Northern Ireland (Ministerial Appointment Functions) (No. 2) Regulations 2023
Steve Baker Excerpts(2 years, 8 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the Northern Ireland (Ministerial Appointment Functions) (No. 2) Regulations 2023 (S.I., 2023, No. 1061).
I am very grateful to see you in the Chair, Mrs Latham. As everyone here knows, the Government are committed to the Belfast/Good Friday agreement and to seeing the return of locally elected, accountable government in Northern Ireland. However, in the continued absence of a devolved Government, Ministers are determined to act in the best interests of the people of Northern Ireland to ensure that public appointments are made and public confidence is maintained until the Executive is restored. That is why we brought forward primary legislation in December last year, which among other things allowed us to make urgent public appointments. We did that for two bodies initially, and then in July we brought forward a further measure to add 12 offices to the list.
Today, unfortunately, the Executive have still not returned. Therefore, following a request from the Executive Office and a further request from the Department of Justice in relation to senior Police Service of Northern Ireland appointments, a second statutory instrument was brought forward, which includes a further list of specified offices that have been identified by the Executive Office as urgent and critical.
This instrument adds to the list in section 6 of the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2022, enabling the Secretary of State to exercise Northern Ireland Ministers’ appointment functions in relation to these offices and will allow for appointments to be made to the relevant bodies, continuing to safeguard the quality and delivery of public services in Northern Ireland. These are important offices, and the exercise of appointment functions in the coming months is critical for the continuation of good governance in Northern Ireland.
Before I sit down, may I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for High Peak, who finishes his duties as the Department’s Whip today? He has done a superb job for us with great diligence and skill. It is a testament to his abilities that I have not rebelled once since he became my Whip. I note that I am surrounded today by my hon. Friends the Members for High Peak, for Workington and for Newcastle-under-Lyme, who all join us from the Whips Office—I cannot think what they are worried about.
Mr Baker
I join the hon. Member for Putney in congratulating Jon Boutcher. Of course, the need to make his appointment was one reason why we laid this instrument as early as we did, and I am grateful to her for understanding that. That very much speaks to the point that my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Eddisbury made about progress. In relation to the Chief Constable, we have now made that appointment.
I have a complete list of appointments here, but I suspect it would take me about 10 to 15 minutes to go through each of them. There is a range: on the one hand, we have already made an appointment, with Jon Boutcher; with other appointments, the process is in progress. Of course, this is all subject to the normal process for appointments: we have taken the power of Northern Ireland Ministers to make these appointments; we have not diverted at all from the normal process otherwise. For some of these appointments, the process will be taking place; for others, it is still to take place. With the Committee’s assent, I will write to my hon. and learned Friend, rather than taking 10 to 15 minutes now, as there seems to be general assent. I will gladly set everything out for him.
To finish, having only been here for five minutes, it is probably not going too far to say that, before I was appointed to the Government, I gave a keynote speech for the Hansard Society, launching its review of delegated legislation. It is a common problem that legislation comes forward to such Committees and is dealt with swiftly, precisely because it is uncontroversial and enjoys broad assent, as this instrument does. My hon. and learned Friend is right to observe that, in a sense, this is not the way to handle a straightforward matter. I would commend to everybody—including the hon. Member for Putney, if she is interested—that Hansard Society review of delegated legislation. It is important that all Governments are able to deal with delegated legislation effectively and efficiently and without too much scrutiny when it is not necessary or, on the other hand, too little when more might be of benefit.
Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)
On the contrary, as the Minister will recall, the late and sainted Eric Forth would always point out to us that it is the uncontroversial legislation that goes through uncontested that leads to the greatest lapses in our legislative duty.
Mr Baker
I am extremely grateful to my right hon. Friend. He and I have a long history together on such matters, perhaps in more controversial circumstances. The Committee will hopefully agree with me that the business before us—adding to the list of appointments we can make in the absence of Northern Ireland Executive Ministers—is uncontroversial and is necessary for the continued functioning of government in Northern Ireland. I hope the Committee will join me in approving these regulations.
Question put and agreed to.
Draft Representation of the People (Franchise Amendment and Eligibility Review) (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2023
Steve Baker Excerpts(2 years, 9 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Representation of the people (Franchise Amendment and Eligibility Review) (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2023.
I am delighted to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Robert. I am most grateful to members of the Committee for being here. This Government are committed to protecting the integrity of our democratic process, and we have delivered on that commitment. Last year, Parliament passed the Elections Act 2022, which includes changes to ensure that UK elections remain secure, fair and modern. I am glad to introduce today a statutory instrument that flows directly from that Act. This debate follows the passing by Parliament of an equivalent instrument for Great Britain. The regulations were approved last week in the other place. Taken together, this instrument and the instrument for GB provide a single package of measures covering non-devolved local elections in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. That means that, in practice, these measures will apply to both local council elections and Assembly elections in Northern Ireland.
The Elections Act amended the franchise to reflect the UK’s new relationship with the EU and to protect the rights of UK citizens living in EU countries. That moved us to the principle of a mutual grant of rights through agreement with individual EU member states. Before I address the detail of the provisions, I will make it clear that the long-standing voting rights of Irish citizens remain unchanged. Likewise, the voting rights of Maltese and Cypriot citizens, as Commonwealth citizens, are not affected by these changes.
The Elections Act provides that two groups of citizens from other EU countries will be entitled to vote. Qualifying EU citizens from EU member states that have bilateral agreements with the UK will have the right to vote and stand in relevant elections. We also preserve the existing rights of all EU citizens who chose to make the UK their home prior to the end of the implementation period. As such, EU citizens with retained rights will continue to have the right to vote and stand.
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on his appointment on Friday. One understands the situation and what this delegated legislation does, but I wish to raise the issue of reciprocal rights. The explanatory memorandum explains that British citizens living in France and Germany, for example, where we do not have reciprocal rights, will not be allowed to vote in their local elections. On the continent, in those countries where we do have reciprocal rights—I think those countries are Spain, Portugal, Luxembourg and Poland—that does not exist. What efforts is my hon. Friend making to ensure that there is—how can I put it?—a level playing field when it comes to local elections?
Mr Baker
I am most grateful to my hon. Friend. In the first place, I am grateful that our country has decided that we are on the moral high ground in giving those retained rights to EU citizens. I will certainly take up what he said in his intervention with my colleagues in the Foreign Office. He will understand that it is for them first and foremost to talk with European nations. He makes a good point; I will take that matter up with Foreign Office Ministers and write to him.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
The impact assessment makes it clear that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay mentioned, the bilateral treaties at the moment are with four EU states—Poland, Spain, Luxembourg and Portugal. The line there is that the UK
“remains open to negotiating treaties with other EU Member States”.
Can my hon. Friend the Minister clarify whether we are proactively seeking that by approaching other EU states to see if they are interested in that reciprocity; whether we are open to approaches from them; or whether we have done our bit, got agreements from four of those countries and that is it?
Mr Baker
Again, I am grateful to my hon. Friend. The best thing that I can do is ask Foreign Office Ministers to write to him setting out their plans. After all, it is their responsibility first and foremost; my responsibility is Northern Ireland. I hope that he will forgive me if I do not trespass on their responsibilities and commit. He makes a good point, and I think that Foreign Office Ministers will wish to assure him that they are reaching out.
The chief electoral officer has a legal duty to ensure that the electoral register remains accurate. The instrument requires the chief electoral officer, as registration officer for the whole of Northern Ireland, to conduct a one-time review to determine the eligibility of all registered EU citizens. That bespoke eligibility review is designed to be fair and transparent for review subjects, and to minimise burdens on the chief electoral officer. As far as possible, it has been based on and benchmarked against existing practice and processes. The processes for Northern Ireland contained in the instrument mirror those for Great Britain.
Initially, the chief electoral officer will use data already available to them to confirm an elector’s continued eligibility without the need for and elector to take any action. Where the chief electoral officer is unable to confirm eligibility using existing data, the instrument requires them to contact the elector to request the information necessary to determine eligibility. In the event of no response, the chief electoral officer must make at least three attempts to contact the elector in writing, and at least one attempt to contact the elector in person, before they determine them to be ineligible.
It is clearly important that EU citizens are aware whether they remain on the register. Consequently, the instrument prescribes that all those reviewed will be notified of the franchise change and the review outcome. In addition, the instrument prescribes the contents of all review communications to ensure clarity and consistency.
Where a person is deemed ineligible and removed from the register on the basis of non-response, they will be invited to reapply if they believe they are eligible to do so. We anticipate that the end-to-end review process will take up to three months to complete. The chief electoral officer, in common with registration officers in England, will have a nine-month implementation window, from 7 May 2024 to the 31 January 2025, to undertake the one-time review.
On completion of the review process, the Secretary of State will write to the chief electoral officer in Northern Ireland to request data relating to the operation of the review process. That is slightly different from the position in England and Wales, where registration officers will report to the Electoral Commission. The franchise change will apply only to polls that are non-devolved, and, for Northern Ireland, will cover local and Assembly elections.
Some changes needed to reflect the candidacy changes and their implementation for Northern Ireland were made in the Elections Act. In practice, candidacy processes at local and Assembly elections will not change significantly. I hope that, having set out the details and having committed to write in response to interventions from my hon. Friends, we can ensure that colleagues are satisfied with our commitment to reach out to other European nations. I look forward to hearing from the hon. Member for Putney.
Mr Baker
In relation to future bilateral treaties, as we have said, the UK remains open to negotiating fully reciprocal bilateral agreements where EU member states are interested in doing so. With the agreement of the Committee, I will write to the hon. Lady and place a copy of the letter in the Library, and ensure that it is drawn to the attention of all Members. Some EU countries already grant local voting and candidacy rights to third-country nationals, including UK nationals, unilaterally. In most cases, that is subject to minimum residency requirements.
We will work with councils in Northern Ireland to ensure that the requirements are adequately communicated. I set out earlier the need for the chief electoral officer to approach EU citizens three times if there is no response, and make one approach in person. That is a robust way of ensuring that people keep their right to vote if they are entitled to do so. On additional resources, I do not have immediately to hand the relevant note, so I will write to the hon. Lady. We think that what we are doing is reasonable and in line with present practice. I recognise that the one-time review will impose some burdens, but I will write to her.
Question put and agreed to.
Oral Answers to Questions
Steve Baker Excerpts(2 years, 11 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)
The UK Government are acutely aware of the cost of living pressures experienced in all parts of the UK since the onset of war in Ukraine. We provided an estimated £2 billion of financial support to Northern Ireland, including more than £1 billion in the form of the energy price guarantee and the additional £600 payment to help households with the rising cost of energy. Tackling inflation continues to be a top priority for this Government.
Patrick Grady
Every country in the world is having to deal with the impact of the war in Ukraine and the impact of the pandemic, but only one country is having to deal with the impact of Brexit, which is what is driving up prices and the cost of living for people in Northern Ireland and across the UK, isn’t it?
Mr Baker
I am inclined just to say no. The reality is that this conversation will keep going to and fro. We have left the European Union and we are staying out of the European Union. Our task is to make sure that we flourish as a nation outside the EU, and I wish the hon. Gentleman would just get behind it and move on.
Chris Stephens
In June this year, according to research by the Trussell Trust, one in six people across Northern Ireland faced hunger, with nearly half of those referred to Trussell Trust food banks being children under the age of 16. In Scotland, primary school children get a £120 uniform grant and secondary school pupils get a £150 uniform grant, but the amount in Wales in Northern Ireland is almost a quarter of that. Given that parents are choosing between spending money on back-to-school supplies or on food, what steps is the Minister taking to ease the cost of living pressures on families in Northern Ireland?
Mr Baker
As I said, we provided a large sum of money to ease cost of living pressures in Northern Ireland. The hon. Gentleman mentions food banks, which are very much on my mind, given the scale of the food bank in Wycombe. I am very well aware of the cost of living pressures in Northern Ireland. We continue to put large sums of money into Northern Ireland, but it would be much better to deal with all these issues in the presence of a restored Executive.
Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)
May I join in the congratulations to my right hon. Friend on his first anniversary? I also thank the new shadow Secretary of State for the huge contribution he has made as vice-chairman of the UK-EU Parliamentary Partnership Assembly. In welcoming the money that has been provided to Northern Ireland to help with the cost of living pressures, does the Minister agree that it would be even better, and more efficiently spent, if the Executive were back up and running?
Mr Baker
Yes, I absolutely do; my right hon. and learned Friend is right on that. Time and again we are asked to intervene, and every time we are asked to intervene that is a call for direct rule. We do not intend to get into direct rule. It would be far better if local decisions were taken by a locally accountable Executive.
Paul Holmes (Eastleigh) (Con)
The Government have shown their commitment to supporting the people of Northern Ireland through the recent increase in the cost of living. In the absence of an Executive—we all accept that one is absolutely necessary—will my hon. Friend assure me that the Government will continue to intervene where necessary for the people of Northern Ireland?
