Health and Social Care

Matt Hancock Excerpts

Tuesday 7th September 2021 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

After a long career of listening to Liberal Democrat opportunism, I do not think that I have heard anything quite so absurd. The right hon. Gentleman calls for more funding and then attacks the Government for providing the wherewithal to do exactly what he wants. We will be spending half a billion pounds supporting carers, and there will be 700,000 more training places. The plan supports adult care. It supports everybody who needs care up and down the country; it is not just care for the elderly.

[Matt Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con)]

The reform of social care has been ducked for decades because successive Governments have put it in the too difficult box. I congratulate the Prime Minister on delivering on our commitments and his commitment. May I ask him to ensure that, as well as the money, we integrate properly the NHS with social care so that people can get the dignity that they deserve?

Public Health

Matt Hancock Excerpts

Tuesday 1st December 2020 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Matt Hancock)]

This debate this afternoon, and into this evening, has been on one of the great challenges of our time: how to respond as a country to this unprecedented pandemic. Our response to coronavirus has forced each and every one of us in this House to wrestle with fundamental questions of life and liberty, and to take and support measures that nobody would ever want in a liberal democracy. Like every other like-minded nation across the world, we are striving to take targeted action such as the measures before the House today. It is striking that the measures that we take in this country, and the measures in these regulations before the House, are similar in kind and seek to strike the same balance as measures in similar countries the world over. Like every like-minded nation, we face the same challenges, because this is a global challenge and a global pandemic. We seek a balance between our historic rights and our moral duty to keep one another safe, and it is not just about keeping ourselves safe. Because of the nature of this virus, it is about the importance of keeping others safe by our own actions, too.

Nobody wants to go into another national lockdown. These restrictions bring me, as a lover of freedom, no joy, but nor can we throw away all the work that we have done together to get this virus under control. With the winter ahead, and the problems that that always brings, and with the virus still at large, we must maintain our vigilance. Thanks to the incredible hard work and the sacrifices that people have made over the past four weeks, the virus is coming under control. The rates of infection are coming down, and in some parts of the country they are coming down sharply.

[Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con)]

The Secretary of State will know that Warrington moves from tier 3 to tier 2 tomorrow. At the start of the lockdown, we had case rates of more than 450 per 100,000. We are now at 147 per 100,00. I am sure he will join me in thanking everybody in Warrington who has worked so hard to bring those rates down, but can he assure me that mass testing will be made available to Warrington, as it was in Liverpool just down the road, so that we can keep Warrington in tier 2 and not bounce back up to tier 3?

[Matt Hancock]

Yes; I was going to say that my hon. Friend need just ask, but I think he did. I will ensure that the national team and his local team at Warrington Council are put in touch right away, if they are not in touch already, because we are extending the availability of mass testing throughout tier 3 and throughout the wider area close to Liverpool, which Warrington was in tier 3 restrictions with until we went into national lockdown.

I am sure that my hon. Friend will agree that, as the experience of Warrington and Liverpool shows, we can afford to let up a little, but we just can’t afford to let up a lot. Let that be the message that goes out from this House. We know through repeated experience what happens if the virus gets out of control. If it gets out of control, it grows exponentially, hospitals come under pressure and people die. This is not just speculation. It is a fact that has affected thousands of families, including my own. We talk a lot of the outbreak in Liverpool, and how that great city has had a terrible outbreak and got it under control. This means more to me than I can say, because last month my step-grandfather Derek caught covid there and on 18 November he died. In my family, as in so many others, we have lost a loving husband, father and grandfather to this awful disease, so from the bottom of my heart I want to say thank you to everyone in Liverpool for getting this awful virus under control. It is down by four fifths in Liverpool. That is what we can do if we work together in a spirit of common humanity. We have got to beat this and we have got to beat it together.

I know that there are costs to the actions we take—of course I know that—but let us not forget the impact of covid itself. First, there are the health impacts. People do not live with covid—we cannot learn to live with covid; people die with covid. There is also the economic impact directly from covid. Where someone has to self-isolate and their contacts have to self-isolate, that itself has an adverse impact on services in the economy. I understand why people are frustrated that it is impossible to put figures on the economic impacts, but they are uncertain and we are dealing with a pandemic that leads to so much uncertainty. The tiered system is designed specifically to be the best proportionate response we can bring together, with the minimum measures necessary to get the virus under control when it is too high, yet the fewer measures where prevalence is low. The only alternative is a national set of measures, which would have to be calibrated to bring the virus under control where it is high and rising, as it is in Kent right now. That is the principle behind the tiered system and why it is the best way forward this winter.

[Derek Twigg]

May I offer my condolences and say how sorry I am to hear of the loss in the Secretary of State’s family? May I also ask him: what about the people who die because of the unintended consequences of covid, perhaps through cancer or heart disease, where they have not been seen quickly enough or have not come forward?

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Hancock]

The hon. Gentleman, who is also from Merseyside, makes an important point. It is undoubtedly clear that the best way to preserve life among those who suffer from diseases that are not covid is to keep covid under control. Everybody who works in an NHS hospital will confirm that, because the pressures on the NHS from covid make it harder to treat cancer. In this second outbreak we have successfully managed to keep cancer services going—going at over 100% of their normal last year in many areas—thanks to the hard work of the NHS.

[Sir John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend is, of course, right to say that measured controls and restrictions are necessary to defeat this disease, but will he confirm that these tiers are not set in stone? Will he confirm that the review in December will, in the words of a letter he sent to me today, mean that areas will be considered within counties, on their “merits”, and that action will be taken accordingly to ease those restrictions, where possible?

[Matt Hancock]

Yes, of course. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister set out earlier what happens if an area meets the five criteria. We have set out those five criteria: the pressures on the NHS, which we were just discussing; the case rates; the case rates in the over-60s—this is because of the direct impact that has on hospital admissions; the direction of travel of those case rates—this is because if it is rising fast, that is more dangerous; and the positivity. If an area meets the five criteria, of course we will seek to reduce the tier on that basis, and we will do that on the basis of the most localised geography that it is epidemiologically relevant to act in. This is about the human geographies that the Prime Minister spoke about with such eloquence earlier.

Let me turn to some of the many speeches that have been made, as I want to highlight a few. First, my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Sir Bernard Jenkin) gave a wise speech, talking about how there is no alternative. This phrase—“There is no alternative”—came up again, for example, from my hon. Friend the Member for Hastings and Rye (Sally-Ann Hart). The right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) talked of the uncertainty in decision making, which was meant not as a criticism but as a description. That is something that I and those of us with the burden of decision making in this pandemic know only too well. But, as he said, there are facts, including about the power of vaccination, and on that he is absolutely right.

There were a number of excellent speeches from Members across the House both in favour of and against this action. I understand that reasonable people have different views on what are very difficult decisions. My right hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) talked about the lesser of evils, and many talked about the decisions ahead of us not being easy because none is straightforward. As my hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle (Huw Merriman) said, it is about choosing the least damaging course to take.

I pay particular tribute to some of the newer Members of the House, including my hon. Friends the Members for Don Valley (Nick Fletcher) and for Hyndburn (Sara Britcliffe), who made impassioned pleas in support of the Government. They said that it is not about doing what will win short-term popularity, but doing what is right, and that is the approach that we seek to take. Others asked about the publication of more data in real time. The challenge is that we publish data on the day that it comes to us, but it takes a few days to get all the results in and therefore to know the true trajectory of the disease, so there is a natural and unavoidable gap between getting the full data and the time that we are in now. That is why we look at the data from up to four days ago, because after that date, it can increase.

Many Members made points about the hospitality sector. My heart goes out to those in the hospitality sector. The Prime Minister has set out more support for wet pubs, and rightly so. The hospitality sector has benefited from more support from this Government in the pandemic than any other sector. Overall, the economic support provided by this Government has been set out by the International Monetary Fund as being one of the most generous packages in the world. We cannot support and protect all jobs, but we seek to protect as many jobs as we can, because we can protect jobs as well as protecting lives—that is the goal. We cannot protect all lives, and we cannot protect all jobs, but we seek to protect them both.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Dehenna Davison) said that we have the right to do not what we please but what is right. In a pandemic, that is true of us all—it is true of every individual who has to choose how they act. The restrictions in these measures are not what everybody should push the boundaries of, but the limits up to which we should go, because we all have within ourselves the ability to stop the passing on of this virus to others. She made that point clearly struggling with the restrictions on liberty on which we vote tonight, but coming to the view that they are a lesser restriction than those we live under today, and they are a necessary restriction in order to protect life.

The consequences of inaction would be far worse than the consequences of these actions. Voting against these restrictions tonight is, in fact, a vote to allow the entire system to lapse tomorrow. I know that every Member of this House wants to control the virus, and no one wants to see the NHS overwhelmed, so support the motion to protect the NHS. Support the motion to back the nurses who we all clapped in the spring. Support the motion to back the doctors working on our wards every night. Support the motion to back the teachers who are working so hard to keep our schools open and to back the care workers looking after the most vulnerable. Support this motion to back the businesses that do not want another national lockdown, because that would be the only alternative. By voting for this motion, Members are supporting all those people and the public, who want to see us act together.

I can honestly say that from all my experience this terrible year, this proposal draws on all the lessons and all the learnings from our experience.

We have come so far in our fight against the virus. We are on the cusp of the scientific breakthroughs, the vaccines and the community testing that will let us cast aside the curbs that it demands. The end is in sight. The measures are temporary and time-limited, but no less necessary for that. The return of our freedoms is on the horizon. The virus is back under control. The NHS has been protected. Let us not throw it all away now. We must have the resolve, not to do what is easy, but what is right. I commend the motion to the House.

Question put.

Covid-19: Winter Plan

Matt Hancock Excerpts

Monday 23rd November 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Before we get too carried away, until we get the Prime Minister back we will continue with the questions. Is it all right with the Health Secretary to pick up the answer that we lost halfway through?

[The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Matt Hancock)]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. In addition to what the Prime Minister said before we lost the audio, although the tier 3 restrictions that have been set out are less stringent than the national lockdown, it is necessary to get the R down under the tiered system in order to avoid a further national lockdown if the cases still go up. As we have set out, we have seen the case rates come down in some areas of the country, and now, thankfully, we are seeing the case rates come down nationally.

The final point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) was about other health and economic impacts. Of course we recognise the economic impacts. On the other health impacts, I simply reiterate what I have said many times before, which is that the health impacts of not locking down on health conditions other than coronavirus and of the spread of the coronavirus going too broad are also bad. The best way to protect the health of the nation both from coronavirus and from all other conditions is to keep the virus under control.

[Ed Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD)]

I think this makes the case for investing in broadband.

May I ask the Secretary of State a very serious question? From the lack of tests and PPE to the claims about a protective ring around care homes while people died in horrifying numbers, the Government’s abject failure to protect care home residents and care staff has been one of the biggest tragedies of this pandemic. Will the Secretary of State today guarantee that no care home in England will be required or pressurised to admit anyone from an NHS hospital who has tested positive for covid?

[Matt Hancock]

Over the summer, we put in place a new regime for ensuring that people who test positive but need to go to a care home can get the support they need in a way that protects them and also protects other residents. That means nobody leaves hospital without a test and that those with a positive test who need to leave hospital must be isolated in a CQC-approved isolation facility. We, of course, need to support people who have tested positive and hospital is often not the best place for them, but we need to do that in a way that protects all other residents as well. At the same time, I am delighted that we are able to announce the expansion of the availability of testing for care homes, domiciliary care workers and care home visiting, which I know is hugely welcomed.

[Jack Brereton (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Con)]

We have seen huge efforts across Stoke-on-Trent to get covid rates down. The city council has done an excellent job of rolling out testing and rates are now falling locally. Will my right hon. Friend do everything possible to ensure support continues to be given to local health and council services, so we do not exit lockdown at the highest tier?

[Matt Hancock]

I pay tribute to everybody in Stoke: the council, the Royal Stoke University Hospital, the wider NHS and our three colleagues in this House who represent Stoke, including my hon. Friend, who have worked so hard together to get high-quality public health messaging out. We can see the cases coming down in Stoke. As the Prime Minister set out, on Thursday we will announce decisions, taking into account the very latest data on which areas fall into which tiers.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

While millions will welcome the fact that they will now be able to shop, worship, and associate with friends and family over Christmas, does the Secretary of State not realise how alarming this statement is today? Rather than being grateful for an announcement that allows us to exercise some basic freedoms, should we not be alarmed that to do the things that people would normally expect in a democracy now rests in the hands of a Minister and the state? Does he accept that today’s statement will still deny people the right to earn a living, will drive millions into poverty, and will still instil fear? That should indicate that this policy is the wrong track.

[Matt Hancock]

The first duty of any Government is to keep the citizens of the country we serve safe. That is the reason we take the actions we do.

[Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

I hope the Secretary of State will not think me too eccentric if I say that on a winter’s morning I like to start my day by swimming the Serpentine and then going to mass. Of course, he abolished both of those things in the past four weeks. More important, he abolished them for hundreds of thousands of people. My question to him is this: under any tier or future lockdown, can we never return to the abolition of healthy outdoor sports or going to religious services? There has never been a shred of evidence that they cause any problem. By the way, this is the first time in 800 years that people have been prevented from going to church in this country, since it was put under an interdict by a medieval pope. We want reassurance on that. As well as having that conversation, could he give us some more reassurance about Christmas carols? We do not want it to be just a holy night; we do not want it to be a silent night either.

[Matt Hancock]

I very much hope that we will not have another national lockdown at all. One of the reasons that we have toughened up tier 3 is to ensure that, if areas are in tier 3, we can get the virus coming down as opposed to just flattening at a high rate, as we were seeing earlier. In that way, I hope that we can prevent the whole country from ever having to see the sorts of restrictions that we have had to introduce in order to keep people safe.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

It has to be said that news of the three vaccinations brings us a much-needed dose of hope as we face the winter months. Wales is especially vulnerable to covid-19 because of our older population and our higher levels of deprivation. Will the Secretary of State ensure that Wales receives a sufficient allocation of vaccines based on need and not per head of population?

[Matt Hancock]

It is absolutely vital that we vaccinate fairly across this country—across the whole of the UK— according to clinical need. That is the agreement that we have reached among the four nations. It is the principle that I am determined to follow, given that, obviously, the UK vaccination programme will cover the whole United Kingdom. On that basis, we have agreed a fair allocation of vaccine so that vaccination can occur at the same speed in all parts of the country according to clinical need.

[Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con) [V]]

Given the big sacrifices that York residents have made to get the virus down locally, does the Secretary of State accept how unfair it will feel if the city is kept in high tier restrictions even when our covid rate is considerably lower than it was when we entered tier 2 and one of the lowest in our regions? Does he agree that the new restrictions policy has to give people hope that self-discipline and resilience will be rewarded?

[Matt Hancock]

Yes, those values are important and should be rewarded. I hope that, in the areas of the country where the case rate has really come down a long way and is coming down fast, we will see the fruits of that effort. Having said that, it is absolutely critical that areas that need to go into tier 3 do so in order to get the case rate down and to protect the population. We will take these judgments based on public health advice over the forthcoming days. The reason that we have not set those details out today is that the more data we have the better. We want to give businesses time to plan to be able to reopen, but, at the same time, we do want to take into account the very latest data. In York, as in some other parts of the country, the number of cases is coming down, and I welcome that, but I want to see a few more days’ data before we can take those final decisions.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green) [V]]

If these tougher tiers are to deliver sustained reductions in transmission then test, trace, isolate has to work better. Will the Secretary of State learn the lessons from countries where compliance with self-isolation is much higher, pay people more where necessary, offer hotel accommodation if needed, and fix the app so that people told to self-isolate via the app can now qualify for support? Will the Government stop repeating that they have given £13 billion to the self-employed when 3 million of them have been unfairly deemed to be ineligible? It is not good enough to say that it is too difficult or that we should wait until the economy is moving again. I say to the Minister: no ifs, no buts, no excuses, when will he give those people some hope?

[Matt Hancock]

The whole country knows that we are going through very difficult times, but I hope that the news, especially on vaccines, that we have seen over the past fortnight offers some hope about the way out. The hon. Lady mentions the test and trace system, as did the right hon. and learned Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer). I am very glad to say that not only is the testing regime and the opportunities that we have to roll out testing expanding very rapidly—I pay tribute to the team for that—but the contact tracing is improving. I am really pleased about that and pay tribute to all those who have been working to make that happen.

[Dr Neil Hudson (Penrith and The Border) (Con) [V]]

Quite rightly, we are keeping young people in full-time education at this time. The outdoor education sector provides an amazing parallel education for children, and there are many centres in Cumbria and across the UK. These centres are ready for covid-secure programmes where pupils who are in bubbles at school can be safely accommodated. Will my right hon. Friend work across Government to look at reopening these centres as soon as possible for residential visits, so that whole cohorts of young children do not miss out on this vital and life-affirming educational opportunity?

[Matt Hancock]

My hon. Friend makes a powerful case for a sector that is obviously prevalent in his beautiful constituency, and I look forward to working with him to see what progress we can make.

[Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance) [V]]

I welcome the progress that has been made on a co-ordinated approach across the four countries of the UK around the Christmas season. Given the particular context of Northern Ireland and, indeed, all the links across the Irish sea, can the Secretary of State ensure that this planning also includes the Irish Government? Can I also suggest that, in doing that, the most immediate priority should be given to clarity on travel arrangements, but some care also needs to be taken in relation to the precise guidance on household mixing?

[Matt Hancock]

Yes, I will absolutely take the hon. Gentleman’s points on board in the conversations that Ministers are having across the devolved nations of the United Kingdom, including his point about the enormous number of ties, including family ties, between the UK and Republic of Ireland. As he knows, the common travel area is there between the UK and the Republic, so travel to the Republic from the UK side has never been restricted. That is a point of principle and policy, and I know that it is important for the people of Northern Ireland.

[Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con)]

It is welcome news that Ipswich Hospital found out on 11 November that it would be receiving £5.2 million for a new molecular laboratory. This will allow the hospital to ramp up rapid testing to almost 3,000 a day by the end of March. We have also heard reports that Suffolk’s first site for delivering vaccinations will be ready in two weeks’ time, with the NHS proposing the Gainsborough sports centre in Ipswich. Testing and vaccinations are two crucial ways to beat the virus, so does my right hon. Friend agree that having Ipswich at the forefront of both these key issues will be a real boost to Ipswich residents?

[Matt Hancock]

We have put millions of pounds into Ipswich Hospital, and I know that my hon. Friend supports Ipswich Hospital very strongly indeed. I am glad that across Suffolk and across the whole of the country we are now putting in place the vaccination hubs that will be there and ready, should the regulator sign off a new vaccine. I do not want to intrude on the rigorous independence of the medical regulator—the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency, which will make the decision on the safety of these vaccines—but should it be approved, the NHS will be ready to begin the roll-out and I set the NHS the challenge of ensuring that it can roll out at the speed at which these vaccines can be manufactured and produced.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op) [V]]

Will the Secretary of State impart my question to the Prime Minister? Can I beg him at this late stage to change his mind? This is a national emergency, and his policy announced today will end up with critical and perhaps tragic results for my constituents and for our country. I represent Huddersfield, in Kirklees, which is a classic average typical town in Britain, and we have worked better and harder than anyone else to get the rates down under the tier system, but we have not been successful. Under the national plan, however, we have started to get there. We only have to keep ourselves under restrictions for a few more weeks, and then we will have the antidote. Please change your mind, Minister. Change your mind, Prime Minister. We must stop deaths occurring that could be avoided.

[Matt Hancock]

The tiered system that has been set out by the Prime Minister today is calibrated very carefully, learning all the lessons from the lockdowns that have been in place and from the previous tiered system, as well as from evidence from around the world and, indeed, from the devolved nations. It has to be calibrated to be able to bring infections down, but to do so in a way that also protects the other things that matter in life as much as possible. It is necessary that tier 3, in particular, is tougher than before, not least because of the experience of Huddersfield, Kirklees and other places that were in tier 3 for quite a long time, but saw a flattening rather than a reduction in their rates. That is why we have brought in a tougher tier 3. It nevertheless allows for the reopening of religious settings and non-essential retail, which are so important to many.

[Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con)]

Millions of people will be delighted to hear that grassroots sports will return from 3 December. Will the Secretary of State confirm that that will be the case in all three tiers? With regard to the tiers, will consideration be given to variances across big counties and regions? For example, the conditions in the Thames estuary can seem very different and distant from those on the south Kent coast.

[Matt Hancock]

I am delighted that outdoor sports are able to reopen. Like the Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, I have had significant representations from people who want to exercise, which of course is good for their health, so I am glad that we have been able to do that.

When it comes to the geography of the application of the tiers, of course we have to look at the areas in which people live and travel. Where it is clear that there is a genuine difference that is not represented by administrative boundaries, we will look at it and make a decision on that basis, as we did previously. For instance, with the previous tiers, we even split a borough in two in one example. Nevertheless, we do have to look at where people live and travel to get these decisions right.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

Thousands of jobs have been lost and will be lost in the pub and hospitality sector. At the beginning of the crisis, the Prime Minister said that Government action would follow the science. At a recent meeting, the national health director was clear that there was no science behind the 10 o’clock—soon to be 11 o’clock—curfew and said that it was a policy decision. If there is no science behind this decision, what are the reasons for it?

[Matt Hancock]

We have put in place an enormous amount of support for the hospitality sector and we understand the challenges posed by the measures that were brought in. The reason behind the restrictions on hospitality is that in order to protect people’s ability to go to work and, in particular, to protect education, it is important, sadly, to reduce the social contact on which the virus thrives. It is upsetting and frustrating, but it is true. It is clear from the evidence that later in the evening and late at night, social distancing declines, and we know that when social distancing declines, transmission increases.

[Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con)]

May I ask the Prime Minister, through the medium of my right hon. Friend, what progress has been made to achieve integration between the lockdown measures and testing at the country’s airports? Should we not follow the example of countries that have been successful at boosting business travel, helping the airline industry, helping inward and outward tourism, and getting airport workers back to full-time employment? What encouragement can he give to those at Bristol international airport in my constituency?

[Matt Hancock]

This is a really important issue. It is another example of how the increased testing capacity we have built can help improve lives. I have worked with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport, the airline industry and the airports, including the important regional airports, to try to get a better regime in place. My right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) will not have to wait very long to get an answer.

[Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (SNP) [V]]

The uplift to universal credit was welcome, but people on legacy benefits, the sick and the disabled have also faced additional costs and hardships because of the pandemic, many of which were incurred to follow Government advice on shielding or protecting themselves. How does the right hon. Gentleman justify not applying the same uplift to those people, and can this injustice be rectified going forward?

[Matt Hancock]

Many people in those circumstances are also in receipt of universal credit. We have put in an increase of £1,000 for those in receipt of universal credit, which is a very significant and generous increase, alongside the furlough arrangements. That is a very substantial package of financial support, and the International Monetary Fund has described it as one of the most generous in the world.

[Sir Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale West) (Con)]

May I return to the question asked by my right hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper)? The Secretary of State said that he recognises the damage done by these restrictions. Will he go further and publish the Government’s assessment of what the impact is in both economic and health terms? Will he ensure that on Thursday, when it becomes clear which regions are going into which tiers, the Government publish the exact criteria that will be used to make that judgment?

[Matt Hancock]

Yes, we will publish the statistics that we look at to make the judgments that my hon. Friend refers to. It is not possible to put a specific number on it, though, because there are a number of criteria. We would not want to put an area into lockdown—a higher tier, more accurately—because it triggered numerical criteria if there was a specific reason. For instance, there has been a very significant outbreak at a barracks in the past month, which meant that it looked like that area had a huge spike, but it was entirely—literally—confined to barracks. Therefore, an element of judgment is important in making these decisions, but we will publish the data on which they are taken. My hon. Friend asked about the economic impact assessment, and I will raise that point with my right hon. Friend the Chancellor.

[Mr Speaker]

We are still hoping to reconnect with the Prime Minister at some point, but in the meantime we will continue with Jonathan Edwards.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (Ind)]

Diolch, Mr Speaker. The news of the successful development of three vaccines is to be warmly welcomed because it offers light at the end of the tunnel. However, the Secretary of State will recognise that distribution will be a huge logistical challenge. What guarantee can he give that the Welsh Government will receive any additional resources they require to meet the task at hand?

[Matt Hancock]

The vaccines programme is a UK programme, and of course the costs of the roll-out incur Barnett consequentials and will therefore be available across the whole of the UK. We are working closely with the NHS in Wales to make sure that happens as smoothly as possible, but it will be the most almighty huge logistical effort for everyone involved.

[Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con)]

As my right hon. Friend knows, I do not support lockdowns, tiered or otherwise, but I welcome the move to get these vaccines. That is very good news. As I understand it, the Government’s main weapon is test and trace. May I suggest that test and quick result is equally important? When will the Government be able to tell the House when the whole country can be tested and get a quick result, so that when it is negative we can all get on with our lives?

[Matt Hancock]

I hope that the system for people to test daily if they have been in close contact with somebody who has tested positive, as the Prime Minister has, instead of having to isolate, will be in place in January. As the Prime Minister set out, we are piloting it from this week, and then we will roll it out over December. I hope it will be available nationwide from January.

[Kate Osborne (Jarrow) (Lab)]

I direct my question to the Prime Minister or even the Chancellor, but I ask it to the Secretary of State. With the infection rates still high across the north-east, it is looking likely that the region will come out of this national lockdown in a worse position than it was in going in. When the tier restrictions were last implemented, local leaders had to fight the Government for a fair amount of funding for our region. Can the Secretary of State assure us that this time the north will not be left behind again? In line with their levelling up agenda, will the Government ensure that all businesses and people receive the correct level of the financial support that they desperately need?

[Matt Hancock]

I am glad to see that the number of cases in the north-east is falling. That is good news and testament to people right across the north-east. Yes, there will be financial support to the councils that are in higher-tier areas, alongside the huge amount of financial support to individuals through furlough and the increase in universal credit, and to businesses.

[Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con)]

Physical and mental wellbeing go hand in hand, and both are under attack from this virus. I welcome my right hon. Friend’s comments on outdoor sport, but at this time of year, it is the fitness studios, Pilates studios and dance studios that are crucial to keep people active. What reassurance can he give the House that, even in areas that are in a higher tier, every effort will be made to ensure that people can keep active, recognising the enormous efforts that the industry has made to put in covid-secure measures?

[Matt Hancock]

I can give my right hon. Friend exactly that assurance, not least because gyms will be able to reopen in all tiers, and I recognise the enormous efforts that most gyms have made to ensure that they are covid-secure.

[Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab)]

I talked to Hounslow’s director of public health this morning. She welcomes the opportunity to have rapid lateral flow testing under her local jurisdiction, and we both welcome the fact that the Government have finally recognised that local health and public health professionals are essential to the successful tackling of infections such as covid. However, councils and health trusts cannot roll out rapid testing for vulnerable groups, employ, train and enforce in the way described by the Prime Minister and roll out the vaccination programme without significant additional resources. The Army has been helping with the rapid testing in Liverpool, but will the Government adequately resource local authorities and local health trusts to deliver what is needed?

[Matt Hancock]

The hon. Lady is right to praise local public health officials. Local directors of public health have done an amazing amount of work throughout this crisis, and we work incredibly closely with them right across the country. It is very important that further funding will come forward for those areas in higher restrictions, not least because of the amount of work that we all need to do together.

[Karl MᶜCartney (Lincoln) (Con) [V]]

As the Prime Minister said, 2020 has been a difficult year, and unfortunately, freelancers and directors of limited companies in Lincoln and across the UK have had a particularly hard year, with many of them receiving next to no financial support from the Government yet. While today’s announcements are welcome and we are moving in a positive direction, many will still have to wait several months before small businesses can return to some form of normality. Will my right hon. Friend urge his close friend the Chancellor to provide grant funding for those individuals and businesses? Local authorities can and will step in to provide this funding on a case-by-case basis, and to finance that, we can seek the repayment of taxpayer funding from the supermarkets, which have clearly misused taxpayer support that they do not need. Will he back the Blue Collar Conservative campaign and right this wrong?

[Matt Hancock]

I would be happy to look at that myself and to take it up with my right hon. Friend the Chancellor, who will be at the Dispatch Box on Wednesday.

[Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab) [V]]

The Government have committed to level up the country, and in particular the north of England. Given the risk that covid will level us down, what assurances can the Secretary of State give that in Wednesday’s spending review, the Chancellor will reform the Green Book, replace the local growth fund with the shared prosperity fund and deliver the investment needed to tackle regional inequalities?

[Matt Hancock]

The Treasury has already updated its Green Book, which is a significant step, and I know that the Chancellor has been discussing this further. The levelling-up agenda is even more critical after the pandemic than it was before. It is the agenda on which all Government Members were elected with enormous enthusiasm about a year ago, and we look forward to putting it in place with renewed vigour once this pandemic is over.

[Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)]

I heard the Secretary of State say some welcome things about sport. Given the importance of maintaining fitness to the ability to deal with this illness, can he confirm whether people will be able to go to indoor swimming pools and play golf?

[Matt Hancock]

Yes, golf is back. Outdoor sport will be available under all the tiers, and we will publish all the details for each tier imminently.

[Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD)]

I welcome the plans in place to test students, enabling them to travel home for Christmas, and I commend the work of the University of St Andrews, in my constituency, which has stepped in to facilitate that, but a gap remains in terms of the new year. We need to ensure that where students must return to university they can do so safely, as well as give reassurance to the communities in which they are situated. I understand from the covid winter plan that guidance will follow suit, but will the Secretary of State, on behalf of the Government, advise me as to what engagement is being had with devolved nations about the return and testing of students in January, including discussions on default online teaching?

[Matt Hancock]

Yes, this is a really important subject to get right. The use of testing will make it easier for students safely to go home and then safely to return to university. I have discussed that with my colleagues from across the four nations, not least because so many students go to university in different parts of the UK. I hope we have a good regime in place for the return of students, just as we have a good regime in place for students to be able safely to go home, using the new lateral flow tests that we now have available thanks to the huge investment and the work we did over the summer.

[Kate Griffiths (Burton) (Con) [V]]

So many businesses and jobs in my constituency are based in pubs and the brewing industry, which are not set up to provide food and without further support will struggle to make it through December. May I ask the Prime Minister, through my right hon. Friend, to ensure that any support provided to wet pubs also includes the wider brewing industry, which will also be seeing a significant decrease in trade?

[Matt Hancock]

Yes, of course. Everybody knows that Burton is inescapably linked to high-quality beer; anyone who has been to Burton knows that fact. My heart goes out to the hospitality industry, which has been hit so hard. Of course schemes are available nationally, including the furlough and the support for businesses. There has been more support for the hospitality, leisure and accommodation businesses, and there will be cash grants for businesses that are closed under the new tiering system, to try to support people through what are, inevitably, very difficult times.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

Although I am pleased that the Prime Minister and Secretary of State have listened to representations from me and other colleagues about the importance of reopening gyms, golf and collective worship, I am disappointed that we heard nothing from the Prime Minister about helping small business people and small businesses in my constituency who have received little or no help whatsoever; they have been financially excluded, and the Government should look again at that. Following a freedom of information request, through my local clinical commissioning group, I compared the GP referrals from September this year with those from September 2019 and found that there has been a huge drop in the number of people referred, for example, for cardio, gastric, trauma and orthopaedics. Although we have heard from the Government that they will put extra financial resources into the NHS, how will the Secretary of State provide the extra doctors, nurses and specialists to get the waiting lists down and to meet the surge in referrals?

[Matt Hancock]

I am glad to say that we are hiring large numbers of people into the NHS—over 13,000 more nurses over the last year, for instance. I am grateful to the Chancellor for putting an extra £3 billion into the NHS next year to deal with some of the backlogs that were inevitably caused by the virus. In answer to the first part of the hon. Gentleman’s question, let me say that there will be grants of up to £3,000 per month for businesses forced to close by restrictions in England and also backdated grants of up to £2,100 per month for businesses in tier 2 and tier 3 areas that have suffered from reduced demand—this is on top of the national schemes. I reassure him that we are doing everything we can to support businesses in these difficult times.

[Rob Butler (Aylesbury) (Con)]

Aylesbury was in tier 1 prior to the second lockdown and my constituents accepted the jump to national restrictions on the basis of protecting the national health service. Will my right hon. Friend reassure them that from 3 December any restrictions will be based on truly local needs, backed up with truly local evidence, so that they can see for themselves why the action is needed?

[Matt Hancock]

Yes, that is right. We publish unprecedented amounts of data, on which these judgments have to be made. I commit to my hon. Friend that we will look at the precise data—in Aylesbury, across Buckinghamshire and, of course, nationwide—as we make these difficult judgments.

[Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP) [V]]

We do not often enough thank those public sector workers who have gone the extra mile during covid, particularly those processing furlough payments in Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, those processing universal credit payments in the Department of Work and Pensions, and, as the Secretary of State will be aware, those who work in the national health service, for their heroic efforts. Will he thank those public sector workers for everything they are doing, and will he explain to them why this Government believe they should be subjected to a three-year pay freeze and whether he thinks that is appropriate?

[Matt Hancock]

I pay tribute to all those who have been working on the coronavirus response and, more broadly, all those who have been working together across the public and private sectors to make it happen. There are clear, significant economic consequences to the actions that we have had to take, and we as a country will have to get through those in the same way as we have pulled together to get through this coronavirus crisis so far. We are not there yet, but we are making significant progress.

[Greg Clark (Tunbridge Wells) (Con)]

The scientists, their teams and all the volunteers deserve our thanks for getting the breakthrough with the vaccine, as do the Secretary of State and the Government for funding that research and for acting in anticipation by buying 100 million doses of the vaccine. In that spirit, and given that we have made this commitment, will he over the next couple of days ask the Chancellor to advance some of the money that the Prime Minister referred to—the record-breaking increase in science funding—and put it in the hands of other clinical trials that are funded by charitable funds but whose fundraising income has dropped, so that there is no interruption to life-saving research for cancer and other sources?

[Matt Hancock]

My right hon. Friend tempts me to give an answer ahead of its time. Like him, I look forward to hearing what the Chancellor of the Exchequer will have to say on Wednesday.

[Richard Burgon (Leeds East) (Lab) [V]]

When the Prime Minister announced the end of the first lockdown in late June, the Office for National Statistics weekly survey estimated that about 25,000 people had covid, but after the Government ignored their own scientists’ call for immediate action in September, cases skyrocketed. The latest ONS data estimates that there are now more than 600,000 people with the virus. Cases will soar again if the Government keep repeating the same old errors, including the failed tier system, which is what they are doing, driven by the pressure of their own right-wing Back-Bench MPs, not by public health needs. Today’s measures risk a third wave. Will the Government take responsibility for the thousands of deaths and all the pain of the bereavements that that would cause?

[Matt Hancock]

I suppose the good news that I can break to the hon. Gentleman is that by studying the impact of the different restrictions that we have had to introduce, we have been able to bring in a set within tier 3 that are calibrated to ensure that we can get the rates down. There is also mass testing, which has been so effective in Liverpool, where the rates have come down by over two thirds. That is a remarkable effort by everybody in Liverpool, and I put my tribute to Joe Anderson on the record once more. So we can do this, especially if we all act and pull together.

[Felicity Buchan (Kensington) (Con)]

London is the engine of this country’s economy, and my central London constituency is suffering hard. As of Friday, London had a substantially lower case rate than the English average, coming in at 75 points lower, and my constituency was 125 points lower. Will my right hon. Friend assure me that London will come out at the lowest tier possible, given the health circumstances?

[Matt Hancock]

I can assure my hon. Friend that London will come out at the tier that is necessary and appropriate based on the public health evidence. What matters, as my hon. Friend says, is the case rate and the case rate among the over-60s, as well as the direction of travel in both of those, and then, of course, the percentage of tests testing positive—because if we put more tests in, we do not want to punish an area for having a higher number of positives—and the impact on the NHS. Thankfully, in London, the NHS has performed remarkably in this second peak and has coped with it, despite the pressures, admirably well.

[Mr Speaker]

I am going to suspend the House. We think we are going to get the Prime Minister back, but we just need to check the new line, so I will suspend the House for five minutes while we reconnect. Thanks, everybody.

Public Health

Matt Hancock Excerpts

Wednesday 4th November 2020 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Matt Hancock)]

The measures that we have just debated are indeed extraordinary; they are in response to an extraordinary threat to our nation’s health and prosperity. Taking these measures does not come easily to me or my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, nor should it to the House. Our historical liberties are hard-won and precious, and should not be infringed save in the gravest of times, but these are grave times indeed, and if we do not act now, the NHS will not be able to cope. No Member of this House wants to see the scenes that we have witnessed elsewhere in the world of hospitals overrun, or of doctors forced to choose who to treat and who to turn away.

We must drive this virus down together and take these tough yet time-limited measures, making sacrifices now for the safety of all. It will not be easy—I know that—but in a pandemic there are no easy choices. As my hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury (Edward Timpson) put it, we face an invidious choice. We are called to make fundamental changes to how we live, work and socialise, but it is in pursuit of a common cause. We must and will use this time to drive forward innovations that will help ensure, if at all possible, that this lockdown is the last: the mass testing mentioned by so many, which we began to roll out this week and are driving forward night and day; the vaccine mentioned by my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) and others, which, while not yet assured, we will be ready to roll out as soon as we safely can; and the treatments that this country has pioneered.

There have been some excellent speeches, all made with a heavy heart and with regard to the seriousness of the situation. My right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May) spoke of the need to assess the impact on not only health but the economy. We know that the economic impact of the measures will be significant, but we also know that if the virus continues to rise—to double—the economic impact will be still more serious.

Many Members raised the issue of the impact on mental health. I take that very seriously. Before supporting this decision, I consulted with the Royal College of Psychologists, which has said that stricter measures to control the virus are needed, because the virus itself has a negative impact on people’s mental health.

There is a wider point on mental health services and health services more broadly: the NHS is open. We are determined to ensure that it stays open as much as is possible for non-covid treatments. My hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle (Huw Merriman), for whom I have a huge amount of respect, argued passionately about the impact of the first lockdown on the health services available. I say to him with all sincerity that it is by tackling the rise in the virus that we will keep the NHS open, rather than by allowing the virus to grow. In his constituency, the number of cases has almost doubled in the last two weeks; I looked that up as he was speaking. I urge him and others who support the NHS so strongly to support these measures, in order to allow the NHS to continue to do its job.

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

The Prime Minister very honestly said to me on Monday that one of the lessons from the end of the first lockdown was that we did not insist enough on people isolating when they were contacted by Test and Trace. Going forward, at the end of lockdown 2.0, how will we improve on that?

[Matt Hancock]

We have to constantly improve on that. First, the number of people being contacted and who are isolating has risen sharply. Secondly, while of course there is always a need for more, the proportion has started to rise recently, and the amount of resources and support that we are giving to the Test and Trace service continues to grow. I absolutely support my hon. Friend’s point that we must use this month to ensure that that service is there and ready. Those who have said that it does not have any impact are wrong. It is having a significant impact on bringing the R down from its natural elevated rate of around 2.5 to where it is today, but with the R above 1, the virus continues to grow, and we must bring it down.

A number of colleagues in all parts of the House raised the issue of communal worship, including my right hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) and my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham). I can tell the House that Ministers are talking to faith leaders to do everything we can to reach an accommodation as soon as possible. I understand the impact of this infringement on liberties, which many colleagues mentioned.

We saw support for the measures from across the House. The hon. Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock) talked about how furlough must be fair for all, and we have extended the furlough system. My hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond) talked about the overwhelming weight of scientific evidence. While science of course consists of men and women with different views, I truly believe that the overwhelming weight of scientific evidence is in favour of suppressing the virus. We heard from my hon. Friends the Members for Wealden (Ms Ghani) and for Loughborough (Jane Hunt) about how, with heavy hearts, they are supporting these measures. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright) talked about taking damaging decisions to prevent a disastrous outcome later, and I think that was about right.

The hon. Members for Reading East (Matt Rodda) and for Blackburn (Kate Hollern) expressed their support, even though they also wished that this had come in earlier. My right hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) and my hon. Friends the Members for Bosworth (Dr Evans) and for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) spoke so eloquently of what the promise that the NHS is always there for you means. It is something that binds us together as a country and something that we must protect and cherish. The issue of care homes was raised, including by the hon. Member for Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth). The updated visitor guidance was published this morning. I agree with him about seeking further expansion of testing in care homes, including for visitors.

There was a widespread debate about the need for more data publication. All I can say is that we are constantly expanding the data that is being published. There is more and more data from the NHS on hospitalisations, more and more data on cases and where they are, and more and more contact tracing data. I am absolutely enthusiastic about publishing more and more data. Indeed, we have been commended, as a country, for the open approach that we are taking to the amount of data that is published.

Ultimately, this comes down to a very significant judgment about how we best lead a nation through an incredibly difficult period with a virus that exists only to multiply, and lives and breathes off the essence of what it is to be human. My hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Sir Charles Walker) spoke of a passion for freedom and I, too, am a lover of freedom, but I also care about protection, and it is the combination of the two that we must balance and address.

In ordinary times, these measures would be unimaginable, but these are not ordinary times. The virus in circulation feeds off the human contact that makes life worth living, and we must act to thwart its deadly march to protect our NHS and to save countless lives while supporting every person with everything that we have, and supporting the science that, with increasing confidence each day, I know will help us to find a better way through. I commend these regulations to the House.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Order. Hon. Members, apart from those on the Front Bench, should leave the Chamber by the doors behind me. We must try to keep social distancing going.

Question put.

Digital Economy Bill (Eleventh sitting)

Matt Hancock Excerpts

Committee Debate: 11th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 1st November 2016 Public Bill Committees

[The Minister for Digital and Culture (Matt Hancock)]

I want to respond to a powerful and impassioned speech by the hon. Member for Bristol West and set out why, while agreeing with much of the substance of what she says, we think that many of the issues are covered by existing legislation and why we think that enforcement is the biggest part of the challenge, as she pointed out. There are also some technical deficiencies with the proposed clause. I will deal with all those issues in the context of strongly supporting the thrust of her argument and the desire to protect vulnerable women.

New clause 5 seeks to make it a criminal offence to

“make available on the internet pornographic material on a commercial basis to persons in the United Kingdom if they know or ought to know that the production of the pornographic material involved exploited persons.”

The language is similar to that used in other parts of the Bill, but it covers quite different ground in terms of the substance. I do not want to see people exploited in this way; the question is about what is provided for through existing law and how the new clause would affect that.

The offence is targeted at persons “making available” material that may have involved exploitation, rather than the exploitation itself. We are committed to ensuring that people are not subject to exploitation; this is a technical difference in respect of the way that the law applies. Tackling exploitation is the existing basis of the work of, for example, the National Crime Agency’s child exploitation online protection command and the violence against women and girls strategy as well as the Modern Slavery Act 2015. Making sure that we implement the 2015 Act—recent legislation—and enforce it is a critical part of the work of the Home Office at the moment.

[Thangam Debbonaire]

I am grateful to the Minister for reassuring me that the 2015 Act could cover what I am talking about. My concern relates to whether that is actually happening. Could the Minister expand further on that point?

[Matt Hancock]

Of course. The expansion of enforcement in respect of the 2015 Act is an important part of the work of the Home Office at the moment. The Minister who took that legislation through Parliament is now the Secretary of State at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, so Ministers at that Department have a good understanding of not just the legislation, but the need for enforcement.

Existing legislation, including the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008, clearly makes it an offence to be in possession of “an extreme pornographic image”—which includes images depicting non-consensual sex—and to possess and distribute indecent images of children. In addition, the independent Internet Watch Foundation works to identify and remove child sexual abuse, which we discussed earlier in Committee, as well as criminally obscene content hosted anywhere in the world. We are able to take down criminally obscene content, and the approach has started to work effectively. The organisation works closely with Government, at national and local levels, and policing agencies to support investigations and prosecutions.

There are a couple of technical reasons why the new clause is deficient. First, the scope of the offence is unclear; there is no definition as to what constitutes pornographic material. It is not made clear whether the definition at clause 16 of the Bill is to be used. Similarly, it is not clear what is meant by “make available” on the internet: would that capture internet service providers who host the material or just the individual who actually uploaded it to a specific website?

Secondly, the proposed classification of the offence is summary only and the corresponding maximum penalty of six months’ imprisonment, a level 5 fine or both, is incongruous for an offence dealing with this kind of conduct. Other sentences for offences in this area are much more serious. For example, the proposed maximum is much lower than for other offences relating to coercive conduct, such as trafficking for sexual exploitation, which carries a maximum of life imprisonment, and the possession of extreme pornographic images, which carries a maximum of three years’ imprisonment, an unlimited fine or both.

I am also concerned that the offence as drafted could be difficult to prosecute. In practice, it is difficult to show that a person making material available online actually knew, or should have known, that an individual featured had been exploited. There may be no link, or a very tenuous link, between these individuals and those engaged in the exploitation itself. Lastly, there are also potential territorial difficulties involved in prosecuting this offence. In the absence of any express provision to the contrary, it is presumed that any criminal offence is subject to the jurisdiction only when it is perpetrated in the UK. This is an issue that we have dealt with elsewhere in the Bill.

I applaud the hon. Lady’s intentions and have given assurances about the ongoing work in prosecuting other offences. I invite her to withdraw the motion.

[Thangam Debbonaire]

I thank the Minister for his responses. My understanding is that the implementation of the Modern Slavery Act does not cover this area of work so I will be following that up with the Minister and his colleagues. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 13

Offence to use digital ticket purchasing software to purchase excessive number of tickets

‘(1) A person commits an offence if he or she utilizes digital ticket purchasing software to purchase tickets over and above the number permitted in the condition of sale.

(2) A person commits an offence if he or she knowingly resells or offers to resell a ticket that the person knows, or could reasonably suspect, was obtained using digital ticket purchasing software and was acting in the course of a business.

(3) For the purposes of subsection (2) a person shall be treated as acting in the course of a business if he or she does anything as a result of which he makes a profit or aims to make a profit.

(4) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on summary conviction to—

(a) imprisonment for a period not exceeding 51 weeks,

(b) a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or

(c) both.

(5) In this section—

(a) “digital ticket purchasing software” means any machine, device, computer programme or computer software that, on its own or with human assistance, bypasses security measures or access control systems on a retail ticket purchasing platform that assist in implementing a limit on the number of tickets that can be purchased, to purchase tickets.

(b) “retail ticket purchasing platform” shall mean a retail ticket purchasing website, application, phone system, or other technology platform used to sell tickets.”

(6) Subsections (1) and (2) shall apply in respect of anything done whether in the United Kingdom or elsewhere.’—(Nigel Adams.)

This new clause creates an offence to use digital ticket purchasing software to purchase tickets for an event over and above the number permitted in the condition of sale. It also creates an offence to knowingly resell tickets using such software.

Brought up, and read the First time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Louise Haigh (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab)]

I rise briefly to support the new clause. My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West and I were proud to put our names to it. I commend the hon. Member for Selby and Ainsty for bravely revealing his devotion to Green Day. I stand in solidarity with him—I, too, am a big fan.

This issue has been a problem for too long for fans of musicians of all descriptions. It prices people out of access to their favourite bands and acts and thereby entrenches a class barrier to culture, which cannot be allowed to continue. For as long as there have been ticketed events, there have been people making money out of the fact that demand for live sports or music outstrips supply. As my hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester pointed out, the development of technology has escalated the problem. Punters simply do not stand a chance against digital ticket purchasing software. The new clause would kick away one of the legs that ticket touts rely on.

The current legislation contained in the Consumer Rights Act 2015 is extremely patchy. It can compel ticket resale sites to publish information such as seat number and face value, but it is not enforced sufficiently and tickets are routinely sold at a high mark-up. Unless Parliament gets tough now, resale sites will continue brazenly to flout the law. It is high time that Parliament closed the legal loophole. That is what the industry, musicians and fans are calling for. I take the opportunity to thank my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson), who has been calling for this change for some time. We wholeheartedly support new clause 13.

[Matt Hancock]

I recognise the strength of feeling across the Committee on this matter. I will certainly do the bidding of the hon. Member for City of Chester and pay tribute to the work of my hon. Friend the Member for Selby and Ainsty, who is a long-standing supporter of live music and has made his case. Last week, he introduced me to Josh Franceschi in the House of Commons, who was able to make his plea very directly.

I match my hon. Friend’s Green Day ticketing problem and raise him my Paul Simon ticket problem. I had a similar experience when buying tickets to see Paul Simon next week at the Royal Albert Hall, to which I am looking forward enormously. I had to pay an eye-watering amount for the tickets—much higher than the face value.

[Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con)]

If even the Minister cannot obtain tickets, given the strings he can pull, what hope is there for the ordinary punter?

[Matt Hancock]

I stress that I bought my tickets to see Paul Simon completely off my own bat, as a fan. My wife and I are enormously looking forward to going. I am prepared to pay the very high price because it will be such an amazing concert, but it would be far better if I could pay the face value or something close to it. I went online immediately the tickets were released and a huge number had gone already. Secondary ticketing sites were the only way that I could get the tickets. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Selby and Ainsty, I was bent over my laptop pressing the button trying to get the tickets as quickly as possible. I only say that to explain to the Committee that I feel the pain of all those who end up having to pay far more than face value because of automated bots.

The Committee will know that we asked Professor Michael Waterson to review secondary ticketing. His very good independent report makes a number of points relevant to the new clause. The offences set out in the Computer Misuse Act 1990 have broad application and the Waterson review concludes that unauthorised use of a computerised ticketing system to avoid ticket volume constraints may give rise to breaches of that Act. Such breaches need to be reported, investigated and case law then established.

Having said that, I recognise the very clear sense in the debate that there remains a problem to be solved. I reiterate the words of the Secretary of State, who said last week that

“the advice has always been that the Computer Misuse Act applied. I want to look carefully at that and see how best we can get to a robust position on this matter”.

She proposed to convene a meeting of all interested parties. If we can get it scheduled, we will have that meeting within a month; if not, I commit to holding it before Christmas.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

It is welcome to have a deadline, but would it not be better if that meeting took place before Report, so that the Commons has an opportunity to consider the points made at it?

[Matt Hancock]

We will seek to have it before the Bill reaches Report, but I will commit to having it before Christmas. Consideration of the Bill will still be ongoing after Christmas in the other place. At the same time, we need to work on making sure that, should we make progress in this area, we get the details and technicalities right and consult appropriately.

There are some technical deficiencies in the new clause. I ask my hon. Friend the Member for Selby and Ainsty to withdraw it, with that clear commitment to making progress in this area while there is still an opportunity—should that be the outcome—to amend this Bill.

A series of non-legislative work is also needed to tackle the problem. As my hon. Friend says, this is not a panacea. Today, we are announcing the new national cyber-security policy and that includes support, through the National Cyber Security Centre, for further action. The centre is in touch with ticketing organisations to enable this and I suggest that we also invite them to attend the meeting to see what progress can be made.

With those assurances, I ask my hon. Friend to withdraw the motion and I look forward to working with him and others to see what we can do to tackle this problem.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nigel Adams]

Indeed, there is a sound of silence on this particular review response.

I am delighted that the Minister has committed to following up the Secretary of State’s pledge to hold a meeting before Christmas. With something as technical as this, it is crucial to get all the players round the table: primary, secondary ticketing sites, representatives of both the fans and artists and, dare I say it, the Minister could probably do with me there as well.

[Matt Hancock]

On the response to the Waterson report, it will be published in due course. The question is whether it is best to hold back publication until after the work I have just committed to is done, to incorporate fully the views of the fans, artists, the ticket-selling industry and, potentially, even my hon. Friend.

[Nigel Adams]

It would be a sensible move. Perhaps it is not a bad idea to have this round-table and take soundings from the industry before the Government respond to the review; I do not think that the Waterson review goes quite far enough in tackling bots, although there is plenty of good work in there for the Government to consider.

