Oral Answers to Questions

Pat McFadden Excerpts

Thursday 5th June 2025 Commons Chamber

[Susan Murray (Mid Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

9. What steps he is taking to improve national resilience against cyber-security threats.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Pat McFadden)]

Cyber-defence is an important part of our national security, with daily attacks against Government, businesses and individuals. Members across the House will have seen the recent attacks against British household names such as Marks & Spencer and the Co-op and, indeed, the Government’s own Legal Aid Agency. Earlier this week, the Prime Minister announced that responsibility for public sector and Government cyber-security will sit with the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology. That will strengthen technological resilience by better integrating cyber-security and expertise into the Government Digital Service.

[Daniel Francis]

In recent weeks, we have seen a series of cyber-attacks on retailers, including on my former employer, Marks & Spencer, and on Government services such as the Legal Aid Agency. Will the Minister update the House on what discussions he has had with the UK’s National Cyber Security Centre and others to ensure that these incidents are dealt with as swiftly as possible and that more is done to prevent such attacks succeeding in the future?

[Pat McFadden]

Earlier this week, I met the chief executive of the National Cyber Security Centre, which works with impacted organisations to investigate what has happened and who is responsible and to help them rebuild. It has been working with all the organisations that have been hit by recent cyber-attacks. I also made a speech about these issues at the CYBERUK conference in Manchester a few weeks ago.

[Susan Murray]

I thank the Minister for his answer. As has been mentioned, we have recently seen attacks against private institutions, with groups such as Marks & Spencer being targeted. I would be very interested to learn about the approach that has been taken by the statutory organisations and those in the military sphere, but I would like to know what efforts have been made to protect private businesses from cyber-attacks and to ensure that my constituents in Mid Dunbartonshire and people across the UK have access to their daily essentials.

[Pat McFadden]

The hon. Member is absolutely right. The National Cyber Security Centre offers advice, guidance and tools such as Cyber Essentials to businesses to help them prepare as best they can for attacks. Unfortunately, organised crime carries out some of these attacks, and the extortion of money is often at their root. It is really important that Government, business and individuals prepare as best we can to act against the bad actors who are trying to explore cyber-vulnerabilities and often, as I said, extort money.

[Mr Speaker]

I call shadow Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.

[Alex Burghart (Brentwood and Ongar) (Con)]

The Government’s own cyber experts Innovate UK have warned the Government that the proposed Chinese embassy at the Royal Mint threatens to compromise the telephone and internet exchange that serves the financial City of London. The experts are now telling the Government what everyone else has known all along: the super-embassy poses a super-risk. Yet the Deputy Prime Minister’s office has said that any representations on the planning application have to be made available to the applicants. Perhaps the real Deputy Prime Minister can clear this up: are the Government seriously saying that if MI5 or GCHQ have concerns about security on this site, those concerns will have to be passed to the Chinese Communist party, or has the Deputy Prime Minister got it wrong?

[Pat McFadden]

When it comes to both engagement with China and with an issue like this, we will engage properly while always bearing in mind our own national security considerations. The approach we do not adopt is to withdraw from engagement, which the previous Government did for a number of years—flip-flopping from that to the previous era that they called the golden era. We will engage with China when it is in our economic interest, but we will always bear our national security interests in mind.

[Alex Burghart]

The previous Government did not engage—sorry, they did not disengage. At the heart of this are two simple facts. First, the Government already know that this site is a security risk. It is a security risk to the City of London and, through it, our economy and the economies of all nations that trade in London. Secondly, the Government have the power to block it. Ireland and Australia have both already blocked similar embassy developments. Why are this Government too weak to act?

[Pat McFadden]

The hon. Gentleman was right the first time when he said that the previous Government did not engage enough. As I said, a decision on this application will be taken with full consideration of our national security considerations. Those considerations are always part of these decisions, and our engagement with China and other countries. Where I agree with him is that when it comes to national cyber-security, we must bear in mind state threats as well as non-state threats, and that is very much part of our thinking as we respond to what is going on in the cyber-sphere.