Mr Baker
We will continue to work for the people of Northern Ireland, respecting the devolution settlement. For example, in recognition of the cost of living pressures faced by workers across the UK, the Government increased the national minimum wage rate by 9.7%, to £10.42 per hour for workers aged 23 and over, at the spring Budget. We will continue to be seized of the need to help those least well off.
Richard Thomson (Gordon) (SNP)
The cost of living crisis is clearly continuing to bite hard in Northern Ireland, with footfall at stores across Northern Ireland falling by 5% throughout August. What steps is the Department taking to enable people to take full advantage of the highly privileged economic status and market access that Northern Ireland now has, which this Government have deprived to the rest of the UK?
Mr Baker
I disagree with the hon. Gentleman’s use of the term “deprived”, but I am happy to tell him that next week we have the Northern Ireland investment summit. We are determined to attract private sector investment into Northern Ireland and to promote inclusion in that growth. Northern Ireland has a fantastically vibrant economy, and I very much hope that the least well-off will have opportunities through our investment in skills to develop themselves and to secure more better paying jobs in Northern Ireland, so that they can move on.
Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)
We routinely monitor trends in the Northern Ireland economy. It has the ingredients required for economic success: exceptional talent, creativity and innovation. Although challenges persist, recent indicators suggest resilience and the potential for growth. This Government remain committed to fostering a productive environment for economic development and prosperity in Northern Ireland. I look forward to our investment summit between 12 and 13 September—next week—which is a fantastic opportunity to showcase Northern Ireland’s economic potential to the world.
Mr Robertson
I thank the Minister for that encouraging response. He will be aware that Northern Ireland’s largest trading partner by a very long way is Great Britain. It is therefore important that there is frictionless trade between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, so will he update the House on what discussions he has had on the future operation of the green channel?
Mr Baker
One of our priorities now is the successful implementation of the Windsor framework and that green channel. We will continue to have conversations with colleagues in the Cabinet Office who lead the Windsor framework taskforce. I assure my hon. Friend that we are determined to ensure that that system works as seamlessly for everyone.
Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance)
Will the Minister confirm that at next week’s investment conference the Government will proactively market Northern Ireland’s dual market access under the Windsor framework?
Mr Baker
Yes, I can confirm that. I am absolutely determined that we shall do so. Indeed, next week I shall chair a session on that issue. This is not just about access as of right to the UK market and as a privilege to the EU market; it is also about being under our services regulation, which is an advantage, in combination with access to our free trade agreements, such as the comprehensive and progressive agreement for trans-Pacific partnership. This is a unique opportunity in all of the world, including right across the EU, and I am convinced that he and I, and we all, should make the most of it.
Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab)
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)
Under the Windsor framework, sending parcels to friends and family in Northern Ireland will be as smooth and easy as it is today, removing any burdensome paperwork, costs or delays. Northern Ireland consumers will be able to order from businesses in the rest of the UK and receive goods in the post as they do now, without customs processes or burdensome costs. This will maintain consumer choice for British goods in Northern Ireland. Businesses sending goods to other businesses will use our new green lane.
Jim Shannon
A number of constituents and consumers have contacted me to highlight that many eBay or Amazon providers will no longer ship to Northern Ireland as they state that they cannot afford the enhanced fees, demonstrating that Northern Ireland continues to be treated differently. It is costing small businesses and individuals the ability to shop around. What steps can the Minister take to revisit the framework with our EU counterparts, to ensure free and fair trade throughout the United Kingdom that is clear and easy to follow for all businesses?
Mr Baker
Under the protocol as it was, all parcels would have needed to complete full international customs processes. I believe that the suppliers to whom the hon. Gentleman refers will be making their plans under the protocol as it was. Under the Windsor framework, parcels to consumers will not be subject to those burdensome processes. He reminds us all that we need to redouble our efforts to communicate to suppliers the message that they will be able to take advantage of a new green lane and supply to consumers in Northern Ireland. It is a subject close to my heart, and I can see that it is extremely close to his too.
Aaron Bell (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Con)
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)
The Northern Ireland Budget (No. 2) Bill 2023-24 is progressing through Parliament and is due to be debated in the other House next week. The Secretary of State has used his powers to request information and advice from the Northern Ireland civil service on measures that could generate revenue and improve the sustainability of public finances.
Aaron Bell
I thank my hon. Friend for his answer. I congratulate him and the Secretary of State on their anniversaries and pay tribute to them for all they have done in the past year.
Some have suggested that we could reform the Barnett formula to address the sustainability of public finances in Northern Ireland, but does my hon. Friend agree that that is not a silver bullet, and that trade-offs will need to be made to fund public services?
Mr Baker
I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend for his question. This is a very important point. Although we will remain open to discussing proposals put to us by the Northern Ireland parties, it would not be a silver bullet to reform the Barnett formula. An Executive will still need to make trade-offs when they decide to spend scarce resources. Negotiations between the Welsh Government and the Treasury on a fiscal framework, which included an adjustment to the Barnett formula, took place over seven years, so, with the best will in the world, it is not an issue that can be solved overnight. What we need is a functioning Executive and we stand ready to work with that Executive. In the meantime, we will continue to engage with the Northern Ireland civil service on a range of measures that could improve fiscal sustainability.
Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab)
Early years services are vital for children to reach their potential, but they are underfunded and at risk in Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is the only part of the UK without a childcare strategy. According to the Department for Education, it was delayed again because early years faces potential significant budget reductions. When can hard-pressed families in Northern Ireland expect the childcare strategy? Will the Minister commit to early years services receiving the increased multi-year funding that is needed to invest in children?
Mr Baker
I am glad to welcome the hon. Lady to her place. As she knows, education is devolved in Northern Ireland and it is a matter for the Education Department there to take these decisions, but her point is well made, and I am confident that, when she makes her first visit to Northern Ireland, like me she will be engaging with all parties on just such issues.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)
The cliff edge on veterinary medicines has been removed, protecting the supply of those medicines in Northern Ireland through to 2025, while we work through sustainable, long-term solutions. We are much more optimistic about reaching those solutions in the context of the Windsor framework. There will no longer be any need for costly phytosanitary certificates for each movement of plants staying in the UK. We have paved the way for 11 banned plant species to move again by the time of the next planting season. These were priority cases identified by the industry itself, and we have progressed further cases since announcing the Windsor framework. We are working closely with a wide range of stakeholders to ensure that gardeners, farmers and growers can access plants and seeds from a wide variety of sources.
Ian Paisley
With regards to veterinary medicines, I fear the Minister’s sunny optimism may be somewhat misplaced. After all, his preferred stakeholder—Mr Bernard Van Goethem, the deputy director general for food sustainability—has made it abundantly clear to DEFRA and the UK Government that the negotiations on this matter are “over”. The deal is done. There will be no change to veterinary medicines. This means that insulin will no longer be available in Northern Ireland for animals. Veterinary medicines for botulism—144,000 were issued last year—will no longer be available. What will the Secretary of State and the Minister do about this?
Mr Baker
The hon. Gentleman has presented me with information about which I was not aware beforehand. I am certainly happy to look at what has been said, but what I would say to him is that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister did the deal that no one said could be done. That has transformed the relationship with the European Union, and I am therefore confident that we will be able to deliver a deal on veterinary medicines. As we sometimes say, I do not recognise the information that the hon. Gentleman has presented. It is new to me, and I shall be glad to look at it, but we will certainly have to deliver a deal.
Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con)
The Ulster Farmers Union estimates that 1,700 veterinary medicines could be withdrawn from the market in Northern Ireland unless the Windsor framework is fixed. I urge the Minister to do that.
Mr Baker
Certainly. My right hon. Friend makes her point with great clarity. Of course, having made it on an occasion such as this, it has been heard by a wide range of Ministers, and I am confident that we will be able to redouble our efforts to deliver what we need on veterinary medicines.
Northern Ireland Budget (No. 2) Bill
Steve Baker ExcerptsMonday 4th September 2023
(2 years, 11 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Northern Ireland Budget (No. 2) Act 2023 View all Northern Ireland Budget (No. 2) Act 2023 Debates Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Committee of the whole House Amendments as at 4 September 2023 - (4 Sep 2023)
The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Rosie Winterton)
We now come to—
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I think the Mace is in the wrong place.
The First Deputy Chairman
Very well spotted—it will be moved. Thank you.
Clause 1
Use of resources
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)
Thank you, Dame Rosie, and I am delighted to serve with you in the Chair today as we go through Committee stage of this vital Bill.
In the absence of a functioning Executive, this Bill will allow public services to continue functioning and help to protect public finances in Northern Ireland. I propose to go through the clauses now, and then with the permission of the Committee, respond at the end of the debate to points raised.
Clauses 1 and 2 authorise the use of resources by Northern Ireland Departments and other specified public bodies amounting to £27,403,514,000 in the year ending 31 March 2024 for the purposes specified in part 2 of schedule 1 and subject to the limits set out in subsections (4) to (7) of clause 2. I should remind the Committee that this Bill only sets out the available total resource and capital budget for Northern Ireland Departments of £14.2 billion and £2.2 billion respectively. In the absence of an Executive, it is the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Departments now to make the specific spending decisions to ensure that they live within the budget limits set out in this Bill. The Government recognise that this is not easy and requires difficult decisions.
Clauses 3 and 4 authorise the Northern Ireland Department of Finance to issue out of the Consolidated Fund of Northern Ireland the sum of £22,790,893,000 for the purposes set out in part 2 of schedule 1.
Clause 5 authorises the temporary borrowing by the Northern Ireland Department of Finance of £11,395,447,000, approximately half the sum covered by clause 3. This is a normal safeguard against the possibility of a temporary deficiency arising in the Consolidated Fund of Northern Ireland, and any such borrowing is to be repaid by 31 March 2024.
Clause 6 authorises the use of income by Northern Ireland Departments and other specified public bodies from the sources specified in part 3 of the schedule for the purposes specified in part 2 of the schedule in the year ending 31 March 2024. Clause 7 provides for the authorisations and limits in the Bill to have the same effect as if they were contained in a Budget Act of the Northern Ireland Assembly. It also modifies references in other pieces of legislation to the Northern Ireland estimates, which would normally form part of the Assembly’s supply process. Clauses 8 and 9 are self-explanatory, in that they deal with such matters as interpretation and the short title.
Finally, the schedule to the Bill sets out for each Northern Ireland Department the amount of money authorised for use, the purposes for which it can be spent and other sources of income from which it can draw. Part 1 of the schedule sets out the amount of resources authorised for use by each Northern Ireland Department and other public bodies in clauses 1 and 2 and the sums of money granted to each Northern Ireland Department and other bodies in clauses 3 and 4 for the year ending 31 March 2024.
Part 2 of the schedule sets out the purposes for which resources under clause 2 and money under clause 4 can be used by each Northern Ireland Department and other bodies for the year ending 31 March 2024. Finally, part 3 of the schedule sets out the sources from which income can be used by each Northern Ireland Department and other bodies for the year ending 31 March 2024.
I hope I have provided the Committee with sufficient detail on the intended effect of each provision in the Bill. We have also published more detailed information in respect of each of the Northern Ireland Department’s spending plans through the main estimates, which the Secretary of State laid as a Command Paper on 3 July. I look forward to hearing Members’ views on the Bill and their contributions, and with the leave of the House I will later endeavour to respond to as many points as possible when I wind up.
Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab)
It is an honour to serve under your chairship, Dame Rosie, in this Committee. I will keep my remarks brief to allow us to hear from the Northern Ireland parties on Third Reading.
Once again we come together to debate legislation that should be dealt with in Stormont. We still have civil servants running Departments with restricted powers, trying to plug a gap of £800 million and unable to consult with Cabinet Ministers. Stormont is the right and proper place for scrutiny to take place. In this place, we cannot simply provide the level of consideration and scrutiny that this budget deserves.
To quote today’s report from Pivotal,
“managing this situation has been extremely challenging, if not impossible, thanks to two interlocked problems: no political leadership for decision-making and impossibly tight budgets.”
On the first problem, sadly I have seen no sign over the recess that indicates the restoration of the Northern Ireland Executive is any nearer. I would welcome hearing from the Secretary of State what discussions he has had over the summer with parties in Northern Ireland, as the situation is now beyond breaking point.
On the second problem—the budget—we do not oppose the Bill, as services are in desperate need of funding, but the fact is that this budget is not enough to address the problems facing public services in Northern Ireland. A real-terms funding fall of 3.3% means that existing services simply cannot continue to function as normal. The people of Northern Ireland have been left facing cuts to support and increases in charges for everyday necessities during the cost of living crisis. While we appreciate the need to explore avenues to raise revenue, the measures put forward so far may cause more societal damage than the monetary gain is worth. As I have mentioned, we are missing a vital level of scrutiny and accountability for these measures.
We, the Labour party, agree with the principle that local decisions should be made by local politicians, but the situation is now extreme. While there continues to be no functioning Executive, I ask the Secretary of State to consider what he can do within his power to help the people of Northern Ireland. This is a critical state of affairs, and the full impact may not yet be realised, as any overspends will inevitably lead to further cuts the next year. The only viable way forward for Northern Ireland is the restoration of the Executive, and I implore the Secretary of State, the Minister and the main parties in Northern Ireland to ensure that happens sooner rather than later.