I am happy to withdraw my new clause at this stage, following the Minister’s clear commitment to solve the problem. I am hopeful that the issue will be resolved at some stage during the passage of the Bill. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nigel Adams]

I rise briefly to speak to the new clause tabled by the hon. Member for Cardiff West. I understand that it seeks to clarify a rule that already exists. As has been mentioned previously, I chair the all-party parliamentary group on music. Earlier in the year, we held a dinner with representatives from the industry and services such as Spotify and Apple Music. The intention of the dinner was better to understand the growing music-streaming market and what measures are needed to help it flourish further for the benefit of creators, fans and those services. I was taken by the agreement across the room about the existence of a value gap between rights holders and some digital services, and the need to ensure fairness in the way music rights are valued and negotiated.

The Government’s response to the EU’s digital platforms consultation, published at the beginning of the year, stated:

“Clarification of terms used in the Directive would, we believe, help to address these concerns.”

I hope the Minister and the Government remain committed to that view and the intention behind the new clause to clarify existing law.

[Matt Hancock]

As we have debated, the Bill sends a clear message about copyright infringement, not least because we are increasing the penalty for online copyright infringement from two to 10 years. Of course, I know about the concern in the music industry and elsewhere that online intermediaries need to do more to share revenues fairly with creators. That is what this new clause seeks to tackle, and I agree with that concern.

The hon. Member for Cardiff West mentioned the interaction of the Bill with EU law. The change proposed by the new clause is already the position in European Court of Justice case law, and we support that position in the UK. That provides some clarification to the existing position.

Let me answer the specific questions. First, we are heavily engaged in the digital single market negotiations and the discussions ongoing in Europe. While we are a member of the EU, we will continue to do that. The issue of the value gap, which the hon. Gentleman mentioned, is important, and the development of ECJ case law in that direction has been helpful.

That brings me to Brexit because, as the e-commerce directive is EU single-market legislation, we will have to consider what the best future system will be as we exit the European Union. We will have to consider how the e-commerce regulations as a whole should work in the future. That will be part of the debate about leaving the European Union. For the time being, ECJ case law supports the intentions in the new clause, and I would be wary about making piecemeal changes to the regime. I acknowledge the need, through the Brexit negotiations and the process of setting domestic law where there is currently European law, to take into account the important considerations that have been raised.

[Kevin Brennan]

The new clause was a probing amendment, and I thank the Minister for his response. It is important to have the Government’s response on the record.

We debate this issue in the context of the UK music industry’s growth: over a four-year period, it has grown by 17%. During that same period, there has been a massive shift from consumers owning music towards the streaming of music. The value of subscription streaming services has jumped from £168 million in 2014 to £251 million in 2015. So there is a model, if you like, in the market, which can produce value for the industry, but it is being undermined by the value gap that is created by the different treatment of these different types of services.

I accept that the Minister has put on the record the Government’s current position and said that there will be a positive engagement with this issue. On that basis, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 16

E-book lending

‘In section 43(2) of the Digital Economy Act 2010, leave out from “limited time” to “and loan.”’

This new clause aims to extend public lending rights to remote offsite e-book lending.—(Kevin Brennan.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Kevin Brennan]

I beg to move that the new clause be read a Second time.

This new clause would enable the consideration of public lending right for remote e-lending from libraries. That would be achieved by amending section 43(2) of the Digital Economy Act 2010, which sets remote loans outside the definition of lending under public lending right.

I do not know whether the Minister, like me, is a bit of a dinosaur and prefers his books to come in physical form—I am currently reading Bruce Springsteen’s autobiography, which I recommend, as well as Ed Balls’s book on politics, which is also very good. However, in this Digital Economy Bill we should acknowledge the increasing role of e-books and their impact on the income of authors. The spirit of the Bill is that we should better reflect how technology has changed our economy, so it is important that we go further in some places to acknowledge where technological change has outpaced legislation in relation to the arts.

Our approach here should be informed by the fact that we have the Digital Economy Act 2010. At the time that it was passed, some opportunities were missed. We should keep that in mind as we discuss this Bill and make sure that we do not allow those opportunities to pass by again as the Bill completes its stages in the House of Commons and afterwards in the other place.

The Digital Economy Act 2010 made some progress but it failed to forecast how our relationship with books would change. In particular, the 2010 Act touched on the subject of e-books, but its wording ignored the main way libraries would end up lending e-books: remotely, over an internet connection. Of course, remote lending is a natural continuation of the function of e-books. One of the main benefits of e-books is that they escape physical constraints such as location and storage.

However, under current legislation, authors receive no payment when a public library loans their book remotely, which is different from any other form of book loan. Last year, 2.3 million remote loans were made, but they were not counted at all towards authors’ payments because the 2010 Act allowed only for on-site loans of e-books, of which there was a negligible number—who will go to a library when they can borrow the book remotely? That is the whole point of e-books. There is no reason in principle why the distinction should exist; that is what the philosophy of this Bill is supposed to be. Nevertheless, as a result, the public lending right—a right for authors established in 1979—has not been honoured, due to the failure of the 2010 Act to keep up with technological change.

I hope that we can take the opportunity today to avoid repeating that mistake. The Society of Authors, the Association of Illustrators, and the Authors’ Licensing and Collecting Society all support the new clause. Public lending right is designed to balance the social need for free public access to books against an author’s right to be remunerated for the use of their work. Indeed, public lending right provides a significant and much-valued part of many authors’ incomes, particularly those authors whose books are sold mainly to libraries and those whose books are no longer in print.

The recent opinion of the Advocate General, relating to a case on rental and lending in respect of copyright works that is currently before the Court of Justice of the European Union, asserted that the lending of electronic books is the modern equivalent of the lending of printed books. I am aware that the Government expressed a desire to reflect this technological change in their March 2013 response to the independent review of e-lending in public libraries in England, but for some reason—perhaps the Minister can tell us why—they have neglected to take the opportunity presented by this Bill to put the matter right.

Furthermore, figures from March this year show that 343 libraries in the UK have been shut down in the past six years, with another 111 closures planned for 2016, which will result in the loss of almost 8,000 jobs. So it is particularly nonsensical not to apply PLR to remote e-book lending, given that it is becoming increasingly hard to visit a physical library. PLR is a legal right and a keystone of a society in which authors receive reward for their considerable cultural contribution. While we can all benefit from technological change and new ways of accessing creative works, it is important that the obligation to remunerate authors fairly is acknowledged and honoured.

Having acknowledged this loophole and the difficulties it causes, it is vital that the Bill addresses the issue, so that right-holders are treated equitably. Will the Minister take action on this issue and accept the new clause—and if not, why?

[Matt Hancock]

I wholeheartedly support the hon. Member for Cardiff West in his analysis of the increasing range of digital services at libraries across the country and the importance of those digital services to the communities they serve. I also agree with what he said about the increasing range of e-books and the importance of e-book lending. I am touched by his care for our delivering on the Conservative party manifesto and can tell him that we will deliver on this one too.

Libraries are increasingly providing remote e-book lending, so readers have the opportunity to borrow physical and audio books. Over the last year, 2 million e-book loans were made, which shows how important this is. We have been carefully looking at options for how to implement the manifesto commitment and appropriately compensate authors for remote e-lending, including by extending the PLR to e-books. In doing so, we have engaged with representatives of authors, libraries, agents, publishers and booksellers as well as the Public Lending Right Office. The collaborative input is very valuable and helps to ensure that we achieve an outcome that will be supported by all.

Like the hon. Member for Cardiff West, I am a mixed book reader. I am reading “Down and Out in London and Paris”—a well-thumbed hard copy. I am reading “King Lear” on an e-book, although I would say it is more studying than reading, because it is quite hard work. I bought a Kindle book at the weekend. I fully appreciate all types of books: hard copy and soft, hardback and soft.

The hon. Gentleman will understand how keen we are to implement our manifesto commitment. However, we want to take the time to get it right. Furthermore, we need to ensure that the measure is compatible with the copyright directive while we remain within the European Union. In doing so, we are also paying close attention to a relevant court case, again in the European Court of Justice, where we expect a ruling later this year that will have a bearing on how any clause to bring this into place would be drafted.

For those reasons, we are taking our time to get this right. With that explanation, I hope the hon. Member will withdraw his new clause.

[Kevin Brennan]

I will, but I do not think that there is any real need for the Minister not to commit carrying the measure out in the Bill. It simply extends what is already available. If someone borrowed an e-book by turning up at a library, the author would receive their public lending right, but if they did so remotely through the same library service, the author would not. Clearly that is an unacceptable injustice and anomaly.

The Minister has said that the Government need to take their time. It was March 2013 when they said in their response to the independent review that they intended to reflect that technology change. Three years and eight months later, we have a Bill in Committee in the House of Commons and still the Government say they need to take their time to get it right. This Bill is the right time to get it right. I hope the Minister will reflect further on the raft of amendments to this defective Bill that will be introduced in the House of Lords if we do not put this right in the House of Commons. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 19

Personal data breaches

‘(1) The Data Protection Act 1998 is amended as follows.

(2) After section 24 insert—

“24A Personal data breaches: notification to the Commissioner

(1) In this section, section 24B and section 24C, “personal data breach” means unauthorised or unlawful processing of personal data or accidental loss or destruction of, or damage to, personal data.

(2) Subject to subsections (3), (4)(c) and (4)(d), if a personal data breach occurs, the data controller in respect of the personal data concerned in that breach shall, without undue delay, notify the breach to the Commissioner.

(3) The notification referred to in subsection (2) is not required to the extent that the personal data concerned in the personal data breach are exempt from the seventh data protection principle.

(4) The Secretary of State may by regulations—

(a) prescribe matters which a notification under subsection (2) must contain;

(b) prescribe the period within which, following detection of a personal data breach, a notification under subsection (2) must be given;

(c) provide that subsection (2) shall not apply to certain data controllers;

(d) provide that subsection (2) shall not apply to personal data breaches of a particular description or descriptions.

24B Personal data breaches: notification to the data subject

‘(1) Subject to subsections (2), (3), (4), (6)(b) and (6)(c), if a personal data breach is likely to adversely affect the personal data or privacy of a data subject, the data controller in respect of the personal data concerned in that breach shall also, without undue delay, notify the breach to the data subject concerned, insofar as it is reasonably practicable to do so.

(2) The notification referred to in subsection (1) is not required to the extent that the personal data concerned in the personal data breach are exempt from the seventh data protection principle.

(3) The notification referred to in subsection (1) is not required to the extent that the personal data concerned in the personal data breach are exempt from section 7(1).

(4) The notification referred to in subsection (1) is not required if the data controller has demonstrated, to the satisfaction of the Commissioner—

(a) that the data controller has implemented appropriate measures which render the data unintelligible to any person who is not authorised to access it, and

(b) that those measures were applied to the data concerned in that personal data breach.

(5) If the data controller has not notified the data subject in compliance with subsection (1), the Commissioner may, having considered the likely adverse effects of the personal data breach, require the data controller to do so.

(6) The Secretary of State may by regulations—

(a) prescribe matters which a notification under subsection (1) must contain;

(b) provide that subsection (1) shall not apply to certain data controllers;

(c) provide that subsection (1) shall not apply to personal data breaches of a particular description or descriptions.

24C Personal data breaches: audit

‘(1) Data controllers shall maintain an inventory of personal data breaches comprising—

(a) the facts surrounding the breach,

(b) the effects of that breach, and

(c) remedial action taken

which shall be sufficient to enable the Commissioner to verify compliance with the provisions of sections 24A and 24B. The inventory shall only include information necessary for this purpose.

(2) The Commissioner may audit the compliance of data controllers with the provisions of sections 24A, 24B and 24C(1).

(3) In section 40 (Enforcement notices)—

(a) in subsection (1)—

(i) after “data protection principles,” insert “or section 24A, 24B or 24C”;

(ii) for “principle or principles” substitute “principle, principles, section or sections”;

(b) in subsection 6(a) after “principles” insert “or the section or sections”.

(4) In section 41 (Cancellation of enforcement notice”)—

(a) in subsection (1) after “principles” insert “or the section or sections”;

(b) in subsection (2) after “principles” insert “or the section or sections”.

(5) In section 41A (Assessment notices)—

(a) in subsection (1) after “data protection principles” insert “or section 24A, 24B or 24C”;

(b) in subsection (10)(b) after “data protection principles” insert “or section 24A, 24B or 24C”.

(6) In section 41C (Code of practice about assessment notices)—

(a) in subsection (4)(a) after “principles” insert “and sections 24A, 24B and 24C”;

(b) in subsection (4)(b) after “principles” insert “or sections”.

(7) In section 43 (Information notices)—

(a) in subsection 43(1)—

(i) after “data protection principles” insert “or section 24A, 24B or 24C”;

(ii) after “the principles” insert “or those sections”;

(b) in subsection 43(2)(b) after “principles” insert “or section 24A, 24B or 24C”.

(8) In section 55A (Power of Commissioner to impose monetary penalty)—

(a) after subsection (1) insert—

“(1A) The Commissioner may also serve a data controller with a monetary penalty notice if the Commissioner is satisfied that there has been a serious contravention of section 24A, 24B or 24C by the data controller.”;

(b) in subsection (3A) after “subsection (1)” insert “or (1A)”;

(c) in subsection (4) omit “determined by the Commissioner and”;

(d) in subsection (5)—

(i) after “The amount” insert “specified in a monetary penalty notice served under subsection (1) shall be”;

(ii) after “Commissioner” insert “and”;

(e) after subsection (5) insert—

“(5A) The amount specified in a monetary penalty notice served under subsection (1A) shall be £1,000.

(5B) The Secretary of State may by regulations amend subsection (5A) to change the amount specified therein.”

(9) In section 55B (Monetary penalty notices: procedural rights)—

(a) in subsection (3)(a) omit “and”;

(b) after subsection (3)(a) insert—

(aa) specify the provision of this Act of which the Commissioner is satisfied there has been a serious contravention, and”;

(c) after subsection (3) insert—

“(3A) A data controller may discharge liability for a monetary penalty in respect of a contravention of section 24A, 24B or 24C if he pays to the Commissioner the amount of £800 before the time within which the data controller may make representations to the Commissioner has expired.

(3B) A notice of intent served in respect of a contravention of section 24A, 24B or 24C must include a statement informing the data controller of the opportunity to discharge liability for the monetary penalty.

(3C) The Secretary of State may by regulations amend subsection (3A) to change the amount specified therein, save that the amount specified in subsection (3A) must be less than the amount specified in section 55A(5A).”;

(d) in subsection (5) after “served” insert “under section 55A(1)”;

(e) after subsection (5) insert—

“(5A) A person on whom a monetary penalty notice is served under section 55A(1A) may appeal to the Tribunal against the issue of the monetary penalty notice.”

(10) In section 55C(2)(b) (Guidance about monetary penalty notices) at the end insert “specified in a monetary penalty notice served under section 55A(1)”.

(12) In section 67 (Orders, regulations and rules)—

(a) in subsection (4)—

(i) after “order” insert “or regulations”;

(ii) after “section 22(1),” insert “section 24A(4)(c) or (d), 24B(6)(b) or(c),”;

(b) in subsection (5)—

(i) after subsection (c) insert “(ca) regulations under section 24A(4)(a) or (b) or section 24B(6)(a),”;

(ii) for “(ca) regulations under section 55A(5) or (7) or 55B(3)(b),” substitute “(cb) regulations under section 55A(5), (5B) or (7) or 55B(3)(b) or (3C),”.

(13) In section 71 (Index of defined expressions) after “personal data |section 1(1)” insert “personal data breach |section 24A(1)”.

(14) In paragraph 1 of Schedule 9—

(a) after paragraph 1(1)(a) insert—

“(aa) that a data controller has contravened or is contravening any provision of section 24A, 24B or 24C, or”;

(b) in paragraph 1(1B) after “principles” insert “or section 24A, 24B or 24C”;

(c) in paragraph (3)(d)(ii) after “principles” insert “or section 24A, 24B or 24C”;

(d) in paragraph (3)(f) after “principles” insert “or section 24A, 24B or 24C.””

This new clause seeks to create a general obligation on data controllers to notify the Information Commissioner and data subjects in the event of a breach of personal data security. The proposed obligation is similar to that imposed on electronic communication service providers by the Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations 2003.—(Louise Haigh.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Louise Haigh]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

New clause 19 would provide a general obligation on companies to report personal data breaches. This crucial amendment gets to the heart of the regulatory system around cyber-security. Cyber-security is one of the greatest challenges we face as a country. Despite the Government’s multi-million pound strategy and their further welcome announcement today, we do not believe they have faced up to the challenge yet. Some 90% of large UK firms were attacked in 2014. That is an astonishing figure, and yet only 28% of those businesses reported their cyber-attack to the police. As the Minister knows, national crime statistics rose for the first time in 20 years last year, because scams and cybercrime are now included.

Throughout discussion of the Bill, we have made it clear that we feel it does nothing to address the real challenges facing the digital economy. The Bill should have equipped the sector for the digital future—a future as replete with challenges as with opportunities. None of those challenges could be greater than cyber-security. That security says to consumers and individuals that, in this coming century, when data will be the lifeblood and the exchange of personal data the currency, nothing is more critical to ensure that that runs smoothly than their trust.

This multi-billion-pound sector, which now amounts to 11% of our GDP, is utterly reliant on the mutual trust fostered between consumers and producers, which is why the new clause is so critical. It would establish for the first time a duty on all companies to report any breach of cyber-security. The legislation as it stands is simply inadequate. The Data Protection Acts deal extensively with the protection of personal data, but there is no legal obligation on companies to report data breaches. The privacy and electronic communications regulations include an obligation to report data breaches, but that only applies to telecommunications companies and internet service providers and, at that stage, only requires companies to consider information customers.

Clearly, however, it is not only communications providers that hold sensitive data about people that carry the potential to be commodified. Insurance companies have had their data stolen, to be sold to claims management companies; banks are hacked, as J.P. Morgan was in 2014; and TK Maxx suffered the largest retail hack to date with the loss of credit and debit card information. Yet none of those examples had a duty to report to their customers to ensure that further harm was not done with their information.

The net impact of the lack in existing legislation is that the vast majority of attacks go unreported, and people are left in the dark when their personal data have been hacked, leaked, stolen or sold. If we are to talk meaningfully about data ownership, we cannot allow that to continue. We welcome yesterday’s announcement that the Government will be implementing the general data protection regulation. As the Minister knows, the GDPR provides for a general obligation on all companies to report breaches to regulators and customers. Will he make it clear how he expects to fulfil that obligation and whether he is willing to accept the new clause?

Fundamentally, we are keen that the UK’s digital economy is not seen as a soft touch on cybercrime. That is why the new clause would impose a general obligation on data controllers to notify the Information Commissioner and data subjects in the event of breaches of personal data security. We believe that that would be a major step forward, and we look forward to the Minister’s comments.

[Matt Hancock]

I hope that we can deal with this new clause fairly quickly. I strongly support the hon. Lady’s assertion that cyber-security is vital, and I appreciate her welcome for the national cyber-security strategy that the Chancellor of the Exchequer set out today. People say that there are two types of company: those that have had a cyber-attack and know about it; and those that have had one and do not know about it. It is vital that cyber-security is a priority for all companies that use the internet.

As the hon. Lady said, we have announced that the general data protection regulation will apply in the UK from May 2018. That new regime will introduce tough measures on breach notification, making it a requirement for all data controllers and processors to report data breaches to the Information Commissioner if they are likely to result in a risk to the rights and freedoms of individuals. Breaches must also be notified to the individuals affected where there is a high risk to their rights and freedoms. Under the GDPR, the sanctions available will be worth up to 4% of total global annual turnover, or €20 million, so it will be strongly in the interests of organisations to comply with the requirements.

I suggest that the bringing into UK law of the GDPR is the appropriate place to make the change that the hon. Lady suggests in her new clause. I therefore ask her to withdraw the motion.

[Louise Haigh]

If the Government intend to implement regulations in May 2018, I am not convinced why they cannot amend this legislation now.

[Matt Hancock]

The implementation of GDPR is a much bigger piece of work than simply this change. It is better to bring the whole thing in properly and in good order, rather than piecemeal.

[Louise Haigh]

It is highly unsatisfactory that, for the next 18 months, companies receiving cyber-attacks will still not be reporting them to customers that have had their data stolen, hacked or lost, but it is welcome that the Government will be implementing the general data protection regulation. The Opposition will continue to scrutinise the implementation of their cyber-security strategy, so, with the Minister’s assurances, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Louise Haigh]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second Time.

The new clause is a very simple amendment, one that I hope the Committee will agree is long overdue. The Communications Act 2003 ensured that access services—subtitles, audio description or sign language—are available on TV that is watched at a prescribed time and channel.

The way in which we watch and consume television has changed considerably since 2003; it is worth remembering that once the Communications Act 2003 reached Royal Assent, it would be a full five years before BBC iPlayer launched online. Similar on-demand services launched in the same year. Although subtitling is at or near 100% across the public service broadcasters, 76% of the UK’s 90 on-demand providers still offer no subtitles at all—despite the fact that, according to Ofcom’s figures, some 18% of the UK population use them.

The principles behind the Communications Act 2003 recognise that those with sensory loss should not be denied access to the information and services that many of us take for granted. Obviously, that principle still applies, yet, because of changes to technology, those with sensory loss cannot keep up.

In July 2013, the then Minister for the Digital Economy acknowledged this paradox, saying:

“If it is clear that progress isn’t being made in three years’ time…we will consider legislation.”

We say that time is up. That is why the Opposition have helpfully brought forward a new clause to remind the Government of their commitment. The clause would merely update the existing regulatory regime that has worked so well for linear TV and apply it to on-demand.

There is no reason to believe that a burden will be imposed. The current code has a sliding scale for access services provision so that new and smaller broadcasters are either exempt or have gradually increasing targets. No linear broadcasters are ever required to spend more than 1% of their relevant turnover on access services. The new clause would be subject to public consultation. It is eminently reasonable and long overdue. It is clearly time the Government acted to reflect the digital world in which we live and allowed those with sensory loss to play a full and active part in it.

[Matt Hancock]

The creation of a digitally inclusive society is a crucial commitment for this Government. If somebody is not able to enjoy and exploit the benefits and convenience afforded to able bodied people, it is for us to better understand why and to work with interested parties to identify and implement a remedy.

The current statutory targets for subtitling, signing and audio description—collectively known by domestic TV channels as “access services”—cover 83 channels, over 90% of the audience share for broadcast TV. Over the years, the provision of access services has increased. Most notably, the number of service providers reporting subtitles grew from seven channels in 2013 to 22 in 2015. However, there is still clearly room for improvement.

We have become a society that wants to watch TV at a time and place convenient for us. As with much of the Bill, changes in technology outgrow the underpinning regulatory framework. It is not unreasonable to expect that content should have subtitles when it is made available at a time and place that are convenient for the viewer—even more so if access services were present at the scheduled broadcast time.

Ofcom currently possesses the power to encourage the 116 on-demand services providers in the UK to provide these services, but it does not have the power to require them. We have been considering what can be done—as the hon. Lady might imagine, given the previous commitment. We have been engaged in discussion with Ofcom to determine how we can address the shortcoming so that an increase in the provision of access services for video on demand can be achieved. We will continue that engagement with Ofcom. It made its position clear in evidence to the Committee, having previously argued that the law as it stood was what was needed.

I urge the hon. Lady to withdraw the new clause. It would require a code of practice that would be too prescriptive and would get into the micromanagement that we talked about earlier in our consideration of the Bill. Also, I would want the clause to specify that it is for Ofcom, not the Secretary of State, to make such a code.

[Louise Haigh]

I would be grateful if the Minister gave us a firm timeframe for this work with Ofcom; this is yet another area that could easily have been addressed in the Bill. He is saying, “Work is ongoing. We might come back to it later.” There are so many areas of the Bill that could have been addressed by ongoing work. It all shows yet again that the Bill should have been delayed and brought forward when it was fit for Committee and ready to tackle all the issues.

[Matt Hancock]

The hon. Lady is clearly wrong about that, for two reasons. First, I do not want to delay the other measures in the Bill; she seems to want to delay a whole series of things that will improve mobile roll-out and broadband roll-out and will put age verification in place, and I think that would be a mistake.

Secondly, in the Committee’s consideration of the Bill, we have had opportunities for further debate that have not been taken up. That shows that there has been full and proper scrutiny of the whole Bill. In this case, after the publication of the Bill, Ofcom said that it thought there was a need for the change in the law. We should take that seriously, consult Ofcom and consider exactly what needs to happen.

[Louise Haigh]

I repeat that in July 2013, the Minister’s predecessor said:

“If it is clear that progress isn’t being made in three years’ time…we will consider legislation.”

The Government have had more than three years to do this. It is not that Ofcom came forward after the Bill was published. The Bill presented a perfect opportunity, so will he commit to the exact timeframe for giving Ofcom the powers?

[Matt Hancock]

Ofcom previously said that it had all the necessary powers, but its position has changed. When the regulator changes position, it is reasonable to take that into account and to consult on ensuring that we can get the powers into place.

I make no bones about it: the support for access services for video on demand has not been in place before. We made big strides in the previous Parliament. We are committed to doing more to ensure that the support is more widely available. Instead of the tone of delay that is coming from those on the Opposition Benches, we should have a tone of support. That is what I propose, so I ask the hon. Lady to withdraw the new clause.

[Louise Haigh]

It is completely outrageous to suggest that we are the ones arguing for delay.

--- Later in debate ---

[Louise Haigh]

The digital economy is the fastest growing area of the UK economy. We are very proud that, as a proportion of GDP, it is the largest in the G20. It employs more than 1.3 million workers, of whom a significant proportion—many more will not be categorised in that figure—are employed in the so-called gig economy. As we heard following the Uber ruling on Friday, many of those people do not enjoy very basic workers’ rights. The London employment tribunal found that Uber was a transportation business and that the drivers who work through the app do work for Uber. The judgment against Uber was hailed as a landmark by the union that brought the claim, GMB, and rightly so. I am a proud member of that union.

