HBOS Reading: Independent Review
John Glen Excerpts(6 years ago)
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The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Christopher. I acknowledge the work of my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) in securing this debate and making an excellent speech, as he has done on several occasions this year in this place, and setting out a case that was well reasoned in many elements. I also pay tribute to the hon. Members for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and for East Lothian (Martin Whitfield), who made fine contributions to the debate.
As we have heard today and in previous debates this year, incidents of banking misconduct and fraud have had a severe impact on some small and medium-sized enterprises. It has been and remains a top priority of mine in office to face up to the issues that have been generated by the cases that have been raised. I am conscious that many of the eight Back-Bench Members who have taken part in this debate will have heard sad and unfortunate stories from their constituents about how the actions of banks have affected them and their businesses. That includes not only the events at HBOS Reading, but the actions of the RBS Global Restructuring Group and the mis-selling of interest rate hedging products.
I begin by reminding Members that we expect the highest standards of behaviour across the financial sector. That is why the Government have introduced a number of necessary changes to restore public trust in financial services, such as the senior managers and certification regime. Before I address the substance of today’s debate, it is important that we pause for a moment to recognise the contribution that banks make to both the UK economy and our society. As the hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Kirsty Blackman) rightly said, it is necessary for banks to lend to SMEs. Lloyds Banking Group has, for example, increased its net lending to SMEs by £3 billion since 2014 and plans to triple that by 2020. Lloyds is the market leader in providing basic bank accounts, which help vulnerable customers, and its “Helping Britain Prosper” plan sets out a number of commitments on behaviour, diversity and charitable support.
However, I recognise that there has been a great deal of justified anger, within Parliament and beyond, regarding the fraud that was perpetrated against small businesses through the actions of individuals at the HBOS Reading branch. It is important to remember that the events at HBOS Reading constituted criminal activity. As such, it was right that those responsible were brought to justice, as my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton pointed out. The FCA continues to conduct an enforcement investigation into the events surrounding the discovery of misconduct at HBOS Reading, resuming an investigation placed on hold at the request of Thames Valley police. I will be keenly following the progress and outcome of the investigation.
In addition, Lloyds Banking Group has appointed Dame Linda Dobbs, a retired High Court judge, as an independent legal expert to consider whether issues relating to HBOS Reading were investigated and appropriately reported to authorities at the time by Lloyds Banking Group, following its acquisition of HBOS. It will consider issues raised by the Project Lord Turnbull report referred to by my hon. Friend. Dame Linda’s findings will then be shared with the FCA.
It is right that Lloyds set up a compensation scheme for businesses affected by the events at HBOS Reading, overseen by Professor Russel Griggs. That scheme has seen offers made to all customers within its scope, with 90% of customers accepting the offer. However, I acknowledge the concerns that Members have raised about the Griggs scheme. Those concerns have certainly been heard, and I am pleased to announce that Lloyds has agreed with the FCA that Lloyds will commission a post-completion review to quality-assure the methodology and process of the Griggs scheme. [Interruption.]
Overseen by an independent person, that review will go above and beyond a normal lessons-learned exercise. The independence of the person appointed to lead the review is vital. In particular, I would expect that person not to have been employed by Lloyds in any way, and to be able to demonstrate complete operational independence from Lloyds. I am pleased that Lloyds has committed to publishing the review once it has concluded, and I welcome Lloyds’ commitment to implementing any recommendations it produces. I have been consistently clear that it is vital that we get the right processes and procedures in place, to ensure that SMEs can obtain fair redress and resolve disputes with their banks.
Mr Vaizey
I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) will wind up the debate, so I feel a bit premature intervening on the Minister, who is a good friend. However, he will have heard the reaction in the Gallery to his announcement. It seems to me that it is just a re-wrapping of the current problem. Perhaps he will meet some of the Members in the Chamber, and some of the business owners affected, to hear and see what has actually been going on.
John Glen
I will happily meet my right hon. Friend—a distinguished former Minister who has been fighting on these matters for many years—and my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton. Of course I acknowledge the cynicism and concern of those present about the independence of this mechanism, but, as I said, Lloyds has committed to publishing the independent review once it is concluded and implementing any recommendations that it produces. My officials have been working with the FCA to ensure that that comes to pass. I take the concerns about how it progresses very seriously, and will happily meet Members to discuss them.
In the recent Budget, the Chancellor stated the Government’s support for the FCA’s plans to expand eligibility to complain to the Financial Ombudsman Service to small businesses as well as micro-enterprises. Expanding the remit of the FOS will ensure that from 1 April 2019 well over 99% of all UK businesses will have access to fast, free and fair dispute resolution. I am aware that concerns have been raised about the capability of the FOS to adjudicate effectively in such cases, and I discussed those concerns with the Chair of the Treasury Committee just last week.
The FOS has announced its plans to create a ring-fenced, specialist unit to take on the additional cases, and for that unit to be supported by a panel of external SME experts. I welcome those plans, and I will visit the FOS early in the new year to check on how they are progressing. The FCA has also committed to reviewing the expansion of the FOS remit within two years of its coming into force, in addition to its usual oversight processes. I trust that that will reassure some hon. Members who have voiced concerns about the capability of the FOS.
I have also been clear that banks need to work hard to restore businesses’ trust in their institutions. That is why I welcome the banking industry’s recent commitment to establishing two independent voluntary ombudsman schemes, in response to Simon Walker’s review of dispute resolution for SMEs. One of those schemes will address complaints from SMEs with a turnover of £6.5 million to £10 million. The other will address unresolved historical complaints from SMEs that have not already been through a formal process.
I am pleased that the banking industry has set out the key principles for the operation of the scheme to address unresolved historical complaints. Independence, expertise, transparency and the right to an appeal are all hallmarks of a fair and robust process, and it is right that they underpin any approach to dispute resolution. I welcome the banking industry’s commitment to having those schemes up and running by September 2019. I look forward to seeing progress on establishing the implementation steering group very soon, and I am pleased that representatives from the all-party parliamentary group will have a role in that process.
The benefits of an ombudsman-style approach are clear, but I recognise that some hon. Members have advocated again today for the establishment of a tribunal to resolve disputes between banks and SMEs. An ombudsman-style approach can deliver fast, free and fair dispute resolution for SMEs, making decisions based on what is fair and reasonable. I believe that a tribunal, on the other hand, would need the regulation of SME lending, potentially restricting SMEs’ access to credit. It would still require SMEs to pay for expensive legal expertise, and it could make decisions only on a strict legal basis. That is why I believe that an expanded FOS remit, alongside the establishment of further independent ombudsman schemes as announced by UK Finance, will ensure the best outcomes for SMEs.
I highlight again that the Government, financial regulators and industry have done considerable work to tackle bad practice and to ensure that SMEs have access to appropriate dispute resolution and redress mechanisms. The all-party group on fair business banking and finance has been a key part of that work, and I sincerely commend its determination in the work that it has undertaken to ensure that SMEs are fairly treated.
The events at HBOS Reading constituted criminal activity. As such, it was right that those responsible were brought to justice. However, more clearly needs to be done to restore SMEs’ trust in the financial services industry. From the numerous meetings that I have had this year with a wide range of stakeholders, it is clear that we are all determined to deliver the best outcomes for SMEs.
I will closely follow the review of the Griggs scheme. I understand the concerns, but it is a significant step forward that that review will take place, and I will monitor the implementation of both the expanded FOS remit and the industry’s independent voluntary ombudsman schemes. I am confident that we have the right regulatory regime and dispute resolution mechanisms in place for the future. Events similar to those at HBOS Reading should not occur again, and I will do everything in my power in office to ensure that we learn the lessons from those appalling incidents years ago.
Draft Markets in Financial Instruments (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018
John Glen Excerpts(6 years ago)
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The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Markets in Financial Instruments (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018.
May I say what a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Sharma? The Treasury has been undertaking a programme of legislation to ensure that if the UK leaves the EU without a deal or an implementation period, there continues to be a functioning legislative and regulatory regime for financial services in the UK. The Treasury is laying before Parliament statutory instruments under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 to deliver that, and several of them have already been debated in this place, and in the House of Lords. The SI being debated today is part of that programme. It was debated in the House of Lords on 28 November.
The regulations address legal deficiencies in the EU markets in financial instruments regulation and its accompanying directive; in the UK legislation implementing the directive; in other related domestic financial services legislation; and in EU delegated regulations. I will refer to those collectively as MiFID II. The instrument is extremely important for the financial services sector, as without it, essential components of financial services legislation would become inoperable, should the UK leave the EU without a deal. The approach taken in the legislation aligns with that of other SIs being laid before Parliament under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018: it provides continuity by maintaining existing legislation at the point of exit, but amending deficiencies where necessary and introducing transitional provisions to ensure that it works effectively in a no-deal context.
MiFID II is a significant set of EU legislation that regulates the buying, selling and organised trading of shares, bonds and more complex financial instruments. It governs the practices of investment firms, exchanges and portfolio managers among others, and came into effect across the EU on 3 January 2018. One feature of MiFID II is that it requires buyers and sellers on financial markets to disclose data, such as price and volume information for their trades, to bring transparency to the process of price formation in financial markets.
Exemptions from those requirements are available in several cases, and formulae are used to calculate whether a trade may fall under an exemption. They are generally specified by reference to a proportion of pan-EU trading data. However, in a no-deal scenario, the UK may no longer have access to the pan-EU data that the European Securities and Markets Authority uses to calculate the appropriate thresholds. Calculating those thresholds at a UK-only level may create different thresholds in the UK and the EU. That may create opportunities for regulatory arbitrage and market disruption.
The instrument therefore grants the Financial Conduct Authority new flexibilities and a set of temporary powers, which will last for a period of up to a maximum of four years from exit day, to address certain operational difficulties that the FCA may face after exit. The powers will allow the FCA some controlled flexibility over how the MiFID II transparency regime is operated. The FCA’s temporary powers are required because the FCA will not be immediately ready on exit day to operate the transparency regime independently. One challenge facing the FCA is that it does not at present collect all the data that it will require to operate the transparency system on exit day. The FCA will need time to build appropriate IT systems to collect the data required to operate the transparency regime.
The FCA will also need to consider market movements in the immediate aftermath of the UK’s exit from the EU before it can estimate an equilibrium on which to base certain adjustments to the UK’s transparency regime. Accordingly, the FCA’s powers will include the ability to freeze certain pre-exit-day transparency calibrations, so that they have continued binding effect on exit day and for a period thereafter, until such time as the FCA can collect and produce its own data.
The FCA will also have temporary powers to suspend certain transparency provisions during the transitional period. For instance, it will have the power to stop the dark trading of shares, to ensure that such dark trading does not unduly harm price formation in UK markets. To be clear, the intention in granting the temporary powers is to enable the FCA to operate the transparency regime in the UK from exit day and beyond.
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)
I am sorry, but I have not read the regulations, so the Minister may be able to help me. Do they also provide the FCA with the additional skills and resources it will need to undertake that rigorous and important role?
John Glen
The hon. Lady is absolutely right to draw attention to the significant resources that will be required. The FCA has been in conversation with my officials in the Treasury, and we are reassured that it is in a position to do the work, and that it can do so under the provisions of the levy that it has.
Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con)
Will the Minister confirm, for the avoidance of all doubt, that all the powers in the regulations are temporary and time-limited, and that the powers do not give rise to the right to increase taxation?
Mr Sam Gyimah (East Surrey) (Con)
If the powers are temporary, it would be helpful to know what kind of regime we would have in the long term in the event of a no deal, and whether that would still make us competitive in this area.