Mr Steve Baker
My right hon. and learned Friend makes a very good case. I am conscious that his amendment was not selected, but if he would do me the honour, I would be glad to meet him and hear his opinions on this further. He makes some very good points.
Sir Robert Buckland
I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend, and I would commend him for any discussions he might have with the Audit Committee and its members who have given evidence to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee here in Westminster.
On that note I will close my remarks. It is safe to say that it is sad but a reality at the moment that we have to legislate in this way for the affairs of a part of our United Kingdom that has been given the power of devolution but, for reasons that are all too apparent, is not in a position to exercise that power. It must do so soon, not in the self-interest of the politicians who sit in that place but for the people they are supposed to serve.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 2 to 9 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule agreed to.
The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair.
Bill reported, without amendment.
Third Reading.
Mr Steve Baker
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
I would like to place on record my thanks to all those involved in the passage of the Bill through the House. In particular, I thank the Labour Front Benchers for their constructive approach to the Bill and its necessity. I take this opportunity to welcome the shadow Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), to his place; I know he will hold us to account with great skill, but will seek to pursue the best interests for the people of Northern Ireland. I heard him say “peace, prosperity and progress”. That is what we all want.
I thank Diggory Bailey in the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel for the expert fashion in which he and colleagues drafted the Bill with Northern Ireland counterparts in the Office of Legislative Counsel and the officials in the Department of Finance who assisted greatly in our preparation for this Bill’s passage.
It is no secret that the pressures on Northern Ireland’s public finances are acute. As with the 2022-23 budget, setting the budget was not an easy task but it was necessary to deliver a balanced budget and provide the Northern Ireland Departments with budget clarity to help to get spending under control. As far as possible, we have aimed to protect frontline public services. In recognition of the pressure on the health service, over half the total budget is earmarked for health.
As I have said many times from this Dispatch Box, and as the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has said many times, people in Northern Ireland rightly expect to see these decisions taken in Stormont and not in Westminster. We agree with them. However, until that happens, the Bill will allow public services to continue functioning and help to protect public finances in Northern Ireland. I therefore commend it to the House.
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)
The hour is late, so I will make just a couple of points about the budget. The first is that, of course, political parties in Northern Ireland have elected representatives. We have our own priorities. We have things that we want to see done, and things that we believe should not have money spent on them. Of course we would love to be in a situation where we had a restored Assembly, but I think that the new shadow Secretary of State—whom I congratulate on his appointment—hit the nail on the head when he said that Government had a responsibility to regain the trust of the parties of Northern Ireland, and this Government have singularly failed to do so. One only has to look at the way in which they have handled affairs since the Windsor framework was introduced. They took Members off Committees because they suddenly realised that the arguments being put forward for legislation were not even going to wear in their own party, so at the last minute we had half the Committee replaced. Over the summer period we have had regulations introduced without any chance of public scrutiny. That enabling legislation will have an impact on trade between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom. Now we are heading towards the autumn, when the border operating model will see checks on goods coming from GB into Northern Ireland, as well as Northern Ireland manufacturers and producers finding themselves subject to checks when they try to sell into the GB market. The Government say that they want to restore trust and give us an assurance that we are part of the United Kingdom and a fully integral part of the United Kingdom market, but there is no evidence of that.
Quite honestly, no Government can expect Unionist representatives who have fought to maintain the Union to go back into Stormont to implement policies that will drive a further wedge between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom, and where they will be obliged to accept EU legislation, which even the Windsor framework indicated would be the cause of divergence between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom.
If the Government really want politicians in Northern Ireland to play a role in deciding budgets and how they are spent, they first of all have to accept that Unionists cannot and should not be expected to participate in the demise of the Union by having to sit in an Assembly that would be forced to implement the very policies that they believe are detrimental to the Union. It would be hypocritical for DUP Ministers and Unionist Ministers to sit in the Assembly and by law—because the courts have ruled on it—have to implement something that their colleagues could be standing here in this place condemning and saying was detrimental to the Union. There is an onus on the Government to recognise that the Windsor framework has not sorted out the issues and that it has made them worse. I think that October will show that it has made them worse, and if we want devolution restored, it has to be on the basis of—
Mr Baker
I am listening carefully, and I appreciate the tone in which the right hon. Gentleman is delivering his remarks, but I have stood here at least twice and said that we recognise that this is a hard compromise for Unionists and Eurosceptics. I think it has to be said that the European Union has its own stakeholders. Personally, I was among those who said for a long time that we could have administrative and technical solutions to deal with the issues of Northern Ireland. I worked on that before the referendum and subsequently I saw to it that papers were produced after I resigned from the Government in 2018.
This is a subject extremely close to my heart, but since the right hon. Gentleman raises it again, I would say to him and to all Unionists, of whatever strength of opinion, that one has to choose from the available futures. He knows that; he is a more experienced politician than me. One has to choose from the available futures. The EU has its own stakeholders. We have managed to reset the relationship with Ireland and with the European Union, and that offers the hope of a better future for all of us in western Europe.
On the budget, the surest way to harm the Union now is to allow Northern Ireland to fail, because people vote for change when the world is not working for them. When I look at the available futures for Northern Ireland, I see that the one that is going to work best and best preserve the Union is to get on and get Northern Ireland working. I know that the right hon. Gentleman is frustrated. I am frustrated, too, and I would like to have done better on the Windsor framework, but now we have to choose from the best of the available futures.
Sammy Wilson
That is the kind of answer that worries me as a Unionist, and it should worry many people in the Minister’s party if they listen carefully.
The Minister seems to be taking the view that, because stakeholders in the European Union demand certain things, the Government should respond. This Government have an obligation, first of all, to the country they govern, and that obligation is to make sure the country is not broken up. That should be the main consideration, not what stakeholders in Europe think and not re-establishing relations with the European Union and the Government in Ireland, if that means breaking off and destroying relations with the people of part of the country to which we belong. If that is the approach, I do not think we will get very far. This surrender approach is not a compromise that Unionists can accept. The Minister may find it acceptable, but we do not find it acceptable.
Mr Steve Baker
I know this is a debate on the budget, so I will try to be very brief. I know the right hon. Gentleman does not need me to give him a lecture on the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, but Northern Ireland has had particular problems and a particular status that do not exist in my constituency or anywhere else in Great Britain. We have to face up to the reality of where we are. This Government believe in the Union, but we also respect the Belfast/Good Friday agreement in all its dimensions, and that includes devolution. I implore him to make the Union work.
Sammy Wilson
Of course, the important thing in the Belfast agreement was that the status of Northern Ireland is guaranteed, and that no change would be made to Northern Ireland’s status unless it is decided by the people in Northern Ireland. The people in Northern Ireland did not agree to this change of status, which makes it a vassal state of the European Union.
I do not want to labour the point—I understand that you are being very good in allowing me to emphasise this point, Madam Deputy Speaker—but if the Government wish to see Northern Ireland politicians make decisions on this, they have to respect that there is a Unionist tradition and a nationalist tradition in Northern Ireland. They cannot ignore the Unionist community’s concerns, worries, fears and opposition to the arrangements that are currently in place. Far, far worse, they cannot expect Unionists to co-operate in facilitating the implementation of those arrangements.
On the budget, the Minister has accepted that there is pressure on public services and spending in Northern Ireland. Nearly everyone who has spoken has said that it would be much better for politicians in Northern Ireland to make these decisions. The truth of the matter is that, even if the Assembly were up and running, it could not deliver the basic services that are expected in Northern Ireland and that are funded in the rest of the United Kingdom, because the Government have done two things.
First, since 1922—and the Fiscal Council has made this clear—expenditure on public services in the rest of the United Kingdom has been based on need, but the Government have ignored their own criteria and the basis on which they decide spending in the rest of the United Kingdom. The Holtham formula has not been applied in Northern Ireland. Indeed, the Fiscal Council has estimated that, as a result of need not being considered, we probably have about £322 million less expenditure available than we would have had if we had been treated on the same basis as England, Scotland and Wales.
I do not believe the Assembly’s decisions have always been good, and I do not believe there has always been the wisest use of money, but the problem has not primarily been caused by the Assembly. The Government’s decision not to base this budget on need is causing some of the issues.
Let me give an example. Education spending has gone up by 6% in the rest of the United Kingdom, but it has fallen in Northern Ireland. The overall budget for Northern Ireland this year has fallen by 3.2% in real terms, whereas the budgets for the rest of the United Kingdom went up by 1.7% in real terms. That is partly a result of the fact that the formula used for the rest of the United Kingdom, which is based on need, has not been applied in Northern Ireland. Of course, the situation has been exacerbated by the Government’s decision to claw back the overspend by the Assembly in the last year in which it was sitting, which amounts to about £287 million. So the pressure on public services, which the Minister has lamented, is partly caused by the decisions that have been made here; they will affect the amount of money we have to spend in Northern Ireland.
I could go through the consequences for each Department, but I am not going to do so at this time of the evening. However, in education we have a real-terms cut, and in policing we are already about 1,000 officers below what the New Decade, New Approach and the Patten arrangements said we should have. That situation is going to get worse. Of course, we also now face the expenditure that is going to be necessary because of the problems in schools and the massive expenditure that will result from the data breach in the Police Service of Northern Ireland. So far, no clear indication has been given that the payment for those things will come from anything other than this overstretched budget. It would be useful for the Minister to indicate to us at the end of the debate whether the money that has to be spent on making schools good as a result of the problems with the concrete that was used, and the massive spending that there will be on fines from the Information Commissioner, the relocation of officers and the mitigation measures that have to be taken to protect officers, will still come from the overstretched budget or whether there will be an in-year consequence for that. Alternatively, will it be treated simply the same as the Barnett consequentials? Will the future Barnett consequentials be treated and ignored?
I hope that the Minister fully understands our position. We are not being truculent. We are not piqued because we have not got our way. We are simply making it clear that the ask that is being made, on the political compromises on the Union and on the financial difficulties that this budget would cause, makes it impossible for the Assembly to be up and running again.
Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance)
At the outset, may I join in paying tribute to the outgoing shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Hove (Peter Kyle), and in welcoming to his new role the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn)? We are going to miss him on the UK Trade and Business Commission, on which he has had a very keen interest in recent years in Northern Ireland and the fallout on it from Brexit, which has had major ripple effects through our politics—not least, as we can hear this evening, on the subject of this debate.
It is six weeks on from Second Reading and it is fair to say that the situation in our politics has not improved. There is no sign of any return to devolution; indeed, the response from the right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) to the Minister of State illustrates the lack of realism about the choices that face us collectively in Northern Ireland, and the choices that face Unionism in ensuring that Northern Ireland works for everyone. That is in everyone’s interest, not least the interest of Unionists.
With the public finances, I would argue that the situation is indeed much worse than it was six weeks ago, because the Northern Ireland budget is on an unsustainable trajectory. The budget that was set, as others have said, was not sufficient—it was inadequate—but there is a second layer to this, because the guidance to civil servants in the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2022 does not allow them to take the decisions necessary to live within the measly budget that has been granted.
As the hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) has said, we already have a situation where it is projected that Northern Ireland will overspend by at least £500 million, which is greater than the overspend from the last financial year. That is more than £500 million of public pay pressures before Northern Ireland can even have parity with the settlements that have taken place elsewhere in the United Kingdom. Something is going to have to give. Either an Executive come in with a financial package and can begin to address some of those pressures, or the Government are essentially going to take it on the chin and accept that Northern Ireland will overspend.
That begs the question of what will happen with that overspend in future years. Will it be an albatross around our neck for years to come? Will people be expected to make cuts, or will the Government make cuts in-year to try to balance the budget? I would suggest that trying to do that in-year is now impossible, not least because so much of our budget is linked to salaries. We would lose people, and even if we did we would have to have redundancy payments for them. The only way anyone could possibly balance the budget at this stage is through stopping services completely, which is utterly inconceivable and untenable.
The point has been made that the budget situation is bad and will always be bad, and that having an Executive does not make any difference in that regard. I am not suggesting for one minute that a restored Executive will be a silver bullet, but I suggest to my colleagues who perhaps are dismissing the relevance of devolution at this point that every single stakeholder, when they are asked to comment on the budget crisis, stands up and says, “We want to see an Executive in place.” Whether we are talking about healthcare professionals or people who work in the education sector, the business community or the voluntary community sector, all of them are saying with one voice, “While it is no magic solution, we do want to see the Executive back in place.”
That reference to a restored Executive leads me on neatly to the point I really want to stress regarding a financial package: we need to see a twin-pronged approach to addressing Northern Ireland’s financial needs. Of course we need to address the lack of financial parity and the fact that Northern Ireland is not funded based on need. There is a structural problem of underfunding there, so things are not more generous in Northern Ireland than elsewhere.
