Oral Answers to Questions

Al Carns Excerpts

Monday 16th March 2026 Commons Chamber

[Patrick Hurley (Southport) (Lab)]

4. What steps he is taking to increase air defence support to Ukraine.

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)]

Alongside the conflict in the middle east, the war in Ukraine continues to rage. Russia is taking more than 1,000 casualties a day, and has launched more than 55,000 missile and drone attacks against Ukraine in just the last year. At the latest meeting of the Ukraine defence contact group, the Defence Secretary announced a new air defence package, worth more than £500 million, of missiles and systems to protect Ukraine from Russian attacks. In the coming months, the UK will deliver an additional 1,200 air defence missiles and 200,000 rounds of artillery through the air defence consortium.

[Patrick Hurley]

The Prime Minister’s leadership on Ukraine has been exemplary. Does the Minister agree that that leadership has helped to secure US commitments on security for Ukraine, and that this demonstrates the importance of the US-UK defence relationship to international security?

[Al Carns]

The UK-US relationship remains stalwart. Our collective leadership on Ukraine has been second to none; the Defence Secretary’s leadership of the Ukraine defence contact group has stimulated billions of pounds of investment; and through what we are doing in Ukraine, we are delivering in support of not just UK security, but European security.

[Sir Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford Green) (Con)]

In the last few weeks, the Prime Minister has been very clear about what he considers our role to be, under international law, if we believe that allies are being attacked. Does he see Ukraine as having exactly the same status as an ally? Does he believe that we are, of necessity, directly involved, given that it is under attack?

[Al Carns]

As the right hon. Member will know, we continue to support Ukraine with almost as much capability as we can. Through leadership of the Ukraine defence contact group, through capability and through industrial working groups backed by the United Kingdom and across Europe, we will continue to support Ukraine, and do everything possible to ensure the sanctity of Ukrainian sovereignty.

[Luke Murphy (Basingstoke) (Lab)]

5. What steps he is taking to increase pay for military personnel.

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[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)]

Let me be really clear: the UK’s priority is supporting British nationals and our partners in accordance with international law. The Prime Minister has made clear that any UK action must always have a legal basis. On 7 March, the UK notified the UN Security Council of the relevant actions, including our defensive counter-air operations, taken under article 51 of the United Nations charter. Military credibility and legal credibility go hand inusb hand.

[Ayoub Khan]

When nations commit war crimes, the UN charter makes it plain that other nations must not provide any support or assistance. Trump and Netanyahu started this illegal war and, in welcoming US aircraft on British bases so that they can be loaded with 2,000 lb bombs, the UK is clearly aiding and abetting that, in breach of international law. Right now, we are helping to escalate this conflict, which is bringing us to the brink of global recession. That is why the British public do not support our involvement in this war. Would the Defence Secretary like to explain why they are wrong?

[Al Carns]

Let me talk a little bit about crimes: support to Hamas; support to Hezbollah; support to the Houthis; support to various armed groups with lethal aid that has been killing British forces for 20 years. Are we going to apologise for protecting UK nationals? Absolutely not.

[Yuan Yang (Earley and Woodley) (Lab)]

Last month, satellite imagery of the Gaza war cemetery showed that Israeli forces had destroyed more than 100 allied graves using heavy machinery. This is a Commonwealth War Graves Commission site, and these are graves of British and allied personnel who served in the first and second world wars and made the ultimate sacrifice. Has my hon. Friend raised concerns with his Israeli counterpart? What steps will he take to prevent future destruction of Commonwealth war graves?

[Al Carns]

I thank my hon. Friend for her really important question. I am absolutely dismayed by the reports of damage to the cemetery by both Israeli operations and Hamas fighters. Brave servicemen laid to rest overseas should not in any way, shape or form have their graves defiled; neither should the courageous men and women who tend to the graves have to experience that. Together with our international partners, we have raised our concerns with Israeli authorities. We will continue to support the commission as it looks to assess and repair the damage when it is safe to do so.

[Monica Harding (Esher and Walton) (LD)]

11. What assessment he has made of the potential implications for his policies of the US plan for sustainable peace in Iran.

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)]

We are studying developments very carefully and remain in close contact with the United States and other allies. The UK’s position is clear: the best way forward for the region and the world is a negotiated settlement with Iran when it has given up its nuclear ambitions. Recent events have also underlined the importance of resilience, strong alliances and credible military capability in a world where regional crisis can develop quickly. A sustainable peace must reduce the risk of conflict, not simply pause it.

[Monica Harding]

My constituents are deeply concerned about further escalation in the middle east and the UK being pulled further into a conflict with no clear objective. They are also concerned about the impact on their energy bills, inflation and interest rates. President Trump is attempting to pull us into his war of choice, urging UK deployments to the strait of Hormuz and asserting that NATO’s future depends on allies committing to deploying assets. Will the Minister rule out the deployment of military assets to the strait of Hormuz, and will he do so as strongly as our German and Spanish allies have done? Does he agree that de-escalation is key, as any further military action threatens a sustainable peace? Does he also agree that a better way forward would be for the UK, as penholder on the UN Security Council, to present an emergency resolution to get the strait of Hormuz open through UN channels?

[Al Carns]

I have attended every staff college in the military—initial staff college, advanced command staff college and higher command staff college—and they all say two things: “First, you must have a legal mandate before putting people in harm’s way; secondly, you must think through to the end.” We will continue to work in a comprehensive and calm manner with our allies and partners to ensure that we can come up with a solution to the strait of Hormuz, and we will not rule anything out, because we cannot guarantee where this war is going to go.

[Chris Vince (Harlow) (Lab/Co-op)]

Residents in my constituency are rightly worried about the ongoing events in the middle east, so will the Minister reaffirm for the avoidance of any doubt that this Government’s first priority is to keep their citizens safe, and that our decisions thus far and moving forward have been and will continue to be based on the collective self-defence of long-standing allies and on protecting British lives?

[Al Carns]

As we speak, there will most likely be fast jets flying in the middle east or around Cyprus, tracking, identifying and engaging with drones that pose a direct threat to our British interests, our allies and partners and, potentially, British citizens. I take my hat off to them, and I fully support them. We will maintain that defensive posture for as long as this conflict continues.

[Kim Johnson (Liverpool Riverside) (Lab)]

12. What steps he is taking to improve recruitment and retention of merchant seafarers in the Royal Fleet Auxiliary.

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[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)]

Strengthening defence relationships with our allies is a central priority for the Government. We do that through joint operations, exercises, intelligence co-operation, deeper industrial partnerships and close planning with NATO and joint expeditionary force allies and other key partners. We have recently signed landmark defence agreements with Norway, Germany and France and have forged closer capability partnerships, including with Norway on Type 26 frigates and Turkey with Typhoon. The upcoming defence diplomacy strategy will help further enhance our international relationships.

[Gordon McKee]

The war in Ukraine has shown that rapid innovation cycles are critical to success. Minister Fedorov and others in Ukraine have helped to build a defence technology ecosystem that connects start-ups, engineers and units on the frontline, even allowing some of those units to operate quasi-independently to test out new technologies. Given that the strategic defence review recommended that the UK learn from its allies, how is the Minister using the defence relationship with Ukraine not just to support the Ukrainians in their fight but to learn from them so that we can strengthen the UK’s armed forces?

[Al Carns]

Since arriving in this House, I have been droning on about drones—it is one of the reasons I came into politics. There are three key lessons that we need to learn. The first is to adapt a process to give us a high-low mix of fifth-generation capability supported by cheap mass. That mass must be dumb hardware with sophisticated software. Finally, the software must be integrated across all domains and be driven by data and artificial intelligence. We will be able to achieve that only with a closer public-private partnership as we move forward.

[Michelle Scrogham]

The Government understand that “made in Britain” means good quality jobs for British people. Exporting those goods to international allies not only equips our allies with the best of British workmanship but puts billions of pounds into the UK economy. Barrow-in-Furness will build our AUKUS submarines, but what work is the Minister doing to ensure that UK small and medium-sized enterprises are well placed to benefit from AUKUS pillar 2 projects?

[Al Carns]

The first hundred pages or so of the SDR are about better industrial collaboration between the MOD and our industries. Work on AUKUS will create over 7,000 additional jobs at UK sites and across the supply chain, with over 21,000 working on the programme at its peak. We must do more to work with SMEs. The annual innovation challenge, for example, sees suppliers receive support for developing novel capabilities to demonstration phase. The UK winners in 2024 include two SMEs, one large supplier and one academic group.

[Mike Martin (Tunbridge Wells) (LD)]

TEK Military Seating in Tunbridge Wells designs and exports military seating. It risks losing a £400,000 order to a customer in the United Arab Emirates because it lacks the permissions in the export licence, and my understanding is that the Department for Business and Trade is waiting for an answer from the MOD. Will the Minister please investigate?

[Al Carns]

I do not have the details of that specific case, but I am sure that the Minister for Defence Readiness and Industry would love to do so.

[Dr Al Pinkerton (Surrey Heath) (LD)]

Following the drone attack at RAF Akrotiri earlier this month, there has been growing disquiet within Cyprus and the Cypriot community about the continuing existence of the sovereign base areas. Given the absolute necessity of this defence relationship between the United Kingdom and Cyprus, will the Minister update the House on the Secretary of State’s visit to Cyprus earlier this month? Could he also say what reassurance the Cypriot Government need from us to ensure not only that the base is safe but that the future security of Cyprus is ensured?

[Al Carns]

Our sovereign base in Cyprus is not in question. When the Secretary of State for Defence visited Cyprus, the Cypriot national guard reaffirmed that our relationship is closer now than ever before. We must always remember the complexity of dealing with air defence. When it involves high and fast ballistic missiles combined with slow and low drones, it is a very complex problem for anyone to deal with, but we are trying to ensure that we come as close to 100% as we can.

[Derek Twigg (Widnes and Halewood) (Lab)]

Given the present focus on the war in the middle east, there is concern that we should not lose focus on what is going on in Ukraine. On developing and strengthening our relationships with our allies, what are the Minister and his fellow Ministers doing to ensure that Putin does not take advantage of the current situation in the middle east, and that we ensure that Ukraine continues to get the full support, weapons and assets that it needs?

[Al Carns]

We continue to lead, both in the coalition of the willing and in the Ukraine defence contact group, which the Secretary of State attended recently, raising billions of pounds-worth of equipment support in weapons, air defence systems and everything through to female body armour. Ukraine absolutely remains a focus. This is not just about UK security; it is about European security, and that will not change.

[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

May I build on the excellent supplementary question asked by the hon. Member for Glasgow South (Gordon McKee) about Ukraine and counter-drone warfare? Thanks to the support given by this Government and the previous Government to Ukraine, it has become a world leader in inventing and deploying cheap responses to cheap drones. As a result, there is now an opportunity for it to assist our allies that are under threat from drone attacks in the middle east and in particular in the Persian gulf. Will the Government do everything they can to facilitate that, and thus show that Ukraine does indeed have some cards to play?

[Al Carns]

The Secretary of State has been in discussions with the National Security Agency and with key individuals in Ukraine. I am a firm believer that the Ukrainians need the west now and that in the future we will need them, given some of the technological advances they have made. It is also worth doubling down on some of the capabilities and initiatives moving forward, ranging from the hybrid Navy to the Army 20-40-40 programme, the Defence uncrewed centre of excellence, the NMITE drone degree to enhance and increase education, industry and the military forces’ move towards uncrewed systems and, finally, the £4 billion on uncrewed systems within the SDR.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

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[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

There are growing rumours that the Government plan to bring back their ill-fated Northern Ireland Troubles Bill to the Commons next week. If that is true, it will give us the perfect opportunity to debate the Prime Minister’s links with Phil Shiner, the disgraced lawyer who was convicted of fraud and struck off for making multiple false allegations against British soldiers. The Northern Ireland Secretary has told the House repeatedly that there is no such thing as a vexatious prosecution. Do MOD Ministers now agree that that is not just naive but simply untrue, especially after the case of Phil Shiner —a man universally hated across the British Army?

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)]

There are two key roles that the Ministry of Defence plays within this legislation. The first is to ensure that we protect veterans throughout any legal process to do with Northern Ireland, and the second is to ensure that no one corrupts the system to try to rewrite history with a different narrative. There is a third role, which is to ensure that those families who have lost loved ones who were in the armed forces or the security services get the truth, reconciliation and justice they deserve.

[Mr Francois]

I was asking about the current Prime Minister, not the next one. After previously denying that the Prime Minister was instructed to act in a case against veterans by Phil Shiner, on 24 February the Veterans Minister had to come to the House and correct the record because the Prime Minister did, in fact, act for Phil Shiner in the al-Jedda case before the Appellate Committee of the House of Lords. That case effectively opened the floodgates for prosecutions against British Army veterans, which the troubles Bill now threatens to do all over again. To save the Veterans Minister having to come back here again and correct the record twice, can she or this Minister simply tell us why Labour is led by a man who partly made a living out of helping to put British Army soldiers and even their commanders in the dock?

[Al Carns]

I thank the hon. Member for the field promotion—he, obviously, has not had one. We have two roles: protecting veterans and ensuring that no one can rewrite history through the courts. We will push hard on that and deliver it for the veterans who deserve it.

[Dan Carden (Liverpool Walton) (Lab)]

T2. Our history is as a naval power, and immediate threats to the UK include threats to undersea cables, the activities of illegal Russian shadow tankers and the closure of the strait of Hormuz. For the shipbuilding industry to thrive on our shores, it needs consistent contracts throughout the year to ensure that we have the skills and workforce in place. What is the Minister doing to ensure that we get to that position?

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[Ian Roome (North Devon) (LD)]

T8. Last week, HMS Dragon left Portsmouth bound for Cyprus, having been prepared for deployment inside six days. The Royal Navy says that preparation would normally have taken six weeks. What can the Government do to ensure that more of our surface fleet is available when urgently needed?

[Al Carns]

The hon. Member is absolutely correct. We took a six-week programme of deep refit and rearmed in six days—a remarkable effort from both the industry and the Royal Navy. I doff my cap to what they have done. That ship is now sailing to the middle east. At times of crisis, we can move things faster. We made a decision as quickly as possible, and if we need to, we will do the same again. [Interruption.] Opposition Members will recognise that an air defence destroyer is designed to protect a moving aircraft carrier. We may want to look into the investment in ground-based air defence over the last five to 15 years, and the lack of capability that we were left with. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I need to hear the next question. I will not be able to if there is chuntering across the Chamber.