John Glen
This SI onshores the existing MiFID II regime under the terms of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. Circumstances that the Government do not wish for—no deal—would clearly necessitate additional legislation in the next Session. I am working with officials to develop that legislation, so that we would maintain the most competitive regime possible in a no-deal situation, but that falls without the scope of this statutory instrument.
John Glen
In a no-deal situation, there will be a variety of scenarios with respect to the nature of our relationship with the EU; the calibration of our long-term competitive regime for financial services would depend on the calibration of that relationship, and legislation would be brought forward in the light of that.
I will make progress. To be clear, the intention in granting these temporary powers is to enable the FCA to operate the transparency regime in the UK from exit day and beyond, and to maintain existing outcomes, as far as that is reasonably possible. The 2018 Act does not empower the Government to make non-deficiency-related policy changes to EU legislation. If the Treasury is satisfied that the FCA is ready to undertake its transparency functions, the four-year transitional period may be ended earlier by the Treasury by the issue of a direction that must be laid before both Houses and published.
Some longer-term flexibility will also be given to the FCA to reflect the fact that it may not have access to pan-EU trading data after exit, and therefore may need to use reliable trading data from other countries when calculating certain transparency thresholds.
Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab)
Given the extensive nature of the measure, could the Minister outline what further resources he has made available to the FCA to deal with this? Is there some sort of impact assessment of the FCA’s capability?
John Glen
We have been working closely with the FCA for several months since the SI was published on 5 October. The FCA has discretion to increase its levy if it needs additional resources. That is not something it has communicated to us up to this point, but we have an active, ongoing weekly dialogue. That is a matter for it to bring forward in due course if necessary.
The report of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, Sub-Committee B, which was published on 1 November, focused primarily on the transparency regime. It mentioned the adequacy of resourcing for the FCA to carry out its new responsibilities—an issue that has already been raised. The Treasury has been working closely with the FCA to deliver the programme of legislation. It is clearly important that the regulators be adequately resourced to deal with the impact of the UK’s withdrawal from the EU. I reiterate that I have full confidence that the FCA has the expertise required to run an effective transparency regime in the UK, irrespective of the outcome of the negotiations with the EU.
The FCA will also publish a statement of policy about how the temporary powers will be used before exit day. That statement of policy and any subsequent changes to it will come into effect only if the Treasury does not raise an objection to it on specified grounds. The Treasury may object to an FCA statement if it would potentially prejudice an international agreement that the UK hoped to reach, or if the Treasury believes that it may lead to a breach in international obligations. In a no-deal scenario, it is important that the Treasury is able to manage negotiations with international partners effectively. This objection mechanism is a sensible way of ensuring that.
Parliament will, of course, be able to scrutinise and question Treasury Ministers and the FCA further on their approach to the temporary powers—for example, through the Select Committee system—as Parliament does now. The SLSC report also noted that it would have been helpful if the FCA’s policy statement on the use of these powers had been made available to the House before this debate. That has not been possible, given the time the FCA needs to consider the drafting of such a statement. However, the FCA has provided assurance that a statement of policy will be ready at least four weeks before exit if the UK leaves the EU without a deal.
I turn to the other issues in this instrument. Currently, certain regulatory functions under MiFID II are carried out by EU authorities—principally, the European Commission and the European Securities and Markets Authority. The Commission and ESMA will, naturally, have no mandate to carry out these functions once the UK leaves the EU. Therefore, this instrument transfers the functions of the Commission to the Treasury and ESMA’s functions to the FCA and the Bank of England. It also transfers responsibility for making binding technical standards that specify the detailed regulations that firms must abide by from ESMA to the FCA, the Bank of England or the Prudential Regulation Authority. That is consistent with the approach set out in the Financial Regulators’ Powers (Technical Standards etc.) (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018, which were debated in this House on 10 October 2018.
This instrument also deletes provisions in retained EU law that would become redundant when the UK leaves the EU, such as requirements regarding automatic recognition of an action by an EU body, and other references to EU bodies and EU member states. In line with the Government’s overall approach, this instrument removes obligations on UK authorities to co-operate and share information with European economic area authorities, although this does not preclude UK authorities from co-operating and sharing information with EEA authorities on a discretionary basis.
Another important set of revisions concerns the treatment of third-country regimes. Under MiFID II, certain elements of a third country’s regulatory and supervisory regime may be deemed by the European Commission to be equivalent to the requirements of MiFID. For example, under MiFID II, trading in certain instruments must take place on recognised markets. If a third country is deemed equivalent for that purpose, MiFID II allows trading to take place on those third-country markets. To ensure that the MiFID II equivalence regimes can continue to operate effectively in the UK after exit, the Treasury will take on the European Commission’s function of making equivalence decisions for third country regimes. Existing Commission equivalence decisions are also incorporated into UK law so they will continue to apply to those third countries.
Debbie Abrahams
I extend my earlier question to the capability in the Treasury. Are there sufficient skills and resources in the Treasury to undertake its new and additional roles?
John Glen
Absolutely. I can confirm that those skills exist. New equivalence decisions issued by the Treasury will be laid before Parliament and will be scrutinisable.
To provide as much certainty to business as possible, the Government have introduced a temporary permissions regime, as set out in the EEA Passport Rights (Amendment, etc., and Transitional Provisions) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018, which were made on 6 November. That will enable relevant EEA firms operating in the UK through a passport to continue their activities in the UK for a limited period after exit day, and will allow them to apply for UK authorisation, or transfer business to a UK entity, as necessary.
This instrument makes special provisions for EEA firms that intend to operate in the UK under the temporary permissions regime by ensuring that they will not be deemed in breach of the UK’s MiFID II rules if they can demonstrate that they comply with corresponding provisions in the EU’s MiFID II rules. This is necessary because, in the absence of such provisions, legal conflicts could arise that may impede the activities of firms operating under the temporary permissions regime in the UK in certain areas, and that may require them to comply with duplicative regulations.
This provision will apply only to certain provisions of MiFID II during the temporary permissions regime, and only where the EEA MiFID II requirement has equivalent effect to the UK MiFID II requirement. This instrument will also put in place transitional arrangements for data reporting service providers, which are entities that report details of transactions to regulators and publish information under the transparency regime.
Finally, under the transaction reporting regime in MiFID II, investment firms are required to submit a report to their national regulatory authorities following the execution of a trade. Those transaction reports are used by regulators to detect and prevent market abuse. UK branches of EEA firms do not send reports to the FCA, but rather send them to their home regulator, which can then share them between EU regulators. As we will no longer be part of that system, the draft regulations will require UK branches of EEA firms to report to the FCA, in the same way that UK branches of non-EEA firms are required to do. In addition, this instrument provides that firms must continue to report on trades in financial instruments admitted to trading, or traded, on trading venues in the UK and in the EU. That will maintain the existing scope for the monitoring of markets by the FCA and will minimise disruption and adjustment costs for firms.
The Treasury has been working closely with the FCA, the Bank of England and industry bodies—representing large and small firms—in the drafting of these regulations. The Treasury published the instrument in draft, along with an explanatory policy note, on 5 October 2018 to maximise transparency to Parliament, industry and the public, ahead of laying it before Parliament. Regulators and industry bodies have generally been supportive of the provisions in this SI.
To conclude, the Government believe that it is necessary to ensure that MiFID II continues to function appropriately if the UK leaves the EU without a deal or an implementation period. I hope that colleagues will join me in supporting the draft regulations. I commend them to the Committee.
John Glen
I listened carefully to the Opposition’s remarks, and I will try hard to give a thorough response. Before I get into the detail, it is important to set out clearly that this programme of 70 SIs is about ensuring that if there is an outcome that the Government do not want—no deal—we have a comprehensive regime in place; that is something that we are determined to deliver across financial services.
I listened carefully to what the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde and others said about where the debate should take place. I acknowledge that this is complex legislation, but the terms of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act and the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments say that it is within our powers to conduct the process in this way, in this place. I recognise that that is disputed, but all I can do is draw attention to the Joint Committee’s judgment.
I will need to write to the hon. Gentleman on the issue of inducement, but the point of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act is to maintain the standards that applied while we were in the EU. I reiterate that business decisions are not in my gift as Economic Secretary, but all SIs are approved on the Floor of the House.
A point was made about Keeling schedules. The Treasury will not produce Keeling schedules for anything else. This is undeniably complex legislation. We will produce Keeling schedules in a number of instances. They are internal documents that have not been sufficiently validated for publication, but Parliament decided when it passed the European Union (Withdrawal) Act that powers could be used in that way to prepare us for exit.
On the transitional period being four years, it took approximately four years to develop the detail of the current transparency system and to put in place the systems needed to operate it. The calibration of the current regime is based on EU data. If, in the circumstances following the UK’s exit from the EU, it is not possible or desirable to use such data, the regime will need to be recalibrated to ensure that it achieves its intended effects. That will involve changes to the binding technical standards, the FCA developing the necessary IT infrastructure to operate the regime, and industry having adequate time to implement changes, hence the length of time.
The experience of implementing the current regime taught us that it is necessary to take the time to get things right, rather than rushing complicated policy and operational challenges through. However, the Treasury can end the transitional period at an earlier date if it considers those processes to have been completed, and that the FCA has the ability to run the MiFID II transparency regime before the end of the four-year period.
A point was made about the transitional regime reducing the transparency of trading within the UK, given the FCA’s powers to suspend certain transparency obligations, such as those applying to non-equities. The FCA has the power to suspend specified transparency obligations in respect of certain instruments during the transitional period. For instance, the FCA may suspend pre and post-trading transparency obligations in respect of bonds and structured finance products during the transitional period. It can use those powers only where that would advance the FCA’s integrity objective—and there are other constraints on its use of the powers. It is not intended or envisaged that the FCA would use those powers to effect a general or long-term suspension of transparency requirements in the UK; it would use them to match a suspension of those requirements in the EU. Without those powers, a suspension in the EU could create regulatory arbitrage between the UK and the EU—something that we wish to avoid.
I acknowledge the points made by the hon. Member for Glasgow Central about the costs of regulatory and IT processes and the number of institutions affected—3,300 in the UK and 1,650 in the EEA. Of course, the assessment sets out the one-off costs and the ongoing costs. I accept that it would be preferable not do have to do this, but I point out that those sums would be divided over a quite large number of institutions.
As to the appropriateness of delegation, essentially the decision is made on the appropriate functional expertise. The FCA and the Treasury worked very closely leading up to the publication on 5 October. Firms are supportive, and they seek the continuity and orderly market functioning that are imperative for the City and the economy. I accept overall that the process is not perfect, but we have undertaken it in good faith, to establish a functioning regime in a no-deal situation.
I hope that that answers the questions that have been raised. The Government believe that the regulations are necessary, and I hope that the Committee will support them.
Question put.
Draft Capital Requirements (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018
Draft Bank Recovery and Resolution and Miscellaneous Provisions (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018
John Glen Excerpts(6 years ago)
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The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Capital Requirements (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to consider the draft Bank Recovery and Resolution and Miscellaneous Provisions (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018.
John Glen
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Buck. As has been said before, Her Majesty’s Treasury, as part of preparations for the UK’s withdrawal from the EU, is laying statutory instruments under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 to ensure that there continues to be a functioning legislative and regulatory regime for financial services in the UK in the event of a no-deal scenario. That includes the two SIs we are debating today, which will fix deficiencies in UK law relating to the UK’s prudential regime for credit institutions and for bank resolution. As with other SIs that the Treasury has laid and debated under the 2018 Act, they are designed to provide continuity at the point of exit by maintaining existing legislation, but amending it where necessary to ensure that it works effectively in a no-deal context.