I want to pick up on the comments made by the Secretary of State at the weekend to the British-Irish Association in Oxford. The conference is held under Chatham House rules, but I want to comment on what is in the public domain, as released by the Northern Ireland Office itself. In that speech, the Secretary of State was very negative about the concept of a financial package. He talked about money being thrown at Northern Ireland and Executives having squandered financial packages in the past—and there might be an element of truth to that. He said that the Executive need to stand on their own two feet—and, again, that is a worthy aspiration. But I stress that the notion that Northern Ireland can run a balanced budget, invest in public services and drive the economy from a burning platform will never happen. We will see more cuts flowing from budget cuts, and we will end up with decline and more decline. We will end up in a downward spiral in which Northern Ireland becomes ever more dependent, and we will see activity stop and more and more young people leave. That is not the future that I hear the Government articulating in their vision for a prosperous society in Northern Ireland, but what they are doing in terms of the budget belies their very worthy aspiration.
I ask the Minister of State or the Secretary of State to clarify in winding up that something will potentially be on offer when we seek a financial package. I appreciate that that is something that the Government may wish to do solely in the context of a restored Executive rather than up front, but it is important for any financial package to be based around transformation, a proper strategic plan and a programme for government for a restored Executive. That Executive must have clear targets and milestones, and a very clear idea as to how investment can turn Northern Ireland around. That is something on which a restored Executive can work in partnership.
Mr Steve Baker
The hon. Gentleman has just hit the nail on the head: a restored Executive could work in partnership with the Government. But I just emphasise to him that the sum available in this budget is the same as would have been provided were an Executive in place. Just to take further his point about reform and so on, he will know that since 2014, we have put £7 billion into Northern Ireland on top of the block grant. Various commitments to reform have been given in different agreements over the years on various fronts, including education, but it has not happened. I think we are all now getting to a point where we are terribly frustrated on all those fronts. He has hit the nail on the head: we need a restored Executive and then to work in a positive way together to make Northern Ireland function for its people, and that is what we are very willing to do.
Stephen Farry
I am very grateful to the Minister of State for his comments. I largely agree with him, but I will point to a certain disagreement on some aspects. I fully recognise that there have been past financial packages and problems with reform not being fully realised, particularly around integrated education, which is a clear example. We have to do better in that respect. From where we are, I do not see any alternative to trying to do that once again and learning the lessons from what happened in the past. I recognise that we have seen additional funding packages from the UK Government—obviously, we had a major uplift in support to deal with covid and its side effects on the economy, and that support was very welcome—but the fact is, as other Members have said, that our expenditure per head is not based on our need, and that fundamental point has to be recognised.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
We are approaching tomorrow, so I will try not to detain the House too long with the comments I wish to make on this important Bill. At the outset I want to pay tribute, as others have, to the hon. Member for Hove (Peter Kyle), the former shadow Secretary of State, who has now moved on to another post. He visited my constituency on more than one occasion and spent time with businesspeople and community leaders there, which was much appreciated. It was very clear that he wanted to learn as much as he possibly could about Northern Ireland, and he used that information wisely and, on many occasions, powerfully in this House. I hope he continues to maintain that interest, particularly in the hydrogen technologies that he looked at in Northern Ireland, in his new role. I wish him all the very best.
I also welcome the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) to his new post. He brings a level of gravity to the post, which is very important, and I wish him all the very best as well. I hope that, as a supporter of Leeds United, that brings us closer to at least some extent.
When the Minister of State opened the debate this evening, he made it clear that he was putting a budget in place—I think I quote him correctly—that would allow Northern Ireland Departments to continue to function. That was its purpose. Of course, at some level those Departments will continue to function, but they will function on the most stingy budget Bill ever brought forward: a Bill that is a crisis point. Whether there is direct rule, the current formation that we have, or a devolved Assembly operating, the current budget is inadequate. It is a disaster for many of the Departments in Northern Ireland, and it will not allow government to function, or to function normally. Many of those Departments have been cut to the bare bone with regard to what they will be expected to deliver.
What lies at the heart of this budget Bill? Of course, it is a fundamental unfairness. It is unfair in terms of the budget allocation; the formula, or the definition of need, that has been used in relation to Northern Ireland; and the outcome that it will have for the people of Northern Ireland, irrespective of their political or other identity. This is a grossly unfair budget, and it will impact harshly on the people of Northern Ireland. It has been described as a “punishment budget”, and I say frankly to the Secretary of State, his Minister and his team that I think it is designed to be a punishment budget—to punish Northern Ireland because of political circumstances.
If the Government are making an argument tonight that they want an Assembly back, this is a very strange way to go about it, because they are basically saying to the political class in Northern Ireland, “If you go into the Assembly and you try to run it on this pinching, stingy budget, you will deliver to the people of Northern Ireland a disastrous arrangement.” It is no encouragement whatsoever to politicians to go into the Assembly on that one narrow point of the budget. Of course, my right hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) has outlined much more detailed reasons as to why Unionists would not go back into the Assembly on the current arrangements until issues around the Windsor framework and the protocol are resolved.
If ever we needed leadership from the Government that led to decisive outcomes, it would not be this stunt budget that has been pulled in Northern Ireland. It is a pathetic excuse for a budget, and it will damage the opportunity to try to build better relationships not only within this House, but across Northern Ireland. The Government would not dare bring forward these sorts of arrangements for any other part of the United Kingdom—they simply would not dare and they would not have the affront to do it—and it is appalling that they are doing that for this part of the kingdom, Northern Ireland.
The hon. Member for North Down (Stephen Farry) rightly identified that, if we are going to raise more revenue opportunities and invest in the public service, we need resources to do that. I notice that, in our newspapers every day, there are threats that the Northern Ireland Secretary is going to introduce water charges. I have heard this before. When I speak to the head of Northern Ireland Water, she tells me that, to get us back to an even keel in Northern Ireland with regards to the infrastructure of our water service, we need to invest about £2 billion. That is just to get it back to a level playing field and to a state where we could charge people for the water service. Are the Government proposing to put that sort of investment into the process, or are they just saying, “No, we’ll bring in water charges”? It is impossible to bring in water charges and well the Secretary of State knows it.
Just look at the cuts that are being proposed. The shadow Secretary of State rightly identified the problems to do with the concrete in schools across Northern Ireland, yet the education budget is being given the single largest kicking by the Government. Its budget is going to be down by 2.7%. If there is a crisis identified in the schools’ structure—another crisis in the schools’ structure—they just will not have the resources or the capability to resolve that, and we are going to see a major funding crisis there. Justice funding is down by 1.5%; I will come to some more points about that in a moment. Of course, the Department for the Economy funding is down by nearly 1% and this comes in the jaws of the great economic conference the Government are holding in a matter of seven or eight days in Northern Ireland. They are going to invite investors from all over the world and to say, “Come and invest in Northern Ireland—by the way, we have decided to cut the budget of the Department for the Economy, and we have decided to cut the budget for education and for other parts of Northern Ireland”. What sort of a message is that going to send to potential investors? If the Secretary of State has to try to sell these issues to outside investors whenever they decide to cut the budget, I certainly would not want to be a Northern Ireland-based devolved Minister trying to make that point.
Mr Steve Baker
Thankfully, the hon. Gentleman is not writing the speeches for the investment conference next week because, if he were, it would not be very successful. What he knows and I know—and any of us in this House know who knows Northern Ireland—is that it has an amazing, vibrant private sector with terrific entrepreneurs, who are incredibly well grounded in place, care about their communities, and care about making a profit justly while taking care of the environment. They are amazing, inspiring people who can succeed if they are provided with the right capital. If anything, what we are trying to do here, on the point he makes, is to make sure that the very poor quality politics of Northern Ireland ends up matching the very high quality of the private sector. If we could pull that off, Northern Ireland would soar.
Ian Paisley
I thank the Minister, but I was once told, “If you throw a stone among a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest has been hit the hardest.” I think that point maybe hit the Minister just a little bit this evening in that he knows that to say to investors, “By the way, we’ve cut the budget”, is not actually a good look for the Minister.
I want to turn to the issue of the cut to the Department of Justice funding; it is down by 1.5%. We all know that the morale of the police is at an all-time low. The issue of police pay for probationers has been raised in this House. It is very difficult to encourage young and newly qualified police officers that what they are doing is worth while. That is because the Department of Justice is going to be faced with another cut.
We have had the drama in recent weeks of the data breach. Police on the database have, shockingly, been given advice that they should remove themselves from the electoral register. That is one of the ways in which they can now protect themselves, undermining the democratic process for them and their families. The integrity of the MI5 officers who work in Northern Ireland has been undermined. That has a massive cost not just economically and politically, but to our security. Of course today there has been the loss of the Chief Constable, who decided to make decisions at the behest of Sinn Féin; rightly, he has had to resign. Who can calculate at this point what the cost of this will be, not just economically but to policing and to resolving that problem? I am disappointed that today the Secretary of State hedged his bets on who will pay the costs of the data breach; compensation will run into tens of millions of pounds. With Department of Justice funding cut by 1.5%, it is impossible to take that level of cost from that Department. The Secretary of State knows that he must do better, that this is not a good budget and that it will hit some of the Departments in Northern Ireland that mean the most the hardest.
Northern Ireland’s biggest industry and single largest employer still today is agrifood, making good-quality, tasty food. It does so not just for the people of Northern Ireland: the 30,000 or so farms in Northern Ireland make food and feed about 17 million people here in the rest of the United Kingdom. That sector of our economy is facing problems because that industry is about to have its veterinary medicines violated by this Government. Under the Windsor framework, the problems facing our farms are coming at them at 100 mph. Over 50% of our medicines for that sector are going to be denied and the UK Government say, “We are in discussions to resolve this issue.” The fact of the matter is that Europe has made it very clear that those discussions are over, yet the Government still think they can solve that. That crisis is coming too and the Government will need to resolve it and do so very soon. I hope that they do. I hope that they actually listen to these points, instead of getting tetchy about them, and recognise that the threat they have caused to the people of Northern Ireland by such a stingy, nasty budget, in such a procrastinating manner, is not serving the purpose of getting Government back into Northern Ireland, but is putting us further into the doldrums.
Mr Baker
With the leave of the House, Mr Speaker, given that I made a number of interventions during the debate, and given the late hour and a desire not to repeat arguments that we advanced on Second Reading, I think I should just say, “I beg to move.”
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.
Northern Ireland Budget (No. 2) Bill
Steve Baker ExcerptsMonday 10th July 2023
(3 years, 1 month ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Northern Ireland Budget (No. 2) Act 2023 View all Northern Ireland Budget (No. 2) Act 2023 Debates Read Hansard Text Watch Debate Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)
I am likewise most grateful to hon. and right hon. Members for their contributions this evening. I am most grateful, too, that the House again recognises that a Bill such as this is a responsible, but regrettable, step that we need to take as the UK Government to ensure that the delivery of public services can continue in Northern Ireland.
There are no easy decisions in the budget for anyone—not for us as the UK Government, not for Northern Ireland civil servants and not for a future Executive. We recognise that and we know that those decisions will not be going anywhere when an Executive returns.
It has become apparent to me that I and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State may have been misunderstood on this point, so I want to be perfectly clear: on their return, an Executive will face this stark budget and the difficult decisions that follow from it. But we are also perfectly clear that the right people to be taking those tough decisions are locally elected Northern Ireland Executive Ministers. It should not be the UK Government or civil servants plugging the decision-making gap. It is only through the return of Ministers in Northern Ireland that the vital reforms that so many hon. Members have referred to can begin to take place to put public services on a much more effective, efficient and sustainable basis, fit for the demands and opportunities, and indeed the previous advancements in technology, particularly in medicine, of the 21st century.
Let no one mistake what is needed: reform to the health system, to make the most of decades of improvements in healthcare through specialisation; reform to drive down the waste that comes from a divided education system, perpetuating divisions that would be unlawful once children moved from education into work; and reform to foreshorten the shocking delays in Northern Ireland’s justice system and its appalling cost to taxpayers at turn after turn. Only through reforms and more will the public have the services they need and deserve.
What is the prize? In this debate, if I may say so, we have heard two competing visions for Northern Ireland: a vision of Northern Ireland standing with its hand out to the Republic of Ireland for subsidy, and a vision of Northern Ireland standing with its hand out to Great Britain for subsidy. This Government have a better vision than that. We have a vision for a strong and confident Northern Ireland standing on its own two feet, with a balanced budget, underpinning sound public services that have been reformed and are effective, and—yes—are properly audited.
We want to focus on the great, rich tradition and heritage of Northern Ireland’s industrial spirit, on the great commerce of Northern Ireland and on Belfast, one of the great industrial cities of this great United Kingdom. We want private capital flooding into Northern Ireland. We know that the great people of Northern Ireland are entrepreneurs who care about place and community. We know that there is goodwill all around this world for people to invest in Northern Ireland, but they are put off investing by the absence of an Executive.
Stephen Farry
I very much share the vision that the Minister is setting out, but, leaving aside the language around handouts and subsidies, will he at least recognise that to get from A to B the restored Executive will need a partnership with the UK Government to ensure that we can take forward those reforms?
