls, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Neuberger, who is also pretty senior, said at the AJTC conference last week that he could easily envisage an administrative justice committee of the Civil Justice Council and he seemed to think that it would be a good thing if the set-up were right. I see the noble and learned Lord the former Lord Chief Justice nodding. I do not think that it is right to say that members of the senior judiciary have set their faces against this. It seems to me that that is not the case. I believe that efficiency, economy and effectiveness have been covered with the figures that I gave and that have been given by others.
I must make the point that remarks about Ministers taking responsibility for decisions are completely irrelevant. This is not a decision-making body. This is an advisory body. The Minister said that the department would need to assemble some kind of stakeholder group. I do not recall his exact words. He put the emphasis on practitioners. That means reinventing the AJTC, in one way or another, when it already broadly carries out this function and more, because it links with users, not just stakeholders, judges and advocates. This ties in with the fact, as I learnt on Thursday last, that the tribunal service, which in my time asked the AJTC to run two of its user groups because it was thought that we did it better, has now scrapped all its user groups on the grounds that it cannot afford them. Where does that leave this argument?
There is very little else that I want to say. I do not think that the case stands up. I do not think that the Minister’s arguments stand up. I think that we need a body like this. I wish to seek the opinion of the House.
Lord McNally
That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 50.
The Deputy Speaker (Lord Faulkner of Worcester)
My Lords, I should point out that there is a misprint in Amendment 50A, and that the words, “and insert ‘disagree’”, should appear at the end.
Amendment 50A (to the Motion on Amendment 50)
Lord Newton of Braintree
As an amendment to the Motion that this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 50, leave out “agree” and insert “disagree”.
Lord Newton of Braintree
My Lords, I do not intend to move Amendment 51A. I thought that it was worth a try, given the narrowness of the defeat on the first vote. However, I know when I am beat, and I am not going to grumble any further. I will go quietly—at least for this evening.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 52.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
That the House do disagree with the Commons in their Amendment 53 but do propose Amendments 53C, 53D and 53E in lieu.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
As an amendment to the Motion, leave out “but do propose Amendments 53C, 53D and 53E in lieu”.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
My Lords, I was, of course, absolutely delighted, as were so many others—in fact everybody, as far as I know—to see that the office of the chief coroner will continue. I know that this means an enormous amount to those people who have been bereaved, who have had bad experiences, and who have campaigned tirelessly in spite of their overwhelming grief to try to ensure that others do not suffer through our coronial system the hurt and sense of injustice that they at times have suffered. It was that motivation that lay behind the Coroners and Justice Act 2009, which was passed in this House with support from all sides.
In agreeing to the office of the chief coroner, I would like formally to thank the Government and the Ministers, and while it might seem invidious to single out any two, I would particularly like to record my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord McNally, and also to Jonathan Djanogly, who is the Minister. They have both made themselves available to meet me and others at all times, and at times of inconvenience to them but when I was in London or when others could meet them. They have always been courteous, they have always listened, and they have always taken on board points that were made to them.
I would also like sincerely to thank all Members of the House who have supported the move to have a chief coroner, who have voted with their consciences in the past, who have asked questions, and who have given so much support to the drive to establish this office. I also thank, of course, the bereavement organisations such as INQUEST, the Royal British Legion, Cry and many others, the list of which is almost too long to mention. All have stood shoulder to shoulder in a campaign where at last they can see that, after more than 100 years, our coronial system will be modernised.
The chief coroner will establish independent leadership, set standards and ensure that all coroners, deputies and officers are trained. I currently have the privilege of being involved in this year’s round of training for those groups of people, and I look forward to the days when we all know, and indeed the chief coroner has made sure, that all coroners, all deputies and all officers have participated in training, which is currently voluntary but needs to be made compulsory to drive up standards.
All Members of this House will have received the letter that was circulated to us, and I would ask the Minister, when responding to me, to provide a reassurance that the appointment will now proceed without delay, and that there will not be a hiatus before these long-overdue reforms can start.
It is with sadness that I note, in the letter, the intention to exclude the appeals system from the process. If I might remind the House, the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 in Section 182 states that the appeals process, which is Section 40, is one of the provisions of the Act that comes into force only,
“on such day as the Secretary of State may by order appoint”.