The first SI being considered today concerns the prudential rules that apply to banks, investment firms and building societies under the framework set by the EU capital requirements regulation and capital requirements directive. The second SI relates to the bank recovery and resolution directive, which sets out requirements for ensuring that bank failures can be managed in an orderly way and provides a common EU framework for firm resolution. In a no-deal scenario, the UK would be outside the European economic area and the EU financial services framework. The SIs will make amendments to retained EU law so that the legislation would continue to function effectively in a no-deal scenario.
The draft capital requirements regulations will make amendments to the retained EU capital requirements regulation and the domestic secondary legislation that implemented the EU capital requirements directive. The draft regulations will make the following principal amendments. First, they will make changes to the group consolidation regime for liquidity and capital. Current EU legislation allows EU banking groups to report a single set of figures for their activities across the EU. The SI will amend those requirements, so that they operate at UK level only. That will not affect the application of consolidated capital requirements, which are already calculated and reported on a national basis, but it will introduce an additional layer of liquidity consolidation in the UK, as liquidity is currently consolidated at EU level.
Secondly, the draft capital requirements regulations will remove the preferential capital treatment available for exposures to certain EU institutions and assets, including sovereign debt. For example, the EU capital requirements regulation does not require firms to hold capital for EU sovereign debt, because it rates those exposures with a zero risk weighting. That is to incentivise investment in certain EU asset classes. In line with our general approach, we will not grant the EU unilateral preferential treatment in the absence of an assessment of equivalence after exit day. We would therefore not automatically continue with the regime of preferential capital treatment for EU assets.
The draft capital requirements regulations will also remove the requirement for UK regulators to seek approval from EU institutions for the use of macroprudential tools to deal with systemic risk, including action that may need to be taken in a financial crisis.
Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)
My understanding is that during the implementation period, we will continue to take the EU laws in this area, so the CRR will be part of our law anyway, and we will look to maintain that position until we reach a new agreement. Is the Minister saying that if we had a no-deal exit, we would do something different and we would not want to retain the position in that way while we negotiated a Canada deal or something of that sort?
John Glen
I am grateful for my right hon. and learned Friend’s intervention. What we would do in a no-deal scenario in respect of CRR II, which is in flight at the moment within the EU, would be to use the Financial Services (Implementation of Legislation) Bill, which came before the House of Lords last week and will hopefully come to the Commons at some point in late January. That would give us discretion on how or whether to implement the file that would then land after our exit from the EU, or part of that file, based on what makes sense for the UK economy. We have listed in that Bill all in-flight files, and we would make a decision on the suitability of its inclusion in UK law at a future point following our exit.
To conclude on the first SI, removing the requirement to seek approval from EU institutions is necessary so that UK regulators are able to continue to exercise the macroprudential functions that Parliament has given them. Effective exercise of those functions is essential to maintaining the stability of the UK financial system.
Moving on to the second statutory instrument, the bank recovery and resolution SI will amend the Banking Act 2009 and related domestic and retained EU legislation, with the following principal amendments. First, the draft regulations will amend the scope of the UK’s third-country resolution recognition framework to include EEA-led resolutions. This will ensure that in a no-deal scenario, the same approach will be followed for EEA countries and other third countries in recognising third-country resolution actions. We have that arrangement now with the USA, for example, and we would have to treat EU countries in the same way, or similarly. The UK’s approach to recognising third-country resolution actions has been and will continue to be consistent with our G20 commitments.
The refusal of the UK to recognise a third-country resolution action is only permitted where the Bank of England and the Treasury are satisfied that one or more statutory grounds for refusal exist. Those grounds are: first, that recognition would have an adverse effect on UK financial stability; secondly, that it is necessary for the Bank of England to achieve one or more of its special resolution objectives; thirdly, that a third-country resolution action treats UK creditors less favourably; fourthly, that recognition would have material fiscal implications for the UK; or fifthly, that recognition would be unlawful under the Human Rights Act 1998.
Secondly, the bank recovery and resolution SI will remove deficient references that require UK regulators to follow the specific operational and procedural mechanisms set out in the bank recovery and resolution directive to co-operate with EEA authorities. The removal of these references will not, however, prevent UK regulators from choosing to co-operate with their EEA counterparts after exit. UK regulators will remain able to share information with EEA authorities in the same way that they currently do with authorities in third countries, such as the United States. Additionally, the UK will continue to participate in international crisis management groups, which enhance co-operation between home and host authorities of systemically important banks. Finally, the draft regulations address deficient cross-references to the bank recovery and resolution directive in UK legislation, and ensure that delegated regulations retained by the European Union (Withdrawal) Act continue to be workable following exit.
In line with the approach the Government are taking across all files laid under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act, both SIs transfer a number of functions currently within the remit of EU authorities, in particular the European Banking Authority and the European Securities and Markets Authority, to the relevant UK bodies. Those functions, such as the development of detailed technical rules on certain provisions of the regulations, will now be carried out by appropriate UK authorities, namely the Financial Conduct Authority, the Prudential Regulation Authority or the Bank of England. This is appropriate, given the regulators’ expertise in prudential and resolution policy and in the supervision of global firms. The regulators are currently undertaking public consultations on the changes they propose to make to binding technical standards. The SIs further confer regulation-making powers on the Treasury to replace delegated powers that were previously conferred on the European Commission, in line with the approach taken across other Treasury legislation.
To summarise, the Government believe that both SIs are needed to ensure that the regulatory regime applying to banks, building societies and investment firms works effectively if the UK leaves the EU without a deal or an implementation period. I hope that colleagues across the Committee will join me in supporting the regulations, which I commend to the Committee.
John Glen
I thank the hon. Members for Stalybridge and Hyde and for Glasgow Central for their questions, and acknowledge concerns about the rigour of the process. All I can say to the Committee is that I am doing everything I can to ensure that it is as rigorous as possible.
For both statutory instruments, there was significant engagement with industry and the regulators. The draft Capital Requirements (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018 were laid on 21 August, with an explanatory note seeking to draw out concerns. The draft Bank Recovery and Resolution and Miscellaneous Provisions (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018 were laid on 8 October for consideration.
The hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde accurately characterised the global drivers of the regulations. I want to address the specific concern he raised about the directive on the change in capital requirements consequent on our leaving in a no-deal scenario. He is right to say that the capital requirements regulation specifies how much capital and liquidity firms must hold against different types of exposures. He is right that certain EU assets are subject to a 0% risk weight, meaning that no capital needs to be held against those exposures. However, in a no-deal scenario, the UK will treat the EU as a third country and vice versa.
Without an assessment of equivalence between the EU countries and the UK, the EU would end preferential capital treatment for UK exposures, so it has been Government policy not to grant the EU unilateral preferential treatment in the absence of equivalence, and the SI makes the appropriate amendments to ensure that EU sovereign debt is no longer treated more favourably than other assets of a similar nature.
John Glen
Perhaps I may just make the next point, and see whether it addresses the hon. Gentleman’s concern.
EU sovereign debt will none the less retain the low risk ratings that sovereign debt typically attracts. In addition, we are introducing transitional powers for the regulators to phase in the new requirements. That is up to two years, mitigating much of the impact.
Jonathan Reynolds
I am grateful for that clarification, and for the second point in particular. I understand the political case for not having a unilateral preferential regime that is not reciprocated by the EU. However, when we think about all the market volatility and stress that no deal gives us, to reclassify the capital adequacy of UK resident banks feels quite difficult, even if it is phased in over a period of two years, which is not that significant to be honest.
Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con)
May I say how delighted I am that the Government are taking an approach that allows discretion? That was one enormous problem at the time of the financial crash, which was also a sovereign debt crisis. The hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde forgot to mention who was in charge at the time. That crisis was exemplified perhaps most clearly by Gordon Brown standing outside the shiny new Lehman Brothers office when it opened, shortly before the crash. The capital regime was so inadequate at the time under that regime—
Mr Bacon
Yes indeed. Part of the problem with the sovereign debt crisis—perhaps the biggest problem—was the equal treatment of lots of different kinds of sovereign assets, such as Greek Government bonds, when in fact they were nothing like equal. That led to the distortion that helped to cause the problem.
John Glen
The Government and regulators are clear on the imperative to work closely with industry to ensure that change is not disruptive for firms. UK regulators will be given the ability to phase changes in over the next two years. We will treat all third countries similarly, which means, to answer the point made by the hon. Member for Glasgow Central, continuing to co-operate through international crisis management groups to plan and resolve issues with cross-border firms. The UK’s participation, and enthusiasm to participate, in such forums will be undiminished. Nothing in the draft regulations will change how the UK co-operates with third countries.
The hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde raised the bank recovery and resolution SI and concerns around the appearance of disengagement. There is no intention whatsoever for the UK Government or regulators to be isolated in any way. We will continue to participate. However, these steps are necessary to domesticise our regulations in the context of a no-deal scenario.
The hon. Member for Glasgow Central has on several occasions, and perfectly sensibly, mentioned the regulatory burden and additional costs. She is right to draw attention to the £1.7 million assessment for the capital requirements SI and the £400,000 for the bank recovery SI. I point out to her that those are one-off familiarisation costs. For the 1,000 companies she mentioned, they are one-off costs of around £1,700 and £1,200 for some of the very biggest institutions. I accept that it would be desirable for them to not have those costs, but it will be necessary in a situation in which we do not secure a deal.
Sir Oliver Heald
If we were to import all European law into our law in a form that was ineffective and hopeless, would there be costs to the City and to our financial institutions of having an ineffective system? It is all very well for the hon. Member for Glasgow Central to criticise the cost of the regulations, but without them we would not have a system that works.
Alison Thewliss
Will the Minister tell me a bit more about how the costs have been communicated to the 1,009 businesses and the 350 businesses that will be affected?
John Glen
As I mentioned, the regulations were laid on 21 August and 8 October. There was engagement with industry during that intervening period, and those costs will have been made clear during that time. We have tried to be as transparent as possible and to engage as closely as possible with different trade bodies and, through them, with firms, so that there is an understanding of the costs.
The Government believe that the regulations are needed to ensure that prudential and resolution regimes applying to banks, building societies and investment firms work effectively if the UK leaves the EU without a deal or an implementation period. We do not want to lose the progress in establishing these regimes that we have made over the last 10 years. I hope the Committee has found this sitting informative and will join me in supporting the regulations.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the Committee has considered the draft Capital Requirements (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018.
Draft Bank Recovery and Resolution and Miscellaneous Provisions (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018
Resolved,
That the Committee has considered the draft Bank Recovery and Resolution and Miscellaneous Provisions (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018.—(John Glen.)
Draft Privacy and Electronic Communications (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2018
John Glen Excerpts(6 years ago)
General CommitteesRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Privacy and Electronic Communications (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2018.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship again, Mr Austin. For most people in the UK, pensions are their largest financial asset, but that, unfortunately, makes pensions an attractive target for fraudsters. Pension scams can have a significant and devastating impact on people’s lives. Scams can lead people to face retirement with a greatly reduced income and unable to build their pension savings back up.
From recent debates in the other place, I am aware of the strength of feeling on tackling cold calling. As well as being a nuisance, cold calling is the most common method used to initiate pension fraud. According to Citizens Advice’s most recent statistics, 97% of pension fraud cases brought to it originated from a cold call. That is why the Government are taking action to ban pensions cold calling.
