Oral Answers to Questions

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Thursday 9th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

The right hon. Gentleman may choose to prepare a detailed paper on the matter and to lodge it in the Library of the House where I feel confident it will be a well-thumbed tome.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

On the subject of religious tolerance, what discussions has the Commissioner had with media outlets such as TV and radio with regard to Christian programming? Does he agree that it is important to retain a level of programming that reflects the Christian status of this nation? What can be done to promote such programming?

[Sir Tony Baldry]

To be honest, I do not think that Christians do too badly. If one gets up early enough, one finds a perfectly good programme between 7 and 8 o’clock on BBC Radio 4 every Sunday. I do not think we can feel that we are in some way discriminated against by the broadcasters.

Fishing Industry

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Thursday 12th December 2013 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) on setting the scene for this important debate. One thinks of the film “Groundhog Day”, as the debate happens every year and we always seem to come back to it. However, it does not make the debate any less important, as we can see from the Members who are here to make a contribution.

As I have said many times before in this Chamber, fishing is the lifeblood of the village of Portavogie in my constituency, which has both primary and secondary fishing jobs. It has been said in this debate that Northern Ireland has 700 fishing jobs, but the offshore jobs—those involved in further processing—double that figure. It is clear, therefore, how important fishing is to my constituency and to the constituency of the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie).

Just last week, I, along with Diane Dodds MEP and Alan McCulla of the Anglo-North Irish Fish Producers Organisation, had the opportunity to meet the Minister and to put forward a case for Northern Ireland to set the scene early on. I pay tribute to the former Minister, the hon. Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon), who is not in his place, because he took the time to come to the Chamber for the start of the debate. We all recognise his interest and importance in this regard. Things have changed. The responsibility now falls on the shoulders of a new Minister, and I look forward to supporting him as he does his job. Let us make no mistake; there will be a big fight in Europe over this issue.

Members have referred to the number of deaths at sea. Every time I watch the film “Deadliest Catch”, I think of the fishermen from Portavogie who have such experiences every week. The other night, “Perfect Storm” was on TV. We all know that film, but for some of the families in Portavogie, they live that life. We have a memorial in the harbour to those who died doing their job.

I want to focus my remarks on Northern Ireland and the issues of nephrops and prawns. The scientific advice for nephrops was published on 31 October, but we have no indication of what is happening in relation to it. The nephrops industry is critical to the fishing sector in Northern Ireland. If area 7 is cancelled, nephrops will again be our No. 1 priority. I urge the Minister, as we did last week, to underline that important issue. The fishing stock in Northern Ireland could have 100 vessels specifically targeting that species.

In recent years, the UK and Ireland have successfully made the case that the total allowable catches must be uplifted above the “sum of the science” to account for consistent undershoots in the TAC caused by some member states not taking up their allocation of nephrops. I find those undershoots both worrying and annoying; they cause great concern to me and to the industry. Combined with the less favourable scientific advice, they will make achieving a roll-over in the TAC very challenging this year. It must be stressed that the catch landed is important for the fishermen of Northern Ireland and for the shore-based industry. Again, let us make no mistake: the issue is critical for the Northern Ireland fishing sector. Nephrops is Northern Ireland’s No.1 priority, and giving that stock such priority can be easily explained. It is practically the only major stock we have left. The fact remains that fisheries in the Irish sea have been managed into practically depending on this single species.

Europe, through its legislation, bureaucracy and strategies, has pushed the fishing industry towards the one sector of prawns. At a recent North-Western Waters Regional Advisory Council meeting in Paris, the International Council for the Exploration of the Seas agreed that stock was being managed within the maximum sustainable yield targets, which is good news.

The hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) outlined the issue of North sea cod. The situation is similar for us in Northern Ireland. Our one remaining full-time whitefish trawler in the fleet mainly targets haddock, but a recovery plan is in place. The Northern Ireland fisheries division, through the Department for Agriculture and Rural Development, permitted a limited sentinel fishery for cod from 2 to 24 September. It observed the quantity of cod in the sea, and it showed that cod numbers and the size of cod are increasing, which is good news.

I am concerned that the European Commission has proposed a cut in the TAC of 20%, in line with the cod recovery plan. It is clear that we must argue for a simple roll-over in the TAC, but the Fisheries Minister is aware that that is a difficult argument to win, and a potential compromise would be to suggest a by-catch only fishery in 2014 if the Commission would agree to the TAC remaining unchanged. A reduced TAC combined with improved gear selectivity and the forthcoming discard ban will make it all the harder to determine what is happening with Irish sea cod. It should also be noted that any reduction in the TAC will stop the sentinel fishery, which is important and has been running for the past two years.

There are some good points to make about fisheries, which is good because the news is so bleak at this time of the year. The size of haddock and plaice has increased over the past year. The EC has also proposed a 5% increase in herring, which is good news. The industry is on track to secure the Marine Stewardship Council certification, which has been running over the past few years, and that will be a first for an Irish sea fish species.

I am really concerned that the number of days at sea will be reduced if cod stocks fail to recover. Our fishermen will have fewer days at sea, which is incredible and hard to understand.

[Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that if there is such a reduction, it would make it very difficult for many boats to have a sustainable future?

[Jim Shannon]

That is a valuable intervention, which outlines my case very clearly. If there is a reduction, the viability of many boats will come into question. Again, it will be yet another nudge in the direction of not fishing any more.

Other Members have mentioned mackerel, but I am concerned that Iceland and the Faroe Islands might have 12% of the total allowable catch, which is what the EU is moving towards. Thankfully, that has been blocked so far by Norway. It reminds me of a saying that we have in my country—that is, “No surrender.” Norway said “No surrender” to the Faroes and to Iceland. When quota is allocated, it is ridiculous to allocate a percentage when the stock reduces in size. We want to protect the UK allocation, as other hon. Members have said.

I am conscious of regionalisation. Others have mentioned it, but I want to see regionalisation that means that Northern Ireland has some control over the fisheries in the Irish sea. Other regions would like to see that, too. Northern Ireland secured an acceptable amount of money from the European fisheries fund budget and I believe that it can do likewise through the European maritime and fisheries fund.

I urge the Minister, when he goes to Brussels, to ensure that the one thing he keeps in his mind is the fishermen. They want the fish, they want to sustain their jobs and they want to sustain their families. I am aware that I have gone into some detail, but at the same time I tell the Minister that I have every confidence that he goes into battle well armed with knowledge and firm about what he wants to achieve. I ask the House to give him the support he needs to do the job we know he can do well. We wish him well in the next week or two as he fights those battles for Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England.