That means that, in fact, the appeals system could sit on the statute without any pressure for it to be implemented until such time as the chief coroner and the Secretary of State agree that the appeals system should start. That means it could sit there for five, 10 or 15 years. I know that the Secretary of State cannot decide without the agreement of Parliament to cancel the appeals system, which is why we have this amendment before us which aims to do that, but it could just sit there.
In the letter that we have all received, cost was cited. However, I remind the House that those costings have not had an enormous modern review because they were made by the previous Government in their impact assessment in December 2008, in which they estimated that the costs of the appeal system would be £2.2 million of the running costs. However, as the Minister, Mr Djanogly, informed the other place, no further analysis has been conducted by the Ministry of Justice.
The suggestion has been made that the appeals system could be based around a tribunal—even a level 1 tribunal—which would be far less costly than the current process of judicial review. I remind the House that judicial review is a difficult and traumatic process, particularly for bereaved people to go through. It also incurs substantial costs to them. In 2009 alone, there were 12 substantial hearings and a further six renewal hearings, so the number of people who feel that they have to go to that extent is not insignificant. The appeals system as laid out in the Act would allow for appeals about coroners but not over an enormously broad-ranging aspect. It would be about the processes and decisions—particularly about whether to hold, suspend or restart an inquest, or whether a post-mortem should be conducted in the case. That system did not open the door to wide-ranging litigation but very much made sure that the system functioned properly.
I suggest that any future decision on the issue should be taken on the basis of rigorous, sound costings and careful consideration by the chief coroner himself. It would seem that leaving Section 40 out of the Coroners and Justice Act does not allow this review to happen, as it should. If this goes through, the chief coroner will be forced to address his concerns over appeals in his annual report, which will go to the Lord Chancellor. If it is recommended that there should be an appeals system, there would need to be a decision that further legislation would have to be brought through Parliament. I seek an assurance now from the Minister that the chief coroner will be required to report on both the complaints system and the views of the chief coroner on the appeals system, as far as it goes.
I remind the House that, time after time, there has been a call for an appeals system. Disaster Action, whose members have been involved in all the major disasters from Aberfan in 1966 to the Zeebrugge ferry disaster in 1987, the London bombings in 2005 and the Mumbai attacks in 2008, has said:
“It is crucial that”,
the appeals system,
“be re-instated as part of the Chief Coroner's functions. Judicial review is”,
an expensive,
“and unsatisfactory method of dealing with unreasonable decisions by coroners”.
I also remind your Lordships that the “Marchioness” disaster occurred only a stone’s throw from this House. In 1994, a Court of Appeal decision upheld the complaints by Eileen Dallaglio and Margaret Lockwood-Croft against Dr Paul Knapman, the Westminster coroner who had conducted the basic inquest. The tragedy occurred in 1989. That was five years of appeal before those bereaved relatives had any justice. I also remind the House that the Dallaglios are really a very high-achieving family. Their daughter died on the “Marchioness”, but of course their son became an international cap in rugby and has become a role model for many youngsters in the UK. The family’s perseverance is to be admired.
In its second report, the public inquiry criticised the coroner for removing the hands of victims for identification purposes and stated that this should never have happened. I will not list all the other examples. They come from the report on Hillsborough, which was debated recently in the other place, and many other reports into the conduct of inquests.
My fear in not having appeals available is that expensive judicial reviews or the difficulty of persuading the Attorney-General to exercise his or her power of fiat is not the way to signal that we recognise when bereaved people are not being treated with the respect that they deserve. I am disappointed that the Ministry of Justice has not analysed the cost of judicial review applications against coroners and their decisions. Having a High Court judge as a chief coroner, who will be welcomed universally—of that I am sure—would mean that some legal issues that currently are resolved in the administrative court could be resolved by the post-holder himself or herself in a more cost-efficient way for families and for the public purse. That direct link with the coronial system may also be a much more powerful lever than has been exercised up until now on those coroners whose way of making decisions should be reflected on by them and revised.
As best practice becomes the norm and a chief coroner is able to drive up standards and improve the way that the system works, I and many others predict that there will be a reduction in the number of disputes; complaints will be properly handled; families will be able to be represented; and, as standards rise, the need for people to proceed right through to appeal against a decision will drop, not rise. Far from creating a litigious culture and an endless right of appeal after inquests, the carefully crafted framework of the Act that we have at the moment has the potential to reduce the need for so many bereaved people to engage in expensive litigation.
