Munitions Workers

Matt Hancock Excerpts

Tuesday 26th March 2013 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Skills (Matthew Hancock)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I join the many others who have spoken in congratulating the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) on securing a debate on such an important subject. He has a keen interest in this issue, which he has expressed over a number of years on behalf of many of his constituents. I am grateful for the work that he and the chairman of the all-party group have done.

It is worth recognising not only the cross-party nature of the debate—there have been contributions from both sides of the House—but the fact that there have been contributions from almost all parts of the UK. We have heard from those representing the south and the north of England, the midlands, Wales and Scotland, so this really is a matter for the whole United Kingdom.

It is almost unnecessary to say that the production of munitions was essential to winning the war. Hundreds of thousands of women were drafted into armaments works and assembly plants across Britain to keep the armed forces supplied and to free men to fight on the front line. As we have heard from almost everybody who has spoken, many of these workers were killed, maimed or injured in industrial accidents or air raids, as the Luftwaffe tried to halt the production of supplies. That in itself demonstrates how vital the work was to the war effort.

The hon. Gentleman spoke with lyrical eloquence about the blood, toil, tears and sweat of not only those on the front line, but the munitions workers and, indeed, the munitionettes, who ensured an uninterrupted supply of munitions to the front. Nobody can fight or defend themselves and their country without munitions. About 2 million people took part in the production of munitions, and we have heard of the Aycliffe Angels and the Roses of Swynnerton, but there are no doubt many other such groups across the country. People were uprooted, some lost their lives and the lives of others were irreparably altered by injury and by their work. Their contribution should be remembered and understood by this generation.

The Government recognise and appreciate the courage and fortitude of all those who worked in munitions factories in the second world war to supply our armed forces. Photographs in our history books remind us of the endless lines of munitions that were produced. We have heard again of the huge impact of this work on the social fabric, with women going to work in factories often for the first time. That was the case in my family: my grandmother took up work for the first time in that period and never gave up the habit afterwards. The same thing happened across the country, and it resulted in a permanent change in the social fabric. Women made a great advance in the work force; it was a necessary advance, although work is still needed today to complete it.

During the war, factories were the responsibility of the Ministry of Supply, a predecessor of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. That is why replying to the debate falls to my Department. In a sense, as the Minister for Skills, I am the Minister for Labour Supply, to use older terminology. As the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South said, answers need to be worked out to complicated questions about the potential formal recognition of munitions workers. There is the question of numbers: there could be tens of thousands of people still living who worked in munitions factories in the second world war. That does not include those who worked in factories involved in closely linked activities that were vital to the war effort, such as producing airframes, ships and boats, vehicles—tanks have been mentioned—and uniforms. The war effort could not have proceeded without any of those.

As has been mentioned, the disruption to employment in the war years, the time that has elapsed since and the necessary secrecy of the work make it harder still to identify all those who were involved. Manufacturing of equipment for our armed forces was spread throughout the UK’s extant manufacturing base, and many businesses that would not obviously fall within the definition of munitions factories were integral to the work. For example, small carpentry firms and furniture workshops produced wings for aircraft, and sewing machine manufacturers and repair facilities made essential components for weapons.

[Robert Flello]

The Minister is right to say that it is important to recognise the work of the different allied trades, but I regard our proposal on munitions workers as a first step. When the Bevin boys were recognised, it was appreciated that the land-girls would need to be too, but the issues were dealt with discretely and individually, so there is a precedent.

[Matthew Hancock]

Yes, I understand that point. Fireworks manufacturers, which were mentioned in the debate, were also critical to munitions work, but there is an important question about where to draw the boundary.

My hon. Friend the Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless) talked about close links to Woolwich and the involvement of a range of people. The hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) talked about Les George and Pembrey munitions factory and reminded us not only of the dangerous work done during the war, but of the entirely necessary work that continued after 1945 to make unused munitions safe. The hon. Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson) reminded us that the work was often repetitive and, in his word, “boring”, but that it was none the less a proud part of the history of the town and that the work was a source of companionship. That was not least the case in places where it had a huge and obvious impact, such as Bridgend. The hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) spoke of the massive, 40,000-person Bridgend site and the debate about who should work there—a debate that I entirely recognise in what has been happening this very week. We can imagine the camaraderie in the canteen, among the foremen of Bridgend and in the enjoyment of dance halls, opera, football and rugby, but also in the workers’ fortitude in the face of the danger of the task. Finally, the hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) talked about his personal experience. He provided a powerful testament to the strength and fortitude of the women who worked in the factories during the war, which he related to his account of the men who work in the same factories now.

The lack of records and the difficulties in verifying entitlement raise practical questions about how to recognise formally the contribution of individual civilian workers, but I will consider the points that have been made in the debate and speak to my hon. Friend the Minister of State, who is formally responsible. He is to meet the all-party group on 23 April to listen to the arguments in person, and sends apologies for not being able to attend the debate. He has also been invited to the event on 15 April and will attend if he can. He is looking forward to replying to the all-party group about that shortly.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

I welcome the way in which the Minister has responded to the debate, and the fact that he is keeping an open mind. In Bridgend there is a memorial to the 27 people who died, which reads:

“Cofiwn yn ddiolchgar

Bawb a weithiodd yn

Ffatri Arfau Penybont

Ac yn enwedig y rhai

A laddwyd yno”,

which means:

“Remember with great gratitude

All those who worked at

The Bridgend Arsenal

And especially those

Who were killed there”.

It goes on to list all the names. We are starting to put in place the things that will give recognition, and I welcome the fact that the Minister’s mind is not closed to the possibility of individual recognition for those who served, including those who have passed away. Their families may want them to be recognised and to have something that is personal to them, by which they can remember.

[Matthew Hancock]

The hon. Gentleman suggests that time is pressing, especially for those who served during the second world war. I pay tribute to the all-party group, which was set up to explore ways to prevent those valiant efforts from being forgotten. The Government appreciate its work. As the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South said, thanks to its efforts, last Remembrance day, munitions workers, both male and female, participated for the first time in the march past the Cenotaph. We should thank the Royal British Legion for its support.

The launch event for the fundraising campaign to raise £100,000 for a lasting memorial at the national memorial arboretum in Staffordshire will be on 15 April in the House of Commons, and I wish it well. I hope that campaign that will be well supported by the public—I am sure that it will. I also hope that, subject to other business, my hon. Friend the Minister of State will be able to make it to the launch. I know that he was pleased to receive his invitation. I pay tribute also to the partnership with the Imperial War Museum, supported by BAE Systems—in particular I want to recognise the work of Scott Dodsworth—to record the achievements of munitions workers and ensure that we do not forget.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

As encouragement to the Minister and others in the Government to come to the event, perhaps I should I point out that they would be in the inestimable company of our patron, the authoritative and renowned broadcaster Huw Edwards, who lends his gravitas to the work being done by the all-party group. I am sure that Ministers would bask in the glow of the launch.

[Matthew Hancock]

If Mr Edwards’s eloquence can match that of the hon. Gentleman, it will be a truly memorable event. His reading of words from the front of the Bridgend factory magazine, and, also in translation, from the memorial, had powerful force. I wish the all-party group every success on 15 April and sincerely hope that the event will result in a fitting tribute to those who risked and gave their lives in munitions factories. I will take a clear message back to my colleagues. I am grateful to have had the chance formally to restate our gratitude to the thousands of people who carried out that essential and dangerous work in the name of freedom, and who risked and gave their lives so that we might enjoy that freedom today.

Oral Answers to Questions

Matt Hancock Excerpts

Thursday 21st March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

5. What assessment he has made of access to apprenticeships for young women.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Skills (Matthew Hancock)]

The number of women starting apprenticeships has more than doubled since this Government took office. The tax cuts for low earners that were announced yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will take thousands of apprentices—men and women—out of tax altogether.

[Alison McGovern]

I thank the Minister for his answer, I think. It sounded lovely, but unfortunately the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee reported in November:

“Gender segregation remains a huge problem with only 3% of engineering apprentices”

being women

“compared to 92% of hairdressing apprentices.”

The Select Committee said:

“Such inequality, especially in a publicly funded scheme is not acceptable”.

Since November, what has the Minister been doing about that?

[Matthew Hancock]

Under Labour, a minority—[Interruption.] Hold on! Under Labour, a minority of those starting apprenticeships were women, and now a majority of those starting apprenticeships are women. I thought that the hon. Lady would welcome that. Specifically on engineering, not only is the apprentice of the year, Jenny Westworth, a brilliant engineer, but we have a scheme with Rolls-Royce, BAE Systems and others to promote women in engineering. This is something that I feel passionately about and we will do yet more.

[Peter Luff (Mid Worcestershire) (Con)]

This week, I met two hugely impressive female engineering apprentices from the company MBDA, which achieves a 50% intake of female engineering apprentices. That shows that it can be done. Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the best ways of achieving that is for businesses to engage with schools as part of an effective design and technology curriculum?

[Matthew Hancock]

I agree entirely. That demonstrates the effort that is being made. Indeed, the Secretary of State met the female engineers my hon. Friend talked about. The number of apprentices in engineering and manufacturing has gone up by more than half in the past two and a half years. [Interruption.] The “Oohs” and “Aahs” of Labour Members only reflect their disappointment at being such failures themselves.

[Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab)]

The Minister’s Department found recently that one in five apprentices receives no training whatever. That is worrying for apprentices and damaging to the brand. What action is the Minister taking to address that?

[Matthew Hancock]

The gathering of that evidence started in 2008. It is shocking that that happened under the previous Administration, and we have stopped it.

[Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con)]

6. What assessment he has made of national apprenticeship week 2013.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Skills (Matthew Hancock)]

National apprenticeship week last week was a triumph. Tens of thousands of new apprenticeship places were announced; there was double the coverage of last year; and the message went out loud and clear from this House and beyond that apprenticeships deliver.

[Mike Freer]

I am grateful to the Minister for that answer. Last week I had an apprenticeships fair. Does the Minister agree that the National Apprenticeship Service does a wonderful job in supporting MPs, private organisations and charities in boosting apprenticeships in this country?

[Matthew Hancock]

I commend the National Apprenticeship Service for its work, and I know there were more than 400 local residents and 22 employers at my hon. Friend’s job fair. I have my own jobs fair tomorrow, and national apprenticeship week next year will take place on 3-7 March. I hope that all hon. Members will get involved.

[Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)]

Businesses in my constituency report difficulty in recruiting apprentices in electrical, mechanical and control engineering. What can the Minister do to develop a pipeline of such apprentices?

[Matthew Hancock]

We have made it clear that we expect a new norm for school leavers to go either into apprenticeships or to university. On average, 10 people apply for every apprenticeship vacancy. There is huge enthusiasm, but much more that we can do.

[Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)]

Further to the question from my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern), surely the Government should adopt a comprehensive strategy to tackle gender segregation, just as they have—rightly—supported the Davies report on senior women on company boards.

[Matthew Hancock]

A comprehensive strategy is about ensuring that we support women as well as men who want to do apprenticeships, and that is exactly what we are doing.

[Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab)]

7. What recent assessment he has made of manufacturing activity and future capacity in that sector.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)]

10. What his policy is on vocational education routes; and if he will make a statement.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Skills (Matthew Hancock)]

We are reforming vocational education to be more rigorous and responsive. We will introduce a TechBacc to recognise high-value technical education. We are strengthening further education colleges and, through the Richard reforms, strengthening apprenticeships, so that university or an apprenticeship becomes the new norm for school leavers.

[Dan Jarvis]

I thank the Minister for his response. He may not be aware that a number of major public and private sector employers in Barnsley recently signed a pledge to have 2.5% of their work force as apprenticeships. However, with the number of young people aged 16 to 18 starting apprenticeships falling, can the Minister learn anything from the innovative approach taken in my constituency?

[Matthew Hancock]

Yes, I am sure I can learn an awful lot from such an approach. It sounds terrific and I would like to hear more.

[Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)]

My constituency experience is that many young people and their families find it very difficult to understand exactly the qualification routes in vocational education and how young people might plug in later to more academic careers or whatever. Will the Minister consider simplifying the system to ensure much greater clarity for those interested in following such careers?

[Matthew Hancock]

That is an important point. The TechBacc aims to do precisely what the right hon. Gentleman suggests, alongside making apprenticeships the new norm. We want to make clear the progression routes that people can take to get into the career that they want. I am happy to look at any other steps we can take, but simplification is the order of the day.

[Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)]

Does the Minister realise that success in vocational education is a game of two halves? We will get the expansion in quality apprenticeships we need only if he has prepared the ground, which means proper support for vocational education in schools, on which the Government are failing. The latest research from the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development shows that parents remain doubtful. Therefore, in his second day job as a Minister in the Department for Education, will he restore key stage 4 work experience and dedicated funding for face-to-face guidance, for which half the people surveyed by the CIPD and the employers I speak to are crying out?

[Matthew Hancock]

We are introducing work experience as part of the study programmes in sixth forms and for 16 to 18-year-olds. The new duty on schools to provide independent and impartial advice is an important step we have taken from this summer.

[Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)]

11. What support his Department is providing to encourage investment and growth in north and north-east Lincolnshire authority areas.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

T2. Thank you, Mr Speaker; I followed the instructions on the Order Paper, which said, “from 10.15”. Timing is always important. What are the coalition Government doing to promote apprenticeships in manufacturing industries? If the Minister would like good examples, I can draw his attention to Paxman in my constituency—MAN Diesel and Turbo—and Fläkt Woods, among whose apprentices is Kallum Parks, who last month was presented with the Essex apprentice of the year award for 2012.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Skills (Matthew Hancock)]

I have just announced to the House that national apprenticeship week next year will from 3 to 7 March. I commend Fläkt Woods for the work it does and the apprenticeships it teaches. The number of apprenticeships in Colchester over the last couple of years has more than doubled, so clearly my hon. Friend’s efforts are making progress.

[Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab)]

Last year this Government presided over a double-dip recession. The Office for Budget Responsibility has just halved its forecast for what growth will be on the Government’s watch this year, so the situation is urgent. Yesterday the Government announced a number of measures that the Secretary of State says will help—the employment allowance for employers in respect of national insurance, an increase in capital spending by £3 billion a year and the establishment of Lord Heseltine’s single local growth fund. Which of these measures will help struggling businesses in 2013?

Apprenticeships in England: Next Steps

Matt Hancock Excerpts

Thursday 14th March 2013 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Skills (Matthew Hancock)]

Today the Government have published “The Future of Apprenticeships in England: Next Steps from the Richard Review”, our response to Doug Richard’s independent “Review of Apprenticeships”. It sets out our long-term vision for apprenticeships, together with our proposals for achieving this.

The Richard “Review of Apprenticeships” was published in November 2012, and the report set out a compelling vision for the future of apprenticeships in England. Our response firmly agrees with the review’s assessment of the challenges and opportunities ahead, in particular to place employers at the heart of all aspects of apprenticeships and to ensure rigour, and endorses his vision and the key steps we will need to take to get there.

Apprenticeships are a success; the quantity has risen by a record amount, with half a million starts over the last year. We must ensure consistently good quality, too.

The reforms we are proposing are challenging and far-reaching. We want to work closely with employers, educators and others with an interest in apprenticeships, on how best to turn these principles into practice. That is why today we have launched a consultation to inform our next steps.

A copy of the response has been placed in the Libraries. The consultation will stay open until 22 May. We will carefully consider responses over the summer and will publish our detailed implementation plan in autumn 2013.

Apprenticeships

Matt Hancock Excerpts

Thursday 14th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Skills (Matthew Hancock)]

With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement about the future of apprenticeships.

Apprenticeships are back. Having existed in this country for more than six centuries, apprenticeships have through the ages provided the vehicle for skills and trades to be handed down the generations. At their best, they are an engine for social mobility and for giving employers and apprentices alike the skills they need to prosper. Although apprenticeships declined in the previous century, this century they have started to recover and grow, both in number—500,000 started last year, compared with the approximately 350,000 who started at university—and in stature, becoming a career choice in their own right.

Although that growth in numbers should be welcomed on both sides of the House—it is also good to be able to welcome the shadow Skills Minister, the hon. Member for Blackpool South (Mr Marsden), to his place—I think we will all agree that we must increase the quality of apprenticeships and make them relevant to today’s economy. We will not delay progress on making such improvements. Steps have already been taken to require every apprenticeship to be a real job and to mandate that, in most cases, an apprenticeship lasts a minimum of a year, and today we are announcing that we will further strengthen the provision of English and maths in apprenticeships. The employer ownership of skills pilot is putting power in the hands of employers to design qualifications and deliver apprenticeships in line with employer needs, and we are extending apprenticeships to higher levels of skills and into new professions, such as insurance, accountancy and the law.

We need, however, to go further. Last year we published a report by the former dragon from “Dragons’ Den”, Doug Richard, on the future of apprenticeships. I pay tribute to his work in producing that report, which called on us to put employers in the driving seat, giving them more control over qualification design, training delivery and funding. It called for quality and standards to be raised across the programme and for a focus on outcomes, stripping out bureaucratic processes. It also called for more open data, more awareness and more employer engagement in schools.

We wholeheartedly agree with the principles and vision of the Richard report, which, along with the response that we are publishing today, will be placed in the Library, providing a programme of reform that will be challenging for all involved in apprenticeships—providers, the Government, employers and apprentices themselves—which is absolutely right. Rigour and responsiveness will be our guiding principles. The Richard reforms build on the best of this historic programme, but will once again attune it to the needs of the modern workplace.

Specifically, we agree that apprenticeships should be targeted at those in new jobs or roles to train them for that role as a springboard for their future careers; that employers should be at the centre of designing apprenticeship standards and qualifications; and that assessment should be largely at the end, more independent and graded. We agree on the need to raise further the standards in English and maths, and that employers should be given greater control of funding to ensure that it is directed where it adds most value. Costs will be shared between apprentices, their employers and the Government. We agree that more open and accessible data are vital. We agree on the importance of improving awareness and engagement with schools, so much so that the Prime Minister has set out that it should become the new norm for young people to go to university or into an apprenticeship.

This is a widespread package of reforms, on which we will consult widely and which we will implement sensitively. The consultation will stay open until 22 May. We will carefully consider the responses over the summer. People should be in no doubt that apprenticeships are a force for good. These reforms will help Britain in the global race by supporting unambiguously those who want to work hard and get on in life. They will help give all people the chance to fulfil their potential. I commend this statement to the House.

[Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his statement.

In one respect at least, the Government have dealt comprehensively with the Richard review: they have comprehensively fudged or ignored most of his main recommendations. It reminds me of the old saying from the Clerk in the Table Office that one will always get a reply from Ministers, but not always an answer. I have been through the 10 specific recommendations that Doug Richard laid out in his report on apprenticeships. With the exception of the redefinition of the apprenticeship outcomes and the other matters that the Minister mentioned in that respect, all of which we agree with and welcome, I would give his answers two and a half out of 10 or possibly three. [Interruption.] Government Members should compare forensically the recommendations and what the Government have said.

It would be interesting to hear what Mr Richard makes of the Government’s response to his report. Ministers and their advisers were clearly too nervous to obtain or include any comment from him in their press release. They also completely omitted any reference to Mr Richard’s central recommendation on incentives for employers to invest in apprenticeship training.

There is a depressing pattern in the Government’s responses to new ideas for apprenticeships. They pat their advisers on the head, but ignore the main conclusions of the reviews that they have set up. They ignored Jason Holt’s advice last year on boosting apprenticeships with small and medium-sized enterprises, such as the need for impartial face-to-face careers guidance for young people. They voted here on Tuesday against the proposal of the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee to use public procurement to boost apprenticeship numbers. Now they have sidelined the key recommendation of Doug Richard’s report, again ignoring the need for a proper programme of advice and work experience in schools.

I want to ask the Minister the following questions. One of the central points of Doug Richard’s report was the need to incentivise employers’ funding. Does the Minister see the recommendations on funding made by Doug Richard and Lord Heseltine as complementary? What view does Mr Richard take of that?

The Government response says only that they are moving towards improving the attainment of level 2 functional maths and English. Why have they ignored Richard’s key recommendation that people should have level 2 functional maths and English before the completion of an apprenticeship? Will the Minister do anything to introduce work-based learning to support entry to employment and apprenticeships, as recommended by Mr Richard? Will he confirm that the Secretary of State for Education will provide dedicated funding for face-to-face guidance in schools to deliver improved awareness of apprenticeships among students and parents, as Mr Richard recommended? What measures will he take to support smaller businesses engaging with the apprenticeship system, and what is the timetable for that? How will the Government implement the new definition of apprenticeships as recommended by Mr Richard, and when will they do that? Finally, why have they ignored Doug Richard’s proposal to make some off-site learning mandatory?

The Government have ignored the key point with which Mr Richard began his recommendations. He said:

“It is important to stress that the different elements must be taken collectively: they are interlinked and the system will only make sense and be deliverable if all the elements are adopted as a whole”.

The Skills Minister has failed completely in his second day job at the Department for Education to reanimate the dead hand of the Secretary of State, whose fingers are all over this report on the failures of apprenticeships, failure to deliver work experience, and failure to make changes to guidance. No wonder employers and business organisations are wringing their hands over the Minister’s failure to take up fresh proposals from Holt and Richard. It is just as well that the Labour party has set up a skills taskforce that will come forward with fresh ideas to deliver the step changes that employers need, and address the crucial issues raised by Holt and Richard, which the Government have shown they are ignoring.

[Matthew Hancock]

I do not know whether the shadow Minister turned up after I answered several of the questions that he has asked. Given that the Government commissioned and welcomed this report, and put in place a consultation on the implementation of the principles within, I do not know how they can be ducking that report. If a report is published, and the Government publish a response setting out how they will take forward its recommendations, that is very much taking on that report and its recommendations, not the contrary.

On the specific questions, I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman was present when I said that employers will be given greater control of funding to ensure that it is directed where it most adds value, and that costs will be shared. That is the answer to his specific question on funding. We agree with the principles, we are working and consulting on the options, and we will come forward with a full implementation plan in the autumn.

On information, advice and guidance, it is, of course, vital that schools give independent and impartial careers advice, and we are implementing that statutory duty. On small businesses, the whole point behind making the funding co-funded by and flowing through businesses, is to make it easier for businesses to access that funding. The brutal fact is that at the moment, more than half of apprenticeships are in small and medium-sized businesses.

The biggest disappointment is that on a set of reforms that will improve and strengthen the quality of apprenticeships, there was not one positive word from the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman. I have no doubt that we will hear positive words from elsewhere in the Chamber about the value of apprenticeships and how they help everybody reach their potential, but there was not a single positive word from the Opposition.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Flexibility is key for any work-related apprenticeship policy. Does the Minister agree that apprenticeships should not just be for school leavers? They need to be for the mum going back to work after having looked after her children, and for the man in middle age seeking a new career. Will the Government address this issue?

[Matthew Hancock]

Yes, I agree strongly. For instance, soldiers leaving the armed forces often go through apprenticeships to retrain for civvy street. That is another important element.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Minister knows that I passionately believe in getting the apprenticeship question right, and we should use the Richard review to do that on an all-party basis. There is currently consultation and I hope that Opposition Front Benchers and Government Ministers will work together. At the moment, only 10% of employers take on an apprentice. If theirs costs are not met and if they do not receive an incentive, I do not think it will happen, but I support trying to achieve an all-party success.

[Matthew Hancock]

I agree. I enjoy working with the hon. Gentleman and I hope that those on the Opposition Front Bench come to their senses.

[John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)]

Large employers, such as QinetiQ in my constituency, do very well, with large numbers of apprentices every year going into jobs after four years. My concerns relate to smaller employers. Will the Minister reassure the House that the needs and relatively limited capacity of small employers to engage with changes to apprenticeships can be accommodated in his plans?

[Matthew Hancock]

With a background in small business, I understand entirely. These plans will make it easier for small businesses to access apprenticeships.

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

In my constituency and across Oldham, 8.6% of young people are not in education, employment or training, and we have a lower than average number of 16-to-18 year olds in apprenticeships. As I understand it, the Minister is saying that there will be no response until autumn on the recommendations for engaging with employers. Can we therefore assume that, four years into this Parliament, the Government will have done little or nothing on apprenticeships?

[Matthew Hancock]

No, I said that actions are already being taken forward and I have announced some direct actions today. We are introducing traineeships in the autumn, which aim to ensure that young people have the skills they need to get a job and to hold down a job. That is part of our response too.

[Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD)]

People out in the world know that under this coalition Government the number of apprenticeships has risen dramatically. The Minister and his predecessor have done a huge amount of work. In considering recommendations to widen participation, will he look at accessibility in rural areas for those considering apprenticeships further afield or in an industry not based in their area, to ensure that everybody has the chance of an apprenticeship?

[Matthew Hancock]

Yes, I will.

[Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)]

I served an apprenticeship, albeit in Germany. The success of apprenticeships in Germany is the result of the fact that they are not seen as an alternative for those who cannot go to university, but are seen as an alternative route to achieve the same aim. Will the Minister continue to stress that apprenticeships can be an alternative route, and that this is not just a question of either/or?

[Matthew Hancock]

I stress that as much as I possibly can, and the hon. Lady is well placed to make the case too.

[Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con)]

In my constituency, more than 1,000 apprentices made a start in the past full year. Could we use this opportunity to thank the providers, colleges and employers that have made such a brilliant effort to give young people a great start in life?

[Matthew Hancock]

National apprenticeship week is all about celebrating exactly the sort of people my hon. Friend mentions.

[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Following on from the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart), will the Minister reiterate the importance of ensuring proper awareness of apprenticeships in schools and beyond as an alternative? That is a recommendation of the Richard review, and it is vital if we are to see the take-up of apprenticeships and for them to be taken seriously.

[Matthew Hancock]

The new norm set out by the Prime Minister—that young people go into either an apprenticeship or university—is an important step. On the implementation of schools’ statutory duties, Ofsted has said that that will be a priority in how it assesses schools, and that is important. Some schools do brilliantly, but I want all of them to come up to scratch.

[Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)]

Businesses in Worcester are already benefiting from the Government’s incentives to small and medium-sized enterprises to take on apprenticeships, and that is why we have seen the number of them more than double, with more than 1,000 taking them up. Can I urge the Minister to keep on pressing on both the quantity and the quality of apprenticeships?

[Matthew Hancock]

Yes, that point is very well made. The fact that more than half of apprenticeships are in SMEs is a good sign, but we need to ensure that as we increase quality, we also increase the numbers as much as possible. The fact that apprenticeships are becoming more rigorous will help to encourage employers to get involved.

[Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab)]

With the demise of the professional careers service, how will the Minister ensure that the advice given to our young people in schools will be sufficient and that it will cover issues of diversity in making career choices?

[Matthew Hancock]

That is an important point. The statutory duty on schools is critical in ensuring that that happens, but there is more to it than that. From this summer, for the first time, the destination of people leaving school to go not only to university but into an apprenticeship has been published. With the statutory duty and the Ofsted inspection on the back of them, those destination data will help to push things in the right direction.

[Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)]

The number of apprenticeships in Skipton and Ripon, and in Yorkshire more generally, has doubled. Will my hon. Friend confirm that under this Government, work will be the focus of apprenticeships, in contrast to the classroom-based programme apprenticeships that we saw under the previous Administration?