[Peter Prinsley (Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket) (Lab)]

3. What progress he has made on joining up government.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Pat McFadden)]

We have been clear from the outset that we want to govern in a joined-up way, though as we all know the DNA in the departmental system is strong and has lasted a long time. Delivering our plan for change will require Departments to work together, whether that is to build more houses, give children the best start in life—today we announced access to free school meals for children of people on universal credit—or to protect the country against crime and security threats. It is very important that these are not goals of Departments but of the Government, and that is why we work together to achieve them.

[Peter Prinsley]

I am grateful for the Minister’s answer. Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket is privileged to host thousands of servicemen and servicewomen from RAF Honington, RAF Lakenheath and RAF Mildenhall. They play a crucial part in the lives of our towns and villages. Can the Minister assure me that the Ministry of Defence is working with other Departments to ensure that places such as Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket will benefit from the announcements in the strategic defence review in the form of jobs, housing, investment and apprenticeships?

[Pat McFadden]

My hon. Friend raises an important point. When the Prime Minister announced the strategic defence review a few days ago, he was clear that the uplift that has been approved by the Government in defence spending is a matter not just of the Ministry of Defence budget, but of industrial policy and skills policy. For example, we have announced an extra £1.5 billion for munitions over the next five years, creating six new munitions factories and over 1,000 jobs. It is really important that these investments are of benefit to different parts of the country as we make the necessary investments to improve our defence and national security in response to a changing world.

[Joe Robertson (Isle of Wight East) (Con)]

I welcome the Minister’s words on wanting a more joined-up Government, but I have concerns that the Department for Transport and the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government are not working well enough together both generally and specifically on cross-Solent transport to the Isle of Wight. Will he encourage better joint working between those Departments, both generally and specifically for that most important issue for my constituents where clearly Local Government and Transport need to work together to create regulation to improve passenger experience?

[Pat McFadden]

The hon. Member makes a strong point. I spend every day encouraging Departments to work together, but he will have heard me say that departmental DNA is strong. He is right that if we want to achieve things, we must overcome departmental DNA sometimes and ensure that Departments work together to deliver good projects. That is exactly what we are trying to do.

[Mike Reader (Northampton South) (Lab)]

A key function of joined-up Government is joined-up procurement, and I have had the pleasure of working with the Crown Commercial Service as a supplier for over 15 years. There is an ongoing issue that the CCS runs its major procurements during holiday exercises, and this summer is no different. The construction professional services framework, which is worth billions of pounds, has been delayed and will run over the summer, meaning businesses and families have to cancel summer holidays and change their plans. What more is the Department doing to address the culture in the CCS of “buyer knows best” and not respecting supply chains?

[Pat McFadden]

My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the importance of the CCS. We have tasked the CCS with working with suppliers and reviewing how it runs frameworks to maximise the spend with small and medium-sized businesses. That should include the timing of the framework so that everyone can take part as best as possible.

[Max Wilkinson (Cheltenham) (LD)]

A couple of weeks ago, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster made a statement at CYBERUK about the Golden Valley development in my constituency, which was welcomed in the constituency. Since then, a decision has been made on joining up Government with the functions of public sector and on Government cyber-security moving from his Department to the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology. Is he having discussions as part of that process to ensure that his DSIT colleagues are well aware of the huge opportunities and the risks to that project at west Cheltenham?

[Pat McFadden]

I referred to the machinery of Government change that we announced a few days ago. We are building up a real sense of expertise in DSIT, and we thought it made sense to make that change to bring together the operational and security parts of cyber policy. I am sure that my colleagues in DSIT are well aware of the hon. Member’s views and of the importance of the issues that he raised.

[Josh Dean (Hertford and Stortford) (Lab)]

4. What steps he is taking to improve relations with the EU.

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[Chris McDonald (Stockton North) (Lab)]

18. What steps he is taking to relocate civil service roles to locations outside London.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Pat McFadden)]

The state has to reform to secure better value for money and outcomes for the public, and to ensure that government better reflects the country it serves. I often say that I want a civil service that speaks with all the accents of this great country. We are committed to half of UK-based senior civil servants being based outside London by the end of the decade. Last month, we confirmed plans to relocate thousands of civil service roles to 13 towns and cities across the country. The aim is to bring the civil service closer to local communities and to bring good employment prospects to different parts of the country.