Before I discuss the regulations, I will briefly explain how the current system works. The Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations 2003—PECR—permit firms to cold call consumers for marketing purposes, subject to a couple of exceptions, which are where the consumer has notified the caller that they do not wish to receive such calls, or has listed their number on the telephone preference service. The current regime, therefore, permits cold calling unless a consumer has proactively opted out.
The purpose of these regulations is to amend PECR in order to much more tightly restrict firms from cold calling consumers about their pensions. The regulations do that by creating an explicit opt-in regime that prohibits all such calls unless one of two tightly drafted exemptions applies and the caller is authorised by the Financial Conduct Authority or is the trustee or manager of a pensions scheme. The exemptions mean that the ban does not have an unnecessary or disproportionate impact on legitimate activities.
It is important to highlight that the exemptions do not apply to so-called introducers, which are the marketing firms that seek to establish leads that they then pass to financial advice firms. Introducers undertake the majority of pensions cold calling. Under the proposed regulations, there are no circumstances under which introducers are permitted to call consumers about their pensions.
The first exemption applies where the consumer has given consent to the caller to receive direct marketing calls about their pension. It has been included so that consumers can seek information on pension products. The regulations are fully in line with the general data protection regulation, which sets a high standard for consent. Consent must be actively given—for example, the use of pre-ticked boxes is not permitted.
The second exemption applies where the consumer has an existing client relationship with the caller, such that they would expect to receive such calls. It means that individuals can receive information about investment opportunities from firms with which they have a client relationship.
To help to future-proof the regulations, the definition of “direct marketing in relation to pension schemes” has been drafted widely, which will help to ensure that we capture new activities that may evolve in future, as well as activities that we know scammers already use.
Martin Whitfield (East Lothian) (Lab)
On the changing approach taken by the scam companies, will the regulations cover the use of texting and contact through messaging? I know from constituents’ experiences that a response by way of text is deemed to be consent and they then get the phone call.
John Glen
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making that point. The pensions cold calling ban does not include direct marketing via texts and emails, because they are already closely restricted under PECR. Under regulation 22, texts and emails are restricted unless consumers have given consent. That is an opt-in regime.
Martin Whitfield
To pursue that point, is the Minister saying that a response to a text is not deemed to be consent for a subsequent phone call?
John Glen
Those regulations deal with that matter; I am dealing today with the banning of cold calling. I will move on to enforcement, and then I will be happy to respond.
The ban will be enforced by the Information Commissioner’s Office, a world leader in the protection of information rights. The ICO’s tough enforcement powers include fining offenders up to £500,000. I am also pleased to say that from Monday next week, 17 December, directors of companies making unlawful calls may also be personally liable for penalties of up to £500,000.
Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)
The Minister says that named directors “may” be liable. Will he give us clarity on what “may” means in that context?
John Glen
What I mean is that there is scope for them to be fined up to £500,000, according to the breach that they have committed. That will be a matter for the ICO to adjudicate.
I would like to take this opportunity to thank industry and charity stakeholders for their engagement with the consultation over the summer. As a consequence, I am pleased to say that we have a set of regulations that our stakeholders can get behind. I emphasise that the Government do not consider this ban to be “job done”. We understand that scammers are skilled at adapting to circumstances and that scams are constantly evolving. As such, we will continue our efforts to understand and take action on future scams.
Project Bloom, a cross-Government taskforce established in 2012 and currently led by the Pensions Regulator, continues its work to tackle scams and identify emerging threats. In addition, the Government are committed to limiting the statutory right to transfer, to help prevent funds transferring from occupational pension schemes into fraudulent ones.
In conclusion, the Government believe that the proposed legislation is necessary to help protect consumers from pension fraudsters, and I hope colleagues will join me in supporting the regulations, which I commend to the Committee.
Anneliese Dodds (Oxford East) (Lab/Co-op)
I am grateful to the Minister for explaining the rationale for the measures. Of course, we have talked in previous Committees about other statutory instruments arising out of them. This is a significant problem; I understand that more than 11 million pensioners, in particular, are being targeted annually by cold callers, with fraudsters making 250 million calls a year, which is the equivalent of eight per second. That is a huge problem, and behind those figures there is a significant human impact on some vulnerable people.
As the Minister will be aware, during the Committee stage of the Financial Guidance and Claims Act 2018 the Labour party called for the FCA, rather than the ICO, to be given functions in respect of the ban on unsolicited direct marketing relating to pensions. The FCA has much stronger powers than the ICO and can strike off members who contravene the rules. We also called for an offence to be created for the use of information obtained through cold calling.
Will the Minister explain his response to those points? I have looked through the accompanying material and it is not crystal clear to me which body will be responsible for enforcing the ban, or whether the respective powers of the FCA, as against those of the ICO, have been taken into account in this determination.
I am concerned about the restricted powers of the ICO. I am sure that the Minister is aware of the views of various representative bodies. In particular, the Fair Telecoms campaign has intimated that the ICO has restricted means of ensuring compliance. I recall sitting on a previous Committee examining delegated legislation related to other parts of the Act, where we discussed transferring authority to the FCA precisely because it is a more powerful and authoritative body. It would be useful to hear more about that.
Secondly, it would have been helpful to ban the use of information derived from cold calls. That would have resulted in firms that provide financial services covered by the FCA being banned from using information gathered by introducers, thereby breaking that part of the chain. I know that that idea was not accepted by the Government, but has the Minister considered other means of dissuading such forward use of that information?
Thirdly, perhaps I have not got to grips with the relevant part of the legislation, but it is not clear to me exactly who the draft regulations will cover with respect to the telephone preference service register. The Fair Telecoms campaign maintains:
“This change in regulation will only affect the behaviour of callers who are currently checking numbers on the TPS register before making calls. For those who do not it simply adds to the cases that may be the subject of action by the ICO, rather than making any significant change.
Targets with their numbers on the TPS—the basis for many of the statistics given about the volume of calls alleged to be covered—are not affected in any way by this measure. It is understood that 80% of UK households have their number recorded on the TPS. At best, this measure can only affect the remaining 20%.”
Will the Minister clarify whether the draft regulations are focused on those not covered by the telephone preference service? If so, is it the Government’s view that the service is sufficient? It would be helpful to hear the Government’s thinking on the matter.
Fourthly, the Minister states that the draft regulations are in line with GDPR requirements, but some have suggested that their consent provisions are weaker than those in the GDPR. It would be helpful to understand where the exact language used about consent in the draft regulations has come from and why it is formally different from the language used in the GDPR.
Fifthly, as I understand it the regulations are drafted to cover only cases in which there is specific reference to
“funds held, or previously held, in an occupational pension scheme or a personal pension scheme”.
Cases in which a caller fails to make specific reference to the source of the funds that may be used for an unwise investment will therefore not be covered. Is the Department aware of that potential loophole? We can all imagine a particularly inventive and devious caller simply manipulating their sales script to comply with the letter but not the spirit of the draft regulations by talking in general terms without referring to a specific existing personal or occupational pension scheme.
Finally, may I push a little harder on the issue raised by my hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian? Would a response to a text message that was legal under PECR be sufficient to enable future cold calls within this regime?
Anneliese Dodds
The Minister shakes his head, helpfully. I will take that as a no, but it would be great to get a response to my other questions.
Patricia Gibson
I welcome the proposals, as far as they go. The Minister may be aware that I have long campaigned against the whole culture of cold calling on the grounds of the distress, disturbance and alarm that it causes and the door that it leaves gapingly open to scammers of all kinds.
I was interested to hear the Minister say that the UK Government will implement my Bill to make named directors responsible, the Unsolicited Marketing Communications (Company Directors) Bill—in September, I think he said. The Government exactly reprinted and resurrected my Bill in the name of one of their own Back Benchers; that was ironic, given that one of the Bill’s goals was to deal with scammers, but its implementation is very welcome. However, there is a very serious point to be made.
If all consumers are to receive welcome protection from cold callers on receipt of their pension, surely the Government must concede that cold calling, in and of itself, leaves all consumers open to fraud or heavy-handed sales techniques. So far, at least, it seems that protection from cold calling is not to be extended to all consumers. I know that that issue is not in the Minister’s remit today, but it is an interesting point. Will he explain why the Government are not extending that protection? There has been a delay of more than two years in the important policy of using named directors’ responsibility to protect not only those with pension pots, but all consumers.
I welcome the common-sense approach outlined by the Minister under which the consumer will be able to receive marketing calls about their pension if they have explicitly consented to that. Of course, explicit consent cannot mean just ticking a tiny wee box at the bottom of a page of very small writing; it has to be more robust than that. People should not opt in to receive pension marketing calls by accident. Opting in must be clear and explicit. What assurances can the Minister give about that?
We are told that the general data protection regulation
“sets a high standard for consent”.
Will the Minister give us more detail about what that high standard looks like and what it involves?
I have concerns about the ICO being able to take action against organisations that contravene the regulations. We know that, in the past, companies that faced heavy penalties from the ICO for various breaches simply closed down and reopened with the same staff and premises under a different name. That is why named director responsibility matters so much. I welcome the Minister’s comment that it will be enshrined in law in September—
Patricia Gibson
Excellent. I am very pleased to hear what the Minister has to say, and I welcome that. I have waited a long time for it. There has been a delay over named director responsibility. We want it not just for people with big pension pots, important as they are, but for all consumers in all industries. The two-year delay was a wasted opportunity. I wonder how many people have been swindled while we have waited.
The ICO can take any enforcement action it likes, but without named director responsibility it is a paper exercise because companies simply phoenix and evade their responsibilities. Penalty notices without named director responsibly are pie in the sky; they will not deter scammers.
I welcome these measures, and I am very pleased to hear about the December deadline that the Minister set out. I think he understands my reservations about this not being extended across every industry. For pension pots, this will stop scammers calling people without fear of reprisal and, when they receive a notice of penalty, simply putting it in the bin because it does not mean anything.
I urge the Minister to go back to his colleagues and make the case for real protection for all consumers in all industries. The Government supported named director responsibility for this measure, but we need to stop scammers across the board, not just in the area of pensions.
John Glen
I thank the hon. Members for Oxford East and for North Ayrshire and Arran for their points, which I will try to respond to as fully as I can. I will start with the last point, about the delay. All I can say is that, since I have been in office, this is something I have focused on. It came out of the legislation that was introduced in the spring. I am pleased that we are at this point. I cannot account for the delay fully, but I am glad we are at this point today.
The hon. Member for East Lothian asked whether, if someone has opted into receiving text messages, they are opting into receiving calls. The answer is no, because the GDPR requires granular consent to something clear and specific. Consent to receiving a text is not consent to receiving a call.
Martin Whitfield
Just to clarify, the experience that I am aware of is that a text message was used, which itself invited consent. The caller used the consent given by the response to the text message to phone again. The measure talks about the specific line that the caller has been authorised to use, but I wonder whether the Minister understands that, in the regulations, the consent to approach a person has to be for the telephone number/line, in which case the text messaging system would not be consent at any time.
John Glen
As I say, text messages are not the subject of these regulations, which relate to the PECR. I am relying on box notes to clarify the point. I will have to take this away and write to the hon. Gentleman. I understand the specific example that he has raised, and I will not leave him in any ambiguity on that point. Currently, my understanding is that one cannot opt in to receive cold calling by text message, but I will write to him as soon as I can on that matter.
