Human Rights (Egypt)

Tobias Ellwood Excerpts

Thursday 5th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)(Urgent Question]

To ask the Foreign Secretary to make a statement on the visit of President el-Sisi of Egypt and the human rights record of his Government, and, in particular, their use of the death penalty.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Tobias Ellwood)]

The Prime Minister invited President Sisi to the United Kingdom because it is in Britain’s interest to help Egypt to succeed as a stable, prosperous and democratic country, and to boost our strong commercial relationship. The Prime Minister will meet President Sisi today and will discuss a range of issues, including how to combat terrorism and counter-extremism in Egypt and the region, and how best to help Egypt to succeed as that stable, prosperous and democratic country.

It is no secret that we want to see more political progress in Egypt. We want to see better protection of Egyptians’ constitutional rights, freedom of expression, and more space for non-governmental organisations and civil society. These rights and freedoms are essential to Egypt’s long-term stability. However, megaphone diplomacy is not the way for us to succeed in putting our views across effectively. Instead, we need to treat each other as real partners, and to have frank and honest conversations. This visit gives the Prime Minister an opportunity to emphasise his desire to see more political progress in Egypt, including progress on human rights and political freedoms, which are essential foundations for long-term stability.

We welcome Egypt’s current parliamentary elections as an important step towards the restoration of its legitimate institutions. By representing the Egyptian people, legislating, and holding the Government to account, the new Parliament should have a vital responsibility in building a more secure, prosperous and democratic country. Through our own conflict stability and security fund, we are working with officials from the Egyptian Parliament to help prepare it for the new session, and look forward to continuing that co-operation after the elections.

Since President Sisi was elected in May 2014, we have raised concerns over a number of human rights issues, including the large number of death sentences and the prosecution of international journalists. The United Kingdom respects the independence of the Egyptian judiciary, but we remain concerned about judicial processes that result in mass sentences, and by reports of a lack of due process in Egypt’s courts in some cases. Those factors damage the reputation of Egypt’s judiciary, and undermine international confidence in the fair application of law. The United Kingdom opposes the death penalty in all circumstances, as a matter of principle.

We have raised concerns, and will continue to do so, at ministerial meetings and in the United Nations Human Rights Council. We hope that this visit to the United Kingdom will provide an opportunity for us to hold an open dialogue on all issues, and to develop a programme of practical co-operation for the future.

[Tom Brake]

I thank the Minister for that statement.

The Minister will be aware of a range of human rights concerns in relation to Egypt—he has mentioned many of them today—including the detention and condemning to death of ex-President Morsi and the fate of Karim Ashraf Mohamed al-Banna, a student from Cairo sentenced to three years in prison for announcing on Facebook that he was an atheist, thereby “insulting Islam”.

The UK Government’s position on human rights also appears to be weakening. Asked whether human rights was now one of their “lower-priority activities”, Sir Simon McDonald, permanent secretary at the FCO, replied:

“Well, answering as permanent secretary, I say that although it is one of the things we follow, it is not one of our top priorities…I would not dispute that right now the prosperity agenda is further up the list”

of priorities. Will the Minister take this opportunity to confirm that the UK Government are not downgrading human rights in favour of trade ?

Will the Prime Minister raise directly with President el-Sisi the case of Ibrahim Halawa, the Irish teenager who may be subjected to the death penalty? My right hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) met his sisters yesterday. Will the Prime Minister raise the cases of the different faiths suffering persecution in Egypt, including the Coptic Christians, for instance, who are experiencing kidnappings, arson and attacks on their churches? Finally, will the Prime Minister have that frank and honest conservation with President el-Sisi today and press him to commit to an end to the death penalty, political detentions, mass trials and torture in Egypt?

[Mr Ellwood]

The right hon. Gentleman raises a number of very important issues and many of them will be raised by the Prime Minister and when I have the opportunity to meet the President and Foreign Minister Shukri. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned up front the question of the priority Britain places on human rights, so let me clarify the remarks of Simon McDonald. It is now our view that we raise human rights as a matter of course—it is not instead of; it is part of the package. It is part of the process, so that every time I—or the Minister of State, Department for International Development, my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest West (Mr Swayne) —go into a meeting, we raise these matters. They are part of the broad area of concerns that we raise, along with the prosperity agenda.

The right hon. Gentleman mentions the trial of President Morsi. We have raised concerns about the legal process in that case, along with others that I have mentioned. The legal process is yet to be complete, but as I said in my opening remarks, we have concerns about the roll-out of these mass trials and the need to meet international standards.

The right hon. Gentleman mentioned specifically Ibrahim Halawa. Foreign Office officials have raised the matter this summer. The Irish Government are taking the lead, but we are in touch with them.

Let me end on the importance of the prosperity agenda. In order to ensure that countries are able to take the necessary steps of reform, and particularly after the decade of turbulence that Egypt has endured, it is important that there are jobs, as that provides stability and denies the space for extremism to flourish. It is absolutely right that we press human rights matters, but we are also very forward-thinking in our work to assist Egypt in a variety of sectors. Indeed, the largest company operating in Egypt is a British company: Vodafone.

[Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con)]

I agree with the Minister’s definition of Britain’s interests in our relationship with Egypt, but conducting diplomacy often requires some rather ugly compromises of our values. I accept that practical engagement with Egypt is essential; it is the largest country in the Arab world by some distance. Some would claim that in 2013 the then General Sisi and the military reclaimed stability and security for Egypt by removing President Morsi and his Administration from office, but no one should be in any doubt about what the price has been. Possibly thousands of people were killed when the squares were cleared, 40,000 are in prison, we have seen death penalties being handed out in batches of several hundred, and many of us will have heard first-hand testimony of people being tortured in the Egyptian justice system. I am not entirely sure that inviting President Sisi to the United Kingdom is wholly appropriate until such issues are properly addressed and there is some accountability for the conduct of the operation of 2013 and of policy since.

I accept that it is absolutely necessary for us to engage with the Egyptian Government in policy terms, and to try to give them advice privately about the possible danger they are presenting to us through the scale of the suppression, which could have the effect of widening the insurgency they face and increasing support for the most extreme Islamist jihadism in the region. It has been reported that the Foreign Office was not exactly enthusiastic about this visit, and that the decision was taken in No. 10. I wonder whether the Minister would like to comment on all that.

[Mr Ellwood]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his statement. I am not sure whether he was speaking as an individual—in fact, I hope that he was speaking as an individual and not as the Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee, because I am not sure that the Committee would be in synergy with everything that he has said. On his last comment, I can tell him that the Foreign Office is very much in support of the visit.

My hon. Friend began by explaining the difficulties that Egypt is facing at the moment, and I absolutely agree with him. Egypt is in a very difficult neck of the woods, given the problems that we are facing in Libya and in Gaza. He also mentioned that Egypt was the largest Arab country in the region, and where Egypt goes, other countries often follow. It is therefore important that we help it to take those important footsteps towards being an open, democratic place. The Prime Minister invited President Sisi to this country precisely so that we can have a frank dialogue on a range of issues, including the very matters that my hon. Friend has just raised. We want to encourage a prosperity agenda, but we also want to emphasise the importance of political reform. That is the way in which we can help Egypt to succeed in taking steps towards being a stable, prosperous and democratic place.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

I thank the right hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) for raising this important issue. I should also like to thank the Minister for his response, and in particular for setting out the Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s current approach to human rights. When the original demonstrations took place in Tahrir Square in January 2011, the Egyptian people had a great sense of hope and expectation for a better future. Events since then have dashed those hopes, but we all want to see stability in Egypt and the wider middle east.

The House will be only too aware of the terrorist threat in Egypt, given the possible cause of the Russian plane crash, but does the Minister think that security will be furthered by the mass arrests and trials that we have seen since President Sisi seized power? Amnesty International assesses that tens of thousands of people are currently being detained in a crackdown on dissent that has targeted alleged supporters of the banned Muslim Brotherhood as well as human rights activists, journalists and perceived opponents of the Government. Has the Minister received assurances that British and other journalists are free to operate in Egypt?

Mass trials have resulted in courts handing down death sentences, including on former President Morsi, and long prison sentences. What assessment have the Government made of the fairness of those trials, given the concerns that have been expressed about the lack of proper legal representation and the wholly inadequate opportunities to present a defence? There are also reports of torture being used against those being detained, including the use of sexual violence against women. Has the Minister seen those reports and, if so, what representations have been made to the Egyptian Government?

The Minister said that the Prime Minister would be raising a range of issues with President Sisi today. Can he confirm that the Prime Minister will raise all those specific human rights issues with the President during their discussions? Will those discussions also cover the status of the Muslim Brotherhood in the United Kingdom, and if so, can the Minister tell the House when the review carried out by John Jenkins will be published?

[Mr Ellwood]

May I thank the hon. Lady for her observations and questions, and welcome her to her place? I look forward to further dialogue and exchanges. Her opening remarks contained much on which we can agree. First, we want to see a stable Egypt, and huge concerns have been expressed about the terrorism situation that the country faces, which has been underlined, not least, by the Russian plane incident—a statement and more detail will follow on that. She mentioned the concerns about the mass arrests, and my opening remarks showed that I concur with her. We are concerned about two laws: the protest law, which we do not want to see used to limit freedoms of expression and the rights contained in the new constitution; and the anti-terror law. Egypt is facing a terrorist threat, but the law must not be used to limit the rights and freedoms of normal people wishing to express themselves. She asked about the Muslim Brotherhood report, and I can tell her that its key findings will be published shortly. Finally, on the question of the agenda of the meeting with the Prime Minister, all I can say is that nothing is off the table.

[Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)]

As Chairman of the all-party group on Egypt, along with the right hon. Member for Warley (Mr Spellar), may I fundamentally disagree with my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Crispin Blunt) and say to the Minister that we warmly welcome President Sisi’s visit? We think it is a tremendous opportunity for the United Kingdom to engage, for all the reasons that the Minister has set out. Does he agree that Egypt is an ally of ours and that it is a key component in bringing about regional stability, not least in the work it has done in trying to bring about a solution between Israel and the Palestinians? Does he agree that it is very important that the British Government provide their expertise in counter-terrorism, because Egypt is under serious threat and although human rights and democracy are of course vital— nobody in this House would disagree on that—stability in the region and stability in Egypt are nevertheless unquestionably a precondition to human rights?

[Mr Ellwood]

I very much welcome my hon. Friend to his position as chair of the all-party group on Egypt—

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

I am the chairman, not the chair.

[Mr Ellwood]

I stand corrected—I welcome him as the chairman of the all-party group on Egypt. I was personally involved in making sure that he and I, and other members of the all-party group, will have the opportunity, as parliamentarians, to meet President Sisi in order to raise many of the important issues that have been brought up today. He speaks appropriately about Egypt’s wider regional role and the responsibility it is taking to bring about peace and bring together parties. The Minister of State, Department for International Development, my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest West (Mr Swayne), who is in his place, and I attended a meeting in Cairo as part of the Gaza donors conference to look at the humanitarian support—that was an initiative on the part of President Sisi. Finally, we are providing expertise to assist Egypt in defeating terrorism in the Sinai peninsula and elsewhere.

