Access to Work

Esther McVey Excerpts

Tuesday 16th July 2013 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

This Government are committed to increasing the number of disabled people in employment and building on the important work of Liz Sayce to improve and strengthen the Access to Work scheme.

Last summer we established an expert panel to advise the Department on how best to take forward Liz Sayce’s recommendations. Today I wish to announce a set of improvements to Access to Work following the panel’s final phase of work.

We know that personalised support is key to securing successful employment outcomes for disabled people. Access to Work aims to offer all customers a tailored service, so we will grant advisers more flexibility and discretion to make personalisation a reality. Access to Work advisers will be able to:

Offer up-front payments to customers who need their award in advance in order to take up or remain in employment;

Build tolerances into awards where needed to give customers who require a more flexible package the confidence that support is available.

This Government recognise the important role work experience can play as a route into employment. While Access to Work already supports Youth Contract work experience, I can announce today that we will set aside £2 million from the access to work budget to support disabled people to access a range of opportunities that help them get ready for employment. These will include traineeships, sector-based work academies and supported internships.

We also want to support disabled people who seek out their own opportunity with an employer. Access to Work already supports disabled people undertaking a Jobcentre Plus work trial. To provide disabled people with more choice about their route into employment, we will extend Access to Work to individually established work trials where there is a realistic prospect of employment after the trial.

Liz Sayce described Access to Work as the best-kept secret in Government. We have undertaken a 12-month targeted marketing campaign and positive results are coming through. We will continue to market and promote Access to Work for young people and for people with mental health conditions. We will also continue to up-skill staff and raise awareness of the scheme within Jobcentre Plus.

We recognise that more needs to be done to help those who acquire a disability while in employment to prevent them from falling out of work. We have already announced plans for a new health and work assessment and advisory service in 2014. We will ensure that this service has full awareness of Access to Work as well as the means to conduct a smooth handover to the programme, where appropriate.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank Mike Adams OBE and the expert panel for their invaluable insight and contribution to the reform of this important programme. We will keep listening to experts and users of the programme in order to continuously improve its operation.

Equality 2025

Esther McVey Excerpts

Tuesday 16th July 2013 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

In accordance with the Cabinet Office’s guidance on public bodies a triennial review of the Equality 2025 advisory board (EQ2025) has been undertaken. It examined whether the functions the non-departmental public body (NDPB) performs are still required and, if so, what the most appropriate delivery model is.

I am today publishing the review, which concludes that there is a continuing need for independent strategic, confidential expert advice supplemented by lived experience of disability. It also concluded that this did not need to be delivered by an NDPB and recommended options for successor arrangements.

The current EQ2025 members’ contracts will come to an end at the end of September, and at this point the NDPB arrangements will cease.

I am very grateful for the excellent work of EQ2025 in advising on Government policy and in helping develop Fulfilling Potential, the Government’s disability strategy. It is crucial that policy is developed and implemented informed by expertise on disability issues and the lived experience of disabled people. I am committed to ensuring that Government have access to in-depth knowledge of disability, and see this review as an opportunity to get advice from an even wider variety of experts, individuals and organisations and broaden the regional scope of that advice.

I am today initiating a consultation seeking views of disabled people and others to help shape the way forward.

I will place a copy of the review in the Libraries of both Houses of Parliament.

Disabled People

Esther McVey Excerpts

Wednesday 10th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

I welcome this opportunity to put fact where there has been confusion and information where there has been misinformation from the Opposition; to explain the context of the welfare reforms, the vision and the collaborative work done with disabled people and their organisations; to reply to the points, one by one, that I have heard today; and to explain why the cumulative impact assessment is neither possible nor the correct approach, because doing one would provide inaccurate information—something, surely, that no one in the House would want to support.

To be clear, the Government’s overarching ambition is to enable disabled people to fulfil their ambition to be full and equal members of society. That is what we aim to do, so I am pleased to inform the House that, despite what we have heard today, under this Government, disabled people are already experiencing improved outcomes and reduced inequalities as against non-disabled people. Data published last week show that since 2009-10 disabled people have seen improved achievements at degree and GCSE levels and improved employment rates, and there is a reduced proportion of disabled people in relative income poverty. Inequality has also been reduced in a number of areas. The gap in outcomes compared with non-disabled people has narrowed for GCSE achievements, employment rates, income poverty for families with someone who is disabled, and in reported choice and control over people’s lives—something I would have thought the House would welcome.

[Mr Byrne]

rose—

[Esther McVey]

One thing I am sure we can all agree on is the complexity of disability and the very different life experiences that everyone lives through, so let me talk about the range of people we are dealing with: from people like Stephen Hawking, who has a brain the size of the planet but is very physically disabled, to people who are mentally severely disabled but physically very able, and everybody else in between—from fluctuating to sensory to cognitive. We have to support each one of those. We have to find individual, tailor-made support for each of those people and provide it in an holistic approach, and that is what we are doing, bringing together social care, health, education and all the benefits. What I will say, before—

[Mr Byrne]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. The hon. Lady is not for giving way. It is up to her whether she wishes to give way, and I think she has signalled often enough.

[Esther McVey]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. As I have been left with limited time and have many answers to give, I will not be giving way to the right hon. Gentleman, but I will raise some of his points. I would like to point out—he overlooked this—that we spend £50 billion a year on support and benefits for disabled people. That is a fifth higher than the average in Europe, double the rate in America spends and six times that in Japan.

The right hon. Gentleman made an unusual speech today, talking about his new single personal budget. As per normal, we heard no details whatever. How would it be funded? Would it be means-tested? Would he abolish PIP? The right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) was asked whether he would reverse the spare rooms subsidy—something he said he would not be doing—but obviously the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) thinks he is above his own leader. He is changing his policy on the hoof.

[Mr Byrne]

rose—

[Esther McVey]

I have said that I will not be giving way to the right hon. Gentleman, because he spoke rubbish for hours. We will go to—[Interruption.] Crikey! Temper, temper!

The hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) asked various questions about the work capability assessment and Atos. I really do not get how Labour Members can forget that they introduced it in 2008 or that they gave the contract to Atos until 2015.

[Mrs McGuire]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Order. We will have one Member stood at the Dispatch Box, not two.

[Esther McVey]

I have got nearly two hours of questions to answer, so I will keep going.

The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) talked about the Remploy figures in Stoke. I can tell him that 110 people left the factory and that 82 engaged with the extra support we were giving. Of those, 30 are now in work and 36 are on Work Choice.

The right hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke) talked about housing and the spare room subsidy. It is quite incredible that people are not looking at the complexities, at how social housing was not built, but collapsed under the previous Government—we are now building it—or at how the stock is used properly. One thing nobody talked about is the fact that among those on the waiting lists—the 1.8 million—are children who are disabled. There are people on those lists who are disabled. We are looking after those people too.

My hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng) talked about—

[Tom Greatrex]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Perhaps you could provide me with some guidance. The Minister is obviously choosing not to give way to those on the Opposition Front Bench, but is it appropriate or courteous for her to refuse to give way when she is referring to a point that I have raised in the debate?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

That is not a point of order. It is in the hands of the Minister whether she wishes to give way or not.

[Esther McVey]

My time appears to have been squeezed, but I am giving the House the facts and the reality of the situation. I have very little time to do that.

When the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) talked about a cumulative impact assessment, and about the “Destination Unknown” report, did he know—perhaps he did not—that the report was based on just six households and that it ran to over 100 pages? The people who have talked about cumulative impact assessments today do not realise that they are not based on the complexities of the issue or that the benefits will not have been rolled out until 2017. We cannot stop part-way. It is a dynamic benefit, so none of that is possible.

The Opposition do not seem to understand that, as we cannot do a cumulative impact assessment in the way that they suggest, we have to look at the vision and at what we are trying to create and ask how we are going to get it right. There are key things that we do with that. We have slowed down the process hugely to ensure that we monitor it and look at the progression and at the roll-out, and should anything along the way not be in line with our overall vision, we would stop and alter it. We have done that throughout. That is what we do when we cannot do a cumulative impact assessment. I do not give out misinformation; we get it right. We will also have independent reviews in 2014 to ensure that we are getting it right. Many of the changes, particularly those involving PIP and DLA, will not involve looking at those on indefinite awards until October 2015, after all the analysis has been done.

I am amazed that the Opposition ruggedly pursue something, knowing that they could not do it. As the right hon. Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire) said, Labour never did this. There was a reason for that, but we have found a way round it, which is to analyse the process as we go along. We are implementing very small roll-outs in order to get this right.

I smiled when I heard Citizens Advice being quoted frequently today. Is that the same Citizens Advice that hired Polly Billington, a Labour adviser, in November 2012? She will be head of its campaigns and communications, and is a former senior adviser to the right hon. Member for Doncaster North. Is that why we have to have those definitive quotes all the time? I find it so. Maybe that is why the Opposition are now smiling.

