Digital Economy Bill (Second sitting)

Drew Hendry Excerpts

Committee Debate: 2nd sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 11th October 2016 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

Colleagues and members of the public, welcome to our second evidence session on the Digital Economy Bill. Before we get under way and introduce our first set of witnesses, a number of colleagues wish to declare an interest.

[Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey) (SNP)]

I do not have any direct interests, but for full transparency I draw the Committee’s attention to my share ownership in Teclan Ltd, which is in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.

[Nigel Huddleston (Mid Worcestershire) (Con)]

Again for full transparency, prior to becoming an MP I worked for Google, in which I have a small share interest at the moment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Matt Hancock]

Q Thanks very much. Dr Whitely, would you say that, done right and should the codes come out right, the clauses in the Bill have the potential to improve public services through better use of data?

Dr Whitley: Absolutely. You could have a side question about whether, for example, focusing on subsidies from energy providers is the best way to deal with fuel poverty, but in terms of that specific focus—if it is done right—then, absolutely. Our concern is that we just do not have the detail as to whether or not it is going to be done right. That has been the frustration over the last three years.

[Drew Hendry]

Q I want to talk about the spectrum licensing issue. We spent a lot of time in earlier sessions talking about the minimum average speed, particularly for SMEs, as being 10 megabits per second and whether or not that was ambitious for the future.

You talked about the outside-in licensing regime that could be possible—and is possible in other countries since it is being deployed, particularly for new tech and for the 700Mhz and the 5G licensing that will come. If that approach is adopted by the UK Government in terms of licensing, is it your belief that it would make that inequality almost go away and that it would deliver much greater equality across the pace of speeds for people to access business and other methods that they need?

Scott Coates: If a policy objective is to ensure that rural areas get a high quality mobile signal, then forcing the industry to invest in rural areas—and effectively funding that by allowing them to pay less money for the licences that they acquire—is the most efficient way to deliver that. It would have positive outcomes, for sure.

[Drew Hendry]

Q So it would achieve that aim, in your view, and it would to a great extent future-proof the need to go to that level of where you are going from 10 megabits per second to a higher level, and then a higher level again. Is that correct?

Scott Coates: Yes. The industry invests in order to stay competitive in areas where the market is working, and—where the licences oblige them—to invest in areas where the market is not working. The infrastructure needed to support some of these new services needs to be high bandwidth to support that, which will then support the uplift into the future in quality and speed of service.

[The Chair]

Two more questions to this set of witnesses.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

A clear answer.

Paul Nowak: If I could start on a positive and then give you a couple of areas where I think the Bill could be strengthened, the universal service obligation is something we would support. I note the discussion on Second Reading that 10 megabits per second is just a starting point. If you want a digital economy that is fit for the future you need to go well beyond that, but the universal service obligation is welcome. Some of the points in clause 4 are important, in terms of protections for musicians and other creative performers. Useful suggestions were made on Second Reading about how some of those provisions could be strengthened, such as ensuring online providers are accountable for any illegal pirated materials that they host and making sure the Government are prepared to step in if voluntary approaches to those sorts of issues fail. That would be a positive set of issues.

I have concerns about the interface between the Bill and the BBC. I know that the NUJ—which is one of our affiliates—is particularly concerned about the role of Ofcom as a potential regulator of the BBC. I am particularly concerned about the BBC taking on responsibility for TV licences for over-75s, not just in terms of the budgetary implications for the BBC but in terms of the BBC effectively taking responsibility for a key part of our social security system.

There are some positives, and the one I would draw out first and foremost is the universal service obligation. No matter what job someone does or where they live, having access to decent high-speed broadband is increasingly essential.

Sarah Gold: I agree with the overall sentiment of the Bill—that having better access to data and to the right infrastructure can lead to better services and a more open society. One of the details I think is good is the significant consequences for individuals should they be part of data misuse. That is really necessary and I see that as a positive step.

[Drew Hendry]

Q Sarah Gold has given us a really good example of how we could approach terms and conditions in a different way. As somebody who actually went through the Apple iPad terms and conditions three days ago I can tell you it is a mind-numbing experience, so I have great sympathy with that view. What examples can we take into account from other countries that are dealing with these issues as the Bill goes forward? My question for Paul Nowak is what is required to protect workers’ rights with the onset of new, disruptive technologies?