Commonwealth Troops: First World War

Al Carns Excerpts

Thursday 5th March 2026 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

As the son of a man who fought in the second world war, I am privileged to be able to sum up on behalf of His Majesty’s loyal Opposition in this debate about those who fell in the first world war and the vital contribution made by Commonwealth troops during that epic conflict.

The first world war turned out to be a manpower-intensive conflict in which the contribution of Commonwealth troops was invaluable. The National Army Museum at Chelsea estimates that over 3 million soldiers and labourers from across what was then the British empire, today the Commonwealth, served alongside the British Army in multiple theatres of operations. We have heard a number of erudite and touching tributes from hon. Members to that effect this afternoon, and I will refer to a few of them, but before I do there is one other important point I want to make.

Where is Reform? We are here to debate the contribution of people from all nations, of all colours, of all cultures, made 100 years or more ago, to defending the freedom of what was then the empire and is now the Commonwealth. Why is Reform’s Bench yet again empty when we debate defence-related matters? If those plastic patriots who love to wrap themselves in the flag aspire to be a party of government, let them at least come to this House and behave like it.

Turning to the contributions of Members, I commend the hon. Member for Ilford South (Jas Athwal) for securing this debate and, if I may say so, for introducing it so brilliantly. He spoke memorably about the extraordinary contribution of the Indian Army—Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs all joined together as one army fighting for freedom against tyranny. He said that honour transcends borders. He was right.

My hon. Friend the Member for South West Devon (Rebecca Smith) spoke very knowledgably about the vital work of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, not least because she worked for it. She highlighted the commission’s marvellous endeavours to commemorate the sacrifices that were made in defence of freedom. On behalf of my party, I would like to commend the Commonwealth War Graves Commission for everything that it does.

The hon. Member for Bolton South and Walkden (Yasmin Qureshi) spoke powerfully about the contribution of the Indian Army, and especially its Muslim regiments. The hon. Member for Leicester South (Shockat Adam) followed her in a similar vein and spoke in particular about the Sikh regiments who have a proud martial tradition in British service, not least in the first world war.

The hon. Member for Alloa and Grangemouth (Brian Leishman) made, if I might say, a very socialist contribution, but he also paid tribute to those who served. The hon. Member for Glasgow North (Martin Rhodes) paid a fulsome tribute to Commonwealth troops. The Liberal Democrat spokesman, the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Monica Harding), reminded us that after the largely regular British Expeditionary Force was wiped out while holding the line in 1914, it was eventually citizens’ armies, including from the Commonwealth, who replaced it to win the war.

As there were multiple contributions from across the empire and the Commonwealth during the First World War, it would be invidious to attempt to highlight any one as more important than the others. It might be better to attempt to summarise briefly—in the few minutes that I have to cover a war that lasted four years—some of the national contributions to the wider war effort.

I begin with the Canadians. Following the outbreak of the war, Canada established the Canadian Expeditionary Force, principally for service on the western front. The Canadians fought in many of the major battles in that theatre, including the second Ypres, the Somme, Vimy Ridge and Passchendaele. In so doing, they were supported by troops from Newfoundland, although that did not formally become part of Canada until after the second world war. The Newfoundland regiment also fought at Gallipoli and then on the western front, including in the so-called last hundred days when the allied armies—the British Army in particular, but with Commonwealth support—broke the back of the German army in the field.

That victory, fully utilising the principle of combined operations including infantry, artillery, tanks and aircraft working in concert, should not be underestimated. It is often highlighted by military historians as a significant feat of arms, completely contrary to what might be called the “Blackadder” version of the history of the first world war.

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)]

indicated assent.

[Mr Francois]

I see that the Minister is nodding in assent.

The Australians also made a major contribution to the first world war. Over 400,000 served in what was known as the Australian Imperial Force. Over half of them became casualties, either killed or wounded.

Perhaps the most famous Australian contribution, combined with their comrades from New Zealand, was in the ill-fated campaign at Gallipoli in 1915 when the Australian and New Zealand army corps, now forever known as the Anzacs, suffered heavy casualties attempting to overcome the extremely well dug-in Turkish defences on the peninsula. Nevertheless, it is important to record that Anzac troops also served bravely in other theatres of war, not least in the middle east and on the western front.

India, which many hon. Members referred to, made the largest contribution from the Commonwealth, particularly if we include those from what is now modern day Bangladesh and Pakistan. I think it contributed more than a million troops in total over the course of the first world war.

I should declare an interest here as my great-grandfather-in-law Colonel William Sanders served as part of the Indian Army, and at one time commanded a battery of artillery towed by elephants. [Interruption.] He did. He then transferred to the Royal Garrison Artillery on the western front, winning a Distinguished Service Order at the battle of St Quentin, about which the family are obviously proud. The Indian Army of today, and its Bangladeshi and Pakistani counterparts, maintain proud regimental histories that date back to their actions in the first world war.

South African regiments also made an important contribution to the allied war effort, including the 1st South African Brigade, who famously fought at Delville Wood, which the troops nicknamed “Devil’s Wood”, on the Somme. Given what they went through, that was probably appropriate. The South Africans fought not just on the western front but against German troops on the African continent itself, including in both east and south-west Africa. It is also important to record the contribution of some 60,000 black South Africans who served mainly in support and logistical roles rather than as frontline infantry but nevertheless made an important contribution to the allied war effort, as indeed was recognised by General Jan Smuts.

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[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South (Jas Athwal) for securing this very important debate at a very important time, to all the hon. and right hon. Members for their thoughtful contributions, and to the spirit of the House.

The role played by Commonwealth forces in the first world war is pivotal; indeed, it is legendary—an all too often overlooked chapter of our nation’s history. I am grateful that this debate will help us tell that story to this generation. The contribution of those forces is etched in stone at the heart of London, on the memorial gates on Constitution Hill, on which are inscribed:

“In memory of the five million volunteers from the Indian sub-continent, Africa and the Caribbean who fought with Britain in two world wars.”

It is a fitting memorial that honours around 3 million people from the Commonwealth who volunteered and fought in world war one, from the Indian subcontinent, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Africa and as far as the Caribbean.

[Liam Conlon (Beckenham and Penge) (Lab)]

The Minister mentions commemoration in London. In my part of south-east London, I had the pleasure of going, with representatives of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, to look at the graves that it maintains. Does he agree that the commission plays a vital role, not only in commemorating those who have fallen, but in educating children and young people today about the contributions that were made?

[Al Carns]

I completely agree. The commission maintains and looks after thousands of memorials all over the world, which helps us continue to educate and to communicate an important lesson.

The memorial in London commemorates the campaigns fought: on the western front, in Gallipoli, Russia, the middle east and Africa—indeed, in every major theatre of the conflict. It is also a memorial that rightly immortalises Commonwealth recipients of the Victoria Cross during the great war. They include brave men like Khudadad Khan, who was mentioned earlier: a courageous soldier in the British Indian Army who single-handedly held back the enemy to enable reinforcements to arrive. He was the first non-British recipient of our highest military honour during the first world war.

Of the 1 million people under British command killed during the first world war, nearly a quarter came from the Commonwealth nations. Having served in multiple theatres of conflict to protect the country that I am really proud to call home, and having lost good colleagues and friends, I have some ideas of the sacrifice they loyally made, but not—in any way, shape or form—of the scale. Over 74,000 people came from India, 65,000 from Canada, more than 62,000 from Australia, 18,000 from New Zealand and nearly 12,000 from South Africa. Their names are recorded by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission across cemeteries and memorials on every continent, with dedicated memorials inaugurated or under construction in Cape Town, Nairobi, and Freetown in Sierra Leone. Commonwealth forces are honoured prominently during remembrance, with Commonwealth high commissioners playing a high-profile role in commemorations at the Cenotaph—but we must do more. Today we remember their service and their sacrifice, and I am delighted that their legacy lives on in our armed forces.

Let me turn to some of the comments made during the debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South made some poignant remarks; different languages, different cultures and different faiths came together to fight for a common good, demonstrating incredible honour, unbelievable duty and outstanding courage. The key lesson from that is that it did not matter where someone came from, their religion or their race; they were united in a common cause.

The hon. Member for South West Devon (Rebecca Smith) was right to point out the outstanding work done by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, and I commend her for her past and ongoing support for it. The commission commemorates 1.7 million casualties across the globe, and even now, we have 5,000 Commonwealth personnel serving in the British military. My hon. Friend the Member for Bolton South and Walkden (Yasmin Qureshi) told us a truly remarkable story about a wireless operator deployed behind enemy lines and covertly inserted into France, describing how Commonwealth forces, or individuals from further afield, played every part in the operational tapestry of both the first and second world wars.

The hon. Member for Leicester South (Shockat Adam) highlighted how our histories are entwined, but said that in some cases we fail to educate and to communicate that, in particular to the youth of the nation. He said that if we are to push in the same direction, we must understand our shared history and the common cause of democracy, the rule of law, the right to self-determination and equal rights.

My hon. Friend the Member for Alloa and Grangemouth (Brian Leishman) made some interesting comments and said that war is easy to talk about. Well, I can tell him now that war, if you have been engaged in it, is not easy to talk about. The best way to avoid conflict is to deter it, and I support the comments of the right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois) that we do not deter it by not preparing for it. I try to keep politics out of this debate, because this is not about a lack of realism; it is about remembrance.

My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North (Martin Rhodes) mentioned the importance of education and communication to bind us together, to build bridges and to remove the division that people are sowing. He said that we must deal in unity, hope and ambition to drive the country forward, and I completely commend that narrative. The hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Monica Harding) pointed to the staggering contributions from across the Commonwealth, as we have heard from many people—such a poignant thing to dwell on.

The right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford highlighted the lack of individuals from certain parties in this House today. Well, I will tell him where they are. They are probably out on social media, painting the sky grey and then selling the country umbrellas. It is an absolute travesty that they are not here to hear about the joint history that every Member has mentioned, and to talk about the shared sacrifice and what unity can indeed overcome.

I commend points made about the early stages of combined arms manoeuvre—something we see in Ukraine with the use of uncrewed systems, which is changing how we fight. Unfortunately, conflict tends to be the mother of invention.

My final point is this. When individuals from the Commonwealth came to fight, it was a huge unifying factor. Bombs, bullets and battlefields do not discriminate. They served together, they died together, and now we must focus on how we tell their story to ensure that we live together.

I again express my gratitude to my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South for securing this debate. I am pleased that we have had the chance to mark the loyalty, courage and sacrifice of Commonwealth soldiers during the first world war. More than a century later, their legacy still inspires many young men and women. We must do more to honour their sacrifice and increase our ability to collectively recruit people into the British armed forces from all walks of life. As our debate has shown, their legacy continues to inspire us all.

Somalia: Operating Base SHAND Gifting

Al Carns Excerpts

Thursday 5th February 2026 Written Statements

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)]

It is the normal practice when a Government Department propose to make a gift of a value exceeding £300,000, for the Department concerned to present to the House of Commons a minute giving particulars of the gift and explaining the circumstances; and to refrain from making the gift until 14 parliamentary sitting days after the issue of the minute, except in cases of special urgency.

I have today laid before the House a departmental minute describing the gifting of a UK compound within the Mogadishu international airport in Somalia, previously known as Operating Base SHAND, to the African Union support and stabilisation mission in Somalia.

AUSSOM is a multidimensional African Union-led peace support mission approved by the United Nations. Its focus is stabilisation, security and state-building, aiming to transfer full security responsibilities to Somali security forces by December 2029. Since 2021, the UK has contributed nearly $140 million (£102.5 million) to AUSSOM and its predecessor mission, which reflects the UK’s broader commitment to African-led peace initiatives, working in partnership with the Federal Government of Somalia, the African Union, and the United Nations to tackle shared security challenges.

Operating Base SHAND—a UK compound within Mogadishu international airport—was originally commissioned in 2017 to house a three-year deployment to the United Nations support office in Somalia, announced by the then Prime Minister in 2015. That deployment, Operation CATAN, ended as planned in March 2019. Since then, the compound has remained the primary base for UK operations in Somalia. Having served its intended purpose, the base now exceeds the UK’s accommodation requirements in Somalia.

The UK remains committed to working with the Federal Government of Somalia in supporting Somalia’s security, alongside our international partners.

The Treasury has approved the proposal in principle. If, during the period of 14 parliamentary sitting days beginning on the date on which this minute was laid before the House of Commons, a Member signifies an objection by giving notice of a parliamentary question or a motion relating to the minute, or by otherwise raising the matter in the House, final approval of the gift will be withheld pending an examination of the objection.

[HCWS1308]

Armed Forces Bill

Al Carns Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 26th January 2026 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)]

It is a true honour to close the debate. I thank hon. Members across the House who have spoken well in support of our brave servicemen and women, upholding Parliament’s proud cross-party tradition of expressing our profound gratitude to those serving in the UK’s armed forces. It is not lost on me who is not here today.

I appreciate that some in this Chamber have raised questions about the measures in the Bill or about defence in general, so let me address some of the questions. The hon. Members for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge) and for Taunton and Wellington (Gideon Amos) and the right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois) rightly mentioned our service in Afghanistan, as did many others in the House. It is not lost on me that when 9/11 took place, it is the only time when article 5 has been called. The US relied on us collectively not just for a military response, but for an inter-agency response to build the functions and capability to deal with terrorism, which is so successfully dealt with today. It is also not lost on me that per capita, the Georgians, the Danish and the Estonians lost a significant amount of souls in that conflict. I often say that those who do not read history are doomed to repeat it, and I think we saw an example of that.

The hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Vikki Slade) highlighted issues with the covenant, but also highlighted accommodation and the move towards the next phases of any review. The single living accommodation strategy is well under way. On that note, I pay tribute to Natalie Elphicke and the whole team, who put an in amazing effort on the defence housing strategy, which has resulted in some of the findings, in particular the creation of the Defence Housing Service, which will alleviate for the Defence Infrastructure Organisation some of the pressure of looking after housing and professionalise the service as we move forward. I also support the hon. Member in her support for Toby Gutteridge, an individual I know well and who needs our support as he continues with his standard of life.

I welcome Opposition Members’ comments on Ukraine. This is a bipartisan issue—it is an idea bigger than ourselves. We welcome and thank them for their support on Ukraine in the early days, which we took on and have continued after the change in Government.