I hope that no one will feel that my plea for an appeals system in any way detracts from the importance of the post of chief coroner. I will listen with great interest to the response of the Minister for the assurances that I have sought before I decide how to act tonight. I beg to move.
Lord Boswell of Aynho
My Lords, it is a great privilege to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, in this matter. I have only two points of divergence from what she has said, and they will be of a rather different character. I emphasise the noble Baroness’s praise for the efforts of Ministers to take up and address the fears that a number of us have expressed.
My first point of divergence from the noble Baroness is simply that she cannot praise herself, but I hope I may do so for her. She, and to some extent I, were participants in some of those earlier explanatory meetings after the initial flurry on this matter, when I found myself unable to support the Government, which is not my usual stance, because of the concerns that have been expressed. I know that Ministers have gone to an exceptional level of trouble, culminating in decisions this week to give us, in effect, the substance of what we want. It is perhaps difficult to score but as a percentage of the overall objective it is in the high 90s. I shall come back to that in a moment. It is an object lesson in how to do it.
To unpack the concerns that I and others expressed at the time, the coronial system, which had grown up locally and was delivered differently in different areas, had been perceptibly unresponsive to the needs of its users and often quite harsh to people who felt themselves vulnerable. In particular, it was uneven in its delivery. Something had to be done and I think the Government have now done it. I very much hope that the chief coroner, who has now been reinstated as the lead and the champion in this matter, will be able to take the agenda forward.
My other point of divergence from the noble Baroness is over the appeal system. It is of course right that we should raise that. It would be helpful if the Minister, in his response, said a little more about the managerial functions, which report to him in the Ministry of Justice; the judicial functions, which report to the chief coroner; and the overarching function of seeing that the system works satisfactorily and in accordance with the charter for bereaved people and is meeting their needs. He needs to set that out for us again, despite the helpful letter that he has circulated.
The area where I am mildly in dissent with the noble Baroness is that of appeals. Frankly, this is partly because when one has extracted nearly all the juice from the orange, it may or may not be prudent to put it to the final point. However, there is also a point of substance here, which I hope noble Lords will consider. One of the concerns that Ministers had was that in having a chief coroner they would be seen to be mixing up the administrative side with the judicial side. Although an inquest is a judicial process, it is not the normal kind of judicial process. I speak as a non-lawyer. It is not adversarial; there are no parties to it, although there are interested parties, including the bereaved families; and there is no judgment in favour of one side or the other. There are findings of fact, which may be right or wrong. Therefore, it is not necessarily self-evident that we need to cap this process of finding facts with a second tier of appeals, even if there are—as I am sure there are—some bereaved families whose concern, or duty to their loved ones as they see it, would lead them into further rounds of appeals until the process was exhausted.
I am not particularly keen on an appeal process, but one of the reasons why people wanted it was because the coronial system, as it had been delivered, probably deserved one because many inquests were flawed or not well conducted. There may be an argument that in those prelapsarian days, when we had no training and there was no overall supervision—which the chief coroner will now give—there was an uneven, patchy and unfair service. I hope that will be remedied without going through the second stage of an appeal process. If that was the major element of cost, and if it was a concern—as I am sure it was to Ministers—and it can be eliminated, whatever the exact figure, I think that would be sensible.
However, we have essentially secured the main prize: the survival of the position of the chief coroner. I remember the saying of the Roman poet: “You may kick out nature with a pitchfork, but somehow she will always come back”. This miraculously seems to have happened at the last moment with the chief coroner. I welcome that. The families of the bereaved will welcome it too, and we should not look the gift horse of government Ministers in the mouth. We should welcome what they are offering and accept it.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer
My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, for enabling Parliament to get back to the place where it should have been, and was, after the Coroners Act. She has done a tremendous job. It has also brought forth something that she mentioned briefly in her speech—she is now involved in the training of coroners. Already there is tremendous progress. I am also hugely grateful for all the work that my noble friend Lord McNally has put into this matter, because I am sure it is not easy to turn the ship of government around when it is sailing so fast in one direction. I can imagine the sort of effort that he had to put in.