Mr Baker
The hon. Gentleman makes a good point, and I shall come on to it in a moment, but I want there to be no mistake about this, either: as far as I can see from my vantage point, there is a pretty close correlation between poverty and paramilitarism in Northern Ireland. Leaving a primary school surrounded by razor wire in Shankill, I was struck by some of the murals I saw in that housing estate, commemorating and celebrating people who ought not to be celebrated. If I go to other areas of Belfast and elsewhere, there will be murals celebrating the other side.
It is time for Northern Ireland to be moving on. It is time to lift people out of poverty so that they have a better hope than the commemoration of a past that should never have taken place. No more looking back to a past that never was; it is time to look forward to a better future, founded on prosperity and sound public finances. Call me old school, Mr Speaker, but I like a balanced budget. Let us move forward.
Capital investment for a safe return from investors around the world, the rule of law, good government—the conditions are set. We have an entrepreneurial population, great skills, comparative advantage in financial services, cyber-security, advanced manufacturing and more. Crucially, we also have an institutional arrangement that, if people would only see it, is unique in all of the world: access to the UK as of right and to the EU as a privilege, UK services law and access to the UK’s free trade agreements. That is a unique set of institutional arrangements to promote Northern Ireland’s prosperity for the long run and deliver just the transformation that is needed.
It is true, as hon. Members have indicated in relation to the Windsor framework, that that comes at the price of a difficult compromise, with some EU law still in place. I confess it is a difficult compromise for me, as I have said in the past. However, we have to choose from available futures. At the moment, Northern Ireland’s future looks bleak indeed unless we get behind the reforms that are needed to balance the budget for the long run. I believe that if we do that, if we come together in unity for our good purposes for Northern Ireland, we can achieve great things.
On the quantum that is available, the hon. Members for Foyle (Colum Eastwood) and for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) seem to be united in the idea that the budget is some sort of punishment. The hon. Member for Foyle suggested it was a tactic. I say to him that that is categorically not true. This spending envelope is the spending envelope that the Northern Ireland Executive would have faced had they not collapsed. It is not the case that we would be punishing people in the way that has been set out. To listen to the debate—
Colum Eastwood
It was not me who suggested that that was a tactic. The Secretary of State outlined the tactic in his own speech: he said that the next stages of the Bill will not be introduced until after the summer, and that that would give us all time to work together to get to government. It is clearly a tactic, although it is not going to work as a tactic. There are better tactics in my view, and I have laid some of them out to the Minister before, but it is a bit disingenuous to pretend that this is anything but a pressure point for the DUP that is clearly not working.
Mr Baker
I say to the hon. Gentleman that the simple fact is that the reason we are not doing all stages today is that summer recess approaches and we would trigger the Parliament Act inadvertently—[Interruption.] My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State does not accept that this is a tactic. The reality is, as we have said, that this is the spending envelope that would have been faced by a returning Executive.
I have to say that, listening to the debate, one would think that the spending envelope in Northern Ireland was at the discretion of my right hon. Friend, but of course, as Members know, nothing could be further from the truth. Long, dreary documents on how spending works are available for the public to read. I am sure that the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Dame Meg Hillier) knows very well the documents to which I refer—I have given them a go. These things are fixed by our right hon. and hon. Friends in the Treasury; it is not at the discretion of me and my right hon. Friend to decide how much is spent. This is the envelope that the Executive would have faced.
The hon. Member for Foyle mentioned the shared island initiative, but that large sum of money was agreed, I believe, through the North South Ministerial Council and comes with a number of caveats. However, he reminds me that there are a number of super-tankers at sea here that have evolved through a number of political agreements. I think that we all need to be working with a restored Executive to rationalise how that spending goes forward. That can be done only with a restored Executive.
A review for the Barnett formula was touched on. My right hon. Friend said earlier that we recognise that introducing a needs-based factor in the application of the Barnett formula for Northern Ireland according to a mechanism similar to that implemented in Wales is an option that could be considered to put Northern Ireland’s public finances on a sustainable footing. However, it took a number of years for the Welsh Government and the Treasury to agree a formula, and my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Robin Millar) wisely cautioned us that that matter is not settled. He also cautioned us about the dominance of the public sector. That is why I am so firm that Northern Ireland must be founded on a revitalisation of its vibrant private sector.
Let me turn to the funding premium and the comparison between the percentage of funding for Northern Ireland and the equivalent spending for the rest of the UK. Let me be really clear because, in listening to the debate, one could misunderstand the position. Funding for Northern Ireland will increase from 20% to 25% extra in 2024-25. Insofar as that funding premium is forecast to fall below 20%, it is by the early 2030s but not immediately.
I am grateful to the hon. Member for Hove (Peter Kyle) for mentioning revenue-raising measures. We will have full advice by the end of this month. He referred to the remarks made by the permanent secretary at the Department of Education. We are very well aware that, to live with its budget, the Department of Education has already taken significant steps to reduce expenditure. I am aware that, despite that, there is a funding gap. Our Department continues to engage with the Department of Education and the Department of Finance to address that. A previous political agreement such as NDNA recognised the structural inefficiencies in Northern Ireland’s educational system, about which Members may perhaps see that I feel passionately, and recommended a review to address them with reform. I welcome the recent completion of the review into special educational needs provision, and I look forward to the outcome of the review of education provision for 14 to 19-year-olds.
There has been a great deal of interest in the particular details of per-pupil funding. I propose to write to my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) in detail on education funding. I shall place a copy of that letter in the Library for all Members who have expressed an interest.
The hon. Member for Gordon (Richard Thomson) in particular raised section 75 duties and whether they are carried out by us and so on. As the ones taking the decisions, Northern Ireland Departments completed indicative section 75 assessments that were considered by the Secretary of State when he set the overall budget allocations. In light of those budget totals, Departments are now completing final assessments.
Richard Thomson
I am grateful for that clarification, but however good the intentions are, it seems to fall short of full compliance with what is expected under the section 75 procedure. Could those indicative assessments be put in the public domain, so that we can start to foster that wider political debate about the budget choices that are now being made?
Mr Baker
That brings me on to a point I wanted to make. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I sat here throughout the debate listening to a number of Members imploring us to take one action or another, which would amount to going down the road toward direct rule. We have no plans to go toward direct rule. We have been asked what we will do if this situation continues. In the event that we need to take further steps, we will announce them, if the need arises and when the time is right, but we have no plans to go to direct rule, and no amount of pressing us on one issue or another will cause us to take up direct rule.
Regarding the Windsor framework, yes, there are some technical matters that we might deal with in order to fulfil the policy intent clearly agreed by both sides. Where there are technical issues we need to move forward on, please, let us take them up as technical issues and deal with them in the Joint Committee. Let us not again raise such matters up to levels that require the attention of the great statesmen and women of Europe. It is better to deal with these things in a low-key way.
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson
With great respect to the Minister, the matters that we want to be addressed are not matters for the European Union; they are matters for His Majesty’s Government. They relate to the internal market of the United Kingdom and its workings. Either the UK Government are in charge of that, or they are not. When I see the UK Government introducing new statutory instruments to impose customs arrangements on parcels being sent from one part of the UK to another, I begin to wonder if the UK Government actually get our concern about the workings of the internal market.
Mr Baker
We certainly do. The right hon. Gentleman and I have walked a long way together over the last seven years. As he well knows, I regret that we have had to part ways somewhat at this point, but we are clearly aware of his concerns, which he articulates with great clarity and force. I hope he will not mind if, at this late hour, I say that I will leave this to my boss, the Secretary of State, and the other parties to work through.
Finally, I think, I turn to the issue of the Northern Ireland Audit Office, which the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Dame Meg Hillier) set out in some detail. Of course we appreciate the important role played by the NIAO and other independent bodies that hold the devolved Government to account, and ensure that public finances are spent properly and efforts are made to improve public services. However, when the Secretary of State considered budget allocations, he needed to take account of the challenging budget context and reductions faced by other Northern Ireland Departments. In such challenging circumstances, we believe it is only right that we ask the non-ministerial Departments and independent bodies to find savings in the same spirit as the rest of the Northern Ireland Departments.
Dame Meg Hillier
My concern is that it is a disproportionately large cut to a very small budget. It means that the Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland cannot complete her work programme for this year, and there is nobody else—no Executive, no Public Accounts Committee, no Assembly—that can do that job.
Mr Baker
Let me just check my notes to make sure I answer the hon. Lady properly on this point.
What we have done is roll forward the budget. The recommendations of the Assembly’s Audit Committee were made in a different economic and budget context. We maintain that, by rolling forward the 2022-23 budget allocation to the Northern Ireland Audit Office and other non-ministerial Departments, we have reached a fair outcome. I would be glad to meet the hon. Lady to discuss this matter further, but I think it better that we meet face to face in the first instance.
I hope right hon. and hon. Members agree that I have tried to respond to some of the main points made in the debate. We will write the letter on education funding. We do have a vision for Northern Ireland, which is one of Northern Ireland standing on its own two feet, with a balanced budget and reformed, effective and affordable public services; a Northern Ireland that is prosperous, happy and free, and is not always standing with its hand out to one party or another.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time; to stand committed to a Committee of the whole House (Order, this day).
Oral Answers to Questions
Steve Baker Excerpts(3 years, 1 month ago)
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Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)
We are acutely aware of the challenges facing the health service in Northern Ireland and, indeed, across the UK. That is why tackling waiting lists is one of the Prime Minister’s top five priorities. The performance of the NHS in Northern Ireland is not good enough, substantially because much-needed reforms have been avoided for years. Taking action to cut waiting lists and transform healthcare in Northern Ireland is the job of the devolved Government. For that reason, and many others, we urgently need the parties back in the Executive.
Simon Baynes
Over 500,000 people in Northern Ireland are waiting either to see a clinician or to have treatment, which represents one in four of the population. Does my hon. Friend agree that health services desperately need a working Executive to help address the huge problems they are facing?
Mr Baker
Yes. Without an Executive, local leaders are not able to deliver reforms to transform public services, and that is now being felt in the most uncomfortable, undesirable and difficult of ways by people in Northern Ireland, especially by those on long waiting lists. Northern Ireland desperately needs a working Executive.
Christine Jardine
I share the expressed concerns about the lack of an Executive in Northern Ireland and about support for the NHS, which is struggling. However, as the Minister mentioned, we are seeing similar problems across the United Kingdom. If it is one of the Prime Minister’s priorities, could he not meet the leaders of the NHS in each of the devolved nations, and the leaders of those devolved nations, to discuss how they can learn from each other and perhaps tackle the problem on a wide scale across the board?
Mr Baker
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State just said to me that the British-Irish Council did not discuss health this time, but it has in the past. That would be a good forum for that discussion, but the hon. Member will realise that it is rather above my pay grade.
Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con)
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)
I am glad to tell my hon. Friend that the Department most recently met with Northern Ireland tourism organisations alongside the Home Office for discussions on how to communicate the ETA requirement on 7 June. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State also hosted a tourism roundtable with sector leaders at Hillsborough castle on 20 April. The Government will continue their engagement with the tourism sector, which we recognise plays a vital role in Northern Ireland’s economy.
Tim Loughton
I am grateful for that answer, but does my hon. Friend acknowledge that if an ETA exemption was granted for tourists—or, indeed, people claiming to be tourists—travelling from the Republic of Ireland, that would undermine the integrity of the whole scheme?
Mr Baker
My hon. Friend is right, and that is the Government’s policy. We have engaged closely with not only the tourism sector but our friends in the Irish Government on this issue. I hope that we will be able to work together to ensure that there is a consistent and coherent communication strategy to ensure that tourists know they must register for an ETA and must continue to comply with the UK’s immigration requirements. I should say that whether one stays at Hillsborough castle, the Travelodge or any of the other great hotels in Northern Ireland, it is a wonderful place to visit.
Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance)
Does the Minister recognise that Ireland is marketed internationally as a single entity with respect to tourism? Does he understand that treating movements on the island of Ireland the same as any entries into the UK from the rest of the world is not fair and does not recognise the specific circumstances that exist on the island?
Mr Baker
I am most grateful to the hon. Member. We do recognise elements of what he said, and indeed we have had those conversations most recently with the Irish Government at the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference. It is the Government’s position that we should not create a loophole through the ETA scheme, but we do need to ensure that we communicate clearly with everyone the need to register and comply with immigration requirements. He may know that we have created an exemption for third-country nationals who are ordinarily resident in Ireland, and of course the requirement does not apply to citizens of the UK or Ireland under the common travel area, which we will continue to honour.
Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab)
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I are acutely aware of the challenges facing the education sector in Northern Ireland. He has met member organisations of the Northern Ireland Council for Voluntary Action to discuss these issues, and I have been engaging with stakeholders about the wider cost of division in education, which a report by researchers working independently at Ulster University recently estimated was an extraordinary £226 million per year. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will agree that it would be preferable for the Northern Ireland Executive to be restored so that they may make decisions on the issues that matter to the people of Northern Ireland, including the right level of funding for education.
