Under-Occupancy Penalty (Wigan)

Esther McVey Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd April 2013 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

It is a pleasure to be serving under your chairmanship today, Mr Hollobone. I congratulate the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) on securing the debate on behalf of her constituents.

I am under no illusion about the strength of feeling of many about the removal of the spare room subsidy, but we are not introducing the change lightly. A number of important principles lie behind the reform, and it is only right to describe the main ones, because they provide the context for the changes, which of course have a financial imperative and other compelling reasons. Furthermore, no one has offered a serious alternative to achieve the savings of £500 million a year, especially since housing benefit doubled in cash terms to £23 billion under the previous Government, so we have had to look at the financial implications.

[Yvonne Fovargue]

In the Budget, the Chancellor cut the beer duty and cancelled a planned future rise at the cost of £200 million, which equates to 40% of the anticipated savings from the bedroom tax. Is the Government priority beer or bedrooms?

[Esther McVey]

That example is taken completely out of context; one measure is about a business and ensuring that it remains, as well as about how people spend their money, but the measure we are discussing is about one set of finances that doubled in cash terms under the hon. Lady’s Government to £23 billion and about what we should do about it. We cannot pick and mix and move the finances around; we have to get housing benefit under control, and I will say how we are doing that, although I do not underestimate in any way the complexity and difficulty of doing so. She said clearly that this is about people, and I fully understand that it is about people, which is why we have to get things right, not only for now but for future generations—their children and their children’s children—so it is always about people and getting the system right. Another reason for the reform is that it will result in the effective use of housing stock over time, because we also have to look at the people in overcrowded accommodation, and in Wigan alone more than 3,500 families are on the housing waiting list.

[Yvonne Fovargue]

rose—

[Esther McVey]

I will proceed a little further, so that I can answer the hon. Lady’s questions.

We need to improve use of the housing stock, and doing nothing is not an option, because we have 1 million spare rooms but 250,000 people living in overcrowded accommodation. The situation will not be easy to change overnight, but we have to start on the process of getting things right. It is about fairness. The hon. Lady said that I would talk about fairness, and of course it is about fairness, but from different angles and not only for those renting from private landlords or those in the social rented sector. It is about fairness between all those different people who are living under different systems. In Wigan, 27,000 people receive housing benefit, 18,500 of them in the social rented sector and 8,500 in the private rented sector, so 31% of people are already under the rules that we are introducing. May I clarify with the hon. Lady that today she is asking not only to oppose the measures that are progressing but to repeal the previous Government’s measures, brought in gradually from 2008? People are already living under the same rules and criteria. Is that what she would like to see—the reversal of her own Government’s 2008 rules?

[Yvonne Fovargue]

The Minister fundamentally misunderstands local housing allowance, which, as stated in the answer to my parliamentary question, is based on the characteristics of the family and not of the property. In Wigan, therefore, a couple can quite easily rent a two-bedroom private property—with a spare bedroom—for £80.77 a week. Fairness does not come into it.

[Esther McVey]

I can correct the hon. Lady. The size criteria applied to the social rented sector are exactly the same. If a private landlord is charging below the median market 30th percentile, a couple can do that. Equally, should local housing associations want to regroup or make a change from a three-bedroom to a two-bedroom property, they are entitled to do so. People can do such things, and that is what is happening.

I did not, however, get an answer to my question: would a Labour Government reverse what they introduced in 2008? We are drawing a parity between two unfair systems—one for private, one for social—within the housing benefit market. I see the hon. Lady shaking her head, so Labour would not reverse that and we seem to be having a fake argument today; the Opposition are opposing for the sake of opposing, with hypothetical arguments about something that they clearly introduced without the catastrophes and calamities that she is talking about. The number of people involved is not small, but 31% of those in rented accommodation in Wigan.

Wigan and Leigh housing trust manages Wigan’s council homes, provides tenants with comprehensive advice, and has dedicated financial support teams that focus on “claim, manage, pay”: managing and maximising income, and paying rent. In conjunction with Citizens Advice, Wigan council has set up Wigan Housing Solutions, a not-for-profit organisation that acts as a social letting agency and as a bridge between the private and rented sectors, helping to relieve pressure on the waiting list.

We welcome all such initiatives for managing welfare reform. It is only too easy to speculate about the potential impact of the change, and to come up with alarmist examples of people suffering and losing their homes. We have not seen that yet, but we are alert to such situations. We want people to work in partnership, which is why we have trebled the discretionary payment fund. We are offering different opportunities and outlets of what can be done. There is no one-fits-all solution. We understand that people live in different houses with different set-ups, and that we must think about how the change will work for them. That is why we welcome partnership initiatives.

I have talked about how changes were implemented in 2008. Some of the things that the hon. Lady is talking about and that she fears will happen in 2013 did not happen. Before implementation of the current changes, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made announcements concerning foster carers and parents of armed forces personnel when they are away from home on operational duty, and on what the discretionary fund could be used for. We have talked about disabled children who cannot share a room with a sibling and who are exempt, as are pensioners. Various people will be exempt and there will be significant discretionary payments, which will be constantly monitored to see whether the amount of money is right and whether the right people are being supported.

We have seen best practice with people pooling resources and coming together because at the end of the day—I am convinced that there will be agreement on this—we want the best result for people in social housing. We want the best result for those on waiting lists for social housing. We want the best result for those who may be overcrowded. We want that not just for 2013. We looked at what has happened over the last 10 years when payment costs doubled, and we want what is right now and what will be right in the future. It invariably takes a Conservative Government—in this case a coalition Government—to get the accounting right and to build and convert the right number of properties. A Conservative party always has to pick up the pieces of a failed Labour Government.

[Yvonne Fovargue]

The Minister has twice referred to the number of people on the waiting list for properties. In Wigan, 80% of those in private rented accommodation and on the waiting list are waiting for one and two-bedroom properties, but there is an over-supply of three-bedroom properties. She also talked about people moving to the private rented sector, where rents are higher. For every person who is displaced there will be a cost, and the policy is likely to lose money for Wigan because of the over-supply of three-bedroom properties and the under-supply of one and two-bedroom properties. Families are not getting larger; they are getting smaller. One and two-bedroom properties are in most demand.

[Esther McVey]

The hon. Lady is right to talk about housing stock and how so many councils got their housing stock wrong for so many years. Why was it not reallocated? Why were conversions not carried out? Why did they not use the money? If they realised that so many people were in three-bedroom properties when they should have been in two-bedroom properties, why did they not do something about that work? They are beginning to do it now, which is why there are so many spare rooms. That work should have been done, but it was not. No attention was paid to needs, what should have been built, and changing family demographics. It is right that housing associations could have reallocated housing by changing three-bedroom houses to two-bedroom houses. All those offers were on the table and are still on the table. We are trying to work through that, and the hon. Lady was right to mention it. We have provided a list of solutions to solve those problems.

I return to the number of people on Wigan’s housing list, which is 3,591families. Some people are overcrowded and still on the waiting list, and even if they are not overcrowded they may still be on a waiting list. That problem also needs to be solved. There also needs to be re-allocation of rooms. I understand the business pretty well because it is my family business and I know about conversion of stock and having the right people in houses. I understand what the Government are doing.

I resent people, even chief executives, talking about a wicked initiative. It is not wicked. It is solving a tremendous problem. We have been given a terrible problem and we take no pleasure in having to solve it, but we must do that. We must look at costs, people, the use of stock and how we support those people. Instead of people lobbying and scaremongering, I would prefer that we work together to solve the problem. Trading words is an ineffectual use of time and energy, but I believe that we can solve the problem, which is why we are monitoring it to ensure that the trebling of the discretionary payment goes to the right people.

[Yvonne Fovargue]

The chief executive of Wigan and Leigh housing trust said that the effects on people in Wigan are wicked, and that in the north of England and Wigan the effect of the policy on the people he sees daily—tenants—on the housing stock he manages and on his business planning for the future is completely the opposite of what the Government intend. No one is saying that the Government’s intentions are wicked, but their policy is not working and the effect on people in my borough and those I represent is absolutely wicked.

[Esther McVey]

We must get it right, and we are getting it right. I do not believe the hon. Lady’s description to be the case. We are working together to ensure that we support people now and in future. We never get a reply from Labour on spending commitments, but will the party—it introduced its policy in 2008—in addition to opposing what we are doing today, put on the record the fact that they will oppose, revoke or withdraw everything they put in place in 2008? There is silence from Labour Members because they will not go backwards on that commitment.