--- Later in debate ---

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

I am delighted to respond to the many excellent speeches that have been made by Members across the Chamber. I, too, would like to begin by paying my respects to all those who have lost their lives over the past year in our fishing communities and in the wider service given on the seas, in the coastguards, other coastal agencies and the maritime fleet. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran), who introduced the debate so well, and to the hon. Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon), who served as an excellent fisheries Minister over the past few years and negotiated many important developments in European fisheries during his tenure.

The EU is the world’s largest maritime territory, and marine resource makes a significant contribution to our prosperity and social well-being. The marine environment must therefore be protected to ensure that it is healthy, productive and safeguarded for the use of future generations. We are stewards of a renewable resource, rather than miners of a finite one, and we would do well to remember that. Many of the threats to Europe’s marine resource require co-operation and collective action if they are to be tackled effectively.

My hon. Friend the Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) spoke about the need for regional control to lead logically to national control, but unfortunately I do not share his view, because effective co-operation is needed if we are to manage the resource responsibly and through the ecosystem-based approach that the marine stewardship framework directive suggests. Our seas and oceans border many nations and unfortunately fish do not carry passports, so they must be managed on an ecosystem basis.

The marine stewardship framework directive outlines a transparent legislative framework for that ecosystem-based approach. In essence, it states the need for each nation to develop, in co-operation with others, marine strategies to be implemented to protect and conserve the marine environment, to prevent its deterioration and, where practicable, to restore marine ecosystems in areas where they have been adversely affected. Those marine strategies must, in accordance with the directive, contain an initial assessment of the current environmental status of the member state’s marine waters. They must contain a determination of what good environmental status means for those waters.

Many Members have referred to the fact that sound science is often lacking, that there are steps that we might like to take but we do not know whether we have the scientific basis upon which to proceed. That is why it is absolutely critical that those elements of the strategies that the framework directive calls for are implemented. Without that sound science base, it is extremely difficult to see how we can move forward.

I want to talk about what has been referred to as the discard ban, which of course is not yet coming in. The National Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations—many Members have referred to its briefing document—has highlighted serious concerns about the ban. It mentions recent research published in green policy and fisheries research that shows that the ban, in isolation, will generate little economic incentive to operate more selectively. It has also been suggested that the additional quota provided to enable the landing of by-catch could be too large for certain modern vessels and too small for less technologically advanced vessels. Unfortunately, some people appear to place more emphasis on the need to enlarge quota to deal with the landing obligation and to focus on the measures designed to eliminate by-catch in the first place. We heard some good examples from the hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) about selective gear and net mesh size, which can do just that. Also, ultimately, that could be done by trading quota.

The NFFO has focused on the fish species that in some cases have shown significant recovery over the past few years—referred to as the “good news” by some Members. Hake, haddock and herring have all shown some recovery, which is testimony to the technological capability of the industry and its efforts to fish more sustainably when required to do so. I think that it is also a vindication of the role that the quota system has played. The fact that stocks are recovering should not be taken as an excuse to say that the quota system should now be disbanded; they are recovering precisely because the quota system has been effective.

[Jim Shannon]

Will the Minister give way?

[Barry Gardiner]

I will happily give way. I must counsel the hon. Gentleman that I am not the Minister, although I am grateful for the accolade.

[Jim Shannon]

We have great designs for the hon. Gentleman.

Does the shadow Minister not share my concern, and that of many Members of the House, about the difference between the scientific evidence and the claims of those in the fishing industry who say that there are more fish in the sea?

[Barry Gardiner]

I absolutely share the hon. Gentlemen’s concern about the lack of scientific evidence. Indeed, I opened my remarks by saying that is one of the key problems. If we are going to base our policy on sound science, we need to establish what that science is. I refer him to his own remarks about Irish sea cod. He talked about the need simply to roll over the TAC in relation to Irish sea cod. However, the NFFO guidance on that states:

“A decade of draconian measures which have cut TACs, restricted days-at-sea, imposed tightened landing controls, introduced more selective gear and decommissioned a significant part of the fleet and obliged most fishermen to divert to alternative fisheries, has failed to generate the kind of recovery of cod seen in the North and Celtic seas.”

If it has failed to generate that recovery and the stocks are still in such a low state, it does not make sense to say, “Well, heck. Let’s just proceed anyway” and bust through any attempt to get the stocks back into a reasonable condition.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way again—he is being very gracious. The facts are that the sentinel fishery is an experimental fishery for the past two years, and the indications show that last year cod numbers were back in the sea, and this year shows even more evidence of that. That is what the fishermen are seeing and that is what the scientific evidence now shows, but that is not in the report. I wish that it was, because the opinion would be completely different from what the hon. Gentleman has referred to. The report is not up to date.

[Barry Gardiner]

I would have to rely on the Mandy Rice-Davies defence—“They would say that, wouldn’t they?” The point is that anecdote is not the basis of sound policy. We have to establish the facts. I am as keen to establish them as the hon. Gentleman and, I am sure, the fishermen in his community. Once we have established the facts, we can proceed with certainty.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) and other hon. Members for securing the debate, through the good offices of the Backbench Business Committee. I also pay tribute to the former fisheries Minister, the hon. Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon), as well as to the new Minister and the shadow Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) for raising various issues. We have had nine speeches from Back Benchers this afternoon, plus two from Opposition and Government Front Benchers.

Issues have been raised by all hon. Members about general fisheries matters, and the challenges faced in their dangerous occupation by fishermen right across Britain and Northern Ireland. Hon. Members have paid tribute to fishermen who have lost their lives over the past year, as well as to the many who have lost their lives over the past decade, and they have paid tribute to the central role of coastguards in safeguarding those in fishing and in relation to other issues.

The debate has mainly centred on the common fisheries policy. We are grateful that there has been a conclusion in relation to its reform this week in Brussels, but we and the Minister will now have to concentrate on two areas. The first is the issue of discards, and there is no doubt that it presents many challenges. The second relates to regional advisory councils. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North, I believe that, notwithstanding all the political difficulties, we must remain within the European Union. The EU does have a role, which will obviously come out in the debate and the consultation on the balance of competences. As the Chair of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), also emphasised, there is a role for the European Union, and that should be to determine the TAC.