The hon. Member for Oxford East raised issues relating to the ICO and the FCA. I will not rehearse those points again, as we have already have discussed them, but I will respond to the concern about the effectiveness of the ICO as an enforcement body. The ICO will enforce restrictions on unsolicited electronic direct marketing under PECR, and it is appropriate that the planned ban is enforced through that existing framework. As we have discussed, the ICO has tough enforcement powers, including a fine of up to £500,000. There would be a risk of confusing consumers and industry if we had different cold calling enforcement regimes for different sectors. If the Committee agrees to introduce the ban, the FCA will work closely with the ICO where breaches of the rules by FCA-authorised firms are identified and, crucially, the ICO will be able to enforce bans on introducers that are outside the FCA’s remit, because they are not FCA-authorised firms.
The hon. Member for Oxford East also talked about the telephone preference service. This statutory instrument would change it from an opt-out to an opt-in regime, which makes restrictions on pensions cold calling much tighter. In addition, although not all consumers are aware of the TPS, those listed on it would still be protected by the ban.
The ICO’s guidance is indeed clear that consent under PECR is to be understood in accordance with GDPR. Although the FCA is not prohibiting the use of personal data collected by third parties through cold calling, the Government and the FCA will keep the proposal under review as the effectiveness of the ban is monitored. An authorised firm that accepts business from an introducer must meet the FCA’s regulatory requirements, including carrying out due diligence on the introducers they transact with. If customers are given unsuitable advice by an introducer, the authorised firm may be held responsible and subject to regulatory action. The FCA has alerted investment advisers and authorised firms to their responsibilities when accepting business from unauthorised introducers or lead generators. Organisations are already required to process or handle personal data in accordance with the Data Protection Act 2018 and GDPR.
I assure the hon. Members for Oxford East and for North Ayrshire and Arran, and the Committee as a whole, that the Government are engaged in an ongoing process. As I said in my opening remarks, this is not “job done”. I recognise that there are a range of concerns from consumer organisations and different parts of the industry about whether further restrictions or bans should be in place. One of the reasons for the draft instrument is that, in future, we can introduce additional restrictions more speedily should they be required.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
On a slightly different topic, in 2015, a constituent of mine, 92-year-old Olive Cook, committed suicide by throwing herself over the Avon gorge. That hit the national headlines because she had been inundated with calls from charities. She was on the databases of 99 different charities, and a lot of them would trade in her details. To stop cold calling now, has the Minister considered the lessons that we tried to learn and the work of the Charity Commission to try to stop cold calling following that incident?
John Glen
I am extremely sorry to be reminded of that case. The regulations introduce a ban on pensions cold calling, but I would be happy to look into the matter and see what the collective conclusion of Government was on that particular case and its implications. I am happy to examine that in the context of my previous remarks.
The hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran spoke about a more comprehensive cold calling ban. As I tried to indicate, pensions cold calling is a special case where levels of consumer detriment are particularly high. The Government are committed to taking action. I accept that, for some, action has not been taken as quickly as it could have been, but a balance has to be struck between ensuring that consumers are adequately protected and providing the right conditions for legitimate direct marketing industry to operate.
Patricia Gibson
Nobody wants to stop businesses going about their lawful work, but if we had named director responsibility across every sector, that would allow legitimate businesses to thrive, while the scammers and the cowboys would be the ones to suffer.
John Glen
I am happy to look at appropriate additional measures, in the light of the evidence presented. I would like to draw the Committee’s attention, for example, to situations where utilities companies use calls to prospects to secure a switch to their service, or where the publishing industry uses calls to consumers who have indicated some affinity with the brand. Many national newspapers and magazine publishing houses use that approach. I am not, in this response, indicating that the Government are closed off to any further moves, but it has to be done on an evidential basis.
Patricia Gibson
The examples that the Minister has given are of legitimate businesses going about their normal work. We are not talking about that sort of business; we are talking about the ones that phone up, pester, scare, disturb, annoy and scam people.
John Glen
Fraud is fraud, and with actionable fraud the police can be contacted in such circumstances. With respect to the cold calling mechanism, I have said all I can on that. The Government are open on the basis of evidence to move forward.
The hon. Lady also raised the issue of how the Government will ensure that consumers do not accidentally give consent through ticking a box on a form. To give clarity on what GDPR sets out, it is a high standard of consent, requiring a positive opt in. Any default method, such as a pre-ticked box, does not constitute consent under GDPR, as I made clear in my opening remarks. Guidance to firms on complying with GDPR highlights that that request for consent must be prominently displayed, clear and specific, and separate from the terms and conditions.
I hope that that deals—
Anneliese Dodds
I am sorry to interrupt the Minister, who has been generous and helpful in his responses. I have one question remaining, which might fit into the rubric of what he has said about Government being open to further tightening, if necessary. I have handed over my speaking notes, but I recall that the legislation refers specifically to occupational or other pension schemes, and how a scammer or somebody selling inappropriately could use general talk of pensions to get into that conversation, and thus creatively comply. Will the Minister’s Department look at that carefully?
John Glen
I am clear that this is about pensions cold calling. I understand what the hon. Lady is saying about loopholes, in the sense that that conversation could hide that intent. It would be appropriate for me to reflect on that and write to the hon. Lady and the Committee. She raises a fair point, and the last thing we want to do is leave such ambiguity out there.
To conclude, this legislation will make a real impact in tackling pensions scams, deterring pensions cold callers by making their actions illegal and signalling to consumers that legitimate companies will not cold call them about their pensions. I hope the Committee will have found the sitting informative and will join me in supporting the regulations.
Question put and agreed to.
Oral Answers to Questions
John Glen Excerpts(6 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen)
It is Government policy to explore options for the sale of corporate and financial assets where there is no longer a policy reason to retain them and value for money can be secured for taxpayers. All asset sales are subject to a rigorous value-for-money assessment before they can go ahead.
Meg Hillier
In the Government’s pursuit of paying down the debt, they are at risk of selling off assets that could be of benefit to the public in the long term. Although the Economic Secretary talks about the modelling, we know from our work on the Public Accounts Committee that the model is very debatable in exactly what the benefit and disbenefit will be to the public in the long term. Will he commit to assessing every upcoming sale rigorously and making sure that the Treasury is learning, so that it is not selling off the family silver and taking things away from the British public that belong to them?
John Glen
I read the report published by the hon. Lady’s Committee, and I recognise the need for a rigorous value-for-money assessment of every sale. That is why, with respect to student loans, which was the subject of the Committee’s last report, I was pleased that the NAO said that
“the sale achieved prices at the upper end of these estimates”
and that
“the transaction…achieved value for money.”
The Government will continue to be guided by that in every transaction they undertake.
Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)
Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab)
The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen)
The Government have undertaken analysis to understand the impact of different EU exit scenarios on public sector net borrowing, which is a UK-wide metric, and we have published an assessment of the economic impact of EU exit on different sectors. For example, the analysis shows that manufacturing sectors are estimated to have a significantly higher output in the White Paper scenario than under the no-deal scenario.
Julie Elliott
I thank the Minister for that response, but is it not true that Office for National Statistics figures in the last few months have shown a 0.9% decline in manufacturing and a worrying 6.6% decline in the automotive sector? What are the Chancellor and the Minister doing to provide certainty to businesses in this area about the impact of this Government’s chaotic Brexit policy?
John Glen
I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s question. The automotive issue is related to other factors, including diesel. The Government are focused on investing in infrastructure in the north-east. I think that she would be very pleased to know that since 2010, we have had 66,000 new jobs in the north-east as a consequence of more business growth.
Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)
I can introduce my hon. Friend to manufacturers who find it significantly easier to export to the rest of the world than to the EU. Is there a lesson in that?
John Glen
I think my right hon. Friend is right to say that the Treasury is looking at growth opportunities across the whole world, and that is why the Chancellor set out in his Mansion House speech the aspiration to have global financial partnerships that make the best of those opportunities.
Mr Speaker
I am perfectly open to the hon. Member for Bedford (Mohammad Yasin) coming in on this question if he is minded to do so, but I am not psychic, so I cannot anticipate his wishes. He needs to stand if he wishes to do so.
John Glen
There is considerable analysis from the Bank of England and the Government’s analysis of the long-term effect of the different options, with a significant reference paper demonstrating the different scenarios and what lies behind them. The Government are seeking to deliver on the decision of the British people in the referendum in a way that maximises the opportunities for the British economy.
Jack Brereton (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Con)
Sandy Martin (Ipswich) (Lab)
The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen)
The City is very content with the deal we have on financial services, under which we would seek and secure enhanced equivalence decisions six months before the end of the implementation period, and the degree of dialogue with and support from the City has been constant throughout.
Stephen Kerr (Stirling) (Con)
Given the £900 million of additional funding for the Scottish block grant announced in the Budget, what discussions has the Chancellor had with the SNP Scottish Government about following his example and cutting business rates?
John Glen
Following on from the Budget, we have a series of measures to assist credit unions to expand their role in delivering affordable credit across communities. We have a scheme of work over the next three months to pilot interest-free loans and prize-linked saving schemes, to help credit unions to grow as they have been doing in recent years.
Joseph Johnson (Orpington) (Con)
What do the Government make of the Centre for European Reform’s report this week that warned of a 60% fall in UK financial services exports to the EU in the event that we lose access to the single market and put a free trade agreement in its place?
Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)
What impact will Brexit have on our universities, particularly in Coventry? More importantly, our universities do projects with Europe and also work closely with the manufacturing industry, including companies such as Jaguar Land Rover. What are we going to do about that?
Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Banks that are guilty of the scandalous mistreatment of small businesses are allowed to design and oversee their own redress schemes, including determining the level of compensation paid to the victims. Does the Minister agree that Parliament and the regulator should take control of those processes?
John Glen
I have always said that the banks need to do more to restore their relationship with SMEs, and I welcome the scheme that UK Finance has announced to address unresolved historical complaints. I look forward to meeting my hon. Friend next week, with the Chancellor, to discuss the Government’s position.
Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
The Inverness and Highlands city region deal was agreed a little while ago, and that is very good news. A whole shedload of money has been spent on Inverness—well done, Inverness!—but precious little has been spent on the outlying areas, including Wick and Thurso. That is surely not in the spirit of the deal. Should there not be an audit of this kind of deal in future?
Ruth George (High Peak) (Lab)
In the next two months, the Royal Bank of Scotland will close all but 56 branches in cities across England, leaving banking deserts in towns and rural areas like mine. What is the Chancellor doing to use the Government’s shareholding to exert public pressure on RBS and ensure that we have no banking deserts?
Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)
Is my right hon. Friend aware that one of the most successful companies in our country, Johnson Matthey in my constituency, is committed to having a fair-deal, not a no-deal Brexit because it feels that it is vital that there should be an orderly retreat, not chaos? Does he agree that the Prime Minister’s deal would achieve that?
Anti-money Laundering and Counter-terrorism Financing regime
John Glen Excerpts(6 years ago)
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The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen)
The UK is one of the world’s largest and most open economies, and a leading global financial centre. That brings it with the heightened risk of illicit financial flows from money laundering and terrorist financing. The Government are committed to tackling the threat that this presents to our security and prosperity. The Government have taken robust action over recent years to clamp down on illicit finance, protecting our citizens and helping legitimate businesses to thrive.
The Financial Action Task Force (FATF) is the global standard setter for anti-money laundering and counter-terrorist financing (AML/CTF). The FATF published its mutual evaluation report of the United Kingdom on Friday 7 December. The report recognises that the UK’s AML/CTF regime is the strongest of the over 60 countries assessed by FATF and its regional bodies to date.