In our final few moments, I will say what we are doing. Our imperative is to sort out our housing stock, to put people who need houses into the bedrooms that exist. For the first time ever, we are ensuring that Britain is building. Under the previous Labour Government, where most of the problem comes from, there was a near collapse in the building of social housing, which fell to an all-time record low. In every which way of the argument, there was a pinch effect from lack of building, wrong allocation of resources, massive overspending, and not caring about those on waiting lists and those in overcrowded housing. We must deal with that in its entirety, but there are differences in different regions. I understand that, and the Government understand that, and that is why we will constantly monitor what we are doing. There has been a trebling of the discretionary fund, and Wigan is entitled to its fair share of that. We need to work in partnership with best practices in Wigan for pooling resources and helping everyone—not one section, but everyone who needs social housing.

Atos Healthcare

Esther McVey Excerpts

Thursday 21st March 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

The first point to make is that the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Fareham (Mr Hoban), who has responsibility for employment, apologises wholeheartedly for not being here today. As the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) said at the start of the debate, the Minister had been on his way back from Glasgow, where he had been meeting Work programme providers in Scotland, when his plane had to turn back because of engine problems. That is why he could not be here, and he apologises for that. He very much wanted to answer this debate, and I know that the Department, at his request, asked whether it could be rescheduled so that he could answer it himself. He was told that that was not possible. The only person who could withdraw today’s debate was the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton, but he did not do so. I understand that had he done so, he would not necessarily have had it rescheduled, so I am here to speak on behalf of my ministerial colleague.

The Minister of State engages widely and continuously with a range of people on the work capability assessment. In the past few months alone, he has met people from a range of charities, including the National Autistic Society, Mencap, Mind, the Mental Health Foundation, the Scottish Association for Mental Health, Citizens Advice, Scope and many others. As I said, he was in Scotland earlier today meeting people from the Work programme. He has also met people from a range of medical organisations, including the Royal College of Psychiatrists and the British Medical Association, and the president of the Royal College of Radiologists.

All Ministers regularly correspond with fellow MPs about the work capability assessment and we have recently written to all MPs on this matter. I can confirm that the Minister of State has had extensive correspondence with the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex), one of the attendees at the proposed meeting. The Minister of State has responded to almost 100 parliamentary questions from the hon. Gentleman, many on the work capability assessment or Atos, over the past six months alone. We are grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s interest and that of others, and we are keen to maintain a constructive dialogue about how we might further improve the WCA. Many meetings with stakeholder organisations or individuals can be challenging; the WCA elicits strong views and is not always fully understood. On occasion mistakes have been made, but we are always open to constructive stakeholder engagement. Since taking on his role, the Minister of State has engaged with organisations that have been critical of the Department and has done so even if they have intervened in judicial reviews against the Department—he has still had those meetings.

[Mr Meacher]

I have listened to all that the Minister says and I accept it, but the key point in this debate is: why is the Minister of State not prepared to see Spartacus? Spartacus is, by any standards, a leading organisation of sick and disabled people which is supported by thousands. Why is he prepared to see all the other organisations but not Spartacus?

[Esther McVey]

I will address that point later in this debate. What is key, and what the Minister of State felt was key, is a constructive dialogue. He has consistently said several things about the WCA since taking up his role. It has to be made clear—one would not necessarily take this from today’s debate—that he inherited the WCA from the previous Labour Government. We would not necessarily know that from listening to this debate. We have been committed to improving it. We want changes to happen, wherever possible, in collaboration with the people who know most about it and who are affected by it. The Minister of State made those points in the debate on 17 January, but it is worth reiterating them today. They are the core principles that drive much of the Department’s work on the WCA and will remain so. Since taking office we have made the WCA more sensitive and less mechanistic, successfully implementing a number of challenging reforms to it.

The independent reviews of the WCA are obviously one of our key drivers for positive change. Professor Harrington has had extensive interaction with a wide variety of stakeholders, including individuals, lobby organisations, MPs across all parties, and the staff in the Department for Work and Pensions and Atos who are affected by the changes resulting from his work. Professor Harrington listened to all of the concerns raised and made recommendations based on the evidence provided. His interpretation was that mental health conditions are difficult to assess and he recommended the positioning of mental function champions within Atos. We have listened and a network of champions is now in place to provide advice and support to other health care professionals. He also recommended that we put decision makers back at the heart of the system and ensure they are empowered to make independent and considered decisions, which we have done.

Professor Harrington spotted a gap in our relationships with clinical experts—

[John McDonnell]

rose—

[Esther McVey]

I will give way once I have finished this point, so that I can get the point across.

Professor Harrington spotted a gap in our relationships with clinical experts and concluded we were not consulting them enough on the guidance and training materials used by Atos health care professionals. We have responded by putting a process in place to engage clinical expertise. That is still in its early days but we are determined to make it work. I could go on, but I will give way to the hon. Gentleman.

[John McDonnell]

Will the Minister not just answer the question? Why not this group? What is wrong with this group? Why does the Minister of State discriminate specifically against this group?

--- Later in debate ---

[Esther McVey]

I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman is keen to get his point on the record and, as I said, I was coming to that. The key reason I was mentioning constructive dialogue was that I was setting the question in the context of all the people the Minister of State has met, regularly meets and will continue to meet. We are determined to carry on that engagement.

As the point has been raised and as I believe that both the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton and the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) voted for the work capability assessment and were in the party whose Government created the work capability assessment, let me say that it is this Government who are picking up the pieces, holding reviews and making it a far more workable benefit. That point has not been raised at all today.

The right hon. Gentleman talked about the letter and the correspondence. The letter was replied to within the 20 working days set out by Cabinet Office protocol. That is what I have been told today. It is clear that constructive—

[Mr Meacher]

I realise that the Under-Secretary has been brought in at the last minute, but that is not correct. My letter was dated 31 January and the letter from the Minister of State is dated 5 March, but I am not bothered about the technicalities of keeping to civil service rules about replies to letters. I want to know why Spartacus has been excluded when all the other organisations she has mentioned are being included. She keeps talking about constructive engagement, so why not engage with probably the most effective organisation of all?

[Esther McVey]

I will get to that. I have just had it confirmed that the letter was received on 5 February and the reply was set out on the date I mentioned.

[John McDonnell]

Just answer the question, for goodness’ sake.

[Esther McVey]

Actually, I was mentioning the constructive dialogue and what was important in the context of why my hon. Friend the Minister of State felt unable to meet that group. I understand that his diary was under immense pressure, but he had rescheduled things and was going to have a meeting, but he did not necessarily feel that the dialogue would be constructive because of the words used by Spartacus in this regard:

“The WCA is a statement of political desperation. The process is reminiscent of the medical tribunals that returned shell shocked and badly wounded soldiers to duty in the first world war or the ‘KV-machine’, the medical commission the Nazis used in the second world war to play down wounds so that soldiers could be reclassified ‘fit for the Eastern front’.”

Because of that wording, my hon. Friend felt that there would not be a constructive dialogue. What he was seeking from the many other people whom he had met was not just criticism—one has to take criticism on the chin—but a constructive dialogue to establish what those groups thought could be done better and how we could adjust the assessment. None of that had ever been forthcoming, for which reason—

[Mr Meacher]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Esther McVey]

Please allow me to finish the sentence—for which reason he had not thus far had the meeting. However, if there were to be constructive dialogue and positive outcomes from the meeting, I am sure my hon. Friend would meet the group, but given the tone of the remarks that I quoted, he did not think that that would be the best way forward.

[Mr Meacher]

We have finally got to the explanation. I could have been given this a lot earlier. The Spartacus report is about 100 pages long—perhaps slightly under 100 pages. The quote that the hon. Lady has given was one sentence in it. I agree that it is strong language; it is the language of exasperation, hurt and anger, but the idea that the Minister should refuse to see a delegation simply because of the use of such language is absurd. Politicians are a bit tougher than that. If he disagrees with it, he can speak his own mind to members of the delegation directly. They have engaged constructively and they expect the Minister to respond.

[Esther McVey]

I hoped the right hon. Gentleman would reject and condemn such language so that the group can start on a clearer, more open way forward and have a discussion in a positive light with, as I said, constructive dialogue. That would be a positive place to start.

