Arrangement of Business

Lord True Excerpts

Thursday 8th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, it is my understanding that in the other place the Prime Minister is leading a debate on the energy crisis and her proposals. As it is a debate and not a Statement, can the Government give some thought and hold discussions in the usual channels to arrange for a debate in government time in this House to discuss this most pressing issue?

As Opposition Chief Whip, I congratulate the noble Baroness on her appointment as Government Chief Whip. She is both a popular and a highly effective Member of your Lordships’ House. I look forward to working with her again.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ashton of Hyde, for his service as Government Chief Whip. I always enjoyed working with him; he was kind, courteous and straight in all our dealings. I always enjoyed our conversations that took place many times during the day and even sometimes into the night.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, if I might—unusually—respond on a usual channels question, I should like to thank the noble Lord for his kind words about my noble friend Lord Ashton, which are widely shared, and about my noble friend Lady Williams. I think this poor old man will often need a helping hand to stop him stumbling and I cannot think of a securer colleague than the noble Baroness.

As for the fundamentally important question that the noble Lord poses, which perhaps goes a little wider than the energy question, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister indicated yesterday a set of what she considers the urgent requirements for the country. They may well eventuate in provisions being laid before Parliament, which it would be my duty to make sure your Lordships’ House has the opportunity to discuss. I fully take his point about the nature of the debate in the other place meaning that I am not standing here repeating a Statement on energy. This is a question of fundamental importance, and I can give an undertaking that we will take it away and have those discussions in the usual channels to see how we can accommodate your Lordships’ House.

Government: Ministerial Changes

Lord True Excerpts

Wednesday 7th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, of course I echo the tributes made so eloquently to my noble friend Lady Evans of Bowes Park, which I shall not be able to match. I wholeheartedly add my own, and am only sad that she is not here to hear the warmth of feeling towards her in the House—but I am sure that she knows that, and has known it, and will see it in Hansard.

My noble friend served your Lordships’ House as Leader for six years, and did so with determination, tenacity and always great good humour. I can bear out what was said—that she consistently and forcefully made the case for your Lordships’ House within government. I have to say that, having had the benefit of being on a Cabinet committee with her, I heard some pretty robust language there when she has been defending your Lordships’ House and its place in our national life. She always defended this place. On a personal level, as noble Lords have already said, she has been a source of great support not only to many of my noble friends but to people across the House. She has provided leadership and morale in difficult times.

Even from my noble friend’s earliest days in the House as a Government Whip, as has been alluded to, when she came leaping forward from being a junior Whip, she acted without fear or favour. I remember an occasion when the late Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon was not abiding by the speaking limit in debate. Despite his concerted attempts to continue, the noble Baroness finally quelled him. Anybody who knew the great Paddy Ashdown will know that it was not very easy to quieten him down.

My noble friend’s sheer dedication was very much the reason for her longevity in the role. She was the youngest Leader in modern times and, as the noble and learned Lord said, it was daunting. Imagine being so young and looking all this august and fearful company and having to lead. She was the first Leader to serve under two different Prime Ministers since Lord Shepherd and the longest-serving female Leader, as well as the longest-serving Leader of the House since the first Viscount Addison, who left office in 1951. Even Viscount Addison beat her by only 31 days. To think that she slogged away for six years and then missed that record by only 31 days—I wonder whether she will ever forgive me.

As other noble Lords have said, it has been a turbulent time, with Brexit and Covid and all the more recent events with the war. The House has lived through exceptional times. I totally agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Newby, said about the experience of Covid and the sudden and different ways in which we had to operate, which was not something that many Peers liked. The thing I hated most since I became a Minister was sitting at my table, trying to answer questions.

My noble friend led and she was instrumental in seeing that the work of the House should and must go on. The hybridisation of the House was one of the most dramatic and sudden changes in history. She led that and led the way in ensuring the House could function safely and embrace the technology and, while many of us were comfortable at home, she and her team were here in Parliament every single day that the House was sitting. For that continuity, I think we all owe a debt of gratitude.

My noble friend is always fun to be with, and that is a very important quality in politics. I hope we in this House never forget, for all the gravity and seriousness of the things we deal with, the importance of fun, fairness and respect. She is an exceptionally generous and kindly person, as has been said and as many can testify. I offer, with all others who have spoken, our thanks to her and best wishes for the next chapter of her life.

I would also like to take a moment, as others have, to pay tribute to the outgoing Government Chief Whip, my noble friend Lord Ashton of Hyde. He will hate this because he is not that sort of person, but the role of Chief Whip is not for the faint of heart and he has undertaken it with characteristic compassion and diligence. I know I speak for the whole House when I wish him the very best for the future. We look forward to seeing him around the House—especially on voting days, Henry.

Finally, I thank those from across the House who have spoken to me, sent messages of support and been kind today about my appointment. However, I say emphatically that this is not a time to talk about me, and particularly not a time for me to talk about me—in any case, that is not something I am ever very keen on doing. I will do my utmost, I pledge to noble Lords, to uphold the ethos and traditions of this House that I love. I want this House, on all sides, to be a happy and comfortable place where, for all our differences—passionate and proper differences—every Peer feels that their views are valued. I look forward to working with noble Lords across the House to meet those responsibilities.

Financial Services Bill

Lord True Excerpts

3rd reading & Report stage
Monday 19th April 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, we are grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, for bringing forward these amendments, which would enable individuals to obtain cashback from retail settings without first having to make a purchase. We have not spent a huge deal of time discussing access to cash during the Bill’s passage, which is a surprise given the challenges we face in this area. It is beyond doubt that the Covid-19 pandemic has accelerated the transition to cashless payment, but this does not mean that cash is becoming obsolete. Many millions of people continue to feel most comfortable making physical payments. While small businesses have access to low-cost options for taking card payments, many will still prefer to deal with cash.

While we welcome this initiative, I hope the Minister can briefly touch on the Government’s response to the wider challenge we face with access to cash, such as the continued closure of bank branches. It is also worth noting that, while people may soon be able to access cash more easily, these amendments do not deal with the fact that some businesses have chosen no longer to accept it. That is their choice, of course, but acceptance is as important as access. I urge the Government to accept these amendments, which would be beneficial to an important part of society.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, I join the expressions of sadness at the news of the death of the noble Lord, Lord Judd, such a tireless campaigner for all the causes he held dear. Even though we meet, of necessity, in an almost entirely empty House, it says everything about the noble Lord that one feels that one particular place over there is empty. Our thoughts go out not only to his family, particularly, but to all those in the Labour Party family who were inspired by his example and loved him as a man.

Amendments 37D and 40A seek to facilitate the provision of cashback without a purchase. I say at the outset to the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral and others that the Government will support these amendments. The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, is able to divine the language of draftsmen even better than I am.

These amendments introduce an exemption for cashback without a purchase, such that it will no longer be a regulated payment service. Under the current legislation, which derives from the EU’s second payment services directive, if a business or its agent, such as a corner shop or supermarket, wanted to offer you cashback without requiring you to make a purchase, it would have to be authorised or registered with the FCA to give you cash from your own accounts. That is a significant burden for even the largest of retailers, let alone small, local shops along the various high streets across the UK.

This amendment removes this requirement; it will take effect two months after Royal Assent. From that point, industry will have discretion to make the service available across the United Kingdom. Where the service is offered, customers will be able to walk into a local business that wishes to participate, such as a corner shop, café or pub, and withdraw cash without having to make an accompanying purchase.

As part of the community access-to-cash pilots, LINK—the UK’s main ATM cash machine network—and PayPoint are already testing a cashback without purchase service in a small number of local stores in Cambuslang, Hay-on-Wye, Burslem and Denny. Indications from this trial are positive, and the Government look forward to the outcomes. This amendment will allow for such initiatives to be rolled out across the UK more easily.

The Government recognise that, as my noble friend Lord Holmes of Richmond said, widespread access to cash remains and will remain extremely important to the daily lives of millions of people across the United Kingdom. Although it was not possible in time for this Bill, I can certainly assure the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, that the Government have committed to legislate to protect access to cash and to ensure the cash infrastructure is sustainable in the longer term.

The Government published a call for evidence on access to cash in October 2020. This highlighted the potential benefit of facilitating cashback without a purchase through legislation. Cashback with a purchase was in 2019 the second most frequently used method of withdrawing cash in the UK, behind ATMs. As my noble friend Lord Holmes of Richmond told us, there were 123 million cashback transactions, amounting to a total amount withdrawn of £3.8 billion.

The Government’s view is that cashback without a purchase has the potential to be a valuable facility to cash users and to play an important role in the UK’s cash infrastructure. This legislative change, which is possible only now we have left the European Union, would help both to support the availability of cash withdrawal facilities across the United Kingdom, benefiting individuals’ access to cash, and to support local cash recycling. These amendments are therefore a welcome step towards protecting access to cash.

I am particularly grateful to my noble friend Lord Holmes of Richmond, who raised this important issue in Grand Committee, for the constructive way he has engaged with the Government and officials since then on this important issue. I am very pleased to be able to say that the Government are proud to support these amendments. Meanwhile, as I covered in my earlier remarks, the Government are considering responses to the call for evidence and look forward to setting out next steps on legislation to protect access to cash in due course.

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate on such an important issue. Cash still matters, and it matters materially to millions. I thank particularly my noble friend the Minister for the way in which he and all Treasury officials have engaged with this issue. It is a key part, but, as other noble Lords have rightly identified, only one part, of what it means to have a cash-enabled, easily accessed economy across the UK. It adds to financial inclusion. More than that, it adds to complete social inclusion.

We all need to think innovatively about how we can do more to enable, empower and unleash true financial inclusion across the UK. It matters economically, socially and psychologically. If we can enable it, it can address so many of the issues that have dogged our nations for decades.

Again, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed, and I thank particularly the Minister and Treasury officials.

Financial Services Bill

Lord True Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 24th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Eatwell (Lab)]

My Lords, the measures in this Bill that refer to Gibraltar essentially create a single financial market, and an essential component of a single financial market should be a single registry standard. So I want to ask the Government about their approach to this. When they decided to promote the measures in the Bill in support of Gibraltar, did Her Majesty’s Treasury conduct a review of the Gibraltar registry, and could the Minister tell us the result of that review? For example, could he tell us whether the Gibraltar registry is as transparent as that of Companies House?

Noble Lords will be well aware, after Committee, that my opinion of the Companies House registry is pretty low, in particular regarding its inability to provide a verified register of beneficial ownership, which is at the foundation of the right reverend Prelate’s concern with tax issues. So could the Minister assure us that the Gibraltar registry has a verified register of beneficial ownership, as well as being transparent?

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, I certainly regret, along with others, that the right reverend Prelate was unable to be here to speak to his amendment, but we fully understand the reasons for that. Obviously, the House has great respect for his expertise in these financial matters. We are grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, for delivering aspects of his speech.

In response to the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, who raised an issue relating to state aid, I should say for the record that the issue he raised is a legacy state aid issue, relating entirely to the period when the UK was a member of the European Union. The Government of Gibraltar have already recovered some of the aid and continue to work to recover the outstanding aid, in compliance with the European Commission’s decision to bring this case to a satisfactory conclusion as fast as possible.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, we welcome the re-tabling of Amendment 11 by my noble friend Lord Stevenson, which provides the Minister with an opportunity to give more detail on the intention behind the Government’s introduction of the statutory debt management scheme. We are grateful to the Minister and his officials for the various meetings that have taken place in recent weeks. We hope that, even once the Bill has passed, there will be opportunities for further cross-party dialogue on issues relating to personal debt, financial resilience and so on.

There was a lively debate on this issue in Grand Committee, and various amendments were tabled by colleagues from across the Committee. Despite the number of amendments, almost all noble Lords were united in saying that the Government must get on with introducing the scheme. Amendment 12 from the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, co-signed by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans, deals with some slightly broader issues relating to problem debt. We hope that the Minister can provide a full response to those points, either now or in writing.

Looking at these amendments and the next group on BNPL and financial exclusion, I am struck by just how important it is to adopt a more holistic approach to personal finance, as proposed by my noble friend Lord Stevenson in his previous amendment on the concept of financial well-being. Helping people with debt has to be important. I have trouble understanding how people cope with that situation. It is the role of the state to provide structures to allow people to take on their debt problems in a managed way. I look forward to the Minister’s response to my noble friend’s amendment.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity to respond to the debate. I genuinely thank all noble Lords who spoke in Committee and who have spoken today and, indeed, those with whom I have had the privilege of meeting and discussing these matters of engagement. All the discussions have been useful, and the Government have certainly listened to them. I hope that in my letter which I have placed in the Library of the House and my remarks this evening, I will be able to assure noble Lords that that is the position.

What I have found most pleasing is a sense of unanimity, which is rare in this House, that we are on the right track as regards seeking a scheme of this kind. The SDRP is a new solution for those who are in problem debt. It will provide a revised, long-term agreement between the debtor and creditors. Debtors will be protected from most credit enforcement action and from certain interests and charges on debts in the plan. Following the Committee stage and the valuable discussions I have referred to, I wrote to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, and my noble friend Lord Lucas with further details. The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, referred to aspects of that letter. However, the Library of your Lordships’ House is not open to everyone, particularly at this time. Given its importance to today’s debate, I hope that your Lordships will indulge me if I take some time to place on public record some of the key commitments set out in it because they are commitments which have been made on behalf of the Government. I also want to ensure that all noble Lords understand the timings the Government are working to.

I spoke in Committee in response to the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, about the range of support being given by the Government to people at this difficult time, and she is quite right to refer to those difficulties. In the meantime, as we work on the SDRP, the Government are pushing ahead with the implementation of a breathing space scheme that will come into force on 4 May this year. Other voluntary and statutory debt solutions will continue to be available to debtors to consider in the meantime.

I return to the process which has been of interest to many noble Lords. The Treasury is currently drafting regulations for the SDRP and intends to consult on them as soon as possible after the Financial Services Bill receives Royal Assent. As well as preparing the regulations, the Treasury will also need to work with the Insolvency Service and others to implement new IT systems and develop scheme guidance to aid stakeholders in implementing the policy. It is also important, obviously, to give stakeholders adequate time to prepare so that the regime can be implemented properly. Given that, I can confirm that the Government expect the SDRP to be implemented in 2024. In order to achieve that, they will aim to lay the necessary regulations by the end of 2022.

I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, is disappointed at the specifics of my letter on the timing and, indeed, that has been alluded to by others. However, I will repeat that it is the Government’s clear aim and intent, as the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, was kind enough to say, to operate on that timetable with the most appropriate dispatch.

As to why the SDRP regulations might not be able to be laid until the end of 2022, the reality is that the Treasury is currently working on their drafting. I have explained that this is a complex undertaking and will require input from stakeholders both inside and outside the Government to finalise before a consultation on regulations can be published. That consultation will in turn need to give a reasonable length of time—we are often criticised for providing insufficient time for consultation—for stakeholders and members of the public to reflect and respond. We must allow sufficient time beyond that to consider the responses properly. Those views, as appropriate, will need to be reflected in the draft regulations before they are laid. The timetable will also need to accommodate the necessary clearances within Government and Parliament for publications and legislation. However, I know that noble Lords on all sides of the House, including on these Benches, wish for the SDRP to be progressed in a timely manner. The Government have certainly understood the strength of feeling among noble Lords on this matter.

I know that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, wished also to further understand some of the details of the regime; as he has made clear, that is what his probing Amendment 11 seeks to explore. So I repeat on the public record that the details of the SDRP regime will be set out in affirmative secondary legislation, so Parliament will be able to consider the exact details close to the time. I also reassure noble Lords that Section 7 of the Financial Guidance and Claims Act 2018, as amended by Clause 34 of the Bill, will contain powers to allow the Government to include such features in the SDRP as suggested in the amendment. However, in response to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, I will set out further detail on how the Government expect the regime to function.

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Moved by

[Lord True]

13: Clause 34, page 40, line 31, leave out “subsection (5)” and insert “section 7(5) of that Act”
Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for the Minister's amendment at page 40, line 14.

Financial Services Bill

Lord True Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 10th March 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the case for reform in this area has been overwhelmingly made by my noble friends Lord Stevenson and Lord Griffiths, the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer. I wish not to delay the Committee any longer, but simply to advise that the Labour Front Bench supports my noble friend Lord Stevenson’s amendment and the generality of those proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, I acknowledge that the Government have a great deal of sympathy for borrowers who are unable to switch their mortgage, and we are committed to finding practical ways to help them. That is why we have been working closely with the FCA, and I will set out the action that it has taken.

In 2019, the FCA introduced a modified affordability assessment, which allows active mortgage lenders to waive the normal affordability checks for borrowers with inactive lenders who meet certain criteria—for example, not being in arrears and not wishing to borrow more. As a result of this, inactive lenders have been contacting borrowers who have had difficulty with switching, setting out new options that may be available for them on the active market. I am pleased that a number of lenders, including Halifax, NatWest and Santander, have already come forward with options specifically for these borrowers.

More widely, we have taken steps to support those unable to make mortgage payments during the pandemic. Payment holidays have provided vital support for consumers, including those with inactive lenders, with over 2.75 million mortgage holidays granted since March 2020.