I also want to refer to my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard), who spoke passionately about everyone fulfilling their potential. That is key to what we are doing. Our latest document, called “Making it Happen” came out on 2 July, and it was produced in collaboration with disabled people and their organisations. This is about supporting them and finding out what their needs, their aspirations, their desires are, and finding out what they want to do and how they want to be portrayed. They have the same dreams as every one of us—yes, they want a job; yes, they want to get married; and yes, they want a family life—and we are supporting them in that.

That is what universal credit is all about. It is about helping people to get into work, to do as little or as much as they can do. It is about giving them extra support, and about tailored allowances. It is also about a tapered relief, which is something that the Labour Government never introduced. Under them, the system was very statist, with people being told, “You must do 16 hours”, and a 98% tax rate sometimes being applied. We are not doing that.

It is taking a long time to get this right, but it is the right thing to do and I am very proud indeed of what we are doing—

[Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab)]

claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).

Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.

Question agreed to.

Question put accordingly (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the original words stand part of the Question.

Remploy

Esther McVey Excerpts

Thursday 4th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement on Remploy.

Today’s announcement by Remploy means that jobs for approximately 70%—515—of the disabled employees in the remaining Remploy factories and CCTV sites could be saved through the commercial process. The sites and businesses are subject to final negotiations with preferred bidders looking to take over the businesses. Hon. Members will agree that our first concern must be Remploy employees, and they have been informed of the latest decisions by the Remploy board today. There are now 234 disabled people at risk of redundancy and they will take part in individual consultations with Remploy. All employees affected will be supported by the £8 million tailored package of support to help them move into mainstream work.

If I may remind the House, the Government announced in March 2012 that we would implement the recommendations of the Sayce review to withdraw funding from Remploy factories and redirect it to enable more disabled people to get jobs in the labour market. We have always made it clear that this is about supporting individuals in factories and disabled people across the country. As it stood, Remploy factories were losing £50 million—a sixth of the specialist disability employment budget. That money was not going to people but to failing factories, and that cannot be right. As announced in the spending review, the Government have confirmed £350 million to support disabled people to move into, remain in or progress in work.

On 6 December 2012, I tabled a written statement to inform the House that the Remploy board had commenced stage two of its commercial process. The aim was to transfer the remaining seven businesses in 18 factories and the 27 CCTV contracts, potentially affecting 1,016 employees. The Remploy board identified three businesses as potentially viable and appointed KPMG, as a professional agent, to manage the sale of the CCTV, furniture and automotive businesses. Of the 27 CCTV contracts, 17 are subject to the commercial process. KPMG, appointed by Remploy, is currently working through that process, which it hopes to complete shortly. I am pleased to be able to tell the House that eight of the remaining 10 contracts have either been taken back in-house by the local authorities or moved to alternative service providers. This means that approximately 50 employees will be, or have been, transferred to new employers. However, it is likely that the remaining two contracts will be terminated. I can also confirm that in addition to CCTV, the furniture businesses based in Port Talbot, Sheffield and Blackburn will remain in the commercial process.

I confirm that Remploy has received a number of good-quality innovative bids for its automotive business. In the next few weeks, KPMG will continue commercial discussions with a number of bidders who have expressed an interest in acquiring the whole business, which has 217 employees, including 179 disabled people based in the sites in Birmingham, Coventry and Derby. KPMG aims to have identified a preferred bidder in a matter of weeks. I will provide further written updates on progress when details become available. I can also confirm that offers have been received for the E-Cycle business, which has factories based at Porth and Heywood. I am pleased to say that the E-Cycle business will remain in the commercial process, as Remploy begins to work with the preferred bidder, with the aim of completing the business sale in mid-August.

Following independent and expert advice, Remploy has carefully considered best and final offers received for the three other businesses: Frontline textiles, Marine textiles and packaging. Remploy, together with an independent panel of experts including KPMG, has assessed the viability of these best and final offers against a series of published criteria, including the continued employment of disabled people, value for money and the sustainability of the businesses. Our priority throughout the process has been to safeguard jobs, which is why we have offered a wage subsidy of up to £6,400 for disabled employees to encourage interested parties to come forward.

Despite considerable interest in the Marine and Frontline textile businesses at Leven, Cowdenbeath, Stirling, Dundee and Clydebank, Remploy did not receive a best and final offer for these businesses as part of the commercial process. Additionally, there are no viable bids for the packaging businesses based at Norwich, Portsmouth, Burnley and Sunderland. These sites will now move to closure. In line with the Remploy redundancy procedures, all 284 employees at the packaging, Frontline and Marine textile businesses, including 234 disabled employees, will be invited to individual consultation meetings over the next 30 days to discuss the options and the support that will be available to them.

Our experience with stage 1 shows that businesses such as textiles that did not have commercial interest and closed afterwards reopened as social enterprises or new businesses. In fact, nine sites have been sold on that basis. This has resulted in employment opportunities for the original employees. For example, businesses have opened under new ownership in Bolton and Wigan, and at similar factories, which are looking to create 35 jobs for disabled people, including former Remploy employees. In addition, Remploy has already confirmed that it has received an asset bid from a social enterprise organisation for the purchase of assets of the textiles business. This may create potential job opportunities for those disabled people.

We have put in place a people help and support package for all disabled employees to provide a comprehensive range of support for all disabled individuals made redundant as a result of Remploy factory closures. This tailored support is available for individuals to access for up to 18 months after their factory closes and includes access to a personal caseworker and a personal budget to help individuals with future choices. I can confirm that the personal caseworkers have already begun engaging with employees on stage 2 Remploy sites. This has provided an important opportunity to give individuals currently at risk of redundancy the information they need about their opportunities moving forward. We will continue to do everything we can do in finding them work.

We have also built into the package a community support fund to provide grants to local voluntary sector and user-led organisations to run social job club projects to support disabled people and their families. Some 32 organisations have already been awarded funding, supporting 748 ex-Remploy employees locally. There has been welcome success during stage 1 in terms of the number of disabled former Remploy staff who have found alternative employment. We have every expectation that job outcomes from stage 2 will be similar. As at 28 June, 400 of the 1,103 disabled former Remploy workers who chose to work with us are currently in work and a further 328 are working with Work Choice to undertake other training activities.

In closing, let me confirm that the factories going forward in the commercial process are the CCTV contract, the furniture businesses in Port Talbot, Sheffield and Blackburn, the automotive sites in Birmingham, Coventry and Derby, and the E-Cycle business in Porth and Heywood. Those that will be closing are the Marine and Frontline textile businesses in Leven, Cowdenbeath, Stirling, Dundee and Clydebank, and the packaging businesses in Norwich, Portsmouth, Burnley and Sunderland. I have written to all affected MPs and parliamentarians, inviting them to a briefing session today at 4.30 pm in Room S, Portcullis House. I commend this statement to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs McGuire]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. If the Secretary of State wants to say something, he should make his own statements and not heckle.

Given that the Work programme—[Interruption.] This is ridiculous, Mr Deputy Speaker, frankly. Given that the Work programme is not performing for disabled people, can the Minister say how the former Remploy workers are going to be supported in their quest for employment?

Finally, if the Minister looks at the areas where the Remploy closures are happening, she will find that there are unemployment rates of 7.5%, 8.2%, 8.1%, 7.4% and 7.9%—nearly double the national average—in the majority of cases. Does she really think that the closure of these factories today is an indication that she is really there to support disabled workers?

[Esther McVey]

I am led to believe that the etiquette of the House is to come here first to give a statement, which is entirely what I did. I believe, too, that this is a working parliamentary day—a full working day—so all the processes we undertook were carried out to the best possible standard. People were informed through a correct process and in the correct way. I am glad that we can put that on the record.

Moving forward, what this was all about was supporting disabled people. We had a situation in which £50 million—a sixth of the entire budget—was not supporting individuals, but going into failing factories. We cannot allow that to be case. We have therefore made sure that we support those individuals. There are 8,500 disabled people in the constituency of the right hon. Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire), but only 29 of them, along with two non-disabled people, were employed at Remploy, making a total of 31 people. The Remploy factory in her constituency turned over £71,000 a year, but actually lost £439,000 a year.

I have faith in Remploy employment services to be able to find those people jobs. Since 2010, Remploy employment services have found a job for 109 people with the same disabilities. That is 109 in two years, while there are only 29 disabled people at this factory. Those are the statistics for the right hon. Lady’s constituency, and they are the same for many others.

I did indeed look into the MOD contracts. There are various criteria, which have to be adhered to—the cost to taxpayers, for example, and various others—and I also looked at article 19. It was put in place, which meant that Remploy factories could be considered, but article 19 also says that offers have to be viable and value for money, which was not the case.

On the asset bid, I said that no best and final offer came forward, although there were expressions of interest in the Marine and Frontline textiles businesses. An asset bid, however, has now come forward from a social enterprise, so we have faith that this can move forward. Our criteria for the bid involve, first of all, the employment of disabled people.

Let me add, to put the right hon. Lady’s mind at rest, that following the submission of assets bids during stage 1, the factories in Wigan, Wrexham, Oldham, north London, Motherwell, Bridgend, Bolton and Birkenhead have reopened.