Friday’s landmark ruling should have ripple effects across the entire digital economy. At its best, the disruptive force of technology is reframing our relationship with each other and the world around us, whether that is farmers using millimetre-accurate GPS to guide their crops or technical experts in safety-critical industries using live data to monitor the manufacturing process. While the digital economy is heralding an unprecedented opportunity for many, the reality can be very different for the more than a million workers employed within the industry. Too often they will find themselves overworked, underpaid and exploited by bosses they never meet, and who do not even fulfil their basic duties as an employer.

Uber is the totemic example. Their “workers”—who pay Uber commission for every taxi ride completed—are not guaranteed breaks, holiday pay or even the minimum wage. Astonishingly, Uber did everything they could to argue to the tribunal that these people were not employees or workers. The judgement states that

“Any organisation (a) running an enterprise at the heart of which is the function of carrying people in motor cars from where they are to where they want to be and (b) operating in part through a company discharging the regulated responsibilities of a PHV [private hire vehicle] operator, but ( c) requiring drivers and passengers to agree, as a matter of contract, that it does not provide transportation services…and (d) resorting in its documentation to fictions, twisted language and even brand new terminology, merits, we think, a degree of scepticism.”

We could not agree more, and it is a bitter irony that a force that is making this era one of the most inter-connected in history has left many workers more isolated than ever before. The Government—who have promised to look out for those that are “just managing”—seem to have been blindsided by the challenges faced by the most enterprising of workers in our economy. There are few workers who would better match that description of “just managing” than the taxi drivers who work upwards of 60, 70 and 80 hours per week and still struggle to pay their bills.

The new clause goes further than the Uber ruling; it would require drivers and other workers to be treated as employees of digital intermediaries. In so doing, their rights to sick pay and holiday pay would be protected as well as the right to paid breaks and the right to the bare minimum wage. When companies such as Uber inevitably try to wriggle out of their responsibilities by appealing against this recent decision, they will have nowhere to go.

We hope that the Government will step into the breach and move to enshrine the rights of workers employed in this emerging sector in law. This decision applies solely to Uber, but the principle should surely hold across the economy. It could affect many tens of thousands of people. So far, the Government’s only announcement has been a two-sentence press release issued on a Friday afternoon referring to a review that has no end in sight. If that is all that the Government can muster, it is hard to believe that they have grasped the scale of the challenge. This will be creating considerable insecurity for both the businesses operating in the digital economy and the workers involved.

I hope that the Minister is acutely aware of both the urgency and the importance of new clause 21 and why it was wholly inadequate for there to be no mention of workers and their protections in the Digital Economy Bill. Hopefully, the Minister will go away and consider measures that will fill the legal vacuum now created, and provide reassurance to the burgeoning digital workforce who, by virtue of a technological sleight of hand, are denied the rights that many of us take for granted. That is clearly an injustice of the first order.

[Matt Hancock]

The hon. Lady asks for us to act, and then sets out the way in which we are acting. That demonstrates that this important area is being considered by the Government.

Technology is indeed changing employment patterns, and the system must keep up with it. Clearly, employers must take their employment law responsibilities seriously and they cannot simply opt out of them. This means making sure that workers are paid properly and enjoy the employment rights to which they are entitled. As a very strong supporter of the living wage and the national living wage, which we introduced, I am a great proponent of ensuring that the labour market operates fairly. Part of that fairness is making sure that it is also flexible. That needs to be considered too, alongside the rights.

--- Later in debate ---

[Christian Matheson]

Will the Minister tell us which trade unions are actively involved in the review?

[Matt Hancock]

I have no doubt that Matthew Taylor will get in contact with lots of trade unions. It is a good idea to take a cross-party approach. The review will last for about six months and among other things it will consider security, pay and rights, skills and progression, and specifically the appropriate balance of rights and responsibilities of new business models and whether the definitions of employment status need to be updated to reflect new forms of working such as on-demand platforms. It will tackle some of those issues. With that explanation, I hope that the hon. Lady will see that we are taking a sensible, reasonable approach and will withdraw her new clause.

[Louise Haigh]

The Opposition have been nothing but reasonable in Committee. The Minister refers to righteous anger; for those taxi workers in London, Sheffield and across the country who are working and not guaranteed paid breaks or the minimum wage, it is not righteous anger but justifiable anger on their behalf. We are arguing not against all flexibility but for those basic rights to be enshrined in law. They should never be compromised for anyone’s convenience.

We are pleased finally to see a timeframe and have a commitment that the review will report back in six months. We will keep a close eye on the review and hope that it will take note of today’s debate. With that, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 31

Review of information disclosure and data ownership

‘(1) The Secretary of State must commission an independent review of information disclosure and data ownership under Chapter 1 of Part 5 of this Act.

(2) In conducting the review, the designated independent reviewer must consult—

(a) specialists in data sharing,

(b) people and organisations who campaign for the rights of citizens to privacy and control regarding their personal information, and

(c) any other persons and organisations the review considers appropriate.

(3) The Secretary of State must lay a report of the review before each House of Parliament within six months of this Act coming into force.

(4) The Secretary of State may not make an order under section 82(4) bringing the provisions of Chapter 1 of Part 5 of this Act into force until each House of Parliament has passed a resolution approving the findings of the review mentioned in subsection (3).’.—(Louise Haigh.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Hancock]

We have made it clear that the UK needs a competitive and effective market in telecoms, and I have made it clear that fibre is the future. Fibre means fibre. The amendment seeks to ensure Ofcom has the power to impose structural separation on BT Openreach if Ofcom considers it necessary. There is already a process available to Ofcom to pursue structural separation should it be considered necessary. The Committee knows that Ofcom is currently considering how Openreach should be structured. We have made it clear that Ofcom should take whatever action it considers necessary and that structural separation remains an option.

Of course, in a rapidly moving sector such as communications, circumstances can change. We regularly review whether Ofcom has the right powers. We will need to do that in the context of our exit from the European Union, but at present Ofcom has the appropriate powers that it needs and it will continue to have them. With that explanation, I hope the hon. Gentleman will withdraw the amendment.

[Calum Kerr]

I thank the Minister for his comments, but the position in relation to having the powers is a weak answer. If there were a separation, we would enter into uncertainty without explicit powers. I will not press the motion to a vote, but I encourage the Government, as the picture on the EU evolves, to be clearer, and if they think it necessary to introduce something specific, so that we have a measure available.

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Clause 36

Bill caps for all mobile phone contracts

‘(1) A telecommunications service provider supplying a contract relating to a hand-held mobile telephone must, at the time of entering into such a contract, allow the end-user the opportunity to place a financial cap on the monthly bill under that contract.

(2) A telecommunications service provider under subsection (1) must not begin to supply a contracted service to an end-user unless the end-user has either—

(a) requested the monthly cap be put in place and agreed the amount of that cap, or

(b) decided, on a durable medium, not to put a monthly cap in place.

(3) The end-user should bear no cost for the supply of any service above the cap if the provider has—

(a) failed to impose a cap agreed under subsection (2)(a),

(b) introduce, or amend, a cap following the end-user’s instructions under subsection (2)(b), or

(c) removed the cap without the end-user’s instructions or has removed it without obtaining the consumer’s express consent on a durable medium under subsection (2).’—(Louise Haigh.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

[Louise Haigh]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

This new clause would mean that mobile phone service providers must give all consumers the opportunity to put a financial cap on their monthly mobile phone bill and that a mobile phone service cannot be provided until the service provider has put in place a cap of the agreed amount, if the consumer has made an express request. The new clause would be welcomed by many who have found that, when they receive an email or check their bank balance at the end of the month, their monthly mobile phone bill has come in much higher than expected.

The reason for the new clause is clear: mobile phone tariffs are complex, particularly on data. Few of us understand how much data we need for an average month, and consumers of all kinds can find that they use much more data than expected. Citizens Advice has provided me with an example that reveals the problem. One man changed his shift patterns and started using his phone to watch films during the night. His network sent a text message to tell him that he had gone over his monthly allowance, but he did not think too much about it until he received a bill for more than £2,000 at the end of the month. His service was subsequently cut off. Research suggests that as many as one in five consumers finds it difficult to keep track of how much they spend on data. The average unexpectedly high bill is usually double the cost of the original monthly fee.

Citizens Advice has received more than 60,000 inquiries about telephone and broadband debt, with its in-depth specialists dealing with nearly 27,000 individual mobile phone debt cases. Mobile phones have become a staple of our everyday life, and a voluntary cap would help consumers, particularly those who can ill afford an occasional doubling of their bill. Consumers support the measure, with more than 77% welcoming the idea.

This is not the first time that the proposal has been considered. In 2012, Ofcom considered introducing regulations but could not overcome the objections of providers, who argued that it would be too costly. Since then, two mobile phone providers have led the way and proved that it can be done. With the Bill’s new provisions on Ofcom appeals, I hope the Government will now consider our new clause.

[Matt Hancock]

The new clause seeks to place a mandatory obligation on mobile phone service providers to agree a financial cap on monthly bills with the customer at the time of entering into the contract, or to secure an agreement from the customer that they do not wish to have a financial cap. Consumers can avoid bill shocks in a number of different ways, so this additional measure is not necessary.

Before purchasing a mobile contract, consumers can already calculate their normal usage based on their last couple of bills. Once a consumer has established their monthly usage, Ofcom-accredited comparison websites are available to them. In fact, the Bill makes further progress on switching. Mobile phone providers are also taking steps to protect their customers from bill shock. As the hon. Lady says, many providers alert customers when they are close to reaching usage allowance limits and offer apps that enable consumers to monitor that usage.

[Drew Hendry]

I hear what the Minister is saying, and he is right that mobile phone operators have put measures in place, but none of them actually caps the amount paid so that people can avoid the situation where, for example, a child runs up exorbitant bills by overriding those limits.

[Matt Hancock]

I do not think that is true. There are examples of contracts that have caps or prepayment. Such contracts exist and they would not be complemented by the new clause, which is about ensuring that information and agreement are available at the start of a contract. The new clause proposes that such an agreement is available or that the person explicitly chooses not to have a cap, which in substance is the same position as now—it would just change what is in the vast quantities of small print at the bottom of these contracts.

[Louise Haigh]

The provisions in the new clause will not be a negative process, as the Minister has just outlined; they will require people to request a cap, rather than to agree that a cap is not put in place. Does the Minister honestly believe that enough information is provided when customers negotiate a contract with a telecoms provider about how much data are going to cost and how much additional data—over the agreed limit—will cost? Does the law currently guard against the example I provided of the gentleman who was watching films, completely oblivious to the fact that he was running up a bill of hundreds of pounds?

[Matt Hancock]

I think that that information has to be provided. Further, it is Ofcom’s job to ensure that that sort of information is provided in a reasonable way, and it has the capability to do that.

Can we guard against anybody using a mobile phone in a way completely different to their own intention at the point of signing the contract, having not taken into account the impact of that behaviour on the price? It is very hard to do that. I also do not see how the new clause would do that. It would simply change the way that a contract is written in the first place, giving the same options of either a capped or non-capped contract. It still provides for the two, so I do not think it would make a substantive difference.

That is not to deny that there is not always a challenge here to make sure that people get the best possible information, and crucially that switching is available and, as is provided for, that if somebody enters into a contract and wants to change that contract shortly after entering into it, they have the ability to do so. One provider now gives new customers the ability to put on a block on outgoing calls after they have reached their allowance, which they can turn on and off via their account, for example. There are dynamic ways of dealing with this within contracts, and I think that is probably the best way to do it, rather than with primary legislation.

Having said all of that, I of course recognise that this is an important and challenging area, but I hope that with that explanation the hon. Members will withdraw the new clause.

[Louise Haigh]

The Minister has not given us a good enough reason for why consumers should not have the ability to put a financial cap on their monthly bills. He has laid out some voluntary mechanisms that various communications providers have implemented, which is all well and good for their customers, but I am sure he will accept that that is a very haphazard way to deal with this issue.

[Matt Hancock]

The proposal in the new clause is itself a voluntary proposal, because it provides for the agreement from a customer should they not wish to see a financial cap. In substance, that is exactly what the new clause provides for.

[Louise Haigh]

It is voluntary for the consumer but not for the telecoms provider. The Minister, in his typical, patronising way, is trying to put this differently from how the Opposition is putting it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Hancock]

It is highly appropriate to end this sitting with the new clause because the intent behind it has cross-party support from both parts of the Opposition represented here. Government Members not only recognise, but are enthusiastic and passionate about getting better wi-fi on trains. My hon. Friend the Member for Devizes, as a Transport Minister and more specifically a Rail Minister, was instrumental in getting Britain to where we are with wi-fi on trains. It is something all MPs understand as we travel around the country. Our frustration is shared by the great British travelling public and the demands for better and faster free wi-fi on trains will continue until they are sated.

Requiring free wi-fi on trains has been undertaken through new franchises and implemented also in existing franchises. The obligation to provide free wi-fi is now secured in 10 of the 15 franchises and we forecast that more than 90% of passenger journeys will have access to wi-fi by the end of 2018 and almost 100% by 2020. There have been further programmes, such as the superconnected cities programme. The hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley says she wants to press us to achieve all we can, and we accept the challenge.

For all new franchises, the current specifications will require a minimum of 1 megabit per second per passenger, which allows for web browsing, basic email and social media activity. Crucially, this is set to increase by 25% every year with a focus on ensuring that it is reliable and consistent because dropped calls or frequent breaks in ability to access wi-fi are seriously frustrating.

There are even stronger bids in some competitions. For example, the East Anglia franchise, which I use a lot, will provide up to 100 megabits per second to the train by 2019, then 500 megabits per second by 2021 and 1 gigabit per second by the end of 2021 on key intercity routes, not least the Norwich in 90 and Ipswich in 60 plans. That is totally brilliant and I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes for making it happen.

Wi-fi was previously dependent on mobile coverage that trains went through, but train operators have started to innovate and have done deals with mobile operators to make sure they have enough 4G coverage down the track. Chiltern is an example. It agreed a deal with EE to provide 100% coverage from London to Birmingham. This is happening. Specifying a particular technology in legislation is likely to provide more problems than solutions. Our changes in driving wi-fi through contracts with operators is more likely to be successful in getting more connectivity faster. That is the approach I propose.

In a moment, I will ask the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley to withdraw the motion, but first I want to pay tribute to all the people who have helped to make this Committee happen, including the Opposition. We have had cheerful and sometimes forthright debates, but in the best spirit of improving the digital economy for all the citizens we serve. I pay tribute particularly to the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley who, in her first performance in her new position, has shown the rest of us how to do it. She has been charming and brilliant. I can only say, thank goodness for Jeremy Corbyn.

I thank you, Mr Stringer, and Mr Streeter for chairing the Committee so effectively and efficiently, and for ensuring that I made fewer mistakes than I otherwise would. I thank the Clerk and the staff of the Public Bill Office, who have helped enormously to keep us on the straight and narrow. I thank the Doorkeepers for holding the doors open long enough for my Whip to ensure that we had all our people here when necessary. I thank the Hansard reporters for no doubt capturing us accurately, in sometimes quite complicated language. I thank the police, my officials in DCMS—in particular the Bill team—and also those from across Government, because the Bill has measures in it from many different Departments. There has been great cross-Government collaboration and I put on record my thanks to my policy officials, the Bill team and my private office team. I thank all those who have given oral or written evidence to the Committee, which has improved our ability to scrutinise the Bill. With that, I hope that the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley will withdraw this final new clause and we can report to the House a well-scrutinised Bill.

[Louise Haigh]

It is very welcome to hear that all new franchise agreements—the Minister is nodding—will contain a requirement for wi-fi. I am happy to withdraw the motion.

Before I do, I add my thanks to you, Mr Stringer, and to Mr Streeter. You have both kept us in order and guided us through, particularly me in my first time on the Front Bench in a Bill Committee. I was put in this job two days before the Committee proceedings began, when I had not yet read the Bill. To say that this was being thrown in at the deep end is something of an understatement. I add particular thanks to the Clerk, who has been incredibly helpful in getting our last-minute amendments together, to the Hansard writers, to the police and Doorkeepers, and of course to all the civil servants who have been in and out of here through a revolving door as we have cantered through the various clauses. I also thank all my hon. Friends who have contributed, SNP Committee members and Government Committee members. I thank both Whips who have kept us to time—we are going to get there eventually.

It has been unsettling to agree with the Minister on so many things but I have been very relieved to find that he still manages to infuriate me. I believe we have stress-tested the Bill pretty roundly. We have found it wanting in several areas and I am confident that it will receive amendments in the other place. I am disappointed to see it emerge relatively unscathed from Committee, but I am confident that it will return from the other place in better shape. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

New Schedule 1

Electronic communications code: consequential amendments

“Part 1

General provision

Interpretation

1 In this Part—

“the commencement date” means the day on which Schedule 3A to the Communications Act 2003 comes into force;

“enactment” includes—

(a) an enactment comprised in subordinate legislation within the meaning of the Interpretation Act 1978,

(b) an enactment comprised in, or in an instrument made under, a Measure or Act of the National Assembly for Wales,

(c) an enactment comprised in, or in an instrument made under, an Act of the Scottish Parliament, and

(d) an enactment comprised in, or in an instrument made under, Northern Ireland legislation;

“the existing code” means Schedule 2 to the Telecommunications Act 1984;

“the new code” means Schedule 3A to the Communications Act 2003.

References to the code or provisions of the code

2 (1) In any enactment passed or made before the commencement date, unless the context requires otherwise—

(a) a reference to the existing code is to be read as a reference to the new code;

(b) a reference to a provision of the existing code listed in column 1 of the table is to be read as a reference to the provision of the new code in the corresponding entry in column 2.

(2) This paragraph does not affect the amendments made by Part 2 of this Schedule or the power to make amendments by regulations under section 6.

(3) This paragraph does not affect section 17(2) of the Interpretation Act 1978 (effect of repeal and re-enactment) in relation to any reference to a provision of the existing code not listed in the table.

Table

Digital Economy Bill (Tenth sitting)

Matt Hancock Excerpts

Committee Debate: 10th sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 27th October 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Louise Haigh]

I welcome the other Minister back to his place, and I look forward to the lengthy correspondence that the Cabinet Office Minister and I will be having. The Minister for Digital and Culture and I also had lengthy correspondence when he was at the Cabinet Office, and I look forward to that continuing.

Will the Minister lay out what the clause seeks to achieve? What reports would Ofcom publish under this power that it currently cannot? Would this extend to requesting and publishing information that was referenced in an earlier debate—right at the beginning on part 1—potentially in relation to existing broadband and communications infrastructure and to where Openreach and other providers are rolling out broadband in order to ensure a more effective market? The Opposition welcome all attempts by regulators and Government to make as much data open as possible, so we very much welcome the powers in the clause.

[The Minister for Digital and Culture (Matt Hancock)]

Clause 69 allows Ofcom to prepare and publish reports on underlying data at times it considers appropriate as opposed to at specified times, as is currently the case. The short answer to the hon. Lady’s question is yes. Before the end of the year, Ofcom will publish a “Connected Nations” report, for example, which typically goes into detail about the connectivity of the infrastructure, but there are restrictions at the moment on when these can be published. We think it is better to allow Ofcom to prepare and publish reports at times that it considers appropriate.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 69 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 70 and 71 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 72

Provision of information to OFCOM

[Matt Hancock]

I beg to move amendment 177, in clause 72, page 70, line 15, after “135”, insert “of the Communications Act 2003”.

This amendment makes it clear that the Act amended by clause 72 is the Communications Act 2003.

The amendment corrects a minor error to clause 72. We omitted the words

“of the Communications Act 2003”.

I consider this to be a pretty technical amendment.

Amendment 177 agreed to.

Clause 72, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 73

Information required from communications providers

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Louise Haigh]

I would like to put on the record again that this Bill was clearly not ready for Committee. We have just seen another example of an amendment that was completely uncalled for. In the last part, amendments had to be withdrawn that were incorrect. I hope that the proposals are properly examined in the Lords and that this is not a recurring theme throughout future legislation that this Government introduce. It is very disappointing to see the lack of preparation for this Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Hancock]

Amendment 177, which was agreed on a cross-party basis, corrects what was in fact a printing error. I hope that the hon. Lady will withdraw her rather pernickety point. I am glad that the Committee has had the opportunity to correct the problem.

[Louise Haigh]

It is good to hear that it was the 177th amendment that the Government have had to table to this Bill.

Let us move on to clause 73. The Minister will be pleased to hear that we welcome the clause, which has clearly been drafted with consumers at its heart. The clause provides Ofcom with powers to require information that will enable and empower consumers to switch, thereby creating a much more efficient and open market with fewer barriers to entry.

Ofcom does not currently have powers to require communications providers to provide information on quality of service, such as how they are doing on customer service, complaints, fault repairs or the speed of installation, and it does not have the power to specify how it would want that information to be provided. We welcome these new powers, which will make it much easier for Ofcom to publish this important comparative information that will help consumers.

I would be grateful if the Minister expanded on the points raised in relation to clause 69. He said that BT is about to be forthcoming with information on its existing infrastructure and on the roll-out of broadband. Can he confirm whether that information has been provided? If not, when does he expect it to be provided?

Subsection (5) of proposed new section 137A of the Communications Act 2003 states that the power conferred on Ofcom

“is to be exercised by a demand, contained in a notice served on the communications provider”.

Prior to that, a draft notice will stipulate a reasonable notice period. Can the Minister give us some examples of what he would consider to be a reasonable notice period for a particular dataset? Will that be in negotiation with a provider, or will it be set by Ofcom? What will be the consequence for communications providers that refuse to comply? Finally, how quickly would he like to see Ofcom publish the publishable data after receiving them from a communications provider?

We are happy to support clause 73 stand part.

[Matt Hancock]

Clause 73 paves the way for greater access to information to help consumers make more informed decisions. The hon. Lady has set out exactly why that is needed. The clause will also enable Ofcom to require providers to collect, retain or generate data for these purposes and to ensure that consumers are easily able to access information that is most relevant to their decision. The power will enable Ofcom to require information in machine-readable formats, for example, so that third parties can mash it and provide it in a usable, meaningful and accessible way for the consumer, thereby helping things such as comparison websites, which we strongly support.

On the hon. Lady’s specific questions, the data will form part of Ofcom’s data publication before the end of the year. She asked about a reasonable notice period, which will be for negotiation with providers. It is for Ofcom to decide when it is appropriate to make a publication, and it will endeavour to do so as soon as possible. On the consequences for providers that do not supply the data, these are highly regulated markets in which Ofcom has significant powers, some of which we are enhancing elsewhere in the Bill, so there will be very serious consequences for a provider that does not abide by a requirement from Ofcom to publish. I hope that answers the questions.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 73 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 74

Appeals from decisions of OFCOM and others: standard of review

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Louise Haigh]

The clause will reform the appeals process against Ofcom decisions, speeding up the process and ensuring that consumers’ interests are better prioritised. The Communications Act 2003 states clearly that Ofcom’s principal duty is to further the interests of citizens and consumers, but clearly there are issues with how the current appeals process works.

The current process is that Ofcom makes a decision following full consultation with the industry and the public; under the Competition Appeal Tribunal rules, an affected body can then appeal against the decision. Ofcom has six weeks to lodge its defence, and a month later substantive appeals are considered in a court case management conference, at which procedural and substantive points are raised. Third parties can then intervene, after which the appellant can lodge a reply. About a month before the hearing, the parties can lodge skeleton arguments. The hearing then takes place, and judgment is usually reserved. That judgment can take anything from weeks to up to a year. Parties then have about three weeks to decide whether they want to go to the Court of Appeal.

Not only is that process incredibly cumbersome, but it allows for considerable new evidence and new parties to the appeal, of which Ofcom had no knowledge at the consultation phase, to be brought forward mid-process. Under the new system, both the process of gathering evidence, including for the cross-examination of witnesses and experts, and the general treatment of that evidence are designed to be slimmed down. The system will still allow for an appeal, of course—that is only right for the sake of justice—but it will ensure that the appeals process does not unduly benefit those who can afford to litigate. It is alleged that it is currently those with the deepest pockets who bring forward the greatest number of appeals; indeed, most appellants have far deeper pockets than Ofcom has to defend itself with.

I have heard the concerns of some within the industry about the changes, as I am sure the Minister has. Although we are in favour of the Government’s proposals, I would appreciate the Minister’s response to some of those concerns. In a submission to the Committee, a group of the largest communications providers has claimed that the current appeals regime works well for consumers and has delivered consumer benefits to the tune of hundreds of millions of pounds.

[Louise Haigh]

I agree, and although I support the Government’s objective, it is of concern that such a wide range of communications providers—the biggest investors in communications infrastructure in the UK—are so vehemently opposed to the changes. This is exactly what the Committee stage of any Bill is designed for: to test out arguments and make sure that the right thing is being done. Will the Minister confirm what impact assessment of the proposals has been made, and what benefit he anticipates the changes will bring to consumers?

The submission that I mentioned claims that if the proposed regime had been in place, the mobile call termination case in 2007 would have led to a £265 million loss to consumers over the two-year period from 2010 to 2012. It states that

“in each of the cases cited, the Tribunal’s decision was that Ofcom’s decision had not gone far enough in consumers’ favour. The quantifiable financial impact of these appeals totalled a net benefit to consumers of around £350-400m.”

It says that the merits review

“enabled these errors to be corrected, the finding of the Government’s 2013 research was that on a JR”—

judicial review—

“standard, each of these decisions would have stood unadjusted.”

No one is saying that Ofcom will get things right 100% of the time—clearly, it will not. The new appeals process is not saying that either, but it will substantially raise the bar for appeals by allowing only regulated bodies to contest how a decision was made. Is the Minister confident that the decisions cited in the evidence from BT and the other providers would still be corrected under the new regime? The providers claim that they would not.