[Ian Lavery]

I welcome that reply, and it is really progressive that the Government are now relocating jobs away from London, but can I urge the Minister to look closely at how people in places like my constituency of Blyth and Ashington—people everywhere, in rural and semi-rural constituencies as well as in more urban ones—can benefit from this fantastic policy? We all need to be able to benefit from this policy, not just certain peoples in city constituencies.

[Pat McFadden]

I very much hear what my hon. Friend says. I cannot stand here and say that there will be a civil service location in every single constituency in the country, but we are happy to have dialogue with MPs and local authorities from all parts of the country to get the biggest benefits possible from these decisions to locate civil service jobs around the country. The truth is, in this day and age, not everyone has to work in central London. We can get better value for money and, as I said, a public service that is closer to the public it serves.

[Chris McDonald]

I particularly welcome the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster saying that he would like to hear more accents from different parts of the country in the civil service. Billingham in Stockton North is home to the UK’s biggest biomanufacturing cluster, and we are also somewhat exposed to international trade with our steel, chemical and automotive sectors. I very much welcome the expansion of the Darlington economic campus in the area of business and trade. Does my right hon. Friend agree that this will provide good jobs for my constituents in Stockton and Billingham, and will he ensure that policy implementation is closer to the source of economic activity?

[Pat McFadden]

We have the former Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Richmond and Northallerton (Rishi Sunak), with us today. He pushed for the Darlington economic campus, which is a good innovation, and I know the current Chancellor of the Exchequer values it greatly. We want not just to relocate jobs, though that is important, but to have thematic campuses that can build up real areas of expertise, whether in digital skills, financial skills, energy skills and so on, to make a real difference to the communities in which these offices are located.

[Rishi Sunak (Richmond and Northallerton) (Con)]

I thank the CDL for what he said, because the Darlington economic campus has been a huge success. It recently passed the milestone of 1,000 jobs, but crucially, 80% of those people were recruited locally, providing opportunities for constituents in my rural area and across the north-east, as we have heard.

The Darlington economic campus is also pioneering a very strong cross-Government approach to working, which is helping to combat the strong departmental DNA that the CDL mentioned. Will he join me in praising the leadership team at DEC for establishing themselves as an indispensable part of Government policymaking, and will he join me in ensuring that Darlington can serve as a model template for other campuses across the UK?

[Pat McFadden]

I join the right hon. Gentleman in praising the leadership team at DEC. He touches on a very important point, because we do not want just to relocate jobs; we want people to have a good career path, too. In some of the civil service offices I have visited around the country since last year, people have raised the question, “Can I pursue a career here that gets me promoted?” It cannot just be about relocation; it has to be about the chance to build a career in these places.

[Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)]

My party was pleased to hear the announcement that GB Energy is coming to Aberdeen, which we have consistently said is the only sensible place for it, as Members would expect an Aberdeen MP to say. Given that GB Energy will bring a maximum of 1,000 jobs over the next 10 years, will the right hon. Gentleman please encourage his ministerial colleagues not to suggest that those jobs will replace the 400 jobs a fortnight that we are set to lose in the offshore energy industry over the next five years?

[Pat McFadden]

Investment in renewables is an energy policy, but it is also an economic and employment policy. I can assure the hon. Member that investment from both the public sector and the private sector will see many good new jobs created in new sources of energy over the coming years and decades.

[Sonia Kumar (Dudley) (Lab)]

I welcome the relocation of civil service jobs across the country. With a recent study showing that Dudley has high levels of economic inactivity, what reassurances can my right hon. Friend give me that young people in Dudley will have every opportunity to build their career in the civil service, whether through training, apprenticeships or mentorships?