The UK received the highest rating possible in four out of the 11 areas of the report, and received a rating of “substantial” in a further four areas. In particular, the report highlights the UK’s efforts on:
Taking significant steps to understand and coordinate the UK’s response to the threat of illicit finance, including publishing two national risk assessments in 2015 and 2017;
Working with international partners to tackle illicit finance, through a strong legal framework and a liaison network spanning over 160 jurisdictions;
Aggressively investigating and prosecuting money laundering, with over 1,400 convictions a year, and adopting new tools such as unexplained wealth orders;
Using all available measures to disrupt terrorist financing, including criminal justice measures, confiscating funds, and financial sanctions;
Preventing the misuse of companies and trusts, and acting as a global leader by adopting a public register of company beneficial ownership and a register of trusts with tax consequences;
Promoting effective global use and implementation of financial sanctions against terrorists and against proliferation of weapons of mass destruction;
The Government recognise that there is more to be done and is progressing with a series of measures to redouble its fight against economic crime.
The National Economic Crime Centre (NECC), housed within the National Crime Agency, has recently been launched. Tasked with co-ordinating the national response to economic crime, the NECC will ensure operations achieve the greatest sustained impact on threats the UK faces, and will lead a new approach to economic crime in the UK.
In line with this, the UK will take forward its ambitious reform of the suspicious activity reporting regime. This will provide an improved IT system to help the UK’s Financial Intelligence Unit (UKFIU) process, analyse and distribute the nearly 500,000 SARs received annually by UKFIU, and will also drive up the quality and use of SARs across the UK’s system. The NCA is increasing the staffing of the UKFIU by more than 30% this year, with further increases envisaged in future years.
The Government plan to legislate in 2019 to introduce a register of beneficial ownership for overseas entities which own or purchase UK property, which is being developed by the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (BEIS). The Government also plan to take further action to mitigate the risks presented by the misuse of limited partnerships, in line with the consultation response published today by BEIS. In addition, BEIS will look further at controls over who registers companies in the UK, what information they have to provide, and how assurance is provided over that information.
The 2017 National Risk Assessment noted the steps that UK supervisors are taking to strengthen their approaches and collaboration in the fight against illicit finance. Complementing this ongoing work, the Government launched the office for professional body AML supervision (OPBAS) earlier this year, which will continue its work with supervisors to help improve standards and consistency across the UK’s regime.
The FATF report underlines where more work can be done and will help to focus these efforts over the coming years. The Government are considering the recommendations in the report and will publish their response to these in due course.
A copy of the report has been deposited in the Libraries of both House.
[HCWS1162]
Affordable Credit for People on Low Incomes
John Glen Excerpts(6 years ago)
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Sir David Crausby (in the Chair)
Order. It is not normal, in a half-hour debate, for hon. Members to speak unless they have sought the permission of the mover of the motion and the Minister. Is the Minister happy for other Members to speak at this point?
The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen)
Yes, as long as I have a bit of time.
Sir David Crausby (in the Chair)
I think that the Minister wants about 10 minutes to respond to the debate. Is that right?
The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David. I thank the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Frank Field) for raising this important issue, which, as he knows, I have been passionate about since our days of setting up Feeding Britain. We went to South Shields and Salisbury to look at the experience of people using food banks. We even travelled to Paris together to try to get some inspiration for how to get the right model—
John Glen
Absolutely. I really want to make progress on the issue during my time as Economic Secretary, and in my response I will draw attention to some of the measures that have been taken.
I also had the pleasure of working with the right hon. Gentleman on the Select Committee. The assiduous way that he has pursued the challenges that people on low incomes face is legendary across the House. The whole House admires his efforts.
I want to get to the heart of the matter. The right hon. Gentleman has raised a number of issues about the conduct of Provident, as have five other hon. Members. We also had a conversation earlier this week. I recognise that he sees a citizens bank as playing two roles—first, ensuring that the poorest members of society can access core banking services, and secondly, providing credit to those people to help them to smooth their income, spread costs over time and cope with unexpected financial shocks. I will address each of those in turn.
I will set out how the progress that the Government have made on ensuring access to core financial services such as bank accounts has been achieved. The nine largest personal current account providers in the UK are legally required to offer a basic bank account to customers who are unbanked. Those accounts must be fee-free and must not have an overdraft facility.
The right hon. Gentleman drew attention to the key issue of the need to access affordable credit. The Government’s vision is for a well-functioning and sustainable consumer credit market that can responsibly meet the needs of all consumers. I think there is some agreement on that vision on both sides of the House.
I recognise that we face a playing field that is not level. My hon. Friend the Member for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge) and other hon. Members raised the point about advertising budgets, which is why one of the Budget announcements seeks to tackle the barriers faced by key partners such as housing associations to referring people to sources of affordable credit. The default setting is to find a better option than some of those that can be found on Google.
James Cartlidge
Has the Minister considered speaking to Google and other companies about that? It is a good point that it is very difficult to police the robot algorithm that sets up their adverts. I do not see how he can do that unless he speaks to the companies themselves.
John Glen
I am happy to take on that suggestion. I will look into what we can do as part of the challenge we also set in the Budget to introduce technical solutions to try to level that playing field and to make community development financial institutions such as Scotcash, which I visited in Glasgow in September, more accessible earlier in that process.
On Financial Conduct Authority regulation, I will try to address the points raised by the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy), who has raised the matter in the House previously. There was a review in May, although she does not agree with all its conclusions. Since the review, I have had more conversations about Amigo Loans and other issues, such as what can be done to monitor and to provide the evidence. In the interests of responding to the right hon. Member for Birkenhead, I will not carry on, but I do not want to be flippant about the serious concerns of the hon. Member for Walthamstow.
The FCA governs the rules about the provision of credit and is responsible for the regulation of consumer credit. It is a robust regulator, which I always encourage to be even more robust. It has the tools to take swift, effective action against improper practices. My regular dialogue with the chief executive, Andrew Bailey, and the director of strategy and competition, Christopher Woolard, covers that topic, and I know that high-cost credit is a priority for them.
The right hon. Gentleman specifically highlighted a number of worrying examples of high-cost credit lenders in Birkenhead. I listened with concern and serious dismay to the impact of those practices on vulnerable consumers. I hope the action that the FCA is undertaking in relation to lenders, as part of its broader review of the high-cost credit market, will have some impact.
The right hon. Gentleman mentioned Provident. The FCA is consulting on new rules and guidance specifically for home-collected credit firms. I will draw its chief executive’s attention to this debate. The rules will include requirements for firms to clearly explain the costs of a new loan compared with the cost of refinancing an existing one, and guidance stating that firms cannot visit customers to offer new loans without an explicit request from the customer.
The provision of affordable credit is a multifaceted problem and there is no single solution to overcome it. It is not sufficient to simply tighten regulation for high-cost lenders. Therefore the Government are desperately keen, and have taken steps, to ensure that low-income consumers can access safe, affordable and sustainable credit. In our civil society strategy, we announced that £55 million of funding from dormant assets would be directed towards addressing the problem of access to affordable credit and alternatives.
In the autumn Budget at the end of October, the Chancellor announced a package of measures to support affordable lending, including a prize-linked savings scheme to encourage the growth of the credit union sector. Although the sector is variable in quality, as has been discussed, there are opportunities to expand it. Another measure is an affordable credit challenge fund to encourage the UK’s vibrant FinTech sector to solve the challenges that I just discussed with my hon. Friend the Member for South Suffolk. A further measure is a change in the regulatory boundary to allow registered social landlords to offer their tenants better community lenders. A final measure is a feasibility study into a no-interest loan scheme, and a pilot of that scheme.
The right hon. Member for Birkenhead is absolutely right that banks have a responsibility to assist and facilitate better solutions in this area. Earlier this year, we took through the House the single financial guidance body, which will be a huge partner in working—I hope—with the banks, which often have worthwhile initiatives that are piecemeal and not joined-up. My vision, which is very similar to his, is of the banks coming together to recognise that, across the country, there are pockets of poverty and deprivation that need a new solution, which involves pooling their expertise and endeavour and working closely with the single financial guidance body to deliver a better set of options and outcomes for the constituents for whom he has been fighting so earnestly for 40 years.
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for securing the debate. He and other hon. Members have raised some significant issues that I take to my heart and back to my office. I hope I have offered him some reassurance by setting out the comprehensive and concerted actions that the Government have taken with the FCA to address the challenges in this area. I am clear that the Government are on a journey to actively and comprehensively support vulnerable borrowers. I want to continue to work with him, and other hon. Members from both sides of the House, using the knowledge and expertise that exists, to come up with even better solutions to deal with a real problem in some communities in this country.
Question put and agreed to.
ATM Closures
John Glen Excerpts(6 years ago)
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The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I thank the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Ged Killen) for raising the matter and for the thoughtful way he set out several issues that I will respond to. I also thank the other five Back-Bench Members who made contributions.
First, I assure hon. Members present, and across the House, that the Government recognise that widespread free access to cash remains extremely important for the day-to-day lives of many consumers and businesses in the UK, particularly the most vulnerable members of our society. Ultimately, the Government’s approach to payments is one of facilitating maximum choice; consumers should be free to choose the method of payment that best suits them. I acknowledge that several scenarios have been set out, particularly for rural and less affluent areas, and I will come on to address some actions that can be taken at different levels to deal with those challenges.
The fundamental context for the problem is the rise of digital payments and the decline in cash use. The UK has one of the most extensive free ATM networks in the world; some 82% of the ATM network is free. I listened carefully to the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Moray (Douglas Ross), who resists the option to pay a fee. I share his antipathy to that situation, but 98% of all ATM transactions are conducted on free ATMs. Moreover, the free ATM network has increased by 40% in the past 10 years and the number of pay-to-use ATMs has fallen by a similar percentage.
However, we must all acknowledge that people are increasingly moving away from cash and towards digital payments. To be specific, in the UK, cash use has fallen from 61% of all payments in 2007 to a remarkable 34% last year. That fall is expected to continue at pace. Correspondingly, the declining number of withdrawals at ATMs is forecast to continue as cash usage by consumers for payments declines. We can all, therefore, recognise the challenge of maintaining efficient, free access to cash.
In response to that challenge, LINK—the UK’s ATM network—announced a series of reforms at the beginning of the year, which have provided the main focus of the debate. Its work to maintain widespread free access to cash involves acknowledging that 80% of free ATMs are within 300 metres of one another. There is evidence that too many ATMs are clustered in busy, urban areas, which unnecessarily duplicates the supply of that service. Therefore, LINK’s measures aim to reduce the amount of ATM duplication in urban areas and avoid unnecessary growth in ATM numbers, despite the observed decline in consumer demand for cash.
Jim Shannon
The Minister says that there has certainly been a downturn in the use of cash, but I remind him that we have to acknowledge that almost three quarters of people use cash two to three times per week. An interesting trend, which we cannot ignore, is that 60% of 18 to 24-year-olds also use cash at that level, so it is still vital.
John Glen
I acknowledge that we are not seeing the end of cash. The challenge is how we adapt to the different mode and frequency of its use. There is no simple single solution. Clearly, creating a complete network in sparsely populated areas will not always be the right answer.
Although the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) is not in her place, for general edification I will respond to her point about the lack of notice when ATM operators move. They have a duty to inform LINK that a protected ATM will close. LINK can offer premiums to all its members to incentivise the replacement of the machine. It has set up a publicly available monitoring tool on its website that shows ATM availability. It has the power to mandate and directly commission an ATM deployer where one is necessary.