We have heard mixed messages about whether the proposals will bring the communications regulator in line with other utilities regulators. Ofcom told us in evidence that they would do just that, but is it not the case that the price control decisions of both Ofgem and Ofwat are subject to merits review by the Competition and Markets Authority? Will the Minister confirm why that is the case for other industries but not for communications?

On SMEs, techUK is particularly concerned that the higher bar of judicial review will have a disproportionate impact on smaller providers, which brought 17% of appeals between 2010 and 2015. I would be grateful if the Minister assured us that his Department has fully considered the impact these changes will have on SMEs, and particularly on new entrants to the market.

I understand that there will always be winners and losers in any regulatory change. The Minister will no doubt enjoy basking under the adoring gaze of TalkTalk and Three, but he will have to live with the fact that he is in BT’s and Virgin’s bad books for now. What is also clear is that for most people this appeals regime is far from well understood, as the industry claims. In fact, they would find it very difficult to understand why changes that could benefit them are being held up, sometimes for years on end, and why big communications providers are spending millions of pounds on litigation when they should be ploughing that money into helping their customers.

That is no basis on which to continue an appeals regime that leads to excessive litigation and smothers changes that may help—indeed, in some cases, may transform—consumers’ relationships with their communications providers. Clearly, during the exercise of that duty, Ofcom will be required to intervene and make a ruling, which sometimes the industry may not like.

If the broad contention on this side is that Ofcom should be given further powers to ensure that the industry acts in the best interests of consumers, there is little point in allowing an appeals process to continue that is so lengthy that it can render any changes useless. One particularly compelling example given in the evidence session was about the need for far greater switching for consumers. The chief executive of Three remarked that we are at the bottom of the class in terms of switching, and that despite nearly a decade of campaigning little has been done to get rid of provider-led switching. That was because when Ofcom tried to legislate on it, to enable consumers to switch, one of the major mobile providers was able to litigate and push the matter into the long grass, from where it has not emerged until today.

With all that in mind, and pending answers to the questions that I have put to the Minister, we are happy to support the clause.

[Matt Hancock]

That was an excellent assessment of the pros, cons and challenges around the proposed changes to appeals. Much of the analysis and thinking that the hon. Lady has just set out is what we went through in coming to the same conclusion that it is sensible to change the appeals process.

I will set out some of the detail of the changes and then I will answer the specific questions that were put. The clause alters the standard review applied by the Competition Appeal Tribunal when deciding appeals brought under the Competitions Act 2003 against decisions made by Ofcom. This is in order to make the appeals process more efficient. The changes will not apply to appeals against decisions made by Ofcom using powers under the Competition Act 1998 or the Enterprise Act 2002.

Currently, appeals can be brought and decided on the merits of a case, and this exceeds and effectively gold-plates article 4 of the EU framework directive that requires that the merits of a case are taken into account in any appeal. The result of this over-implementation is an unnecessarily intensive and burdensome standard of review that can result, as the hon. Lady set out, in very lengthy and costly appeals litigation, which can hinder timely and effective regulation, and risks Ofcom taking an overly risk-averse approach to regulating the sector properly.

[Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab)]

Would it also not give Ofcom much more credibility in the eyes of the organisations that it regulates, because they would realise that they had much less ability to overturn its decisions?

[Matt Hancock]

That is right. We heard the evidence from Three and TalkTalk, who are in favour of this change. That is no surprise, as they are essentially the insurgents in the infrastructure market, and the incumbents were less keen on this change. We also heard from Which? and Citizens Advice, which explained that it is no surprise that large companies want to keep the status quo.

It is not my job to bask in the reflected glory of the appreciation from Three or TalkTalk, nor is it to have undue concern, rather than due concern, for the complaints of those who disagree with this change.

[Calum Kerr]

The briefing we received recognises the Government’s line on the current approach but disagrees with the contention. It actually puts forward a form of words that it believes, if inserted, would not risk any issue with the relevant European directive. Have the Government considered that? I am happy to forward that form of words if the Minister does not know what I am referring to; it is in the latest briefing.

[Matt Hancock]

Again, I am happy to look at any detailed representation, but we have had significant and extensive discussions about this, including with techUK and others. On the SME point that techUK specifically raised, that was covered in the impact assessment that the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley asked about. It was published on 12 May; on page 15 it sets out the concern that, if we had a separate system for SMEs, we would end up with a yet more complicated process, as opposed to a simpler one, which I think would be an overall benefit.

[Louise Haigh]

I completely accept that we should not have separate regulatory systems for SMEs and larger providers. Will the Minister confirm that the new judicial review process will not unduly hinder SMEs, in contrast to the current “on the merits” appeal process?

[Matt Hancock]

I have looked at that specific point and I am satisfied that the new process does not, because a judicial review can take into account those sorts of concerns but is a more efficient process of appeal.

On the point raised by the hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk, I should say that we have considered using the language of the directive but we do not believe that it materially changes our approach. I said I would get back to the hon. Gentleman; I was a bit quicker than even I expected.

On that basis, I hope that the use of the well-tried and well-tested judicial review will prove a more efficient regulatory basis in future.

[Louise Haigh]

The Minister has not addressed a couple of points: the potential loss to consumers that the industry claims the new system will create and the cases that would not have been brought under the existing system; and the mixed messages we have heard about whether the Bill brings Ofcom into line with other utilities regulators.

[Matt Hancock]

On the first point, I am convinced that this change will act in the benefit of consumers, because we will have a quicker regulatory approach. The big incumbents will not be able to hold up a regulatory decision through aggressive use of the appeals process. Instead, we will have a more efficient appeals process. I am convinced that this will improve the situation for consumers.

Of course, it is possible to pick out individual cases that may have gone the other way or may not have been able to be considered under the new approach. First, it is not possible to know whether that is the case without testing them. Secondly, looking at individual cases out of context does not allow us to step back and look at the effective operation of the system as a whole. I am sure the hon. Lady agrees with that approach.

[Louise Haigh]

But is it not the point that those decisions were made by Ofcom and were incorrect, according to the tribunal? They were not made with consumers’ best interests at heart and they would not have been appealed under the new system because the method by which they arrived at those decisions was correct. Is there any scope in the proposals to allow certain examples, such as those put forward by the industry, to be given a merits-based review, as with price control reviews by Ofgem?

[Matt Hancock]

The cases that the hon. Lady and the industry cited have been assessed, and we believe that judgment under a JR system would have gone the same way as under the old system—but quicker. I hope that deals with that concern. JR is used in a large number of other areas. Of course there are specific other cases in which it is not, but it is a strong basis of appeal that is regularly used in public sector decisions. If material error is present, it can then be addressed by judicial review. I hope I have answered the hon. Lady’s questions.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 74 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 75

Functions of OFCOM in relation to the BBC

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Louise Haigh]

We do not wish to oppose Ofcom’s new role in regulating the BBC, for which clause 75 provides—as the Minister knows, we supported the BBC charter agreement last week in the House—but we have some concerns, which are shared by the BBC, about how Ofcom’s new role will work out in practice.

Distinctiveness is an absolutely vital characteristic of the BBC and its services. It is one of the things that justifies its public funding. The BBC should deliver its public purposes and mission, and it should serve all audiences, through distinctive services. Critically, distinctiveness should be judged at the level of services, rather than programmes. That does not mean that the BBC should focus on “market failure” programming or never make a programme that the commercial sector might make. Instead, the test should be that every BBC programme aspires to be the very best in its genre. Overall, the range of programmes in the BBC services should be distinguishable from its commercial competitors. There is a concern that Ofcom could be too prescriptive in the standards it expects of the BBC. For example, it might focus on quotas, such as the number of religious or news hours, rather than a substantive, qualitative assessment, and rather than a standard, such as high-quality journalism.

Evidence shows that BBC services are distinctive and have become more so in recent years. Audiences agree: more than 80% of the people responding to the Government’s charter review consultation said that the BBC serves audiences well, almost three quarters said that BBC services are distinctive and about two thirds said that they think it has a positive impact on the market.

The definition of distinctiveness in the agreement and the framework for measuring it are therefore critically important. The section of the charter agreement that relates to the new powers that will go to Ofcom requires Ofcom to set prescriptive and extensive regulatory requirements, which must be contained in an operating licence for BBC services. Ofcom must have a presumption against removing any of the current requirements on the BBC—there are about 140 quotas in the BBC’s existing service licences—and seek to increase the requirements overall by both increasing existing requirements and adding new ones.

Ofcom has been given detailed guidance about what aspects of distinctiveness it must consider for the BBC’s TV, radio and online services. That follows an old-fashioned approach to content regulation based on prescribing inputs, rather than securing audience outcomes, such as quality and impact. The BBC is concerned that it will introduce a prescriptive and inflexible regulatory framework that could restrict the BBC’s editorial independence and creativity.

Clarity about the definition of distinctiveness would be welcome. It should be applied to services, not individual programmes. The extensive content quotas in clause 2 of the charter should be a response to a failure to be distinctive, not the starting point.

[Louise Haigh]

That is a very great concern. There is a serious risk of confusion about how the new regulatory regime is going to work for both Ofcom and the BBC. To be frank, I do not think quotas are appropriate in this respect. I have got nothing against quotas—I was selected on an all-women shortlist, which aim to increase the number of women in the parliamentary Labour party.

[Matt Hancock]

You’d have got through anyway.

[Louise Haigh]

The Minister is absolutely correct that I would have won it on an open shortlist. It is very kind of him to say that.

But quotas in this respect restrict creativity and innovation, which are prerequisites of distinctiveness. Ofcom, as an independent regulator, should have the freedom to determine how best to regulate the BBC to secure policy goals. I would be grateful if the Minister confirmed what consideration has been given to the impact this will have on the quality programming we have come to expect from the BBC.

Finally, there is a concern that Ofcom may prejudice value for money over public interest. It would significantly reassure the BBC and the public, and would provide a greater degree of certainty over how Ofcom will behave in its enhanced regulatory role, if the same principles applied to the BBC charter—that there must be parity between public interest and value for money—were applied to Ofcom as well.

[Matt Hancock]

I am glad we have cross-party support for the clause, as we do for the BBC charter. It is incredibly helpful to the BBC’s role that it knows that the basis on which it operates and is regulated is supported on a cross-party basis.

It is very important—I will read this clearly on to the record—that distinctiveness as set out in the framework agreement is about BBC output and services as a whole, not specific programmes. Ofcom has the capability to make judgments about the overall distinctiveness of BBC output and services as a whole. That is the basis on which we expect it to operate under this legislation.

The hon. Lady asked whether there should be guidance underneath that. As she set out, there is existing guidance, and the public are very happy in large part with the result of that. I reject the idea that we cannot have any detail underneath the basis that distinctiveness should be decided on BBC output and services as a whole. At the moment, as she set out, there is detail, and it works well.

This is essentially an incremental approach. The BBC already faces this guidance and operates successfully. The clause is not prescriptive in that regard. Ofcom needs to operate in a reasonable way and exercise its judgment to ensure that we get the much-loved BBC operating as well as it can, as it has in the past and as it should in the future.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 75 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 76

TV licence fee concessions by reference to age

[Matt Hancock]

I beg to move amendment 178, in clause 76, page 74, line 24, at end insert—

‘( ) In subsection (4)(a) after “concession” insert “provided for by the regulations”.”

Section 365A(4) inserted by clause 76(6) gives the BBC power, where they determine that a TV licence fee concession is to apply, to provide how entitlement to the concession may be established. This amendment makes a consequential amendment to the Secretary of State’s power to make similar provision.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments 179 to 181.

[Matt Hancock]

Clause 76 will transfer policy responsibility for the concession that provides for free TV licences for those aged over 75 to the BBC. These technical amendments clarify the relationship between the Secretary of State’s power to set concessions and the BBC’s power to set concessions for those aged 65 and over. The amendments provide clarity, making it clear that the power of the BBC from June 2020 to determine age-related concessions for people over 65 extends to any such concession as previously provided for by the Secretary of State, with the exception of the current residential care concession. That was always the intended effect of the clause, and the amendments merely provide greater clarity in the drafting and remove any ambiguity.

Amendment 178 agreed to.

Amendments made: 179, in clause 76, page 74, line 26, after “section” insert “or section 365A”

This extends the definition of “concession” given in section 365(5) of the Communications Act 2003 to section 365A inserted by clause 76(6).

Amendment 180, in clause 76, page 74, leave out lines 28 and 29 and insert—

‘(5A) Regulations under this section may not provide for a concession that requires the person to whom the TV licence is issued, or another person, to be of or above a specified age, unless—

(a) the age specified is below 65, and

(b) the requirement is not satisfied if the person concerned is 65 or over at the end of the month in which the licence is issued.

(5B) Subsection (5A) does not apply to—

(a) the concession provided for by regulation 3(d) of and Schedule 4 to the Communications (Television Licensing) Regulations 2004 (S.I. 2004/692) (accommodation for residential care), or

(b) a concession in substantially the same form.”

This amendment allows the Secretary of State to continue the existing concession in relation to accommodation for residential care, including its age-related element, after May 2020, but after that date any other age-related concession would be a decision for the BBC (see amendment 181).

Amendment 181, in clause 76, page 74, line 33, leave out from “apply” to end of line 39 and insert—

‘(1A) Any concession under this section must include a requirement that the person to whom the TV licence is issued, or another person, is of or above a specified age, which must be 65 or higher, at or before the end of the month in which the licence is issued.

(1B) A determination under this section—

(a) may in particular provide for a concession to apply, subject to subsection (1A), in circumstances where a concession has ceased to have effect by virtue of section 365(5A), but

(b) may not provide for a concession to apply in the same circumstances as a concession within section 365(5B).” —(Matt Hancock.)

This amends the power of the BBC from June 2020 to determine age-related concessions for people over 65, to make clear that it extends to any such concessions previously provided for by the Secretary of State, with the exception of the current residential care concession (see amendment 180).

Question proposed, That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 38—Responsibility for policy and funding of TV licence fee concessions—

After section 365(5) of the Communications Act 2003 insert—

“(5A) It shall be the responsibility of the Secretary of State to—

(a) specify the conditions under which concessions are entitled, and

(b) provide the BBC with necessary funding to cover the cost of concessions,

and this responsibility shall not be delegated to any other body.”

This new clause seeks to enshrine in statute that it should be the responsibility of the Government to set the entitlement for any concessions and to cover the cost of such concession. This new clause will ensure the entitlement and cost of over-75s TV licences remain with the Government. It would need to be agreed with Clause 76 not standing part of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mark Menzies]

I hope the hon. Lady will forgive me; I have given way to her several times. The BBC will have more resources as a result of this. The over-75 licence fee will become the responsibility of the BBC, but the indications from the Government are clear: we are committed to free licences for the over-75s, as we promised in our manifesto.

[Matt Hancock]

It was going so well and we were having such a rational debate until that sudden outburst. Let me respond to the points that were made. I am proud to support clause 76, which safeguards the TV licence and delivers on our manifesto commitment to maintain free TV licences in this Parliament. Until that speech right at the end, we heard an awful lot of bluster but saw little light, so I will remind the Committee of a few facts.

First, transferring the responsibility for the free TV licences to the BBC as part of the funding settlement was agreed with the BBC and is what it says on the tin: it is part of a funding settlement. The question of who pays is part of the funding of the BBC. In July last year, Tony Hall, the Director General of the BBC, said:

"I think we have a deal here which is a strong deal for the BBC. It gives us financial stability."

I suggest that anybody who votes against clause 76 votes against financial stability of the BBC and is ultimately voting to put the free TV licence at risk. I will be saying to all 8,853 of my constituents who get a free TV licence that we are safeguarding the free TV licence.

In the run-up to the 2015 general election, during which we committed to protecting the TV licence in this Parliament, who was it that wanted to do away with it? Who was it? A certain Mr Ed Balls, who is now more famous for being on the TV than for talking about TV policy. When he was questioned about whether the universal free TV licence should stay, while he was saying that the universal winter fuel payments should not, he said:

“I think you have to be pragmatic”

about the TV licence. It was the Labour party that put the free TV licence at risk and we are proud that we supported it in our manifesto.

The director-general did not stop there. He also said:

“The government’s decision here to put the cost of the over-75s on us has been more than matched by the deal coming back for the BBC.”

Unfortunately for those who seek to cause a fuss about this, their view on funding seems to go against the view of the director-general of the BBC.

[Kevin Brennan]

Will the Minister give way?

[Matt Hancock]

I will give way if the hon. Gentleman can explain why he disagrees with the director-general of the BBC.

[Kevin Brennan]

The Minister does not understand parliamentary procedure. That is not a reason to give way. He should give way to allow me to ask him a question, to avoid my having to make a speech. My question—a straightforward question, which does not require anything but a straightforward answer—is on what principle he thinks that this is the right move.

[Matt Hancock]

On the principle that the BBC is responsible for the funding of the BBC according to the licence fee negotiations agreed with the Government. This is a funding decision, and funding issues are for the BBC.

I have given the Opposition a couple of quotations from the head of the BBC about why he agrees with the policy. Let me give them another quotation:

“The Labour party welcomes the fact that the charter provides the BBC with the funding and security it needs as it prepares to enter its second century of broadcasting.”—[Official Report, 18 October 2016; Vol. 615, c. 699.]

Not my words, but those of the boss of the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley, the shadow Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, the hon. Member for West Bromwich East (Mr Watson). Well, I agree with her boss—he was absolutely right.

[Louise Haigh]

Will the Minister give way?

[Matt Hancock]

Of course I will give way—if the hon. Lady can explain why she disagrees with her boss.

[Louise Haigh]

I made it clear that we support the BBC charter, but my boss—as the Minister calls him—and I also made it clear that we do not support this element of it.

I have two more quotations to put to the Minister. In the Lords debate on the charter two weeks ago, the assessment of the former BBC director-general, John Birt, was that

“the impact…will be—over the span of a decade—to take almost exactly 25% out of the real resources available to the BBC for its core services. A massive reduction in programming is therefore simply unavoidable.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 12 October 2016; Vol. 774, c. 1950.]

The former chairman of the BBC Trust, Chris Patten, then said:

“I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Birt, said about the licence fee settlement—not just the finance on the table but the way it was done. It was a scandal to do it like that”.—[Official Report, House of Lords, 12 October 2016; Vol. 774, c. 1954.]

The Opposition absolutely agree.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Hancock]

That is not related to clause 76. What is related to the clause is the fact that the BBC agrees it has the funding it needs, as I set out and as agreed by the shadow Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport.

My next point is about why we are transferring the power and why it would be wrong to adopt new clause 38, which would undermine the BBC’s funding settlement. The reason is that the BBC asked for it. It is incumbent on those who propose new clause 38 and oppose clause 76 to explain why they disagree with the BBC, with this strong settlement and with all those who say that we have provided a good funding settlement for the BBC. Instead of pressing the new clause, I suggest that the hon. Lady should support clause 76, to put the BBC’s funding on a sustainable footing for years to come.

[Louise Haigh]

The hon. Member for Fylde said that he opposed our new clause on two grounds, of which the first was that the BBC provides free TV licences. It does, but we have absolutely no guarantee that it will continue to do so.

The Minister is correct that the BBC asked for this, but as I referred to earlier, the BBC asked for the policy on who should and should not get a free TV licence because the funding was forced on it. It asked for that funding because it wants to reduce the number of people who get free TV licences in the future—it as much as said that to us. We do not want the BBC to have that policy; nor do we want it to have the funding settlement. It is a principle that we fundamentally oppose, so we intend to test the will of the Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[Louise Haigh]

Thousands of individuals are plagued by nuisance calls every day. I will turn to that in my remarks on clause stand part, but I shall speak to the amendments and new clause first. We welcome the inclusion in the Bill of a direct marketing code. If it works effectively, it will contain practical guidance and promote good practice in direct marketing activities. It will help to guide the experiences of companies and individuals, but direct marketing, as we know, is fairly narrowly defined and refers to the direct selling of products and services to the public. It is covered under the Data Protection Act 1998 and the privacy and electronic communications regulations. The rules cover not only commercial organisations but not-for-profit organisations such as charities and political parties. The rules for direct marketing are very clear and are becoming —absolutely rightly—increasingly tougher.

There are two types of nuisance call: live marketing calls—unwanted marketing calls from a real person—or automated marketing calls, which are pre-recorded marketing messages that are played when someone answers the phone. They are covered by a raft of legislation and regulation attempting to clamp down on that type of behaviour. Our amendments attempt to broaden the definition of the new direct marketing codes, so the law will cover not only direct consumer marketing but consumer engagement.

Direct marketing uses personal data and demographic insights relating to residence and the habits of people previously to market to people individually and directly. Consumer engagement is much broader and involves the use of personal data to engage with customers for a broad set of business processes, which include, but are not restricted to, direct marketing. TV advertising, for example, is not considered to be direct marketing, but TV advertising campaigns can be designed with information derived from consumer data and used to target broad groups of consumers based on data derived from individuals.

In our view, the direct marketing code, which we very much welcome, and the Information Commissioner’s guidance in this field should cover this broader use of individuals’ data. As we have said throughout, we want data to be used responsibly, and this simple amendment would extend the code to apply to all uses of data in consumer marketing, and not just the kind that is used to directly target people.

[Matt Hancock]

What a welcome return to sense from the Opposition. The amendments tabled to clause 77 relate to the definition of direct marketing, which, as defined in the Data Protection Act, is

“the communication (by whatever means) of any advertising or marketing material which is directed to particular individuals.”

The definition captures any advertising or marketing material, not just commercial marketing, which is a point that the hon. Lady made, as well as all promotional material, including material promoting the aims of not-for-profit organisations. It also covers any messages that include some marketing elements, even if that is not the main purpose of the message.

The privacy and electronic communications regulations put direct marketing by electronic means into the scope of the definition, thus making it applicable to telephone calls, both live and automated, faxes, emails, text messages and other forms of electronic communication. It is essential that the definition of direct marketing in the PECR remains aligned with the definition in the Data Protection Act, so that the Information Commissioner’s Office’s powers of enforcement for nuisance calls to remain effective and enforceable in law.

New clause 34 is intended to amend the PECR, to extend to company directors and other officers liability for breaches when those officers have allowed breaches to occur or when breaches have happened because of something they have failed to do. In that way, the Information Commissioner could impose fines on company officers rather than just on companies as at present. The proposal relates to nuisance calls made by organisations. They are a blight on society, causing significant distress to elderly and vulnerable people in particular.

[The Chair]

It may be helpful for the Minister to know that, because of a miscommunication between Mr Kerr and myself, Mr Kerr will speak to new clause 34 when the Minister sits down, so the Minister may want to save his comments until later. Please continue.

[Matt Hancock]

I hope that I will still agree with new clause 34 then; I think I will, because I am so enthusiastic about it.

[Calum Kerr]

Feel free to carry on, Minister, if you are enjoying yourself.

[Matt Hancock]

I thank the hon. Gentleman.

I hope that, having answered the hon. Lady’s questions in relation to amendments that I think are intended to probe and in anticipation of our coming on to new clause 34, she will be able to withdraw her amendment.

[Calum Kerr]

I am sorry for the miscommunication; it was my fault. Actually, having read the newspapers at the weekend, I think that the Minister may be in agreement on extending the penalties in relation to nuisance callers to company directors; I certainly read a number of quotes about the importance of doing that. What I am unclear about—perhaps he will enlighten me—is whether he intends to accept our new clause or whether he has another vehicle by which he intends to make this change. I would be grateful to him if he intervened, because there is no point in my—

[Matt Hancock]

We agree with moving liability on to individuals rather than on to companies, because sometimes those companies will be closed down, bought up and restarted under a different name very quickly. We propose to do that by tabling a Government amendment.

[Calum Kerr]

I thank the Minister for that intervention. I had thought that I might have done his homework for him already with new clause 34. Perhaps he might consider embracing the cross-party consensual nature that might return after the BBC fun and games—except on tobacco ads, which certainly go too far.

[Matt Hancock]

Before I was stopped by Mr Streeter, I was going to say precisely that—namely that I have just announced that we intend to introduce such measures. We need to consult on the exact details of those measures, which is why I do not propose to accept the new clause, but we intend to put into place something of similar substance.

[Calum Kerr]

Excellent. I thank the Minister for that and given that comment, rather than outlining the full case for why I think accepting new clause 34 is a good idea, I will embrace the positivity and happily sit down, without pressing my new clause, knowing that the Government will introduce a similar measure.

--- Later in debate ---

On the marketing code, I urge the Minister to take on board the point made by the hon. Member for Hyndburn about looking at the ability to capture and identify people who are making illegal and unsolicited marketing calls, often to very vulnerable people. As we heard in evidence, it is very difficult to identify and pin those people down. Some of the things required are the website address, telephone number and company name. These people are professional crooks and shysters. They are disreputable and know exactly how to inveigle their way round the law to take advantage of vulnerable people. I urge the Minister, when is he looking at this measure in its totality, to consider ways in which we can strengthen the ability to capture and identify people who target the vulnerable and the elderly.

[Matt Hancock]

The hon. Member for Hyndburn made an impassioned plea. I recognise the long-standing interest of my hon. Friend the Member for Fylde in this issue and the work he has done.

[Graham Jones]

A Lancashire alliance!

[Matt Hancock]

There is a real Lancashire alliance to ensure people do not get pestered. The clause will place a statutory duty on the Information Commissioner to publish a direct marketing code of practice. I am sure that the Information Commissioner will have heard the plea for a pro forma, which could appear in such statutory guidance.

We all know, from being sent emails that we are not interested in, how powerful it is almost always to have an “unsubscribe” link at the bottom; we can get rid of a lot of junk by clicking that. Nuisance calls continue to blight people’s lives, particularly the vulnerable, who rely on their phones as a main point of contact. So far in 2016, the Information Commissioner’s Office has issued fines totalling £1.5 million to companies behind nuisance marketing. Those firms were responsible for 70 million calls and more than half a million spam text messages. That should give the Committee a feel of the scale of the problem.