There is also a role for regional advisory councils in managing the quota, dealing with the allocations and ensuring that the totality of fishermen have the best quality of incomes, because that is beneficial. I represent the constituency of South Down, in which there are the two fishing ports of Ardglass and Kilkeel, and I know that both the offshore and the onshore are central to the local economies in terms of job creation and the income that will supply other retailers and be of benefit to families, which is absolutely essential.

Among other issues raised were the roll-out of existing quotas, the whole dilemma in the north-east in relation to mackerel and the debate concerning Iceland and the Faroe Islands. That point was made by the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford). The situation has been going on for several years and requires urgent resolution. Anything that the Minister can bring to that particular debate in his various discussions would be greatly appreciated.

The subject of marine conservation zones has been raised, and we in Northern Ireland have also been confronted with that. Whether in relation to renewables in the Irish sea or anywhere around the British Isles, it is important that marine conservation zones simply help to supplement the fishing industry, and do not contravene or in any way undermine it. The one must supplement the other.

[Jim Shannon]

rose—

[Ms Ritchie]

I know that the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) wants to intervene, but I have several other points to make, and I have ensured that other hon. Members have had their say so far.

In Northern Ireland we have two particular issues, the first of which relates to nephrops. It is against a positive background, because fishing has been doing well, that we—and particularly the Minister—face next week’s Fisheries Council, which will decide about catch opportunities for 2014. It is traditional, but also frustrating, that those who make a livelihood from fishing expect bad news in respect of the TAC proposals published by the European Commission before the negotiations. What has made fishermen in the Irish sea all the more nervous this time is the failure to communicate the proposed quota for area 7 nephrops to the industry in advance of the Fisheries Council or at least at the same time as the other quota proposals. I know that the new Minister freely acknowledges that. He spoke to me about the issue the other evening.

On the basis of the scientific advice, the industry has, like officials, been able to make a good stab at the numbers. For prawns or nephrops in the Irish sea and the wider area 7, it equates to a proposed TAC reduction in 2014 of almost a quarter compared with 2013. A slightly better comparison shows that the scientific evidence demonstrates an 8% reduction from a year ago. Nevertheless, any reduction in the prawn TAC in area 7 would be unjustified. There are variations in the science year on year, but the same science confirms that the overall picture is stable, with prawns being harvested within the maximum sustainable yield principles. Surely that good news, combined with a recognition of the strides that have been taken by all fishermen in the Irish sea, provides sufficient reason to secure a roll-over of the 2013 TAC into 2014. I ask the Minister to make a special plea on behalf of those who are involved in nephrop fishing in the Irish sea. For us, nephrops are perhaps the only show in town.

The hon. Members for Banff and Buchan and for Strangford mentioned cod. There is an issue with cod in the Irish sea. By value and weight, the cod that are landed from the Irish sea equate to less than 1.5%. However, its iconic status pervades every demersal fishery. It is to be hoped that, come 2014, practical rules will apply that allow haddock and hake fisheries to be developed, while affording the necessary protection to cod. To achieve that, a roll-over of the 2013 quota for haddock in the Irish sea is needed. Against the background of a 17% increase in the stock, that is surely not too tall an order.

After 14 years of failed fisheries targets and recovery measures, Irish sea cod present a dilemma, but they should not be seen as a lost cause. It is regrettable that a huge gulf remains between the science on the stock and what the fishermen believe to be the state of the stock. Unfortunately, that is where I and my hon. Friend the Member for Brent North differ on this issue. I am deeply concerned about our local economy and local fishery. A further 20% reduction in the TAC in 2014 will do nothing to address the unknowns or the data deficiencies. The fisheries science partnership and sentinel fishery projects will grind to a standstill with such a reduction.

Fishermen are at a loss to know how they can prove the negative position with regard to that stock. In many ways, they have been a victim of their own success, thanks to the highly selective gears and the much-needed innovation in technology that was pioneered by Anglo-North Irish fish producers in Kilkeel. How can the fishermen prove that there are cod in the Irish sea when they use nets that are designed not to catch cod? More scientific technology is required. The promises to look at ways of addressing the problems, such as identifying the reason for the high level of unknown mortality in Irish sea cod, seem to have evaporated as far as the fishermen can see. However, as part of the new common fisheries policy, fishermen are further encouraged to develop new mixed fisheries and multi-annual plans. How can they do that when cod remains a choke species and so many unknowns remain in respect of that iconic fish?

I now give way to my neighbour, the hon. Member for Strangford.

[Jim Shannon]

I just wanted to remind the hon. Lady that her time is running out.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Ms Ritchie, I think that the hon. Gentleman was trying to help you by pointing out gently that your 10 minutes have concluded. Perhaps you could sum up your remarks quickly.

Badger Vaccines

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 16th October 2013 Westminster Hall

[David Morris]

I totally agree. Later in my speech, I will explain some of the technicalities behind what the hon. Lady has just articulated.

I pay tribute at this point to the work of Team Badger in highlighting the need for vaccinations. The group is led by Dr Brian May, CBE, and I know how much time, effort and money he puts into humanitarian and wildlife issues.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. I spoke to him beforehand, Sir Alan, and asked his permission to speak.

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman not only on securing the debate, but on supporting the cull. I support the cull, as do many others in the House, but many others do not. Does he recognise that bovine TB costs dairy and beef farmers millions of pounds? Should that not be the first reason for trying to continue the cull and for ensuring that badgers are eradicated?

[David Morris]

There is a cost to the issue, as there is with anything of this nature, but as I will explain later in my speech, there is a funding situation that can be annexed to involve Team Badger and various other badger projects.

Today’s debate comes during the badger cull and following the Opposition day debate on 5 June, in which a wide range of hon. Members participated. I believe that 5 June was the start of the process of bringing both sides together, to which I hope today’s debate also contributes. It is pretty easy for all of us to understand the opposition to the cull, but we must not characterise those in favour of it as being cruel. The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and farmers have the best interests of the countryside and the agricultural community at heart and want to help in the best way possible and protect badgers at the same time, but they believe, rightly or wrongly, that the spread of bovine TB will be significantly reduced if we cull 70% of badgers in the cull zones. That said, the last major cull from 1997 to 2007 was not deemed to have dealt with the problem to the extent that was hoped and cost £50 million.

Fishing Quotas

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 16th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)]

I am pleased to have secured this debate before the summer recess, as it provides us with a timely opportunity to consider the future of the fishing industry in the United Kingdom. Last month, the Minister provided details of the agreed reforms to the common fisheries policy, which provides the framework within which fishing in the UK will be administered over the course of the next few years. Its provisions are generally welcome, though its success will depend on how domestic fisheries are managed.