However, policy should be based on clear evidence. The FCA’s analysis found that customers with inactive lenders paid, on average, just 0.4% more than customers in the active market with similar characteristics. There has been comment in Committee on that figure. The FCA’s analysis also found that, of the 250,000 borrowers with inactive lenders, half were in a position to switch to a new mortgage even before any action from the Government. That illustrates one aspect of the diversity of this group.

On the 0.4%, I am aware that there are other estimates out there, including in a recent report, which has been referred to, published by the UK Mortgage Prisoners action group on 8 March, just a few days ago. Treasury officials have reviewed this analysis and noted that these figures seem to be based on surveys with small sample sizes. The comparisons are often inappropriate—for example, contrasting rates that many borrowers with active lenders would not even be offered. I hope that noble Lords will appreciate that this is a complex topic. We are, as I have said, committed to finding practical ways to help.

Amendment 99 seeks to cap standard variable rate mortgages for some customers. Data from the FCA suggest that the majority of borrowers with inactive lenders pay less than 3.5% interest. As I have already said, compared to those with similar lending characteristics, consumers with inactive lenders pay on average only 0.4% more than those with an active lender. This was also backed by the London School of Economics recent report on mortgage prisoners, noting that it does not recommend capping standard variable rates at a low rate. Capping mortgages with inactive lenders could have an impact on their financial stability, as it would restrict lenders’ ability to vary rates in line with market conditions. That would also be unfair to borrowers in the active lending sector, particularly those in arrears, who are paying a higher standard variable rate.

Amendment 116 seeks to provide new fixed interest rate deals for certain mortgage customers with inactive lenders. I have already set out the FCA’s work in introducing a modified affordability assessment and that a number of active lenders—household names—have come forward with offers. The FCA estimates that up to 55,000 borrowers could be eligible to benefit from the new modified affordability assessments. The Government will continue to monitor the situation and hope to see even more options available over the coming months. Enabling people to switch into the active market is the best way to help consumers secure new deals, and that is what we have been doing.

Amendment 117 would require active lenders to seek a borrower’s permission before transferring their regulated mortgage contract to an inactive lender. There are already a number of protections in place for borrowers, meaning that their mortgage cannot be sold on to an unregulated servicer and their terms and conditions cannot change as a result of the sale, so the benefit of explicitly seeking permission from the borrower is unlikely to help them any further.

It is required that all loans within the UK must be administered by a regulated entity, meaning that all customers will be able to benefit from consumer protections —for example, access to the FOS. The terms and conditions of a loan do not change upon sale, meaning that consumers will be treated in line with their original agreement even if their loan was sold to an unregulated entity.

As my noble friend Lady Noakes pointed out, the amendment would also risk disrupting the residential mortgage-backed securities market as it may prevent the effective securitisation of mortgages, where beneficial ownership of a portfolio of mortgages is transferred to a special purpose vehicle. Securitisation is a common way for active lenders to fund themselves, and disrupting the securitisation market would likely have a negative impact on the availability and cost of mortgage credit in the United Kingdom. For those reasons, I ask that the amendment be withdrawn.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I thank those who have contributed to this debate for the various points they have raised. The noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, has it right: this is a complex and detailed issue and it delves down way beyond most people’s experience of how markets of this type operate. In those circumstances, we have a difficult choice as a Committee on how one might want to take this forward.

On the one hand, my noble friend Lord Griffiths is right that the end of the story is what is happening on the ground to people who have ended up in this situation through no fault of their own but as a result of government action. The Government therefore have to explain to the people of this country why, having created this problem, they do not feel that they have more than just a moral responsibility to see it resolved. On the other hand, I take absolutely the Minister’s point that, it being a complex issue and the Government having seen some action already happening, they remain committed to what he called finding a practical plan forward; I hold on to that. However, the complexity and the fact that this affects a relatively small number of people—although 250,000 people is not a small number in my terms—do not mean that we should simply allow the market to find the right balance between the commercial pressures of offering loans and the ability to service those loans and make a profit out of them from those who have limited resource. There is no doubt at all that, having said all that, there is obviously a pandemic issue as well.

Where does that leave us? I take hope from the fact that the Minister said that there is work on the way to try to take this forward. I recognise that it is a complex issue—indeed, I said so in my opening remarks. However, he must accept that the arguments made by myself but made in much more detail and with a much wider range of evidence by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, supported by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, suggest that this is more than just a complicated problem which needs to be bottomed out by working with the market. We need convincing that there is work going on that will result in a workable solution of benefit to those affected by this within a reasonable timescale, otherwise we will come back on Report with a better-drafted amendment—perhaps covering some of the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, but not all of them—in a way that makes it clear that the Government cannot continue to let this settle itself. It has to be taken forward in policy terms otherwise too much damage will be caused. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Financial Services Bill

Lord True Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 8th March 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I read all the amendments in this group, and I found myself in support of every one of them. It is an excellent group. We all realise now that Amendment 136F, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, is in the wrong group, which I suspect is why she is not speaking on this group under the heading that I loosely call offences.

Picking up on that theme, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Leigh of Hurley, that he was the victim of an attempted fraud. It is astonishing that action did not follow. When we discuss that group of offences, one of my underlying concerns is about the lack of resources to pursue offences of any kind within the financial services spectrum, so I suspect that that is probably where the resistance has been coming from. It is an area that we need to resource properly, and we need to make sure that when a red flag is raised by an experience such as his there is follow-up, knowing that that will have been one of many attempts to defraud and that some of them will have succeeded. I hope that the Government will look at resourcing.

When I look at quite a number of the amendments in this group, whether on buy now, pay later, bills of sale or mortgage prisoners—which I think we will deal with in more detail later—it strikes me that all of them could have been headed off at the pass as problems if we had had an underlying duty of care. That takes me back to the first group of amendments that we dealt with, because with that in place we would not have had a regulator hanging back to see what the competitive implications were, whether or not various tests were reached and so on. It would have shaped very early the framework within which these activities sat. It really is a very strong argument for that duty of care.

On the excellent Amendment 79, I understand, following Chris Woolard’s report, that we are to expect action. The Woolard report raises the issues in detail; I will not repeat them here today but I will say this: if the FCA does nothing more than introduce an affordability test, which is how it tried to manage the payday lenders, we can guarantee that this House will intervene. We will expect stronger action than that, to make sure this problem is grasped—and not allowed to encourage people to fall into debt which frankly they cannot handle—and to put a proper framework around what is essentially a form of lending. I note in that context that Klarna is described today as the most valuable new start-up in Europe; its rate of growth and the appetite for buy now, pay later should set alarm bells ringing.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, for supporting my Amendment 92. It is a probing amendment that deals with a crucial aspect of financial inclusion—I find echoes of this in some of the words of the noble Lord, Lord Holmes. The inadequacy of basic bank accounts and the reluctance of many of the banks that offer them to engage with the needs of basic bank account customers is an underlying problem. It certainly means that basic bank accounts do not lead to appropriate vehicles for people in the most disadvantaged end to borrow or save, or to engage much more broadly with financial service products. In this day and age, that is a serious issue.

The situation is better today than it was a few years ago; I remember listening to high-street banks who would encourage those coming in to open a basic bank account to go down the street to Nationwide, where they would receive a friendlier reception. Basic bank accounts were regarded just as cost; this was not only inappropriate but meant that those who were welcoming ended up with the greatest share of the burden. I have always taken the view that trying to make an institution provide a service to a customer that they do not want will mean a failed product. We have about 7.5 million people with basic bank accounts and some 1.2 million people completely unbanked. We have to grasp this nettle.

In the United States, intended or not, the approach to people who have been shut out of the financial services system has been different and rather more effective. I would like the Government as well as the regulators to go away and look at it. Under the Community Reinvestment Act 1977, any bank that sought permission to acquire or merge with another bank—something almost every bank was doing at the time—was required to demonstrate that it fully served the disadvantaged communities in its service area. As a civil rights measure, banks were basically red-lining African American, Latin American or Central American communities. They were allowed to serve those communities by supporting local institutions identified as much better fitted to the purpose. This gave a new lease of life to community development financial institutions—CDFIs—of all kinds, including credit unions and community banks. The major banks invested in them to pass that threshold and be able to do acquisitions and mergers, and supported them with expertise in marketing and technology.

I would very much like to see that model here; that is the purpose of my amendment. The DWP’s 2019 report on financial inclusion states:

“Social and community lenders such as credit unions and … CDFIs … provide a lower cost alternative to high-cost lenders, they are small in comparison and lack the visibility and capability to compete at scale. The UK needs a much larger, more vibrant social lending sector”.


CDFIs know the needs of their clients—that is where their work is targeted. They often work with local charities and civil society groups to provide money advice, business advice and a wide range of additional support to make people financially capable.

Some investors in the UK are developing new entities in this space. I am aware of two potential new mutuals, one in the south-west and one in London, targeted at this group of people. The recent report by Ron Kalifa on fintechs identified that new fintechs have the capability to provide a tailored, low-cost offering. But the reality is that very few new players have emerged to serve the excluded sector, which tells me that the system that we have at present is not working. I want all major UK banks to engage with this sector and for the regulator to make it a requirement, not just an act of charity or public relations. That could be done within the banking licence or through regulation, but that would change it from being a passive set of actions to an active way in which to make sure that this gap in the market is filled by people capable of doing it well.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, and others who supported Amendment 93, which deals with the current and accelerating crisis of access to cash. The Government promised legislation at last year’s Budget, but there is no sign of it yet. Covid has driven a sharp drop in cash usage from three in 10 people before the crisis to just one in 10 people. That is a huge drop, but it still leaves about 5 million people who rely on using cash. Of course poverty and age are often a characteristic, but for many people it is a strong cultural preference; they want to use cash, and it is really their right.

As I understand it, the Government are going to follow the direction recommended by the noble Lord, Lord Holmes; they will be able to confirm whether that is correct. That would permit retailers to provide cash without a purchase, which would help, but it is still very hit and miss. The Access to Cash Review done by Natalie Ceeney in 2019 highlighted the fact that retailers’ reluctance to accept cash is driving a lot of the change. Bank branches are closing across the country, especially in rural and disadvantaged communities. LINK, the largest cash machine network, has a contract with the Post Office, but it has about 18 months or so to run. Free-to-use ATMs are disappearing fast; when I talked to the industry, the estimate that I was given was that, if we do not do something quickly, half the ATMs in the country will be pay to use within 18 months.

We will need intervention by the FCA. Lots of commercial companies are involved in the system and any change or rationalisation throws up competition issues. The banks, for example, could be given an obligation to provide free access to cash but then allowed to use a utility model whereby they combine to provide free, shared smart machines capable of a range of services, perhaps with an assistant present to help users to navigate the machines. That changes how we think about this issue quite dramatically—and normally we would have time to do that, but we are now faced with an urgent situation.

I quote one final phrase of Natalie Ceeney’s report, because to me it says it all:

“It is … critical that action is taken now, so that no-one is left behind.”


I recommend that the Government take urgent action to deal with access to cash.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all those who have spoken very genuinely, because we are considering an important group of amendments on consumer access to credit. I am very grateful for the continued and thoughtful interest of noble Lords in this area. I assure all those who have spoken that we are listening carefully and will read this debate.

Amendment 79 would require the Treasury to introduce legislation to bring buy now, pay later products into FCA regulation, to which all speakers referred. The Government are committed to protecting the interests of consumers and, since Second Reading, as the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, said in moving his amendment so ably, the Woolard Review has recommended that these products should be brought into the scope of FCA regulation. The Government are acting swiftly, following the outcome to this review, just as the Economic Secretary committed to do during this Bill’s passage through the other place. That is why, on 2 February, we announced our intention to legislate to bring them into regulation. However, it is important to know that these products are interest free and, therefore, inherently lower risk than most other forms of borrowing, so it is essential that regulation protects customers in a way that ensures that they can continue to use these products to manage their finances, rather than more expensive forms of credit on which they might otherwise rely. The Government therefore intend to consult stakeholders to ensure that a proportionate approach to regulation is achieved.

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[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the last Labour Government were supportive of facilitating access to sharia-compliant financial services, and we understand—and welcome—that Her Majesty’s Government have made similarly helpful noises during their time in office. This is an interesting time for financial services as some firms prioritise divesting from fossil fuel projects, and so on. If such moves are possible, surely we can make progress on services that do not have involvement in industries such as gambling or alcohol?

Amendment 88 raises the issue of sharia-compliant student finance, which was subject to a recent e-petition on the Parliament website. In their response, the Government recalled their consultation on the matter back in 2014 and said that they intend to publish an update on progress later this year. While we appreciate that it takes time to engage with communities to understand their needs, evaluate feedback, devise new schemes and ultimately make them operational, there has been a significant wait for new products, and we need evidence from the Minister that we will soon turn a corner.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, as has been eloquently expressed, these amendments relate to sharia-compliant finance and specifically to the availability of sharia-compliant student finance products. This is an area where the Treasury and the Department for Education are in close contact. The Government are committed to ensuring that all students in England with the potential to benefit from further and higher education are able to access it. I know from this debate and from others that many noble Lords of all parties are keen to see action on this.

On the specific amendments, which the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, stated are probing, Amendment 80 seeks to require the Treasury to publish an assessment of the availability of sharia-compliant financial services, I can assure noble Lords that the Government are committed to ensuring that no UK customer is denied access to competitive financial products because of their faith. As referred to in the debate, the United Kingdom is indeed the leading western hub for Islamic finance, a position we have maintained for several years now. Treasury Ministers and officials conduct regular engagement with key stakeholders in the Islamic finance sector to inform our policies.

Amendment 88 seeks to add access to sharia-compliant student finance to the FCA’s objectives within Section 1B of the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000. It would be ineffective to add this objective because student loans are exempt from FCA regulation, meaning that the FCA would not have the powers to fulfil this duty. Additionally, student finance provision is a devolved matter while the FCA is our UK-wide regulator. Finally, as I have explained, work is under way in government to ensure that all eligible students are able to access student finance.

A number of noble Lords commented on the pace of this work. As the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, said, the Government published a consultation in September 2014 into a potential model that could form the basis of a new student finance product. The Government signalled in the consultation response that they would need to take new primary powers to enable the Secretary of State for Education to make alternative payments in addition to grants and loans. These were secured in the Higher Education and Research Act 2017. The Government have also carried out work with the Islamic Finance Council UK on an alternative student finance product for tuition fee and living cost support compatible with Islamic finance principles.

As has been stated, the implementation of alternative student finance is currently being considered alongside the review of post-18 education and funding. The interim report of that review was published on 21 January and the review is due to conclude alongside the next multi-year spending review. The Government will therefore provide an update on alternative student finance in due course. We should not underestimate the scale of complexity here. The Department for Education is trying to replicate a system of student finance that delivers the same results as now where students do not receive any advantage nor suffer any disadvantage through applying for alternative student finance.

I am sure that our colleagues in the departments concerned have heard the concerns expressed by noble Lords. I hope that, for these reasons, the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Sharkey (LD) [V]]

I thank everybody who has spoken in the debate on this group. I confess that I should have said clearly at the beginning that my amendments and their text were not the issue; the amendments were simply the fossilised remains of my scope negotiations with the Public Bill Office and a means of introducing the subject of sharia-complaint student finance.

I must say that I am, as usual, extremely disappointed by the Minister’s evasive and unconvincing response. It is a great pity. I still do not understand why there has been such a long delay in addressing this serious problem. The Minister has not offered a reason for the delay except to point at various complications. Perhaps I should remind him that the takaful version of the Help to Buy mortgage system was introduced from a standing start in six months. This has taken nearly seven years, and we have not got there yet. I simply do not understand why this is going to be prolonged and why the Minister cannot give us any assurance about a firm date for the introduction of a sharia-compliant student product.

I also do not understand—I never did—why the Augar review is at all relevant; perhaps the Minister can explain why at some other point. However, I understand that the Muslim community continues to suffer a direct disadvantage without any good reason or plausible excuse. The Government are acting in a completely mean-spirited and heartless way. They are failing in their moral duty, failing to fulfil their explicit promises and failing to provide any real comfort that they might eventually do what they should have done long ago. They are behaving neglectfully and really rather disgracefully. We will return to this issue later.

Financial Services Bill

Lord True Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 1st March 2021 Grand Committee

Perhaps they could also take us through how we can rest assured that companies that by the nature of their operations one would expect to be liable to pay taxes in the UK are not able to choose the ongoing relationship with Gibraltarian financial firms in order to avoid those UK liabilities. I think that around the world we are asking for much greater honesty on tax, and we find it very important to be a leader in cleaning up historical money-laundering regimes. However, Gibraltar is so closely associated with us that, unless it is evidence of that, it is very hard for us to make that national and international claim.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, this has been a very interesting brief debate. I will not follow the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, into speculating about Delaware because I am acutely conscious that the new President of the United States represented Delaware in the US Senate for 36 years. However, I appreciate what my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe and indeed the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, said: I think that the people of Gibraltar merit sympathy and understanding.

Before I turn to the specific amendments tabled, it might be beneficial in the light of a number of the questions and comments to set out some of the intentions behind the introduction of the Gibraltar authorisation regime. As the right reverend Prelate said, the financial services industry plays an important role in Gibraltar’s economy, and Gibraltar-based firms have made extensive use of the existing market access arrangements between the UK and Gibraltar. It is true, as has been pointed out in this debate, that currently firms based in Gibraltar service a large retail consumer base in the United Kingdom, particularly in the insurance sector, where, as has been said, more than 20% of motor policies in the UK are written by Gibraltar-based insurers. The reasons for the concentration of motor insurance in Gibraltar are complex and obviously of a commercial nature, but it is natural that growth in a sector can lead to an agglomeration effect. Business attracts business, and that attracts people and talent.