Those comments are at odds with what Professor Harrington himself has stated. He has said that, although there is more to do, the work capability assessment is the right concept and the Department can be proud of what it has achieved so far in improving the assessment. Our response to the latest independent review made it clear that we agree with his views and that we are committed to continue to improve the assessment.

[John McDonnell]

Will the Minister give way?

[Esther McVey]

All of us can see that that is a positive statement on which to move forward.

[John McDonnell]

Will the Minister give way on that point?

[Esther McVey]

I will not give way on that point. We have implemented those recommendations. [Interruption.] We took on a very poorly designed assessment from the Labour Government and we have done significant work to get it right.

Furthermore, although the Spartacus report on the work capability assessment—the so-called people’s review—reflects what are clearly strongly held views, it is a collection of anecdotal accounts. It fails to recognise the improvements made to the WCA since 2010—[Interruption.]

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. Mr McDonnell, I know you are frustrated but you must not behave in this manner. Please allow the Minister to finish her remarks.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

I think the House accepts your apology and hopes that the Minister will be allowed to finish her remarks in silence.

[Esther McVey]

I think that we all suffer frustration; I do because I inherited something that was clearly unworkable and that we have had to spend more than two years trying to get right. We will continue trying to get it right. That is what we are doing and I ask the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington to concentrate on that.

Finally, we have also invited the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton to have a constructive talk with Atos to look at what we could do. I believe that he declined an invitation to discuss the changes that would improve the position. He dismissed the Atos invitation as something that would not achieve anything and he condemned the work capability assessment and Atos. I believe that we all have something to learn from this and that we must all work together constructively.

[Mr Meacher]

I refused that offer because the descriptors, the regulations and the guidance had been passed down to Atos Healthcare, as the agents of the Government, from the Department for Work and Pensions. It is the Department that is responsible, not Atos Healthcare.

[Esther McVey]

Then I would say that there is much for us all to learn, whether that means the right hon. Gentleman agreeing to meet Atos or the Department agreeing to meet Spartacus, but I conclude that the approach must be constructive, because I believe, as we all do, that we want to get this right for the most vulnerable people in society.

Question put and agreed to.

Jobseekers (Back to Work Schemes) Bill

Esther McVey Excerpts

Tuesday 19th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

I want to thank all Members who have taken part in the debate today, and I will answer in turn all the points that have been raised. I also want to thank the Opposition for taking a measured approach in supporting and expediting this important Bill, which will ensure that we are able to give jobseekers the best possible chance to find employment, as well as holding them to account when they refuse to hold up their side of the bargain. By ensuring that the Government do not have to repay previous benefit sanctions to claimants who have failed to participate in employment programmes, and that we can properly impose sanctions for such failures, the Bill will protect the public purse as well as the fundamental principle that jobseekers have responsibilities as well as rights.

I want to clarify the Court of Appeal judgment, on which many points have been made, not all of them correct. Our main point is that the Court supports the principle and policy of our employment schemes. The hon. Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) asked whether they constituted slavery under article 4 of the European convention on human rights. We are pleased to say that the Court of Appeal agreed that there was no breach of the convention.

[Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Esther McVey]

I will make some progress, as I have many questions to get through.

I want to offer clarification to the hon. Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris). The Court of Appeal ruled against the Government on a technical point and we are seeking permission to appeal to the Supreme Court on that point. Contrary to what the Opposition have suggested, a great deal of thought went into drafting regulations that would be flexible enough to encompass a wide range of programmes to support jobseekers. That is key; this is about flexibility for the individual and for the businesses that are taking people on. We want to get more people into jobs than ever before, and that is what we are doing.

[Mr Donohoe]

The problem in my constituency is that there are no jobs. People can have all the training they want, but they cannot get a job. That is the problem, and it is down to this Government.

[Esther McVey]

Obviously, the hon. Gentleman will be pleased to hear that the past 11 consecutive months have seen a rise in the number of people in jobs. Of course education, training and work experience are key, and we are doing all we can to help his constituents.

I want to talk about the scrutiny that the regulations went through. They went through the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, the secondary legislation scrutiny Committee, and there have been various opportunities for Members to raise objections. That did not happen, however, and the regulations went through. We are seeking permission to appeal against the judgment by the Court of Appeal. This is about communications with claimants, and our view is that it was clear that the claimant received information not only through communication via letter but through meeting and speaking to their jobcentre adviser.

[Mr George Howarth]

Will the Minister give way?

[Esther McVey]

I want to progress a little further.

There is one voice that we have not heard here today. The right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) talked about a failing system, but I want to hear the voice of the people who have been on the mandatory scheme. What have they said about it? It is interesting to note that 75% of them said that they believed they were more attractive to potential employers, and that their personal confidence had been increased by attending the programmes. Some 76% said that their ability to work as part of a team had improved; 89% spoke of the benefits of getting into a working routine; and 81% said that they enjoyed their work placement. We should all be listening to those voices, rather than making political points that are not what those people said.

How about the businesses that take people on? What do they say? Many said that the aim was to help people to get a job. That is key. What has come out goes to the nub of the argument. For some, it might have been their first experience of a work environment. We know that is true, because 1.9 million children live in homes where nobody works, so it is vital that they have the scheme.

[Mr Howarth]

Could the Minister explain how amendment 1 to clause 1, in the name of her right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, takes us any further than where we are today?

[Esther McVey]

It is to clarify the right to appeal—I did not actually hear the full question.

[Mr Howarth]

Can the Minister explain how amendment 1 to clause 1, which is in the name of her right hon. Friend, takes us any further than where we are today?

[Esther McVey]

The right to appeal remains. That is the answer.

Companies said that the mandatory scheme helped not just them but the local community. The hon. Member for Wansbeck said we did not need a Bill. Actually the Bill is required. Slave labour was mentioned, but that is not an issue. Targets were mentioned. There are no targets whatsoever.

We know that jobseekers should have responsibility to take all reasonable steps to increase their chances of finding work. We therefore cannot be in the position where we have to repay benefit sanctions to jobseekers who fail to take all reasonable steps. For that reason, I commend the Bill to the House.

Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Oral Answers to Questions

Esther McVey Excerpts

Monday 11th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

5. What recent assessment he has made of the likely effects of the under-occupancy penalty on households that include a disabled person.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

Let us be clear. The spare room subsidiary is not a penalty and it is not a tax. It is the result of, and a solution to, the inequality of treatment between those in the private rented and the social rented sector. The fact that housing benefit doubled in the past 10 years and the sheer imbalance in the system that we inherited resulted in 1.8 million people on waiting lists, 250,000 in overcrowded houses, and 1 million spare rooms in the system, when 180,000 claimants who are claiming disability living allowance, or whose partners are doing so, have spare rooms.

[Cathy Jamieson]

I thank the Minister for that answer, although I do not think it addresses the question. Disabled people in my constituency are coming to see me terrified about the implications of having to find additional money every week, so what can the Minister say about the disabled people who are contacting the local authority in my area to be told that they may not get a discretionary payment and that, even if they do, it may not last for the full year? Does she have any words of comfort for them?

[Esther McVey]

The hon. Lady, like all of us, has a duty to allay those fears, and it is something that we can all do. We know that so many specific instances could not be regulated clearly in law, hence we have trebled the discretionary payment to take into account all these factors. We know that pensioners are exempt and that we are helping, obviously, severely disabled children, and we have made clear all those who are being assisted. It is our duty to make sure that facts are clearly spelled out, and those who are most in need will be supported.

[Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)]

I know from my own constituency case load that Wiltshire council is often persuaded that families with disabled children can require an additional room in order to meet their needs. Will the Minister clarify the earlier answer to the hon. Member for Gravesham (Mr Holloway)? Is it the Government’s position that these families will be reliant on discretionary payments, or is it indeed the case that they will not see their housing benefit cut?

[Esther McVey]

If the disabled child cannot share and there is impact on another child, if they need that room, that room will be provided for, as the Secretary of State has said and in accordance with the local authorities.

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

I thank the Secretary of State and the Minister for their answers today. This policy will affect all parts of the United Kingdom irrespective of the devolved settlement in Northern Ireland. On the assessment and the figures that have been presented today, is the Minister able to say something about how many people will be affected in Northern Ireland, given that there is a complete lack of single bedroom homes, both in the private and public sectors, in Northern Ireland?

[Esther McVey]

I will be very happy to write to the hon. Gentleman with the exact numbers for Northern Ireland. I can say, from the money that has been made available through the discretionary payments, that we will be supporting those most in need, as we have said so clearly throughout today.

[Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)]

Given that the Prime Minister continues to state that families with disabled children or with family members as carers will somehow be exempt from the bedroom tax—and before the Minister reaches for her brief and tells me once more about the discretionary fund, she needs to realise that it is time limited and there is not enough in the fund—will the Minister advise the House whether the Prime Minister is pulling the wool over the public’s eyes, or has she abrogated her responsibilities as the Minister with responsibility for disabled people and not told them the exact impact of his Government’s policies?

[Esther McVey]

In line with the judgment, the Prime Minister was correct. We have clarified today that they will have the room and they will not need to move.

[Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab)]

8. What recent representations he has received on the sharing of data on missing children in the Troubled Families programme.

--- Later in debate ---

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

17. What plans he has to support disabled entrepreneurs.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

We offer a range of support to help disabled people get and stay in work, including Work Choice, the Work programme and Access to Work. In fact, we have extended Access to Work to make it available to disabled people setting up businesses though the new enterprise allowance.

[Glyn Davies]

Investment in disabled people’s user-led organisations has proved very helpful to disabled people, but does my hon. Friend accept that it is crucial for the coalition Government’s commitment to delivering fairness that we build on this policy?

[Esther McVey]

I share my hon. Friend’s views about disabled people’s user-led organisations, which is why we have put £3 million aside—£2.2 million has been spent so far—to support programmes that are being built by such organisations. I have been impressed with the innovative designs that have resulted from that, including, most recently, an app called Georgie, which was designed by a blind person and is now being manufactured and used across the country.

[Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)]

18. What plans he has to tackle the potential for digital exclusion under his plans for universal credit; and if he will make a statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Shailesh Vara (North West Cambridgeshire) (Con)]

T8. What assessment has the Minister made of the support available to disabled people through the Access to Work programme?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

Last year 30,000 disabled people were supported through Access to Work. We have extended that programme and added an extra £15 million, and it is working very well.

Housing Benefit (Under-occupancy Penalty)

Esther McVey Excerpts

Wednesday 27th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

I thank Members on both sides of the House for their valuable contributions to this important debate. It is good to have an opportunity to respond to a number of the points that were raised, and also to correct some inaccuracies.

Having listened to the whole debate, I know that there are some issues on which we all agree. Consensus is an important point at which to start, because we are all looking for a solution to a problem that the coalition Government have been handed, so I will begin by listing the facts on which we are agreed.

There is a considerable lack of social homes, because very few have been built in recent years. The Secretary of State has referred to a complete collapse in the building of social housing under the last Government. Housing benefit has doubled in the last 10 years. We all agree that we will have to manage the bill for that, but how are we going to deal with it? How are we going to find a solution to such a large problem? We all probably agree, too, that fairness must be at the heart of that solution: fairness to those who are in overcrowded homes, fairness to those who are under-occupying, and fairness to the taxpayer.

Let me begin, however, with the removal of discrepancies in the rented sector between those who are privately renting and those who are socially renting. An arrangement whereby people living next door to each other are renting under different systems is innately unfair, and must be addressed. I think all Members will be pleased to hear that I shall be taking Labour’s lead in this instance. Labour introduced the local housing allowance for private sector tenants who did not receive housing benefit for a spare bedroom, which seems a good point at which to start. We are doing the same, in that we are introducing equality in the system for everyone who is renting.

The second issue that we must tackle is the problem of people who are living in overcrowded accommodation. As my hon. Friend the Minister of State said, a quarter of a million people are in that position. My hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) and my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison) also mentioned those people, but Opposition Members refused to discuss them.

We also all agree that we are talking about family homes. They are not just houses; people have lived in them. That is why we have exempted those who are above the state pension credit age. We recognise that pensioners would be particularly affected by these changes. My hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester (Stephen Mosley) reminded Labour Members what they had repeated time and again. They must get a grip of the housing benefit bill. They never managed to do that in government, but they must do it if they are to be even a credible Opposition.

My hon. Friend the Member for Battersea made a very important point. When Opposition Members said that they would vote against the measure because they disagreed with it, she challenged them by asking whether they would reverse it and put that in their manifesto. Silence came from the Opposition Benches.

On discretionary housing payments, many Members raised specific issues and complex cases. Specific groups were identified, such as foster carers and people who live in houses with major disability adaptations. Rather than central Government defining exactly what should happen in every case, we have allocated the money we think is needed and given it to local authorities so they can respond on a case-by-case basis. Such local discretion is right. We might think that many different individuals should be exempt, but it would be impossible to write that into regulations and statutory instruments. That is why we have allocated discretionary housing payments of £60 million this year and £155 million next year to local authorities.

In the past, discretionary payments have been seen as a temporary fix for a short-term problem. However, under the new system these new payments can be for the long term, because some situations will not change, and if someone lives in a house that has been substantially adapted, they will need to keep it.

We have debated this subject for over six hours and many inaccurate things were said and many questions were raised and remained unanswered, so I will canter through quite a few of them. The hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) asked about children at university. Children absent at college are covered by the normal rates of absences and will not be affected if they are returning for holidays. My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) asked whether people can apply ahead of their need arising. They can: they can apply for these payments now, although, obviously, they will not be paid until the payment is needed.

The hon. Members for Dundee East and for Strangford (Jim Shannon) asked about people with a disability who need an overnight carer. Obviously, they are exempt, regardless of whether they need an overnight carer all the time or just occasionally. Again, Opposition Members got their facts wrong.

The hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) questioned the number of spare bedrooms. There are 1 million spare bedrooms in properties occupied by working-age people alone, so that does not include pensioners. The hon. Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) asked why Lord Freud could not attend a meeting. He could not do so because he was involved in a debate in the other place. However, I am happy to confirm that he will make that visit very soon. That is being arranged with the Secretary of State.

The hon. Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck) said that if people are moving around, this policy will not save any money. That is incorrect. She is not taking account of the previous circumstances of the people who will be moving into the vacated properties. [Interruption.] They may have been in more expensive private or temporary accommodation, so this dynamic benefit will save money. [Interruption.] Opposition Members are perpetuating inaccurate myths. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) is shouting more loudly at the Minister than I shouted for Arsenal at the Emirates last Saturday. It really will not do.

[Esther McVey]

The hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) talked about under-occupancy among homeowners and asked what we are doing about that. The Government support homeowners taking in a lodger if they wish, just as we do for people in social housing. There will be a £4,250 income tax exemption should somebody want to take in a lodger.

The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) talked about borrowing more money. We cannot keep on borrowing. That is what got us into this situation. We need to stop borrowing and start living within our means.

Let me finish dealing with the questions that were raised. Many hon. Members asked about the cost of moving—

[Pete Wishart]

claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).

Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.

Question agreed to.

Main Question accordingly put.

The House proceeded to a Division.

Oral Answers to Questions

Esther McVey Excerpts

Monday 28th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

About 280,000 disability living allowance claims have been reassessed over the past six months. Reassessments are comprised of super-sessions, where someone reports changes in their circumstances; renewals of fixed-term awards, which are by far the biggest; and reconsiderations.

[Chi Onwurah]

A constituent of mine had to wait two years to have his DLA appeal reassessed, causing him immense hardship. They found in his favour. He is not alone. Newcastle citizens advice bureau and the Newcastle welfare rights service each see two or three new cases of DLA delays every single week. How will the Minister ensure that the roll-out of the personal independence payment will not lead to the same vulnerable groups being subjected to more delays?

[Esther McVey]

I have the figures from 2007-08 and they are exactly the same as those for DLA this year, whether that applies to appeals or to people wanting to make new claims. That was the main reason for introducing PIP. It is about clarity and certainty for both the claimant and the assessors, so that we can reduce any delays in reassessments and appeals.

[Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)]

The Minister will be aware that the opportunity to have one’s DLA reconsidered at the end of a fixed-term award is, actually, not an opportunity to cut the DLA. Will she join me in welcoming the fact that more than 12,000 people in the past year have had their DLA award increased at the end of a fixed term? Is that not something that the Opposition ought to bear in mind when they criticise us for cutting DLA?

[Esther McVey]

My hon. Friend is correct. If people are being reassessed or if their term has come to an end, they will be reviewed according to their needs now and many people will get an increased award.

[Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)]

On 13 December 2012, the Minister announced that there would be

“a significantly slower reassessment timetable”—[Official Report, 13 December 2012; Vol. 555, c. 464.]

for the PIP process—the replacement for DLA—which I welcomed. However, did that significantly slower reassessment timetable impact on the contracts that were signed in August 2012 with Capita and Atos on a different timetable? Will there be any significant financial reassessments as a result of the new timetable? Did she consider whether the changes were significant enough to necessitate re-tendering the contract?

[Esther McVey]

We did indeed slow down the roll-out of the reassessments, having listened to the consultation and what various organisations and charities said, but we did not consider that to be significant change to the contract, so we are working closely with both Atos and Capita to ensure the smooth running of the roll-out.

[Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)]

7. What assessment he has made of the preparations for the introduction of universal credit; and if he will make a statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

13. What estimate she has made of the number of unpaid carers who will lose carer’s allowance as a result of the benefit cap.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

No one loses carer’s allowance as a result of the benefit cap for, as the hon. Lady may know, the cap is applied to overall household income.

[Barbara Keeley]

What advice would the Minister give to the 5,000 carers who, as the Government’s impact assessment states, will lose an average of £105 a week through the operation of the benefit cap? Is she suggesting that they give up caring, look for work and ask social services to find a care placement for the person they care for? Why have the Government not thought of exempting carers, who do a wonderful job, from the benefit cap in recognition of their unpaid caring work?

[Esther McVey]

I would not seek to tell anybody what they should do. We seek to work closely with people to enable and support them as best we can. We are doing that by trebling the discretionary payment to help people into work, because if they are on working tax credits, they will be exempt from the benefit cap.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

I can tell the House that

“carers caring for an adult disabled child or other adult relative could see their benefits capped, because the DLA of the people they care for is not considered to be in the same benefit package or ‘household’ as the carers’–even if they are living together.”

This is a direct quote from Carers UK. Does the Minister agree with Carers UK that it is confusing, complicated and simply unfair to protect some carers and not others?

[Esther McVey]

I remind the hon. Gentleman that the definition of “household” has been in place for some time, so what has happened has always been in place. As the Secretary of State said, there are many exemptions from the cap. Working with the discretionary payment, we can work together to get this right.

[Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab)]

14. What steps he is taking to address long-term unemployment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

T4. More than 2.3 million people with disabilities currently live in poverty. Given that fewer than half of all disabled people are in work, that we have a contracting economy and that at least £6.7 billion is being cut from disability benefits, how many more disabled people do the Government estimate will be living in poverty at the end of this Parliament?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

Let me say straight away that I do not recognise the hon. Lady’s figures at all. What I can tell her is that £50 billion is spent every year on support and benefits, and that will continue. We are spending £13 billion a year on disability living allowance, and we will continue spending that when people are moved on to the personal independence payment. We are doing a lot and we are protecting the most vulnerable, as acknowledged around the world.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

The winter fuel allowance is a non-contributory benefit, yet every year we spend tens of millions of pounds on winter fuel allowance for pensioners who live abroad in far pleasanter climates than our own. Is there nothing that the Government can do within the terms of the EU directive to ensure that such payments cease and that pensioners in this country benefit from that money?

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD)]

As the Minister knows, concern has been expressed recently following the conversion from disability living allowance to the personal independence payment. It relates to mobility-impaired people and the change from 50 metres to 20 metres. Will she confirm that she has listened carefully to the points raised about converting the guidelines to ensure that the words “reliably, safely, repeatedly and in a timely manner” will appear in the regulation, so that the people who are anxious about this can be reassured?

[Esther McVey]

My hon. Friend is correct to suggest that we have been in discussions about this. At the moment, the words “reliably, safely, repeatedly and in a timely manner” are in the contracts and in the guidance, and we are looking to see whether they can be put into the regulation, but that will happen only if that achieves what it is intended to achieve.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

DWP research suggests that over 42% of people affected by the bedroom tax will not be able to pay the difference and will go into arrears instead. Given that DWP research, how many people does the Minister or the Secretary of State expect to lose their homes as a result of these crazy policies?

Housing Benefit and Disabled People

Esther McVey Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd January 2013 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

It is a pleasure to take part in a debate on such an important issue, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) on securing it. It is also a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Caton. I believe that it is the first time that I have done so.

As we have heard, there is considerable interest among hon. Members in all parts of the House in housing benefit and how the benefits system supports disabled people, and it is important that we make time to discuss those issues in detail. Before I address some of the specific issues that have been raised, I will set out the Government’s approach to housing provision for disabled people.

As hon. Members will be aware, the Government are in the process of reforming the welfare system that will result in housing benefit for working-age people being replaced by universal credit. Current housing benefit arrangements include specific provisions for disabled people that mirror those for other means-tested benefits. They include, for example, a range of disability premiums, earnings disregards and permitted-work rules. With universal credit, we are simplifying the current arrangements to ensure that disabled people benefit from improved work incentives and a smoother transition into work.

My hon. Friend is right to point out that the cost of housing benefit has increased by about 50% in real terms over the past decade, with expenditure totalling £23 billion in 2011-12. That is simply unaffordable in the current economic climate. To begin to address it, the emergency Budget in June 2010 introduced a series of reforms to housing benefit paid to claimants in both the private and social rented sectors. Starting in April 2011, and finishing last month, we set up a series of reforms to local housing allowance, which is the basis for housing benefit awards made to people renting in the private sector. Those changes are intended to exert downward pressure on rents and introduce fairness into the system—for example, by setting caps on the benefit that is paid to ensure that the benefit system is not funding accommodation that many hard-working families could not afford.

Disabled people are not exempt from the reforms, but steps have been taken to provide some additional support to minimise potential adverse impacts on them. My hon. Friend mentioned the number of people affected by the social sector size criteria who are disabled. It is important to stress, however, that that reflects the general proportion of disabled people living in social sector housing overall. In answer to his question, I can confirm to my hon. Friend that the criteria allow for an extra room where a household has an overnight carer.

I am pleased to hear that Stafford borough council and South Staffordshire district council have been working proactively with tenants to identify, for example, where there may be scope for a mutual exchange. I have had other reports in the Department for Work and Pensions of such direct engagement with tenants. I must stress that many other options may be open to people, including those that they arrive at privately to deal with their own circumstances. Things that people can do—and are already doing—include moving somewhere smaller, finding the extra money required, or taking in a lodger. We are now waiving the income tax on that up to £4,250 a year. No tax would be payable on that sum. It is important to note that the private sector may have a supply of different sized properties and that people could move out of the social and into the private sector. When properties without the right number of bedrooms are not available in the social sector, they might be available in the private sector.

[Anas Sarwar]

Is the Minister seriously suggesting that people who are among the poorest and most vulnerable in our communities will be able to find £728, on average, from their annual income, to make up for the deficit in the housing benefit that they will get?

[Esther McVey]

I am not being specific about what people should or should not do. I am saying that there is an array of options, from which someone will find their best solution. The hon. Gentleman will, like me, have met people at surgeries who have said that they have come together as a family to work on the best solution for everyone. It is not a question of one person in isolation but the whole family. Many options are available. As we have said, we are living in tough financial times. What I am talking about is not something that we can take on board easily. We must just consider the fact that there are 1 million spare bedrooms in the current housing situation, but that 250,000 families live in overcrowded houses. We must ask what we can do to support those people.

[Anas Sarwar]

Will the Minister give way?

[Esther McVey]

I will proceed a bit further, and then if the hon. Gentleman wants to ask a further question he can.

There are always specific cases where the options in question may not be sensible or appropriate, and that is why we have trebled funding—a considerable amount—for discretionary housing payments, to give local authorities more flexibility to help people affected by the changes. Overall discretionary housing payment funding in 2013-14 will total £155 million. The funding has been allocated to support the bedding in of specific reforms, but we have listened to feedback from local authorities and as a result have built in flexibility that will allow authorities to allocate funding based on local needs. That flexibility includes, for example, helping disabled people who have made adaptations to their homes to remain in them, as was mentioned by my hon. Friend.

As I have said, there will be provision for those disabled people who need overnight, non-residential carers to receive additional payments for an extra bedroom. The hon. Gentleman pointed out that we are giving many types of support. The trebling of the discretionary benefit really does go to support the people most in need.

[Anas Sarwar]

On flexibility, is the Minister open to the idea of introducing a safeguard for people who cannot reasonably move to another local property because of the lack of availability and of sanctioning them only if they refuse a reasonable request? Is she open to that safeguard?