My hon. Friends the Members for Slough (Mr Dhesi), for Portsmouth North (Amanda Martin), for Barrow and Furness (Michelle Scrogham) and for Edinburgh South West (Dr Arthur) all highlighted issues with the covenant, as did many others. The reality is that it is moving from three areas of Government all the way to 14. It will be significant, but it will take time to put it in place. We have to accept that at the moment, the execution of the covenant results in a postcode lottery across the United Kingdom, but there is a requirement of adherence to the legal duty. There will be a communication and education plan to ensure that everyone knows the standards we need to live by. There will be statutory guidance, training and briefings. Indeed, some of the other projects like Operation Valour that we are rolling out will help us police the delivery of the covenant across those councils.

I have been a long-standing fan of the reserves, and I have to admit that I have a conflict of interest: I am a reservist. The Army, Navy and Air Force always respond to crisis, but the reality is that economies, industries and societies win conflicts. We can all learn the lesson from Ukraine that reservists often fill the ranks more the longer a conflict goes on. I will come later to comments about how reservists are being funded and how we will improve that process to ensure that the nation is ready should a crisis befall us.

I turn to the fitness application. I have met individuals who have destroyed a hundred tanks and individuals who have killed hundreds of Russians who could not pass a fitness test in their life. The reality is the changing character of conflict requires different skills. That is why things like cyber direct entry and different skills are just as applicable as being able to run or do pull-ups and push-ups. We have already got rid of 100 outdated medical requirements on the medical test. There is a long way to go on that, and I would like to see us open it up as we move forward, and we will see some of that in the Bill as it progresses.

I welcome the support from the hon. Member for Lewes (James MacCleary) on housing. The scrutiny and governance of that will absolutely be controlled by our Secretary of State. Within the covenant, the ability for us to produce an annual report to ensure that we are reporting to Government on the standards of adherence to the covenant and legal duty will be pushed every year. He mentioned a cultural change in the service justice system, which is far broader than what is in the Bill and is required. It is worth noting that Raising our Standards, the violence against women and girls taskforce, the zero tolerance policy and our tri-service complaints process are just some of the things that we are progressing outside legislation. The Bill goes further within legislation. Individually and collectively, the measures will be significant.

The right hon. and gallant Member for Tonbridge (Tom Tugendhat) mentioned several speeches in Davos. There are two quotes that I think it worth repeating here:

“A world of fortresses will be poorer, more fragile and less sustainable”,

and we must not

monetise…relationships. Allies will diversify to hedge against uncertainty.”

Those two quotes from Davos are worth remembering. We have an idea far bigger than the dollar sign, the euro or the pound, which is a moral obligation towards decency, transparency, the right to self-determination and, of course, democracy.

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Jack Abbott) for his tribute to the armed forces and in particular for mentioning Combat2Coffee and its indomitable member Terry Butcher, who pushes so hard to support the armed forces. More importantly, I would like the Combat2Coffee shop in the Ministry of Defence to be replicated in all Government Departments—perhaps we can take that on as a separate little task.

I thank the hon. Member for North Devon (Ian Roome) for his support for the Defence Housing Service. The House will be delighted to know that family satisfaction with defence housing has gone up to the highest level since 2021. There is a long way to go, but we are heading in the right direction. Similarly, recruitment is up 13%, and outflow is down 8%.

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Edgbaston (Preet Kaur Gill) for her constant support for all varieties of veterans across her constituency, and for being the MP of a constituency neighbouring mine. When people question whether we were on the frontline in Afghanistan or in any other conflict, I suggest one visit: to Birmingham’s Selly Oak hospital. The nurses, doctors and carers are second to none, and they have seen stuff that would shock us all. If there were any need for better validation of who has been on the frontline and who has not, Selly Oak hospital is the place to go.

The right hon. Member for North East Cambridgeshire (Steve Barclay) highlighted that the rhetoric is not matched by the record on reservists. I would say that, in some cases, his narrative is not matched with his experience. All the facts are useful, but unless he connects them together, he does not necessarily have the understanding. Some of his comments were absolutely on the money, but one of the biggest problems with the reserves is to do not with finances but with the complete and utter mess of bureaucracy when trying to join the reserves.

[Steve Barclay]

Does the Minister not accept that the number of reservists and the number of training days have both fallen on his watch, and that the sums of money to significantly increase them is modest relative to the £60 billion-plus that the MOD spends?

[Al Carns]

In the strategic defence review, we have committed to an increase of 20%. First, reserve spending went up in 2023-24 from £189.9 million to £202.4 million, so what the right hon. Gentleman says is factually incorrect. Secondly, on personnel statistics, in the last quarter our trained strength in the reserves has risen from 28,000 to 29,000. I think we need collectively to check our statistics.

The right hon. Gentleman will know that to stand here and tell the world about our ability to respond to article 3 would be slightly misguided. He mentioned the creation of quangos, but if he had read the Bill fully he would recognise that the reserve forces and cadets associations are going from 13 to one so-called quangos, with an increase of one in the Defence Housing Service, which is absolutely required to deliver an effective housing service. He will also know that Op Valour means more money for veterans than ever before. Tranche 1 of the funding has now been closed, and recruitment is fully under way. If he would like to talk through why the recruitment has been paused in the past, I am more than happy to talk about that offline, but I want to ensure that the right person is in the right job, so that the programme is a success.

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Alex Baker) for her passionate and unrelenting support, which is not lost on me—it is second to none and super impressive. My hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Luke Akehurst) has such a resounding history in the armed forces—it really is impressive. I know that supporting everyone in that constituency is a passion of his.

Will the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Josh Babarinde) please write to me about the issue with Pauline? I would like to look at it in detail, as I know would my hon. Friend the Minister for Veterans and People. My hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire and Bedworth (Rachel Taylor) welcomed the support for Op Valour. Her support for the Bill as it progresses is useful, and she always champions our armed forces constituents.

The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) was, as always, articulate and to the point. I have spoken to Ministers in Northern Ireland and to the armed forces Veterans’ Commissioner, and while the covenant is applicable to the whole United Kingdom, we must consider how it is executed within the devolved Administrations. I am willing to work with the hon. Gentleman and a collective group of Northern Ireland MPs to ensure that we implement it as best as we possibly can, while accepting that there are nuances with security and how it needs to be implemented as a whole.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the Minister—that is a superb response. The hon. and learned Member for North Antrim (Jim Allister), my right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson), David Johnstone, and the hon. Member for South Antrim (Robin Swann) are the people with whom, if possible, we would have that meeting, and constructively work together to do better for our veterans in Northern Ireland.

[Al Carns]

The hon. Member has my word that I will continue to engage with him and move that forward.

I say to my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Jayne Kirkham) that there is no Navy without the Royal Fleet Auxiliary—it is as simple as that—so well done for pushing that ten-minute rule Bill and including in it delivering support to the RFA that is truly needed. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale (Lizzi Collinge) for her support for the armed forces. It is consistent and super powerful, and I appreciate it. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool (Mr Brash) for his kind words and, importantly, his impressive support for veterans and the roll-out of Op Valour.

My hon. Friend the Member for Leyton and Wanstead (Mr Bailey) has continually supported the covenant and the armed forces as a whole, and the impact on immigration is something we need to look forward to as the covenant rolls out more broadly. I agree that the removal of the C-130 was a bad thing. The continual support of my hon. Friend the Member for Bracknell (Peter Swallow) for the cadet forces and the armed forces community is second to none and really impressive.

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Danny Beales) for his support for the armed forces community and, in particular, for housing, which has been impressive throughout. Indeed, we saw the first few houses in the roll-out of 1,000 houses getting renewed—the Secretary of State and I were there to see the good, the bad and the ugly, and it was great to see that we had landed on the good with so many houses for armed forces personnel in his constituency. Finally, the support of my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Pam Cox) for parachute battalion 16 Air Assault Brigade, and in representing serving families and veterans, is second to none.

From my perspective, it is quite simple: the Armed Forces Bill is moving forward in four key areas. First, for defence housing, we are creating the Defence Housing Service, moving it away from the Defence Infrastructure Organisation, increasing capacity and upskilling professionalism as we look at defence housing as a whole. For the reserves, it is about extending service from 55 to 65 for those individuals in specific roles who can still add value to the military up to that age. It is also about making the transfer more seamless, and standardising the recall from six years to 18 years consistently across the Army, Navy and Air Force.

The Bill is about better support, with the covenant moving from three to 14 Departments and policy areas. It is about us renewing the contract with those who serve. Finally, the Bill is about better protections. It is about sexual risk orders, domestic abuse protections and orders, and stalking protection orders. Indeed, it boils down to the ability of victims to have choice. Since the Lyons review in 2018-19, we have changed defence significantly when it comes to how we look at serious crime. We created the serious crime unit under the previous Government, and it has gone from a fledgling organisation to one with a fully upskilled and up-gunned ability to deal with the most serious crimes. It is deeply impressive, so if anybody has any concerns about how we are dealing with the most serious issues across defence, they should please come and see me, the Secretary of State or the Minister for Veterans and People, and organise a visit. We will happily deliver that to ensure that hon. Members can go and visit it.

In summary, this Bill garners support from Members from all parts of the House. There are some issues that we will debate repeatedly over the next several months, but I think that we will get to a really good place that supports our serving armed forces across the Navy, the Army and the Air Force, our reservists, our service families, our veterans and our whole armed forces community, including all the charities that support them as well.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a Second time.

Armed Forces Bill: Programme

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)),

That the following provisions shall apply to the Armed Forces Bill:

Select Committee

(1) The Bill shall be committed to a Select Committee.

(2) The Select Committee shall report the Bill to the House on or before 30 April 2026.

Committee of the whole House, Consideration and Third reading

(3) On report from the Select Committee, the Bill shall be re-committed to a Committee of the whole House.

(4) Proceedings in Committee of the whole House on recommittal, any proceedings on Consideration and proceedings on Third Reading shall be taken in accordance with the following provisions of this Order.

(5) Proceedings in Committee of the whole House and any proceedings on Consideration shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the moment of interruption on the day on which proceedings in Committee of the whole House are commenced.

(6) Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption on that day.

Programming committee

(7) Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to proceedings in Committee of the whole House, to any proceedings on Consideration or to proceedings on Third Reading.

Other proceedings

(8) Any other proceedings on the Bill may be programmed.—(Stephen Morgan.)

Question agreed to.

Armed Forces Bill: Money

King’s recommendation signified.

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 52(1)(a)),

That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Armed Forces Bill, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of money provided by Parliament of:

(a) any expenditure incurred under or by virtue of the Act by a Minister of the Crown or the Defence Council, and

(b) any increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable under or by virtue of any other Act out of money so provided.—(Stephen Morgan.)

Question agreed to.

Ajax Programme

Al Carns Excerpts

Wednesday 14th January 2026 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Stuart. I am grateful to the hon. and gallant Member for Huntingdon (Ben Obese-Jecty) for securing this debate.

It will not be lost on the audience that I am not the Minister of State for Defence Readiness and Industry, but I am a former Royal Marine with 24 years of service and now also the Minister responsible for the armed forces. I can assure hon. Members of this Government’s commitment to the safety of our service personnel. That is absolutely paramount. It underpins a bond of trust between all MOD activity and the Government, and it is a vital strand of our responsibility to ensure that our service personnel are provided with the correct equipment that is safe, but also reliable and effective.

That is why Ministers were so alarmed by the symptoms reported by 35 soldiers who operated Ajax vehicles during November’s exercise Titan Storm. I can update Members that of those 35 people, nine are now back to normal duties, two were found to be suffering from symptoms unrelated to Ajax and the remaining 24 continue to be monitored by our medical services, primarily for hearing and vibration. We will ensure that they receive all necessary support as they progress. I can also confirm that the Minister for Defence Readiness and Industry, my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard), alongside the Chief of the General Staff, will visit affected units and speak to affected soldiers later this week, having written to them at the end of the year.

Exercise Titan Storm represented the latest chapter in a programme that has been well documented by parliamentary Committees and independent MOD reports. Ajax was approved in 2014 with a date for initial operating capability of 2020. Today, after significant delays, just over 180 vehicles have been delivered. The symptoms reported by some of our soldiers operating Ajax during Exercise Titan Storm have led to four separate, rigorous investigations. The Minister for Defence Readiness and Industry plans to further update the House on this matter next week, so hon. Members will understand that I may leave some of the specific questions—including the 37 from the hon. Member for Huntingdon; on average, one a minute—for that Minister to answer in detail.

Along with the investigations into the vehicles by the Defence Accident Investigation Branch and the Army safety investigation team, which were set out to Parliament by the Minister for Defence Readiness and Industry on 8 December, a ministerial-led review into the implementation of previous recommendations has also been commissioned. It focuses on the basis of written assurances given to Ministers ahead of the announcement of initial operating capability in November. As set out in his written ministerial statement on 18 December, the Minister for Defence Readiness and Industry subsequently also directed a pause on all Ajax trials to allow for an investigation into a second safety incident reported during a trial at Bovington on 12 December.

Each of the 23 affected vehicles have now undergone 45-point inspections, with further instrumental testing, including for noise and vibration, taking place literally as we speak. In that incident, the affected soldier received medical support and did not require hospitalisation. The vehicle involved was not one of the 23 from Exercise Titan Storm; it was a separate vehicle being used to establish a safety baseline for comparison. I can confirm that that soldier has now returned to duty with no issues whatsoever, and that discussions are ongoing between the Minister for Defence Readiness and Industry and officials within the Department on appropriate next steps regarding the potential restart of those trials.

As many of my Welsh colleagues have pointed out, the Ajax vehicles are built in Merthyr Tydfil to support a UK-wide supply chain of more than 230 companies and over 4,100 jobs. Because of the importance of the programme to south Wales, Ministers have been in close contact with the Welsh Government; the Minister for Defence Readiness and Industry met the Welsh Economy Minister, Rebecca Evans on 15 December.

As I mentioned earlier, because previous investigations and adjustments should have fixed the recent challenges to the programme, the Minister for Defence Readiness and Industry has put in place a ministerial-led review that will assess how the Department has implemented the recommendations of previous reviews, and suggest improvements to the process of providing timely and accurate information to Ministers. To ensure the independence and rigour of that process, that review is conducted by experts who are not part of the Ajax programme. Ministers, the Chief of the General Staff and officials are also working closely with General Dynamics to resolve the issues, and will continue to do so. Most recently, at ministerial level, the Minister for Defence Readiness and Industry met senior managers from General Dynamics on 9 December. He plans to meet them again next week, and has future plans that are in train to meet the workforce again.