[Ms Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh (Ochil and South Perthshire) (SNP)]

I thank the right hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) for bringing this important question to the House and the Minister for his answer. A stable Egypt is important for that country and is of course vital for the wider region, but we cannot support stability at all costs. We do not just have a humanitarian responsibility to the people of Egypt to stand up for human rights in their country; we also have an interest in promoting a fair and just country, because a fair and just Egyptian Government will create an inherently more stable Egypt. What assurances can the Minister give that the importance of human rights in Egypt will remain on the agenda for the discussions between the Prime Minister and the President today, given this morning’s reports that the UK Government’s decisions to suspend flights to and from Sharm el-Sheikh will mean that the Egyptian Government are likely to be less receptive to discussions on wider issues of concern?

[Mr Ellwood]

I pay tribute to the hon. Lady for her knowledge, interest and expertise in this area, but, as will become apparent when the statement is released—without wishing to take away from that statement—two separate issues are being conflated. There is an urgent security threat that affects flights, which is why flights have been temporarily suspended. That is quite separate from our commitment to encouraging advances in human rights laws and the prosperity agenda. I hope that the urgency of our having to deal with British citizens abroad and ensuring that they are secure does not affect the importance of the visit that is taking place.

[Helen Whately (Faversham and Mid Kent) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that we need stronger relationships with countries in the middle east and that it is right that we are engaging in dialogue with President Sisi, as it is providing us with an opportunity to raise our concerns about human rights? As my hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth) said, stability in Egypt is vastly preferable to chaos both for people in the region and our own security.

[Mr Ellwood]

My hon. Friend articulates the exact question that many Governments have to ask themselves—how best do we influence and exert change in those countries that need encouragement to take steps forward to a more open and democratic space. One way of doing that is by shouting from afar in the hope that we can exact change. The other way to facilitate change is by engaging with those countries, having private conversations with them and providing assistance and expertise. I am afraid that that way is not so open or overt, but it is, I believe, a better way to achieve change than by shouting from afar.

[Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP)]

I, too, commend the right hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) for bringing this matter to the Floor of the House. In his comments, he suggested that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office may believe that democracy and respect for human rights are less of a priority than financial prosperity and stability. Does the Minister not accept that those priorities are the wrong way round? Any Government who are founded on democracy and respect for human rights will see that stability and prosperity inevitably follow. A Government who are founded on oppression and denial of human rights will never be stable and will never govern a prosperous country. Will the Minister assure the House that the FCO will review its priorities and will, in all cases, put democracy and respect for human rights at the top of its list of priorities?

[Mr Ellwood]

At the beginning of this year, I had the honour of taking 50 companies on a delegation to Cairo, and we visited the new Suez Canal as well. It was during the private meetings there that we were able to raise many of those issues. Companies will not invest in places if they do not feel secure and that there is an advancement in human rights, the rule of law and the judicial process. I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, but I make it very clear that I never shy away from any opportunity in any country to raise concerns on human rights. It will not necessarily make the front pages of the local newspapers or even here, but I can guarantee that these matters are raised by us, by the Department for International Development and, where appropriate, by the Ministry of Defence.

[Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con)]

Stevenage is home to the Coptic cathedral in England, and I am very concerned about the plight of Coptic Christians in Egypt. In the frank exchange of views that the Minister referred to earlier, will he ensure that religious freedoms and the plight of those Coptic Christians being kidnapped and murdered is raised with the President?

[Mr Ellwood]

I had an opportunity to visit one of the Coptic churches in Cairo, and I raised that very important matter of the minorities in Egypt. It will also be raised during President Sisi’s visit in the next couple of days.

[Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)]

In July 2013, after the military coup, the then Foreign Secretary said that

“we cannot support military interventions in democratic processes.”—[Official Report, 10 July 2013; Vol. 566, c. 385.]

The new regime in King Charles Street seems to be taking a completely different tack. What has happened since that time is that the human rights record in Egypt has plummeted. The Minister knows that there was a trial in which 520 death sentences were issued after one hour, and 683 death sentences were issued without a single defendant being present. We do not hear about it, because 125 journalists are locked up. Does the Minister not understand that appearing to endorse President Sisi is likely to make people more engaged with radical terrorism than the other way round?

[Mr Ellwood]

I do not agree with the hon. Lady. President Sisi was elected and has had a referendum as well. The first round of parliamentary elections took place in October and the second round will take place on 23 November. That will provide additional scrutiny of what the Executive are doing. We take every opportunity to raise the issue of the mass arrests, as I said in my opening remarks; perhaps the hon. Lady did not hear that, but I am happy to send her a copy. In December 2013, 20 al-Jazeera journalists were arrested and we took every opportunity to make it clear that we had concerns about the manner of the arrests, not least because two Britons were involved. They were convicted in absentia and we are encouraging a full pardon to ensure that their names are cleared.

[John Howell (Henley) (Con)]

What assessment has the Minister made of how effective the parliamentary elections in Egypt will be in tackling human rights and will the Prime Minister raise that in his discussions with President Sisi?

[Mr Ellwood]

The elections were well overdue and we are pleased that the first round has taken place, as I have just mentioned. This is a new Parliament. There is an awful lot of work to be done as it takes its infant footsteps in understanding how it, as a legislature, needs to hold the Executive to account. I am pleased that the Arab Partnership scheme and the Westminster Foundation for Democracy and funds from the FCO will provide financial assistance to help train the Parliament and ensure that it is as effective as possible in holding the Executive and the presidency to account.[Official Report, 16 November 2015, Vol. 602, c. 4MC.]

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

I commend my hon. Friend for all the work he is doing in this area, and I particularly encourage him to raise the question of human rights on every possible occasion. Will he also thank the Egyptian people, through their Government, for the hospitality they are giving to so many thousands of refugees from Syria? Egypt is not often mentioned in that context, but it is doing vital work in that respect.

[Mr Ellwood]

I concur with my hon. Friend. The work that perhaps goes unnoticed is the effort that Egypt is making to combat ISIL and terrorism in its own backyard; Ansar Bayt al-Maqdis is a terrorism group in the Sinai peninsula that has pledged its allegiance to ISIL, making matters ever more difficult in that area. Egypt should be congratulated not only on its work to combat terrorism but, as my hon. Friend points out, on taking on numbers of refugees as well.

CBRN Security Assistance Programmes

Tobias Ellwood Excerpts

Thursday 29th October 2015 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Tobias Ellwood)]

The Foreign and Commonwealth Office, Ministry of Defence and Department of Energy and Climate Change are today publishing a report on the Government’s international chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear (CBRN) security assistance programmes. The report summarises work and achievements under these programmes in the 2013-14 and 2014-15 financial years.

The Government are committed to improving the security of CBRN materials and expertise around the world. The programmes form the UK’s contribution to the global partnership against the spread of weapons and materials of mass destruction, which co-ordinates international efforts to improve CBRN security. Over the past two years, these programmes have delivered important improvements in line with the objectives of the global partnership and the national counter-proliferation strategy 2012-15.

Since the period covered by the report, UK-funded CBRN security programmes have continued to deliver results, including the two examples below, which demonstrate the value of the UK’s programmes:

On 24 September 2015, Uzbekistan became a country free of high enriched uranium (HEU) after liquid HEU fuel was removed from a research reactor at the radiation and technological complex in Tashkent. The fuel has been flown to Russia for secure disposition. Funding and expert advice to decommission the research reactor, which was a prerequisite for the removal of the HEU, was provided by the global threat reduction programme.

On 22 September 2015, Russia announced that the chemical weapons destruction facility at Shchuch’ye had completed operations, which resulted in the destruction of 5,500 tonnes of highly toxic nerve agent contained in more than 1.9 million artillery munitions. During 2002 to 2010, the UK implemented procurement and infrastructure projects worth over £90 million at the facility: these have made a major contribution to the destruction operations there.

Funding for these projects was provided by the UK, Canada, the EU, France and other donors.

The report will be published on the gov.uk website: www.gov.uk/government/publications/report-on-uk-international-chemical-biological-radiological-and-nuclear-cbrn-security-assistance-programmes

[HCWS275]

Pakistan

Tobias Ellwood Excerpts

Tuesday 27th October 2015 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Tobias Ellwood)]

Thank you, Mr Davies; it is a real pleasure to respond to this debate, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti) on securing it. He spoke with such passion, flair, understanding and expertise on this matter, and in such detail, that he has managed to give me limited time in which to respond. However, such is his enthusiasm for making sure that these matters are discussed in the House that it is fully understandable that he has eaten a little into my time to reply. I will do my best to respond to some of the matters that he has raised, and as usual, I will write to him in the normal manner if there are points that I cannot reply to now. I commend him and other hon. Members for the work they have done in the House.

My hon. Friend began, as I should as well, by offering our condolences, understanding and sympathies to all those affected by the horrific earthquake that has taken place in Afghanistan, but which has rippled right across the region. He asked what Britain is doing. Naturally, we stand ready to give support—we have had no formal request yet, but we stand by, ready to help our friend and ally.

My hon. Friend mentioned the important role of the enormous diaspora that we have in this country, which strengthens our cultural relationships and the understanding of our country, which is very important indeed. I am pleased that he also paid tribute to the British Council, not least the delegation that I had the opportunity to meet recently on a visit to the country. I was very proud to meet those British Council representatives and to hear about the work they are doing to strengthen this important bilateral relationship. I had the opportunity to visit not only Karachi, but Islamabad last month. I saw at first hand how Britain is working very closely with Pakistan on three key areas: security, which my hon. Friend raised, the economy and governance. Before trying to answer his questions, I will cover—in the time available—some thoughts on those three key areas.

First, as my hon. Friend implied, security across Pakistan has improved dramatically. There really was an understanding—almost a wake-up call—following the disastrous attack that killed so many children in the Peshawar public school. The British Government are very much playing our part. We are training Pakistani police and promoting work with prosecutors and the judiciary to investigate, prosecute and sentence terrorist suspects in line with international human rights standards. We have made an awful lot of progress, and I hope that continues.

Secondly, on the economy, the improved security is helping to drive economic growth. It is making the country more attractive. An International Monetary Fund programme has helped to stabilise the economy since the fiscal and balance of payments crisis two years ago. However, more work is needed if we are to increase the country’s growth to the 7% to 8% needed to reduce poverty. We continue to encourage Pakistan to address the energy crisis, tackle corruption and undertake further privatisations, which are needed to boost the economy. We are supporting businesses that want to trade more with Pakistan, where the opportunities, from energy to infrastructure, are clear, as I discovered on my visit. I hope to return to Pakistan, not least to Karachi, in the near future with my own trade delegation. Indeed, I have invited and encouraged the Mayor of London, who is familiar with working with megacities, to provide assistance in making sure that Karachi works towards being a gateway to the region.

Thirdly, on governance, the advances made in security and prosperity cannot be sustained without good governance, and democracy in Pakistan has shallow roots, as we have heard. We are helping to build on that and sharing our experience to cement accountable governance, credible elections and civilian transitions. The Department for International Development, which my hon. Friend mentioned a number of times, has one of the largest bilateral aid programmes and is helping Pakistan to improve healthcare, education and the provision of humanitarian assistance. UK aid has benefited over 6 million primary school children, ensured that over 1 million more births involved medical professionals and helped over 4 million flood victims.

My hon. Friend mentioned Kashmir, which is obviously a very sensitive subject. He is familiar with our long-standing position in the UK—that it is for India and Pakistan to find a lasting solution to the situation in Kashmir which takes into account the wishes of the Kashmiri people. It is not for the UK to prescribe a solution or indeed, to mediate, but we very much encourage both sides to maintain their positive dialogue and to work towards a solution.

