Oral Answers to Questions

Jeremy Quin Excerpts

Thursday 11th May 2023 Commons Chamber

[Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD)]

2. Whether he has held recent discussions with the Prime Minister on the observance of the ministerial code as it relates to the civil service.

[The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Jeremy Quin)]

The Prime Minister has made it absolutely clear that Ministers are expected to maintain the highest standards of behaviour at all times in accordance with the ministerial code. Working relationships, including with civil servants, should be professional and appropriate.

[Munira Wilson]

Civil servants living in my constituency and across the country feel utterly dismayed that their professionalism and integrity are constantly being undermined by statements from serving and former Ministers, repeated attacks on them and, indeed, the Prime Minister’s failure to condemn what was exposed as bullying and intimidatory behaviour. Does the Minister agree that, given the importance of civil service and ministerial relationships and his role in upholding the ministerial code, phrases such as “activist blob” or a “blizzard of snowflakes” are not in keeping with that code, and what will he do about it?

[Jeremy Quin]

I rather dispute the premise of the hon. Lady’s question. There is and always should be a professional relationship between civil servants and the Government. We should all ensure that we maintain the impartiality, objectivity and integrity of the civil service. We should support civil servants in doing the important job that they do, which includes upholding the impartiality of the civil service, about which the Opposition have a few things to learn.

[Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)]

3. What recent assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the use of external consultants by the civil service.

[The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Jeremy Quin)]

My focus is on ensuring that the civil service has enhanced skills to provide all forms of advice where appropriate. However, there is also a role, as there is for other Governments and the private sector, for specialist expertise. Where this represents good value for money in delivering for the taxpayer, we will use it.

[Mary Glindon]

But with thousands of civil servants—hard-working, experienced civil servants—in the Public and Commercial Services Union having to strike for a fair pay deal themselves, how can the Minister justify hiring expensive consultants instead of using the in-house expertise that there evidently is across our wonderful civil service?

[Jeremy Quin]

We do make use of that expertise. I am keen to see civil servants providing advice across the full remit of their capabilities. Embedded in civil service learning are modules about consultancy, and we ensure that we use civil servants where appropriate in that area. However, there is a role for specialist consultants and specialist expertise. That can add value for the taxpayer. I used to be the Minister for Defence Procurement, and we would not have ship designers employed in the civil service when there are real specialists out there who are up to date and effective. There will always be a role for expertise that comes from outside Government, as well as using the brilliant expertise of our civil servants themselves.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Minister.

[Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab)]

I agree with the Minister that there is a role for consultants, but the spending on consultants is spiralling out of control. After the scandal of spending waste on personal protective equipment the Government have not taken the action needed. Consultants cost twice as much as a civil servant, yet spending on consultants has been spiralling. The Paymaster General lifted controls on private contracts and on reporting them in February. The Cabinet Office itself is one of the worst offenders for spending on consultants, and Ministers are not enforcing public reporting of departmental spending so that we can find out how much is being spent on consultants, with the Treasury itself being one of the worst examples. Will the Minister commit to cutting the millions spent on consultants where they are not needed and where we can use civil servants instead, and to getting a grip on wasteful Government spending?

[Jeremy Quin]

I will always endeavour to ensure that no consultant is ever employed where they are “not needed”, to quote the hon. Lady. We always ensure that we use the propositions that represent best value for money —that has to be the basis on which we operate, and we will continue to do so. I remind the hon. Lady that we managed to secure £3.4 billion of efficiency savings across Government last year. We did that by focusing on costs and making certain that we drove them down. We will continue to do so, and we are committed to ensuring that we get best value for the taxpayer.

[Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con)]

4. What progress his Department has made on strengthening national resilience.

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[Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)]

5. How many people his Department has identified as unsuitable for speaking at Government events based on their social media history.