[Matthew Hancock]

Indeed; we have already shut down the programme apprenticeship route, as it offered an apprenticeship without a job. One of the central arguments in the Richard report, with which I entirely agree, is that apprenticeships are about getting the skills required to do a skilled job. Of course that is absolutely critical.

[Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)]

I am also one of the few former apprentices in the House. Will the Minister confirm that the average length of stay on an apprenticeship programme has significantly decreased? Does he agree that short-term programmes and courses for adults are not proper apprenticeships, and that they simply dilute and discredit the apprenticeship brand?

[Matthew Hancock]

Yes. The quality of apprenticeships is vital, and that includes the length of an apprenticeship. We have introduced a minimum duration for apprenticeships, and we insist that, in all but exceptional cases, they should last for the minimum of a year. That is in the report, but it is an area in which we have already taken action.

[Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)]

Apprenticeships have been one of the Government’s big success stories so far. In Chester, the number of apprenticeships has more than doubled, with 900 people starting one last year. When I talk to companies and businesses, however, I find that micro-businesses find it difficult to take on apprentices. Does the Minister have a view on how we can encourage companies with only one or two employees to take on an apprentice?

[Matthew Hancock]

We are making it as simple as possible. I studied at West Cheshire college in my hon. Friend’s constituency. Colleges and other providers can help small businesses to bust some of the bureaucracy, but I want to bust some of the bureaucracy myself to make it easier.

[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

Increasing skill levels will be among the critical long-term policies for turning around the slump in living standards, which is worsening under this Government. Will the Minister learn more from the German approach, in which larger companies receive stronger encouragement and have greater obligations to take on apprentices than is the case in the UK?

[Matthew Hancock]

I certainly agree that ensuring that everyone reaches their potential through apprenticeships and increased skills is vital. An apprenticeship involves learning and doing a job, and encouraging companies to come to the table is vital if we are to make this happen. Through the reforms and the principles set out in the Richard report, to which we have responded today, that is exactly the direction we want to take.

[David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)]

On Tuesday, I was fortunate enough to go to the annual Macclesfield apprenticeship fair, where I saw a wide range of organisations offering apprenticeships. They included McCann Manchester, Siemens and Cheshire East council, as well as the local hospital. What steps is my hon. Friend taking to increase the number of quality apprenticeships in the widest possible range of industry sectors?

[Matthew Hancock]

The whole report is about doing just that.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

Small businesses in Hull tell me that the flat rate that they are paid to take on an apprentice does not take into account the particular needs of small businesses, and that it is the same rate as that paid to larger businesses. Will the Minister support the introduction of a differential rate for small businesses taking on apprentices?

[Matthew Hancock]

We have introduced a grant of £1,500 for small businesses taking on their first apprentices, precisely to help them with the bureaucracy that the hon. Lady mentioned, and I would encourage her to tell the small businesses that she talks to that it is available. The take-up has been good, but we need to ensure that everyone who could benefit from it knows about it.

[Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that employers will welcome the greater control of funding so that they can direct resources to where they need them most?

--- Later in debate ---

[Matthew Hancock]

I hope that they will. I welcome my hon. Friend as the apprenticeship ambassador in Parliament, as was announced today. His role is to ensure that we expand apprenticeships, listening to both parliamentarians and businesses as we take these reforms forward.

[Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)]

The Minister will be aware of the stark gender segregation in STEM apprenticeships. Will he tell us what steps he is going to take to achieve an increase?

[Matthew Hancock]

Yes, we have specific pilots to deal with this issue. The employer ownership pilot involves a consortium led by Rolls-Royce, BAE and others and it is aimed at increasing the number of women engaged in engineering. The best argument in favour comes from apprentices themselves. The apprentice of the year is a female engineer who works on the Typhoon Eurofighter. She is an inspiration, and it is the arguments that she puts—better than me—that will help to encourage girls and young women to look to engineering as an exciting career prospect.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

Can the Minister find it within himself to praise the General, Municipal and Boilermakers Union for its initiative with British Gas? Will he acknowledge that it is precisely the green skills apprenticeships that they are piloting together that will be the engine of growth?

[Matthew Hancock]

The engine of growth can come from all sectors in our economy. Apprenticeships have support across the piece. For instance, I find myself agreeing with Dave Prentis of Unison on the importance of employer ownership, so this is an area in respect of which many different parts of society and economy—including, no doubt, parts of the GMB—can work together to ensure that skill provision is made available.

[Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)]

Following the question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson), when I speak to small businesses, they tell me not just that they do not have enough money to take on apprentices—[Interruption.] I will continue when the Minister is listening. The small businesses that I speak to tell me that not only do they not have enough financial support to take on apprentices but that the money they receive covers only a small percentage of the actual costs. Will the Government’s proposals tackle this?

[Matthew Hancock]

Of course, the extra support we have given to small businesses is important, but the crucial point is this: apprenticeships are good for the whole economy; they are good for tackling skills shortages; they are good for apprentices, but they are good for employers, too. So it is right for all three—the Government, apprentices and employers—to pay their part towards the costs of apprenticeships because all three benefit from them. That is one reason why this is such a successful scheme.

Apprenticeships

Matt Hancock Excerpts

Tuesday 12th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Skills (Matthew Hancock)]

It is a great pleasure to be here, in national apprenticeship week, celebrating apprenticeships. We have had an extremely positive debate, with almost all contributions being positive and huge support on both sides of the House for apprenticeships. Success has many fathers. We heard first the claim that apprenticeships really got going in 1997. I had planned to say that they were in fact first mentioned in Chaucer 651 years ago, but then we heard the even greater claim from the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) that they are as old as human beings.

It has been a great national apprenticeship week so far. At 5.30 this morning I was learning from Morrisons apprentices how to fillet fish, and what brilliant apprentices they are. It is quite a skill they have with knives—I certainly cannot match it. I have only one note of mild disappointment, because the speech we just heard from the Opposition Front Bench was rather disappointing. I thought that the hon. Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck) sounded rather like the sultan of scepticism or the Eeyore of apprenticeships, only seeing the worst and determined to dampen, downgrade and darken the mood. But we will not darken the mood, Mr Deputy Speaker, because apprenticeships are a cause to celebrate, and celebrate them we will.

Let me turn to the many issues raised by Members across the Chamber. First, careers advice is vital, as the Chairman of the Select Committee, the hon. Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey), said, as did the right hon. Member for Tottenham, in a powerful speech, and my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) and the hon. Member for Inverclyde (Mr McKenzie). We have introduced a new statutory duty on schools that came into force in September, and Ofsted has said that it is making it a priority to consider that. The new destination data that were brought in this summer not only highlight, as they have in the past, the proportion of pupils going to university but, for the first time, publish for all schools the proportion going into apprenticeships. That is an important step, as Members in all parts of the House will recognise. We look forward to Ofsted’s report in the summer on the implementation of the duty to provide independent and impartial careers advice.

The second issue, which was raised by many Members, is the importance of the link between youth unemployment and apprenticeships. It is a scandal that youth unemployment is as high as it is, falling though it may be, when there are skills shortages in key parts of our economy such as engineering and computing. This shows that the linkage between the education system and the skills system, on the one hand, and employers, on the other, has not been strong enough. As my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) so eloquently explained, increasing that employer focus is a vital part of the reforms that we are pursuing. Another part of those reforms is the introduction of traineeships so that as apprenticeships become more rigorous and more high-quality, there is a programme of support, alongside the DWP programmes, to make sure that people get the skills they need, including in English, maths and work preparation, to get a good job and to hold down a job. My hon. Friend the Member for South Staffordshire (Gavin Williamson), and the hon. Members for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Paul Farrelly), for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart) and for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd) also talked about the link between youth unemployment and apprenticeships. Several Members mentioned their local jobs clubs, and I wish them well. I am having a jobs club in Newmarket on Friday and look forward to it very much.

The third issue is how much apprenticeships are valued. The Chair of the Select Committee mentioned the recently published statistic that, on average, a higher apprenticeship increases lifetime earnings by £150,000. Let that figure go out there and let us all present and explain it, because it shows the value of apprenticeships.

[Mr Lammy]

The Minister makes a good point, but does he recognise that most of the growth in apprenticeships is at level 2, not level 3—the higher apprenticeships to which he refers?

[Matthew Hancock]

I absolutely recognise that there have been increases in the number of apprenticeships over the past two and half years in level 2 and level 3, and we are going to introduce levels 4, 5 and 6. In every age group there have been increases in the number of apprenticeships, and we should celebrate that.

[Julie Hilling]

Will the Minister give way?

[Matthew Hancock]

I cannot, I am afraid; I have virtually no time left.

The hon. Members for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard Burden), for Rotherham (Sarah Champion), for Bradford East (Mr Ward), for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) and for Copeland (Mr Reed) talked about the value of apprenticeships. In particular, the hon. Member for Copeland spoke powerfully about how apprenticeships now reflect the modern economy and are spreading into relatively new areas of the economy. All this fits the argument made by the Prime Minister yesterday that there should be a new norm in our country whereby school leavers go to university or into an apprenticeship so that we have a high-skilled economy and a high-skilled work force, not only so that every individual can reach their potential—their personal best—but so that our economy can compete in the global race. I am glad to see cross-party consensus on the importance of the global race.

The hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) mentioned many things; I was intrigued by her speech. I want to pick out her mention of the world skills competition, which is a brilliant, fascinating and exciting competition that everybody should watch; certainly, I thoroughly enjoyed watching it.