In the limited time remaining, I will try as best as I can to answer the series of questions that my hon. Friend asked. As I mentioned, on the earthquake, we stand ready to give support. We will continue to have discussions with British Airways. The time is now ripe for those flights to be reviewed and reinstalled. I hope that will be the case, pending the security requirements that we and the airline need. On travel advice, we want to make things as trouble-free as possible. There are over 1 million visits and movements every year. There is a requirement, occasionally, for us to review travel advice to specific areas. We are quite careful to make sure that we articulate that travel advice on our website.

On bilateral trade, we have the target of £3 billion. I hope we can persevere towards that. My hon. Friend is right to emphasise the fact that the British Government now underwrites and guarantees business opportunities. The money has increased from £200 million to £300 million, which I think is excellent news. That is an indication of how we want to meet the target and to encourage not only businesses that are already there to grow, but new businesses to consider Pakistan as a place to open up and do business.

My hon. Friend mentioned the 70th anniversary in 2017. I very much hope that that is something we can work towards, and it is wise to flag that up now, to ensure that we can mark that important landmark in Pakistan’s history.

On visas, my hon. Friend will be aware of the robust requirement for us to have a thorough visa system in place. However, we want to make sure that we can attract the brightest and best students from around the world and that they are able to come here on legitimate courses, so we very much want to work with Pakistan on that front. On terrorism, I hear what he said about the requests. We will certainly look at that. We have a very strong relationship that is growing ever stronger with regard to helping Pakistan on counter-terrorism.

My hon. Friend spoke of the opportunities for the country to grow and to become the South Korea of the future.

[Rehman Chishti]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Ellwood]

I have 30 seconds left, so I hope it is a short intervention.

[Rehman Chishti]

Will the Minister join me in welcoming the high commissioner of Pakistan to our debate and in commending him for the brilliant work he does to build the relationship between our two countries?

[Mr Ellwood]

That intervention was absolutely deserved. I look forward to meeting the high commissioner in the very near future—I think we have a meeting planned either today or tomorrow—and we are always happy to have the opportunity to meet.

This has been a short debate, but it has articulated the importance of this bilateral relationship and the opportunities for us to work together on security, the economy and governance.

Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)).

Yemen

Tobias Ellwood Excerpts

Thursday 22nd October 2015 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Tobias Ellwood)]

This has been a constructive and profitable debate for the House. I join others in congratulating the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) who, not just today but in previous debates has shown, quite rightly, a determination to test the Government on what we are doing and to express his concern about the devastation taking place, from a humanitarian perspective, and about what more the international community should be doing to look for peace in the Yemen. He mentioned the all-party group on Yemen, which I congratulate on its work.

As with previous debates of this nature, I shall do my best to answer as many questions as possible. I have more papers here than time will allow me to go through, but, as previously, I will write to hon. Members with details. My team and I will go through Hansard so that I can provide detailed answers to the questions that have been asked.

The right hon. Gentleman went through the history of the important relationship Britain has had with Yemen, explaining the context for that strong relationship, and why there is therefore is an expectation that we should do more. The relationship goes back to 1839, when Aden became a protectorate. There was the regional influence of the Ottoman empire in the north, followed by the Yemen Arab Republic, and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) mentioned, the People’s Democratic Republic of Yemen in the south. All that history is linked with the opening of the Suez canal. Britain has a hugely important long-term relationship with this neck of the woods. It was a stepping stone on the way to India, and the port of Aden was used as a calling station when the Suez canal opened. We know the area well and there is an expectation that Britain should play its part in leading the international community in working towards solutions.

The right hon. Member for Leicester East spoke of the huge suffering caused by the advance of the Houthi, who have signed a number of documents, not least the critical national partnership for peace, signed in September 2014. They then decided to ignore that document, leading to them pushing from the north-west of the country, all the way through the capital towards the port of Aden, causing humanitarian suffering on the huge scale we have heard about today.

The right hon. Gentleman mentioned Iran’s role. I met the Iranian Deputy Foreign Minister yesterday, when I raised this very subject, including the importance of Iranian restraint, and support for a ceasefire and for the work of the UN envoy, Ismail Ould Cheikh Ahmed, which a number of hon. Members mentioned. All countries need to work for stabilisation and for the implementation of humanitarian support to prevent a catastrophe on a scale that would dwarf what we are seeing in Syria at the moment, as hon. Members have said.

The right hon. Gentleman mentioned in an intervention the importance of support for Britons who may still be in Yemen. We obviously stand ready to support anybody who is willing to get out of the country; we have been saying that for four years. Anybody who is still there is likely to be of dual nationality and is probably determined to stay. We absolutely stand ready to support any British national who chooses to remain in the country.

My hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce), who is a member of the International Development Committee, brings a huge amount of experience to the debate. She highlighted the food security crisis and issues of malnutrition in the country, as well as the number of schools that have been closed, which is another important aspect. The problem is that when eventually the guns fall silent, we are then denying the country the educated people who are needed to be the next generation of doctors, engineers, civil servants and so on to take the country forward. That is a tragic situation.

My hon. Friend also underlined the importance of DFID funding. Stephen O’Brien, who is the United Nations under-secretary-general for humanitarian affairs and emergency relief co-ordinator, and a former Member of this House, said at a meeting I chaired at the United Nations that it is a question not of a lack of funding coming forward—countries are very willing to provide donations—but of restrictions on certain places that are denying humanitarian aid from getting into the country. I have stressed to not only the Deputy Foreign Minister of Iran but also to Saudi Arabia, Oman, the United Arab Emirates and President Hadi, to whom I speak on an almost weekly basis, that Hodeidah, the red sea port on the west of the country, needs to be opened as soon as possible. It is simply not logistically possible to get aid through the port of Aden up to the rest of the country if we are going to keep these people alive. As hon. Members have said, we are one step away from famine.

[Stephen Gethins]

I am glad the Minister mentioned Mr O’Brien, the under-secretary-general for humanitarian affairs. Mr O’Brien has also said that airstrikes and shelling have been

“in clear contravention of international humanitarian law”.

Does the Minister share that view?

[Mr Ellwood]

I have not seen that particular quote. I spoke to Mr O’Brien at length, and I know there are many reports on that. I will, of course, refer to it. The hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Catherine West), who I very much welcome to her place, also raised that issue. If there is any evidence, it needs to come forward.

The conduct of war is always a difficult thing. As a former soldier—there are others here who have served—I know that in operational environments, we need to ensure that the rules of engagement are adhered to as much as possible. If there are human rights violations, they must absolutely be looked into, but I am not aware of any such evidence at the moment. We need to be careful about hearsay. If NGOs have evidence, they must bring it forward.

The hon. Member for Edmonton (Kate Osamor) does not seem to be in her place, so I will address other Members. My hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth South (Mrs Drummond) brings a huge amount of value and knowledge to the debate. She spoke of the damage to ports. Unfortunately, the cranes in Hodeidah have also been destroyed, so even when the city is liberated, there will be a delay in getting support.

Yemen is hugely reliant. It is a very poor country and does not have the wealth of oil, gas and hydrocarbons that other Gulf nations do. We have called for and continue to call for a ceasefire. That was discussed at the meeting I chaired in New York. We are seeking to bring parties together in the next few weeks and get them back around the table. We have got to this point in the past but have never managed to secure the actual ceasefire document itself, but Britain is certainly calling for that important document to be signed.

I think that I have answered the point from the hon. Member for North East Fife (Stephen Gethins) on human rights violations. He also mentioned history and gave the example of Sir William Luce, one of the many governors of Aden, who played a significant role in running that particular protectorate.

The description that my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) gave of Britain’s involvement in the region was a tour de force. He is another person who, by birth—

[Bob Stewart]

Not by birth—I was made in Germany.

[Mr Ellwood]

Not by birth—firmly stated. My hon. Friend referred to the role of the Royal Marines and the military. He also touched on something that others have elaborated on: the expansion of Daesh or ISIL in these pockets. Extremism in any form looks for vacuums of governance, and that is what we are seeing in Yemen. Unfortunately, al-Qaeda has been established in Yemen for an awfully long time. The plans for the Charlie Hebdo attack, for example, originated in Yemen. It is a hotbed of extremism.

[Bob Stewart]

It would interest me, and perhaps everyone else, if the Minister were able to answer this question: is Daesh actually at war with AQ in the Arabian Peninsula? That would be a good thing.

[Mr Ellwood]

The relationship between the two is very complex indeed. There are places where they team up together, where there are local ceasefires and where they have a localised objective and work together, but in principle, they are competitors. I do not want to wander down this avenue too much, but al-Qaeda is seeking to exert change in western understanding of and influence in the middle east, whereas Daesh is trying to create a caliphate and its own space within the middle east. They have different philosophies completely but are both very active in Yemen; that is the trouble.

My hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham also spoke about the Houthis, and I hope he does not mind my correcting him—he called them Shi’as. It is important to distinguish between the Zaydis and the Twelvers—the Iranian Shi’as. They are different forms of Islam.

[Bob Stewart]

I accept the reprimand. I did know it, but—

[Bob Stewart]

Sorry, Mr Turner.

[Mr Ellwood]

I always want to listen to my hon. Friend; he speaks volumes.

It is a delight to see the hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (Ms Ahmed-Sheikh) in her place. She has a lot of knowledge of middle eastern matters. She spoke of the Daesh threat, which I have covered, and what more work DFID can do in this area. I will pass that on to the Minister of State, Department for International Development, my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest West (Mr Swayne). She also touched on the conduct of war and the importance of watching out for alleged war crimes.

I will cover another basic issue that was raised: the sale of arms to Saudi Arabia. Nations have a right to defend themselves. They also have a right to join in coalitions and, if invited, to participate and to protect another country. President Hadi has made that request. The coalition has been formed. Had that not happened, the Houthis would have flushed out any legitimate Government support, all the way down to the port of Aden. We must keep a careful watch on the conduct of war, but we have the right to sell arms. We have one of the most robust arms sales policies and one of the most transparent export programmes in the world.

[Catherine West]

Can the Minister rule out that any British-manufactured arms have been used in this conflict by coalition partners?

[Mr Ellwood]

I can confirm that they probably have been used. We sell arms to Saudi Arabia. They are using weapons systems that we sell. The more pertinent question is: are they being used responsibly? That is the more important question. We need to ensure they are used in a responsible manner.

[Catherine West]

Is that therefore a breach of our arms export guidelines in this conflict?

[Mr Ellwood]

No, it is not. I will make it very clear: the coalition that has been formed is legitimate. The legal basis for military intervention follows President Hadi’s request to the United Nations Security Council and, indeed, the Gulf Co-operation Council, in support of UN Security Council resolution 2216, for

“all means and measures to protect Yemen and deter Houthi aggression”.

Therefore, the concept and principle of using warfare in such a manner is legitimate; the real issue, widely put by everyone, is about making sure that any arms are used according to the Geneva conventions. That is what we need to ensure and to find out. If there is evidence to suggest otherwise, we will look at things. As we have discussed in the main Chamber in the case of Israel, we review export licences if evidence is given to us to suggest that equipment has not been used as agreed.