I described as a success, and warmly welcomed, the process during stage 1 which led to 400 people obtaining jobs and 328 being involved in some form of training, because that has happened at a faster rate than has been the case following any other regular redundancy. Furthermore, nine factories have reopened.

I have read the written statement made by the right hon. Lady in November 2007, and the report of the oral statement made during the same month by the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain). At that time, everyone was looking for a way of making the factories work. The Labour Government put in more than half a billion for modernisation, but that did not work. They looked into whether an increase in public sector procurement was possible, but it proved not to be, following an overestimate of 130%.

The right hon. Lady also forgot to mention that she had closed 29 factories in 2008. In that instance, 1,637 people were not tracked, and did not benefit from an investment of £8 million and the provision of personal caseworkers. We have done all those things. I have met ex-Remploy workers. I went to Talit’s house in Oldham, and asked him what he wanted, and I met Chris from Burnley here at the House of Commons. We helped to reshape the whole package with the help of those people.

We have done a great deal, and, although there is more to do, I am proud of what we have done.

[Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that at a time when there are 6.9 million disabled people of working age in the United Kingdom, we need to find a better way of using the budget that is available, rather than supporting loss-making factories which employ only a tiny fraction of those people?

[Esther McVey]

I entirely agree. We must proceed with care and consideration, and we must also listen to the views of disability groups, advisers and experts, all of whom say that they would like to see more disabled people in mainstream work. That is what we must do: provide proper, sustainable, full-time jobs.

[Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)]

Today’s announcement will not affect the Remploy factory in Aberdeen, because it has already closed, although a social enterprise has been running the textiles business very successfully, which suggests that the factory had the potential to be more successful than the Minister has suggested. However, the social enterprise was formed by the more able workers, and those who have remained unemployed are the most disabled. Do the Government think that there is still a need for sheltered workplaces in this country?

[Esther McVey]

I agree with what the hon. Lady has said about what happened in Aberdeen. People have come together, and some of the workers involved have made progress. However, the most severely disabled need to be helped into work and supported while they are there. We have therefore announced a £350 million strategy, on which we shall be working over the summer. Moreover, in July we shall be launching a two-year awareness campaign at an employment conference, bringing together employers, employees and disabled entrepreneurs

[John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)]

As the Minister knows, a social enterprise bid has been submitted for factories in Coventry, Birmingham and Derby. It has received considerable public support, including from me. It is well financed and well advised, and above all it is inclusive. Can the Minister suggest a way of ensuring that it succeeds?

[Esther McVey]

At present, that bid is still part of the commercial process. There have been several significant bids for the automotive industry. KPMG is currently working on the process with Remploy. We must ensure that the best bid is successful, so that there are jobs now and there will be jobs in the future for those disabled people.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

On Monday, I asked the Minister how many disabled people stayed in a job after 12 months. She said:

“Of the nearly 13,000 people who have started on Work Choice, a third—30%—have stayed in work.”—[Official Report, 1 July 2013; Vol. 565, c. 595.]

Given that many disabled people have been employed for 12 months, has she assessed why 70% of them are not staying in work long term?

[Esther McVey]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. We are looking at that, at what we can do and at the best way forward. That is why we have a brand new, two-year specialist disability employment strategy, which will start later in July, to see what is the best support we can give to those people.

[Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)]

Could my hon. Friend confirm for people in Norwich what kind of support package they will have? She mentioned something about access to personal budgets and similar support.

[Esther McVey]

My hon. Friend asks a good question: what support do we offer and how do we provide that support? It is tailored to what the person needs, whether it is help with CVs or extra training, or support into the workplace. Therefore, it is dictated not by me but by the person who is coming forward who needs that help.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

The Minister referred to the Wrexham site. She should claim no credit whatever in respect of Wrexham. It was she and Remploy who made the decision not to allow the business to continue there, and it has now moved to an alternative site. The factory remains closed and empty. When the Government asset-strip the Wrexham site, what will they do with the proceeds from the sale of the land?

[Esther McVey]

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be pleased to know that the Wrexham site is being sold with a view to making 10 to 20 jobs available for some of the ex-Remploy staff. That is the reality, which is far from the picture he is painting.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

The Minister will be aware that I have always been and remain opposed to the closure of the Remploy factories, but given the amnesia among those on the Opposition Benches, may I remind her that when the last Labour Government closed the Remploy factory in Bradford, they gave next to no support to the workers there and did not even monitor whether they found a job? Does she agree that that was totally unacceptable and that what is most important is that we do everything to find these people, who want and deserve to work, a job? The Government have a duty to help them as much as they can.

[Esther McVey]

My hon. Friend raises many key points, which are correct. Stages 1 and 2 were so difficult because there was no blueprint in 2008, and those people were not supported, tracked or monitored. It was shameful of Labour not to do that.

[Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)]

I do not understand why the Minister is misleading the House by saying that the Motherwell factory has opened. It absolutely has not. A year after the factory closed, many of the workers still do not have a job. There is no guarantee that when that factory is eventually opened by someone else any ex-Remploy worker will get a job there.

[Esther McVey]

I read out the names of the factories, including Bolton. It is anticipated that up to 10 employment opportunities for disabled people will result as social enterprises come forward. The hon. Gentleman is right: the factory may not be open at this moment but it is going through the process of opening, so considerable work is being done. That is why I can say that that has happened and is happening—we have been dealing with it for two years, knowing that it is happening.

[Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that work programmes for the disabled should be efficient but, most important, they should be effective?

[Esther McVey]

My hon. Friend is correct. They have to be effective—that is what everybody wants—but the answer is more complex than that, because they have to be tailor-made and we have to look at the individual. So, yes, they must be efficient, but first and foremost they must be effective, caring and tailored to the individual.

[Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab)]

But is not the truth that amid all the Minister’s spin and management-speak, she is strangling Remploy to death, and there is no prospect of the most vulnerable disabled workers in their 50s who work there all the time getting jobs in mainstream employment? By the way, her description of the 2008 programme is a total travesty. There was a £550 million subsidy for that, which she has cut savagely, and there was a programme for getting people into mainstream work, too. Also, she has given no guarantees, despite my asking the Secretary of State, and nor has the preferred bidder, who is based in Yorkshire, that the Neath Port Talbot site at Baglan will remain open. Can she give a guarantee on that now?

[Esther McVey]

I have a couple of points to make to the right hon. Gentleman. There was no spin in what I said; those were the numbers, and he is more than welcome to verify them. As for his comment about strangling, that is incorrect, too. I would say “liberating”. That is why some of the factories that closed have reopened and we are supporting them as best we can. If I were him, I would claim no credit for spending £555 million in 2008 on a modernisation process that went nowhere, or for estimates for contracts in the public sector that were grossly exaggerated—by 130%—and which never came to pass. Ours are real, they have been justified, they are monitored by an expert panel and KPMG is involved as well.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

To put today’s statement in context, is it not fair to say that over the past three years Remploy employment services has found employment for 35,000 disabled and disadvantaged people, many of whom have similar disabilities to those employed in the factories?

[Esther McVey]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. That is exactly what it has been doing. It has found people jobs in mainstream work at a fraction of the cost. It can do it, we know we can do it, and that is what we are going to do.

[Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)]

As far as I am concerned, Remploy was one strand of social services to help people with disabilities and give them dignity. More specifically, however, what is the Minister going to do to help Remploy in Coventry to develop a social enterprise there? It is facing problems with the acquisition of the land. Will she meet me, along with one or two of my colleagues, to discuss that?

[Esther McVey]

I will indeed meet the hon. Gentleman to discuss that. I should add that that is one of the automotive businesses, and it has attracted considerable interest because it is a viable business. KPMG is currently working on that with Remploy, and I will table a written statement shortly about what will happen there. The hon. Gentleman is right, however, that this is about dignity and supporting disabled people, and that is what we are doing.

[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

Following on from the comments of the Chair of the Work and Pensions Committee, the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg), many of us are interested in the details of the Government’s national strategy for helping disabled people back into the world of work, whether through Jobcentre Plus, social enterprise, or supporting job clubs. My hon. Friend has talked about work that will be done in the summer, so will she give an undertaking to come back to the House when Parliament returns in September or October to update us on the national strategy, because all of us have disabled people in our constituencies who want to get back into the world of work, and we are keen to understand how we can engage with them and the Government to make sure they do so.

[Esther McVey]

I will indeed come back to the House to speak about our national employment strategy; that is only fair and correct. We have been working on it for some time. We have been analysing the Work Choice and Work programme figures and looking at other social support, such as job clubs, and we have developed for the first time ever this community support fund and opened 32 different sites across the country helping almost 750 disabled people.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

The disabilities Minister has talked a lot about opportunities and moving forward, so is she satisfied that in Hull in the first year of the Work programme only 10 people with disabilities were found work? Is that acceptable?

[Esther McVey]

As the hon. Lady says, we are working on the Work programme and taking huge strides forward, and I am looking at the specialist disability support such as Work Choice and how to reshape it to make it even better.

[Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)]

In the last Parliament we on the Work and Pensions Committee looked at the Labour Government’s decision to close a number of Remploy factories, and I have to say that the collective amnesia of Labour Members, which was most ably demonstrated by the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain), who oversaw the closure of Remploy factories in Wales when he was Welsh Secretary, is extraordinary. The people concerned is what is important here, however, so can my hon. Friend the Minister give us a sense of the additional disabled people who could be helped into work as a result of these changes?

[Esther McVey]

My hon. Friend asks a very good question: how many more people can be helped into work, and into mainstream work? That is what we are doing. We now have £350 million to do that. We have got to look at what works, get value for money and support as many people as possible.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

First, may I echo the positive message from my right hon. Friend the Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire) about the advance notice given? That certainly compares very favourably with the MOD. On Cowdenbeath Remploy, there will be great disappointment in my constituency and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Glenrothes (Lindsay Roy), and the Minister knows the excellent work done by us and my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown). Will she meet the three of us as soon as possible to discuss what the options are for the two factories in Fife?

[Esther McVey]

I will indeed. I have met the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues as a collective group in the past, and I will certainly do so again.

[George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con)]

One of the barriers to disabled people going into mainstream employment is a misconception among employers that it will somehow cause them difficulty, although the evidence shows that the employers who overcome their apprehension often find that the disabled person compensates for their disability by having much greater ability in other respects and therefore becomes a very valued member of their team. What more can be done to educate employers and persuade them to give disabled people a chance?

[Esther McVey]

My hon. Friend makes a terrific point. This is all about awareness, and it is important to understand that only 3% of people are born with disabilities but most of us will acquire one during our life, probably in our 40s and 50s, so we have to do what we can because we all have a vested interest. On my hon. Friend’s specific point, we will be holding a disability employment event in July, bringing together some of the biggest employers locally, nationally and internationally to ask them, “What are you doing, how do we spread best practice, and what can we do to support you?”

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

How many employees at Remploy in Abertillery, closed last year, have now got jobs? Unfortunately, as of December, just three out of 21 had jobs.

[Esther McVey]

The hon. Gentleman is quite right. There were 35, actually, in December who had a job, and because of that we completely reshaped the process, so now, he will be pleased to know, 400 people have a job, 328 are in training, and that is out of the 1,100 who came forward for support.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

May I thank the Minister for coming to the House and the Secretary of State for being present? May I also thank the Minister for the way this statement has been presented to the House, with the ministerial briefing that will be given to colleagues later and the fact that she took the time to write to Members who were affected by this? That is the way a statement should be handled, and she should be congratulated—and I am afraid I must say that the speech by the right hon. Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire), who spoke for the Opposition, was one of the worst I have ever heard.

[Esther McVey]

I do not know what to say to that, but I think I might even be blushing. Thank you.

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

The Government spent £248 million less than anticipated on the Work programme in 2012-13, owing to provider under- performance under payment by results. In view of the disappointing figures about the number of ex-Remploy workers who have managed to find re-employment, can this underspend be used to extend proven alternative programmes for disadvantaged jobseekers, like the Work Choice programme for disabled people and Access to Work, which helps them cope with some of the obstacles they might face in the workplace?

[Esther McVey]

I am not sure that the hon. Lady has been listening. These are not disappointing figures; they are better than those for most other redundancies—that is how fast these people are getting into employment. We have given personal support. People are going on Work Choice and getting the tailored support they need, and we are doing this for 18 months.

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend recall a fantastic Marks & Start event she attended in my constituency last year, where not only were more than 1,000 newly created jobs announced, but 200 of them were reserved for people with disabilities? Does she agree that that is an excellent model of how to help those with disabilities into sustainable employment?

[Esther McVey]

I do indeed remember being at Castle Donington with my hon. Friend at the Marks & Start site. This was a distribution centre looking for 1,000 employees, many of them disabled. He, like me, will be pleased to know that it is ahead of its target and is getting more disabled people into work there.

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

In terms of helping people with their future choices, will the Minister give the House a commitment that she will continue to track the fortunes of these people? Will she regularly update us on how many find themselves in full-time work and how many end up in part-time, temporary or unpaid work?

[Esther McVey]

I will indeed, and I keep abreast of the figures on a weekly basis. That figure of 400 who have got a job did not include people who were on fewer than 16 hours, so more than that number are in work on fewer hours.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend confirm that the specialist disability employment budget has been protected in the latest spending round? Consequently, it is all the more important that this money is used to help as many disabled people as possible back into work, as opposed to spending such a large sum on a small number of loss-making factories.

[Esther McVey]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. Yes, that budget was protected in the spending review and we have committed to £350 million to support disabled people into work. That money has got to be best spent on people—not on failing businesses—to support them into work.

[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

The loss of a further five Remploy factories in Scotland will be a devastating blow to disabled people in Scotland. Does the Minister not accept that, with the National Audit Office now conducting an inquiry into the shambles of a tendering process at the Springburn factory in my constituency, with growing evidence of asset-stripping and of confidential contracts signed on this Government’s watch between Remploy and private companies, this Government have sold the jobs of disabled people down the river?

[Esther McVey]

I ask the hon. Gentleman to be very cautious with the words he throws around the Chamber, many of which are inaccurate. He is correct to say that more information has gone to the NAO about the health care business and the commercial process that was undertaken, but the NAO will then just be considering whether it wants to take this further and look further into the programme. There has been no asset-stripping. There has been full governance and procedure in this commercial process, undertaken by an independent panel and by KPMG. Remploy is a legal entity in its own right and it is the legal steward of what goes forward. I warn the hon. Gentleman to be very careful with his accusations.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

If nothing had been done and Remploy had continued to suck up resources, what would the impact have been on other programmes to help disabled people back into mainstream work and on the inclusion agenda?

[Esther McVey]

We have to look at what disabled people want to do now, and they have said clearly that they want to be a part of mainstream society. They want to be in mainstream jobs and they are looking towards their goals and aspirations. We are helping them with that, be it as part of the alliance, as part of disabled people’s user-led organisations, as part of the role models programme or, as I said, as part of our new disability employment strategy.

[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

Does the hon. Lady have any guarantees that the companies that will be taking over the Remploy businesses will continue to focus on employing disabled people in the future?

[Esther McVey]

Let us examine how the bids were looked at and what the key criteria were for being taken forward and selected as the preferred bidder. The No. 1 criterion, goal and aim was the employment of disabled people. After that came viability, sustainability and value for the taxpayer, so employing disabled people was first and foremost at the heart of these commercial processes.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

Roughly what percentage of Remploy employees are disabled ex-service personnel?

[Esther McVey]

I will have to get back to my hon. Friend on that. I do not know who were ex-service personnel, because now all types of disabled people, from all different backgrounds, are working there. However, I know that our key aim is to help all disabled people into mainstream work.

Fulfilling Potential

Esther McVey Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd July 2013 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

Further to the publication of “Fulfilling Potential—Next Steps” on 17 September 2012, I am delighted to announce that later today I will publish “Fulfilling Potential—Making it Happen” which sets out the Government’s plans for delivering on our ambition, that disabled people should be enabled to achieve their aspirations and play a full role in society. It also shows how disabled people are seeing improvements in many key outcomes and reduced inequalities with non-disabled people.

“Fulfilling Potential—Making it Happen” emphasises the need for innovative cross-sector partnerships with disabled people and their organisations and promotes new ways of working to deliver improved outcomes. It underscores the Government’s commitment to the UN convention on the rights of disabled people to bring about the changes needed in communities that have a real and lasting effect on the day-to-day lives of disabled people.

It harnesses the inspirational power of the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic games—aiming to deliver further lasting change to attitudes and aspirations.

Our action plan captures activity and plans across the whole of Government and beyond. It sets out clearly in one place where progress has been made and also where we are encouraging and supporting the innovative work of the disability action alliance, and disabled people’s user-led organisations.

Delivery on the Government commitments in the action plan will be driven by the fulfilling potential strategy group of senior officials and overseen and reviewed by the Social Justice Cabinet Committee. We will also develop new arrangements for engaging disabled people and disability organisations in this process, and will publish an annual report on the outcomes and indicators set out in the document.

I will place a copy of the document in the Library.

Oral Answers to Questions

Esther McVey Excerpts

Monday 1st July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con)]

9. What progress he has made on supporting disabled people back into work.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

The Department offers a range of support to help disabled people get into work and stay in work, including the Work programme, Work Choice and Access to Work. Although there has been a welcome improvement in the disability employment rate over recent years, much still needs to be done. We will be doing that by launching a new, two-year disability employment campaign in July.

[Laura Sandys]

I thank the Minister for that reply. I also thank the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Fareham (Mr Hoban), who is coming to our jobs fair tomorrow morning where there will be information about jobs that local companies have designed around people with certain abilities and disabilities. What can we do to communicate to businesses the value of employing people with elements of disability and to ensure that they play a good part in our work force?