Members have mentioned the need to increase the number of apprenticeships and I can announce that, in addition to the three apprentices in my private offices, the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills will advertise tomorrow for three further apprentices in our communications department. The numbers are going up and up.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle) and the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon), have said, while we and many local authorities are broadly supportive of and, indeed, leading on procurement apprenticeships, such as those with Crossrail, I am concerned that the motion is defective, because it appears to call on the Government to exceed their legal powers. Given my assurances, I hope that the Opposition will not push for a vote.

[Mr Marsden]

The motion states that the Government should use

“the billions of pounds committed to public procurement”,

but our interpretation is that that does not automatically mean procurement in local government, although we believe that the Government have an important role to play in promoting that. I do not understand why the Minister thinks that the motion is defective.

[Matthew Hancock]

The phrase “public procurement” could easily be interpreted as including procurement in local government, national Government and agencies. The motion was tabled only late last night and it would not be advisable for the House of Commons to vote for something that might not be legal. I am afraid that we must resist the motion, but I hope that, given our reassurances, we can all agree on the need for procurement where possible and for it to represent good value for money. I hope there will not be a vote.

Finally, many Members, including the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans), mentioned the importance of increased quality and employer focus. Members discussed the cross-party desire for parity of esteem among vocational routes, apprenticeships and universities. It is my passionate belief that parity of esteem will come from parity of quality. We need to increase quality throughout the apprenticeship system so that all apprentices can be as good as the very best at MBDA, Morrisons and Rolls-Royce, which have been mentioned by many Members.

We have taken steps to increase quality: we have insisted that people need to continue with English and maths if they do not have a C grade at GCSE, and have said that there needs to be a minimum of a year in almost all circumstances and a job as part of an apprenticeship. The removal of programme-led apprenticeships has taken out 18,000 apprenticeship places, which is a far higher number than that for the decrease in apprenticeships for 16 to 19-year-olds over the past year. Under the previous Government some apprenticeships did not involve a job, so apprentices were training with no prospect of a job, and astonishingly, some apprenticeships involved jobs without training. At their heart, apprenticeships are about earning and learning at the same time. Increasing quality is vital and I will not apologise for that.

We will respond to the Richard review and are in favour of rigorous apprenticeships that are responsive to employers’ needs. We want to ensure a new norm that gives everyone a good opportunity to reach their potential. We should not use a target to push people into university when it may be best for them to go into an apprenticeship. Instead, let us provide the best possible opportunities for young people, through university and apprenticeships, and a ladder of progression from level 2 to levels 3, 4 and beyond to new areas of the economy, including legal services and accountancy, as well as the more traditional areas of engineering and construction. In that way, we can ensure that there is the potential for everybody to succeed.

[Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab)]

claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).

Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.

Question agreed to.

Main Question accordingly put.

Economic Regeneration (Harwich)

Matt Hancock Excerpts

Monday 11th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Skills (Matthew Hancock)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) on securing the debate. The hour is late and we are deep into apprenticeships week, so it is right that we debate the importance of skills in his constituency. As he started with Samuel Pepys, so I shall start with Chaucer, who first mentioned apprenticeships more than 650 years ago. Although this is a novel and innovative project, it has a rich history.

I was in Lowestoft earlier this month looking at the links between the skills system and the offshore industry developing all along the East Anglian coast. It is critical that, as new industries develop, we provide the necessary skills, but in the past our skills system has perhaps not been good at responding to the needs of new industries as they emerge. I am delighted that, like other parts of the country, my hon. Friend’s constituency is benefiting from the reinvigoration of apprenticeships. There was an 18% rise in the number of apprenticeships in his constituency last year and 740 starts.

We must do more to make the system more rigorous and responsive to the needs of employers, however, and the employer ownership pilot is a critical part of that. It is about a shift towards delivering skills through the needs of employers and seeing employers as customers of vocational skills. That is the big picture for the employer ownership pilot, for which my hon. Friend has set out a crucial and innovative bid.

In total, in round 1, which I announced within the first week of being in this position, the bid comprised £80 million of training activity over two years. The AJ Woods proposal, “Energising Harwich”, is an important part of that, bringing together local employers, working together, and the Colchester Institute, as my hon. Friend said. Bringing together different players in the consortium also ensures that the whole supply chain gets the chance to participate in the skills enhancements that are supported.

Regional employers in the project will contribute some £3 million over two years, which will be supported by more than £850,000 in public sector funding. The first thing he asked about was the need for flexibility in the paper trail and the audit. This is a pilot scheme, the purpose of which is to investigate new ways of delivering skills that employers need, in exactly the way he described, in order to support wider regeneration efforts. It is therefore crucial that we keep under constant review the audit needs and the bureaucracy surrounding the bids. With public sector money it is critical to have appropriate audit. However, we have to ensure that that does not get in the way of delivering the project. I will therefore take that point away and very much keep my eye on it, as the project develops, and try to ensure that the burden is minimal, considering the necessity for good audit, given that we are putting public sector money into the project.

My hon. Friend’s second point was about match funding of 50%. Co-funding of skills provision is an important principle. The beneficiaries are the wider economy and the employer, as well as the individuals who do the training. In this case the 50% match funding was agreed locally as part of the bidding process. It was not a ratio set by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, although we require some co-funding. Of course I recognise the challenge for some companies, especially smaller ones, in contributing their own cash and time, and it is appropriate that the model was developed locally.

[Mr Jenkin]

I am listening carefully to my hon. Friend. The first two concerns might be related, because the permanent secretary in his Department, as the chief accounting officer, will need to be satisfied that match funding has been delivered. However, given the way in which time and benefits in kind are costed in a small business, we all know that it is rather unlikely that some hard and fast, actuarially justifiable figure for match funding will be available. I therefore suggest that a little flexibility or generosity of understanding of what has been committed to meet the match funding will be required, and it is the accounting officer in my hon. Friend’s Department who will have to be satisfied.

[Matthew Hancock]

That is an important point. In a way, it answers the question about the need for flexibility in the audit requirements and the need for the accounting officer in the Department to be content that this is an efficient and effective use of public money, as well as being confident about surviving the ferocity of the Public Accounts Committee, should any hearing take place—not that there needs to be one on this subject.

[Mr Jenkin]

Forgive me, but my other point was that the businesses that are providing the 50% matched funding will account for it from their own resources. Some of these small businesses have their accounts audited, but they probably do not have the sort of comprehensive audit that one would expect of a bank or a major manufacturing business. There will have to be some leeway on that and, not so much a flexibility, but a recognition that everything is being done in good faith, rather than as a means of defrauding the taxpayer and getting away with committing less than 50%.

[Matthew Hancock]

Yes, I recognise that that is a strong argument. We are running this pilot precisely to work out those kinds of issues, especially with respect to small businesses, with which the Government are, frankly, not particularly well equipped to deal. We do not have a good history of engaging with them, and skills is an area in which the Government as a whole need to improve.

That links to my hon. Friend’s third point, which was funding for legislative accreditations, or accreditations that are near-legislative. The skills system has a general rule that legislative accreditations should be paid for by the employer, so as not to crowd out private sector funding with public sector funding, except in the case of unemployed people who need accreditations in order to get a job and who have no employer to take on the burden.

There is a link to co-funding. We recognise that funding for accreditations can in some cases be expensive. In many cases it is necessary, and it also forms part of the co-funding of the project. The two can therefore be linked. A limited amount of resources go into skills funding, and we try to focus it on skills that are transferable and that would not otherwise be paid for by an employer. After all, there is a £40 billion to £50 billion economy in skills provision across the whole economy, and the Government budget for adult skills is £4 billion, so it is important that we do not end up trying to pay for the entirety of training across the whole economy. We simply would not be able to afford that.

Those are my responses to my hon. Friend’s specific points, but I want to give him a broader, more generic, response as well. We are going into round 2 of the employer ownership pilot. The bids for round 1 of the pilot are important, in that we can learn from them how the system can work better and in different and innovative ways. This is an innovative example of companies large and small coming together to provide for a specific need, so it is important for the Government to learn from what works and what does not, and to change what needs to be changed to make the pilot deliver.

This is called the employer ownership pilot for a reason. Each of the projects is, in itself, a pilot, and I give my hon. Friend the undertaking that I shall take a personal interest in his project. I shall ensure that the necessary understanding of the context of running a small business and the costs relating to time that he mentioned are taken into account. I will ensure that I watch his project very closely, because it has the potential to unlock a new industry in an area that, for too long, has not had the vibrancy of a new industry. It has the potential to do a lot, not only for the town but all the way up the East Anglian coast. I will take away the points that he has raised and look into them in more detail.

I congratulate AJ Woods on the work that it has done, but I also urge the company to work closely with others to bring the project to fruition. As my hon. Friend said, the area has higher unemployment than elsewhere in the region, as well as skills shortages. That tells me that, for too long, the skills system has not been working properly. Where we have unemployment alongside skills shortages, there has been a problem. It is my job to try to fix that, and the employer ownership pilot is an important element of finding the solution. I want to work hard to make it happen and to learn what the Government need to do to deliver better and innovative skills, and I shall be happy to work with my hon. Friend on that.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Matt Hancock Excerpts

Monday 4th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)]

4. What steps he is taking to ensure that the funding formula for school sixth forms and sixth-form colleges is fair and equitable.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Skills (Matthew Hancock)]

In 2010 we committed to ending the historical disparity in post-16 funding so that by 2015 schools and colleges will be funded at the same level as one another for the first time, on a per-pupil basis. Transitional protection will apply for four years from 2011 to give institutions time to adjust.