It is important that each of the investigation teams are given the time and space required to get to the bottom of the recent incidents, and past failures, so that we can take the most appropriate and accountable next steps. I want to be clear that there is no predetermined outcome. Ministers will be led by the facts and all options are absolutely on the table. As the Defence Secretary has said of this programme, we must either back it or indeed scrap it.

[Stuart Anderson]

When or if trials resume, what assurances will we get that no future British troops will be put in harm’s way by testing Ajax?

[Al Carns]

I can assure the hon. Member—and I note his background—that the safety of our armed forces will be the No. 1 priority when we commence those trials. That has to be the baseline common denominator as we move forward. I reiterate that the Defence Secretary said that we must back it or scrap it; the evidence will allow us to make that decision.

I will cover off some of the 37 questions that were asked earlier. When we talk about initial operating capability, there is a slight dichotomy. We mentioned a perceived rush to IOC for Ajax on the one hand; on the other hand, collectively hon. Members are asking why Boxer’s IOC is moving. It cannot be one or t’other. We have got to allow the teams and experts to ensure that IOC is met in the safest possible manner and that any lessons from Ajax are pulled across into the Boxer programme and other big capability programmes, as has been mentioned by some hon. Members, so that we can understand and learn from them.

We are also, in some cases, our own worst enemy—we have had over 1,000 capability requirement changes throughout the programme. As we change the capability, the platform changes, the cost changes and the time-trialling system changes, and we need to reduce that as we move forward with major capabilities. The Minister for Defence Readiness and Industry will update the House in due course, covering things such as capability changes and requirements and how many noise vibration issues there were in Titan Storm, and he will answer the rest of the multitude of very detailed questions that were asked earlier today.

On British military doctrine, it is really important to recognise that Ukraine is changing the whole character of conflict and how we fight. Terms such as armoured recce, ranges of gun systems and the reason why we built the tank in the first place—to carry a gun and to deliver firepower at pace—are changing because of the development of technology. We are wrestling with a whole set of capability changes, which are changing the character of conflict. We must not learn false lessons from Ukraine but pull the most effective ones and draw them into our capability programmes that in some cases were set in place 10 to 15 years ago. It is a very complex system of moving forward, but I can assure Members that we are learning those lessons from Ukraine and trying to incorporate them as best we can into the current programmes. What I would say is that Ajax started in 2014, and we have had 10 years of progress, but also a huge amount of mistakes. Those lessons will be pulled across into Boxer.

My hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Aberdare (Gerald Jones) outlined the invaluable skills and capability of the staff that have actually created these systems, and some of the capabilities that they have brough to bear are absolutely second to none. The Minister for Defence Readiness and Industry will report next week, and he is more than happy to meet both union and industry visitors in due course.

The hon. Member for Weald of Kent (Katie Lam) highlighted some issues with the direct threat to our armed forces that the capability may present. What I would say is: allow the facts to do the talking, allow the review to come out next week, allow the report to be presented to the House, and then let us work out whether this capability can actually add value, whether it is in the armoured recce space or armoured infantry roles and so on. From my perspective, it is important to allow the facts and the honesty of the review to pull through.

I express my gratitude once again to the hon. and gallant Member for Huntingdon for introducing the debate and to all Members for their continued attention to Ajax programme. I trust that we have collectively been clear about where we stand on this. Multiple investigations are under way. All Ajax activity—training, exercise and trials—has been paused until these investigations are complete. Ministers will receive findings in the coming weeks, and all options remain on the table.

Importantly—it has been mentioned multiple times, and I have been at the bottom of the food chain in the military as well—I thank Alfie and Fill Your Boots; I thank the men and the officers for highlighting these concerns and speaking truth to power; and I thank the armed forces collectively for working collaboratively with us to come to an amenable solution that gives them the capability that they deserve.

Arctic and High North

Al Carns Excerpts

Tuesday 13th January 2026 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)]

It is a delight to speak under your chairmanship, Ms Vaz. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and Dollar (Graeme Downie) for securing this debate and for all his work as chair of the Labour back-bench defence committee. In an article published last week, he stressed the critical importance, in these volatile times, of strengthening the UK’s armed forces, preparing for the possibility of war and showing that although we do not want conflict, we are ready to fight to defend our freedoms and indeed our prosperity. He is absolutely correct and is speaking about an area with which he is all too familiar.

Geography really matters. Some members of the SNP may not be interested in defence, but, given Scotland’s geographical position, our adversaries are interested in Scotland because of what it offers to the UK, Europe and NATO defence.

[Mr Angus MacDonald]

Given that one of the UK’s core NATO responsibilities is securing freedom of operation in the GIUK gap, can the Minister reflect on what an SNP-led independent Scotland would mean for that task? At a time when hostile states exploit political fragmentation, does he agree that a party that opposes the nuclear deterrent, has turned away defence-related industrial investment in the Clyde and has even restricted medical aid to Ukrainian soldiers by classifying it as military support would weaken rather than strengthen our collective resilience in the High North?

[Al Carns]

The reality is that this is not about politics. This is about sincerity around our national security decisions. An independent Scotland would weaken not just the security of the UK—of Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland—but the whole European security architecture and NATO as a whole. At this point in time, a worse decision could not possibly even be fathomed.

Some comments were made earlier about whether we have a frontline with Russia. The reality is that we do. As my hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and Dollar mentioned, it sits in the north Atlantic. When it comes to being scared of Russia, last time I checked the military dictionary, that word definitely did not exist. If someone from industry sees a Russian frigate or submarine near the CNI, I can guarantee that there will be a Royal Navy, NATO or European submarine or frigate very close by.

Although much of the current attention is focused on Ukraine, being ready to fight means being alert to every danger. We must continue working ever more closely with our allies to address emerging threats wherever they may arise. Today’s debate is a welcome opportunity to discuss a part of the world that is becoming increasingly contested by the major powers.

Having been largely inaccessible to navies in the past, the High North and Arctic are changing at an unprecedented and accelerating rate. Global warming is transforming the Arctic from frozen expanses to a 21st-century geopolitical hotspot. As melting ice opens up new sea routes, the established security balance across the top of the world will be fundamentally reshaped forever. Routes between the Atlantic and Pacific will become increasingly navigable for more of the year, bringing the continents of Asia, Europe and North America closer than ever before.

Competition to exploit the region’s valuable natural resources is growing, too. China is extending its activity in the Arctic, having recently sent more icebreakers and research vessels to probe its expanses and declaring itself a near-Arctic state. We are under no illusion about how the changing Arctic environment poses new challenges, both commercially and militarily.

Russia remains the most acute danger to the security of the northern near Atlantic, and its operations within a more navigable Arctic are an increasing part of that threat. It is sobering to realise that Vladimir Putin controls more than half of the entire Arctic’s coastline. The increased militarisation of Russia’s Arctic territory, including investment in bases and air and coastal defence capabilities, is of increasing concern. For example, Russia has established a new northern joint strategic command, reopening cold war-era bases above the Arctic circle, including a fully operational base on Franz Josef island and another on Kotelny island.

In the north Atlantic, Russian submarine activity is nearing the highest levels since the cold war. Changes in the region directly impact us and our security here in the UK, as one of the Arctic’s nearest neighbours—whether it is from increasing threats or damage to subsea electricity or telecommunication cables in the Baltic sea or from the increase in Russian activity in the key Greenland-Iceland-UK gap involving surface and sub-surface vessels and aircraft.

[Anna Gelderd (South East Cornwall) (Lab)]

As climate change opens new routes and access to resources, and as we are one of the Arctic’s closest neighbours, how are the Government working with allies to strengthen our collective security in the region in the face of climate change to ensure that the UK is able to protect our long-term interests alongside other partners from non-Arctic states?

[Al Carns]

As my hon. Friend will know, we have various multilateral treaties, including working with the JEF and NATO to ensure that any implications from global warming are carefully considered and that security recommendations are put in place to deal with them should they arise.

NATO has made it clear that defence of the High North is a key strategic imperative. The addition of Sweden and Finland to the alliance has significantly strengthened NATO’s hand in the region. Indeed, Nordic countries have spent decades managing Moscow’s interests in the High North, and they bring valuable experience to help counter the threat that Putin’s forces present today. As part of the UK-led joint expeditionary force, we are working alongside them to enhance collective security across Northern Europe.

We have assets across all three main services and interoperability with our allies that can project force deep into the High North. For example, a recent agreement between Britain and Norway will see our commando forces, led by the Royal Marines, operating in Norway all year round to defend NATO’s northern flank. They will take part in Exercise Cold Response, the largest military exercise in Norway this year, with a 40% increase in Royal Marine activity. I know the exercise well: in 2022, I took part in it as the chief of staff of the UK strike force, operating a multinational fleet, dozens of ships, aircraft and thousands of forces across the Arctic. I spent time during my 24 years—many of it unhappy, in a snowhole—in the Arctic as part of the Royal Marines, as a mountain leader.

We train hard for those operations in the Arctic. We have some of the best troops in the world, and we work exceptionally hard with Norway and Sweden and with Finnish forces. What is more, we have established the littoral maritime response force, with dedicated personnel, ships and helicopters operating in the High North. We have bought new generation anti-submarine frigates, have just completed a huge deal with the Norwegians to ensure interoperability across the Type 26 fleet, and have launched the groundbreaking Atlantic Bastion programme to protect the UK from Russian undersea threats. It is all part of widespread and regular operations involving our armed forces to maintain operational readiness across northern Europe.

The MOD keeps Russia’s military posture in the region under continuous review and conducts wider strategic monitoring with our allies. Of course, we recognise that Russia is an Arctic state with a legitimate presence, but we have to be clear that we will protect, and if necessary assert, our rights to safeguard security and international law. That includes honouring the integrity—

[John Slinger (Rugby) (Lab)]

I too was at the meeting of the APPG for Greenland, in a room nearby where we heard from Greenland’s Minister for business, mineral resources, energy, justice and gender equality. In addition to my hon. Friend’s important points about the military strength and prowess of this country and others, and about our alliances, does he agree that we need to send a very strong message about international law and the international rules-based system? That would give reassurance to the High North and Arctic countries, particularly Greenland, at this moment.

[Al Carns]

I completely agree. I think our Prime Minister has done exactly that, but the only people to decide the future of Greenland are those in Greenland, and NATO as a whole provides a collective security agreement for Greenland and other countries in the High North.

We cannot be naive about the challenges that we face. For example, the threat of damage to subsea electricity and telecommunications cables is an ongoing concern and underlines the importance of really close collaboration and interoperability with our European partners. Very simply, there can be no global security without security across the Arctic and northern Europe.

Let me move on to the points about Greenland. The past few weeks have seen an increasing focus on Greenland in the context of Arctic security, but the UK has been absolutely and utterly clear: the future of Greenland is a matter for the Greenlanders and the Danes, and no one else. Greenland, Denmark and the United States have worked closely since the second world war to ensure that this key territory is protected from various aggressors. That will always continue. Security in the Arctic must therefore be achieved collectively with NATO allies, including the United States, by upholding the principles of the UN charter—

[Valerie Vaz (in the Chair)]

Order.

--- Later in debate ---

On resuming—

[Al Carns]

Security in the Arctic must be achieved collectively, with NATO allies including the United States, by upholding the principles of the UN charter on sovereignty, territorial integrity and the inviolability of borders. These are universal principles and we will always defend them.

It is worth noting that we completed Exercise Tarassis, one of the biggest exercises in the High North, late last year. The next set of exercises in the High North is known as Lion Protector. We have a JEF chiefs of defence meeting coming up at the end of this week. Cold Response will take place, and is already under way, with a 40% increase in the Royal Marines deployed in the High North. They will be there all year round.

The RAF continues to patrol in the High North with various types of aircraft. Some bilateral outstanding agreements, such as the Lunna House agreement, have established interoperability like never before across our naval forces, particularly with Norway.

[Dr Al Pinkerton (Surrey Heath) (LD)]

Prior to our brief interruption, the Minister described a part of the world that is undergoing considerable change and turbulence, not least from climate change. Will he reflect on how UK procurement and military doctrine might have to go to a similar scale and rapidity of change in order to respond to, and reflect, the challenges of an increasingly liquified Arctic that is no longer in a frozen state?

[Al Carns]

For a long time during the cold war, a large proportion of our time was predisposed to looking to the high north-east and north-west in the Atlantic and the High North. It is a case of relearning some of our old lessons, and ensuring that our capability and technological mix is adapted into our doctrine, training tactics and procedures. For example, some of the work now going on in Exercise Cold Response is not necessarily about training; it is about actual mission set planning to prepare for the worst-case scenario, and that is how we are seeing it evolve through time. That will continue through the Lunna House agreement and various agreements we have with Sweden and Finland as part of the NATO alliance, so it will continue to get stronger. Importantly, we will never forget the JEF either, which is a super-important geopolitical alliance.

Politically and environmentally, the Arctic is in absolute flux. Rising temperatures are remoulding landscapes and turning centuries of certainty on their head. As the region grows increasingly contested, it is more important than ever for Britain to collaborate with like-minded states to uphold international law and strengthen our collective security. That is precisely what we are doing. We are working intensely with our partners to monitor threats, bolster our forces and stand up for our interests. As we boost defence spending to 5% of GDP over the next decade, protecting the stability and security of the High North and Arctic will be integral to our plans. That is how we will keep Britain secure at home and strong abroad.

Question put and agreed to.

Northern Ireland Troubles Bill: Armed Forces Recruitment and Retention

Al Carns Excerpts

Monday 5th January 2026 Commons Chamber

[James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con)]

(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the impact of the Northern Ireland Troubles Bill on armed forces recruitment and retention.

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)]

This Labour Government are committed to renewing the contract with those who serve, and our commitment is reflected in our actions. That is why we have given our armed forces the largest pay rise in 20 years, committed to invest £9 billion to fix forces homes, scrapped 100 out-of-date medical policies for entry standards, and created novel ways of entry including our new gap year scheme and a cyber direct entry pathway with its first cohort graduating in November. It is also why, at Christmas, this Government funded travel for up to 35,000 service personnel to be with their families over the festive period.