[Esther McVey]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on the work she is doing. Employers have the jobs and young people want those jobs, so getting them together is key. That is precisely what we will be doing when we launch our new employment strategy: getting together all the FTSE 100 companies, SMEs and young disabled entrepreneurs so that they can employ people and share best practice.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

The Minister has mentioned programmes that help disabled people get into work, but how many of those people remained in work 12 months after they got a job?

[Esther McVey]

Of the nearly 13,000 people who have started on Work Choice, a third—30%—have stayed in work. That situation has improved, but we want to do more, so we are starting the “disability confident” campaign, which will, we hope, help to achieve better outcomes.

[Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)]

Will the Minister confirm that disabled people can, through Access to Work and as part of the new enterprise allowance, get more equipment that will help them set up their own businesses?

[Esther McVey]

My hon. Friend is correct. We have extended the new enterprise allowance to help disabled entrepreneurs with support from Access to Work and she will be pleased to know that more than half a million disabled people have now set up their own businesses.

[Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)]

In spite of the bluff and bluster of the Minister of State for employment, the reality is that Work programme outcomes for new ESA clients show a pathetic performance outcome of only 5.3%, three times worse than doing nothing.

However, I want to turn to another employment support programme for disabled people, Access to Work, which the Under-Secretary has just mentioned. According to the DWP’s most recent statistics, the programme is now supporting 27,000 people compared with 37,290 in the year 2009-10 and 35,000 in 2010-11. Given that many disabled people want to get into work and are constantly told that they need to get into work, can the Minister advise when both the Work programme and Access to Work will start to make a real change to their lives?

[Esther McVey]

The right hon. Lady is quite right that Access to Work is key in helping people to remain in work, which is why we have extended it to young children who want to do internships and to new people who want to set up in business. It is working well and we are continuing to expand it, but we must also ensure that it works as best it possibly can. I am proud of what we are doing and we will build on that good platform.

[Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

Thanks to organ transplants, many lives have been saved, but in some cases despite their outward appearance the person is inwardly still disabled. What advice is given to jobcentres and other Government agencies to draw attention to the special needs of those who have had organ transplants?

[Esther McVey]

I am not aware of any specific advice that is given about people with organ transplants, but I do know that our disability employment advisers have in-depth knowledge and help people with all disabilities.

[Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)]

10. What assessment he has made of the operation of work capability assessments; and if he will make a statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con)]

13. What recent estimate he has made of the number of women in work.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

Women’s participation in the labour force has never been higher. There are 13.8 million women in work—the highest number on record, and 250,000 more than before the recession.

[Pauline Latham]

I thank the Minister for that answer. Does she agree that although much progress has been made on the issue, it is important that the Government continue to focus on and monitor the number of women in work?

[Esther McVey]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend, and we will do just that. I hope she agrees that the step that the Chancellor took—adding another £200 million to child care support—will be essential in helping mums and dads back into the workplace.

[Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)]

Many women in my constituency lost their job when the Government supported the closure of the Remploy factory. Nearly a year later, they have not found any employment. Why?

[Esther McVey]

I will tell the hon. Gentleman what has been happening: out of the 1,100 people who came forward from the Remploy factory and wanted support, to date, 400 have work and 328 are in training. When it comes to getting people into work, that is a higher rate than for any regular redundancy. We have provided £8 million in tailored support and have tracked those people—something that the previous Labour Government never did when they closed down 29 factories in 2008.

[Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)]

15. What progress his Department has made on improving feedback from social security tribunal decisions.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

From 10 June, judges in four social security and child support tribunals are providing the Department for Work and Pensions with more in-depth information on why they overturn employment and support allowance decisions. That builds on the drop-down list of primary reasons for overturning decisions that was introduced last July.

[Mr Jones]

I congratulate the Minister on the work that she has done with Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service to secure this new approach. Does she agree that the information from the tribunals will allow the Department greatly to improve its decision-making process?

[Esther McVey]

My hon. Friend is correct, and that information is key, because decisions are overturned for many reasons. Most of the time, it is because new information comes into play at the appeal. We need to find out why decisions are overturned, not just for the claimant but for the DWP and everybody involved.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

Is not the truth of the matter that in the vast majority of cases where a decision was overturned, it was because the wrong decision was made in the first place? Would it not make far more sense to make the right decision in the first place, so we did not have to waste time, money and energy on pursuing the matter all over again?

[Esther McVey]

I do not believe that the hon. Gentleman was listening to what I said. Actually, the majority of overturns are the result of new information being supplied on appeal. To ensure that we get this right first time, there will be mandatory reconsiderations, just like under universal credit and the personal independence payment. That will also be the case for employment and support allowance from the end of October. That will provide a proper administrative route, rather than a judicial one involving extra costs, extra pain and extra stress. We are getting this right, which is something the previous Government never did.

[Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con)]

16. What assessment he has made of the performance of the Work programme in helping young people into work.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) (Con)]

T4. I would like to thank the Under- Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey), for her productive meeting last week with representatives from the Royal National College for the Blind in Hereford. Does she share my view that the best way to achieve efficiencies in the residential training programme is to encourage disability employment advisers to make more referrals to that very successful scheme?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

I believe that would be a good way forward. After the meeting, we asked them to put forward all their ideas on how they could really reach out to more disabled people and help more into work.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

T5. Last year the parents of 47,009 children living abroad received child benefit totalling £55 million. What steps is the Secretary of State taking to fulfil the promise he made on 30 May to fight every step of the way to resolve that issue?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con)]

T10. Can the Minister share with the House what steps she has taken to deliver a cross-government disability strategy?

[Esther McVey]

My hon. Friend asks a timely question, because tomorrow we will publish a detailed, cross-departmental action plan on how to help disabled people in many different respects. That plan has been developed with disabled people, and it ranges from employment to education to transport to social participation.

[Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab)]

In 2011 Lord Freud told peers that in theory his housing benefit policy would cause rents to fall, that it is a matter of market forces, and that it was irresponsible to suggest that thousands of people would be made homeless as a result. In fact, rents have soared, most new claims for housing benefit are from working families, and in London there has been a 91% increase in homelessness applications from people losing their private sector tenancies. How is that theory going?

--- Later in debate ---

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

Paul Stewart was paralysed from the waist down and told that he would never walk again after a snowboarding accident. Through sheer willpower and determination he has defied the odds and next month he will undertake his IronSpine Challenge of a 2.4 mile swim, a 112 mile cycle, a 26.2 mile walk and a cliff-face climb to raise money for spinal research. Does the Minister agree that Paul is a tremendous inspiration to others who suffer such life-changing disabilities?

[Esther McVey]

I do indeed agree with my hon. Friend. When I first heard about Paul’s story, I had to read it twice because I could not believe what he intended to do. He was paralysed from the waist down; now he is paralysed from the knees down and has learned to walk with aids and adaptations. The Prime Minister has supported him and I will be there at the start of this excellent challenge.

[Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)]

Have Ministers had any discussions with the Housing Minister about the benefits of switching funding from escalating housing benefit expenditure to new, affordable house building?

Oral Answers to Questions

Esther McVey Excerpts

Monday 20th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab)]

11. What steps he is taking to publicise the potential effects of planned regulation changes on claimants currently in receipt of (a) the disability living allowance higher rate and (b) Motability cars.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

We wrote to every DLA claimant earlier this year, as well as holding stakeholder engagement events and MPs’ events. Online, there is a personal independence payment checker and a PIP toolkit. As the hon. Lady asks specifically about the highest rates of both components, I am sure that she will pleased to know that we have increased those rates under PIP from 16% to 23%, which is an increase of seven percentage points.

[Rosie Cooper]

It came as a great shock to my constituents that the new regulations will see the removal of the Motability lease payments after 28 days of a person’s being in hospital. Will the Minister explain why she is prepared to leave disabled people worried about going into hospital and potentially losing their Motability car, losing their deposit and having to restart the whole process when they come out? They will be worried about what it will mean for them to reapply for a new car with new adaptations that requires a new deposit. Additional administration will fall on the Department for Work and Pensions, so who will bear the cost incurred when the exclusively and specifically adapted Motability cars have to be returned—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I think that the hon. Lady’s essay —perhaps even her thesis—has been completed.

[Esther McVey]

Obviously, I do not know the specific details of the case, but when somebody is in hospital for a long time they will not need the Motability car. However, every case is taken on its specifics and everything is dealt with in the most sensitive way. That has always been the case with Motability cars.

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

A constituent with a severely disabled daughter who is dependent on disability living allowance and a Motability car came to see me. Will my hon. Friend assure me that my constituent will be entitled to an appeal before those things are arbitrarily removed?

[Esther McVey]

At the moment, we are considering working age people and that is where the changes are happening, so we would not be specifically considering the case my hon. Friend mentions. However, if she is talking about what happens at the end of a fixed-term period for which the child has entitlement, the assessment would be the same as it always was for DLA. The focus of the reforms is to ensure that the billions of pounds we are spending every year—a figure that is going up over this Parliament—will be focused on those who most need it.

[Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)]

The Minister really needs to look at the specifics of this. Her regulations have changed: a person in hospital will now lose their higher mobility rate after four weeks, instead of 13 weeks. Their Motability car will have to go back, even though they may have spent thousands of pounds on adaptations to it. The Minister really has to look at how her regulations have changed.