We think that the new code will support a reduction in the number of unwanted direct marketing calls by making it easier for the Information Commissioner to take effective action against organisations in breach of the direct marketing code under the Data Protection Act and the privacy and electronic communications regulations. In response to the specific question whether this applies also to snail mail, the answer is yes. The mail preference service to which individuals can subscribe to prevent direct marketing mail already exists but is also covered by the statutory code of practice.

[Graham Jones]

Does the Minister agree that it would bring not only function but pleasure to have a return mailing address on the front, so that we could take no more and shove this mail back in the red box?

[Matt Hancock]

I am sure the Information Commissioner will have heard the hon. Gentleman’s plea. There is such logic and force behind it that I am sure it will be taken into account.

[Kevin Brennan]

We very much support the concession that the Minister made following the evidence session and the amendments tabled. Does he think that anything more could be done where the origin of these calls is overseas, as with very many of them?

[Matt Hancock]

I propose after consultation to bring in measures to ensure that the liability is on the individual. That will significantly strengthen the hand of the regulator here, alongside the code of practice, but I am open to working with the hon. Gentleman and others to see what else we can do for calls that originate from overseas. I entirely understand the problem. Ultimately, we are trying to stop as much spamming as possible, while allowing people to communicate and use modern means of communication.

[Calum Kerr]

Last week I had a call from a director from Ofcom, who had just returned from south-east Asia, discussing nuisance calls. As the Government go around the world setting up their new trade agreements, perhaps they might consider this one of the clauses they build in around nuisance calls.

[Matt Hancock]

That is an interesting suggestion. Of course, this will apply to overseas companies; it is just that, as we have discussed in other parts of the Bill, that is harder to enforce against.

Finally, there was discussion about charities making nuisance calls. Charities, and agents on their behalf, were covered in the Charities (Protection and Social Investment) Act 2016, which introduced a new regulator specifically for charities in this space. With those explanations, I urge that the clause stand part of the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 77 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 78 to 81 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 82

Commencement

[Matt Hancock]

I beg to move amendment 182, in clause 82, page 80, line 3, at end insert—

“() section (Power to apply settlement finality regime to payment institutions);”

This provides for new clause NC29 to come into force on royal assent. By convention regulations made under the section inserted by that clause would not be made so as to come into force earlier than two months after royal assent.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Government amendment 184.

Government new clause 29—Power to apply settlement finality regime to payment institutions.

Government new clause 30—Bank of England oversight of payment systems.

Government new schedule 2—Bank of England oversight of payment systems.

Government amendment 187.

[Matt Hancock]

We are committed to creating a more competitive financial services sector. Like many other parts of the Bill, this one covers the private sector. Greater competition in financial services creates better outcomes for consumers and lowers the cost and broadens the range of services available. These measures pave the way for a broader access to payment systems, driving competition in them.

New clause 29 allows the Treasury to extend the benefits of the existing settlement finality regime to non-bank firms that provide payment services, such as Worldpay, through statutory instrument. The existing regulations provide that payments initiated in these systems by banks cannot be unwound if a bank becomes insolvent while it has an unsettled transaction in the system. This is important for the integrity of payment systems, but currently does not extend to payments initiated by non-bank payment institutions, which are a growing part of the financial services system. Extending coverage to transactions initiated by non-bank payment institutions will therefore enable those institutions to obtain direct access to payment systems.

New clause 30 and new schedule 2 amend the Banking Act 2009 so that the Treasury can formally recognise a non-bank payment system for regulatory oversight by the Bank of England. Currently, the Bank of England may only supervise interbank payment systems. Without this change, if a non-bank system were to grow rapidly, the Treasury and the Bank of England would have limited tools to address any financial stability risks stemming from a non-bank system in a timely manner. This is required now, as a systemically important non-bank system is made more likely by broadening access to payment systems, as it creates the conditions that make non-bank systems more likely to grow.

Together, the two measures enable broader access to payment systems. The impact assessments for both are with the Regulatory Policy Committee and we expect them to be non-qualifying on the grounds that they are pro-competition, support financial stability and have a low regulatory burden.

Amendment 182 agreed to.

[Matt Hancock]

I beg to move amendment 183, in clause 82, page 80, line 14, leave out “section” and insert “sections (Suspension of radio licences for inciting crime or disorder) and”.

This provides for new clause NC28 to come into force 2 months after Royal Assent.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Government new clause 27—Digital additional services: seriously harmful extrinsic material.

Government new clause 28—Suspension of radio licences for inciting crime or disorder.

[Matt Hancock]

We take very seriously the responsibility to ensure that the broadcasting regulatory framework is as robust as possible. As part of the cross-Government strategy to ensure we are doing all we can to counter the pernicious impact of extremism and extremist narratives, we and Ofcom have carefully assessed whether consumers are fully protected from the most harmful content on TV and radio. That work identified potential anomalies in the current broadcasting legislation, which the amendment and new clauses seek to address.

Ofcom requires broadcasters to hold a licence to broadcast on TV or radio in the UK. The licence regime has developed over time and in response to technological developments. Different licence regimes apply depending on the way in which broadcast content is received.

New clause 27 relates to a subset of Ofcom licences known as digital television additional services licences—in effect, a catch-all for the range of services that do not fall under the more usual licences required to broadcast directly via satellite and cable or the digital television platform. There are two DTAS licenses, or portal channels, which provide viewers using connected or smart TVs on the freeview platform with access to internet-streamed television channels by first going through the electronic program guide.

A potential anomaly we want to address arises because one of the portal channels has begun contracting with internet-streamed channel providers based outside the European economic area, which could potentially give rise to a situation where that internet-streamed channel includes seriously harmful content without Ofcom or any other regulator having recourse to act. I want to absolutely clear that there is no suggestion that any of the current DTAS licensees would purposefully provide access to seriously harmful content, but I am sure the Committee will agree that having that happen inadvertently, and finding regulators are unable to act, is not a position we would like to be in. The amendment puts it beyond doubt that Ofcom is able to set conditions to act.

New clause 28 concerns radio. At present, there is a limitation in Ofcom’s ability quickly to deal with the exceptional circumstance of a terrestrial radio station, whether analogue or digital, repeatedly broadcasting harmful material that incites listeners to crime or disorder. We are acting to prevent such an outcome.

Amendment 183 agreed to.

Amendment made: 184, in clause 82, page 80, line 14, at end insert—

“() section (Bank of England oversight of payment systems) and Schedule (Bank of England oversight of payment systems).”—(Matt Hancock.)

The amendment provides for the new clause and Schedule about the Bank of England’s oversight of payment systems (NC30 and NS2) to come into force 2 months after Royal Assent.

Clause 82, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 83

Extent

[Matt Hancock]

I beg to move amendment 185, in clause 83, page 80, line 31, at end insert—

‘( ) Section (Qualifications in information technology: payment of tuition fees) extends to England and Wales only.”

This amendment is consequential on NC26.

[The Chair]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Government new clause 26—Qualifications in information technology: payment of tuition fees.

Government amendment 186.

[Matt Hancock]

This is one of the clauses I am most excited about. We are committed to public investment in skills and learning to ensure everyone has the chance to master the basic skills required to get on in life and work. We are very clear that, in addition to numeracy and literacy, that now includes digital. Our workplaces and homes are increasingly integrated with digital technologies, so we are clear that a sound grasp of basic digital skills is as important as numeracy and literacy.

Too many adults are unable effectively to use the digital technologies that allow them to keep in touch with friends and family, find the cheapest offers for goods and services, search for jobs online and work effectively and productively in those jobs. All too often, the digitally excluded come from the least advantaged parts of our society—the less well paid, the older and the more geographically remote. We are committed to making society work for everyone, and we take the issue of digital exclusion very seriously. That is why we intend, in this amendment, to create a duty on the Secretary of State for Education to ensure that, where specified, digital skills qualifications are made available by providers and that they are free of charge to people aged 19 and over who need them and do not already have the relevant qualification.

This duty will measure the duties for maths and English provision for adults. The justification is clear: people who can effectively use digital technology pay less for goods and services, save time on routine tasks, can more easily connect with society and can attract a wage premium in the labour market. We want to enhance social mobility and give everyone the opportunity to acquire the skills they need to succeed in the modern workplace.

--- Later in debate ---

[Calum Kerr]

We seem to have raced through this final section, for which I commend all right hon. and hon. Members. We do not need the gift of foresight to know that the Minister will tell me, “We do not do reviews in this Government. We expect someone else to do them for us.” Let me briefly explain why I support new clause 1, which I will not press to a vote, and I will then touch on new clause 20.

We heard an excellent articulation in the evidence sessions of the value of third-party infrastructure as an effective means of maximising communication roll-out across the country. Today, about a third of the UK’s 27,000 masts are independently operated, and that contrasts with about 60% of masts globally. In EU countries, it is 80%. Independent analysis has shown that independently operated towers across Europe and North America host at least twice as many masts as when those towers are operated by the mobile companies themselves. As we map a new digital future—we are all excited to see what the new Minister does with his digital strategy for the country—we should be conscious of the fact that we will need a lot more masts. We know that he knows that. Technology such as 5G is higher frequency and covers shorter distances. Unless we want our country to resemble the back of a hedgehog, we need to look at effective ways of minimising the number of masts while maximising the coverage we need.

With the approach in the new clause, we are looking to encourage the Government to be consciously competent and to come forward with a model or measures that will enhance the further deployment of shared infrastructure, so that as we deploy 5G and embrace the technology of the future, we minimise the impact on our environment.

New clause 20 is certainly a different take on this area. It is well meaning but not quite right, to be honest. I do not think the idea of a universal service applies in the same way for mobile as it does for wired. It is probably something we will evolve to as the worlds of wired and wireless networks intertwine and overlap going forward. I would be happy to support the new clause, but I would welcome some more discussion.

I hope the Government and the new Minister and team recognise that third-party infrastructure will be central to driving the coverage model in rural and urban areas as we look to put a lot more masts out there to deliver the potential speeds and capability of the technology in the future. If the Minister will not give me a review, perhaps he will at least throw me a bone or two that things are beyond, “Hopefully the Select Committee will do a review.” The Select Committee has only so much bandwidth to do it.

[Matt Hancock]

I can do better than merely asking the Select Committee, although I do think that Select Committees do important reports and should not be denigrated. Ofcom has also been given a statutory duty to provide a report to the Secretary of State every three years on the state of the UK’s communications infrastructure, including the extent to which UK networks share infrastructure. That is precisely what the new clause asks for as a one-off. I assure the hon. Gentleman that the reports will happen regularly. The next three-yearly report is due in 2017, which is the same time that new clause 1 specifies for its review.

Moving on to new clause 20, we recognise the importance of improving mobile coverage. I support the intention behind it, but I do not think a statutory review is necessary at this time. We already have building blocks in place to deliver extensive mobile connectivity, and it is happening. The changes that we have debated today will give Ofcom the ability to provide data to ensure that we know how effective mobile connectivity is. We have legally binding licence obligations to ensure that each mobile operator provides voice coverage to at least 90% of the UK land mass. Taken together, 98% of the UK will have a mobile signal by the end of 2017, according to the agreements.

[Louise Haigh]

Does the Minister envisage, then, that Ofcom will gather data to produce reports on the extent of mobile coverage against the Government targets set with mobile network operators?

[Matt Hancock]

I do expect that. I can confirm my expectation that that is what Ofcom will do.

[Louise Haigh]

How often does the Minister expect Ofcom to produce those reports?

[Matt Hancock]

We just changed the rules so that instead of being restricted to producing such reports three times a year, Ofcom can do so whenever it thinks it appropriate. That will provide for Ofcom to be able to do so as much as possible, but I committed earlier today to having a connected nations report before the end of this year. I hope that that provides for what the hon. Lady seeks in new clause 20 and that the hon. Members will not press their new clauses.

[Calum Kerr]

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.

Clause, by leave, withdrawn.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Graham Stuart.)

Digital Economy Bill (Eighth sitting)

Matt Hancock Excerpts

Committee Debate: 8th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 25th October 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Calum Kerr (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) (SNP)]

I feel that I should thank you for your chairmanship, Mr Streeter; I feel a bit left out, given that the Opposition spokesperson did it. Thank you so much for your chairmanship. It is nice to see a smile at the top table.

I will add a couple of brief points. I am surprised the hon. Member for Cardiff West earned only £10.60. I thought he displayed some creativity. I have never heard so many song lyrics or titles; I do not know if he is on commission for that. Hopefully, journalists across the country are googling—that is appropriate, given what we are discussing today—for what content he has earned £10.60, so that number may go up.

[The Minister for Digital and Culture (Matt Hancock)]

Other search engines are available.

[Calum Kerr]

Indeed—I thank the Minister. There is an interesting point here about the importance of parity across channels. The Scottish National party is clear in supporting the repeal of section 73. The hon. Member for Cardiff West made a point about the many different ways in which people can access content, which he articulated well, and the importance of being consciously competent across all areas when making legislative change. I am interested in hearing the Minister’s remarks on that.

We noted earlier the concerns specifically in relation to Virgin as a large cable company, but I want to put on the record very clearly that we absolutely support the Government in repealing section 73. As these models change and people access content in different ways, the ability for them to earn revenue from the content they produce becomes all the more important, because they cannot necessarily rely on its being consumed in a way that ensures that advertising revenues naturally flow. I emphasise that we support this, we welcome the Government’s bringing it forward but we would like a bit more clarity from the Minister around the broader picture.

[Matt Hancock]

I am delighted to respond to these points. I take this opportunity to commend the Opposition Front Benchers and, in particular, the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley, for how she proved, earlier in Committee, how it is possible to put points with great clarity and precision, such that on Thursday we rose early—somehow that seems unlikely today.

[Kevin Brennan]

Will the Minister give way?

[Matt Hancock]

No. The Government are committed to repealing section 73 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, following public consultation which ended this year and concluded that section 73 is no longer relevant. Amendments 63, 64 and 94 seek to ensure that the repeal will be brought into force rapidly following Royal Assent and amendment 189 would provide for the Government to produce a report on the implications and a consultation on the future of television content distribution and public service broadcasters. I should say that after today’s Committee session I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Selby and Ainsty will be known as “the IP king”. He has been the most ardent defender of intellectual property and its protection and he made very strong arguments.

On the case for a report and a consultation, Opposition Front Benchers asked the Government to face up to the challenges of new technology and its impact on public sector broadcasting and more broadly, and it is absolutely true that there is a huge impact of technology, both in distribution methods and in software, in terms of how we are watching content. Indeed, I understand that in China more films are watched on a hand-held than on a fixed device, and the trend is in the same direction here. This is clearly a very big issue and I am glad that all members of the Committee are alive to it.

I would say, though, that in response to amendment 189, we did just hold a public consultation precisely on the balance of payments between television platforms and the public sector broadcasters which considered the regulatory framework. It considered these questions and came forward with the proposal to repeal section 73. So I gently say to Opposition Front Benchers that, although I can see the point of the amendment, the report that they seek and the consultation that they are asking for by way of what I accept is a probing amendment is what we delivered through that consultation earlier in the year. The changes that we are seeking to make in legislation are a conclusion of exactly the sort of consultation that they have been looking for. The consultation was published on 5 July. I am glad that its conclusions have cross-party support.

We strongly support public service broadcasting in the UK. We believe that it has a long, vital and sustainable future and we will ensure that it does. I cannot give a clearer commitment to public service broadcasting. Even through these changes in technology, the evidence on viewer habits shows that public service broadcasting remains valued and valuable, and we support it.

I turn to some of the detailed questions. I was asked about the TPS regulatory regime. That was also considered as part of the consultation. We decided that different regulatory regimes are still appropriate, given the differing technical requirements of different TV platforms. There is a big change: an amalgamation of different delivery platforms for broadcasting from the old cable, terrestrial and satellite, and increasingly things are moving to broadband and fibre.

Following our discussion last week, I note that today TalkTalk has announced a full roll-out of full fibre to the whole of York, so there is progress in the full fibre drive that we are looking for in this country. However, there remain different technologies, so we think that it is still appropriate to have different regulatory regimes for them, although clearly the interoperability between them is important. I hope that that explanation addresses the point.

[Kevin Brennan]

Does the Minister have any concerns, or did the review reveal any concerns, about the point that I made about the opaqueness of the kind of deal now done under the TPS regime? That makes it impossible to judge whether it is truly fairer to public service broadcasters.

[Matt Hancock]

I will come to that and answer it alongside the question about the impact of removing section 73 where there are must-offer obligations. In truth, there are a huge number of commercial deals between the public service broadcasters and those that carry the PSB content to a wider distribution network. Whether it is through the TPS regime or the regime that we are discussing, many PSB broadcasters have contractual arrangements for their non-PSB content. That happens perfectly reasonably, whether it is through that regulatory regime or through a non-PSB deal delivered using non-satellite transmission.

We do not expect PSB content to be withdrawn because of the existence of contractual arrangements for PSB content replacing section 73. Indeed, there are contractual arrangements for lots of non-PSB content, so I do not see why those contracts cannot be entered into, but the issue does lead to the question whether there should be a transitional regime to ensure that there is no interregnum.

In the event of a PSB and a platform failing to agree terms for the carriage of a service, it is for Ofcom to consider whether the proposal of the PSB was compliant with the must-offer obligations in its licence. Were Ofcom to conclude that it was not, it would expect the PSB to submit a revised offer to the platform. Until now, Ofcom has not had to intervene, because no disputes have arisen presenting any real risk of refusal to supply by PSBs or to carry by platform operators.

The timing question was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Selby and Ainsty and by the Opposition. The consultation report included an assessment of the implications of repealing section 73, and there was recognition of the potential impacts on the underlying rights market, meaning that the Government have decided that a further technical consultation should be run by the Intellectual Property Office.

I assure the Committee that the Government have every intention of bringing into force the repeal of section 73 rapidly; we plan to do it before the start of summer recess 2017. Repealing section 73 immediately could impact rights that have previously been exempt from remuneration in relation to the underlying copyright content in cable retransmissions, such as those held by scriptwriters or musicians whose intellectual property forms part of the relevant broadcast content. Our approach is to ensure an orderly transition.

Some respondents to the original consultation said that there could be disputes between the cable platform and the underlying rights holders when trying to agree terms and that a transitional period may be helpful. The Intellectual Property Office is currently running a brief technical consultation, as has been mentioned, to examine the extent of those issues and to assess whether any transitional measures are required.

I do not want to prejudice the outcome of the consultation, but in terms of whether a transitional period would be required, the IPO’s consultation seeks views on options ranging from no transitional period to a transitional period of up to two years following Royal Assent. Even if the full transitional period is decided on as a result of that consultation, and assuming that the Bill receives Royal Assent in spring 2017, we expect the repeal of section 73 to come fully into force by spring 2019 at the latest.

[Kevin Brennan]

The Minister talked about bringing the repeal into force rapidly before the summer recess in 2017, and then issued further caveats and talked about 2019. Will he clarify that for the Committee?

[Matt Hancock]

Yes. We will bring the repeal into force before the start of the summer recess in 2017. There may then be a transitional period, depending on the current IPO consultation, but the maximum transitional period, should there be one, will be two years. I added two years on to the summer recess of 2017 to get to what the Government call spring 2019—it will probably be the warmer end of spring.

[Nigel Adams]

Will the Minister give some indication of the potential timescale of the IPO’s technical consultation?

[Matt Hancock]

It is a four-week consultation and it started yesterday, so it has three weeks and six days to run, if my maths are right.

[Kevin Brennan]

I am grateful to the Minister for clarifying that timetable as he envisages it. In addition to that, during the course of my remarks I talked about the possibility of a dispute arising between a public service broadcaster and a platform following the repeal of section 73. What is the Minister’s view on how that sort of dispute could be resolved without consumers being affected?

[Matt Hancock]

That could easily be resolved by a contractual agreement, as the two parties in such cases have in many other examples. For example, Channel 4 has a PSB element and non-PSB channels. The non-PSB channels are not covered by section 73, so the PSB element of Channel 4’s broadcasting will be in a similar position to its non-PSB element in future. Since those contractual arrangements exist between the parties covered by section 73, I see no reason why they cannot pretty quickly put in place similar contractual arrangements, not least because the decision to repeal section 73 was taken some months ago and the companies have had some time to prepare.

The final point raised was about the impact of the repeal on Virgin Media’s broadband roll-out. I see absolutely no link between the two. I am delighted that Virgin Media is looking at a broader, full-fibre roll-out, in the same way that TalkTalk has announced further progress today. Nobody at Virgin Media has raised this link with me, and given that Virgin Media is owned by one of the most well-capitalised companies in the world, I cannot see any crossover between the two—and I think it is disingenuous to suggest there is. With that, I hope hon. Members will withdraw the amendments so we can proceed.

[Kevin Brennan]

As I made clear, it is not our intention to put our amendments to a vote at this stage. The debate was extremely interesting, important and useful, despite the Minister’s seeming resentment of having debates that go into the detail of the Bill and despite his remarks about rising early. He should be careful about making such remarks, given that he was late for the first sitting of the Committee.

There is an important issue at stake here: in our proceedings, the Government get their way because they have a majority, but the Opposition have their say. That is the constitutional principle on which we are all here and it is the role that we play. The Minister’s continual grumpiness about that is not helping his cause. I thought it was a useful debate that has revealed and drawn out more clearly some of the Government’s thinking on the timetabling of the repeal of section 73. We are not going to put our amendments to a vote at this stage, but these are matters we might revisit later.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

I call Calum Kerr.

[Matt Hancock]

Hear, hear!

[Calum Kerr]

Oh, the curse of a word of praise from the Minister! I thank him none the less.

I support these two excellent new clauses tabled by Labour Members. I was delighted to hear the Minister say in response to the debate on the last clause, “We strongly support public service broadcasting.” Hot on the heels of that, the Opposition have provided him with an opportunity to put his money where his mouth is and show that he truly does. I think—at least, I hope—that we all support public service broadcasting, but there has been a lot of chat in this place about the PSB funding settlement and about it not encroaching on competition. Let us push beyond that to consider how to support public service broadcasters. Let us find a way to ensure that they maintain their place in an adapting world.

I will touch briefly on both clauses. New clause 14, on the review of listed events, is close to my heart. I note that the football World cup is one of them; I do not know whether we can table an amendment to ensure that Scotland has a chance of getting there—

--- Later in debate ---

Returning to the retransmission charges, it is important we have a level playing field. Virgin will be charged and I believe Sky will not be—there is nothing in the Bill to suggest that Sky will be forced to pay retransmission charges, but perhaps the Minister has something—

[Matt Hancock]

I will come to that later.

[Graham Jones]

Okay. If the Minister has any proposals, can he provide some clarity? There does not appear to be any and there are many people out there raising questions about this.

The guidance seems to suggest there will be no material change to the relationship between Virgin and public sector broadcasters, despite the repeal of section 73 of the 1988 Act, so I look to the Minister for some advice on where we are with that. The Government expect the relationship to be neutral, with no cost transfer. Will the Minister clarify that and confirm that he is not giving with one hand and taking away with another, but is in fact allowing public service broadcasters, such as the BBC licence fee payer, to receive payments for programmes produced by the BBC and the other public service broadcasters?

I want to pick up on the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West about new clause 17 and perhaps add my own thoughts. The Government have taken their eye off the electronic programme guide. I would ask them to cast their eye back over it, as my hon. Friend suggested. Eleven clicks to S4C is just ridiculous, but we all see now—when people are reminded and it is pointed out to them, they say, “Oh yes, that is true.” Sky has put the electronic programme guide on the second tier, where there is Sky Box Office, Sky products and Sky everything else. We are seeing a diminution of the electronic programme guide and Ofcom unable to act in the public interest.

This is important because we are talking about a huge commercial space and, very quietly, Sky has clearly adapted that space for the benefit of the Sky platform. Other people are going to come along and we will see that contested. Companies such as Netflix in particular, which wants to enter the market in an assertive manner, want a big presence and are willing to spend a lot of money. Only in the last week, we have seen the amount of money that it has been suggested that Amazon is spending on Jeremy Clarkson’s latest foray into high-speed petrol-head motoring. Is it £160 million? There is a considerable amount of money in the marketplace from these other organisations and broadcast providers, and we are going to start to see the electronic programme guide being contested. In fact, it is already being contested, as Sky has already snatched the front page of the EPG on its platform.

I raise the following points with the Minister: Ofcom currently seems to be behind the curve on this issue and the guidance needs to be updated. We do not want to see public service broadcasters relegated in any way, shape or form. We do not want to see the design or architecture of the EPG manipulated so that maybe the BBC is number one but somehow Netflix catches people’s eye more prominently, with small letters for the first five and big graphics for some of the more commercial providers, such as Amazon. It is not just about having slots one to five; Ofcom should be mindful of the actual graphic presentation.

We do not want to see adverts creeping into the EPG either, so Ofcom needs to be absolutely clear in the regulations and guidelines about the type of space that the EPG is. The Government should be mindful not only of platform providers such as Sky, but of TV manufacturers, which will come over the hill and see the space. Someone will turn on their television and, after “LG—Life’s Good”, the first thing they will see is Netflix in the top corner, before they even click on an EPG. Technology is moving fast and the presentation of available services must have some framework and clearer guidance from Ofcom, because it is important that we do not end up in a world where public service broadcasters are relegated several clicks away from primacy—ITV needs the commercial return and Channel 4 also has a commercial element and needs the returns on advertising. That scenario should not be allowed, as it would affect the broadcasters as a business, along with their funding model and audience figures and therefore their advertisers and advertising revenue. We absolutely must be clear about what the graphical interface and its parameters should be—no adverts—and also about which broader platforms might seek to enter the market, such as TV manufacturers.

I welcome new clause 17. The Government have a lot of work to do on EPG guidance, because this legislation will go down for the next 10 years and in that time we will see incredible technological advancements, with companies wanting to capture that prime retail space. It is incumbent on the Government to step in, not just to make the situation better and more consistent for the viewer but to protect the public service broadcasters, as not only the licence fee payer but the advertiser on the commercial channels is affected. We have a national interest, therefore, in protecting that space. It is important that the Government revisit the EPG guidelines.