Mike Amesbury
The Department of Education in Northern Ireland has announced that it will not proceed with proposed cuts to early years, extended schools and youth service programmes, which is broadly welcomed by community groups. Will the Minister confirm whether the Northern Ireland Office took direct action and advised on how guidance should be interpreted?
Mr Baker
We are always willing to work closely with the Northern Ireland civil service, but the hon. Gentleman knows that we have put in place an Act of Parliament to formalise arrangements by which decisions are taken by Northern Ireland civil servants during this governance gap. We will continue to work closely with civil servants, but if he would like to discuss a specific concern more closely with me, I will be glad to meet him. The answer to the problem is something that I think the whole House agrees on: it would be preferable to have locally accountable, devolved Government restored as soon as possible to take those decisions.
Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)
Our Prime Minister has described education as the
“closest thing to a silver bullet there is”.
The Northern Ireland Affairs Committee has heard concerns about the fact that Northern Ireland’s education budget is going down as the budgets in the rest of the UK are going up. Will the Minister make the case for further investment in education in Northern Ireland and continue to pursue integration, which is crucial to the future success of education?
Mr Baker
My hon. Friend makes a reasonable point. Integration is central not only to the Government’s policy but to the Belfast/Good Friday agreement. I am rather grateful that there has been some small controversy over the Ulster University report on the cost of division. We must have that conversation. If we are spending £600,000 a day on maintaining a system within which only 7% of children are educated in formal integrated schools and, overwhelmingly, children are educated separately as Catholics or Protestants, we should have a serious conversation about the cost of that system.
Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab)
Universities recently wrote a joint letter to the Secretary of State warning that his budget will force them to cut student places and will have a “fundamental and dangerous impact” on the future of Northern Ireland. Will the Minister carry out an assessment of the effect that a loss of student placements would have on Northern Ireland’s economy, so that the House can be fully informed of the long-term impacts of the budget?
Mr Baker
We are in frequent conversation with the vice-chancellors. The hon. Gentleman will remember that we have taken a power to commission advice and to consult, and he will know that there is a need to look at revenue raising. All those things come together and point in a direction on which I hope, in the end, there will be consensus: to ensure that the excellent higher education sector in Northern Ireland continues to be a beacon of great education for the world.
Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP)
Robbie Moore (Keighley) (Con)
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)
As a result of the Windsor framework, Northern Ireland will be in the unique position of being part of the UK internal market as of right, having privileged access to the EU market, being under UK services regulation, and having access to the free trade agreements to which we are acceding. In addition, I have led trade missions with Invest Northern Ireland to Canada and South Korea to promote brilliant Northern Ireland businesses overseas, and will take further similar steps.
Andrew Selous
What will be the benefit to businesses in Northern Ireland of working with the UK Export Academy?
Mr Baker
I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for highlighting the UK Export Academy, brought forward by the Department for Business and Trade. To illustrate its success, I would point to Lowden Guitars, which takes its products from its factory in County Down to customers in Australia. I encourage businesses across Northern Ireland, and indeed across the UK, to use the Export Academy, as he implicitly suggests.
Robbie Moore
How will the New Deal for Northern Ireland funding help to boost economic growth and increase Northern Ireland’s competitiveness overseas?
Mr Baker
The £400 million in the new deal for Northern Ireland funding will underscore the UK’s commitment to supporting and protecting the interests of people and businesses in Northern Ireland. New deal funding has been invested in projects such as £15 million for the Skill Up project to improve skills, £11 million for a cyber-AI hub at Queen’s University Belfast, and a number of other projects, including £8 million for Invest NI to help to promote trade. It is a commitment of which we are very proud and I could speak at even greater length.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
What is the Northern Ireland Office doing, and what is the Minister doing, to promote Northern Ireland businesses at COP28, which will provide a significant opportunity for those businesses to be marketed on the world stage, especially those involved in hydrogen technology? We have a hydrogen hub in my area.
Mr Baker
I know that the hon. Gentleman has a personal interest in this subject, and I should be happy to meet him to discuss how we can do more. There are some excellent businesses in Northern Ireland, including Catagen, which has an incredible technology for converting wind power and water into hydrocarbon fuels, and other businesses which should have the opportunity to participate.
Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Act 2022: Implementation
Steve Baker Excerpts(3 years, 2 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)
During the passage of the Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Act 2022, the Government committed to provide updates to Parliament on the implementation of the Act every six months from commencement. I am pleased to share the first such update today.
The Act received Royal Assent on 6 December 2022, upon which part 3 of the Act came into force. Since the passage of the Act, the Government have worked closely with the relevant Northern Ireland Departments on its implementation.
On 22 May, the Government made the Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Act 2022 (Commencement) Regulations 2023. This brought into force the provision of the Act for the purposes of establishing the Office of Identity and Cultural Expression, the Irish Language Commissioner and the Commissioner for the Ulster Scots and the Ulster British Tradition. This also brought into force the concurrent powers and powers of direction of the Secretary of State in relation to the Act.
In the Government’s view, the Act provides a framework for all of Northern Ireland’s identities, languages and cultures to be accommodated, protected and respected. This includes those who define themselves as “other” and those who form Northern Ireland’s ethnic and newcomer communities, consistent with the vision set out in New Decade, New Approach.
For these reasons, the Government remain committed to seeing the implementation of these New Decade, New Approach undertakings and will continue to work closely with Northern Ireland Departments on these matters. The Government will also continue to keep Parliament updated, in line with the assurances that we have made.
[HCWS823]
Draft Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 (Extension of Duration of Non-jury Trial provisions) Order 2023
Steve Baker Excerpts(3 years, 2 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 (Extension of Duration of Non-jury Trial Provisions) Order 2023.
The order was laid before the House on 24 April 2023, and I am most grateful to right hon. and hon. Friends and Members for being here for this important statutory instrument. Under the order, trials without a jury can take place in Northern Ireland in limited, prescribed circumstances for a further two years, until 31 July 2025. The current provisions will expire on 31 July 2023.
Following a public consultation, and after consideration of the wider security situation in Northern Ireland, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland considers it necessary to seek an extension to these provisions to ensure the continued safe administration of justice in specific cases. This decision was made carefully and informed by an extensive public consultation process, as well as by the work of the non-jury trial working group. The group was established following recommendations by the former Independent Reviewer of the Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 and is composed of representatives from the Public Prosecution Service, the Police Service of Northern Ireland, the court service, the Bar, the Law Society and other independent organisations. The group has worked diligently to produce reports for the independent reviewer and to develop a set of indicators to assist the Secretary of State in determining whether these non-jury trial provisions remain necessary in Northern Ireland. Those indicators included several indices of the current levels of paramilitary activity and intimidation in Northern Ireland. The Secretary of State considered the indicators in conjunction with the consultation responses and determined that they demonstrate that it would not be appropriate to remove the non-jury trial provisions at this time.
None of us should be in any doubt that it is disappointing that the security situation in Northern Ireland necessitates a further extension of these provisions. However, we should not lose sight of the bigger picture and the real progress that has been made. There is a strong presumption in favour of jury trial in Northern Ireland today, and in 2021 only 0.6% of all Crown court cases were conducted without a jury. That stands in stark contrast to the previous Diplock system, in which, for certain offences, the default was non-jury trial. Under the provisions of the 2007 Act, non-jury trials are reserved for use only in exceptional cases and where the independent Director of Public Prosecutions for Northern Ireland deems it to be a risk to the administration of justice for a trial to take place with a jury.
These measures remain necessary to safeguard against risks such as juror intimidation and juror bias in an extremely small number of cases. A non-jury trial may be permitted in such cases if the defendant is associated with a proscribed organisation or if the offence being tried is in connection with religious or political hostility. Such cases are high profile and continue to provoke strong public opinion on both sides of the community in Northern Ireland.
Decisions for non-jury trials are made by the Director of Public Prosecutions on a case-by-case basis, independent of Government and taking into account the circumstances of both the offence and the defendant. As part of the review process, the DPP routinely rejects applications for non-jury trials, and several expert stakeholders who responded to the public consultation cited this and other measures as evidence of the fact that the current system is proportionate and is currently operating with sufficient checks and balances.
Nevertheless, the Government remain committed to bringing to an end these provisions when it is safe and compatible with the interests of justice to do so, but we firmly believe that now is not the time to take this step. As demonstrated by the increase in the threat level to “severe”, which means an attack is highly likely, and the abhorrent attack on Detective Chief Inspector John Caldwell earlier this year, a small number of people continue to try to destabilise the political settlement through acts of terrorism and violence. Their activity causes harm to individuals and communities across Northern Ireland, and I know that the whole Committee condemns them for it.
Despite courageous work by the PSNI and others across communities in Northern Ireland, terrorist and paramilitary groups continue to exert influence and control in the communities where they operate. In 2021-22, there were 163 recorded offences of intimidation or threats to harm witnesses, and 170 households were accepted as homeless due to intimidation in 2022. It would be counterintuitive to believe that the same issues faced by witnesses would not be replicated should they be asked to sit as a juror in these cases. Furthermore, the most recent results from the Northern Ireland life and times survey in 2021 found that 17% of respondents believed that paramilitary groups create fear and intimidation in their area. As hon. Members will understand, the considered views of those who responded to the public consultation were crucial to the Secretary of State’s decision to seek an extension to these provisions. I would like to express my thanks on the record to everyone who participated.
The only current alternative to the provisions under debate would be the non-jury trial provisions in the Criminal Justice Act 2003. Hon. Members may be aware that, during the public consultation process, significant thought was given to the viability of relying solely on these provisions in Northern Ireland. Although some cited the idea as a long-term goal, many more cautioned against such a reliance at this moment. Numerous respondents noted that relying on the 2003 Act would expose jury members to an unacceptable risk of intimidation and undermine the administration of justice. Indeed, the provisions of the 2003 Act are so restrictive that only one case has ever been tried from the start by a judge sitting alone under them. That stands in contrast to the small number of cases that the Director of Public Prosecutions authorises under the Justice and Security Act each year. Other responses noted that reliance on the 2003 Act at this stage would impact detrimentally on the potential to obtain sufficient jurors to sit in high-profile terrorist cases.
I hope that hon. Members agree that the safety of people in Northern Ireland and the administration of justice are paramount. The Government remain committed to working strategically with security partners to tackle the threat from Northern Ireland-related terrorism and to support the Northern Ireland Executive’s programme to tackle paramilitary activity. However, we are not prepared to put the safety of individuals or the administration of justice at risk, and we believe that there has not been sufficient change in the Northern Ireland security situation over the last two years to demonstrate that non-jury trial provisions are no longer required.
As part of the consultation process, a number of constructive suggestions were made for alternative arrangements to the non-jury trial provisions in the 2007 Act, as well as proposals to improve the operation of the current regime. Northern Ireland Office officials are considering the viability of these proposals, as well as any recommendations that may be made in the forthcoming report of the independent reviewer of the Justice and Security Act. These will then be tested with the non-jury trial working group before it is determined whether they should be taken forward.
In the light of all the evidence before him, the Secretary of State has decided to seek a renewal of the non-jury trial provisions for a further two years but to keep them under regular, independent review. I assure members of the Committee that the decision was not taken lightly and that all relevant factors have been weighed up. I believe that I can count on the support of the whole Committee in the Government’s work to safeguard the administration of justice in Northern Ireland and to normalise security arrangements as soon as it is safe to do so.
Mr Baker
I am most grateful to the hon. Lady for the approach she has taken and for her support. I am also grateful to all the officials, members of the public and others who have participated in bringing forward this order. I finish by saying that I share with the hon. Lady the hope that we can normalise the situation in Northern Ireland together in the spirit of good will.
Question put and agreed to.
Northern Ireland (Interim Arrangements) Bill
Steve Baker ExcerptsWednesday 10th May 2023
(3 years, 3 months ago)
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Tonia Antoniazzi
I will keep my comments brief as I do not want to repeat what was said on Second Reading. Labour does not oppose the Bill as it is a necessary step to ensuring that governance in Northern Ireland can continue in the absence of a functioning Executive. The amendments show a clear indication from the Northern Ireland parties that improving Northern Ireland’s financial stability is a priority. Indeed, the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council’s recent work was highlighted a number of times. The Secretary of State mentioned during Northern Ireland questions that he had been in conversation with the Fiscal Council. It would be great to hear his assessment of its report and how he intends to proceed with that information.
Continued engagement with the Northern Ireland parties, as well as with bodies such as the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council, is paramount to best representing the people of Northern Ireland. I hope that such engagement from the Secretary of State and the Minister will continue.
Mr Steve Baker
I very much appreciate the contribution everyone has made. Everybody who has spoken in today’s debate is very much seized of the issues and very well informed. They have made their points with great force.
The hon. Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) raises the Northern Ireland Fiscal Council, so I will turn first to amendments 4 and 5 on relative need and needs-based spending. Provisions in the Bill already allow the UK Government to work with the Northern Ireland civil service on fiscal sustainability for the benefit of people across Northern Ireland, so neither amendment is strictly needed. I do not think it would be right for me to commit the Secretary of State to a particular piece of advice or consultation, but we have of course heard the debate—I listened extremely closely to it—and we are all fully committed to the sustainability of the finances, and to treating people justly and fairly.
