Oral Answers to Questions

Pat McFadden Excerpts

Thursday 25th July 2024 Commons Chamber

[Dr Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab)]

10. What recent estimate he has made of the cost to the public purse of fraud and error in Government departments and agencies.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Pat McFadden)]

Government estimates of the amount of money lost to fraud and error vary hugely, in truth: the latest estimate has a range of between £40 billion and almost £60 billion, which is a huge range. The public rightly expect us to do all we can to minimise fraud in the use of public funds, which is one reason why my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has announced the establishment of a covid corruption commissioner, whose job it will be to track down as much as possible of the money lost to fraud during the pandemic. The Cabinet Office will work closely with the Chancellor on this to try to ensure best value for money for the public and, of course, crack down on fraud right across Government Departments and agencies.

[Tom Rutland]

Covid contract fraud has cost the public purse an estimated £7.6 billion, with the previous Government assigning contracts worth billions for useless personal protective equipment to those with close personal connections to Ministers through their so-called VIP lane. With the Chancellor announcing a new covid fraud commissioner this week, can the Minister please outline how his Department will work with the Treasury to support that commissioner, in order to ensure that this egregious waste of public money is rectified and the British taxpayer gets back what they are owed?

[Pat McFadden]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to draw attention to what happened during covid, when VIP lanes and dodgy contracts ended up burning through billions of pounds, sometimes for unusable equipment. We will do everything we can to recover money that has been lost, and my Department will work closely with the office of the covid corruption commissioner to oversee that work and try to ensure the best value possible for the taxpayer.

[Chris Vince]

New technology must be at the beating heart of the new Government, and artificial intelligence presents an opportunity to tackle waste and error. The National Audit Office has claimed that the counter-fraud agencies are only just beginning to utilise new technologies in their fight against public sector fraud, and rely on outdated legacy systems and incomplete, time-lagged data. How will the Minister implement new technologies, including AI, to tackle fraud and error in government?

[Pat McFadden]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right: there is potential for greater use of AI in detecting and rooting out fraud. We want the UK to be an excellent place to develop new uses of AI, both in its public sector applications and the development of private business. There is already a single network analytics platform, which is an AI-based detection tool to help public sector organisations detect fraud, but like many AI applications, we are probably only at the beginning of what can be achieved in this area. We should use every technological tool at our disposal to secure best value for money for the taxpayer.

[Dr Huq]

As well as Matt Hancock’s pub landlord scoring a PPE contract despite having zero relevant expertise, non-covid error, fraud and waste cost the public purse £58.5 billion in the year 2020-21 alone. Could my right hon. Friend tell us how those colossal sums of money will be recovered? He mentioned a commissioner; can he also tell us how we will get rid of cronyism and nepotism, so that these things never happen again?

[Pat McFadden]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to draw attention to the scale of the problem. The truth is that, according to the latest figures, the amount that has been recovered is relatively small compared with the scale of loss. The previous Government’s own former Minister for counter-fraud described the Conservative party’s record as “nothing less than woeful” and riddled with “schoolboy errors”, and the shadow Business Secretary, the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake), described the previous Prime Minister’s handling of this issue as dismissive. We cannot afford to be dismissive: we have a duty to take it seriously and use whatever means we can to bear down on fraud, so that money meant for public services and legitimate recipients of public funds is used for its intended purposes.

[Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD)]

I want to highlight innocent errors where Government systems are failing to pick up overpayments and as a result people are chased. I am thinking particularly of unpaid carers earning just a few extra pounds, which means that the Department for Work and Pensions is clawing back thousands from them in carer’s allowance, because HMRC systems fail to alert the DWP when earnings have increased. What is the Cabinet Office doing to ensure that Government systems properly work to stop these things happening?

[Pat McFadden]

This issue has been highlighted more than once in the Chamber this week. We are of course hugely appreciative of the job that carers do, and that has to be balanced with the proper use of public funds so that those funds get to the intended recipients. Where there are overpayments, they do need to be recovered in the interests of the taxpayer, but I hope that is always done in a proper and compassionate manner.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I very much welcome the Minister to his place and wish him well in the role he now plays. This is a vastly important question right across the whole United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Does he hold statistics for Northern Ireland on the costs of fraud and error to the public purse, and what discussions will he undertake with the devolved institutions to improve financial decisions, particularly at the Northern Ireland Assembly?