Last Wednesday in the High Court, Mr Justice Cranston delivered an approved judgment that will pave the way for the introduction of a new system of management that could be fairer and more environmentally friendly than its predecessor and that could provide an opportunity to reverse the fortunes of many fishing communities around the British isles. That is good news, although I sense that the path to this promised land will not be an easy one to travel along.

My interest and concern are for the inshore fleet that fishes out of Lowestoft in Suffolk, in my constituency. Like so many other fleets, it has had a raw deal in recent years. The Lowestoft fleet, which is a pale shadow of its former self, used to dominate the local economy. A significant contributory factor to its decline has been the way in which fishing quotas have been allocated in recent years. It is not possible to turn back the clock to the town’s glory years, but there is an opportunity to build an industry that can play a role in bringing back prosperity to an area that has struggled in recent years.

It is important to state at the outset that the Minister has achieved an enormous amount in the three years he has been in post. He has negotiated hard in the CFP reforms and delivered a settlement that is good for the UK. He has also listened to the concerns of the inshore fleet and made proposals to address those in the face of opposition from the producer organisations. His Department then defended this decision staunchly and successfully in the High Court. We owe him a debt of gratitude, for we have arrived at a position where we can provide a new beginning for the fishing industry in the UK. As Charles Clover concluded in his article in The Sunday Times, the Minister and

“his heirs have a once in a generation opportunity to throw the dice again on behalf of wild fish and the greater good”.

It is appropriate to say a bit about the inshore fleet and the under-10 metre boats—about the people involved and the situation they find themselves in today. Such boats comprise more than 77% of the UK fleet and employ over 65% of the fleet’s total work force, yet they currently receive only 4% of the total quota available to the UK. What is good for the under-10s is largely good for the ports in which they are based, and vice versa; they have considerable potential to deliver economic, environmental and cultural benefits for their coastal communities, many of which are among the most deprived in the country. They are also good for fish stocks, as theirs is a low-impact, sustainable form of fishing. Moreover, the income they generate is likely to stay in these communities and permeate down the supply chain, which has invariably been built up over many decades but which has been much eroded in recent years.

Today, that is very much the case in Lowestoft. It now has a small industry, but the infrastructure is still there and with the right policy framework it can deliver more for the area. The work of these fishermen still fishing out of Lowestoft should be contrasted with that of the eight affiliated vessels in the Lowestoft Fish Producers Organisation, which are all controlled by fishing interests based in the Netherlands. Those boats have UK fishing licences and hold British quota, but they contribute nothing to the local economy. Dutch-controlled vessels fishing British quota boast an annual turnover of £48 million, yet 1% of the fish they catch is landed in the UK.

In recent years, the under-10s have had a raw deal and in the Minister’s own words they have been “hanging on” by their “fingernails“. The root cause of their plight is the fixed quota allocation system introduced in 1999. As the under-10s did not keep records of their catch in the 1994 to 1996 reference period, the quota they received at that time was a best estimate, subsequently shown to be a major under-assessment, for which they have been paying ever since. Although there have been attempts to address the situation, as Jerry Percy of NUTFA—the New Under Ten Fishermens Association—has pointed out, with the under-10s starting from such a low level of quota in the first place, an additional percentage based simply on past allocations will be of little, if any, use.

Since 1999, the situation has got worse in many respects. The way the system was devised has meant that the producer organisations have been able to hold or acquire fixed quota allocation units, knowing that they could retain them if they did not use them. They could sell or lease them to the under-10s on their own terms, at their own whim and fancy. That conjures up the image of the under-10s taking on the role of Oliver Twist holding out the bowl for more food, only to be denied. Moreover, where reallocations have taken place, they have been profoundly unsatisfactory, as they have been neither permanent nor predictable, and they have invariably taken place towards the end of the fishing season.

The 2007 decommissioning scheme simply exacerbated the problem, creating more “slipper skippers”, with vessel owners entitled to retain the fixed quota allocation units even when their vessels had been decommissioned. A system has, thus, developed whereby the under-10s do not have enough quota to make a living and are in effect dying a slow, lingering death, while quota held by the producer organisations is not being used, and attempts by Government to encourage gifts of unused quota have invariably come to nothing.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for bringing this matter to the House, because it is important to him, to other Members in the Chamber and, especially, to me and Portavogie in my constituency. The problem is not just the quotas that are set, but those that are reduced by Europe. The Minister works energetically on behalf of the fishing industry in the whole of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, but does the hon. Gentleman agree that Europe needs to give quotas that will make the industry that I represent viable? The industry has evidence to support its belief about the numbers of fish in the sea, so it needs Europe to give them back.

Beef Cattle and Sheep (Carbon Footprint)

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 26th June 2013 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish) for bringing this matter to the Westminster Hall Chamber. Those hon. Members who represent agricultural areas will be aware of the importance of the carbon footprint in relation to beef cattle and sheep. I declare an interest as a farmer, although not a working farmer, and as someone who has lived in the countryside for some 40 years. The land that we have is rented out by adjacent farmers, who look after it well. I have spoken to the Ulster Farmers Union in Northern Ireland, which has given us a bit of a steer—if I may make a pun—and it has, along with the all-party group’s recommendations, given us some indication of where we want to go.

I am sure that I am not the only person here who watches adverts for cars with a low carbon footprint, who has read reports by environmentalists regarding our footprint as a country and has even been made aware of issues by children and grandchildren, coming home and telling us what they were taught in school. They tell us things we do not know and seem to have great knowledge and expertise.

It is incumbent on us all to be aware of the world that we live in and to do our best to leave a planet behind which our great-grandchildren can enjoy. One aspect of this is being told that we need to cut down our carbon emissions, otherwise global warming will wreak havoc on our country and our world. One of the main greenhouse gases is methane—we are aware of that—which is produced in large quantities by cattle. Agriculture is responsible for 22% of Northern Ireland’s greenhouse gas emissions, but that must be set against the fact that it has moulded landscapes, encourages biodiversity and brings money into the local economy by providing employment. I want to give a farmer’s perspective on the issue, and a Northern Ireland perspective as well.

Northern Ireland’s greenhouse gas emissions are responsible for 3.5% of the total UK greenhouse gas emissions. However, it is responsible for 7% of the UK’s methane and nitrous oxide, because Northern Ireland relies a lot more on agriculture than other parts of the UK. Therefore the carbon footprint is of greater importance for Northern Ireland than for other regions of the UK.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

Regarding the importance for Northern Ireland, does my hon. Friend agree that on this issue, like a number of others, it is important that the Minister, DEFRA and the responsible Departments in Westminster liaise closely with the regions—Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland —to ensure that best practice is adopted by all those concerned, throughout the UK, in trying to tackle a serious problem?