The Government’s actions are having an effect. On recruitment, inflow continues to improve and is up 13% this year compared with September 2024. Applications to join the armed forces and intakes to basic training both continue to remain high. On retention, under the Conservatives morale had been falling year on year, with more people leaving than joining; we have started to reverse that decline with an 8% reduction in outflow this year compared with September 2024.

The question refers to the impact of the troubles Bill. The Government have brought forward the troubles Bill to effectively and legally deal with the legacy of the troubles in Northern Ireland. The complexity of dealing with this issue is not lost on me. The reality is that the previous Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023 did not have unfaltering support, and we are focused on navigating a workable route through this incredibly emotive and difficult topic in a fair and proportionate manner.

The military cohorts most impacted by legacy processes are those at the very tip of the spear. There is no evidence to suggest that this Bill has had an impact on their recruitment or indeed retention. The House will understand that we do not comment on matters of special forces, but let me echo what the Defence Secretary has said directly to the community: we have your back. I am assured in my interactions with those in the command of, or serving in, our special forces that they continue to deliver at the very front edge of the nation’s effort to counter the threats that we and the UK face. I say to them: you have my support and this Government’s unequivocal support.

The Government owe all those who served in defence of peace during the troubles an immense debt of gratitude. We understand the immense psychological toll that legacy proceedings can have and the concerns of the veterans community. We are working closely with representatives of veterans and the armed forces community to understand their concerns and ensure that this Bill meets their need. But to link recruitment and retention with the Northern Ireland legacy Bill is incorrect.

[James Cartlidge]

Our legacy Act ensured that those who served bravely in Northern Ireland could sleep soundly in their beds at night, knowing that they would not be hauled before the courts for protecting all of us from terrorism decades ago. But when our Act was challenged in the courts, instead of appealing, Labour immediately caved and is now scrapping those protections. This will reopen cases, such as Loughgall, from 1987, when IRA members were shot while mounting a bomb attack on a police station, having fired first on the Army.

Loughgall involved 24 SAS soldiers, so it is no wonder that on 30 December, seven senior former SAS officers wrote an extraordinary letter stating:

“Commanders now hesitate, fearing years of litigation. Troops feel abandoned…This self-sabotage needs no foreign hand…In this Troubles Bill, the Government is complicit in this war on our Armed Forces.”

The Minister knows the operational importance of special forces as much as anyone. Does he recognise the huge hit to morale if cases like Loughgall are restarted because of the troubles Bill?

Of course, the Government will say that we need the troubles Bill to pursue unsolved IRA crimes, but as the Prime Minister’s own appointed Northern Ireland Veterans Commissioner David Johnstone warned last week, soldiers may be dragged before the courts, but IRA terrorists walk free because the weapons they used were decommissioned without forensic testing. Was the commissioner not right to say that veterans are treated “worse than terrorists”? Furthermore, last October the Government said that the troubles Bill would contain protections specifically for veterans. Will the Minister confirm that all the protections in the Bill also apply to terrorists?

In November, eight retired four-star generals and an air chief marshal described the troubles Bill as a

“direct threat to national security”.

The letter from seven former SAS officers said that they

“are not asking for immunity; they simply want fair procedures and decisive political leadership”.

With the threats that we face and the need to maximise recruitment and retention, can the Minister show decisive political leadership of his own and scrap the troubles Bill?

[Al Carns]

As the shadow Defence Secretary has raised a question about recruitment and retention, it is important that we look at the record of his own Government. Military morale fell to record lows under his Government, with just four in 10 personnel in the UK armed forces satisfied with service life; satisfaction fell from 60% to 40% in 2024. Is that surprising when there were real-terms pay cuts in nine out of the 14 years that the Conservatives were in power and over 13,000 housing complaints in a single year? I will not be lectured by the hon. Gentleman on this issue.

I would suggest that to mention that I have an insight into the operational imperative of our forces, as the tip of the spear, is a slight underestimation. I would argue that there are several people in this House who would understand that, including one who is stood here and another on the Opposition Benches. We have been left with a mess and our Northern Ireland veterans were in a legal wild west because of what the Conservatives did with the last legacy Act. No party in Northern Ireland agreed with that Act or supported it, so we had to sort that out—this Government will not allow that situation to continue.

Let me be very clear: we are listening. We have spoken to the Royal British Legion and other associations. I speak to military cohorts on a weekly, if not daily, basis and I speak to the Northern Ireland Veterans Commissioner almost every day. We are working collaboratively and collectively to ensure that the Bill is fit for purpose, that it protects the individuals, that the process does not become the punishment for those individuals, and that we do not allow any terrorist organisation to rewrite history through the courts.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)]

I call the Chair of the Defence Committee.

[Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab)]

It is clear that the previous solution, the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023, was opposed by all the political parties in Northern Ireland. It was found to be unlawful by our courts, and therefore it needed to be replaced. It is also clear that the solution to this complex issue must provide justice, be legal, and ensure that our veterans feel that they have been protected and their service has been celebrated. Can the Minister confirm that nobody who perpetrated terrorist atrocities during the troubles will be given immunity? How exactly will the Government protect veterans from repeated investigations?

[Al Carns]

I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. The reality is that the last Act was opposed by every part of the Northern Ireland system, groups across the military and civilians in Northern Ireland. It left our veterans in a legal wild west. The honest answer is that our military will always adhere to the law, and to the highest levels of the law. The new Bill allows us to protect this cohort, so that the legal process does not become a punishment, and importantly ensures that individuals cannot rewrite history. For the first time, we will have protections in place to support our veterans, and we will protect them from repeated investigations. There will be a legal duty to consider our veterans’ welfare, and we will ensure that no veteran has to attend proceedings or go to Northern Ireland; they can give evidence from home. These protections for our veterans have been designed by veterans, through discussions with me and various people across the Ministry of Defence.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)]

I call the Liberal Democrat spokesperson.

[James MacCleary (Lewes) (LD)]

The Liberal Democrats are clear that the Conservatives’ Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023 failed victims, survivors and veterans alike by removing legal avenues to justice and eroding public trust. Elements of the Government’s new Bill are welcome, particularly the desire to move towards reconciliation and information recovery, but those aims cannot come at the expense of justice and fairness, or the rights of those who served. Our concern is not to shield wrongdoing; it is to ensure fairness for those who acted within the law as it stood at the time. Veterans must not be left exposed to uncertainty or retrospective judgment, and without clear legal protection.

Recruitment and retention is already an acknowledged challenge for our armed forces. Given the flaws in the Bill, an impact in this area could only further the case against it. What steps is the Minister taking to protect personnel who served during the troubles who followed the laws of the day? Given the extreme concern across the armed forces community about the impact that this legislation could have, will he consider halting the Bill, and replacing it with one that puts veterans at its heart?

[Al Carns]

I have been really clear: I have been working with veterans across the whole UK, with Northern Ireland and with the commissioners to ensure that the protections that we put in place are written into legislation and are well thought-through, so that the process does not become the punishment. People have said in Northern Ireland that the prospects of prosecution are vanishingly small. We must also ensure that other groups, such as families who lost loved ones in the troubles, get truth, reconciliation and justice, but in doing so, we must absolutely protect our veterans. We will put six protections in place; we will get five of them straight into the Bill, and written into law. We are working through the sixth one, a protocol to ensure no cold calling. It will ensure that anybody who is required to give evidence remotely, rather than by going to Northern Ireland, is engaged with by either the MOD or a regimental association. The main aim of involving our veterans was for them to help me articulate how we can stop this process from being wielded as a punishment against those who served our country so valiantly and honourably in Northern Ireland.

[Alex Ballinger (Halesowen) (Lab)]

The Minister has been too modest; he mentioned the September figures for the increase in recruitment, but the December figures were released just a couple of days ago, and they show a 20% increase in recruitment to the armed forces over the last year. Some 2,170 additional personnel were recruited in the year before. Despite the accusations from the Conservatives, might that be because of the two above-inflation pay rises that this Government have granted our personnel? Might it be because of the £9 billion increase for armed forces housing, after it was left in a decrepit state by the last Government? Might it be because of the 2.6% of GDP that we are investing in the military? That figure was never reached in the 14 years of the last Conservative Government.

[Al Carns]

I thank my hon. Friend for his list. This Government have come into power and put in place a very clear, concise programme to increase recruitment and retention. There is a list: there is the armed forces discovery scheme, zig-zag careers, and the cyber direct entry scheme; the first cohort graduated in November ’25. We are scrapping a huge amount of red tape left by the last Government. If somebody had athlete’s foot as a child, they could not join the military, and people needed multiple sets of medical records. That was ridiculous. We also have financial retention incentives. [Interruption.] Individuals on the Conservative Benches can say that they know, but they did nothing about it; I lived it. We have done a single living accommodation review, and we have a Christmas travel payment. [Interruption.] There are great comments coming from the Opposition, but they did nothing about it. We have done it, and as a result we see a 13% increase in recruitment, and a reduction in outflow by 8% for the first time in 14 years.

[Lincoln Jopp (Spelthorne) (Con)]

As the shadow Defence Secretary was reading out the letter from the squadron leaders and warrant officers that was published over the Christmas break, I looked across the Chamber, and was very surprised to see the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and two Defence Ministers shaking their head. We have had feedback from numerous generals, squadron commanders and warrant officers, so can I just understand where the Minister is coming from? Why does he think he is right and they are wrong?

[Al Carns]

I fully respect the hon. and gallant Member; he has experience from Northern Ireland during the troubles. I served in Northern Ireland in 2003, after the troubles. We absolutely respect those individuals’ views; we also respect the statistics on those who are currently serving, which we have looked through in the Ministry of Defence. I would welcome a discussion with many of the individuals who the hon. and gallant Member mentioned. Since some of the articles came out in the press, I have had discussions, multiple times, with several of them. We need to work together to make sure they are comfortable with the Bill, and we are doing so. On top of that, we have spoken to the Royal British Legion and other veterans, but when we come down to the common denominator, the statistics show that there is not a recruitment and retention issue caused by the Northern Ireland legacy Bill. As Members well know, the moral, physical and conceptual components are critical to fighting power, but in some cases, the conceptual and moral components are one. We must ensure that the Bill protects veterans going forward, which is what I will do. We will protect the moral component.

[Peter Swallow (Bracknell) (Lab)]

Will my hon. and gallant Friend take this opportunity to welcome the 156 new recruits who started last week at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst in my constituency? Those new recruits put the academy well on track to meet its recruitment targets for this year.

[Al Carns]

I thank my hon. Friend for making that point. In this role and in my last role, I have visited Sandhurst several times; it is the best leadership academy in the country, and its “Serve to lead” motto is absolutely essential. I am sure that the 156 cadets who have just started will progress and graduate with flying colours. I look forward to them serving in the military, and enjoying their service throughout a full and wholesome career.

[David Davis (Goole and Pocklington) (Con)]

The Minister has said that veterans will have Government support. I am sure that is what he intends, but the hard reality is that the Bill that he is defending will lead to coroner’s court inquiries into decisions taken in a fraction of a second, 40 years ago. The best way to look at that issue is to look at what has already happened, as described by the senior judge who oversaw the judicial review of the Coagh inquiry:

“In this challenge, this Court is being asked to slow the passage of time down, to analyse events in freeze-frame and to address the issue of absolute necessity in slow-motion…It is ludicrous to suggest that this court should analyse the events of the day in question in that manner”,

but that is what will happen with Loughgall and all the other issues that will come before the courts, and our brave and honourable soldiers will be humiliated through that process. That is why the process is the punishment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Al Carns]

I thank the right hon. Member for his comments. The reality is that 90% of all casualties in Northern Ireland were caused by terrorists, and it is not lost on me that that context is often lost in today’s society. That is why it is essential that we ensure that the individuals holding the inquests, and indeed the legacy commission, have the best operational context and advice as inquests progress. As the Clonoe inquest showed, if we do not agree with the findings, we will judicially review them—that is what I did in the case of Clonoe, and we will do it again if we need to. We must prevent the process from becoming a punishment, and looking back retrospectively on Clonoe, I think that advice from an individual who understood the operational context, the tactical detail and the strategic outputs that were to have been delivered would have led to a different conclusion being reached.

[Jonathan Davies (Mid Derbyshire) (Lab)]

This Government have a very strong story to tell when it comes to recruitment and retention in defence, whether that is about investing in homes for our forces people, providing free travel over Christmas, or delivering a 6% pay rise last year and a 4.5% pay rise this year. I know that those efforts are working, because one of my staff, Archie Butler-Gallie, will be leaving shortly to go to Sandhurst—I am sure that colleagues from across the House will want to congratulate him on that. What further steps can the Minister take to ensure that our armed forces are an attractive career for young people, as well as those changing jobs?

I also welcome what the Minister has said about the Northern Ireland element of this issue. I urge him—as I know he is doing—to leave no stone unturned in ensuring that inequitable or vexatious prosecutions are not brought against our forces personnel.

[Al Carns]

First of all, there are no vexatious prosecutions. I would also say that if you want to see the world, work with some of the best people in the world, have an adventure and get trained in leadership, by all means join any one of our officer academies, or go to one of our recruitment centres. It is the best career anyone could possibly ask for, and I do not regret any day—maybe one—of my 24 years in Her Majesty’s armed forces.

[Sir Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield) (Con)]

Have there not already been numerous investigations and inquiries, and while old wounds are being reopened, is it not the case that little new evidence is emerging? The Minister, who is my parliamentary neighbour, is a most distinguished soldier. Surely he must be concerned that the circumstantial evidence about the impact on the health and wellbeing of veterans is clearly impacting morale, retention and recruitment elsewhere.

[Al Carns]

I thank the right hon. Member for his question. Of the 300,000 veterans who served in Northern Ireland, among whom I include myself, this will affect a small number, but we must not allow that to be an excuse not to put in place the most well-thought-through and legislatively sound protections. One of those protections is a legal duty to consider veterans’ welfare, so that individuals who are suffering from physical or mental issues because of their service in Northern Ireland do not get dragged back through the system. That is linked to the measures on giving evidence from home, which will ensure that no one needs to return to an area where they may have had distressing or psychologically impactful moments.

[Catherine Atkinson (Derby North) (Lab)]

This Christmas, the Government funded travel for up to 35,000 service personnel—including over 2,000 from the east midlands—so that they could be with their family over the festive period. My husband served in Afghanistan, so I know how much it means to have those moments with loved ones. Does the Minister agree that that kind of support demonstrates that our Labour Government are on the side of our armed forces?