[Pat McFadden]

My hon. Friend will not be surprised to hear my strong enthusiasm for greater employment opportunities for young people in the Black Country. When we made the announcement about the relocation last week, we also announced a new apprenticeship scheme, because we not only have to change location; we also have to change recruitment patterns if we are really to get a civil service that speaks with all the accents of the country.

[Esther McVey (Tatton) (Con)]

When the Minister is moving civil service jobs outside London, may I remind him that there is much more to the north than just Manchester and Leeds? Why are the Government moving the Information Commissioner’s Office away from Wilmslow to Manchester, and what assessment has been done of the impact of that move on the economy of Wilmslow?

[Pat McFadden]

Mr Speaker, as you can see, this issue will prompt a lot of Members to stand up for their areas, and they are quite right to do so. As we do this, we will try to bring things together in a way that creates real expertise, and it is not just about cities; it is about other urban and semi-urban areas, too. The technology that allows us to move jobs outside London also allows us to do that.

[Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

8. What recent engagement his Department has had with the Intelligence and Security Committee.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Pat McFadden)]

The Intelligence and Security Committee does important and valuable work. The Cabinet Office engages constructively with the Committee and will continue to do so over the coming months. We have agreed to the Committee’s requested uplift on budgeting and resourcing, which should help it do its job properly over the course of the next Parliament. We are also working with the ISC to identify the best operating model.

[Sir Edward Leigh]

Has the Minister had a discussion with the Intelligence and Security Committee as to why our normally sophisticated operations have not succeeded in making any significant dent in smashing the gangs and stopping the boats? Perhaps he might ask the Committee whether its view is that such is the pull factor and the desperation of these people that the only way we will stop the boats is to do what my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond and Northallerton (Rishi Sunak) was going to do: arrest them, deport them and send them back to where they came from.

[Pat McFadden]

I am not quite sure that was the previous Government’s plan—maybe the right hon. Gentleman wishes it was. This is a hugely important issue for us. It is a security issue as well as an immigration issue. Of course, international policing and security operations to stop these gangs and this trade is a vital part of trying to combat it.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Minister.

[Mr Richard Holden (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

The Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament is unique, made up of Privy Counsellors from both Houses. However, last month the Committee took the highly unusual step of publicly criticising the Government for their failure to allow the Committee the staff and independence to fulfil its role overseeing the circa £3 billion annual spend, for which

“there is no oversight capability.”

The Committee is led by an experienced Labour peer, and it just wants the basics: to have staff who are not totally beholden to the Cabinet Office, so that they can do their job on behalf of Parliament and the country, and to meet the Prime Minister. The work of our intelligence services has never been more important, given the grey zone that states are acting within at the moment, which must be properly overseen.

I asked a written question about when the Prime Minister would deign to meet the Committee. The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead (Ms Oppong-Asare), said that one was being arranged. Has that now happened? I also asked written questions about the independence and resources of the Committee and was told that discussions were ongoing. On a matter of this seriousness, does Parliament not deserve more than fob-off half-answers, and will the Minister provide further details now?

[Pat McFadden]

I do not think the shadow Minister listened to my first answer. For the avoidance of doubt, I said that we have agreed to the Committee’s requested uplift on budgeting and resourcing. Of course, the Prime Minister will be happy to meet the Committee at a convenient time that both can agree.

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[Marie Goldman (Chelmsford) (LD)]

15. What steps he is taking to reform the civil service.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Pat McFadden)]

We want to see a civil service that delivers for the public. The reforms that we are pushing through include greater adoption of technology; relocating civil service jobs around the country, as we have discussed; and, critically, a focus on outcomes in key public service areas, not just the processes that lead to them.

[Marie Goldman]

Many of my Chelmsford constituents are civil servants who travel into London most days of the week to perform their jobs. Last month, a Centre for Economics and Business Research report revealed that the UK may need 92,000 more public workers by 2030 to maintain the same level of output, due to falls in productivity in the sector. However, the Cabinet Office has refused to comment on reports in recent days that the Government plan to cut the number of civil servants by 10% by the end of the decade, which will have an impact on my Chelmsford constituents. Will the Minister confirm today whether a 10% cut to civil service headcount is planned and if any of that will take the form of compulsory redundancy?