I note the remarks that have been made in the debate on a range of companies. However, I remind noble Lords that the Bill is limited to financial services firms only. It will establish a new legal and institutional framework that provides for mutual market access and aligned standards in financial services between both jurisdictions. The United Kingdom and Gibraltar have a historic and unique relationship in financial services, and the UK has not had the same level of market access arrangements with any other jurisdiction. This regime will enable Gibraltar-based firms operating in the UK to continue to do so provided they meet certain standards. That way, the regime respects Gibraltar’s regulatory autonomy while ensuring high standards of supervision and consumer protection for UK customers.

On the amendments themselves, Amendment 46 would require any Gibraltar-based person carrying on authorised financial services activity in the UK to provide an annual statement to the Treasury of the profits it has made from those activities, and for the Treasury to report on this. This proposal cannot be supported by the Government because it does not reflect Gibraltar’s autonomy. As an overseas territory, Gibraltar is fiscally autonomous, and it has the right to set its own policy to support its economy within international standards and to determine its own tax rates. The scope of the GAR is focused on ensuring continued market access for Gibraltarian firms to the UK market based on the alignment of relevant law and practice. The GAR does not extend to taxation.

As my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe said, Gibraltar is already committed to meeting international standards on illicit finance, tax transparency and anti-money laundering, including those set by the OECD and the Financial Action Task Force. Gibraltar shares confidential information on company beneficial ownership and tax information with UK law enforcement bodies in real time and has agreed to introduce publicly accessible registers of company beneficial ownership. The Government were satisfied that the Gibraltar authorisation regime is rigorous and includes the right safeguards to ensure consistent standards of law and supervisory practice. I therefore ask that the amendment is withdrawn.

Amendment 47, in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Tunnicliffe and Lord Eatwell, would require the Treasury to report on the regime, the current position regarding financial services market access enjoyed by the Crown dependencies and the case for extending the regime to the Crown dependencies. I suggest to noble Lords that the first part of this amendment would replicate provisions that already exist in the Bill. Clause 22(3) of the Bill, which inserts a new Section 32A into the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000, already imposes a duty on HM Treasury to lay a report to Parliament on the operation of the regime. This report will be presented to both Houses within two years of the regime coming into force, and every two years from then on. It will specifically include an assessment of whether the alignment condition between the UK and Gibraltar is satisfied before market access is granted for an approved activity.

Noble Lords have alluded to the frequency of reporting. It has been chosen considering a range of relevant factors, including the length of time required to undertake a meaningful assessment. In this context, the amendment would simply duplicate this requirement within 12 months of the Bill receiving Royal Assent, potentially demanding a statement before this is appropriate and before any assessment has been completed.

Turning to the second point raised in this amendment, it is important to note—and the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, acknowledged this—that no other overseas territory or Crown dependency has the same market access arrangements with the UK as Gibraltar has today. The Gibraltar authorisation regime has been designed to deliver the Government’s commitment to Gibraltar in 2018 to maintain long-term market access for financial services between our jurisdictions, based on shared high standards of regulation and modern arrangements for information-sharing, transparency and co-operation. This commitment and the framework reflect the unique historic position of Gibraltar and the UK, specifically the passporting arrangements that were in place when we were both members of the EU single market, as has been said.

In our judgment, it would not be appropriate to extend the operation of the regime to other jurisdictions that do not have the same starting point of close alignment between our rules and supervisory practice. The Treasury remains committed to working with the Crown dependencies, and there are existing tools, including equivalence, that enable different degrees of access to the UK market and are more appropriate for the circumstances of the Crown dependencies. Having considered those points, I therefore ask noble Lords not to press this amendment.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

I have not received a request from anyone wishing to speak after the Minister, so I call the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans.

Business of the House

Lord True Excerpts

Wednesday 4th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I know what the noble Baroness is doing. We referred to the debate we had on the Cooper-Letwin Bill earlier this year, in which she gave an undertaking—now broken—that they would not take control of the business of this House and we would proceed as we always have by agreement between the usual channels. Not only has she done that today but she has added to it, bringing forward a guillotine procedure. That is an absolute outrage.

[Lord True (Con)]

Having also been involved at the time, I know that this certainly is the breaking of an undertaking. Many of us agreed to facilitate the passage of Cooper-Boles on the basis that this would not happen again in your Lordships’ House. There will be a lot of debating and a fundamental amendment will come forward from the Cross Benches about the very principle of the guillotine, which we can discuss. However, as I take it, the purpose of a Committee discussion—which perhaps could be confined to a short part of this—is that the person who is proposing unprecedented action in this House, the Leader of the Opposition, should be required to answer for that in the same way a Minister of the Crown is required to answer to the House. I put this to my noble friend as just one example, and I will have others later: did he hear the noble Baroness say that every Bill from the Commons should be dealt with? Does that mean immediately? How are we going to find out these things unless my noble friend’s Motion is passed and we have a proper Committee discussion and interrogation?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My noble friend makes a really important point. We need to remember that we are dealing with private Members’ legislation because the procedures in the other place have been subverted and its Standing Orders undermined. The proposition here is that private business, which may or may not come to this House, should be dealt with using a guillotine procedure. These are revolutionary changes being proposed by the noble Baroness. As my noble friend says, she really ought to account to this place, if we are in Committee, for many of the issues which will arise.

I return to my point about the other place sending us vast quantities of legislation that has not been properly scrutinised and the establishment of a precedent that we can have a guillotine procedure in this House, which will be used by Governments of all parties. There were no guillotines, other than in exceptional circumstances and subject to exceptional rules, until Tony Blair became Prime Minister in 1997, and now everything in the other place is guillotined and not properly considered. All of us in this House know in our heart of hearts how damaging that has been to the good conduct of government and the provision of legislation.

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[Lord Newby]

It was a word that the noble Lord happily appropriated. However, how does he describe the unprecedented Prorogation, the sole purpose of which is to curtail debate? How does he describe a senior Cabinet Minister going on the television, as happened at the weekend, and saying that the Government would decide, after the event, whether to follow a piece of legislation duly passed by Parliament? I think that that is an abomination and that what we are proposing is eminently reasonable.

If we pass this Motion, your Lordships’ House will have some 14 hours to discuss the Bill. That is over four times the amount of time being given to it in the Commons. It would give seven hours for the principle of the Bill to be debated. Is that unreasonable? Clearly not. By our normal standards, we are undoubtedly talking about a tight timetable, but in the circumstances it is an eminently reasonable timetable.

Of course, it has been suggested that this is the beginning of a slippery slope, but it is not unusual for your Lordships’ House to take an entire Bill through all its stages in one sitting day. That is the norm for Northern Ireland legislation. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, helpfully points out, that is normally done by agreement between the parties. This Bill is undoubtedly urgent and, in the absence of agreement between the parties and as a self-regulating House, it is for your Lordships to decide whether the proposals before the House today are proportionate and necessary in their own right. I hope that we never find ourselves in such a position in the future, but the only future that we should have in our minds today is the future prosperity, security and influence of our country, and in order to protect those we need this Bill and we need this Motion.

[Lord True]

I rise to second and support the proposition put by my noble friend. The coercion, or the instinct to coerce, could never have been put with more charm, eloquence and mildness than it has just been put by the noble Lord, Lord Newby. He made everything sound so reasonable, so normal and so in line with what we always do—that nothing we have here has never happened before. But when I went to the Table Office and saw that Motion in black and white, the like of which has never been tabled in this House in its history—by a Government, still less an Opposition—I must confess that, to appropriate a phrase, it was a dagger in my heart. It was the same thing that the Lord Hart of Chilton, who we all esteemed—

[Lord Patten of Barnes (Con)]

I am jolly concerned about my noble friend’s heart. I wonder what his cardiologist would have said when he learned about the longest Prorogation since the 1930s, at a time when this Parliament is engaged in extraordinarily important discussions about the national interest? Is that not a rather larger dagger—a rather larger guillotine—than anything we are talking about today?

[Lord True]

I very strongly disagree with my noble friend, and I will discuss my heart when he discusses his soul on this matter. The question of Prorogation is not before us now. I will stick to the central point, which is the guillotine. Perhaps I should not have used the phrase used by the noble Lord, Lord Butler, about the dagger—but it was his phrase and that of Lord Hart of Chilton before that.

Setting that phrase aside, I suggest that very few noble Lords who were involved in the pre-cooking of this plot—because it is a plot—who were not shocked when they saw that Motion. Someone said that I should be ashamed of myself for putting the case that this House should never, never accept a guillotine.

I remember that, when I first came into the House, by chance the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, had a very memorable debate on the implications of coalitions. It was around the time that all this stuff was going on—the threat from David Cameron and what was said by the former Lord Chancellor. Her question was whether the House has to acquiesce—or acquiesce immediately—if a coalition brings something forward. Does it have the authority of the Salisbury doctrine? When the noble Baroness replies, it would be interesting to know whether she thinks that everything that comes from the Commons has the authority of the Salisbury doctrine.

In this case, we do not even have a formal coalition but an ad-hoc group of folk who have come together in the other place, cobbled together some sort of Bill, plan to send it up here and have got their minions here to put down something that will change the whole character of how your Lordships’ House does business. I will give way to the noble Lord.

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

Does the noble Lord agree that the question of the primacy of the House of Commons is nothing to do with the Salisbury doctrine; it is to do with the fact that it is elected and we are not?

[Lord True]

The Salisbury doctrine is very important for relations between the two Houses. It allows this House freedom to challenge and dissent on things that are not covered by the doctrine. If it is a manifesto measure or something that has been put before the people, this House must certainly defer, sometimes quickly.

Who put this proposition that we are told is coming up the Corridor to the people? Who actually published it? It was written by Sir Oliver Letwin and a few clever lawyers—perhaps some of them in this place—and put forward. What is the authority by which those people claim that this House should not only defer but defer to a guillotine to force it through? We will shortly come on to the amendment—

[Baroness Hayman (CB)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. Is the authority not from the majority in the House of Commons last night?

[Lord True]

My Lords, if that argument had been put before this great House for 700 years—with the House told that every time a vote in the other place produced a majority it must be silent—this House would not have endured. This House has a right and a duty to respond. I believe that we should consider the matter of the guillotine separately. On this I agree with the noble Baroness opposite that the sensible thing is for an accommodation to be reached between the opposition party and the governing party, which must involve a lot of things, including acquiescing to this general election, about which we do not know whether they are keen. It is clear that the House of Commons is not functioning. In those circumstances, of course there would be no need for her guillotine and no need for our response—but that is certainly above my pay grade. That accommodation having not yet been reached is no excuse for her to come and present to the House something so exceptional, so draconian and so unprecedented, and then to complain when that gets an exceptional, unprecedented and possibly draconian response. If there is no guillotine Motion, I will shut up. But as long as this House is prevented—

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

I thank the noble Lord. One way, of course, would be if Prorogation were delayed so that this House had plenty of time to discuss it. Will the noble Lord undertake to lobby the Prime Minister on that?

[Lord True]

No, I will not. I will not be sidetracked—

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord True]

I do not want to get into the issue of Prorogation, simply because of the time. But I spoke about Prorogation the last time we discussed these things. We all know that Prorogation is perfectly normal. There is always a Queen’s Speech. There has been one every year and the next Government will introduce a Queen’s Speech after the general election. In response to the noble Baroness, I will make the point that, if there were an election and a new Session, there would be more time to have such a Bill after that than there is in the next two days. There would be several days in which we could discuss it, not two days. It is not necessary to do it now. Indeed, after an election, if the party opposite won, we would not need a Bill because it would ask for an extension anyway—and if our side won, the Bill would not go forward. So the whole thing is entirely unnecessary, and this House is being asked to sign away hundreds of years of tradition on a pretext.

I support my noble friend. There are questions that the noble Baroness should answer. What does the Salisbury doctrine apply to? In her doctrine, we must defer to the Commons. Does self-regulation always mean a Motion from the Leader of the Opposition? Her guillotine says that if it passes, no one else may put any proposition to the House in the time that we are discussing this Bill, except the Leader of the Opposition. There are questions that need to be answered. I strongly support the view of my noble friend that we should take the Committee opportunity to get some answers from the Leader of the Opposition.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

Will my noble friend include on the list of questions that he is putting to the Leader of the Opposition that of whether this Motion would be necessary if we did not have Prorogation?

[Lord True]

The Motion is not at all necessary, irrespective of Prorogation. I just made that point. There will be more time in a new Parliament to deal with this Bill than in these two days.

Motion

Moved by

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Amendment to the Motion (2)

[Lord True]

Moved by

Leave out from first “Commons” to the end and insert “that this House believes that any Bill that has been allowed only one day’s consideration in the House of Commons, should receive full and unfettered consideration in the House of Lords and in the interests of orderly Parliamentary scrutiny deplores any attempt to curtail consideration in both Houses.”

[Lord True]

My Lords, we have just seen 288 Members of your Lordships’ House vote to close discussion on one of the most fundamental principles to come before this House procedurally: whether we should have a guillotine in this House. Two hundred and eighty-eight Members voted not even to discuss the matter after the most impressive speech by the noble Baroness, Lady Deech. Whatever our opinions on any question, is this the way that this House wishes to proceed?

[A noble Lord]

Yes.

[Lord True]

“Yes”, we hear from the putative Government of the future; this is what they will give us.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Does my noble friend not think that for the Liberal Chief Whip to call a closure after only one speech had been made is one of the most disgraceful acts we have seen in this House?

[Lord True]

My Lords, I was coming to the Liberal Democrat Chief Whip. As the Liberal Democrats know, I am one of their greatest fans in the world, but my noble friend has of course made the point: the Liberal Democrat—democrat—Chief Whip, from a sedentary position, without even the courtesy to stand up to address the House—

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

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[Lord True]

Our proceedings are filmed. He moved the closure on a fundamental question of procedure in this House without any opportunity for anybody to respond when it was clear that other noble Lords, including one noble Lord with extensive experience of presiding over the House of Commons, wished to contribute. I will not talk about repentance, because I saw four or five right reverend Prelates move in to support the principle of a guillotine—they clearly do not like dissent in their pews; they are not quite in the Anglican tradition—but I believe we might see some repentance from the Liberal Democrat Chief Whip and that he will not on this amendment, which allows the House—

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My noble friend referred to the Lords Spiritual. That is quite interesting, because I noted this morning that the learned judge in Scotland in dismissing the case said that this question was not one for the judiciary, but a matter of high politics. I am a little surprised that the Lords Spiritual want to engage so actively in high politics.

[Lord True]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his intervention. However, returning to the fundamental point, are we really going to allow the acceptance of the principle of a guillotine to go forward without any dissenting voice being allowed? What the Liberal Democrat—democrat—Chief Whip offered the House was a guillotine of a guillotine. We started off today with the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, saying that there will be no developments, no further guillotines and that nothing will happen. We have moved from the presentation of the most draconian guillotine Motion ever seen in this House to a Cross-Bencher who wished to put some points about the principle of the matter being closed down from a sedentary position by the Liberal Democrat Chief Whip—a guillotine of a guillotine. In the long proceedings I anticipate on this there may well be many occasions when it might be apt to intervene. I do not like to see the closure used, but it might be understandable. For my part as a parliamentarian—

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord has been speaking for four minutes and 39 seconds and is yet to address in any aspect the substance of the amendment he is moving. Is that not surely an abuse of the processes of this House?

[Lord True]

My Lords, what is an abuse of the processes of the House is for the noble Lord to come here and fail to read the amendment before the House. If he reads it, he will see that it is exactly to the point of the propriety of the guillotine and every point I have made has been germane. Perhaps he was asleep.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

I appreciate that the noble Lord is hankering after the halcyon days he had in local government, but he is simply abusing the Liberal Democrats. I am very happy to abuse them on appropriate occasions, but we might try to carry out a debate focusing on the direct issues rather than streams of verbiage that do not get to the point.

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[Lord True]

I repeat: perhaps the noble Lord would like to read the amendment before he keeps standing up and saying that what I have said is not germane. I might also say that, much as I have been tempted, I said in my speech that I am not attacking the Liberal Democrats. I am attacking the Liberal Democrat Chief Whip, one of the leading figures in this House, who behaved with such discourtesy to a senior Cross-Bench Peer and to other Peers who wished to speak. If the noble Lord, Lord Harris, wants to make general attacks on Liberal Democrats, there will be other times for that and I might well join in.

Perhaps those on the other side do not share the view that this House, after the disaster of 1911, became a great revising Chamber and a great debating Chamber because of its freedoms—freedoms that went with and must always go with responsibility. But if we are to become a House where, when some people do not want to hear the opinions of other people they shout, “Closure, we’ll hear no more”, what kind of House will we become? It would be a great and sad occasion, obviously, but it would be a farce to call that anything like a free Parliament. This is the kind of thing that happens in some Parliaments that none of us would ever wish to belong to in countries that some of us would never wish to live in: when somebody comes to stand up and make a point on a debate of fundamental importance, someone shouts that they cannot be heard. This is not the way we should go in this Parliament.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Why does my noble friend think that, when a closure is moved, our procedures require the Chair to remind people that this should be an exceptional procedure and invite the person concerned to revise their view? Why does he think that procedure is there, and what does he think about what has happened so far today?