[Esther McVey]

Obviously, I do indeed look at those regulations, but, as I said, every case is looked at on a case-by-case basis, to see what is required in that specific instance.

[Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)]

The Minister and the Secretary of State have recently been found out using figures that show a dramatic increase in the number of people receiving disability living allowance. To quote the Secretary of State, they wanted

“to get in early, get ahead of it”—

that is, the PIP. However, Department for Work and Pensions statistics show that there was a significant decrease in the number of working-age people—that is, those affected by the changes—getting the benefit, so much so that The Economist said:

“Over the past few months…questionable numbers have floated out of Iain Duncan Smith’s office into the public debate like raw sewage.”

Those are the words of The Economist, not mine. Will the Minister take this opportunity to correct the figures on the record, and to resolve to use accurate figures only? As The Economist puts it,

“they shouldn’t manipulate…and distort”

figures

“to tell stories that aren’t actually true.”

[Esther McVey]

I will put on record that we do use correct figures. We use the right figures, and we make sure that people know exactly what is happening, because that is only right. We are dealing with the most vulnerable people in society, and it is only right that they get the correct information. We will continue doing that.

[Mr Stephen Hepburn (Jarrow) (Lab)]

12. What assessment he has made of the effect of sanctions on jobseeker’s allowance claimants.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

As I am sure the hon. Lady knows, there are different types of benefit for disabled people, including disability living allowance, which is paid irrespective of whether the claimant is in work or not, as well as income replacement benefits such as employment and support allowance, so a person could receive ESA and DLA or wages and DLA. Around a third of households in receipt of disability living allowance or attendance allowance also receive support for their housing costs.

[Fiona Mactaggart]

I have been driven to ask this as an oral question by my being refused a reply to a number of written questions on the grounds that it would cost too much money. I have been able to discover that there are 678,000 housing benefit claimants who are also receiving ESA, so there are at least two thirds of a million disabled people in receipt of housing benefit. In Slough landlords—

[Fiona Mactaggart]

What is the Minister going to do to protect disabled people in private housing when landlords refuse to accept people on housing benefit, which is common in my constituency?

[Esther McVey]

We have supported people with discretionary housing payments amounting to £360 million. The authorities are working with credible landlords. We are supporting those people. Perhaps the hon. Lady could not get an answer to her question because she was looking for something that was not there.

[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

As of today, of the 1,100 Remploy staff who have come forward for help, 351 are in work and about the same number are in training. We are working closely with former Remploy staff to ensure that we get this as good as possible. I will also say that when the previous Government closed 29 factories in 2008, absolutely no support or monitoring was put in place, something that this Government have done and got right.

[Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab)]

T8. The Secretary of State and his ministerial colleagues have taken a number of questions on Atos and the work capability assessment, and I think that many people listening to these proceedings would consider their answers relaxed to the point of complacency. Does he recognise that people who have intermittent, real problems with working—people with brain damage and with mental health problems—are not being served properly by the work capability assessment? Does he recognise that this is a problem, or not? If he does, what, in practice, is he going to do about it?

--- Later in debate ---

[Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)]

A constituent of mine who lives in Haddington was recently asked to attend a tribunal for her disability living allowance in Glasgow, which, because she had to use public transport, would have meant a round trip of six hours. That is not only unacceptable for her but places a strain on welfare rights in my constituency. Does the Minister think that that is acceptable?

[Esther McVey]

No, I do not think that a round trip of that long is acceptable. I will look into that case.

[Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)]

The transition to the personal independence payment is a good thing in theory, but some people are telling me that they are concerned that the threshold for qualification is unacceptably high and they feel unsupported in trying to work out how to make a difficult choice among the variety of suppliers available.

[Esther McVey]

I was not exactly sure where the right hon. Gentleman was going with that question. The PIP was introduced to support the most vulnerable and to make it as easy as possible to do so, and to ensure that people who could not fill in a self-assessment form could see somebody on a one-to-one basis. This is the biggest ever change in welfare. I thank all the people who have helped with it in Jobcentre Pluses, and the stakeholders. Over 1,000 disabled people got involved to make sure that the system was right, and I thank them for making it a good transition to a new benefit.

[Mr Speaker]

The Minister can always have a cup of tea with her right hon. Friend if any further clarification is required.

Under-Occupancy Penalty (Wigan)

Esther McVey Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd April 2013 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

It is a pleasure to be serving under your chairmanship today, Mr Hollobone. I congratulate the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) on securing the debate on behalf of her constituents.

I am under no illusion about the strength of feeling of many about the removal of the spare room subsidy, but we are not introducing the change lightly. A number of important principles lie behind the reform, and it is only right to describe the main ones, because they provide the context for the changes, which of course have a financial imperative and other compelling reasons. Furthermore, no one has offered a serious alternative to achieve the savings of £500 million a year, especially since housing benefit doubled in cash terms to £23 billion under the previous Government, so we have had to look at the financial implications.

[Yvonne Fovargue]

In the Budget, the Chancellor cut the beer duty and cancelled a planned future rise at the cost of £200 million, which equates to 40% of the anticipated savings from the bedroom tax. Is the Government priority beer or bedrooms?

[Esther McVey]

That example is taken completely out of context; one measure is about a business and ensuring that it remains, as well as about how people spend their money, but the measure we are discussing is about one set of finances that doubled in cash terms under the hon. Lady’s Government to £23 billion and about what we should do about it. We cannot pick and mix and move the finances around; we have to get housing benefit under control, and I will say how we are doing that, although I do not underestimate in any way the complexity and difficulty of doing so. She said clearly that this is about people, and I fully understand that it is about people, which is why we have to get things right, not only for now but for future generations—their children and their children’s children—so it is always about people and getting the system right. Another reason for the reform is that it will result in the effective use of housing stock over time, because we also have to look at the people in overcrowded accommodation, and in Wigan alone more than 3,500 families are on the housing waiting list.

[Yvonne Fovargue]

rose—

[Esther McVey]

I will proceed a little further, so that I can answer the hon. Lady’s questions.

We need to improve use of the housing stock, and doing nothing is not an option, because we have 1 million spare rooms but 250,000 people living in overcrowded accommodation. The situation will not be easy to change overnight, but we have to start on the process of getting things right. It is about fairness. The hon. Lady said that I would talk about fairness, and of course it is about fairness, but from different angles and not only for those renting from private landlords or those in the social rented sector. It is about fairness between all those different people who are living under different systems. In Wigan, 27,000 people receive housing benefit, 18,500 of them in the social rented sector and 8,500 in the private rented sector, so 31% of people are already under the rules that we are introducing. May I clarify with the hon. Lady that today she is asking not only to oppose the measures that are progressing but to repeal the previous Government’s measures, brought in gradually from 2008? People are already living under the same rules and criteria. Is that what she would like to see—the reversal of her own Government’s 2008 rules?

[Yvonne Fovargue]

The Minister fundamentally misunderstands local housing allowance, which, as stated in the answer to my parliamentary question, is based on the characteristics of the family and not of the property. In Wigan, therefore, a couple can quite easily rent a two-bedroom private property—with a spare bedroom—for £80.77 a week. Fairness does not come into it.

[Esther McVey]

I can correct the hon. Lady. The size criteria applied to the social rented sector are exactly the same. If a private landlord is charging below the median market 30th percentile, a couple can do that. Equally, should local housing associations want to regroup or make a change from a three-bedroom to a two-bedroom property, they are entitled to do so. People can do such things, and that is what is happening.

I did not, however, get an answer to my question: would a Labour Government reverse what they introduced in 2008? We are drawing a parity between two unfair systems—one for private, one for social—within the housing benefit market. I see the hon. Lady shaking her head, so Labour would not reverse that and we seem to be having a fake argument today; the Opposition are opposing for the sake of opposing, with hypothetical arguments about something that they clearly introduced without the catastrophes and calamities that she is talking about. The number of people involved is not small, but 31% of those in rented accommodation in Wigan.

Wigan and Leigh housing trust manages Wigan’s council homes, provides tenants with comprehensive advice, and has dedicated financial support teams that focus on “claim, manage, pay”: managing and maximising income, and paying rent. In conjunction with Citizens Advice, Wigan council has set up Wigan Housing Solutions, a not-for-profit organisation that acts as a social letting agency and as a bridge between the private and rented sectors, helping to relieve pressure on the waiting list.

We welcome all such initiatives for managing welfare reform. It is only too easy to speculate about the potential impact of the change, and to come up with alarmist examples of people suffering and losing their homes. We have not seen that yet, but we are alert to such situations. We want people to work in partnership, which is why we have trebled the discretionary payment fund. We are offering different opportunities and outlets of what can be done. There is no one-fits-all solution. We understand that people live in different houses with different set-ups, and that we must think about how the change will work for them. That is why we welcome partnership initiatives.