[Jim Shannon]

I thank my hon. Friend for a good intervention. I am confident that the Minister will give us some indication of that—I have no doubt that that will happen—but the regions my hon. Friend mentioned must work together with DEFRA.

As I have often said in this Chamber, agriculture in Northern Ireland is under pressure because it is being strangled by EU regulations. Young farmers go to college and learn new ways, then they come home and cannot afford to implement changes that would be beneficial, due to red tape and regulations. However, that is a debate for another day. European legislation dictates carbon emission reductions, but the support offered is sparse. For example, in some countries carbon sequestration is included, but in our current model it is not included, so our farmers would be at a disadvantage in a global market if a tax were to be imposed.

In the grassland used to graze cattle and sheep, carbon is stored in the soil, as the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton said, therefore less carbon dioxide is released into the atmosphere if we farm along those lines. That information could have major repercussions and calls into question our understanding of the carbon footprint of livestock. Although that might be a little bit technical and hard to understand, perhaps, for those who do not have knowledge about the land, it is a serious issue.

It is difficult effectively to evaluate the carbon footprint of raising livestock, because many different variables affect the amount of methane produced, such as the feed system it is raised on, pasture type, rearing time and genetic make-up. People may believe that a meat-free diet is the future because crops have a lower carbon footprint, however far from the truth that may be, but some issues are raised by such a way of life. When land is ploughed, carbon is released that would otherwise have stayed trapped in the carbon sink and that in turn makes it difficult to compare the benefits of growing crops. Furthermore, as the hon. Gentleman mentioned, 65% of UK farmland is suitable only for growing grass and would not be a viable option for growing crops. Some land would have to be in pasture all the time, because it cannot be used otherwise.

[Ms Ritchie]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way and congratulate the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish) on securing this welcome debate. Is the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) aware of the impact of the cost of fertiliser on crop production and the impact of that on the debate on greenhouse gases?

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. I am aware of that. Certainly, the Ulster Farmers Union and the farmers on the land in the Ards peninsula and mid-Down are all aware of the costs of the fertilisers and their impact on the land and the waters round about Strangford lough and the Irish sea.

If we ceased to graze cattle on these pasture lands, they could not be used to produce more food and the productivity of our land to food conversion would stop. Biodiversity would also be negatively affected. Land used for grazing livestock provides habitats for animals, which creates biodiversity. Biodiversity has a positive impact on the environment, but that is another factor that is not included when calculating carbon footprints. Many factors that need to be considered when calculating carbon footprints are not considered, and that could negatively affect our farming industry here in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Calculating the exact amount by which biodiversity benefits the environment is also difficult. To combat our greenhouse gases, we need more investment in research into farming practices. For example, how big a role does carbon sequestration actually play? We also need to educate our producers to better understand the various issues so that they are able to run their businesses more efficiently.

There is a lot of work to be done. The competitive farming systems team spends a third of its money on sustainable and competitive farming systems, yet most small farmers cannot think of that amount of their income leaving in that way. In Northern Ireland, we have many small farmers. The average size of a farm in Northern Ireland is between 65 and 70 acres, but there are many hobby farmers and part-time farmers. The impact on such farmers is greater, and the impact on us in Northern Ireland is greater still.

Sustainability is crucial. Raising livestock sustainably is not solely the responsibility of producers; retailers also play a pivotal and vital role, which I hope the Minister takes on board. Retailers must enable consumers to make informed decisions about the products they buy so that they can take into account animal welfare, nutritional value and environmental impact before purchasing the product. There has been much talk in the press over the past week or two about the green, amber and red system that tells consumers about a product’s fat content, nutritional value and so on. That, too, will have an impact on farmers, through the retailers.

Retailers can make deals to source meat only from farms with lower emissions, which are better for the environment and are more cost-efficient, but they must stop squeezing the farmer with lower prices while maintaining or increasing prices in their shops, thereby putting pressure on farmers while increasing their own profit margins. Let us be realistic about achievable goals, rather than squeezing the farmer every time we try to achieve specific targets. That is a different story for a different day, but it comes off the back of this debate.

The question that we need to answer is simple: how will we produce enough food to feed a worldwide population of 9 billion by 2050? The answer lies with finding more efficient ways to raise livestock that do not compromise the needs of future generations. Enforcing a vegetarian diet would be unsustainable because the fertilisers used to increase yields, particularly nitrates, pollute water supplies and lead to other consequences. We are endangering the already fragile fishing ecosystems, and the carbon footprint of cattle and sheep is too high. Those issues must be fully considered.

Although I fully understand the need to reduce the carbon footprint, it cannot be done at the expense of farming in the United Kingdom and, more specifically, Northern Ireland. In any consideration of the topic, the farmers’ views and opinions must be paramount. No system will work without their co-operation. Any enforcement of new regulations must be informed and subsidised and cannot be allowed to affect the cattle or the land. The Ulster Farmers Union recently highlighted an interesting figure:

“A recent European Joint Research Centre (JRC) study, highlighted that Brazilian beef has the largest carbon footprint of imported animal products, and with this in mind it is clear that it would be extremely difficult for the EU to achieve its CO₂ emission reduction objectives.”

It is all very well to point the finger at our local farmers and to tell them what they should do, but other producers across the world are riding roughshod over the emissions objectives.

Any importation of animals with a high carbon footprint defeats the purpose of any targets set, and the local agriculture industry must be allowed to produce, sell and achieve reasonable aims. I urge great caution when considering the enforcement of a further burden on our agriculture sector. As one farmer said to me, and this is important,

“there are only so many targets we can reach before we realise that we haven’t had time to actually produce anything at all—just time spent filling in forms and working at machinery.”

Let us farm and help those who farm to do their best.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kerry McCarthy]

I will get on to that in a moment. It was one of the first points I was going to make.

My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent South is by no means a vegetarian—he enjoys eating meat—but he made a persuasive case at that time for looking at the environmental impact of the livestock sector. It is a shame that he could not be here, because he perhaps has more credibility on these matters than I do in the eyes of the farmers present.

However, let me turn to my first point and respond to the intervention from the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish). The problem with today’s debate is that it has, for understandable reasons, focused very much on farming in the UK. I understand that Members are keen to support the industry and the farmers in their constituencies, but that has led to a bit of a distortion, with a focus on grazing and grass-fed livestock, although I entirely agree that their environmental impact is less serious.