[Keith Vaz]

I thank the Minister for the way in which he has engaged with the all-party group. He has been very willing to meet us and to discuss these matters.

May I take him back to something he said earlier? The crucial point of the APG report is the need for a ceasefire. The Minister has said that the Government are working on that at the UN, but when can it come before the Security Council? I know that Ministers have been urging a ceasefire in private, but we need a public statement and a resolution before the UN. When can that happen?

[Mr Ellwood]

I am happy to call for that publicly, but all our efforts are being conducted through the UN envoy. The same applies in Libya, where we are working with Bernardino Leon, the UN envoy there. We have staff working with Ismail Cheikh; I speak to him to offer our support; and individuals have been seconded to his office to assist him. He has conducted a number of meetings, bringing the Houthis together with representatives of President Hadi, to map out the details. Those meetings will reconvene in the very near future—that is where the ceasefire will be mapped out.

[Keith Vaz]

I will be quick. So the Minister is being clear today, and the British Government’s position is clear to everyone: we want a ceasefire now.

[Mr Ellwood]

Absolutely. We do want a ceasefire now. I am sorry if there was any confusion about that. I made that clear in the discussions in New York as well. Until we have the ceasefire, we will not be able to get the humanitarian logistics into the country without the people involved being harmed or under threat. I am happy to underline that, but that is all being led by the UN envoy. The only way that a ceasefire will come about is not through a UN Security Council resolution, as has been said, although that would be an indication of where we want to go, but through the parties themselves signing up to it.

[Stephen Gethins]

A number of excellent points have been made, but on facilitating the ceasefire, my hon. Friend the Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (Ms Ahmed-Sheikh) and I asked about any help from or co-operation with the Government of Oman, who are playing a role in bringing together the parties at the moment. Will the Minister comment on that?

[Mr Ellwood]

Yes, indeed. Given Oman’s important relationships within the middle east—the hon. Gentleman must be aware of how Oman fits in with Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and so on—it is playing a pivotal role, with perhaps more going on behind the scenes than public perception would suggest. Oman is very much involved in what is happening.

I will now turn to some of the questions asked by the hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green, the Labour spokesperson. I am not sure whether she is standing in for someone today—nevertheless, she is very welcome. Going back to the conduct of the war, she called for an independent assessment and for a ceasefire, which I can confirm.

The hon. Lady touched on a difficult subject that we debated in the Westminster Hall Chamber only last week: child soldiers. The use of child soldiers is absolutely appalling—the whole House can condemn that. UN figures suggest that more than 80% of the use of child soldiers in Yemen is by the Houthis, but we condemn such use by anyone at all. We have taken various measures and led on measures at the UN to prevent that from happening. She also talked about the British influence and what we can do in Yemen. I have articulated several things, but we can concur on support for the UN envoy.

The UK remains a key partner of Yemen, in particular since the start of its political transition back in 2011. The existing situation is of grave concern to us all, so I welcome the opportunity today to debate the matter.

[Alison Thewliss]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Ellwood]

I will not, because the hon. Lady has not been present for the full debate—

[Alison Thewliss]

I have.

[Mr Ellwood]

Then I stand corrected—but she did not contribute. I will give way.

[Alison Thewliss]

I was not sure that I would have the time to speak in the debate, so I had not prepared anything, and that was why I did not speak.

Given the situation described in the APG report, will the Minister share that report with his colleagues in the Home Office, because the approach that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is taking is in complete contrast with that of decision makers in the Home Office? They want to send people who have been in this country since 2009 back to a war zone, which is not acceptable. If it is not acceptable for Glaswegians to go to Yemen, it is not acceptable for our adopted Glaswegians who have been here since 2009 either.

[Mr Ellwood]

I will certainly share the report with the Home Office. There are already robust processes in place, but I will certainly pass it on to the Home Office and we will ask that Department to reply directly to the APG.

Before the end of 2014, Yemen had been making steady progress on the initiative brokered by the Gulf Co-operation Council in 2011. That initiative had committed all parties to a national dialogue conference, a new constitution and national elections. The national dialogue conference agreed a vision for Yemen that formed the basis for the new constitution, of which we saw the first draft in January. Regrettably, as hon. Members know, since September last year the Houthis, with support from forces loyal to former President Saleh, have taken matters into their own hands, staging a takeover of the legitimate Government of President Hadi and of key state institutions, putting the whole transition into jeopardy.

The Houthi and Saleh groups’ use of military means to achieve their political aims is not only unacceptable, but a clear violation of the 1994 constitution and the principles of the Gulf Co-operation Council initiative. What is more, those groups have forced Yemen’s legitimate Government out of the country, repeatedly attacked Saudi Arabia’s borders throughout the year and seized territory and heavy weapons throughout Yemen. They are holding thousands of political activists in prison and they have prevented access to humanitarian aid, showing a blatant disregard for the safety of civilians.

With conflict risks becoming prolonged, we are already witnessing catastrophic human consequences, as we have heard in the debate today. Suffering has reached unprecedented levels, with more than 21 million Yemenis or 80% of the population in urgent need of humanitarian assistance. In fact, UNICEF warned recently that in al-Hudaydah governorate alone, 96,000 children are starving and at risk of death. Without immediate and decisive action to end the conflict and the humanitarian crisis, Yemen may face a famine by the end of the year.

[Mrs Cheryl Gillan in the Chair]

The UN Security Council has been clear in its condemnation of the actions by Houthi and pro-Saleh forces, but it is the responsibility of all parties to the conflict to ensure access for humanitarian aid. That is why we continue to call on the Yemeni authorities to grant access to all Yemeni ports for commercial and humanitarian shipping. We welcome the agreement to establish a UN verification inspection mechanism, as mentioned by a couple of hon. Members, but we urge its speedy implementation to remove clearance procedures for humanitarian shipments. Many ships are stuck out in the Red sea, unable to get into port.

The risk that groups such as al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula and ISIL in Yemen will benefit from the continuing instability is another disastrous potential consequence of the conflict. That threat was most recently demonstrated by ISIL in Yemen with its co-ordinated multiple attacks in Aden on 6 October, which claimed the lives of 15 people and injured many more. The British Government condemn such attacks unequivocally. Countering the terrorist threat remains our top priority.

To be clear, I therefore very much welcome the crucial role of the Saudi-led coalition in reversing the military advance of the Houthis and the forces loyal to former President Saleh. That has helped to create the conditions for the legitimate Yemeni Government to return to the country under Vice-President Bahah.

I will write to hon. Members if I have not covered any other points. The area remains one of critical concern and includes huge suffering for the Yemeni people caught up in those horrific events. The position of the British Government is clear: a ceasefire and an inclusive political solution is the only way in which to achieve long-term peace and stability. The UK stands with the international community in supporting fully UN efforts to achieve dialogue and to deal with the dire humanitarian situation.

Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)).

Oral Answers to Questions

Tobias Ellwood Excerpts

Tuesday 20th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Oliver Dowden (Hertsmere) (Con)]

7. What assessment he has made of the implications for his policies of recent violence in Israel and the Palestinian territories.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Tobias Ellwood)]

We are deeply concerned by the recent violence and terrorist attacks across the occupied Palestinian territories and Israel. Our immediate focus is on urging all sides to encourage calm, take steps to de-escalate and avoid any measures that could further inflame the situation.

[Oliver Dowden]

Does the Minister agree that there can be no justification whatsoever for random terror attacks on Israelis in the streets of Israel? They are just like us: normal people trying to go about their ordinary lives. We should be absolutely clear in condemning that sort of activity.

[Mr Ellwood]

I absolutely concur with my hon. Friend and condemn the violence that has taken place across Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories. There is no place for the sorts of terrorist attacks we have seen, and the effect they are having on innocent civilians’ sense of safety is appalling.

[Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)]

Are not the deaths of an Eritrean immigrant who was just murdered in Beersheba by Israeli thugs, the deaths of seven Israelis and the deaths of 40 Palestinians the direct consequence of Netanyahu’s refusal to grant freedom to Palestine, the illegal wall, the illegal settlements, the 500 check points and the persistent desecration of the al-Aqsa mosque by Israeli settlers? Will the Government take action to get Netanyahu to the conference table?

[Mr Ellwood]

We recognise that there are frustrations due to the lack of progress towards peace, and we share those frustrations. The peace process was launched more than two decades ago, yet we still have not achieved the two-state solution that was envisaged, but there is absolutely no justification for the sorts of attacks we have seen.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

25. Does the Minister agree that it certainly does not help that the Palestinian Authority encourages incitement against Israel?

[Mr Ellwood]

President Abbas has condemned the use of violence and reiterated the Palestinian Authority’s commitment to reaching a political solution by peaceful means. We have seen tensions spike in the past, but it does seem different this time, with young people seemingly unafraid of death and brandishing knives, knowing what the consequences will be. The pattern so far has been one of lone wolf, low-tech attacks, but the escalation and the tensions are certainly worrying.

[Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)]

13. What discussions has the Minister had with the Israeli Prime Minister regarding the Gaza reconstruction mechanism? One hundred thousand people have been displaced, and no homes have been built since July. What are we doing about that?

[Mr Ellwood]

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that Prime Minister Netanyahu visited recently. We have been making every effort to promote calm. The Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary have spoken to key regional leaders over the recent weeks, and British officials have been pressing both sides to take steps to de-escalate the situation.

[John Howell (Henley) (Con)]

22. What assessment has the Minister made about the significant damage to the holy site of Joseph’s tomb at Nablus, which was destroyed by up to 100 Palestinian rioters?

[Mr Ellwood]

I strongly condemn the burning of the tomb of Joseph in Nablus. The basic right of freedom to worship in safety and security should be protected for all. We have called for a swift and transparent investigation into the incident and for those responsible to be brought to justice.

[Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)]

As Israeli civilians are being stabbed and murdered by Palestinians on virtually a daily basis, a Rafah cleric, in his sermon on 9 October, brandished a knife and called for Palestinians to slaughter Jews in a holy war. Is it not time that the nature of this incitement was recognised and combated if there is ever going to be hope for peace and justice?

[Mr Ellwood]

As I say, the Foreign Secretary spoke to President Abbas last week. We are encouraging him to work with Prime Minister Netanyahu. We are also aware that the US is looking at the situation very closely, and Secretary Kerry is ready to visit the region when appropriate.

[Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)]

20. Earlier this month, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas proclaimed:“We welcome every drop of blood spilled in Jerusalem…With the help of Allah, every martyr will be in heaven, and every wounded will get his reward.”Does my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary share my concern that such provocative remarks have fuelled the recent wave of deadly attacks on Israel? What more can we do to help?

[Mr Ellwood]

There has been too much provocation on both sides. The current violence underlines the fact that a lasting resolution that ends the occupation and delivers peace for Israelis and Palestinians is long overdue. We have been round this buoy many times. The Oslo accords seem in the far distant past, and the tensions are ratcheting up again. We call on both sides to come together.

[Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab)]

Does the Minister agree that all murders and attacks on civilians are unacceptable? That includes knife attacks on Israeli civilians and also settler attacks on Palestinian civilians that have been running into the hundreds for several years now. Will he join Amnesty International, Israeli human rights organisations and the United Nations in expressing concern at the increasing use of live ammunition by Israeli troops and police, even when life and limb are not immediately under threat, because that fuels a lot of the tension that we are seeing now?