LINK’s measures aim to reduce the duplication that I mentioned earlier and to intervene where necessary. It aims to incentivise broad, national coverage of free ATMs and to protect every community across the UK from losing free ATM access. Specifically, LINK has ensured that free ATMs that are 1 km or more from the nearest free ATM are exempt from any reductions in the interchange fees that fund free ATMs. It has put in place specific arrangements to protect free ATMs more than 1 km away from the nearest free ATM, including boosting the interchange fee available in those areas. It has also enhanced its financial inclusion programme by tripling the interchange fee available to the lowest-income areas of the UK, to ensure that they all have at least one free ATM. Some 93%—an all-time high—of the most deprived areas in the UK have a free ATM.
That fact has to be seen in the context of the £2 billion of investment in the Post Office since 2010. The £370 million that is earmarked for 2018-21 is designed to maintain the last post office in the village and ensure that consumers can use the over-the-counter option to secure cash.
Douglas Ross
I am grateful to the Minister for his courtesy in giving way—a courtesy that was sadly lacking in the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson). As he is speaking about post offices, does he think that the hon. Lady did not take my intervention because she is fully aware that business rates are overseen by the SNP Scottish Government in Scotland? The problem for the Lossiemouth post office is that it is being punished by the SNP Scottish Government for having its ATM facing outwards and accessible 24/7 rather than inside the post office, which has therefore reduced the hours when the ATM is accessible.
Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP)
The Minister talks about the importance of keeping an ATM in rural and deprived areas. The difficulty is that when there is only one ATM in such areas, it often experiences high levels of usage and regularly runs out of cash, which is worse than not having it at all in some ways. I encourage him to do what he can to ensure that we keep a network, even in such areas.
Patricia Gibson
The Minister mentioned the Payment Systems Regulator, so before he moves on I want to ask whether he is considering giving it greater powers to protect cash, and imposing a duty of care on it, to ensure that the UK’s cash infrastructure is sustainable. That would address a lot of the concerns that hon. Members have expressed.
John Glen
I will come on to talk about the powers of the Payment Systems Regulator, which I have met. My judgment is that it has considerable power over the LINK network. It can mandate LINK to do certain things and it can impose fines. I would need to look carefully at what that proposal would involve and where it would be different from the powers that LINK has at the moment.
I acknowledge LINK’s independent review, which is chaired by Natalie Ceeney. As was mentioned earlier, the report will be published in March. It is looking at long-term access to cash and exploring further the impact on consumers and small businesses of the shift from cash to digital payments. I have met Natalie Ceeney and encouraged her to look as broadly as possible at this issue. I imagine that the nature of her powers, as well as what she needs to do her job, will be part of her report.
This House should also note that the payment systems regulator, which the Government established in 2015 to ensure that payment systems work well for those who use them and which regulates LINK, has taken a lead in examining this issue. Following the first publication of LINK’s ATM footprint report, the regulator used its powers to place a specific direction on LINK. This is designed to make sure that LINK does all it can to fulfil its public commitment to preserve the broad geographic spread of free ATMs and to report to the regulator on a regular basis.
I think I have addressed a number of the concerns raised in the debate. The Government have invested heavily in maintaining a stable network of post office branches. Anyone can use their LINK-enabled bank card to take money out for free at the counter of every one of the 11,500 post offices in the UK. I acknowledge that a post office needs to be open for that to happen, so I am not presenting it as a perfect solution, but it is a significant alternative source of cash for many people.
Additionally, in the autumn Budget at the end of October the Chancellor announced the Government’s plan to help local high streets to evolve and adapt to changing consumer demands. It included £675 million for the future high streets fund to support local areas’ plans to make their high streets and town centres fit for the future.
The hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West raised a couple of specific points about digital payments failure. The Treasury and the UK financial authorities take this issue very seriously and are investing in improving the operational resilience of the system, including cyber, across the financial sector. Over the next five years, £1.9 billion will be spent on cyber-security initiatives.
The hon. Gentleman also asked about helping the vulnerable. The Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport has a digital skills partnership that is looking at partnerships across the private, public and charity sectors, which also involves training in digital skills for adults.
On the point about the powers of the PSR, it has the power to direct LINK and impose financial penalties; it is committed to using those powers. It also made a direct intervention on the interchange fees to LINK to deal with this issue.
To conclude, I thank the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West for raising this issue. It is surely right that we consider the impact of an increasingly digital world and ensure that we protect those who need to be able to pay by cash. In the here and now, cash use remains important; it is still the second most frequently used payment method, just behind debit cards. We also know that around 2.2 million consumers predominantly use cash, many of whom are the more vulnerable members of our society.
I take this matter very seriously. I chair the Government’s financial inclusion forum, and for me there is a combination of interventions. There will be interventions from the regulator to deal with those who are making it very difficult for people to access affordable credit. However, this issue is also about increasing capacity.
I do not rule anything out in terms of efforts to improve the situation. With my officials, I have spoken to the PSR about this issue, and it has engaged with the regulator and LINK on this topic. I assure the Chamber this morning that I will continue to emphasise the importance that this Government place on widespread free access to cash.
Financial Implications for the Next Generation
John Glen Excerpts(6 years ago)
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The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax) and acknowledge the assiduous way in which he has communicated with the Treasury over recent years, sharing the correspondence of his constituent. I welcome this opportunity to address, in as detailed fashion as possible, the points he has raised in his eloquent speech. I pass on my sincere thanks to his constituent for raising his concerns with the Government. I respect those concerns, and it is rare and gratifying to have a member of the public who takes quite such an assiduous interest in the public finances as to spend 5,000 hours studying them. I also thank the hon. Members for West Ham (Lyn Brown) and for Glasgow East (David Linden) for their contributions to the wide-ranging discussion this afternoon.
The Government share the concerns expressed today about the level of debt and recognise the importance of reducing it so as not to pass on an unfair burden to the next generation. I am anxious to reassure the constituent of my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset that the Government are taking this matter seriously and are committed to getting debt down.
It may be helpful if I start with a few points of clarification. My hon. Friend observed a number of statistics relating to general Government gross debt. The Government’s chosen metric for debt is public sector net debt, which is a more complete and transparent measure of debt, incorporating a wider range of public institutions than general Government gross debt. Looking at net debt rather than gross debt also provides a more accurate picture of the health of the public finances, as it nets off our liquid assets.
My hon. Friend also stated in his opening remarks that the Government had reduced the deficit so that we now borrow £1 in £16, compared with £1 in £5 in 2009-10. He may be pleased to know that the figure is actually better than that: the Government now borrow only £1 in every £20 we spend.
An important point has been raised about how we measure debt, which I would like to address. The observation is that debt has increased in cash terms since 1973 and that that relates to us joining the European Union. I reiterate that looking at debt as a percentage of our national income—that is, GDP—is a more helpful way of assessing the public finances as it recognises our ability to afford debt as a nation. Looking at debt as a percentage of GDP adjusts for inflation and our ability to service that debt. It also paints a different picture from the nominal figures and shows that our debt level fluctuated between 20% and 50% from 1973, before significantly increasing at the time of the financial crisis. The fall in debt that we are now seeing as a percentage of GDP, rather than in cash terms, is an important distinction as it recognises that GDP is growing faster than debt. As my hon. Friend says, that is a movement in the right direction.
My hon. Friend also observed that, although we have significantly reduced the deficit since 2010, debt rose as a share of GDP over the same period before it peaked in 2016-17. That increase to debt in cash terms and as a percentage of GDP is principally due to the high levels of borrowing that we inherited from the last Administration—a post-war high of 9.9% of GDP, to be exact—which added to our overall debt burden. That could not be fixed overnight. As it was, there was significant resistance to the measures we took to reduce that deficit in the early years in government. We have now reached a crucial turning point, and the deficit has been reduced by four-fifths, from 9.9% when we came in to 1.9% of GDP at the end of the last financial year in April.
Thanks to the work of the British people to reduce the deficit, debt peaked at 85.2% of GDP in 2016-17 and has now begun its first sustained fall in a generation. It will reach—or, it is anticipated to, given the inherent difficulties of forecast—74.1% of GDP in 2023-24. That progress means that we are in a much stronger position with the public finances than we were in 2010.
While it is correct that debt rose after 2010, without the Government successfully reducing the deficit to the extent we have, debt would have been even higher and would still be rising. As my hon. Friend observed, there is a keen contrast between the Government’s balanced approach to paying down the deficit and paying down debt and the Opposition’s proposals to spend £1,000 billion if they assume office.
My hon. Friend also mentioned debt figures in cash terms for 2010, which his constituent Mr Stewkesbury rightly points out have changed. That change is due to a large number of reclassifications, the largest of which was adopting the European system of accounts 2010, which increased debt by around £100 billion due to the inclusion of Network Rail’s debt and the asset purchase facility and the treatment of public sector bank shares as illiquid. Reclassifications are necessary in the course of following international standards, which are themselves in constant evaluation.
The Government’s commitment to responsible management of the public finances was shown this summer, as we published our response to the OBR’s fiscal risks report, providing a detail account of the actions that the Government are taking to address risks to fiscal sustainability. That report provides a mechanism for Parliament and the public to assess the Government’s strategies for managing the risks, and to hold us to account for their implementation.
The report’s publication reaffirms the UK’s place at the international frontier of fiscal transparency and accountability, and supports the Government’s long-term fiscal strategy. The report set out a range of reforms that we are pursuing to reduce risks to the fiscal outlook, including actions to reduce our inflation exposure and tighter controls over the issuance of Government loans and guarantees. Such reforms will enhance the UK’s resilience to future economic shocks and aid in helping to keep debt falling.
It is right that actions taken by the Government today do not unjustly impact the next generation. In 2010, the Government inherited a very difficult position in the public finances, with debt having nearly doubled in two years and the budget deficit at its largest since the second world war. We have made significant progress. The deficit has been reduced by four-fifths and debt has begun its first sustained fall in a generation. However, the Government recognise that the job is not yet done, and share the concerns raised today.
We must continue to reduce debt to reduce the burden placed on the next generation. The OBR’s October forecast confirmed that the Government are on course to do that, and that we have met our near-term fiscal rules three years early. We will continue with our balanced approach, keeping debt falling while supporting public services, investing in the economy and keeping taxes low.
My hon. Friend raised a specific point about the sale of the Channel tunnel. The Government’s approach to such matters is that we sell public assets where there is no public policy reason for retaining them, but all asset sales must meet the value-for-money tests set out in the Green Book at the time.
It has been difficult to respond fully to today’s debate, given the range of speeches. My hon. Friend made essentially a macroeconomic critique of the Government, while the Opposition Front-Bench Members made a different set of observations, which are perhaps best left to another time. I sincerely acknowledge the need for the Government to come to terms with the fact that in 2019-20 we will still spend £43 billion on net debt interest, which is more than the amount spent on our armed forces. We need to be clear about the imperative to bear down on the challenge of getting our public finances into a position where we do not add to that debt burden, so that the next generation is in a better situation than when we came into Government.
Draft Central Securities Depositories (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018
Draft Trade Repositories (Amendment and Transitional Provision) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018
John Glen Excerpts(6 years ago)
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The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Central Securities Depositories (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to consider the draft Trade Repositories (Amendment and Transitional Provision) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018.
John Glen
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Evans. The two statutory instruments before the Committee, which were debated in the House of Lords on Wednesday 28 November, form part of our contingency planning for a potential no-deal EU withdrawal scenario. They are two of approximately 60 SIs that we are laying under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 to ensure that the UK retains a fully functioning legislative and regulatory regime for the financial services sector after our withdrawal from the EU in March 2019.