[Lord True]

I do not want to be disobliging to my noble friend, whom I admire very much, but I say again what I said to the noble Lord opposite. I have been trying to make that point, and I am grateful to him for reinforcing it. It is the fundamental issue which I believe noble Lords should be allowed to wrestle with. Do we want to be the sort of House that we have just been, where we have voted by that large number—288 Peers—to close down, at the behest of a Peer, without any debate? I would like to have heard other Members from the Cross Benches responding to and commenting, from the viewpoint of their experience, on the noble Baroness’s speech. As I said at the start, I would like to have heard my noble friends Lord Naseby and Lord Cormack, who wished to speak.

I have tried to explain to the noble Lord opposite that my amendment addresses the same issue. Sometimes in life you get a second chance. This amendment offers the House a second chance to address and hear a little about why this great principle of freedom of debate should be cast aside, but on a more limited scale. I do not ask, as the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, did in her powerful speech, that the House should reject the principle of a guillotine. I put before your Lordships a proposition relating to any Bill that has been allowed only one day’s consideration in the House of Commons —we have not got this Bill yet, so it may be this Bill, but it could be any Bill—and we are discussing the principle here. This is an issue of principle about the guillotine. Surely any Bill that has been allowed only one day’s consideration in the House of Commons should receive full and unfettered consideration in your Lordship’s House.

I come back to the central point: what is this Chamber for if not to revise, consider, scrutinise and debate? I submit that there should not be curtailment of consideration on a Bill which is not an emergency Bill. There should not be a guillotine imposed in both Houses on legislation of this sort.

[Baroness Browning (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for giving way. When I was shadow Leader in another place during the William Hague administration, the Blair Government introduced guillotining at all stages for Bills going through the House of Commons, something that the Conservative Party robustly opposed at the time. Unfortunately, the Blair Government had their way, and that is what happens now. Having come to your Lordships’ House from another place nine years ago, I am only too familiar with the fact that, at all stages of a Bill coming from another place, the guillotine will fall and at all stages large sections of those Bills never get debated. It is incumbent upon this House to look line by line at everything that has not had the benefit of Members of the House of Commons looking at it. If we give up that duty—and it is a duty—through this measure being introduced to the House today, then I say to my noble friend that what he is proposing is very serious in its consequences for any Bill. We might all be worried about what is coming in the next couple of days, whether you support it or not, but as he rightly says, this is a principle, and we shall rue this as far as the future of this House and its role is concerned.

[Lord True]

I am very grateful to my noble friend, particularly with her great experience in the other place. I never had the privilege of serving there, but I remember that in 1975, when I was a young researcher, the late, great Michael Foot—a remarkable parliamentarian, though not necessarily always the greatest Minister—introduced five guillotine Motions on the Floor of the House of Commons in one day. That was considered such a sensational and shocking thing to do that it was on the front pages of the newspapers, and people cried “Liberty”. And here we are, in my lifetime, as my noble friend just pointed out, we now see the House of Commons treated as the lapdog when it comes to whoever is in control, whether it is the Government—

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, I have listened with great intent and attention to the passion of the noble Lord’s principles regarding curtailment of discussion. Is he intending to say a word about the fundamental and ultimate guillotine, which is the closure of Parliament through proroguing, which is the very reason that we have been forced into our current circumstances?

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[Lord True]

The noble Lord has been a member of many Governments, and year after year has attended ceremonies of Prorogation with the sovereign there. He knows full well that it is a perfectly normal part of the parliamentary year. What is abnormal is that we have had years without a Prorogation and without a Queen’s Speech. The noble Lord knows this far too well to try and pull that one.

Let me return to the point. The Liberal Democrat Chief Whip is not in his place, so I need not repeat what I have said about him, but since he is not here, I say to noble Lords who have the power over this House—the power of the closure Motion, the power to silence an individual Member in this House at will, without even standing up—please may we be allowed to hear from other noble Lords on the question of the propriety of a guillotine in this House, in general terms? Will they graciously vouchsafe, from their lofty places, permission for another Peer to address the points that I have made, and which the noble Baroness made on the previous amendment?

[Lord Framlingham (Con)]

Can I suggest to my noble friend that part of the reason for what is happening is that all the Liberal Democrats, and a large number of the Labour Party, simply do not want to leave Europe at all, and that all this is just shenanigans and make-believe? They are not interested in debate. Why should they be remotely interested in any debate about how we leave or what is going on? They simply do not want to leave. I am not referring to anybody here personally, but this will prove to be the biggest political lie in history. Everybody is talking about how we leave, and what they should really be saying is that they do not want to leave at all.

[Lord True]

My Lords, my noble friend may be right, but I do not wish to follow on that point, because I believe that the principle applies to all legislation. In brief response, I pointed out in my earlier speech that it would be perfectly possible to pass in late October the Bill that we are allegedly getting; in fact, there would be more days, so in a sense an entirely false prospectus is being presented to us.

My fundamental point is a question of power. Is not Parliament really about discussing, shackling, scrutinising and considering power? The question of power is this: today, now, as has just been demonstrated on the previous amendment, they—the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrats—have the power to shut your Lordships up. They have the power to say, “We don’t want to hear from anybody in this House who doesn’t think that a guillotine is a good idea. We’re having this guillotine. Shut up”. That in demotic language is what the closure Motion means. Those who have power, as they do today, should exercise it with wisdom and restraint.

When I conclude my remarks, I hope that even on the more limited proposition that I put before the House that a guillotine should not be applied to legislation in both Houses, at least one Peer may be allowed to say something. When I look around this House, I see noble Lords who sat in Cabinets, great judges, the right reverend Prelates, people of immense experience, former heads of the Cabinet and the Civil Service. “Shut up. We do not want to hear from you. The Liberal Democrat Chief Whip does not want to hear from you. The Labour Party does not want to hear from you. We have our guillotine”.

[A noble Lord]

That is not true.

[Lord True]

Then do not impose the guillotine; do not use the closure Motion on this issue. I shall give way to a representative of a party that opposes power.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb]

Oh, not at all. I am so sorry; you are completely wrong on that. I thank the noble Lord for sitting down; I wish it were for longer. As I have said previously here, I voted leave; I did not vote for no deal. What I am trying to do here today is stop no deal. The person who had the power is the Prime Minister, who decided to prorogue Parliament, to close it down and to shut it up. It is not this side of the Chamber that is stopping debate; it is that side, and you have to take responsibility for that.

[Lord True]

That of course is entirely false, my Lords. The Prime Minister of Great Britain, whoever it is, has no power to enter this Chamber. He may come and stand at the Bar of this House and listen to its proceedings or sit on the steps of the Throne, but he has no power here. It is in your Lordships’ gift to decide whether to submit to the principle of the guillotine, and the guillotine of the guillotine, which has been put forward by the Liberal Democrat Chief Whip. “Shut up”. Is that what we are going to accept in future in this Chamber? I beg to move.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

My Lords, I should inform the House that if the amendment is agreed to, I cannot call any other amendments by reason of pre-emption.

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[Lord Goldsmith]

I have made it very clear that this is way above my pay grade, but I understand that what has been said is not that we are against a general election but that we are against a general election before the Bill has passed and we have clarified the position in relation to the possibility of crashing out without a deal. I am not going to say anything more, because some of this may be taken as an official statement from the Labour Party, which it is certainly not.

[Lord True]

I will not ask the noble and learned Lord to go further, but the fundamental point is that we cannot do the whole thing in this House. I endorse fully what has been said by others. We should have an arrangement and understanding between the three parties. It has also to involve the Front Benches in the other Chamber. If that can be achieved, that would be a good way to proceed.

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[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

Second Reading of the Bill has passed.

[Lord True]

It might help the House if I responded for 30 seconds to the amendment to withdraw the amendment, because I think that the spirit of the House is right on this. I shall not press the amendment because I do not want this great House to record a second vote in favour of a guillotine. That would be very sad, particularly against my Motion, which asked for the guillotine not to be applied in a case where a Bill has been guillotined in the other House.

In the heat of these debates—I acknowledge that I perhaps believe a bit too much in the sense of liberty of this House—it would be a great pity if we put on the record of the House that we had rejected Motions that I proposed and, by implication, supported guillotining a Measure in both Houses. I therefore intend to ask the leave of the House to withdraw the amendment, but I hope that there might be a little pause, as some have asked, and some consideration, because the reality is that there has to be a total deal, it involves the other place, the leader of the Opposition and the Prime Minister, and we cannot deliver that in this Chamber. In some way or another, because someone has to give something up—in a good deal, people on both sides give something up—this side of the House has to keep an insurance policy against the imposition of the guillotine if there is no deal.

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[Lord Newby]

In an attempt to simplify matters, I support the idea of a simple, straightforward, short break, not to insert any other business, because that would be confusing, but to accept that any agreement reached among the usual channels in your Lordships’ House at 7 o’clock might be conditional on various things happening in the Commons in the next few hours. In that way, we would know what to do in various circumstances. I am loath to see a long pause, because if for some reason the good will, which I am pleased to see breaking out, did not lead to an agreement, we would be back to where we were, and the sooner we got back to where we were, the better.

As it is now 18.48, I should have thought that if we had half or three quarters of an hour, that should be perfectly long enough to—

[Lord True]

I am attempting to withdraw my amendment. I agree with what the noble Lord is saying, but if we have to come back, of course we will go through all the amendments. However, let us hope that the spirit of amity continues. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Lord True’s amendment to the Motion (2) withdrawn.

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Moved by

[Lord Marlesford]

After first “Commons” to insert “, and in recognition of the fact that the vote of 17.4 million people in the 2016 referendum to leave the European Union is no longer relevant and may be ignored or further deferred”.

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord True asked me to speak to this amendment; it is an interesting amendment to speak to. The amendment relates particularly to the 17.4 million people who voted for Brexit and the effect of this guillotine on them. I point out that fact because, in the past, noble Lords have not always read the amendment. As the amendment says, it comes,

“in recognition of the fact that the vote of 17.4 million people in the 2016 referendum to leave the European Union is no longer relevant and may be ignored or further deferred”.

That is a very depressing situation for those people. They are not following the intricacies of what is happening in your Lordships’ House today. They will be as mystified as some of us are. None the less, all I can say is that a dangerous impression is being given by today’s proceedings and, to some extent, by yesterday’s proceedings in another place: that the view of the people is being ignored through Parliament’s hijacking of what they said. I suggest that that will have an interesting ripple effect if and when an election takes place, not least because the terms of an election have changed—in recent hours, almost.

Not long ago, the movement was for a fresh referendum. At that stage, the discussion was all about what the question in the referendum should be. In fact, the Brexit side worried considerably about whether the question would divide the Brexit vote. This morning, of course, Sir Keir Starmer, on behalf of the Labour Party, gave a clear, unequivocal and, I hope, binding view that, in a general election, the Labour Party would campaign to remain. By doing so, he has succeeded in dividing the remain vote because, in that situation, the remain vote will be divided between the Liberal Democrats, who have always believed in remain, and the Labour Party, which has not always believed in remain. In fact, it has been very difficult to know what it does believe in. Perhaps we ought to look at the backdrop to all this. Why on earth are we in this position at all? I had better declare my own position very clearly, in case it is of interest to anyone: in the referendum I voted, marginally, to leave. If there were to be another vote or referendum, I would vote enthusiastically to leave because of what I believe has been happening in Europe. I would like to remind noble Lords of the backdrop to all our discussions.

In my view, the EU project is proving a tragic example of weakness through strength. The original purpose of bringing peace to a war-torn Europe in the treaty of Rome 1957 was achieved long ago. The successor objective of bringing together for free trade and economic collaboration an enthusiastic group of like-minded democratic European countries to enhance their mutual stability and prosperity was a success for many years. As President de Gaulle famously described it in 1962, the year in which the common agricultural policy was launched, it was meant to be a group of nation states retaining their cultures and their legal, political and national identities and traditions: a “Europe des patries” or “Europe des nations”—I think he used both phrases.

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[Lord Marlesford]

I am afraid I do not agree at all. If the noble and learned Lord is proposing to move the closure of my speech, let him go ahead and do so. I wish to make my own speech, and I do not wish to be told by him what or what not to say. Is that clear? I thank him very much.

At any rate, it was not until Maastricht that we attempted to have in Europe a policy similar to the rights of states; it was spelled out in many pages of Brussels jargon that the EU should not assume powers better exercised at national level. By then it was too late, but since then the Eurocrats have had many happy hours finding exceptions to limit the impact of subsidiarity. The introduction of a single currency without central economic government was always a challenge. The European Central Bank, established in June 1998, has done a fine job, with distinguished and successful presidents who have resisted the pressure to accommodate political priorities of individual euro states. The introduction of European monetary union, with fixed exchange rates in January 1999, paved the way for a smooth final arrival, three years later, of a single currency—the euro—for 300 million people. Since then, the ECB has successfully coped with the difficulties.

The problem of the EU—the problem that has caused all this to happen, from 2016 up to and including today—is that the EU Commission, based in Brussels, has one nationally appointed Commissioner for every country, and every Commissioner is expected to subordinate their national interest to the collective good. The Commission has the sole right to propose new European legislation. It has sought to aggregate to itself more and more power. In theory, the Commission is answerable to the European Council of Ministers representing the national Governments at the head or departmental level. In practice, everything is sorted out behind the scenes by Commission officials in consultation. Many states have been unhappy for a very long time at the way in which the Commission has been behaving. I believe that is the main reason why there has been such an enfeebling of the European Union.

[Lord True]

I declare an interest as a part-time resident of Italy, as my noble friend knows and the House will know. Does he agree that the points he is making are exemplified by what we have seen lately in Italy, where unelected Commissioners descend and lecture elected Governments about what budget they might be allowed to present? Even more recently, an effective parliamentary coup—something we may get used to this country shortly—has taken place to install an unelected Government.

[Lord Marlesford]

Yes, indeed. Of course, all that is what caused David Cameron to call a referendum in the first place. One must realise that when we voted to leave the EU, the Commission was outraged. It was also fearful. Once one country had taken such a step, others might follow and the whole edifice could come crashing down. Methodically and skilfully, it set about making the UK’s departure either impossible or too difficult and expensive to pursue. In this it had the collaboration of senior British civil servants, who had been equally shocked by the referendum result. The Commission has repeatedly made it clear that there are no circumstances in which the withdrawal agreement offered to Mrs May in November 2018 and subsequently, as we all know, rejected three times by the House of Commons—by the British Parliament—will be reopened for further negotiation.

The main sticking point has been the land border between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic. The EU Commission has insisted on a so-called backstop clause in the withdrawal agreement, which—this has been said and cannot be said too often—could mean that the UK would have to remain indefinitely in the EU customs union to avoid a hard border. Absurdly, it is felt by both sides that a hard border of any sort could cause the fighting between the two sides to start again. I simply do not believe that is true. The traumatic effect of the fighting was far too great. The Good Friday agreement, which took place with the help of the Americans, is much safer than people think.

The obvious example is an invisible sea border. It is interesting that only today—this is all happening now and is relevant to the legislation—it is suggested that it might be possible to have one island for the purpose of agricultural trade. If we were to have one island for agricultural trade, in my view, and presumably in the view of those who put forward this idea, this does not break the concept or idea of having a Northern Ireland which is part of the UK. I therefore hope very much that this could be extended to all sides. That would be very much better.

Mrs May, who was respected for her fortitude but not admired for her lack of flexibility in negotiating, has landed us in a state where we have to discuss this emergency legislation today. The Conservatives suffered a crushing defeat in the May elections for the European Parliament—the Labour Party even more so. That is why we have had a change of Prime Minister. The Labour Party is in even greater difficulties, largely because its leader, Mr Corbyn—this is totally relevant to the legislation that the House of Commons is in the process of passing—has been unable to make it clear whether he believes in staying or leaving.

I happen to know why that is the case. I read the Morning Star rather regularly. On 18 January this year, an article headed “Communists slam plots to halt Brexit” quoted the Communist Party’s political committee. The general secretary of the Communist Party, Mr Robert Griffiths—in case noble Lords did not know his name—said,

“We may well see Article 50 extended, allowing extra time either to renovate Prime Minister May’s ‘bogus Brexit’ deal or to hold a second referendum in the hope that almost three years of hysterical anti-Brexit scaremongering will reverse the results of the first … In any event, the aim will be the same: to maintain Britain’s subjection to pro-big business EU rules that would obstruct the policies of a future left-led Labour Government”.


Below, there is a lovely advertisement, “Corbyn and the Star”, offering a T-shirt which bears,

“the two great left symbols of our era—Jeremy Corbyn and the Morning Star”.

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[Lord Goldsmith]

My Lords, the issue before the House is whether or not to agree the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford. I suggest first that the noble Lord withdraws it, but I suspect that that is not going to happen, and, secondly, that the House does not accept the amendment. The reasons are those that have been given already. It does not add to the point about the programme Motion, which says that the Bill, if it reaches us, should be dealt with in accordance with a procedure which would give two clear days for it to be dealt with. I respectfully suggest, as was the point of my intervention on the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, that it is not helped by adding this statement, whether ironic or political. The real question ultimately is whether or not the programme Motion should be agreed. On that basis, I invite the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment. If not, we will oppose it.