[Mr Ellwood]

We can recall what has happened in the past when the violence has ratcheted up to the levels that we are seeing today. That is why we are urging all sides to come together to avoid what we have seen in the past.

[Sir Eric Pickles (Brentwood and Ongar) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend recall the words of our right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in his speech to the Knesset last year? He said:

“I will always stand up for the right of Israel to defend its citizens. A right enshrined in international law, in natural justice and fundamental morality”

Does my hon. Friend believe that it is now time for us to review our relationship with the Palestinian authorities? Would it not be better to pay directly to the projects themselves rather than through the Palestinian authorities so that British taxpayers could have a better assurance that the money is going to Palestinians rather than being siphoned off as a stipend to terrorists?

[Mr Ellwood]

My right hon. Friend articulates the strength of the tensions and the need for us to come together. As I say, peace has eluded that country and the Palestinian authorities for years now. It is important that we take advantage of John Kerry’s offer to visit the region in the very near future.

[Royston Smith (Southampton, Itchen) (Con)]

8. What diplomatic steps his Department is taking to secure a stable Government in Libya.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Tobias Ellwood)]

On 8 October, UN special representative Bernardino León announced details of the political settlement in Libya, urging Libyan parties to agree the deal before 21 October. Yesterday I attended a meeting of international partners hosted in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to discuss robust support for a Government of national accord.

[Royston Smith]

Everyone in this Chamber will welcome the progress towards a new national Government in Libya. However, we have been here before, so will the Minister commit to reviewing our approach to Libya in the event that the timeline for a national Government is breached?

[Mr Ellwood]

If I may correct my hon. Friend, we have not quite been at this point before. We are on the eve of signing a peace document to get a Government of unity, but we are not there yet. That will happen next week. If it does not happen, the difficulties faced by Libya—including not only the current migration patterns, but, most importantly, ISIL developing a foothold there—will continue.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Prime Minister used to be so proud of this country’s intervention in Libya. Surely we should be seen as taking a much stronger role in trying to bring all the parties together so that Libya can have some sort of future and its people can live in peace.

[Mr Ellwood]

I am slightly puzzled by the hon. Gentleman’s question, because we have been at the forefront of engaging with the parties in the very difficult aftermath of Gaddafi’s fall. We offered to assist back in 2012 and 2013. We were invited to leave the country, along with other UN organisations. We have encouraged, through the UN and working with Bernardino León and the Prime Minister’s envoy, Jonathan Powell, the bringing of the parties together. No country could have done more.

[Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)]

Although I would not dare to try to emulate Sir Peter Tapsell, does my hon. Friend recall that originally Libya was made up of Tripolitania and Cyrenaica? Does he not believe that if the worst comes to the worst, it may be necessary, because they are two very different peoples, to divide Libya?

[Mr Ellwood]

My hon. Friend is correct, although he misses out a third region, namely Fezzan, and it was the Italians who brought the country together. As well as those three regions, there are more than 135 tribes, including 35 main tribes. They have been sat on by a dictator for 40 years, and lifting the lid off that results in society trying to flex its muscles. That is the difficulty and challenge we face.

[Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP)]

9. What support his Department is providing for refugees in camps along the Syria-Turkey border.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab)]

10. What discussions he has had with his international counterparts on establishing an authoritative figure for the number of people killed in the second Gulf war and its aftermath; and if he will make a statement.

[Mr Ellwood]

I frequently discuss Iraq with my international counterparts. The Government have not produced any estimate for the number of Iraqis killed as a result of terrorism and war-related violence since 2003, although we are aware that others do so. Our focus today is on supporting the Government of Iraq in their efforts to build a more stable and secure future for their people.

[Mr Allen]

It is amazing that the British Government do not have a clue how many people have been killed by the British and American forces’ adventure in Iraq; I hope the Minister will find an accurate figure for Parliament. Does he regard the invasion of Iraq as a success?

[Mr Ellwood]

I did say that there are others, including the Iraqis themselves, who have put together those numbers, and I am more than happy to share those with the hon. Gentleman if he wants to see them. With regard to the decision to invade Iraq, lessons have certainly been learned. We await the Chilcot inquiry, but I recall that after the invasion a diktat went around the Department for International Development saying that the war was illegal, so in Basra we went from being liberators to occupiers. That is not the way to do it. There are lessons to be learned, and we are learning such lessons and applying them in Iraq today.

[Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab)]

12. What recent assessment he has made of the situation in Syria.

Child Suicide Bombers

Tobias Ellwood Excerpts

Tuesday 13th October 2015 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Tobias Ellwood)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Evans. I join other Members in congratulating the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Roger Mullin) on securing this important debate and on his measured contribution. He struck the right tone. I also thank him for his personal comments. My family and I are grateful for the manner in which he raised those issues.

I thank other hon. Members for their contributions, and I welcome the shadow Minister to his role. He and I have known each other for some time, although not for 23 years—I have not been here that long. He comes from a Home Office background, and he has huge experience of security matters. I am pleased to see him with a Foreign Office brief. He will have much to contribute.

The hon. Member for Glasgow North (Patrick Grady) covered a number of issues concerning Nigeria and Yemen, which I will address. The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), who is a regular contributor to such debates, is unfortunately not able to be in the Chamber, but he highlighted the brainwashing of children, which I will also address. I will focus primarily on the remarks, comments and thoughts of the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath.

The use of children as suicide bombers is a grave issue, and I am sure the House is united in its condemnation and deep sadness at the practice. As we have been reminded just this weekend in Turkey, any suicide bombing is a tragedy, and the use of children as weapons in that way is truly heartbreaking. Children involved in suicide attacks, as elsewhere in armed conflicts, are first and foremost victims, not perpetrators, as the shadow Minister said. Sadly, the use of children in conflict is nothing new. For example, thousands of children fought in the Napoleonic wars and in many conflicts since, including both world wars. In more recent times, children have fought in conflicts in places such as Cambodia, Colombia, Sri Lanka, the Philippines, Uganda, Chad, Burundi, Sierra Leone, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Rwanda, Sudan and Somalia. There is a long list of countries in which such tragic events have taken place.

What is new is the horrifying way in which children are being used as instruments of violence. As has been said today, it is a chosen form of combat. Children are lured with false promises of paradise in the afterlife, or forcibly coerced by terrorist organisations, into carrying out suicide bombings against both state and civilian targets. The nature of conflict is changing, but the way in which terrorist groups in particular exploit the most vulnerable in society in pursuit of ever more barbaric attacks is both abhorrent and cowardly.

I will set out the need both to work towards resolution of specific conflicts and to seek to address the underlying issue of extremism, which can lead to such appalling acts of violence. I will also address the four measures mentioned by the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath. The increasing spread of suicide attacks has principally been driven by two armed groups that have been mentioned today—ISIL in Iraq and Syria, and Boko Haram mainly in north-eastern in Nigeria—although we remain deeply concerned about the use of such tactics by other terrorist groups, including groups in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

ISIL has used co-ordinated suicide attacks as a key part of its military strategy, and we have seen reports of children in isolated areas being forced into military training after the militant group closed their schools, leaving an estimated total of more than 670,000 children without the opportunity to receive a proper education. ISIL bombards the internet daily with shocking images of children with weapons, and even of children being present at executions. As the hon. Gentleman said, the Iraqi Ministry of Human Rights estimated in May that ISIL may have trained up to 1,000 children as suicide bombers since November 2014. A major step towards eradicating the abuse of children as suicide bombers is to attack the organisations that recruit them. We are utterly clear in our determination to defeat ISIL. The only way to relieve the suffering of children and adults affected by ISIL, and to counter the real and significant threat to the UK and our allies, is to defeat ISIL and establish peace and stability in the region.

Another worrying trend is the way in which ISIL, in particular, is luring young people to Iraq and Syria, as hon. Members have said. More than 700 UK-linked individuals have travelled to Iraq and Syria in recent years, and we know of at least six British nationals who have carried out suicide bombings, the youngest of whom was only 17. The problem is not confined to the so-called foreign fighters; we have also been shocked by the stories of young schoolchildren turning their backs on the safety of family and homes in the UK and of parents bringing their infant children with them into harm’s way in Syria.

In response, earlier this year, the Government introduced new legislation in the Counter-Terrorism and Security Act 2015, which provides the police with temporary powers to seize a passport at the border and places the Government’s deradicalisation programme, Channel, on a statutory footing. There will be new powers to add to existing terrorism prevention and investigation measures, and there will be targeted discretionary powers to control the return to the UK of British nationals suspected of terrorism offences. There will be enhanced aviation security powers, too, and insurers will be prohibited from reimbursing payments made in response to terrorist demands.

Internationally, the UK is at the forefront of global efforts to counter ISIL. In the UN, we supported the adoption of resolution 2178 calling on all countries to take appropriate measures to stem the flow of foreign fighters to Iraq and Syria. The UK is playing a leading role in the global coalition of more than 60 nations committed to defeating ISIL. Together, we are working to defeat ISIL on all fronts: militarily; cutting off ISIL’s finances; reducing the influx of fighters; challenging ISIL’s ideology, and providing humanitarian assistance.

Boko Haram has regularly used child suicide bombers in Nigeria and neighbouring countries. It deliberately targets the weak and vulnerable, and it aims to sow seeds of unrest between communities. We estimate that more than 20,000 people have been killed and more than 2.2 million displaced by the insurgency. The use of children as suicide bombers is a particularly heinous example of this terrorist organisation’s brutality, but we remain firm in our commitment to Nigeria and its regional partners in their fight against terrorism. We are providing a substantial package of UK military intelligence and development support to Nigeria, which includes increased training programmes and advice on counter-insurgency and counter-terrorism. We have also provided £5 million to support a regional taskforce against Boko Haram itself. Like ISIL, Boko Haram must be defeated, and we are determined to ensure that it is.

More broadly, as we have seen in conflicts across the world, children continue to be used as soldiers. We are working with the UN, which leads the international response on that issue. The response includes pressing parties listed in the UN Secretary-General’s annual report on children and armed conflict to enter into concrete action plans with the UN to verify and release any child soldiers associated with armed groups and forces. We also support the campaign of the Secretary-General’s special representative to end the recruitment and use of children by Government armed forces in conflict by 2016. The UK is providing £150,000 in funding over three years to support the UN office of the special representative, which has served to increase the special representative’s capacity to monitor emerging situations of concern, in line with Security Council resolutions 1612, 1882 and 1998 on children and armed conflict. The UK has also contributed funding to support a child protection adviser in the African Union to strengthen AU policies on preventing child soldier recruitment.

The UK recognises that education is important to preventing recruitment in the first place. We have therefore allocated more than £110 million for protection, psychological support and education under the “No Lost Generation” initiative since it was launched in 2013. Partners include the Department for International Development, UNICEF, the EU and Save the Children. The initiative aims to avert having a lost generation by ensuring that every Syrian child gets a good-quality education and access to child protection and much-needed psychological support. The partners have worked with host Governments in the region in an effort to mobilise predictable long-term finance in support of national educational sector plans with strategies for refugee children to access education through public schools and alternative education provision.

On the four specific proposals mentioned by the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath in his speech—I was grateful to receive them beforehand, so I have no excuse for not replying to them—he first raised the importance of understanding the entire issue. The Government’s cross-departmental research, information and communications unit conducts research on a wide variety of issues related to counter-terrorism and counter-extremism. One such report, issued in February, analysed the use of children in ISIL propaganda, which has escalated in recent months, although we have yet to see an ISIL video that actually includes a child suicide bomber. The Government also continue to draw on the wealth of academic research being carried out in this country and others.