Last December, the Treasury pledged to transfer functions and powers in relation to trade repositories and central securities depositories to the Financial Conduct Authority and the Bank of England respectively, thus enabling the regulators to manage any cliff-edge risks arising from a no-deal scenario and to ensure an orderly exit from the EU. The statutory instruments deliver on those commitments.
Trade repositories and central securities depositories provide essential services to UK customers under EU regulation. Should the UK leave the EU without a deal or an implementation period, they would be unable to provide services to UK firms until they had the appropriate permissions under the UK’s domestic regimes, given that the UK would be outside the single market for financial services. The SIs therefore seek to ensure that there will continue to be a functioning regulatory regime to mitigate any risk of disruption to the provision of services in the event of a no-deal scenario.
Let me first discuss the draft Central Securities Depositories (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations. A central securities depository is an element of financial market infrastructure that keeps a record of who owns individual securities such as bonds or shares. Central securities depositories carry out three core functions: the registration of share ownership, trade settlement, and the maintenance of obligations arising from owning a security. Central securities depositories are governed by the central securities depositories regulation, which created a common authorisation, supervision and regulatory framework for central securities depositories across the EU.
The failure to maintain access to the UK for non-UK central securities depositories would introduce unnecessary risk to any UK firm using those services and would potentially cut off access to central financial markets. The draft regulations will therefore introduce a UK transitional regime that will allow both UK and non-UK central securities depositories to continue to provide services in the UK after exit next March.
To make use of the UK transitional regime, the draft regulations will also introduce a requirement for non-UK central securities depositories to notify the Bank of England, before exit day, of their intention to provide services in the UK after exit from the EU. The Bank of England has sent letters to non-UK central securities depositories—10 of them, I think—to set out the notification process. The draft regulations will introduce measures to mitigate those risks and ensure a smooth continuation of the provision of services by central securities depositories to the UK.
The draft regulations will transfer the various functions and powers currently held by EU bodies to the appropriate UK authorities. After exit, the powers that are currently held by the European Securities and Markets Authority in the EU to recognise non-UK central securities depositories will be transferred to the Bank of England. The European Commission’s powers to make equivalence decisions are being transferred to the Treasury. This is a process of reviewing another country’s regulatory framework to determine whether it is equivalent in outcome to one’s own. Once the Treasury has deemed a country equivalent, the Bank of England can recognise central securities depositories within that country. This will allow such central securities depositories to provide services to UK firms in compliance with the UK regime.
I now turn to the draft Trade Repositories (Amendment and Transitional Provision) (EU Exit) Regulations. Trade repositories centrally collect and maintain data on derivative transactions. Derivatives are financial instruments that can be used to hedge against risks such as interest rate fluctuations or asset price volatility. The European market infrastructure regulation requires all data and information on European derivative transactions to be reported to trade repositories that are registered with or recognised by ESMA; this is known as the EMIR reporting obligation. If trade repositories are unable to provide services to UK firms post exit, those UK firms will be unable to fulfil their reporting obligation under the UK’s regime, resulting in the UK regulators losing access to the data necessary for monitoring financial stability risks to the UK market.
The draft regulations will introduce measures to mitigate that risk, ensuring a smooth continuation of services from trade repositories to UK firms. First, they will establish a framework in the UK for the registration of UK trade repositories, while maintaining the same regulatory criteria for new UK trade repository applicants. To achieve that, ESMA functions relating to the registration of trade repositories will be transferred to the Financial Conduct Authority, including the mandate to make technical standards specifying the information to be provided by trade repository applicants. The FCA currently supervises UK firms subject to existing EU reporting obligations and is therefore familiar with the reporting requirements under EMIR, so it is the most appropriate UK authority to take on that role.
Secondly, the draft regulations will provide powers to the FCA to consider applications ahead of exit day so that a trade repository can provide services in the UK as soon as possible after exit. Thirdly, they will establish a temporary registration regime for eligible trade repositories that will allow them to continue to provide services to the UK by setting up new UK entities. This provides temporary registration for a period of three years to UK trade repositories that are part of a group that contains an ESMA-registered trade repository. The purpose is to allow additional time for those trade repositories’ applications for permanent registration to be considered by the FCA and ensure continuity of services to UK firms. To enter the temporary regime, an eligible trade repository must, ahead of exit day, submit an application to the FCA for registration and set up a new legal entity in the UK.
Finally, the draft regulations will create a conversion regime whereby UK trade repositories that currently have ESMA authorisation are deemed to be registered by the FCA from exit day. To enter the regime ahead of exit day, a UK trade repository must notify the FCA of its intention to be registered. The conversion regime will ensure the smooth continuity of services from UK trade repositories to UK firms.
The Treasury has worked very closely with UK financial regulators and industry bodies to draft the statutory instruments. To ensure full transparency with Parliament, industry and the public ahead of laying the instruments, the Treasury published the trade repositories regulations in draft on 5 October 2018 and the central securities depositories regulations in draft on 22 October 2018, with an accompanying explanatory policy note for each. The regulators and the industry have generally been supportive of the policy decisions in the SIs, both of which are essential to ensuring that the UK retains a fully functioning legal regime both for trade repositories and for central securities depositories in the event of a no-deal scenario. The relevant UK regulators are also equipped to manage any cliff-edge risks. No matter what the outcome of the exit negotiations, UK businesses and customers who use trade repositories and central securities depositories can therefore be confident that they will continue to operate and provide services in the UK.
I hope colleagues from all parties will join me in supporting the draft regulations. I commend them to the Committee.
The Chair
Before I call the shadow Minister, let me inform the Committee that if there is a Division in the House, I will suspend our sitting for 15 minutes so that hon. Members can vote.
John Glen
I thank the hon. Members for West Ham and for Glasgow Central for their points, and I will endeavour to answer all of them. I recognise that some of the scenarios are obviously not desirable, and I echo their comments about that. We are seeking a deal, and the framework of the deal for financial services would give us provision for early equivalence decisions before the end of the implementation period, and we hope that will happen. We believe that the regulations are necessary to ensure that the UK retains a fully functioning legal regime for the trade repositories and central securities depositories in the event of a no-deal scenario. I also want to make the point, which applies in response to both hon. Ladies’ comments, that the Government do not, in any eventuality, see the UK financial services sector trading on some deregulatory arbitrage basis, where we somehow remove ourselves from the context in which we have been so intimately involved within the EU with respect to regulations. The hon. Member for West Ham made reference to the Pittsburgh agreement in 2009 to improve transparency, and we stand by that. A holistic review was undertaken following the crisis and the ESMA rules came into effect to try to address that.
On the point about how stable the regulations on central securities depositories will be when needed, we have engaged extensively with the regulators and with industry, and we are confident that we will ensure a stable and functioning regime at the point of exit. With respect to what happens if there is a deal, the withdrawal agreement Bill will include provision to delay, amend or revoke statutory instruments made under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, so we would make a decision based on what was appropriate at that time.
The hon. Lady asked about the differences between the transition regime for CSDs and full authorisation or recognition under CSDR. While a CSD is within the transitional regime, it will be subject to the recognised clearing house regime in part 18 of the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000. Other legislation, such as the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (Recognition Requirements for Investment Exchanges and Clearing Houses) Regulations 2001, is also relevant. Recognised clearing houses must be recognised as part of the Bank of England, which gives an exemption from the general prohibition under FSMA IV regulated activity. A recognised clearing house may provide clearing services in the UK.
Once a UK CSD has been authorised, or a non-UK CSD has been recognised, the onshore CSDR regime will apply to it. That consists of the EU CSDR and the UK’s 2014 and 2017 regulations that implement it, and CSDs are given a separate exemption in section 285 of FSMA. As the hon. Lady pointed out at the start, the regulation is complicated by the way that those markets function. That regime is more extensive than the recognised clearing house regime and contains more detailed requirements about the operation and supervision of CSDs.
The hon. Lady also asked whether there would be any departures from EU law. The legislation is drafted using powers under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, so there is no policy innovation or deviation. That Act does not allow such policy changes, except where necessary to address deficiencies in language or such like. No changes are made to the regulatory requirements on CSDs.
The hon. Lady asked about the appropriateness of the Bank of England recognising non-UK CSDs. The Bank of England is obviously the UK regulator responsible for the authorisation and supervision of UK CSDs. It has a process in place for the recognition of UK CSDs and therefore has the most relevant experience for recognising non-UK CSDs. That sort of pattern has been followed throughout the construction, engagement and laying of these statutory instruments, so where the Commission is appropriate for making equivalence decisions, that comes to the Treasury, because we are equivalent, and the same with ESMA and the Bank of England.
John Glen
The regime that we would be onshoring for the future recognition of third countries would be a matter for us to consider, on the same basis that we would be onshoring EU entities that would have a new legal entity in the UK. It will be the same process, but one that we would essentially have to do domestically, rather than relying on the ESMA framework.
I now turn to the points of the hon. Member for Glasgow Central. I acknowledge the recurrent but appropriately made comments about her party’s position. All I can say is that I have tried to conduct this in as professional a manner as possible. The regulators have the resources available. They have a supervisory framework and, through the levy, they have the ability to make the appropriate resources available.
The hon. Lady asked about the temporary registration regime, which is intended to allow existing EU trade repositories to continue to provide services to the UK. It allows the new UK legal entities, which are part of an ESMA-authorised group, to submit an application. In terms of the process for that application, she mentioned the drafts on the site. I cannot give her the responses to the letter of 25 October, but I undertake to write to her on that. I need to speak to the regulators to understand where they are with that.
The hon. Lady also made a point about the degree of engagement that we have had with the EU. We have had a wide range of discussions with our EU counterparts—I have not personally, but my officials have—on matters relating to our withdrawal from the EU and this matter.
The UK Government and regulatory authorities will continue to do everything we can to ensure a smooth adjustment for firms and customers on both sides. Unfortunately, as with many of these matters, we cannot determine the EU’s response. That has been a challenge over this period. It is inevitable that, in a no-deal scenario, hostility will break out. It is in the interests of all market participants, regulator-to-regulator, Government-to-Government, to continue to work closely together, because that is in the interest of stability.
I believe that has addressed most, if not all, of the points raised.
Alison Thewliss
On the point about not knowing the exact number of firms affected, I draw the Minister’s attention to paragraph 124 on page 32 of the impact assessment, which says:
“As the volume of firms affected is so large, and both financial counterparties and non-financial counterparties are affected by the reporting obligation, it is difficult to provide an estimate of the number of firms affected.”
Will he tell me more about what can be done to raise awareness among the firms that may be caught up in this? If they do not know about it, they will not know about their obligations to comply.
John Glen
The existing reporting obligations for both statutory instruments are enduring and have been established for a long time. The issue of reporting into a different legal entity would come to pass following the enablement and the enacting of this regime.
The hon. Lady referred to the different parts of the impact assessment and the wider cost of familiarisation. She is absolutely right to draw attention to the undesirability of this additional cost and expense. That is why we do not advocate a no-deal scenario. I am not in a position to give her any more information, because I do not possess it. It will be incumbent on the regulator to send out timely information updates on what will be required. There is no meaningful change in what a market participant will need to do, in terms of the information they will need to share.
I hope the Committee has found this afternoon’s sitting informative and that it will support these regulations.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the Committee has considered the draft Central Securities Depositories (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018.
Draft Trade Repositories (Amendment and Transitional Provision) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018.
Resolved,
That the Committee has considered the draft Trade Repositories (Amendment and Transitional Provision) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018. —(John Glen.)