[Lorely Burt]

I am grateful to the Minister for that answer and to the Secretary of State for his correspondence. In Solihull and elsewhere, differences in funding for sixth-form colleges and state schools are putting sixth-form colleges under great competitive pressure. Will the Minister assure Solihull sixth-form college, and all sixth-form colleges, that he will introduce remedies as quickly as possible?

[Matthew Hancock]

I am a strong supporter of sixth-form colleges, which do excellent work, including Solihull sixth-form college. I congratulate the newly formed all-party parliamentary group on sixth-form colleges. I regularly meet the ministerial working group on post-16 funding to discuss the implementation of the fair per-pupil funding system, and I will bear my hon. Friend’s comments in mind.

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for attending the all-party group’s reception last week. I think that he recognised at the meeting that sixth-form colleges, in particular, face a challenging funding situation because their learners are funded significantly less than those pre-16 or in higher education. Will he commit to addressing that issue as soon as possible?

[Matthew Hancock]

Of course funding is tight, and it is important that we get it to the right place. The starting point is ensuring that, as far as possible, students doing the same sorts of courses are funded the same across different institutions and that, just as we do before the age of 16, someone in full-time education is funded by broadly the same amount as anyone else in full-time education.

[Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)]

As a vice-chairman of the newly formed all-party group, and as the Member who represents the finest sixth-form college in the country, Farnborough sixth-form college, which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State knows only too well, I welcome the Government’s commitment to ending the disparity. However, I have just been on the phone to the principal of the college, who tells me that even now it is looking at being between 9% and 15% less well funded than its counterparts in mainstream education. I would be grateful if my hon. Friend expedited his proposed changes.

[Matthew Hancock]

The changes will be brought in by 2015. We have put in place transitional arrangements to ensure that institutions have time to adjust. Especially in sixth-form colleges such as Farnborough, which has an excellent track record—it is truly inspirational—it is important that we move to per-pupil funding in a considered way.

[Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)]

Sixteen to 18-year-olds from disadvantaged backgrounds studying at further education sixth-form colleges do not receive free meals at lunchtime, whereas their counterparts in school sixth forms do. Is not that another injustice that needs to be addressed?

[Matthew Hancock]

Schools do not receive any extra funding for provision of that duty, so when looking at that question we need to be extremely careful not to add new duties without extra funding to go with it.

[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

5. What recent assessment he has made of the use of phonics in schools.

--- Later in debate ---

[Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)]

9. What assessment he has made of the potential effect of his Department’s traineeships scheme on young people’s readiness for work and apprenticeships.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Skills (Matthew Hancock)]

Last week, data showed the lowest number in a decade of people aged 16 to 19 who were not in employment, education or training. One NEET is too many, so traineeships will help young people gain the skills, attitudes and experience they need to get into an apprenticeship or a good job. They will combine substantial work placements and work skills training with English and maths and will help tackle the scourge of youth unemployment.

[Rehman Chishti]

I thank the Minister for that answer. In Medway, the council-led SUCCES—or sustainable uplifting client centred employment support—initiative, which assists over-16s looking for work who have low skills and little experience, has been named as an example of best practice in Europe, helping more than 500 people. What plans does the Minister have to work with existing schemes and providers to deliver new traineeships?

[Matthew Hancock]

I congratulate Medway council on its SUCCES initiative. Traineeships are being designed in a highly consultative way to support and enhance existing best practice not only from councils but from organisations such as the Prince’s Trust, which does brilliant work in this area. I am happy to look at the work that goes on in Medway and to ensure that what we do on traineeships supports it.

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

How will the Minister ensure that more apprenticeships go to younger people, as we know that the figures from last year showed that 9,000 fewer under-19s had gone into apprenticeships?

[Matthew Hancock]

Of course, apprenticeships have been a huge success story and the number of 19 to 24-year-olds involved is rising sharply. We must ensure, too, that apprenticeships are rigorous and high quality, so we have taken steps to do that. I hope that the hon. Lady will join me next week, which is apprenticeships week, in celebrating apprenticeships. Every Member of this House has the opportunity to explain to everybody that apprenticeships are good for the apprentices, good for business and good for society as a whole.

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

23. Will my hon. Friend support the roll-out of the scheme initiated by the Department for Work and Pensions, which ensures that companies offering procurement contracts must hire apprentices? Will he ensure that the scheme, which has resulted in thousands more apprentices in the DWP, is rolled out across Government Departments?

[Matthew Hancock]

I know the scheme well and it is both simple and effective. It also takes value for money into account. I was talking to a permanent secretary about it only this morning and I shall be doing far more of that.

[Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab)]

I welcome investment in pre-apprenticeship training and preparation, but is the Minister not concerned about the accelerating decline in the number of apprenticeships available to 16 to 18-year-olds, which is down 7% from last year’s figure alone, and that the funding providers found a shortfall of £61 million in expenditure on that group last year? It is right and proper to invest in pre-apprenticeship training, but does he not agree that the bigger crisis is in whether those young people will have an apprenticeship to go on to?

[Matthew Hancock]

The crisis would be if we did not improve the quality of apprenticeships, because they are vital in getting people into good jobs and ensuring that there is training in jobs. We took out some low-quality provision, which inevitably had an impact on the numbers, but that is a vital part of ensuring that apprentices are seen to be high quality and are regarded as such and that they are an attractive option for young people, adults and employers.

[Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)]

10. What plans he has for early intervention and child care provision; and if he will make a statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

11. What steps he is taking to ensure that careers advice is available to pupils choosing AS levels.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Skills (Matthew Hancock)]

Schools have a legal responsibility to secure independent and impartial careers guidance in years 9 to 11, and in years 8 to 13 from this September. This requirement will be extended to those up to the age of 18 in colleges. This will help those taking AS-levels to make successful transitions.

[Andrew Selous]

My very excellent Friend the Member for Mid Worcestershire (Peter Luff) has quite properly highlighted the scandal that this country produces only 19,000 graduate engineers a year when we need 41,000 graduate engineers. Unless children take maths and ideally physics at AS-level we are not going to bridge that gap, so will the Minister make it clear to schools that when children make these vital choices, they are told that graduate engineers are being snapped up, the country needs them, and a graduate engineer creates 12 extra jobs in the economy?

[Matthew Hancock]

I can think of few better people to make that argument than my hon. Friend or my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Worcestershire (Peter Luff), with whom I am meeting Professor Perkins, the chief scientific adviser, later today. This is a huge and important area. The lack of engineering skills in this economy is a serious problem, the product in part of 13 years of failure to address the problem. We are working four-square towards that, and we will not rest until it is sorted out.

[Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op)]

Is not the problem with that answer that the Government are proposing to downgrade AS-levels? Good advice is vital if we are to widen participation in higher education. Cambridge university’s response to the Government’s proposals on AS-levels is that they are

“unnecessary and, if implemented, will jeopardise over a decade’s progress towards fairer access.”

Will the Government think again?

[Matthew Hancock]

We are upgrading AS-levels to ensure that we get the best possible and most rigorous education. The Opposition say they are in favour of rigorous education, then they oppose every measure meant to achieve it.

[Stephen Twigg]

We absolutely oppose what the Government are proposing on AS-levels, as do the vast majority of people in the education system, including Cambridge university and the other Russell group universities. Which universities support the Government’s proposals on AS-levels?

[Matthew Hancock]

Seventy-five per cent. of universities do not use AS-levels. What is crucial, therefore, is not only that we work with universities to reform A-levels, but most importantly that we have broadly a rigorous exam system that universities and employers trust. Not only do we in this country have youth unemployment that has been rising since 2004 and became much too high, but worse than that, we have skills shortages at the same time. That means that we need to reform radically the education and skills system that we were left.

[Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)]

12. How many schools have become academies since May 2010.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough) (Lab)]

T5. When I give the awards at Longley Park sixth-form college on 21 March, I shall pass on the enthusiasm of the Under-Secretary of State for Skills for sixth-form colleges. The college teaches maths and English to 16 to 19-year-olds, and through its teaching enrichment programme, which continues at over 600 hours per year, it has increased access in a way not seen in generations. Is it not strange, therefore, that £740 per student is going to be cut from its budget by 2016?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Skills (Matthew Hancock)]

As we discussed earlier in questions, it is vital and fair that we move to a system where all pupils up to the age of 19, except those with specific needs or those studying particularly expensive subjects to teach, are funded on the same basis. Whether someone attends a further education college, a sixth-form college or a school of any description, we must have fair funding per pupil. That is what we do from the ages of five to 16, and raising the participation age to 19 is an entirely fair way to run the system.

[Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)]

T9. I welcome the Government’s move to introduce the pupil premium, which has helped schools in South East Cornwall, but more can be done. What further action is the Minister taking to assist the 40 education authorities, including Cornwall, that are listed by the f40 campaign as receiving the lowest income?