[Pat McFadden]

This is my first but I suspect not my last exchange with the hon. Member. I have not seen a specific breakdown of this figure for Northern Ireland, but I can tell him that we take relations with Northern Ireland extremely seriously. That is why the Prime Minister went to Northern Ireland, as well as Scotland and Wales, on the weekend after the general election.

[Mary Glindon (Newcastle upon Tyne East and Wallsend) (Lab)]

2. Whether he plans to take steps to consolidate the number of national pay bargaining units in the civil service.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Ind)]

7. Whether he plans to take steps to consolidate the number of national pay bargaining units in the civil service.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Pat McFadden)]

Yesterday, I met the civil service unions together with the new Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Queen’s Park and Maida Vale (Georgia Gould). We had a very positive discussion covering a whole range of issues. I made it clear that the days of Government Ministers waging culture wars against civil servants are over. Instead, we want a civil service that is motivated, valued and helps the Government to deliver their priorities. On the specific issue of pay, the Government will have more to say on civil service pay before the summer recess.

[Mary Glindon]

In 14 years, the Tory Government did nothing to tackle the ludicrous situation whereby there are over 200 pay bargaining units for civil servants across all Government Departments and agencies, a highly time-consuming and inefficient process that generates unfair pay disparities between people doing near-identical jobs in different Government offices. Will the Minister take this opportunity to look again at whether pay bargaining can be consolidated across the civil service, and will he agree to meet the Public and Commercial Services Union to discuss the advantages of such reforms?

[Pat McFadden]

We do value civil servants, and of course we want all public servants to be properly and fairly rewarded. As with any public expenditure, what is spent on pay has to be balanced against other priorities and fair to taxpayers as a whole. On meeting the PCS, yesterday, I met the general secretary of the PCS, as well as other civil service unions. I hope for a fruitful dialogue with them. Departments do have flexibility on pay. They can direct pay towards the needs of their own workforces. As I have said, we will have more to say about civil service pay before the summer recess.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

I thank the Minister for the reply he has just given. Will he assure the House that he is going to make progress towards a return to full sectoral bargaining? He must be aware that many thousands of civil servants are not covered by a pay review body or any other bargaining mechanism. Will he take steps to ensure that all civil servants are bought within the purview of a pay review body bargaining unit as part of a return to sectoral bargaining?

[Pat McFadden]

I thank the right hon. Member for his question. I hope to have a good and fruitful dialogue with the civil service unions about pay and many other issues. It is important that we have public servants who feel valued and motivated, and who do their part on delivering the Government’s objectives. On the specific issue of pay that he has raised, as I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East and Wallsend (Mary Glindon), the Government will have more to say on civil service pay before the summer recess.

[Luke Murphy (Basingstoke) (Lab)]

3. What recent estimate he has made of the cost to the public purse of fraud in public procurement during the covid-19 pandemic.

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[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Pat McFadden)]

Digital technologies will be vital to the delivery of the Government’s missions and to effective public services. Yesterday, the Prime Minister announced the move of the Government Digital Service’s central digital and data office and the incubator for artificial intelligence from the Cabinet Office to the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology. The Treasury and the Cabinet Office will work closely with DSIT on this. Creating a strong digital centre of Government is intended to help drive forward innovation and ensure a better experience for the citizens who use Government services.

[Lucy Rigby]

I welcome the entire ministerial team to their places. The UK has the chance to become a world leader in bringing new technologies into the heart of Government. The concept of a mission-led Government provides a unique opportunity to do exactly that. What steps is my right hon. Friend taking to ensure that digital technologies are used to support the Government’s missions, to deliver for my constituents in Northampton North and across the country?

[Pat McFadden]

My hon. Friend is right that the UK has the potential to be a leader in this area. It is all about securing both value for money for the taxpayer and the best possible citizen experience for users of public services. It is with that in mind that we are creating a strong digital centre of Government. The DSIT Secretary is in the driving seat, working closely with the Cabinet Office and the Treasury to try to achieve those twin aims.