[The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Jeremy Quin)]

The Cabinet Office has drawn up guidance to help protect civil service values. Taxpayers’ money should not unwittingly be used to pay for speakers linked to abhorrent organisations or individuals who promote hate or discriminatory beliefs, which could bring the civil service into disrepute. We do not hold a central record of speakers identified as unsuitable, but as the guidance has been described to me as “codified common sense”, I trust that the number will be very few.

[Justin Madders]

Well, if the guidance is common sense, the Minister will have no problem with publishing it, will he? At the moment, there is Government guidance to ban people from speaking at Government events, but we have not seen it. We do not know who is on that list, and we do not even know if the people on the list have been told that they appear on it. That is more like North Korea, is it not?

[Jeremy Quin]

I have nothing to hide. If the hon. Gentleman would like it published, I will publish it. It is internal guidance, and it therefore tends to be internal, but I will lay a copy in the Library. He is a sensible person and will appreciate that there are certain abhorrent organisations that we should not pay or give a platform to and cause embarrassment to our civil service or our country. But I will publish the guidance.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the SNP spokesperson.

[Jeremy Quin]

It may shock the hon. Lady, and I apologise, but I cannot recall her exact parliamentary question. I recall the parliamentary question of the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders), in which I believe he asked if it was my intention to publish the guidance. It was not our intention to publish it, but I have nothing to hide and am very happy to publish it. It is internal guidance; it will be adapted by different Departments. It is sensible to have guidance to ensure that civil servants know what they should be doing when invitations are issued to people who will be paid and given a platform in, and could cause embarrassment to, the civil service.

[Kirsty Blackman]

In the response to my written question last week, I was told that the due diligence and impartiality guidelines

“avoid invitations being issued to individuals and/or organisations that have provided adverse commentary on government policy, political decisions, approaches or individuals in government”,

in order to “retain impartiality” in the civil service. That is the opposite of what the Government are asking universities to do in the Higher Education (Freedom of Speech) Bill. Why is there one rule for the Government and another rule for universities? How is it impartial to only allow civil servants to hear speakers who agree with the Government?

[Jeremy Quin]

I appreciate that the hon. Lady has not had the opportunity to do so, and I look forward to her having that opportunity, but if she were to read on from the phrase that she quoted, which I assume appeared in the press, it refers to “adverse commentary” on Government policy

“that could undermine the Civil Service’s position on impartiality and create reputational damage.”

The guidance goes on to say that it is entirely possible for contrarian views—views critical of Government policy—to be shared with those who are at the point of policy formation. I want my civil servants to be fully informed of the arguments against Government policy. What is not appropriate is to have individuals paid and given a platform to create embarrassment for the civil service and potentially for the UK as a whole.

[Dr Luke Evans (Bosworth) (Con)]

6. What assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the national emergency test on 23 April 2023.

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[Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (SNP)]

8. Whether he has had recent discussions with Cabinet colleagues on the impact of the publication of the resignation honours lists of the right hon. Member for South West Norfolk and the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip on public trust in (a) politicians and (b) political institutions.

[The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Jeremy Quin)]

It is a long-standing convention present under successive Governments that outgoing Prime Ministers can draw up a resignation list. Any names proposed are subject to the usual propriety checks.

[Gavin Newlands]

An Electoral Reform Society poll found that just 7% of people supported stuffing more peers into the Lords in the former former Prime Minister’s resignation honours list, after he had already bloated the Lords with his brother, a Russian oligarch, cash-for-peerages Tory treasurers and now his father. After just seven weeks in office, the former Prime Minister is seeking to anoint her Tufton Street supporters in the Institute of Economic Affairs and the TaxPayers Alliance as life peers. In a cost of living crisis, will the Government listen to the public and block both the Prime Minister’s predecessors’ resignation honours lists?

[Jeremy Quin]

As I say, this is a long-standing convention that has gone on under successive Administrations. It continues to be a convention. It is typical, according to convention, that the Prime Minister forwards lists on having received them from former Prime Ministers, but only after they have gone through the necessary and relevant checks; that does take place. As the question is about trust in political institutions, may I take the opportunity to congratulate the SNP on finding an auditor that is prepared to work with it and wish the auditors the best of luck in the challenges ahead?

[Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)]

9. What steps his Department is taking to protect civil service impartiality; and if he will make a statement.

[Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con)]

17. What steps his Department is taking to help ensure impartiality and neutrality are maintained in relevant areas of public life.

[The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Jeremy Quin)]

All civil servants are required to follow the civil service code, which sets out the four core values, including impartiality. All members of the senior civil service are in the “politically restricted” category, which places additional restrictions on political activity. In addition, there is a requirement that contacts between senior civil servants and leading members of Opposition parties should be cleared with Ministers. The impartiality and perceived impartiality of the civil service is constitutionally vital for the conduct of Government. I believe it is the responsibility of everyone in this House to preserve and support the impartiality of the civil service.

[Michael Fabricant]

Impartiality must not only be done; it must also be seen to be done. What reputational damage does the Minister think has happened since Sue Gray was in negotiations with the Leader of the Opposition?

[Jeremy Quin]

It is, I believe, wholly unprecedented. It is particularly important that permanent secretaries, of all people, should conduct themselves in a way such that the impartiality of the civil service cannot be called into question. We should all support them in doing so. My right hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere (Oliver Dowden) updated the House through a written ministerial statement, and I can assure my hon. Friend that consideration of this issue continues.

[Elliot Colburn]

The principle of civil service impartiality is important to my constituents in Carshalton and Wallington, and indeed to many other Members’ constituents. I was therefore surprised to receive a set of trolling emails from someone using their civil service email address. Could the Minister outline whether that is acceptable, and—following up on the question from my hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield (Michael Fabricant)—what reputational damage does he believe has been done by the actions of the Labour party?

[Jeremy Quin]

The rules, which I have already set out, along with the fundamental principle that civil servants do not take actions that could lead to their impartiality being questioned by an incumbent Administration—or any future Administration, for that matter—are well known to current permanent secretaries, I am certain. I am sure that is also the case for ex-permanent secretaries, which of course includes the Leader of the Opposition. As I have said, in this House we all have a role in protecting the impartiality and perceived impartiality of the civil service. On my hon. Friend’s specific point, if he shares more details with me, I will happily look into it. It is very important that the impartiality of the civil service is maintained at every level.

[Duncan Baker]

Although, of course, impartiality and neutrality are important and conflicts of interests must be avoided from a national perspective, we do not talk enough about the situation in local government. Does the Minister agree that local government and local officers must also remain impartial and neutral, and how do we ensure that happens across the country?

[Jeremy Quin]

I do not want to comment on the specifics raised, because I am unfamiliar with them, but I would say that, in carrying out procurements under public contract regulations, contracting authorities in both central and local government are required to take appropriate measures to effectively prevent, identify and remedy conflicts of interest arising, so as to avoid any distortion of competition and ensure equal treatment of all economic operators.

[Mr Speaker]

I call Pete Wishart.

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[Clive Efford]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. Does the Minister feel that civil service impartiality was compromised in any way by having to deal with the fast track for covid contracts, or by the way in which the Government responded to the accusations of lockdown parties in No. 10 Downing Street?

[Jeremy Quin]

As to the former, I do not believe so; my understanding is that all the rules were followed in that regard and it was done appropriately. In relation to the latter, that is subject to an ongoing investigation by the Privileges Committee, and therefore I would not seek to comment on it.

[Pete Wishart]

Mr Speaker, I’ve started, so I’ll finish.

The Secretary of State for Scotland recently wrote to the head of the civil service to say that no UK civil servant should work for the newly appointed Minister for Independence in the Scottish Parliament, even though we have a pro-independence majority in the Scottish Parliament and up to 50% of the people now support independence. Will the Paymaster General ensure that impartiality is introduced by making sure that no civil servant is engaged in any work defending and promoting the Union in the UK Government?