[Lord True]

Does the noble and learned Lord not think that the public are entitled to understand what the motivation is? Is he unhappy about the lending of the girdle of honesty by this amendment to the motivation for the Motion before us?

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[Lord Dobbs]

Yes, of course, but I am sure that my noble friend—he is a dear friend—is not suggesting that the promise that was given to those 17.4 million people, indeed to the entire country, has actually been fulfilled. We know what the object of so much of this is: it is not actually to decide which way we are going to get out of the EU. Out there and in this Chamber, there are people who are not worried about no deal; they want no exit. That is absolutely clear.

[Lord True]

Does my noble friend agree that, ironically, they are the no-dealers because they want everything to stay the same? They do not even want an adjustment of a withdrawal agreement or anything of that sort. They want no deal. They want us to stay in the Community.

[Lord Dobbs]

I entirely agree with my noble friend. It is one of those ironies that the Lib Deems started this with those leaflets with Mr Clegg’s face on promising a real choice, a real referendum. Mr Clegg and the late leader of the Liberal Democrats at the time said that it was an instruction from the people, not a bit of advice, perhaps something that we would think about, but an instruction from the people. It is one of the great ironies of this fiasco that we are going through right now that the Lib Dems have now come full circle. Having promised us that there would be a referendum and having campaigned for that, now their leader says that even if there were a second referendum to endorse the first—and, of course, a second referendum would endorse the result of the first referendum—they would not even then in those circumstances put forward Brexit and pursue that policy. They wear a coat of many colours, but it has got a little ragged at the hem and they are in real danger of falling flat on their faces.

We talk about the role of this House and of the House of Commons and the Queen, but there are four pillars of government in this country: the Queen, the House of Commons, the House of Lords and the people. We talk about parliamentary sovereignty, but in my book it is the people who are sovereign when they have been given such an explicit promise as they were given three years ago and they have consistently said that they want that promise honoured. That is why this amendment is one of the most honest amendments on the very long list this evening.

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[Lord True]

What the noble Baroness has said is important, but unfortunately there is something in it which I cannot accept—the idea that there is something normal about the procedure. I must ask the noble Baroness to accept at least this: it is not normal to slap down a massive guillotine Motion without notice; it is not normal to expect this House to deal forthwith with whatever legislation comes from the House of Commons, and it is not normal to apply those principles to any Bill that is not covered by the Salisbury doctrine. I cannot accept those contentions, but that does not mean that I resile from my position when I withdrew my amendment. The noble Baroness should be under no illusion that, if the Front Benches are not able to come to an arrangement, those of us who find a guillotine utterly repugnant will not feel free to continue. I hope that I do not have to be in that position personally—I cannot speak for others—but I cannot accept that this procedure is normal.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I thank the noble Lord for those comments. There is very little that is normal at the moment. I do not want to put a guillotine Motion before this House; I was trying to help the House. It is not normal to have so many amendments; it is not normal to have such a Prorogation. We are trying to make the best of a difficult situation and see our way through it.

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[Lord Warner (CB)]

I say respectfully to the noble Baroness that the speech she has made is one that should be made on the Bill itself when it comes here. We can all have a good go at what people’s views are on leaving the EU, but today we are supposed to be debating a process Motion about how we deal with that piece of legislation, not its merits, demerits and history. I would be grateful if the noble Baroness would bring her conclusions to a rapid end so that we can take a decision on it.

[Lord True]

If I could help my noble friend against a most absurd attack, if I may say so, we have just had a great disquisition from the Front Bench opposite—from the Leader of the Opposition, no less. The whole thing we have been trying to say is that it is about procedure in this House—I have, anyway—but she has said it is all about Brexit, all about the people on this side wanting to stop Brexit, et cetera. It is perfectly reasonable for my noble friend to follow the course charted by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon.

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[Baroness Noakes]

My Lords, I am not part of the Government; like my noble friend, I am a mere Back-Bencher. This is not a government Motion at all. Unless and until there is an agreement between the Front Benches, the existing rules will apply. The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, is trying to overrule the normal rules with her Motion, which is why we oppose it. We do not oppose the Bill; we oppose the Motion and, therefore, the way in which the procedures of our House are being subverted—not just in this instance, although we know that the motive for moving such a Motion is to achieve this particular Bill, but because it could do this House long-term harm. That is what I care about and what I know many of my colleagues care about.

[Lord True]

This is not a government-inspired matter. I am not grand enough to aspire to writing my memoirs but if I were ever to do so, history would show that the Government had very little to do with these proceedings, which result from the genuine anger on all sides of the House at the device being put forward. We hear all this stuff about how we must rush through this and that but is it not the case that this Parliament voted, and it is the law of the land, that we should leave the European Union and do so on 31 October? This has been debated ad nauseam. We are seeing a desperate attempt by a bunch of remainer ditchers to reverse not only the verdict of the people but the prior verdict of this Parliament. Is that not the real disgrace in these circumstances?

[Lord Warner]

Let me say something to the noble Lord and to some of the other noble Lords who have spoken in defence of the noble Baroness moving this Motion. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, gave the game away. He is now trying to pose as a defender of the people, as we heard from the remarks he just made. The truth of the matter is that, whether we like it or not, the House of Commons has passed a piece of legislation that its Members, as the elected Members of this Parliament, think is in the best interests of their constituents. It is our job to get on and look at that piece of legislation, rather than spending nearly a whole day discussing in a rather nitwitty way the set of processes by which we do so.

[Lord True]

Would the noble Lord like to pass me a copy of the Bill?

[Lord Warner]

It is a shame that the noble Lord has not read it.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord True]

I have. The noble Lord is a little more fly than I expected. I thought that he might not have read it but I give him credit.

[Baroness Noakes]

We must remember that we are debating how the Bill is being handled, not the fact that it has been approved by a majority in the other place. Of course, when Bills come here with a majority from the other place, we do what we normally do: receive and scrutinise them. The purpose of the Motion before us is to limit the way in which we normally receive and scrutinise Bills from the other place, so we should be careful to ensure that we are comfortable with that. In particular, the Motion in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, would introduce a guillotine Motion, which was discussed during the debate on an earlier Motion.

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Moved by

[Lord Framlingham]

After first “Commons” to insert “, and in recognition of the fact that promises made in election manifestoes in 2017 to ensure the United Kingdom’s departure from the European Union are not binding”.

[Lord Framlingham]

My Lords, I will speak to this amendment on behalf of my noble friend Lord True. It is to do with how binding or otherwise manifestos are. Before I begin, I will respond to the noble Lord who asked whether we were—or someone was—suggesting that ex-Cabinet Ministers could be trying to harm the Government’s programme. I respectfully remind your Lordships that the Member of Parliament who was the Chancellor of the Exchequer just a few weeks ago is now the principal saboteur of the Government’s programme. I think that speaks for itself.

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[Lord True]

In my judgment, my noble friend’s point is entirely correct. As he noticed, and as I have pointed out to the House before, in both Houses, in Division after Division on measure after measure to advance Brexit, the Labour Party has consistently delivered more than 200 votes in the Division Lobbies to frustrate the Brexit process. Does he not believe that the Labour Party has dishonoured its manifesto and that the British people need to know that, without the Labour Party’s obstruction, Brexit would have been delivered?

[Lord Framlingham]

I think the British people are now totally confused and utterly fed up with politicians and Parliament, and they simply want Brexit done, in the way the Prime Minister proposes. We should get on with it.

This guillotine Motion is outrageous, but it is only another blow, in a long line of such actions, to the workings and stature of the House. The opposition parties will use any device, existing or created by them, to frustrate normal government. Their treatment of the Northern Ireland Bill is a very sad case in point.

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Moved by

[Lord True]

After first “Commons” to insert “, and only once any current legal proceedings relating to prorogations in the English courts have been concluded”.

[Lord True]

My Lords, I am encouraged by every cry of “Oh no”, so please continue. In speaking to this amendment, I should explain that for convenience, to get these amendments down quickly, I agreed to have my name put to all the manuscript amendments that were tabled, which is why other colleagues, whose amendments they really are, have been speaking to them.

I agreed to raise this point. I do not wish to dwell on it because I am conscious of the sub judice rules and conventions in the House, as well as the extent to which we are able, or unable, to discuss pending cases because of the implications; if one looks at the relevant section of the Companion, one has to be extremely careful in talking about civil cases that have been committed for hearing.

We heard a lot today about so-called improper Prorogation, and so on and so forth. Improper Prorogation has been one of the main pretexts used by those who wish to import this extraordinary guillotine procedure into the House. In fact, it has been the main intervention I have had in my speeches: “What about this Prorogation?”. Well, what about it? As I understand it, the matter is being tested in the English courts. I think my noble friend Lady Noakes will talk about the situation in Scotland, where I believe there has been a resolution.

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[Lord Strathclyde]

The noble Lord is not going to move the closure; he has given up. That would be a marvellous thing, would it not? It would be interesting to know whether my noble friend envisages, under his amendment, that a vexatious litigant could indefinitely stop a Bill by raising legal issues in different courts—for instance, in the English courts and/or the Scottish courts at the same time. Would that make it impossible for any kind of legislation to ever get through? I just wondered if he has thought through the implications, or perhaps he expects the Front Bench to have an answer to that question.

[Lord True]

Here is a reversal of roles. I spent about 13 years—I hesitate to say it—drafting the odd amendment for the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde. Here is the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, suggesting there might be a flaw. I was really seeking a prop to inquire how the Opposition see all these legal actions—I believe some of them are not too far away—impacting on these proceedings and whether they think it is prudent to put the House of Lords through all this before awaiting an outcome of what is before the courts.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am uniquely disadvantaged as well, because I am not a lawyer, but I always understood that the courts did not get involved in proceedings in Parliament. That would seem to be what has happened in Scotland today: the matter before them was considered to be not judiciable.

We ought to pay tribute to Gina Miller. Had it not been for her, we would not have been forced to ensure that Parliament passed the requirement for us to leave the European Union by a huge majority.

[Lord True]

My noble friend makes that point extremely well. I think all of us on this side feel very grateful for that and I fully endorse what he has said.

[Lord Warner]

Will the noble Lord clarify this point? I recall in what he said about people who tried to use the courts to stop the progress towards Brexit that his former boss for whom he used to write speeches, somebody called John Major, seemed to be one of the people who was involved in that activity.

[Lord True]

I made my comments on Sir John Major’s action in a speech in this House a month or two ago and I do not need to repeat them. I am trying to avoid referring to these proceedings, perhaps unwisely. If the noble Lord, Lord Warner, wishes to google “Major” in my speeches, he will find my opinion of some of the actions we have seen lately.

I do not want to prolong this speech. I am just interested to know how the Opposition, which is leading and pressing on this, sees this range of legal actions fitting in to what it plans and proposes. They are purporting to run the business of our House. Have they given any consideration to what may be happening in the law courts? As I have said, that is where the power is. We do not have the power. In a spirit of inquiry, perhaps the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, will tell us whether he has given any consideration to any litigation. He has certainly referred to the Scottish matter in putting forward this draconian guillotine.

[Lord Goldsmith]

As the noble Lord invites me to speak, I have a question for him. I notice that there are three amendments—one relating to the English courts, one relating to the Scottish courts and one relating to the Northern Irish court—all in his name. All are otherwise identical with the same principle—do we consider the Bill before that litigation has concluded? Does he intend that those should all be dealt with separately, one after the other, taking the time that that undoubtedly will? If that is what he intends, does he not agree that is a clear case of wasting the House’s time and delaying getting on to the legislative business?

[Lord True]

That is an extraordinary intervention from the noble and learned Lord. I try to avoid lawyers as much as possible. As human beings, I regard them as friends, but as professionals I try to avoid them. I thought that the English court system, the Scottish court system and the system in Northern Ireland were separate systems and they went on separate tracks. There is a separate political establishment in Scotland as well. The litigation in Scotland has been concluded whereas in England, as I understand it, it has not been started. I am amazed that a lawyer of the experience of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, can come to this House and suggest that three jurisdictions and three separate tracks should be wrapped into one. It is perfectly legitimate to inquire of him and the Opposition whether he has any regard for the other jurisdictions. Perhaps he is not interested in the results in Scotland because the case has not come out in the way that he wanted. Perhaps he does not want my noble friend Lady Noakes to talk about it. I do not accept his criticisms.

I do not know whether the noble and learned Lord was in his place earlier when we were trying to come to a point when we did not need to do this. The only reason we are here is because an exceptional, unprecedented, draconian, repugnant guillotine Motion was put down. Those opposite have the power. The only power that the minority have in Parliament is the power to resist; we still have that freedom. The right of Members to put down amendments is precious in this House and should not be criticised. The impatience of power which one hears from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, is unattractive, however charmingly he puts it, as he always does.

For my part, I am totally unrepentant, but I cannot speak for others. I hope there will be an agreement and do not believe that this is the way to do business in the House. In any conflict, everyone says, “They started it”, but in this case, they did start it. Any extreme action provokes a counterreaction, and the counterreaction here is to defend the liberties of this House. The moment that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, stands up to withdraw the guillotine Motion, I will scrub every amendment in my name. I cannot speak for others, although I see my noble friend Lord Forsyth nodding, because it is entirely down to them. Until then, we will advocate and speak for those freedoms. Perhaps we could be enlightened on how the Opposition, who are leading this, view the interrelation between the court cases and what they are doing on this Bill. I beg to move.

[Lord Warner]

I suggest that the Question be now put.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Henley (Con)]

The noble and learned Lord says that the same amendment has been put down three times. As my noble friend pointed out, the amendments deal with three completely separate jurisdictions. If the noble and learned Lord opposite is not prepared to answer the various questions put by my noble friend, obviously he will have to come back to this again and again, as he has the opportunity to do when we come to the later amendments. It might actually speed up the process if the noble and learned Lord took the trouble to answer some of the points that my noble friend has made. In that case, when my noble friend gets to those later amendments, whenever that may be, he might not feel it necessary to intervene on them. It would assist the House if the noble and learned Lord gave us the views of the Opposition Front Bench on this amendment.

[Lord True]

My Lords, I had sat down. I had hoped for a response from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith. There was an attempt to move a totally unnecessary closure. In view of the failure to respond and the attempt to move a closure, which I am very grateful to the noble Lord for withdrawing, I wish to test the opinion of the House.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Noakes]

After first “Commons” to insert “, and only once current legal proceedings relating to prorogations in the Scottish courts have been concluded”.

[Baroness Noakes]

My Lords, Amendment 2E in the name of my noble friend Lord True was going to be moved by my noble friend Lord Forsyth. However, as our business has not progressed as quickly as we expected, he is on his way to catch the sleeper train to Scotland. I can tell that the House is disappointed that he is not taking part in dealing with this amendment.

I am pursuing what my noble friend Lord True started with the previous amendment: trying to find out how those who have tabled this Motion see the interaction between it and the proceedings taking place in the various courts mentioned. My noble friend Lord True dealt with the English court action. Amendment 2E deals with the proceedings relating to Prorogation in the Scottish courts.

The temporary interdict, as I think it is called in Scotland—those of us who learned our law elsewhere call it an injunction—was not granted. We had Lord Doherty’s judgment today. He said:

“This is political territory and decision making which cannot be measured against legal standards”.


He also said that accountability should rest with,

“parliament, and ultimately the electorate”.

From the point of view of those initial proceedings—this was in response to those taken by a number of MPs and noble Lords—that seems to be settled. However, as I understand it, there is a possibility of that decision being appealed.

Putting it more directly to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith—who I believe is answering on the Front Bench at the moment—since the original action has now been settled against those seeking an interdict, if the decision is appealed and it is determined that Prorogation should not take place, does that affect how the Motion is put together? Given that many noble Lords said earlier today that they believed they were forced into this action because of the nature of Prorogation, it seems to me that the need for this Motion falls away if Prorogation falls away.

These amendments have been drafted to establish the interconnection between the Motion and whether Prorogation is allowed to remain in place or is defeated by the various legal actions. I am trying to find out Her Majesty’s Opposition’s position on this from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Noakes]

After first “Commons” to insert “, and only once current legal proceedings relating to prorogations in the Northern Irish courts have been concluded”.

--- Later in debate ---

Amendment to the Motion (2G)

[Lord True]

Moved by

After “House of Commons, that” to insert “an urgent report be requested from the Constitution Committee on the propriety of the use of a guillotine motion, and should that Committee recommend its use, that”

[Lord True]

My Lords, I am further encouraged by the increasing numbers of “No” on the other side. I remind the House, and everybody who takes any interest in this debate, that the power lies on that side—there with the Liberals and the Labour Party, which have seized control in the House of Commons.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

This is about the 15th time that the noble Lord has made this point. Could he remind the House that the decisions being taken are being made by the whole House on a vote? It is not something which is just the product of the Labour Party or the Liberal Democrats. It is a decision of the House, and that is how it should be.

[Lord True]

The noble Lord can put his interpretation on it as he wishes; the Division lists will demonstrate who is closer to the truth. There will be a balance of opinion on the Cross Benches. I find it entirely extraordinary that the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrats, having forced through legislation in the House of Commons for perfectly good reasons of their own, now wish, before the Bill had even been presented—it has now been presented, we saw it arrive—to force a guillotine on this House. It is, again, the Liberal Democrats and the Labour Party, with some noble Lords in other parties; the bulk of the votes are there. Our proceedings are being broadcast, if anybody is watching. Those sitting opposite are on the Labour Benches; next to them are the Lib Dem Benches.