Secondly, the hon. Gentleman raised the importance of countering the indoctrination of children. Defeating terrorism is a job for us all, as the Opposition spokesman described. That means that individuals, families, communities and Governments must work together to expose the hateful beliefs of extremists, deny them space in which to operate and protect those who are vulnerable to radicalisation. One aspect of the Prevent strand of the UK counter-terrorism strategy is to protect vulnerable people, including children, from being drawn into terrorism. We are also working closely with international partners to address extremist material online and mobilise civil society to challenge extremism and find more effective ways to counter ISIL’s messaging.

Thirdly, the hon. Gentleman asked about creating a taskforce to address the issue. Although there are currently no plans to do so, I reassure him that the Government consult a wide range of stakeholders and experts as part of the policy-making process and will continue to do so as our extremism strategy is announced and rolled out in the coming months to ensure that it is as effective as possible.

Finally, the hon. Gentleman mentioned the plight of unaccompanied refugee children. Through the Syrian vulnerable persons relocation scheme, the UK is helping some of the most vulnerable refugees, including survivors of torture, women and children at risk and those in need of urgent medical treatment. As the Prime Minister announced on 7 September, we will expand the existing scheme to resettle up to 20,000 Syrians in need of protection during this Parliament. I stress that that is in addition to those whom we resettle under the gateway and mandate schemes and the thousands who receive protection in the UK under normal asylum procedures.

[Mr Hanson]

On that point, can the Minister shed any light on this? He has mentioned again the figure of 20,000 during the course of this Parliament. Does he have any indication of how many of that 20,000 he expects, let us say, within the next nine months, which will be a critical time given where we are in the refugee crisis?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Ellwood]

The Prime Minister has appointed my hon. Friend the Member for Watford (Richard Harrington) to be the Refugees Minister, and he answered questions on that issue yesterday. It is not for us to do the actual selection—it is being done through UN agencies—so I cannot give the right hon. Gentleman the specific number, but I will write to him with more details about how the process is forming. Time permits me to cover some of the other points raised by the right hon. Gentleman. He asked how many attacks are being made by children rather than adults. I do not have those statistics to hand, but I will certainly write to him in more detail. He is absolutely right: the approach that we take will differ depending on who is involved, and we will be able to focus in more detail if the numbers prove that in certain areas, children are used in preference to adults.

The right hon. Gentleman also raised the use of social media. That is the big difference between non-state violence today and 10 or 15 years ago: a terrorist group based in far-off, distant countries can reach families and individuals here in the UK and in other parts of the world. I was astonished and taken aback when I saw the horrific images on television of the Jordanian pilot who was burned alive, but three weeks after that event, several teenagers made the journey from the UK via Turkey into Syria after seeing ISIL’s barbarity and what it stood for. It reflects, as the right hon. Gentleman said, the work that needs to be done with our communities to ensure that such people understand where they are going and what will happen to them when they join ISIL on the front line.

The use of social media is critical, and it is fair to say that we are only now coming to terms with how it is being leveraged. The information that ISIL produces online does not have to be accurate or legal, but every counter-message that we put out needs to be. I am hosting a summit at the end of this month on online extremism. We are inviting Facebook, Google, Twitter and a number of other organisations whose sites are used as vehicles by extremist organisations to pass along messages to share common practice on how to get the upper hand in countering such messages.

I also co-chair the smaller working group on strategic communications as part of the larger counter-ISIL taskforce, working with the United Arab Emirates and the United States. The Sawab centre has been set up in Abu Dhabi to monitor Twitter feeds and provide replies to some of the messages that we are seeing there, to ensure that there is an alternative view and that when ISIL puts out messages to attract people, there are imams there to say, “This is wrong. This is not how Islam should be interpreted.” It is a major step forward in countering that online messaging. It was launched last month and is already having huge success.

The Prime Minister has also announced £10 million to be spent on a co-ordination cell in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to draw together experiences not only of what we are doing in the UK, for example through the Prevent strategy, but of what other countries around the world are doing to counter extremism and the ability of such organisations—not only ISIL and Boko Haram—to recruit the young and vulnerable in society.

The right hon. Gentleman asked what more we can do in the region. I will probably have to write to him in more detail on that, but I will give the example of Tunisia. The people who attacked Sousse in June were trained by ISIL extremists in Libya. We are now working with Tunisia on a series of levels: first, on first responders, with which he will be familiar; secondly, on gathering intelligence for a better understanding of the networks operating in that country; thirdly, on tackling the ideology itself, which goes to the core of the work that needs to be done on social media and so forth.

Finally, the right hon. Gentleman said that this is a war crime. He is absolutely correct; it is. Where it has been possible to track down those who have been grooming and training, via the internet or otherwise, arrests have been made.

It is very important to have this debate, not only for the Government to place on record what we have been doing, but so that we can understand the mood and concern expressed by parliamentary colleagues who want Britain to do more in the face of this immense challenge. As we heard today, children continue to be targeted, coerced and exploited during conflict, and that includes children abused by being used as suicide bombers. We must do everything we can to end those abhorrent abuses, which means degrading and defeating barbaric organisations such as ISIL and Boko Haram and working with our partners in the region and around the world.

We must also continue to use our diplomatic, security and intelligence capabilities as part of the Contest programmes—our counter-terrorism strategy—that we run to pursue and disrupt terrorist organisations where they threaten the UK and our interests overseas. Critically, as the Prime Minister said at the General Assembly of the UN last week, we must

“take away the building blocks of extremism that lead people to an extremist world view, that then takes them to an extremist terrorist view.”

In the appalling cases that we discussed today, that view can lead them to exploit and murder children.

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath for the opportunity to set out the Government’s position today and to hear the views of parliamentary colleagues.

Ministerial Correction

Tobias Ellwood Excerpts

Monday 12th October 2015 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Tobias Ellwood)]

During the Westminster Hall debate “Arms Sales (Human Rights)” on Thursday, 17 September (HC Deb, col 407WH) I told my right hon. Friend, the Member for Twickenham (Dr Mathias), that Bahrain was “an example of a country that is on the list of concern”, referring to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s list of 27 countries of human rights concern, as set out in the 2014 Annual Human Rights and Democracy Report. In fact, Bahrain was not featured in the report as a country of concern, but rather as a country case study: http://www.hrdreport. fco.gov.uk/country-case-study-bahrain-reform-implementation.

Country case studies were introduced in 2012 as a way to report on countries which do not meet the overall threshold for a country of concern, but which we judge nonetheless to be facing human rights challenges, or to be on a trajectory of change with regard to their human rights performance.

[HCWS223]

Civilians in Syria

Tobias Ellwood Excerpts

Monday 12th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Tobias Ellwood)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Batley and Spen (Jo Cox) on securing this important debate. She brings a huge amount of expertise to the House, which is very welcome. I have just returned from the UN General Assembly, where this subject was very much on the agenda. She went into a huge amount of detail, but I am sorry that she chose to wander down a bit of a political path. I will write to her with more details on the issue of British leadership. As my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) said, unless we have a UN resolution, it is very hard to march forward. I am afraid that, on more than one occasion, either China or Russia has vetoed attempts to move this situation forward. I also disagree with her about the choice between ISIS or Assad. We have never made that statement—quite the opposite, in fact.

I am sorry that we are debating this matter for only 30 minutes. The sheer number of Members in the Chamber on a Monday evening on a one-line Whip shows that this is a very important matter. I hope that the usual channels are listening, and I urge them to consider a far longer debate on the subject. [Interruption.] Let me finish. We are meeting our 2% of GDP commitment and our 0.7% official development assistance commitment. With a long history in the middle east, we have the ability and desire to do more to assist in this terrible conflict, but we seek consensus over how we might do that. A fuller debate would explore how these matters might be pursued in more detail.

The Syrian civil war is now in its fifth year. As the hon. Lady has said, 250,000 people have been killed, almost 8 million displaced internally and more than 4 million refugees created. This is a crisis caused and fuelled by the Assad regime, which is responsible for the vast majority of deaths. Almost 90% of the civilian deaths are a result of the regime’s indiscriminate bombing, its shelling of urban areas, its siege tactics and its use of chemical and toxic substances. This instability has fuelled a migration crisis that affects neighbouring countries, the wider region and Europe as well.

Assad’s failure to recognise the Sunni people, who make up two thirds of the country’s population, has acted as a recruiting sergeant for ISIL. Today, ISIL poses a threat not just to the region but wider afield to the UK as well. The horrific attacks in Sousse, Kuwait, France, Australia, Turkey and elsewhere demonstrate that the threat knows no borders. But alone, Assad has neither the intent nor the capability to defeat ISIL. The ultimate solution both to the migration crisis and the threats emanating from Syria is a political transition that involves a mechanism for Assad to step down. It is for the Syrian people to decide exactly how that happens. It may be part of a transition process, but the process cannot be open-ended, and Assad can have no part in Syria’s future.

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)]

rose—

[Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab)]

rose—

[Mr Ellwood]

I will not give way, because of the time.

The UK supports the efforts of the UN envoy, Staffan de Mistura, who faces a complex and challenging task. The UN Security Council and the wider international community must support Mr de Mistura’s efforts as he works with the Syrian parties to deliver a political process that brings about an inclusive transition.

[Graham Jones]

rose—

[Mr Ellwood]

No, I will not give way.

The Russian Government’s increased support for Assad has further complicated an already complex situation. They must take responsibility for their part in escalating the Syrian war. By predominantly hitting non-ISIL targets, they will only fuel more extremism and more radicalisation.

We call on Russia to cease its attacks on the Syrian opposition and civilians and to focus its efforts on ISIL. Observers of the middle east will know that Russia’s strong links with and interests in Syria are not new. Secret agreements offering diplomatic and political support were signed even before Syria gained its independence from France. The Soviets offered military help to form the Syrian army in the first place and Hafez al-Assad sided with the Soviets during the cold war and agreed the permanent basing of naval, land and air assets. This is not just about global posturing but Russia’s actions in shoring up a tyrant who was on his way out, and it will lead to Russia’s losing influence in the long term.

It took six days for Russia to strike any ISIL targets at all. More than 85% of Russian strikes have been—

[Graham Jones]

rose—

[Mr Ellwood]

I will not give way. I have made it very clear that time is short and I am answering the hon. Member for Batley and Spen. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will hang on to his seat and I will be delighted to speak to him after the debate.

It is clear that Russia’s priority is not to defeat ISIL but to prop up Assad. Russia has violated Turkish airspace three times in the past week and the UK strongly condemns these provocative violations of NATO members’ sovereign airspace. It is important that allies show solidarity to ensure the inviolability of NATO airspace is respected, so we call on Russia to stop targeting civilians and opposition groups, which are part of the future of Syria. This is Russia’s biggest air deployment beyond its borders since the cold war, with fast jets, helicopters, unmanned aerial vehicles, electronic warfare and air defence systems propping up an ailing Syrian regime whose military is exhausted, depleted and demoralised.

Russia’s entry, with all its propaganda, will no doubt delay a resolution and the political transition about which the hon. Member for Batley and Spen spoke rather than expediting them. It will also widen the extremism footprint for Russia, as significant numbers of foreign fighters supporting ISIL will no doubt react to Putin’s actions.