--- Later in debate ---

[Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD)]

Over the past 15 years, professional, face-to-face careers advice has virtually vanished from our schools. Could the Minister advise us when it will return?

[Matthew Hancock]

Yes. The new duty for independent and impartial careers advice came into place in September, and this summer Ofsted will do a thematic review to assess how well schools are implementing it, where it is being done excellently and where it is not yet being implemented correctly. I look forward to receiving that review.

[Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) (Lab)]

T10. The Daycare Trust has warned that it will be children from low-income families in particular who will lose out as a result of Government changes to child care ratios. Will the Minister listen to the concerns of parents, child care staff and experts, and think again on the proposals?

Engineering Careers

Matt Hancock Excerpts

Wednesday 13th February 2013 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Skills (Matthew Hancock)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bayley, and to respond to the debate. It is great to see so many Members here from across the House. There has been, I fear, an outbreak of consensus about the need to tackle the problem, and I am very much part of that. There is passion on both sides. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries) on securing the debate. I know that we often have debates in this Chamber and on the Floor of the House, but raising awareness and constantly making the arguments that hon. Members have made today is an important part of the solution. I hope that through this debate we are helping to solve Britain’s problem of a shortage of engineers.

In the 10 minutes that I have, I will provide some context and go through some of the things that the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills is doing to rise to the challenge and answer the shortfall that many Members have eloquently described. Many estimates have been made of the shortage of engineers in the country, and although it is impossible to put a precise figure on that shortage, it is clear that we need more engineers. We need those who are qualified at university level, both undergraduate and postgraduate, and those who are qualified through apprenticeships at technician level.

Over the past few years, steps have been made in the right direction. The number of engineering and manufacturing apprenticeships has risen to 60,000 starts in the past year, up from 25,000 starts a decade earlier. This year, the number of applications to university to study engineering is 127,000, which is up 8% on last year alone. The proportion of those applying to university to study computing, which is an important element of engineering, has risen even more sharply. At school, participation at GCSE in maths, physics and the sciences, which are an essential bedrock of engineering, has been rising sharply. The Department for Education, as well as BIS, is playing a big role in ensuring that the building blocks, which for too long have been deteriorating, are in place.

Let me set out the action that we are taking in four areas. First, we are making the whole skills system more focused on the needs of employers. The employer ownership of skills is important to ensure that we provide and support the skills that employers need.

[Mark Menzies]

I urge the Minister to consider working closely with schools, colleges and universities in areas where enterprise zones are developing and to focus on apprenticeships, particularly in engineering, in those areas.

[Matthew Hancock]

That is an important point, and I will look at what more we can do in enterprise zones to add a skills element. The employer ownership strategy is about ensuring that we provide the skills that employers need. We have a conundrum in this country. Although youth unemployment is falling, it is still slightly less than 1 million, which is too high, but, at the same time, we have skills shortages. That tells me that the skills and education system has not worked to match up the supply and demand for skills.

[Jonathan Lord (Woking) (Con)]

Will the Minister join me in paying tribute to McLaren in my constituency, which helps to sponsor an annual technology and engineering prize? Indeed, the Prime Minister came the other year to give out the prize to the winning team. Not only glamorous technology companies such as McLaren, but every technology and engineering company should hold open days and become involved in such competitions, to engage young people and, indeed, their teachers to ensure that they are aware of the career options that are on offer and the sort of subjects that need to be studied to pursue those careers.

[Matthew Hancock]

Absolutely. I pay tribute to what McLaren, and many other companies, are doing. That brings me on to my second point, which is about careers advice. The Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics Network, or STEMNET, is a network of 25,000 STEM ambassadors who go into schools. Where they go into schools and inspire the pupils, they can be a huge driver, by explaining the exciting things that are going on in modern engineering, and not only to boys but girls. After all, only 7% of those in engineering are female, and so the easiest way to increase the number of engineers is to have more of a balance, because if we are only recruiting—broadly speaking—from half the population, we are clearly missing a very important trick.

Competitions in skills are very important, too. The annual skills show, which was in Birmingham in 2012, is an extravaganza of brilliant exhibitions of high-level skills by highly trained people. There is also an element of competition to show the very best of British skills, as it leads on to the world skills competition. It is absolutely brilliant, and I encourage everybody to go and see it for themselves. Similarly, the Big Bang fair is a competition to drive the excitement of this agenda about engineering through schools.

In addition, the new duty on schools to provide independent and impartial advice and guidance to pupils from the age of 12 all the way up to 18 is very important. Ofsted is studying its implementation. It was introduced only last September, and this summer we will have a report from Ofsted on how it is going. So, as I say, the second element is careers advice and getting that right, and engaging with STEMNET in particular to get inspiring people into schools to inspire pupils about engineering.

The third element is reforming the skills system, so that it is more rigorous and more responsive. My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Bedfordshire talked about the need for more rigour in the schools system, but we also need to drive up rigour in the vocational qualifications area. We have done that by supporting and recognising only the highest quality vocational qualifications from 14 to 16 in the new accountability structures—they were set out by the Secretary of State for Education last week—but we also need to do that further up the age range.

In addition, we need to ensure that the skills system is responsive to the needs of employers, which brings us back to employer ownership of skills. In the field of apprenticeships, the Richard review very much drove down that track, and I am looking forward to responding to it with enthusiasm, because the vision set out by Doug Richard was a powerful one that argued for apprenticeships to be much closer to what employers need and for employers to be able to start up skills academies and apprenticeship qualifications. Autotech has started a skills academy. However, more broadly—not just in that single example—we need to have more apprenticeships with the qualifications, as well as the content, designed by employers themselves.

I encourage employers to respond to the Richard review and to engage with it, as we try to improve those qualifications. That is already happening in two areas. First, the Royal Academy of Engineering is introducing four new engineering qualifications for students aged 16, which I think will be very important. We hope that they will be high-quality. Secondly, we are introducing the technical baccalaureate at 18, which is an idea that has cross-party support.

Finally, I urge all Members to get involved in apprenticeship week. It starts on 11 March, and it will be a big, national celebration of what apprenticeships have achieved during their 600-year history and what they can achieve if we can reform them to make them better. I end by reiterating that the passion shown by Members of all parties today, and my passion, is a passion to ensure that we solve this problem, which has bedevilled our country for far too long.

Oral Answers to Questions

Matt Hancock Excerpts

Thursday 7th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

8. What the tobacco industry exports which created 2% of Egypt’s sovereign debt owed to UK Export Finance were used for; when those exports were made; and whether they were to the Government of Egypt or to private companies.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Skills (Matthew Hancock)]

The 2% of Egypt’s sovereign debts relating to tobacco industry exports arose following defaults by the Government of Egypt, who purchased tobacco-processing equipment from UK exporters in the 1980s. The debts were rescheduled in 1987 and 1991 through the Paris Club. The 1991 rescheduling included 50% multilateral debt forgiveness, resulting in the UK forgiving £260 million of debt.

[Mr Hollobone]

Does my hon. Friend share my concern and that of my constituent, Rev. David Milner, and the Jubilee Debt Campaign that Government-backed UK loans and credits to developing countries should be for worthwhile projects based on responsible lending criteria, should have affordable repayment terms, and should not imperil sustainable economic growth in the countries concerned?

[Matthew Hancock]

Of course UK Export Finance should support growth that is sustainable. It has recently published on its website the sovereign debts owed to it by overseas Governments in order to become yet more transparent.

[Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)]

10. What discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Defence on the development of the Government’s strategic defence review.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

13. What steps he has taken to raise awareness of export support services among small and medium-sized enterprises.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Skills (Matthew Hancock)]

We have reformed UK Trade & Investment to ensure that it better supports small and medium-sized enterprises. Some 90% of UKTI’s trade customers are SMEs, and its awareness raising includes a plethora of local activities, including MP constituency trade seminars. One hundred and forty colleagues, including me and my hon. Friend, are holding UKTI trade seminars in their constituencies, and I urge Members from all sides to get involved.

[Jeremy Lefroy]

I thank the Minister for that response. In my experience, and that of my constituents, UK commercial banks could do more to promote trade finance. Does my hon. Friend think they are doing enough to promote services offered by UK trade finance?

[Matthew Hancock]

Not yet, but they are about to. UK Export Finance is establishing a series of regional advisers who through banks, lawyers and accountants will reach more SMEs. That is part and parcel of a widespread message going out to all businesses that if they want help exporting, UKTI is there. The trade seminars in Members’ constituencies will be an important part of that.

[George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that one of the biggest frustrations for small businesses is the Government’s tendency to launch a plethora of schemes and press releases to go with them? I congratulate the Government on holding a bonfire of the brochures in the life sciences sector, and on setting up a dedicated life science investment office that is staffed by two industry experts who support the Department’s generalists in providing targeted advice.

[Matthew Hancock]

My hon. Friend makes that comment far better than I could.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

14. What proportion of new over-18 apprenticeships have been taken by people in existing employment since May 2010.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Skills (Matthew Hancock)]

Apprenticeships are designed to help people develop the skills they need to enter an occupation, and to reskill and progress within a job. The 2011 apprenticeship pay survey found that 77% of apprentices had some experience of work with the same employer before the start of their apprenticeship.

[Kevin Brennan]

Will the Minister undertake to make clear in all statements about apprenticeships how many are new starts in employment, and how many are existing employment? Will he confirm that a lot of the increase in the number of apprenticeships has come from converting the previous Train to Gain scheme into apprenticeships?