The Royal British Legion and Inquest deserve particular gratitude, as do all the other organisations that signed the letter to the Times. A lot of them are run and supported by bereaved families, and it is not easy to go out and campaign when in the midst of grief. Some of those parents and siblings came to give evidence to parliamentarians about what had happened to them at inquests. I should like to take this opportunity to put on record my thanks to those people for giving us examples of why not only the training but the attitude of coroners to issues such as timeliness are extremely important.
I have one question for the Minister. The charter on the table is not now just for bereaved people but for anyone who comes before the coronial system. Some of us, including me, certainly felt that it should be a charter for bereaved people. It is not yet finalised and I hope that the chief coroner, who will be in a wonderful position to cast his or her eye over the draft charter, will have an opportunity to comment on it and perhaps improve it in the light of the things that he or she hears when talking to coroners.
Finally, I wish to comment from a purely personal point of view on the issue of appeals. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, made some very good points about the fact that the issue could lie on the table and be implemented later, if necessary, but my heart lies with the government position, and it is not really a question of cost. In many cases, there will never be real satisfaction for the bereaved because, even though the process may have been thorough, timely and open, that is just the nature of bereavement; there is no satisfaction. If the chief coroner manages with all his other coroners to get the process right, there should be no need for appeals. There will obviously be an interim period that will not be entirely satisfactory, but the package on the table is all that we could have hoped for and is one for which I am particularly grateful.
Lord Newton of Braintree
My Lords, I am going quietly on Amendment 54, but not on Amendment 53. I will go more loudly, but briefly, on this. I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, on her success. I thank the Government for giving her that success, even though she is showing some signs of looking the gift horse in the mouth. I have one very small point that is not about appeals, but about suicides. I declare an interest as the chair of a mental health trust.
One of the problems with the coronial system has been the great inconsistency between the verdicts of coroners, some of whom, it is alleged—I am not an expert on this but I have been to a number of meetings with people who have studied it very carefully—prefer to find suicides as accidental deaths to spare the families. I cannot vouch for that, but that is what is reported by reputable researchers. The Department of Health is devising a suicide prevention strategy. I do not see how such a strategy can be devised, let alone measured, unless there is consistency in coronial verdicts around the country. One thing that is required from a chief coroner’s office is the need to ensure consistency. I should be grateful for an assurance that part of the role envisaged will be to seek to bring about greater consistency in the practice of coronial courts around the country. I believe that I see the noble Baroness nodding her head at that proposition.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
My Lords, with reluctance I want to speak against the proposition of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff. Before I do so, I reiterate all that my noble friend Lady Miller and others have said in this mini-debate about the worth of the efforts of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and indeed about how exemplary the combination of her efforts and those of others in this House as well as in outside bodies has been in bringing about the change in government policy that we have heard about today. That really is democracy in action.
However, there is one practical issue here that may not be sufficiently understood. I speak as one who at the start of his legal career was a coroner’s officer and indeed, on occasion, sat as a deputy coroner. The change we are making in creating the chief coroner post is, I believe, fundamental, and I think that it will have more ramifications than many realise. There is positive merit in waiting to see how it pans out over the next few years. Surely we do not want to rush into the creation of a new appeals mechanism without having the benefit of the experience of that changed situation. For that reason, if no other, I think that the position to which we have come—that is, acceptance of the chief coroner but at this stage not approval of a brand new appeals mechanism, especially in view of the fact that coroners’ juries find as to fact—may be the right one for the time being.
Baroness Fookes
My Lords, when I last spoke in this Chamber it was on the occasion of the debate in advance of Remembrance Sunday introduced by my noble friend Lord Selkirk. In that debate, I expressed my grave dismay at the then prospect of the duties of the chief coroner being distributed between departments and various officials.
I spoke, and speak now, from a very precise position. I am honoured to be the president of the War Widows Association of Great Britain. Its members know above all others what it is like to suffer the loss of loved ones and to go through military inquests. Over the years, they told me in no uncertain terms how difficult it was if a coroner was inexperienced in dealing with inquests, the nature of the war scene and the military ethos. To put it bluntly, the Ministry of Defence could pull the wool over the eyes of coroners not experienced in wartime matters. As time went on and certain coroners became expert, life became very much easier. My concern when the last Bill, now an Act, went through was that there should be coroners who had experience and had been properly trained to deal with this particular aspect of the coroner’s duties. Therefore, one can imagine my dismay when this was apparently thrown out of the window and it was decided not to take it further.