I have talked about how changes were implemented in 2008. Some of the things that the hon. Lady is talking about and that she fears will happen in 2013 did not happen. Before implementation of the current changes, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made announcements concerning foster carers and parents of armed forces personnel when they are away from home on operational duty, and on what the discretionary fund could be used for. We have talked about disabled children who cannot share a room with a sibling and who are exempt, as are pensioners. Various people will be exempt and there will be significant discretionary payments, which will be constantly monitored to see whether the amount of money is right and whether the right people are being supported.

We have seen best practice with people pooling resources and coming together because at the end of the day—I am convinced that there will be agreement on this—we want the best result for people in social housing. We want the best result for those on waiting lists for social housing. We want the best result for those who may be overcrowded. We want that not just for 2013. We looked at what has happened over the last 10 years when payment costs doubled, and we want what is right now and what will be right in the future. It invariably takes a Conservative Government—in this case a coalition Government—to get the accounting right and to build and convert the right number of properties. A Conservative party always has to pick up the pieces of a failed Labour Government.

[Yvonne Fovargue]

The Minister has twice referred to the number of people on the waiting list for properties. In Wigan, 80% of those in private rented accommodation and on the waiting list are waiting for one and two-bedroom properties, but there is an over-supply of three-bedroom properties. She also talked about people moving to the private rented sector, where rents are higher. For every person who is displaced there will be a cost, and the policy is likely to lose money for Wigan because of the over-supply of three-bedroom properties and the under-supply of one and two-bedroom properties. Families are not getting larger; they are getting smaller. One and two-bedroom properties are in most demand.

[Esther McVey]

The hon. Lady is right to talk about housing stock and how so many councils got their housing stock wrong for so many years. Why was it not reallocated? Why were conversions not carried out? Why did they not use the money? If they realised that so many people were in three-bedroom properties when they should have been in two-bedroom properties, why did they not do something about that work? They are beginning to do it now, which is why there are so many spare rooms. That work should have been done, but it was not. No attention was paid to needs, what should have been built, and changing family demographics. It is right that housing associations could have reallocated housing by changing three-bedroom houses to two-bedroom houses. All those offers were on the table and are still on the table. We are trying to work through that, and the hon. Lady was right to mention it. We have provided a list of solutions to solve those problems.

I return to the number of people on Wigan’s housing list, which is 3,591families. Some people are overcrowded and still on the waiting list, and even if they are not overcrowded they may still be on a waiting list. That problem also needs to be solved. There also needs to be re-allocation of rooms. I understand the business pretty well because it is my family business and I know about conversion of stock and having the right people in houses. I understand what the Government are doing.

I resent people, even chief executives, talking about a wicked initiative. It is not wicked. It is solving a tremendous problem. We have been given a terrible problem and we take no pleasure in having to solve it, but we must do that. We must look at costs, people, the use of stock and how we support those people. Instead of people lobbying and scaremongering, I would prefer that we work together to solve the problem. Trading words is an ineffectual use of time and energy, but I believe that we can solve the problem, which is why we are monitoring it to ensure that the trebling of the discretionary payment goes to the right people.

[Yvonne Fovargue]

The chief executive of Wigan and Leigh housing trust said that the effects on people in Wigan are wicked, and that in the north of England and Wigan the effect of the policy on the people he sees daily—tenants—on the housing stock he manages and on his business planning for the future is completely the opposite of what the Government intend. No one is saying that the Government’s intentions are wicked, but their policy is not working and the effect on people in my borough and those I represent is absolutely wicked.

[Esther McVey]

We must get it right, and we are getting it right. I do not believe the hon. Lady’s description to be the case. We are working together to ensure that we support people now and in future. We never get a reply from Labour on spending commitments, but will the party—it introduced its policy in 2008—in addition to opposing what we are doing today, put on the record the fact that they will oppose, revoke or withdraw everything they put in place in 2008? There is silence from Labour Members because they will not go backwards on that commitment.

In our final few moments, I will say what we are doing. Our imperative is to sort out our housing stock, to put people who need houses into the bedrooms that exist. For the first time ever, we are ensuring that Britain is building. Under the previous Labour Government, where most of the problem comes from, there was a near collapse in the building of social housing, which fell to an all-time record low. In every which way of the argument, there was a pinch effect from lack of building, wrong allocation of resources, massive overspending, and not caring about those on waiting lists and those in overcrowded housing. We must deal with that in its entirety, but there are differences in different regions. I understand that, and the Government understand that, and that is why we will constantly monitor what we are doing. There has been a trebling of the discretionary fund, and Wigan is entitled to its fair share of that. We need to work in partnership with best practices in Wigan for pooling resources and helping everyone—not one section, but everyone who needs social housing.

Atos Healthcare

Esther McVey Excerpts

Thursday 21st March 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

The first point to make is that the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Fareham (Mr Hoban), who has responsibility for employment, apologises wholeheartedly for not being here today. As the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) said at the start of the debate, the Minister had been on his way back from Glasgow, where he had been meeting Work programme providers in Scotland, when his plane had to turn back because of engine problems. That is why he could not be here, and he apologises for that. He very much wanted to answer this debate, and I know that the Department, at his request, asked whether it could be rescheduled so that he could answer it himself. He was told that that was not possible. The only person who could withdraw today’s debate was the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton, but he did not do so. I understand that had he done so, he would not necessarily have had it rescheduled, so I am here to speak on behalf of my ministerial colleague.

The Minister of State engages widely and continuously with a range of people on the work capability assessment. In the past few months alone, he has met people from a range of charities, including the National Autistic Society, Mencap, Mind, the Mental Health Foundation, the Scottish Association for Mental Health, Citizens Advice, Scope and many others. As I said, he was in Scotland earlier today meeting people from the Work programme. He has also met people from a range of medical organisations, including the Royal College of Psychiatrists and the British Medical Association, and the president of the Royal College of Radiologists.

All Ministers regularly correspond with fellow MPs about the work capability assessment and we have recently written to all MPs on this matter. I can confirm that the Minister of State has had extensive correspondence with the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex), one of the attendees at the proposed meeting. The Minister of State has responded to almost 100 parliamentary questions from the hon. Gentleman, many on the work capability assessment or Atos, over the past six months alone. We are grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s interest and that of others, and we are keen to maintain a constructive dialogue about how we might further improve the WCA. Many meetings with stakeholder organisations or individuals can be challenging; the WCA elicits strong views and is not always fully understood. On occasion mistakes have been made, but we are always open to constructive stakeholder engagement. Since taking on his role, the Minister of State has engaged with organisations that have been critical of the Department and has done so even if they have intervened in judicial reviews against the Department—he has still had those meetings.

[Mr Meacher]

I have listened to all that the Minister says and I accept it, but the key point in this debate is: why is the Minister of State not prepared to see Spartacus? Spartacus is, by any standards, a leading organisation of sick and disabled people which is supported by thousands. Why is he prepared to see all the other organisations but not Spartacus?

[Esther McVey]

I will address that point later in this debate. What is key, and what the Minister of State felt was key, is a constructive dialogue. He has consistently said several things about the WCA since taking up his role. It has to be made clear—one would not necessarily take this from today’s debate—that he inherited the WCA from the previous Labour Government. We would not necessarily know that from listening to this debate. We have been committed to improving it. We want changes to happen, wherever possible, in collaboration with the people who know most about it and who are affected by it. The Minister of State made those points in the debate on 17 January, but it is worth reiterating them today. They are the core principles that drive much of the Department’s work on the WCA and will remain so. Since taking office we have made the WCA more sensitive and less mechanistic, successfully implementing a number of challenging reforms to it.

The independent reviews of the WCA are obviously one of our key drivers for positive change. Professor Harrington has had extensive interaction with a wide variety of stakeholders, including individuals, lobby organisations, MPs across all parties, and the staff in the Department for Work and Pensions and Atos who are affected by the changes resulting from his work. Professor Harrington listened to all of the concerns raised and made recommendations based on the evidence provided. His interpretation was that mental health conditions are difficult to assess and he recommended the positioning of mental function champions within Atos. We have listened and a network of champions is now in place to provide advice and support to other health care professionals. He also recommended that we put decision makers back at the heart of the system and ensure they are empowered to make independent and considered decisions, which we have done.

Professor Harrington spotted a gap in our relationships with clinical experts—

[John McDonnell]

rose—

[Esther McVey]

I will give way once I have finished this point, so that I can get the point across.

Professor Harrington spotted a gap in our relationships with clinical experts and concluded we were not consulting them enough on the guidance and training materials used by Atos health care professionals. We have responded by putting a process in place to engage clinical expertise. That is still in its early days but we are determined to make it work. I could go on, but I will give way to the hon. Gentleman.

[John McDonnell]

Will the Minister not just answer the question? Why not this group? What is wrong with this group? Why does the Minister of State discriminate specifically against this group?

--- Later in debate ---

[Esther McVey]

I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman is keen to get his point on the record and, as I said, I was coming to that. The key reason I was mentioning constructive dialogue was that I was setting the question in the context of all the people the Minister of State has met, regularly meets and will continue to meet. We are determined to carry on that engagement.