[Al Carns]

I thank my hon. Friend for her point, and I thank her husband for his service—we do not say that enough in this country, and I think we should say it more. The previous Government focused on ships, bombs, bullets, guns and rifles, but they did not focus enough on the key asset of our armed forces, which is our people. We are doing that now, including through a comprehensive messaging campaign around the policies that have been put in place to increase recruitment and retention, and we are seeing a statistical change in recruitment and retention because of that—there has been a 30% increase, and an 8% reduction in outflow. That is a fantastic change. We have much more to do, but this Government are heading in the right direction, and we are going to do much more over the years to come.

[Stuart Anderson (South Shropshire) (Con)]

On a serious note, on this work towards retention and recruitment, I have not found one person in my entire military network—those I served with during the troubles and after—who supports the Bill. I welcome the rise in recruitment—one of those recruits is my son, which is great to see—but can the Minister confirm whether anyone serving in the senior chain of command has said that the Bill is a potential obstacle to operational capability or future retention and recruitment?

[Al Carns]

I thank the hon. and gallant Member for his comments, and also for his service. Nobody in the senior command has raised the Bill with me in relation to recruitment and retention.

[Emily Darlington (Milton Keynes Central) (Lab)]

I thank my hon. and gallant Friend the Minister for his service—we should thank people for their service more often. I had the pleasure of being part of the armed forces parliamentary scheme, through which we got to visit a training academy and see the cadets. It was a fantastic experience, but when we talked to the people on the estate, they said that two things were limiting the number of young people who could be part of the programme. The first was the number of people who were able to act as trainers, and the second was the facilities. What is the Minister doing to address those two concerns, at a time when so many people are responding to the Spotify adverts and signing up to be part of our armed forces?

[Al Carns]

We have a huge amount of people wanting to join the armed forces. The problem is that the processes we inherited with the old recruitment scheme are out of date and need to be renewed. That is being put in place now. We have reduced more than 100 outdated medical requirements and we are refining the processes. We have created a digital ability to get hold of GP records, which is reducing the time of flight from an individual putting in their application to the point where they join. As a result, we are seeing an increase. We are focusing on people, we are raising morale and we are moving the system forward.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

The Northern Ireland Veterans Commissioner has said that this legislation will mean that those who serve in the armed forces are treated worse than terrorists. Former commanders have said that it will affect recruitment and retention and leave soldiers in fear of legal action. Does the Minister not recognise that by giving in to the IRA’s demand for the ability to rewrite the history of the troubles, it is leading to the situation where soldiers will be dragged through the courts in their old age? Should his message to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland not be, “Your job is to stand up for those who served in Northern Ireland and not to kowtow to the IRA, Sinn Féin and the Irish Government”?

[Al Carns]

This is not giving into the IRA’s demands in any way, shape or form; this is about truth, justice and reconciliation. It is about taking those three different groups of people—veterans; the families of those who have lost loved ones, who could be civilians or members of the PSNI or the RUC; and, families who have lost loved ones because of military action—and ensuring that we navigate the process to get to truth, justice and reconciliation. The right hon. Member knows better than me the difficulties of Northern Ireland politics. My job, as the ex-Veterans Minister and now the Armed Forces Minister, is to ensure that veterans are protected 100% as we move through that process, and that is what I am determined to set out to do.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

Happy new year, Madam Deputy Speaker. The French Government have recognised the legal jeopardy that my hon. Friend the Member for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge) has described, and they have legislated to protect their servicemen and women and veterans accordingly. That is contained within their recently published manual on military operational law—all 353 pages of it—which I recommend to the Minister. Why can the French do that for their people, while this Government are doing completely the reverse?

[Al Carns]

I fundamentally disagree. We hold our British forces, whether it be the Army, the Navy or the Air Force, to the highest legal standard. We always will, and it is what separates us from terrorists or dictatorships. I would be interested to read the French document so that we could have a discussion offline and see whether there is any applicability to how we run things.

[Mr Paul Kohler (Wimbledon) (LD)]

I am supportive of the Government’s desire to move beyond the Tories’ failed legacy Act, provided that the legitimate concerns of our veterans are met. However, I am not convinced that the Northern Ireland Office is even listening to, let alone acting upon, those concerns. Can the Minister tell the House what discussions he has had with the Northern Ireland Office to address veteran concerns? What would he say to veterans dissatisfied with the safeguards in the Bill?

[Al Carns]

For almost a year and a half now, I have been in constant discussion with various veterans groups, whether that is co-ordinated by the Royal British Legion or whether that is individuals from our intelligence community, our special forces community or the Parachute Regiment, all the way through to line infantry members in the Navy and the Air Force. I have been listening. We have designed these protections around what they have said. We are reinforcing that into legislation, and my office is in daily contact with the Northern Ireland Office to ensure that we shore up those protections collaboratively and come out with the best possible way to get to truth, reconciliation and justice across all three different groups within Northern Ireland.

[John Cooper (Dumfries and Galloway) (Con)]

America’s Delta Force has been involved in an incredible feat of arms in Caracas over the weekend. Of course, Delta Force is based on the 22 SAS regiment. Its formation came after Charles Beckwith served with the SAS. When the SAS speaks, it is usually listened to. The Minister has told us today that he has spoken to individuals from the SAS who signed the letter saying that this Bill is not fit for purpose. Have they changed their position?

[Al Carns]

I have spoken to several of the generals who have raised these concerns. I have spoken to the associations connected to a variety of organisations across the group, and I have spoken to active members of those organisations to ensure that statistics are communicated effectively and people are representing what is and what is not happening. It is not lost on me that Delta Force was shaped off the SAS. It is not lost on me that forces at the tip of the spear are essential to all the security that we enjoy. We have got to protect them. We have got to ensure that we give them the correct capability and protections as we move forward, and that is what I will do.

[Jim Allister (North Antrim) (TUV)]

Special forces operations inescapably involve split-second decisions and walk a very fine line. If those operatives perceive that the Government do not have their back, is the Minister seriously saying that will not have an adverse effect on morale or recruitment?

[Al Carns]

It is clear that the Government have our armed forces’ back. I have just spelled out a whole list of recruitment and retention initiatives. Indeed, we have individuals with the most military experience sat within the Department in the political space. They understand the line that they walk—they have walked it several times across various different operational theatres—and understand it wholeheartedly.

[Ben Obese-Jecty (Huntingdon) (Con)]

Given the concerns that have been expressed about this Bill and protections for our veterans, what assessment has the Minister made of the forthcoming Haddon-Cave inquiry and the impact that could have on the retention of personnel, given the cohort of people affected are likely either still serving or are of the same era as veterans in this Chamber?

[Al Carns]

The Haddon-Cave inquiry is an independent inquiry established by the last Government, and we must allow that to continue. We are focused today on ensuring that the correct protections are in place and written into law to ensure that no veteran who served so valiantly in Northern Ireland has any concerns about the Northern Ireland legacy Bill as it progresses in terms of their involvement in that operational context.

[Chris Coghlan (Dorking and Horley) (LD)]

I thank the Minister for his engagement with the various associations, which I know is appreciated. I also welcome the improvement in recruitment. However, how are veterans meant to feel that there is anything other than persecution when incidents such as Loughgall—an exemplary SAS counter-terrorism operation—are granted a public inquiry, and incidents such as the 1987 IRA bombing of Enniskillen, which left 12 people dead and at least 60 people injured, are not?

[Al Carns]

The reality is that the last Government’s legacy Act made promises that could not be kept, and explaining why to our veterans community is exceptionally difficult, and I will not lie on that. On the same hand, we have been clear that inquests that were started by the last Government, but stopped—such as Loughgall in 2014—must continue and come to their rightful conclusion. We must ensure that throughout that process, all our veterans are protected as we progress.

[Dr Neil Shastri-Hurst (Solihull West and Shirley) (Con)]

The Minister has more experience than most with the global threats facing this country. In those circumstances, we need to be recruiting the brightest and best to our armed forces and retaining them. He has set out current retention levels with certain detail, but that is before the Bill passes through Parliament and, as the Government hope, becomes enacted as law. Does he not recognise that the inequality of arms under the legal system for our veterans is likely to have a significant impact upon retention?

[Al Carns]

This Government have an exceptional record on supporting our veterans. We put more money into veterans than any other Government in the past 10 years. We put £50 million into Valour. We have enhanced the Op Restore programme. Op Courage on mental health has now got £21 million and has rolled out. Our career transition partnership is second-to-none. On housing, we have got Op Fortitude. We have had 4,100 referrals and more than 1,000 veterans supported. We are doing a fantastic job for veterans. We must ensure that they are protected as we go forward.

[Sarah Pochin (Runcorn and Helsby) (Reform)]

With the risk of future prosecutions for simply following orders, would the Minister join the British Army today if he was a young man again making a career choice?

--- Later in debate ---

[Al Carns]

No, I would join the Royal Marines.

[Charlie Dewhirst (Bridlington and The Wolds) (Con)]

The Government’s troubles Bill contains no provisions to prevent former members of the IRA or other paramilitary groups from sitting on their proposed legacy commission. Northern Ireland veterans and victims are rightly outraged, so will the Minister use this opportunity to assure the House that the Government will table amendments ensuring that terrorists will not sit on that commission alongside the families of victims?

[Al Carns]

I have worked very closely with those in the Northern Ireland Office on this issue, and I will allow them to come up with the answer, but from our perspective the legacy commission as a whole has the most powers to review the evidence that has gone through. It will get to truth, reconciliation and justice better than any other organisation, which is why we are promoting pushing as much as we can through it to ensure that those three different groups of people in Northern Ireland get to that truth and reconciliation in the first place.

[Richard Foord (Honiton and Sidmouth) (LD)]

I carried out court martial duty while serving, and it gave me greater confidence in justice for accused serving personnel. Last week we learned that, as Prime Minister, Tony Blair supported the trial of British soldiers by court martial rather than by a civil court. When it was suggested that the case should go to a civil court, he annotated the proposal with the words, “It must not!” Can the Minister reassure civilians who are thinking about joining the armed forces that justice from a jury of a service person’s peers is worthy of their confidence?

[Al Carns]

In my last role, I had considerable dealings with the service justice system. I have been to visit the Defence Serious Crime Command and had a look at the victim support units that it has established, and I can say that since 2021 there has been a huge amount of revamping and rebuilding of the service justice system. It is fully fit for purpose, and it has my utter confidence.

[Esther McVey (Tatton) (Con)]

Seven former SAS officers say that troops feel abandoned by this Government’s legacy Bill. Given those comments, does the Minister believe that the Bill will incentivise the next generation to apply to serve in the armed forces, or, rather, that it will prevent the next generation from taking that career path, in the knowledge that they could be abandoned by a future Government, just like the troops who feel abandoned by this Government now?

[Al Carns]

There has been no impact on our special forces recruitment. The SAS is the tip of the spear, one of the best regiments in the world. It will continue to be so, and I have no doubt that it will continue to attract the very best of our armed forces to join and serve in its ranks.

[Blake Stephenson (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con)]

In response to the question from my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Spelthorne (Lincoln Jopp), the Minister said that he respected the views of the officers who had shared their concerns—so why does he think they are wrong?

--- Later in debate ---

[Al Carns]

I have 100% respect for the views of anyone who has served in our armed forces, and I am willing to sit down and talk through, in detail, any of the statistics that we have in the Ministry of Defence that would show that statistics do not necessarily justify some of the comments that were made. I am happy to discuss that with anyone, at any point.

[Robin Swann (South Antrim) (UUP)]

I welcome the steps taken by Ministers in their support for our armed forces, but may I caution them that the Northern Ireland Office’s troubles Bill has the potential to undo all that? The protections for veterans in the Bill are not specifically for veterans, no matter how they are packaged—and how weak it sounds to tell a Northern Ireland veteran who lives in Northern Ireland and served in Northern Ireland that he will not have to go to Northern Ireland to give evidence. The Minister has often cited the fact that no Northern Ireland party supported the last Government’s legislation. Can he tell me what Northern Ireland party currently supports the Bill as it is drafted, and if he cannot do so, will he pause and reflect?

[Al Carns]

The hon. Member knows better than I the difficulties of Northern Ireland politics. My role in this is to ensure that veterans are protected. I speak to the Northern Ireland Veterans Commissioner on a weekly basis for hours on end to make sure that we are defining, refining and implementing the correct protections for our veterans. Whether they served in Northern Ireland or were deployed to Northern Ireland from here on the mainland, from my perspective they are one and the same.

[Katie Lam (Weald of Kent) (Con)]

The relentless and malicious lawfare to which our brave Northern Ireland veterans have been subjected has exposed the fact that, in Britain, human rights laws can be used to attack those who have risked their lives for this country, not to protect them. The conditions in which soldiers and veterans are forced to live, even if they are accused with no evidence and no credibility, are inhumane. What will the Minister do about the situation, and if it cannot be resolved through the European Court of Human Rights and the Human Rights Act, will he call for them to be, respectively, left and repealed?

[Al Carns]

I have made it very clear that anyone who served in Northern Ireland, and indeed any veteran, will receive the full legal and welfare support of the Ministry of Defence. We saw that in the Soldier F case, and we will see it in any case that goes through. The full weight of the Ministry of Defence will be provided to protect veterans, in any way, shape or form, from vexatious claims or the lawfare to which the hon. Member has referred.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the hon. and gallant Gentleman for his answers. I ask him, with great respect, whether it is any wonder that recruitment is down when a Sinn Féin First Minister tells my right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) and my party to “butt out” of recent recruitment issues—paired with this Government’s support for our veterans in the context of Northern Ireland. Who in their right mind would sign up to be abandoned in the future for doing their job in order to give in to republicanism? Does the Minister acknowledge that the cost of the sale of our veterans may well be the defence capability of this great nation? He is an honourable man, and is much liked in the Chamber and, indeed, outside it, so will he take this opportunity to stop the rewriting of history and stand by our troops, past and present?

[Al Carns]

I thank the hon. Member for his—as always—well-thought-through contribution. We have made our perspective clear: we must protect our veterans from the process being wielded as a punishment, and we must also ensure that none of the terrorists who caused 90% of the casualties in Northern Ireland can rewrite history to suit their own narrative. We must not allow that to happen. Importantly, what underlines all this is that we must protect those who have protected us if this nation is to remain as great as it always has been.