I am therefore very pleased indeed that wiser counsels have prevailed, and I know that many have been involved in the persuasion. I am grateful to the Government for largely, if not entirely, rescuing the whole coronial system. I think it would be churlish not to offer my sincere thanks for this particular mercy. Since I feel I am getting a bit aged to be a rebel, I am also relieved that I have been spared that tonight.
Lord Craig of Radley
My Lords, I, too, put on record my appreciation for the Government’s decision, having been involved at various times in this subject. As I recall, a chief coroner has been identified, but I cannot remember whether he has actually been appointed; he may or may not still be around. It would be extremely helpful if the Minister made very clear, having decided to go ahead with the chief coroner, that the appointment will be filled expeditiously, as will those of the medical officers and others who will assist him. To pass the Bill into law to include a chief coroner, without an assurance that those posts will be filled promptly, would be something of a pyrrhic victory.
Viscount Slim
My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister and the Government. I have worked rather hard to see that we have a chief coroner. One little area that is not often remembered is that when it comes to the military side, the widows, the mothers and the dead servicemen actually still belong to the Ministry of Defence, which is responsible for them. These people should not be left out of the thoughts of this new chief coroner—which I am so pleased about. I hope that on his introduction to this very important post, he goes across to meet and talk to the Ministry of Defence, and perhaps visits a battle zone—this would be rather sensible. He would then get the feel and the ethos, as the noble Baroness has just said, of military thinking on these occasions.
I end by saying one further thing which I have said on this subject in your Lordships’ House before. At the moment, thank God, the casualty and death rate for war is fairly steady and fairly low. However, some things can go wrong very quickly in an operational area, and somewhere the coroner’s system has to be geared up for a higher casualty rate coming in across its bows. At present, we are waiting one to two years for conclusion. If the rate was to increase and the coroners did not have a plan for this, then I can see bereaved families, widows and mothers waiting up to four years before conclusion. For the sake of the chief coroner, I hope that he will get to know the military and will look ahead for, God forbid, worse rates of death.
Lord Howarth of Newport
My Lords, I hope that I will have the tolerance of the House if I briefly ask the Minister a question about a somewhat tangential issue. The Lord Chancellor is quoted on page 8 of today's Times as saying:
“Everyone is agreed that the priority is raising the standards of coroners’ inquiries”.
I take it that he was referring to coroners’ inquiries of all sorts.
Following the Government’s extremely welcome acceptance of the need to appoint a chief coroner, will the Minister assure us that they will also accept the will of Parliament as expressed in the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 that an office of coroner for treasure should be established? Will he acknowledge that the appointment of a national coroner for treasure would lead to the elimination of lengthy delays, excessive bureaucracy and errors, as well as to savings in overall public expenditure as the activities of coroners in 45 local authority areas would be replaced by the streamlined, specialised work of a single national coroner, probably supported by a single staff member? If the noble Lord is unable to give that assurance, will he undertake to reconsider the matter urgently, and to correct the failure by the Ministry of Justice to include reference to the treasure process in the draft charter for the coroner service?
Lord Bach
My Lords, it does not seem like a year since this House decisively rejected the Government’s firm plan to abolish the position of chief coroner by a majority of 112. It was a vote in all parts of the Chamber of which the House could be proud then and can be even prouder today. Of course I join in congratulating the Government. However, in this instance the congratulations must be slightly modified. The Government have given in at the 59th minute of the 11th hour. They deserve credit, but as the noble Lord, Lord McNally, will recognise from his position at the Ministry of Justice, there is an analogy with someone in the dock who does not deserve the credit that someone who makes an early admission of guilt deserves. This is the equivalent of a change of plea at the moment when the jury is being sworn in. It is worthy of credit, and the judge will pass a lesser sentence, but he will not show as much leniency as if the Government had given way some time earlier. It is better late than never—but it is pretty late.