I had an interesting meeting with the Campaign to Protect Rural England on Friday and was told how in some areas of Wales the land previously used for sheep grazing was being used to grow blueberries, or given over to forestry, which were both more profitable. I accept that the areas at the top of the hill would not be suitable for that, but the CPRE made the case for alternative uses. Given the price of blueberries in the supermarket, perhaps people would gain from venturing into growing them.

[Jim Shannon]

The hon. Members who have spoken in the debate have focused on local farming, but I think every one mentioned farming elsewhere in the world, where the impact and the carbon footprint are greater. Does the hon. Lady acknowledge that if livestock farming plays a role—and we believe it may—other countries need to do their part? Does she feel that that is something she should focus on?

[Kerry McCarthy]

I entirely support the move, if people are going to eat meat, towards locally-sourced, sustainable, grass-fed cattle. That is far more environmentally friendly, in view of issues such as food miles; and, in the case of organic meat, issues of pesticides and fertilisers are also addressed. I support that. It is not the ideal solution, but it is a lot better.

I had a piece published on the topic in the New Statesman last week; 97% of the world’s soya crop goes to farmed animals. As to the question of how to feed the world without a partly meat-based diet, it is estimated that we could eliminate most of the worst of world hunger with about 40 million tonnes of food, but at the moment nearly 20 times that—760 million tonnes—is fed to animals each year. My article was to an extent a criticism of the Enough Food IF campaign, which is about feeding the world and lobbying the G8 to address global hunger. The campaign criticises the fact that 100 million tonnes of crops go towards biofuels, and says that biofuels are a bad thing; but, as I have said, 760 million tonnes go towards feeding animals and it seems completely silent on that point. That needs to be addressed when we consider the devastation of the rain forest and its environmental impact.

Common Agricultural Policy

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 18th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Heath]

Obviously, we try as far as possible to eliminate potential disadvantages. I cannot say that we will be successful across the board, because this is a negotiated settlement. Where possible we try to make sure that we all play to common ground rules, but with local interpretation. It is clear, for instance, that lowland dairy farming in this country is very different from growing olives on a Greek island. Different criteria apply and we want to make sure that we recognise the differences as well as the common basis.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I appreciate the Minister’s understanding of this complex issue. Many farmers who have had to leave their comfort zone and consider doing other things will also be impacted by the CAP changes, so will help be made available to those who wish to diversify?

[Mr Heath]

I am grateful for that question. A lot will depend on the local determination in Northern Ireland for the options under pillar two, which provides the capacity for supporting diversification. The relevant Northern Ireland Minister will have to decide the extent to which voluntary modulation applies and whether the pillar two schemes will be devised to support diversification. The capacity is there and the decision on whether it will happen or not will be a local one.

Badger Cull

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 5th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart). His comments were very much along the lines of those that I will make in opposing the motion tabled by the Opposition to stop the badger cull. I commend the Secretary of State for his introduction, which was very balanced and set the scene as regards the reasons why this has to go ahead. The hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) and I agree on many things, but we have different views on this. However, he gave a balanced point of view that was very well put, and I commend him for that.

As Members will be aware, the proposal for a badger cull is not directly applicable to Northern Ireland. However, the Ulster Farmers Union, as an original part of the National Farmers Union, has asked me to put forward a viewpoint on its behalf in this Chamber. Some years ago, the research programme on badger culling and control was brought to Northern Ireland in two geographical areas of the Province. The Ulster Farmers Union supported that then, and it still does. It supports the pilot badger cull scheme here in England and wants to see it implemented in Northern Ireland as soon as possible.

My constituency, which takes in part of the mid-Down area, has the highest levels of TB in the whole of Northern Ireland, and it is transferred across other constituencies as well. Farmers come to me at least once a month with a TB-related problem, so it is clearly an issue for me on behalf of my constituents. There is a need for the cull and for the process that has been proposed. It is not about eradicating all the badgers, as some people have suggested, but about controlling them. I live on a family farm back home. I have two badger setts on my farm and the badgers are healthy, but farmers around me have all had experience of TB. We can therefore understand why farmers are concerned about the issue.

[Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con)]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the Government ultimately have a duty of care to the farmers and to their stock?

[Jim Shannon]

I do accept that; it is a very key issue for us all. That is why I am speaking about the importance of looking after the farmers’ stock but also their families as well. The common key factor for all of us is the presence of badgers, which, if they carry TB, need to be controlled because the cost of farmers’ annual loss of cattle has topped £100 million. The loss of cattle has been tremendous on the UK mainland, but over in Northern Ireland as well. The right hon. Gentleman made an important point about the health of the animals, but there is also an impact on the families. Some farmers who have come to me over the years have had to have their whole herd destroyed because of TB. The impact on their financial, emotional and physical welfare is tremendous, and we cannot ignore that. Whenever we talk about the need to control badgers—not eradicate them—we must also put into the equation the impact on the farmers.

In a previous life, before I came here, I was a Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly and a member of the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development Committee. About five years ago, we carried out an investigation and report into bovine TB in Northern Ireland. We spoke to the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development in Northern Ireland, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and representatives from the Republic of Ireland. We also spoke to bodies from across the world, including Australia and New Zealand, which the Secretary of State mentioned in his introductory comments. My hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley), who cannot be here because he has constituency duties, chaired the Committee, on which we both served and which recommended controlling badgers. It is vital for that to be put on the record.

In the Republic of Ireland, badger control measures have resulted in a decrease of TB in cattle by almost a third, as has been mentioned. That is close to the Northern Ireland border. If the Republic can do it and it works, that is a prime example not far from the land mass of the British Isles.

In New Zealand, as the Secretary of State and others have mentioned, the most comprehensive control of badgers—not just through culling, but through other measures as well—has reduced the number of herds infected from 1,700 to 70, which is a dramatic decrease. Many methods can be used to achieve this.

Some raise the issue of scientific evidence, but such evidence exists in the Republic, New Zealand, Australia and many other countries across the world. It was clearly presented to the investigation undertaken by the Northern Ireland Assembly’s Committee for Agriculture and Rural Development in my previous job before I was elected here.

There has to be proactive control of badgers in heavily infected areas. That can reduce the level of TB in cattle. My constituents are very concerned about TB. Although there are incidences of TB in England and Wales, we want to see it eradicated in Northern Ireland as well. We want Northern Ireland and the Republic to be disease free. It will help us all, given the multi-million-pound industry: agri-food is worth £4 billion to Northern Ireland’s economy. It is important to us.