Gavin Robinson
The Minister knows that the DUP tabled amendment 5 and there is a decision to be taken on whether to press it, or amendment 4 tabled by the hon. Member for North Down (Stephen Farry), to a Division. If the Minister does not wish to commit the Secretary of State to accepting our amendment or to commissioning advice on the basis of the work of the Fiscal Council, it would be very useful if he would at least commit the Secretary of State to engaging with me and colleagues on this issue, so that when advice is commissioned and he is consulting, we can incorporate this as part of the advice he seeks.
Mr Baker
Yes, of course. We would be delighted to engage with the hon. Gentleman. We have already said, in relation to commissioning advice and the draft guidance, that we are very happy to engage with Members of all parties, and I am grateful to him for that intervention.
On amendment 6, on the Executive Committee, we believe—with apologies—that it would be unworkable. The decision-making provisions apply only to functions exercised in the absence of Ministers, so once Ministers have been appointed, they can no longer have any practical effect.
Claire Hanna
Is the Minister aware—I cannot remember which year it was, because there have been so many crises —of the in-out Ministers stunt? I think it was conducted in mid to late 2015. Ministers resigned on a rotating basis over a period of months, so Ministers were in place but there was not a functioning Executive. It is that kind of carry on we are trying to guard against.
Mr Baker
Yes, and I confess that my mind boggles that such a thing should have happened. Equally, I recognise that, standing here right now, I am not aware of the full circumstances. I certainly hear what the hon. Lady says, but even so I hope she will understand that right now I cannot accept the amendment.
Turning to amendments 7, 8 and 9 on specific consultees, we believe that this would be unnecessarily restrictive. Requiring the Secretary of State to direct the Department to consult the specified bodies listed in the amendment is not necessary. The consultee lists for the Northern Ireland Departments are well known and recognised, so we do not wish to pick out the three bodies over any others because it would beg the question, why not include them all? In particular, picking up on the Fiscal Council, the Secretary of State has already confirmed, I think through me, that he is engaged with the Fiscal Council. He is happy to commit to the Committee that he will ensure that it, and all the bodies listed in the amendment, will be consulted on budget sustainability. We therefore ask the hon. Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood) not to press the amendment to a Division.
On amendment 11, on scrutiny and the scrutiny of Ministers, the approach in the Bill to the power of the Northern Ireland Assembly to call for witnesses and documents is consistent with previous circumstances where the UK Government have taken certain powers to give direction to Northern Ireland Departments. If UK Government Ministers give Northern Ireland Departments a direction, it is right and proper that the line of accountability comes here to Parliament, where UK Government Ministers are accountable. It is not appropriate for the Northern Ireland Assembly to be able to hold UK Government Ministers to account in that way.
On amendment 2, on communal divisions, the hon. Member for North Down (Stephen Farry) makes his points extremely well. He knows—I think I have illustrated it—that I feel his pain on this issue, but we already have, for the purpose of pursuing fiscal sustainability, the ability to take advice and pursue consultations. I certainly look forward to further conversations with him and to taking his advice on where we should look in relation to communal divisions. I will be glad to meet him to consider that issue further. On his amendment 3, on transformation, the Secretary of State would have the powers under the Bill to commission advice and go for consultations to achieve budget sustainability through transformation. I hope that the hon. Member will accept that the amendment is not strictly necessary, but once again, I hear him and he makes his point very well and with great force.
On the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill, I hope the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) will accept that it is not the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Office to take it through the House, but I listened carefully to what she said about its impact on Northern Ireland. I am conscious that her amendment was not selected, so I hope that she will not mind if I do not go any further.
Stella Creasy
The Bill explicitly gives the Minister, in the absence of Stormont, the powers to use the devolved competences. Is he saying that he has not looked into those powers at all, or is he not prepared to talk about how he is exercising them?
Mr Baker
As on the face of the Bill, we will be able to seek advice from officials in the Northern Ireland Departments and require consultations, but we will have no powers to implement any of the measures on which we have taken advice. We are clear that devolution is the best way to govern Northern Ireland, as we have said many times.
With that, I am grateful to everyone who has participated in the Committee.
The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Rosie Winterton)
I believe that the hon. Member for Belfast South (Claire Hanna) wishes to withdraw her amendment.
Mr Steve Baker
I beg to move, That Bill be now read the Third time.
It is not an especially happy occasion. As the House has fleshed out, we see before us the many difficult decisions that lie ahead. But it is a necessary occasion, as we have all agreed.
I want to place on record my thanks to everyone involved in the Bill’s passage through the House for their support of its expedited passage. I particularly thank the Front Benchers of all parties for their collaborative and constructive engagement on the legislation, recognising the importance of getting it on the statute books to avoid a governance gap from 5 June. I place on record my appreciation to the House authorities, particularly the Clerks who, as ever, have guided us in an expert fashion. I thank the excellent Diggory Bailey in the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel for the expert fashion in which he and colleagues drafted the Bill. I thank my colleagues and officials in the Government Whips office for helping us progress in a smooth fashion, and in particular on this occasion for not putting me under undue time pressure. I am most grateful to them, as always.
I conclude by repeating what I said at Second Reading. People in Northern Ireland rightfully expect to see these decisions taken in Stormont not Westminster, and I agree with them. I think the House does, too.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
I call the shadow Secretary of State.
Mr Baker
For such a matter to come up so late in the debate is just one of those things, but I think that I have a good track record on renewing the relationship with Ireland and with the European Union. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that we have agency, and I am determined, as is the Secretary of State, to work with everyone as expeditiously as possible to make a success of restoring the Executive.
Peter Kyle
On numerous occasions today the Minister has urged the Northern Ireland parties to get back in. It is my job to hold his feet to the fire as well, and to point out that he, as a UK Government Minister, has skin in the game on this one. It was, of course, some of the actions of the UK Government that led to some of the challenges that are faced in Northern Ireland, which proves that what happens here in Westminster—the decisions taken in Downing Street and in Whitehall—has a profound impact over there. So rather than always looking to those parties to sort out the problems that have sometimes been created through decisions taken over there, the Minister must be a very active participant in that process.
Northern Ireland (Interim Arrangements) Bill
Steve Baker ExcerptsWednesday 10th May 2023
(3 years, 3 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Northern Ireland (Interim Arrangements) Act 2023 View all Northern Ireland (Interim Arrangements) Act 2023 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Committee of the whole House Amendments as at 10 May 2023 - (10 May 2023)
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Steve Baker)
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
It is, of course, with profound regret that I return to the Dispatch Box to bring forward legislation in the absence of a Northern Ireland Executive. I am sure that right hon. and hon. Members across the House will agree that this is not a position that any of us would want to be in. The Government remain committed to supporting the restoration of the Executive in Northern Ireland as soon as possible. Functioning governance for Northern Ireland by its elected representatives is the best outcome for citizens.
Last month, we all came together to reflect on the 25th anniversary of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, and to mark the progress that Northern Ireland has made over the past quarter-century and the peace and prosperity that the agreement has brought. Of course, we also reflected on the work that remains to be done. The anniversary is an opportunity for us all to recommit to building an even brighter future for Northern Ireland. We need to see Northern Ireland’s political leaders come together and restore the devolved institutions established by the agreement, which is the surest way of delivering on the priorities of Northern Ireland’s peoples and of safeguarding our Union.
We have been very clear that to strengthen and protect the Union, we must persuade people and demonstrate that devolved government within the UK is what works best for Northern Ireland. It is in that spirit that we agreed the Windsor framework, seeking to restore the balance of the agreement and solve the issues posed by the Northern Ireland protocol. Now is the time for the parties to move forward together for what is the best possible future for Northern Ireland, and to deliver on the priorities of its people. That includes a more prosperous economy and better, more sustainable public services.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
The Minister quite correctly draws attention to the fact that the best way for Northern Ireland to have success in the future is to get devolved government up and running within the United Kingdom. Does he agree that that can best be done when all main sections of the community in Northern Ireland buy into the process of governance by which they would be governed?
Mr Baker
Yes, of course. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I agree that it must involve all sections of the community. I will be very frank with the hon. Gentleman: I recognise that the Windsor framework is a hard compromise for many sections of the Unionist community because it leaves in place some European Union law in order to have an infrastructure-free border. That is why it is also a hard compromise for Conservative Eurosceptics and for me. But I recognise that, of all the plausible futures for Northern Ireland before us, the one that is best for the people of Northern Ireland is to accept the Windsor framework, including the Stormont brake and the consent mechanism, to restore devolved government and move forward together.
As I said when I answered the final oral question earlier, Northern Ireland has an amazing opportunity. Northern Ireland Members will know better than me the incredible strength of the entrepreneurial private sector in Northern Ireland. What I see is a sector that could, with political stability, soar. With privileged access to the UK, to the EU, and to our free trade agreements under UK services law, we could achieve amazing things that will secure Northern Ireland’s prosperity, and, I believe, secure consent for Northern Ireland’s place in the Union. But I think that, for the moment, I had best leave unsaid what will happen if people continue to go without good-quality devolved government and where that will lead. If that is a topic that Members wish to pursue, perhaps we can have a different debate. I hope that is helpful to the hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell).
I want to be absolutely clear that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, the Prime Minister and I all wish to preserve Northern Ireland’s place in the Union, respecting the UK’s commitments under the Belfast/Good Friday agreement. We are Unionists, although I am aware that there are some commentators for whom we can never be Unionist enough—but I am allowing myself to digress and I should get back on track.
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)
It may just be the way in which the Minister phrased what he said, but this is important: our ability to trade with the rest of the United Kingdom is not a privilege; it is a right. It is a right under article 6 of the Act of Union that we have the economic right to trade, barrier-free, with the rest of our own country. Yes, privileged access to the EU, but let us not talk about “privileged access” to the UK market. We are part of the United Kingdom.
Mr Baker
The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, and I apologise to him and to Northern Ireland Members. I had it in my head to say “privileged access to the EU”, but seeing him sitting there, I wanted to mention the UK first. It was a mistake. He is absolutely right that Northern Ireland’s right to trade unhampered into the UK is one that, as we explained at oral questions earlier, we continue to stand by and preserve, and which, under the Windsor framework, we have permanently guaranteed. I am grateful to him for clarifying that point. I will press on.
Before I provide an overview of the Bill, I should say a few words on Northern Ireland’s public finances. As the Bill’s provisions indicate, we are acutely concerned about the long-term sustainability of public finances in Northern Ireland. It was with considerable disappointment that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State found it necessary once again to step in and set a budget for Northern Ireland for 2023-24 in the absence of a Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly. As the Secretary of State has made clear on multiple occasions, the extent of the budget pressures facing Northern Ireland Departments is extremely challenging. Departments are facing difficult and unavoidable decisions in the current difficult and frustrating circumstances.
The Government recognise that we need an Executive in place to take some of those difficult decisions and make the choices on budget priorities—choices that officials should not have to face without Ministers. We stand ready to work with a restored Executive on that, but in the meantime, we the Government of the UK have a responsibility to ensure that public services and the management of public funds can continue in their absence, so we will in due course take forward legislation to put the budget on a legal footing. Members of this House will have the opportunity to debate those allocations in detail at that time, if and when we come to it.
Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance)
There is concern about the nature of the current civil service guidance. The Government believe that the civil service has the capacity to take decisions; civil servants do not believe that they have the vires to take decisions, particularly in relation to statutory functions. Does the Minister recognise that we are at somewhat of an impasse in the current status quo, and that there is a danger that we end up either with difficult decisions being deferred, which makes them more painful, or with a managed overspend, which is another very undesirable situation?
Mr Baker
I do recognise those aspects. We have published today revised guidance and those relatively small changes are now available on gov.uk. We will certainly be interested in the hon. Gentleman’s views, and those of all relevant parties, on that guidance. In a nutshell, I agree with him that the best way forward is to restore the institutions. I am trying not to hector, but we are all very frustrated. As I have repeatedly said, I recognise that the Democratic Unionist party and Unionism more broadly face a very difficult compromise, but I am committed, as I know the hon. Gentleman is, to saying that devolved government in Northern Ireland is the best way forward.
Simon Hoare
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. Picking up on the point raised by the hon. Member for North Down (Stephen Farry) with regard to the role of civil servants, is the Minister able to consider seconding GB civil servants with experience of delivering dynamic change management to both the Northern Ireland civil service and the Northern Ireland Office in order to help deliver those changes? Although we hope it will for a short period of time, all hands are needed to the pump.
Mr Baker
My hon. Friend makes a very sensible suggestion. I am sure it will be considered in due course, but I hope he will not mind me saying that it would be best if that request came from a restored Executive. I know that I sound like a broken record, but that is the present issue.
I will press on. First, I express my sincere thanks to Opposition Members for continuing to ensure that Northern Ireland is served as well as possible and for not making it a political football. I appreciate that most sincerely.