I am interested in hearing the Minister’s comments on my questions, particularly his clarification regarding Sky and the 2003 Act—I cannot find anything on that in the documentation—and also some reassurance on the EPG.

[Matt Hancock]

Terrific! I am delighted to respond. As we know, clause 28 will repeal section 73 of the Copyright, Designs and Patent Act 1988, which currently provides that copyright in a broadcast of public service broadcasting services, and any work in the broadcast, that is retransmitted by cable is not infringed when the broadcast is receivable in the area of the retransmission. In effect, that means that cable TV platforms are not required to provide copyright fees in relation to core public service broadcasting channels. The provision was brought in at the onset of the cable industry in the UK to provide for the industry to compete with terrestrial by providing PSB content. However, that was a long time ago and technology, as everyone has noticed, has moved on a long way.

Last year we consulted on the repeal of section 73, and I am glad that there is cross-party agreement on it. The conclusion that the Government reached, and which has been agreed to by the Committee, is that the section is no longer relevant. There are a wide variety of platforms that ensure that virtually everyone in the UK is able to receive public service broadcasts and, following the completion of the digital switchover in 2012, digital TV services are now available to more than 99% of customers, whether through terrestrial, satellite, cable or fibre platforms. The cable market has moved from a large number of local providers in the 1980s, when section 73 was introduced, to one big one, and it has also gone up massively in scale, from hundreds of thousands to more than 4 million subscribers.

We are satisfied that the objective of ensuring that PSB services are available throughout the UK has been met. Therefore, section 73 is no longer required. Moreover, as my hon. Friend the Member for Selby and Ainsty pointed out earlier, this also closes a loophole, because live streaming services based on the internet are broadcasting TV programmes and relying on section 73 to exploit PSB content by retransmitting channels and selling advertising around the service without any of the benefit flowing to the PSBs. I think we all agree that is wrong, so I am glad there is cross-party support for the change.

Let me respond to some of the questions that were put, looking first at new clause 14. I am a strong believer in the listed events system. Major events such as the Olympic games and the FA cup final draw huge audiences. The listed events regime has worked well. The status of these events, as listed events, boosts them and their broadcast to the nation brings us together. I am delighted that the SNP supports the listed events regime as well. I fear I am going to have to resist the SNP’s suggestion that we should use the listed events regime to ensure that Scotland is always in the World cup finals, in the same way that we cannot legislate for the tide never to come in or the sun never to set, but it is very important and it is close to people’s hearts.

The right to broadcast listed events must be offered to qualifying channels, defined as those that are received without payment by at least 95% of the UK population. Ofcom is responsible for publishing the list of channels that satisfy those criteria. We have no evidence to suggest that recent developments, with more online viewing, will put the BBC or other PSBs at immediate risk of failing to meet these qualifying criteria. I know that concern has been raised, but I have discussed it with the BBC and Ofcom, I have gone into the details, and I am not convinced there is a risk in the near term at all.

[Kevin Brennan]

I did say that, because of the criteria’s increasingly outdated nature, the 95% threshold will probably not be met by any TV channel at some stage during this Parliament. Is the Minister telling the Committee that that is categorically wrong?

[Matt Hancock]

Yes; I disagree with that analysis. Were that to become the problem, then we would need to act, because we support the listed events regime. However, we do not agree with the analysis that the hon. Gentleman has put forward, not only because of the measurement on the existing, most restrictive definition of the 95%, but because the definition of qualifying channels are those that are received without payment. There are many ways to receive a channel without payment, including online, so viewers moving from terrestrial TV to online does not necessarily—and in my view does not—remove them from that 95%.

[Kevin Brennan]

The Minister has made the point, and I thank him for making it categorically: he believes that that will not happen during this Parliament. However, he also said that if it were to happen, the Government would have to act. Is that not the very reason why he should support the new clause? It would give legislative backing to the Government to produce a report to examine what ought to be done in those circumstances.

[Matt Hancock]

No, because I do not think that is going to happen. The hon. Gentleman also raised the question of what we should do if the legislative underpinning of the regime were to collapse. He came up with a specific proposal. I think that the proposal is itself flawed because it was to switch the measure from channels received without payment to those that are viewed, and that changes its nature significantly: from channels that are received, so can be viewed by somebody, to those channels that are viewed, which would be far more restrictive in terms of the channels that could then provide listed events. It is not a surprise to me that it is incumbents who want to make that argument because they are the ones that are watched, as opposed to those that can be watched.

[Kevin Brennan]

The Minister alluded at the end to the fact that we are not making that proposal in our new clause. We were rehearsing that argument during discussion of the new clause. Obviously he does not agree with it, but it is important to put on the record that that particular proposal is not in the new clause. It asks for a report.

[Matt Hancock]

I am grateful for that clarification. We will obviously keep the matter under review. It is important that the listed events scheme continues to operate. I could not be clearer in our assessment of the definition of qualifying channels based on the existing statute. A specific review within 12 months of the legislation’s coming into force is in my view not necessary, but we will keep the situation under close review.

New clause 17 would amend the public service broadcaster prominence review. The hon. Member for Hyndburn made a powerful and eloquent speech with some incredibly good points in it. The new clause would extend the prominence provisions to on-demand services such as catch-up TV and connected TV on-demand menus. The matter was considered in the balance of payments consultation. We have very strong support for S4C and some of the other channels mentioned in the debate, but our conclusion was that we have not seen compelling evidence of harm to PSBs to date, so we decided not to extend the EPG prominence regime at this stage.

In a way, the debate has brought out the challenges in this area. The hon. Gentleman started talking about the description of the graphical representation on an EPG, and the discussion can easily get into acute micromanagement of an EPG when the increasing integration of TV and internet services makes that more rather than less redundant. I therefore caution against an attempt at extreme micromanagement of the interface.

[Graham Jones]

The Minister flags up a cautionary point, but I again ask him a question I asked earlier: if he had a graphical interface with tiny letters that fulfilled its obligations, but at the bottom it said, “Amazon” and “Netflix”—it effectively had some commercial advertising —would he be happy to see that? Would that satisfy his current position? Alternatively, would he reflect and think, “That is not quite right”?

[Matt Hancock]

The hon. Gentleman is a great man who is worried about my happiness, but this is not about my happiness; it is about what is best for public service broadcasting and the PSB compact. My response is that it is for Ofcom to issue guidance on ensuring that the EPG works. It is better done that way, so that it can be proportionate, flexible as technology changes over time and not micromanaging things. The guidelines do that and pull that off. That is why when we considered the proposal as part of the consultation, we decided not to go there.

[Graham Jones]

I welcome the opportunity to engage in the issue, but when the Minister looks at Sky taking over the splash screen and relegating the EPG to the second tier—obviously Ofcom cannot act in that case, or it would have done already—is he happy?

[Matt Hancock]

Again, my happiness is secondary really, but my problem with the proposition being put forward is that trying to define sub-menus and user interfaces in regulation, especially statutory regulation, is incredibly hard. The technological landscape is shifting quickly. It is best left to the Ofcom guidance to answer such questions. We looked into the matter in some detail in the consultation, so I hope that the hon. Gentleman will withdraw his support for the new clause.

[Kevin Brennan]

The Minister is saying that it is up to Ofcom to decide, but is not the point that what we are trying to do here is exactly what Ofcom is proposing?

[Matt Hancock]

No, because it is for Ofcom to issue guidance on linear EPGs. Ofcom is required as a duty to make the system work. Rather than going further down this route, having considered it, we do not want to be over-prescriptive, given the technological changes that are happening. With that, I hope that hon. Members will withdraw their amendment and then vote that clause 28 stand part of the Bill.

[The Chair]

We will, of course, be voting on any new clauses not today but later in our proceedings. Does Mr Brennan have any remarks to make?

[Kevin Brennan]

Yes, briefly. As you say, Mr Streeter, we will come to the new clauses later in the Bill. I do not think that it will necessarily be our intention at this point—we will cogitate further—to push them to a vote, but there are issues here to which we might want to refer on Report. One of my colleagues has pointed out that the Minister did not answer a question about Sky. Rather than making another speech, does he want to intervene during my brief remarks?

[Matt Hancock]

As I said in the discussion of the previous set of amendments, Sky is subject to a different regulatory regime. There are conditional access charges for satellite within that regime, which must be fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory for all channels. We considered that as part of the balance of payments consultation and came to the conclusion that it did not need to be changed, because of the requirement set out in the DPS code.

[Kevin Brennan]

I am grateful to the Minister for saving us time with that helpful intervention.

[Kevin Brennan]

We discussed this issue, and the nature of that regime, earlier today. My observation was that the situation was extremely opaque, which is why we proposed earlier amendments to the Bill to suggest that the whole area should be reviewed—for that very reason. My hon. Friend makes an extremely pertinent point. It will be worth reading his remarks, and those made earlier today by Government and Opposition Committee members, on that point.

When we discussed new clause 14, which deals with listed sporting events, I worried that there is a degree of complacency in the Government. People will have heard what the Minister said about the issue, and we will be interested to hear what others have to say about his response. We should lay down a marker to say that we do not think that the Government are really listening or hearing what we are saying about this subject, and they are not sufficiently attuned to the dangers to listed sporting events. I know that the Minister is a keen and successful sportsman in his jockeying activities, on which I congratulate him. I am sure that he would want to see—

[Matt Hancock]

Not the Grand National, though.

[Kevin Brennan]

National hunt or flat? I cannot remember.

[Matt Hancock]

Flat.

[Kevin Brennan]

He is a flat racing jockey—and, from what I have seen, a very good one—but he should be concerned about the possible future of events such as the Grand National, which, as he rightly said, bring the country together and are meaningful and important cultural events as well as sporting ones.

On new clause 17 and PSB prominence, again, the Minister says that he has not seen compelling evidence of harm, but I think that we supplied him with plenty of compelling evidence of the potential for harm, which is what the Bill is about. It should be about the digital future, as we have said. I take his point about extreme micromanagement—that is valid—but we are not talking about that; we are talking about setting clear parameters to ensure that public service broadcasting prominence remains across all platforms. Although we are unlikely to press the new clause to a vote later, we reserve the right to return to these issues.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 28 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Digital Economy Bill (Third sitting)

Matt Hancock Excerpts

Committee Debate: 3rd sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 13th October 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Thangam Debbonaire]

Q Could you say a bit more about what safeguards are in place for that public service duty and role?

Tony Close: Currently the BBC is still regulated by the BBC Trust. There is a job for us to ensure that there is a framework in place by 3 April or shortly after, to ensure that the BBC is held properly to account. That has many component parts. I suspect that it has a set of metrics. There is an element where you would be looking for consumer feedback on how the BBC is delivering to consumers in their view—whether it is genuinely distinctive or considered to be distinctive by members of the public and whether the audience themselves believe that the BBC is delivering on its obligations and its public purposes.

[The Minister for Digital and Culture (Matt Hancock)]

Q We have had some debate, which you may or may not have followed, on the electronic communication code, and about whether the changes in the Bill, which are designed to reduce the cost of rolling out mobile infrastructure, should go further and mirror the rules around the water industry. I would be interested in your reflections on what the consequences would be, should we make that change.

Lindsey Fussell: Ofcom very much supports the Bill’s provisions on the electronic communications code, because we believe that they will assist with the faster roll-out of mobile infrastructure and its maintenance. We do not have particular expertise to offer on the precise provisions in the Bill, particularly on land valuation. What we are doing is working collaboratively with a very broad range of stakeholders to draw up a code of practice on the way that negotiations should work going forward.

[Matt Hancock]

Thank you; so you do not want to go further on the details, but you are working on implementation.

Lindsey Fussell: I am afraid I do not think I have anything helpful to offer on that.

[Matt Hancock]

Q Okay. The other area where we have had questions is on Ofcom appeals. It would be very interesting to hear your take on why it is necessary to make the changes to the appeals that are set out.

Lindsey Fussell: Yes, of course. As I said to a member of the Committee earlier, Ofcom absolutely welcomes its decisions being challenged. It is actually vital, for an independent regulator, that that happens, because it goes to the very heart of our credibility; but we believe that it is entirely appropriate for us to be held accountable to the same standards as almost every other public authority.

The need for robust challenge clearly needs to be balanced against the need for us to be able to take forward measures such as switching and auto-compensation in a way that is rapid and can meet consumer interests. Our concern with the current arrangements is that while Ofcom has a pretty good record on its success in appeals we are the most appealed-against regulator, and in particular our appeals come from the largest providers with, frankly, the deepest pockets. We want to have an appeal standard that absolutely enables any bad decisions or wrong decisions we take to be overturned, but also enables us to take forward the really important regulation and changes that consumers want, as quickly as possible.

[Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con)]

Q All our constituents are victims of nuisance calls. Do you think the law as it currently stands is sufficient to protect them? What measures in the Bill do you think will offer enhanced protection, and when we are dealing with companies that are out to drive a coach and horses through the law, what measures do you think we can put in place to provide protection for customers? If I could lead you down a path, at the moment, if you want to lodge a complaint against a company you have to have the phone number and the website address. When I have asked nuisance call companies, “Can I have your phone number; can I have your website address?” guess what? They have neither of those things.

Lindsey Fussell: We absolutely recognise that nuisance calls remain a huge concern to consumers. We estimate that consumers in the UK will receive about 4 billion nuisance calls this year. If I sit, as I have, and listen to calls coming into our contact centre, I know how distressing and frightening some of them can be to consumers.

As I mentioned earlier, the provisions in the Bill relate to the powers of the Information Commissioner, relating particularly to direct marketing calls. That forms a substantial proportion of the concerns that I know consumers have, and it is great to see the Information Commissioner being given more power to enforce against companies that break the rules, including companies that either do not have consent, or have very aged consent, if I can put it that way, for those calls to be made.

Ofcom’s specific interest is in silent and abandoned calls, which can be especially frustrating and frightening for more vulnerable consumers, particularly. We believe that the best way—because of the nature of the companies, as you have been saying, that are now making the majority of the calls—is to encourage more network blocking of those calls before they reach the consumer. That is something that we are making good progress on with a number of companies. You may have seen recent announcements from Vodafone in this space.

We also encourage companies to roll out software—and BT, again, is doing so shortly—free of charge to consumers to give consumers more power to block calls themselves. It is a really difficult problem but we are absolutely not complacent about trying to tackle it.

Digital Economy Bill (First sitting)

Matt Hancock Excerpts

Committee Debate: 1st sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 11th October 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Calum Kerr]

Q Mr Williams, do you think that a tactical, on-demand USO only provided by BT can really provide the strategic outcome—a direction toward “gigabit Britain”—that I think we all agree is a matter of when and not if? If we continue to do this in a piecemeal fashion surely all we are going to do is cement the digital divide, rather than close it.

Sean Williams: To get these networks out to as many premises as possible, by as many providers as possible, through competition and commercial market action is exactly the right solution. To get good networks out to everybody, both mobile as well as fixed, it is important that everybody has an incentive to invest. Through competition and commercial investment, we will get to the answer.

[The Minister for Digital and Culture (Matt Hancock)]

Q I welcome the commitment from BT to reach 100% of premises by 2020, but I ask for a point of clarification on language. Mr Williams, you referred in the percentages to “fibre” and, separately, to “fibre to the premises”. Can you confirm that by “fibre” you mean a combination of fibre and copper and that by “fibre to the premises” you mean pure fibre? The use of the term “fibre” reflects statistics that I understand mean fibre to the cabinet, so I find confusing the offer to households being “fibre plus copper”. I would be grateful if you clarified that.

Sean Williams: I am happy to. When I use the term “fibre broadband”, I mean fibre to the cabinet, which is a combination of rolling out fibre further into the network but with copper into the end premises. When I use the term “fibre into the premises” I mean fibre all the way into the building. I apologise for being unclear.

When I say we will deliver fibre broadband, it will largely be, in my view, through a combination of fibre and copper, but we are also very positive about fibre to the premises and typically deploy fibre to the premises in all new building sites and in lots of Broadband Delivery UK areas. We are developing fibre to the premises solutions that are particularly targeted at small and medium-sized enterprises. We have made a commitment that we will get ultrafast broadband speeds, which is both fibre and copper, and also fibre-to-the-premises solutions to 1 million SMEs by 2020. We have heard the prioritisation that the Government have put on getting very good broadband speeds to small and medium-sized enterprises and we have made a commitment we will get that to 1 million of them by 2020 as well.

[Claire Perry]

Q I am conscious of what Baroness Harding said about perhaps not setting a quantum, but do you think there should be a separate quantum for SMEs? One of the challenges we have is that there is not enough. We do not have separate legislation or, indeed, powers for cabling to new business parks. If I may ask a supplementary question, in my experience the issue with the USO is often with the broadband speeds in the household; it is not just a question of getting the cable to the front door or the bricks. What could the process be for dealing with those claims and helping householders realise that that might be a problem?

One final question: we would like the USO to be an average speed, rather than being achieved 15% of the time, or whatever the current average regulations are. What are your views on that? Are you prepared to commit to our offering an average USO of 10 megabits per second?

Baroness Harding: At the risk of being dangerously technical, I think we all try to summarise in the form of speed, but actually consumers and businesses would say that reliability and consistency are every bit as important as speed. The small businesses that are customers of TalkTalk would say, “It’s not the headline speed I need. I need it to work every single second when my customers are using the chip and pin machine in my small corner shop”, for example. So while speed is a useful proxy, it is not perfect.

The Minister gets to the nub of the issue: when you have a proper fibre network that goes all the way to the premises, you have upgrade potential. You just change the card in the rack of computers back at the exchange and you can go from 1G to 100G. You also have a much, much more reliable network. When it rains, water does not get into the copper and it does not stop working.

The small businesses that we talk to are very cross that the fibre-to-the-premises roll-out has missed out a lot of business parks—not necessarily because they want speed, but because they want a reliable service where they can upload as much as they can download and customers can always buy things from them.

I would therefore support being clearer in the detailed regulations that I presume Ofcom would set in specifying the service requirements for small businesses as opposed to consumers.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Can I remind Members and witnesses to be as brief as possible? I call the Minister.

[Matt Hancock]

Q No—I was going to ask for more details on which bits of the Bill could help.

[The Chair]

I will come back to you.

[Kevin Brennan]

Q I remember one of your predecessors in a predecessor company, Mr Butler, explaining to me why they were digging my street up in the 1990s. They basically said, “We are installing a straw to suck money out of people’s houses”, which I think is the best explanation I ever received of what was involved. On the electronic communications code, how can you assure us that its reform will actually benefit consumers principally and not just allow you to keep more of the money that you suck out of people’s houses?

Daniel Butler: The reforms that are envisaged will transform the economics of roll-out. The figures discussed in the previous session were a 40% reduction in the cost of roll-out. The primary way in which that benefits consumers is that that allows us to build to more premises on a commercial basis.

Virgin Media currently plans to build to 4 million premises by 2020. Wayleaves are a considerable line item on the balance sheet for that investment, and also it takes a lot of time to get agreement, so anything we can do to reduce the cost and improve the efficiency of getting those will have the consumer benefit of allowing us to connect up more premises. I mentioned that Government could be more ambitious in this regard. In effect, the Government’s reforms will deal with the worst abuses of the systems—that is communications providers’ exposure to ransom rents—but Ministers and the Secretary of State increasingly talk about broadband being equivalent to a utility and the reforms do not quite go that far. Water companies have the most advantageous wayleave regimes under their statutes. They do not pay what is called in the valuation jargon “consideration” and, as are result, they pay 60% less—these are Government’s figures—than communications providers.

[Matt Hancock]

I think the explanations coming from the witnesses are excellent. I did not have any other questions.

[Nigel Huddleston]

Q Are the switching proposals in the Bill, which make it easier for customers to switch and give them more power and information, a step in the right direction?

David Wheeldon: They clarify Ofcom’s existing powers, so to that extent they are a welcome clarification. We have some concerns about the direction of travel that Ofcom is going in, not least because we see and operate in a market where there is already extensive switching and all the customer satisfaction surveys suggest that the vast majority of customers are happy with it.

What we are worried about is that Ofcom might go down a direction that tries to mandate a certain type of switching between networks that do not have any obvious need or reason to engage with each other. It is one thing in telecoms where you have to exchange customer information and data, but in TV, where you do not have any need to speak to a different TV network or operator, the idea of putting in place a new system where we are required to talk to each other could end up being quite burdensome and bureaucratic.

I hope that, as we engage with Ofcom, we avoid doing that. In the end we want to make this as easy as possible for customers, because that is in all our interests. We compete pretty ferociously with each other on a day-to-day basis, so a system that works for customers is in all our interests. The provisions in the Bill that clarify Ofcom’s role are fine.

[Matt Hancock]

Q Could you remind me what proportion of the market Sky has?

David Wheeldon: In the overall broadband market we are below 40%, I believe. In TV, it is 60%—I am not sure quite what the breakdown between us and other pay TV providers is. We compete not just with Virgin and BT and others but increasingly with Netflix and free-to-air. Many of our customers will go to take a free-to-air package from us. So the market is pretty dynamic and I think that at the moment it seems to be working pretty well for customers.

[Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey) (SNP)]

Q I want to go back to the average speed, which we were talking about earlier. When you provide businesses with average services, and you give them average speed—give them the minimum they need to be average—you are locking them into being average businesses; you are not giving them the opportunity to be more ambitious. How do you square that with a programme of ambition for the 21st century, taking people forward? What do you do to encourage devolved Administrations such as the Scottish Government, and councils, where they want to go further and have faster speeds?

Paul Morris: We have got to figure out a way, and this is going to be a combination of things. We talked about the code earlier; that is part of it. How do you build the network? How do we make that easier? How do we focus on support that, frankly, has been there for more traditional infrastructure? We have talked about some of the other areas, such as how we ensure that Openreach serves its customer base better and has more ambition. That would get you to a point.

As you know, the Scottish Government have been thoughtful in this area. What do we do after that? I know you have got the 100% ambition, and there I think it is a case of a mixture of things. A better Openreach that is more independent, serves its customers better and is more ambitious gets you to a point. You then have either USO or some kind of intervention potentially in some areas where the industry can look at support and how that works across technologies.

So I think it is a combination of commercial roll-out, see how far we get—we will not know that until we reform the market—and then look at what is left and see where we go from there. I agree with you. I note that there is not a speed limit in the Bill and I think we do need to be more ambitious. Of course, we cannot solve this tomorrow, but we need to recognise that the data usage trajectory is upwards and we need to think in those terms. We do not build a little bit of a better railway; we build a much better railway. We need to think like that.

David Wheeldon: I absolutely concur with that. We look at this as a national service provider. We want to sell our TV services to every customer in the country if we can. We are agnostic about the kind of technology that we use, but increasingly using broadband services to do that is the way we are going. Therefore, if we are going to be ambitious, to enable companies like ours to continue to grow, invest and innovate, we need a national solution, and a national solution will depend upon the national network owner, which is Openreach. In the end, all these roads lead back to Openreach. That is why the structure of the industry does matter; the ability to get capital into the industry to invest in the kinds of future networks we need is critical. That is why we have made such a big noise about the structure of the industry and the Ofcom review. We really believe that it matters, not so much as a broadband provider, but as a user of the network. We want to be able to have a national solution.

--- Later in debate ---

[Christian Matheson]

There needs to be,

“clarity over the new system of valuation for site rents that is fair and equitable as well as a robust Code of Practice to ensure landowners, infrastructure providers and mobile phone operators are clear”.

Is there not a danger of conflict between looking after the needs of large landowners to get fair wayleave agreements on their properties and potentially preventing the roll-out of broadband and infrastructure services to other rural residents because we are keeping costs higher to benefit the landowners?

James Legge: I think we recognise that the new communications code must reduce the cost of putting in the infrastructure, both on public and private land, and must also encourage the sharing of masts and access to infrastructure. There is a difference between saying that we will do it and, say, paying a private landowner nothing, and paying them something that is reasonable and fair, taking account of the way in which we treat other utilities. I know that our view differs slightly, though, from some of the other landowning organisations that are focused on land ownership. We are very much focused on delivery to the consumer, but we think it should be fair, equitable and clear.

[Matt Hancock]

Q May I clarify that? You said that the new communication code must do those things. Did you mean by that, that it does do those things and that that is right, or that you do not think it fits what you set out? What you set out is entirely concurrent with the Bill.

James Legge: Yes, and we are supportive of that. We support the fact that we have got to start seeing broadband on the same par as a utility, as opposed to something where there is a premium cost to the provider, which limits provision—

[Matt Hancock]

Q I was seeking clarification on whether you are looking for something more than is in the Bill. You were saying that that is what is in the Bill and it is right that that goes through.

James Legge: Not at this stage.

[Nigel Adams]

Q I suspect that the Bill is not going to be subject to the most detailed discussion around the country. However, as a question to both of you, having had an opportunity to analyse the Bill, if we were all pitching this to our constituents across the country, what do you see as the key benefits for consumers?

Pete Moorey: The telecoms sector needs to catch up with where consumers are. That is part of what the Bill is trying to do: we need to recognise that people increasingly see their mobile phones and broadband as essential items. Yet we know that customer satisfaction is very low and that people are increasingly frustrated about their inability to get a signal or to get the broadband speed they are paying for.

There are critical things in the Bill that will start to bring the telecoms sector kicking and screaming into the 21st century. For me, those elements include switching—I think it is incredible that we do not have provider-led switching in the telecoms sector. Automatic compensation is very important. With water, electricity and gas, if we lose a connection we get a compensation payment, but that is not the case in telecoms. The appeals process, which we have heard a lot about this morning, has had a chilling effect on the regulator’s ability to introduce measures that would both improve competition in the sector and better protect consumers.

The final area, for us, is nuisance calls, which we know are some of the biggest bugbears that people face—they are sick to death with receiving annoying calls and texts. To put the ICO guidance on nuisance calls into statute is another step towards tackling that everyday menace.

James Legge: Yes, I think that switching and compensation are important: it is important to hold the feet of the telecoms companies to the fire. But there is possibly an opportunity in the legislation to empower the consumer. At the moment, we have a sort of opaqueness around data and provision. We do not have address-level data. If I want to decide where I am going to get my mobile or broadband from, I cannot just put in my address and find out that the company that provides the best service is x. I have to sign up to someone. Then I can test the level of my service through their internet connection as a customer.