The hon. Lady mentioned safe zones, and I have taken a lot of time over the summer to consider the issue in detail. We will continue to look at all options along with our allies to protect civilians in Syria. There has been talk of safe or protected zones, no-fly zones and so on, but history tells us that implementing genuinely safe zones is difficult and must be accompanied by an international mandate that would provide the will, the authority and the full means to ensure that they have a chance of being effective. It would also involve significant military commitment. As we have seen, that can be hard to come by from the various Parliaments across the world.

We should also bear in mind the legal justification for intervention in another country has five means. One is a UN Security Council resolution—

[Mr Mitchell]

rose—

[Mr Ellwood]

I will not give way. The other legitimate means for engagement include article 51 of the UN Charter, or the right collectively to defend others, or intervention to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe, as we saw in Kosovo. The final such means is an invitation by the leader, which is what we saw in Iraq.

The hon. Member for Batley and Spen mentioned the humanitarian situation. The UK has been at the forefront of the humanitarian response to the conflict in Syria. I am pleased to say that we have pledged more than £1.1 billion in aid in response to the crisis in Syria and the region. I visited the Zaatari camp in north Jordan in the summer and my hon. Friend the Minister for the Armed Forces, who is in her place, has just come back from Azraq. I am pleased to say that we are seeing how well British money is spent. It is clear that refugees want to stay in the region where they have family and cultural ties, and the cost of housing one refugee in the UK equates to supporting more than 20 refugees locally. Let me make it clear that the standard of that support is very different, but that just illustrates the difficult decisions people are having to make in every country about how much money we spend domestically and how much we spend in the region.

The Prime Minister also announced on 7 September the expansion of the Syrian vulnerable persons relocation scheme to resettle up to 20,000 Syrians in need of protection during this Parliament. Since the crisis began in 2011, the UK has granted asylum to nearly 5,000 Syrian nationals and their dependants.

In conclusion, we are well aware that Syria remains the greatest humanitarian tragedy of our time. We must support the desire of ordinary Syrians for a future free of the cruelty of Assad and the barbarity of ISIL. I end by apologising to Opposition Members for not being able to take interventions. As they can see from my notes, I have plenty more to say on the matter—

[Graham Jones]

Will the Minister give way now?

[Mr Ellwood]

I will not give way, no. The hon. Gentleman is not going to tease me at this last moment. I invite and encourage a wider debate that lasts longer than 30 minutes, which I would very much welcome—

[Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)]

Let’s have one now.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Ellwood]

We can go on later into the night if you want, Mr Speaker, but I think that time is against us. I look forward to debating the matter in further detail. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The business managers can perfectly well facilitate such a debate, and at whatever hour of the night it took place I should be very happy to be in my place. Obviously a lot of people have things to say and would like to do so.

Question put and agreed to.

Arms Sales (Human Rights)

Tobias Ellwood Excerpts

Thursday 17th September 2015 Westminster Hall

[Sir David Amess (in the Chair)]

Order. There is so little time and we still have two Members before the wind-ups. However, if the Minister wants to intervene, he may do so.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Tobias Ellwood)]

I just want to respond to this issue that has come up many times. I will not have enough time to respond to everything, but on this particular point on Yemen, President Hadi has invited support because of what is happening with the Houthis. Other countries have been invited to assist a country in need in the same way that President Abadi in Iraq has invited us to assist his country in dealing with a threat. That is why Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates are involved in south Yemen.

[Tom Brake]

They may have been invited in, but if countries such as Saudi, which are supplied with UK weapons, are acting indiscriminately in that country, we need to be concerned.

Clearly, there is a role for a strong UK arms industry. It creates jobs and helps technological development, but there is certainly no role for a UK arms industry that exports weapons made here to repress people in other countries.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Tobias Ellwood)]

Thank you, Sir David. It is a pleasure to be able to call you that, and I am delighted to work under your chairmanship today. I begin by joining others in paying tribute to the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd). She has a formidable reputation in this House going back many years. She has been consistent not only on this issue, but on wider humanitarian concerns. It is no surprise that she is at the forefront of this debate today. I echo the tributes paid to Robin Cook and the work that he did on this area and to Sir John Stanley, who continues to be active in these areas. I met him only a few days ago to discuss these matters.

To make it clear, I will not have the opportunity to answer all the questions, but as I have done in the past, I will write to Members personally and individually—I am looking at my officers behind me—to ensure that each question is answered in detail. I have done that before and I will honour that today. Ten minutes does not do these debates justice.

I will touch on some of the important contributions, and I echo the comments on the standard and importance of this debate. It is a healthy debate for the House to have. My hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Dr Mathias) mentioned cluster munitions, as did the shadow Minister, the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn)—I have got to know him so well that I wanted to say my right hon. Friend; I am pleased to see him in his place and welcome him. I can confirm that cluster munitions are not on sale in any form at the DSEI exhibition. The exhibition is patrolled to ensure that every bit of kit meets the required standard and that such equipment is not on sale.

My hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham also mentioned Bahrain, an example of a country that is on the list of concern, but also a country with which we have a strong military relationship. We do sell it military equipment—air force, navy and army components—but, as in all the cases of countries that are on the Foreign and Commonwealth Office list and with which we have a defence relationship, we make sure that our robust controls are honoured. That allows us to have a strong and robust relationship with countries. Bahrain is a great example of where that allows us to be frank and up front about human rights concerns. I will write to my hon. Friend with the detail on how our experts are working with the Bahraini Government to improve human rights. That is welcome, and we can do it and be frank with them because we have built up that relationship.

The hon. Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell) talked about Daesh and the potential for UK weapons to fall into their hands. I would be grateful to know of any examples. There have been many suggestions that UK equipment might have fallen into the wrong hands, but we need to make a distinction between press reports and evidence. If the hon. Lady has any actual evidence, she should please provide that to us and we will certainly look into it. I am not aware of any evidence on that front.

The same goes for Yemen. I touched on this in an intervention on the right hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake). The coalition was put together at the request of the Yemeni President. UN Security Council resolution 2216 states that all means and measures should be taken to support the country. The Houthis were asked to return and back away from the areas that their military had taken over. They refused to do so, which is why military action was confirmed. There is the potential that the military equipment that has been sold could be used, but that would be deemed a legitimate use of those weapons systems. It comes down to the fundamental right, guaranteed in article 51 of the UN charter and mentioned by the shadow Minister, for any country to have the means and the right to defend itself, or to provide support to other countries for the same reason.

[Tom Brake]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Ellwood]

If the right hon. Gentleman does not mind, I will not because I have so much to get through. If there is time at the end, I will certainly come back to him.

The hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) is no longer present, but his views on this matter have been consistent. He spoke about the humanitarian crisis in Yemen, which certainly worries me. All the humanitarian aid is currently coming through the port of Aden. Until the port of Hodeidah is liberated, the humanitarian crisis will not be avoided. In fact, we are one step away from famine breaking out in Yemen, affecting some 20 million people. The international community should certainly be concerned about that, but we can all be proud of the British humanitarian contribution in providing aid and support to that country.

The hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Dr Cameron) spoke about the connection between conflict and poverty, on which I agree with her. She also made it clear that, as a clinical psychologist, she has experience and brings expertise to the House, which is very much to be welcomed. I absolutely agree with her ambition to remove those children who are in uniform and put them into school uniforms. If I may, I will write to her with more detail on the programmes we are involved in to make that happen. That is exactly what we should be doing.

The hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela Rayner) began by quoting Matthew 5:9—“Blessed are the peacemakers”. I wrote that down and underlined “makers”. How do we make peace? That is a big debate in its own right. She also discussed the causes of the crisis and looking at ways to deal with the source of the problem, not just those who are running away from it. The House will soon have to look in detail at what more we might want to do in relation to Iraq and Syria.

The hon. Member for Cardiff Central (Jo Stevens) spoke about another very important area: what has happened in Israel. There was huge scrutiny of the most recent events that unfortunately unfolded in front of the world’s eyes. We have to recognise that Israel lives in a very difficult neighbourhood, confronting Hamas on one side and Hezbollah on the other. Arms exports came under huge scrutiny during those events, but Israel does have the right to defend itself, and we conducted the necessary reviews to ensure that our robust rules, which have been mentioned a number of times, actually fell into place. The hon. Lady spoke with particular passion and, may I say, expertise, and if she would like to meet to discuss the issue in more detail, I would be delighted to do so.

The right hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington, on whom I intervened, also spoke about UK weapons being used for oppression. I return to the fundamental question about our ability to have influence in a country by having not only a defence relationship with it, but a relationship right across the spectrum, in order to have influence on the improvement of human rights. Again, if he is aware that any UK weapons systems are used for oppression, it is important that he makes me aware of that.

[Tom Brake]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Ellwood]

I did say that I would give way to the right hon. Gentleman. I have about three minutes left, so I hope he can be brief.

[Tom Brake]

There have been many reports that in Yemen the Saudis are using weapons that we are supplying to them indiscriminately. Is the Minister willing to investigate that?

[Mr Ellwood]

I visited the United Arab Emirates only last week, and what is happening in Yemen, from the military campaign to the humanitarian issues, came up in our discussions. I am interested in any and every aspect of what we are doing in Yemen. If any reports with bona fide evidence suggest that that is happening, we would be the first to ask how our arms exports are being used. That applies not only there but in every situation, which absolutely must be the case.

The hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Margaret Ferrier) discussed a specific case. She said she would write with more detail; I do not know whether I am the Minister to whom she was going to write, but I would be more than delighted not only for her to write to me but to meet her to discuss that case.

The hon. Member for Edmonton (Kate Osamor) spoke about Saudi Arabia. I do not have enough time to go into everything now, but I have a whole list of areas—such as human rights, labour reform, migrant worker reform, political reform, and the elections taking place in which women are participating for the first time—in which things are moving forward. They are not moving forward as much as everyone would like; sometimes progress is slow, particularly in countries with a more conservative approach where reform can be difficult, but we are making inroads and progress. I will write to the hon. Lady with specific details about what is happening in Saudi Arabia.

The Scottish National party spokesman, the hon. Member for Glasgow North (Patrick Grady), spoke in detail about the arms trade treaty. I think I can answer his outstanding questions in the affirmative, but, again, I will write in more detail to clarify the Government’s position in relation to all his questions.

The shadow Minister gave a very measured response, which I was pleased to hear. He underlined the importance of article 51 on the right of individual countries to defend themselves.

I am left with exactly one minute for my speech, but I will try to articulate the main messages by reiterating that, as Members would anticipate me saying, we take arms export responsibilities very seriously. We aim to operate one of the most robust, vigorous and transparent systems in the world. Our core objective in export licensing is to promote global security and prevent controlled goods from falling into the wrong hands, while at the same time facilitating responsible exports and supporting British businesses. I make it clear that as we develop relationships with various countries, we very much scrutinise what is actually happening, and if we think there is something untoward, we try to correct it.

Human Rights (Saudi Arabia)

Tobias Ellwood Excerpts

Tuesday 21st July 2015 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Tobias Ellwood)]

It is a pleasure to work under your experienced chairmanship, Mr Chope. I begin, as others have done, by congratulating the hon. Member for Glasgow South (Stewart McDonald) on securing the debate. I will not try to say which names are which, but I was grateful for the clarification at the beginning.