[Jeremy Quin]

I will not be doing that. I am not familiar with the letter mentioned. We have a Government of the United Kingdom who are proud of the Union we serve. The Government are convinced that we are better together as a country, and I believe that is the view of the overwhelming majority of the people of Scotland, as was the case in the referendum, which I seem to recall was a once-in-a-generation opportunity.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Minister.

[Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall) (Lab/Co-op)]

Our civil servants are impartial, committed and hard-working professionals. They deserve our respect for keeping this country going during the pandemic. Instead, what we are getting from Ministers is unacceptable workplace behaviour and accusations of being responsible for Government failure. It is not civil servants who have put us through the Tory psychodrama and the disastrous Budget, so will the Minister take responsibility for the backlogs that constituents are facing up and down the country and stop shifting the blame on to hard-working civil servants?

[Jeremy Quin]

The hon. Lady will not find me criticising civil servants who are hard-working, who do their job, who are committed and who continue to provide tremendous expertise to our country, but I take issue with her earlier points. We take any allegations of bullying seriously, and we need to ensure that they are all followed up. I do not know if the same can be said of the Labour party—people in glass houses should not throw stones. I think there were more allegations even today about activity inside the Labour party. There was five years of antisemitism that was not addressed, and I do think the Labour party should sort out its own issues before trying to sort out the Government’s.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

11. What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology on the potential merits of designating UK genomics databases as critical national infrastructure.

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[John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

T2. I was heartened earlier by the Secretary of State’s comments about resilience. As he knows, this is part of an international wake-up call, especially in the EU and the United States. Unfortunately, that was slightly undermined by the comments of his Minister, who was straight back to the old, tired dogma.Does the Minister recognise that local and national Government have a crucial role as a customer for firms that need regular orders and work flow? When will our Government catch up with other countries all round the world and give priority to British industry, British agriculture and British workers?

[The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Jeremy Quin)]

One of the things that depressed me about leaving the Ministry of Defence was the fact that I would no longer be across the Dispatch Box from the right hon. Gentleman and his worthy campaign to make certain that, in defence in particular, orders go to UK companies. He is right, and the Government absolutely accept that many areas of our national life must, for defence and security reasons, be provided by UK companies. However, there are huge advantages to working internationally as well, including in the sphere of defence. He knows the answer: from Typhoon and F-35 to Type 31 orders, we can do both.

[Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)]

T7.   Government agencies such as the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency, the Passport Office, Natural England and the Environment Agency among many more take major decisions that affect the lives of our constituents and businesses based in our constituencies. Delays and inefficiency are causing no end of problems. Will the Minister outline what actions are being taken to improve the efficiency and accountability of Government agencies?

[Jeremy Quin]

I thank my hon. Friend for his question. We constantly have efficiency reviews, and those will continue, and we work closely with the Treasury to make certain that the customer on the ground gets the right service and that that happens as cost-effectively as is humanly possible. That is how we managed to get £3.4 billion of savings through the system last year. We will continue to work at it. It is a huge task, but we are absolutely committed to driving those savings and good service for the customer.

[Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD)]

T4. Let me put on the record my thanks to Ministers for backing my campaign to ensure that police authorities across the country can sell disused police stations such as Teddington in my constituency below market value for community benefit. I hope that they agree that the same principle should apply to Government Departments. Can Ministers please advise me on when the Office of Government Property will finally reissue its updated guidance on the disposal of public assets, so that bids for community benefit such as affordable housing and GP surgeries can be prioritised?

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[Sally-Ann Hart (Hastings and Rye) (Con)]

I would like to highlight the hard work of local civil servants at East Sussex County Council, Rother District Council and Hastings Borough Council. I do not know their politics, and they have always worked with me in a positive way. Will my right hon. Friend join me in thanking them for their work locally to deliver services, especially during the local elections last week?

[Jeremy Quin]

rose—

[Oliver Dowden]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Come on!