[Pat McFadden]

It is fair to ask for productivity improvements from civil servants on behalf of the taxpayer. We have had an increase in hiring over the past 10 years. We do not have a target for a headcount reduction—that was tried under the last Government and did not work—but we do have a target for reduction in admin and overhead spend. We want to work with civil servants on how that will be done. I say to the hon. Lady that when the taxpayer is committing funds to public services, we want to ensure we get maximum productivity in the public sector; we cannot just resign ourselves to lower productivity and the answer always being to hire more people.

[Chris Webb (Blackpool South) (Lab)]

How is the Cabinet Office working with the Department of Health and Social Care to bring down waiting lists, not just in Blackpool but across the UK?

[Pat McFadden]

My hon. Friend will know that waiting lists have fallen by around 200,000 since the election. We set an aim of 2 million extra appointments in the first year; we have not had 2 million extra appointments but 3 million, and the first year is not yet over. We are working closely with the Department of Health and Social Care on that. We know it is just the start: it is a good start, but we have a long way to go to get the health service back to the levels that we want to see.

[Perran Moon (Camborne and Redruth) (Lab)]

16. What recent progress his Department has made on strengthening national resilience.

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[David Chadwick (Brecon, Radnor and Cwm Tawe) (LD)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Pat McFadden)]

Since our last oral questions session, the Government have secured a historic agreement with the European Union that removes a huge amount of cost and bureaucracy from our food and drinks industry, that backs British jobs and that will help British consumers. I thank the Paymaster General for all his excellent work on securing that agreement. We have also set out details of how we will reform the state, moving thousands of civil service jobs around the country and launching a new apprenticeship scheme so that young people, wherever they live, have a better chance of good work in the public service.

[David Chadwick]

This week, I uncovered the Government’s shocking decision to designate the Oxford to Cambridge railway line as an England and Wales project. It is clearly nothing of the sort, and the decision will cost Wales £360 million-worth of funding for our own network. Will the Minister commit to devolving full rail infrastructure powers to Wales in this Parliament?

[Pat McFadden]

I urge the hon. Member to have a little patience until the spending review in a few days’ time. We got a taste of it yesterday, with the Chancellor announcing funding for major transport projects around the country. We are investing in public services not just in England, but right across the United Kingdom. The hon. Member will hear a lot more about that in a few days’ time.

[Markus Campbell-Savours (Penrith and Solway) (Lab)]

T2.   Despite the majority of hereditary peers leaving the other place and the limitations post- election on the Opposition’s ability to appoint new peers, the House of Lords will remain disproportionately dominated by Opposition peers. Why not tweak the Fowler recommendations, set a new limit of 500 and legislate for that in the last year of this Parliament? When that is blocked, as it will be, why not leave reform of the House of Lords to be an issue at the next general election?

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[Alex Burghart (Brentwood and Ongar) (Con)]

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster has already told the House about plans for a reduction in civil service numbers. Since he came into office, how many civil service roles in the Cabinet Office and its agencies have been eliminated?

[Pat McFadden]

We hope to see a reduction of around 2,000 in Cabinet Office numbers over the next few years. We have instituted a voluntary exit scheme, which will make the management of headcount easier and will come into force very soon.

[Alex Burghart]

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster very skilfully talked about the future, rather than the past year. I will let him know that during the past year, the number of roles in his Department and its agencies has increased by 828. That cannot give the House a great deal of confidence that his future cuts will be effective. Will he guarantee that that is a one-off and that he will go back and ensure that the Cabinet Office is actually reduced in size?

[Pat McFadden]

The hon. Gentleman was part of a Government who regularly produced headcount targets for civil servants that were about as reliable as the immigration targets that the Conservatives also produced. I have made it clear that we do not seek a particular headcount target; it depends on what people do. We are trying to reduce the overhead spend, but we are prepared to hire more people when it comes to frontline public service delivery. That is why we are hiring more teachers and getting the waiting lists down. We are not adopting the hon. Gentleman’s approach; therefore, I will not fall into the trap that he is trying to set.