[Josh Simons]

Despite significant spending of taxpayer cash, as in so many things, public sector productivity got worse under the last Government. When I worked in artificial intelligence, it was clear that so many of the barriers to harnessing technology are specific, granular and often not glamorous, such as sharing data better across organisations. Has the Minister assessed how digital technologies can be used to increase productivity in the public sector and improve public services?

[Pat McFadden]

I thank my hon. Friend for his question, and let me take this opportunity to thank the right hon. Member for Salisbury (John Glen) for the work he did on public sector productivity. My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I suspect we are only in the foothills of the potential here. That is why we have created this strong digital centre of Government. We want to ensure good value for money and to use tech to improve the citizens’ experience. The real challenge here is to reform public services to match the constant innovation that people experience in other parts of their lives. We cannot have a world where that innovation is experienced in the private sphere, but is not applied and properly maximised in the public sphere, so that is what we want to do.

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

12. What progress the Government has made on establishing an ethics and integrity commission.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Pat McFadden)]

It is important to restore confidence in Government and public life, and to ensure the best possible standards. This was an important manifesto commitment. We will establish a new independent ethics and integrity commission, with its own independent chair, to ensure the highest possible standards. Work has begun on that, and I will keep the House up to date as it develops.

[Debbie Abrahams]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his response and welcome all the team to their places. Will he expand a little bit more on exactly what the terms of reference might include? For example, will they also include participative and deliberative democracy methods that might also help to restore trust in politics, which, as he knows, is at an all-time low?

[Pat McFadden]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I will certainly keep her up to date with this as it goes. In truth, this is always going to be about “show, not tell”. We will set up the best system that we can with the new commission. On that front, the Leader of the House, my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell) is taking immediate action to tighten the existing prohibition on MPs providing paid parliamentary advice. The House will be debating that later today. We are also setting up a modernisation committee. So, on several fronts we want to get the right systems in place, but in the end it is a matter of show, not tell.

[Joe Powell (Kensington and Bayswater) (Lab)]

14. What steps he is taking with Cabinet colleagues to help ensure value for money in public procurement.

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[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Pat McFadden)]

My Department has begun its work on helping the Government to deliver on our manifesto, and we are focused on the first steps and missions that we spoke about during the election campaign. We will play our full part in driving forward the announcements made by the Government, such as establishing a national wealth fund, lifting the ban on onshore wind, and beginning the changes needed to get Britain building again. We have also responded to the first module of the covid report published last week, and the Minister without Portfolio, my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham West and East Dulwich (Ellie Reeves), made a statement on the IT outage, which exposed the fragility of the systems we all rely on.

[Andrew George]

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for his response. Given that it is the Department’s responsibility to investigate waste, will it also investigate the impact? My inquiries have revealed that £242 million of taxpayers’ money was spent on covid aid that was handed out to holiday home owners in Cornwall during that period, whereas only a fraction of that amount has been given to support those who are desperately in need of affordable homes, with many locals being displaced by the massive growth of holiday homes in the area. Will the Government please investigate the impact—be it positive or negative—of spending that kind of public money?

[Pat McFadden]

I assure the hon. Member that we take value for money seriously; it has been a theme of today’s questions. The Government supported businesses during covid—necessarily and rightly—but it is important to ensure the best value for money in such schemes. In the end, it is all taxpayers’ money, so that should have been done. Where that is not the case, and where there has been fraud or waste, we will do our best to recover what was wrongly spent.

[Mr Speaker]

Can we pick up the pace of questions and answers? We are on topicals now. Rachel Hopkins will set a good example.

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[Sir Oliver Dowden (Hertsmere) (Con)]

I begin by welcoming the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster to his position. I know that he will be supported by a brilliant team of civil servants who are truly dedicated to public service. As we saw in module 1 of the covid inquiry report last week, biological threats pose potentially catastrophic risks to our nation, and those risks will be exacerbated by long-term trends such as climate change. To help to prepare us, I published the UK biological security strategy. Will he take the opportunity to recommit to its objectives and to provide an annual update to the House on its implementation?

[Pat McFadden]

I welcome the right hon. Member to his position. I mean that genuinely: it is not easy to step up and serve in opposition after an election defeat, so I welcome what he and his colleagues are doing. I echo his praise for the civil service and the Cabinet Office team, who have supported me and my colleagues in the best way in the past few weeks. On the UK biological security strategy, my answer is simple and short: yes.