[Esther McVey]

The hon. Gentleman is speaking hypothetically. We have put in extra discretionary funds, because local councils will know exactly who those individuals are. We have put in extra money, and we have said that it is possible to move between the social and private sectors. With all the options that we have put in place, we believe that we will find solutions for all cases.

[Jeremy Lefroy]

I am grateful to the Minister for her answers. Will she give us some assurance that the additional discretionary funding, which we need to look at again to see whether it is adequate, will be continued through 2014-15 and 2015-16? Often the adaptations are such that it is not possible for a disabled person to move property in the next year or two. One of my constituents has adaptations worth some £30,000. It does not make any sense for them to move from their property.

[Esther McVey]

My hon. Friend makes a good point, and I will come on to that a little bit later and explain in detail what we are doing. He will also appreciate that I cannot make spending commitments into the next Parliament. None the less, with regard to the discretionary housing payment, the Government are committed to ensuring that the reforms are well implemented. We are working closely with local authorities and the Local Government Association regarding this payment usage. As part of the review of these reforms, we are taking ongoing feedback, and I will be pleased to pass on the points raised here today and any further evidence that emerges as the reforms are rolled out. We will continue to monitor and evaluate the impact of the changes.

I should like to put it on the record that a lot of the negative impacts that people talked about last year, such as an explosion of homelessness and mass migration, have simply not emerged. We all want to ensure that there is a smooth transition and that the change is affordable. Of course we are using common sense. My hon. Friend talks about expensive modifications. We know that we have to take that into account, which is precisely why we have trebled the discretionary fund.

We have also made arguments for exempting certain categories from the social sector size criteria measure. However, we do not believe that blanket exemptions are the most effective and affordable approach to targeting resources, because they do not take into account local knowledge. We have therefore avoided exemptions where possible and favoured the discretionary housing payment, because local decision makers are best placed to make decisions based on individual circumstances.

[Ian Lucas]

The Minister is being generous in giving way. Can she foresee circumstances in which someone who requires an overnight carer is not allowed an extra room within the housing benefit provisions?

[Esther McVey]

That is precisely why we are monitoring and evaluating the scheme, and we will continue to do so for two years to see what extra support might be needed. Of course we are watching and observing what is going on. [Interruption.] I will complete my comments here. However, we are committed to undertaking the independent evaluation of all housing reforms. The first report on the private sector is due to be published later this year, and work on evaluating the social sector changes will be implemented in April, with initial findings being available next year.

I trust that I have answered many of the questions that have been raised today. On other specific matters, I will get back to my hon. Friend. As I have already said, this is an important debate, and it is crucial that we closely monitor the situation. We are considering the most vulnerable people in society, and we have a commitment to them.

[John McDonnell]

I do not want the Minister to sit down thinking that there is no housing crisis out there. She referred to the predictions on housing benefit not coming true, but they have in my constituency. I have the worst housing crisis since the second world war. Nevertheless, she has mentioned monitoring, which is critical. Will she give an assurance that that monitoring will be published regularly, so that the House can receive and debate it? The points raised by the hon. Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) are critical. We must see what is happening on the ground, because a number of local authorities might want to work with Government to plan a transition over time. There will be a number of families for whom alternative private accommodation or social housing is not available and might not be available for years. An assurance that the monitoring will be published and that we will be able to debate it in the House would be helpful.

[Esther McVey]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. Of course, we have to monitor the situation, and I have confirmation from colleagues that the monitoring and evaluation will be made public. At the moment, there is much speculation about what might happen, but that is hypothetical. We do not know about that, but by monitoring closely, by introducing a discretionary fund and by working in a common-sense way with people on the ground who know best about local needs, we can get this right.

[Jeremy Lefroy]

I welcome the Minister’s commitment to monitoring, which is important. Will she say a few words about fathers who, unfortunately, are separated from the mothers of their children and who are not allowed to count the presence of their children in their home for up to three nights a week as part of the occupancy of that home? That is an important point. She and I, and I think all hon. Members present, feel that it is important for children to have regular access to both their parents—in this case, to their fathers.

[Esther McVey]

Again, my hon. Friend asks a key question. The heart of the matter is that we do not want children to suffer. Children must have what is right for them, but where a tenant has non-residential children, housing benefit may already pay for a room for the child or children in the place where they usually reside. Funding an additional room in both parents’ properties could be a double provision, but discretionary payments are the best way to address specific complex cases, which we are talking about here.

I am glad that all those points have been highlighted, and they will all be closely monitored. I thank my hon. Friend for bringing such an important debate to the House.

Personal Independence Payments

Esther McVey Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd January 2013 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) on securing the debate on such an important issue and welcome all the contributions that have been made. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Dr McCrea.

The UK remains a world leader in rights for disabled people, and we currently spend almost £50 billion a year on services and benefits for them. Those valuable support mechanisms enable disabled people to make their own choices and live as independently as possible. However, for those valuable services to continue to be available, they must be provided in a sustainable way that reflects the needs of disabled people in today’s society.

It is generally recognised by hon. Members on both sides of the House and by the Select Committee on Work and Pensions that disability living allowance needs reform, to reflect today’s understanding of disability better. DLA has not been fundamentally reformed since its introduction more than 20 years ago, and it is a complex, poorly targeted and inflexible benefit, for some. There is confusion as to purpose and sometimes unfairness in the awards that are given, which has damaged public confidence in the benefit. The changes in the treatment of blind and severely visually impaired people, from DLA to PIP, should be welcomed, for we are giving the clarity that the hon. Lady seeks.

If there had not been a need to deal with the faulty structure of DLA in the first place, it might have taken slightly less effort to bring about the changes that we need in PIP. There has been a rigorous consultation over nearly two years, taking into view representations from charities and organisations that have all had a say.

[Anas Sarwar]

Will the Minister join me in congratulating the Royal National Institute of Blind People, which has campaigned extensively on the issue and has managed to get some concessions, although there is still work to do?

[Esther McVey]

I will indeed congratulate the RNIB and other charities and organisations that have represented the needs of blind and partially sighted people. The hon. Gentleman makes a good point.

The approach taken in the DLA to recognise the mobility difficulties of blind and severely visually impaired people does not look at people as individuals; it looks at their conditions. What we are doing—and, I believe, what the hon. Lady seeks—is requiring that everyone needs to be looked at as an individual: how has their condition affected them? That really is what PIP is intended to do. It is personalised. It is about the individual: what help that person needs.

At the moment, for DLA, 50% of claimants do not have medical support for their condition. More than 70% have an award for life. We seek to serve the public, including the hon. Lady’s constituents, as well as we can by making an award that is personalised.

The hon. Lady’s first question was about means-testing: no, the award of DLA and PIP is non-means-tested and that is how it will remain. It is intended to help those people with the most barriers to overcome them and live independent lives. As I said, it is very much about the individual, about what is fair to that individual and about the needs arising from the condition. To that extent, it is very much personalised. It will be flexible enough to reflect individual needs—that is what PIP is specifically designed to do. It is about having clarity, so that people will be certain of what they will get, but also about flexibility.

I thank the hon. Lady for bringing her constituents’ concerns before the House, because that is what we are here to do, to put a face and a person behind the needs, so that we can explain things clearly.

[Jim Shannon]

Can the Minister answer my intervention on the hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling)? What can the Government do for RNIB and Action for Blind People to help people to fill in forms? Those organisations will be inundated with people needing help, so whatever assistance the Government can give will be money and time well spent.

[Esther McVey]

The hon. Gentleman may not know that the people seeking the award can say how they would like the form delivered to them and in what context. If people so wish, they can be accompanied by someone from a charity or organisation or by a friend to help them with the assessment. The process is about finding out as much as we can about the individual to help with the assessment and the decision so that we can give the correct award. Again,

“reliably, repeatedly, safely and in a timely manner”

is key to the decisions—that phrase is in the guidance and in the contract with the providers. The hon. Member for Bolton West asked whether that could be put in regulation, and I announced before the Select Committee on Work and Pensions yesterday that we are examining whether that would be of benefit. The matter is with lawyers at the moment, because we do not want to introduce something that could go against what we are seeking to do, to ensure

“reliably, repeatedly, safely and in a timely manner”,

which is key to the assessment. We are therefore looking at whether it can be put in regulation or whether it is better staying in the guidance notes. The hon. Lady also asked about those notes, which will be published as soon as they can be, possibly by the end of the month.