I will say as a general remark that this debate has been informative and constructive. From a personal perspective, it is good to see new Members of Parliament from the Scottish National party come here with such a depth of knowledge and interest, and such a commitment to these issues. It is healthy and important to have them at such debates, along with those of the older generation who are regulars at them; I am only sorry that there are not more Members from my party to match them. However, I am pleased that we are here to place on record our relationship with Saudi Arabia and the important human rights aspect of that relationship.

It is worth placing in context where we stand. The UK and Saudi Arabia have a long history of friendship, understanding and co-operation. That relationship is rooted in defence, security, trade and investment, as hon. Members have mentioned. There are many bilateral challenges and opportunities, as has also been said, including Iraq and Syria, ISIL and Daesh and the changes taking place with the new Iranian nuclear deal. As the Opposition spokesperson, the hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) also mentioned, Yemen is also an issue.

It is important to remind ourselves that the people of Britain have strong bilateral links with Saudi Arabia. Millions of Muslims travel to Saudi Arabia every year to perform the Hajj and Umrah pilgrimages and to visit the holy sites of Mecca and Medina. I understand that 18,000 Britons completed the Hajj in 2014. The bilateral relationship is strong, which allows us to have frank conversations, often behind the scenes.

My speech has now been ruined by my scribbles in trying to answer all the questions that have been asked in this interesting debate. As I have done in the past, I will do my best to respond now, but if I do not, I will ensure that we scroll through Hansard and write to hon. Members individually to give them more details about the important questions that they have asked.

Saudi Arabia and Britain are essential partners and good friends. As a long-time friend of Saudi Arabia, we are able to have honest and meaningful conversations with the Saudi Arabian Government about all issues, including human rights. To be frank, sometimes those conversations are difficult. We remain deeply concerned about Saudi Arabia’s use of the death penalty, restricted access to justice, the women’s rights situation and continued restrictions on freedom of expression, freedom of assembly and religious freedom.

[Margaret Ferrier]

One issue that has not been mentioned is human trafficking, rates of which are extremely high in Saudi Arabia. The kingdom is currently designated by the USA as a country of particular concern. The Saudi Arabian Government do not comply with the minimum standards for eliminating trafficking and are not making significant efforts to do so; they have moved from tier 2 to tier 3 due to their lack of progress on anti-trafficking efforts, particularly their failure to protect victims and prosecute those guilty of involuntary servitude. Will the Minister look at that as well?

[Mr Ellwood]

I will certainly come to those matters if time permits.

The Government’s view is a matter of public record, and we continue to make our views known in public and in private through multilateral and bilateral channels. We use the UN universal periodic review process and the FCO’s annual human rights and democracy report, which has been mentioned several times, including by the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), as well as our own diplomatic engagement with the Saudi Arabian authorities, to raise such concerns at all levels.

We can and do give tough messages, but we must recognise the crucial point that Saudi culture is deeply rooted in widely held conservative social values. We usually judge that our human rights concerns are best raised in private, and we will continue to work with the Saudi Arabian authorities and those in Saudi society advocating human rights reform, but we will continue to stand up for the full range of human rights. That is at the core of the strategy that we are discussing. Many—including, I think, the hon. Member for Glasgow South; I apologise if I misunderstood his tone—have advocated that we should somehow back away and not trade with that country because we should stand up for certain human rights issues. Forgive me if that is incorrect; if so, I will allow him to correct it. If we were to do so, would we give up an opportunity to have influence at the front line in favour of shouting from afar?

[Jeremy Corbyn]

The Minister mentioned the UN Human Rights Council’s universal periodic review, which was very strict and raised many complaints about Saudi Arabia. What are the Government doing to monitor progress on that? Is the UN going to send any special rapporteurs to Saudi Arabia, and have the Saudi Arabian Government agreed to that process?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Ellwood]

Again, that is a rather large section of my remarks, and I hope to come to it shortly, so I will continue to make progress.

[Kerry McCarthy]

On a more general point, the Minister says that representations are being made behind the scenes and that that is the best way to influence the Saudi regime. Can he point to instances in which he feels that British influence has actually made a difference to the Saudis’ record on human rights? What changes has he seen as a result of our representations?

[Mr Ellwood]

Again, I need to make some progress, and then I will answer those questions. It is important, if we have these debates, that we can see progress being made. We must be able to see movement forward. I will give some illustrations of that and of instances in which Britain is trying to assist in that progress.

Turning to some of the specific questions that have been asked, the hon. Member for Glasgow South asked about the lowering of the flag on the death of King Abdullah. I should make it clear that it is a long-standing convention to half-mast the Union flag on Government buildings following the death of any foreign monarch. That is the convention; it was not specifically to do with that particular case.

Many hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Glasgow South, spoke at length about the Raif Badawi case. I give the hon. Gentleman the same answer I gave in the main Chamber: the case is in the supreme court and is under review. We therefore cannot interfere with that process, in the same way that the Saudi authorities would not interfere with our process.

[Stewart McDonald]

rose—

[Mr Ellwood]

The hon. Gentleman raised two specific issues, so I shall just make a couple of points, which might answer the questions that he might be about to ask me yet again.

Raif Badawi has been found guilty of various charges. We strongly condemn the sentence passed, but we must honour the judicial process. Once that process has been completed, we can then take stock and comment on the process itself, but we must be careful not to interfere with it.

[Stewart McDonald]

rose—

[Mr Ellwood]

The hon. Gentleman is keen to interject, so I will give way.

[Stewart McDonald]

I am grateful to the Minister. May I press upon him again, as I tried to do earlier, that it is not a normal justice system? He is asking me, and people across the world, to have confidence in the system that put Mr Badawi where he is now. Is the Minister seriously going to stand up with a straight face and ask us to do that? It is nothing short of a joke. It is the same justice system that bestowed upon Mr Badawi a prison sentence, a fine and 1,000 lashes. Minister, we can do better than this.

[Mr Ellwood]

The case has returned to the supreme court, which reflects the fact that the leadership has taken stock of international opinion and what people have said. The punishment has stopped and is under review. Until that process moves forward, it would be incorrect to comment on another country’s judicial process. That would be interfering, in the same way that the Saudi authorities would be interfering in our processes if they commented on them.

The hon. Gentleman asked whether the ambassador should request to visit Raif Badawi. We will not advocate that; again, it would inappropriate. Raif Badawi is not a British citizen as such. Once the sentence is upheld, we can obviously look at making contact, but it is not appropriate for our ambassador. That would, again, be seen as interfering with the process. A non-governmental organisation would be in a better position to make that judgment, rather than another country’s ambassador going in to see a citizen to whom the ambassador has no direct connection.

[Stewart McDonald]

Given what the Minister has said, will he ask the Saudi Government if it would be possible for Amnesty International to visit Mr Badawi in prison?

[Mr Ellwood]

Absolutely; we can certainly put that forward. I would be delighted to make that request.

Religious tolerance and the situation of Christian and other minority religions have been raised in the debate. The British Government strongly support the right to freedom of religion or belief, which is restricted in Saudi Arabia. As the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) is aware, our views on the subject are well known. We must recognise that the restrictions on freedom of religion or belief in Saudi Arabia reflect widely held conservative social values in Saudi society. The key to increasing freedom is to focus on tolerance. We must work with Saudi Arabia to identify areas in which different faiths can work together, foster trust and build slowly in more challenging areas.

[Jim Shannon]

I referred in my speech to the 28 Christians who were arrested. Men, women and children have disappeared into the ether of Saudi Arabian society and into the prison system. I know that the Minister is unable to respond today, and I respect that, but could he respond directly to me, and perhaps to other hon. Members present in the Chamber?

[Mr Ellwood]

I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for the work that he has done in this area. He has raised such issues with regard to a number of arenas, not only Saudi Arabia. I do not have the information he seeks at hand, but I will certainly write to him with more details, if I may.

The hon. Member for Islington North raised the important issue of migrant rights. He also touched on Qatar, which I visited recently. I will not digress now, but I will write to him on that point; we have seen progress, in which Britain has been very much involved.

As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, the amnesty for foreign workers to regularise their status in Saudi Arabia came into affect in 2013. It led to many people—1.5 million, I think—leaving the country. The Saudi Government have now agreed updated bilateral arrangements with a number of labour-supplying countries for legalised workers to remain in Saudi Arabia. We also expect to see more accurate labour records, and recent legal reforms will improve the basic rights of migrant employees. Legislation requires workers to be paid at least monthly and have access to their own identity documents, and domestic workers to have at least nine hours’ rest per day and one day off per week. We welcome any improvement in the legal position of migrant workers. Those are steps in the right direction, but clearly there is more work to be done.

The hon. Member for Bristol East raised the question of the imprisoned princesses. I will write to her with more details, but we have received no further reports since King Salman’s accession to the throne in January.

Export licences are another an important subject, given the closeness we have to Saudi Arabia. I make it absolutely clear that we have a robust mechanism in the UK. All exports of arms and controlled military goods are assessed on a case by case basis against the consolidated EU exporting licensing criteria. Concerns about excessive use of force and arbitrary arrest by police and security forces are considered extremely carefully.

In answer to the question about what progress has actually been made, I put my hand up and say that of course serious barriers remain and we want to see a huge amount of progress. The Saudi Arabian Government have confirmed that women will now be able to stand and vote for the first time in municipal elections, which will take place in December 2015. There are already women on the Shura Council, and we understand that 80 women will be standing, across 285 municipalities. There is obviously a long way to go, and we continue to engage with the Saudi authorities, but that is an example of real progress.

Saudi Arabia has also ratified the convention against torture, but, as has been articulated today, allegations of torture continue to be heard, particularly from political activists. We are pressing to work together to implement the requirements of international obligations, particularly human rights conventions. The Saudi Government have recently allowed the quasi-independent body the National Society for Human Rights free access to all prisons and prisoners to assess claims of torture and abuse. That needs to be placed in its context, which includes Raif Badawi.

The Saudi Ministry of Justice continues to implement an ambitious $1.6 billion reform programme. More than $1.2 billion has been spent on new courthouses, technology and judicial training. Special courts in family, commercial and labour law are planned. The appeal court and new supreme court have increased access to justice, and a new arbitration department has been formed to reduce the number of trial cases. Nevertheless, the legal system continues to suffer long delays in bringing defendants to court, and delays due to the lack of codification of case law. We have raised our concerns about that, and there are signs that trials are becoming more transparent, with the media and diplomatic community being given access to some trials. We also expect people to be brought to trial more quickly as the number of judges increases.

We have a strong and important relationship with a key ally in the region. I thank right hon. and hon. Members for this thought-provoking debate. I apologise for the fact that I have not been able to go into all the details in the answers that I have given today, but I will certainly write to colleagues with a more informative response.

I wish to make it clear that human rights are at the heart of UK foreign policy. Asthe Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs has stated:

“It is in the UK’s national interest to help our international partners promote, protect and enjoy human rights; and to find effective ways to tackle violations wherever they occur.”

We have concerns about the human rights situation in Saudi Arabia, which we will continue to raise, but we also recognise that progress has been made. Clearly, more needs to be done. Our friendship with Saudi Arabia affords frank and open dialogue, and we continue to use our close relationship to ensure that the incremental process we are seeing is only the beginning.