[Mr Speaker]

Let us keep going in that way.

[Sir Oliver Dowden]

I welcome that answer and I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his kind words. An effective strategy must be underpinned by dedicated resources, which is why one of my final acts in the Cabinet Office was to announce that we would ringfence biological security spending across Government. Will he uphold that commitment, so that important resilience spending does not fall victim to day-to-day spending pressures?

[Pat McFadden]

If the right hon. Member set aside spending for his commitments, he did something pretty rare for the last Government. When we look under the bonnet, we find that that was not often the case. We will have more to say about that in the coming days.

[David Taylor (Hemel Hempstead) (Lab)]

T3. I welcome the Front-Bench team to their roles. The people of Hemel Hempstead put their trust in me because they want change, particularly on issues such as healthcare, on which the last Government failed to deliver. Can the Minister update the House on the changes that the Government are planning to make for my constituents and constituents around the country?

[Pat McFadden]

We are getting on with our first steps, including on healthcare, which is a top priority for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care. We want to make the NHS fit for the future. We did it before and we can do it again.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Lib Dem spokesperson.

[Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

This summer, we have been celebrating 25 years of devolution in Scotland. In the last Parliament, the Scottish Affairs Committee looked at how the relationship between the UK and Scottish Governments has deteriorated in the past decade and how we can improve it. Does the Minister agree that in the next tranche of devolution, we should look at how to improve relationships with the devolved Administrations and regional authorities? Perhaps we should set up a UK council of Ministers to involve Ministers from all the Administrations and regional mayors.

[Pat McFadden]

We intend to set up a council of nations and regions. The hon. Member is right to say that we need to improve relations. That is easier said than done because such organisations are run by political parties, but I hope that the election result, in all its facets, represents the opportunity for a bit of a reset and better relations in future.

[Joe Powell (Kensington and Bayswater) (Lab)]

T4. In just over a month, phase 2 of the Grenfell inquiry will report. There will be implications for the entire Government, but what preparations have been made ahead of the report’s publication? Will the Minister commit to engaging with the bereaved, survivors and the affected community before the Government respond in full to the recommendations?

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[Pat McFadden]

We will do everything we can to collect the greatest amount of tax possible—that is right. We are interested in value for money and, given the legacy that we have inherited, I assure the right hon. Member that that is needed.

[Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)]

T5. During the pandemic, my requests to the then Government to source personal protective equipment from local, UK manufacturers were largely ignored. Will the Minister insist that any covid corruption commissioner listens to companies such as Tecman and Comtest in my constituency about what happened at that time?

[Pat McFadden]

All lessons should be learned about the procurement pressures at that time, including the lesson that my hon. Friend mentioned.

[Richard Foord (Honiton and Sidmouth) (LD)]

T9. We heard at the covid inquiry that Cabinet Office structures were not designed to manage a whole-of-Government crisis. What might the Government change to better prepare for the next emergency?

[Pat McFadden]

The great danger is preparing perfectly for the last war. The real challenge in resilience is looking around the corner for things that have not already happened. As we respond to the covid pandemic, it is important to keep that in mind, and we will try to do that.

[Sarah Coombes (West Bromwich) (Lab)]

T6. The covid-19 pandemic devastated families in West Bromwich. In our borough of Sandwell, 1,476 people lost their lives. Now the covid inquiry is exposing just how poorly prepared we were and that insufficient thought was given to how the pandemic would affect ethnic minority and deprived communities. What will the Government do to work with local government and across the board to ensure that we are better prepared in future?

[Dame Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)]

On behalf of the 12% of people in my constituency who have served in the armed forces, I ask the Cabinet Secretary to explain why he is not joined by a veterans Minister on the Front Bench this morning.

[Pat McFadden]

That is because responsibility for veterans is being transferred to the Ministry of Defence, which is a better home for it. Looking after our veterans will be a big priority in the Ministry of Defence.

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[Mr Speaker]

Order. We are all on a learning curve, but we do need to ask short, punchy questions. Also, “you” means me, but I am sure that we will not be doing that again.

[Pat McFadden]

On this, perhaps the simplest thing is for my hon. Friend to write to me, so that I can get her question considered by the proper Minister.

[Mr Speaker]

That completes questions. Before we move to the business questions, I shall let those on the Front Benches leave.