This is a principled reform, which we have developed in consultation and collaboration with disabled people. We have listened to their concerns, and those of their representatives and organisations, and we have made a significant number of changes as a result of the feedback from groups that represent visually impaired people. Indeed, that was recognised by RNIB, which stated in its report to the secondary legislation scrutiny Committee that

“the final criteria include a number of significant improvements for blind and partially sighted people.”

We were told that our draft communication activity did not take appropriate account of the barriers faced by people who cannot access written information. As a result, we introduced an additional activity to assess ability to read and understand signs, symbols and words. Therefore, someone who is completely unable to read because of their disability—for example, because of blindness—will get eight points towards their daily living component score. The score from that activity alone will mean that they get the standard rate of the daily living component. That is only one of the criteria; there will be a further nine in that section.

We also acted on the feedback that the effect of visual impairment for people who use long canes was not appropriately reflected in the mobility activities and that the barriers such people face are similar to those faced by people who have a support dog.

[Julie Hilling]

I appreciate what the Minister says about people who are totally blind, but what about those who can read at home only with the use of a magnifier? A magnifier clearly cannot be taken to the supermarket or into the street. Will such people be deemed unable to read?

[Esther McVey]

That will be recognised, because what an individual can do inside the house with a magnifying glass might be significantly different from what they can do outside the house, such as following a journey, reading signs or reading labels in a shop, all of which have now been taken into consideration and will lead to points being accrued during an assessment.

The final draft of the assessment criteria includes specialist orientation aids, such as long canes, in the “planning and following journeys” activity. Therefore, someone who is blind and needs to use a long cane to follow journeys, even in familiar places, will receive 12 points, which will qualify them for the enhanced rate of the mobility component.

We have acted on concerns about the speed of reassessment by extending the reassessment timetable, so that we can learn from the early introduction of PIP by fully testing our process. We will be able to consider the outcomes of our first independent review in 2014 and act on its findings before reassessing the majority of current DLA claimants. The extended strategy means that the main bulk of reassessment will not start until autumn 2015.

[Julie Hilling]

rose—

[Esther McVey]

I will give way, although time is running out.

[Julie Hilling]

I thank the Minister for her generosity. On mobility, what about people who are severely visually impaired but who have some vision and who need to use a cane for familiar and unfamiliar journeys? Will they be entitled to the highest number of points?

[Esther McVey]

Again, the benefit is based on the individual, so I cannot give an all-encompassing answer. We have taken on board all the factors that have been raised today, and they have been reflected in the assessment. We have made that very clear, and each person will be viewed on how they are affected by their condition. The likelihood is that the answer is yes, but we have to view people as individuals. There have been strong representations from all the blind charities and partially sighted organisations, and those representations are reflected. The news of how we have changed the assessment has been welcomed by the groups themselves.

We are also seeking to learn from the experience of delivering the work capability assessment—and, yes, from the failings that we have had to address—to ensure that we get PIP right from the start. As part of that, we are looking closely at the findings of both the independent reviews of the work capability assessment by Professor Harrington to see where we can improve the design of the PIP claim and assessment processes to make them better, more effective and a more positive experience for claimants.

I hope that I have reassured hon. Members that we have listened and acted on the concerns of visually impaired people and that PIP will take appropriate account of the barriers that they face on a daily basis. As material on the RNIB acknowledges, the changes now mean that the

“blind and partially sighted should see their needs recognised when PIP is introduced.”

Remploy Marine Fife

Esther McVey Excerpts

Tuesday 15th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

I congratulate the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) on securing the debate. It is a pleasure to see him in his place for such an important debate. I am pleased, too, that the hon. Members for Glenrothes (Lindsay Roy) and for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) made their points. We must ensure that we have, as we have had this evening, a constructive and positive discussion so that we engage potential bidders for the site. We need people to come forward and to have that constructive dialogue to make sure that we do as much as we can for the employees of Remploy.

I listened carefully to the issues raised during the debate. It is important that we put in context what is happening with the Remploy sites.

[Jim McGovern]

rose—

[Esther McVey]

We know that Remploy has faced an uncertain future for many years. The right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath will be well aware of what happened under the previous Government and under his leadership in 2008, when 29 factories were closed. A modernisation plan that was put in place failed. Unrealistic targets were set that were never achieved, and it cost £555 million.

We must look at what this Government were left with, what had not worked before, what money—half a billion pounds—had been spent, and the situation now. A sixth of the entire budget for people with disability and their employment support was spent on 2,200 workers in loss-making Remploy sites, when we have 6.9 million disabled people of working age, all of whom we must help.

[Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP)]

Will the Minister give way?

--- Later in debate ---

[Esther McVey]

Let me put that into local context, then I will give way. There are 36 disabled employees at Cowdenbeath Remploy, yet there are 13,800 disabled people of working age in that constituency. In Leven there are 28 disabled staff at Remploy, yet there are 13,600 disabled people in the constituency. As a Government we must help all those disabled people, so we have protected the £320 million budget. What we are doing is helping all those people.

[Stewart Hosie]

I thank the Minister for giving way. This is not just about money. It is also about information. The right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) referred to the Dundee plant which cuts the fabric for the Fife plants. It may well be able to be saved and rise as a phoenix as a social enterprise, but Remploy has been unable or unwilling to provide the cost breakdown for the factory, making the development of a business plan impossible. That at least the hon. Lady can surely sort out.

[Esther McVey]

I am happy to engage with the hon. Gentleman. All the information is coming out in a staged process, as announced in December. All the bids are now coming forward, but I will help the hon. Gentleman with any information that he does not have.

[Jim McGovern]

Will the Minister give way?

[Esther McVey]

I am running out of time and there is lots to say, so on this occasion I will not give way.

What is the vision for people with disabilities in the workplace? It is not our vision—we went out to disability experts and organisations and asked them to review the disability employment support and what we should be doing. They strongly supported the idea of moving away from the Remploy model. First and most importantly for the 21st century, they felt that we needed to get more disabled people into mainstream work. We need to get more disabled people into work because at present only 46% of working age disabled people are employed, compared with 76% of people who are not disabled. That means that there is a 30% gap in the employment rate and 2 million people out there whom we have to support.

In conclusion, the vision is that the money that has been protected must follow the person and will not go to loss-making businesses. Let me put that in context. Although the factory at Leven generated about £1.2 million in revenue for 2011-12, it is running at a loss of more than a third of a million pounds per annum. The factory at Cowdenbeath generated just under £0.8 million, but it loses £0.5 million in revenue per annum. We could use all that money to help support people with disabilities into work. We can help each one with, on average, £3,200 to get into work.

Of the 668,000 people with disabilities in Scotland, 152 work in a Remploy factory, but last year Remploy Employment Services got 1,700 people with similar disabilities into work. That is what we have to do—support all those people.

To answer directly some of the questions that have been asked, the Remploy commercial process is designed to maximise the number of jobs for disabled people. We are seeking viable bids for its business, wherever possible, and getting the best offers we can to come forward. That is what it is about—supporting disabled people.

Remploy is offering a three-year tapered wage subsidy of £6,400 per disabled person. The right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath has said that that subsidy is insufficient and has called for more money, but how did we come to that figure? We worked on past precedents. The right hon. Gentleman’s Government put wage subsidies in place for Workstep and we were guided by that, but the subsidy is worth more than that and other subsidies, such as the Youth Contract. We also have to strike a balance between the needs of Remploy’s disabled employees and those of other disabled employees, to whom we cannot offer that wage subsidy.

Yes, we have to take into account support for the workers, but not in a way that affects the commercial market for other companies in the marketplace. Significantly increasing the subsidy and support provided to existing businesses risks the very test that the commercial process seeks to perform, in that a business must demonstrate that it can be viable without continued Government subsidy. We have given Government subsidy in the past and, as I have said, the past modernisation plan failed—£555 million was put into it over a continuous period and it did not work. Therefore, we have to look at what is feasible and viable and at how we can move forward.

[Mr Gordon Brown]

rose—

[Esther McVey]

I have three minutes to go, but I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman.

[Mr Brown]

This debate is about Remploy Marine Fife and questions need to be answered about it. I have made a practical proposal that the Government, the Scottish Administration and Fife council should meet and look at flexible arrangements, so that the shortfall is eliminated as quickly as possible for a viable product. Will the Minister agree to those meetings?