[Dr Jeevun Sandher (Loughborough) (Lab)]

T4. Businesses in my constituency often complain about the shocking Brexit deal that the Conservative party gave us, with more costs, more red tape and more paperwork. That is why Labour Members welcome the new EU deal negotiated by this Government. Can the Minister set out how businesses in my constituency—in Loughborough, Shepshed and the villages—will benefit from our new grown-up relationship with the European Union?

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[Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD)]

Fellow right hon. and hon. Members will have noticed that some political parties have begun accepting cryptocurrency donations—far be it from me to suggest that this might be an attempt to dodge the transparency requirements for donations. Does the Minister join me in welcoming the Electoral Commission’s clear guidance that donations that do not come from a permissible or identifiable source must be returned, and will he be speaking with ministerial colleagues in other Departments about making sure that the forthcoming elections Bill ensures that any political donation involving crypto is fully transparent and in line with our laws?

[Pat McFadden]

It is absolutely right that as finance evolves, so too must the rules we have to ensure transparency and probity in elections. Therefore, the rules regarding the source of funding and the bona fide character of the donors must apply whatever currency is involved.

[Lorraine Beavers (Blackpool North and Fleetwood) (Lab)]

T5.   Labour’s plan to make work pay promised to bring about the biggest wave of insourcing of public services in a generation. Insourced services are often shown to provide better value for money. Will the Government provide an update on their work to ensure that public bodies carry out public interest tests when outsourced contracts expire?

[Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

T7. A recent cyber-attack on schools and early learning IT in my constituency knocked out online access, but also underlined the need for a positive interaction between Scotland’s two Governments, rather than the constant constitutional bickering we have seen in recent years. With cyber-security about to move out of the Cabinet Office, can the Minister assure us about the way in which a positive cross-governmental and intergovernmental approach to these relationships will be secured?

[Pat McFadden]

The hon. Lady raises a good point. At the meeting of the Council of the Nations and Regions that took place a couple of weeks ago, issues of technology were very high on the agenda. We take these forums for dialogue very seriously, and I think I am right in saying that we can have a discussion on this issue without some of the heat that characterises other subjects that come up.

[Jim Dickson (Dartford) (Lab)]

T6.   Given the extremely welcome recent news that economic growth for the first quarter of 2025 was 1.6%, indicating that the Government’s mission to kick-start economic growth in the UK is beginning to work, can the Minister set out what plans exist Government-wide to make sure that that prosperity makes a positive difference to all families in the UK, including in the most deprived neighbourhoods such as Swanscombe and Temple Hill in my constituency?

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[Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)]

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster will know that the UK has some of the best intelligence agencies in the world, and they have huge powers and huge budgets which they use to keep our country safe every single day of the week. He also knows that in any large organisation mistakes are made and public confidence in those agencies is vital. Given that the Intelligence Services Act 1994 is more than 30 years old—there have been some other Acts—is it not time for the Intelligence and Security Committee to have new powers of oversight and even new powers of sanction, so that the public can have confidence that our intelligence agencies have proper scrutiny and oversight?

[Pat McFadden]

Let me echo the right hon. Member’s words in paying tribute to the work that our intelligence and security agencies do in keeping us all safe every day. We discussed the Committee earlier in these questions. The Government have approved an uplift in resources for the Committee, and we are working closely with it on the best operating model for doing its job as effectively as possible.

[Lincoln Jopp (Spelthorne) (Con)]

Mr Speaker,

“The only good Tory is a dead Tory. Kill your local MP”—

so said the controversial Ulster rap band who remain on the bill at Glastonbury. Given that is the case, can the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster reassure the House that no Cabinet Office Ministers will be attending Glastonbury this year?

[Pat McFadden]

I will not be going to Glastonbury, but I am very much looking forward to seeing Bruce Springsteen at Anfield stadium on Saturday night.