[Lord Cormack]

Can my noble friend not accept that there are a considerable number of his colleagues in this House who have given long and devoted service to the Conservative Party and who believe that the Conservative Government are on the wrong track?

[Lord True]

I think I have grasped that point on one or two occasions before from my noble friend. I do not deny that other people share that view, but the reality is that a power play is going on here, with the use of an instrument to control Parliament, to control this House, which has never been seen in this House before—the guillotine.

I am honoured to be a member of your Lordships’ Constitution Committee, which is one of the most important committees of the House—thank goodness that your Lordships’ House has such a committee. That committee is currently considering some of the issues that arise from fixed-term parliament legislation, and I hope that when its report is issued, it will be helpful to all of us in this House. But today, we are seeing constitutional issues on the make in front of us. We have an unprecedented, far-reaching Motion proposed which would, if it became part of the practice of this House, as it has become part of the practice of the other House, change the nature of parliamentary government in this country. That is absolutely the case.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

Having heard an identical speech many times in the course of this evening, I wonder whether the noble Lord could speak to his amendment so that we may hear the substance? It seems to me that we are being driven towards losing time by the prevarication of those who are speaking at great length and so often.

[Lord True]

This is entirely germane to the constitution. This amendment is about the need for the Constitution Committee of this House to consider the implications of such a dramatic change to the normal procedures of this Chamber. Surely we pride ourselves on the quality of our committees: that is one of the reasons why we are respected, in so far as we are still respected in this nation.

I am surprised by the concern about and hostility towards the idea of the Constitution Committee being involved to consider these matters. I think that it would be profoundly helpful. Is there some fear that the Constitution Committee might think that this is not a particularly helpful way to proceed in this House?

[Viscount Ridley (Con)]

I am most grateful to my noble friend for giving way. Does he recall, as I do, Members of this House, particularly from the Opposition Benches, asking on many occasions for things to be referred to the Constitution Committee because they wanted to check whether something was constitutional? It seems to me that there is a surprising degree of hypocrisy here.

[Lord True]

I do not normally like to use the H word, but it will be printed in Hansard and I will not be applying for it to be expunged.

[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Lab)]

I have listened to repeated references to hypocrisy, but the greatest hypocrisy of all is taking place before our eyes. I have listened to the noble Lord all afternoon: you have repeated over and again the same matters. You are filibustering. You are preventing us reaching a Bill of importance to this country, and you are doing it because you want to waste time. You do not want us to reach that Bill, which is about preventing no deal. That is the shocking thing. You are not interested in following through on what the elected House has done. The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, gave it away in a moment when someone asked, “Why are you making a Second Reading speech; you can make that on the Bill when it comes”, and she said, “If we reach it, I will make it”. She, you and many others are trying to prevent us reaching that Bill. That is disgraceful. It is a real disgrace, and you should be ashamed. I am ashamed watching this. This House has the respect of the country. You are bringing it into disrepute.

[Lord True]

I would like to think that the noble Baroness will reflect on the discourtesy of her words.

[A noble Lord]

Shame!

[Lord True]

There is nothing that I am doing, have done or have said nothing at any stage of these proceedings which is other than trying to defend—

[Lord Cavendish of Furness]

My Lords, will the noble Lord remind the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, that we are not discussing the Bill? The House got the Bill only an hour or two ago, if that. We are discussing the Business of the House Motion—and nothing more.

[Lord True]

That is absolutely correct. I am sorry, but from the start the noble Baroness has not been in her place throughout these debates. She may shake her head, but I have been here. My point is that this is about a guillotine, not the Bill. If the noble Baroness had been here earlier, she would have heard some exchanges across the Floor in which I made it very clear, for example through withdrawing an earlier amendment, that there is a route to accommodation here, that there is no need to go on with this procedure and that the guillotine Motion could be dropped. We on this side would certainly not risk considering in those circumstances, as I said earlier, to continue to press amendments. There should be a sensible usual channels deal; that deal is available and is being discussed at the moment, as I understand it. But no one, presented with a pistol put to their heads, as is the nature of this guillotine, would say, “Okay, all right, I trust you never to pull the trigger when you have bust into my house and changed the way that I have lived and worked in this place for 700 years”. We would not say, “Oh yes, I trust you”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Dobbs]

May I try to lower the temperature a little and smooth these choppy waters? I came into the House during the time of the coalition Government. I saw everything that I needed to know about filibustering from the Labour Benches when they tried to oppose so much of the then coalition Government’s constitutional programme. From an outside perspective, it appears that the general public look at us as Tweedledum and Tweedledumber. Can we back away from the idea that all fault lies on one side or the other and listen to my noble friend’s wise words?

[Lord True]

I thank my noble friend for that. I was not expecting such a vigorous attack. I said that I am not used to the courts or the law, but perhaps that is the way in which business is conducted in the courts of law; I would rather that it were not so in Parliament.

[Lord Patten of Barnes]

I am not sure that my noble friend Lord Dobbs was defending my noble friend Lord True. I think he was saying that the Labour Party has filibustered in the past, so its Members cannot grumble tonight about my noble friend filibustering; that is what he seemed to be saying. My noble friend has a very good degree from Cambridge—not everyone is perfect—so perhaps he can explain this to us: if this is not a filibuster, what is?

[Noble Lords]

Order!

[Lord True]

Perhaps the House will allow my noble friend to make remarks later.

My noble friend is very polite about my degree. I have tried to sustain an interest in what I learned in those days and what I learned from him when I was younger. He gave me my first job, so he is to blame. He needs to be extremely careful. There is the guilty man to whom the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, should direct her criticism. I would never have got involved in politics in the first place if the noble Lord had not given me a job.

On the question he asked, we have a guillotine hanging over us in this House. We are asked to put our head on the block for the blade to fall and for the nature of business in this House to be changed for ever. If I had been in the French Revolution, I would not have been one of those who marched readily and easily to have my head cut off in the guillotine. I would have wriggled and fought to make sure that we did not have the guillotine chop our necks off—or, in this case, chop our powers.

I am sorry that the Opposition—the people actually controlling the business in this House—cannot see that to use their power in this way is undesirable and deeply disappointing. I fought battles alongside the Liberal Democrats under the Labour Government, often in defence of coercive proposals put forward by the Blair and Brown Governments on things such as detention without trial; I was working here. We always fought for the liberties of the parliamentary system and the liberties of this country. That is what we are doing and what I am seeking to do in this place. Surely, let us have an independent judgment. Maybe the noble Baroness, with all her vigour, and—

[Lord Warner]

If the noble Lord looks around this House, he will see that there are almost as many people on the Cross Benches as on the Liberal Democrat Benches who I seem to have seen in the same Lobbies that I have been voting in for the last few hours. If I may say so, we represent an independent view on many of these amendments, and I thought the noble Lord had rather understated the role we have played in trying to progress so that we can get to the Bill itself. Perhaps the noble Lord would like to pursue that path.

[Lord True]

I acknowledge that the noble Lord moved from the Labour Benches to the Cross Benches after a long period. Having been invited to comment—I said something about the right reverend Prelates earlier that I perhaps should not have—I say that when I first had an acquaintance with this House, the Cross-Benchers in this House were the absolute guardians of the way in which this House should conduct itself. When things were put forward that were unusual, out of the ordinary, procedurally questionable or whatever, you knew that the Cross-Benchers would find that difficult and hard to accept. I cannot conceive that in 1999 the Cross-Benchers would have voted for a guillotine Motion of this kind. If history shows that things are changing, that is depressing and we will have to accept it.

I will conclude my remarks, which I was trying to do before I was interrupted by the former Labour Peer, the noble Lord, Lord Warner—

[Lord Lilley (Con)]

Before my noble friend concludes his remarks, can he reflect on the fact that the only remotely plausible argument against the case he has been making is a shortage of time, but some 900 days ago Parliament initiated the Article 50 process, which meant that from that point onwards it was the law of the land that we left the European Union with or without a withdrawal agreement? We have had some 900 days for Parliament, if it objected to the second option, to legislate in the way it is now trying to do at the last minute to prevent that option. For them to claim after 900 days that there is a shortage of time is implausible at best.

[Lord True]

My noble friend is entirely right. I had started to say that there is a difference of opinion across the House, but surely that means that there should be an independent judgment on the propriety of this procedure. We in this House all accept the wisdom of our cross-party committees. Why should it not be put to the Constitution Committee whether this kind of procedure is conducive to the good operation of our constitution and parliamentary government?

I remember that when the European withdrawal Bill was going through, not so very long ago, my noble friend Lord Taylor of Holbeach, who was then the Chief Whip of our party, was constantly put under pressure by some people on our side—I was not one of them because I detest the idea of a guillotine—to constrain proceedings. No one would say that certain Peers in this House were short of words during proceedings on that Act. However, my noble friend did not do that. He had the power but did not use it to constrain the House. Unfortunately, today we are seeing that the other side have a different view.

All my amendment asks is that an independent verdict be sought from the Constitution Committee on whether it is a good thing—

[Viscount Goschen (Con)]

My Lords, with regard to a referral to the Constitution Committee, of which my noble friend is a member, what would be the likely timing for how quickly the committee could meet, could take the evidence it requires and could produce a report? Timing clearly is one of the issues that is of significant concern to the House.

On the broader point, I urge the House to think very carefully before agreeing the precedent of introducing a guillotine. It is a major move. I have held my counsel during these debates but have been drawn to my feet by this issue and by the importance of the reference to the Constitution Committee. We should not nod this through, despite the lateness of the hour and despite the intensity of the political situation that is going on both here and in another place. I think the House would like to know how quickly the noble Lord, as a member of the Constitution Committee, believes that this could be done.

[Lord True]

The Constitution Committee meets weekly on Wednesdays. It would have been possible—

[Noble Lords]

Prorogation.

[Lord True]

My Lords, the reality is that possibly we are not going to that point. If, as I hope, there is an agreement through the usual channels and we can get the guillotine Motion withdrawn, it would be perfectly possible later this month for the Constitution Committee to consider this issue and report back.

[Baroness Stroud (Con)]

My Lords, I add my concern to the concern just expressed about the guillotine Motion. When we all received our Letters Patent from the Queen, there was a phrase:

“I give you a seat, a place and a voice in the House”.


For me, being given a voice to speak in the House was one of the greatest gifts that one could possibly be given. In my maiden speech, I committed myself to using the voice I have to speak up for those who could not speak for themselves. There are many people whose voices cannot be heard in this House and we have a responsibility here not to give away our voice but to ensure that we express it in this House. The guillotine Motion curtails that responsibility that we have been given. I would like my noble friend to comment.

[Lord True]

I thank my noble friend for that eloquent intervention. I agree—

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord True]

Is it not extraordinary that when a noble Baroness stands up and makes a heartfelt and serious contribution, we get guffaws from the tieless mob on the Back Benches?

[Lord Greaves]

I do not mind being called a mob, if that is what the noble Lord wants to call me, but we have rules for debate in this House, one of which is that speeches should be kept to 15 minutes, as at paragraph 4.36 in the Companion, if the noble Lord would like to consider it. He has now been speaking for 23 minutes, according to the annunciator. Does he think it is time to move on?

[Lord True]

The Companion actually says that anybody who is introducing an amendment is entitled to speak for 20 minutes. I was not proposing to speak for as long as that but I have taken a whole series of interventions which has consumed far more time than that. I therefore do not accept the criticism from the noble Lord. I have to say that, when I first came into the House, I did not find that he had the reputation of being one of the least loquacious Members of your Lordships’ House.

Happily, having heard the point made by my noble friend, one could consider removing the words “and should that Committee recommend its use”, if it is not possible to have that. But the principle that we should have a report from the Constitution Committee is so important that I hope we can least agree that we have a report later this month or next month on the matter. I beg to move.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)]

My Lords, I simply want to point out to the noble Lord that committees of this House and the other House cannot meet during Prorogation. Therefore, the timescale is rather tight.

Motion

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Noakes]

Leave out paragraph (1) and insert—

“(1) Standing Order 40(4) to 40(9) (Arrangements of the Order Paper) be dispensed with in relation to any bill sent from the House of Commons relating to the United Kingdom’s exit from the European Union.”

[Baroness Noakes]

My noble friend Lord True is detained elsewhere at the moment, but I will not disappoint noble Lords by not allowing the House to hear about Amendment 2J. We are moving on to amendments to paragraph (1) of the Motion in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, so noble Lords may wish to note that we are making progress—we have got past the initial preamble to the Motion and are now on paragraph (1).

Paragraph (1) of the Motion provides that,

“Standing Order 40(3) to 40(9) … be dispensed with”,

to allow proceedings on the Bill to be handled. Amendment 2J suggests removing only Standing Order 40(4) to 40(9), leaving Standing Order 40(3) extant. The purpose of tabling the amendment is to explore with the mover of the Motion why the quite draconian suspension of Standing Orders, which have served this House very well, is needed in this case. Standing Order 40 has been in our Standing Orders since 1954.

Standing Order 40(3) says:

“Subject to paragraph (1), notices relating to the Business of the House and to the Chairman of Committees’ Business, if he so desires, shall have priority over other Public Business”.


Standing Order 40(1) says:

“Oral Questions shall be entered before other business”.


The Motion in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, would remove the provision about notices relating to private business and the Chairman of Committees, if he so desired, being entered before public business—in other words, before handling any Bill that came. We do not think that a case has been made for removing this important part of our Standing Orders—certainly, no argument has been put for any part of the Motion.

We believe that the Standing Orders are an important part of the way this House operates and has operated well over many years. We have them to ensure that we know how business will be conducted, so any suggestion that we should remove or suspend any part of our Standing Orders should be taken seriously by your Lordships’ House, because we would be overturning many years of tradition. The purpose of the amendment is, as I said, to reinstate Standing Order 40(3), because we believe that it is important. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Noakes]

Leave out paragraph (1) and insert—

“(1) Standing Order 40(3) and 40(5) to 40(9) (Arrangements of the Order Paper) be dispensed with in relation to any bill sent from the House of Commons relating to the United Kingdom’s exit from the European Union.”

[Baroness Noakes]

My Lords, I had already arranged with my noble friend Lord True that I would speak to Amendment 2K. It is similar to Amendment 2J, which I moved on behalf my noble friend. It relates again to Standing Order 40. Paragraph 1 of the Motion tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, dispenses with Standing Order 40(3) to 40(9). This amendment would dispense with Standing Order 40(3) and 40(5) to 40(9) but would leave in place Standing Order 40(4), which says:

“On all sitting days except Thursdays, notices and orders relating to Public Bills, Measures, Affirmative Instruments and reports from Select Committees of the House shall have precedence over other notices and orders save the foregoing”.


As I said when I moved the previous amendment, we should play around with Standing Orders only when it is absolutely necessary. I do not think that we had a convincing explanation from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, as to why these parts of Standing Order 40 have been chosen to be dispensed with to speed up the Bill that has come from the other place.

Standing Order 40(4) says that,

“On all sitting days except Thursdays”,

these notices and orders are important. Of course, the Motion relates only to Thursday and Friday, which is not a normal sitting day. It is open to question why the preparers of this Motion have decided to eliminate Standing Order 40(4). We should override Standing Orders, which are there to help us to do business efficiently and properly on a regular basis, only when we completely understand why they are being removed. Amendment 2K is designed to ensure that Standing Order 40(4) remains intact despite the Motion proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I endorse the words of the Government Chief Whip and of the Leader of the Opposition. Passions run very high on this issue in your Lordships’ House, as they do across the country. It is not surprising that they have been high today. Carrying on through 24 or 48 hours, as we have been doing, in a sort of pathetic attempt to set a new Guinness world record for consecutive votes in your Lordships’ House, would not do anybody any favours.

These Benches felt it was key to ensure that this Bill, which we shall be receiving tomorrow, was able to finish its passage in your Lordships’ House before the weekend and that it would then get Royal Assent before Prorogation. With the assurances that we have had from the Minister, I feel confident that this will happen, so this is a positive outcome.

I cannot finish without thanking colleagues on my and other Benches who have supported us during a very long period. I am pleased that I will not be needing to use my duvet.

[Lord True]

My Lords, I am grateful for what has been said. I had my toothbrush as well. I think that we were in a good place some hours ago. In this House, it is always wise to reach agreement. I believe that I speak for all my colleagues, who never had any intention to frustrate.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord True]

It is extraordinary that, when one is trying to round something off amicably, some people mutter in that way. The purpose of all the amendments—the noble Baroness on the Front Bench opposite was extraordinarily gracious on this point—was to guard against the guillotine, something that the noble Baroness said was not desirable in this House. As far as I am concerned, we will give an undertaking that we will abide by any usual channels agreement, as Back-Benchers in this House always do. Certainly, if another attempt is ever made to bring forward a guillotine Motion of this kind, it can expect the same sort of resistance, irrespective of the issue concerned.

I am grateful to those who have been tolerant and to those who have not been quite so tolerant. I am grateful to those who have been kindly and to those who have been less than kind. Everybody wishes the best for this great House and I think that a sensible deal has been reached. I thank all my colleagues who have stayed, supported, thought and voted. I hope that they will support 100%, as I do, the spirit and letter of the agreement. I thank all those involved.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I omitted to say that I am very grateful to all noble Lords on all sides of the House for staying so long. For the avoidance of doubt, we are not taking the rest of the business tonight.