Sarah Gold: In terms of other countries, that is not something I am an expert in. I know that Estonia’s e-citizenship cards can be used as a form of identity across many services, which is certainly helpful. There is an emerging question about what forms of identity individuals, particularly those who are less affluent, will be able to access. That is increasingly becoming a design problem. My work and work at projects by IF is more focused at the moment on UK-based companies and how they approach different forms of consent. We are thinking about privacy through a design lens. We are thinking about the minimum viable data that a service needs to operate and how we can display information in a simple, readable way so people can understand what they are giving away and why, and also get back shared insights. I can speak about some of the emerging trends in technology, such as general transparency and certificate of transparency, which I think have very interesting applications, and about how we can begin to see better forms of consent and permissions across the services. Unfortunately, I am not an expert on other countries.

[The Chair]

Thank you. Mr Nowak is an expert, I am sure.

Paul Nowak: I have maybe three things to say. First, going back to the point I made before, we should absolutely clarify some of the issues about employment status. I do not think it is acceptable that a multinational corporation can hide behind an app or say, “You’re employed by an algorithm.” It needs to be recognised that it does not matter whether you are getting your work via an app; you are still an employee. If you were a small building contractor, you could not get away with claiming that the person who works for you day in and day out is an independent contractor. HMRC would be down on you like a ton of bricks. I think you need to tackle those issues.

There is a set of issues about what I call sectoral approaches. We know that these new disruptive technologies have an impact across whole sectors. I mentioned parcels delivery. It is no longer the default that the man or woman who delivers your parcel is directly employed by Royal Mail and drives a Royal Mail vehicle. They could be “self-employed” and driving their own vehicle. They may be doing two or three different jobs. There is an argument that we should be thinking about how we bring together players right across a sector at the sectoral level, involving employers, new entrants, trade unions, the Government and others, to think about issues to do with not just employment regulation but skills.

I think it flags up a set of interesting issues about having an employee voice at every level. It is very welcome that the Prime Minister has raised the issue of workers on boards. I think that the value of having an employee voice from the shop floor all the way up is important. I note that, on Second Reading, Huw Merriman made the point that the BBC is a good place to start—the new BBC board can have employee representation. Ensuring that there is an effective employee voice, by whatever means somebody is employed, is important. Crucially, that is about social partnership and dialogue, and engaging workers and unions in thinking about what the best form of that employee voice is and how we ensure that people are not exploited in a particular sector.

Chris Taggart: To pick up on something that Sarah said, the truth is that we live in a data world these days. We cannot move from one side of the street to the other without interacting with data. Everything we do—every phone call we make, every website we visit, every time we use a smartphone—is about interacting with data. Unfortunately, individual citizens are increasingly the products—the data—so we really need to be thinking about what citizens’ rights look like in a data-centric world in which the data could be held anywhere.

It is about not just the legal rights, but the effective rights. One of the things that companies such as Google are doing is disintermediating. Sometimes you may have local monopolies, but you may end up with one global monopoly. Who owns the information from smart meters, and so on? The person who pays the electricity bill, the electricity company, the Government or some third party that can see when you turned on the lights, when you went to bed and those sorts of thing? We really need to be thinking about what rights, abilities and agency comes with being a citizen in the modern world. I think that means having access to the data we need—official registers—and licences that actually work for us, and having a critical eye on some of the emerging global power structures of data.

Paul Nowak: That point about data throws up some profound questions for the employer-employee relationship. For example, it is entirely reasonable for TfL to want to know where their buses are at any given moment of the day or night, but it is less reasonable for an employer to access information about whether or not I turn on my phone at seven o’clock or eight o’clock, or about where I might happen to be outside normal working hours. That speaks to the need for the Government to think about how you facilitate and encourage employers and employees to reach reasonable agreement about the use of data. What is the line? It is going to be different in different sectors and different jobs, but the important thing is that there is a shared understanding of what data are collected, what they are used for and how they might be used. I suspect that in a lot of workplaces that is just not a live conversation.

Sarah Gold: Also, who in the workplace has permission to access that information? That is certainly not clear on the face of the Bill, which suggests that any sharing between civil servants would be okay. That really makes me feel quite scared.