Marine Management Organisation (Data Accuracy)

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Monday 20th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)]

The establishment of the Marine Management Organisation was deemed at the time to be a sensible approach, although the decision to move to the north-east was one I argued against. The loss of expertise within the organisation was never going to be easy to rebuild overnight, and the use of consultants is expensive and never quite provides the degree of continuity an organisation needs—it loses its embedded knowledge. Good catch data management and information are at the heart of fisheries management, stock assessment, targeted enforcement strategy and the sustainable use of our marine environment. Our national fleet, and the communities and livelihoods they support, depend on them.

When I was contacted by a scalloper in my constituency, Terri Portmann, about her problems making sense of the figures available via the MMO, DEFRA and the EU, it became clear that there was a mismatch that in turn was causing serious problems for those in the industry. For 18 months, we have been trying to understand what the problems are and where they lie so that the industry, hand in hand with officials, can try to make the system work better for everyone. Ms Portmann has, through her own diligence, been pursuing clarification, and I have asked a series of parliamentary questions. Others have also been pressing the Minister on this matter.

Unfortunately, I have encountered a worrying pattern of obfuscation and inaccuracy. The MMO and DEFRA have both offered assurances that everything is fine, but when we have asked for evidence of this, every—and I mean every—request for information made either through a freedom of information request or environmental information regulations has met with time extensions and the need to request internal reviews. There has been constant delay. Every internal review has required that a complaint be made to the Information Commissioner’s Office and, importantly, every complaint so far—more are still pending final outcomes—has been upheld, as a result of which the result the MMO has been ordered to provide information it had previously withheld or to admit that there is no such evidence. I must repeat that final point: no such evidence.

The ICO’s decisions have demonstrated that in every case when requests have been made to substantiate claims made by officials about statistics and management, either there has been no evidence to support the MMO’s position or quite the opposite—there has been evidence only to the contrary. The chief executive officer of the MMO, James Cross, wrote to Ms Portmann in August last year after a meeting at which concerns were raised about the statistics. He wrote:

“As mentioned at the meeting, the systems operated within the MMO, and by the other UK Fisheries Administrations, to collect and process data from fishermen are subject to ongoing external EU inspections on various aspects of their operation. Commission staff, inspectors from the European Fisheries Control Agency, and the EC Court of Auditors have all visited to check on the UK’s compliance with obligations; issues are from time to time raised but these are then rectified as quickly as possible.”

All seems fine, but he continues:

“EU scrutiny regarding data reporting systems has included working through from the initial ‘raw’ data on activity right through to the detail reported to the Commission to ensure completeness and accuracy in the capture, processing and final reporting of data. These inspections and the checks built into the systems, in addition to MMO’s own checks and balances, give the team high confidence in the robustness of the system”.

“Great”, we thought, “No need to worry”, but when we asked for sight of all these reports demonstrating the robustness of the statistics, the CEO’s officials eventually had to respond and admit that he was wrong and that no audits of processes and raw data handling had been carried out by any of these organisations. It is of grave concern that the senior official at a non-departmental public body is willing to try to hoodwink stakeholders and does not even know himself whether statistics are fit for purpose. Despite the fact that Ms Portman has written to him and the chair of his board, neither has responded to the assertions made by him.

It may be helpful to outline another specific instance. For some years, the UK has overfished and not reported to the Commission the correct western waters scallop effort figures for some years. From local fisheries officers to the chief executive of the MMO; from directors of departments within the MMO to the chairman of the board; from DEFRA officials through to the Minister himself—all have received assurances that the Commission was fully aware of this and accepted it because of the early “close out” of statistics in the subsequent year.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the hon. Lady for giving way on this important issue. She mentioned fisheries, which are an important issue for me as well. In Northern Ireland, fishermen and the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development’s fisheries division have carried out data-gathering exercises in the Irish sea showing that the numbers of white fish and cod fish have increased greatly. Does that not underline her point that the data collection seems right, but that its imposition, and how it might improve the fisheries division, is not carried through?

[Alison Seabeck]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. He emphasises a point I will make later, which is that because of our concerns about the scallop data, those fishing other species are rightly concerned that the data on which their activity is based are also inaccurate.

Even the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee received assurances from the MMO and DEFRA, through the National Audit Office, that the EC was aware and had sanctioned the statistics. However, documents that the MMO was recently forced to disclose by the Information Commissioner’s office show this to be simply untrue. E-mails from the MMO’s statistical unit to DEFRA officials at the time we started questioning the unreported overfishing state that the EC was not aware of the 2009 overfishing, for example—specifically, that the EC had not been told—and admit that only a 95% uptake was reported, when in reality there was an overfish of 10. Because of overfishing of effort or quota, the UK runs the risk of being fined—as I am sure the Minister is well aware—and facing infraction proceedings.

Although I have been able to identify 2009 as the first year in which that occurred, it appears to have happened in 2010, 2011 and 2012 . We have heard time and again from officials that this is all due to the EC imposing short timescales for monthly and end-of-year close-out. That ought to be a nonsensical claim, as western waters vessels are fitted with e-logs. Landing declarations are made in real time and sales notes are required to be submitted within a week of landing, so how can the UK not meet the monthly close-out targets due by the 15th of the following month or the year-end target of six weeks for the end of year? Indeed, why is the UK still some months behind in some cases? The MMO controls and enforces e-logs and sales notes. There has been no substantial action against vessels or processors in the submitting of data. Despite that, MMO staff have grown in number since 2010, from 190 to 320, so what on earth are all those people doing? Clearly they are not involved in meeting the UK legal requirements for data submission.

DEFRA must also bear a heavy responsibility for the western waters scallop debacle. Documents released by DEFRA show that officials were aware of the effort problem for some years. Indeed, internal DEFRA memos show that the person who eventually took over the western waters job in 2010 questioned why nothing had happened. By then, towards the end of 2010, DEFRA still did not act or, importantly, speak to the industry properly. Through May and June 2011, officials had some meetings and discussions with selected members of the industry, but did not advertise, publicise or engage with this fragmented industry of vessels and processors—the people who did not belong to national associations. By late August 2011, DEFRA had decided a closure was likely. In early September it finally started to make that publicly known and closed the fishery in October. Even the internal e-mails from that period show that, behind the scenes, DEFRA was withholding its full intentions from the industry and even discussing the necessity of further consultation, if only for the appearance of consultation and to avoid criticism later—at least that would be my view.