Business of the House

Lord True Excerpts

Thursday 4th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. I really want to respond to the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde.

[Lord True (Con)]

Will the noble Lord give way?

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

No, I am making an intervention. It is not for me to give way to the noble Lord, much though I am sure we will be happy to hear from him in due course. The point I want to make to the noble Lord is that this House has dealt with emergency legislation in one day. I refer him to the Human Reproductive Cloning Bill, which I took through this House on 26 November 2001, with a Second Reading and Committee in one day. It was to stop a scientist from another country who was coming to the UK to carry out human cloning, and legislation was needed urgently. We took it in one day. This legislation is needed urgently because we do not have a functioning Executive, we have the most critical situation this country has faced in decades and the Commons has had to do what it did. That is why it is urgent. Surely the noble Lord can see that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

My Lords, the House of Commons sent us a Bill that its Members consider urgent. We should get on and consider its merits and demerits. Forty-nine noble Lords have put their names down for Second Reading, including the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. There will be ample time during Second Reading for all these points to be explored. I suggest that we get on and do it.

[Lord True]

My Lords, when the great US Constitution was written, there is a story of, I believe, Thomas Jefferson—

[Noble Lords]

Order!

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[Noble Lords]

Which Question?

[Lord True]

My Lords, we must vote on the closure Motion that the noble Lord has moved, stopping a number of people who wish to address an important point in so far as the procedure of this House is concerned. If I can be helpful to the noble Lord, the procedure is that we now vote on that, if he would like to move for closure.

[The Deputy Speaker]

My Lords, there is no debate on this. The Question is that the Question be now put.

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Moved by

[Lord True]

Leave out from “move” to the end and insert “notwithstanding the non-binding resolution of the House of 28 January that Her Majesty’s Government should provide sufficient time for this House to ensure the timely passage of legislation necessary to implement any deal or proposition that has commanded the support of the majority of the House of Commons, that this House does not consider it is in keeping with the traditions and procedures of the House of Lords, its proper scrutinising role or its function as a safeguard of the constitution to apply unprecedented procedures to this Bill, and therefore declines to dispense with normal Standing Orders.”

[Lord True]

My Lords, it is probably worth placing on the record what has happened so far today, because it is germane to the argument I wish to put to your Lordships. It is the same argument that I put to my Front Bench last week: your Lordships would make a grave error if they adopted the habit of not adhering to their Standing Orders. Last week I was rather disobliging to my Front Bench, and I apologise if I was a little sharp to my noble friend the Leader of the House. I submitted to the House—and found some support across the House, although notably it was whipped against by the Front Bench opposite—that it would be wise for your Lordships to wait for a report from the appropriate committee before taking a grave and important decision. The Government declined to do so. What transpired afterwards was that no doubt the Government took advice from wiser people than me, and wiser people outside the House. The Government actually adjourned the House the next day to do precisely what I had asked them to do the previous day and waited to hear the report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. I condemn the Government’s attempt to set aside Standing Orders, but I congratulate them on listening.

Today we have a similar but even graver attempt to set aside our Standing Orders, which comes not from the Front Bench of the Government but from Her Majesty’s Official Opposition. Let us be under no illusion here: that side is whipped and is acting not at the behest of the slightly risible figure of Sir Oliver Letwin. It is the Labour Party that provides all the votes for Sir Oliver Letwin—the bulk of the votes—that is moving this procedure today and that is seeking to abuse the procedures of the House, with the support of the Liberal Democrats. I believe that when the Official Opposition seek to usurp the role of the Government and to set aside the proper procedures in this place, they should submit themselves to the same scrutiny as the Government are required to do, which we glory in every day. Why do we come here every day?

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I am beginning to wonder—

[Lord True]

What did the noble Lord say? Would the noble Lord like to stand up and repeat what he said?

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

No.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I said I am beginning to wonder why the noble Lord comes here every day.

[Lord True]

The noble Lord is a great wag, is he not? I have often thought the same about him, but I find him too engaging to have said such a thing.

I return to my argument. One thing I regret about the amendment I have tabled—but it was necessary because of the nature of the Bill before us—is that it mentions the House applying,

“unprecedented procedures to this Bill”.

I believe my amendment would be better if it said “any non-emergency Bill”. I think your Lordships are teetering slightly on the edge of a different dangerous place from that which was put to us earlier in the debate. In this part of our proceedings, the argument is ultimately about procedure. That may be arcane, but later in my remarks I will develop why I think that that is extremely important.

Our first discussion today was when my noble friend asked us to go into Committee. I would like to have spoken on that and I will now develop the points that I would have made then because they are absolutely germane to the point. My noble friend was responding to a situation where the Official Opposition, at the behest of the Labour Party, has come to the House and for the first time is asking your Lordships to accept this unusual procedure: the combination of the Bill before us and what happened in the Commons yesterday. That deserves to be examined. Why did my noble friend suggest that we should go into Committee? The reason was shown to us. When the former Leader of the House, my noble friend Lord Strathclyde, tried to intervene on the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, based on all of his experience—my noble friend Lord Strathclyde enjoys great respect on both sides of the House because he is a great servant to this place—he wanted to ask for an explanation from the noble Baroness, acting for the Official Opposition, about usurping the role of the Government and demanding that this House pass legislation which is not approved by the Government in one day, she declined to take his intervention.

That showed me why my noble friend was right to ask that we should go into Committee. Why should not the Official Opposition or anyone else who might want to use this procedure in the future not be required to make the same response to the House on the whys and wherefores as a Minister of the Crown who comes before noble Lords has to do? What is it about the Official Opposition with this bogus cry—

[Lord Robathan]

I am very interested in what my noble friend is saying. For clarification, do the people who are backing this not understand that this will be used against them if it is allowed to continue?

[Lord True]

Well, my Lords, it is for each noble Lord to draw whatever conclusion he or she wishes. I simply draw attention to the fact that this is a device that is being used by the Official Opposition, with the approval of the leader of the Labour Party, against the House of Lords.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, to support my noble friend Lord Robathan, the point he has not made clearly is that members of the Opposition wish to be sitting on this side of the House, and one day they will. They will then find the dragon’s teeth they sowed cutting away at their feet.

[Lord True]

I am sure that my noble friend is right but really I am not so interested in the politics of the matter. Of course that is the case, but it is the case of life and of democracy. The cry of democracy is that the people choose and the Government change. That is the glory of freedom. What is going on in the House of Commons, with your Lordships being suborned to assist in it, is that those who the people of this country did not choose are trying to use the procedures of both Houses to deny the people of this country what they actually did choose, which was to leave the European Union.

[Lord Spicer (Con)]

One of the reasons why the Opposition are using the strange technique that my noble friend has exposed is in search of the word “compromise”. Surely that is something that we are going to have to look at later in the proceedings. That is because in a binary situation, you cannot have a compromise: you are either in the European Union or you are out of it. You particularly cannot reach a compromise with someone who is an extreme socialist and is using that as his red line.

[Lord True]

Again, my noble friend makes a strong point that takes us to the substance of the Bill, which we will discuss later. After many years in the usual channels trying to do the best for this House, and 13 years of opposition when we never attempted a procedure of this kind, I am trying to say to noble Lords, particularly our reasonable colleagues on the Cross Benches, that we should be cautious about waving this through so easily.

Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, had a bad day in court because he jumped up and tried to cut off argument. Are lawyers not supposed to listen? I apologise because the noble Lord is not in his place, but he did not allow anyone else to make the case for going into Committee. I turn to the last Motion we had. Let me remind noble Lords of what was before the House.

[Noble Lords]

We know what it was.

[Lord True]

Noble Lords may know but they need to be reminded and the world outside needs to understand. The last proposition was that in relation to this Bill, shoved through the House of Commons late at night, which a former Leader of the House has just risen to tell us has flaws which need to be examined and addressed in Committee, we should be prepared not to set aside the Standing Orders but to look at its different stages on different days. Perhaps we could take the Second Reading today and take the remaining stages on another day. Is that such an unexceptionable proposition? Is that not what your Lordships are here for? I repeat the question I put earlier: why do your Lordships come here, if not to scrutinise? What is the purpose of the House if not to scrutinise properly?

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for giving way. I just make the point that this House has been asked by the other place to consider a Bill that it would like to pass. We are debating issues here that could have been debated on so many other occasions. We have been passing statutory instruments for no deal without impact assessments and without proper consultation. We have overridden, when it has been convenient for those who perhaps want to leave with no deal, but this is about stopping us crashing out with no deal and giving the Prime Minister the support she may need to stand firm and go back to the European Union to ask for a longer extension so that we do not crash out with no deal.

[Lord True]

My noble friend is entirely wrong. That is not the point before the House in this Motion. Indeed, the procedure I have suggested would still allow the Bill to be passed. However, since when has it been the function of this House to say “Yes, sir” to any piece of legislation suddenly rushed down the Corridor? That is the proposition being put to us by my noble friend Lady Altmann: “The House of Commons has asked us to pass this, so we must be pass it. Get on with it”. Every time someone comes to this House bearing papers with a green ribbon on them, they are asking us to agree. Of course they want us to agree and they would probably prefer us to do so quickly, but we do not have to. That is called freedom and it is called scrutiny. It is also called consideration, but none of that is allowed for in the procedures that have been put before us today. The Bill comes with no Explanatory Notes and not even a name on it, as the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, admitted, yet we are being asked to pass it in a hurry or we are behaving badly. The day when the House of Lords is behaving badly because it is giving proper due consideration to a proposed Act of Parliament in the time that is sufficient and necessary for it to do so, as the noble Baroness asks in her amendment, is the beginning of the end for the House of Lords. That will be when the House of Lords says, “Yes, sir, we all want to go home”. I am sorry, but we need to be mindful of the importance of proper procedures.

I do not care for tweeting but I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, is a great tweeter. I was sleepless last night, thinking about what I might say today, so I had a look at what she had been tweeting. Your Lordships will be interested to know that on 24 February—you can look it up—she sent out a tweet complaining that the Government might want to get the withdrawal Act through in 10 days. She tweeted that the House of Lords does not have programme Motions; the House of Lords needs time to consider things. That was on 24 February.

It ought to be 1 April today—it is 4 April—because the noble Baroness has come forward with a programme Motion in which she says that the House of Lords cannot have more than one day to consider this matter. I do not eat Devonshire clotted cream, but I find the noble Baroness’s position as rich as that.

While I am talking about the noble Baroness, I feel I must say how discourteous it was to the House to table this Motion so late. We heard from the putative Prime Minister, Sir Oliver Letwin, yesterday morning that he had been discussing matters with his friends down the Corridor—who are here in person—so why could she not have tabled this Motion before that? She tabled it before the Bill had arrived from the House of Commons and knew what was there. She could have given better notice to the House but failed to do so. She tried to bounce the House at the very last minute and then came up with this trumpery that something has to be passed quickly when the Prime Minister has already said that she will do what the Bill asks her to do.

What nonsense is this? Why are noble Lords going along with this nonsense and being prepared to set aside their Standing Orders?

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Talking about Standing Orders—

[Lord True]

I have taken one intervention from the noble Lord and that was enough. All right, I will be different from his Front Bench.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Talking about Standing Orders, the noble Lord, Lord True, will recall from when he was bag carrier for the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, that the Companion to the Standing Orders recommends that speeches should not exceed 15 minutes. He has now been speaking for 17 minutes. Would it not be appropriate for him to draw his remarks to a close?

[Lord True]

My Lords, I am introducing an amendment to a Motion, which is a different matter. I ask the noble Lord and others to consider that this is a matter of extreme importance to the House. In this little book—I do not know if the noble Lord has ever read it or knows what it is—are the Standing Orders of your Lordships’ House, which have been established over centuries to protect our procedures and to help secure the liberties of the British people. They should not be lightly set aside. We set them aside frequently when there is an emergency, but on no basis of credible argument can what is going on today be considered an emergency. It is a charade—“chicanery” was the word used earlier—to enlist this great House in the political activities of the Labour Party, with which certain useful people in other parties, such as the Liberal Democrats, may go along.

The Liberal Democrat Leader should have been heard. Why did the noble Lord, Lord Warner, tell the House to choke off debate when the leading member of the Liberal Democrats wanted to follow the important remarks of the Leader of the House? It was wrong. That procedure of closure is also in our Standing Orders but it is not without reason that there is a note saying that it should not be lightly entered into. The noble Lord, Lord Warner, entered into it rather lightly.

What we have here is a pre-cooked plot—the gaff was blown by Sir Oliver Letwin in the other place yesterday—but it is the tip of the iceberg. One of my colleagues said earlier that if your Lordships consent to this kind of procedure being standard, what will happen when another Government are formed and a different person on the Front Bench says, “We set aside these Standing Orders. Your Lordships may consider this to be a scrutinising House but, no, it all has to be done in a day”? That is where we are heading.

That is not my surmise or what I am suggesting; it is what we see from the Official Opposition. As to the person who may be sitting here in a few months’ time if there were an election, what demur or doubt would she have in bringing forward such a Motion to frustrate your Lordships’ ability to consider and scrutinise legislation? Once you begin with a little sin and a little lie, big ones readily follow. We should be extremely cautious in assenting to this setting aside of Standing Orders.

[Lord Lilley]

Has my noble friend noticed the internal inconsistency of the Motion of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter? It begins by referring back to the resolution of the House on 28 January that Her Majesty’s Government “should provide sufficient time”. It then goes on to curtail the time available to the House to consider this. How can both halves of the Motion be passed in one breath?

[Lord True]

My noble friend is right. He has anticipated the fast-approaching conclusion of what I will say.

It cannot be right not to allow sufficient time to consider a Bill which, as we have heard from my Front Bench, is still flawed; on which committees that have reported raised doubts; and which was being amended on the hoof by its own proponents in the House of Commons last night. There is no argument in logic because the Prime Minister has said that she will ask for a delay. There is no argument in procedure to say that we have to pass the Bill today. It is a political position taken up by the Official Opposition—I repeat, the Official Opposition—and we should not support it.

Everything I have sought to do in politics—and, by the way, I was proud to be the bag carrier, as the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, so kindly put it, to my noble friend Lord Strathclyde—both in administration and local government, and the privilege I have in being a Member of your Lordships’ House, is to speak for freedom. One of things that defines the freedom of this House is its free procedures: the right of us all to put down an amendment and to have it heard, not closed; and the right of us all to put down a Motion and have it closed, not waved away. These things may seem small and arcane to those on the outside but, to me, they are a small part of freedom—and I have always wished to live and conclude my life in that. I beg to move.

[Lord Baker of Dorking (Con)]

Could my noble friend reflect on the fact that it would be a great disappointment if, after he sat down, someone were to move that the following person who wants to speak should not be heard? That would amount to a bigger abuse of procedure altogether. Curtailment of debate in this House is a serious matter. There should not be curtailment and I find it extraordinary that the Liberal Democrats and the Cross Benches go along with it. I remind them what JS Mill wrote in On Liberty. He warned democracy about the tyranny of the majority. He thought that that was the greatest threat to democracy. There is a clear majority on the Benches opposite that this Bill should pass. There is a minority on this side of the House. To silence the minority is very much against the principles of JS Mill, the founder of the Liberal Party. He would not have approved at all. I beg Members not to move the closure Motion too quickly because it is abuse of a basic democratic principle. This is an abuse of majority power. This House should not be sanctioning it.

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[Lord Hope of Craighead]

Some of them may have done, but the noble Lord should not assume that the group as such supported them.

[Lord True]

I would like to move to a conclusion, although I of course respect and acknowledge the noble and learned Lord’s intervention. Indeed, I suspect that the House, because it is pre-cooked, will not want to listen to what I am saying today, but I say to the House that this is the tip of a very deep and dark iceberg if we go on this way. Part of the protection of freedom in this House has been the existence of the Cross Benches. The Cross Benches are sometimes, often and always used to be prepared to listen and be the balance in the argument. Who will be a guardian, that balancing element in this House that guards against the tyranny of either of the great parties, if they survive this crisis, which wish to tip aside our procedures, supress what we normally do and allow proper scrutiny? Who will be the protectors of that if not the Cross Benches?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Following the point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, I say that it is perfectly true that the Cross Benches do not take a collective view. It is also true that the two previous closure Motions were moved by Cross-Benchers and quite a large number of them voted for them.

[Lord True]

On these things, people have to stand up and be counted. I reflect that having made my speech last week against a strong Whip from my party saying that we should obey Standing Orders, I did not regret it and I asked myself whether I should intervene in this debate—I have intervened only on the Standing Order and the procedural point—and do it again. I felt that I must because not only is the pace so extraordinary but it is so odd that 227 Members of the House of Lords— your Lordships’ House, the revising Chamber—voted to close off, after a few minutes, discussion of whether your Lordships should allow yourselves more than one day to discuss a Bill of such importance and such significance. I think that was a sad reflection on our love of our procedures which I confess are part of our freedom. Our freedoms were won by Parliament. They are held by Parliament and we in this place have a part in that, irrespective of where we stand on the debates on Europe. One thing I agree with my noble friend Lady Evans on is that we have heard a lot, but surely on this business of how we conduct ourselves we can rise above the debates that we are having later and consider whether this House wishes to embark down this road. I submit that when I suggested to my noble friend on the Front Bench last week that the Government should listen and adhere to Standing Orders, they did listen. They adjourned the House and we had the debate the next day. I now submit to the noble Baroness that she should show the same grace and that she should accept the proposition that we hear one stage today and have time to reflect on the later stages of the Bill on another day. That is not an unreasonable provision. I put that submission in conclusion to the noble Baroness.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

This is an abuse of our procedures. Can it stop?