[Jeremy Quin]

We are all struggling over the opportunity to endorse what my hon. Friend says, because it is absolutely right and we do not say it enough. A huge amount of hard work is done by civil servants at local and national level. We appreciate the work undertaken by them and I very much welcome her bringing it to the Chamber today.

[Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

T6. The Paymaster General and I have been having a parliamentary tussle to get some basic factual information about the steps the Government are taking following the recommendations in Sir Brian Langstaff’s second interim report. Five hundred people have died since the inquiry was set up. On average, one person dies every four days. This group of people have very little trust in the system, which has let them down for so many decades. I know that the Paymaster General is a decent and compassionate man, so I ask him to step away from the Government non-speak and to provide the basic factual information that has been requested to that group of people, who are waiting desperately for the Government to act quickly.

[Jeremy Quin]

I take enormously seriously what the right hon. Lady says on this issue, on which she has campaigned long and hard and very successfully. We are now in the final stages, as she knows. We have received the second interim report on compensation, which we did not anticipate until February, but it has arrived and I am delighted that it has. It is real stuff to get our teeth into while we wait for the final report. We are doing a lot of work at pace.

To reassure the right hon. Lady, I chaired a meeting with Ministers from across Government last week. I have a bilateral meeting next week and I anticipate having more ministerial meetings, which I will chair, the week after. She has asked me to set out every single internal meeting I have on this subject, which is not normal in the formulation of policy. I do not intend to list every single meeting that I have internally or with other Ministers, but I assure her that we are working at pace to come up with a constructive response to the report.

[Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)]

I join the Deputy Prime Minister in congratulating all those who participated in the magnificent coronation, not least the armed forces, who enjoyed a few rehearsals to get it right and absolutely did so. Will the Minister for Veterans’ Affairs kindly update the House on our manifesto commitment to support veterans who served in Northern Ireland?

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[Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)]

A month ago, the Minister came to the House and told us that he was dealing with the contaminated blood report “at pace”. A month later, he has just repeated that phrase. Can he say what “at pace” means and when he will tell us the timescale?

[Jeremy Quin]

I came promptly to the House to make a statement after receiving the second interim report, and I said then that the Government have always been focused on ensuring a comprehensive response at the conclusion of the inquiry. I also said that that did not preclude steps being taken earlier, if possible. I cannot illuminate that any further, but work is continuing. The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that five years of work has been done by an extremely eminent individual, who has produced an extremely good and interesting report. It is for us to work through that, but it does need to be worked through and considered, as is the case with all reports presented to Government. We need to make certain that it is given the attention it requires.

[Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)]

I think it was about 10 years ago that I said to the Government that we ought to have an emergency test and an emergency system, so I am very pleased that we got it up and running and that 93% of people managed to get a signal, albeit that some of us got it one minute in advance of 3 o’clock, which I thought was particularly good. The Minister identified, quite rightly, that there was a problem with the Three network, which is being resolved. Will there be another test to show that at least 99% of alerts are getting through?

[Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP)]

My constituent, Brian, lost his mother in 2020. His family is one of far too many who have struggled for years as a result of the contaminated blood scandal. Those families want to see action now, not “in due course”, and “working at pace” does not cut it when it is the pace of a snail. I ask the Paymaster General, when will compensation be paid to all those infected or affected by the scandal?

[Jeremy Quin]

I sympathise hugely with the hon. Lady’s constituent. That is one of many, many—far too many—tragic incidences that we are aware of in the House. That does not alter the fact that the compensation scheme needs to be done properly and effectively. We need to come back with a solution and an answer to the report, and to make certain that it is done appropriately. As the hon. Lady knows, those who were infected were paid interim compensation last year of £100,000 per person. We still need to work through what the report envisages.

[Selaine Saxby (North Devon) (Con)]

In response to an earlier question about the emergency test, conversations with the Three network were mentioned. What reassurance can be given to constituents in remote rural areas, including some of my constituents who never received their alert and who are not with Three? I declare an interest: I am a Vodafone customer and my alert went off the next morning, as I was coming up the M5.