The easy answer was a realignment of effort. After my meeting with the Minister last May, Ms Portmann wrote to the EC, which suggested that this was a good idea. There was a further meeting with officials, who, it was felt, were not in favour of even trying to get an uplift. As more recently released documents show, that option was being positively considered, yet somewhere along the line they simply changed their minds. Will the Minister say what the basis for that was?

Scallops might be a specific area where the MMO and DEFRA are failing at marine management. However, because of the questionable data trails—this touches on the point made earlier—and the clear attempts to prevent me and other interested parties from gaining access to all the information, we decided to dig elsewhere to see whether the problem was specific to scallops. What we discovered was more of the same—other sections of the industry may want to question the data following this debate. I am sure it is in the interest of both industry and organisations such as the Marine Conservation Society to ensure that we fully understand what is happening, rather than rely on what at times seems little more than guesswork.

We questioned the MMO’s annual report for 2011-12, which was laid before this House. So far, for all the targets listed as “met” that we have questioned—we have asked for sight of evidence that they were indeed met—we have encountered the usual freedom-of-information handling by the MMO and, as a result, MMO complaints. There is no evidence that these targets were all met. In fact, the MMO has been forced to release evidence confirming that they were not all met. The Information Commissioner’s findings question a number of the MMO’s assertions.

There are other targets for which we are still waiting for a response, some months after they have been asked about, and we are also looking for further evidence linked particularly to the business plan that the MMO has produced for 2013-16. We really do not want the MMO to get caught out again. We want the figures that are given to us and placed before Parliament to be factually correct.

Further requests relating to other basic and core functions such as ensuring that licences and variations are issued in accordance with the relevant laws have met with evidence that they are in fact not, and that there is not even guidance in place for staff to follow to ensure compliance. If we add into this pot staff conferences at four-star hotels, a hospitality bill that appears not to meet the suggested standard pricing, and total bills for the hotel alone that were in excess of £80,000, we can see why people in the industry who are struggling are getting angry. I would suggest that in austere times some of those costs should be looked at again.

I find it deeply disturbing that an organisation of which we should be genuinely proud has a culture of promoting secrecy and obfuscation from the top down when challenged by those most affected by its decisions. It is an organisation that goes to great lengths to hide its failings. It is only through the persistence of my constituent, who is in the Gallery tonight, and others in the industry that we have managed to get the necessary information to surface. The Information Commissioner’s Office has also played a key part in this.

I put it to the Minister that the time has come for a full and detailed investigation into the nature of these figures, not least because companies such as that of my constituent are going out of business. Ms Portmann has lost her business, and that is in part due to the fact that there are inaccurate data available, and that people in the industry are not clear about the nature of the effort that they can get or the activity that they can undertake. The Minister really should take this seriously and not continue simply to accept the papers that are put in front of him by officials. This needs to be properly investigated.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Thursday 16th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paterson]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to stress the supreme importance of encouraging the growth of pollinators all round, and our healthy bees plan provides £1.3 million to fund the NBU, with its inspection, training and diagnostic services, which encourage people to take up beekeeping.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

In Northern Ireland, the predicament of the bees is just as critical as it is in England. Has the Secretary of State had any discussions with the Northern Ireland Assembly, and specifically the Minister responsible for this area, Michelle O’Neill, to ensure that the United Kingdom strategy is put in place across the whole of the United Kingdom, including England and the regions?

[Mr Paterson]

This issue is devolved, as the hon. Gentleman knows, but I will be having a meeting with the devolved Ministers very shortly, and bees and pollination will obviously be one of the issues we will discuss.

Upland Sheep Farmers

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Glyn Davies]

I certainly agree with that intervention, and I share the hon. Lady’s hopes.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for being so gracious in giving way. One issue brought to our attention in Northern Ireland—the same will be true of Wales, too—is the fact that building up all the pedigrees of some of these sheep herds can take 10 or 20 years, which makes them quite expensive. To lose them all in one go is a tremendous tragedy for the families concerned. Does that underline the fact that there must be help from both the Government and the Welsh Assembly?

[Glyn Davies]

The point about losing whole flocks is an important one, in view of the breeding that has gone into them. I know from my experience when I was actively sheep farming that one particular line in the flock could be hugely valued. Along that particular line, it was possible to get to know the sheep as individuals. When all those sheep are just suddenly taken, it is devastating.

This is such a wide-ranging debate and I could have picked a thousand different aspects to discuss, but I want briefly to cover two further aspects and I ask the Minister to help me on one point of clarity. First, there is the emotional impact of what has happened. Working with livestock is not the same as working in other forms of industry. Animals are living creatures and farmers, in a funny sort of way, get to know them as individuals. My flock comprised about 1,000 sheep, but there were lots of individuals among them whom I got to know. It is not the same as producing widgets, for example, because it is dealing with living animals.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Heath]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. In those extreme conditions of very heavy snowfall, with violent winds—in Cumbria, violent easterly winds coming in off the sea and causing the drifting—the sheep did what sheep do, which is to turn their backs to the wind and walk, and they found themselves trapped against walls or obstacles or under drifts. But what compounded that was that our sheep flocks, sadly, are not in good condition—because of the weather, because of events over many months now, because of the fact that, as the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire said, fluke is a real problem at the moment. Many issues have come together in a concatenation that is causing the difficulties that many of our livestock farmers face.

[Jim Shannon]

It was a pleasure to have the Minister in my constituency last week so that he could hear at first hand from the farmers in the area what the issues were. He will have heard from the farmers, but also from elected representatives from the Assembly, from Members of Parliament and from Members of the European Parliament, what measures the Northern Ireland Assembly had taken to help to address some of the issues for the farmers in Northern Ireland. Will he be able to use those examples to help other regional bodies, such as the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish Parliament?

[Mr Heath]

It is important that we all learn from one another. The answers will not be the same in every part of the United Kingdom, and the proportional scale of difficulties will be different. We must listen to what each other are doing and hopefully come towards the right solution, but also listen to what the farmers themselves in the constituent parts of the United Kingdom are telling us. Certainly that is what I wanted to do with regard to England. I cannot speak for what happened in Northern Ireland and say whether it was the right solution, and similarly for Wales. I can see what has been done, but it seemed to me that my responsibility was to listen to the farmers and their representatives in England, and to do what they asked me to do so far as I could, in order to mitigate the difficulties that farmers were facing.