The Bill does three important things. First, it continues the provisions relating to decision making for Northern Ireland civil servants, which Parliament passed in December in the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2022. Those provisions, which clarify the decisions that civil servants in the Northern Ireland Departments can take in the absence of Northern Ireland Ministers and an Executive, are due to expire on 5 June. Under this Bill, those powers will continue until an Executive are restored. This will avoid a governance gap arising if an Executive are not in place by 5 June. As before, senior officers will be required to have regard to guidance, now published, set by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and the Government. That draft is out there, and we will take representations on it.
The second thing that the Bill does, and this is a little more novel, is give power to the Secretary of State to explore, with Northern Ireland Departments, options for budget sustainability, including further revenue raising, in Northern Ireland. Alongside allowing him to commission advice, the Bill will allow the Secretary of State to direct consultations to be held by Northern Ireland Departments on those matters. These powers are time-limited and apply only until an Executive are formed.
Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP)
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. He has talked about revenue raising. It is possible that a new model for funding higher education will be looked at. Given that all Governments have said that they want to ensure an expansion in student numbers in Derry, can he guarantee that that hope and desire will be protected under any new funding model?
Mr Baker
As the hon. Gentleman knows, I cannot guarantee what a restored Executive will choose to do, but I can guarantee that we will listen to him and all relevant stakeholders. Indeed, we meet the university frequently—I did so on a recent visit. We certainly wish to take the advice of the universities and, indeed, representatives from Northern Ireland as we work towards commissioning advice. Without wishing to preview what we are likely to do, of course student finance is an important matter to consider. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman.
The powers are deliberately focused on official advice and consultations on budget sustainability. Final decisions on implementation are best taken by locally elected representatives, and this Bill does not give the Secretary of State any power to direct implementation of such budget measures.
The third thing the Bill does is ensure greater political oversight of the management of public money in the absence of the Assembly, by providing for Northern Ireland Departments’ accounts and associated documents to be laid in the House of Commons. In previous absences of the Northern Ireland Assembly, the law has provided for that scrutiny to fall to Parliament, and the provision in this Bill will do that again. This provision will be active for all periods where there is no functioning Assembly, on the basis that public bodies must always be scrutinised to ensure good management of public money.
In conclusion, the measures in this Bill will ensure a continuation of the current Government’s arrangements in Northern Ireland.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the Minister very much for what he has said so far. My constituents are concerned about the issue of childcare. I know that the moneys allocated by this House for childcare are for England alone, but as we approach the council elections, my constituents and others I have met on the doorsteps over the past few days have informed me that they are very concerned that Northern Ireland has not been offered childcare arrangements similar to those in England. Whether that will come through the Barnett consequentials or elsewhere, it has to happen. I am making a constructive comment, and I hope that the Minister will accept it as such. Only 60% of employed women with dependent children work full time, as opposed to 95% of men with dependent children. It is clear that the lack of affordable childcare—this is what they are telling me on the doorstep—is holding back women in Northern Ireland. What can be done through this interim arrangements Bill to enable childcare provision in Northern Ireland?
Mr Baker
I have enormous empathy for what the hon. Gentleman says. He is right to say that without childcare, women will be held back. That is why my right hon. Friend the Chancellor included so much on childcare in his Budget statement. As awkward as it is for me to once again be a stuck record, the hon. Gentleman knows that it is a devolved area. Barnett consequentials are relevant and it will be for a restored Executive to put these things in place. I am not for a moment pretending that this is a perfect or permanent solution for governance in Northern Ireland. These are interim arrangements and we very much hope, for reasons that I have begun to sketch, that we might be able to persuade Unionism to support the return of the institutions so that we can make sure that Northern Ireland gets all of the services for which he passionately and rightly argues.
The measures in the Bill will ensure the continuation of governance arrangements should there be no Executive when they expire on 5 June. They are not, and cannot be, a substitute for devolved government, as I have just said. They are by no means ideal, particularly in the context of this financial position. I want particularly to thank Northern Ireland civil servants, because they are in a very difficult position and we are extremely grateful to them for the burden that they are taking on. We continue to be grateful, and we will continue to give them what support we can.
The marking of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement has reminded us all of the importance of making the institutions in Northern Ireland work. This Government believe that an effective and functioning devolved government is crucial to showing that the Union works for the whole community in Northern Ireland. That is why the restoration of the Executive remains a Government top priority. We will continue to do everything we can to make that happen, and as we do so we will keep these arrangements under review. But for now, I commend the Bill to the House.
Mr Baker
With the leave of the House, I rise to close the debate, and I thank all those who have participated in it. Once again, we have seen that on the main substance of the Bill there is wide agreement. There is agreement that it is necessary but regrettable, as we continue to seek to avoid the governance gap.
I will now seek to respond to as many points as I can. The shadow Secretary of State raised the issue of some difficult decisions being too much for officials. We recognise that the Bill is an interim arrangement. It clarifies the powers that civil servants need in order to maintain public services in the absence of an Executive. We recognise that civil servants will be uncomfortable taking some of the difficult decisions that are needed. Indeed, it is possible that they will feel unable to take them, but that, of course, is why we need the Executive back. I am aware that we are sounding like a stuck record, but getting the Executive back is what we are seeking to do.
Before I go any further, I will just say to the hon. Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) that I know the Prime Minister would want me to say that he is fully committed to the return of devolution, but that is a point to which I shall return later.
My hon. Friend the Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare), who chairs the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, asked about advice. He raised a great point and I am happy to clarify that it is our intention that the options developed for budget sustainability will be shared with the new Executive, and we hope that the new Executive will act swiftly to implement such measures. Further to various points that he made in relation to direct rule, I am absolutely clear that the Bill does not give us any powers to implement measures. I hope that is helpful to my hon. Friend—it is just the powers of the Secretary of State to direct that there should be advice and consultations, which would fall away.
The hon. Member for Gordon (Richard Thomson), who speaks for the SNP, made a speech to which I listened very carefully. I am happy to say that, on this occasion, I did not spot any areas where I disagreed with him, but I shall have to revisit Hansard. I am grateful to him for the manner in which he has approached this debate, and I can assure him that it made a pleasant change.
A number of Members have talked about the budget. I know that if the moment comes that we are forced to bring forward a budget Bill, we will no doubt touch on all of the issues in detail, but I hope the House will forgive me if I do not go into any further detail on that this afternoon. What I will say is that we will have to bring forward a Bill if there is not an Executive, which I and the Secretary of State will regret should that be necessary.
On the issue of funding, the Government have, for many years, recognised the unique challenges that Northern Ireland faces. We have provided about £7 billion in additional funding to Northern Ireland since 2014, on top of the Barnett-based block grant and the Northern Ireland budget. Per person, that is around 20% higher than the equivalent UK Government spending in the rest of the UK. I am well aware of the Fiscal Council’s report, which suggests that, on a needs basis, it should be even higher, but I have to say that 20% extra would go a long way in Wycombe—the streets are not all paved with gold there.
Mr Baker
I will, if the hon. Gentleman will let me finish my point.
We do need the Executive back, and not because we believe all the problems will go away—far from it—but because we need the problems to be addressed by Northern Ireland Executive Ministers. I am very clear that the road ahead will be long and hard for those Ministers.
Gavin Robinson
Does the Minister accept that, within the next two years, the upward trajectory for the budget in England is 6%, but the trajectory in Northern Ireland is 3.6%? Per household, that equates to £2,000 less in Northern Ireland than for his constituents in Wycombe.
Mr Baker
I am confident that the hon. Gentleman has done his homework, but I hope he will forgive me for saying that I will not confirm the figures when I do not have them immediately in front of me in the terms that he has put them. As I mentioned in oral questions earlier today, for all of us in this House, and indeed in all the devolved institutions, we do need to engage with the fiscal projections of the Office for Budget Responsibility. There is no doubt in my mind that, for the rest of our political careers and far beyond, there will be a problem with meeting the many demands of age-related spending. All of us will need to rise to that challenge, as it will need, in particular, healthcare reform. The Bengoa report is long since overdue in implementation. I also talked earlier about healthcare.
A total of £600,000 a day is spent maintaining a divided education system. It cannot be right just on a cost basis, never mind all of the social divisions that it leads to. That conversation needs to be had. I have made that position clear. The Government’s position is very clear: we are in favour of integrated education. I know that there will be a spectrum of views on this, but when it comes to funding, we are all clear that the problems that are faced will endure. We are clear that there will need to be a conversation about the Barnett formula—I am aware of the Barnett squeeze—but none of these things will be anything like plausible to solve, in a way that will be acceptable to all sections of the community, until the Executive is restored.
Sammy Wilson
I ask the Minister, whose party talks all the time in this House about choice in education, why he wishes to shoehorn education in Northern Ireland into one particular system. Does he not accept that, in Northern Ireland, there are those who choose to have church education, those who choose to have grammar school education, and those who want to have integrated schools? Does he not accept that the same choice that he would have for his constituents should be available to people in Northern Ireland?
Mr Baker
I absolutely do. Since the right hon. Gentleman mentions my constituents, I am happy to tell him that we are a grammar system in Wycombe and that the Highcrest Academy has built what it calls an “all ability” school there, which I regard as a comprehensive. Strangely enough, I helped it against the forces of the hard left, which were trying to avoid building an all ability school under the grammar system, and I rather approve of its ability to bring back choice for parents.
We have a co-operative school in my constituency, which I support, and a Catholic school—by the way, Muslim parents, and there are many in Wycombe, choose freely to send their children to the Catholic school. I am all in favour of school choice for my constituents and for the right hon. Gentleman’s constituents, but the question is at what cost. That question is one that he and his colleague Members of the Legislative Assembly need to answer in a re-formed Executive.
However, when I go over to Northern Ireland as a Minister and meet young people who say to me, “I was 16 before I met my first Catholic”, or “I was 18 before I met my first Unionist”, there is so much wrong with that. I find myself amazed that that is even a conversation in the 21st century. Yes to choice, but at what cost?
Stephen Farry
I welcome what the Minister says in relation to integrated schools, but I have two points for him. First, I want to reinforce that there is significant demand for integrated schools right across the community in Northern Ireland. Secondly, and most relevant to this debate, does he recognise that moving from a split system to more of a shared, integrated system involves some degree of investment? The problem is that the Department of Education cannot do that at present, in a context of declining budgets where it is trying to protect what it has.
Mr Baker
The hon. Gentleman’s point is very well made; he knows that I hear it now and have heard it in the past.
We are clear that finances in Northern Ireland are not sustainable, but we are also clear that it is for an Executive to act on it. In the absence of an Executive, the Government through this Bill will ensure that time is not lost in starting to think about and work on that. We will commission advice from the Northern Ireland civil service on the options for budget sustainability in Northern Ireland, and we are happy to engage with any Member of the House in more detail about what we commission.
I heard what the hon. Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood) said, and I am particularly interested in engaging with him and the universities. I also recognise the point he makes about places in Derry. He is right that Northern Ireland will never be a laissez-faire paradise, and it will be necessary for policy to embrace the point he makes about rebalancing towards Derry/Londonderry.
We are happy to engage with hon. Members, although I do not wish to pre-empt any particular piece of advice we might commission. We are absolutely clear that it is for locally accountable leadership to take these difficult decisions, but we are clear that those decisions will endure.
Questions were asked about future strategy, but the Government are clear about our strategy for Northern Ireland: devolution, moving forward with the Windsor framework and making the most of our new, constructive relationship with the EU and Ireland to improve that framework in a collaborative way when problems arise, as they inevitably will. Since this point came up earlier, we will then also work towards the review of the trade and co-operation agreement and try to improve our overall position.
While we are doing that—because, as has been said, we can do more than one thing at once—we will do everything we can to cheerlead for Northern Ireland. It is an amazing place, loved by people all over the world and full of talented people with an incredible capacity for innovation and development. They deserve investment, and I for one want to see that they get it.
Finally, I join in the lament about the gap that has opened up between the Government and Unionists. Once again, this has been a painful debate for me to listen to. Sometimes hon. Friends in the DUP have directed their remarks at me, but I would say to them that I do not wish to be hard on them. I must say to my right hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) that I do not regret having given voice to people in Fermanagh who said, “Get on with it.”. That is what people want in Northern Ireland. There was no chanting—it was just a cry of “Get on with it”, and I am not sorry that I gave voice to that sentiment.
Hon. Members will have noticed that I have tried to be as emollient as possible in recent days—I really have. I have put on record that this is a difficult compromise for me too. I know that it is an even more difficult compromise for them to go back into the Executive with the Windsor framework, but I just say again that we have to choose from available futures.
Everybody here knows that it is not enough just to say what you want; you have to know how you will get it. I am clear, as we go forward with the Bill, that we do not want to be here again with Bills of this nature. We want to celebrate a return of devolved government, and yes, by all means, continue a conversation about the detail of the Windsor framework and what we can do to support the Union and Unionism. But, my goodness, I want us to get to the point, beyond this Bill, where we are celebrating the return of devolved government to solve the real problems that we face, and celebrating a Northern Ireland that has a much better and brighter future.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time; to stand committed to a Committee of the whole House (Order, this day).