Defence

Al Carns Excerpts

Thursday 18th December 2025 Written Corrections

[Ben Obese-Jecty (Huntingdon) (Con)]

Last week, the Minister for Defence Readiness and Industry told me:

“There are no other platforms within the Army’s armoured fleet which can fulfil the armoured reconnaissance role; Ajax has been specifically designed for this purpose.”

Our commitment to NATO includes two divisions. The first includes three manoeuvre brigades, with armoured and mechanised capabilities. With Ajax undeployable, we have no formation reconnaissance capability and therefore no deployable armoured brigade, thus we are not currently meeting our NATO obligation. Will the Minister clarify whether we still meet his NATO test without Ajax, whether we meet our NATO obligation more broadly, and, if he thinks we do, how?

[Al Carns]

As the hon. Member will recognise, a review of Ajax is under way. However, Ajax has been overspent and the key user requirements have changed and oscillated from left to right for the past 10 years. We have now taken this on and we recognise that we have to secure the capability to provide our armed forces with the very best. The reality is that Ukraine is teaching us that war is being fought very differently. It is not just about armour; as the hon. Member knows, it is about a mix of uncrewed systems and armoured systems, not one over the other.

[Official Report, 15 December 2025; Vol. 777, c. 612.]

Written correction submitted by the Minister for the Armed Forces, the hon. Member for Birmingham Selly Oak (Al Carns):

[Al Carns]

As the hon. Member will recognise, a review of Ajax is under way. However, Ajax has not been overspent but the key user requirements were over-specified. We have now taken this on and we recognise that we have to secure the capability to provide our armed forces with the very best. The reality is that Ukraine is teaching us that war is being fought very differently. It is not just about armour; as the hon. Member knows, it is about a mix of uncrewed systems and armoured systems, not one over the other.

Oral Answers to Questions

Al Carns Excerpts

Monday 15th December 2025 Commons Chamber

[Fred Thomas (Plymouth Moor View) (Lab)]

4. What steps his Department is taking to increase the speed of the development and adoption of uncrewed defence systems.

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)]

The Government are working exceptionally hard to ensure we speed up our procurement of uncrewed systems. In 2024 alone we are buying up to 5,400 drones, moving up to 8,000 in 2026. Really important is the development of our drone uncrewed centre of excellence, which will be launched later this year to provide better co-ordination and co-operation across defence, industries and academia in the delivery of uncrewed systems.

[Fred Thomas]

Britain’s future security depends on developing, testing and, crucially, adopting uncrewed systems quickly and safely, but the regulation is immensely complex. It spans many Departments, including the Ministry of Defence, the Department for Transport and the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology. The regulators include the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, the Civil Aviation Authority, the Military Aviation Authority, Ofcom and the Environment Agency. The list goes on—it is endless—and for the military, the police, the agencies and our innovators, the barriers are stifling. My hon. Friend will know that I have worked with stakeholders to develop proposals for reform, which he has seen, and I know that the MOD, the Department for Transport and even the Treasury are considering them, but to make real progress, we need coherence in this area. Will he now help me to convene a meeting of all the key regulators across the Departments to drive this forward?

[Al Carns]

My hon. Friend’s passion and support for this subject are not lost on me. The reality is that the majority of casualties on the frontline in Ukraine are caused by uncrewed systems. We have a navy without any ships that has destroyed a navy, and we have an air force with a minimal amount of fighter jets delivering strikes deep within Russia. With the dedication of the UK uncrewed system centre, which will open later on this year, we are establishing a centralised body of expertise to cut across the regulation and align regulatory freedoms with defence, to ensure that we can reduce that friction and improve assurance. I would love to meet my hon. Friend and the collective organisations to move this forward at pace. Enough is enough when it comes to regulation; we need to get on with it and we are going to double down over the next 12 months.

[Rebecca Smith (South West Devon) (Con)]

Turnchapel Wharf and the Cattewater in my constituency host many marine autonomous defence innovators, but the Maritime and Coastguard Agency’s workboat code edition 3 is hampering the testing, development and utilisation of autonomous vessels. They cannot even get the licences to be out on the water. What conversations has the Minister had with his counterparts in the Department for Transport to stress the urgency of sorting out this issue, so that the promised defence investment for Plymouth actually gets out to sea?

[Al Carns]

It is not lost on me that the testing and trialling of systems, in both the maritime and the air space, is full of regulatory issues and hurdles. We have had a couple of meetings with the Department for Transport, and we have a firm grasp of the problem. We now need to move this forward and unlock legislation to ensure that it is easier and far faster for those companies not only to develop cutting-edge technology and get it into the open market but to procure it for defence.

[Amanda Martin (Portsmouth North) (Lab)]

5. What steps he is taking to improve support for female veterans.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Vince (Harlow) (Lab/Co-op)]

22. What recent discussions he has had with NATO counterparts on European security.

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)]

The Government are putting NATO first and stepping up on European security. In the past month alone, I have met US, German and Estonian counterparts to discuss deepening our co-operation and protecting NATO’s eastern flank. But it does not stop there; this is about joint exercising and joint industrial co-operation. In just the past 12 to 18 months, we have done an amazing frigate deal with our Norwegian partners, we have done a deal for Typhoons with Turkey, and we are building our industrial and exercising co-operation across the whole of the NATO flank.

[Sarah Hall]

Yesterday I visited the Ukrainian family hub in Warrington for its Christmas celebrations. Many families who fled Putin’s war of aggression have made Warrington their home, but they are deeply worried about what the future holds, what peace might look like and whether they will ever be able to return safely to Ukraine. Can the Minister reassure them that the UK and our NATO allies remain steadfast in our support for Ukraine both in defending its sovereignty and in shaping a just and lasting peace?

[Al Carns]

The pain of losing one’s home is not lost on me, and being apart from friends and family over the Christmas period has a huge impact. Nearly 7 million Ukrainians have been displaced since 2022, all because of Putin’s barbaric and illegal invasion. I want to be absolutely clear: we will stand with Ukraine for as long as it takes, and we are committed to working towards a just and lasting peace. That is why we are spending a record £4.5 billion on military support for Ukraine this year, and why our total committed military, humanitarian and economic spend now amounts to £21.8 billion.

[Ben Goldsborough]

Norfolk has a proud and enduring history in the defence of our islands and our allies, from Nelson’s legacy to the RAF bases that welcome NATO personnel to this very day. What assessment has the Minister made of how Norfolk’s defence assets can further support our shared security with our NATO partners?

[Al Carns]

I thank my hon. Friend for the opportunity to acknowledge the vital military history and work of Norfolk. Whether defending the UK from zeppelin raids in world war one or serving as a frontline bomber command in world war two, RAF Marham has long been a cornerstone of our UK’s airpower. We are investing in RAF Marham, procuring multiple F-35 jets that will fly from the base. Those will strengthen NATO’s nuclear deterrence posture and add huge paths over to my hon. Friend’s constituency.

[Callum Anderson]

Deterrence depends not only on military strength but on our economic resilience, from energy security to protecting our critical infrastructure and vital industries. Will the Minister provide more information on what conversations he has been having with our partners and NATO allies in Europe, to align our economic security measures with our broader defence strategy on our continent?

[Al Carns]

The reality is that armies, navies and air forces respond to crisis; economies, industries and societies win wars. We are stepping up in these key areas, but we are not alone. As a great general once said, there is only one thing worse than working with allies, and that is working without them. We are doing this together. We are working within NATO to integrate economic security such as supply chain resilience for critical sectors and collective defence planning, and as part of the G7 we are strengthening investment, screening, export controls and the protection of critical national infrastructure.

[Chris Vince]

As the Minister will be aware—I mention it quite often—Harlow is home to high-tech defence innovation and skilled jobs. Will he confirm that one consequence of the historic NATO summit in June is that there will be further investment in defence and resilience that constituencies such as mine can benefit from?

[Al Carns]

This Government are not hollowing out defence or taking a dig at defence procurement. This Government are increasing morale, increasing recruitment and, importantly, making defence an engine for growth by investing in SMEs all over the country, with new cutting-edge technology and technological capability that will be battle-winning in the long term.

[Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

Having sat through the debate on Ukraine on 4 December, has the Minister taken on board the important message for our NATO colleagues that if there is a forced division of Ukraine, just as there was of occupied Germany at the end of the war, it will be essential that unoccupied western Ukraine is fully manned with deterrent allied troops? Nothing could be more destabilising than a vacuum in western Ukraine, with a heavily militarised occupied eastern Ukraine under the control of the killer in the Kremlin.

[Al Carns]

I thank the right hon. Member for his insight and support for all things defence. We must ensure that Ukraine is at the very centre of any negotiation, and this Government have been leading not only on the coalition of the willing but also across the Ukraine defence contact group. Just recently we raised €50 billion in support of Ukraine. If the Ukrainians negotiate a peace, the UK will fully support that peace through multiple different vectors.

[Richard Foord (Honiton and Sidmouth) (LD)]

There is a mismatch between the rhetoric that we are hearing and the funding for defence in this Parliament. The NATO Secretary-General talks about preparing for war on the scale that our grandparents endured, while the US national security strategy states that it is a “core interest” of the United States to “re-establish strategic stability” with Russia. In that context, will the Government urge a lowering of the temperature of statements by the likes of the Chief of the Defence Staff and the First Sea Lord, or will they increase defence spending closer to 3.5% of GDP in this Parliament?

[Al Carns]

Let us be really clear, for 14 years—[Interruption.] For 14 years, we have not seen defence spending going up. As shadow Ministers sit on the polished Opposition Front Bench criticising the individual Ministers speaking on behalf of the Government, I am the one who, collectively with others, had to put up with poor recruitment targets, terrible morale, and poor equipment and capability. For the first time in a generation, this Government are increasing defence spending for a long time, so that everybody in uniform will be able to look forward for the next 10 years and see that defence spending is going up. Well done.

[Ben Obese-Jecty (Huntingdon) (Con)]

Last week, the Minister for Defence Readiness and Industry told me:

“There are no other platforms within the Army’s armoured fleet which can fulfil the armoured reconnaissance role; Ajax has been specifically designed for this purpose.”

Our commitment to NATO includes two divisions. The first includes three manoeuvre brigades, with armoured and mechanised capabilities. With Ajax undeployable, we have no formation reconnaissance capability and therefore no deployable armoured brigade, thus we are not currently meeting our NATO obligation. Will the Minister clarify whether we still meet his NATO test without Ajax, whether we meet our NATO obligation more broadly, and, if he thinks we do, how?

[Al Carns]

As the hon. Member will recognise, a review of Ajax is under way. However, Ajax has been overspent and the key user requirements have changed and oscillated from left to right for the past 10 years. We have now taken this on and we recognise that we have to secure the capability to provide our armed forces with the very best. The reality is that Ukraine is teaching us that war is being fought very differently. It is not just about armour; as the hon. Member knows, it is about a mix of uncrewed systems and armoured systems, not one over the other.

[Susan Murray (Mid Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

An individual recruited by the Russian Government recently carried out an arson attack on British soil. That followed the Yantar’s aggressive action against the RAF in the North sea. Does the Minister agree with me that to defend against the growing Russian threat, we need to co-ordinate with our European allies, not just on aiding Ukraine, but on domestic security measures, be they on land, at sea or in our digital spaces?

[Al Carns]

The hon. Member makes an exceptionally valid point. Just last Thursday, we launched the Military Intelligence Services that are primarily about co-ordinating all of our intelligence capabilities to ensure that we can identify, deter and defeat threats should they be posed towards the UK, our critical national infrastructure or any of our sensitive sites. It is worth noting that engagement between the Military Intelligence Services, our defence intelligence and all our other agencies goes hand in glove with our like-minded European allies fighting for democracy and freedom all over the world.

[John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)]

10. What discussions he has had with service chiefs on the proposed level of spending in the forthcoming defence investment plan.

--- Later in debate ---

[Bradley Thomas (Bromsgrove) (Con)]

T10.  Today the head of MI6 will say that “the frontline is everywhere”. Does that not mean that the entirety of the Government and the military need to be far more proactive in dealing with threats that we face now, and accelerate defence spending in excess of 3% of GDP before the end of the decade?

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)]

That is exactly why, on Thursday, we launched the Military Intelligence Services, to map and track those threats, deter them and, if necessary, defeat them.

[Jonathan Hinder (Pendle and Clitheroe) (Lab)]

The Government’s deal to build 20 new Typhoons for NATO member Turkey is welcome news for jobs in Lancashire, including for my Pendle and Clitheroe constituents who work at BAE’s Samlesbury site. I am sure that the Minister will agree that, in this geopolitical environment, we need sovereign capability more than ever, so can he give us some more good news, back British workers and put in a domestic order for Typhoons?

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Danny Chambers (Winchester) (LD)]

The Army Training Regiment Winchester, which puts about 20% of new recruits through basic training, is due to be shut next July, but the replacement facility at Pirbright is not due to open until 2030 at the earliest, although apparently that might be delayed. We have corresponded on this briefly, but would the Minister be willing to meet me and perhaps facilitate a meeting with the commanding officers of Winchester and Pirbright, to ensure that they have the support they need to increase troop numbers and not lose the capacity to train 20% of them?

[Al Carns]

I would love to sit down and, in person, talk through this particular issue. It is worth noting that, for the first time in a long period, more people are joining than leaving, but it would be useful to talk through the specifics of the issue.

[Amanda Hack (North West Leicestershire) (Lab)]

I welcomed the Minister’s response in relation to the LGBT redress scheme, but my constituents have reported difficulties in obtaining evidence of mistreatment from the Ministry of Defence. Are there any further actions that the MOD can take to ensure that it is easy for our veterans to access such evidence?

--- Later in debate ---

[Johanna Baxter (Paisley and Renfrewshire South) (Lab)]

One of the many challenges that Ukraine will face should a peace agreement be reached is the task of clearing land of mines and unexploded ordnance so that it can once again sustain Ukraine’s vital agricultural economy. How do the Government intend to invest in innovative de-mining technologies and work with Ukraine to ensure that its land is made safe and productive for the future?

[Al Carns]

The devastation caused by Putin’s illegal war in Ukraine is not lost on any of us. Millions of landmines—anti-tank mines—have been laid all across the frontline and will take decades to clear. We will work constructively with our Ukrainian and international allies to ensure that Ukraine is returned to normal as soon as peace is declared.

[Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)]

The maintenance of our nuclear deterrent, and the development of our wider defence capabilities in the United Kingdom, rests heavily on the town of Barrow, next to my own constituency, in my district of Westmorland and Furness. Does the Secretary of State recognise that investment into the town from the council is crucial to maintaining our peace and security, and will he have a word with his colleagues in the Cabinet? The local council is set to have a 13% cut to its budget, which will put at risk much of the investment in the town of Barrow that is meant to underpin the defence of our realm.

War in Ukraine

Al Carns Excerpts

Thursday 4th December 2025 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for the Armed Forces (Al Carns)]

First, I express great thanks to the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex (Sir Bernard Jenkin) for pulling together this debate. I have listened to the truly outstanding speeches and contributions from all Members on both sides of the House, but I would like to begin by paying tribute not to us, but to the brave men and women of the Ukrainian armed forces who, day in and day out, are fighting for national survival. They are fighting for freedom, for justice and for the right to self-determination, and I believe there is no more honourable thing to be doing.

Today in this House we have sent a clear and resounding message to Vladimir Putin that no matter how he tries to justify his illegal war in Ukraine, no matter how he blames other countries for conflict that he alone is responsible for, and no matter how he thinks he can intimidate Europe—with drone incursions, spy ships and reckless activity—we see him and we know exactly what he is up to.

My hon. Friend the Security Minister updated the House earlier on the consequences of Putin’s reckless and despicable activity here on the British mainland. Dawn Sturgess’s needless death was an unspeakable tragedy that will forever be a reminder of Russia’s reckless aggression. That is why he today announced in the House sweeping measures to include sanctions on the entire GRU—the Russian military intelligence agency—and 11 actors behind Russian state-sponsored activity.

The UK will always stand up to Putin’s brutal regime and call out his murderous machine for what it is, which is why we are united in our determination to support Ukraine for as long as it takes to achieve the just and lasting peace that the people of Ukraine fully deserve, to keep tightening international economic sanctions on his economy and to keep working with our partners to protect Europe from the threats he poses.

I thank Members on all sides for their speeches, and I would like to reflect on some of the comments and themes. The hon. Member for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge) mentioned many valuable points. The right hon. Member for New Forest East (Sir Julian Lewis) mentioned a really useful saying about NATO, and we may want to think in a similar way about these negotiations—keeping the US in, keeping the Ukraine at the very centre and keeping Europe focused. It is on the diplomatic points that were mentioned that I personally believe the Government have driven—we had a leading role in ensuring that the 28-point peace plan is relevant, has Ukraine at its very centre and has Europe all pushing together in a unified manner. Our Government and our Prime Minister have done a fantastic job in that regard.

When we talk about assets—I will talk about them in a bit more detail later—I am quite confident that by the end of the year we will, hopefully, collectively with Europe, have unlocked a huge amount of assets to apply more pressure on Russia and to fund Ukraine’s defence. For clarity, on our own readiness, by 2027 we will be spending 2.6% on defence.

The hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex mentioned that the war in Ukraine has spread, and the argument has been made across the House that we are at war. I would argue that the war in Ukraine is geographically constrained, but the conflict is not. We see that moving across and around all the conventional themes of war, specifically in the cyber domain, the influence domain right here in the United Kingdom, and, of course, in the political domain, with the funding of political parties to cause division and strife across the political divide.

The hon. Member also talked about whether Ukraine was losing. I am a firm believer, at the strategic level, that Ukraine and NATO are absolutely on the front foot. Sweden and Finland have become part of the greatest defence alliance the world has ever seen. Russia has taken 1 million casualties. It is just worth thinking about that: 1 million casualties. It is almost the population of some eastern Baltic states. It is more casualties than America took in the entire second world war. In a lot of cases, we have isolated Russia from the west. Its economy is under significant pressure and just this year it has taken 380,000 casualties on the frontline.

[Sir Bernard Jenkin]

I am most grateful to the Minister for giving way and for his response to the debate. I know his personal commitment to these issues is very strong indeed, but may I just take him back to the point he makes? He pulls back from the idea that we in the NATO countries are already in a kind of war with Russia. I have to tell him that there is a tendency to try to sanitise the severity of the threats we face. How effective does he think is the Government’s “conversation” with the British population about the threats we face? How successful does he think that is? A lot of us feel that we are not seeing it at all. The Government are not leading this conversation. Indeed, it is almost being shut down because of the pressures of domestic politics, and the lack of support from the public for having such a conversation makes it very difficult. Will he comment on that, because it was in the strategic defence review?

[Al Carns]

I thank the hon. Member for his contribution. It absolutely was front and centre of the strategic defence review. There will be a couple of announcements coming in the next couple of weeks about how we hope to change the narrative and better explain, in a relatable manner, the threats or crises that take place away from our shores and how they impact us here in the UK. A small example, although attribution and where it came from is still to be understood, is the £1.5 billion bail-out for Jaguar Land Rover. That is half the two-child benefit cap for a year. That relatable statistic suddenly hammers it home to individuals in all our constituencies. They may not be focused on international policy, but they understand the ramifications for the way we live here.

Energy prices and the cost of food—one of the biggest impacts on the cost of living—are caused by the war in Ukraine. More people were plunged into poverty across the globe because of the war in Ukraine. We need to make more of a conscious effort, collectively, to describe these threats, and how they resonate here and globally, in a more forceful manner, so that people understand why taking an active stance on some of these conflicts is equally as important not only for the countries involved but for the United Kingdom.

The hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex also mentioned, in his fantastic opening speech, NATO and whether we are ready. Another description is required when we talk about the UK and our readiness to defend. We are a part of NATO. Statistically, when we look at the scale of NATO forces available, we see that we outnumber Russia by a significant amount, whether in the air force, maritime or land domain. I agree with his comments about the remarkable unity that Europe and the UK have shown when engaging with the 28-point peace plan—in some cases rejecting it and changing it to ensure that Ukraine is at its very centre. European and UK leadership has been second to none in that space.

One subject that has resonated across the House today is the issue of the abducted children. My hon. Friend the Members for Washington and Gateshead South (Mrs Hodgson), my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Johanna Baxter), who could not make it here today, and the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) have all mentioned the impact on families and children in particular. This is not new. It is part of Russian doctrine. It was used in Afghanistan. In every conflict, they round up the children, move them to Russia for re-education and indoctrination, then bring them back. We are seeing an appalling abduction of Ukrainian citizens by Russia on a scale that is described by the Yale Humanitarian Research Lab as the largest wartime child abduction since world war two. It is absolutely shocking and despicable.

The UK has raised this issue at the UN and the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe, and I pay tribute to the efforts of my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Gateshead South in highlighting the OSCE officials in Russian custody: Dmytro Shabanov, Maxim Petrov and Vadym Golda. We have committed £2.8 million to help Ukrainian children come back, and have been an active member of the International Coalition for the Return of Ukrainian Children throughout. Since the beginning of September, the pilot tracing mechanism has already identified over 600 additional children who were deported to the Russian Federation or relocated within the temporarily occupied territories.

I agree with the view that the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) holds of Zelensky. His leadership, courage, determination and conviction are an example to not only the Ukrainians but the world of how a state that in some ways is dwarfed by Russia has stood up against one of the biggest militaries in the world. I also agree, being relatively self-critical of the west, about there being some institutional arrogance when it comes to defence technology. That links to the point made about Ukrspecsystems. There are false lessons from Ukraine, but there are many more real ones that we need to adhere to, learn and integrate into our armed forces—in particular, about the integration of uncrewed systems data and electronic warfare. This point will be made throughout the defence investment plan. To be clear, we did not agree with the 28-point peace plan, and have worked very hard to change it, to put Ukraine at the very centre of it, and to look at what is acceptable. I hope to discuss some of the implications of that later.

The hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Helen Maguire) brought up a really good point about unexploded ordnance and the use of landmines in the conflict. There are millions of landmines, now rendering large swathes of Ukraine inaccessible to the farmers or families who once owned the land. It will be a generational problem to solve, and one that Members from all parties will need to deal with collectively.

From my perspective, our support for Ukraine is unshakeable. I say to the Father of the House, the right hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh), and my hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Dame Nia Griffith) that, from my perspective, we are doing the most we can to support Ukraine. We are spending £4.5 billion on military support to Ukraine. We are leading the Ukraine Defence Contact Group, which has already delivered and harnessed £50 billion-worth of support for Ukraine. To make that more tangible, that is 5 million rounds of ammunition, ranging from 60,000 rounds of artillery all the way through to 100,000 drones this year alone and 140 lightweight missiles. There is much more to do. The defence industry is powering up across Europe. If we look at our defence industrial base, and our societal resilience in dealing with this conflict, I think we can see that we are waking the sleeping tiger in Europe.

I also think that the constant threats and hyperbole from Vladimir Putin are a direct consequence of significant pressure, and of him having to live with the moral indignation of being responsible for over 1 million casualties and the devastation of large swathes of Ukraine. Like the right hon. Member for Gainsborough, I personally do not think that there is division in the UK; we are unified across the parties. I do not think that there is division in Europe, particularly among the large players in this space. I believe that we have unity when it comes to the 28-point peace plan and putting Ukraine at the very centre of that negotiation. Ukraine must keep fighting, and the UK will be with it throughout.

The hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex, my hon. Friends the Members for Leeds Central and Headingley (Alex Sobel), and for Llanelli, and many others mentioned frozen assets. We support the continued pressure on the Russian assets that are fuelling this illegal and barbaric war across Ukraine, and the pressure on Russia’s economic tentacles, but we must put increased pressure on Russia. It is worth noting that we have clamped down on Russia’s war machine and economic support mechanism. We have already sanctioned over 2,900 people and companies, and with our allies, we have already put in place £450 billion-worth of sanctions, which is the equivalent of two years of fighting.

We are moving forward with plans to use the full value of immobilised Russian sovereign assets to support Ukraine. We welcome the European Commission’s action just this week to bring forward concrete plans to meet Ukraine’s urgent financial needs—plans that will support the defence of the nation. I look forward to hearing more detail on that, hopefully by the end of this year.

[Sir Iain Duncan Smith]

I want to raise a point that I have just been told about. There is a debate right now in the Bundestag about the sanctions regime, and the German Chancellor Herr Merz has given up other visits in the last 24 hours to go to Belgium to persuade the Belgians to agree to proposals on sanctions. There is pressure around this. I have just been asked to ask the Minister whether he would say that this is a very worth- while visit, and that the British Government support the intention of getting Belgium to enter into the scheme with the lion’s share of the Euroclear funds. That would make an enormous difference to support for Ukraine.

[Al Carns]

I was in Germany just last week, and when I left, I muttered, “Germany is back.” I think that representatives from Germany going to Belgium to help unlock a significant amount of resource for Ukraine can be nothing but a good thing.

Many Members mentioned the increase in hybrid conflict. The conventional war that Russia is waging is the most barbaric that we have seen since, I would argue, world war one or world war two. Nevertheless, Europe and the west must accept that this attritional, force-on-force, game-of-chequers approach is accompanied by a sophisticated chess match, the consequences of which are as deadly. I believe that Russia is probing to find weaknesses in our security and critical national infrastructure. It is manoeuvring and flanking to change opinions, both on social media and in political parties, and is seeking to circumnavigate sanctions at every opportunity, and it is doing so with like-minded autocratic regimes. We must work doubly hard to identify, expose and deter those threats, and we should have the capability to defeat them, should they prevail.

I disagree with the comments of the hon. Member for Inverness, Skye and West Ross-shire (Mr MacDonald) about timidity and a lack of leadership. In the foreign policy space, the UK, in conjunction with our European allies, has helped the Americans come to a more workable solution, and the Ukrainians have been put right at the heart of that—and I think that the Prime Minister has demonstrated exceptional leadership in that. We are still seen to be leading this fight. I look to the Conservative Benches. Whether it be Storm Shadow or Challenger, collectively we have led on this, from a UK perspective. I do not think that we are lacking in any way.

[Sir Julian Lewis]

One way in which we could continue to lead would be by giving a very firm commitment that if the frontlines are indeed frozen, a coalition of the willing would have military assets on the ground, at the invitation of unoccupied Ukraine, so that there could be no question but that a future attack would trigger a response from that coalition. Otherwise, any security guarantee is not worth the paper on which it is printed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Al Carns]

The right hon. Member makes a very valid point. We have led over 30 countries in the coalition of the willing in designing safe seas and skies and secure borders. We have a capability that is well thought-through and well-planned, and it will be ready to go, if required.

The reality is that a secure Europe needs a strong and sovereign Ukraine, and Ukraine must have credible security guarantees if it is to defend itself, as many Members have mentioned. That is why we have led the coalition of the willing; and be in no doubt: we are ready to deploy and deliver our commitment, should the peace be negotiated to allow us to do so. We continue to put in £3 billion a year—£4.5 billion this year—and we will continue to play a leadership role in the Ukraine Defence Contact Group.

Pokrovsk was mentioned early on, and it was rightly pointed out that it has not fallen yet. The Ukrainians are holding a valiant defence of that town. It is worth mentioning, when we talk about tactical success or failure, that Russia has advanced only 15 km over the last year, equivalent to 4 metres a day, and has taken 170,000 casualties to fight its way into Pokrovsk. That is a world war two scale of casualties. Russia has suffered over a million casualties to gain only around 1% of Ukrainian territory; that brings home the impact of the conflict.

Day after day, for almost four years, the Ukrainians have fought with incredible courage, determination and ingenuity. The UK and Europe stand together, more so than ever before, and Putin’s continued aggression binds us closer together. We are collectively spending more on defence than at any time since the cold war, with more joint exercising, more joint planning and more joint capability development, because Ukraine is at the forefront of European security. If Putin opts for a long overdue ceasefire, we will continue to lead the coalition of the willing to establish credible deterrence in Ukraine. If that is not forthcoming, we will continue to work with allies to put Ukraine in the strongest possible position by upping military support and upping the pressure on Putin’s war machine.

The hon. Member for Tiverton and Minehead (Rachel Gilmour) gave a great speech that quoted Churchill, so may I finish on one, also?

“When I look back upon the perils we overcame across the great waves, the gallant ship has sailed, we will not fear the tempest. Let it roar, let it rage.”—[Official Report, 7 May 1941; Vol. 371, c. 946.]

Ukraine will come through.