Of course, this is all immensely to the credit of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. She deserves huge congratulations on her success today. She will be the first to say that it is not just her success, but that of others as well. However, she deserves particular praise for her brave refusal to back down over this long period. So does the Royal British Legion—I declare my membership of a local branch—and other organisations that the noble Baroness mentioned such as INQUEST and Liberty, and those on all sides of the House and elsewhere who stayed firm and argued the case for the chief coroner.
Noble Lords should make no mistake—sometimes these things ought to be said—that the Government over the past 12 months used every means and blandishment, and a few extra, to persuade, if I may put it gently, those who dared stand out of the error of their ways. Individual meetings with the Lord Chancellor were not the worst of it. Seductive compromises were offered one day and a hard line taken the next. There were meetings and letters galore. I hate even to contemplate the pressure that the brave Conservative Member Andrew Percy, who dared to challenge the Government in another place, must have come under at a certain stage. I do not want to sound churlish—I hope that that is not my style—but I do not think the congratulations are quite as deserved in this case as perhaps they were earlier this afternoon.
I have no doubt that our Justice Minister, the noble Lord, Lord McNally, played an important role in this. I also am in no doubt that the Sun, which I know many noble Lords read regularly, also played a pretty important role at the last moment. For anyone who has forgotten what they read in the Sun yesterday: they will have seen a story and then an editorial that condemned the Government in no uncertain terms for the stance that they were then taking. No. 10 reacted extraordinarily quickly. The Prime Minister’s spokesman spoke early yesterday afternoon and the change was announced yesterday evening—perhaps coincidence; probably not.
Whatever the result, the Government have done the right thing. They have accepted the chief coroner. That was argued for on all sides of this House during the passing of the Act, which was only two years ago. It is a great pleasure to be able to congratulate the Government on what they have done, but I ask the Minister who will answer this debate why Section 40 on appeals is being removed. If I remember rightly, many noble Lords took part in those debates, so why is it being removed? Among the strong and powerful arguments in report after report in the past decade, and eventually during the debate on the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 for the setting up of this post of chief coroner, the possibility of appeal on a number of issues, which is not huge, was set out in Section 40(2), as it was well nigh impossible to appeal under the present system. The only remedy, as we have heard, is judicial review, which is time consuming. As the Public Law Project argued:
“The cost of bringing a judicial review claim is considerable: in the region of £10,000 to £20,000 for a straightforward case, higher for a more complex matter. If a claimant is unsuccessful, they are likely to be liable for the defendant’s costs as well as their own. They are therefore looking at a legal bill of upwards of £30,000 if they lose, and they must be prepared for this eventuality, bearing in mind the unpredictability of judicial review proceedings and costs orders”.
We believe that it would be preferable for the chief coroner to have the power that Parliament gave him or her during the passage of that Bill, which was agreed on an all-party basis. That sensible step which we all agreed should not be implemented straight away—that is perhaps the answer to the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury—and that there should be a delay between the time the Bill was enacted and this section was implemented. There was no intention from any party that the appeals process would begin at once. If it remained in the Act it would be there if some time in the future a Lord Chancellor felt able to bring it in under the guidance of the chief coroner at the time. To abolish Section 40, which is what the Government propose, is the wrong thing to do.
If the noble Baroness were to put the matter to a vote—I can understand if she does not wish to do so—we on this side would support her. We regret that Section 40 is being taken out. However, I do not want to end on a depressing note. We are grateful to the Government for the action that they have taken.
Lord McNally
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bach, for that non-churlish response. He must have been thinking of some earlier Administration when he talked about the main drive of government policy being an attempt to please the Sun.
This has been a very useful debate and I hope that I can give some reassurances. I cannot give reassurances on the question of appeals. As my right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor said in his letter, to extend,
“the appeals system was by far the most expensive element of the original Chief Coroner role proposal”.
The noble Lord, Lord Bach, as with most of the proposals, including that in the Division we had today, is rather cavalier about costs. I am afraid that the Government cannot be. I also think that enough doubts about the idea of appeals were expressed in the responses to make it prudent not to proceed with that at the moment. We have all been in politics long enough to know that simply to leave the appeals system hanging there would almost certainly invite the next campaign on this issue to commence straight away.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
My Lords, I have listened carefully to the debate and I am indebted to all those who have contributed to it. I feel quite humble in responding because many noble Lords have far greater experience than me in certain specific areas. The Minister has gone a very long way and we have the essence of what we need. I recognise that there is disagreement over the appeals system, but there was no disagreement over the chief coroner, and that is what we have. So that noble Lords do not remain in suspense, I have concluded that it would not be appropriate to divide the House, but I would like to make one or two concluding remarks.