[Lord True]

I would have stopped 30 seconds later if the noble Lord had not risen. He calls it an abuse of Parliament. I call it the right of any Member of Parliament to put the case for proper procedures, freedom and accountability, and accountability lies there just as it must lie here.

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, I shall begin by responding to the noble Lord, Lord Baker, who very helpfully quoted Mill at me. I absolutely agree that democracy requires the exercise of free speech. It also requires the following of rules and the exercise of its powers with responsibility. We have just heard a 30-minute speech. It may have been an excellent speech, and I am sure that if I now speak for 30 minutes it will be an excellent speech as well, but if I speak for 30 minutes, and all my colleagues speak for 30 minutes, we will never get to the substance of today’s debate. Therefore, your Lordships will be pleased to know that I do not intend to speak for 30 minutes—25 should be enough.

The burden of all these amendments is that the House is being expected to follow unprecedented procedures. Is this surprising? We are in extraordinary, unprecedented times. We are in a national crisis the like of which has not occurred in my lifetime. It is a national crisis which consists in no small part of the fact that there has been a collapse of government. The Prime Minister, after seven hours in Cabinet, addressed the nation to say that she would like the leader of the Opposition to tell her what to do and that, if she did not like that, she would go to the House of Commons and ask it to tell her what to do within hours of having to put something to the European Council next week in order to prevent no-deal Brexit. This collapse of government is unprecedented, and it would be slightly surprising if Parliament did not respond to it by taking unprecedented measures to fill the vacuum where normally one finds government. The third unprecedented point, which is unprecedented in human history, is that unless we prevent a no-deal Brexit at the end of next week, this country will be the first democracy ever to have agreed to make itself poorer, less secure and less influential. Therefore, it is unprecedented and needs dealing with in unprecedented ways.

The key element which means that it is necessary to deal with this Bill today is just how little time there is. We are talking about a very few days before the Prime Minister has to write to the European Council, hopefully with some view about why we should have a further extension. As of this minute, the only thing that can be written in that letter about why we are doing it is because we cannot think of what we want. I hope that by close of business on Monday we will be a bit further forward on that, but, if this House blocks this Bill, as the noble Lord, Lord Owen, whom I do not always agree with, said earlier, how would that be perceived? How would it be perceived if we were to agree with the noble Lord, Lord True, that we could not possibly deal with this until a Select Committee had dealt with it? At a time of national crisis, I think that the world would think that your Lordships had lost a sense of proportion.

The other argument that has been made against the Bill, including by the noble Baroness the Leader of the House, is that it is unnecessary because of a commitment made by the Prime Minister. However, it is a sign of the confidence that the Commons has in the Prime Minister that it does not think that that is enough. It thinks—and I agree—that, unless we have something like this Bill, there is absolutely no assurance that the Prime Minister will come forward with the necessary guarantee.

Finally, I have two points to make about the amount of time that we have to debate the Bill. First, we will have longer to debate the Bill, the less time we waste on these procedural Motions. Secondly, I look forward to the debates that we shall have later. I look forward to the Second Reading and to debating amendments in Committee and on Report. I have brought my toothbrush. It will not be the first time that I have spent all night in your Lordships’ House, and many of my colleagues have done the same. We are here at the service—says he very pompously—of the country to debate this issue for as long as the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, and his colleagues want to debate it. No doubt we will hear the same arguments time and time again but, if that is what the noble Lord wants, I shall, as always, look forward to hearing them and will be in my place to listen to them, however long it takes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Noakes]

I thank my noble friend for that. I had reached the end of reading through Standing Order 46, which is an important foundational part of our procedures. I remind noble Lords that it has been in existence since 1715. It has served us well for more than 200 years, so we should be very careful about tinkering with it. It is the case, in many instances, that those rules can be modified if noble Lords agree. It is usually done through the usual channels, in a way that achieves consensus. That has not been the case on this occasion. It is nearly always done so that there is a minimum of two days. I have been involved in a number of bits of legislation that have been done on an accelerated basis, but I have never seen one rammed through in one day like this.

I have never seen a Bill not leave the other place until just before midnight but be on the Order Paper here for all stages the following day. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, tabled her Motion—in effect, to take over the procedures of the House to do it in one day—only yesterday. Many noble Lords will not even have seen that until they got today’s papers. This is all highly irregular and is working against the ability of this House to scrutinise this legislation properly.

[Lord True]

I was not allowed to respond to the debate in which I spoke about this subject. The noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Strathclyde, made a sensible and constructive point: instead of trying to push this through it should be remitted to the usual channels. As many noble Lords on all sides have said, we could do this in the normal way for accelerated Bills: a Second Reading now and Committee another day. Why will the Opposition Front Bench not agree to that?

[Baroness Noakes]

My noble friend makes very good points. I hope that the Front Bench opposite is reflecting on them.

The House is being asked to handle this Bill on a one-day basis and, in effect, tear up the rules under which we normally consider legislation. This has led to a speakers’ list being closed before this business Motion is even finished. This Motion was not available to noble Lords until they came in this morning, so some will not have had the opportunity to put their names down to speak at Second Reading.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Robathan]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for filling up a couple of minutes. It is not five years, as it happens.

[Lord True]

The point being lost here is that which I based my remarks on, which is simple. Noble Lords opposite should be asked when the last precedent was for this abuse of our procedures. That is the fundamental point. I have heard 30, 40 or 50 speeches from the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, on this subject. I have made about five in the period, so I think we are entitled to have our say in this House.

[Lord Robathan]

I think that is right, and I am still not going to talk about the B-word. Furthermore, I intended to be brief, so I shall sit down very shortly—unless I get any more helpful interventions from the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, or somebody else.

There is no precedent, as the noble Lord said, for five closure Motions, or whatever we have had today. But then there is no precedent for the Business of the House Motion that we have in front of us. I genuinely think, not just because I take a different view on leaving the European Union from many in this House, that if we start tinkering with our procedures, we will all rue the day. When closing down the debate on this Business of the House Motion, I say to noble Peers opposite and elsewhere in the House: be careful what you wish for.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, in the Statement that the Chief Whip just made, he said that he expects subsequent stages to be concluded on Monday. Given the proceedings we have seen all day today, is he giving a guarantee on behalf of the Government that they will be concluded on Monday?

[Lord True]

My Lords, if I intervene perhaps I might help the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes. My interventions in this debate, as they were last week, were simply on procedural grounds. I hope that the noble Baroness will withdraw her Motion so that we do not have a precedent for such a Motion on the Order Paper. We have an agreement in the usual channels. We have an undertaking that we will complete Second Reading today and all other stages on Monday. I can speak only for myself, but I welcome the agreement in the usual channels. It is how we should have proceeded from the start. I will not table any amendments on the Order Paper for Committee or Report, in the spirit of co-operation that there is in the House. I ask the noble Baroness to consider, in these circumstances, whether she should not withdraw her Motion so as not to create the precedent of a Motion being forced, because I would feel obliged to divide the House on principle against it. I thank the usual channels and those wise heads on all sides of this House who have come to this agreement. Let us get on with Second Reading and, as we have just heard, consider the Bill properly on Monday. Everybody will want to get this Bill considered with dispatch. Looking around the House, I do not see any noble Lord dissenting from that. So I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw the Motion.

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

I think the noble Lord was trying to be helpful. Unfortunately, without my Motion we would remain unable to deal with more than one stage; we would have to use the normal intervals between them. Therefore I am afraid that we do need my amendment to the Standing Orders to do that. Therefore I wish this Motion to be put to the House.

Business of the House

Lord True Excerpts

Tuesday 26th March 2019 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord True]

To leave out from first “that” to the end and to insert “this House declines to consider the draft European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 (Exit Day) (Amendment) Regulations 2019 until a report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments on the draft Regulations has been laid before the House, as it is not in accordance with the practice and traditions of the House to consider significant affirmative instruments laid by Her Majesty’s Government without prior consideration by that Committee.”

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the Leader of the House for what she has said and, if I may, I will respond to that in my opening remarks, rather than at the end. For the avoidance of doubt, I must make it clear that I do not have any intention of using this amendment to either extend or not extend our stay in the European Union. Noble Lords who have followed our debates know my view. I deplore the fact that we are not leaving on Friday, but I recognise the circumstances that the Leader of the House has referred to; I personally will not make, recommend or participate in any attempt to talk out that statutory instrument, and I know of no proposal to do so. Therefore, any such suspicion is completely unfounded and it is no pretext for the Executive to evade the normal procedures of Parliament on these highly significant regulations that we will debate tomorrow.

Having set that aside, perhaps I may get on to the fundamental point that I want to make. I speak as someone who spent 13 years in the usual channels of this House and who has been a Member in the nine years that have followed. I have come to understand that there is no greater protection of this House, or indeed of Parliament as a whole, than the freedoms that your Lordships enjoy in procedure and the duties that are laid on the Executive. It is the flexible freedom that we have, and the demands that we are able to make of the Executive, that have enabled this House to become the undoubted master of scrutiny.

In these troubling constitutional times I submit that, wherever we stand, it is more important than ever that the House should protect its working procedures. If the Executive is incoherent and not consulting Parliament soon enough—or not consulting it enough—and if the other place now collectively purports to act as the Executive, then who provides the scrutiny if not this House and its committees?

The Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments is not a committee of this House but of both Houses. It exists to protect both Houses against the inappropriate exercise of powers by the Executive. We have in our Standing Orders something the other House does not: a requirement that a report is laid before Parliament by that committee before an important matter is debated. This Standing Order is a protection not only for this House but for the other.

The Joint Committee does a remarkable job. Over the last 18 months it has almost invariably met weekly on Wednesdays; we have heard my noble friend the Minister confirm that it will be meeting again tomorrow—I imagine at 3.45 pm, as always. Since November 2017, it has produced 56 reports, drawing 163 statutory instruments to your Lordships’ attention. Anyone who follows its work knows its importance.

I will not concern myself with the merits of the statutory instruments that might—and will—be considered by the Joint Committee. Neither will I consider this particular statutory instrument, which is not before us today. What is before us is an exceptional Motion from the Executive to set aside our Standing Orders and potentially defeat the need for a report on this very important SI by your Lordships’ Joint Committee before we debate this momentous matter.

In the Explanatory Memorandum just one reason is given. Paragraph 3.1 says that,

“there will be insufficient time for the Committee to report on this instrument in the normal manner”.

I ask your Lordships to hold that phrase, “in the normal manner”, in mind. The Leader of the House says that we have to vacate Standing Order 72. I will come back to the question of time, but let me draw your Lordships’ attention to the exceptional nature of the Leader’s Motion before us: to bypass the requirement for a report from this key parliamentary committee for both Houses. The clerks have told me—I am grateful for their advice—that there have been four such Motions this century—just four. One of those was last October when the Joint Committee was not even in existence.

This underlines the exceptional nature of a Motion to set aside our Standing Orders requiring the Joint Committee report to be laid before the statutory instrument is moved. I do not believe that this vacation of the duty of the Joint Committee to report can be justified, particularly as my noble friend the Minister has confirmed that the Joint Committee is meeting tomorrow to consider the matter. I do not accept the plea that there was no time. My noble friend the Minister has told us that the Joint Committee was informed last Friday. Its guidelines say that it is normal for the Joint Committee to take five working days to consider a matter, but equally the guidelines make provisions for it be done more expeditiously. I have no doubt—

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I am having some difficulty in following the noble Lord’s line of argument. I would have thought that his remarks would be better directed at the Prime Minister. After all, it is she who has prevaricated about letting the House of Commons make the decision in this regard and then twice ignored its views. With the greatest respect to him, given the dire situation that we are in, what alternative do we have but to take this SI as soon as possible?

[Lord True]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes a political point.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord True]

I was seeking to make a procedural point on behalf of your Lordships’ House. Our normal procedures are not there to protect the Government, let alone to protect them from any criticism, but to protect Members of your Lordships’ House and of the other place to allow them to make representations and for us to hear a considered report. I believe that that is the procedure that we should follow.

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[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I have said that this is an unusual situation: that is why I am here asking the House to agree that we can do this. It is only right to do that. This has been done on a number of occasions. I am not saying in any way that this is a usual situation; I have tried to set out the timeline that has led us to this and I say again that I believe that, for the country, our discussing this SI tomorrow and—I hope—passing it will mean that this House has played an important part in providing certainty to our citizens and businesses so that we can move forward and leave in an orderly fashion. On that basis, I hope that my noble friend will consider withdrawing his amendment.

[Lord True]

My Lords, before I respond, will my noble friend comment on one thing? She said that it is not for her to ask a committee to sit on a certain day. The guidance from the JCSI to government departments states at paragraph 3:

“If, in exceptional circumstances, a Department wishes an affirmative instrument … later than the normal deadline to be considered at a particular meeting, a letter from the relevant Minister to the Chairman of the JCSI will be required setting out the reasons why expedited consideration is thought necessary and why the instrument was not laid sooner”.


Did the Government send such a letter to the chairman of the JCSI?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I understand that my noble friend has written to the JCSI, but I repeat that it is for that committee to decide when it sits and to decide its programme of business. As I said, we have given a preview of the SI to the committee. I trust its judgment and I fear that, no matter what the pushing, I am not going to dictate what that committee does.

[Lord True]

I am afraid that that means that the Government have refused to accept an open offer from this committee to all government departments for expedited procedures—an extraordinary decision in the case of one of the most significant statutory instruments ever to be laid before Parliament, whichever side of the argument you are on.

The logic of what we have heard from my noble friend, whom I greatly respect, is this. Tomorrow, your Lordships’ House will be asked to meet and start considering this statutory instrument. A few minutes later, somewhere in this House, the Joint Committee will start deliberating, as we have heard, on its significance and potential impact. Your Lordships will be invited to take a decision; the poor old Joint Committee will reach some conclusions and your Lordships and the other place will never be advised of them before the decision is made. This is an absurd position. In any sense, it cannot be right.

We are talking here of printing. We live in the 21st century. Are we really saying that a committee that deliberates tomorrow afternoon cannot print a report and have it before your Lordships’ House by Friday? It could be put on pieces of paper like those in my hand.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

I apologise for not having been present for all of this consideration. I have to tell my noble friend Lord True that the Select Committee on statutory instruments of your Lordships’ House has met and prepared a report that will be available to your Lordships tonight.

[Lord True]

I am grateful for the intervention from my noble friend. However, the position in our Standing Orders and constitutionally is that the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments—a Joint Committee of both Houses, not just your Lordships’ House—considers important affirmative instruments and presents a report. My noble friend’s committee’s report will be immensely valuable but it cannot have the authority of a Joint Committee, which will have authority and distinction in both Houses.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords—

[Lord True]

I have given way to the noble Lord before.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

I want to say something about the intervention we have just heard from the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne. He is chairman of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee of your Lordships’ House, which has to be distinguished from the JCSI. I thought it would be helpful to have that acknowledged.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord True]

I am so grateful; that was a procedural point from the noble Lord, not a political one.

This is a sensible, grown-up House; we do not need to deal with these things by Division. Is not the sensible thing for the usual channels to take this away and for my noble friend not to press her Motion, which creates a precedent for the future? If this type of Motion becomes normal, it will have a chilling effect on future Oppositions and Governments as time goes by.

The sensible thing would be for the usual channels, in discussion with the Joint Committee, to take this away, have some discussions, not press this measure and report to the House tomorrow, before we can lay a document. In fact, they can lay a document while the House is still sitting this evening, or let us know by making a Statement. Then, we can decide whether it is necessary to go ahead with the farce of considering this tomorrow, while the Joint Committee is meeting down the Corridor. We could still then take the business later tomorrow or on Thursday. I do not accept the argument about printing. Will my noble friend consider having consultations with the usual channels and Cross-Benchers?

I was going to make the point that the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, made. I am not a lawyer and I said I would not go into the merits of the statutory instrument. As a lay man, it seems to me astounding that it was not the date—that it must be open to challenge. The other thing is the potential effect of a charge on public funds which might arise from staying in the European Union, which the Joint Committee also looks at.

It would be safer for this House and the other place to have the benefit of a considered report to which representations can be made. I urge my noble friend to take it away, consider it in the usual channels with interested parties and bring it back later tonight or tomorrow. If she will do that, I will reflect on what she said and decide whether I wish to divide the House, which I would rather not do. It is not my intention to do so in any circumstances and is not conditional on what she says. Will she consider that proposal?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am afraid I cannot give my noble friend that assurance. We have discussed this through the usual channels. This is an important SI that we need to see through and I hope I have explained the reasons why. I acknowledge that these are unusual circumstances—I have accepted that and said so quite readily at the Dispatch Box—but for the sake of the country we need to look at and discuss this SI tomorrow, as the House of Commons will. I hope my noble friend will withdraw his amendment, but I am afraid I cannot accede to his request.

[Lord True]

My Lords, I regret to say I find that a highly unsatisfactory response and not in the spirit of co-operation across the House. But I see no point in dividing if my Front Bench and the Labour and Liberal Democrat Front Benches are not interested in debating with the benefit of the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. There is very little a mere Back-Bencher can do, so I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment to the Motion withdrawn.