If there was more transparency, and if people had the information to hand, they would be able to make better choices. The market would also be more competitive for mobile or broadband providers, because if they do not provide the coverage, they will lose customers. It is no good waiting for someone to sign up and then find out that switching is jolly difficult, so customers say, “Well, I’ll just put up with this and complain”. We do that terribly well.

We should be able to say, “No, sorry. You didn’t tell me this. I didn’t have the data. Your service is appalling. I’m switching, and it is easy.” The level of switching at the moment is extremely low. A previous witness suggested that there was general contentment, which is not my experience.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Skidmore]

You were closely integrated into this approach.

Mike Bracken: Of course. The first thing is to recognise the positive sentiment in the Bill. There is much in it to admire and applaud and I believe it builds on some of the sentiment for providing better public services that certainly ran through my time in Government, pressed by various Ministers in the Cabinet Office, one of whom is sitting next to you now.

As I said earlier, I think the concern is not the sentiment and support, but in the lack of detail and the operational change that goes with that. Much of the work done previously, to date, has centred around things like single, canonical sets of data, so that there are accurate datasets about individuals, about place, about location, and that they are used within Government. That sentiment too often flies in the face of Whitehall’s demand to own its own data, or what it perceives to be its own data, in every piece of Government. That leads to the current sharing agreements around Whitehall, which are opaque at best and create friction for our members, friction for members of society and friction for business. It is harder to find accurate data, it adds an economic downside to people dealing with Government. The Bill currently seems to move away from the sentiment of sorting that problem out. It seems to reinforce the primacy of Whitehall’s willingness to share more data in ways that it has been sharing data over time. So while the sentiment of the Bill overall is positive, this area of how data are shared does not seem to be looking at the sort of open registers, those single approaches, that we started to look at in the latter part of the previous Parliament.

[Matt Hancock]

Q Do you agree that those areas in addition that you are looking for are essentially administrative rather than legal changes? That is to say, the Government need to move in that direction, I would argue that they are moving in the direction that you set out, but you would not put that in a Bill; you need to make it happen.

Mike Bracken: Yes. Absolutely, Minister. Too often, there was an assumption that those things would need regulatory or Bill backing. My experience was pretty much 100% that that was not the case; these are largely about administrative and operational management of data across Whitehall and across Departments. Clearly, there are some areas, security being an obvious one, where you need more legal oversight, but primarily it is not so much about a Bill.

[Kevin Brennan]

Q First, I agree with what Jeni said about Citymapper; it has changed my life, it is absolutely fantastic—I actually use the bus now. However, either witness, will the Bill in any way help to avoid another care.data type of scandal?

Jeni Tennison: I will go back to what I was saying around transparency and public trust. For me, the important part of any dealing with private, personal data has to be that we drive towards trust by being open about what is being done with those data, by being transparent about how they are being used, what decisions are being made with them, whom they are being shared with and under what circumstances. Those principles of having openness around the handling of personal data are what will drive public trust in their use. We are in a very difficult space here between trying to balance the right to privacy of an individual with the public good we can get from the use of data. It is a fuzzy and difficult one, one we are going to be working through for many years, but having transparency and openness about it enables us to have an informed debate about where we are making that balance.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Skidmore]

Q The research power for data sharing, as presented, has been welcomed by many academics and civil society groups as a means of unlocking data for research for public benefit. Looking particularly at that data sharing with non-public bodies, do you recognise the benefits of that power? In terms of your point about communicating the value of the Bill, we have the research power and other things. Looking at vulnerable groups, such as troubled families, we have other powers that are there for public benefit. How do you feel we should express that public benefit?

Jeni Tennison: The benefits of each of the individual pieces of the Bill are different kinds of benefits to different kinds of people. I think they need to be separated out in some ways and not be muddled up together. That is one of the challenges with the Bill.

[Matt Hancock]

Q Can you set out what some of those might be?

Jeni Tennison: The benefits?

[Matt Hancock]

Yes.

Jeni Tennison: The research power enables us to provide data to researchers and academics who can then draw broad conclusions about, for example, the state of our economy, or who can give more accurate and up-to-date information about the way in which we are functioning as a society in general. Having those is of great benefit to society. The pieces around fuel poverty and so on are more specific benefits to both individuals who would be touched by that and to the efficiency of the public sector.

[Matt Hancock]

Q And in terms of the data measures to tackle fraud?

Jeni Tennison: I have not looked at the detail of the individual measures for those kinds of benefits.

[Louise Haigh]

Q Is the point not that these benefits cannot be achieved unless the risks are tackled head-on, which is exactly what happened with the care.data issue in the last Parliament? That health data could not be shared because the public did not trust the Government or insurers with that risk. I worked in insurance at the time and that came as quite a blow. Is the point not that the Government need to take on the issues around transparency and trust in this Committee? Mike, on your point about data access, do you think Government are currently geared up to allow that, rather than bulk data sharing?

Mike Bracken: “Government” is a very broad organisation. There are promising moves around registers of data and around reinstating an address register. I do not know quite where that is now. There was a promising move but that now seems to be a little on the backburner—I am not sure. The point is that that question needs to be asked to 20-plus Government Departments and more than 300 agencies and non-departmental public bodies, each of which has a different answer. It is hard to summarise where “government” is at any one point without any open standards between those and without any clear framework under which Government data are already being shared.

Digital Economy Bill (Second sitting)

Matt Hancock Excerpts

Committee Debate: 2nd sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 11th October 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Nigel Huddleston]

Q In terms of skills and resources, are you confident you will be able to get the right people in to do the job properly? I am sure that it is quite a disturbing job in some cases.

David Austin: Yes. We already have people who have been viewing pornographic content for a number of years. We may well need to recruit one or two extra people, but we certainly have the expertise and we are pretty confident that we already have the resources. We have time between now and the measures in the Bill coming into force to ensure that we have a fully effective system up and running.

[The Minister for Digital and Culture (Matt Hancock)]

Q I just want to put on the record that we are delighted that the BBFC has signed the heads of agreement to regulate this area. I cannot think of a better organisation with the expertise and the experience to make it work. What proportion of viewed material do you think will be readily covered by the proposed mechanism in the Bill that you will be regulating the decision over but not the enforcement of?

David Austin: I am not sure that I understand the question.

[Matt Hancock]

Q I am thinking about the scale of the problem—the number of views by under-18s of material that you deem to be pornographic. What proportion of the problem do you think the Bill, with your work, will fix?

David Austin: So we are talking about the amount of pornography that is online?

[Matt Hancock]

Q And what is accessed.

David Austin: Okay. As you all know, there is masses of pornography online. There are 1.5 million new pornographic URLs coming on stream every year. However, the way in which people access pornography in this country is quite limited. Some 70% of users go to the 50 most popular websites. With children, that percentage is even greater; the data evidence suggests that they focus on a relatively small number of sites.

We would devise a proportionality test and work out what the targets are in order to achieve the greatest possible level of child protection. We would focus on the most popular websites and apps accessed by children—those data do exist. We would have the greatest possible impact by going after those big ones to start with and then moving down the list.

[Matt Hancock]

Q So you would be confident of being able to deal with the vast majority of the problem.

David Austin: Yes. We would be confident in dealing with the sites and apps that most people access. Have I answered the question?

[Matt Hancock]

Q Yes. Given that there is a big problem that is hard to tackle and complicated, I was just trying to get a feel for how much of the problem you think, with your expertise and the Bill, we can fix.

David Austin: We can fix a great deal of the problem. We cannot fix everything. The Bill is not a panacea but it can achieve a great deal, and we believe we can achieve a great deal working as the regulator for stages 1 to 3.

[Louise Haigh]

Q My question follows on neatly from that. While I am sure that the regulation will tackle those top 50 sites, it obviously comes nowhere near tackling the problems that Mr Wardle outlined, and the crimes, such as grooming, that can flow from those problems. There was a lot of discussion on Second Reading about peer-to-peer and social media sites that you have called “ancillary”. No regulation in the world is going to stop that. Surely, the most important way to tackle that is compulsory sex education at school.

Alan Wardle: Yes. In terms of online safety, a whole range of things are needed and a whole lot of players. This will help the problem. We would agree and want to work with BBFC about a proportionality test and identifying where the biggest risks are to children, and for that to be developing. That is not the only solution.

Yes, we believe that statutory personal, social and health education and sexual relationships education is an important part of that. Giving parents the skills and understanding of how to keep their children safe is also really important. But there is a role for industry. Any time I have a conversation with an MP or parliamentarian about this and they have a child in their lives—whether their own, or nieces or nephews—we quickly come to the point that it is a bit of a nightmare. They say, “We try our best to keep our children safe but there is so much, we don’t know who they are speaking to” and all the rest of it.

How do we ensure that when children are online they are as safe as they are when offline? Of course, things happen in the real world as well and no solution is going to be perfect. Just as, in terms of content, we would not let a seven-year-old walk into the multiplex and say, “Here is ‘Finding Nemo’ over here and here is hard core porn—off you go.”

We need to build those protections in online so we know what children are seeing and to whom they speaking and also skilling up children themselves through school and helping parents. But we believe the industry has an important part to play in Government, in terms of regulating and ensuring that spaces where children are online are as safe as they can be.

--- Later in debate ---

[Calum Kerr]

Q So that is a, “Yes, if possible, please.” It is okay; do not answer that. You have already answered. My final quick question is this. Although this is not retrospective, is there any case for excluding existing sites, if this is really about building out more network, in terms of the valuation element, given that a lot of those sites are actually on publicly owned land?

Scott Coates: There is certainly a difference in the substance of a transaction when you are approaching a farmer, a sports club, a university or whatever and asking for access to build a new piece of infrastructure where there is new coverage, and you are having that negotiation in the context of a new communications code that has tighter reference points on pricing. You will have more leverage for that conversation. You will still end up, I believe, paying them a rate way in excess of what zero value would be because that is just how you have those conversations, but it will be less than what is paid today, that is for sure, because you have got this new reference point. The substance of that is very different from the substance of a voluntary agreement you entered into with a firm six or seven years ago and that comes up for renewal in two to three years and the infrastructure is already there.

I think it is important that we have a robust set of tools as an industry but, as I mentioned earlier, it is equally if not more important that the industry acts responsibly and avoids behaviour such as forcing situations where they need a new compulsory purchase tool, even though they have already got access today. There is definitely a way of engaging on existing sites that should be a bit different from new sites, as part of a package of trying to maintain the voluntary support of the land and property sector for our industry.

[Matt Hancock]

Q Could you set out in more detail—you have already gone into this a bit—about what you mean when you say that the code should include land owned by the infrastructure providers but not the apparatus, and the distinction there in the written evidence?

Scott Coates: It comes back to this. Under UK property law, anything that affixes to land could be considered land. At the moment, the code effectively is to regulate land coming into the telecom sector, not to regulate the relationships between telecoms companies. It carves out from land the apparatus.

I am advised that there is a risk of ambiguity. That is probably the best way I could describe it. It may be challenged down the line. This is an evolving and dynamic industry where we don’t exactly know the physical things we are going to be deploying in future. There is a risk that some of the things we do might receive a challenge that it is land not apparatus. I do not know.

Is a new runway at Heathrow infrastructure or land because it sits on top of land? Is the national grid transmission network an infrastructure asset or land because it sits on land? It is a fairly technical point. Like all these things, once the lawyers are running around looking at them, they will find concerns.

All we are saying is that we invest over 20 to 30-year horizons. The more clarity that can be provided is helpful. We acknowledge and clearly appreciate the intent behind Government policy to protect investment and passive infrastructure but more clarity around that will only help the investability of what we do.

[Matt Hancock]

Q Thanks. I am also grateful for what you said about the team at DCMS, who will have picked up on your kind words I am sure. I wanted to follow up on 5G. You talked earlier about the 5G roll-out. This is a bigger-picture question. What do think the Government need to be doing now to ensure that we are in the lead when it comes to the roll-out of 5G?

Scott Coates: People must be exhausted with hearing about the challenges with Openreach and what can be done there. The key thing is to help facilitate our competitive market for infrastructure. So 5G has the ability to be driven by the mobile operators, by the fibre players, by independent infrastructure companies. If you look at the US, half the small cells that power 4G and 5G are actually going in by independent infrastructure players; mobile operators as well as fibre players are in there, too.

It comes down to helping to facilitate as competitive a market as possible. We have started deploying infrastructure in at least one city in the UK: 4G initially, but it will lead to 5G. We would love to be able to get a competitive basis of access, or any access, to BT ducts. We cannot do that, despite the fact that they can access every single piece of our infrastructure.

That is one thing. The other thing is around the planning permissions for affixing equipment to lampposts. We are working in Aberdeen and I have to say that we have had a fantastically positive experience with the local council, which has been amazing and very supportive in everything we have been trying to do there. That experience is not shared across other councils in the UK.

[Matt Hancock]

Q Thanks very much. Dr Whitely, would you say that, done right and should the codes come out right, the clauses in the Bill have the potential to improve public services through better use of data?

Dr Whitley: Absolutely. You could have a side question about whether, for example, focusing on subsidies from energy providers is the best way to deal with fuel poverty, but in terms of that specific focus—if it is done right—then, absolutely. Our concern is that we just do not have the detail as to whether or not it is going to be done right. That has been the frustration over the last three years.

[Drew Hendry]

Q I want to talk about the spectrum licensing issue. We spent a lot of time in earlier sessions talking about the minimum average speed, particularly for SMEs, as being 10 megabits per second and whether or not that was ambitious for the future.

You talked about the outside-in licensing regime that could be possible—and is possible in other countries since it is being deployed, particularly for new tech and for the 700Mhz and the 5G licensing that will come. If that approach is adopted by the UK Government in terms of licensing, is it your belief that it would make that inequality almost go away and that it would deliver much greater equality across the pace of speeds for people to access business and other methods that they need?

Scott Coates: If a policy objective is to ensure that rural areas get a high quality mobile signal, then forcing the industry to invest in rural areas—and effectively funding that by allowing them to pay less money for the licences that they acquire—is the most efficient way to deliver that. It would have positive outcomes, for sure.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nigel Huddleston]

Q I am not sure whether we got a clear answer there. The Commons Library published a briefing, which includes statistics from an Ipsos MORI survey that you have probably seen before. The things that get public support are things such as:

“Creating a DNA database of cancer patients…Using data from electronic travel cards…to improve the scheduling of buses or trains…Using police and crime data to predict and plan for crimes that might take place in future”.

There is a clear public upside for some of the most vulnerable and hurt people in society; are we ever going to reach a point where you are satisfied with the use of data?

Renate Samson: You took evidence this morning from two witnesses whom you asked a very similar question, and I support the answers that they gave. People are happy to share data if they understand why and are asked. I believe that the answer you were given earlier referred to the individual. If you ask me whether I am happy to share my data to cure cancer, I go away and I make the decision about whether or not I am happy to do that. As you have pointed out, the majority of people are probably going to say, “Yes, of course.” Big Brother Watch has no desire to restrict that. We are asking for information that we feel is lacking from part 5 of the Bill. We are asking for information for the individual so that they can give their consent based on proper guidance. That is going to be a key part of data protection law going forward.

This is about the way the questions are being asked. Similar questions have been asked throughout the day. We are not trying to say no. We have never said no. We are just trying to say, “Please present us with as much information as possible, so that we can see how.”

Jim Killock: It is really in the interests of Government to get this right, because in the long term it is a matter of trust. We know that accidents happen. If at least the safeguards are in place and as many accidents are avoided as possible, and if people are not left embarrassed at either data leaks or programmes that turn out to be intrusive or prejudicial against people, then you have won. That really was the purpose of the open policy process: to ensure that the risks were understood so that the Government could legislate on the basis of dealing with the complex risks rather than heading straight into a situation where they got a huge backlash and/or stored up problems for the future.

Renate Samson: May I add something quickly? The first line of Big Brother Watch’s submission says that we support data sharing across Government. I want to be very clear on that.

My second point is about individuals doing well out of this. The Bill, well, the factsheets accompanying the Bill, refer to wellbeing. I direct you all to the Supreme Court’s review of the named persons scheme in Scotland, where it was deemed that wellbeing was not a high enough bar—it did not meet the bar of “vital”, which the Data Protection Act requires. We want to do this properly so that people can benefit, but let us ensure that it is proper—that is not perfect, but the best it can possibly be.

[Matt Hancock]

Q A couple of questions. Would you be happy to share your blood type data to help cure cancer?

Renate Samson: I do not even know what my blood type is. To answer your question, I don’t know. I would have to give it serious consideration, just as I would seriously consider whether I would be prepared to donate organs after I die. It is not something to which I can give you a snap answer.

[Matt Hancock]

Q Okay. You referred to the open policy-making process, which was a big process with lots of people involved, and the large majority are content with that process. Have you read all the individual responses to the consultation?

Renate Samson: No, because I do not know where they are published. I looked for them but I could not find them.

[Matt Hancock]

Q They are on the internet, so you are very welcome to have a look at them.

Renate Samson: My understanding is that I would have to go into every single organisation’s website separately to look at them. They are not collated on the consultation’s website itself.

[Matt Hancock]

Q No, they are all published online.

Renate Samson: On the consultation’s website itself?

[Matt Hancock]

Q They are all published online. In an earlier exchange, you talked about the broad purposes of the Bill and the problem with parliamentary scrutiny of those purposes. I would just like to understand a bit more about what you meant.

Renate Samson: Sorry. Could you repeat that?

[Matt Hancock]

Q In an earlier exchange with Louise, you talked about the broad purposes of the Bill and how they are defined. You said that those purposes are very broad, and I think you said something like, “and therefore it can mean whatever the Government wants it to mean”. I do not understand that, because any sharing of data must be for purposes very specifically set out, for instance supporting troubled families and supporting families in fuel poverty. I think it would be very hard to be against those goals.

Renate Samson: Forgive me, I do not recall that being quite as you have said; I know that Dr Whitley said something very similar to what you just said. Our concern is that I cannot give an answer, because I do not feel as though the Bill has defined clearly what data sharing is or what are personal data. I cannot give an answer without being able to understand what the Government intend to do with regards to data sharing. Troubled families and the retuning of televisions are not included in the Bill, they are referred to in the factsheet accompanying the Bill.

[Matt Hancock]

Q They are referred to in secondary legislation, which will be scrutinised by Parliament.

Renate Samson: I feel—I can only say how I and Big Brother Watch feel—that having looked through the Bill in great detail, we have more questions than answers. If the codes of practice had been published, it might not have been necessary for me to be sitting here, because I would probably know exactly what is the intention. However, based on what has been published so far, I do not feel that it is clear.

Jim Killock: Future secondary legislation is quite a weak way of Parliament safeguarding a process like this, because essentially you then need to ensure that civil society, Parliament and everyone make sure that all the relevant safeguards are included in each statutory instrument.

[Matt Hancock]

Q No, the safeguards are in the Bill. It is the purposes that are in the statutory instruments. It is interesting—

Jim Killock: I do not think that the safeguards are in the Bill.

Renate Samson: Could you explain where they are and what they look like? I cannot see them other than the reference to the misuse of data, and we absolutely support the proposal that those guilty of that could be subject to a prison sentence.

[Matt Hancock]

Q Okay. I want to refer to another point that I did not understand. You said that the problem with the Bill was that it referred to RIPA and the Data Protection Act 1998.

Renate Samson: Because that is current legislation.

[Matt Hancock]

Q But what exactly would you propose?

Renate Samson: My concern, and this is not a telling off, is that a large chunk of RIPA will no longer be applicable by the end of year when the Investigatory Powers Bill comes in, and the Data Protection Act is about to be replaced with the general data protection regulations. Of course it cannot say that on the face of the Bill and none of the supporting documentation even refers to those two pieces of legislation.

[Matt Hancock]

Q It just seems a totally odd point, because the Investigatory Powers Bill is not yet law and, as you can see from the screen, it is being debated in the Lords today. GDPR is not in domestic law yet.

Renate Samson: We were trying to be “assistive”—if that is a word—in that there are elements of the Bill about which not just Big Brother Watch but other individuals and organisations are concerned that if it passes, when the general data protection regulations come in, it will not adhere to that law. It was merely a note of what is coming down the line so we have legislation that has longevity.

[Matt Hancock]

Q I do not think it is possible to legislate on the basis of other legislation that has not yet passed.

Jim Killock: GDPR is passed; it is just not implemented.

[The Chair]

Thank you to our two witnesses. Thanks very much indeed for your evidence. We release you.

Examination of Witnesses

Sarah Gold, Chris Taggart and Paul Nowak gave evidence.

[The Chair]

Q We will now hear oral evidence from Projects by IF, OpenCorporates and the TUC. We have three witnesses, so, colleagues, could we have more concise questions and I am sure concise and expert answers? Could the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record?

Chris Taggart: My name is Chris Taggart. I am the CEO and co-founder of OpenCorporates, which is the largest open database of companies in the world.

Paul Nowak: My name is Paul Nowak I am the deputy general secretary of the TUC. We represent 52 affiliated unions who in turn represent about 5.7 million workers.

Sarah Gold: I am Sarah Gold, director and founder of Projects by IF: a design studio that helps companies understand privacy and security by making products and services that empower people.

[Matt Hancock]

Thank you very much for coming. I want to put on the record something relating to what happened at the end of the last session. For anyone who is interested and has not yet had the chance to find the responses to the consultation on data sharing, they are available on gov.uk/government/consultations/better-use-of-data-in-government. All the responses to the consultation are there.

[The Chair]

We are better informed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Louise Haigh]

Q As you say, Mr Shah, for Government data sharing to work requires public trust, and digital government and the use of your statistics absolutely requires trust that the Government will handle data with due purpose and cause.

Hetan Shah: Another thing is that the UK Statistics Authority is directly accountable to Parliament, not the Government. That actually makes the statistics and research strand more accountable compared with other parts of the Bill. I remind you of that, which is very important.

[Matt Hancock]

Q I would be interested if you could explain and put on the record some of the consequences you see of having this Bill and the underlying secondary legislation on the statute book. What impact will that have on the areas in which you are experts?

Professor Sir Charles Bean: The key thing is that it greatly improves the gateways that enable the Office for National Statistics to use administrative data—tax data and the like—in the construction of official economic statistics. We are well off the pace compared with many other countries. Scandinavian countries, Canada, the Irish and the Dutch make very heavy reliance on administrative data and only use surveys to fill in the gaps. Here, the Office for National Statistics is essentially an organisation that turns the handle, sending out 1.5 million paper forms a year and processing those. Essentially, you are acquiring the same information again that you have already got in some other part of the public sector, where the information is being collected for other purposes.

The key gains here I see as twofold. First, because you access something close to the universe of the sample population rather than just a subset, which would normally be the case with a survey, you potentially get more accurate information. It is potentially also more timely, which for economic policy purposes is important.

The other side of the coin is that by enabling you to cut back on the number of surveys you do, there is a cost gain, which I should say would probably not mainly be a gain to the ONS, because they have to do the processing of the administrative data, but a gain to the businesses and households who are currently spending time filling in forms that they would not need to do if more use was made of administrative data.

[Matt Hancock]

Q Mr Shah, what do you see as the impact of the data sharing clauses?

Hetan Shah: I completely agree with Charlie Bean that we are really in danger of being left behind compared with where other countries are on this agenda. The European statistics peer review, which happened last year, said that this was the key weakness in our statistical system. If you look at bodies like New Zealand, Finland and Canada, they all have this ability to access, so we have got to have it. We are spending £500 million on the census and you have got a lot of that data that you could be using through administrative data.

Similarly, on inflation, which is a critical economic indicator, at the moment we send out people with clipboards to take price points of 100,000 items in 140 locations around the country every month, but there is scanner data that tells you the price that people paid. This could really revolutionise. It is not statistics for statistics’ sake; it is to answer the questions that parliamentarians and policy makers have on issues about social mobility and productivity. For all these questions you are asking yourselves, we need the data. And if we are criticising the ONS about not being quick enough, we need to give them the powers to be quicker.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Chris Skidmore)]

Q In terms of the provisions in the Bill on sharing data for research purposes, could you shed a bit more light on how that will benefit the wider research community? I was also wondering what the immediate priorities will need to be for the UK Statistics Authority as the accrediting body for the infrastructure provided by the research powers in the Bill.

Hetan Shah: The Bill creates a permissive power and it really streamlines what at the moment is quite a complex legal environment for researchers accessing Government data. This makes it much clearer that if a researcher meets a set of conditions—the research is in the public interest, the researcher is accredited and it will use the research in a safe haven, as it were, and so on—they are able to access that Government data.

We gave some case studies in our evidence of research that is obvious, such as what affects winter mortality and understanding the productivity gap. Those are questions that researchers want to investigate, but they cannot get hold of the data from Government Departments. To be fair to the Government, there is concern from their side about handing over data when the legal framework is not clear enough. I think this process will really streamline that.

One caveat is that it is slightly odd that health data are out of scope. Most of the biggest concerns that researchers have are in trying to build the relationship between survey data and, often, the health outcomes in certain areas. I understand the reasoning behind this: because of care.data there were some concerns. Health is very important. Our view is that the Bill should build in the scope for health data and then allow for future legislation to say how that will be dealt with, in particular once Fiona Caldicott, the national data guardian, has consulted on her framework, which is happening right now.

Professor Sir Charles Bean: I would endorse a lot of that. I should say that in Canada, where I spent some time talking to Statistics Canada in the course of doing my review, they have exactly this model. There are clearly defined criteria under which researchers can get access, with a sort of prescribed laboratory where they can use it. I think there is something like 30 requests a year to use information, so it is quite heavily used.

Certainly when I was talking to people here during the statistics review, the issue was raised during the consultation process by people such as the Institute for Fiscal Studies, who wanted access to the microdata to be able to study the impact of tax structure on decisions and so forth. The difficulty of getting that microdata inhibited good research. I am sure the demand is there.