The appeals system that would have been put in place would have been precisely on the finding of fact to ascertain that the process to find facts had been correct so that the correct verdict was given. You cannot have a consistent verdict if you do not have consistent facts. Indeed, for families who know all the facts, that is where they achieve closure. Some people may have ongoing difficulties and feel bitterness over what has happened, but in the coronial system if they know that they have been heard and that all the facts have been looked at properly, that marks the start they need in order to achieve closure of their grief.
I am delighted at the reassurance given that we will appoint a chief coroner with all due speed, and I am glad that the Government will heed the suggestion made by my noble friend Lord Slim that there should be a comprehensive induction programme for whoever takes the post. I also ask the Government to proceed as requested with the appointment of the relevant medical officers, because the victims of medical accidents need to know that the facts will be properly interpreted and represented to the coroner, particularly as coroners are not medically trained and are therefore dependent on the medical advice they receive.
It is to be hoped that the new charter will represent a way forward. The annual report will be read by many of us with great interest to see whether our expectations have been met. In an ideal world, in a few years’ time the annual reports will say that we have a good complaints process, that there is good resolution of complaints and that an appeals system as originally envisaged is no longer needed. I sincerely hope that there will be no need to come back to Parliament to try to reinstate Section 40, but that question remains hanging in the air tonight. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord McNally
That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 54.
Lord Newton of Braintree
My Lords, I am still going quietly, I shall say at the outset, but not, I will say to my noble friend Lady Fookes, on the basis that I am too old to be a rebel.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 55.
Lord McNally
That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 56.
Lord McNally
My Lords, this amendment concerns a technical matter which has to go on to the record. It should have been moved in an earlier grouping. It refers to Her Majesty’s Stationery Office. I made my maiden speech in this House on the privatisation of Her Majesty’s Stationery Office. On Report in March, your Lordships’ House passed government amendments that inserted the Advisory Council on Public Records, the Keeper of Public Records and the Public Record Office into Schedule 5 to the Bill. The intention was and is simply to put the administrative entity of the National Archives and one of its advisory bodies on a statutory footing, thereby strengthening its ability to perform an important cultural function. This further amendment, to insert Her Majesty’s Stationery Office into the same schedule, serves a similar purpose and therefore represents a minor technical amendment rather than a substantive policy change. It is supported by the chief executive of the National Archives, who is also Keeper of Public Records, and has been agreed with Buckingham Palace.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 57 to 62.
Charities Bill [HL]
(13 years ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Verma
“(4) This section is subject to section 11 (which makes special provision for Chapter 2 of this Part onwards).”
Baroness Verma
My Lords, I hope to be able to keep my contribution relatively short. I will give a brief explanation of the drafting amendment that we have put down. I will also mention the review of the Charities Act 2006, which will include consideration of the substantive issue that lies behind this amendment.
The amendment responds to the point that was raised in Committee by my noble friend Lord Phillips of Sudbury. As the law stands, there are two subtly different definitions of charitable purpose that are used in different contexts. The definition of charitable purpose in Clause 2 is a definition which applies generally; that is, in legislation generally and in documents such as trust deeds, and in England and Wales as well as, for certain purposes, Scotland and Northern Ireland. The definition of charitable purpose in Clause 11 has a much more limited application. It applies only in England and Wales and only to provisions derived from the Charities Act 1993.
The initial suggestion of my noble friend Lord Phillips was that the two definitions should be combined into one. This was not an option, however, as the rules for consolidation Bills constrain the drafter from making any changes that would alter the meaning of the current law, so both definitions of charitable purpose had to be consolidated into the Charities Bill.
The remaining concern of my noble friend Lord Phillips was that a reader of the legislation could miss the fact that there are two subtly different definitions of charitable purpose that apply in different contexts. He suggested certain drafting amendments to address this point. The amendment we have put down deals with the issue more simply by placing a flag at the end of Clause 2 to alert the reader to the existence of the separate definition of charitable purpose in Clause 11. As I said during Committee stage, we recognise that there is a more fundamental point that ought to be considered; namely, whether it is possible to have one definition of charitable purpose rather than the two that exist in the current law. Although we could not consider such a change in this Bill, I do undertake for it to be included in the review of the Charities Act 2006.