[Matthew Hancock]

It is very important not only for people to enter the workplace, but to improve their skills within it. For instance, 99% of those on management apprenticeships had some previous experience of work in the company, which is to be expected. It is about getting people out of unemployment, but also ensuring that their skills improve while they are in a job.

[Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)]

North London chamber of commerce and Enfield’s Johnson Matthey are tonight hosting a local business awareness of apprenticeships programme, and are determined to exceed last year’s recruitment of 107 new apprentices. Will the Minister offer a message of support for tonight’s event and, in particular, for Mr Barry Connelly of Johnson Matthey of Enfield who has led that programme?

[Matthew Hancock]

I would be pleased to support Johnson Matthey and the work it is doing to expand the number of people in apprenticeships, and indeed to increase the quality of apprenticeships. I know that the apprenticeships it offers are of high quality and it is well worth raising awareness of that and getting involved.

[Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)]

The Government’s latest figures show that apprenticeship starts for young people under 19 are down by 15%, and Ministers are complacent about the risks to apprenticeships for over 24-year-olds from their further education loan plans. It is obvious that we urgently need a game- changer for apprenticeships, so why is the Minister still ignoring what the Opposition and now the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee have called for: Government procurement contracts, not least on projects such as high-speed rail, to ensure that companies sign up thousands of new apprenticeships in order to win those contracts?

[Matthew Hancock]

The shadow Minister does rather better when we take politics out of apprenticeships, not least because there has been a record number of apprenticeship starts over the past year. On HS2, I say only that Crossrail—the largest construction project in Europe and signed off by this Government—has precisely the sort of arrangement for which he asks.

[Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)]

Apprenticeships are rightly a focus for the Government, and the extra investment is extremely important and welcome. Does the Minister acknowledge that some companies have a problem when apprentices choose to leave? Will he consider ways in which to compensate the company that puts people through an apprenticeship scheme in the first place?

[Matthew Hancock]

Ensuring the success—wherever possible—of apprenticeships is important. I will look at the issue the hon. Gentleman raises, but the most important thing in ensuring as high a success rate as possible is that the learning within apprenticeships is as relevant as possible to the company involved. We are working to improve that, and I hope that will reduce the incidence of the problem he describes.

[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

Schools and colleges still do not promote apprenticeships for the most able students as an alternative to university. What are the Government doing to rectify that situation?

[Matthew Hancock]

That is an important question. This summer, we introduced destination data that showed not only the proportion of children who go to university but the percentage from each school and college that go into apprenticeships. There is a new, important duty on schools to provide independent and impartial guidance. Ofsted will conduct a thematic review—to report in the summer—to show how progress has been made.

[Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

--- Later in debate ---

[Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con)]

T2. With youth unemployment falling—sadly, it is still too high—is it not more important than ever that we prepare young people to enter work properly with the right skills, on which York college and Askham Bryan college in my constituency are doing great work? How will the proposed traineeship scheme support that?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Skills (Matthew Hancock)]

I am extremely enthusiastic about the proposals for traineeships. They will help to get people who need work preparation, work experience, English and maths and a plethora of other skills ready to take on an apprenticeship and go to work. Colleges such as York college will play an important role in delivering that.

--- Later in debate ---

[John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con)]

T5. I, like many, welcome the substantial increase in apprenticeships. However, it is equally important to encourage as many employers as possible to take on apprentices. Does the Minister agree that giving employers a national insurance holiday during the period of an employee’s apprenticeship would encourage more employers?

[Matthew Hancock]

I certainly agree that encouraging more employers to be involved is critical. The apprenticeship grant for employers in small and medium-sized businesses that have not taken on apprentices before is worth more, at £1,500 per apprentice, than a national insurance holiday. I encourage companies to get involved.

[Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)]

T7. The Secretary of State was briefed about the York central site next to York railway station when he was in my constituency last year, so he knows well its potential to generate growth and jobs, a potential improved by the Government’s welcome decision to join High Speed 2 with the east coast main line at York. Will he meet me and representatives of York city council to discuss what the Government can do to help the council bring the site into use?

Canterbury City Council Bill

Matt Hancock Excerpts

Thursday 31st January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con)]

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) for taking this on. I will not be able to be in the Chamber for most of the debate because of the duties he mentioned. The matter has been running for some years and has cost Canterbury city council a great deal of money—no doubt, it has cost the other councils a great deal of money too. We made concessions on the original Bill in the Commons and further concessions were made in the Lords. I very much hope we can get this business finished this afternoon.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Skills (Matthew Hancock)]

Given the first two speeches, it might be advantageous for the House if I set out the Government’s position. We do not normally seek to intervene on private business, but we have in this case—not on the substance, but to ensure that it is consistent with the EU services directive. We are content for the business to go forward. As it happens, I am a great personal fan of all four cities concerned not least because one is the city of my forefathers—that is my personal position. The Government’s position is that we are content for the Bill to go forward.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Chope]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for reinforcing my point, and if the Minister wishes to intervene, I would be happy to give way.

[Matthew Hancock]

Unusually, my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) accurately represents the Government position. Some aspects of the Pedlars Act are inconsistent with the European services directive. The consultation that will close on 15 February is known to the four authorities involved; they know that a consultation about a change in the national law is taking place. The proposals up for discussion in the consultation include repealing the Pedlars Act and amending the national street trading regime, and the local authorities would need to amend their legislation to take account of any such changes.

[Mr Chope]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention, and I therefore presume that the Government will vote against Lords amendment C9, which was passed in the other place in 2011, as it has been overtaken by events. It tinkers with amendments to the pedlars legislation, but the Minister says the legislation should be completely repealed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Chope]

The issue of depth is also an important one.

[Matthew Hancock]

As my hon. Friend knows, the consultation is ongoing, so there is good reason not to bring forward amendments at this stage. To do so might be seen as prejudging the consultation. The appropriate size of trolleys is part of the consultation, so when the consultation closes, we will bring forward conclusions on what is the appropriate size.

[Mr Chope]

So does my hon. Friend agree that it would be a good idea for the promoters of the Bills, when the appointed time for discussing them today has expired, to seek the indulgence of the Chairman of Ways and Means to ensure that the Bills are not brought back before the House until after the conclusion of the consultation period and until the Government’s position is clearer? That would enable the necessary consequential amendments to be made to the Bills, rather than their being rushed on to the statute book only for the councils that promote them to come back with fresh amendments in the future. Surely he would think that good advice for the promoters of the Bills.

Were our consideration delayed beyond the expiry date of the consultation, would the Government come forward with amendments to Lords amendment C9 so that it properly reflected the Government’s view on the impact of the services directive?

[Matthew Hancock]

As a relatively new Member and Minister, I have much to learn from my hon. Friend about the procedures of this place. His ability to describe as rushed legislation that has so far been six and a bit years in the making, while at the same time speaking at great length to ensure that it is scrutinised properly, is very impressive. What he has said about timing is on the record and these things are always looked at.

[Mr Chope]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his generous comments, and for noting, without expressing an opinion, that the point is now on the record for the promoters of the Bill. It is hard to imagine, but if I were a promoter of a private Bill, I would certainly be keen for everything to be dealt with in one Bill, rather than face a situation in which my Bill was amended and put on the statute book in a form that would not comply with legislation brought forward by the Government in due course. One difficulty the Government may have is that to amend private legislation that is different in different parts of the country could either involve hybrid Bills or rely on individual local authorities to bring forward their own private Bills, with all the scope that would offer for people to raise petitions and so on.

There is a serious issue about the status of pedlars, and what was said in the other place and resulted in these Lords amendments is highly pertinent to today’s discussion. The noble Lord Bilston told their lordships that the Bills were disproportionate, and that there was concern to protect the rights of

“genuine pedlars…who play by the rules, who move around when trading and who do not use oversized stores to display their wares.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 3 December 2012; Vol. 741, c. 443.]

That is why he was keen to include in the Bill provisions to restrict the size of stores that can be used by pedlars, but otherwise enable them to carry on as before. His concerns were reflected by other noble Lords, including the noble Baroness Knight of Collingtree who said that, in essence, and as far as she interpreted the Bills, local authorities were

“seeking the total eradication of pedlars from their streets.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 3 December 2012; Vol. 741, c. 445.]

Their lordships were, I think, wise and helpful in responding to the concerns expressed by pedlars on these issues, but I am not sure that they went as far as they could have done in ensuring that the new regime will work well in practice. The principal reason for saying that is reflected in my amendments to C9, which are centred around whether we should have “designated areas” or streets. Everybody understands a street; it has a name and can be found on a Google map—just to show how modern I am—and that name can be seen at the side of the street as someone walks along. A “designated area”, however, is much vaguer and could be large or small. The most difficult concept for us to deal with in clause 9, as amended, is that subsection (7) now states:

“The council may designate an area for the purposes of this section only if it has reason to believe that it is necessary to do so to ensure road safety or prevent obstruction of the highway.”

I have tabled three amendments to subsection (7). Amendment (e) would leave out “an area” and insert “a street”, and amendment (f) would remove the words

“it has reason to believe”

thereby introducing an objective, rather than subjective, test as to whether the provision is necessary to ensure road safety.