[Esther McVey]

I will, indeed, agree to those meetings. In fact, I will be in Dundee on 4 February and I will be more than happy to meet Members.

[Jim McGovern]

Will the Minister give way?

[Esther McVey]

The hon. Gentleman knows that I will meet Members. I was in Scotland only a couple of months ago and, as I have said, we want to take part in direct discussions.

In the closing minutes, I want to explain the work and support that we have put in place for ex-employees of Remploy through the people help and support package. We have put £8 million into that package, which was never done in 2008. I will remind hon. Members of what happened in 2008: 1,637 disabled people left Remploy, 1,006 took voluntary redundancy and 631 retired, because they were offered enhanced amounts of money to take retirement and redundancy. We have not done that. We have secured people in a significant number of jobs and helped them.

[Jim McGovern]

Will the Minister give way?

--- Later in debate ---

[Esther McVey]

I will meet Members in Scotland and all the relevant parties.

[Mr Speaker]

Is the Minister giving way or has she concluded?

[Esther McVey]

I have concluded.

Welfare Reform (Disabled People and Carers)

Esther McVey Excerpts

Tuesday 18th December 2012 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Chope. I thank the hon. Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) for securing this debate on such an important issue, and I welcome all contributions to the debate about how our welfare reforms will better support disabled people, their carers and their families.

The UK has a proud history of furthering the rights of disabled people and I am pleased to say that, even in these very tough economic times, the Government continue to spend around £50 billion a year on disabled people and their services, to enable those who face the greatest barriers to participate fully in society. That compares well internationally. We spend almost double the OECD average, as a percentage of our gross domestic product, with only Norway and Iceland out of the 34 OECD countries spending more, and we spend a fifth more than the European average. More money will be spent on disability living allowance and the personal independence payment in every year up to 2015-16 than was spent in 2009-10.

We are world leaders in dealing with people with disabilities, but we should not be complacent, because disabled people are not a static group and we have to support them every which way we can. Some 3.2 million disabled people are on DLA and, over a year, the impairments of a third of them will change. Some people might get worse, and some will stay the same, but some will improve and get better and will no longer get the benefit as they will not be entitled to it. We will, however, support those who need support, or more support. The Government are committed to enabling disabled people to fulfil their potential and play a full part in society, but money needs to be targeted more effectively to ensure that support continues to be available to those who need it most, that there is a lasting impact, and that interventions provide a fair deal for the taxpayer.

Nearly half of disabled people are in work. Only 9% of working-age disabled people, and only 5% of those over the age of 25, have never worked. If we want to make a sustainable difference, we must do all we can to help more disabled people who can work to get into mainstream employment, and support them to stay in work. We know that many disabled people want to work but feel that the risk of losing their benefits is too great. By simplifying the benefits system and ensuring that work pays, universal credit will remove the financial risks involved in taking the first steps back into employment, and will increase the incentives of working, even if that work is for just a few hours a week. Universal credit will provide unconditional support to disabled people who are not expected to do any work.

Disability living allowance is an outdated benefit that has not been fundamentally reformed since it was introduced in 1992, and both sides of the House agreed that a change was needed. The reforms present an opportunity to start afresh, keeping the best elements of DLA that disabled people value, but bringing the benefit up to date and making it fit for the 21st century.

[Debbie Abrahams]

Does the Minister think that articles 19 and 20 of the United Nations convention on the rights of persons with disabilities are compromised by what the Government are doing in, for example, removing the Motability allowance from about 500,000 people?

[Esther McVey]

Of course we do not believe that the rights of disabled people are compromised. As I said at the start of my speech, we aim to strengthen and support them in every way we can.

The personal independence payment will be easier to understand and administer, and will be financially sustainable and more objective—the payment has not been so to date. It will be better targeted at those in most need. Throughout the development of the payment, we have consulted widely with disabled people and have used their views to inform policy design. It has taken more than two years of intense consultation, of listening and of working to adjust the criteria and the assessment, to get it right. We listened to people’s concerns about the speed of reassessments and, as I announced last week, we will now carry out a slower reassessment timetable to ensure that we get it right. The peak period of reassessments will not start until October 2015. Furthermore, the Government confirmed in last week’s autumn statement that disability benefits will continue to be uprated in line with inflation.

Carers provide an invaluable service to some of the most vulnerable people in our communities, and we want to ensure that they continue to get the support they need. We have committed to linking carer’s allowance to receipt of either rate of the daily living component of PIP, which is an important safeguard for carers. Our earlier analysis indicated that the link to PIP would result in broadly the same number of carers being entitled to carer’s allowance, even though there would be some churn between those who are newly entitled and others losing entitlement. Now that we have finalised the PIP assessment criteria we are, of course, considering that, and our objective remains to ensure that people caring for those with the greatest need get the right level of support.

[Barbara Keeley]

The Minister is right to comment on carers, but does she see how deeply unfair it is to apply the benefit cap to them? They will lose £105 a week. This stuff about households and the way in which they are defined is just nonsense; 5,000 carers should not lose out.

[Esther McVey]

I will explain to the hon. Lady why the changes have to be brought about. At the moment, there are 1 million spare bedrooms, 250,000 households living in overcrowded conditions and 1.8 million households on the waiting list, so we have a size criterion in the private sector, and we must get this right. We have to support people. We have to work with what we have, and we will introduce the changes because we have to get this right—it has not been right, and the previous Government left it to get into this predicament.

[Barbara Keeley]

rose—

[Esther McVey]

I will not give way.

Work must always pay more than benefits, and that is why we are introducing the cap on the amount of benefits that working-age people can receive. It is not reasonable or fair that people out of work can get an income from benefits that is greater than the average weekly wage for working households. We understand, however, that disabled people face extra costs, and that is why we are exempting from the cap households receiving DLA, PIP or the support component of the employment and support allowance.

It is fair that the benefits system should support people in public housing in the same way as it does those in private housing, but we have made changes to the housing benefit regulations, in recognition of the fact that some people need an additional room for an overnight carer who lives elsewhere. We have also listened to concerns about disabled people living in significantly adapted accommodation, and have announced additional discretionary housing payment funding of £30 million for 2013-14, to cover both that group and foster carers.

Instead of simply cutting money from everyone, we chose the more difficult but principled option of modernising the benefit and focusing support where it is needed most. PIP will be awarded on the basis of fair, consistent and objective assessments, and such assessments are not in place at the moment. The assessments have taken two years to develop. We consulted with disabled people and made key changes as we received their feedback.

Although they are different assessments that will work in different ways, we have learned from the experiences of the work capability assessment—something that the Opposition brought in—and we had to introduce Professor Harrington, who produced recommendations that we are still working through, to get this right. That will enable us more accurately and consistently to ensure that support is targeted at those who face the greatest barriers to leading independent lives. More than a fifth of PIP recipients will get both of the highest rates, worth £134.40 a week, compared with only 16% of those who are on DLA at the moment.

[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for giving way when time is so short. I have listened carefully to everything she has said, and what I do not understand, at the end of it, is this: why will disabled people be financially worse off, when she says that everything in the garden is rosy? I truly do not understand how she can say that, when every day on which we have a surgery we face people coming in to say how they are suffering under the Government’s policies. I do not understand—

[Mr Christopher Chope (in the Chair)]

Order. That is enough.

[Esther McVey]

Once universal credit has been introduced, many disabled families will receive more support than they do now, with the higher rate of support for all disabled children who are registered blind, for example. Households with one or more disabled adults will keep up to £647 a month—some £7,000 a year—of their earnings before seeing any reduction. Universal credit also offers a more flexible system for people whose condition and ability to work fluctuate. No one whose circumstances remain the same will lose out in cash terms as a direct result of the move to universal credit—there will be protection.

As we have talked about the cumulative impact, I will say that we have published impact assessments on reforms to workplace pensions, the child support regulations, automatic enrolment, PIP, universal credit and the benefit cap—the list continues. Labour embarked on a number of reforms, including moving from incapacity benefit to employment and support allowance, the introduction of local housing, and changes for lone parents, on which no cumulative impact assessments were done, as the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) and the right hon. Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire) said. It would have been far simpler to do a cumulative impact assessment, but because of the shift and the fact that the measures will not be in place until 2017-18 we have taken the advice that such an assessment would not be possible in its entirety. These are principled reforms, and we should all be proud that we are delivering them.