My noble friend Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts has been appointed to undertake the review of the Charities Act 2006. He has recently chaired the red tape task force, the sensible and practical recommendations of which have been widely welcomed by the charity sector. Also, as an opposition Front-Bench spokesperson during the previous Administration, he led on the Companies Act 2006 and the Charities Act 2006. His significant experience makes him ideally suited to lead this review and I am sure that your Lordships will join me in welcoming his appointment.
The aims of the review will be twofold: to report on the operation and effectiveness of the provisions of the Charities Act 2006; and to consider whether further changes could be made to improve the legal and regulatory framework for charities. The terms of reference are broadly drawn to reflect these aims. I have placed a copy of the terms of reference in the House Library and they are available on the Cabinet Office website. The review is expected to report before Summer Recess in 2012 and a copy of the report will be laid in Parliament.
My noble friend Lord Hodgson has confirmed that he will consider the concern of my noble friend Lord Phillips about the two definitions of charitable purpose as part of his review. In the mean time, although this amendment will not resolve the underlying problem, it will ensure that readers of the legislation are aware that there are two definitions of charitable purpose. As such it is helpful. I beg to move.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
My Lords, I am grateful for what my noble friend the Minister said in respect of the amendment in her name. I can only concur with and applaud it, because, in my view, the Bill as drafted, given the limitations of consolidation statute, was none the less a big elephant trap for any non-charity lawyer who waded into the same, not realising that the definition in Clause 2 was subtly but significantly different from the definition in Clause 11 of the same phrase. It may seem odd for a charity lawyer to have, as a near-passion, the wish to try and keep charity law as simple, direct and plain as possible; but that has always been my position. It was during the course of the Charities Bill in 2006, when I led for these Benches, and remains an abiding passion in an age that seems to get more and more complicated and trammelled by regulation and so on. Therefore, I am glad at least that we have got this in the Bill. I perfectly understand the limitations of these consolidation statutes and therefore cannot complain that something more has not been done. I am grateful that it will be on the agenda of my noble friend Lord Hodgson; whom I congratulate, if that is the right word, on being appointed to undertake this review. I am glad that I was the author of this review clause in the 2006 Act. The noble Lord can blame me.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
I am sure. We will all assist him as best we can because I know that he, too, wants to try to make charity law as accessible as possible to the volunteers who are the heart and soul of the charity sector. We will have a lot of excitement when we come back to this House with a new Bill that will, I hope, do a bit of deck clearing. With that, I silence myself.
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts
My Lords, I will not detain the House for long, but I am very happy to confirm what my noble friend has said from the Front Bench. The terms of reference that I have been given are widely drawn. While obviously a lot of our time will be spent on the big issues that affect the sector, we shall want to make sure we do as much tidying up as we can of some of the more specific and technical points, of which this is one.
Already some of the professional bodies such as the Charity Law Association are in touch about some of the things they would like cleared up. I am sure there will be no shortage of views and things for us to do. I very much hope that we get a lot of input, not just from the usual suspects in the sector, but also views from the general public because it is important they should have some say in how their charity sector is structured in the future. Certainly we will make sure—I would be much too frightened not to—that my noble friend’s point is addressed some time between now and next July.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, this may be one of the shorter Reports in your Lordships’ House. I am grateful to the Minister for the considerable effort I know she has taken to accommodate concerns that were raised by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury. I note he says that charity law should be as simple, direct and as plain as possible. The “as possible” part is the catch-all phrase there because charity law is never simple, direct or plain. Therefore, when welcoming the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, to his post in the review of legislation, I do not envy him the position at all. He has been set quite a challenge.
It shows this House at its best that concerns were raised—when we spoke in Committee, I said to the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, that I had to go back to read what had been said at Second Reading to get the gist, because the issue was so technical—and I hope the Minister and her officials have managed to accommodate them. As I say, it is the House at its best when an issue is raised and Ministers take it away and come back with a solution, which satisfies all. I am also happy to accept the Minister’s amendment.