As the point has been raised and as I believe that both the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton and the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) voted for the work capability assessment and were in the party whose Government created the work capability assessment, let me say that it is this Government who are picking up the pieces, holding reviews and making it a far more workable benefit. That point has not been raised at all today.

The right hon. Gentleman talked about the letter and the correspondence. The letter was replied to within the 20 working days set out by Cabinet Office protocol. That is what I have been told today. It is clear that constructive—

[Mr Meacher]

I realise that the Under-Secretary has been brought in at the last minute, but that is not correct. My letter was dated 31 January and the letter from the Minister of State is dated 5 March, but I am not bothered about the technicalities of keeping to civil service rules about replies to letters. I want to know why Spartacus has been excluded when all the other organisations she has mentioned are being included. She keeps talking about constructive engagement, so why not engage with probably the most effective organisation of all?

[Esther McVey]

I will get to that. I have just had it confirmed that the letter was received on 5 February and the reply was set out on the date I mentioned.

[John McDonnell]

Just answer the question, for goodness’ sake.

[Esther McVey]

Actually, I was mentioning the constructive dialogue and what was important in the context of why my hon. Friend the Minister of State felt unable to meet that group. I understand that his diary was under immense pressure, but he had rescheduled things and was going to have a meeting, but he did not necessarily feel that the dialogue would be constructive because of the words used by Spartacus in this regard:

“The WCA is a statement of political desperation. The process is reminiscent of the medical tribunals that returned shell shocked and badly wounded soldiers to duty in the first world war or the ‘KV-machine’, the medical commission the Nazis used in the second world war to play down wounds so that soldiers could be reclassified ‘fit for the Eastern front’.”

Because of that wording, my hon. Friend felt that there would not be a constructive dialogue. What he was seeking from the many other people whom he had met was not just criticism—one has to take criticism on the chin—but a constructive dialogue to establish what those groups thought could be done better and how we could adjust the assessment. None of that had ever been forthcoming, for which reason—

[Mr Meacher]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Esther McVey]

Please allow me to finish the sentence—for which reason he had not thus far had the meeting. However, if there were to be constructive dialogue and positive outcomes from the meeting, I am sure my hon. Friend would meet the group, but given the tone of the remarks that I quoted, he did not think that that would be the best way forward.

[Mr Meacher]

We have finally got to the explanation. I could have been given this a lot earlier. The Spartacus report is about 100 pages long—perhaps slightly under 100 pages. The quote that the hon. Lady has given was one sentence in it. I agree that it is strong language; it is the language of exasperation, hurt and anger, but the idea that the Minister should refuse to see a delegation simply because of the use of such language is absurd. Politicians are a bit tougher than that. If he disagrees with it, he can speak his own mind to members of the delegation directly. They have engaged constructively and they expect the Minister to respond.

[Esther McVey]

I hoped the right hon. Gentleman would reject and condemn such language so that the group can start on a clearer, more open way forward and have a discussion in a positive light with, as I said, constructive dialogue. That would be a positive place to start.

Those comments are at odds with what Professor Harrington himself has stated. He has said that, although there is more to do, the work capability assessment is the right concept and the Department can be proud of what it has achieved so far in improving the assessment. Our response to the latest independent review made it clear that we agree with his views and that we are committed to continue to improve the assessment.

[John McDonnell]

Will the Minister give way?

[Esther McVey]

All of us can see that that is a positive statement on which to move forward.

[John McDonnell]

Will the Minister give way on that point?

[Esther McVey]

I will not give way on that point. We have implemented those recommendations. [Interruption.] We took on a very poorly designed assessment from the Labour Government and we have done significant work to get it right.

Furthermore, although the Spartacus report on the work capability assessment—the so-called people’s review—reflects what are clearly strongly held views, it is a collection of anecdotal accounts. It fails to recognise the improvements made to the WCA since 2010—[Interruption.]

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. Mr McDonnell, I know you are frustrated but you must not behave in this manner. Please allow the Minister to finish her remarks.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

I think the House accepts your apology and hopes that the Minister will be allowed to finish her remarks in silence.

[Esther McVey]

I think that we all suffer frustration; I do because I inherited something that was clearly unworkable and that we have had to spend more than two years trying to get right. We will continue trying to get it right. That is what we are doing and I ask the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington to concentrate on that.

Finally, we have also invited the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton to have a constructive talk with Atos to look at what we could do. I believe that he declined an invitation to discuss the changes that would improve the position. He dismissed the Atos invitation as something that would not achieve anything and he condemned the work capability assessment and Atos. I believe that we all have something to learn from this and that we must all work together constructively.

[Mr Meacher]

I refused that offer because the descriptors, the regulations and the guidance had been passed down to Atos Healthcare, as the agents of the Government, from the Department for Work and Pensions. It is the Department that is responsible, not Atos Healthcare.

[Esther McVey]

Then I would say that there is much for us all to learn, whether that means the right hon. Gentleman agreeing to meet Atos or the Department agreeing to meet Spartacus, but I conclude that the approach must be constructive, because I believe, as we all do, that we want to get this right for the most vulnerable people in society.

Question put and agreed to.

Jobseekers (Back to Work Schemes) Bill

Esther McVey Excerpts

Tuesday 19th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

I want to thank all Members who have taken part in the debate today, and I will answer in turn all the points that have been raised. I also want to thank the Opposition for taking a measured approach in supporting and expediting this important Bill, which will ensure that we are able to give jobseekers the best possible chance to find employment, as well as holding them to account when they refuse to hold up their side of the bargain. By ensuring that the Government do not have to repay previous benefit sanctions to claimants who have failed to participate in employment programmes, and that we can properly impose sanctions for such failures, the Bill will protect the public purse as well as the fundamental principle that jobseekers have responsibilities as well as rights.

I want to clarify the Court of Appeal judgment, on which many points have been made, not all of them correct. Our main point is that the Court supports the principle and policy of our employment schemes. The hon. Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) asked whether they constituted slavery under article 4 of the European convention on human rights. We are pleased to say that the Court of Appeal agreed that there was no breach of the convention.

[Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Esther McVey]

I will make some progress, as I have many questions to get through.

I want to offer clarification to the hon. Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris). The Court of Appeal ruled against the Government on a technical point and we are seeking permission to appeal to the Supreme Court on that point. Contrary to what the Opposition have suggested, a great deal of thought went into drafting regulations that would be flexible enough to encompass a wide range of programmes to support jobseekers. That is key; this is about flexibility for the individual and for the businesses that are taking people on. We want to get more people into jobs than ever before, and that is what we are doing.

[Mr Donohoe]

The problem in my constituency is that there are no jobs. People can have all the training they want, but they cannot get a job. That is the problem, and it is down to this Government.

[Esther McVey]

Obviously, the hon. Gentleman will be pleased to hear that the past 11 consecutive months have seen a rise in the number of people in jobs. Of course education, training and work experience are key, and we are doing all we can to help his constituents.

I want to talk about the scrutiny that the regulations went through. They went through the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, the secondary legislation scrutiny Committee, and there have been various opportunities for Members to raise objections. That did not happen, however, and the regulations went through. We are seeking permission to appeal against the judgment by the Court of Appeal. This is about communications with claimants, and our view is that it was clear that the claimant received information not only through communication via letter but through meeting and speaking to their jobcentre adviser.

[Mr George Howarth]

Will the Minister give way?

[Esther McVey]

I want to progress a little further.

There is one voice that we have not heard here today. The right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) talked about a failing system, but I want to hear the voice of the people who have been on the mandatory scheme. What have they said about it? It is interesting to note that 75% of them said that they believed they were more attractive to potential employers, and that their personal confidence had been increased by attending the programmes. Some 76% said that their ability to work as part of a team had improved; 89% spoke of the benefits of getting into a working routine; and 81% said that they enjoyed their work placement. We should all be listening to those voices, rather than making political points that are not what those people said.

How about the businesses that take people on? What do they say? Many said that the aim was to help people to get a job. That is key. What has come out goes to the nub of the argument. For some, it might have been their first experience of a work environment. We know that is true, because 1.9 million children live in homes where nobody works, so it is vital that they have the scheme.

[Mr Howarth]

Could the Minister explain how amendment 1 to clause 1, in the name of her right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, takes us any further than where we are today?

[Esther McVey]

It is to clarify the right to appeal—I did not actually hear the full question.

[Mr Howarth]

Can the Minister explain how amendment 1 to clause 1, which is in the name of her right hon. Friend, takes us any further than where we are today?

[Esther McVey]

The right to appeal remains. That is the answer.

Companies said that the mandatory scheme helped not just them but the local community. The hon. Member for Wansbeck said we did not need a Bill. Actually the Bill is required. Slave labour was mentioned, but that is not an issue. Targets were mentioned. There are no targets whatsoever.

We know that jobseekers should have responsibility to take all reasonable steps to increase their chances of finding work. We therefore cannot be in the position where we have to repay benefit sanctions to jobseekers who fail to take all reasonable steps. For that reason, I commend the Bill to the House.

Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time.